Professor Gloria J. Browne-Marshall introduces Martyrs Day, a new annual remembrance on July 5 to honor protesters and activists who gave their lives advancing social justice in the United States.
The episode also features former Minneapolis Mayor Betsy Hodges on racial equity and civic leadership, and Cecelia Thomas of NMAC on HIV policy, public health advocacy, and organizing to protect vital programs.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:15 --> 00:01:20 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello, and welcome to another moment. With Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:15 So, you know, I noticed something, and, you know, it's just a little minor thing, but,
00:02:16 --> 00:02:21 you know, when I do my intros, a lot of times I just do kind of like a tease
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 kind of deal, where I just talk about, I might have a guest that's going to
00:02:25 --> 00:02:27 talk about this or that or whatever.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:32 But it just dawned on me, it's like when I'm promoting the podcast,
00:02:32 --> 00:02:37 you already know who these people are, right? At least you know their names.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:44 And so it kind of doesn't make sense for me to do a tease.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:51 I guess you don't know which person is going to talk about which subject in that sense.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:57 But the one thing I don't want to do on this, on this podcast is insult anybody's intelligence.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:04 My goal is to elevate everybody's intelligence and get them to meet people who
00:03:04 --> 00:03:09 are doing the work that may not get the national headlines and all that stuff.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:13 And every now and then we're fortunate enough to get some people who you may
00:03:13 --> 00:03:16 have seen on CNN or MSNOW or,
00:03:17 --> 00:03:19 you know, whatever and or even
00:03:19 --> 00:03:23 Fox right and you
00:03:23 --> 00:03:30 know so it doesn't make sense for me to to do the quote unquote tease when I'm
00:03:30 --> 00:03:34 already advertising and letting people know who's going to be on the show from
00:03:34 --> 00:03:42 Jump Street so starting this episode and really kick in you know because season 14 is coming.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:52 As you know, my season is not based on anything chronological or seasonal.
00:03:52 --> 00:03:57 My seasons are based on volume of episodes. So each season is based on volume
00:03:57 --> 00:03:57 of episodes. So each season,
00:03:58 --> 00:04:02 Although I've looked back, it hasn't exactly matched up, but lately I've tried
00:04:02 --> 00:04:05 to make sure that each season has 25 episodes.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:12 So when you go to www.momenterik.com, you'll see that.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:17 If you're trying to find something in season 10, you can go on the website under
00:04:17 --> 00:04:22 episodes and it'll break it down by seasons and, you know, or just,
00:04:22 --> 00:04:25 you can just scroll through the episodes thing.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:34 So I'm just going to do something different Let's go around from this point
00:04:34 --> 00:04:38 forward And just let you know the people that are going to be on And what they're
00:04:38 --> 00:04:44 going to talk about And let you peruse at your leisure, right?
00:04:44 --> 00:04:49 So on this episode, I have Professor Gloria J.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:53 Browne-Marshall She's coming back onto the podcast and she's going to be talking
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 about the inaugural Martyrs Day that she is promoting.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:02 I'm going to have the former mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota,
00:05:02 --> 00:05:08 Betsy Hodges, and she's going to talk about her experiences in public service
00:05:08 --> 00:05:12 and her current work as a DEI consultant.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 And then we're going to have Cecelia Thomas come on.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 She is the chief policy and advocacy officer for NMAC. And so she's going to
00:05:20 --> 00:05:24 share information on the work that her organization is doing.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:34 So these conversations are very good and it should be very informative to y'all listening.
00:05:35 --> 00:05:42 If y'all want to support the podcast, please, again, go to www.momenterik.com and do that.
00:05:43 --> 00:05:48 You know, whatever degree you want to do it. If you just like listening, great.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:55 If you want to subscribe, you can do that through that website.
00:05:55 --> 00:06:00 If you want to just make a donation, you can do that through the website. Whatever you want to do.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:05 Like I mentioned, this is award season for podcasting.
00:06:05 --> 00:06:10 I only submit my podcast to one, and that's the Black Podcast Association.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:14 The Black Podcasting Awards, I'm sorry, there's two different groups.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:18 There's a black podcasters association and
00:06:18 --> 00:06:25 then there's a black podcasting award and so i only submit to them and so you
00:06:25 --> 00:06:31 know i've i've put my my podcast on for a couple of categories this year and
00:06:31 --> 00:06:38 i usually try to do at least two and that's my way of supporting the organization whether i win or not,
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 or get nominated even or not.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:46 I support the Black Podcasters, Black Podcasting Association,
00:06:46 --> 00:06:51 I mean, Black Podcasting Awards, slow down, Erik.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 To support our own, right?
00:06:57 --> 00:07:01 This is one of those for us, by us kind of things.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:06 So please give them a support, shout out. They're always looking for sponsors.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:12 And, you know, they've awarded, God, they've been doing this,
00:07:12 --> 00:07:16 I think they started like a year after I started podcasting.
00:07:17 --> 00:07:21 So it's really, really becoming a big event.
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 They're actually having live award shows now.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:30 It had been because of COVID strictly on streaming on the Zoom,
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 but now they're actually having live events.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:37 So that costs money to do that. So support them.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:43 Since I mentioned the Black Podcasters Association, you can also support them
00:07:43 --> 00:07:49 as well, because that's the group where we're all in to, you know, build each other up.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:53 And those two groups, not only...
00:07:54 --> 00:07:59 You know, give us a community, but they also offer support.
00:07:59 --> 00:08:05 So if you're interested in podcasting, I would hook up with either one of those
00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 organizations because even though it seems like it's a bunch of us out there,
00:08:10 --> 00:08:15 I think black podcasters make up no more than 2% of all the podcasts that are out there.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:20 So if you feel like, oh man, well, you know, my voice will get lost.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:26 And I, you know, if you're in it for the money, do what you need to do to learn
00:08:26 --> 00:08:27 how to do it for the money.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 But if you want to be like me and just do it to be of service to people,
00:08:32 --> 00:08:36 of course, again, I do ask for subscriptions and donations.
00:08:36 --> 00:08:42 But the reality is, is that I do it for my therapy.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:48 And hopefully it's therapeutic and educational for y'all that are listening.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:54 So just wanted to say all that and kind of set everything up.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:56 So now it is time to kick off the podcast.
00:08:57 --> 00:09:01 And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:14 Thanks, Erik. A federal judge temporarily blocked the Trump administration from
00:09:14 --> 00:09:22 creating, operating, or paying claims through a new $1 billion anti-weaponization fund.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 A gunman was killed by Secret Service police after he opened fire at a White
00:09:27 --> 00:09:30 House checkpoint, injuring a bystander in the incident.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:36 A federal judicial panel blocked Alabama's Republican-backed congressional map
00:09:36 --> 00:09:42 for the 2026 elections, ruling that it intentionally discriminated against Black voters.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:48 Several South Carolina Republican state senators broke party lines to block
00:09:48 --> 00:09:51 a new map designed to dismantle the U.S.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 House District of Black Democratic Congressman James Clyburn.
00:09:54 --> 00:10:00 A federal judge declined to halt President Trump's executive order on election rules.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:04 Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton defeated U.S.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:08 Senator John Cornyn in a Republican primary runoff.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:14 In a controversial Texas Democratic primary runoff, Representative Christian
00:10:14 --> 00:10:19 Menifee defeated Representative Al Green in a redrawn Houston congressional district.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:25 Pope Leo issued the Catholic Church's most explicit apology to date for its
00:10:25 --> 00:10:32 historic role in legitimizing, participating in, and delaying the condemnation of slavery. A U.S.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:37 Judge dismissed an indictment against Salvadoran migrant Kilmar Abrego,
00:10:37 --> 00:10:42 ruling that the Trump administration vindictively prosecuted him after he successfully
00:10:42 --> 00:10:45 sued to reverse his illegal deportation.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:51 The CDC expanded enhanced Ebola screening for travelers returning from the DRC,
00:10:51 --> 00:10:57 Uganda, or South Sudan to include Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 Airport alongside Washington's Dulles International Airport.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:06 A federal judge dismissed a Department of Justice lawsuit against Boston,
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 ruling that the federal government lacked legal grounds to challenge the City's
00:11:10 --> 00:11:14 Sanctuary Jurisdiction Ordinance. The U.S.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:19 Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in favor of a black death row inmate in Mississippi,
00:11:19 --> 00:11:24 finding that the state courts failed to evaluate claims of racial discrimination.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:30 And civil rights lawyer Clarence B. Jones died at the age of 95.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:34 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:48 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for my guest, Gloria J.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:55 Browne-Marshall. Gloria J. Browne-Marshall is a professor of constitutional law
00:11:55 --> 00:12:00 at John Jay College, an award-winning writer, a playwright, and a legal commentator.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:06 She has litigated cases for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Southern Poverty Law
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 Center, and Community Legal Services.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:12 Her previous works include She Took Justice, The Black Woman,
00:12:12 --> 00:12:15 Law, and Power, and The Voting Rights War.
00:12:15 --> 00:12:19 A frequent commentator on CNN, NPR, and MSNBC,
00:12:20 --> 00:12:25 Brown Marshall has received numerous accolades, including the 2024 American
00:12:25 --> 00:12:31 Bar Association Sybil Gabel Award and an Emmy Award as a writer and host of
00:12:31 --> 00:12:35 Your Democracy, an animated series about the U.S.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:40 Constitution. Her latest book is A Protest History of the United States,
00:12:40 --> 00:12:45 and she is making her second appearance on A Moment with Erik Fleming.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:49 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:12:49 --> 00:12:54 again on this podcast, Gloria J. Browne-Marshall.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:08 All right. Dr. Gloria J.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:13 Browne-Marshall. Well, I should say professor. You're a doctor in law,
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 so I guess that'll work. How are you doing?
00:13:17 --> 00:13:23 I'm doing well. Well, I'm actually a full professor at John Jay College,
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 and I teach constitutional law, racial law, and evidence there.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 It's one of the few colleges that actually has a law department,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 so it's really a fascinating place to be.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 Yeah, yeah. Well, it's good to have you back on.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 And you were telling me about this project that you were excited about.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:46 And so we're going to talk about that on this interview.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:50 But as always, you know, I always want you to respond to a quote.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:56 So the quote I want you to respond to is, if you're not outraged,
00:13:56 --> 00:13:58 you're not paying attention.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 What does that quote mean to you? Well, Heather Heyer said it,
00:14:01 --> 00:14:06 and it's actually on our website, martyrsday.us.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:14 And what it means to me is that there are so many things that are taking place, even in an average time.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 This is an abnormal time. And so if you're not paying attention to the rights
00:14:20 --> 00:14:22 being taken away, the rulings of the U.S.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:26 Supreme Court, the way that our democracy is being undermined.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:31 And if you haven't been paying attention to all of that, then maybe you wouldn't be outraged.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:34 But if you are paying attention, you should be outraged. Yeah.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:40 All right. So what is Martyrs Day and why is it important?
00:14:41 --> 00:14:45 Well, you began with a quote by Heather Heyer. Heather Heyer was a protester
00:14:45 --> 00:14:51 who was protesting peacefully when a white supremacist decided to run a car
00:14:51 --> 00:14:53 into the group of protesters.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:59 And Heather Heyer was part of an anti-hate protest march in Charlottesville, Virginia.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:08 There were hundreds of men carrying torches walking across the University of
00:15:08 --> 00:15:15 Virginia's Charlottesville campus, chanting, the Jews will not replace us.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:20 The Jews will not replace us. That's why I always find it fascinating that this
00:15:20 --> 00:15:27 administration has decided to pretend that it's the supporter of people who are Jewish,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:31 and so much advocates against anti-Semitism.
00:15:32 --> 00:15:39 And I'm just stunned because Heather Heyer died protecting rights of people,
00:15:39 --> 00:15:40 standing up for rights of people.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:46 And, you know, she's gone. And I had a chance in my book tour for my book,
00:15:46 --> 00:15:49 A Protest History of the United States, which brought me to your show the first
00:15:49 --> 00:15:54 time, to go to Charlottesville for the Virginia Book Festival.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:59 And I see her name on the placards. I see her name on street signs.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:01 I see the memorial for her.
00:16:01 --> 00:16:05 But people don't even remember who she is because protesters,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:06 activists, and others die in this country.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 And, you know, it's like it didn't happen.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:17 We have Memorial Day and Veterans Day, which is great because we're giving homage
00:16:17 --> 00:16:22 to those people who signed up to fight and fought foreign powers to protect this nation.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:28 But this nation moves forward in social justice, in the rights that we have,
00:16:28 --> 00:16:30 the protections we have, the interpretations of the U.S.
00:16:31 --> 00:16:34 Constitution that were meant primarily for rich people and corporations and
00:16:34 --> 00:16:35 the state and federal government.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:40 Protesters and activists put the conscience in the Constitution,
00:16:41 --> 00:16:44 and that's rarely recognized.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:47 And the ultimate price they paid was the taking of their lives.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:50 And so I wanted.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 Throughout this tour for Protest History of the United States to do more.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:58 And I thought, well, maybe if I talked about these people more,
00:16:58 --> 00:17:04 maybe if these activists who were slain, maybe if I discussed the power of activism more.
00:17:04 --> 00:17:09 But I felt there was something else I had to do, and it came to me. I needed to have a day.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 And I thought about it before over the years, but I said, I'm going to do it
00:17:14 --> 00:17:20 this year because of the 250th anniversary of this country. and the Declaration
00:17:20 --> 00:17:25 of Independence being a protest document, we need to recognize the,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:31 the losses that we've had of protesters who are standing up for the rights we
00:17:31 --> 00:17:32 take for granted every day.
00:17:32 --> 00:17:35 So Martyrs' Day, they're a Martyrs' Day in other countries.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 So I said, why not have a Martyrs' Day in this country?
00:17:38 --> 00:17:44 And then we can recognize the protesters and activists of any era in American
00:17:44 --> 00:17:54 history who have been slain or whose untimely deaths led to social justice movement,
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 such as George Floyd and Emmett Till.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 They weren't protesting when they were killed, but their deaths for Emmett Till
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 led to Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 You know, George Floyd's death led to changes in criminal justice legislation,
00:18:11 --> 00:18:14 led to the passage of the Emmett Till Anti-Lynching Act.
00:18:14 --> 00:18:18 So when we start thinking about what protesters have done, it's like we take
00:18:18 --> 00:18:23 for granted that these rights we have and protections just appeared like Santa Claus did it.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:27 Santa Claus and the tooth fairy got together and gave us these rights and protections,
00:18:27 --> 00:18:31 but actually protesters have been doing this throughout the arc of this country's
00:18:31 --> 00:18:37 history, so why not this year on the 250th anniversary add Martyrs Day on July 5th?
00:18:37 --> 00:18:42 The day after our Independence Day, the day after the barbecues and the picnics
00:18:42 --> 00:18:44 and the celebrations and the fireworks,
00:18:44 --> 00:18:49 Let's then take a moment to think of the protesters who also made what we have
00:18:49 --> 00:18:53 to in this country possible So since you brought up July the 5th,
00:18:53 --> 00:18:55 why why did you pick that day?
00:18:55 --> 00:18:57 Was it just because it's after independence day?
00:18:58 --> 00:19:04 It actually came from someone who is on the inaugural Martyr's Day Committee,
00:19:04 --> 00:19:09 Vincent DeForest, who was on the committee for the Bicentennial.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 And he said, you know, what day are we going to do this?
00:19:13 --> 00:19:17 And I thought, okay, now we have the whole calendar. We have certain dates that
00:19:17 --> 00:19:18 are, of course, important here and there.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:25 And he said, but on July 5th, Frederick Douglass asked the same question you're
00:19:25 --> 00:19:32 asking now. when he wrote his speech, What to the Slave is the Fourth of July in 1852.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:38 He's asking, country, you believe in all these rights,
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 You believe in freedom, and yet you have enslaved people here,
00:19:42 --> 00:19:47 because 1852 means that slavery was in full effect in the United States.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 People were being bought and sold, families just torn to pieces,
00:19:51 --> 00:19:55 people worked to death, women assaulted, all these things, horrendous things
00:19:55 --> 00:20:00 were going on, and yet people were having their celebrations on July 4th.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:05 So on July 5th in upstate New York, in Rochester, he gave that famous speech,
00:20:05 --> 00:20:08 What to the Slave of the Fourth of July, and asking the question,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 how can you celebrate freedom when you have people in bondage?
00:20:11 --> 00:20:15 And slavery didn't end until 1865. So then the question becomes,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 how can we celebrate, continue to celebrate freedom in this country without
00:20:20 --> 00:20:24 recognizing the people who lost their lives to have us gain that freedom?
00:20:24 --> 00:20:30 Not just those who were in foreign wars, but those who are right here.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:33 Regular people who woke up one day to go to the grocery store,
00:20:33 --> 00:20:37 woke up one day to say, I'm going to protest, who are now dead,
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 decided to go vote that day in 1965.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46 1966, and were slaughtered because they wanted to register to vote.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:49 So there's so much that, you know, protesters have done.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:55 And I just believe that their work helped make this country great as well as
00:20:55 --> 00:20:56 the work of other people.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:02 And there needs to be a time in which we annually pay homage to them as well.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 And so that's why July 5th becomes the day. And it works out very well,
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 too, because we're talking about liberty and freedoms on the 4th of July.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:15 We're talking about independence. And so we need to realize that the words of
00:21:15 --> 00:21:18 the Constitution, I teach constitutional law, the words are there.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:21 The words on paper will not make it reality.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:25 Human beings had to make freedom of speech a reality.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 Human beings had to make equal protection a reality. Just because you write
00:21:29 --> 00:21:32 a law doesn't mean that law is going to automatically be applied.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:37 People still have to be in the mix, still have to make our democracy work,
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 still have to push forward to say that.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:44 You know, whether or not it's labor. We have, you know, if you look on the website,
00:21:44 --> 00:21:51 martyrsday.us and martyrsday.us, M-A-R-T-Y-R-S, day, martyrsday.us,
00:21:52 --> 00:21:59 you'll see we have just a diverse symbol of people who've been slain in this
00:21:59 --> 00:22:07 country for doing something as simple as picketing or wanting to get better wages on their jobs.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 So since we have an arc of time, we start off.
00:22:11 --> 00:22:17 Christmas addicts in the 1700s and go over time where we have people,
00:22:17 --> 00:22:18 Harry and Harriet Moore,
00:22:18 --> 00:22:24 were blown up in their homes on Christmas Day just in Florida,
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 Mims, Florida, just because they were registering people to vote.
00:22:28 --> 00:22:32 We can't just forget these people, and I think too many of us want to forget them.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:38 And so on the website, you'll see there are a diverse number of people by gender,
00:22:39 --> 00:22:41 by background, by social justice issues.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:48 1934, we had two longshoremen who were gunned down because they were in a strike for better wages.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 There are many ways in which people have protested and those different issues
00:22:53 --> 00:22:54 are represented on the website.
00:22:54 --> 00:23:00 So I just thought it was important that we see just how many people have died.
00:23:00 --> 00:23:01 This is just a small sample.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:05 There are hundreds, and actually, I believe thousands more.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:10 And so this is going to be an annual event, not just for the people we selected
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 for this cohort of martyrs, but each year we're going to have a different group.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 Well, you answered one of my questions before I even asked it,
00:23:19 --> 00:23:23 because I was wondering if you were just doing this for the 250th anniversary
00:23:23 --> 00:23:29 of the nation, or this is going to be a perpetual thing that you plan on doing.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:35 And that's great. That's great that you're going to keep it going. And you also mentioned,
00:23:36 --> 00:23:42 the list of martyrs that you have on the website, and it ranges from Crispus Addicts to Renee Good.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 So the question I have to ask you is, there's really two questions based on this.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:51 It's like, one, what is the commonality between those individuals?
00:23:53 --> 00:23:57 The push toward positive social change.
