In this episode, Professor Kevin Smith, author of The Jailer’s Reckoning, discusses his new book and the challenges of American mass incarceration. Then, Sherman Wells, the founder of U. N. T. A. M. E. D. , talks about his community work in Omaha, Nebraska.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:15 --> 00:01:20 The following program is hosted by the NBG podcast network.
00:01:20 --> 00:02:00 Music.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello, and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:12 And today, I've got two gentlemen on who just happen to be both from the state of Nebraska.
00:02:13 --> 00:02:19 And one is going to talk about his book that's coming out, and one is going
00:02:19 --> 00:02:25 to talk about the community work that he's doing in North Omaha, Nebraska.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:33 And so I hope that y'all will enjoy those conversations and learn something from them.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38 I do want to do a little housekeeping. So last week's episode,
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 we had a technical glitch.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:50 And so Aaron Shetterly's interview, the full interview was not heard.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:55 It was a good bit of it was heard. And then all of a sudden you started hearing
00:02:55 --> 00:02:57 like some buzzing or whatever.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:03 So I was able to put the full interview on Patreon.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:09 And if you want to go to the patron to hear the full interview,
00:03:10 --> 00:03:13 please do that. It won't cost you anything to do that.
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00:03:19 --> 00:03:21 then you could go ahead and join afterwards.
00:03:21 --> 00:03:28 It's only a dollar a month to sign up. So I would encourage y'all to do that
00:03:28 --> 00:03:31 if y'all want to hear the full interview with with Aaron Shitterly,
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 because, again, like I said, the book that he wrote, Mourningside,
00:03:34 --> 00:03:36 it's very powerful book.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:45 And the part that you missed was just as important as the part that you heard. Let me put it that way.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:50 So I apologize for that. And I can't promise that it won't happen again,
00:03:50 --> 00:03:53 but we're going to do our best to make sure that it doesn't.
00:03:53 --> 00:04:00 But, yeah, so with that, let's go ahead and get this show started.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 And as always, we started with a moment of news with Grace Jean.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:10 Music.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:16 Thanks, Eric. The Israeli Defense Forces confirmed they killed Hamas leader
00:04:16 --> 00:04:19 Yahya Sinwar in a recent Gaza offensive.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:22 A new Reuters-Ipsos poll shows Vice
00:04:22 --> 00:04:25 President Kamala Harris leading Donald Trump by
00:04:25 --> 00:04:31 three percentage points in a tightly contested race for the presidency The Arab-American
00:04:31 --> 00:04:36 Political Action Committee has chosen not to endorse either Vice President Harris
00:04:36 --> 00:04:42 or Donald Trump in the upcoming elections Georgia experienced record early voting
00:04:42 --> 00:04:44 turnout for the upcoming presidential election,
00:04:44 --> 00:04:51 with over 252 voters casting ballots on the first day A Georgia judge has
00:04:51 --> 00:04:55 temporarily blocked a new rule requiring poll workers to hand-count ballots
00:04:55 --> 00:04:57 in the upcoming election.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:02 The U.S. Department of Justice has sued Virginia and Alabama for violating federal
00:05:02 --> 00:05:07 laws by systemically removing voters within 90 days of an election.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:14 Nebraska Supreme Court upheld a law allowing felons who have completed their sentences to vote.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:20 The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Los Angeles has reached an $880 million settlement,
00:05:20 --> 00:05:26 with over 1 individuals who allege childhood sexual abuse by priests.
00:05:26 --> 00:05:32 North Carolina gubernatorial candidate Mark Robinson has filed a $50 million
00:05:32 --> 00:05:38 defamation lawsuit against CNN over a report claiming he made inflammatory comments.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 Civil rights advocates have condemned the violent arrest of Tyrone McAlpin,
00:05:44 --> 00:05:49 a deaf black man in Phoenix, Arizona, after body camera footage surfaced showing
00:05:49 --> 00:05:51 him being tasered and punched by police.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:57 Fairway Independent Mortgage Corporation has been penalized $1.9 million for
00:05:57 --> 00:06:04 alleged redlining practices in Birmingham, Alabama, and will provide $7 million in loan subsidies.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:10 The U.S. has warned Israel to improve humanitarian conditions in Gaza within
00:06:10 --> 00:06:13 a month or risk potential restrictions on military aid.
00:06:14 --> 00:06:19 And the U.S. Small Business Administration has paused new disaster loan offers
00:06:19 --> 00:06:24 due to depleted funds from Hurricane Helene. I am Grace Gee,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:33 Music.
00:06:33 --> 00:06:36 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:43 And now it's time for my guest, Kevin B. Smith.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:48 Kevin B. Smith has been studying and teaching state politics and policy for
00:06:48 --> 00:06:52 more than 20 years. He has authored or co-authored nine books,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:58 including Predisposed, Liberals, Conservatives, and the Biology of Political Differences.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:05 Prior to life and academia, he covered state and local politics as a newspaper reporter.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:08 Smith is the Leland and Dorothy H.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:12 Olson Chair of Political Science at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:20 His new book is The Jailer's Reckoning, How Mass Incarceration is Damaging America.
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:07:24 --> 00:07:29 on this podcast, Professor Kevin B. Smith.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:40 Music.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:45 All right. Professor Kevin Smith. How are you doing? So you're doing good.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:51 I am doing good. Thank you. Well, I'm honored to have you on and judging from
00:07:51 --> 00:07:55 your book, your answers are going to be pretty good.
00:07:55 --> 00:08:01 I mean, you know, I love somebody that has an encyclopedic vocabulary.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:07 It's like I was it was I was going back to my days of the SAT preparation.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:09 I was like going, oh, man, let me look this word up real quick.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:17 You know, it's one of the occupational hazards of being a professor is we do
00:08:17 --> 00:08:19 love our words. I have to admit it.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:25 Yeah, well, it's not anything to feel bad about.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:30 It's actually an incredible skill to be able to have that mastery of the language.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:36 So let me start off like I normally do, and I'm going to give you a quote.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:40 And your quote is african americans
00:08:40 --> 00:08:43 are more likely to have a prison record than
00:08:43 --> 00:08:49 be left-handed what does that quote mean to you i think what that quote means
00:08:49 --> 00:08:56 to me and i you know that is something that is directly taken from my book is
00:08:56 --> 00:09:02 that we have gone somewhere astray in our society And I mean,
00:09:02 --> 00:09:05 we can talk about the pros and cons of, you know,
00:09:05 --> 00:09:09 mass incarceration, and there are some arguments on the pro side.
00:09:09 --> 00:09:17 But when you have this sort of phenomenon, it's cost being born so exclusively
00:09:17 --> 00:09:18 by a single demographic.
00:09:19 --> 00:09:27 That has social, political, and economic consequences that ripple out into the
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 entire society, not just within the African-American community.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:37 Yeah, well, that quote means a lot to me because I'm African-American and I'm
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 also left-handed. So when I saw that, I said, oh, yeah.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:48 So now it makes me seem like I'm either an endangered species or a rare commodity. I don't know.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:53 But but, yeah, I saw that quote and I said, yeah, I got to ask the professor that one.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:58 Before we get into the book, though, a couple of things have happened in Nebraska,
00:09:59 --> 00:10:04 which is where you're based, that I felt that we need to talk about on the show.
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 So the first thing was a senator from
00:10:07 --> 00:10:12 South Carolina named Lindsey Graham shows up at the Nebraska State Senate and
00:10:12 --> 00:10:21 wants Nebraska to change its electoral college law by saying Nebraska pushing
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 for Nebraska winner take all.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:30 And I'm sure he was thinking, oh, yeah, we can make this happen because the
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 state Senate is majority Republican.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:37 I guess what he didn't anticipate was to have a state senator that understood
00:10:37 --> 00:10:44 historical significance and and decided to take a stand and say,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 no, I'm not supporting that. And so that effort died.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 Kind of talk about the uniqueness of Nebraska.
00:10:51 --> 00:10:57 As far as the Electoral College goes. And, you know, since you're a political
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 scientist, what do you even think about the Electoral College?
00:11:00 --> 00:11:06 Well, yeah, there's quite a bit to unpack there. But Nebraska is unique in two
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 different ways related to the Electoral College.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:14 First of all, it is one of only two states that divides its Electoral College votes.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:20 So in Nebraska, we have five Electoral College votes, and two are awarded on
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 the basis of the statewide popular vote,
00:11:23 --> 00:11:28 and then three are awarded individually on the basis of the popular vote within
00:11:28 --> 00:11:29 each congressional district.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 And we have one congressional district, the second congressional district,
00:11:34 --> 00:11:35 that is a competitive district.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:40 In other words, it could go Democrat or it could go Republican.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 And I believe it was, somebody will have to check me on this,
00:11:43 --> 00:11:48 but I think it was in 2008 that Obama actually won that electoral college vote.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:51 So, I mean, there is precedent for this happening.
00:11:52 --> 00:11:56 The second thing that's unique about Nebraska is it has a single-house,
00:11:56 --> 00:11:58 nonpartisan legislature.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:06 And there was an effort earlier in the year to shift Nebraska's electoral vote
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 allocation to winner-take-all.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 So whoever won the popular vote statewide would take all five electoral college votes.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:18 And that, I mean, I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb and saying it's
00:12:18 --> 00:12:22 going to be the Republican that wins the popular vote statewide.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:28 And the initial vote failed in the unicameral and didn't attract much support.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:33 And then, as you point out, Lindsey Graham, and he was joined by the governor of the state.
00:12:33 --> 00:12:40 And in fact, I think by the entire Nebraska congressional delegation signed on in support of,
00:12:40 --> 00:12:45 you know, the governor calling a special session with the specific purpose of
00:12:45 --> 00:12:48 changing the law to win a take all.
00:12:49 --> 00:12:53 And, you know, clearly the idea was we could get that we could save that electoral
00:12:53 --> 00:12:57 college vote for Donald Trump for the Republican nominee.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:07 The problem was that it was never clear that that was going to overcome a filibuster attempt.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:12 And even some Republican legislators and the legislature were.
00:13:13 --> 00:13:17 You know, weren't too enthusiastic about that idea.
00:13:17 --> 00:13:23 And then the timing of it wasn't really propitious either in the sense that,
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 you know, one of the perceptions that, that, that, that gave was that,
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 holy cow, we're really in a dogfight. We need that electoral vote.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 We need to change the, we need to change the rules now to, to try and save it.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 So, I mean, I'm not sure that this sort of like gave off a perception of strength
00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 rather than a perception of, of, of concern.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:50 And that effort, I mean, as you said, there was a state center or two who stood
00:13:50 --> 00:13:53 up and basically said, no, I'm going to fight this tooth and nail.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:57 And on the other side, there really wasn't enough enthusiastic support for it
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 to, you know, to go through.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 So I think that was a bit of a, you know, a damp squib.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:08 That wasn't something that was really going to happen from the get-go.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:11 And in terms of what I think of the Electoral College overall,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:17 I mean, you know, what I think is it's a really weird way to elect the chief
00:14:17 --> 00:14:20 executive of the most powerful country on the planet.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:25 You know, it's a historical artifact, you know, that the people at the Constitutional
00:14:25 --> 00:14:30 Convention couldn't quite agree on how to elect an executive.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:36 And they sort of like cobbled together this parliamentary doodad that kind of
00:14:36 --> 00:14:39 worked, but it's never worked the way they intended.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:43 But the bottom line is, is we're stuck with it until someone can get a constitutional
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 amendment passed that does away with it.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 So love it or hate it, this is what we got. Yeah.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:56 And I, you know, the historical thing about the Electoral College was similar
00:14:56 --> 00:15:01 to, you know, that it was basically tied in with the three fifths provision.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:10 It allowed those states that were smaller and that that had slavery to have a say so.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:16 As opposed to, you know, the states like New York.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:21 Well, everybody had slavery at that point, but the southern states tended to need it more.
