In this episode, Rev. John Lee Hooker, Jr., author of From the Shadow of the Blues, talks about his legacy and his inspirational redemption. Then, MiDian Shofner, CEO of The Epitome of Black Excellence & Partnership, updates us on the continuing struggle for justice in Aurora, Colorado, a microcosm of our national struggle.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:24 Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:41 Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.
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00:00:51 --> 00:00:56 Tell someone else about the podcast encourage others to listen to the podcast
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00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 i hope you enjoy this episode as well,
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:56 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:08 And so we're now season 11, but the podcast is in full effect,
00:02:08 --> 00:02:10 and so is Black History Month.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:15 Yes, despite the efforts of our current president and others of his ilk,
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 it is still Black History month.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:23 And for those of us who always say that it's Black History 365,
00:02:24 --> 00:02:27 you know, we are living that.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 We are living that.
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 The resistance is still there.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:34 It may come in waves.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:39 It may come in pulses, but it's still there.
00:02:40 --> 00:02:47 And the education will always continue. You may try to ban it from you're from
00:02:47 --> 00:02:52 the schools, you may try to ban it from the workplace, but we still have homes
00:02:52 --> 00:02:54 and we still have community.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:59 And so black history is always going to be a part of what we do.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:07 So, and in that vein, I just want to send a shout out to the National Newspapers,
00:03:08 --> 00:03:13 Newspaper Publishers Association, National Association of Black Journalists
00:03:13 --> 00:03:14 and the Black Podcasters Association.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:19 I have been affiliated with all three of those organizations,
00:03:20 --> 00:03:30 and it is our mission to make sure that Black voices are heard and Black stories are told, right?
00:03:31 --> 00:03:37 And I think it's very, very important to highlight it during this month, But also,
00:03:37 --> 00:03:43 as we go through the year, that in the times that we are in,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:49 in the times we are going to be in, in the near future, those organizations,
00:03:49 --> 00:03:53 excuse me, need our respect and support.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:59 So support black newspapers, support black journalists, support black podcasters.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:01 And I'll leave it at that.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:04 Speaking about supporting black journalists.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 Oh, by the way, we've got we've got a great show.
00:04:08 --> 00:04:17 We've got two exceptional people, one who is a legacy and one who is creating a legacy in activism.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:23 So I hope that you'll enjoy those guests. But speaking of telling stories and
00:04:23 --> 00:04:28 supporting black journalists, it is time for a moment of news with Grace G.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:35 Music.
00:04:35 --> 00:04:38 Thanks, Erik. President Trump proposed that the U.S.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:43 Take control of the Gaza Strip and develop it economically after resettling
00:04:43 --> 00:04:44 Palestinians elsewhere.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:49 A medevac plane crashed in Philadelphia, killing all six people on board,
00:04:49 --> 00:04:51 all of whom were Mexican nationals.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 President Trump suspended tariffs on Mexico and Canada for 30 days,
00:04:57 --> 00:05:02 following agreements on border and crime enforcement while tariffs on China went into effect.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:07 Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency commenced a plan to dismantle the U.S.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 Agency for International Development and merge it with the State Department
00:05:11 --> 00:05:16 Musk and his DOGE team have also taken control of key U.S.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:20 Government offices, affecting systems that manage federal personnel,
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 contracts, and the Treasury's payment network Tulsa's new mayor gave support
00:05:25 --> 00:05:30 to a plan to pay reparations to survivors and descendants of the 1921 race massacre
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 A judge extended a pause on the Trump administration's funding freeze,
00:05:35 --> 00:05:39 citing potential overreach of Congress's spending authority and the impact on
00:05:39 --> 00:05:41 federally funded organizations.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:48 The Trump administration plans to end deportation relief for over 300 Venezuelans in the U.S.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 With temporary protected status.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:55 New York has enacted a law to protect state doctors from prosecution by other
00:05:55 --> 00:05:59 states for prescribing and mailing abortion pills. A U.S.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:03 Judge blocked Trump's executive order requiring transgender women to be housed
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 in men's prisons and ending their access to gender-affirming care.
00:06:08 --> 00:06:11 President Trump signed an executive order to create a U.S.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:14 Sovereign wealth fund, potentially to purchase TikTok.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:19 The Eaton and Palisades fires, which caused significant destruction in Los Angeles
00:06:19 --> 00:06:21 County, have been fully contained.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:26 And Ken Martin was elected as the new chair of the Democratic National Committee.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:29 I am Grace G. And this has been...
00:06:29 --> 00:06:37 Music.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:06:42 --> 00:06:47 And now it is time for my first guest, the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:53 Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr. is the son of blues legend John Lee Hooker and
00:06:53 --> 00:06:57 as a teenager toured with his father as the featured attraction.
00:06:57 --> 00:07:01 After a battle with drug addiction and several stints in prison,
00:07:01 --> 00:07:04 he went on to have a successful music career of his own.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:09 His first album, Blues with a Vengeance, was released in 2004,
00:07:09 --> 00:07:14 nominated for a Grammy Award, and won the W.C. Handy Award for Debut Artist.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:21 His third album, All Odds Against Me, released in 2008, also received a Grammy nomination.
00:07:21 --> 00:07:26 He is now an ordained minister and divides his time between the United States
00:07:26 --> 00:07:34 and Germany. His memoir, From the Shadow of the Blues, is out from Roman and Littlefield.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:40 And that's the basis of the interview today that we're going to be talking about
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 that book, From the Shadow of the Blues.
00:07:42 --> 00:07:47 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a
00:07:47 --> 00:07:53 guest on this podcast, the Reverend John Lee Hooker, Jr..
00:07:53 --> 00:08:03 Music.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:09 All right. The Reverend John Lee Hooker, Jr. How are you doing,
00:08:09 --> 00:08:10 my friend? You doing good?
00:08:11 --> 00:08:17 Doing very well. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. And it's a blessing to be on your show, Erik.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:21 Thank you so much for your invite. Well, it's a blessing to have you,
00:08:21 --> 00:08:30 man, because I grew up in Chicago and then I spent the next 34 years of my life in Mississippi.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:34 So when I hear the name John Lee hooker that
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 means something you know it's like that's
00:08:37 --> 00:08:40 just part of the culture in the
00:08:40 --> 00:08:42 black community growing up and it doesn't even matter if you're a
00:08:42 --> 00:08:48 blues fan or not you you know what that name john lee hooker means so to have
00:08:48 --> 00:08:55 the son the the the the man that carries the legacy and the name on the show
00:08:55 --> 00:09:00 is really really something but you you have a very very unique story too.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:07 And I just wanted to get you on the show because you've written this book.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:12 And let me make sure I got the name of the book right. From the Shadow of the
00:09:12 --> 00:09:18 Blues, which is an interesting title because of the journey that you've been on.
00:09:18 --> 00:09:26 So what I like to do with the guests is that to break the ice is to throw a quote at the guest.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:35 So this is your quote. I'm the only one I know of who actually entered a prison to do a gig,
00:09:35 --> 00:09:42 came back as a convict, and ultimately returned as a prison chaplain.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:45 Explain that quote to the audience.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:50 It is also unusual to me.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:56 And only God knew about it and how it would happen.
