Host Erik Fleming speaks with author David Dunaway about his book A Four‑Eyed World — the surprising history, social impact, and future of eyeglasses — and explores how vision, technology and stigma shape culture and politics.
Also featured is community organizer Lakeland Barnes, who discusses her work with SheWill and ReNforce to promote financial literacy, reentry support and civic engagement. The episode closes with reflection on justice, recent local cases, and the importance of voting and community action.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello, welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:12 So today, got a couple of guests on. I got one, David Dunaway.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:20 He's written this interesting book about the history and the impact of eyeglasses.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:28 And you'll be surprised when you get into the history not only of eyeglasses, but a lot of objects.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:33 You'll be surprised about the political connections and all that stuff,
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 so we're going to get into that.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:38 The name of his book is called A Four-Eyed World.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:45 So we'll be talking about his book. Then I've got a young sister on named Lakeland Barnes.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:53 Lakeland is a community organizer and nonprofit consultant.
00:02:54 --> 00:02:59 Based out of Augusta, Georgia. And she is doing some incredible things.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:05 So we'll get to share what she's doing in her community to try to lift people up.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:11 Thank you all for listening. We've got a really...
00:03:12 --> 00:03:17 We've got to really be in tune with what's going on.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:22 And I'll talk about a couple of things that's on my mind at the end of the show.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:27 But I just really, really thank y'all for listening and spreading the word.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:33 We're starting to get some feedback. I mean, we were getting feedback,
00:03:33 --> 00:03:37 but it's like it's picked up a little bit as far as people appreciating the
00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 show and appreciating the format and all that.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:44 And, you know, it's one of those things is just like an audible book.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 You've got to set some time to really listen.
00:03:48 --> 00:03:52 But, you know, I want y'all to have a real interview to listen to.
00:03:53 --> 00:04:00 It's one thing to kind of do like the major media outlets and have a high profile
00:04:00 --> 00:04:02 guest on for like five minutes.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 Try to explain what they're doing or what's going on right this moment.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:11 And, you know, it's just kind of like in and out. But, you know,
00:04:11 --> 00:04:18 I want y'all not only to get to know who they are, but what motivated them to do what they do.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:29 And go a little in depth as far as, you know, what the issues they're working on, right?
00:04:30 --> 00:04:33 So, you know, it's not your typical...
00:04:35 --> 00:04:42 Podcast in the sense that I'm really trying to do some fancy or,
00:04:42 --> 00:04:45 you know, I'm starving for money or attention.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:52 Although I do ask for donations and you can go to www.momenterik.com if you want to do that.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 You can subscribe, you can donate, write reviews, the whole nine yards.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:05 But I really do this to really uplift people, not just the folks that come on
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 the show, but to uplift you all and,
00:05:09 --> 00:05:14 give you some hope and just keep reminding you that there are thousands of people
00:05:14 --> 00:05:17 out there, people I'll probably never get to meet or even interview,
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 that are really doing some incredible stuff.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:30 And if you've noticed this year during the show, I've been asking people about why they have hope.
00:05:31 --> 00:05:39 And in this time where it seems like the folks that we would define as the powers
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 that be are just doing whatever they want to do and don't really care about
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 anything, especially us.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:51 So I just want to remind you all through this podcast that there's some people
00:05:51 --> 00:05:57 out there doing the work, and there is hope for all of us because these people are doing the work.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:03 So I just wanted to say that to kind of get things started. And so now it's
00:06:03 --> 00:06:05 time to kick this podcast off.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:23 Thanks, Erik. Detainees at the Delaney Hall Immigration Detention Center in
00:06:23 --> 00:06:28 Newark launched an indefinite hunger and labor strike to protest their confinement.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:33 Former National Security Advisor John Bolton will plead guilty to mishandling
00:06:33 --> 00:06:35 classified documents later this month.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:41 The U.S. Supreme Court allowed Alabama to use a congressional map that eliminates
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 a Black-majority district.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:50 Louisiana Republicans approved a new congressional map that eliminates a majority black district.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:55 Republican Steve Hilton and Democrat Javier Becerra advanced to the general
00:06:55 --> 00:06:59 election after California's open primary for governor.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:05 Los Angeles Mayor Karen Vass secured a November runoff in her re-election bid
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 against Republican Spencer Pratt.
00:07:07 --> 00:07:12 Democrat Rebecca Bennett won her primary to challenge Republican Representative
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 Thomas Keene in New Jersey's 7th Congressional District.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:21 Republican Marionette Miller-Meeks and Democrat Christina Bohannon each won
00:07:21 --> 00:07:25 their respective primaries, setting up a general election matchup in Iowa's
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 1st Congressional District.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:32 Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen announced the Trump administration
00:07:32 --> 00:07:34 might halt international traveler
00:07:34 --> 00:07:39 processing at more than a dozen airports located in sanctuary cities.
00:07:39 --> 00:07:44 The U.S. Department of Justice requested that a federal judge recuse herself
00:07:44 --> 00:07:49 from a Georgia voter registration case due to her link to a judicial misconduct investigation.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:54 A U.S. appeals court ruled that the Trump administration can temporarily bar
00:07:54 --> 00:08:00 transgender individuals from enlisting in the military while blocking the expulsion
00:08:00 --> 00:08:01 of current service members.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:07 Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth blocked the promotions of several female and
00:08:07 --> 00:08:08 black male naval officers.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:14 President Trump appointed Bill Pulte as acting director of national intelligence.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:20 The NAACP asked for a federal court to block the U.S. Postal Service's proposed
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 restrictions on mail-in voting.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:28 And a South Carolina jury acquitted convenience store owner Chike Rick Chow
00:08:28 --> 00:08:34 of murder in the 2023 fatal shooting of 14-year-old Cyrus Carmack Belton.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:38 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:48 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:08:48 --> 00:08:53 Now it is time for my guest, David Dunaway.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:59 David Dunaway is a professor of English at the Universities of New Mexico and
00:08:59 --> 00:09:05 Sao Paulo, Brazil, and the author and editor of 10 books of history and biography.
00:09:05 --> 00:09:10 His award-winning documentaries are heard on NPR and internationally.
00:09:10 --> 00:09:17 He hosted a show on Albuquerque NPR affiliate KUNM for 20 years and has appeared
00:09:17 --> 00:09:22 on PBS, CNBC, and C-SPAN's book TV.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:30 He resides in Los Ranchos, New Mexico, and his new book is A Four-Eyed World,
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 How Glasses Change the Way We See.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 Ladies and gentlemen, It is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 on this podcast, David Dunaway.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 All right. David Dunaway. How you doing, sir? You doing good?
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 Doing great. Looking forward to this conversation. Well,
00:10:00 --> 00:10:05 I'm honored to have you on because you're going to talk about something that
00:10:05 --> 00:10:11 you and I both relate to is that this four-eyed world that we live in.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:12 And that's the name of your book.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:19 So most of the discussion is going to be based off of what you wrote and the
00:10:19 --> 00:10:25 impact that eyeglasses have made in the world.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:30 But before we get into the discussion, I do a couple of icebreaker things.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:34 So the first thing I want you to do is to respond to this quote.
00:10:34 --> 00:10:44 All your problems are opportunities. That is Robert Louis Stevenson who uttered that.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:53 And I often think that's a great quote because too often we overlook,
00:10:53 --> 00:10:57 we're looking back and we're not looking forward.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 And so I agree with that.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:09 Maybe the challenge to that phrase is the word all, because there are some problems
00:11:09 --> 00:11:15 that are not opportunities, particularly around serious health issues.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:18 But other than that, I'm down with that quote.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:22 Well, you know, I understand where you come from with that.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 But in some cases, you know, even the health challenges, right?
00:11:26 --> 00:11:32 So say, for example, you, you, you know, you get diagnosed with diabetes,
00:11:32 --> 00:11:38 then that gives you the opportunity to eat better and try to live a better lifestyle.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:41 There's I'm one of those half full kind of people.
00:11:41 --> 00:11:46 So I try to look at, you know, the best opportunity and stuff.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:51 And I picked that quote because you had a whole bunch of them in the book that
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 I could chose. But I picked that one because that kind of seems like the overarching
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 theme of what you were trying to do.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:04 And we'll get into that in the discussion further. But it seemed like that was
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 kind of the overarching theme of what you're trying to do with the book.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 But let's get this other iceberg out the way first.
00:12:11 --> 00:12:16 This is a segment we call 20 questions. So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:23 17. All righty. What's something about people who see the world differently
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 than you that you've come to appreciate?
00:12:27 --> 00:12:28 Wow, that's a tough one.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 Those of us who are limited in our
00:12:34 --> 00:12:38 vision come to the world in
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 many cases necessarily with a
00:12:41 --> 00:12:48 pair of lenses between us and what surrounds us i call us glassers because i
00:12:48 --> 00:12:56 think it's a lot better than the term four eyes i have learned that well from
00:12:56 --> 00:12:59 the beginning when i started wearing glasses when I was five,
00:12:59 --> 00:13:04 I learned that people really did see the world differently than I did.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:10 That not everybody had to get a foot away from something in order to see it clearly.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:17 And I suppose that's the first big realization I had about the difference between
00:13:17 --> 00:13:20 those of us that are living with visual challenges.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:24 It is that notion that not everybody is.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:33 Yeah, I got you Alright, so Why did you decide to write A Four-Eyed World? Well.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:42 I've always been intrigued by books that try and make a world out of a single device or substance.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:48 There's a great book called Salt, which retells European history and a bit of
00:13:48 --> 00:13:53 African history on the basis of the need and desire for salt,
00:13:54 --> 00:13:58 not just for preserving food,
00:13:58 --> 00:14:04 not just for taste, but for preserving food, and how really civilization was
00:14:04 --> 00:14:13 channeled by our search for salt and spices that took us all across the world,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:16 took Europeans all across the world.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:24 Glasses are omnipresent in my life. They're the first thing I touch in the morning
00:14:24 --> 00:14:26 and the last thing at night.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:32 I can't cross the street without glasses, and I wouldn't try either.
00:14:32 --> 00:14:44 So what we're looking at is a, well, it is kind of a device that many of us
00:14:44 --> 00:14:47 keep closer than any other,
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 except perhaps if we wear our watch to bed.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:59 Glasses, in some sense, are a form of social glue because without it,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 we would be banging into each other.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:07 We would be misunderstanding each other because we couldn't see the details
00:15:07 --> 00:15:10 of each other's faces and reaction.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:17 Glasses are more central to our life than, even if you don't wear them,
00:15:17 --> 00:15:19 than most people understand.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:29 Worldwide, 58% of road accidents have been tied worldwide to defective vision.
00:15:29 --> 00:15:38 And there's a simple way to solve that problem with a miraculous device called eyeglasses. Yeah.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:50 Yeah. So I felt I needed to make my contribution to this as someone who's worn them all his life.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:56 And then I thought I could kind of raise glasses into something that is not
00:15:56 --> 00:16:02 overlooked, but people will be fascinated by its history,
00:16:02 --> 00:16:07 its sociology, that is how people rate people who wear glasses.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:17 Even if they don't say it out loud and the future of glasses which is in its way a little bit scary.
00:16:17 --> 00:16:22 Well, speaking about scary you stated that you lost half of your vision between
00:16:22 --> 00:16:28 the ages of 10 and 13 yet as part of your research for this book you went a
00:16:28 --> 00:16:31 week without your glasses so
00:16:31 --> 00:16:36 I have a two-part question why would you do that and what was that like?
00:16:37 --> 00:16:44 Well, maybe it's a little crazy trying to remember what it was like,
00:16:44 --> 00:16:48 what life was like before we all had glasses.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:54 Most of glasses are 750 years old.
00:16:54 --> 00:17:03 Homo sapiens go back, you know, a good 30 years. So most of humanity's time
00:17:03 --> 00:17:09 was not with a way to see better by a device.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:15 I wanted to know what that was like, and I wanted to know what does it really
00:17:15 --> 00:17:17 mean to wear glasses today?
00:17:17 --> 00:17:24 You wear glasses, I wear glasses, some two-thirds of the American population
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 wears glasses, and they overlook what it means.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:36 So that was one direct way to experience and enter into an understanding of
00:17:36 --> 00:17:42 what it means to wear glasses by essentially not wearing them.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:52 And I was happy with that, except for the challenging experiences I have had.
00:17:52 --> 00:18:02 During that week, I, you know, I pour a glass 150% full with the water spreading
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 across the kitchen floor, which was something of a challenge.
00:18:06 --> 00:18:12 I injured myself. I almost gave it up three or four times.
00:18:12 --> 00:18:18 It was a struggle. It was a struggle to live without glasses when you're seriously,
00:18:19 --> 00:18:22 in my case, myopic or farsighted. And.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 I don't necessarily recommend that people try that experience.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:33 What I want them to do is to pull off their glasses and look at the world around
00:18:33 --> 00:18:42 them as they see themselves without any assistance, without any artificial devices.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:49 And for me, even though I don't wear glass, I don't see well without my glasses,
00:18:49 --> 00:18:52 I experienced a whole new world.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:59 A world that was mine, a world that was not mediated, you might say,
00:19:00 --> 00:19:03 by having a pair of glasses on at all times.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:09 And it allowed me to rethink my relationship with something that I overlook.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:18 Yeah. You know, it was, it was very interesting reading the journal part of,
00:19:18 --> 00:19:21 of the book. Cause you kind of did it a unique way.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:26 It was like, you would do the chapter and discuss like maybe the history or,
00:19:27 --> 00:19:29 you know, it's impact on movies or whatever.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:33 But in between each chapter, you were you know
00:19:33 --> 00:19:37 journaling a day without glasses and
00:19:37 --> 00:19:43 yes I was just like and you know and it was like you know when you said you
00:19:43 --> 00:19:49 injured yourself I felt that pain right but the scariest thing I think out of
00:19:49 --> 00:19:54 that whole experience was you went out to an event.
00:19:55 --> 00:20:01 Where people knew you and have known you to wear glasses all the time.
00:20:01 --> 00:20:09 And just the story you told about that, I think that was the most terrifying part for me.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:14 Just reading that, I was like, there's no way I would have went anywhere outside
00:20:14 --> 00:20:16 of that house without my glasses.
00:20:17 --> 00:20:20 Well, you're absolutely right. It was very scary.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 I'm a member of the Albuquerque Press Club and have been for many years.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 I'm a journalist in radio and print.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 And walking into a room without my glasses was a crowded room.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:38 That was the first time I ever did that in my life.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41 And I'm not entirely sure I'd do it again.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:49 People would wave at me, but I couldn't tell it was me they were waving at or somebody else.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:57 I kept trying to serve myself the food and it kept falling away from me.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:03 I couldn't even tell where it was because it sure wasn't on my plate or on my fork. And,
00:21:04 --> 00:21:11 it made me realize something that I don't like to think about,
00:21:11 --> 00:21:20 that those of us who have serious visual challenges fall within the category of the disabled.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:25 And I never wanted to put that name on myself.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:31 With glasses, I see pretty well. I can't get to 2020, but.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:39 Not too far off. But without them, I'm not the same person.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:45 And so that struggle to understand what people have gone through,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:51 to understand what people with even worse vision than myself have gone through
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 became a personal struggle.
00:21:53 --> 00:22:00 And it's one that challenged me to do things like walk into a room of 50 people,
00:22:00 --> 00:22:10 a third or a half of which know me, and just risk, well, a certain discomfort,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:12 maybe a certain shame as well.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:18 Yeah, yeah. Like I said, that took a lot of guts to honor that commitment.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:22 I understand that you're a member and all that, and you were trying to support
00:22:22 --> 00:22:27 the group, but yeah, I don't know. I've been like, Hey, I'm not feeling good
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 this week. Take a pass on that one. Yeah.
00:22:30 --> 00:22:33 I might've, might've had to come up with some, you remember you,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:37 well, I don't know if you ever did that, but you know, to call in the worker, like, Oh yeah.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:44 You know, that kind of thing. I would explain your kinship with a door.
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 And I don't even know how to say this person's name. Adoas.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 Aldous Huxley. Aldous. Yeah. Aldous. Yeah.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:58 Okay. Here's a man after which, for all intents and purposes,
00:22:58 --> 00:23:03 the first term highbrow was called.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:11 He's there. He's born in the 19th century and lived and died up to the day that John F.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:20 Kennedy died in November 22nd, 1963. He was generally regarded as one of the
00:23:20 --> 00:23:26 most brilliant writers of his century, the 20th century.
00:23:28 --> 00:23:35 I got engaged by him way back when I was in high school, and I was one of these
00:23:35 --> 00:23:40 kids with the thick lenses that read all the time, day and night, because,
00:23:40 --> 00:23:44 frankly, there wasn't many other opportunities.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:46 There weren't many other opportunities for them.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:54 And I ran across his Brave New World, which back in the day was a part of every U.S. story.
00:23:55 --> 00:24:00 High school, junior high school curriculum. It was about amusing ourselves to
00:24:00 --> 00:24:08 death, about how we become distracted, how the world is full of cloned people.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:14 And those people are, in fact, created into classes.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:21 So you're born with a class and that's not so fair nor so much fun.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:25 He had serious visual challenges.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:31 When he was in high school at Eton, a famous private school in England,
00:24:31 --> 00:24:40 he accidentally blinded himself, probably through a strep infection,
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 a dirty towel that someone else was using, and he lost his sight.