00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 There was more labor intensive down there.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:32 So they came up with Electoral College to give them an equal say-so in that.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:41 And if you look at the current history, if it wasn't for the Electoral College,
00:15:42 --> 00:15:44 the Republicans would have won only one election.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:51 Yeah, I think that's correct. I think the Republican nominee for president has
00:15:51 --> 00:15:55 only won the popular election once since 1992, I think.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:59 I think that was 2004 with George W. Bush.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:03 Yeah, I think you're absolutely right on that. And that was his re-election.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10 So if he never would have even been elected if if if it was strictly on a popular vote but,
00:16:11 --> 00:16:19 i agree with you there was some kind of scenario where if you know as as there's
00:16:19 --> 00:16:25 a scenario now where things stand the way they are in nebraska which it looks like it's going to be,
00:16:26 --> 00:16:33 there is a possibility that Vice President Harris would win the election by
00:16:33 --> 00:16:36 one electoral vote based on that on that model.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:41 So I think I think we need to get rid of it. But that's like you said,
00:16:41 --> 00:16:42 that's going to be a long fight.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 Now, the other thing which leads into the book that you wrote.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 Is that Nebraska's Supreme Court.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:55 Looked at the challenge that the Secretary of State and the Attorney General
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 brought forward saying that a law that the State Senate passed,
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 They were saying it was unconstitutional. And the law basically said that if
00:17:04 --> 00:17:09 you served your time, once you have served your time, then you'll be eligible to vote again.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 And that's an issue that's near and dear to me, because when I was in the legislature
00:17:13 --> 00:17:17 in Mississippi, I was an advocate for that,
00:17:17 --> 00:17:22 as well as getting people to fill out the necessary paperwork so they could
00:17:22 --> 00:17:26 get registered to re-register the vote after they've served their time.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:33 Because the way we had to do it in Mississippi is that each individual has to have their own bill.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:37 It's not like we can lump everybody into one bill per session.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:43 It's like each individual person has to list what they were charged with and all that.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:48 And then the legislature, both houses would have to pass that.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:54 And I'm very fortunate that I was able to get three people in nine years,
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 their suffrage rights back.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:02 But now in Nebraska, the Supreme Court, it says, as soon as you get through
00:18:02 --> 00:18:04 with your sentence, as soon as you're released,
00:18:04 --> 00:18:10 then you then you're you're eligible to register to vote and basically charge
00:18:10 --> 00:18:15 the secretary of state to make sure that that happens like right now.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:20 Because I think the window is everybody, if you fall in that category,
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 you have to be registered by the 18th or the 25th, something like that.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:30 Yeah. I mean, the challenge that was made was kind of interesting because,
00:18:31 --> 00:18:35 you know, I'm not a constitutional lawyer, but certainly my impression was that
00:18:35 --> 00:18:40 the legal argument that was being made by the attorney general and the secretary of state.
00:18:40 --> 00:18:45 I mean, you know, the notion that this was outside the jurisdiction of the state
00:18:45 --> 00:18:50 legislature just, I mean, I didn't quite understand the logic of that.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 I mean, it's the state legislature that makes the law.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:59 This clearly seemed to be within their, you know, within their wheelhouse and authority to do.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:03 And, you know, Secretary of State and the Attorney General, their job is to
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 execute the law, not to decide the law.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 So I always thought, and again, I'm not a lawyer. Maybe there is a legitimate
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 argument there, but I couldn't quite see what it was.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:17 And the fact that the Supreme Court pretty firmly swatted those concerns away,
00:19:17 --> 00:19:24 you know, indicates that, you know, whatever the opponents of this law thought,
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 it really doesn't have any legal standing.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:30 That argument doesn't have any real legal standing in the state of Nebraska.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:38 And generally speaking, you know, reenfranchisement laws are popular with the public that,
00:19:39 --> 00:19:44 you know, this notion that if you served your time, you should be restored to
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 your basic citizenship rights.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:51 I mean, I think for most Americans, that's an issue of basic fairness.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:57 But, you know, as we sort of like transition into talking about the book is,
00:19:57 --> 00:20:01 you know, disenfranchisement runs into partisan politics.
00:20:01 --> 00:20:05 I mean, look at what happened in Florida. I mean, they effectively passed a
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 constitutional amendment saying, yeah, no more disenfranchisement.
00:20:08 --> 00:20:13 We're done with that. and the state government came back said well okay but
00:20:13 --> 00:20:17 in order to get the end to you know get your voting rights restored you've got
00:20:17 --> 00:20:19 to pay off all these court fees and whatnot.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:28 Essentially shifted disenfranchisement from de jure by law to de facto, just a fact of life.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:34 And I don't think this is casting aspersions.
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 I think this is a reasonable inference to take from the available evidence.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:42 And some officials in the Republican Party are concerned about re-enfranchisement
00:20:42 --> 00:20:50 because effectively what they see is a democratic constituency amongst the disenfranchised.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 And if they're re-enfranchised that puts them at an electoral disadvantage
00:20:53 --> 00:20:56 yeah yeah because
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 it was in florida it was like the santas
00:20:59 --> 00:21:03 came up with this election police
00:21:03 --> 00:21:06 or whatever and they were going around rounding
00:21:06 --> 00:21:09 up people and saying well you you committed voter fraud
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 and all this stuff so they're re-arresting people
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 who actually registered and voted who had
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 who had been formerly incarcerated and so yeah and
00:21:18 --> 00:21:22 then and then it ties back into the previous
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 discussion about the electoral college because now
00:21:25 --> 00:21:30 there's some political pundits that are saying well now that these people if
00:21:30 --> 00:21:36 these people get registered and vote in this election then that could make sure
00:21:36 --> 00:21:43 that that swing congressional district in nebraska you know goes in favor of harris,
00:21:44 --> 00:21:49 so it's kind of it's kind of interesting how that goes and that kind of ties in with my next question.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:55 Which and forgive me for not remembering the title the full title of the book
00:21:55 --> 00:22:00 but I think the previous book you wrote was called Predisposed right and the
00:22:00 --> 00:22:03 current book is The Jailer's Reckoning yeah The Jailer's Reckoning we're gonna
00:22:03 --> 00:22:10 get to that but there's a tie-in I picked up in between predisposed and the jailer's reckoning.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 And there was a book review of the previous book.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:18 It said conservatives seem to be more conscientious, believe in self-reliance,
00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 authority, hierarchy, and order, and favor traditional values.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 Conservatives favor black versus white categories and avoid ambiguity.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32 The left focuses on equality, tolerance, departure from tradition,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 sees levels of gray, and tolerates ambiguity.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 And in the book, The Jailer's Reckoning,
00:22:39 --> 00:22:47 the conclusion you came up with or you showed is that states that tend to vote
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 conservatively or have conservative majorities have a higher incarceration rate
00:22:52 --> 00:22:57 and liberal states tend to have a lower incarceration rate.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:01 So you see what I did in combining?
00:23:01 --> 00:23:07 Does that make sense when you were doing, putting the book together? Did that make sense?
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 Yeah, no, that made perfect sense. And you're absolutely right.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:13 I mean, holding all other things constant.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 You know, both the ideological leanings of the legislature and the ideological
00:23:19 --> 00:23:23 leanings of the electorate predict incarceration rates.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:28 And, you know, just as you said, you know, more conservative states tend to
00:23:28 --> 00:23:32 have a much more, hey, you know, you did the crime, you do the time sort of
00:23:32 --> 00:23:38 attitude, you know, full stop, period, end of sentence, no questions asked.
00:23:38 --> 00:23:43 And I'm exaggerating a little bit, but I mean, certainly compared to more liberal
00:23:43 --> 00:23:48 states where there's a little bit more nuance allowed into that,
00:23:48 --> 00:23:49 allowed into that conversation.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:56 Yeah. And so I'm in Georgia now and I cut my political teeth primarily in Mississippi.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 So, you know, those states would fall in that category.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:06 And Mississippi, when you look at it, when you look at the rate per 10 per
00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 100, whichever variable you want to use, Mississippi is going to be higher
00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 because it's only like 3 million people there in the whole state.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 But georgia numbers wise is always
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 like one of the top and my argument is
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 that it's in georgia's historical dna
00:24:23 --> 00:24:26 because the state was set up to be
00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 a penal colony james oglethorpe wanted
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33 georgia to be a debtor's prison so i just
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 you know i i always joke with georgia and
00:24:36 --> 00:24:39 there's a young lady on tiktok that always has this thing about
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 the georgia state patrol don't mess with the georgia state patrol so
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 i just always say georgia is always to me is always
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 going to be one of the states that
00:24:48 --> 00:24:52 have a higher incarceration rate than than than
00:24:52 --> 00:24:56 other states based on its the whole concept of georgia was that it was supposed
00:24:56 --> 00:25:03 to be a penal colony now it may not be a fair statement but you know i and that's
00:25:03 --> 00:25:10 just that's just me which which kind of leads to this why do you think that the United States,
00:25:10 --> 00:25:17 which is supposed to be this beacon of freedom and people from all over the world come.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:24 We're the only country that every nation in the world is represented in as far as its population.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:30 Why do you think that we are the country that incarcerates more people than other countries?
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, and I think I would put A little
00:25:35 --> 00:25:41 bit of a different spin on that, Eric, in the sense that it's not the nation. It's not the country.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 There is huge variation amongst states like you were talking about Georgia,
00:25:46 --> 00:25:51 which is like a lot of southern states has a very high incarceration rate. But.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:58 If you look at incarceration rates by state, I mean, they basically range from
00:25:58 --> 00:26:03 the equivalent of China and Rwanda to something that is not that different from France.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:09 And sort of like what I was fascinated by was what explains that,
00:26:09 --> 00:26:12 that, that variation because you're a hundred percent correct.
00:26:12 --> 00:26:17 And that if you take the United States as a whole, there's roughly give or take
00:26:17 --> 00:26:22 10 or 12 million people sitting behind bars across the globe right now.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:26 2 million of them are in the United States.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:31 And that 2 million are very unevenly distributed across the states,
00:26:31 --> 00:26:33 even on a per capita basis.