00:09:56 --> 00:10:07 In 1971, I got off parole from Jackson, Michigan prison to Cassidy Lake.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:12 Michigan, I got off parole after I got out of prison in Michigan.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:17 And family, dad, and everybody said, get him out of there because,
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 you know, Detroit, they're killing
00:10:19 --> 00:10:23 in Chicago and New York. get him out of Detroit and come on over here.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:31 So I arrived in California and it's 72.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 My dad says, it's your big opportunity, boy.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:41 We're going into solid dad prison. I know you made a little joke.
00:10:41 --> 00:10:44 I know you're not scared to go in prison. You already been there before.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 So, oh, there you crazy so
00:10:49 --> 00:10:52 we go into through the sally port gate
00:10:52 --> 00:10:55 a abc ed michelle from in
00:10:55 --> 00:10:58 beverly hills abc no longer that no
00:10:58 --> 00:11:01 abc records called my dad we're
00:11:01 --> 00:11:07 going into we'd like to record they want to record you live john in Soledad
00:11:07 --> 00:11:14 prison well i'm bringing my boy with me you're no problem and we drove through
00:11:14 --> 00:11:20 the Sally Port gate where they actually bring in the prisoners.
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 We didn't go through the visiting room part. We went through the Sally Port gate.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 R&R where they return and release.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:33 And I'll never forget it. It was a gun tower.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:40 That we passed through at Finchison and clearing radio signals and codes.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:45 And we went in and it was just dusty and really hot.
00:11:45 --> 00:11:50 You know how you can, it gets so hot that you can see the waves in the air. Yeah.
00:11:50 --> 00:11:53 And there was all the prisoners and they couldn't wait.
00:11:54 --> 00:12:00 We, they couldn't wait because they were behind the fence as we were doing sound check.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:04 So when we did the sound check and they gave the thumbs up,
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 they released them all to the yard and everybody got their positions on the
00:12:09 --> 00:12:14 yard, you know, and this, this, this, this crew over here and that crew over
00:12:14 --> 00:12:18 there and this race there and that race there, everything. You notice that.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:24 And the music began and I started it off and they gave me a well,
00:12:25 --> 00:12:26 we were standing room only.
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 I introduced my dad and they went crazy.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:35 There was a guard on my left and come to find out his name was Ernie,
00:12:35 --> 00:12:44 prison guard, and he's protecting the free guys from these what they call savages, these killers.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:52 And that was Ernie. So 14 years later, that gig turned into my residence.
00:12:52 --> 00:13:03 I was arrested for grand theft person playing a con game like I was from South Africa.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:08 Anyway, I knew I would get caught because he was a priest. And.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:14 14 years later, that same California, but now I'm chained up.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:17 And when I found out I was going to Soledad prison, I said, oh,
00:13:17 --> 00:13:23 my God, because I knew somebody's going to say, weren't you?
00:13:24 --> 00:13:32 And sure enough, when they assigned me to my supervisor and told me what to
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 report to, I walked in and the man said, show me your prison ID.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 I gave him my ID, gave him the paperwork, and he looked at my ID,
00:13:41 --> 00:13:47 and he said, I remember you with that country growl.
00:13:47 --> 00:13:51 And I said, I'm sorry, sir, but I never did time here.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:55 I remember you, sir. I'm just here to report to work.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 I've never been here before, sir. and then he
00:13:58 --> 00:14:01 went in his drawer and pulled out an
00:14:01 --> 00:14:05 eight by 11 photo of me on
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 stage and Ernie at the time
00:14:08 --> 00:14:16 14 years ago a skinny security uh a prison guard and I wanted to deny it I was
00:14:16 --> 00:14:21 almost like I felt like Peter I ain't gonna say I felt like Peter but I wanted
00:14:21 --> 00:14:25 to do something like Peter And he said, no, you must got the wrong person.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:32 But he had the smoking gun in his hand. And I said, yeah. He said, well, I'll be darned.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:39 And he looked out for me, gave me the good job, gave me supervisor's job over there in landscape.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:47 And then to make a long story short, the Lord just did a 180 with my life.
00:14:47 --> 00:14:52 And after the nominations and all of that stuff, all of the violence and all
00:14:52 --> 00:14:56 of that stuff, the Lord did and sent me back.
00:14:56 --> 00:15:01 Somebody told me you will never be able to go back into solid day at prison because you did time.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:09 You especially won't be able to go. So I knew a God that they didn't know.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:17 I know. And just like I told my wife, God will open any door for you if you
00:15:17 --> 00:15:22 are going to take his gospel and give him the glory for the purpose of his glory,
00:15:22 --> 00:15:24 for the purpose of souls.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:29 God can do anything. And I prayed. I said, God, they say I couldn't do it.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 Open those doors. I got a letter, an email route. I got an email saying, you've been clear.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:43 I danced right inside of the living room. I just danced and nobody could tell me what God did.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:48 And I walked inside a solid dad prison through the visitors,
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 through the visitors this time.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:59 And I don't think So I walked through the visitors portion of it and they escorted
00:15:59 --> 00:16:03 me to another, what do you call it,
00:16:03 --> 00:16:09 a metal detector and took me into Soledad South.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:16 And I was able to see where the dorm that I was in.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 And I'm telling you, I just almost got teary.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:25 Then they took me, after I spoke right there, then they took me to Central,
00:16:26 --> 00:16:32 where Sir Hand, Sir Hand, and you know them guys, and Soledad Brothers are locked up.
00:16:32 --> 00:16:40 And that's where they took me to Central, to the chapel, and that's when it hit me.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:48 I testified after they called me on, and I just had to shut my eyes because here I was, Eric.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:54 Brother Eric, back in the place three times, but this time to tell them about
00:16:54 --> 00:16:57 Jesus Christ and how he turned my life around.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:02 I said, I know a lot of y'all wasn't born, but I'm here to tell you God can do anything.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:09 Yep. And that's how it happened. So, and that's basically the whole premise
00:17:09 --> 00:17:13 of this book that, you know, you talk about,
00:17:13 --> 00:17:20 it's an autobiography because you talk about your journey from growing up with
00:17:20 --> 00:17:24 your dad and performing with your dad in the business,
00:17:25 --> 00:17:33 all the struggles that you went through and how you came into.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:39 Up to, uh, to be where you are now, a man of God and preaching the gospel.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 So why did you feel that you needed to write this book?
00:17:43 --> 00:17:51 Uh, well, I have been, I have been encouraged.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:57 I have been encouraged by some of everybody, even by ex-convicts,
00:17:58 --> 00:18:07 convicts, uh, school teachers in seminary and in college and in the Bible college.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 It just encouraged and people in church tell your story.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:22 And my manager, Ron Kramer, my producer, Larry Baptiste, you got to tell this story.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:27 And we wrote 10 pages and my manager went to work.