00:23:58 --> 00:24:03 So that's at the core of this, positive social change. Crispus Attucks,
00:24:03 --> 00:24:07 people may not even have known, was an enslaved person who was one of the first
00:24:07 --> 00:24:10 people to die for the independence of this nation.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:17 He was shot dead, you know, fighting in the very early stages of this nation's
00:24:17 --> 00:24:18 effort for independence.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:25 Renee Good, as people know, was protesting and she was actually in her car.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:28 She had come from a protest. She was in her car at the time,
00:24:28 --> 00:24:32 and when her life was taken by gunshot,
00:24:32 --> 00:24:41 when she had been protesting the denial of certain rights by immigrants in the
00:24:41 --> 00:24:44 country, some of whom could have been undocumented.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:50 But it was also the question of, were the ICE officials actually carrying the
00:24:50 --> 00:24:55 warrants they were supposed to have? And the protesters were trying to find
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 out, did they have warrants to take people, or you're just taking people by force because you can.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:02 And so, you know, she ended up.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:08 Dying because she was at that protest, leaving the protest, as a matter of fact.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:13 And there's still an investigation that's been halted because people haven't
00:25:13 --> 00:25:17 been able to get to the information. But the video that shows that she was driving
00:25:17 --> 00:25:21 away, she was not aimed at any of the ICE agents, even though it was said that
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 later. And that happens.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:27 There's always going to be different sides to a story, and the government has
00:25:27 --> 00:25:32 more resources and better able to get their story out and sustain it longer.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 But, you know, those people who were there said that she was not aiming her
00:25:36 --> 00:25:40 car, trying to hurt any of the ICE agents when she was shot.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:45 So, and once again, we have other people who have died at the hands of ICE at
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 protests, but they will be next year.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:53 So we, there are, and this is just right now, if you think about it.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:58 So if you, one of the aspects of Martyrs Day that we divided up because of the U.S.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 Supreme Court decisions We tell young people all the time, I don't know if you've
00:26:02 --> 00:26:06 told us, but we tell young people, people died for your voting rights. We say that all the time.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 So what we wanted to do was actually show the names and faces of people who
00:26:11 --> 00:26:17 did die for your voting rights. So it's not just this kind of vague concept that people died.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:20 These are the people who did die for voting rights.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 And we need to understand that those deaths.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:30 Were not some tragedy. Those deaths were intentional.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:38 Liuzzo, Viola Liuzzo was in her car. She had driven down from Detroit.
00:26:38 --> 00:26:44 She had come down to just help with the protests that were taking place in Selma,
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 Alabama, in the Selma to Montgomery march.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:53 She was driving one of the voting rights activists to the airport when white
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 supremacists drove her off the road, shot into the car, killed her,
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 and tried to kill the other person who was in the car. It was African-American male.
00:27:02 --> 00:27:07 That's the truth of the story. That is American history. And not telling people
00:27:07 --> 00:27:08 about it doesn't make it go away.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:13 You know, it just pours salt in the wound. But I don't want people to just stop
00:27:13 --> 00:27:18 at the death because I don't want people to say, oh, protest is so dangerous. So why should I protest?
00:27:19 --> 00:27:23 You know, just like driving your car is dangerous and you have car accidents
00:27:23 --> 00:27:27 that happen, but you still drive. We still protest.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:34 These lives that were taken were not martyrs because they walked into the battlefield
00:27:34 --> 00:27:36 thinking they were going to die. This is the difference.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:41 People sign up for military action. They know there's a chance that something's
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 going to happen to them if they're sent out.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:48 But those people who are protesting, and I've protested many times,
00:27:48 --> 00:27:52 I'm not trying to sign a death warrant when I go out with my protest sign.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:54 I'm exercising my constitutional rights.
00:27:55 --> 00:28:02 However, people can be martyred, meaning because they were in those particular situations.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:07 Either regular people out there who got angry enough to kill them decided to do so,
00:28:08 --> 00:28:15 which is what happened with Reverend Reeb, R-E-E-B, who was a Unitarian minister
00:28:15 --> 00:28:20 who had come down for the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, the second march.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:28 He was walking back to his hotel. He was jumped by a group of white supremacists and beaten to death.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 Beaten to death. Now, this is a white minister from Cambridge,
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 Massachusetts, who's in Selma, beaten to death because he's there to exercise
00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 his constitutional rights and support voting.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:42 Why are people there? Because they had been denying black people the right to
00:28:42 --> 00:28:46 vote to vote in Alabama and many other places in the South, but this is in Alabama.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:51 That's why he was there in the first place. He was there among hundreds of protesters.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:57 So they hadn't signed up to have their lives taken. They didn't lose their lives
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 because they were in military.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:06 They're regular people trying to exercise their First Amendment rights and trying
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 to get people to understand the injustices taking place in this country and
00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 move the country forward. Now we've moved forward.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 We've gone forward. Vernon Dahmer. Vernon Dahmer in Mississippi.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:22 It's said that it was the sheriff and other people who came to his home and
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 burned his home down with him in it.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:28 Why? Because he was helping poor farmers.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:34 This is a black man who was quite wealthy in Mississippi. He had a lot of farmland, had businesses.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:40 So he was able to pay the poll tax for the poor farmers, poor black farmers.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 So when the sheriff and other people found out that he was paying that poll
00:29:44 --> 00:29:49 tax that had prevented those black farmers from voting before, They came to his house.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:56 He was an NAACP president. He was somebody who had been very active in voter registration.
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 They came to kill him, and they ended up taking his life.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:03 He held them off long enough for his family members to get out of the house
00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 before the sheriff and others that burned the house down.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:11 He died of his wounds. But his phrase, Vernon Dahmer, he's on our website,
00:30:11 --> 00:30:15 watersday.us. His phrase was, if you don't vote, you don't count.
00:30:16 --> 00:30:21 These are the people I want other folks to hear, not just the young people, but anybody.
00:30:21 --> 00:30:26 When you hear that phrase, folks died or people died for your voting rights, go to the website.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 You can actually see the names, the faces, see short bios of the people who
00:30:30 --> 00:30:36 died for our voting rights. So I think the website, I think the purpose connected
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 to the 4th of July is important, that freedom isn't free.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:45 And the people did pay the ultimate price. Regular people paid the ultimate price.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 And they didn't intend to have their lives taken, but that's what happened.
00:30:48 --> 00:30:58 Yeah, as an alumnus of Jackson State University, there's two people that we
00:30:58 --> 00:31:02 honor every year, Philip Gibbs and James Green.
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 They were killed twice.
00:31:05 --> 00:31:12 Within weeks, days, really, it was the same time as the Kent State massacre.
00:31:13 --> 00:31:19 And so, you know, the nation paid attention to Kent State, but the same thing
00:31:19 --> 00:31:20 happened at Jackson State.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:25 And I remember as a young man, before I even got to Jackson State,
00:31:25 --> 00:31:31 there was a classic picture of Walter Mondale and Birch Bayh looking out one
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33 of the bullet shot out windows at the dormitory.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:36 Right where it took place.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:44 And if you go to Jackson State now, you'll still see those panels on that dorm.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:48 You know, of course, they replaced the glass and all that, but the panels up
00:31:48 --> 00:31:54 under the glass, you can still see where the bullets riddled the place.
00:31:54 --> 00:31:59 And so Philip Gibbs was a senior there, and James Green, unfortunately,
00:31:59 --> 00:32:04 was a senior at the neighboring high school, and he just happened to be on campus
00:32:04 --> 00:32:05 when the shooting took place.
00:32:05 --> 00:32:11 So we have a spot, Gibbs Green Plaza named after them, and every year,
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 because there were several other students that were wounded,
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 including Ms. Jackson State at the time.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:24 And she now has been an elected official for umpteen years in Hinds County.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:31 But, yeah, we do something. And the other distinction about that class was that
00:32:31 --> 00:32:34 because of the time of year it happened,
00:32:34 --> 00:32:39 they were the only class, class of 1970, that never got their diplomas until
00:32:39 --> 00:32:46 I think they finally had a ceremony for them about 10 years ago to finally award
00:32:46 --> 00:32:48 the survivors their diplomas and stuff.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:52 But they didn't have a graduation because of the magnitude of that.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:57 And then there was another man named Benjamin Brown. Again, this was a Vietnam
00:32:57 --> 00:33:03 era protest and Benjamin was leaving the protest.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:07 He had gone and got him some fish. There was a store called the Penguin Inn
00:33:07 --> 00:33:09 right across the street from the campus.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 He went and got some fish and was heading home to his family.
00:33:13 --> 00:33:17 And the police identified him as one of the organizers, I guess,
00:33:17 --> 00:33:20 of the protest. And they just basically shot him down in the street.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:28 And so there's a park named after Benjamin and right next to this old junior
00:33:28 --> 00:33:33 high school called Rowan over on the city's, I guess you could say, west side.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 So, you know, like you said, and especially from Mississippi,
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 there's so many names that you can bring up.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:46 But but I wanted to since we were having a conversation, I wanted to lift those names up.
00:33:47 --> 00:33:52 I'm glad you did. I'm glad you did. And I'm going to say for people who have
00:33:52 --> 00:34:02 names like that, send them to us at info at martyrsday.us because that's how we gather the names.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 You know, we have those nationally known figures, but these people,
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 there are so many deaths around the country, if you think about it.
00:34:10 --> 00:34:14 And we just keep going like it didn't happen. So I thank you for sharing that,
00:34:14 --> 00:34:15 and I've been writing it down.
00:34:15 --> 00:34:22 I thank you, because I can't know everybody, and we have local Martyrs Day events,
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 so people can have their own event like you have yours.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:31 And it could be any way you want it on July 5th. Those names might be lifted up again.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:35 One quick point, I talked to someone last week and she said,
00:34:35 --> 00:34:41 Oh, this would be great for me because my father was lynched and we always thought of him as a martyr.
00:34:42 --> 00:34:46 Can you imagine? This is not father, but grandfather.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:50 Their grandfather was lynched, and they said they always thought of him as a
00:34:50 --> 00:34:54 martyr, but they never had a place to put it.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 Where do you put this betrayal? Where do you put this pain? Where do you put
00:34:58 --> 00:35:01 this? And so thank you for that information.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:07 So my follow-up to the other question is, in your assessment,
00:35:07 --> 00:35:12 do you think that the American people currently have the mindset and the fortitude
00:35:12 --> 00:35:17 to make the sacrifices in order to create real freedom now?
00:35:18 --> 00:35:25 Well, it's never been everybody. It's always just been a small group that have ever done anything.
00:35:26 --> 00:35:31 They'll say it's like 3%, 5%, whatever it may be, but it's a small group.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:35 And then other people will just jump on board later.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:40 And then you have some who just the whole time, their plan is to wait for the
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 protesters and other people to do all the work, and then they just walk in the door once is open.
00:35:43 --> 00:35:49 And so, you know, but I think there are American people who will continue,
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 as you see, continue to protest.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 You know, they will continue to try to figure out how to use their voices,
00:35:55 --> 00:36:00 their bodies, their minds, their creativity, their alliances and resources to
00:36:00 --> 00:36:02 push the country forward.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:08 That's how we got here. So if you were to ask that simple question, how could we get from.
00:36:11 --> 00:36:17 1776 to 2026 without protesters. How do you think we got here?
00:36:18 --> 00:36:23 It's almost like people think it was a magic formula of some kind that all these
00:36:23 --> 00:36:27 very benevolent people just got together and said, yes, let's stop slavery.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:29 Yes, let's give women the right to vote.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:36 Yes, let's have these protections on our jobs so that people have good wages
00:36:36 --> 00:36:41 and they're not working in dangerous situations. Oh, yes, let's have food that's
00:36:41 --> 00:36:42 free of poisons and toxins.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 Yes, just let's do this. No, there are always protesters protesting along the
00:36:47 --> 00:36:49 way, pushing the nation forward.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:53 And it's almost as though as protesters, they've been behind the curtain.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:58 And now it's time to open the curtain and actually show there's an engine of
00:36:58 --> 00:37:03 people throughout this nation's history that have helped it to grow and go forward
00:37:03 --> 00:37:06 and become the nation the world sees it to be.
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 And that didn't happen by accident. That happened by a lot of work and then
00:37:10 --> 00:37:12 there were lives lost along the way.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:16 And that's what Martyrs Day is about, recognizing and paying tribute to the
00:37:16 --> 00:37:21 lives lost along the way so that we better understand the work that had to be
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23 done and the work that needs to continue to be done.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:25 But I've got to circle back to your question for this point.
00:37:26 --> 00:37:33 Do we have enough people who have a plan of those rights being protected to go forward?
00:37:33 --> 00:37:39 That's my concern. And that's why Martyrs Day is about memory about the martyrs,
00:37:39 --> 00:37:43 but it's also about a recommitment to go forward, a recommitment around our
00:37:43 --> 00:37:46 democracy, around our diversity,
00:37:46 --> 00:37:50 a recommitment around our health, around our literacy, around our communities,
00:37:50 --> 00:37:51 so that we can go forward.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:56 As a nation because the people who were protesting weren't protesting just for themselves.
00:37:57 --> 00:38:01 Heather Heyer wasn't protesting just for herself. She was a free white woman
00:38:01 --> 00:38:04 with a job and a life. She didn't have to do this.
00:38:04 --> 00:38:08 Dr. Martin Luther King had a PhD during a time period in which there were very
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11 small numbers of Black people with PhDs.
00:38:11 --> 00:38:17 He had a father with a church in Atlanta. He didn't have to do any of these things he did.
00:38:17 --> 00:38:21 He wasn't doing it just for himself. He was doing it for the community,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:23 it was doing it for the country to go forward.
00:38:24 --> 00:38:30 Do we have enough people who have forward-minded thoughts of where we need to go as a nation?
00:38:31 --> 00:38:35 That's going to be an interesting question. I think we do, but they have to
00:38:35 --> 00:38:40 realize that now is the time to step up and recommit to forward thinking,
00:38:40 --> 00:38:45 not just protesting against something, but protesting for something.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:50 Yes, they were protesting against the war, but they were also protesting for peace.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:55 So I think that's going to be something, and you have such smart listeners,
00:38:56 --> 00:39:00 that they can contemplate in the privacy of their own homes and figure out what
00:39:00 --> 00:39:02 role they're going to play.
00:39:02 --> 00:39:07 And once again, it's martyrsday.us is the website. They can go on and see the martyrs list.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:12 And as I said, it's a symbolized list of different issues, time frames,
00:39:12 --> 00:39:14 people, backgrounds, but also
00:39:14 --> 00:39:17 look at the materials and try to figure out what they want to do locally.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:21 Our program national program will be in new
00:39:21 --> 00:39:24 york at riverside church that's the church where Mandela
00:39:24 --> 00:39:28 spoke that's the church of social justice for over
00:39:28 --> 00:39:33 a hundred years and so new york city is where it is and the invitation rsvp
00:39:33 --> 00:39:39 is there on the website martyrsday.us and also we're looking for for community
00:39:39 --> 00:39:45 sponsors and other sponsors who want to support this work because the work you know, takes money.
00:39:45 --> 00:39:48 So people who want to give a contribution, whatever size that might be,
00:39:49 --> 00:39:51 we appreciate that as well.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:57 We have a 501C3 conduit that we are using. So it would be a non-taxable,
00:39:57 --> 00:39:59 you know, well, tax-deductible contribution.
00:40:00 --> 00:40:02 But I'm concerned about.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:07 Even the protests we have, whether it's no kings, American opposition,
00:40:07 --> 00:40:11 any of these protests, are they protesting just against?
00:40:12 --> 00:40:14 What are they protesting for? And
00:40:14 --> 00:40:19 these people were dying protesting for something, for a better country.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:25 So I hope that that's part of what folks who are going out to protest are thinking about.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:32 Yeah. So you mentioned the big, I guess, the official celebration.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 In New York, but what can one do to personally celebrate Martyrs Day?
00:40:38 --> 00:40:42 Here's the thing. We thought about that too. So there are local events,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:45 for example, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia,
00:40:46 --> 00:40:51 Highsville, Maryland, Lewes, Delaware, whether or not it's a big city or a small
00:40:51 --> 00:40:58 town, you can have your own local Martyrs Day event on July 5th.
00:40:58 --> 00:41:03 So we have information on the website. We have draft proclamations.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:07 You can go to your town, your city council, wherever it is and say,
00:41:07 --> 00:41:12 we want to support officially making July 5th Martyrs Day in our town.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:18 So we have draft proclamations that people can do for their town and then they
00:41:18 --> 00:41:21 can have a moment of silence. Here's what one town is doing.
00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 One town is showing the movie Till and having a discussion afterwards.
00:41:26 --> 00:41:31 Another one is going to watch the live stream of the national event and then
00:41:31 --> 00:41:32 have their own discussion afterwards.
00:41:32 --> 00:41:38 Because July 5th is a Sunday, there are Sunday services that are going to have
00:41:38 --> 00:41:42 a reading of the names that are on the website and include the names of any
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44 local martyrs from their town.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:50 So there are many ways. We have one group that they're going to have a moment of silence on July 5th.
00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 And so they're just going to take that time out to have a moment of silence
00:41:54 --> 00:41:59 and give a silent prayer on behalf of those people whose lives were taken to
00:41:59 --> 00:42:03 create voting rights, social justice, the anti-war movement,
00:42:03 --> 00:42:04 you know, better working conditions.
00:42:05 --> 00:42:08 There are so many ways in which protesters have made our lives better.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:12 Taking a moment of silence just to recognize some people did some work and paid
00:42:12 --> 00:42:17 the ultimate price for this inside the country, not just in a war outside the
00:42:17 --> 00:42:22 country. So those are ways in which people can have their own local Martyrs Day programs.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:26 And so we look forward to that. And there's information on the website,
00:42:26 --> 00:42:31 martyrsday.us, to look at how you can have your own local program and just ideas.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 Some people are going to have spoken word. Some people are going to have a little
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 program after their church. So they have the church service and afterwards.
00:42:39 --> 00:42:42 And then we have synagogues, where they're not, it's a temple.
00:42:42 --> 00:42:48 Whatever religious entity that you have, you can use that space on whatever
00:42:48 --> 00:42:50 day you want to have some type of program.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:56 So it's just a way in which people can make it their own as they have the 4th of July.
00:42:57 --> 00:43:02 They've made it their own in the way they want to commemorate the independence of this nation.
00:43:02 --> 00:43:08 People can make it their own to commemorate and pay tribute to those people
00:43:08 --> 00:43:12 whose lives were lost in creating the rights we have today.
00:43:12 --> 00:43:17 Lives regular people going to the store for butter and milk.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:23 And are going out to do a protest thinking that they're just going to carry a sign.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:27 And then what happens is, you know, part of history.
00:43:27 --> 00:43:32 But it's also because it's so delicate in this country to talk about protests by itself.
00:43:33 --> 00:43:37 Then it talks about people's lives lost in protests. These people have been
00:43:37 --> 00:43:43 like left behind in our discussions and we need to bring them forward. Yeah.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:49 Well, and you've been doing a good job of promoting the website and people want
00:43:49 --> 00:43:51 to reach out to you all about it.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 But go ahead and just say it again with the website where people can pull up
00:43:56 --> 00:44:00 because I saw that resolution. I didn't know if that was something that was
00:44:00 --> 00:44:02 already done, but that was a template.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:08 If you want to go to other you go to your city and ask somebody to make that proclamation.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:13 Yes. Yeah. So go ahead and tell people about the website again and how people
00:44:13 --> 00:44:17 can reach out to you or or reach out to the organization. Jason.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:27 The website is martyrsday, M-A-R-T-Y-R-S-Day.us.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:35 And it's .us, not .com, .us, because this is the first Martyrs Day in the United States of America.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:42 This is the very first one ever. So the United States now has its first Martyrs Day.