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 You know, you take places like Maine and Massachusetts in terms of incarceration
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 rates, they look very different from Texas and Mississippi.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:47 And, you know, and one of the key core things that I'm trying to investigate
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 in this book is what explains that differences. And, you know,
00:26:51 --> 00:26:56 I've got a typical academic answer to that in the sense that I don't think it's one thing.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:01 I mean, there's sort of like demographic differences. There are certainly political
00:27:01 --> 00:27:03 and ideological differences.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:10 But I also would not disagree with the basic premise that you're making there,
00:27:10 --> 00:27:14 that there's sort of like historical path dependence.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:20 I mean, one of the things I read, this fascinating report by de Tocqueville,
00:27:20 --> 00:27:25 the guy who wrote on democracy, you know, way back in the early part of the 19th century.
00:27:25 --> 00:27:30 He also, the reason he was in the country was not to write that book.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:36 He was an agent of the French government being sent to do a report on prisons,
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 him and a guy called Gustave de Maubon.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:44 And one of the things that struck me in reading that was that,
00:27:44 --> 00:27:47 you know, they were very interested in sort of like, you know,
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 what the Quakers were experimenting with in Pennsylvania.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:55 And they got down to Louisiana and they basically said, we can't even describe this.
00:27:55 --> 00:27:59 You know, what's going on in these prisons? This is, you know,
00:28:00 --> 00:28:05 really shocking and inhumane what's going on down here.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 And I think, you know, history does matter. And I mean, I'm not saying that,
00:28:09 --> 00:28:13 you know, conditions are as bad as they have been historically.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:21 But certainly, you know, if you go back to people like de Tocqueville or even
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 Charles Dickens, he toured a lot of prisons in the United States, too.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:31 And, you know, one of their takeaways was things are a lot harsher in the southern
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 states. And I think that I think that remains true today to a certain to a certain extent.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:42 And, you know, some of that I think probably is to do with, you know,
00:28:42 --> 00:28:44 it's a historical legacy in some ways.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 Yeah. I mean, some of the more legendary prisons in the United States,
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 you know, you talk about Angola in Louisiana or Parchment in Mississippi.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:57 Alabama, which are chain gangs and all that kind of stuff.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:03 You know, that when people went when when Eddie Murphy and Morton Lawrence did
00:29:03 --> 00:29:06 that movie Life, everybody knew all that's Mississippi.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 That's the South. You have to guess. You know what I'm saying?
00:29:10 --> 00:29:11 That wasn't New York or Chicago.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:17 That was that was in the South, you know, so that that that that historical
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 reference, even to a non-academic person and somebody is not an expert in it.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 You know, just real life experience always makes that equation.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 But there are one of the things that one of
00:29:28 --> 00:29:31 the things you know just to follow up on the point that you're making and
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 i'm not a historian so this is i'm taking this all
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 from other people's work but one of the things that i
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 was that i didn't know or at
00:29:40 --> 00:29:43 least not know in depth as post-civil war
00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 you know after slavery ended you know
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 there were some southern states because you
00:29:49 --> 00:29:53 know the 13th amendment you know you outlaw
00:29:53 --> 00:29:56 slavery except in cases of penal servitude
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 right and some southern in some
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 southern states there were sort of like you know recently freed
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05 slaves being arrested and then
00:30:05 --> 00:30:09 rented out to plantation owners and
00:30:09 --> 00:30:12 i mean that is you know that that
00:30:12 --> 00:30:18 is not a particularly enlightening history and in history to have and i think
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 you can make a defense argument that there are echoes of that that are reflected
00:30:22 --> 00:30:29 in this huge variation that we have in incarceration rates across different states.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:34 Right. And the one distinction you make in the book, too, is that the United
00:30:34 --> 00:30:38 States, as compared to other countries, is not one system.
00:30:38 --> 00:30:44 So you have a federal system, and then you basically have 50 other state systems.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:52 And that kind of leads to why Our incarceration Incarceration rate is different
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 Than other countries Because most countries are like one,
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 Unified system. Everybody follows the same laws.
00:31:00 --> 00:31:05 They all have the same penalties, regardless of what part of the country they're in.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:11 There's one particular thing, you know, before time runs out that there's one individual.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:16 Now, you know, going back and reading like your introduction and all that,
00:31:16 --> 00:31:19 and you thank your research assistants and you said that this has been a work
00:31:19 --> 00:31:25 and in progress for a while. But I tend to believe there's this one individual named Larry Derry.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:33 Yeah. That kind of got your, your, your blood going to really finish this book up.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:41 Talk, talk about Larry Derry's and why he is the epitome of what is wrong or
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 what could be improved in,
00:31:44 --> 00:31:50 in, in the incarceration system in America and why going back to your.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:55 Title why is it a reckoning that is
00:31:55 --> 00:31:58 about to happen yeah so larry dairies
00:31:58 --> 00:32:01 i read about this purely by chance when
00:32:01 --> 00:32:05 it actually happened i read about it in a newspaper story
00:32:05 --> 00:32:09 and then i followed up on that because i initially i
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 thought there has to be some sort of typographical error
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 here or something because this this doesn't make any
00:32:15 --> 00:32:17 this doesn't make any sense larry dairies was
00:32:17 --> 00:32:21 a guy who walked into a whole foods in austin texas and
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 lifted a tuna fish sandwich he stole
00:32:25 --> 00:32:34 the tuna fish sandwich and he got 70 years seven zero no one seven 70 years
00:32:34 --> 00:32:39 and the reason that he got 70 years was it was his third strike in texas is
00:32:39 --> 00:32:43 a three strikes state and i sort of like you know Well, if you look at Larry
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 Derry's background, I mean.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 You know, he had had kind of, kind of a tough background.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:53 I mean, he had served some time for other criminal charges, including,
00:32:53 --> 00:32:57 I think, an assault charge and had had some problems with drugs and had had
00:32:57 --> 00:32:58 some mental health problems.
00:32:59 --> 00:33:03 I mean, this wasn't a, I mean, I don't get the impression that he's some sort
00:33:03 --> 00:33:05 of like criminal mastermind or something.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:10 I mean, he's just a guy who's kind of had, you know, a tough go of it and,
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 and, and life. And I was like 70 years, 70 years.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:21 So basically he has lost any opportunity he has to have, you know,
00:33:21 --> 00:33:26 a functioning life as a productive contributing citizen. That's gone.
00:33:26 --> 00:33:30 And then I tried to get, look at it from the taxpayer's side.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:39 And what is the lowest defensible estimate that it costs to keep Larry Dairies in jail?
00:33:40 --> 00:33:43 And, you know, I made a couple of assumptions, like if we take the lowest estimate
00:33:43 --> 00:33:49 of, you know, what Texas pays to keep somebody locked up, it's around $22,
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 $23, or it was back then.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:58 And if he gets out at his earliest parole date, it's going to cost the taxpayers
00:33:58 --> 00:34:01 of the state of Texas a million dollars.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:05 And I assure you that's an extremely conservative estimate.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 And this is what I, in the book, I actually call it the tuna fish sandwich test.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 It's like, is a million, is it worth a
00:34:14 --> 00:34:17 million dollars to keep us safe from
00:34:17 --> 00:34:20 lunch counter larceny and if
00:34:20 --> 00:34:23 it's not worth a million dollars maybe we should you know
00:34:23 --> 00:34:28 look at alternatives now if you're talking about violent crime or things like
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 that i mean i think incarceration i mean you know isolating people who are committing
00:34:33 --> 00:34:37 violent acts of social predation yeah i mean there's a reasonable argument to
00:34:37 --> 00:34:42 keep those isolated and behind bars but is you know are we.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:46 Not just the the people in prison but we who
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 are we being affected by this and
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 the short answer is absolutely yes and this
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55 is what i mean by a reckoning it's not just the people
00:34:55 --> 00:35:01 who get locked up or paying we're paying we're paying through our taxes mass
00:35:01 --> 00:35:07 incarceration is such a large phenomena it essentially serves as sort of like
00:35:07 --> 00:35:13 under regulated or completely unregulated labor market influencer.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:16 It constrains so much economic opportunity.
00:35:16 --> 00:35:20 And that actually has a macroeconomic effect at the state level.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:23 It's hurting states' economies, in other words.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:29 And it's even, and this is where I probably say the most controversial of things
00:35:29 --> 00:35:34 in the book, it's probably even influencing the outcome of elections.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:38 Because to look back to our earlier a conversation about disenfranchisement,
00:35:39 --> 00:35:44 these numbers are so large now, they probably played a role in determining the
00:35:44 --> 00:35:46 outcome of presidential elections.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:54 I would argue certainly in 2000, when George Bush wins by 530 something votes
00:35:54 --> 00:36:00 in Florida, and that's the difference between being in the White House and not, you take away felony.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:04 Disenfranchisement, and I'm pretty positive we'd have a president, Al Gore.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:09 So, you know, from everything from the amount of money the state government
00:36:09 --> 00:36:16 is taking out of our pocketbooks, to how successful our regional economies are,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:22 to who ends up holding the most powerful office in the nation and indeed on the planet,
00:36:22 --> 00:36:25 you know, that's a reckoning that we've all got to face.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:28 And that's basically where the title is coming from.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:32 And I don't think people, you know, a lot of people talk about mass incarceration,
00:36:32 --> 00:36:35 but I don't think enough people really
00:36:35 --> 00:36:40 talk about and think through the consequences of mass incarceration.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:45 This is a 40-year social experiment, unprecedented in history,
00:36:45 --> 00:36:46 that we've been going through.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:53 And I don't think we've really come to grips with what it's done for us or what it's done to us.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:58 And what it's done to us, you know, spoiler alert, are not very good things.
00:36:58 --> 00:37:04 Yeah. And one of the things that you talk about, those consequences that people don't think about,
00:37:05 --> 00:37:13 We always talk about veterans when they come back from war and we've got a Department
00:37:13 --> 00:37:17 of Veterans Affairs and we try to take care of our veterans.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:22 But I would argue, without any statistical research, I would argue that the
00:37:22 --> 00:37:26 second biggest group behind veterans, if not a bigger group than veterans,
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 is those who are formerly incarcerated.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:35 And, you know, there is a reckoning in the sense that, you know,
00:37:35 --> 00:37:41 here are citizens that have served their time and are trying to,
00:37:41 --> 00:37:44 we tell them, do the right thing when you get out.
00:37:44 --> 00:37:50 But there's hardly any support system, especially in these southern states,
00:37:50 --> 00:37:55 to get these people back and to be productive in society.
00:37:56 --> 00:38:00 Real quick, what's your take on that? Yeah, I think that's, I mean,
00:38:01 --> 00:38:07 I think that's a fairly accurate statement, at least based on the research that I dug into.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:11 I mean, there are some people who were released from jail who are on parole
00:38:11 --> 00:38:14 and they, you know, as a condition of their release, they have to check in with
00:38:14 --> 00:38:17 their parole officer, but that requires transportation.
00:38:18 --> 00:38:23 And they don't have a car, they don't have the resources to even take public transportation.