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31 He went to work and people We just know we want blood, sweat,
00:18:31 --> 00:18:35 and tears, rape, and we don't want that kind of stuff.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:41 But one day, like I said, 10 years ago, we prayed, or I prayed.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:48 And 10 years later, they found Ron got in touch, or they got in touch with him.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:52 He offered them the 10 and 10 words.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:59 And is it Rowan and Littlefield? So a little Phil and Rowan publisher says,
00:18:59 --> 00:19:03 we would like to publish this book. And I danced again.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:13 I danced again because I knew that God was giving me a platform because he knows.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:18 I don't believe, I don't say it like that, but I know that he knows that.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:27 I know that he knows that I love him and all I want people to do that struggled like I have.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 Oh, I'm telling you, I've been through it.
00:19:30 --> 00:19:34 And the people that are hopeless don't think that they can't make it.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:40 I want them people to hear how a man named Jesus turned my life around.
00:19:41 --> 00:19:48 They said, even my mother and my father, he won't live to be 21 to 23. I believed it also.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:54 All the times I overdosed, all the time I woke up, Erik, on the hospital bed
00:19:54 --> 00:19:58 with them putting that boom and me bouncing up and bouncing and bouncing.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 We almost lost you, son.
00:20:01 --> 00:20:05 And that's why I wanted people. I want people. And scripture says,
00:20:06 --> 00:20:11 they overcame him by the blood of the land and by the word of their testimony,
00:20:11 --> 00:20:15 and they love not their lives unto death.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:23 I wanted to testify to it from a platform where the whole world can hear that noise.
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 Well, and your book does that.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:32 And it's not really a long book, but that message gets there.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 And all I kept thinking about when I was reading it was when I was mentoring
00:20:37 --> 00:20:43 young people, especially young black men, And there was one in particular that was kind of like.
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 The leader of the group, they were like in a group home.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:51 So he was kind of like the leader and he didn't see any direction.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:57 And I remember saying, I bought him the autobiography of Malcolm X. And I said, read that.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:02 And when he read how Malcolm came from being, you know, a hoodlum,
00:21:03 --> 00:21:08 as Malcolm would call himself, to being a leader like that, it transformed his life.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:13 And I think your book in the hands of young people who feel that they don't
00:21:13 --> 00:21:17 have any other direction, who feel like they're only going to live for this
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 moment and they're not going to grow old like me.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:27 You know what I'm saying? They need to have a book like that to show them that there is a way.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:31 So I'm glad that you wrote the book. I'm glad you wrote your testimony out.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:39 How tough was it? Because, you know, the young folks have this term now called Nepo baby. Right.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:44 Where it's like you're the child of somebody famous.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:51 And so the perception is, is that you didn't have to work as hard to get status
00:21:51 --> 00:21:53 as opposed to maybe your parents.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:58 What what was it like growing up because i
00:21:58 --> 00:22:01 i want people you know to read a book
00:22:01 --> 00:22:09 but i want people to understand that your life growing up as the son of a famous
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 musician was not as langston hughes would say a crystal stair kind of talk about
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 what it was like growing up with your dad what kind of dad, was he?
00:22:20 --> 00:22:27 Just talk a little bit about that and what do people get wrong in perceiving
00:22:27 --> 00:22:31 that you had an advantage compared to everybody else?
00:22:32 --> 00:22:38 Great question. My dad was just like Mr. Fred Bates and Mr.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:41 Powler and Mr. Rivers down the street.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:49 They worked at the factories in Detroit, Ford Motor Company and Chrysler's.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:56 And every day or every morning, every evening, depending on what shift they had.
00:22:57 --> 00:23:04 They would all kind of like come out because they knew what time the DSR bus ran on McClellan.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:10 He was a regular guy. When they walked out, he would, hey, Mr.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 Rivers, and he would have his guitar and his amp. Well, he didn't take the amplifier
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 because that amplifier, I remember him taking it once.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:23 It was really too heavy, but he took his guitar and they would walk together.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:27 They'd have their hard remember the
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 metal the metal lunch lunch
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 boxes and their helmet and my dad have his guitar
00:23:33 --> 00:23:36 and they would head to dsr to make make a
00:23:36 --> 00:23:39 long story short he was a regular guy you start
00:23:39 --> 00:23:43 noticing the levels at some
00:23:43 --> 00:23:48 point in his career because you saw long-haired hippies
00:23:48 --> 00:23:52 from england with funny accents i
00:23:52 --> 00:23:56 say that jordan lee sir john
00:23:56 --> 00:24:02 by jove and you hear these different accents and long hairs and platform shoes
00:24:02 --> 00:24:10 and cameras are now on our front porch and we like wow what's going on you know
00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 then you hear him on the radio he'd be like Whoa.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:20 And then people tell you, older people tell you, your dad is famous.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:23 He never, I never seen him beat on his chest.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:30 Never seen him tell people you can't come in to meet me. You got to stand in
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 line or you got to make an appointment.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:38 You didn't care how you dressed or how you look or what color you were. Let him in.
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 That's who he was. That's who he was.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:47 He, he, he, and he was a comedian. He missed his calling. He was also a comedian.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:54 He did impersonations of people. They were funny and corny and just a loving
00:24:54 --> 00:24:59 person and would jump out of an airplane to save you, to help you.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:07 That's what he would do. Now, in terms of people having the facade that because you Frank Sinatra Jr.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:15 Or if you were Willie Mays Jr. or whoever you were, that wasn't the case.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:16 I'm just to speak for myself.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:22 That wasn't the case with me. It was all that glitters is not gold.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:30 And because a person laughs real loud, you can't see what's in the heart behind the laugh.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:39 And where's another one? Because the apple is red and looks shiny and delicious and is attractive,
00:25:39 --> 00:25:42 you know you you realize that
00:25:42 --> 00:25:46 you don't know that there's a worm and
00:25:46 --> 00:25:49 some rotten decay on the inside that
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 was me that was me that was
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 me so how did how did we get there how did how did
00:25:56 --> 00:26:00 how did we get to a point where you you
00:26:00 --> 00:26:03 you came out of that because you looked up
00:26:03 --> 00:26:06 to your dad it's pretty obvious and and you
00:26:06 --> 00:26:10 said that you had a mindset where it's like well i'm not gonna live forever
00:26:10 --> 00:26:15 so i'm gonna live how did how did how did john lee hooker jr become that that
00:26:15 --> 00:26:23 that that apple that had the worm in it it started i believe.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:31 And I use that analogy all the time. The apple doesn't fall too far from the
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 tree, but mine's rolled down the hill.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:42 There is a lot that I can say that, and I can remember the scripture.
00:26:42 --> 00:26:48 And it says that Jesus said, a little leaven, leaveneth the whole lump.
00:26:49 --> 00:26:54 And all it took was a little, and it just began to grow.
00:26:54 --> 00:27:00 I saw people shoot through the front door, violence, I saw violence,
00:27:00 --> 00:27:03 I saw eyewitness infidelity.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:14 Eyewitness, I watched my two people that I love so much grow apart.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:23 And you wonder, well, if I love two people and one is going this way and one
00:27:23 --> 00:27:27 is going that way, what am I going to do as this little?