00:44:42 --> 00:44:46 We hope that it will become not just an annual event that takes place,
00:44:46 --> 00:44:49 but an annual event in which the federal government recognizes it.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:55 So those politicians who are listening, you know, we want you to put forward
00:44:55 --> 00:44:59 a proclamation, request for a proclamation to make July 5th martyrs day.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:03 Local government officials, people can go to the government.
00:45:03 --> 00:45:07 As you said, it's on the website, draft resolution, a draft proclamation.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:11 All of those things are on the website. So you can fill in your town and,
00:45:11 --> 00:45:16 you know, tweak it to make it work for your jurisdiction, and take it to your
00:45:16 --> 00:45:19 local politician. And it's martyrsday.us.
00:45:20 --> 00:45:26 And I think it's important that we recognize the lives lost in the labor movements,
00:45:26 --> 00:45:32 the lives lost in the civil rights movement, and the anti-war movement, so many movements.
00:45:32 --> 00:45:36 We've had people, regular people whose lives were lost. And this is the way
00:45:36 --> 00:45:38 in your town, you know who they are.
00:45:39 --> 00:45:41 And I've had people contact me
00:45:41 --> 00:45:47 by email, and that would be info at martyrsday.us, info at martyrsday.us.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:53 And they've told me about their mother, their sister, people who,
00:45:53 --> 00:45:58 their father, people who have lost their lives over time.
00:45:59 --> 00:46:01 And they're living to this day with this hurt.
00:46:01 --> 00:46:08 But it's also something as recent as an incident that took place in Maryland
00:46:08 --> 00:46:14 at the University of Maryland campus on that campus with Lieutenant Richard Collins,
00:46:14 --> 00:46:19 who was stabbed by white supremacists or stabbed by someone who was white and
00:46:19 --> 00:46:24 angry and found there was found to have white supremacists and anti-Semitic
00:46:24 --> 00:46:26 information on his laptop. house.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:30 So I'm not going to call him a white supremacist because even though he was
00:46:30 --> 00:46:33 charged initially, they thought he would be charged as a hate crime.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:40 Hate crime legislation came out of the protests after the death of this student,
00:46:41 --> 00:46:46 Bowie State student, who was stabbed while he was on the University of Maryland
00:46:46 --> 00:46:48 campus. He was going to go into the military.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:53 So he's on the website as well, Lieutenant Richard Collins.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:56 And this happened recently. This was 2017.
00:46:58 --> 00:47:04 So, so many things happened. And his mom is going to be part of the program
00:47:04 --> 00:47:09 that we do at Riverside Church on July 5th here in New York City.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:16 But you know, and I'm speaking to your listeners now, you know who those people are in your town.
00:47:16 --> 00:47:18 And it's always kind of hushed up.
00:47:19 --> 00:47:22 Because after it happened, after the lynchings happened, after the shootings
00:47:22 --> 00:47:24 happened, it's like it just goes away.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:28 But the pain and the hurt and the wound doesn't leave.
00:47:28 --> 00:47:32 And this is one of those ways in which it doesn't stop the pain,
00:47:32 --> 00:47:33 but at least addresses the fact
00:47:33 --> 00:47:39 that there is pain and that these people's lives were lost and are taken.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:46 And it gives them a proper place in society as opposed to being hidden away. Yeah.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:53 Well, Professor Gloria J. Browne-Marshall, I really, when you mentioned that
00:47:53 --> 00:48:00 to me, I really was excited to hear that and to hear you talk about it.
00:48:00 --> 00:48:05 I feel the passion. I know that you have written this incredible book about
00:48:05 --> 00:48:11 the history of protests in the United States, and this is really an extension of that work.
00:48:11 --> 00:48:16 And I know you know that, but for the listeners, because like you said,
00:48:16 --> 00:48:21 sacrifices have been made and we stand on the shoulders of those who,
00:48:21 --> 00:48:24 you know, made that sacrifice.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:31 And we stand shoulder to shoulder with a lot of people that that that were marching with those folks.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:37 So I greatly appreciate you You doing this to acknowledge those folks And I
00:48:37 --> 00:48:39 wish you much success And.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 And we'll, we'll see what's going on. I noticed Atlanta was not on there.
00:48:44 --> 00:48:50 So since I'm here in Atlanta, I guess I'm going to have to get the ball rolling here.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:53 Yeah. Yeah. You kind of put me on the spot, but anyway, we'll,
00:48:53 --> 00:48:56 we'll, we'll, we'll see what we can do down here in the black Mecca.
00:48:57 --> 00:49:01 But, but professor, I, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk about
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 it and really for the effort you're putting together and your,
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 your committee to, to, to, to pull this off.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:15 So hopefully this will get some people informed and maybe get some more events
00:49:15 --> 00:49:16 organized within the next month.
00:49:17 --> 00:49:20 Thank you. I thank you for giving me this time to talk about it.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:25 And we are making history and I feel it.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:31 And the ancestors are rising up because these people have been taken from us,
00:49:31 --> 00:49:35 but they're not gone. And their spirit is still in this country.
00:49:35 --> 00:49:38 And this country can't hide from us fast. is here.
00:49:38 --> 00:49:43 So I thank you for giving the opportunity to let people know martyrsday.us July
00:49:43 --> 00:49:48 5th, and go to the website, look under invitation if you want to watch the live
00:49:48 --> 00:49:50 stream, if you want to attend.
00:49:51 --> 00:49:57 And I'm looking forward to what Atlanta does. Atlanta, what's Atlanta going to do? Yes, ma'am.
00:49:58 --> 00:50:00 All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:26 We are back, and so now it is time for my next guest, Betsy Hodges.
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 Betsy Hodges was the 47th mayor of Minneapolis, Minnesota.
00:50:31 --> 00:50:35 Mayor Hodges currently serves as an advisor to cities, mayors,
00:50:35 --> 00:50:40 and a nonprofit and private sectors about how to support progressive policy
00:50:40 --> 00:50:44 and improve equitable outcomes for black, indigenous, and people of color.
00:50:45 --> 00:50:49 She is a senior fellow with the Atlantic Fellowship for Racial Equity,
00:50:50 --> 00:50:55 the Rodale Fellowship, and the Othering and Belonging Institute at the University
00:50:55 --> 00:51:00 of California, Berkeley, and was a residential fellow at the Harvard Kennedy
00:51:00 --> 00:51:01 School Institute of Politics.
00:51:01 --> 00:51:07 She is a senior advisor to the Mayor's Innovation Project, on the board of directors
00:51:07 --> 00:51:13 for the National Black MBA Association, and the Center for Good Food Purchasing,
00:51:13 --> 00:51:16 on the Elders Council for Race Forward,
00:51:16 --> 00:51:20 and on the board of advisors for the African American Mayor's Association,
00:51:20 --> 00:51:25 the MIT Policy Review Journal, and the Bruce Springsteen Archives,
00:51:25 --> 00:51:27 and Center for American Music.
00:51:28 --> 00:51:30 She has written about politics and race for the New York Times,
00:51:31 --> 00:51:36 CNN, USA Today, American Prospect, the Huffington Post, and others.
00:51:36 --> 00:51:41 She and her husband, Gary Cunningham, live in Silver Springs, Maryland.
00:51:42 --> 00:51:46 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 on this podcast, the Honorable Betsy Hodges.
00:52:03 --> 00:52:09 The Honorable Betsy Hodges, the 47th mayor in the history of the city of Minneapolis.
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 How are you doing? I'm doing all right. How are you doing?
00:52:13 --> 00:52:20 I'm doing good. I'm really honored to have you come on because you've had some
00:52:20 --> 00:52:23 experience as an elected official. I want to touch on that.
00:52:25 --> 00:52:31 And especially from the city that you had the distinction of leading.
00:52:31 --> 00:52:34 And then I want to get into the work that you've been doing,
00:52:34 --> 00:52:40 because I think it's very, very, it's always been timely in the history of America,
00:52:40 --> 00:52:42 but I think even more so now.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:47 So I definitely want to get into that. But I do do a couple of icebreakers to
00:52:47 --> 00:52:48 kind of get the conversation going.
00:52:49 --> 00:52:54 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:52:54 --> 00:52:58 And the quote is, Somebody, your father or mine,
00:52:59 --> 00:53:03 should have told us that not many people have ever died of love,
00:53:03 --> 00:53:09 but multitudes have perished and are perishing every hour and in the oddest
00:53:09 --> 00:53:13 places for the lack of. What does that quote mean to you?
00:53:13 --> 00:53:19 That's James Baldwin. It is at the end of all my emails that I send.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:24 And it's a reminder to me
00:53:24 --> 00:53:30 always to base my work around love that if love is not at the center of the
00:53:30 --> 00:53:36 work that I do that I have gone astray and that quote when I read it really
00:53:36 --> 00:53:43 was emblematic of that notion to me just this reminder that love is the most important thing.
00:53:44 --> 00:53:47 And to act like it in my life and in my work.
00:53:48 --> 00:53:51 Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's an awesome quote.
00:53:52 --> 00:53:56 Mine's done. My email doesn't end that profound. Maybe I should start doing
00:53:56 --> 00:53:59 that to make you feel more comfortable.
00:54:00 --> 00:54:04 All right. So now the, the second icebreaker is something I call 20 questions.
00:54:06 --> 00:54:10 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 And I didn't cheat. I know this is one of your icebreakers, but I haven't listened
00:54:14 --> 00:54:16 to every one of what those numbers are.
00:54:16 --> 00:54:20 So I'm just picking my favorite number, which is 11. Okay.
00:54:21 --> 00:54:26 All right. Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?
00:54:26 --> 00:54:35 Usually I go to the Internet, but I use my judgment in the replies that I get.
00:54:36 --> 00:54:39 Sometimes if it's a story or something, I'll go to Snopes.
00:54:39 --> 00:54:43 If I see something on social media, I see this doesn't sound quite right.
00:54:43 --> 00:54:46 I'll go to Snopes and double check it there, for example.
00:54:47 --> 00:54:54 Yeah, I tend to use Snopes a lot. A number of my guests and some listeners have
00:54:54 --> 00:54:56 told me about it and I started using it.
00:54:56 --> 00:55:02 It's supposed to be another source out there, Ground News. I haven't checked that out yet.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:04 Oh, Ground News is great.
00:55:05 --> 00:55:08 I am a i'm a subscriber to ground news that's
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11 that's mostly where i filter my
00:55:11 --> 00:55:14 news through because i wanted a combination
00:55:14 --> 00:55:22 of you know an awareness of the the verity of any of the sources that i was
00:55:22 --> 00:55:26 getting a story from and one of the things i love about blind news is they have
00:55:26 --> 00:55:30 something called the blind spot stories that are being more reported on the
00:55:30 --> 00:55:31 right than the left or vice versa.
00:55:32 --> 00:55:37 So I can get a sense of what is it that the right is listening to that the left is not?
00:55:37 --> 00:55:42 What is it that the left is hearing all about and the right is not hearing a single thing about it?
00:55:42 --> 00:55:48 And they are clear what, and they give you very clear criteria that they use
00:55:48 --> 00:55:55 to assess where a news outlet falls on the spectrum right to left and factual to non-factual.
00:55:55 --> 00:55:59 Okay. So ground news and blind news, you said. Okay. Okay.
00:56:00 --> 00:56:05 All right. I'll check those. Well, Ground News has something called the blind spot.
00:56:05 --> 00:56:10 One of the things they offer is they will give that assessment for you at Ground News. Yep.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:16 Gotcha. Okay. All right. So I like origin stories.
00:56:16 --> 00:56:23 So how did a young girl from Wyzetta, Minnesota, become a sociology major and
00:56:23 --> 00:56:28 then end up being the mayor of one of America's major cities?
00:56:28 --> 00:56:33 Let's see. I actually grew up in Minnetonka, but I did go to Wayzata High School,
00:56:33 --> 00:56:34 Minnetonka, Minnesota.
00:56:34 --> 00:56:37 If you're not from there, that is a distinction without a difference.
00:56:37 --> 00:56:40 But if you are from there, there's a little bit of a difference.
00:56:40 --> 00:56:48 But how did I? You know, I grew up—both of those suburbs are very wealthy,
00:56:48 --> 00:56:52 especially the part I grew up in, very white, very—.
00:56:53 --> 00:56:58 Middle-class, upper-middle-class, and owning-class suburbs of the city of Minneapolis.
00:56:59 --> 00:57:03 And I was going to junior high and high school in the 1980s.
00:57:03 --> 00:57:06 The greed is good, Gordon Gekko, 1980s.
00:57:07 --> 00:57:13 And I was very confused about what was going on around me, but I didn't have
00:57:13 --> 00:57:16 anyone to fully explain it to me in a way that I could understand.
00:57:17 --> 00:57:22 So for a whole variety of reasons, I ended up going to college on the East Coast.
00:57:23 --> 00:57:26 I went to an all-women's college named Bryn Mawr, Anassa kata,
00:57:26 --> 00:57:28 to any listeners who went to Bryn Mawr.
00:57:29 --> 00:57:35 And I took my first sociology class the spring of my first year there.
00:57:35 --> 00:57:38 And I knew I was going to be a psychology major. For a long time,
00:57:38 --> 00:57:42 I had wanted to be a psychologist, as young people who've gone through some
00:57:42 --> 00:57:46 challenging things often do want to end up being therapists and counselors.
00:57:47 --> 00:57:51 But I took the sociology course, because my friend Louis was taking it,
00:57:51 --> 00:57:54 and he just loved the professor, Judy Porter, who I knew.
00:57:54 --> 00:58:02 She was an old family friend of my parents, and I was blown away by what I heard in that class.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:11 She explained my life to me in terms that I could hear and understand and metabolize.
00:58:11 --> 00:58:15 She described how race and class function as systems.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:25 She talked and gender, and she just spoke sociology so fluently and in such
00:58:25 --> 00:58:27 a way that it was tied to our lives.
00:58:27 --> 00:58:30 One of the projects that we took on, that I took on in that first class,
00:58:31 --> 00:58:34 was I was given the budget of someone who was on.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:41 Food aid, and I had to go shop with that amount of money for,
00:58:41 --> 00:58:47 you know, for me or a family of four for a week just to get a sense of how far
00:58:47 --> 00:58:48 those dollars would stretch.
00:58:48 --> 00:58:52 That's the kind of hands-on professor that Dr. Porter was.
00:58:52 --> 00:58:57 And I immediately, it just, I immediately understood.
00:58:58 --> 00:59:03 I immediately understood the framework and the language of sociology in a way
00:59:03 --> 00:59:06 that I had not understood a lot of other things and ended up adding it as a major.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:12 And when I left college, I still thought that I was going to be a psychologist.
00:59:12 --> 00:59:15 I had gotten sober after my sophomore year.
00:59:15 --> 00:59:20 So I've been sober for 36 years and thought that I was going to be some sort
00:59:20 --> 00:59:26 of chemical dependency counselor and moved to New Mexico for no apparent reason,
00:59:26 --> 00:59:28 except I felt drawn to it.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:31 And that was a great place for me to go and for me to land.
00:59:31 --> 00:59:36 And while I was working at a home for people with major mental illness,
00:59:36 --> 00:59:38 I was working the overnight shift.
00:59:38 --> 00:59:43 I turned on the news, you know, I'd arrive at 10 and count out the pills and
00:59:43 --> 00:59:45 say goodnight to everybody and they'd go to bed.
00:59:45 --> 00:59:50 And I would just turn on late night television. And I found out that the officers
00:59:50 --> 00:59:56 who beat Rodney King had been acquitted and that there were uprisings that were
00:59:56 --> 00:59:59 happening in Los Angeles that had started a few hours earlier.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:05 And something happened to me that night. I understood, I was just talking with
01:00:05 --> 01:00:06 somebody about this earlier today.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:13 I understood in that moment that this was a series of decisions white people
01:00:13 --> 01:00:15 had made led to this outcome.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:21 My people, that this was a white people problem that I was witnessing.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 It may be other things or not, that's for other people to say,
01:00:25 --> 01:00:28 but I understood in that moment that this was a white people problem,
01:00:28 --> 01:00:32 that I was a white person, that I had a voice that other white people might
01:00:32 --> 01:00:37 be able to hear more easily than they could hear some other voices of people
01:00:37 --> 01:00:39 of color, people of the global majority.
01:00:39 --> 01:00:42 And I decided that that was what I was going to do.
01:00:43 --> 01:00:46 It really was almost a conversion experience that night.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 So that's what I did. I changed, I decided to become a sociologist instead of a psychologist.
01:00:53 --> 01:00:57 I applied to graduate school and went to University of Wisconsin-Madison.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:03 And while I was there, I worked with and was a teaching assistant for a professor
01:01:03 --> 01:01:08 named Joel Rogers, who had recently at that point won a MacArthur grant,
01:01:08 --> 01:01:09 a genius grant as they're known,
01:01:09 --> 01:01:13 for his work on high road policy and his focus in local government.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:18 And he made a very compelling case that local government is a powerful place
01:01:18 --> 01:01:19 to do social change work.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:23 And I took him so much at his word that instead of doing my dissertation,
01:01:23 --> 01:01:28 I was working on local political races and eventually moved back to Minneapolis
01:01:28 --> 01:01:32 and worked there in, you know,
01:01:32 --> 01:01:38 local government and progressive movement and eventually was asked to run for city council. And I did.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:44 When I moved back to Minneapolis, I moved to the white wealthy part of Minneapolis,
01:01:44 --> 01:01:47 in part because that's where my people were and that's where my leadership could
01:01:47 --> 01:01:49 be most effective on the issues I cared about.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:52 And eventually when I ran for mayor, I was explicit.
01:01:53 --> 01:01:57 In my platform and explicit as I campaigned that I was campaigning on a platform
01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 of racial equity. But that's how it happened.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:08 Okay. So now during your tenure as mayor, there were two high-profile police
01:02:08 --> 01:02:11 shootings in the Twin Cities area.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:19 Jamar Clark was in 2015, and Philando Castile was near St. Paul in 2016.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 So how did the Clark shooting, well, I have two questions.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:28 How did the Clark shooting impact your tenure while you were there?
01:02:29 --> 01:02:34 And what would you have done differently in dealing with the Minneapolis Police
01:02:34 --> 01:02:38 Department now that you've been away from,
01:02:38 --> 01:02:43 because, and I ask that question because, you know, I think about when I was
01:02:43 --> 01:02:48 in the legislature, should I have taken a vote on this particular thing?
01:02:48 --> 01:02:50 Should I have been more vocal about this particular issue?
01:02:51 --> 01:02:55 So, you know, you just kind of reflect in Monday Morning Quarterback yourself. So,
01:02:56 --> 01:03:01 Based on that, how did the Clark shooting impact your tenure as far as your
01:03:01 --> 01:03:03 agenda and what you wanted to do as far as racial equity?
01:03:04 --> 01:03:08 And what would you have done differently in dealing with the police department in hindsight?
01:03:09 --> 01:03:15 When Jamar Clark was shot and killed by officers Schwarzenegger and Rigenburg in November of 2015,
01:03:16 --> 01:03:23 following that, there was an 18-day occupation of the grounds of the 4th Precinct
01:03:23 --> 01:03:25 near where he had been killed.
01:03:26 --> 01:03:28 And managing through that was one of the
01:03:28 --> 01:03:31 most difficult things i've done as an adult getting
01:03:31 --> 01:03:34 to a peaceful end was one of the most difficult
01:03:34 --> 01:03:38 things i've done as an adult one of the most important things i've done as an
01:03:38 --> 01:03:45 adult and one of the most divisive things that has happened on my watch as an
01:03:45 --> 01:03:52 adult i you know i i understood i had come out of the community it was a very difficult time.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:56 There was another, I will add a third high-profile shooting,
01:03:56 --> 01:03:58 Justine Damon being shot and
01:03:58 --> 01:04:03 killed by Officer Noor in 2017 was also on my watch and very challenging.