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 And you know they're really scrambling just
00:38:26 --> 00:38:29 to meet the terms of of their of of
00:38:29 --> 00:38:35 their parole and you know you know there's research that suggests even if things
00:38:35 --> 00:38:41 go smoothly once you've been released you're probably looking at a hit of around
00:38:41 --> 00:38:47 30 percent off of your lifetime income because if you've served a jail term
00:38:47 --> 00:38:49 and especially what i'm looking at which is,
00:38:50 --> 00:38:54 you know people who serve terms and state penitenters
00:38:54 --> 00:38:57 which means they've been convicted of a felony if you
00:38:57 --> 00:39:00 have a felony that's a line on your cv that
00:39:00 --> 00:39:03 severely constricts your social economic
00:39:03 --> 00:39:07 and and political opportunities and i
00:39:07 --> 00:39:11 i mean i think this is and i talk about this in the book i think this is one
00:39:11 --> 00:39:15 of the reasons why we have such high recidivism rates and some states have astonishingly
00:39:15 --> 00:39:25 high recidivism rates is because the options get so constrained once you're out that, you know,
00:39:25 --> 00:39:31 going back to extra legal means of supporting yourself is, you know,
00:39:31 --> 00:39:35 I don't want to say an easy option, but it's certainly a more available option
00:39:35 --> 00:39:39 than some of the other options that are not made available to you out there.
00:39:40 --> 00:39:42 Yeah. So look.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:49 We got to close it, but I just want to tell people this is not a long book to
00:39:49 --> 00:39:53 read, but it is very, very packed.
00:39:53 --> 00:39:58 It's kind of what's the term I want to power packed, even though it's not a
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00 long book, but there's so much good information.
00:40:00 --> 00:40:08 And you even go out and say that, you know, it may not weigh your opinion one
00:40:08 --> 00:40:10 way or the other, but at least you'll have the fact.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:15 I'm paraphrasing, of course, because you're much more articulate than I am in that sense.
00:40:15 --> 00:40:21 But I want people to get this book and read it because this is a major,
00:40:21 --> 00:40:26 major discussion, maybe not at the presidential election level,
00:40:26 --> 00:40:31 but definitely at the local level, at your state level.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:35 This is something that really, really needs to be discussed and the citizens
00:40:35 --> 00:40:41 need to be informed. So how can people get the Jailer's Reckoning and how can
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43 people get in touch with you to have further discussions?
00:40:44 --> 00:40:48 You can get the Jailer's Reckoning through, you know, the usual places.
00:40:48 --> 00:40:51 You can get it on Amazon.com. It's available for pre-order.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 Same with Barnes and Noble, same with Powell's.com.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 It'll be released on November 5th and it is a trade book.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:04 So you should be able to find it in independent bookstores in your local BNN.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:10 And if you want more information, I do have a website, and that is just kevinbsmith.com.
00:41:11 --> 00:41:16 Just K-E-V-I-N-B-S-M-I-T-H dot com.
00:41:16 --> 00:41:22 And that's got, you know, you can even read a sample of the book on the website.
00:41:22 --> 00:41:27 And I appreciate what you said about the book, Eric, and I do want to assure
00:41:27 --> 00:41:31 your listeners, this is not a, it's not a book written for academics.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:37 What I'm trying to connect with is a general audience. It's not a big doorstop poem.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:42 It is, you know, I've tried to write it in a way that, you know,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:47 it can connect with people who are just interested and curious about the issue.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:50 Yeah, and you do a good job with that, Professor.
00:41:51 --> 00:41:55 So I thank you. So, look, ladies and gentlemen, this has been Professor Kevin
00:41:55 --> 00:42:00 Smith, and he has written this incredible book called The Jailer's Reckoning.
00:42:00 --> 00:42:05 Pre-order it if you can. As soon as they hit the bookstores, go get it.
00:42:05 --> 00:42:09 And, Professor, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
00:42:09 --> 00:42:10 I greatly appreciate it.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:14 Oh, thank you. I've really enjoyed that conversation, Eric. All right,
00:42:14 --> 00:42:16 guys, and we're going to catch you all on the other side.
00:42:17 --> 00:42:36 Music.
00:42:36 --> 00:42:44 All right. And we are back. So now it's time for my next guest, who is Sherman Wells.
00:42:45 --> 00:42:49 Sherman Wells was born and raised in the birthplace of Malcolm X,
00:42:49 --> 00:42:51 which is Omaha, Nebraska.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:58 He is the father of four and he has been a devoted husband for 22 years.
00:42:58 --> 00:43:08 He is the founder of Untamed, and that's U.N.T.A.M.E.D.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:17 He describes himself as a God-guided and God-provided man that's here to help mankind.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:21 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:43:21 --> 00:43:25 on this podcast, Sherman Wells.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:36 We'll see you next time.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:36 Music.
00:43:36 --> 00:43:42 All right Sherman Wells how you doing brother you doing good I'm doing fantastic
00:43:42 --> 00:43:46 brother how about you I'm doing lovely man I am I'm really really glad to have
00:43:46 --> 00:43:49 you on I thought it was funny,
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52 when I asked you to come on the podcast you was like little old
00:43:52 --> 00:43:55 me what you want to talk the
00:43:55 --> 00:43:58 little old me about but it seems like
00:43:58 --> 00:44:01 you got a lot going on in omaha especially in
00:44:01 --> 00:44:06 the area of north omaha nebraska and so i wanted to uplift what you're doing
00:44:06 --> 00:44:11 and and get you to talk about some things so before we get started what i like
00:44:11 --> 00:44:17 to do is kind of a little ice breaker thing okay so i throw a quote at the guest
00:44:17 --> 00:44:21 and then i want want you to respond so this is your quote.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:24 The worst part of being a black man in
00:44:24 --> 00:44:27 america is these damn people try and
00:44:27 --> 00:44:30 treat you like a black man in america until you
00:44:30 --> 00:44:34 show that you are an african king living in
00:44:34 --> 00:44:37 america what does that mean to you that means
00:44:37 --> 00:44:40 to me that yeah like you said being a black man in
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43 america the worst part is being a black man in america because they have
00:44:43 --> 00:44:46 a stipulation on what a black man is supposed to be in America
00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 and so we don't fall into
00:44:49 --> 00:44:51 the stipulation of what they expect so that makes us
00:44:51 --> 00:44:55 unpredictable when you realize you're a black king and so
00:44:55 --> 00:44:57 yeah I am a
00:44:57 --> 00:45:01 brother in America but I don't fall into the stipulation with
00:45:01 --> 00:45:03 the what they programmed us to be as far
00:45:03 --> 00:45:06 as the black man in America now I lived it
00:45:06 --> 00:45:09 before I did fall into it in the beginning but I
00:45:09 --> 00:45:12 realized my power was greater than the stigmatism that
00:45:12 --> 00:45:16 they put on us to be the black man in america yeah and
00:45:16 --> 00:45:21 and i'm sure when we get into the work that you're doing we'll we'll get into
00:45:21 --> 00:45:26 that a little more but i wanted to deal with a couple of issues that's impacting
00:45:26 --> 00:45:32 your state yes sir so the first one is lindsey graham showed up the senator
00:45:32 --> 00:45:35 of south carolina showed up and tried to get.
00:45:36 --> 00:45:41 Your state Senate to change the way they count their electoral votes right now.
00:45:42 --> 00:45:47 Each congressional district is not winner take all each congressional district
00:45:47 --> 00:45:51 can, can determine who won that congressional district and vote.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:58 And the way the scenario is now is that from the past,
00:45:58 --> 00:46:03 one congressional district, I think it's the second congressional district in
00:46:03 --> 00:46:06 Nebraska that the second tends to go. You said that's us.
00:46:07 --> 00:46:11 The second tends to go Democratic more than normal and the rest of the state goes Republican.
00:46:12 --> 00:46:18 And so there is some kind of model that's out there that says that Vice President
00:46:18 --> 00:46:23 Harris could win the election based on that one electoral vote in Nebraska,
00:46:23 --> 00:46:29 which is why they sent Lindsey Graham to try to convince the Republican majority
00:46:29 --> 00:46:32 there to to go a winner take all.
00:46:32 --> 00:46:37 But it was one or two state senators that were Republicans like,
00:46:37 --> 00:46:38 yeah, no, we're not going for that.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:42 Talk, talk to me about that and what the impact is there in Nebraska.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:47 Uh, so I think it's important in every presidential election is when they bring
00:46:47 --> 00:46:52 it up and try to highlight us here, because like you said, the rest of Nebraska
00:46:52 --> 00:46:56 is all red. And then we got our district always go to.
00:46:56 --> 00:47:01 And so with us in Maine, there's this, the two electoral college thing.
00:47:01 --> 00:47:03 And so I think it's important because
00:47:03 --> 00:47:08 we don't all like North Omaha is the birthplace of Malcolm X for one.
00:47:08 --> 00:47:12 And so we, we have a, we tend to look at things a different way.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:17 And so it kind of backfired on them to have us all junked into one city.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:22 And then everybody else outside of Omaha, there's really not too many black people.
00:47:22 --> 00:47:26 So that's how that, you know, was established. And now they want to take it
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 away because they want to do the winner take all.
00:47:29 --> 00:47:33 But I think it's important for us to be able to keep our voice and keep our
00:47:33 --> 00:47:38 own vote on what we want based off the rest of Nebraska, because we are very
00:47:38 --> 00:47:41 segregated when it comes to Nebraska, the way it's split up.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:45 And North Omaha is the majority is where you're going to find the black people.
00:47:45 --> 00:47:51 So, yeah, it didn't work. We had one Republican senator that held his ground
00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 and didn't fold to the rest, which he used to be a Democrat,
00:47:54 --> 00:47:56 and he jumped to the other side.
00:47:56 --> 00:48:01 But he still thought it was important for our district to be able to have its own voice.
00:48:01 --> 00:48:05 So he stuck with the people, stuck to his guns, even though he was getting all the.
00:48:06 --> 00:48:10 Rhetoric thrown at him about him being a traitor and Donald Trump and everybody
00:48:10 --> 00:48:11 else coming for his neck.
00:48:11 --> 00:48:15 He still held his ground because he know he got to see us if we come to Lincoln.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:16 He ain't that far away, brother.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:23 So, yeah, we'll show up in buses if we have to to make sure our voices are heard.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:28 And so he knew that and he didn't flip flop on us again. So that was a good thing.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:32 Yeah. And I noticed if they had done it,
00:48:32 --> 00:48:35 it had to have been a special session called and
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 trying to do this within the window of the
00:48:38 --> 00:48:41 you know the current election that that
00:48:41 --> 00:48:45 would have that would have been a bad look all the way around do
00:48:45 --> 00:48:52 you feel that we need to have an electoral college or you know or do we do we
00:48:52 --> 00:48:58 need to look at trying to get a popular vote for president you know i think
00:48:58 --> 00:49:03 the popular vote would be good but since it's set up the way it is you know,
00:49:03 --> 00:49:05 and that's how these people do it. If they vote, it's their thing.
00:49:06 --> 00:49:09 So, you know, I'm a registered independent, so I don't have a side.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:15 And so, yeah, I think the Electoral College, the way they're doing it now, I think it's okay.