00:27:27 --> 00:27:36 And when I cry out for help, there's this gentleman that has an extraordinary type of employment.
00:27:36 --> 00:27:44 He has to fly to the other parts of the world and I can't give him a hug and I can't say, help me.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:49 And what do I do? And then I, when I reach over here and my mama, where is she at?
00:27:49 --> 00:27:55 So I use this song, I use this analogy in a song also.
00:27:55 --> 00:28:03 And it was, I used drugs and alcohol and all of that dirty, rotten stuff as
00:28:03 --> 00:28:07 a bandaid to put over my bullet wound.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:12 And it didn't stay long because it kept on coming off and it kept on bleeding.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:19 And just one thing turned to another. I was almost killed when I was 16.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:30 My fault, my fault, my fault. And juvenile hall, 15, 16, then graduated to the county jail.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:34 And I watched my friend. I didn't watch it witness but
00:28:34 --> 00:28:38 my friend Henry 17 also
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 we three of us one two three I think
00:28:41 --> 00:28:44 it was three of us on the fourth floor in
00:28:44 --> 00:28:47 the county jail in Detroit when I woke
00:28:47 --> 00:28:55 up I learned that my friend well I really found out when I went to court and
00:28:55 --> 00:29:02 I was on my way into the bull bull tank I was on my way to the tank where you
00:29:02 --> 00:29:05 go to the court and I saw Henry.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 Is that true? And I started crying right there.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:20 Because the rumor that I heard that morning came true when Henry changed locations.
00:29:20 --> 00:29:27 They took him out of there and an investigation was going on with Shorty because
00:29:27 --> 00:29:32 Shorty raped my friend, older guy, been to prison two or three times, raped my friend.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:35 And so I'm going through all of this, man.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 And what can I do? I don't have my dad.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 Had my dad I'm coming home and then my
00:29:42 --> 00:29:45 mom so a lot of stuff built
00:29:45 --> 00:29:49 up and and then you got the peers you got
00:29:49 --> 00:29:51 the peers you got people that might be in a
00:29:51 --> 00:29:55 worse situation in myself and you
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 look for birds of a feather
00:29:58 --> 00:30:02 that's like the ones you got on and you're
00:30:02 --> 00:30:04 all agreeing to the same lie and
00:30:04 --> 00:30:08 you're smoking cigarettes at 14 years
00:30:08 --> 00:30:11 old and you're drinking wine and back in
00:30:11 --> 00:30:18 you you sniff an airplane glue in a paper bag remember the penny bags airplane
00:30:18 --> 00:30:24 glue just blow your head off i did that one time i never did it again but just
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 my my my point is i had a lot on my mind i had a lot.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:34 I had a lot. I had a lot. And I cried in juvenile hall. I would get under my
00:30:34 --> 00:30:37 covers and I would just cry.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:41 And when it was daytime, I'd come out like wasn't nothing.
00:30:41 --> 00:30:44 Band-aid over a bully.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:52 So, excuse me, without giving away, because I want people to buy the book,
00:30:53 --> 00:31:00 But there was another quote you said that I think kind of gets us to the redemption part.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:08 It says, we're free to do whatever we want, but we mustn't use our freedom in
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 Christ as a cover up for evil.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:22 Talk about that quote. So in that scripture, do not use your liberty as a cloak of deception.
00:31:24 --> 00:31:29 We have, especially Christians, we have all of the opportunities to,
00:31:29 --> 00:31:37 and I'll use this, we have all the opportunities to bite that apple that God forbids us to eat.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:43 And I am a trusted, and just like you are trusted,
00:31:43 --> 00:31:51 Christians are, especially those who have titles or those who've been in the
00:31:51 --> 00:31:54 church for a long time, people trust us.
00:31:54 --> 00:32:02 People trust us. And I had many opportunities, and the devil told me to do the same thing.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:09 You can get a whole lot of money, just like those megachurches does,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:13 some of those megachurches, and get all that money.
00:32:13 --> 00:32:19 You could sell kilos of dope if you wanted to know one would ever know it.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:24 I remember one time I was opening up my bank account.
00:32:24 --> 00:32:28 I only had a few dollars in it, but I opened up my bank account,
00:32:29 --> 00:32:33 Erik, and there was $30 in my bank account.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:44 And I remember laughing about it. But I remember when I told him that I had,
00:32:44 --> 00:32:48 I said, I woke up, I checked my bank.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:51 She said, I said, $30.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 And she shouted, hallelujah.
00:32:55 --> 00:32:59 Like God. And I told my partner, he said, won't God do it?
00:33:02 --> 00:33:09 And that's what I mean. I didn't use my liberty, you know what I mean,
00:33:09 --> 00:33:14 to take advantage of an error from bank account people,
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 giving people back what I wanted.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:28 So that was my way, redeeming my personality, my character, my name, because I had a bad name.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 I had a bad name. You may thought it was me. Yeah, I know.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:34 I know his dad, but him? Oh, no.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:42 But yeah, that's what that means. Yeah, because I know you went through a journey
00:33:42 --> 00:33:49 where, you know, you were coming out and, you know, you got you had a success.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 Career of your own in music.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:58 But it was kind of like you kept going back and forth, right?
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 It was like you were trying to live a godly life, but then you were still in
00:34:02 --> 00:34:05 the music business and you kept slipping and all that stuff.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:12 So when I saw that, I said, yeah, that's a pretty good summation about how even
00:34:12 --> 00:34:16 when we feel that we're doing something we're meant to do.
00:34:17 --> 00:34:22 That it's like, we're really not fulfilling what our true purpose is,
00:34:22 --> 00:34:28 but we're trying to use God as a cover to justify it and say,
00:34:28 --> 00:34:31 this is, but, but, you know, I, I'm a believer.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:34 I'm, I, I'm saved. So I'm supposed to be doing this. And then when you keep
00:34:34 --> 00:34:38 falling back, you're like, well, if this is really what's supposed to happen,
00:34:38 --> 00:34:43 then, then why do I keep going through these struggles and all that stuff.
00:34:44 --> 00:34:49 Because, you know, one of the things that, you know, the Apostle Paul basically
00:34:49 --> 00:34:52 tells us is that we have to die.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:56 The old person has to die for us to be a new person in Christ.
00:34:56 --> 00:35:02 And it's one thing to read that, and it's one thing to say, I believe that,
00:35:02 --> 00:35:04 but it's another thing to live that.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:10 Just real quickly, what was that moment when you realized that,
00:35:10 --> 00:35:15 This part of me has to die and I have to just and I have to go forward and step out in faith.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:25 Again, I reiterate to the glamorous part of the world.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:36 Nominated, invited to one of the biggest festivals in America,
00:35:36 --> 00:35:42 the biggest festival in Russia and Turkey and Australia.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:50 And being invited to being nominated once and twice for a Grammy and walking
00:35:50 --> 00:35:54 the red carpet and all of this glamour.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:56 And then you fall back.