01:04:04 --> 01:04:08 And so I did my best to govern well, to keep the city from burning down,
01:04:09 --> 01:04:13 to use, I was one of the first mayors to use 21st century policing principles
01:04:13 --> 01:04:17 to try and guide us through that difficult moment.
01:04:18 --> 01:04:24 And there were many advocates and activists and people on the left who were
01:04:24 --> 01:04:30 deeply unhappy with how I handled that moment because I was the head of the
01:04:30 --> 01:04:32 chain of command of the Minneapolis Police Department.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:39 And I knew that if I just railed against the police, that I would completely
01:04:39 --> 01:04:44 lose them and that it would not be useful for anyone. And,
01:04:45 --> 01:04:50 You know, in 2020, we saw what happens when you lose the police in a moment
01:04:50 --> 01:04:53 like that. They don't respond well.
01:04:54 --> 01:04:56 And so I governed the best I could through that.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:02 I'm proud that there was a peaceable ending, if not a negotiated ending to that conflict.
01:05:02 --> 01:05:09 But for the next two years of my tenure, protesters showed up to my public appearances.
01:05:09 --> 01:05:12 I was surrounded on stages. It was very scary.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:16 I mean, just personally, I understood.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:20 I understood what was happening. That doesn't mean it was supposed to be scary, and it was.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:26 And it was a very tumultuous term. But I navigated through that pretty well.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:35 And then, you know, in July of 2017, African Somali heritage police officers
01:05:35 --> 01:05:39 shot and killed a white woman named Justine Damond in the whitest,
01:05:40 --> 01:05:41 richest part of Minneapolis.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:46 And, you know, the white folks, understandably, got freaked out.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:53 And the election was a few months later, and I lost by about 600 votes. So it had a big impact.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 I don't, I understood at the time that,
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 You know, I'm a person in recovery. I would literally look myself in the eye
01:06:02 --> 01:06:07 in the morning and ask myself if I was willing to do what I needed to do to
01:06:07 --> 01:06:12 do right by the city and keep everybody as safe as possible and get through
01:06:12 --> 01:06:14 this well and give ourselves the option of doing better,
01:06:15 --> 01:06:19 even if it cost me politically, personally, professionally.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:23 And then I would look myself in the eye at the end of the day to see if I could
01:06:23 --> 01:06:27 because if I couldn't look myself in the eye, I had even bigger problems than losing a job.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:30 I also, my sobriety would be in jeopardy.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:38 And you asked what, looking back, I had already notoriously gotten into it with
01:06:38 --> 01:06:44 the police union, you know, from the very start of my tenure and that continued through the end.
01:06:44 --> 01:06:51 And, you know, I did my best to show the world how the police federation operates
01:06:51 --> 01:06:52 in the city of Minneapolis.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:58 I called the head of the union a jackass at one point. No, I did not call him
01:06:58 --> 01:07:01 a jackass. I said he exhibited jackass behaviors, which I think is true.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:05 I don't know him well enough to know if he is a jackass, though I have my suspicions.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:13 So, you know, I learned a great deal about how race functions by having to govern
01:07:13 --> 01:07:19 through those moments, doing my best to have integrity. I could see what my
01:07:19 --> 01:07:20 neighbors could not see.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:26 My white neighbors could not see. I could see the inside of the systems and
01:07:26 --> 01:07:29 how they function and why they function to get the results they do.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:34 And I did my best to put policies in place that made those changes.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:42 I, you know, some of the policies that the chief at the time and I put in place were instrumental in.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:48 Well, I put body cameras in place, and those were instrumental in the Derek
01:07:48 --> 01:07:55 Chauvin conviction and in the settling of the suits against the officers who
01:07:55 --> 01:07:56 watched and didn't do anything.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:03 So, you know, I would communicate differently than I did around Jamar Clark.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:08 And I did communicate differently when Justine—I had learned that lesson when
01:08:08 --> 01:08:10 Justine Damon was murdered.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:15 And that had its own problems because I had learned the lesson when a black
01:08:15 --> 01:08:19 man was shot but I was implementing a lesson when a white woman was killed and
01:08:19 --> 01:08:23 that understandably had terrible optics but what else could I do?
01:08:23 --> 01:08:26 I had learned the lesson so I implemented it. Gotcha. Okay.
01:08:27 --> 01:08:33 And you know, it's not an easy position to be in.
01:08:33 --> 01:08:37 I remember when some of my friends wanted me to be run for Mayor Jackson.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:42 I told them that No matter what the vote total was on election day,
01:08:42 --> 01:08:48 if I won, the minute I got sworn in, half of the city would be after me for something.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:54 And so I don't envy anybody that's ever been a mayor of any city, no matter how big it is.
01:08:55 --> 01:08:59 But I appreciate your candor on that. And, you know, like I know people,
01:09:00 --> 01:09:06 it's hard when you've done it and then you look back and you're like, you know.
01:09:06 --> 01:09:08 So, yeah, I appreciate that answer.
01:09:10 --> 01:09:16 Now, you're not in Minneapolis now, right? Currently, I'm in the Washington, D.C. area.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:18 Yeah, that's what I thought. I thought you had moved.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:25 But you don't live in Minneapolis now, but you do follow what's been going on.
01:09:25 --> 01:09:28 I know you followed the tragic events that have occurred.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:32 What is your thoughts about what's happened in Minneapolis this year?
01:09:33 --> 01:09:39 Well, I mean, the on-the-street executions of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode were...
01:09:41 --> 01:09:48 Shocking for everyone. I think it was especially shocking for white people to
01:09:48 --> 01:09:53 understand, first of all, that it's possible to put your life on the line for
01:09:53 --> 01:09:55 things you believe in and to protect your neighbors.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:00 Second, that the system will execute you for your proximity to that,
01:10:01 --> 01:10:04 especially when we're descending into authoritarianism.
01:10:06 --> 01:10:12 That, you know, I think a lot of people are inured to this idea that Black and
01:10:12 --> 01:10:20 brown people are seen as expendable by our systems because our systems were
01:10:20 --> 01:10:24 designed for white people at the expense of Black and brown people.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:27 And people of the global majority.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:30 But I think this idea that.
01:10:32 --> 01:10:39 Standing up against that can be risky for anyone was a shock to a whole bunch of people.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:45 And I know that two-thirds of Schwerner, Cheney, and Goodman were white men,
01:10:45 --> 01:10:52 you know, that those executions shocked the world in the 1960s at the time.
01:10:52 --> 01:11:00 And that white people have been part of every major movement on behalf of racial
01:11:00 --> 01:11:02 justice in this country from the beginning.
01:11:03 --> 01:11:09 And there are many who put their lives on the line. But we aren't taught that as white people.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:15 We aren't given that picture of whiteness because that is a picture of humanness
01:11:15 --> 01:11:20 more than it's a picture of whiteness. people whose humanity overrides their
01:11:20 --> 01:11:21 racial conditioning as white people.
01:11:22 --> 01:11:28 And so we aren't taught that because if white people's humanity could consistently
01:11:28 --> 01:11:33 override our racial conditioning, the racist systems that we have would not be able to stand.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:43 So it was shocking, but it was also a real way to talk about Trump's authoritarian agenda.
01:11:43 --> 01:11:47 What he's doing makes no sense through the lens of democracy.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:50 People who are trying to understand the Trump administration through the lens
01:11:50 --> 01:11:56 of democracy are really having to twist themselves into pretzels to try and explain it.
01:11:56 --> 01:12:01 But once you sort of like at the optometrist's office, you click it and you
01:12:01 --> 01:12:02 click it and all of a sudden you can see it clearly.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:07 If you click to the lens of authoritarianism, everything that's happening makes
01:12:07 --> 01:12:08 complete and total sense.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:14 And you can actually predict what happens next. So So I think it was atrocious
01:12:14 --> 01:12:16 from that human standpoint.
01:12:16 --> 01:12:21 Now, what is notable about that is much of my work, as I've said,
01:12:21 --> 01:12:24 for the last 35 years has been thinking about white people and what it takes
01:12:24 --> 01:12:28 to enroll us in the work of racial equity and racial justice. And.
01:12:29 --> 01:12:34 What was notable about what happened in Minnesota is that there were a lot of
01:12:34 --> 01:12:40 white people who immediately understood the assignment and acted on the assignment
01:12:40 --> 01:12:41 to protect their neighbors.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:48 That is unusual, historically, that that number of people came together that
01:12:48 --> 01:12:51 quickly to do the right thing, to feed their neighbors, house their neighbors,
01:12:52 --> 01:12:55 hide their neighbors from attack from the federal government,
01:12:55 --> 01:12:57 to put their lives on the line to do it.
01:12:57 --> 01:13:01 That is an example for the nation of what's possible.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:06 Not that we always have to put our lives on the line, but that we can understand the assignment.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:14 They understood, and many of these are people I know, they understand that if
01:13:14 --> 01:13:15 you're going after this neighbor,
01:13:15 --> 01:13:21 you're going after me, and I'm going to act like it before you go after me or
01:13:21 --> 01:13:23 while you go after me. Yeah.
01:13:24 --> 01:13:28 So that really leads to my next question, because you wrote in Medium that since
01:13:28 --> 01:13:34 1992, your mission is to enroll white people into ending racism,
01:13:34 --> 01:13:39 and your role in public service was just a tool to make progress.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:45 So my question is, do you see any tangible progress take root? And it sounds like.
01:13:46 --> 01:13:52 Based on that last answer that you have seen. I mean, you asked if I've seen
01:13:52 --> 01:13:55 progress in, I think, the last 35 years.
01:13:55 --> 01:13:59 I won't necessarily claim it on behalf of the work I've done in specific.
01:14:01 --> 01:14:07 One of the enduring questions that I have, and I have a book proposal to ask
01:14:07 --> 01:14:12 and give part of my answer to this question, is we keep seeing these renewed
01:14:12 --> 01:14:15 waves of white people's interest in racial equity.
01:14:15 --> 01:14:21 We saw one certainly after George Floyd was murdered, but you can go back. It's cyclical.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:24 It's about every five to seven years. There's this big wave of white people's
01:14:24 --> 01:14:28 interest in racial equity change that then recedes.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:29 It, it, it.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:34 Ebbs back, you know. It flows forward and then it ebbs back.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:38 And why is it that it ebbs back? Why is it? Because I know so many of these
01:14:38 --> 01:14:42 people and I know how much they actually do care.
01:14:42 --> 01:14:45 So what is it that's going on there? That is an enduring question.
01:14:46 --> 01:14:50 Why is it that we surge forward and then halt?
01:14:50 --> 01:14:55 And there's a whole bunch that I think goes into the answer to that question.
01:14:56 --> 01:15:03 But I will note that the systems are really well set up to absorb the revelations
01:15:03 --> 01:15:05 of white people at the pace that they're happening.
01:15:06 --> 01:15:12 The systems can absorb some number of white people understanding how the system
01:15:12 --> 01:15:13 of race works, including our own.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:17 We are part of our racial conditioning is many of us, most of us,
01:15:17 --> 01:15:20 I would say, are made very, very ignorant about race and how it functions and
01:15:20 --> 01:15:22 how whiteness functions in the world.
01:15:22 --> 01:15:24 By design, we're made very ignorant about that.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:29 As children, as we learn the norms of whiteness, one of the norms is don't ask,
01:15:29 --> 01:15:31 don't ask and don't talk.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:36 So the system can absorb us opening up our eyes.
01:15:36 --> 01:15:41 The systems can absorb us understanding that it's a systemic problem and not
01:15:41 --> 01:15:44 just a personal set of feelings and behaviors.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:52 And what is needed is to have the number of white people not only understanding
01:15:52 --> 01:15:54 what's happening, but taking action on it.
01:15:55 --> 01:16:02 And then having the numbers of us doing that exceed the system's capacity to
01:16:02 --> 01:16:03 absorb our revelations,
01:16:03 --> 01:16:11 because then we can effectively put our shoulder to the wheel of actual anti-racist policy.
01:16:11 --> 01:16:14 All right. So I've got a few more questions. I'm going to try to,
01:16:15 --> 01:16:18 Well, there's one I can't make quick because I'm quoting you on something.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:25 In a 2020 New York Times op-ed, you wrote, White liberals, despite believing
01:16:25 --> 01:16:30 we are saying and doing the right things, have resisted the systemic changes
01:16:30 --> 01:16:32 our cities have needed for decades.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:37 We have mostly settled for illusions of change, like testing pilot programs
01:16:37 --> 01:16:39 and funding volunteer opportunities.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:45 These efforts make us feel better about racism, but fundamentally changed little
01:16:45 --> 01:16:50 for the communities of color, whose disadvantages often come from the hoarding
01:16:50 --> 01:16:52 of advantage by mostly white neighborhoods.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:57 So my question to you based off that is, do you still believe that white liberals
01:16:57 --> 01:16:59 in America are blocking change?
01:17:00 --> 01:17:05 Oh, yes, absolutely. In part because I believe whiteness as a system is.
01:17:06 --> 01:17:10 Is problematic wherever it finds itself, left, right, center,
01:17:11 --> 01:17:13 wherever it is. Whiteness is a problem.
01:17:14 --> 01:17:20 And part of the reason I came to that belief or that observation was because
01:17:20 --> 01:17:25 you can look at most of America's large cities,
01:17:25 --> 01:17:31 most of America's major cities have mostly been governed by Democrats for the last 50, 60 years.
01:17:31 --> 01:17:36 And outcomes for people of the global majority in those cities are pretty much
01:17:36 --> 01:17:38 the same as they were 50, 60 years ago.
01:17:39 --> 01:17:44 That, you know, things that materially relative to white people in particular,
01:17:45 --> 01:17:49 things have not changed all that much for people of the global majority in American cities.
01:17:50 --> 01:17:58 And that led me down, that observation led me down a path to thinking about what is going on?
01:17:58 --> 01:18:01 You know, this question I have, What is going on with us?
01:18:02 --> 01:18:06 Because if I could understand better what was going on, I could understand better
01:18:06 --> 01:18:07 what we can do to change it.
01:18:08 --> 01:18:12 And what I came to understand was that we are conditioned as white people,
01:18:12 --> 01:18:18 that there's on the left part of the way the whiteness functions is there's
01:18:18 --> 01:18:25 a big cognitive dissonance between how we think the world should be and how it is and how.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:29 And what we think we should be doing and what we are or are not doing.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:31 We have a lot of cognitive dissonance.
01:18:32 --> 01:18:39 And the push of white racial conditioning is to resolve that cognitive dissonance
01:18:39 --> 01:18:41 by feeling better, but not by doing better.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:50 Because, you know, we want to feel better, so we do things that feel like they
01:18:50 --> 01:18:52 might have do something.
01:18:52 --> 01:18:59 But if we are thrust into actual policy change that would bring materially different
01:18:59 --> 01:19:05 outcomes for people of color, then we have to face change and change management.
01:19:05 --> 01:19:09 And nobody likes change that much. And we have to face our fears.
01:19:09 --> 01:19:14 We have to face the lies that we're told about what happens in a racially equitable
01:19:14 --> 01:19:19 future or the incorrect conclusions we've drawn about what might look like in
01:19:19 --> 01:19:23 a racially equitable future or what it might look like in the transition to one for us.
01:19:23 --> 01:19:26 We have to grapple with all of that.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:33 And we would rather feel better than do better in part because we're scared.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:41 There's a certain part of white racial conditioning is to be made scared about racial change.
01:19:43 --> 01:19:49 So do I still believe that? Yes, I sure do. I saw it as council member and I saw it as mayor.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:55 You know, that the example I like to give is there would be a whole bunch of people,
01:19:56 --> 01:20:02 white folks, wealthy white folks who really, really loved the summer intern
01:20:02 --> 01:20:08 jobs program that my predecessor started. And it's a great program and it should exist.
01:20:09 --> 01:20:12 It's for low-income kids, particularly low-income kids of color.
01:20:12 --> 01:20:17 They get placed in a business internship of some kind for the summer.
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 It's great. It gives people a job. It gives people the start of a network and
01:20:21 --> 01:20:22 a mentor. It's wonderful.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:27 It's also designed to accommodate young people to the system as it is.
01:20:27 --> 01:20:32 It's not designed to change the system in any way besides their presence in it.
01:20:33 --> 01:20:35 And I saw those same folks,
01:20:36 --> 01:20:44 lose their minds when the school board would propose changes to school funding
01:20:44 --> 01:20:49 that were designed to get better educational outcomes for kids of color.
01:20:50 --> 01:20:58 And that's the example that I come back to is this thing does not disrupt the
01:20:58 --> 01:21:00 system as it is, but it does make us feel better.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:03 This other thing is designed to actually disrupt the system as it is,
01:21:03 --> 01:21:05 whether it's a good plan or not.
01:21:05 --> 01:21:08 That's what it's designed to do. And these same families would just,
01:21:09 --> 01:21:10 and they wouldn't offer an alternative.
01:21:11 --> 01:21:14 They would just object to it. And I think,
01:21:14 --> 01:21:20 and I could just see that white racial conditioning at play and that in most
01:21:20 --> 01:21:23 of America's major cities, it's white progressives and liberals who are standing
01:21:23 --> 01:21:28 in the way of anti-racist policy change for the reasons I just outlined and more.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:34 So, is that an example of a term that you use, white sodality?
01:21:34 --> 01:21:40 You know, yes. I have taken to using this phrase, white sodality.
01:21:40 --> 01:21:44 A sodality is a group that comes together for the benefits of its members.
01:21:45 --> 01:21:48 And the word when I when I'm
01:21:48 --> 01:21:51 trying to talk to white people the word white supremacy is a
01:21:51 --> 01:21:54 non-starter even though I understand that people
01:21:54 --> 01:21:58 are trying to redefine it as just talking about the system of white supremacy
01:21:58 --> 01:22:04 it is so linked to history of white hoods and we have done such a good job of
01:22:04 --> 01:22:09 telling white people that since the civil rights movement that racism is a personal
01:22:09 --> 01:22:13 feeling and a personal set of behaviors if we don't feel that way and act that way then we aren't,
01:22:14 --> 01:22:18 engaging with racism in any way. And so...
01:22:19 --> 01:22:24 It feels very personal if somebody says white supremacy. And I've been in dozens
01:22:24 --> 01:22:29 of rooms facilitating pretty traditional DI curricula at this point.
01:22:29 --> 01:22:31 And I've seen it happen over and over.
01:22:31 --> 01:22:34 So I don't like using that phrase, but we need something.
01:22:35 --> 01:22:39 And the phrase whiteness is okay. I talk about whiteness as a system.
01:22:39 --> 01:22:44 I think that's more common. But I was invited to think of a phrase that would
01:22:44 --> 01:22:46 encompass all of those structural,
01:22:46 --> 01:22:54 systemic, and cultural aspects of whiteness and of race that didn't have the
01:22:54 --> 01:22:56 historical baggage of the phrase white supremacy.
01:22:56 --> 01:22:59 And so I use the phrase white sodality to talk about
01:22:59 --> 01:23:08 that bundle of culture and norms and systemic setup inside all of our systems
01:23:08 --> 01:23:14 that are designed to make people think that people of European heritage are
01:23:14 --> 01:23:18 superior in some way, including us, we're supposed to think that,
01:23:18 --> 01:23:23 and those systems are to get better outcomes for white people at the expense
01:23:23 --> 01:23:24 of people of color. Excuse me.
01:23:25 --> 01:23:29 So there's this guy running for the U.S. Senate in Kentucky named Andy Barr,
01:23:29 --> 01:23:36 and he had a blue commercial and he said it's a sin not to be white.
01:23:36 --> 01:23:39 I mean, it's not a sin to be white.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:46 And he refers to the diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives as dumb, evil, indoctrination.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:51 So how has that mindset been a challenge to the work that you do?
01:23:51 --> 01:23:54 That mindset is in part the reason for the work that I do.