00:49:15 --> 00:49:19 Popular vote would be good. I mean, I guess if you're looking at it from a standpoint
00:49:19 --> 00:49:24 of the most of the time, the popular vote is not the person who wins the election.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:28 So, you know, the Electoral College is kind of a funny thing,
00:49:29 --> 00:49:32 but But I think it's either way for me, you know,
00:49:32 --> 00:49:39 long as we get to have our own here in Omaha and cast our electoral college
00:49:39 --> 00:49:41 vote the way we want, I think it's fine. OK.
00:49:42 --> 00:49:48 All right. So now the Nebraska Supreme Court has stepped in because there was
00:49:48 --> 00:49:52 a law passed by the state Senate that would allow people who were formerly incarcerated
00:49:52 --> 00:49:55 to be able to vote once they're.
00:49:56 --> 00:50:01 Time has been served. And that's an issue that's kind of special to me because
00:50:01 --> 00:50:03 when I was in the legislature in Mississippi,
00:50:03 --> 00:50:10 there was a process where if you were formerly incarcerated and you wanted to
00:50:10 --> 00:50:12 get your right to vote back,
00:50:12 --> 00:50:16 there are like eight offenses that you lose your right to vote.
00:50:16 --> 00:50:21 And we had an attorney general that said it's actually 22, but the Constitution
00:50:21 --> 00:50:24 said whatever. So it's eight constitutional offenses.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28 And so we would literally have to
00:50:28 --> 00:50:32 introduce a bill with your name on it and and
00:50:32 --> 00:50:35 and your charges and then we would have to get that bill
00:50:35 --> 00:50:39 passed by the majorities of both the house and the senate and signed by the
00:50:39 --> 00:50:45 governor for you to get your voting rights back and i was very fortunate in
00:50:45 --> 00:50:49 nine years that i was there that i got three people to get their rights back
00:50:49 --> 00:50:53 and you know so So I know that that's a major,
00:50:53 --> 00:50:58 major hurdle in Nebraska for people to be for the Supreme Court to make that
00:50:58 --> 00:51:04 decision and allow people once they serve their time to get their voting rights back.
00:51:04 --> 00:51:09 Talk to me about the impact and what the immediate challenge is for this particular
00:51:09 --> 00:51:11 election with this happening.
00:51:11 --> 00:51:15 Yeah so with this particular election already
00:51:15 --> 00:51:18 we were facing the id thing where
00:51:18 --> 00:51:21 they required everybody to have an id which is
00:51:21 --> 00:51:26 more voter suppression so then they our senator came up with this thing where
00:51:26 --> 00:51:30 you can get a voting id so even if you couldn't get you know your driver's license
00:51:30 --> 00:51:34 or a nebraska state id you get a voter id we heard on that right so it's always
00:51:34 --> 00:51:39 this voter suppression thing so then it was oh even though they said the felons
00:51:39 --> 00:51:41 can vote we here in Nebraska.
00:51:41 --> 00:51:43 We don't agree with that, so we're going to go against that.
00:51:43 --> 00:51:47 And then the Supreme Court had to step in and say, hey, you don't have a right
00:51:47 --> 00:51:50 to go against something that was passed in the law. So.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:57 Now that they've made it possible, the next hurdle is everybody's been waiting
00:51:57 --> 00:52:00 to get registered because they didn't know if they could.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:03 So now our hurdle is to hurry up and get everybody registered before the deadline.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:09 So here the NAACP is pushing for the voter registration date to be pushed back
00:52:09 --> 00:52:11 to give those people time to register.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:15 Because it's just so many hurdles and games being played to suppress the vote.
00:52:16 --> 00:52:20 You wanted to make it all voter take all, you know, and then this ID.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:23 Then this and now we up against the
00:52:23 --> 00:52:26 time limit of people getting registered to vote so now but
00:52:26 --> 00:52:29 with each hurdle as we work together as a unit we
00:52:29 --> 00:52:32 jumping them you know and that's what we do if you ever seen
00:52:32 --> 00:52:35 a black person run and do the hurdles we clearing them
00:52:35 --> 00:52:38 hurdles right because right because
00:52:38 --> 00:52:42 it was one deadline was set for the 18th yeah
00:52:42 --> 00:52:45 and then and then the next deadline i think
00:52:45 --> 00:52:49 the 18th was like if you wanted to vote absentee or something and
00:52:49 --> 00:52:52 then the the 25th of october
00:52:52 --> 00:52:55 is the deadline for everybody so y'all are
00:52:55 --> 00:52:59 trying to get it pushed back even further than the 25th yes
00:52:59 --> 00:53:02 sir and that was just done today i mean
00:53:02 --> 00:53:05 coordination with the naacp they sent me a message and
00:53:05 --> 00:53:08 asked me could i put it out on my platform that that's what we're
00:53:08 --> 00:53:11 working to do so all right well well good luck
00:53:11 --> 00:53:15 in that you know i'm sure that well i
00:53:15 --> 00:53:18 mean the secretary of state was the one who was challenging it
00:53:18 --> 00:53:20 and the attorney general so you know.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:23 I did and the court pretty much told them you have to
00:53:23 --> 00:53:26 do this so you know i'm sure they'll try
00:53:26 --> 00:53:29 to accommodate hopefully some with you know
00:53:29 --> 00:53:32 you in the respective counties because you've got like
00:53:32 --> 00:53:35 how many counties you have Nebraska like 90 something I
00:53:35 --> 00:53:38 think it's 90 90 exactly maybe
00:53:38 --> 00:53:41 92 I think okay yeah that's that's
00:53:41 --> 00:53:44 a lot and not as many as Georgia but more than Mississippi because
00:53:44 --> 00:53:52 Mississippi has 82 and Georgia's got 159 so you know it's like hopefully in
00:53:52 --> 00:53:57 those those counties especially in the counties that comprise the second district
00:53:57 --> 00:54:02 that folks will be able to get registered and
00:54:03 --> 00:54:05 they'll, they'll have some grace with that.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:11 If not, yeah, if not, I assume that y'all are going to mobilize people and get
00:54:11 --> 00:54:13 them registered by the 25th. If you can't get to it.
00:54:14 --> 00:54:18 Yes, sir. All right. So talk about, since we're talking about mobilization,
00:54:19 --> 00:54:26 talk about untamed, what is untamed and why did you choose that name for the organization?
00:54:26 --> 00:54:32 Hey man, untamed is actually, it means, Let me see if I can step to the side.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:37 A unified nation taking action, mentally erasing deception.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:42 So that's what untamed means. And that unified nation that takes the action
00:54:42 --> 00:54:46 mentally, erasing the deception mentally, when you talk about the thought process,
00:54:46 --> 00:54:49 kind of with the question you asked about being a black man in America.
00:54:49 --> 00:54:53 We have been mentally brainwashed to believe that we can't work with each other.
00:54:53 --> 00:54:57 We've been mentally brainwashed to believe that when I see another brother,
00:54:57 --> 00:54:59 I'm supposed to mug him and we instantly enemies.
00:54:59 --> 00:55:02 We have to erase that deception that we can work
00:55:02 --> 00:55:05 together we are not enemies and we not
00:55:05 --> 00:55:08 the black men that they the system say we are however
00:55:08 --> 00:55:12 we are the creators and kings of the state you know of the world so that's what
00:55:12 --> 00:55:17 untamed is it's a lifestyle and and based off having a unified nation with the
00:55:17 --> 00:55:21 nation we also wrote a pledge just a melanated people pledge and i'll share
00:55:21 --> 00:55:25 that with you when when i i'll send it to you so you can take a look at it it's
00:55:25 --> 00:55:27 basically just a pledge to us,
00:55:27 --> 00:55:31 a pledge to ourselves that we are, you know, pledging that we're going to take
00:55:31 --> 00:55:33 care of our health, our children,
00:55:34 --> 00:55:37 our, you know, protect the queens, uplift the kings. That's part of the pledge.
00:55:38 --> 00:55:42 And so a nation has to have a pledge. And so and also in that nation,
00:55:42 --> 00:55:46 we have to mentally regain our thoughts and our thought process and the way
00:55:46 --> 00:55:51 we look at each other and uplifting our economic growth, education, all that stuff, man.
00:55:51 --> 00:55:57 And being able to police ourselves and hold ourselves accountable for when we
00:55:57 --> 00:56:02 see people that's falling into the black stigmatism of what America has.
00:56:02 --> 00:56:03 And we can say, hey, man, that's that's not you.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:07 So it's a lifestyle. It's a family promoted. The nucleus family.
00:56:08 --> 00:56:11 We do believe in that. And yeah, man, it's just a beautiful thing.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:15 And so when we go to different states, that's what we're promoting,
00:56:15 --> 00:56:21 the untamed lifestyle. So like you said, as a lifestyle, it's not necessarily an organization.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:27 It's really a concept of of how we as black people should treat each other.
00:56:28 --> 00:56:31 Absolutely. And it was started by me, my wife and my daughter.
00:56:32 --> 00:56:36 So the foundation is family, you know, and I have two, three other sons that
00:56:36 --> 00:56:38 also participate, but they have families.
00:56:39 --> 00:56:42 My daughter is still at home, even though she's 24, she's still at home.
00:56:42 --> 00:56:46 And so we ain't resting her out, but she has been a pivotal part of Untamed
00:56:46 --> 00:56:51 because she helps with us when we are talking to the young people to understand
00:56:51 --> 00:56:54 that, you know, she's a young black woman.
00:56:54 --> 00:56:56 She don't have to be what the they stigmatize the
00:56:56 --> 00:57:00 black women to be in this country so yeah so
00:57:00 --> 00:57:04 talk so let me ask you this question right because
00:57:04 --> 00:57:07 one of the things i've noticed
00:57:07 --> 00:57:10 in social media and especially it started around
00:57:10 --> 00:57:15 this conversation about reparations right that there
00:57:15 --> 00:57:20 are a group of black people who are anti-immigrant
00:57:20 --> 00:57:23 and and they specifically do not
00:57:23 --> 00:57:28 like immigrants from africa and and
00:57:28 --> 00:57:35 there are some african immigrants that are on social media that that uh criticize
00:57:35 --> 00:57:43 african americans or black americans however you want to say you know as far as i guess we're not.
00:57:44 --> 00:57:47 I don't know what the term is it's it's like we're
00:57:47 --> 00:57:50 not we're not as sophisticated as they are or
00:57:50 --> 00:57:53 whatever the case may be when you see that how
00:57:53 --> 00:57:56 does that make you feel and what is and and
00:57:56 --> 00:58:02 how does that does that does it inspire you to continue to do what you're doing
00:58:02 --> 00:58:07 with with untamed or just talk about your reaction when you when you see that
00:58:07 --> 00:58:13 kind of stuff well for one in omaha we have the largest population of Sudanese
00:58:13 --> 00:58:14 people outside of Sudan.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:20 So I currently rock with the Sudan people 100%.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:25 And that's because what they understand and what I've explained in our message
00:58:25 --> 00:58:30 to them is regardless of what we think about each other, the outside people, we just black.
00:58:31 --> 00:58:35 And so when you get pulled over, when you get profiled, you black.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:40 And so part of the problem is I think the stigmatism that was created.