00:35:56 --> 00:36:05 There's a scripture says, as a fool returns to his folly, so a dog returns to his own vomit.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:13 The same thing that got me almost killed many times, the same lifestyle.
00:36:14 --> 00:36:17 I went back and I licked it up.
00:36:18 --> 00:36:29 And one day, God told me through a pastor, you are not a nightclub entertainer.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:33 You are a preacher of the gospel.
00:36:33 --> 00:36:40 And it was a struggle trying to pull off that old man.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:47 But I believe that God knew that deep down inside my heart, I wanted to shake it.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:49 That's the script. That's the name of my book, brother.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:57 And I was reading the scripture and it says, he that dwells in a secret place.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:03 He that dwells in a secret place resides under the shadow of the almighty.
00:37:03 --> 00:37:08 That is the shadow hallelujah that
00:37:08 --> 00:37:12 i am under now not under the nightlife god
00:37:12 --> 00:37:17 bless the blue singers but i don't sing about me and my baby did whatever last
00:37:17 --> 00:37:22 night and got drunk and or let the good time roll i don't care if you're young
00:37:22 --> 00:37:28 or old all you got to do is let the good time roll i don't do it no more. And I am so happy.
00:37:28 --> 00:37:37 I'm at peace. I know, I know that I know that when I die, I'll see Jesus Christ face to face.
00:37:37 --> 00:37:42 I know that. I know that. And you can't serve two masters.
00:37:42 --> 00:37:47 You cannot serve two because you're going to love one or you're going to hate the other.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:51 And at that point in my life, like I said, I failed four times.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:57 That point in my life, I saw myself falling in love with the world.
00:37:57 --> 00:37:59 And I know it was only temporary.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 I knew the scripture. I knew the scripture.
00:38:04 --> 00:38:09 I knew the scripture. And it is the scripture that I give God the glory for because.
00:38:10 --> 00:38:13 I came back because of the scripture.
00:38:13 --> 00:38:21 The scripture says a righteous man falls several times and rises back up again.
00:38:22 --> 00:38:28 And I was that prodigal son, man. I knew there was a God that would forgive
00:38:28 --> 00:38:34 me and that would take me back, irregardless of all the wrong that I have done.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 He took me back. And here I am now, bro, talking on Erik Fleming's show.
00:38:42 --> 00:38:47 Well, I just think there was a preacher friend of mine, and one time he said
00:38:47 --> 00:38:52 that we had to get from the shadow of the world into the shade of the righteousness.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:55 And so that's all I kept thinking about when you were giving that answer.
00:38:56 --> 00:39:00 And I think that's apropos. But now you said you're on the Erik Fleming show.
00:39:01 --> 00:39:06 So this is a political show. So I got to ask you a couple of political questions.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 But I'm not going to put you on the spot, really.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:15 But I do always when I have somebody that is that that are ministers on the
00:39:15 --> 00:39:22 show, I always want to kind of ask them a question about gauging the temperature.
00:39:22 --> 00:39:27 And since now that you are you spent most of your time outside the United States,
00:39:27 --> 00:39:34 when you look back at what's going on in America from a spiritual standpoint,
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37 what what concerns you the most?
00:39:38 --> 00:39:46 Concerns me well what concerns me i i believe you may be talking about what's
00:39:46 --> 00:39:52 going on in america and what concerns me about what's going on in america,
00:39:53 --> 00:40:00 remember jesus said when these things come to pass remember that i told you.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:08 And that's what's going on in America, especially, is Jesus predicted that in
00:40:08 --> 00:40:14 the last days, wickedness would abound and the love of many would grow cold.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:20 We have narcissistic, a narcissistic political system.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:21 You know what's going on.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:28 People are under the impression, and I wrote a song about it that's coming out
00:40:28 --> 00:40:35 in May. People are under the impression that it is money and houses and wealth
00:40:35 --> 00:40:38 that is going to. They can't see heaven.
00:40:38 --> 00:40:47 They can't see glory because they are blinded by the extravagance, the elegant living.
00:40:48 --> 00:40:54 They're making so much money these days in music, in sports.
00:40:54 --> 00:41:00 They are under the impression that they don't need God. They can't see God.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:08 You remember Zacchaeus, the little short guy, when Jesus was passing through, he couldn't see him.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:12 But what he did was he got up in the tree so that he could see him.
00:41:12 --> 00:41:17 And Jesus said, come down for salvation is going to be in your house.
00:41:17 --> 00:41:22 There are some people, brother, that are blinded and they don't want to go up
00:41:22 --> 00:41:25 the tree to see Jesus. They can't see him.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:31 The God of this world, four and four of 2 Corinthians, 4th chapter,
00:41:31 --> 00:41:37 4th verse, the God of this world hath blinded their eyes so that they can't
00:41:37 --> 00:41:39 see and come to believe the truth.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:43 And that's what my concern is. People, people.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:48 Are under the impression that this world is not going to come to the end.
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 This world, they don't need a savior.
00:41:52 --> 00:41:56 You know, I remember a musician showed me a lot of money and put that stack
00:41:56 --> 00:42:01 of money and says, this is my Jesus. This is my religion.
00:42:01 --> 00:42:05 And yeah, that's my concern.
00:42:05 --> 00:42:11 Now you got a politician that wants to take over an entire country.
00:42:11 --> 00:42:15 So, and that's my answer to your question. Yeah.
00:42:15 --> 00:42:23 So the other political question I want to ask you is that you have been in the
00:42:23 --> 00:42:25 system and I worked in the system.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:32 If you didn't know that, I've been in law enforcement. I've worked in the correctional side of it.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:40 So you've been in that, you've been in the system as an inmate and now you go in as a chaplain.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:45 If you had a chance, and I don't know if you've had that opportunity or not,
00:42:45 --> 00:42:49 but if you had a chance to talk to somebody in the political world and say,
00:42:49 --> 00:42:58 hey, look, I would like to see this change or this done dealing with the prison
00:42:58 --> 00:43:00 system in America, what would you say?
00:43:00 --> 00:43:08 What is your biggest concern about that whole cycle? That whole cycle.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:19 Well, you have a lot of people that are in jail because they were profiled.
00:43:19 --> 00:43:25 I would ask that they go through.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:32 Every record, every court record, just hire somebody or they got AI.
00:43:32 --> 00:43:43 AI could go through every police report and just look at the mass amount of
00:43:43 --> 00:43:48 people that have been unjustifiably given life sentences.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:56 I got a friend who's doing 45 years. I've been taking care of him for 22 years
00:43:56 --> 00:43:58 since he's been in prison.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:02 And the guy don't have a main bone in his body.
00:44:03 --> 00:44:09 That's what I would do. I would ask them, if you can do it from a human's perspective,
00:44:09 --> 00:44:13 you got these computers to look at all those records.
00:44:13 --> 00:44:17 And I guarantee you, once they looked at all of those records,
00:44:17 --> 00:44:22 there would be a whole lot of people released. Then I would ask them to look
00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 inside of the Justice Department, the prosecutors.