00:24:46 --> 00:24:52 He became blind for 18 months. And to give you some idea of the capacity of this man,
00:24:53 --> 00:25:02 he taught himself Braille, and he also taught himself to play the piano blind during that period.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:09 And he never recovered. His corneas were so scratched that it was looking at
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 him was like looking into two tiny blue clouds.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:20 And he struggled, and I have to say it's sobering that here's a man with that
00:25:20 --> 00:25:22 kind of visual difficulty,
00:25:22 --> 00:25:29 injury, that was able to write 60 books and become one of the world's best-selling
00:25:29 --> 00:25:32 authors during the 1920s.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:39 How amazing is that? And so he also put aside his glasses.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 He tried operations. They didn't
00:25:42 --> 00:25:49 work. Today, we could have cured his opaque corneas and let him see,
00:25:49 --> 00:25:57 but we didn't have that technology back in the 1930s, 40s, or 1950s, unfortunately.
00:25:57 --> 00:26:03 And his widespread view of the world and his willingness to challenge himself
00:26:03 --> 00:26:09 to see where nature had failed him was for me an inspiration.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:15 Yeah, yeah. I know he tried different experiments, you know,
00:26:15 --> 00:26:19 to try to strengthen his eyesight and all that stuff.
00:26:20 --> 00:26:26 And I guess, you know, for him, he had some success, but everybody else was
00:26:26 --> 00:26:27 saying, yeah, you still can't see.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:33 Well, I'm afraid there's some truth to that, and I don't know what else to say
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 except that he tried everything he could,
00:26:36 --> 00:26:44 and visual re-education, learning to find a way to see by relaxing your vision
00:26:44 --> 00:26:50 and relaxing the tension that you carry through meditation and other devices
00:26:50 --> 00:26:54 ultimately worked for him. He could function like.
00:26:55 --> 00:26:59 Largely function without his glasses. That having been said,
00:27:00 --> 00:27:04 his wife was very used to who he married in his 20s,
00:27:04 --> 00:27:10 was used to helping him around and telling him about people who were across
00:27:10 --> 00:27:15 the room that he couldn't see and guiding him across the street.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:26 And without Maria Huxley's incredible support, both in his writing and his managing low vision.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:36 He managed himself to do an amazing amount of thinking and writing with a lot of lessons for today.
00:27:36 --> 00:27:40 I wrote two books about him. One is called Aldous Huxley Recollected,
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 and another is about the european immigrants
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 in hollywood during its golden age and
00:27:48 --> 00:27:51 it's just called huxley in hollywood yeah and
00:27:51 --> 00:27:55 and you know in the book that i've just completed a
00:27:55 --> 00:28:03 four-eyed world how glasses changed how we see in that in that book which we're
00:28:03 --> 00:28:11 talking about i go back and and and look again at how he struggled to see and what that meant for me.
00:28:12 --> 00:28:16 Yeah. Tell the listeners the story of Roger Bacon.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:24 Okay. Well, this is kind of a sad story. It's a tale of a man who...
00:28:26 --> 00:28:33 Went to jail for trying to invent glasses. I know that sounds really crazy,
00:28:33 --> 00:28:35 so I'm going to have to give you the backstory.
00:28:36 --> 00:28:40 When glasses were first invented at the end of the 13th century,
00:28:40 --> 00:28:50 a great long time ago, the Catholic Church was deeply suspicious of the, well,
00:28:50 --> 00:28:57 of the effects of people, anybody, learning to be able to read sacred texts
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 without a priest interpreting them.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:06 They kind of wanted to keep control over the Bible and how it's understood.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:12 And they then thought that glasses were the work of the devil.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 In fact, some of the first illustrations of the devil occur around the time
00:29:18 --> 00:29:23 of the invention of glasses, and he usually is wearing glasses.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:27 Though why he can't see, nobody says.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:36 So, Roger Bacon was something of a genius who started Oxford at age 13.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 Now, that's something not many people could do.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:43 And he spoke six languages, including Arabic.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:51 And that allowed him to study the scientific texts of the great Persian and
00:29:51 --> 00:29:58 Arabic inventors as early as the 10th century who discovered the properties of lenses.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:04 And so he kept telling everybody, hey, this is going to amaze you,
00:30:04 --> 00:30:09 but if you put a lens in front of your eye, you can see images clearly after
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 you reach the age of, say, 45.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:19 He was right. But the Franciscan order that he was a part of took the position
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 that the church did, that this was the work of the devil,
00:30:23 --> 00:30:28 and the more he succeeded in showing the properties of lenses,
00:30:29 --> 00:30:36 the more they persecuted him until finally they locked him in a dark cell and
00:30:36 --> 00:30:39 pushed food through a slot in the door.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:46 For seven years he sat there in the dark for trying to help people see.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:54 When he died, His supposed last comments were, I regret having given myself
00:30:54 --> 00:30:57 so much trouble to help people see.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:03 Yeah. What was Benjamin Franklin's contribution to eyeglasses?
00:31:04 --> 00:31:09 Well, most Americans know of Benjamin Franklin,
00:31:09 --> 00:31:16 and probably what they know of is him putting a key on a kite and flying it
00:31:16 --> 00:31:19 in the air in a storm to attract lightning.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:27 He did do that, but he was a great deal more. He was a statesman. He was an inventor.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:28 He was a printer.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:32 He was a newspaper publisher. Sure.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:41 But he had suffered what most of us suffer, which is a thing called presbyopia,
00:31:41 --> 00:31:48 which is what sends people to buy reading glasses when their eyes and them age.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:55 Forties, fifties, sixties, most people need reading glasses to see up close.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 Even if they're nearsighted, they need them.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:08 Now, on a long journey, when he was representing the American colonies in France and England,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:16 he had gotten tired of changing his glasses to look out the window and see the
00:32:16 --> 00:32:19 scenery or to look up close and read.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:26 And so he got this idea in his head that he would, when he got back to town.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:36 Saw, find someone who could saw a lens that would be part distance vision and part close-up vision.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:41 This is today what we call bifocals or, as a matter of fact,
00:32:41 --> 00:32:43 what we call progressive lenses.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:50 There, there's no line between the top and bottom. He was not actually the first
00:32:50 --> 00:32:56 person to invent these glasses, but he was certainly the first person to popularize them.
00:32:57 --> 00:32:59 And as a matter of fact, at the French
00:32:59 --> 00:33:05 court, he would walk in wearing his glasses, and for the first time,
00:33:05 --> 00:33:12 people began to have a sense that important people could need and wear glasses.
00:33:14 --> 00:33:20 What is myopia, and why do you think we are in an epidemic concerning myopia?
00:33:20 --> 00:33:27 Well, myopia is something that happens to starting with children.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:30 As they grow, their eyeballs grow.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:38 And if certain conditions are not right, their eyeballs will grow too wide,
00:33:39 --> 00:33:43 too long, sort of like a football rather than a baseball.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:52 And there is a very simple way of avoiding that, which really every grandparent,
00:33:52 --> 00:33:58 every aunt, every uncle, every parent needs to know, because it can save your
00:33:58 --> 00:34:04 kids a great deal of trouble in the years to come. It goes like this.
00:34:05 --> 00:34:13 The son is the best optometrist, as the New York Times headed an article on this very topic.
00:34:13 --> 00:34:21 If your child goes out daily Two to three hours in the bright sunlight playing
00:34:21 --> 00:34:25 What happens is that a child,
00:34:26 --> 00:34:34 It inhibits the production of an enzyme in your body called retinal dopamine,
00:34:34 --> 00:34:44 which is what causes your eyes to grow too long and have a focus which is in front.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:50 The lens in your eye by itself sends the image not to the retina where it can
00:34:50 --> 00:34:58 be passed to the brain through the optic nerve, but in front of the lens, the retina.
00:34:58 --> 00:35:02 And what glasses do is they kick that back to the retina.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:07 And that's why we have different prescriptions, because different people have
00:35:07 --> 00:35:12 different issues with getting that image to the retina.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:19 It's not much. You can even have your kids, if they're serious readers, read outside.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:27 But a combination of use in early childhood of screens, like playing with a phone,
00:35:28 --> 00:35:32 of overusing computers as your
00:35:32 --> 00:35:39 eyes are developing from roughly the age of four to the age of 19, and,
00:35:39 --> 00:35:51 These things, in combination with not getting outside, are causing myopia problems around the world.
00:35:51 --> 00:36:01 Today, in Singapore, in Southeast Asia, some 95% of teenagers have to wear glasses.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:06 In China, that amount, the percentage of people wearing glasses,
00:36:07 --> 00:36:09 has doubled in the last half century.
00:36:09 --> 00:36:13 And it's happening right here in the United States.
00:36:13 --> 00:36:19 As we focus more on small screens, as students are pressured to work harder
00:36:19 --> 00:36:27 and harder to succeed later on in life, you get a situation where they're not
00:36:27 --> 00:36:28 outside playing anymore.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:30 They're inside playing with screens.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:37 And the combination of those two things is really a problem for your health.
00:36:38 --> 00:36:45 And that problem extends because once you're seriously nearsighted as a kid,
00:36:45 --> 00:36:49 you go out into the playground and people are going to pick on you.
00:36:49 --> 00:36:50 They're going to tease you.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 And sometimes kids can't handle that. And...
00:36:56 --> 00:37:02 Just freak out and no longer feel that they're one of the gang,
00:37:03 --> 00:37:08 that they're desirable, that they're a good person. They think of themselves as losers.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:11 It affects their social development.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:18 It also creates a condition later on in life where you're more likely to have
00:37:18 --> 00:37:23 retinal detachments, where the retina detaches from the rest of the eye,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:31 and macular degeneration when your overall visual health is declining.
00:37:31 --> 00:37:40 All of these things are a result of severe myopia, so you want to avoid it if you possibly can.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:48 There are even today brand new other ways of avoiding the development or slowing
00:37:48 --> 00:37:49 the development of myopia.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:53 Sorry, this is a long answer, but it's a really important topic.
00:37:54 --> 00:37:56 There are special contact lenses
00:37:56 --> 00:38:01 kids can put in. There are special eye drops that can be given them.
00:38:01 --> 00:38:07 And these things will slow the process of developing serious myopia.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:14 But frankly, sending the kids out to play in a supervised, safe environment is a lot easier.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:21 Yeah. All right. I got a few more questions. You had mentioned about the kids,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:26 you know, feeling some kind of way if they have to wear glasses.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:31 But if two thirds of the world's population wears glasses, why is there a stigma?
00:38:31 --> 00:38:37 Why is it that people still have these feelings that they're inadequate because they wear glasses?
00:38:39 --> 00:38:44 Well, it actually goes back to the 13th century and what we were talking about with Roger Bacon.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:49 Pretty much as soon as somebody figured out how to make a pair of glasses,
00:38:49 --> 00:38:52 somebody else denounced them as the devil's work.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:59 And that went on for centuries. And then it kind of bled into the idea that
00:38:59 --> 00:39:07 if you show yourself wearing glasses, you show yourself as weak.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:13 For women in particular, maybe the idea was that you would pass along some physical
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15 weakness to your children.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:23 It came to be that wearing glasses, particularly for women, was considered about,
00:39:23 --> 00:39:29 what's the phrase in this article that I read?
00:39:30 --> 00:39:36 A century ago, wearing glasses was a bit like brandishing your wooden leg in public.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 And of course there's that old comment by
00:39:41 --> 00:39:44 poet dorothy parker men seldom make
00:39:44 --> 00:39:48 passes at girls who wear glasses and
00:39:48 --> 00:39:51 and since then it has it has
00:39:51 --> 00:39:57 continued but in different ways go out this afternoon or evening to a restaurant
00:39:57 --> 00:40:07 or a bar or coffee house and watch as the minute somebody pulls out their phone
00:40:07 --> 00:40:10 to take a selfie, everybody rips off their glasses,
00:40:10 --> 00:40:16 particularly the women, because they don't see themselves as glasses wearers.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:21 They see themselves as physically perfect, and who wants to show that you have
00:40:21 --> 00:40:25 some small imperfection?
00:40:26 --> 00:40:29 Yeah, yeah. So I guess that leads to this question.
00:40:29 --> 00:40:35 Have glasses shaped our culture, or has culture shaped the wearing of glasses?
00:40:36 --> 00:40:39 Oh, gosh, that's another good one.
00:40:40 --> 00:40:45 Obviously, humans had a well-developed culture long before glasses existed.
00:40:45 --> 00:40:48 We built roads. We had wheels.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:56 We managed to learn to cook and raise food. So culture is a dynamic process
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 that is constantly in flux and changing.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:03 What glasses did was, first of all,
00:41:03 --> 00:41:12 enable people to work beyond their 40s and vastly increase the productivity
00:41:12 --> 00:41:16 of society because a person who was 50,
00:41:16 --> 00:41:20 a person who was 60, They could still hold down a job if they had a pair of
00:41:20 --> 00:41:28 glasses to put on so they could read better and see better what was up close.
00:41:29 --> 00:41:36 This in turn led to whole industries like education, like publishing,
00:41:37 --> 00:41:41 like literacy, like colleges.
00:41:41 --> 00:41:50 Because if you couldn't see well, how were you going to read all those books and articles and learn?
00:41:50 --> 00:41:57 It opened up new frontiers in trade because you could see the person you were
00:41:57 --> 00:42:01 trading with and he or she could see the objects they were buying.
00:42:03 --> 00:42:12 It created a new world, a brave new world for people who could finally see past
00:42:12 --> 00:42:16 the limitations which nature gave them.
00:42:16 --> 00:42:19 And that's the story of a four-eyed world.
00:42:19 --> 00:42:26 It's the struggle that we have had as humans to perfect our sight and to see
00:42:26 --> 00:42:31 beyond the limitations that we may have been born with. Yeah.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:34 Do you think glasses shape our politics?
00:42:35 --> 00:42:40 Okay. Well, I have a funny and very topical story.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:47 I live in New Mexico, and Deborah Haaland was just picked up by Democratic voters
00:42:47 --> 00:42:50 75 to 25 over her opponent.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:56 And Deborah wears glasses. And Deborah also happens to have been my student
00:42:56 --> 00:43:00 in college writing classes for a year and a half.
00:43:00 --> 00:43:06 And so I was, she, she appears in public usually without her glasses,
00:43:06 --> 00:43:12 but she doesn't care much for contact lenses for a variety of reasons.
00:43:13 --> 00:43:17 So I was talking with her, helping to edit her autobiography,
00:43:17 --> 00:43:20 which also comes out next week.
00:43:21 --> 00:43:27 And I said, you know, Deborah, I think you should consider going out and getting
00:43:27 --> 00:43:31 new glasses, and I want your daughter to pick them out for you,
00:43:31 --> 00:43:37 not yourself, because we don't want professional glasses.
00:43:39 --> 00:43:47 Old-fashioned glasses. We want you to show a little spark in your glasses,
00:43:47 --> 00:43:52 like mine, which your listeners can't hear, which are bright red in color.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:59 There's so many styles available to us, new choices made out of new capacities
00:43:59 --> 00:44:03 for frames that we can choose that.
00:44:03 --> 00:44:10 And to come back to your question, glasses, yes, are a very important part of
00:44:10 --> 00:44:14 the image that a politician presents.
00:44:14 --> 00:44:18 The recently elected, I think it's about a year now,
00:44:18 --> 00:44:27 Prime Minister of Canada changed his glasses out from strict black squares or
00:44:27 --> 00:44:29 rectangles to something a little
00:44:30 --> 00:44:38 and immediately his profile with the voters increased because they saw him as
00:44:38 --> 00:44:43 a bit more with it than wearing very much old-fashioned glasses.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:50 And that's just a recent example of how politicians have remade themselves by
00:44:50 --> 00:44:52 putting on different pairs of glasses.
00:44:53 --> 00:45:01 Yeah, it was like I was, there was a study done in 2018. It's a University of Grognagin.
00:45:01 --> 00:45:03 It's in the Netherlands. Yeah.
00:45:03 --> 00:45:09 But their study said that U.S. politicians had increased electoral success if
00:45:09 --> 00:45:12 they wore glasses. And they were even breaking it down, I think.
00:45:13 --> 00:45:16 Or maybe that was you that was breaking it. It was somebody that was breaking
00:45:16 --> 00:45:24 it down about if they wore glasses and had a beard, they did better and all that kind of stuff.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:28 And then, you know, Truman had to wear glasses.
00:45:28 --> 00:45:31 Both the Roosevelt's wore glasses. so you
00:45:31 --> 00:45:35 know and that was part of their persona you
00:45:35 --> 00:45:38 know whenever they did a caricature of them they always had
00:45:38 --> 00:45:44 the glasses in there because i i can't say it's a front of punish what that
00:45:44 --> 00:45:51 roosevelt had the ones with no frames it was just they would pass pass nez it
00:45:51 --> 00:45:56 means pinch your nose It was the old glasses that didn't have frames.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:02 Yes, Teddy Roosevelt made those popular, but they were something that happened
00:46:02 --> 00:46:10 in the 20s from the 1880s to the 1930s for all intents and purposes.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:12 But sometimes they weren't very practical.
00:46:13 --> 00:46:18 They often came with a ribbon that ran down and it would get in your food.
00:46:19 --> 00:46:24 Who needs glasses that get down in your food? So that gave way.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:27 But you're absolutely right.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:30 Even Adolf Hitler, who needed...
00:46:31 --> 00:46:37 Glasses, seriously, was not allowed to wear them in public because that was
00:46:37 --> 00:46:41 thought to indicate a weakness of the Fuhrer.