01:23:56 --> 01:24:04 Because one of the things that white people do with one another is we fall into, we're using,
01:24:05 --> 01:24:10 if we're inside the system of race and racism, what you're supposed to do inside
01:24:10 --> 01:24:14 that system is take somebody's phenotype,
01:24:14 --> 01:24:17 like what they look like, their skin color or whatever it is,
01:24:17 --> 01:24:21 and we're supposed to attach characteristics.
01:24:21 --> 01:24:25 We're supposed to divide up the full array of human characteristics.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:32 We're supposed to divide them up and then assign and exaggerate them based on race, right?
01:24:32 --> 01:24:36 This thing that we've made up based on skin color that is completely consequential,
01:24:36 --> 01:24:37 but also completely made up.
01:24:38 --> 01:24:42 And what we're supposed to do is we're supposed to conflate the race,
01:24:42 --> 01:24:45 you know, the phenotype, the skin color.
01:24:45 --> 01:24:50 We're supposed to conflate that and wrap it around all the, you know,
01:24:50 --> 01:24:55 the small bundle of human characteristics, good and bad, that that group is allowed to have, right?
01:24:56 --> 01:25:02 That is what racism does, right? That I'm not going to sit here and recite racist
01:25:02 --> 01:25:03 tropes and stereotypes.
01:25:03 --> 01:25:06 You know what I'm talking about, right? That we white people are trained to
01:25:06 --> 01:25:10 think of Black people this way and Latino people this way and Native people that way.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:14 But we also think of each other that way. That.
01:25:15 --> 01:25:22 We wrap up, we take a person's full humanity as just off the table.
01:25:23 --> 01:25:27 In a system of race, a person's full humanity is no longer considered.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:29 And we do that with each other as white people.
01:25:30 --> 01:25:35 So we conflate the racial conditioning we've gone through as white people with
01:25:35 --> 01:25:37 who we are as full human beings.
01:25:38 --> 01:25:43 And unless we disentangle our full breadth of humanity,
01:25:43 --> 01:25:46 our access to every good human characteristic that's possible,
01:25:47 --> 01:25:51 as well as every negative characteristic that's possible, that all of us have
01:25:51 --> 01:25:54 access to all the breadth of human characteristics.
01:25:54 --> 01:25:58 Race is designed to cut that, winnow that down for us and makes us confused
01:25:58 --> 01:25:59 about ourselves and each other.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:04 If we're conflating people's full humanity with the racial conditioning and
01:26:04 --> 01:26:08 lessons we're taught as white people, if those two things are completely wrapped around one another,
01:26:08 --> 01:26:15 any criticism of white people's racial conditioning or the systems of whiteness
01:26:15 --> 01:26:18 feel like a criticism of our humanity.
01:26:19 --> 01:26:24 And so one really important thing I believe that we get to do with each other
01:26:24 --> 01:26:28 as white people is disentangle that for each other, that we are fully human,
01:26:29 --> 01:26:33 that our humanity is under a layer of social conditioning,
01:26:34 --> 01:26:37 but that's not the same thing as being absorbed by our racial conditioning,
01:26:37 --> 01:26:44 and that we can free up the lessons we learned about how to be white.
01:26:44 --> 01:26:49 We can free our minds so we can think more clearly about ourselves in the world.
01:26:50 --> 01:26:55 So in a world where those things are conflated, anybody hearing a critique of
01:26:55 --> 01:26:58 the systems of whiteness feels like it's a critique on them as human beings,
01:26:58 --> 01:27:00 and they react very, very defensively.
01:27:01 --> 01:27:08 And on the right, they have pathologized that. They have willfully misunderstood,
01:27:08 --> 01:27:14 I think, that people are talking about systems and not individuals.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:17 But it feels very personal to
01:27:17 --> 01:27:21 white people, and it feels personal to white people on the left as well.
01:27:21 --> 01:27:27 That's not what's intended, but that's part of, I feel, my work is to help disentangle
01:27:27 --> 01:27:31 those two things so white people can hear more clearly and take more clear action
01:27:31 --> 01:27:36 so that we can get rid of racism in the world. Yeah.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:43 All right. So this is a question I noticed that you ask, or it's a goal that you have set.
01:27:44 --> 01:27:50 So what is in it for white people to do the work of anti-racism?
01:27:51 --> 01:27:57 Well, I love that question, as you know, because, and the organization Surge,
01:27:57 --> 01:28:03 showing up for racial justice, is the largest national organization of white people,
01:28:04 --> 01:28:06 organizing white people around issues of racial justice.
01:28:06 --> 01:28:09 And they talk about the shared stake model.
01:28:09 --> 01:28:16 Dr. Heather McGee talks about the fallacy of the zero-sum model in her wonderful book, The Sum of Us.
01:28:17 --> 01:28:21 We are taught that race is a zero-sum game.
01:28:21 --> 01:28:26 We are taught that it's a charity, it's an act of charity for white people to
01:28:26 --> 01:28:32 do anything around racial equity, because if racism were to go away,
01:28:33 --> 01:28:35 white people would lose so much.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:39 And I disagree vehemently with that.
01:28:39 --> 01:28:44 I think the charity model is designed to be within the problem of racism because
01:28:44 --> 01:28:50 it obscures the fact that we are taught as white people that the comparison
01:28:50 --> 01:28:55 set to use is similarly situated people of color, particularly black people.
01:28:55 --> 01:29:00 That if we're doing, if I as a middle-class white person, I'm doing okay relative
01:29:00 --> 01:29:03 to middle-class black people, then I'm doing okay.
01:29:03 --> 01:29:09 A, no, we're not. B, that's a terrible way to look at the world.
01:29:09 --> 01:29:14 But C, the real comparison set for white people is a world without racism.
01:29:15 --> 01:29:22 And in a world without racism, white people are doing materially better as well
01:29:22 --> 01:29:23 as emotionally and spiritually better.
01:29:24 --> 01:29:30 Our outcomes in a world without racism, white people would be living longer, have better health.
01:29:30 --> 01:29:35 There'd be more money in our pockets. Our kids would be getting better educations.
01:29:35 --> 01:29:42 We sacrifice a lot of good outcomes for white people in the name of racism,
01:29:42 --> 01:29:44 in the name of getting better outcomes for white people.
01:29:45 --> 01:29:48 It's a complete tautology. It makes no sense.
01:29:48 --> 01:29:53 So if we work toward a world without racism, white people are better off in that world.
01:29:53 --> 01:30:00 We are giving up a great deal materially, as well as what it does to our experience
01:30:00 --> 01:30:04 of our own humanity, our capacity to be connected to the full breadth of people
01:30:04 --> 01:30:07 in the world, as well as each other and ourselves.
01:30:08 --> 01:30:12 Most of what we're going to lose, we've already lost, and we get to reclaim
01:30:12 --> 01:30:18 it through doing anti-racist policy change work. All right. So my last question.
01:30:18 --> 01:30:21 Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
01:30:22 --> 01:30:24 Ugh, let's see. I have hope because...
01:30:26 --> 01:30:30 A lot of reasons came to mind. That's why I'm hesitating. A key reason I have
01:30:30 --> 01:30:35 hope is because I see hopeless alcoholics get sober all the time.
01:30:36 --> 01:30:42 I know that it's possible for people to make big positive changes in their lives
01:30:42 --> 01:30:48 because I see absolutely hopeless, you never would think it could happen.
01:30:49 --> 01:30:52 Alcoholics and addicts get sober and clean.
01:30:52 --> 01:30:58 That's one of the reasons I have hope. The other reason I have hope is because I see all the time,
01:30:58 --> 01:31:04 I'm talking with people all the time of all different races who are working
01:31:04 --> 01:31:09 to make a positive difference in the world with each other and are working to
01:31:09 --> 01:31:11 get back to the beginning of our conversation,
01:31:11 --> 01:31:14 to base their work around love and not division,
01:31:14 --> 01:31:17 to base their work around belonging and not othering.
01:31:17 --> 01:31:20 I see that all day, every day.
01:31:20 --> 01:31:27 Well, if people want to get you to show up at their job or, you know,
01:31:27 --> 01:31:32 talk with you like I'm doing or whatever the case may be, how can people reach out to you?
01:31:33 --> 01:31:38 What's the name of your company? All that kind of stuff. And you got a website.
01:31:38 --> 01:31:41 Just let the people know how to get in touch with you.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:46 I love that you ask. Yes, I do have a website. It's just my name, Betsy Hodges dot com.
01:31:46 --> 01:31:51 B-E-T-S-Y Hodges dot com. You can get in touch with me there.
01:31:51 --> 01:32:00 You can also find me on LinkedIn at Betsy Hodges, on threads and Instagram, Betsy H11,
01:32:00 --> 01:32:04 the numeral one and the numeral one, Betsy H11, as I said, it's my favorite
01:32:04 --> 01:32:10 number, or on X occasionally these days, you can find me at Betsy Hodges.
01:32:10 --> 01:32:15 And I post a lot of information and a lot of videos there for people who want
01:32:15 --> 01:32:20 to learn more and all of those ways are easy ways to get in touch with me.
01:32:20 --> 01:32:23 I look forward to connecting with people because this is my mission and my passion.
01:32:24 --> 01:32:28 Well, Mayor Betsy Hodges, first of all, thank you for doing this.
01:32:29 --> 01:32:34 Let me be one of the people to congratulate you on your journey of sobriety.
01:32:35 --> 01:32:38 I also want to thank you for your public service.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:44 And I am really, really honored to talk to you and to know that you are out
01:32:44 --> 01:32:46 here doing this kind of work.
01:32:46 --> 01:32:52 I know it's not easy work, but somebody has to step to the plate and do that.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:57 And I'm really, really honored and pleased that you have taken the initiative to do that.
01:32:57 --> 01:33:05 And it's just been really, really cool to hear how you Because I like,
01:33:05 --> 01:33:09 when I talk to people I like to talk about and find out their journey How they
01:33:09 --> 01:33:11 got to this particular place,
01:33:12 --> 01:33:17 And, you know, I wish you much success Because Lord knows that we need it.
01:33:19 --> 01:33:23 Well, thank you so much And I'm very honored that you asked me to be on your
01:33:23 --> 01:33:28 podcast So thank you very much I really appreciate it And, of course,
01:33:28 --> 01:33:34 I always appreciate a chance to talk about what I think could help in the world. So thank you.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:37 All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.
01:33:56 --> 01:34:02 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Cecelia Thomas.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:09 Cecilia (CeCe) Thomas is Chief Policy and Advocacy Officer for NMAC.
01:34:09 --> 01:34:14 In this role, Cecelia leads NMAC's advocacy around HIV, AIDS,
01:34:14 --> 01:34:18 and other public health issues, including funding for prevention.
01:34:18 --> 01:34:25 Most recently, Cecelia served as Senior Government Relations Manager at Trust
01:34:25 --> 01:34:28 for America's Health, where she performed similar advocacy,
01:34:28 --> 01:34:34 and Manager of Legislative Affairs for Planned Parenthood Federation of America
01:34:34 --> 01:34:36 and Planned Parenthood Action Fund.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:42 At PPFA, Cecelia advocated to protect federal funding for health centers,
01:34:42 --> 01:34:48 implemented PPFA's legislative strategy, and co-led the National Sex Education Coalition.
01:34:49 --> 01:34:54 Prior to her time with PPFA, Cecelia was the Senior Advisor in the U.S.
01:34:54 --> 01:35:01 House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform and the Associate Director of Oversight at the U.S.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:03 Department of Commerce Office of the Secretary.
01:35:04 --> 01:35:08 She has also served on the staff of the U.S. House Committee on Veterans Affairs
01:35:08 --> 01:35:11 and the office of Senator Bernie Sanders.
01:35:12 --> 01:35:17 Cecelia received her J.D. from the Fordham University School of Law and graduated
01:35:17 --> 01:35:22 cum laude from University of Michigan with a degree in political science.
01:35:22 --> 01:35:27 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
01:35:27 --> 01:35:30 on this podcast, Cecelia Thomas.
01:35:42 --> 01:35:46 All right. Cecelia Thomas. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?
01:35:46 --> 01:35:49 I'm doing well. How are you? I'm doing great.
01:35:50 --> 01:35:57 Just ready for a lot of this madness to end, but I'm pushing through pretty good.
01:35:57 --> 01:36:03 And I'm going to talk to you about a little bit of the madness because you work
01:36:03 --> 01:36:09 in Washington, you work on the Hill, and you actually did work on Capitol Hill too.
01:36:09 --> 01:36:13 So I want to kind of talk to you a little bit about that, but I really want
01:36:13 --> 01:36:17 to talk about the organization that you represent, which is NMAC,
01:36:17 --> 01:36:21 and get into the good work that y'all are doing.
01:36:22 --> 01:36:27 But first, I do a couple of icebreakers to kind of get the conversation going.
01:36:28 --> 01:36:32 So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
01:36:32 --> 01:36:38 And the quote is, the fight for equity remains as urgent as ever.
01:36:39 --> 01:36:42 I mean, that quote is right on point.
01:36:43 --> 01:36:48 I mean, there's no other way to respond other than the fight for equity has
01:36:48 --> 01:36:52 been ongoing since the beginning, since we got here and by we,
01:36:52 --> 01:36:53 you know, people of color.
01:36:53 --> 01:37:00 But as we are seeing now, the fight for equity is at a high because the rights
01:37:00 --> 01:37:03 and the freedoms that have been fought for,
01:37:03 --> 01:37:07 the fact that I can be sitting here on a podcast with you in the position that
01:37:07 --> 01:37:10 I'm in right now, are being rolled back.
01:37:10 --> 01:37:18 And so it's hard for a generation that didn't see the before to now be seeing the cutbacks.
01:37:18 --> 01:37:23 And that's going for, you know, my generation and the generations that are below me.
01:37:24 --> 01:37:29 So that is even more the reason why people like myself do this work.
01:37:29 --> 01:37:32 Not so much even for ourselves but for
01:37:32 --> 01:37:35 those beneath us that are going to have to
01:37:35 --> 01:37:38 live with knowing that there was a world where there were some freedoms
01:37:38 --> 01:37:41 that were now being taken back and so that's why
01:37:41 --> 01:37:45 we stay in this fight yeah all right
01:37:45 --> 01:37:51 so now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions oh boy yeah so I need
01:37:51 --> 01:37:58 you to give me a number between 1 and 20 let's go 12 12 what What advice do
01:37:58 --> 01:38:02 you have for recognizing fake news and propaganda,
01:38:02 --> 01:38:04 misinformation, disinformation?
01:38:05 --> 01:38:12 What advice do I give? Well, I think something that I have learned now is if it sounds funny,
01:38:13 --> 01:38:18 If it sounds outlandish, it probably is. If you're looking at a number and it's
01:38:18 --> 01:38:21 like, that looks a little high and that doesn't really make sense.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:26 I think that that is probably a flag that this may not be true.
01:38:26 --> 01:38:30 And so I have always been like, what is the source?
01:38:30 --> 01:38:37 And so we have kind of been, we're now in a position in our world where people
01:38:37 --> 01:38:41 just say things and there's no source, there's no site.
01:38:41 --> 01:38:45 It's like, that's all YouTube video. So if it sounds outlandish, it probably is.
01:38:46 --> 01:38:49 That's my first bit of advice. Okay.
01:38:50 --> 01:38:55 All right, Cece. So when you enrolled at the University of Michigan,
01:38:56 --> 01:38:59 was your mind made up that you were going to major in political science?
01:39:00 --> 01:39:08 I love this question. So no, it was not. I got to University of Michigan thinking
01:39:08 --> 01:39:13 I had an idea what I wanted to do. I knew I loved history, but I also knew that
01:39:13 --> 01:39:15 that probably wasn't the biggest moneymaker.
01:39:15 --> 01:39:22 So I'd go, and one of the things that influenced me was the affirmative action
01:39:22 --> 01:39:25 decision that took place in,
01:39:25 --> 01:39:31 I graduated in 2005, so it had to have been 2003.
01:39:32 --> 01:39:39 So a bunch of us got on the bus from Ann Arbor to Washington, D.C.
01:39:39 --> 01:39:42 To protest outside of the Supreme Court.
01:39:42 --> 01:39:48 And this was, you know, the fight for affirmative action, which has now been undone since that time.
01:39:48 --> 01:39:51 But at the time, the ruling was largely in our favor.
01:39:51 --> 01:39:55 So Michigan was the test case where the case was brought.
01:39:55 --> 01:39:58 And so a lot of the activist groups,
01:39:59 --> 01:40:05 basically just put us on a bus for one day. We went all the way through the night, got to D.C..
01:40:06 --> 01:40:08 Protested, and these are the things you can do when you're 21,
01:40:09 --> 01:40:14 and then just got back on the bus and came back to Ann Arbor because we didn't have no money.
01:40:14 --> 01:40:18 So essentially, that's when I was like, okay, I like this. Like,
01:40:18 --> 01:40:20 I like this type of caring.
01:40:20 --> 01:40:25 So I knew that I was like, let me look more into that.
01:40:25 --> 01:40:29 So political science and history can pretty much, I don't want to say go hand
01:40:29 --> 01:40:32 in hand, but they feed off of each other.
01:40:33 --> 01:40:37 You get to know how we got here to get to know how this system was put together.
01:40:37 --> 01:40:41 So I was a political science major and a history minor.
01:40:42 --> 01:40:47 So once I got past my core classes, I was in my own nerdy heaven.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:54 So yeah, this is when I knew that I was going to probably major in political
01:40:54 --> 01:40:55 science after that experience.
01:40:55 --> 01:40:58 So that was my sophomore year. So I declared that in my junior year.
01:40:59 --> 01:41:04 So now are you from Michigan or where did you, where, where? I am. Yes, I am. Detroit.
01:41:05 --> 01:41:10 Okay. All right. So you stay local. A lot of, I'm a lot of Michiganders are
01:41:10 --> 01:41:12 very, very local. I noticed that.
01:41:13 --> 01:41:17 Why, why do you think that is? You mean when, you know, going to Michigan or.
01:41:17 --> 01:41:20 Well, I mean, like. I live here now. I
01:41:20 --> 01:41:23 live in dc now but yes a lot of us you mean
01:41:23 --> 01:41:26 like when we graduate or just yeah it's
01:41:26 --> 01:41:31 like it's what i've noticed is that especially like if they're in detroit flint
01:41:31 --> 01:41:37 lansing area a lot of y'all will go to you y'all would stay in detroit and then
01:41:37 --> 01:41:42 go to college and then you'll branch off somewhere else if you decide to go
01:41:42 --> 01:41:45 but a lot of people especially those i've noticed like in politics.
01:41:46 --> 01:41:51 They just stay. It's like, okay, I'm here. I, you know, they might travel the
01:41:51 --> 01:41:53 world and all that, but they're going to stay in Detroit.
01:41:53 --> 01:42:02 So I just, I just wondered what, what is, what is the appeal of staying close
01:42:02 --> 01:42:05 to home all the way through college for a mix of men?
01:42:06 --> 01:42:09 For us, I think, well, first.
01:42:10 --> 01:42:16 Just to shout out my hometown, Detroit is a very unique and wonderful place.
01:42:17 --> 01:42:22 So if you grew up there in the 90s and 2000s, you know how unique it was.
01:42:23 --> 01:42:28 So for all of the issues that the city has had, it really does teach you a lot
01:42:28 --> 01:42:31 and it binds you kind of with community.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:35 You know, when you don't have a ton, you have community.
01:42:35 --> 01:42:40 So that is how we are such. And if you talk to someone from Detroit,
01:42:40 --> 01:42:42 you're going to know her from Detroit very quickly.
01:42:43 --> 01:42:48 So that's part of it. And then you have, you know, like a top rated school just
01:42:48 --> 01:42:52 right up the street. And then you have Michigan State about an hour and a half away.
01:42:53 --> 01:42:58 So, you know, an hour and a half from Michigan. So Michigan's 45 minutes to an hour.