00:58:41 --> 00:58:47 Not by us, but to keep us separated. And, and a lot of the times before we even
00:58:47 --> 00:58:50 get a chance to build a relationship with each other, we go off of that instead
00:58:50 --> 00:58:52 of actually talking to each other.
00:58:52 --> 00:58:57 And so what I found out working with them is a lot of their young people has
00:58:57 --> 00:59:01 come here and then they done got assimilated to the gangs and the older people
00:59:01 --> 00:59:04 don't know what to do with them. So they'll just throw them out and say, they're crazy.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:09 You got the demon in you. But what they starting to realize is that program
00:59:09 --> 00:59:12 is for the specific skin color.
00:59:12 --> 00:59:16 It has nothing to do with where you're from. So when you come here and you are
00:59:16 --> 00:59:18 African, you start getting involved.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:22 And plus, they put you in a poor community. So you start joining the gang.
00:59:22 --> 00:59:26 And what they finding out is now, oh, no, it's not just the black people and
00:59:26 --> 00:59:29 how they act. It's the system that teaches us to act that way.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:34 So now they need us to help get big kids from mentally falling into the gang.
00:59:34 --> 00:59:38 And we need them to remember that Africa is the motherland and we got natural
00:59:38 --> 00:59:42 things that we can get from there, like our language, our food, our culture.
00:59:43 --> 00:59:47 And so that's the exchange we need to understand that we have with our African
00:59:47 --> 00:59:51 brothers and sisters that, you know, we need to help them keep their kids from
00:59:51 --> 00:59:54 the gangs, but they should be able to share the knowledge and wisdom and the
00:59:54 --> 00:59:56 things that we need coming from Africa.
00:59:56 --> 01:00:00 But when I see people acting like that or doing that to each other,
01:00:00 --> 01:00:01 you know, I'll try to educate them.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:05 But one thing I know is you can't control a human So if it's in them to be that
01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 way, it must be something else in their life that make them miserable.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:10 If you think you're going to focus on something like that.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:14 But in reality, it'll smack you in the face when you get profiled.
01:00:14 --> 01:00:17 Whether you're black or African, you're going to get profiled in America.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:21 Yeah, they would realize that that's not the place.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:27 So here we definitely work across the board with all the Sudanese and any African immigrant.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:29 We got a middle and African chamber.
01:00:30 --> 01:00:34 And and I was the I wasn't the president. I was on their board for the first
01:00:34 --> 01:00:38 few years they were here just because I wanted them people to know that just
01:00:38 --> 01:00:43 because it's a middling African chamber is still for African black and white.
01:00:43 --> 01:00:47 I mean, black and, you know, indigenous. So, yeah. Yeah.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 And, you know, I have the same philosophy. It bothers me a lot.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:59 You know, having gone to Jackson State, you know, I interacted with a lot of brothers and sisters.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:01 There's a lot of them from Nigeria.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:05 And and so you know
01:01:05 --> 01:01:07 to this day it's like you know
01:01:07 --> 01:01:10 we'll you know if i'm in jackson or i
01:01:10 --> 01:01:17 run into you know some people that i went to school with you know we we we interact
01:01:17 --> 01:01:20 like you know we're brothers or sisters you know what i'm saying i mean you
01:01:20 --> 01:01:24 know it's like everybody's everybody's cool with each other and it was a different
01:01:24 --> 01:01:30 time too but still you know it just because when i was When I was in school,
01:01:31 --> 01:01:33 it was like Pan-African was the thing.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:37 It was like we wanted to connect with our African brothers and sisters,
01:01:37 --> 01:01:40 and we wanted to follow that example.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:46 And I'm just really disturbed. So I'm glad that in the work that you're doing,
01:01:46 --> 01:01:50 there's a relationship in the community, and that's very, very positive.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:54 So talk about Untamed Summer.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:59 Explain what the concept of that was and how did it go this year?
01:02:00 --> 01:02:04 So we didn't do it this year. The last year we did it was 2022.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:09 Okay. The summer program is basically community building.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:14 We did it in the poorest income area, the poorest area, they say, in Nebraska and Omaha.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:19 And so what we did was, of course, food is always a draw. So we feed people four to seven.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:22 And then during that time when they come, it's every Sunday,
01:02:23 --> 01:02:28 four to seven for 20 weeks at a time. We did it two years straight, 21, 22, 23 and 24.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:33 We kind of had some conflicts because, like I told you, there's people who want to pimp the poverty.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:38 And so when we were there, our program started changing the numbers.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:41 And so you can't write the same grant to say that this is happening in the poor
01:02:41 --> 01:02:46 community when you got somebody that's changing the diagram of the numbers.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:50 And so when the crime rate started going down in that area, we didn't have police
01:02:50 --> 01:02:54 calls for two years in that area. There were certain people that wanted us removed.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:57 So we had to move to a different location. So we'll run it again this following year.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:03 However, at that community building time, you got a place for central people
01:03:03 --> 01:03:05 to gather and get to know each other.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:10 We were talking politics. We brought in people from around the community that
01:03:10 --> 01:03:14 would be like special guests or highlight them to talk to the children from
01:03:14 --> 01:03:18 lawyers, basic mechanics, black business owners.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:21 They come in every week and they talk and then also
01:03:21 --> 01:03:24 we had the political talks and the strategy talks
01:03:24 --> 01:03:27 and you know while the kids play the adults
01:03:27 --> 01:03:30 strategize and it started taking such an
01:03:30 --> 01:03:35 effect that the news every newspaper you know they were writing articles about
01:03:35 --> 01:03:38 it and then again like i said you know certain people that didn't want it to
01:03:38 --> 01:03:42 continue they did what they could to stop it but now you can't stop it we done
01:03:42 --> 01:03:48 moved to a different location and this location is open and 100% going to never pull the rug.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:53 And I think when you talk about building community, we should be able to go to any state.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:59 With that same program and in our black community and build any community because
01:03:59 --> 01:04:03 it's just about getting to trust each other, getting to know each other.
01:04:03 --> 01:04:06 So if we meeting up every Sunday for three hours, breaking bread,
01:04:07 --> 01:04:11 our kids is playing, we talking, we talking about issues, man,
01:04:11 --> 01:04:14 that's where the community moving forward starts with building trust.
01:04:15 --> 01:04:18 I know you now. I can trust you now. We can go into business now.
01:04:18 --> 01:04:21 We can start working together now. I can utilize your services now.
01:04:22 --> 01:04:25 And that's where we at with it. And I want to be able to move that state to
01:04:25 --> 01:04:26 state, hood to hood, you know?
01:04:27 --> 01:04:31 Yeah. And the term I always use is like ram in the bush, right?
01:04:32 --> 01:04:38 Because it's like, you know, why go outside of your community to get the resources
01:04:38 --> 01:04:43 you need when you have people capable providing those resources in the community, right?
01:04:44 --> 01:04:49 And I'm really, it doesn't matter what job I have you know what positions I've
01:04:49 --> 01:04:53 held or whatever that's that's always been even in my church you know it was
01:04:53 --> 01:04:59 like we had a school and I said so you keep getting all these people that.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 Never worked I mean that's never worked in a private school never worked and
01:05:05 --> 01:05:08 don't even go to the church and you trying to hire them to run the church school
01:05:08 --> 01:05:14 and you got you got you got educators as member of the church that you might
01:05:14 --> 01:05:18 need to utilize them and that's what we did you know, when I was responsible for it.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:23 So, you know, that's just me. And I think that's beautiful. I hate that.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:28 One, I want to take it as a good sign, though, because in the areas where you
01:05:28 --> 01:05:30 were working, crime was down.
01:05:31 --> 01:05:37 People were engaged. But I guess people that want to take advantage of misery didn't like that.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:41 So you had to you had to go to another area.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:48 But still, I'm hoping that that you still be able to have something going on
01:05:48 --> 01:05:51 in those particular particular areas, you know,
01:05:51 --> 01:05:57 that you that you laid the groundwork in and maybe hopefully encourage some
01:05:57 --> 01:06:01 of those people that went through the program or saw what it was about to maybe
01:06:01 --> 01:06:02 do their own thing over there.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:08 If folks are trying to stop you and your group, per se, from going in.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:12 And we'll actually still be in 68111.
01:06:12 --> 01:06:16 So it was it's still on 24th Street, which is the historical black business
01:06:16 --> 01:06:20 district. So we just moved down the street to a place called Assembly of the Saints.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:22 That's a church where the saints assemble.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:26 And this brother sat back quietly and he built like a community center church.
01:06:26 --> 01:06:32 So he got a podcast in there, a podcast room, video room. He has an art gallery in his church.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:38 He has a barbershop in his church. He has a room where we can donate diapers
01:06:38 --> 01:06:42 and stuff for the young women who got single women that need the extra clothing and diapers.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:45 He got a weight room in his church. We can go in there and lift weight.
01:06:45 --> 01:06:48 And he got a bistro in that church where you can just go in there,
01:06:48 --> 01:06:53 plug up your laptop, hang out, PS5s, Xboxes for the kids to come play.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:57 And it's a church, but it's the place where the saints assemble.
01:06:57 --> 01:07:00 And so that's where we'll be. and i'm so proud of
01:07:00 --> 01:07:03 that brother for sitting back quietly building that and he
01:07:03 --> 01:07:06 did it all with you know outside source money and
01:07:06 --> 01:07:11 can't nobody take it away from him so yeah yeah and now in the pictures that
01:07:11 --> 01:07:15 i've seen that that's the church that's got that big mural on the side of it
01:07:15 --> 01:07:21 yes sir that's the one yeah that's that's beautiful and that's that's that's
01:07:21 --> 01:07:25 encouraging that's that's good news So I want to, unfortunately,
01:07:25 --> 01:07:27 I need to pivot to some bad news, right?
01:07:28 --> 01:07:33 So talk to me about these brothers, Stephen Phipps and Cameron Ford.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:39 In your community, you know all about what's going on, but the rest of America doesn't know.
01:07:39 --> 01:07:45 So talk to the audience about what happened to these brothers and what you and
01:07:45 --> 01:07:48 others are trying to do to deal with that. Yeah.