00:46:41 --> 00:46:46 So they kept those glasses off him at all times. I don't think I've ever seen
00:46:46 --> 00:46:48 a picture of him with glasses.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:56 And there are many other examples of famous politicians who have either turned
00:46:56 --> 00:47:02 to glasses to jazz up their image because many people associate wearing glasses
00:47:02 --> 00:47:04 with enhanced intelligence,
00:47:04 --> 00:47:09 perhaps because it was associated with reading a great deal,
00:47:09 --> 00:47:16 particularly giving you eye strain under diminished light.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:21 So there are other qualities associated with wearing glasses,
00:47:21 --> 00:47:29 but the best one arguably is that it makes some people think you're smarter than you might be.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:36 Right. You mentioned the moment in 1783 when General Washington asked his soldiers
00:47:36 --> 00:47:39 for permission to put on his spectacles.
00:47:39 --> 00:47:42 Do you know what the backstory was on that?
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 Well, again, spectacles in the
00:47:46 --> 00:47:51 age of George Washington in the American colonies were not produced here.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:56 They were produced in Europe as they had been for centuries,
00:47:56 --> 00:47:57 and they were all imported.
00:47:58 --> 00:48:04 And so it wasn't exactly promoting domestic industry to put on a pair of glasses.
00:48:06 --> 00:48:09 Also glasses were very expensive they
00:48:09 --> 00:48:12 often came with silver frames okay in
00:48:12 --> 00:48:15 the early days because silver and and
00:48:15 --> 00:48:20 gold for that matter for the very rich are easy to metals to work they're soft
00:48:20 --> 00:48:28 metals as opposed to steel which once it's cast you can't do a lot with so he
00:48:28 --> 00:48:33 did not want to show himself as someone who, a man of wealth.
00:48:33 --> 00:48:38 He was not a man of wealth. He was a surveyor, for goodness sake, when he started.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:44 So I think he was a little hesitant before he put them on, but he talked to
00:48:44 --> 00:48:51 his troops and he said, as you can see, my eyes have grown weak from serving my country.
00:48:51 --> 00:48:56 And I think that's something that people were able to relate to,
00:48:56 --> 00:49:07 that you give up some of your visual ability for the right of people to serve the people.
00:49:07 --> 00:49:13 Well, it was very deliberate that he did that. So the backstory on that was,
00:49:13 --> 00:49:15 if you've heard of Horatio Gates.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:21 He was Washington's rival, and he wanted to be the commander,
00:49:21 --> 00:49:23 the head commander of the Continental Army.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:28 And so by about this time, they'd been fighting for a while.
00:49:28 --> 00:49:33 A lot of guys hadn't been paid and all that stuff. So Gates was kind of organizing a mutiny.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:40 And so Washington found out about it and showed up. And so in the middle of,
00:49:40 --> 00:49:44 you know, he started reading his note. And then in the middle of kind of reading
00:49:44 --> 00:49:46 it, he looked like he was having a little trouble.
00:49:46 --> 00:49:51 So he reached in and put his spectacles on. And that's when he said that famous quote.
00:49:51 --> 00:49:59 But what he was trying to do was shift the thing and let the officers know,
00:49:59 --> 00:50:03 because it was primarily officers in the room, that he was one of them.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:06 And I know y'all have been struggling, but I've been struggling too.
00:50:07 --> 00:50:11 And so he basically quashed a mutiny just by taking those glasses out.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:16 Fascinating. That is the fact I have never run into, but I think it is entirely
00:50:16 --> 00:50:22 characteristic of George Washington and his political intelligence. Yeah.
00:50:23 --> 00:50:25 Real quick, in your book, you
00:50:25 --> 00:50:29 suggested that smart glasses could bring it into privacy as we know it.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:33 I think that's pretty obvious, but kind of talk about where you were coming from with that.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:38 Well, okay. Smart glasses come in a variety of types.
00:50:38 --> 00:50:44 There's virtual reality glasses, which shut you off pretty much completely from
00:50:44 --> 00:50:49 the world around you and plunge you into some designer's dream world.
00:50:49 --> 00:50:55 And then there's augmented reality glasses, which lets you see through your
00:50:55 --> 00:51:03 lenses as they are, but also hang a little image on top, on the right or on the left or above.
00:51:03 --> 00:51:09 And that image displays information which glasses have been able to capture.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:17 And MET has been making Ray-Bans, special augmented reality glasses,
00:51:18 --> 00:51:20 that will give you information.
00:51:20 --> 00:51:23 For example, you're trying to assemble some furniture.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:28 You can get a schematic hanging in front of you. You're trying to fix your engine.
00:51:28 --> 00:51:35 And again, you can get something that hangs in front of you to help you make your way where.
00:51:36 --> 00:51:39 So it's a social good. Anybody who works without their.
00:51:41 --> 00:51:45 You know, hands has a need to,
00:51:45 --> 00:51:51 I mean, works with their hands, has a need, a serious need for help because
00:51:51 --> 00:51:56 they can't be opening a manual to look at these things. So it's a social good.
00:51:57 --> 00:52:02 Where things turn dark is already something that's happening.
00:52:02 --> 00:52:11 Meta is about to launch facial recognition on these augmented reality AR glasses,
00:52:11 --> 00:52:17 which means you can walk down the street and see the name of pretty much anybody you see.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:23 Now, there are a lot of errors in that, and it's not a big jump between that
00:52:23 --> 00:52:29 and the police using them to find out if you have a record, people using them
00:52:29 --> 00:52:31 to find out your marital status.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:37 Your economic status. All this data is hiding around on the internet,
00:52:37 --> 00:52:43 and it's just waiting for someone to take the next step and pile all that data
00:52:43 --> 00:52:50 into a database, which your glasses will be able to read and display to you.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:55 And for me, that's turning the public sphere into a goldfish bowl,
00:52:55 --> 00:53:02 where anybody walking by you can be taking pictures and recording sound of everything
00:53:02 --> 00:53:08 they see and hear and streaming that to whomever they like.
00:53:08 --> 00:53:13 This is not the far future. This is already happening,
00:53:13 --> 00:53:21 and it raises a political question of when we will recognize that this new technology
00:53:21 --> 00:53:30 requires legislators to take the next step and regulate it before, like AI,
00:53:31 --> 00:53:33 it gets too far.
00:53:33 --> 00:53:38 Yeah, yeah. And that's why I wanted to make sure we touched on that before we end it.
00:53:39 --> 00:53:44 So what do you want readers of your book to get from it?
00:53:45 --> 00:53:49 Well, I first want them to be able to find the book. So I'm going to give a
00:53:49 --> 00:53:51 website where they can do that.
00:53:51 --> 00:53:54 It is aforeeyedworld.com.
00:53:55 --> 00:54:00 That's it, aforeeyedworld.com. And you're there and you can read excerpts,
00:54:00 --> 00:54:04 you can read reviews, you can read a little bit about me as well.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:11 I want them to take away this notion of protecting their children and their
00:54:11 --> 00:54:15 grandchildren by getting them out to play.
00:54:15 --> 00:54:19 Even if you have to sit with them while they're doing it, they need that bright
00:54:19 --> 00:54:22 sunlight for their eyes to develop normally.
00:54:23 --> 00:54:28 Next, I want them to understand that there is no shame in wearing glasses.
00:54:29 --> 00:54:36 Though people have tried to create a notion that, and it has lived with us,
00:54:36 --> 00:54:41 particularly for women, that wearing glasses makes you look weak,
00:54:41 --> 00:54:45 it's time to ditch that idea entirely.
00:54:45 --> 00:54:54 It's time to stop children from being teased and bullied because their eyes are weak.
00:54:54 --> 00:55:01 And finally, it's time for those of us who've been wearing glasses since we were children.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:08 Stop and consider what that might have done to us because of people's stereotypes
00:55:08 --> 00:55:16 and bias and prejudice against wearing glasses and how that bled over into how they saw us.
00:55:16 --> 00:55:22 And then the final step, how we saw ourselves. Yeah.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:29 Yeah. And your book is, like you said, it's more than just the history of glasses and all that.
00:55:29 --> 00:55:37 I mean, you go deep into the social impacts and even with your journal journey,
00:55:37 --> 00:55:44 as far as not wearing them for a week, it was a lot of introspection that you revealed in that.
00:55:44 --> 00:55:48 And so that makes the book a very, very fascinating read.
00:55:49 --> 00:55:52 Finish this sentence. I have hope because...
00:55:53 --> 00:56:00 I have hope for glasses wearers, glassers, because thanks to Harry Potter and
00:56:00 --> 00:56:03 many other different kinds of image,
00:56:03 --> 00:56:09 new image portrayals in the movies, in books of people who wear glasses,
00:56:09 --> 00:56:16 I have hope that the stigma against wearing glasses will one day vanish.
00:56:16 --> 00:56:24 Yeah. Well, David Dunaway, you've done your part in producing this book, A Four-Eyed World.
00:56:24 --> 00:56:28 And I am really, really honored to talk to you. I was really honored to read the book.
00:56:28 --> 00:56:34 And I wish you much success in that. But outside of going to the website,
00:56:34 --> 00:56:39 is there a way people can get in touch with you to kind of pick your brain some
00:56:39 --> 00:56:42 more about this or other stuff?
00:56:42 --> 00:56:47 Because when you read the book, people will realize how well read you are.
00:56:48 --> 00:56:55 And so I'm sure that if they read it, they'll have some questions about Huxley
00:56:55 --> 00:56:58 or anybody else that you mentioned in the book.
00:56:58 --> 00:57:06 Well, probably the easiest way is just to go to the website which features the book,
00:57:06 --> 00:57:13 and it's called aforeeyedworld.com, because from there you can reach out to me. I'm all over the web.
00:57:14 --> 00:57:18 I write books. I'm a professor. I teach. I lecture.
00:57:19 --> 00:57:24 These days, I'm talking mainly about Route 66 because this year is the 100th
00:57:24 --> 00:57:30 anniversary of the world's most famous road, about which I've published three books already.
00:57:30 --> 00:57:33 So i look forward to hearing from
00:57:33 --> 00:57:36 people after they've read my book and want
00:57:36 --> 00:57:42 to raise questions doubts look again at the experience that they've had throughout
00:57:42 --> 00:57:47 their life of wearing glasses and what it meant to them all right well david
00:57:47 --> 00:57:53 thank you again for coming on thank you eric it's been fun yes sir all right guys we're.
00:58:13 --> 00:58:20 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Lakeland Barnes.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:26 Lakeland Barnes brings more than a decade of experience in the nonprofit sector
00:58:26 --> 00:58:31 and over 10 years working with governmental systems, where she has developed
00:58:31 --> 00:58:35 a deep understanding of policy, governance, and community needs.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:39 With a background in political science, she has dedicated the last seven years
00:58:39 --> 00:58:44 specifically to advocacy and civic engagement, equipping communities with the
00:58:44 --> 00:58:48 tools and resources to drive meaningful change.
00:58:48 --> 00:58:54 As both a professional and a mother, Lakeland's commitment to advocacy has only grown stronger.
00:58:54 --> 00:58:59 Motherhood has given her an even greater sense of urgency to ensure that all
00:58:59 --> 00:59:05 communities, especially those historically marginalized, have a voice in the
00:59:05 --> 00:59:07 decisions that impact their daily lives.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:12 Her work reflects a passion for building bridges between people and institutions,
00:59:13 --> 00:59:18 amplifying underrepresented voices, and fostering long-term civic participation.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:23 Whether in nonprofit leadership, government collaboration, or grassroots organizing,
00:59:24 --> 00:59:28 Lakeland's career reflects her belief that advocacy is not just a profession,
00:59:28 --> 00:59:32 but a calling rooted in service, justice, and equity.
00:59:32 --> 00:59:38 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast.
00:59:50 --> 00:59:54 All right. Lakeland Barnes, how you doing?
00:59:55 --> 00:59:58 I am doing well. I'm doing well, Erik. How are you doing today?
00:59:58 --> 01:00:02 I'm doing fine, ma'am. I'm doing good. I'm really glad that you can make it.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:07 And I'm kind of excited because I like talking to young people.
01:00:08 --> 01:00:14 You know, I was young once and I used to, I used to, I got real involved when
01:00:14 --> 01:00:17 I was young, especially when I was in college.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:22 And so whenever I see young people getting engaged, it really,
01:00:22 --> 01:00:23 it really gets me excited.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:28 And since I have this format, I like to try to highlight as many of them as I can.
01:00:28 --> 01:00:32 So what I want to do is start off like I normally do with a couple of icebreakers.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:36 So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:45 Okay. And the quote is, for by him, all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,
01:00:45 --> 01:00:50 visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers,
01:00:51 --> 01:00:56 all things were created through him and for him. What does that quote mean to you?
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 Erik, that is so funny that you read that scripture because that is actually
01:00:59 --> 01:01:01 one of my favorite scriptures.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:04 And what it means to me is the fact that.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:09 I think sometimes we put God in a box. I think that we determine,
01:01:09 --> 01:01:12 oh, because this feels good to me, that means he made this thing.
01:01:13 --> 01:01:17 But this thing that feels bad to me, he could not have had any parts in it,
01:01:17 --> 01:01:19 but he created all things.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:23 So whether it feels good to us or not, he has created all things.
01:01:24 --> 01:01:26 All things that sit under the sun, he has dominion over.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:32 And so for me, it kind of changes my mindset to get me to understand that just
01:01:32 --> 01:01:37 the way that I think is not totally who God is.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:41 It's not all that he does. It's not all who he is because he did all things.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:48 And it takes me back to in the story of David where David was having to run
01:01:48 --> 01:01:50 from Saul, about to get killed.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:54 The Bible says that God caused an evil spirit to fall over Saul.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:59 Most people would say, well, no, that can't be true because God can't control
01:01:59 --> 01:02:03 evil spirits, but he controls all things. He has dominion over all things.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:08 And so just because it doesn't look good or it doesn't feel good doesn't mean that it's not of God.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:11 And so, yeah, that's just one of my favorite scriptures. And I think it kind
01:02:11 --> 01:02:16 of just changed the way that I view God and just view just the things of the world.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:22 I got you. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:27 Okay. Okay. So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:31 1 and 20, 15. Okay.
01:02:31 --> 01:02:36 When you think about the challenges our country faces, what gives you hope?
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 When I look at the challenges that the country is facing, what gives me hope
01:02:42 --> 01:02:45 is the fact that community is still standing up in the face of adversity.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:54 I think that community is the most integral piece to fighting against a system that isn't for you.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:58 I think community is the ultimate form of rebellion, especially here in America,
01:02:58 --> 01:03:01 because capitalism seeks to divide community.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:05 And so people still showing up for one another, still protesting,
01:03:06 --> 01:03:09 making their voices loud, taking food boxes to their neighbors,
01:03:09 --> 01:03:13 walking the streets, asking people, are they OK or do they need anything?
01:03:13 --> 01:03:18 That gives me hope because that lets me know that we are coming together instead
01:03:18 --> 01:03:20 of splitting further apart. Yeah.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:25 All right. So that's one question you don't have to answer later on.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:29 Because usually I try to close out with that, with a question about hope.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:35 But since you picked number 15, we'll go ahead.
01:03:35 --> 01:03:41 What led you to drive change and growth as a community organizer and nonprofit consultant?
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 Okay, so funny story. In high school, I...
01:03:49 --> 01:03:52 Witnessed somebody getting bullied at school. So my senior year of high school,
01:03:52 --> 01:03:53 I saw somebody getting bullied.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:59 And I'm just not a person who thinks that you should harm others. That's just not my MO.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 And so I went to my principal and I told him, I don't like that this is happening.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 I don't want this to happen. You need to do something about it.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:10 And he looked at me and he said, I'm not going to do anything about it. You are.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:15 And so he said, we have this organization at the school. It's called SAFE.
01:04:15 --> 01:04:19 I need you to be the president over it. And I need you to get other students
01:04:19 --> 01:04:21 involved. That was my challenge.
01:04:21 --> 01:04:23 And so that's what I did.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:27 I literally was crazy because I started getting mailed to the school.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:30 Teachers were like, girl, what are you doing? Why are you getting mail here?
01:04:30 --> 01:04:33 But it was because I was getting those materials, sharing them with students
01:04:33 --> 01:04:38 and teachers, trying to engage them in a way around bullying that wasn't,
01:04:38 --> 01:04:43 you know, the typical conversation. And so that was kind of my first start.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:47 It made me see that sometimes when you go to power and you talk to power,
01:04:47 --> 01:04:50 they may put the challenge in your hand to fix it. So then what do you do?
01:04:51 --> 01:04:55 And so I left high school, went to college.
01:04:55 --> 01:05:00 And when I got to Atlanta, because I went to Georgia State, when I got to Atlanta,
01:05:01 --> 01:05:03 it baffled me how many homeless people were living there.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:07 I had never in my life seen this many homeless people. Matter of fact,
01:05:08 --> 01:05:11 I don't even think I had saw just that many people in general.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:14 But then to see that many homeless people really, really broke my heart.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:19 And so I wanted to figure out what are some things that I can do to help.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:24 Actively impact that, you know, that demographic. And so some of the things
01:05:24 --> 01:05:26 that I started doing was giving out blankets, giving out food.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:30 I would walk down the street and just check on them. Hey, how are you doing
01:05:30 --> 01:05:32 today? You need anything? You took your medicine?
01:05:32 --> 01:05:35 Not because I was rich. I mean, I was a poor college student,
01:05:35 --> 01:05:39 you know, but doing things like that made me happy.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:46 It fueled my, not just my joy, but my passion. And I wanted to realize that
01:05:46 --> 01:05:49 I had a passion and affinity for people.