00:44:26 --> 00:44:31 I just learned that a prosecutor was acquitted in the Aubrey case.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:40 And just look at stuff and see the injustices that are going on in the DOJ and
00:44:40 --> 00:44:43 in the DOC and the Department of Corrections.
00:44:43 --> 00:44:49 That's what I would do if I had the power to do it. All right.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:56 So this is the part of the program, Reverend, where I get the guests to plug themselves.
00:44:57 --> 00:45:01 So how can people get your book? How can people reach out to you?
00:45:01 --> 00:45:08 Are you going to drop another gospel album? Just lay it all out there. What's going on?
00:45:09 --> 00:45:15 Yes, I am about to release my single in May along with the video,
00:45:15 --> 00:45:17 and it's called Heaven Rules.
00:45:17 --> 00:45:28 And, of course, you can purchase my book on every social media distribution,
00:45:28 --> 00:45:33 meaning Amazon Booklist, Book Million, Barnes & Nobles.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:39 You can go to my website if you can't remember that, And you can order not from
00:45:39 --> 00:45:46 me, but by those same distributors that online distributors that I just mentioned.
00:45:46 --> 00:45:51 Also, those who are listening or will be listening in Europe,
00:45:51 --> 00:45:55 you can go to Thalia that and you
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 can purchase that wherever you live in Europe and you can get it there.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:04 And you can follow me on Facebook. You can go to my website,
00:46:05 --> 00:46:12 www.johnleehookerjr.com, and you can go to the ministry page,
00:46:12 --> 00:46:15 and you can write me and ask me any kind of questions.
00:46:15 --> 00:46:20 You might want to ask me for prayer, or how can I find Jesus,
00:46:20 --> 00:46:22 or how can I get off of drugs and alcohol?
00:46:23 --> 00:46:28 Write me, and I guarantee you I'll write you back, and that's how they can do it, brother.
00:46:29 --> 00:46:35 Well, ladies and gentlemen, this has been the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.
00:46:36 --> 00:46:43 And earlier in the interview, you were saying that you didn't have a good name when you were younger.
00:46:43 --> 00:46:48 But I promise you, not only do you have a good name in this lifetime,
00:46:48 --> 00:46:51 but your name is written in that book that's also important.
00:46:52 --> 00:46:58 So I greatly appreciate what you are doing. I greatly appreciate what you have done.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:01 And and I look forward to seeing what
00:47:01 --> 00:47:05 more you're gonna do and as always
00:47:05 --> 00:47:08 you have an open invitation brother to come back
00:47:08 --> 00:47:14 on this show and and you you were saying what a big deal it was to be on the
00:47:14 --> 00:47:18 show it's a big deal for me brother for you to be on the show it is my honor
00:47:18 --> 00:47:24 to be in your presence and so I thank you for coming on thank you God bless
00:47:24 --> 00:47:27 you sir bye-bye all right guys and we're gonna catch out on the.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:45 Music.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:53 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, MiDian Shofner.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:59 MiDian Holmes Shofner grew up and has a rich history in Denver, Colorado.
00:47:59 --> 00:48:03 She recalls stories and experiences in her childhood filled with racial tensions.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:08 Some events were in the national spotlight and others were casual occurrences
00:48:08 --> 00:48:13 in her classroom and neighborhood. Stories centered around Rodney King,
00:48:13 --> 00:48:18 Latasha Harlins, Amadou Diallo, and the vertical O.J.
00:48:18 --> 00:48:22 Simpson were just a few triggering reminders during MiDian's formative years
00:48:22 --> 00:48:27 that the country was divided, despite being taught that America was a place
00:48:27 --> 00:48:28 of freedom and acceptance.
00:48:29 --> 00:48:34 While she was able to compartmentalize these national headlines,
00:48:34 --> 00:48:39 Medin was no stranger to racism from her peers, teachers, and sadly enough, her mentors.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 She leveraged the stories of her elders and her own lived experience to move
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 her work from up next to up now,
00:48:47 --> 00:48:51 and is currently the CEO of the Epitome of Black Excellence and Partnership
00:48:51 --> 00:48:56 and the owner-founder of APM Consulting for Humanity.
00:48:57 --> 00:49:01 MiDian brings her life experience, a relentless pursuit for racial justice,
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 and her expertise as a community leader, corporate executive,
00:49:04 --> 00:49:08 and social justice advocate to a new mission.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:14 MiDian's work is centered on three main pillars, each addressing the community
00:49:14 --> 00:49:18 and providing opportunities to learn, reflect, grow, and change our society.
00:49:19 --> 00:49:23 MiDian teaches and lives her commitment to this work.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:32 And you have heard me before talk about this sister. She is special.
00:49:32 --> 00:49:36 She is one of my favorite guests to have on.
00:49:37 --> 00:49:42 And this is only her second time being on, but the work that she's doing,
00:49:42 --> 00:49:49 it is always my privilege and honor to highlight it and to get her on.
00:49:50 --> 00:49:58 And yeah, you know, this is this is a sister that the people of the Denver area
00:49:58 --> 00:50:00 are blessed to have fighting for them.
00:50:00 --> 00:50:07 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, MiDian Shofner.
00:50:07 --> 00:50:18 Music.
00:50:18 --> 00:50:24 All right. MiDian Shofner, I have to get used to saying that now.
00:50:24 --> 00:50:25 How are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:50:26 --> 00:50:31 I'm getting used to saying it myself. And yeah, I'll say that the word that
00:50:31 --> 00:50:34 I'm using nowadays is things are big.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:39 And so I'll say that I am doing for our people in a big way.
00:50:39 --> 00:50:41 So that's how I'm doing. I'm big.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:48 Well, you know, I told you how I felt about you when I came across you last
00:50:48 --> 00:50:51 time and you're still doing the work.
00:50:52 --> 00:50:57 You know, as a matter of fact, as I was getting ready to prepare to interview
00:50:57 --> 00:51:03 you, the ancestral algorithm hit me and I saw this picture of you in handcuffs.
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 I said, oh, Lord, here we go, Lord. What are we doing?
00:51:06 --> 00:51:10 What's happening? I said, I'm glad he's already scheduled to come on.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:13 So, yeah, so we're going to talk about that.
00:51:13 --> 00:51:17 But as always, we're going to start off and I've got a couple of icebreakers
00:51:17 --> 00:51:20 this time, but the traditional icebreaker has always been the quote.
00:51:21 --> 00:51:29 So this is your quote. We are expecting leaders to lead differently because we've been here before.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:34 Now it's time for us to see leaders who understand what it means to be impossible.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:38 We need impossible leadership right now.
00:51:38 --> 00:51:41 What led you to make that quote? You know,
00:51:42 --> 00:51:47 so I would say that when we think about leadership and we think about,
00:51:47 --> 00:51:50 you know, no matter where the authority sits, if it's through an elected official,
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 if it's in a classroom, a boardroom or behind a pulpit.
00:51:55 --> 00:52:03 When you think about leadership, you have to understand and realize that possible is what got us here.