01:42:59 --> 01:43:02 Then you have, you know, just an hour and a half up the road.
01:43:02 --> 01:43:06 You have Michigan State. So it's a very, and for those of us where money is
01:43:06 --> 01:43:11 a concern, you know, why go anywhere and spend money you don't need to when
01:43:11 --> 01:43:13 you're getting a quality education.
01:43:14 --> 01:43:16 Then you also have Eastern Michigan down the street from Michigan.
01:43:16 --> 01:43:22 So you have a lot of good schools in the area where,
01:43:22 --> 01:43:26 especially for people like me and my friends where, you know,
01:43:26 --> 01:43:30 money was an issue and we needed to go somewhere that was affordable,
01:43:30 --> 01:43:34 but also could take us to the next level. University of Michigan.
01:43:34 --> 01:43:40 I am a proud Michigan alum. Everyone who knows me knows that it was right there.
01:43:40 --> 01:43:41 So that's why we stay local largely.
01:43:42 --> 01:43:48 Yeah. Okay. Because I'm from Chicago and I say Chicago is like a half and half city.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:53 Like half of us will stay and go to college, but the other half,
01:43:53 --> 01:43:55 we act like we're ambassadors.
01:43:55 --> 01:43:59 We're just going to go out in the world and it goes to where I went to Jackson
01:43:59 --> 01:44:05 State, but about half of my class went to some school in Illinois.
01:44:06 --> 01:44:09 So I just, you know, because it's been other people I've had.
01:44:10 --> 01:44:14 From Michigan on the show. And when you go through their background,
01:44:14 --> 01:44:18 it's like, oh, they just never left. Okay.
01:44:20 --> 01:44:23 How did your path in politics lead you to become a lobbyist?
01:44:24 --> 01:44:29 Oh, so we only have so much time, so I'll give you the quick version.
01:44:30 --> 01:44:39 But my path in politics. So after law school, I went to a law firm and when
01:44:39 --> 01:44:41 I graduated law school, it was 2008.
01:44:41 --> 01:44:43 So hold that date in your mind.
01:44:44 --> 01:44:50 So when I started my job at the law firm, it was the day Lehman Brothers crashed.
01:44:50 --> 01:44:58 So they're like, everything is fine. Everything will be OK. Now we know that was not true.
01:44:58 --> 01:45:04 So then I was laid off several months later as everything was collapsing in New York City.
01:45:04 --> 01:45:07 And I think I should probably mention that I was at Fordham University.
01:45:07 --> 01:45:11 So from University of Michigan, I went to law school in New York,
01:45:11 --> 01:45:13 which was great. It was wonderful.
01:45:13 --> 01:45:16 But then the economy collapsed and I was like, what am I supposed to do?
01:45:16 --> 01:45:22 So from there, I went to after many months of looking and trying to figure out
01:45:22 --> 01:45:25 my life, I came down to D.C.
01:45:25 --> 01:45:29 To take an internship with Senator Gillibrand. from New York State.
01:45:29 --> 01:45:35 And that was my intro. So I went from being an associate in a law firm to being
01:45:35 --> 01:45:41 an illegal intern within a few months. So I was like, okay, well, this better work.
01:45:42 --> 01:45:48 I'm coming down to DC from New York with a lot of nothing. So this better work.
01:45:48 --> 01:45:51 And it did. I got my internship. And then within a couple months,
01:45:51 --> 01:45:57 I started my first job with Bernie Sanders as a legislative correspondent.
01:45:58 --> 01:46:04 And I worked my way up from there. So from that point, I spent the most of my
01:46:04 --> 01:46:11 time with the House Oversight Committee under Congressman Elijah Cummings from Baltimore.
01:46:11 --> 01:46:16 And he became my mentor and, you know, a boss and all the things.
01:46:17 --> 01:46:21 And, you know, we could do a whole podcast on him alone. But that experience,
01:46:22 --> 01:46:28 that five years is really what shaped me to start doing my, to start moving into advocacy.
01:46:28 --> 01:46:34 So I had that job five years. Then I went and did oversight for the Obama administration
01:46:34 --> 01:46:36 for the Department of Commerce.
01:46:37 --> 01:46:39 Then Trump won.
01:46:40 --> 01:46:43 So here we are and I skipped a
01:46:43 --> 01:46:46 lot of stuff along the way I'm just giving you the the high level
01:46:46 --> 01:46:52 but so now I'm out of a job again and so now I'm like what am I doing they we
01:46:52 --> 01:46:57 they have a trifecta much like they have now except I didn't have the resume
01:46:57 --> 01:47:06 that I had that I have now so I am out of work for about six months and looking for work.
01:47:06 --> 01:47:08 And thankfully, Mr. Cummings lets me come back.
01:47:08 --> 01:47:16 So I'm not completely out there, but I basically then start looking for advocacy
01:47:16 --> 01:47:19 jobs and I got my job at Planned Parenthood.
01:47:19 --> 01:47:21 And that's when during Trump won.
01:47:21 --> 01:47:26 And that's when I started. That's when I started my lobbying career.
01:47:27 --> 01:47:31 Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was that was the right time to be at Planned Parenthood,
01:47:31 --> 01:47:34 it seemed like, during that first administration.
01:47:35 --> 01:47:38 So like you said, you worked on Capitol Hill for a number of years.
01:47:38 --> 01:47:44 What is the most glaring difference you see now as compared to when you worked there?
01:47:44 --> 01:47:51 The glaring difference now is there is absolutely no real working together.
01:47:51 --> 01:47:57 And not that it was great when I was there, because I was there during the rise of the tea party.
01:47:57 --> 01:48:03 So this is when we started seeing the gridlock that we're seeing now,
01:48:03 --> 01:48:05 but it wasn't to this level.
01:48:05 --> 01:48:11 Now we have reached a point where if you say X, I'm going to say Y just reflexively,
01:48:11 --> 01:48:15 because that's just what it is. and now with the rise of Trumpism,
01:48:16 --> 01:48:19 and now we're seeing what's happening in these midterm elections.
01:48:19 --> 01:48:24 You know, now if you speak out in any way against the president.
01:48:25 --> 01:48:27 He will come for your career.
01:48:27 --> 01:48:34 So, you know, we have a lot of rank and file just in the last two weeks considered rank and file.
01:48:34 --> 01:48:36 Now they would not have been considered rank and file.
01:48:37 --> 01:48:41 You know, they wouldn't have been considered, you know, kind of mainstream Republicans
01:48:41 --> 01:48:46 10 years ago. They are very conservative, but now they just weren't MAGA enough.
01:48:46 --> 01:48:49 So they have lost their seats, right?
01:48:50 --> 01:48:56 Just the other day, you know, Bill Paxton won against, you know,
01:48:56 --> 01:48:57 the current sitting senator.
01:48:57 --> 01:49:02 So at the same time, we're looking at, if you don't back me 100%,
01:49:02 --> 01:49:03 I'm going to come for your career.
01:49:04 --> 01:49:09 And so that has definitely made a difference. That was not the case when I was
01:49:09 --> 01:49:15 there years ago. So how much of a challenge has the current political climate
01:49:15 --> 01:49:16 been to your work as a lobbyist?
01:49:17 --> 01:49:25 It's been a challenge because you are trying to cut through a lot of the noise with just sound policy.
01:49:26 --> 01:49:31 And what that means is you're trying to talk to the other side of the aisle
01:49:31 --> 01:49:34 about things that they may agree with.
01:49:34 --> 01:49:38 That's the thing that's crazy. It's like you will go to an office and they'll
01:49:38 --> 01:49:39 say, you know, this is a great idea.
01:49:39 --> 01:49:43 This is a great plan. But nothing will happen because due to politics,
01:49:43 --> 01:49:46 there's nothing that they can really do.
01:49:47 --> 01:49:51 So they can agree. I totally agree with this. You know, I agree with this bill.
01:49:52 --> 01:49:54 Nothing we're going to be able to. We can't support it out loud.
01:49:55 --> 01:50:00 So that's the part that's frustrating because, you know, when people on the
01:50:00 --> 01:50:01 outside, you just see all this gridlock.
01:50:01 --> 01:50:07 What you're not seeing is there are people on both sides of the aisle that agree
01:50:07 --> 01:50:12 with things, but there's nothing you can do when you are just put on this side
01:50:12 --> 01:50:14 and this side and nobody can budge.
01:50:14 --> 01:50:17 And if you do budge, you will face consequences from leadership.
01:50:18 --> 01:50:25 And that's really a shame. The senator that just lost, Senator Cornyn from Texas.
01:50:26 --> 01:50:30 And Eric, this is crazy that I'm even saying this because I am like a dye in
01:50:30 --> 01:50:32 the wool, blue Democrat.
01:50:32 --> 01:50:38 But he pretty much lost his seat by just not agreeing 100 percent with the president.
01:50:39 --> 01:50:41 He agreed with him 98 percent of the time.
01:50:42 --> 01:50:44 And that cost him his seat.
01:50:45 --> 01:50:47 So that's what is very new.
01:50:48 --> 01:50:52 Yeah, I know. And I know it's a certain art form.
01:50:52 --> 01:50:57 You know, I've been on both ends. I had the distinction of being the policy
01:50:57 --> 01:51:03 director for the ACLU in Mississippi, and I was a state legislator before that.
01:51:05 --> 01:51:11 And, you know, I remember going up to the Hill to lobby for something when I was a state legislator.
01:51:12 --> 01:51:15 And I remember I was with this lady.
01:51:16 --> 01:51:21 And the congressman, you remember Danny Davis, right?
01:51:21 --> 01:51:25 Yes. So Danny, growing up in Chicago, I knew who he was.
01:51:25 --> 01:51:30 I think he had met me once, right? But I had been in Mississippi a lot by that
01:51:30 --> 01:51:31 time when he was up there.
01:51:32 --> 01:51:36 And so it was a white lady and she was just going in strictly on the issue.
01:51:36 --> 01:51:42 And you could see that burrow, that frown.
01:51:44 --> 01:51:48 And, and he's got that incredible baritone voice. And he was just saying,
01:51:48 --> 01:51:51 well, ma'am. And, and she kept cutting him off.
01:51:51 --> 01:51:56 And I said, why don't you go step outside for a minute? Let me talk to the Congressman. Right.
01:51:57 --> 01:52:02 And so she stepped outside and he just, where did you find her?
01:52:02 --> 01:52:07 And blah, blah. I said, look, Congressman, it's, you know, and I just basically
01:52:07 --> 01:52:12 explained what she was talking about, but it was a different vibe.
01:52:12 --> 01:52:12 You know what I'm saying?
01:52:12 --> 01:52:15 One, because I was an elected official, you know, like him.
01:52:16 --> 01:52:19 So, you know, there was a certain parlance we had and, and, and,
01:52:20 --> 01:52:25 you know, he was, he was supportive of what we wanted, but, you know,
01:52:25 --> 01:52:28 it was just like, he just said, when I left, he said, whatever you do,
01:52:28 --> 01:52:31 man, don't go anywhere else with her. I said, yes, sir, Congressman, I got you.
01:52:32 --> 01:52:36 You know what I'm saying? But it was just, uh, it's, it's just,
01:52:36 --> 01:52:39 It's just a different skill set.
01:52:39 --> 01:52:43 But what I'm hearing from you now is that even with that,
01:52:43 --> 01:52:49 you know what I'm saying, it's just hard to get stuff done because people are
01:52:49 --> 01:52:55 so entrenched in their positions or they don't have the latitude to really be
01:52:55 --> 01:52:57 congressmen and congresswomen.
01:52:58 --> 01:53:02 Exactly. There's no real movement. There's no real movement.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:09 There's no wiggle room. So, you know, you have people who want to actually move
01:53:09 --> 01:53:13 legislation forward, who actually want to legislate and do the work they were
01:53:13 --> 01:53:16 elected to do, but you're kind of boxed in at this point.
01:53:16 --> 01:53:21 And so, you know, the real movement is going to happen with people in the willing
01:53:21 --> 01:53:27 middle, you know, to come together and say, you know, we have to find some common ground.
01:53:27 --> 01:53:30 And right now that's not even really on the table.
01:53:31 --> 01:53:35 So, yeah. All right. So what is NMAC?
01:53:36 --> 01:53:42 Well, NMAC, formerly known as the National Minority AIDS Council,
01:53:42 --> 01:53:47 NMAC has been around for the last 39 years.
01:53:48 --> 01:53:52 And the HIV epidemic has been with us for 45 years.
01:53:53 --> 01:53:57 So NMAC came very shortly after the AIDS crisis began.
01:53:58 --> 01:54:04 And really, NMAC filled a void because in the beginning, the focus was white
01:54:04 --> 01:54:06 gay men in California and New York.
01:54:07 --> 01:54:13 And as we know, that is not the only place that people with HIV and AIDS were existing.
01:54:13 --> 01:54:19 And that is not the community that was the only community that was being impacted.
01:54:19 --> 01:54:25 So NMAC came to kind of fill the gap and to really focus on care and treatment
01:54:25 --> 01:54:31 and visibility for minorities that are the Black and brown community,
01:54:31 --> 01:54:35 especially that were being disproportionately impacted by the epidemic.
01:54:35 --> 01:54:37 So that is NMAC's history.
01:54:38 --> 01:54:44 And for these years, done amazing work and has, you know, really lifted up a
01:54:44 --> 01:54:51 community that wasn't being acknowledged hardly at all, but was impacted and
01:54:51 --> 01:54:53 dying in heavy and large rates.
01:54:53 --> 01:55:00 So right now, where I come in is under the leadership of Harold Phillips, our CEO.
01:55:00 --> 01:55:05 I am the chief policy and advocacy officer and Max First in that position.
01:55:05 --> 01:55:11 And we are right now trying to expand our focus. And what I mean by that is
01:55:11 --> 01:55:16 we're always going to be an organization that focuses on HIV and AIDS policy,
01:55:16 --> 01:55:18 treatment, and services.
01:55:18 --> 01:55:23 But now we're expanding, and as the moment calls for, as we were just speaking
01:55:23 --> 01:55:26 about, we're expanding into the whole person.
01:55:26 --> 01:55:32 So what that means is we are looking at people now are aging with HIV.
01:55:32 --> 01:55:37 So about over 50% of the people living with HIV now are over 50 years old.
01:55:37 --> 01:55:44 So now it is not obviously a death sentence because of the technologies that
01:55:44 --> 01:55:48 have come around, the medications and the fights of the people in the beginning.
01:55:49 --> 01:55:53 To get us to this point, it is not a death sentence. But now we have to look
01:55:53 --> 01:55:57 at people actually aging with the disease, with HIV.
01:55:57 --> 01:56:03 And so that means we are looking at, they need affordable housing. They need healthcare.
01:56:03 --> 01:56:06 They need access to Medicaid.
01:56:06 --> 01:56:11 They need funded treatment programs, such as Ryan White.
01:56:11 --> 01:56:17 So there's a lot of things that people aging with HIV need. And also,
01:56:17 --> 01:56:20 as we look at public health, vaccinations.
01:56:20 --> 01:56:27 So we are literally coming together with other movements to really make to amplify
01:56:27 --> 01:56:31 our message, but also amplifying the messages of these other movements,
01:56:31 --> 01:56:35 because we're kind of all in sync. We all want Medicaid to stay intact.
01:56:35 --> 01:56:39 So that's not an HIV or a vaccine thing.
01:56:40 --> 01:56:45 That is all of us. So in a time like this, when things are what they are,
01:56:45 --> 01:56:50 we have to be kind of singing in one voice to make our voices heard because
01:56:50 --> 01:56:52 the attacks are impacting all of us.
01:56:53 --> 01:56:54 Yeah. And, you know, I.
01:56:55 --> 01:57:03 I'm a little bit older than you, and I remember the big deal when Magic Johnson contracted HIV.
01:57:04 --> 01:57:12 And the fact that he was able to still play basketball and he's lived a full
01:57:12 --> 01:57:18 life, that was, just to paint a picture, that was such an anomaly, right?
01:57:18 --> 01:57:29 Because it was like we were growing up and watching people instantly die from this disease.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:37 And then, but now, like you said, 45 years into it, now you actually have basically
01:57:37 --> 01:57:42 senior citizens that have lived with the virus for their lives.
01:57:43 --> 01:57:47 So I know that's been, how much of a change has that been?
01:57:47 --> 01:57:55 I mean, is it, you know, but just kind of explain how it's transitioned to something
01:57:55 --> 01:57:59 that can be treated as opposed to an instant death sentence.
01:58:00 --> 01:58:08 Well, now we have, you know, many medications that keep HIV manageable and so
01:58:08 --> 01:58:14 that your viral load does not skyrocket and go into AIDS. So that's where we are now.
01:58:14 --> 01:58:20 And that's due to a lot of the pioneering efforts of the people of ACT UP and
01:58:20 --> 01:58:26 the early movements of just forcing folks to pay attention to a community,
01:58:26 --> 01:58:30 specific community, that was being disproportionately impacted.
01:58:31 --> 01:58:37 And so right now, we have gotten to the place where we weren't in the 90s,
01:58:38 --> 01:58:40 80s and the 90s, and some of the 2000s.
01:58:41 --> 01:58:42 We're in a place where people can age.
01:58:43 --> 01:58:46 But the reason for that is because of advocacy.
01:58:46 --> 01:58:51 And the reason that we will be able to stay and get to a place where hopefully
01:58:51 --> 01:58:53 we can end the epidemic is through advocacy.
01:58:54 --> 01:58:59 So where we are now is people are like, oh, well, people are aging with HIV.
01:58:59 --> 01:59:01 Be. So it's obviously not that big of a deal.
01:59:01 --> 01:59:04 Obviously, I've had someone say, like, is that still a thing?
01:59:04 --> 01:59:09 And yes, yes, it is. And what you're seeing with someone like Magic,
01:59:09 --> 01:59:14 who, by the way, is one of NMAC's biggest advocates and one of definitely a
01:59:14 --> 01:59:16 wonderful partner of ours.
01:59:16 --> 01:59:21 So we very appreciate his insights and his impact on the organization.
01:59:21 --> 01:59:24 But it wasn't always the case that
01:59:24 --> 01:59:27 somebody was mad that people had magic's
01:59:27 --> 01:59:30 resources to be able to get to that point
01:59:30 --> 01:59:33 so the way that we watched magic i just
01:59:33 --> 01:59:38 remember watching him make that announcement on that little tv in my in my kitchen
01:59:38 --> 01:59:45 as a little girl and that being like oh my goodness he's gonna die and clearly
01:59:45 --> 01:59:50 he's still here and thriving and letting his voice be heard but we have to remember
01:59:50 --> 01:59:52 all the people who were diagnosed back then,
01:59:53 --> 01:59:59 that that was kind of it for them. And so we are really looking at,
01:59:59 --> 02:00:07 you know, now it's not a situation where you have to have Magic Johnson's wealth to stay alive.
02:00:07 --> 02:00:12 But what we're doing now, as we're attacking public health, is people still
02:00:12 --> 02:00:14 need resources to get these medications.
02:00:15 --> 02:00:19 And so when you're attacking Medicaid, when you're attacking,
02:00:19 --> 02:00:21 you know, the ACA subsidies,
02:00:22 --> 02:00:25 these are the things that are keeping people from getting their
02:00:25 --> 02:00:28 medications and we have to remember that there are higher
02:00:28 --> 02:00:31 rates of HIV in various different places in
02:00:31 --> 02:00:38 the country so it doesn't all look like you know people just out here thriving
02:00:38 --> 02:00:42 we still need to make sure that people are getting access to their medications
02:00:42 --> 02:00:50 so that we can have a general population of people living with HIV that are aging and thriving,
02:00:50 --> 02:00:52 and it's not just certain groups.
02:00:53 --> 02:00:59 Yeah. So you work in the strategic partnerships and policy department at NMAC.
02:00:59 --> 02:01:04 Is your primary function strategic priority number three, which is building
02:01:04 --> 02:01:08 grassroots response by identifying and building community leaders?