01:05:49 --> 01:05:53 And I wanted to help people and I wanted to do something that benefited my community.
01:05:54 --> 01:05:58 Because everybody wants to be famous, but nobody, nobody wants to do the work
01:05:58 --> 01:06:01 of community to be famous, if that makes sense. And so I said,
01:06:01 --> 01:06:02 that's what I'm going to do.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:06 I'm going to be a person who is going to make a change in their community.
01:06:06 --> 01:06:09 When people say Lakeland Barnes, I want them to say, yes, I know Lakeland because
01:06:09 --> 01:06:14 she helped me do X, Y, and Z, or she walked with me through X, Y, and Z.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:20 And since then, the bug, I can't get rid of it. I love doing nonprofit work.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:23 I believe that even through my work as a nonprofit consultant,
01:06:23 --> 01:06:29 it's a joy being able to see nonprofits, even if they are struggling or just
01:06:29 --> 01:06:32 starting out, it's a joy to see them in the work that they want to do and the
01:06:32 --> 01:06:36 work that they choose to do, because a lot of times it's work that's overlooked.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:39 It's work that most people don't feel is important.
01:06:39 --> 01:06:43 And so it's always beautiful to me to be able to champion them and to encourage
01:06:43 --> 01:06:46 them because most of the time it's not that people can't do it.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:50 It's just that they don't have the support to do it. And so through my role
01:06:50 --> 01:06:53 as a nonprofit consultant, I get the opportunity to pour into people.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:57 And then also through as a community organizer, I get to talk to people every
01:06:57 --> 01:07:00 day, literally. That is my job. I get to, you know.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:05 Not only try to engage them at the work that I'm doing, but asking them, how are they doing?
01:07:06 --> 01:07:09 How's life going? Because believe it or not, most people don't get that.
01:07:09 --> 01:07:12 Most people don't get somebody asking them, how was your day today?
01:07:13 --> 01:07:16 You know, what's going on with you and actually getting it, you know?
01:07:17 --> 01:07:21 And so all in all, I hope that wasn't too long.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:26 But that is how I've been able to drive community change,
01:07:26 --> 01:07:30 simply just by showing up in the community, loving on people being there being
01:07:30 --> 01:07:36 honest and allowing my experience my life experience to kind of frame the way
01:07:36 --> 01:07:41 in which i engage with community so you said you went to georgia state yes sir
01:07:41 --> 01:07:45 okay why did i think you went to savannah state for a reason.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:54 Because so I did go to Georgia State and then I went to Savannah State, put it like that.
01:07:55 --> 01:07:58 I went to Georgia State. I came from Augusta, went to Georgia State.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:04 And let's just say I it was just too much for me. It was too big of a school.
01:08:04 --> 01:08:07 You had classes with 120 people in it.
01:08:08 --> 01:08:12 And I was like, this is overwhelming. But I also don't want to go home.
01:08:13 --> 01:08:18 And so I spent, so I think after me going to Georgia State for about two years,
01:08:18 --> 01:08:20 I took like a couple years off.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:24 You know, there are plenty of reasons why I took that time off,
01:08:25 --> 01:08:28 but for the most part, it was because I was genuinely overwhelmed in Atlanta.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:30 It's always something to do.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:34 It's always somewhere to go. And that was just overwhelming from somebody who
01:08:34 --> 01:08:36 didn't come from that environment.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:40 And so, yeah, Georgia State was a great time, met a lot of great people,
01:08:41 --> 01:08:43 some of the best professors in the world at Georgia State.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:47 But no, Savannah State is home. That's home.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:55 Okay. So what about going to an HBCU other than you had smaller class sizes,
01:08:55 --> 01:09:00 you weren't tempted as much, I guess, in Savannah as you were in Atlanta.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:05 What else did that environment do to help you become the person that you are now?
01:09:06 --> 01:09:12 So I always wanted to go to an HBCU after I had spent a year at Georgia State
01:09:12 --> 01:09:18 because at the time I didn't know the difference between a PWI and HBCU. I knew like.
01:09:20 --> 01:09:23 I guess, like through learning what the differences were, but I didn't know
01:09:23 --> 01:09:25 like going there practically what the differences were.
01:09:25 --> 01:09:31 And so I think that being able to go to an HBCU, the benefit in that is that
01:09:31 --> 01:09:34 one, coming from a PWI, teachers don't really care.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:39 They genuinely don't care, especially with us at a school that size.
01:09:39 --> 01:09:44 They don't care if you show up to class. Oh, well, if you need extra tutoring,
01:09:44 --> 01:09:48 they're going to send their TA to do it. You're not going to be able to talk to them.
01:09:48 --> 01:09:52 And even if you just really wanted to walk in through their office hours,
01:09:52 --> 01:09:58 even though most students don't utilize that because of the difference in their size,
01:09:59 --> 01:10:01 even though a lot of students weren't utilizing office hours,
01:10:01 --> 01:10:03 a lot of students were utilizing office hours.
01:10:03 --> 01:10:07 And so teachers really, you kind of fell by the wayside in a lot of things.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 But I found at Savannah State, I was able to talk to my professors.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:15 Like I could stay after class if I had questions and ask them.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:20 Being in the South, Southern courtesy is a thing. Going to a PWI,
01:10:20 --> 01:10:22 they don't care. That's not a thing.
01:10:22 --> 01:10:27 But at HBCUs, they slow their cars down for you to cross the street.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:31 You know what I'm saying? If you don't have enough money for the cafe that day,
01:10:31 --> 01:10:33 it's not, oh, well, you can't eat.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:35 They're going to figure out to make sure they're going to work with you to make
01:10:35 --> 01:10:39 sure you do eat, you know, for me, HBCUs were more about community.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:45 And I do think that young black children come in, you know, from places where
01:10:45 --> 01:10:47 there are people who don't look like them predominantly.
01:10:48 --> 01:10:53 I do think an HBCU is an experience they should have because it's a joy being
01:10:53 --> 01:10:54 around people who look like you.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:58 I know a lot of people won't admit it, but when I'm around people who look like
01:10:58 --> 01:11:01 me, I kind of, you can kind of breathe a little bit because you kind of,
01:11:02 --> 01:11:05 even though you don't know them, you know them.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:08 You know what I'm saying? And so, but I think that's with any culture.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:12 And so, yeah, I think that HBCUs are a great school. They always have the best
01:11:12 --> 01:11:15 professors. I think I need to put that out there.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:21 HBCUs have the best or some of the best professors in the world, might I argue.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:27 I've learned from some of the most talented professors, and they weren't being
01:11:27 --> 01:11:31 my professor or trying to be nice to me because they needed me to help them with an essay.
01:11:31 --> 01:11:35 They genuinely just wanted me to be better, and they wanted to make sure that
01:11:35 --> 01:11:40 what I give to the world doesn't just benefit me, but other people who look like me.
01:11:41 --> 01:11:46 Yeah, I agree with that sentiment. I, you know, I went to Jackson State.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:53 Okay, go Jackson State. Yeah. And, you know, so it was the same experience.
01:11:53 --> 01:11:56 I mean, I got accepted to, like you say, PWIs.
01:11:57 --> 01:12:00 You know, I had dreamed of going to an Ivy League school. I had gotten in.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:04 But when Jackson State said, you ain't got to pay for anything,
01:12:04 --> 01:12:06 I was like, all right, I'm going.
01:12:06 --> 01:12:09 I'm going to see what's happening. Plus, growing up in Chicago,
01:12:09 --> 01:12:12 there was that connection with Walter Payton, right? So he went there.
01:12:12 --> 01:12:17 So it was like, OK, I'll go down there. And it was the best thing that ever happened in my life.
01:12:18 --> 01:12:24 It was able to, like you said, be around these professors because not only are
01:12:24 --> 01:12:26 they smart, but they're dedicated.
01:12:26 --> 01:12:32 And see, that's what takes them to another level. They really care about you trying to succeed.
01:12:33 --> 01:12:36 Some of them might think that they're your parent and you have to like check
01:12:36 --> 01:12:37 them. It's like, you know, look. Yeah.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:43 But, but my folks are like literally nine, 10 hours away from you.
01:12:43 --> 01:12:49 But other than that, you know, it was, it was a really cool experience and they let you thrive.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:54 And, and, you know, I was a student leader. So it was like the president of
01:12:54 --> 01:13:01 university was like, Eric, you, you, you got some time Tuesday to come up to my office. Yeah. Okay.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:06 You know, I want to run some things by you yes sir
01:13:06 --> 01:13:08 all right you know i mean you wouldn't you wouldn't get
01:13:08 --> 01:13:11 that at princeton you wouldn't get that at harvard or yale not
01:13:11 --> 01:13:15 unless your daddy gave like a million dollars or something you know what i'm
01:13:15 --> 01:13:20 saying so yeah i i agree with that so i just i i wanted to kind of get that
01:13:20 --> 01:13:29 that vibe from you because usually the hbcus do not get the credit that they deserve okay,
01:13:29 --> 01:13:35 HBCUs deserve more than they get. I think more black students should go to HBCUs.
01:13:36 --> 01:13:39 I think that they should choose those at schools because like you said,
01:13:40 --> 01:13:43 they are dedicated and they care about you. They care about your growth.
01:13:43 --> 01:13:48 Like I remember my, I have a lot of friends who graduated from Spelman, a lot of them.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:52 And I remember going to campus and them being like, man, I don't know how I'm
01:13:52 --> 01:13:55 going to pay my tuition. Like my family ain't got it like that.
01:13:55 --> 01:13:58 And then two weeks later they wake up and their whole balance is cleared.
01:13:59 --> 01:14:03 You know, that's what I mean by like they care because going to Georgia State, oh, young tuition.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:07 Oh, there's issues and discrepancies. Oh, OK, well, figure it out or we're going
01:14:07 --> 01:14:09 to drop you from these classes.
01:14:09 --> 01:14:12 You know, so that's just something I also want to highlight,
01:14:12 --> 01:14:16 like HBCUs care about your growth. They want you to grow and they want you to thrive. Yeah.
01:14:17 --> 01:14:20 So let's talk about a couple of clients that you're working with.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:25 The first one I want you to talk about is SheWill. Yes, sir.
01:14:26 --> 01:14:30 OK, so SheWill is actually a nonprofit. started by my mentor.
01:14:31 --> 01:14:34 Her name is Sheena Williams, hence She Will.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:38 But it is a financial literacy nonprofit for young ladies.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:44 It teaches them how to balance a checkbook. It teaches them how to figure out how to spend money.
01:14:44 --> 01:14:46 It helps them figure out career plans for themselves.
01:14:47 --> 01:14:51 It's really a holistic nonprofit to kind of empower young ladies to not only
01:14:51 --> 01:14:54 get out in the world and survive, but to have the skills to thrive.
01:14:55 --> 01:15:00 And so a lot of the work that we do is based in South Carolina because that
01:15:00 --> 01:15:01 is where Michigan is from.
01:15:02 --> 01:15:06 But we also do work in Atlanta as well. And we're getting ready to start doing
01:15:06 --> 01:15:07 some work here in Augusta.
01:15:07 --> 01:15:11 But I want to say I've been, at first I started at SheWill as like a mentee.
01:15:12 --> 01:15:15 I think I met Michina when I was like 15, 16.
01:15:16 --> 01:15:19 And she was like, girl, I like you.
01:15:19 --> 01:15:21 I like you. And I need to be in your life. I want to pour into you.
01:15:21 --> 01:15:25 And so I was able to get that mentorship from her.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:29 When I went to college in Atlanta, where she is currently residing,
01:15:29 --> 01:15:33 she would pick me up and take me to lunch. we would talk about things.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:34 She would ask me what I needed.
01:15:34 --> 01:15:39 And so that mentor aspect kind of stuck with me. And so as I continued to matriculate
01:15:39 --> 01:15:41 through college and just through life, and she was like, Lakeland,
01:15:41 --> 01:15:42 man, these are some of the things
01:15:42 --> 01:15:46 I want to do, but I just don't know who can hold the work, you know?
01:15:46 --> 01:15:50 And she was like, but I would love to ask you because I know that you care about
01:15:50 --> 01:15:53 the work that we're doing. And I know that you actually care about young ladies.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:58 And so while I was in college at Georgia State, she said, this is what I need you to do.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:01 We're going to do a tour across the whole eastern seaboard for the summer and
01:16:01 --> 01:16:06 I need you to figure out how to get that done and.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:10 I was like, girl, I don't know how to do that. You know what I'm saying?
01:16:10 --> 01:16:13 And so, but just through her mentorship and her leadership, we were able to
01:16:13 --> 01:16:17 create something that was sustainable, something that's still going now.
01:16:17 --> 01:16:22 And so just moving through time, I've been able to go from mentee to program
01:16:22 --> 01:16:27 coordinator to now being part of their volunteer coordination team and also
01:16:27 --> 01:16:30 just working with them to figure out what they want their image to be,
01:16:30 --> 01:16:32 how they want to share that with the world.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:36 And so I've just been blessed to be able to work with them. And I think that
01:16:36 --> 01:16:41 every young lady could benefit from SheWill services because it's more than
01:16:41 --> 01:16:42 I said, like getting the job.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:45 We actually mentor the young ladies. We take them on trips.
01:16:45 --> 01:16:48 We talk about self-esteem. We point to them confidence.
01:16:48 --> 01:16:51 If they need to talk to me, they know they can call me, you know,
01:16:51 --> 01:16:52 like they have my number.
01:16:52 --> 01:16:53 And so that's the type of work that
01:16:53 --> 01:16:58 SheWill does. Like we want to be in communities with the young ladies.
01:16:58 --> 01:17:02 We want them to feel comfortable enough to talk to us. And also right now we're
01:17:02 --> 01:17:05 building out what we're calling SheWill Rock.
01:17:05 --> 01:17:08 But they're these summer boxes.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:10 You can either get one for the summer or for the school year.
01:17:10 --> 01:17:14 But it allows the curriculum that we teach, instead of you having to come to
01:17:14 --> 01:17:18 us, we give you that curriculum and it actually walks you through step by step.
01:17:18 --> 01:17:20 So a child can do it on their own during the summer.
01:17:20 --> 01:17:24 Or if you're a teacher and you wanted to bring this into your classroom,
01:17:24 --> 01:17:28 there are resources for you to be able to teach all students, males or females.
01:17:28 --> 01:17:33 So, yeah, that's just some of the work that I've been able to do with SheWill. Okay.
01:17:34 --> 01:17:38 The other one is the ReNforce organization.
01:17:39 --> 01:17:43 Yes, sir. So I am currently the community organizer for ReNforce.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:47 We are just we are an organization that centers justice impacted people.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:51 So that means anybody who has some type of criminal record or running with a
01:17:51 --> 01:17:53 criminal legal system, whether directly or indirectly.
01:17:54 --> 01:17:57 And when I say indirectly, I mean like your family, your friends,
01:17:57 --> 01:18:00 people who are affected by it just because you're affected by it.
01:18:01 --> 01:18:06 And so my job as the community organizer is to find a way to bridge the gap
01:18:06 --> 01:18:10 between the needs of justice impacted people here in Augusta and bridge them
01:18:10 --> 01:18:16 with the needs of just the just the regular citizens at large of Augusta and
01:18:16 --> 01:18:21 helping people see how justice impacted people's fight is their fight, too.
01:18:21 --> 01:18:25 And so I'm blessed to be a part of an all-woman, all-Black woman team.
01:18:25 --> 01:18:28 That's always been one of my dreams to work in an all-Black woman team.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:33 And I think that we are doing a good job with the work that we're doing.
01:18:33 --> 01:18:36 We do workforce development, so we help people get jobs.
01:18:36 --> 01:18:41 We help equip them with skills like we have a medical building and coding cohort
01:18:41 --> 01:18:44 coming up within the next 30 days.
01:18:44 --> 01:18:48 We provide housing for women who are getting out of jail because a lot of people
01:18:48 --> 01:18:52 don't know, but there are not many transitional homes for women.
01:18:52 --> 01:18:56 Most of them are geared and centered towards men. Most women don't get that.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:01 And we also, you know, do community work like we do trainings and educations
01:19:01 --> 01:19:06 working with different companies across the not just across the state, but the U.S.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:10 Trying to get them to understand what it means for people to be just as impacted.
01:19:10 --> 01:19:15 How does their interaction with the system impact the way that they may show up to work?
01:19:15 --> 01:19:19 And what are some ways in which employers can be more sympathetic and more understanding
01:19:19 --> 01:19:22 of what that looks like and how they can work with just as impacted people?
01:19:23 --> 01:19:29 So do you funnel people like somebody, a young lady that's in ReNforce?
01:19:29 --> 01:19:34 Can you slide them over to SheWill to get some of that service too?
01:19:34 --> 01:19:38 Because it would seem like somebody that's transitioning out of the correctional
01:19:38 --> 01:19:44 system would also need some of the skills that SheWill does or SheWill just
01:19:44 --> 01:19:45 primarily for younger people.
01:19:48 --> 01:19:55 So SheWill, the organization, is mainly for young ladies. So anybody's typically we say 18 and under.
01:19:55 --> 01:19:59 And then once you are between like the ages of like 18 to 22,
01:19:59 --> 01:20:00 we try to bring you in as a mentor.
01:20:01 --> 01:20:04 But we do, She Will does teach classes to adults as well.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:07 So, but that's just not the main function of the organization.