00:52:03 --> 00:52:06 Wherever we're at in that timeline Possible
00:52:06 --> 00:52:09 got us here And when we
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 are in desperate need And I
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15 would say that we are in that landscape of desperation Now when
00:52:15 --> 00:52:18 we are in desperate need of leaders Who are
00:52:18 --> 00:52:25 willing to create something different And to change the trajectory of the harms
00:52:25 --> 00:52:31 And the patterns of harm That's where we need leaders to start thinking about
00:52:31 --> 00:52:36 the impossible possible because possible got us here and it'll keep us here.
00:52:36 --> 00:52:42 But when it's time for change, we need leaders who are willing to be the impossible
00:52:42 --> 00:52:47 and to start making decisions and leveraging their influence and their platform
00:52:47 --> 00:52:51 and just their skill set to create something different,
00:52:52 --> 00:52:54 something we've never seen. And that is the impossible.
00:52:55 --> 00:52:56 So that's what we need. We need
00:52:56 --> 00:53:01 folks that are willing to lean into that opportunity to be impossible.
00:53:02 --> 00:53:06 Are you seeing that emerge in your area?
00:53:06 --> 00:53:11 Are you seeing some folks that are rising to that occasion?
00:53:12 --> 00:53:16 Are a few, Erik, there are a few leaders that I am seeing that are the leaders
00:53:16 --> 00:53:19 for this time, because we do need impossible leadership.
00:53:19 --> 00:53:21 But I will say that it's not enough.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 There are more leaders right now that I think are, they are feeling that overwhelm
00:53:28 --> 00:53:30 effect and they are also,
00:53:30 --> 00:53:38 they're coming to the reality that they are not the leader that is set to create change.
00:53:39 --> 00:53:42 They're the leader that might be able to hold the status quo.
00:53:42 --> 00:53:48 There might be a leader that might be willing to lean into different iterations
00:53:48 --> 00:53:51 of some of the things that we've already currently seen.
00:53:51 --> 00:53:57 But I think that the impossible leader right now is definitely that purple squirrel.
00:53:57 --> 00:54:03 But we do have some in my community, and I tip my hat and always will stand
00:54:03 --> 00:54:06 shoulder to shoulder with them in their leadership as they continue to navigate.
00:54:07 --> 00:54:11 Yeah, and I know you're going to nurture a few on the side as well.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:20 So the next icebreaker I came up with, actually, is a group that I was involved with with Meetup.
00:54:20 --> 00:54:25 I don't know if you've ever heard of that app or not, but it's called Crossing Party Lines.
00:54:25 --> 00:54:31 And so they came up with this icebreaker to have discussions about politics in this day and age.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:37 So what I need you to do is to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:43 Oh, OK. I'm going to give you 19. All right, 19. So this is your question.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:50 What are some values you think most people share, even if they express them differently?
00:54:51 --> 00:54:57 Wow. Okay. I would say one of the values that I think each and every one of
00:54:57 --> 00:55:00 us can, each and every one of us share is joy.
00:55:01 --> 00:55:08 I think everyone is definitely looking for ways in which they can,
00:55:08 --> 00:55:13 not only they can experience joy, but I think that we all dream about the joy
00:55:13 --> 00:55:14 of those that come beyond us.
00:55:15 --> 00:55:20 And so that value of joy and the opportunity to pursue that authentically,
00:55:20 --> 00:55:22 I think is a value that all of us share.
00:55:24 --> 00:55:28 I would say another one is probably love.
00:55:29 --> 00:55:36 That's something that, you know, no matter who you are, love is what keeps you alive.
00:55:37 --> 00:55:42 Love is something that, you know, the opposite of that would be negligence, right?
00:55:42 --> 00:55:48 So if there is a child that is born and that child doesn't get that love and
00:55:48 --> 00:55:52 that touch, that actually can kill that child.
00:55:52 --> 00:55:57 And so I think that we are born and crafted and designed to receive love.
00:55:58 --> 00:56:03 And as we receive it, we start to understand what it looks like to emulate it
00:56:03 --> 00:56:12 and to give it back. So, but there are definitely different ways in which all of us see joy and love.
00:56:12 --> 00:56:19 And there's a lot of things that can get in the way of how we leave room for
00:56:19 --> 00:56:21 other people around us to pursue both of them.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:26 You know, there are some scarcity mindsets that might set in to where we start
00:56:26 --> 00:56:29 to become a barrier for other people's joy and love.
00:56:30 --> 00:56:34 So, yeah, but I do think that we share the value, but how we live it out is different.
00:56:35 --> 00:56:38 Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. I like that.
00:56:38 --> 00:56:45 All right. So unfortunately, I got a segue to something not so joy for loving.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:55 Talk to me about this brother named Kilyn Lewis, who was shot and killed in May of 2024.
00:56:56 --> 00:56:56 Absolutely.
00:56:57 --> 00:57:02 So Kilyn Lewis, 37-year-old, so young Black man in the city of Aurora,
00:57:03 --> 00:57:08 father, husband, son, brother, and neighbor for a lot of people.
00:57:09 --> 00:57:14 On May 23rd, he was, so I'll kind of go back a little bit.
00:57:14 --> 00:57:22 In May of 2024, he was named in a warrant that was issued out of the city of Denver.
00:57:22 --> 00:57:30 And so there wasn't a lot of information or evidence to substantiate his involvement in the warrant.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:36 And unfortunately, there was a circumventing of process to where the warrant
00:57:36 --> 00:57:39 went straight from the detective to the judge.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:45 It circumvented the district attorney process. So just kind of contextualizing
00:57:45 --> 00:57:50 that, that the warrant that was issued by Denver was the catalyst of what took place.
00:57:50 --> 00:57:55 So this warrant was issued. He was named in the warrant, but it wasn't substantiated
00:57:55 --> 00:57:56 through process and due process.
00:57:57 --> 00:58:03 Denver reached out to Aurora to execute the warrant because Kilyn lived in the city of Aurora.
00:58:03 --> 00:58:11 And so the Aurora SWAT team and also Denver police surveilled Kilyn for two days.
00:58:12 --> 00:58:20 And eventually they went to pursue him for the arrest and they pulled up in non-marked vehicles.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:26 And there were at least 12 officers on the scene initially that were screaming
00:58:26 --> 00:58:30 out commands to Kylin telling him to get on the ground, etc.
00:58:30 --> 00:58:33 So it was definitely the element of surprise.
00:58:33 --> 00:58:38 Kylin was trying to figure out what was going on and he was getting groceries out of his car.
00:58:38 --> 00:58:44 By the time he was able to yield for the police, he had a cell phone in his
00:58:44 --> 00:58:49 hand and he also had a snack in his hand and he was raising his hands in surrender
00:58:49 --> 00:58:51 and he was going down to his knees.
00:58:52 --> 00:58:56 And unfortunately, Officer Michael Deke of the Aurora SWAT team shot him one
00:58:56 --> 00:59:02 time in the abdomen and that was a fatal shot. So Kylin Lewis was killed by
00:59:02 --> 00:59:04 the Aurora Police SWAT team.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:10 And the catalyst of that incident was through a faulty warrant by the Denver police.