02:01:09 --> 02:01:15 Is that my primary? I don't know if that's my primary, but I think that all
02:01:15 --> 02:01:19 of the priorities are things that, you know, my department embodies.
02:01:20 --> 02:01:25 And that is one of them. So at this point, you know, we have started our,
02:01:25 --> 02:01:30 we have now our first state policy, state policy position.
02:01:30 --> 02:01:36 So NMAC is a national organization, but now we're going into states and trying
02:01:36 --> 02:01:41 to offer assistance, working with people on the ground, because where we are
02:01:41 --> 02:01:43 nationally and federally is a bit challenging.
02:01:43 --> 02:01:47 So when we're building leaders, I say that to say now that we're going into
02:01:47 --> 02:01:50 states, we're trying to, you know,
02:01:51 --> 02:01:55 start working with volunteers on the ground level, especially in states that
02:01:55 --> 02:02:00 have a bit more problematic legislation around HIV policy.
02:02:00 --> 02:02:05 So what we're doing is we are trying to like build young leaders through like
02:02:05 --> 02:02:10 volunteer programs and whatnot. So that's something that my department is starting.
02:02:10 --> 02:02:14 But really all of the strategic priorities we embody in some capacity.
02:02:15 --> 02:02:19 And that's really, you know, when we created them, we wanted to make sure that
02:02:19 --> 02:02:24 every department in some way embodied each of these, each of the priorities.
02:02:24 --> 02:02:26 But that's really one way we're doing that.
02:02:27 --> 02:02:29 And then also just building advocates on Capitol Hill.
02:02:30 --> 02:02:37 I mean, some people, they mean, well, they say, you know, we're all for HIV policy.
02:02:37 --> 02:02:40 We just want to know more. And so that's how you build champions.
02:02:40 --> 02:02:42 So that's also part of our strategic priorities.
02:02:43 --> 02:02:48 Yeah. And I will get to that, let you expand on that a little more later.
02:02:48 --> 02:02:53 But you've been, y'all have been staunch advocates for maintaining federal HIV
02:02:53 --> 02:02:58 programs like the Ryan White Care Act you had mentioned, the Ending HIV Epidemic
02:02:58 --> 02:03:01 Initiative and PEPFAR. What are...
02:03:02 --> 02:03:06 Pieces of legislation that your organization is focusing on right now?
02:03:06 --> 02:03:10 We are focused on largely the same.
02:03:10 --> 02:03:17 Like our strategic priorities are, well, our policy priorities are CDC prevention fund.
02:03:17 --> 02:03:22 We want to make sure that's funded at a high level because that is where most
02:03:22 --> 02:03:27 of our community-based organization funding comes from as it relates to HIV
02:03:27 --> 02:03:31 education, prevention, education, goes together.
02:03:31 --> 02:03:35 We, Ryan White, we want to make sure that is funded at a higher level.
02:03:36 --> 02:03:39 And now PEPFAR, as you just mentioned.
02:03:39 --> 02:03:47 And we are trying to make sure that ending the HIV epidemic initiative is funded at a higher program.
02:03:47 --> 02:03:50 And that one is actually interesting because that is a Trump initiative.
02:03:51 --> 02:03:56 He started that as being the president that wanted to end the HIV epidemic.
02:03:57 --> 02:04:01 Problem is when you cut funding from CDC, which is where the program,
02:04:01 --> 02:04:05 the initiative is housed, you're kind of working against yourself.
02:04:05 --> 02:04:10 So as we are, that's when I, and now to bring in the other movements,
02:04:10 --> 02:04:17 you know, a lot of our key programs are in CDC or the programs that we have relied on.
02:04:17 --> 02:04:21 So when we're working with, you know, vaccine advocates and other advocates
02:04:21 --> 02:04:25 that, you know, and other public health advocates, this is why we're singing in one voice.
02:04:25 --> 02:04:33 So now that we've made our expansion, Medicaid is part of our policy priorities as well as SNAP.
02:04:33 --> 02:04:40 So just briefly, you know, when you cut Medicaid benefits and Medicaid benefits
02:04:40 --> 02:04:44 have been a backbone for people living with HIV in terms of getting treatment.
02:04:45 --> 02:04:50 So when you cut Medicaid benefits, Ryan White benefit, you know,
02:04:50 --> 02:04:51 people are going to go to Ryan White.
02:04:51 --> 02:04:53 Well, Ryan White is already underfunded.
02:04:54 --> 02:04:59 So Ryan White is not going to be able to absorb all of the people that are going
02:04:59 --> 02:05:03 to need to need their services. So then people are just going to be out of luck.
02:05:04 --> 02:05:07 So those are largely our policy priorities.
02:05:07 --> 02:05:13 And then moving with SNAP, you can't really take care of yourself if you're not eating.
02:05:13 --> 02:05:19 So if folks are relying on SNAP benefits, they're not getting their SNAP benefit,
02:05:19 --> 02:05:21 they're not eating, that means they're not taking their medications.
02:05:22 --> 02:05:28 And you see how that can just spiral into creating a larger epidemic in certain
02:05:28 --> 02:05:33 places that we are trying to eradicate. Yeah, yeah.
02:05:34 --> 02:05:39 So do you deal directly with HHS? And if you do, how is that going?
02:05:40 --> 02:05:45 Well, I think in a different time, we would interact with HHS.
02:05:45 --> 02:05:53 We have some meetings with the CDC. We are starting to have some more so than prior.
02:05:54 --> 02:05:59 There are conversations that are happening, but some of our relationship,
02:05:59 --> 02:06:04 you know, it has to be a bit more it's
02:06:04 --> 02:06:08 not as open as it has been in the past like it has and we would love to have
02:06:08 --> 02:06:13 a collaborative relationship with HHS we would really enjoy that but right now
02:06:13 --> 02:06:18 you know it's hard to have a it's hard to have a collaborative relationship
02:06:18 --> 02:06:23 with HHS with a lot of organizations and not just ours I mean lots of people are trying to.
02:06:24 --> 02:06:29 Find an inroad. And it's been a bit more difficult in the last few years,
02:06:29 --> 02:06:31 in the last couple of years, as you can imagine.
02:06:31 --> 02:06:40 Yeah. So talk to me about the Hills Champion Reception and NMAC Advocacy 101.
02:06:41 --> 02:06:50 So our Hill Champions Reception has largely been a reception that is commemorating World AIDS Day.
02:06:50 --> 02:06:56 And so that is the day that we would go to Capitol Hill and we would celebrate
02:06:56 --> 02:07:02 Hill champions, our champions within the HIV caucus and overarchingly.
02:07:02 --> 02:07:07 So these are the people that really are supportive of HIV policy,
02:07:07 --> 02:07:13 are vocal about their support for HIV policy, and are the ones that are coming
02:07:13 --> 02:07:16 up with new pieces of legislation for, like,
02:07:16 --> 02:07:22 PrEP affordability and other priorities that the HIV community has.
02:07:23 --> 02:07:26 So that's really a reception. It's just a night to honor them.
02:07:27 --> 02:07:33 And we are definitely going to, let's see, take it up a notch this year because
02:07:33 --> 02:07:36 it is the 45th anniversary of this movement.
02:07:36 --> 02:07:42 And so this is now we are going to be expanding on our celebration.
02:07:42 --> 02:07:46 And so there'll be more on that to come. But we are, that is definitely one
02:07:46 --> 02:07:49 of our biggest events of the year.
02:07:49 --> 02:07:52 And it's something that we've been very excited to do.
02:07:52 --> 02:07:55 And we are very excited to expand on this year.
02:07:55 --> 02:08:01 And in terms of Advocacy 101, really what that is, is.
02:08:02 --> 02:08:05 Us, you know, just putting our policies out there.
02:08:05 --> 02:08:11 It's really just making sure that people know what NMAC's priority policies
02:08:11 --> 02:08:13 are and giving them a way to advocate on them.
02:08:14 --> 02:08:20 So as an advocate, it's kind of our responsibility to lead and train other advocates.
02:08:20 --> 02:08:25 So when we have some of the people from our programs, from our treatment programs,
02:08:25 --> 02:08:27 so we have a program, Gay Men of Color.
02:08:28 --> 02:08:34 This is a program that kind of starts and mentors and really kind of brings in community.
02:08:34 --> 02:08:39 So we, when we have like a Capitol Hill Day, we'll be responsible for training
02:08:39 --> 02:08:42 them and saying, these are the talking points. These are things you need to ask.
02:08:42 --> 02:08:45 Because when you do this all the time, you kind of take for granted,
02:08:45 --> 02:08:49 you know, you're going into a congressional office and talking about these things.
02:08:50 --> 02:08:54 And for people who don't do that often, that can be very intimidating.
02:08:55 --> 02:09:00 So we're really big on trying to train and make sure that the people in our
02:09:00 --> 02:09:06 cohorts know how to go to the Hill and talk about the issues that we hold dear.
02:09:06 --> 02:09:11 So really advocacy one-on-one is our policy priorities, but kind of in a bite-sized
02:09:11 --> 02:09:16 manner so that everyone can understand and everybody can talk about them comfortably.
02:09:16 --> 02:09:23 Yeah, I liked I loved advocacy day when we were doing it because it was kind
02:09:23 --> 02:09:26 of like it gave me a chance to act like a college professor for a day.
02:09:27 --> 02:09:32 Yeah. And the people are so eager and it's like they want to do something good.
02:09:32 --> 02:09:34 So they you have their attention.
02:09:34 --> 02:09:39 And, you know, it's just amazing to watch average citizens who don't normally
02:09:39 --> 02:09:44 do that kind of work to get comfortable enough to talk to their elected officials.
02:09:44 --> 02:09:47 I think that's a cool thing.
02:09:47 --> 02:09:50 So that's the main reason why I wanted to expound on that.
02:09:50 --> 02:09:54 Y'all are losing two of your champions in Congress at the end of this term,
02:09:54 --> 02:09:56 Nancy Pelosi and Jasmine Crockett.
02:09:57 --> 02:10:02 And you might have answered it already, but when you had mentioned something
02:10:02 --> 02:10:06 about the HIV caucus, but do you see any new champions emerging?
02:10:08 --> 02:10:15 Oh, yes, we are definitely in the process of watching several new champions emerge.
02:10:15 --> 02:10:22 So one of them is from your home state and the district is representing part
02:10:22 --> 02:10:23 of Chicago with Delia Ramirez.
02:10:24 --> 02:10:27 She's in her second term, I believe.
02:10:27 --> 02:10:33 And she is someone who has come out really powerfully for HIV policies.
02:10:33 --> 02:10:38 And she came to our summit, our biomedical summit in April.
02:10:38 --> 02:10:43 And she was wonderful in our plenary, just telling us, you know,
02:10:43 --> 02:10:44 just the need to keep fighting.
02:10:45 --> 02:10:49 You know, keep fighting for communities that are not being, well,
02:10:49 --> 02:10:51 that are not being noticed.
02:10:51 --> 02:10:54 They're being noticed and they're actually being persecuted.
02:10:55 --> 02:11:00 So that's why we're looking for people such as her to really go on a limb and
02:11:00 --> 02:11:03 step out because we do need to build new champions.
02:11:03 --> 02:11:05 So she is definitely one. And
02:11:05 --> 02:11:09 we're in the process now of just talking to several Democratic members.
02:11:09 --> 02:11:12 We have Representative Takano representing California.
02:11:12 --> 02:11:17 He is not a new champion, but he is definitely one that has become more vocal
02:11:17 --> 02:11:21 over time as he's seen some of the injustices that are happening.
02:11:22 --> 02:11:29 So we are in the process of building new champions, especially ones that are new to Congress. And.
02:11:30 --> 02:11:36 If the midterms go the way many of us hope, we will have an opportunity to build
02:11:36 --> 02:11:38 some new champions that will be fresh in the door.
02:11:39 --> 02:11:43 And it's always fun to start a new Congress because you have new members that
02:11:43 --> 02:11:46 are just looking for their policy priority.
02:11:46 --> 02:11:50 And, you know, maybe they come in with a specific level of expertise,
02:11:50 --> 02:11:55 but if you expose them to this new area, they'll be like, oh, I'm interested in this.
02:11:55 --> 02:11:59 Let's talk more. And that's how sometimes you have people who have never talked
02:11:59 --> 02:12:03 about any of these issues coming in to and they're like, oh,
02:12:03 --> 02:12:07 I can be an HIV advocate or I can be a public health advocate now that I am
02:12:07 --> 02:12:09 more educated on these topics.
02:12:09 --> 02:12:13 So we're in the process. We know how important it is to build champions.
02:12:13 --> 02:12:17 And that's really what we're we're focused on now as we move into the next Congress.
02:12:18 --> 02:12:23 Yeah. All right. So y'all are a nonprofit, correct?
02:12:24 --> 02:12:29 Yes. Yeah. So y'all need money. That's one way to put it. Sure.
02:12:31 --> 02:12:38 Well, this is your cue to make the pitch as far as how people can donate,
02:12:39 --> 02:12:41 how people can get involved with NMAC and all that.
02:12:42 --> 02:12:47 Well, thank you so much, Erik, for that opening. If you are listening to this,
02:12:47 --> 02:12:51 you know, we're a nonprofit organization that's really fighting back and trying
02:12:51 --> 02:12:56 to make sure that the people that need us are getting served.
02:12:56 --> 02:13:00 So we're willing, we're working both sides of the aisle.
02:13:00 --> 02:13:03 We're willing to work with the administration and we're willing to work with
02:13:03 --> 02:13:05 anyone who wants to forward.
02:13:05 --> 02:13:12 The goal of ending the epidemic. So where we are right now is we are just always
02:13:12 --> 02:13:18 in need of funding to carry out especially our policy priorities as we expand
02:13:18 --> 02:13:20 our territory. That takes more money.
02:13:20 --> 02:13:24 So as we are moving into different spaces, into different circles,
02:13:24 --> 02:13:29 as we are expanding our state work, that is going to require probably more than
02:13:29 --> 02:13:32 one person over the course of time to cover all 50 states.
02:13:33 --> 02:13:36 So we're really looking to expand the work that we're doing.
02:13:36 --> 02:13:39 And we're really excited to do that, but that is going to take fun.
02:13:40 --> 02:13:46 So if you would like to talk more about NMAC, I am happy to chat.
02:13:46 --> 02:13:51 I can put my, I'm not really sure how to put my email out there, but I can do that.
02:13:51 --> 02:13:56 And, you know, happy to talk, happy to talk more about our priorities and happy
02:13:56 --> 02:14:00 to talk more about the investment being well worth it during this time when
02:14:00 --> 02:14:02 we're all kind of in the fight for our lives.
02:14:03 --> 02:14:08 Well, all of y'all's emails are on the website. So just tell people what the website is.
02:14:08 --> 02:14:12 It's www.nmac.org. Yeah. Yeah.
02:14:13 --> 02:14:18 Cause it's, it's really cool. Y'all they, you just like find the picture and
02:14:18 --> 02:14:20 bam, and the email's right there.
02:14:20 --> 02:14:25 So it's a very, very good website. It's very, thank you so much.
02:14:25 --> 02:14:28 And actually, thank you so much for saying that because we are really in the
02:14:28 --> 02:14:30 process of reworking and revamping it.
02:14:31 --> 02:14:35 So that's what we needed to hear. So I'll definitely let our team know. Yeah.
02:14:36 --> 02:14:41 All right. So to close this out, finish this sentence. I have hope because...
02:14:42 --> 02:14:47 I have hope because the people that came before me did not stop and they did
02:14:47 --> 02:14:53 not lose hope and they were in positions similar or worse than where we are today.
02:14:53 --> 02:14:59 And so when I look back at, you know, like my great grandmother who was a sharecropper
02:14:59 --> 02:15:02 and then, you know, looking at my grandmother who was domestic,
02:15:03 --> 02:15:09 like they continued on and they knew that there was a better day ahead,
02:15:09 --> 02:15:13 even if there was no possible way they could see it. And that's why I'm sitting here.
02:15:13 --> 02:15:20 So I continue to hope just based on the love and energy that was given before me.
02:15:20 --> 02:15:24 Well, Cecelia, Cece, Thomas, thank you.
02:15:24 --> 02:15:29 Not only for just coming on the podcast, but thank you for the work that you're doing.
02:15:29 --> 02:15:33 And on behalf of NMAC, the work that they're doing.
02:15:34 --> 02:15:39 Like you said, America has a very short attention span.
02:15:39 --> 02:15:44 Very. And so, you know, the fact that you are running into people in your work
02:15:44 --> 02:15:46 saying that's still a thing.
02:15:46 --> 02:15:50 Yes, ladies and gentlemen, it's still a thing. So I'm glad that your organization
02:15:50 --> 02:15:58 and you specifically are keeping us aware and fighting the good fight in Washington.
02:15:58 --> 02:16:05 And as you say, you're hoping to expand into all 50 states. I think it's vital work.
02:16:05 --> 02:16:11 And anything dealing with public health is important because that's all we got, right?
02:16:11 --> 02:16:15 Yes. And so I just thank you for doing that.
02:16:15 --> 02:16:19 And then the one thing I want to tell you is that I have a rule here on this
02:16:19 --> 02:16:24 podcast that once you've been a guest, you have an open meditation to come back.
02:16:24 --> 02:16:27 So you don't even have to wait for me to reach out to you. It's like,
02:16:28 --> 02:16:31 look, Eric, I need a platform. We need to talk about this.
02:16:31 --> 02:16:36 We'll make it happen. So, again, Ms. Thomas, thank you so much for coming on.
02:16:36 --> 02:16:38 Thank you, Erik. Enjoying the conversation.
02:16:39 --> 02:16:43 Thank you so much. This has meant so much to me, and I really just enjoyed the conversation.
02:16:43 --> 02:16:47 And thank you for giving NMAC and myself a platform in the future.
02:16:47 --> 02:16:48 I really appreciate you.
02:16:48 --> 02:16:50 All right, guys. So we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
02:17:02 --> 02:17:10 All right, we are back. And so I just want to thank Professor Gloria J.
02:17:10 --> 02:17:12 Browne-Marshall for coming on.
02:17:12 --> 02:17:22 I'm going to do my part to at least get some proclamations done for Martyrs Day here in the area.
02:17:22 --> 02:17:28 And if we can't even organize an event, but we've got time to do that.
02:17:28 --> 02:17:32 That is, you know, you got like a month before that kicks in.
02:17:32 --> 02:17:34 That's going to be July the 5th.
02:17:35 --> 02:17:40 So wherever you're listening, if you want to participate in that,
02:17:40 --> 02:17:43 go to, I think it's martyrsday.us.
02:17:44 --> 02:17:50 If I got that wrong, you can, you know, replay the interview and hear Professor
02:17:50 --> 02:17:53 Browne-Marshall give that out.
02:17:53 --> 02:17:59 But, or just, you know, type in Martyrs Day on your search engine and the website will come up.
02:18:00 --> 02:18:05 And, you know, participate in that because I think it's a beautiful thing to
02:18:05 --> 02:18:11 acknowledge the people who made a sacrifice.
02:18:12 --> 02:18:16 You know, we just had Memorial Day where we talk about our military people who
02:18:16 --> 02:18:18 made the ultimate sacrifice.
02:18:18 --> 02:18:22 But there have been average citizens that have made the sacrifice as well.
02:18:22 --> 02:18:32 And so I just think it's very insightful that Professor Browne-Marshall wanted to create a day for that.
02:18:32 --> 02:18:37 And if you listen to the interview, you know the reason and why they picked July the 5th.
02:18:38 --> 02:18:41 And we hope that we can make that a regular thing.
02:18:42 --> 02:18:43 So I'm going to do my part.
02:18:44 --> 02:18:46 And if y'all are listening, please.