01:20:07 --> 01:20:12 And so I do have the opportunity to say, hey, here are some things that are
01:20:12 --> 01:20:15 some skills that I think you could use. And these are some places you can go.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:18 We do connect people to different resources.
01:20:18 --> 01:20:22 Like I said, we give them skills. We through workforce development,
01:20:22 --> 01:20:24 we already do like reason made building and career workshops,
01:20:24 --> 01:20:27 which is some of the stuff that she will does.
01:20:27 --> 01:20:32 And then we have another partner, like a banking partner that comes in and helps people discuss credit.
01:20:32 --> 01:20:35 What does it look like for you to want to get a house? How what does it mean
01:20:35 --> 01:20:40 for you to save right now? And so we do have other organizations that we can
01:20:40 --> 01:20:42 connect with to give people those resources.
01:20:42 --> 01:20:47 But surely if somebody has a daughter that they think could use these resources
01:20:47 --> 01:20:52 or a young lady who is has encountered the criminal system herself,
01:20:52 --> 01:20:55 we send I can send them to she will. OK.
01:20:56 --> 01:21:00 All right. In this political climate, what challenges have you had to overcome?
01:21:01 --> 01:21:04 In this political climate, what challenges have I had to overcome?
01:21:05 --> 01:21:07 To be quite honest.
01:21:09 --> 01:21:13 I can't say that I can think of any. And it's not because that is free of challenges.
01:21:15 --> 01:21:21 It's because truly the same playbook has been ran over and over and over again.
01:21:21 --> 01:21:25 And as somebody who studies history, as somebody who watches every documentary
01:21:25 --> 01:21:30 I can get my hand on, I am keenly aware of what's happening right now.
01:21:30 --> 01:21:32 And it doesn't bother me.
01:21:32 --> 01:21:35 And not in the sense that I am not upset with what's going on.
01:21:35 --> 01:21:39 I'm saying it doesn't bother me because I know how to win.
01:21:39 --> 01:21:41 I've seen how people have won.
01:21:41 --> 01:21:44 During the civil rights movement, they gave us a blueprint and a roadmap.
01:21:45 --> 01:21:48 And so I think the challenges that we're facing are not new.
01:21:49 --> 01:21:53 And they're necessarily not for me to overcome. It's for us to overcome.
01:21:54 --> 01:21:59 And so I'm not really pressed about what's happening because I truly believe
01:21:59 --> 01:22:03 that we are watching the demise of a kingdom, that we are watching it fall in real time.
01:22:03 --> 01:22:10 And so surely the challenge isn't how do we deal with today's time?
01:22:10 --> 01:22:16 I think the challenge or the question should be, what are we planning for?
01:22:16 --> 01:22:20 How are we planning to handle tomorrow, if that makes sense?
01:22:21 --> 01:22:24 Like today, we're just watching the kingdom fall. You can't stop it.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:27 We could have stopped it 20 years ago, maybe 30.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:32 We can't do that right now. But what are we planning to do when the kingdom falls?
01:22:33 --> 01:22:37 You know, and so that's the challenge. Has there been any impact in the work
01:22:37 --> 01:22:40 that you do? Oh, absolutely.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:45 In today's time, working in a nonprofit is not...
01:22:46 --> 01:22:51 The most cool thing to do. Because of some of the targeted legislation surrounding
01:22:51 --> 01:22:55 philanthropists and benefactors to nonprofits, it's been challenging for us
01:22:55 --> 01:22:56 to find, you know, money.
01:22:57 --> 01:23:01 To be quite honest, it's been challenging for us to find grants because people
01:23:01 --> 01:23:04 are afraid if I give you this money, now I'm going to be targeted for,
01:23:04 --> 01:23:06 you know, helping nonprofits.
01:23:07 --> 01:23:13 Because a lot of people are now having to be engaged in politics before.
01:23:13 --> 01:23:16 I mean, engaged in politics now in a way that they were not before
01:23:16 --> 01:23:19 because I mean for a
01:23:19 --> 01:23:23 lot of people not being involved in politics didn't really matter but now
01:23:23 --> 01:23:26 everybody sees that even if you don't do politics politics does
01:23:26 --> 01:23:30 you and so now everybody wants to be everybody had everybody trying to yell
01:23:30 --> 01:23:34 and everybody wants to do something but the challenge is it's like how do you
01:23:34 --> 01:23:39 organize all of that at one time and utilize it and so in my work it's been
01:23:39 --> 01:23:43 challenging trying to get people to see like yes guys let's go in with pitchforks and torches.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:48 Also, when we go in with these pitchforks and torches, where are we going to
01:23:48 --> 01:23:52 go to ensure that we're getting the thing done?
01:23:52 --> 01:23:54 Because it's not enough just to carry a pitchfork and a torch.
01:23:55 --> 01:23:58 What are we going to do? What's the game plan and what's the strategy?
01:23:58 --> 01:24:02 And so sometimes some of my challenge is trying to pull people back and say,
01:24:02 --> 01:24:05 yes, I'm with you, let's do it.
01:24:05 --> 01:24:10 But also let's create a strategy. So when we get in there, we're not all just
01:24:10 --> 01:24:14 running around, you know, for the sake of, you know, running around.
01:24:14 --> 01:24:17 I hope that makes sense. No, that makes a lot of sense.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:21 You know, and I was still thinking about your first answer, you know,
01:24:21 --> 01:24:26 as far as you personally, because, and I said it on a podcast recently,
01:24:27 --> 01:24:32 you know, Jesus was a rabbi for only three years of his life.
01:24:33 --> 01:24:38 For 17 years of his life, he was a carpenter. And I said, there's a reason why
01:24:38 --> 01:24:40 that was, because, you know,
01:24:40 --> 01:24:45 You were talking about the pitchforks. People want to come with pitchforks and
01:24:45 --> 01:24:46 torches and all that stuff.
01:24:46 --> 01:24:50 Yeah, you know, if it's time to tear some stuff up, let's tear some stuff up.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:55 But you also need to have a hammer, a nail, a ladle, a plumb line.
01:24:56 --> 01:24:59 You need to be able to build something, too, because once that kingdom falls,
01:24:59 --> 01:25:02 as you say, a new one has to rise.
01:25:02 --> 01:25:09 And that's one of the lessons that I think we miss in our Christian walk is
01:25:09 --> 01:25:15 that we want to fight injustice, but we don't define what justice looks like, right?
01:25:16 --> 01:25:21 And, you know, what does this new thing, you know, I tease my friends with the
01:25:21 --> 01:25:24 nation all the time and say, y'all just want to leave or y'all just want to
01:25:24 --> 01:25:27 build your own thing and leave us alone, you know.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:35 But at least they got a vision about what perfection or what justice or what,
01:25:35 --> 01:25:38 you know, a system that is fair looks like.
01:25:38 --> 01:25:42 And that's, you know, and you go back with Marcus Garvey and all that stuff.
01:25:42 --> 01:25:46 I mean, everybody, even the people, even the white folks that had good intentions,
01:25:47 --> 01:25:50 like Ben Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, they wanted us to go back to Africa.
01:25:50 --> 01:25:54 They had a vision. They said, we don't trust these white folks that we deal
01:25:54 --> 01:25:58 with all the time. Y'all, once y'all get y'all freedom, y'all get up out of
01:25:58 --> 01:26:02 here and go back to y'all, you know, reestablish your roots, you know.
01:26:03 --> 01:26:08 But at least they had a vision. And a lot of times I hear people,
01:26:08 --> 01:26:13 especially people that are my contemporaries or younger that are in politics.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:17 And, you know, they always talk about, well, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.
01:26:17 --> 01:26:23 But nobody tells the story about what that what that city on the hill looks like.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:30 Ronald Reagan was about the closest ever to kind of when he talked about the morning after. Right.
01:26:30 --> 01:26:33 Now, I don't know where we were going to.
01:26:33 --> 01:26:36 Play in that movie in his morning
01:26:36 --> 01:26:39 after it didn't seem like we he was trying to
01:26:39 --> 01:26:42 tell us ketchup was a vegetable right but it was
01:26:42 --> 01:26:45 like but he he's he was able to
01:26:45 --> 01:26:48 that's why they call him the great communicator because he was able he gave
01:26:48 --> 01:26:54 people this vision it's like oh yeah when morning comes america's gonna look
01:26:54 --> 01:26:59 like this you know what i'm saying so that's i think that's real important for
01:26:59 --> 01:27:03 us when we, when we start talking about,
01:27:03 --> 01:27:07 you know, we got to tear this system down and all that stuff.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:09 What are you going to build in its place?
01:27:10 --> 01:27:14 How is the new system going to look? So, I, you know, so you,
01:27:14 --> 01:27:17 you, you definitely on the right track.
01:27:17 --> 01:27:20 Cause like you said, there's nothing new under the sun.
01:27:20 --> 01:27:22 We've done all that we've been through this before.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:26 And I've been telling people either on a podcast or directly,
01:27:26 --> 01:27:30 if some of these white folks want to know how to get through this Trump stuff,
01:27:31 --> 01:27:33 you might want to talk to some black folks.
01:27:33 --> 01:27:36 Yeah. Yeah. Especially from the South, because we've been through it.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:45 We know what fascism and authoritarianism look like. That's what Jim Crow was, you know? You know.
01:27:45 --> 01:27:48 But not even just that, even you saying that about, you know,
01:27:48 --> 01:27:50 ask black people from the South specifically.
01:27:51 --> 01:27:56 I have this philosophy that everybody has a role. And in this moment,
01:27:57 --> 01:27:59 black people's role is not to be out in the streets fighting.
01:28:00 --> 01:28:03 Shoot me, somebody be mad at what I'm just saying. But black people should not
01:28:03 --> 01:28:05 be out in the streets marching.
01:28:05 --> 01:28:08 We should not be protesting. We shouldn't be doing any of that.
01:28:08 --> 01:28:14 But what we should be doing is helping create strategy and vision for this because
01:28:14 --> 01:28:17 we know what's happening and we know where it's going.
01:28:17 --> 01:28:20 And the reason why I say it shouldn't be Black people in the streets is because
01:28:20 --> 01:28:23 we know what the response is when Black people congregate.
01:28:23 --> 01:28:29 And we know what excuse they're going to use. We know the tactics.
01:28:29 --> 01:28:34 So if you care about Black people, allies, if you care about Black people,
01:28:34 --> 01:28:35 you shouldn't want us on the front line.
01:28:35 --> 01:28:39 Actually, you should be asking us, hey, we've seen y'all struggle like this.
01:28:39 --> 01:28:46 Not only teach us how to struggle for our rights, but also show us how to still
01:28:46 --> 01:28:47 have community at the same time.
01:28:48 --> 01:28:53 Because Black people have, we have done a great job, even if we dislike some
01:28:53 --> 01:28:58 of the aspects of our community, we have done a great job at maintaining community where others have not.
01:28:59 --> 01:29:02 And so that is where Black people fall into this.
01:29:03 --> 01:29:06 And so I just think that we all have a role to play and it does not,
01:29:07 --> 01:29:12 and part of that role is figuring out what the vision is for this next kingdom.
01:29:12 --> 01:29:16 And I think that that is something that Black people should be charged with doing, my person.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:23 So what is the most pressing issue for your generation that you would like elected
01:29:23 --> 01:29:25 leaders to address? Oh, wow.
01:29:26 --> 01:29:31 The most pressing issue? Okay, I'm going to give you two, but I have to give
01:29:31 --> 01:29:34 you two because I want to give you one domestically and one internationally.
01:29:35 --> 01:29:41 And so domestically, I think the biggest issue, of course, is always going to
01:29:41 --> 01:29:45 be addressing capitalism, just to put it frankly.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:51 Because the fact that people are having low wages, the fact that it's hard to
01:29:51 --> 01:29:56 find affordable housing and or you being able to afford your own home instead
01:29:56 --> 01:29:58 of those homes being bought by companies,
01:29:59 --> 01:30:03 all the things that we are seeing are direct descendants of capitalism.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:07 And so I do think that capitalism can be useful and it can be necessary,
01:30:07 --> 01:30:11 but I do think our elected officials should take a look at the ways in which
01:30:11 --> 01:30:17 the implication does not meet what they are saying they want capitalism to be.
01:30:17 --> 01:30:24 And I think just by addressing those umbrella things, it will right-size America
01:30:24 --> 01:30:26 and put us back on the course of being great.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:30 So yeah, fixing those things that are attached to capitalism,
01:30:31 --> 01:30:36 so the way that we judge the economy or credit, just the things like that.
01:30:36 --> 01:30:41 And internationally, of course, I just think that we don't even need to be in
01:30:41 --> 01:30:42 them other countries business,
01:30:43 --> 01:30:49 I don't believe that we should be fighting foreign wars Especially when America
01:30:49 --> 01:30:53 has been a part of creating those issues that have started said wars,
01:30:54 --> 01:30:58 It's like we are very good at picking up rocks and throwing our I meant throwing
01:30:58 --> 01:30:59 rocks and hiding our hands.
01:31:00 --> 01:31:04 And then we get mad that other countries have this thing for us.
01:31:05 --> 01:31:08 I just think that if America stayed out of other people's business and focused
01:31:08 --> 01:31:13 on what's happening here domestically, I think that we would be seeing,
01:31:13 --> 01:31:18 we would just have better things here in America, just in general.
01:31:18 --> 01:31:22 So, yeah, I just think that we need to stop fighting other people's wars and just mind our business.
01:31:23 --> 01:31:26 Yeah. Okay. Well, you know,
01:31:26 --> 01:31:32 and part of this new kingdom we were talking about, that may be the course,
01:31:33 --> 01:31:38 you know, because the Monroe Doctrine and all that stuff was like,
01:31:38 --> 01:31:41 focus in on America first, right?
01:31:41 --> 01:31:47 But what happened in World War II, since we helped, we fought in both theaters
01:31:47 --> 01:31:52 and the good guys won, I guess, for lack of a better term.
01:31:52 --> 01:31:56 We got we got charged with two roles.
01:31:56 --> 01:32:02 The first role deals with what you talk about capitalism is that the U.S. dollar is the standard.
01:32:03 --> 01:32:09 As far as world economics go, the U.S. dollar, that's y'all's responsibility. The U.S.
01:32:09 --> 01:32:13 Dollar is the standard that everybody else's currency is going to be based on.
01:32:14 --> 01:32:19 Then the second obligation was that we signed up to be the policeman of the world.
01:32:19 --> 01:32:25 Right. So when stuff's going down, but when you talk about policing.
01:32:26 --> 01:32:32 Police officers technically are not supposed to go in and start the crime and
01:32:32 --> 01:32:34 then arrest the people doing the crime, right?
01:32:34 --> 01:32:39 They're supposed to come in and say, Oh, you were doing something wrong. We need to stop that.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:43 So when you see persecution in
01:32:43 --> 01:32:47 another nation, you're the United States obligation is supposed to go in.
01:32:47 --> 01:32:51 Hey guys, you shouldn't be treating these people like this.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:54 Let these folks live their lives, whatever. Right.
01:32:55 --> 01:33:01 But, We've perverted that. The whole situation in Iran is our making.
01:33:01 --> 01:33:07 Our making, beginning to end. Yeah. The Iranians had a democracy.
01:33:07 --> 01:33:10 They had somebody that, you know, was popular.
01:33:10 --> 01:33:16 And the minute that those folks cut into that capitalism and said,
01:33:16 --> 01:33:18 hey, look, we want to control our own oil.
01:33:19 --> 01:33:23 Right. And that's not a novel idea because our neighbor to the south,
01:33:23 --> 01:33:28 they do that. You know, they control the oil. The government controls the oil and gas.
01:33:29 --> 01:33:32 That's why when you have all this OPEC crisis and we paying five,
01:33:33 --> 01:33:38 six dollars and stuff for gas, they're not paying that in Mexico because they control it.
01:33:39 --> 01:33:43 And so but I guess since these folks were pumping the oil as well as,
01:33:43 --> 01:33:45 you know, they wanted to control.
01:33:45 --> 01:33:51 So we we got that guy out and they ended up getting a king, the Shah.
01:33:51 --> 01:34:00 And the Shah terrorized those folks until the folks had an uprising and it was a religious uprising.
01:34:00 --> 01:34:03 And that's what we're dealing with now. And so...
01:34:04 --> 01:34:08 You know, it's it's one. So that's where your point.
01:34:08 --> 01:34:13 When I ran for the U.S. Senate, one of my campaign platforms was like,
01:34:13 --> 01:34:18 instead of closing a base in the United States, let's close one overseas first.
01:34:19 --> 01:34:24 If we're having if our dollars are being stretched out, then we we're supposed
01:34:24 --> 01:34:28 to be neighbors with everybody anyway. We're supposed to have all these allies.
01:34:28 --> 01:34:32 It's just like, look, we need to have some training over here in Oman.
01:34:32 --> 01:34:37 Okay, we'll provide you some space, but we don't have to build our own base for that.
01:34:37 --> 01:34:40 You know what I'm saying? We just go over there, do the training.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:49 We train in Morocco. I didn't know that until a couple of black soldiers died last month.
01:34:49 --> 01:34:52 You know, that every year we go to Morocco and train with them.
01:34:53 --> 01:34:56 So why do we need to have a base everywhere on the planet?
01:34:56 --> 01:35:00 Plus, we have the biggest Navy in the world. So it's like, if you've ever seen
01:35:00 --> 01:35:04 an aircraft carrier or been on one, that's a city.