01:07:48 --> 01:07:51 Yeah. So in North Omaha, we've had two murders within a month.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:55 One was Cameron Ford, who the police did a no knock search warrant,
01:07:55 --> 01:07:58 came in his house. He was in his boxers.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:01 He peeked around the corner to see what was going on and shot and killed that brother.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:05 They initially told us he shot him in the chest because he the police officer
01:08:05 --> 01:08:07 shot him in the chest because he charged at him.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:12 After we got the autopsy autopsy, we realized that he was shot under his armpit,
01:08:12 --> 01:08:15 which means he had his hands up and he came around the corner and was shot instantly
01:08:15 --> 01:08:17 in his underwear. there.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:21 That officer was fired, recommended to be terminated. But of course,
01:08:21 --> 01:08:23 the union is working on getting him his job back.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:28 The other brother was Stephen Phipps, young brother, had his registered firearm,
01:08:28 --> 01:08:30 had been harassed by two police officers.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:35 That day, they pulled him over and they just happened to be in the car together.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:40 But they had separate previous historical harassment against Stephen where they
01:08:40 --> 01:08:44 were following him around, pulling him over, giving him little minor tickets.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:48 So this day when he got pulled over, he realized it was both of them in the car.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:50 He took off running with his legal firearm.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:55 When he jumped the fence, the firearm fell. He had it in his hand because he
01:08:55 --> 01:08:59 was about to toss it. But then when he jumped the fence, it landed on the ground.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:03 And before he could even sit up or do anything, the officer shot him eight times
01:09:03 --> 01:09:07 on the ground while the firearm was above his head. But it had fell out of his hand.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:10 And he was begging the officer not to kill him.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:14 But he still shot him eight times on the ground. And Brother Phipps,
01:09:14 --> 01:09:17 when he did jump the fence, he said, OK, I give up. You got me.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:21 But it didn't matter that officer opened fire. And so the police,
01:09:21 --> 01:09:25 you know, you can't shoot somebody by law unless they're a threat to the community
01:09:25 --> 01:09:28 and they get in the way or they pose a threat to the officer.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:32 So what they used was while Brother Phipps was going over to Phipps and he had
01:09:32 --> 01:09:34 the gun in his hand, he was upside down.
01:09:34 --> 01:09:38 And they said the gun pointed at the officer during that brief second.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:45 And that was enough justifying cause for them to shoot fifth eight times on the ground.
01:09:45 --> 01:09:48 So like he in the matrix yeah so
01:09:48 --> 01:09:52 it's like so the body cam footage showed that
01:09:52 --> 01:09:55 he had dropped a gun and and and
01:09:55 --> 01:09:58 that he was surrendering and the officers still shot
01:09:58 --> 01:10:01 him anyway yeah to the public though
01:10:01 --> 01:10:04 they're only showing the transit video which is
01:10:04 --> 01:10:07 no sound and you can't link the sound up with the
01:10:07 --> 01:10:10 body cam footage they showed the body cam footage to the family but
01:10:10 --> 01:10:14 what the public is seeing is just transit video with no sound
01:10:14 --> 01:10:16 and initially the police told us they shot him while he
01:10:16 --> 01:10:19 was going over the fence but once we seen the
01:10:19 --> 01:10:22 body cam footage we realized he was shot on the ground
01:10:22 --> 01:10:25 after he had went over the fence and the gun was no longer in
01:10:25 --> 01:10:28 his hand yeah eight times up the ground yeah so
01:10:28 --> 01:10:31 what's the situation with those officers they still have
01:10:31 --> 01:10:35 their job well only one officer fired the
01:10:35 --> 01:10:38 other officer never even opened fire the one officer that
01:10:38 --> 01:10:41 did fire had multiple complaints from people
01:10:41 --> 01:10:45 in the community of his harassment and but he's not being fired and not being
01:10:45 --> 01:10:51 charged so what is what's going to be the plan of action i know that you work
01:10:51 --> 01:10:58 a lot with the local naacp there and other groups what what what is the the
01:10:58 --> 01:11:00 next steps as far as getting...
01:11:01 --> 01:11:07 Some kind of justice. Is there any talk about these officers in both of these
01:11:07 --> 01:11:12 shootings going to jail or going to trial or where we're at with that?
01:11:12 --> 01:11:14 Here in Nebraska, we got grand jury.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:20 So, but the problem is our county attorney has already deemed both shootings justifiable.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:27 It was the chief that fired Officer Vell in the first shooting after the county
01:11:27 --> 01:11:29 attorney said he wasn't going to press charges.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:32 So that grand jury hasn't taken place yet. And then with Mr.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:36 Phipps, he's off course, he came out and said he wasn't charging him either.
01:11:36 --> 01:11:40 And the police chief said he's not firing this guy either. So it's still he
01:11:40 --> 01:11:41 on desk duty until the grand jury.
01:11:41 --> 01:11:44 But the problem is, you know, the attorney, the county attorney,
01:11:44 --> 01:11:46 the one who present the case to the grand jury.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:52 So it's already tainted and he's refusing to appoint a special prosecutor to
01:11:52 --> 01:11:56 look at the case outside of himself because he's already made his decision and his bias.
01:11:57 --> 01:11:59 He's another one of them flip-floppers that used to be Democrat.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:06 Now he's a Republican, but he's refusing to acknowledge the fact that both of
01:12:06 --> 01:12:08 those officers shot unarmed black men.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:14 But in his eyes, like he said with Cameron, it was justified because he was
01:12:14 --> 01:12:18 a known gang member or a threat, even though he didn't have his gun in his hand.
01:12:18 --> 01:12:21 And with Mr. Phipps, that split second while he was upside
01:12:21 --> 01:12:24 down on the fence was a threat
01:12:24 --> 01:12:26 to the officer and the officer was justified in shooting and
01:12:26 --> 01:12:31 killing him yeah well hopefully you
01:12:31 --> 01:12:38 know we can we can try to get some more attention to this i don't have any faith
01:12:38 --> 01:12:43 because in minnesota you know the state attorney general governor the governor
01:12:43 --> 01:12:49 got the state attorney general to be the special prosecutor in the in the george floyd case.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:53 Considering that that attorney general was trying not to allow
01:12:53 --> 01:12:56 people to vote i don't expect y'all the attorney general to
01:12:56 --> 01:12:59 or maybe governor to be that that
01:12:59 --> 01:13:02 progressive but hopefully if if
01:13:02 --> 01:13:06 you can we can continue to put some national light
01:13:06 --> 01:13:09 on it that you know you might get some
01:13:09 --> 01:13:12 support and might get some help in in
01:13:12 --> 01:13:16 injustice for those two brothers because you know
01:13:16 --> 01:13:19 it's just it hits me a little harder brother
01:13:19 --> 01:13:22 wells because i i've i have a law
01:13:22 --> 01:13:25 enforcement background and so you know
01:13:25 --> 01:13:29 in in the training we're taught about use
01:13:29 --> 01:13:35 of force we're taught about cases supreme court cases that limit what we can
01:13:35 --> 01:13:40 and can't do and you know the the case in tennessee is the one that applies
01:13:40 --> 01:13:46 in the case with stephen it's like you know you're not supposed to shoot.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:51 In pursuit. It has to be a clear and present danger.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:57 You know, like the reason why those brothers in Atlanta, those officers got
01:13:57 --> 01:14:00 off was because Rashard Brooks physically turned.
01:14:01 --> 01:14:05 Now, even though he had a taser, he physically turned and pointed that at one
01:14:05 --> 01:14:10 of the officers. And so that way it was clear you could see that, right?
01:14:10 --> 01:14:14 It's not that it's great that it happened, but we
01:14:14 --> 01:14:17 under you know under the letter of the law in the
01:14:17 --> 01:14:20 case with steven now unless
01:14:20 --> 01:14:23 he was some kind of superhero or whatever there was
01:14:23 --> 01:14:27 no way that he could pose a threat you
01:14:27 --> 01:14:33 know with the gun it's almost it was almost like a fumble situation right you
01:14:33 --> 01:14:38 got the ball but in the motion of falling you lose the ball and so you know
01:14:38 --> 01:14:42 you you can't advance it right it's the same thing if you got the weapon you
01:14:42 --> 01:14:45 losing control of the weapon, you're not a threat at that point.
01:14:45 --> 01:14:50 If anything, you're trying to get to that person before they can retrieve the weapon.
01:14:51 --> 01:14:55 And, you know, I mean, that's the way we were trained. So for those officers
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 to shoot them, you know, I think that's excessive.
01:14:58 --> 01:15:04 But again, I'm not, you know, I'm not an attorney, so I can't do anything about that.
01:15:04 --> 01:15:10 But I'm hoping that with this platform, we can lift up Stephen Phipps and Cameron
01:15:10 --> 01:15:19 Ford's names and bring some national attention to what's going on in Nebraska. So let me ask you this.
01:15:21 --> 01:15:24 And then we'll kind of close it out, but.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:29 Well, I was going to ask some, but I guess I'll just.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:33 Can I ask him real quick? Go ahead. So Mr.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:39 Ford was his family was able to get Ben Crump as a lawyer for his case. OK, good.
01:15:39 --> 01:15:43 Yeah. So that that he already sent a representative here to meet with the family.
01:15:44 --> 01:15:47 And then also with Stephen Phipps, he was able to get Mr.
01:15:48 --> 01:15:50 Cannon, who represented Sandra Bland family.
01:15:50 --> 01:15:54 OK, we did get two lawyers to take their cases. And then, like you said,
01:15:54 --> 01:15:59 it was kind of personal for me because in Minnesota, I did have a young cousin,
01:15:59 --> 01:16:01 my cousin, Karen Wells, shout out to her.
01:16:01 --> 01:16:07 Her son, my cousin, Amir Locke, was killed on the couch when he was sleeping in 2022.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:12 And they came and served a search warrant for him, for somebody else, I mean, not him.
01:16:12 --> 01:16:15 And he just happened to be on the couch with his illegal gun and he never pointed
01:16:15 --> 01:16:19 it up. But just the fact that he had it in his hand, he was shot before he could get the cover off.
01:16:20 --> 01:16:23 And we've been going through that so much. this really touched home.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:26 And then I don't know if you know the history of North Omaha.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:31 Well, the reason why we don't have a business district and it was tore up was
01:16:31 --> 01:16:35 because Vivian Strong, when she was 14, she's my cousin, seven years before
01:16:35 --> 01:16:40 I was born, she got shot in the back of the head by an Omaha police officer and she was killed.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:43 And the officer got charged, but was acquitted of manslaughter.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:47 And they never gave us a reason why he was allowed to shoot a girl in the back
01:16:47 --> 01:16:49 of the head that was 14 running from the police.
01:16:50 --> 01:16:54 So 53 years apart with two of my cousins and still the same result. No charges.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:58 The police get to come back to the community and where Vivian,
01:16:58 --> 01:17:03 not only did he get to get back on a police force, but he came back to North Omaha and patrol. So.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:07 Just like did things really change or
01:17:07 --> 01:17:09 not you know man with cameron and
01:17:09 --> 01:17:12 steven happening all over again it just reopens those wounds
01:17:12 --> 01:17:16 and it makes it personal that we have to look
01:17:16 --> 01:17:19 at the way policing is done in america because the
01:17:19 --> 01:17:25 restraint is taught and is definitely used with with the our other white brothers
01:17:25 --> 01:17:29 and sisters but with us there is excessive force right away there's no restraint
01:17:29 --> 01:17:34 there's no de-escalation done you know yeah and that That kind of I guess that
01:17:34 --> 01:17:38 was the question I was going to try to ask was what was the history?
01:17:38 --> 01:17:45 So I'm glad you brought that up. I hate that that kind of tragedy has touched your family twice,
01:17:45 --> 01:17:54 you know, but you are doing something to try to get young people out of that
01:17:54 --> 01:17:58 situation and trying to uplift the community as well.
01:17:59 --> 01:18:03 And that's why i wanted to highlight you brother because you know when when
01:18:03 --> 01:18:10 when people like you come across my timeline with this platform i have i want
01:18:10 --> 01:18:12 to uplift them and show because.