02:18:47 --> 02:18:52 And feel motivated to do that, then, you know, in your respective cities and
02:18:52 --> 02:18:57 towns, you know, overlap is not a problem at this point because they're just
02:18:57 --> 02:19:02 getting started. And there's only a few cities. I think when I last time I checked, it was like six.
02:19:04 --> 02:19:10 So, you know, if you're in the New York area, go to Riverside Church for that event.
02:19:10 --> 02:19:13 But they also are going to stream it live.
02:19:14 --> 02:19:17 So, you know, you can go to the website and find out the times and all that stuff.
02:19:18 --> 02:19:25 I want to thank Mayor Betsy Hodges for coming on and talking about her experience
02:19:25 --> 02:19:28 being mayor of Minneapolis.
02:19:29 --> 02:19:33 She only served one term, but as you can tell by the interview,
02:19:34 --> 02:19:35 there were some things that went on there.
02:19:35 --> 02:19:44 And how she viewed her public service as part of her overall mission to end
02:19:44 --> 02:19:46 racism in the United States.
02:19:46 --> 02:19:48 I think that's a noble endeavor.
02:19:49 --> 02:19:55 And I like the way that she goes about it, right?
02:19:56 --> 02:20:02 And, you know, and she, and you can tell she has a very compelling story personally.
02:20:02 --> 02:20:13 And so the fact that she is vulnerable in her activism is very, very powerful.
02:20:14 --> 02:20:18 Now, you know, to be fair, there are some people that have been on this podcast.
02:20:19 --> 02:20:25 That ain't exactly quite eye to eye with her or, you know, other elected officials.
02:20:25 --> 02:20:28 And that's fine because that's what this process is all about.
02:20:28 --> 02:20:30 All of us need to be pushed, right?
02:20:31 --> 02:20:38 We can be allies and friends, but we all need to be pushed to do the right thing.
02:20:38 --> 02:20:46 Whenever justice needs to be rendered fairly and equitably, then,
02:20:46 --> 02:20:50 you know, sometimes we have to guide our friends to do the right thing.
02:20:51 --> 02:20:56 And so, you know, based on the conversation I had with her, I don't think she
02:20:56 --> 02:21:00 really had much of a complaint about it.
02:21:01 --> 02:21:07 But I just know being an elected official myself that if your heart's in the
02:21:07 --> 02:21:09 right place, it can get frustrating.
02:21:09 --> 02:21:14 But if you know that the people who are pushing you are in the right place too,
02:21:14 --> 02:21:21 and they're pushing the right thing, you get over that and you do your best to make things right.
02:21:22 --> 02:21:29 And then for Cecelia Thomas, I really, I wanted her to come on because I just
02:21:29 --> 02:21:33 wanted us to be reminded that HIV AIDS is still out there.
02:21:34 --> 02:21:38 You know, some of y'all that may have seen the commercials for like PEPFAR and
02:21:38 --> 02:21:43 all that kind of stuff on TV, along with all the other drugs that are out there on television.
02:21:45 --> 02:21:49 And a lot of times I know we kind of gloss over and don't know what is that drug for,
02:21:51 --> 02:22:00 All we hear is all the side effects because, you know, they legally have to put that out there.
02:22:00 --> 02:22:04 But, you know, the work that she's doing and her organization,
02:22:04 --> 02:22:12 NMAC, they're under relatively new leadership. I don't think the CEO has been there a full year yet.
02:22:12 --> 02:22:16 It's pretty close to a year now, though. But, you know, they basically had
02:22:16 --> 02:22:24 one person for like a long time. and, you know, majority of the existence of the organization.
02:22:25 --> 02:22:29 And so, you know, they're just like anybody else.
02:22:29 --> 02:22:35 They need money and they need support and they need to be uplifted because they're doing real work.
02:22:37 --> 02:22:41 And so I wish her continued success in what she's been doing.
02:22:41 --> 02:22:44 And hopefully she can build that army that she talked about in the interview
02:22:44 --> 02:22:52 in all 50 states to really have people doing the work and keeping the HIV AIDS
02:22:52 --> 02:22:57 issue in the forefront until the epidemic,
02:22:57 --> 02:23:00 as they put it, is eradicated.
02:23:00 --> 02:23:07 You know, we've come a long way with that and, you know, where people can live with it.
02:23:08 --> 02:23:13 But, you know, we still need to educate our young folks, you know,
02:23:13 --> 02:23:17 to try to keep them out of situations where they can contract it.
02:23:17 --> 02:23:20 And if they do contract it, then
02:23:20 --> 02:23:26 we want to be able to support them and make sure they can afford and obtain
02:23:26 --> 02:23:32 the medication that they need and continue to have awareness and identify support
02:23:32 --> 02:23:38 groups and continue to support elected officials that understand the magnitude of the situation.
02:23:39 --> 02:23:43 So all three of those ladies, thank you all again for coming on.
02:23:43 --> 02:23:46 Very powerful sisters, all of them.
02:23:46 --> 02:23:52 And, you know, much, much love to all of them and the work that they're doing.
02:23:52 --> 02:23:57 Now, real quick, I just, since now it's time to get off of the love train.
02:23:59 --> 02:24:03 And just talk about people who missed the train altogether. Now,
02:24:03 --> 02:24:09 if you listened to the interview with Mayor Hodges, I mentioned this guy, Andy Barr.
02:24:10 --> 02:24:14 So Andy Barr is currently a congressman in Kentucky. I mean,
02:24:14 --> 02:24:18 he just won a very, very contested primary matchup.
02:24:19 --> 02:24:23 For the United States Senate to replace Mitch McConnell in Kentucky.
02:24:24 --> 02:24:31 He beat a black man, Daniel Blackman, excuse me, who he's run for some other
02:24:31 --> 02:24:35 officers, but he was the attorney general for the state of Kentucky at one point.
02:24:36 --> 02:24:41 So he was a black statewide elected official. And he beat some guy who was like
02:24:41 --> 02:24:46 really rich, who had jumped in the race.
02:24:47 --> 02:24:52 But he had that commercial that said it's not a sin to be white, right?
02:24:53 --> 02:24:58 And then the other person who missed the train was our Secretary of Defense.
02:24:58 --> 02:25:05 He wants to hearken back to a day, you know, where it was actually called the Secretary of War.
02:25:06 --> 02:25:12 But, you know, the people that were secretaries of war were actually in wars.
02:25:12 --> 02:25:17 Like, you know, God, I forget the guy's name. I don't want to mispronounce it.
02:25:18 --> 02:25:21 I want to say Stanton, who was the Secretary of War during the Civil War,
02:25:21 --> 02:25:26 and all the other ones, you know, like the Revolutionary War and the War of
02:25:26 --> 02:25:31 1812, you know, where he'd just come out of Revolutionary War when the first
02:25:31 --> 02:25:32 administration kicked in.
02:25:32 --> 02:25:36 And so, you know, there was a time for that.
02:25:36 --> 02:25:43 But our primary function is defending the nation. When all people take the oath
02:25:43 --> 02:25:48 to serve in the military, they don't say we're going to war.
02:25:48 --> 02:25:54 We swear and affirm that we're going to defend the Constitution of the United States.
02:25:54 --> 02:26:01 So hence the name change, right? Even though the current administration is bombing
02:26:01 --> 02:26:04 any country that's brown or black,
02:26:05 --> 02:26:12 It's still, we're still not supposed to be initiating wars, and we're not currently,
02:26:12 --> 02:26:16 well, kind of technically we are in a war now, I guess.
02:26:17 --> 02:26:19 But we weren't in a war when they changed the name.
02:26:21 --> 02:26:24 We were not in a war when this administration came in.
02:26:25 --> 02:26:31 So I guess that should have been a sign. But anyway, Secretary Hegzev got in
02:26:31 --> 02:26:36 front of one of the military academies. I want to say it was the Army,
02:26:36 --> 02:26:39 but I can't, don't quote me on that.
02:26:39 --> 02:26:45 But I know he spoke to, because, you know, the Secretary of Defense rotates,
02:26:46 --> 02:26:50 like the President rotates, like they'll speak to one academy,
02:26:50 --> 02:26:54 and then the Secretary of Defense will speak to another academy,
02:26:55 --> 02:26:59 and then the other academy gets, you know, to choose whoever,
02:26:59 --> 02:27:01 former graduate, more than likely,
02:27:01 --> 02:27:06 or another military person, to speak at those commencements.
02:27:06 --> 02:27:13 And we only have three. We've got West Point, Annapolis, and Colorado Springs,
02:27:13 --> 02:27:17 or more appropriately, the U.S.
02:27:17 --> 02:27:21 Army, U.S. Navy, and U.S. Air Force, respectively.
02:27:22 --> 02:27:29 And so Hexup was speaking at one of those commencements, and he reiterated this
02:27:29 --> 02:27:35 mantra that he keeps saying that diversity is not our strength, right?
02:27:36 --> 02:27:41 So, Mr. Secretary, obviously you've never read anything that Booker T.
02:27:41 --> 02:27:46 Washington talked about or wrote, or any of his speeches that he gave,
02:27:47 --> 02:27:56 excuse me, because one of his mantras was that we can be as diverse as fingers on a hand,
02:27:56 --> 02:28:01 but we can be united like a fist, right?
02:28:02 --> 02:28:07 And, you know, his whole thing was, you know...
02:28:08 --> 02:28:13 Black people can do their own thing and they have their own culture and all that stuff.
02:28:13 --> 02:28:18 But when it comes to being Americans, we're going to band together and do what
02:28:18 --> 02:28:23 needs to be done, whether it's a war or whether it's lifting the economy or
02:28:23 --> 02:28:24 whatever the case may be.
02:28:24 --> 02:28:31 We will all do our part, but we can live our lives, right, and be our unique, true selves.
02:28:32 --> 02:28:36 And because Hegseth doesn't understand that concept.
02:28:36 --> 02:28:42 He thinks that everybody should be straight white Christian men in the military,
02:28:42 --> 02:28:45 especially in leadership positions.
02:28:46 --> 02:28:52 And, you know, my brief foray into the Marine Corps was based on the concept
02:28:52 --> 02:28:54 that it might be too white.
02:28:55 --> 02:29:02 Right. And so they created programs to try to recruit black men and black women
02:29:02 --> 02:29:09 to, you know, become officers and ascend to leadership in the different branches,
02:29:09 --> 02:29:11 especially in my case, the Marine Corps.
02:29:11 --> 02:29:16 And so, you know, he, he didn't get that memo.
02:29:17 --> 02:29:23 I guess that was before his time. So he, he doesn't understand that if you want
02:29:23 --> 02:29:29 to field an army of Americans, you have to be diverse. And.
02:29:30 --> 02:29:38 Our strength comes in our acceptance of people who are different than us,
02:29:38 --> 02:29:44 but we're all united for a common cause, like defending the nation.
02:29:44 --> 02:29:50 You know, I obviously never saw any World War II films, documentaries,
02:29:50 --> 02:29:57 or even Hollywood productions, you know, that highlighted the diversity, right?
02:29:57 --> 02:30:05 The Native Americans who could break code, the Tuskegee Airmen or the Red Ball
02:30:05 --> 02:30:09 Express or anything like that. He has no clue about that.
02:30:09 --> 02:30:13 But, you know, and then whatever clue he did have, he was trying to erase it.
02:30:14 --> 02:30:20 You know, and some of our most distinguished veterans in history haven't all
02:30:20 --> 02:30:22 been straight white Christian men.
02:30:23 --> 02:30:28 And, you know, hopefully, you know, if he, if he's not going to get it,
02:30:28 --> 02:30:33 then we know that by 2029, he won't be in that position anymore.
02:30:33 --> 02:30:38 So I guess we just got to hold on if he doesn't have his Damascus Road experience
02:30:38 --> 02:30:43 and come to some enlightenment and realize Because diversity is our strength,
02:30:44 --> 02:30:47 and I really wish you would stop saying the opposite.
02:30:47 --> 02:30:55 But going back to Mr. Barr, nobody is saying that it's a sin to be white. The sin is racism.
02:30:55 --> 02:31:00 The sin is white supremacy, right? That's the sin.
02:31:00 --> 02:31:03 It's not just being a white person.
02:31:03 --> 02:31:08 Because, you know, all of us people of color,
02:31:09 --> 02:31:15 have white people that we socialize with, that some would consider good friends,
02:31:15 --> 02:31:19 some that would literally give the shirt off their back.
02:31:19 --> 02:31:23 Some would even be willing to take a bullet for us, right?
02:31:24 --> 02:31:27 And Martyrs Day kind of highlights that, right?
02:31:28 --> 02:31:33 That there have been some white people that have taken stands on behalf of the
02:31:33 --> 02:31:36 struggles of people of color and gave their life for that.
02:31:37 --> 02:31:45 So, you know, that feeding into that misconception, feeding into that fear to
02:31:45 --> 02:31:50 then turn around and serve a public that's not 100% white.
02:31:51 --> 02:31:57 Is really, really terrible politics. You know, people in Kentucky that were
02:31:57 --> 02:32:06 writing stories about the commercial that he did said it was a racist commercial, right?
02:32:07 --> 02:32:13 And, you know, their whole thing is, well, you know, they're just trying to,
02:32:13 --> 02:32:15 you know, catch favor with Trump.
02:32:16 --> 02:32:20 So when people turn around and say, well, Trump's not racist,
02:32:20 --> 02:32:25 It's like, well, why is it that people who want to get favor and get the endorsement
02:32:25 --> 02:32:28 of Donald Trump throw out these racist tropes?
02:32:28 --> 02:32:32 If he's not a racist, then that should offend him. Right.
02:32:33 --> 02:32:37 But people keep doing it. So therefore, there's a connection.
02:32:38 --> 02:32:45 Right. So I just, you know, I pray that Mr.
02:32:46 --> 02:32:51 Booker wins the hearts and minds of the citizens of the Commonwealth of Kentucky
02:32:51 --> 02:32:57 and actually represents them in Washington,
02:32:57 --> 02:33:03 D.C., as opposed to a guy who has this hang up or uses rhetoric that he has
02:33:03 --> 02:33:06 a hang up and thinking that being white is a sin.
02:33:06 --> 02:33:12 I think if your mindset is like that, I don't think you're ready to continue
02:33:12 --> 02:33:17 in public service because he's already been elected to Congress.
02:33:17 --> 02:33:19 I think we've got enough of that.
02:33:19 --> 02:33:24 We need to wean ourselves in America away from that mindset.
02:33:25 --> 02:33:29 And again, start talking about real American leadership, which understands that
02:33:29 --> 02:33:37 our diversity is our strength. and we can respect people from wherever they come from.
02:33:38 --> 02:33:44 And believe that they have contributions to give and to make sure that since
02:33:44 --> 02:33:50 they fall under the Constitution of the United States, the preamble again sends the guideline.
02:33:50 --> 02:33:53 You know, we're supposed to promote the general welfare.
02:33:54 --> 02:34:00 And so, you know, if people really thought that it was a sin to be white,
02:34:00 --> 02:34:02 then white people would be struggling,
02:34:02 --> 02:34:11 not just the select few, like in the Appalachian region in Kentucky or other spots, but everywhere.
02:34:12 --> 02:34:18 So, you know, that's just a misnomer, let alone a thing.
02:34:18 --> 02:34:26 And it's like to say that acknowledging our history and learning about some
02:34:26 --> 02:34:30 of the things that happened like Jim Crow and slavery, that,
02:34:31 --> 02:34:33 you know, it's a guilt trip.
02:34:33 --> 02:34:38 Well, the only way that it's a guilt trip is if you have any empathy at all,
02:34:39 --> 02:34:42 right? those people who want to erase history.
02:34:42 --> 02:34:46 I was watching a documentary on Ulysses S.
02:34:46 --> 02:34:54 Grant, and one of the people was saying that President Grant got a bad rap because
02:34:54 --> 02:35:00 of this whole lost cause mythology that took over the nation, right?
02:35:01 --> 02:35:03 Or at least a good portion of it.
02:35:05 --> 02:35:09 And, you know, when you talk about, and especially from a black perspective,
02:35:09 --> 02:35:16 all the things that he did to kind of step in and maintain what Lincoln was
02:35:16 --> 02:35:18 trying to do if he had lived, right?
02:35:19 --> 02:35:24 And fix whatever damage that Andrew Johnson did in the brief time that he was
02:35:24 --> 02:35:28 president between Lincoln's assassination in 1868.
02:35:28 --> 02:35:35 You know, President Grant was the one that pushed the 14th and 15th Amendment,
02:35:35 --> 02:35:37 you know, the Freedmen's Bureau,
02:35:37 --> 02:35:43 all these different things to try to give newly free black people a leg up,
02:35:44 --> 02:35:49 even sending troops to the South to make sure that the white folks didn't harass black people.
02:35:51 --> 02:35:57 And so, you know, let alone being the general that won the Civil War and kept
02:35:57 --> 02:36:00 the nation together, you know, it's been a bad rap.
02:36:00 --> 02:36:07 But it's been because there's always been this element, and it seems like it
02:36:07 --> 02:36:13 generates from the South for whatever reason, even prior to the Civil War.
02:36:13 --> 02:36:18 And it just seems perpetuated, like organizations like the Klan and the United
02:36:18 --> 02:36:21 Daughters of the Confederacy and all that stuff,
02:36:21 --> 02:36:33 you know, to just continue to poison our culture with this white supremacist rhetoric.
02:36:34 --> 02:36:42 And some are more extreme than others, but, you know, it's still bad either way. So, Mr.
02:36:42 --> 02:36:46 Barr, the sin is not being white.
02:36:46 --> 02:36:54 The sin is perpetuating whiteness as supreme.
02:36:56 --> 02:37:03 The sin is playing on ignorance and perpetuating further ignorance.
02:37:03 --> 02:37:09 The sin is being short-sighted in your political vision.
02:37:10 --> 02:37:15 If we can get past that, then we can have a better nation.
02:37:15 --> 02:37:23 But, you know, it should be a criteria, no matter what politicians are saying,
02:37:24 --> 02:37:30 no matter from a liberal or conservative perspective, The common denominator
02:37:30 --> 02:37:38 should be that they should be pushing policies to benefit all Americans,
02:37:38 --> 02:37:40 not just a select few,
02:37:40 --> 02:37:42 whether it's based on race or wealth.
02:37:44 --> 02:37:51 So if we can get past that sin, then we'll truly be a blessed nation or we'll
02:37:51 --> 02:37:53 be fulfilling our blessing.
02:37:54 --> 02:37:58 So I'm not going to hold y'all too much longer. I just wanted to get that off
02:37:58 --> 02:38:04 my chest because like I've been telling people throughout the week and you've
02:38:04 --> 02:38:07 heard from following the podcast, you know that this is my therapy.
02:38:08 --> 02:38:14 Y'all, this is how I get through, you know, talking to you all.
02:38:14 --> 02:38:20 And and y'all responding to, you know, the not only the interviews,
02:38:20 --> 02:38:25 but the commentary that I give, because there has it's got to get better.
02:38:25 --> 02:38:30 And I believe that it will get better, but we got to work at it.
02:38:31 --> 02:38:36 Coretta Scott King basically said, you've got to work at freedom every day. Right.
02:38:36 --> 02:38:40 And that's that's what I'm trying to do with this podcast.
02:38:40 --> 02:38:43 And hopefully that's what y'all are trying to do in your community.
02:38:43 --> 02:38:49 So, you know, there'll be a time when the Andy Bars and the P.
02:38:49 --> 02:38:54 Hegsivs and the Donald Trumps and everybody else will be just like the Tyrannosaurus
02:38:54 --> 02:38:56 Rex and the Dodo Bird. They'll be extinct.
02:38:57 --> 02:39:04 And generations of Americans henceforth will work with the concept that Booker T.
02:39:04 --> 02:39:08 Washington talked about to be as diverse as the fingers on a hand,
02:39:08 --> 02:39:12 but united as a fist. All right, guys, that's all I got.