01:35:05 --> 01:35:09 It's like thousands of people. It's got planes. That's a base,
01:35:09 --> 01:35:12 a floating base floating around the oceans.
01:35:13 --> 01:35:17 So we don't need to spend that money instead of closing bases here.
01:35:17 --> 01:35:20 But that could be a whole nother podcast.
01:35:20 --> 01:35:25 We don't need to get in that. But I feel what you're saying,
01:35:25 --> 01:35:32 right, that, you know, we need to, and I've always made the argument we do capitalism wrong.
01:35:32 --> 01:35:37 Because if you look at England, they say, oh, you know, they are socialists.
01:35:37 --> 01:35:41 They got all this, you know, universal health care and all that stuff.
01:35:41 --> 01:35:46 And, you know, and I say it. Yeah. And the doctors are driving Mercedes Benz
01:35:46 --> 01:35:49 just like the doctors here with universal care.
01:35:49 --> 01:35:57 And the most solid currency in the world is the British sterling pound you know
01:35:57 --> 01:36:02 it takes almost two of our dollars to be one of theirs yeah so it's like.
01:36:03 --> 01:36:09 You know, they got issues, but they're doing capitalism better than us because at least their people,
01:36:10 --> 01:36:13 I don't know why they don't go to the dentist, but as far as every other health
01:36:13 --> 01:36:17 condition, they go to the doctor and they ain't got to worry about it.
01:36:17 --> 01:36:19 They ain't got to pay for nothing. You know what I'm saying?
01:36:19 --> 01:36:23 So, I mean, you know, it's just, we got a lot, we still got a lot of work to
01:36:23 --> 01:36:26 do, but that's y'all young folks. I'm going to let y'all handle that.
01:36:28 --> 01:36:31 What advice would you give someone who wants to follow in your footsteps and
01:36:31 --> 01:36:35 become a community organizer slash non-profit consultant?
01:36:36 --> 01:36:41 The one piece of advice I always tell people is do not chase every fire.
01:36:42 --> 01:36:46 The world is burning down. The world is on fire.
01:36:46 --> 01:36:49 You are going to see, if you look to your left, you're going to see a fire.
01:36:49 --> 01:36:52 You look to your right, you're going to see a fire. You look in front or behind,
01:36:52 --> 01:36:53 you're going to see a fire.
01:36:54 --> 01:36:58 And when you first get into this work, you feel like, I can do it all.
01:36:58 --> 01:36:59 I'm going to do it all. I'm going
01:36:59 --> 01:37:02 to change this and I'm going to change that and we're going to do it.
01:37:02 --> 01:37:06 And what people don't realize is you're going to drain yourself so quickly.
01:37:06 --> 01:37:10 So you got to pace yourself and you got to let the main thing be the main thing.
01:37:11 --> 01:37:13 You got to focus on what you can focus on.
01:37:13 --> 01:37:17 The other stuff, the unfortunate fact is that ain't yours to carry.
01:37:18 --> 01:37:22 You let somebody else carry that. You carry what you can, do what you can.
01:37:22 --> 01:37:25 And I liken it to being in the middle of a wildfire.
01:37:25 --> 01:37:29 If you've ever been in a wildfire, everybody knows that inside of a wildfire
01:37:29 --> 01:37:33 are also smaller fires that make it this wildfire.
01:37:33 --> 01:37:37 So if you and a group of people are walking through this wildfire trying to
01:37:37 --> 01:37:40 get out and you see a clear path to get you and your people out.
01:37:41 --> 01:37:47 But you see another fire three miles that way and another fire five miles to your right.
01:37:47 --> 01:37:52 Are you going to stop taking those? Are you going to stop from getting out of
01:37:52 --> 01:37:55 that fire with those people just to go save the others?
01:37:55 --> 01:37:59 It would be it sounds good to say yes, but you're going to kill everybody.
01:37:59 --> 01:38:03 The people you're trying to say and the ones who are following you.
01:38:03 --> 01:38:07 And so that's always my biggest piece of advice. Don't chase every wildfire.
01:38:07 --> 01:38:12 Just chase your fire. Put your fire out. because if you can put out that one small fire,
01:38:12 --> 01:38:16 even if you can't put out the other ones around you, you at least have created
01:38:16 --> 01:38:21 an environment safe enough to where now the fire ain't going to encroach because
01:38:21 --> 01:38:22 you don't put the water out.
01:38:23 --> 01:38:27 You've sprayed the water on your own fire. So now that it's wet and now that
01:38:27 --> 01:38:30 it can't be, the fire can't utilize that.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:33 Maybe now then you can go pick up something else.
01:38:33 --> 01:38:38 But until then, wait, it's okay. You get your people out until it's time for
01:38:38 --> 01:38:40 you, until somebody else picks up the others.
01:38:40 --> 01:38:43 Somebody can always come behind you. Trust and believe that.
01:38:43 --> 01:38:45 So, yeah, that's always my biggest piece of advice.
01:38:46 --> 01:38:50 Yeah, that's good advice to tell people in politics, too, because,
01:38:50 --> 01:38:55 you know, when you get in a position, you see everything.
01:38:56 --> 01:38:59 And you get exposed to a lot more things that are going on. It's like,
01:39:00 --> 01:39:02 oh, my God. You know what I'm saying?
01:39:03 --> 01:39:09 And, you know, you tend to have to be an expert on a little bit of everything
01:39:09 --> 01:39:11 because you got to vote on stuff and all that.
01:39:12 --> 01:39:18 But I feel you because, you know, there was so much stuff I wanted to do.
01:39:18 --> 01:39:23 But the one thing I could do that impacted me, a friend of mine got killed.
01:39:24 --> 01:39:30 A railroad crossing. And a year before, four people in the district that I ended
01:39:30 --> 01:39:33 up representing, four people got killed at another railroad crossing.
01:39:34 --> 01:39:40 One girl survived, but she got knocked from the truck into somebody's yard.
01:39:40 --> 01:39:44 And that was the only way she survived because everybody else,
01:39:44 --> 01:39:47 her dad, her uncle, and her cousins got killed.
01:39:48 --> 01:39:53 And so the one common denominator was the fact that neither one of those crossings had gates.
01:39:53 --> 01:39:59 And so I was trying to figure out, well, why do these not have gates?
01:39:59 --> 01:40:03 But I go everywhere else in the city and they do have gates.
01:40:04 --> 01:40:09 And then when I got in, you know, so I said, that's something I need to work on when I get there.
01:40:09 --> 01:40:12 And once I got there and they started telling me all this stuff,
01:40:12 --> 01:40:14 I was like, well, we got to change some of this stuff.
01:40:15 --> 01:40:20 And so my first three years in the legislature, I was changing stuff.
01:40:20 --> 01:40:23 I was moving money around. I was doing everything I could.
01:40:24 --> 01:40:28 So by the time I was out, you know, after nine years of service,
01:40:28 --> 01:40:31 at least those areas had gates.
01:40:32 --> 01:40:37 And Mississippi was, when I first got elected, they were the number one state
01:40:37 --> 01:40:46 in railroad traffic fatalities. and I took so much satisfaction in watching Raphael Warnock.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:50 Talk about how Georgia was now in the top 10. And I looked at that list and
01:40:50 --> 01:40:52 I said, Mississippi is not even the top 10.
01:40:53 --> 01:40:59 And, you know, I took pride in the fact that a lot of the work that I did is
01:40:59 --> 01:41:01 the reason why Mississippi is not in the top 10 anymore.
01:41:02 --> 01:41:06 And so, like you said, it's like, go put that fire out.
01:41:07 --> 01:41:11 And then once you get that done, then you can start focusing in on everything else.
01:41:11 --> 01:41:15 Now, you know, if it's something black going on, we all going to have something to say.
01:41:15 --> 01:41:18 If they trying to take away, a congressional district if they're
01:41:18 --> 01:41:22 trying to deny us the right to vote if they putting more
01:41:22 --> 01:41:25 people in the jail if they shooting us in the street we all gonna say
01:41:25 --> 01:41:28 something about it but some people
01:41:28 --> 01:41:31 should take the lead and some should just follow
01:41:31 --> 01:41:36 instead of everybody trying to get to the microphone you know what i'm saying
01:41:36 --> 01:41:39 so i mean that's that's basically what you're saying and i totally agree with
01:41:39 --> 01:41:45 that and that that shows even though you're you're younger than me you have
01:41:45 --> 01:41:49 an incredible amount of wisdom that people need to tap into.
01:41:49 --> 01:41:53 And so I'm really, really glad that we had this time to talk.
01:41:53 --> 01:41:59 If people want to talk to you more, if people want to reach out for your consulting
01:41:59 --> 01:42:04 business or some of the organizations that you currently work with, how can they do that?
01:42:05 --> 01:42:08 Yes, sir. So it's very simple. If you want to get in contact with me,
01:42:08 --> 01:42:15 you can find me Facebook, Instagram, and I guess, and now TikTok, now TikTok.
01:42:17 --> 01:42:20 All you have to do is just type in my name, Lakeland Barnes.
01:42:20 --> 01:42:22 I'm going to pop up more than likely.
01:42:22 --> 01:42:25 You're not going to find anybody else with my name. So type that in.
01:42:25 --> 01:42:29 You'll be able to find me. If you want to find more information about SheWill,
01:42:30 --> 01:42:36 just literally type in underscore SheWill on all of your platforms.
01:42:36 --> 01:42:39 So Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the things.
01:42:39 --> 01:42:46 If you're also looking for Reinforce, our name is spelled R-E-N, capital N, Force.
01:42:46 --> 01:42:50 And just type that in. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram,
01:42:50 --> 01:42:52 Twitter, TikTok, all the things.
01:42:52 --> 01:42:56 So, yes, if you are looking for me, just type in Lakeland Barnes,
01:42:56 --> 01:43:03 L-A-K-E-L-A-N-D, Barnes, B-A-R-N-E-S, and you'll find me on all my social media platforms.
01:43:03 --> 01:43:08 Feel free to tap in, ask me any questions. But if you don't have any of those
01:43:08 --> 01:43:11 social medias, you can also reach out to me on LinkedIn as well.
01:43:11 --> 01:43:17 Well, Lakeland, I greatly appreciate you taking the time. I enjoyed conversing with you.
01:43:18 --> 01:43:23 One of my rules is that once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.
01:43:24 --> 01:43:27 So you don't even have to wait for me to ask you to come back on.
01:43:27 --> 01:43:31 If there's something going on that you need a platform for, just let me know
01:43:31 --> 01:43:33 and we'll make that happen.
01:43:33 --> 01:43:37 So I look forward to that moment because I know you're going to get into some stuff.
01:43:39 --> 01:43:42 We're going to have to talk about it and put it out there. So,
01:43:42 --> 01:43:44 again, thank you for coming on the podcast.
01:43:45 --> 01:43:48 Yes, I know. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:50 And like you said, you know I'm going to get into something.
01:43:50 --> 01:43:52 So I will be bringing something back to you.
01:43:54 --> 01:43:54 All right, guys.
01:44:08 --> 01:44:10 All right, and we are back. So
01:44:10 --> 01:44:16 I want to thank David Dunaway and Lakeland Barnes for coming on the show.
01:44:17 --> 01:44:22 David's book, Four-Eyed World, is a great read.
01:44:23 --> 01:44:27 It's really, really unique in how he put it together.
01:44:29 --> 01:44:32 And, you know, the way that he does it.
01:44:33 --> 01:44:39 It all makes sense when you get to the end. So I suggest that you go to that
01:44:39 --> 01:44:45 website, four-eyed world.com and, you know, and, and, and get that book.
01:44:45 --> 01:44:48 It's really, really, really, really entertaining.
01:44:49 --> 01:44:53 And it has so much detail. We, as long as that interview was,
01:44:54 --> 01:44:56 we only really scratched the surface of the book.
01:44:56 --> 01:45:02 And, you know, I really kind of forced it to, And I was really glad that he
01:45:02 --> 01:45:07 was gracious with his time where I could flesh out at least a lot of the highlights.
01:45:07 --> 01:45:11 But it really, really is a good book.
01:45:11 --> 01:45:17 And you can tell that this guy writes for a living. So go out and do that.
01:45:17 --> 01:45:22 And then with Lakeland Barnes, with her organizations that she works with.
01:45:22 --> 01:45:24 Now, she has her own consulting company.
01:45:25 --> 01:45:31 And I want to highlight that. So if you have a nonprofit, whether it's in Augusta, Atlanta,
01:45:32 --> 01:45:37 you know, somewhere in the northeastern part of the state, and you need some
01:45:37 --> 01:45:42 advice or some help, Lakeland Barnes is one of those people that you can reach out to.
01:45:43 --> 01:45:48 The two projects that she's working with right now, She Will and Reinforce,
01:45:48 --> 01:45:51 you know, and they focus in on women.
01:45:51 --> 01:46:00 And which SheWill, as she explained, SheWill is a nonprofit that helps young women, you know.
01:46:01 --> 01:46:07 Girls learn early on about financial literacy and why that's important, right?
01:46:07 --> 01:46:10 And then Reinforce helps formerly
01:46:10 --> 01:46:17 incarcerated women transition back into society, which is much needed.
01:46:17 --> 01:46:22 And that's something that's undervalued. There's groups out there all over the
01:46:22 --> 01:46:25 country, and I know this because—.
01:46:26 --> 01:46:33 One, you know, when I was elected, that was one of my causes in and out of the
01:46:33 --> 01:46:39 legislature, was dealing with people reentering into society after they did that time.
01:46:40 --> 01:46:46 But something that, you know, is, you know, women and really black women,
01:46:47 --> 01:46:49 it's really a struggle for them.
01:46:49 --> 01:46:53 Some people think, oh, well, you know, they'll take a chance on a woman before
01:46:53 --> 01:47:00 a man, maybe, but the elephant in the room is that we're having more black women
01:47:00 --> 01:47:02 incarcerated than ever before,
01:47:02 --> 01:47:06 which means that groups like Reinforced need to exist.
01:47:06 --> 01:47:13 If we can kick the elephant out of the room, then maybe we can focus on other things.
01:47:13 --> 01:47:17 But those two organizations are very, very vital.
01:47:18 --> 01:47:25 And, you know, there's Augusta, if you don't know Atlanta or other Atlanta,
01:47:25 --> 01:47:29 Georgia geography is really close to South Carolina.
01:47:29 --> 01:47:32 It's like if you sneeze, you're in South Carolina pretty much.
01:47:34 --> 01:47:41 So they have a reach in a couple of states. That's what I'm saying. Both organizations.
01:47:41 --> 01:47:47 So, you know, and I just admire young people that are doing work.
01:47:47 --> 01:47:52 And it was really an honor to be in a position to lift her up and,
01:47:52 --> 01:47:59 you know, just have a conversation with her about why she does what she does, what motivated her.
01:47:59 --> 01:48:07 Because it's always fascinating to find out what motivates young people to get
01:48:07 --> 01:48:08 out and do this kind of work.
01:48:08 --> 01:48:12 Because like I said in the interview, I was young once and I was motivated to do the work.
01:48:13 --> 01:48:22 So it's just fascinating to hear young people now and find out what drives them to do what they do.
01:48:22 --> 01:48:26 So I greatly appreciate her and others like her.
01:48:26 --> 01:48:30 She hit me up to a couple of people that I need to reach out to.
01:48:31 --> 01:48:34 And one of them has already responded.
01:48:34 --> 01:48:38 I haven't made a formal invitation for this young lady to be on the show,
01:48:38 --> 01:48:40 but at least I got a connection.
01:48:41 --> 01:48:49 So we'll go from there. But any chance that I get to lift young folks up, I'm going to do that.
01:48:50 --> 01:48:54 And it might steer my podcast in a totally different direction.
01:48:55 --> 01:48:57 Don't hold me to that, but I just...
01:48:58 --> 01:49:02 Yeah, we'll leave it at that. Speaking about young people, I want to deal with
01:49:02 --> 01:49:09 something tragic that happened over the week, and it was mentioned in the news segment.
01:49:10 --> 01:49:12 Again, Grace, thank you so much for doing what you do.
01:49:13 --> 01:49:16 And you've been on this journey with me for a little bit now,
01:49:16 --> 01:49:18 and I really appreciate what you do.
01:49:18 --> 01:49:21 There was this young brother who would have been 16 this year.
01:49:21 --> 01:49:23 His name was Cyrus Carmack Belton.
01:49:24 --> 01:49:29 So Carmack Belton was 14 years old, and he had gone to this convenience store.
01:49:30 --> 01:49:34 Now, from what I understand, this convenience store has had some issues,
01:49:35 --> 01:49:39 meaning the owner has had some issues with young people before,
01:49:40 --> 01:49:47 as far as, you know, suspecting them doing something like shoplifting or whatever
01:49:47 --> 01:49:52 and then, you know, taking some kind of action, either physically assaulting
01:49:52 --> 01:49:54 them or chasing him out of the store or whatever.
01:49:54 --> 01:50:02 In Cyrus's case, when you watch the video, and I don't know if this was Mrs.
01:50:02 --> 01:50:06 Chow, but it was some woman that was standing, and you can't,
01:50:07 --> 01:50:10 of course, with those surveillance videos, you can't really CCTV,
01:50:10 --> 01:50:12 you can't really get audio.
01:50:13 --> 01:50:22 But the scenario that was drawn up in the court was that Cyrus was being accused
01:50:22 --> 01:50:24 of shoplifting some water,
01:50:24 --> 01:50:28 which is really strange considering he is at the counter.