01:18:13 --> 01:18:16 You know when people always talk about what's going on in communities right,
01:18:18 --> 01:18:21 you know we talk about atlanta we talk about chicago
01:18:21 --> 01:18:23 we talk about new york we talk about la you know the big
01:18:23 --> 01:18:26 cities and you know and every now and then
01:18:26 --> 01:18:29 they might mention jackson mississippi or st louis missouri
01:18:29 --> 01:18:33 or something like that but in politics they
01:18:33 --> 01:18:36 call your state flyover country right
01:18:36 --> 01:18:42 and and and and as far as the black community is concerned outside the fact
01:18:42 --> 01:18:46 that people say oh malcolm x was born there they really don't have they don't
01:18:46 --> 01:18:50 talk about that because you know they don't talk about what goes on in the midwest
01:18:50 --> 01:18:54 and nebraska and oklahoma and kansas and those kind of things,
01:18:54 --> 01:19:00 even though there's incredible activism and incredible history as far as the
01:19:00 --> 01:19:04 black community goes in that part of the country.
01:19:04 --> 01:19:08 And so that was the other reason I wanted to make sure that.
01:19:10 --> 01:19:15 You know, I wanted to get you on to remind people that wherever we are,
01:19:16 --> 01:19:21 there is in this country, there is a struggle and there are people trying to
01:19:21 --> 01:19:22 help us deal with that struggle.
01:19:23 --> 01:19:31 So, well, I am really, really glad that you took the time to come on and I greatly
01:19:31 --> 01:19:33 appreciate you doing that.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:36 Yeah thank you for even reaching out and like i said you
01:19:36 --> 01:19:39 know i i know i said little old me because you know
01:19:39 --> 01:19:42 like you said oh nebraska's overlooked a lot and it
01:19:42 --> 01:19:45 did take a lot for us to even get the state to recognize malcolm being
01:19:45 --> 01:19:48 born here so we just got him inducted into the
01:19:48 --> 01:19:51 hall of fame this year so yeah man i appreciate you
01:19:51 --> 01:19:54 and your platform mr fleming man you just don't know how
01:19:54 --> 01:19:57 much it mean to me that you reached out i get to talk
01:19:57 --> 01:20:00 to or people get to hear from me that's not in nebraska
01:20:00 --> 01:20:03 and uh in omaha and man i appreciate you
01:20:03 --> 01:20:06 allowing me on your platform brother forever all right so if
01:20:06 --> 01:20:09 people want to get in touch with what you're doing because you've got you've got
01:20:09 --> 01:20:12 some merchandise and stuff too so kind of
01:20:12 --> 01:20:17 give your plug if people want to get involved with what you're doing and and
01:20:17 --> 01:20:20 buy some merchandise and all that stuff go ahead and tell people how they can
01:20:20 --> 01:20:26 do that you can contact me through multiple platforms sherman wells on instagram
01:20:26 --> 01:20:31 Sherman Wells on X and Sherman Wells on Facebook.
01:20:31 --> 01:20:35 We have an untamed page on Facebook and, and also on LinkedIn.
01:20:35 --> 01:20:38 I have Sherman Wells on LinkedIn and Sherman Wells on YouTube.
01:20:38 --> 01:20:42 If you want to buy some merchandise, we have the I'm from the hood street,
01:20:42 --> 01:20:45 where we talking about motherhood, fatherhood, sisterhood, brotherhood.
01:20:45 --> 01:20:49 And it's before it took a village. Now it takes a hood and you can go to I'm
01:20:49 --> 01:20:52 from the hood.com to order that, that merchandise.
01:20:52 --> 01:20:55 All right, Sherman Wells. Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.
01:20:55 --> 01:20:59 Much, much success on all the endeavors that you're doing.
01:20:59 --> 01:21:01 And, and, and, uh, you have an
01:21:01 --> 01:21:05 open invitation on this show to come back anytime something on your mind.
01:21:05 --> 01:21:07 Just let me know and we'll make that happen.
01:21:08 --> 01:21:12 Yes, sir. I appreciate you brother. All right, guys. And we'll catch y'all on the other side.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:23 Music.
01:21:24 --> 01:21:29 All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Kevin Smith, Professor Kevin
01:21:29 --> 01:21:35 Smith and Sherman Wells for coming on the show.
01:21:35 --> 01:21:42 So please go out and get The Jailer's Reckoning by Professor Smith when it's available.
01:21:43 --> 01:21:48 It's a very it's a short read, but it's very, very power packed and very,
01:21:48 --> 01:21:58 very informational as far as educating people on the prison system in the United States.
01:21:59 --> 01:22:04 As you know, I had Robin Bernstein on talking about Freeman with her book Freeman's Challenge.
01:22:05 --> 01:22:10 And I even recommended that book to Professor Smith because he mentioned Auburn
01:22:10 --> 01:22:12 prison in his in his book.
01:22:13 --> 01:22:19 And so he said he's going to try to read it. So, Robin, at least there's one more book sale you got.
01:22:20 --> 01:22:24 But, yeah, I mean, those are the type of issues that we want to cover.
01:22:24 --> 01:22:32 And any people, academics, that address a lot of the issues that we need to
01:22:32 --> 01:22:38 deal with as a society, you know, it's good to highlight them.
01:22:38 --> 01:22:40 And that's what we'll continue to do on the podcast.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:47 And then Brother Wells, with his work in Omaha, you know, it's like,
01:22:48 --> 01:22:54 you know, a lot of where we are, Wherever we are in the United States,
01:22:55 --> 01:22:56 there's always a struggle.
01:22:56 --> 01:23:01 It's not just in the big major urban centers in the United States.
01:23:01 --> 01:23:03 It's anywhere we are gathered.
01:23:04 --> 01:23:08 And, you know, and that's one of the things I wanted to highlight having him
01:23:08 --> 01:23:14 on and just highlight the fact that here's a brother has got his family involved
01:23:14 --> 01:23:17 in doing work in the community, which is something that all of us can do.
01:23:19 --> 01:23:20 We don't have to have an organization.
01:23:22 --> 01:23:29 Excuse me, we don't have to have, you know, a title or anything, but we can be involved.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:35 And one thing I didn't mention, because I didn't want to make the brother blush,
01:23:35 --> 01:23:41 but he has been awarded the Omaha NAACP Freedom Fighter Award for this year.
01:23:42 --> 01:23:45 And so congratulations to Brother Wells on that.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:51 And go out and support them and, you know, do what you can.
01:23:51 --> 01:23:56 And really, in any community that you live in, you know, support folks that
01:23:56 --> 01:24:00 are doing the work to try to make our communities better.
01:24:01 --> 01:24:05 So I would kind of close out on that.
01:24:05 --> 01:24:12 But, you know, it's just a lot of stuff going on. And as we get closer and closer to the election.
01:24:14 --> 01:24:23 You know, I'm watching the acts of desperation and watching the vitriol getting ratcheted up.
01:24:24 --> 01:24:30 And I'm watching, you know, people, how people are responding and how the media
01:24:30 --> 01:24:31 is responding and all that stuff.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:36 All I want people to do is to go out and vote. You know,
01:24:36 --> 01:24:44 I think it's a shame that there is a mindset that the best way to maintain power
01:24:44 --> 01:24:48 is to make it harder for people to exercise their right.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:56 But it's just a reminder that your vote is powerful.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:02 Let me say that again. Your vote is powerful. If it wasn't powerful,
01:25:03 --> 01:25:06 people wouldn't be trying to discourage you from use it, using it.
01:25:06 --> 01:25:10 People wouldn't be doing things to prevent you from using it.
01:25:10 --> 01:25:15 People wouldn't be doing things to try to deny you access to it.
01:25:15 --> 01:25:26 So I really want you all to understand that and believe that that vote that you have is powerful.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:35 I have a preference. of who I want to vote for. It is no secret about that.
01:25:36 --> 01:25:40 But if you don't agree with my preference, I need you to vote.
01:25:41 --> 01:25:46 If you think that the system is not working well, I need you to vote.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:52 If you are concerned that a lot of times your voice is not heard, guess what?
01:25:52 --> 01:25:55 Your voice will be heard if you vote.
01:25:56 --> 01:26:01 Presidential elections in my lifetime And even just before I was born had been
01:26:01 --> 01:26:06 decided by literally a few thousand votes.
01:26:07 --> 01:26:15 And I would just encourage everybody, you know, regardless of what motivates
01:26:15 --> 01:26:18 you to vote, that you do it.
01:26:20 --> 01:26:25 Especially in the African-American and the black community, I really,
01:26:25 --> 01:26:27 really want you all to participate.
01:26:28 --> 01:26:35 You know, if you weren't important, then candidates wouldn't be talking about what their agenda is.
01:26:35 --> 01:26:38 You wouldn't have candidates saying how much they love us, right?
01:26:39 --> 01:26:44 You wouldn't have people trying to influence us one way or the other,
01:26:45 --> 01:26:48 admonish us even, right? Your vote is important.
01:26:49 --> 01:26:55 And some of you understand majority of you that listen to this podcast understand,
01:26:55 --> 01:26:58 but there are some folks that are younger that may not.
01:26:58 --> 01:27:01 And literally people did die for this opportunity.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:08 People literally fought and are still fighting for the right for us to vote.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:14 And so, you know, it's not like driving a car. It's not a privilege.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:17 It's a right as a citizen.
01:27:18 --> 01:27:25 So I really, really want you all to understand that it's vitally important that
01:27:25 --> 01:27:27 you participate and not just vote for president.
01:27:28 --> 01:27:31 Right. Because in some states, you'll be determining who sits in the U.S. Senate.
01:27:32 --> 01:27:35 In all states, you'll be determining who sits in Congress.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:41 You vote for judges. You vote for trustees of the school board.
01:27:41 --> 01:27:43 You've heard me give this speech before. Right.
01:27:44 --> 01:27:48 Pay attention to everything on that ballot when you get there.
01:27:48 --> 01:27:51 If you have questions about what's going to be on the ballot,
01:27:51 --> 01:27:53 go to your local state resource.
01:27:54 --> 01:27:57 Most of the time it's going to be your secretary of state, if not any kind of
01:27:57 --> 01:28:02 election resource that you can pull up and find out what's going to be on your ballot.
01:28:02 --> 01:28:08 There are even some apps that you can download and it'll you put in your address
01:28:08 --> 01:28:11 and it'll tell you what's going to be on your ballot.
01:28:12 --> 01:28:18 Educate yourself. Make a plan, whether that's when you're going to go or when
01:28:18 --> 01:28:23 you're going to be able to bring some of your friends so they can vote to family members, whatever.
01:28:24 --> 01:28:34 And then execute that plan by voting. It is the equalizer as far as elections go. Bottom line.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:40 So I just wanted to say that there are some other things on my mind,
01:28:41 --> 01:28:42 but I'm not going to keep you along today.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:49 I just want to continue to stress as we get into the closing days of this election
01:28:49 --> 01:28:54 that your vote is your voice. So exercise.
01:28:55 --> 01:28:57 Thank you for listening until next time.
01:28:58 --> 01:29:46 Music.
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