01:50:29 --> 01:50:36 Now, if a young man, and, you know, I was a young man once, if you're a young
01:50:36 --> 01:50:42 man and you're trying to get a five-finger discount, you're not going to go to the counter.
01:50:42 --> 01:50:45 You're going to get what you want and get up out of there.
01:50:46 --> 01:50:53 You're going to try to be as discreet as possible you know just you know slide
01:50:53 --> 01:50:57 in slide out I'm not encouraging anybody to do this I'm not giving you tips
01:50:57 --> 01:51:01 I'm just telling you real talk right that.
01:51:02 --> 01:51:07 People don't want to be seen, especially in this day and age where there's cameras everywhere, right?
01:51:08 --> 01:51:12 But this young man is at the counter and he's being accused of stealing something.
01:51:12 --> 01:51:20 And then, for no apparent reason, at some point, Mr.
01:51:20 --> 01:51:26 Chow and his son chased Cyrus out of the store.
01:51:27 --> 01:51:32 And I guess Cyrus was like, look, I don't want to be bothered with this.
01:51:32 --> 01:51:35 Y'all tripping. And so he takes off, right?
01:51:35 --> 01:51:44 And they pursue him and they get so far and then Mr.
01:51:44 --> 01:51:50 Chow pulls out his gun and shoots Cyrus in the back while he's running away.
01:51:51 --> 01:51:53 So he kills him.
01:51:55 --> 01:51:59 And, you know, from from Mr.
01:51:59 --> 01:52:06 Chow's perspective, his argument was that his son and Cyrus got into it at the store.
01:52:06 --> 01:52:09 And so he was defending his son.
01:52:09 --> 01:52:13 But just y'all understand what Mr.
01:52:13 --> 01:52:17 Chow did, law enforcement officers cannot do.
01:52:18 --> 01:52:25 Right. By Supreme Court ruling, police officers cannot chase somebody and shoot them in the back.
01:52:25 --> 01:52:33 You know, if you do that, you better have a dispatch copy, copy of a dispatch
01:52:33 --> 01:52:35 saying that this person was wanted.
01:52:35 --> 01:52:42 They were armed and dangerous. You felt that they were a threat to society at large.
01:52:44 --> 01:52:52 You shoot and kill somebody running. But it's pretty limited in that capacity, right?
01:52:52 --> 01:52:56 And then a private citizen, depending on what state you're in,
01:52:57 --> 01:53:03 you do have a stand your ground law, but you have to prove that your life was in danger.
01:53:04 --> 01:53:10 And, you know, some call it stand your ground in some states that say fight or flight, right?
01:53:10 --> 01:53:15 Where it says if you can't run away from danger, then you have a right to defend yourself, okay?
01:53:16 --> 01:53:20 None of those scenarios was in place with Cyrus.
01:53:20 --> 01:53:27 He was running away from who he thought was some crazy folks that owned the store.
01:53:29 --> 01:53:33 He was shot and killed. This was in 2023.
01:53:34 --> 01:53:41 So fast forward to last week, the trial for Mr.
01:53:41 --> 01:53:47 Chow was concluded and he was charged with murder.
01:53:48 --> 01:53:52 And, you know, he had his defense team.
01:53:52 --> 01:53:57 They did what they constitutionally obligated to do, which is to provide counsel
01:53:57 --> 01:54:00 for him. The state made their case.
01:54:00 --> 01:54:03 And this is in all in South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina.
01:54:04 --> 01:54:08 So a jury came out with a not guilty verdict.
01:54:09 --> 01:54:15 And of course, the mom and the father were very distraught about it.
01:54:15 --> 01:54:23 And, you know, she expressed her pain afterwards as if not only about the verdict
01:54:23 --> 01:54:28 coming back not guilty, but all the death threats that she has gotten on social media,
01:54:29 --> 01:54:35 all the hateful comments like he deserved it, you know, one less Negro in the
01:54:35 --> 01:54:38 world. You know what I'm talking about.
01:54:39 --> 01:54:41 The maggots were at work.
01:54:43 --> 01:54:49 So needless to say, these three years have been painful. And then for a jury
01:54:49 --> 01:54:52 to come back with a not guilty verdict, it just...
01:54:53 --> 01:55:00 It was devastating, right? Because it wasn't a doubt that Mr. Chow shot him.
01:55:00 --> 01:55:05 Now, one of the things they were saying was that he had a gun.
01:55:05 --> 01:55:10 And so they did find a gun on his person. Talking about Cyrus.
01:55:10 --> 01:55:11 They did find a gun by him.
01:55:11 --> 01:55:15 But the gun didn't come out.
01:55:16 --> 01:55:21 There's no video of him brandishing the gun. and the gun didn't come out till
01:55:21 --> 01:55:27 after he was shot and it fell out of his pants or his pocket, whatever it was, right?
01:55:27 --> 01:55:33 So again, if the guy, if anybody, even if they have a gun, if they're running
01:55:33 --> 01:55:37 away from you, you are not in danger.
01:55:37 --> 01:55:43 If you are chasing them with a weapon, they're the ones in danger, right?
01:55:44 --> 01:55:49 Now, it would have been interesting if the young man, if he did have a gun and
01:55:49 --> 01:55:51 he turned around and shot Mr.
01:55:51 --> 01:55:56 Chow, who was shooting at him, how that would have played in South Carolina.
01:55:56 --> 01:56:04 But anyway, my whole thing with that is this is the state's fault.
01:56:04 --> 01:56:09 This is the prosecutor's fault because you didn't give the jury options.
01:56:10 --> 01:56:17 You went for the home run. You were trying to put this man in jail for life,
01:56:17 --> 01:56:18 for killing this young man.
01:56:19 --> 01:56:24 Now, for many of us in the black community, we're down with that,
01:56:24 --> 01:56:26 but we want them to go to jail.
01:56:26 --> 01:56:35 And so you didn't give the jury the option of a lesser charge because a lot
01:56:35 --> 01:56:38 of times in situations like that,
01:56:38 --> 01:56:42 if there wasn't any intent, and there's this young lady.
01:56:42 --> 01:56:46 Excuse me, there's this young lady on Instagram, like Lauren,
01:56:46 --> 01:56:52 the lawyer, she broke it down really, really good because she was following the trial.
01:56:53 --> 01:56:55 And one of the things she pointed out was that,
01:56:56 --> 01:57:02 that the jury came back before they made the decision and asked for instruction.
01:57:02 --> 01:57:05 And the word that they were stuck on was malice.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:15 So in South Carolina and most states, malice just means you had a plan to kill somebody.
01:57:15 --> 01:57:21 It was in your mind that, you know, whether it's the next black person,
01:57:22 --> 01:57:27 whether it's Cyrus or whether whatever, you had an intent to kill somebody that day.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:36 And of course, the prosecution couldn't prove that because it was almost like
01:57:36 --> 01:57:39 a moment of passion. Right.
01:57:40 --> 01:57:46 Mr. Chow thought somebody was stealing something from the store and doing something
01:57:46 --> 01:57:48 that you don't advise people to do.
01:57:48 --> 01:57:53 He decided to chase the person with his own gun out the store,
01:57:54 --> 01:57:56 track him down and kill him. right?
01:57:57 --> 01:58:04 But he didn't wake up that morning thinking that I'm going to kill me a black person today.
01:58:04 --> 01:58:10 So that narrowed the scope of what the prosecutors could do. They proved he shot him.
01:58:11 --> 01:58:14 There's no doubt that Mr. Chow shot and killed Cyrus.
01:58:15 --> 01:58:18 But murder was the only option you gave the jury.
01:58:19 --> 01:58:25 If you gave the jury options to say, well, if he doesn't meet the test for murder,
01:58:25 --> 01:58:28 you have to find him guilty of manslaughter, right?
01:58:30 --> 01:58:37 And you could have stuck other charges, discharging a weapon within the city limits of Columbia.
01:58:37 --> 01:58:43 You could have charged him with attempted murder, you know, even though Cyrus
01:58:43 --> 01:58:50 died, still could have charged him with something else, involuntary manslaughter, right?
01:58:50 --> 01:58:56 It wasn't your intent to kill him. your intent was to get him off of your property, right?
01:58:56 --> 01:59:00 Scare him away. And you ended up killing him. It's just like if you get into
01:59:00 --> 01:59:04 a fight with somebody, you're not trying to kill that person when you're fighting
01:59:04 --> 01:59:07 them, but if you hit them in the right spot, person drops dead.
01:59:08 --> 01:59:11 Well, that's involuntary manslaughter, right? It wasn't, you didn't have an
01:59:11 --> 01:59:14 intent to do it, but you did do it. You did kill somebody.
01:59:15 --> 01:59:19 So they could have, if the prosecutors had not been greedy and just,
01:59:19 --> 01:59:23 you know, and given the jury options, Mr.
01:59:23 --> 01:59:26 Chow would be in jail today for killing another human being.
01:59:27 --> 01:59:29 But instead, he's out free.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:32 And that has caused an incredible amount of tension.
01:59:34 --> 01:59:38 Literally, every police car in Columbia, South Carolina was at that man's convenience
01:59:38 --> 01:59:42 store. You couldn't get in there to get any gas.
01:59:43 --> 01:59:48 If you didn't know this man was involved in a trial or anything like that.
01:59:48 --> 01:59:54 I mean, literally, there's video footage of police cars. It's like they were staging.
01:59:55 --> 02:00:00 Felt like they were getting ready to do a big raid. They were like all parked in that parking lot.
02:00:02 --> 02:00:06 And, you know, I guess to protect him or whatever from the community being upset,
02:00:06 --> 02:00:12 but they couldn't stay there 24 hours, and there's some video showing that the
02:00:12 --> 02:00:13 store has been vandalized.
02:00:13 --> 02:00:19 The question is, did that happen at an earlier point, and that prompted the
02:00:19 --> 02:00:22 police to come, or did that happen after the police left?
02:00:23 --> 02:00:26 But you can see that the store was vandalized and all that.
02:00:28 --> 02:00:36 So the community is hurting We don't encourage people to be vindictive to this
02:00:36 --> 02:00:43 man The system did what it was supposed to do I blame the prosecutors for being greedy,
02:00:43 --> 02:00:49 Because the whole thing is you want people to atone Justice is not about revenge
02:00:49 --> 02:00:53 It's about atonement Mr.
02:00:53 --> 02:00:57 Chow should not be walking around free after he killed somebody.
02:00:57 --> 02:01:00 He already had three years of freedom after he did that.
02:01:00 --> 02:01:07 That jury should have been given the latitude to put him in jail some kind of way,
02:01:08 --> 02:01:17 because he's had a track record of dealing with young people in a violent type of way.
02:01:18 --> 02:01:26 Nobody died until Cyrus, but he had a track record. And that was inadmissible in court, right?
02:01:27 --> 02:01:29 Because I guess they were all misdemeanors or whatever.
02:01:31 --> 02:01:38 So I just wanted to give you my opinion on that. And I just hope that,
02:01:40 --> 02:01:46 People, you know, everybody, a lot of people have egos and a lot of times prosecutors
02:01:46 --> 02:01:52 that have big egos want to have this landmark case.
02:01:52 --> 02:01:56 And because, you know, most of those folks get elected. Right.
02:01:57 --> 02:02:02 And so they want to be able to say, I'm the one that put Chow in jail.
02:02:02 --> 02:02:05 You know what I'm saying? Show up in the black community and say that. Right.
02:02:06 --> 02:02:13 Wanted to have his moment instead of prosecuting, just doing his job, right?
02:02:14 --> 02:02:22 So that's on them. And now a guy who has killed a black teenager is walking
02:02:22 --> 02:02:25 free in the South, right?
02:02:25 --> 02:02:34 Anyway, so I, you know, the family has retained one of the up and coming black
02:02:34 --> 02:02:36 politicians. I say up incoming.
02:02:36 --> 02:02:41 He was in there when I got there in the legislature in South Carolina.
02:02:41 --> 02:02:43 He's the minority leader.
02:02:43 --> 02:02:48 I think he's married to a former Miss South Carolina, and he's younger than
02:02:48 --> 02:02:53 me, and his brother has really built his stock up.
02:02:53 --> 02:03:00 Outside of Jim Clyburn, this is probably the most powerful black politician in South Carolina now.
02:03:01 --> 02:03:05 And he is an attorney and he is the family attorney.
02:03:05 --> 02:03:12 So they're going to go the civil route and Mr. Chow will probably be like OJ.
02:03:13 --> 02:03:17 Well, a lot of people still don't know if OJ actually did it,
02:03:17 --> 02:03:21 but he was found, OJ was found not guilty, but he ended up paying a civil penalty.
02:03:22 --> 02:03:26 So that's where the comparison comes in. I think that Mr. child is probably
02:03:26 --> 02:03:30 not going to be in business much longer, I think they'll be able to get damages
02:03:30 --> 02:03:33 in the Sybil case for wrongful death.
02:03:34 --> 02:03:37 But we'll keep track of it and see how that goes. It'll probably be another
02:03:37 --> 02:03:40 year before we have a resolution that way.
02:03:41 --> 02:03:44 So I wanted to get that out there.
02:03:44 --> 02:03:48 Now, there's another thing that's happening that didn't really get a whole lot
02:03:48 --> 02:03:55 of news, but I I picked it up on social media, and the source that I got it
02:03:55 --> 02:03:56 from is pretty reliable.
02:03:56 --> 02:04:03 This is people that pay attention to what's going on, even if the news doesn't pick it up.
02:04:05 --> 02:04:10 And we're in the state of Texas. So as you know, we got this big Senate race
02:04:10 --> 02:04:15 coming up with James Tallarico, the state representative there,
02:04:15 --> 02:04:18 against the attorney general of the state, Ken Paxson.
02:04:19 --> 02:04:27 If you're in Texas, nobody in Texas should vote for Ken Paxson ever again in life, ever in life.
02:04:27 --> 02:04:33 His own folks tried to impeach him. And his wife, who happened to be a state
02:04:33 --> 02:04:37 senator at the time, she should have been recused from voting.
02:04:38 --> 02:04:46 Nonetheless, she got enough votes to stop them from keeping him out of office
02:04:46 --> 02:04:51 and not being able to run for anything ever again. But he was impeached.
02:04:51 --> 02:04:55 And it's a majority Republican legislature in Texas.
02:04:56 --> 02:04:59 Yeah, so you got that going on. So you're trying to galvanize.
02:04:59 --> 02:05:06 Now, James Tallarico, he's the one who beat Jasmine Crockett for that U.S.
02:05:06 --> 02:05:07 Senate seat in the Democratic primary.
02:05:08 --> 02:05:14 And the reason basically why Jasmine ran was because they basically drew her out of her district.
02:05:16 --> 02:05:18 She didn't want to run against another Democratic incumbent,
02:05:18 --> 02:05:23 so she ran for the U.S. Senate and probably should have won.
02:05:24 --> 02:05:29 You literally had white women saying, I wanted to vote for Jasmine,
02:05:29 --> 02:05:33 but I don't think she's going to win in November, so I voted for Telerico,
02:05:34 --> 02:05:36 right? Y'all saw the video.
02:05:37 --> 02:05:40 Well, I think it's a little more than that. I do.
02:05:41 --> 02:05:48 Just, you know, the fact that you think that a black person can't win statewide ever, you know,
02:05:49 --> 02:05:57 it's racism without the vitriol, you know.
02:05:58 --> 02:06:06 Previous guest, Bessie Hodges, she can articulate it better than me because
02:06:06 --> 02:06:07 she's a white woman, right?
02:06:08 --> 02:06:17 But and some other guests, Miss Susuki Graham, Robin DiAngelo, Jacqueline Batalora.
02:06:17 --> 02:06:21 I mean, there's some white women on here basically calling white folks out,
02:06:21 --> 02:06:24 you know, on that kind of mentality.
02:06:25 --> 02:06:29 Nonetheless, so the Democratic Party is going to have their big dinner.
02:06:29 --> 02:06:35 Each state party, you know, has like an annual dinner fundraiser.
02:06:35 --> 02:06:39 And it's kind of, it turns into a rally, get all these folks.
02:06:39 --> 02:06:45 So one of the things that this social media person pointed out was that,
02:06:46 --> 02:06:51 they've got all these speakers, they're bringing in Bernie Sanders and Pritzker
02:06:51 --> 02:06:57 and all these other folks, they're bringing all these folks in to speak at their fundraiser.
02:06:57 --> 02:07:01 They call it the biggest Democratic Party fundraiser in the nation, right?
02:07:02 --> 02:07:04 Nobody black is on the program.
02:07:05 --> 02:07:12 Nobody black is on the program. You would figure at least Christian Menifee
02:07:12 --> 02:07:17 should be on there, considering that he survived, calling Allred, who's run for the U.S.
02:07:17 --> 02:07:25 Senate, and just got reelected basically back to Congress, and he had to defeat
02:07:25 --> 02:07:30 a white woman who was an incumbent to do that because of the redistricting.
02:07:32 --> 02:07:37 And so it's not a net gain there. Menifee had to beat Al Green because of the
02:07:37 --> 02:07:39 way the district was drawn.
02:07:39 --> 02:07:46 Now, Al could have run in a district that had the same number but not the same constituents.
02:07:47 --> 02:07:51 He could have ran for his same district by number.
02:07:51 --> 02:07:58 But, you know, he wanted to represent Houston because that's where he is.
02:07:59 --> 02:08:02 And so the Lions, he felt he couldn't win.
02:08:02 --> 02:08:10 So he ran in 18, and 18 has been historically the Houston district, right?
02:08:10 --> 02:08:12 They used to have two, now they got one.
02:08:13 --> 02:08:19 We had Al Green, and Al Green has outlived Sheila Jackson Lee,
02:08:19 --> 02:08:24 and then Sylvester Turner came after her, and both of them have died within
02:08:24 --> 02:08:27 a span of two years, right?
02:08:27 --> 02:08:32 So when they finally called a special election, because those folks didn't have
02:08:32 --> 02:08:39 representation for basically a year, Christy Menefee won the special election.
02:08:39 --> 02:08:42 He beat a young lady who had been on the city council, I believe,
02:08:42 --> 02:08:45 Amanda Edwards, and he got in there.
02:08:45 --> 02:08:50 And so since Al wanted to stay in Congress and represent Houston,
02:08:50 --> 02:08:52 he had to run against Mr. Menefee.
02:08:53 --> 02:08:57 It's meant if he beat him in a primary, which is basically a general election in that district.
02:08:58 --> 02:09:04 So, you know, he's going to be back the next term.
02:09:04 --> 02:09:12 Now, I assume somewhere on the program he'll introduce somebody, maybe.
02:09:12 --> 02:09:17 I just can't imagine you got a sitting congressman.
02:09:18 --> 02:09:22 You got two black sitting congressmen, about to be sitting congressmen.
02:09:23 --> 02:09:27 November election, and neither one of them are headlining on the program.
02:09:28 --> 02:09:35 You know, maybe, I don't know, they might have one do the prayer or something, I don't know.
02:09:35 --> 02:09:39 But they're not keynoting. They've got all these folks from out of Texas,
02:09:40 --> 02:09:43 white folks, keynoting, but not the people in.
02:09:43 --> 02:09:49 And of course, the people come to see Jasmine Crockett, and I don't know what
02:09:49 --> 02:09:53 role she's going to play. Maybe once they call these folks out,
02:09:53 --> 02:09:55 she might be the emcee. I don't know.
02:09:56 --> 02:10:00 All I know is that she's not on program. She's not a keynote.
02:10:00 --> 02:10:03 All Red's not a keynote. Menifee's not a keynote.
02:10:04 --> 02:10:11 And Tau Rico is, you know. I mean, he's the nominee, so naturally he would be on it. Yeah.
02:10:12 --> 02:10:20 So I even see, and I don't want to say her name, but the young lady that's running against Greg Abbott.
02:10:21 --> 02:10:24 For governor in in hosa i think her name is.
02:10:25 --> 02:10:29 And then they didn't even, now, maybe they're going to have something in the
02:10:29 --> 02:10:35 program to honor Representative Collier and I think Senator Jones,
02:10:35 --> 02:10:39 it might be Representative Jones, who led the walkout,
02:10:39 --> 02:10:43 right, to slow down the redistricting effort.
02:10:43 --> 02:10:47 Remember, they all scattered. They were in Illinois and everywhere else.
02:10:47 --> 02:10:49 So they couldn't have a quorum.
02:10:50 --> 02:10:57 And Ms. Collier, when they came back, they passed some crazy rules saying that
02:10:57 --> 02:11:04 if you're here, you can't leave the chamber or you can't leave the building.
02:11:05 --> 02:11:09 It was something really stupid just trying to make sure that the Democrats didn't take off again.
02:11:10 --> 02:11:14 And they literally locked Ms. Collier in the Capitol building.
02:11:14 --> 02:11:17 And it's a huge building. I mean, if you've ever been to Austin,
02:11:17 --> 02:11:21 Texas, it's the largest state capitol building in the nation.
02:11:21 --> 02:11:28 And they locked this woman in there for a couple of days, right? She couldn't go.
02:11:29 --> 02:11:34 And, you know, so you didn't have a spot for her on the program.
02:11:35 --> 02:11:39 Now, they may give her an award for courage or whatever.
02:11:39 --> 02:11:46 I'm sure they're going to honor them in some way, right? because these ladies
02:11:46 --> 02:11:51 were the leaders. They were the voices for the walkout.
02:11:53 --> 02:11:57 But they're not keynoting. So, you know, I get it.
02:11:58 --> 02:12:05 Texas is a big state. You might be able to get a Senate seat this year based
02:12:05 --> 02:12:13 on the fact that the most indefensible candidate is the Republican nominee for the U.S. Senate.
02:12:13 --> 02:12:19 Yeah. I just think that's crazy. You know, that you, you're not,
02:12:19 --> 02:12:24 you didn't even, and if they are going to speak, you didn't put them on the program.
02:12:24 --> 02:12:28 It's like the people in the respective states want to see their state people.
02:12:29 --> 02:12:34 It's nice that these national folks that have national ambitions show up.
02:12:34 --> 02:12:40 But your draw is going to be your local elected officials at your state party function.
02:12:41 --> 02:12:46 You know, it was kind of a big deal in Iowa to show up at their dinner.
02:12:47 --> 02:12:53 But since Iowa ain't the first state no more on the Democratic side, not so much.
02:12:54 --> 02:12:58 But, you know, the parade will go through there when they have their dinner, it'll go through.
02:13:00 --> 02:13:03 Nonetheless, I think that's that's sending a terrible message.
02:13:03 --> 02:13:07 It's very, very tone deaf how they put this program together,
02:13:07 --> 02:13:13 because if Tallarico is going to win, black folks have to support them.
02:13:15 --> 02:13:20 I'm not on the ground, so I don't know what kind of outreach he's really doing.
02:13:20 --> 02:13:26 I don't know if he's just banking on the goodwill of black people to vote Democratic.
02:13:28 --> 02:13:35 But if the way that they've structured the fundraiser for the state Democratic
02:13:35 --> 02:13:37 Party is any indication,
02:13:37 --> 02:13:40 that goes back to the argument that people have and say that,
02:13:41 --> 02:13:43 well, you're just taking the black vote for granted. Right.
02:13:45 --> 02:13:50 So, hopefully they'll fix that. And before the dinner,
02:13:51 --> 02:13:57 it'll be a pleasant surprise to see all those faces and all those names I mentioned
02:13:57 --> 02:14:01 actually getting a prominence program,
02:14:01 --> 02:14:04 spot on the program. But we'll see.
02:14:05 --> 02:14:11 So, before I go, I think I started talking about Graham Plattner last week, but...
02:14:14 --> 02:14:17 When this episode drops, it'll be the day before the primary in Maine.
02:14:18 --> 02:14:23 So, you know, people in Maine have a unique situation.
02:14:23 --> 02:14:28 Their governor, Janet Mills, was recruited to run for the U.S.
02:14:28 --> 02:14:34 Senate after Plattner had already been campaigning by Chuck Schumer and the crew.
02:14:35 --> 02:14:40 And Janet wasn't getting any money, wasn't getting any support, so she dropped out.
02:14:42 --> 02:14:46 And, you know, Graham is a little younger than me, not much,
02:14:46 --> 02:14:47 but he's a little younger than me.
02:14:47 --> 02:14:51 He's definitely younger than, because I'm younger than Janet Mills.
02:14:51 --> 02:14:57 Janet Mills is about 75 years old and she's, I think, was a two-term governor
02:14:57 --> 02:15:01 and then, you know, she was attorney general before that.
02:15:01 --> 02:15:05 She's had a long, solid political career in Maine.
02:15:05 --> 02:15:12 So because of the stuff that's happening now with Plotner, there's been some concerns.
02:15:12 --> 02:15:20 I've had some people in, you know, Democratic circles, even some guests that
02:15:20 --> 02:15:24 have come on and, you know, they weren't really big fans of his,
02:15:24 --> 02:15:25 but they don't live in Maine.
02:15:26 --> 02:15:30 For some reason, the people like this oyster lobster farmer,
02:15:31 --> 02:15:33 right? They love this guy.
02:15:34 --> 02:15:39 So much so that Janet Mills suspended her campaign, but by the time she suspended
02:15:39 --> 02:15:42 her campaign, they couldn't take her name off the ballot.
02:15:42 --> 02:15:52 So the folks in Maine will vote on Tuesday, June 9th, and they can.
02:15:55 --> 02:16:02 Do a plausible protest vote if they think that Plattner has not exhibited the
02:16:02 --> 02:16:06 qualities to really be a Democratic nominee and really beat the snot out of
02:16:06 --> 02:16:11 Susan Collins like they thought he would when they when he first started running.
02:16:12 --> 02:16:16 And to his credit and to his wife's credit, they've been out there trying to
02:16:16 --> 02:16:21 say, look, you know, the whole sexting thing.
02:16:21 --> 02:16:25 We done dealt with that in our house. He ain't doing that no more.
02:16:25 --> 02:16:27 He ain't ever going to do that again.
02:16:28 --> 02:16:32 You know, it was right around the time I think he had just got married,
02:16:32 --> 02:16:35 and then he just started running for the U.S. Senate about the same time.
02:16:36 --> 02:16:38 So they say they've dealt with that.
02:16:38 --> 02:16:43 And she was like, don't worry about what's going on in our house.
02:16:43 --> 02:16:45 Worry what's going on in your house.
02:16:45 --> 02:16:48 Vote for the person that's going to make sure that you can take care of your
02:16:48 --> 02:16:51 bills, that you don't have to worry about your health care, yada, yada.
02:16:51 --> 02:16:53 Vote for my husband, right?
02:16:55 --> 02:17:01 And, you know, so we got people that for some reason they they were working
02:17:01 --> 02:17:04 with him, but they have also worked in Republican campaigns.
02:17:04 --> 02:17:08 And so they're trying to trash him.
02:17:08 --> 02:17:12 And The New York Times tracked down, I think, every woman he dated.
02:17:13 --> 02:17:17 And there were a couple that said, well, you know, he he might grab me by my
02:17:17 --> 02:17:20 shoulders or grab me by my wrist or whatever.
02:17:20 --> 02:17:23 But then they ran into a lot of women and said, oh, he was a gentleman.
02:17:23 --> 02:17:26 And he's really nice guy. He's a he's a sweetheart. Right.
02:17:27 --> 02:17:32 So I appreciate the fact that they were thorough and didn't just go for the
02:17:32 --> 02:17:37 tabloid headline and really gave a fair perspective that there were some people,
02:17:37 --> 02:17:44 women in his life that don't think that he's an abuser or misogynistic or all that kind of stuff.
02:17:45 --> 02:17:51 But the people in Maine have a choice and they can actually vote a protest vote
02:17:51 --> 02:17:54 that would count because if for some reason,
02:17:55 --> 02:18:01 and I'm going to be real honest with y'all, John Fetterman is playing into this thing, too.
02:18:01 --> 02:18:05 He hasn't endorsed Plattner. He hasn't endorsed Mills.
02:18:06 --> 02:18:13 But people took a chance on a rugged type different politician on the Democratic
02:18:13 --> 02:18:16 side in Pennsylvania in voting for Fetterman.
02:18:16 --> 02:18:20 You know, the guy that doesn't wear suits and, you know, seemed to be community
02:18:20 --> 02:18:22 minded, was saying all the right things.
02:18:22 --> 02:18:26 Bernie Sanders swooped down and endorsed him. And so, you know,
02:18:26 --> 02:18:28 he had he had all that going for him.
02:18:29 --> 02:18:36 Then he had the stroke. And then he started voting like he forgot he was a Democrat. Right.
02:18:37 --> 02:18:41 He wasn't the same guy that he was in Braddock. Of course, there's some people
02:18:41 --> 02:18:44 in Braddock that's like, oh, no, that's that's him.
02:18:44 --> 02:18:49 But everybody else in America was fooled. And they thought that this guy was
02:18:49 --> 02:18:53 perfect, especially in this Trump era. Right.
02:18:54 --> 02:18:59 And so there's a lot of people that are thinking, well, if Plattner's kind of
02:18:59 --> 02:19:03 doing this and doing that, he didn't know about the Nazi tattoo,
02:19:04 --> 02:19:06 whatever, maybe he's going to be another fed up.
02:19:07 --> 02:19:09 And so there's some people that's going to be hesitant about that.
02:19:09 --> 02:19:14 But to his credit, to the campaign's credit, there are a lot of women that are
02:19:14 --> 02:19:16 saying, yeah, we vote for this guy.
02:19:17 --> 02:19:23 Is he perfect? No. But Susan Collins is terrible. and she'd been there long enough.
02:19:24 --> 02:19:27 We know what she ain't going to do. We know what she's capable of doing.
02:19:29 --> 02:19:31 She can come on back home.
02:19:32 --> 02:19:39 But the question's going to be do we vote for take the chance on this guy that
02:19:39 --> 02:19:41 he's going to rise to the occasion,
02:19:43 --> 02:19:47 or do we just say, you know what, Janet's still on the ballot.
02:19:48 --> 02:19:49 Let's vote for the governor and,
02:19:51 --> 02:19:55 You know, she may only serve one term, but at least Susan Collins to be out.
02:19:57 --> 02:20:01 That's up to the folks in Maine to make that decision. Y'all know what y'all need.
02:20:02 --> 02:20:09 Y'all know who is the best representative for you all to fight for your interest in Maine.
02:20:12 --> 02:20:17 It's, you know, the majority of the population doesn't think Susan Collins is that person.
02:20:18 --> 02:20:21 The debate is, is Graham Plattner that guy?
02:20:22 --> 02:20:26 So y'all had that choice. It'd be interesting to see what y'all do.
02:20:29 --> 02:20:35 So, you know, following next week's episode, you'll, you know, I'll be able to report.
02:20:36 --> 02:20:39 And Grace will read off how that worked out.
02:20:41 --> 02:20:46 But yeah, you know, we're in a really, really terrible, terrible time.
02:20:47 --> 02:20:49 And I've said that a lot.
02:20:50 --> 02:20:56 It's terrible in the sense that it's unconventional. It's not terrible to the
02:20:56 --> 02:20:58 point where we're hoping against hope.
02:20:59 --> 02:21:05 So the bottom line is if you want justice in South Carolina,
02:21:05 --> 02:21:15 if you want respect in Texas, if you want accountability and transparency in
02:21:15 --> 02:21:17 Maine, y'all have to vote.
02:21:17 --> 02:21:21 Point blank, period. You've got to vote.
02:21:22 --> 02:21:27 And whatever you decide to do, whoever you get behind, show up for them.
02:21:29 --> 02:21:33 I'm a Democrat, so I wish that all of y'all would vote for every Democratic
02:21:33 --> 02:21:35 candidate and keep it moving.
02:21:36 --> 02:21:38 The primaries are supposed to separate the wheat from the chaff.
02:21:39 --> 02:21:44 Once we do that, support those Democratic nominees. That's my wish.
02:21:45 --> 02:21:50 You know, in reality, that's not going to happen 100% of the time, but it is what it is.
02:21:51 --> 02:21:52 But I want y'all to vote.
02:21:53 --> 02:21:57 Again, it's one thing to show up at every No Kings rally. It's one thing to
02:21:57 --> 02:22:01 get on the internet and voice your concerns.
02:22:02 --> 02:22:05 It's one thing for y'all to all start podcasts.
02:22:06 --> 02:22:10 It's awesome. Or do TikTok videos. It's great.
02:22:10 --> 02:22:17 But the bottom line is, if you don't want the Republicans to take it away from us, you got to vote.
02:22:18 --> 02:22:22 There's an old adage in sports, and I've probably said it before on the show,
02:22:23 --> 02:22:26 don't make it close where the referees can take the game from you.
02:22:27 --> 02:22:31 Beat the brakes off of these folks. Let's send a message.
02:22:32 --> 02:22:38 John Ossoff should beat the brakes off whoever is the Republican nominee for Senate.
02:22:39 --> 02:22:44 Jared Brown should beat the brakes off of the senator from Ohio,
02:22:44 --> 02:22:47 right? We need Jared Brown back in the Senate.
02:22:47 --> 02:22:51 You know, we just, we need to win all of them.
02:22:51 --> 02:22:54 New Mexico, all of them.
02:22:55 --> 02:23:01 Montana, all of them. Iowa, all of them. We need to win all of them.
02:23:01 --> 02:23:04 We need to have a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate.
02:23:05 --> 02:23:11 That's our only hope to shut down what's going on at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
02:23:12 --> 02:23:16 And once you stabilize and shut him down for two more years,
02:23:16 --> 02:23:22 then we can keep a Democratic Congress and get a Democratic president in there.
02:23:23 --> 02:23:27 Because the Republicans are giving us no options. None.
02:23:27 --> 02:23:32 They're not showing any leadership. All they're trying to do is make an 80-year-old
02:23:32 --> 02:23:37 man happy in his last days.
02:23:37 --> 02:23:39 We don't have time for that.
02:23:40 --> 02:23:45 We need real American leaders to provide real American leadership.
02:23:46 --> 02:23:52 And like I said to Ms. Barnes, and I'm going to leave on this note, it's time to rebuild.
02:23:54 --> 02:24:02 This 250th anniversary of our independence is the milestone for the new America.
02:24:04 --> 02:24:10 Donald Trump has done his best to dismantle everything, so that gives us a chance
02:24:10 --> 02:24:18 for us to get into leadership over the next two, three years and rebuild it the way that it should,
02:24:18 --> 02:24:24 to live up to what Langston Hughes promised what America will be.
02:24:25 --> 02:24:29 All right, that's all I got. A lot longer than what I wanted to talk about,
02:24:29 --> 02:24:31 but I had to get those things off my chest.
02:24:31 --> 02:24:35 So thank y'all for listening. Until next time.