00:59:10 --> 00:59:14 So because in Georgia,
00:59:14 --> 00:59:20 the way it works is that if the Atlanta police wanted to arrest somebody in
00:59:20 --> 00:59:24 East Point and they solicited East Point's help,
00:59:24 --> 00:59:29 It's like the East Point officers will have to go before the Fulton County Sheriff,
00:59:30 --> 00:59:36 be deputized, and then they could make the arrest at that point if the person
00:59:36 --> 00:59:39 that Atlanta was looking for resided in East Point.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:48 Is there a similar process in Colorado where, you know, who gave the Aurora
00:59:48 --> 00:59:53 police the authority to execute the warrant?
00:59:53 --> 00:59:58 Was it just the Denver police or did they have to go through a process to be able to do that?
00:59:59 --> 01:00:03 Yeah, great question, Erik. From what I understand, jurisdictional control does
01:00:03 --> 01:00:08 not require for sheriff's involvement or deputization purposes.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:13 Seemingly is a relationship between these adjacent jurisdictions.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:20 So it was essentially just a phone call from or an outreach from Denver to Aurora.
01:00:20 --> 01:00:27 And I believe that the chief of police or authoritative commanders or whatnot
01:00:27 --> 01:00:30 have to make the decision to accept the warrant.
01:00:30 --> 01:00:36 But there isn't any kind of, you know, intentional process that requires for
01:00:36 --> 01:00:40 there to be some type of deputization or something formalized for that jurisdictional control.
01:00:41 --> 01:00:46 From what I understand, it is just simply an outreach and an agreement of that
01:00:46 --> 01:00:47 jurisdictional control.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 And because Kylin was going to be arrested in the city of Aurora,
01:00:52 --> 01:00:58 that is where Aurora then became an authority that was able to arrest him.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:04 But as far as the intent in the will through the warrant, It was issued by Denver,
01:01:04 --> 01:01:10 and Denver made an outreach to Aurora, and they accepted that call to execute the warrant.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:14 And the surveillance piece is also something that is extremely troubling because
01:01:14 --> 01:01:18 that surveillance component for two days.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:23 From what we understand, that would have given both Denver police and Aurora
01:01:23 --> 01:01:31 police the opportunity to know if Kylin was armed at the time or if he had anything on his person.
01:01:31 --> 01:01:34 And he didn't have a firearm at all.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:37 He had a cell phone in his neck and was coming from the store.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:43 Yeah, and I kind of misspoke. What I meant to say was that if in that similar
01:01:43 --> 01:01:49 situation, the sheriff would have had to deputize somebody from Atlanta to go into East Point.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:54 So in that case, somebody from Denver would have to have been given the authority
01:01:54 --> 01:01:56 to go to Aurora and make the arrest.
01:01:57 --> 01:02:00 But you're basically saying it was just kind of like a phone call.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:06 So there may be an MOU, as we call it, to where it's an understanding because
01:02:06 --> 01:02:08 a lot of police departments do that.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:15 But that is a concern about why it was a SWAT team and not just,
01:02:15 --> 01:02:20 you know, regular patrol officers, especially since it was a warrant. But, yeah.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:28 So in the middle of that, there was a transition going on with the Aurora Police Department.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:35 And there's a new chief there So, first of all, what has happened to the officer
01:02:35 --> 01:02:38 that shot and killed Mr. Lewis?
01:02:39 --> 01:02:44 And how has the new chief coming into the middle of all that,
01:02:45 --> 01:02:46 how has that chief responded?
01:02:47 --> 01:02:53 So Michael Deke was the officer that shot Kylin and after a grand jury,
01:02:53 --> 01:02:57 he will not be formally charged. He is back on the police.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:00 He is back with the Aurora police.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:05 And the investigation that the Aurora police did justified, well,
01:03:06 --> 01:03:13 I'll say their investigation offered language to attempt to justify the shooting
01:03:13 --> 01:03:15 of Kylin, but they are calling it a just shooting.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:19 So Officer Michael Deke did not experience any reprimand.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:23 And there was the new chief of police by the name of Todd Chamberlain,
01:03:23 --> 01:03:26 who was sworn in as the permanent chief of police.
01:03:27 --> 01:03:32 Aurora has experienced this interim leadership for quite some time.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:37 So Todd Chamberlain is now the permanent chief of police, and he has an interesting
01:03:37 --> 01:03:40 checkered past as it pertains to the Black community.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:42 But his response has not been ideal.
01:03:43 --> 01:03:49 Our organization kind of led the opportunity for Todd Chamberlain to come and
01:03:49 --> 01:03:54 speak to community and answer some questions because there were a lot of curiosities around his hiring.
01:03:55 --> 01:04:00 There was no community involvement in his hiring. And when he was sworn in as
01:04:00 --> 01:04:04 the permanent chief of police, they strategically and intentionally did that
01:04:04 --> 01:04:07 in the middle of the day at 3 p.m.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:11 Where community couldn't even come out to watch the swearing and ceremony.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:15 So it was very clear that they were not looking for community engagement.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:21 And one of the main questions that we had for Todd Chamberlain is why would
01:04:21 --> 01:04:27 you accept a position where you know that community is not involved in that process?
01:04:28 --> 01:04:33 Because one of the things that he said in his acceptance of the position is
01:04:33 --> 01:04:34 that he understands what it looks
01:04:34 --> 01:04:39 like when policing does not involve community and how it can go wrong.
01:04:39 --> 01:04:43 And so with that understanding, we were very curious on why would you take this
01:04:43 --> 01:04:45 position because community wasn't involved at all.
01:04:45 --> 01:04:48 So it has not been a very...
01:04:49 --> 01:04:55 Has not been a trusting space. Todd Chamberlain absolutely inherited a policing
01:04:55 --> 01:05:00 system that broke the trust of the community year over year, time over time.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 And he perpetuated that just in the way that he accepted this position.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:11 So I'm not sure that he has the strategies in place to create trust or to even
01:05:11 --> 01:05:15 start to rebuild trust because we have not seen that from him.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:19 And even with the outreaches from the community that we've helped to create
01:05:19 --> 01:05:23 and design, he's been reluctant to lean into those spaces.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:31 So for the listeners' sake, if y'all remember, and I've had Sister MiDian come
01:05:31 --> 01:05:37 on before, and then she actually submitted a statement to keep us updated on what happened.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:41 This is the same city where Elijah McCall was killed by the police.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:46 So it's Elijah McClain. McClain, I'm sorry. Yeah. forgive me,
01:05:46 --> 01:05:49 Elijah McClain was killed by the police and the paramedics.
01:05:50 --> 01:06:01 And MiDian has been kind of the spokesperson for the McClain family and really
01:06:01 --> 01:06:03 was kind of keeping us updated on that situation.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:07 So this is the same city, y'all. This is what I'm trying to say. It's the same city.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:10 Now it's a different police chief. But.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:17 Since then, I guess the city has fallen under a consent decree,
01:06:18 --> 01:06:21 and I want you to explain how that works, too.
01:06:21 --> 01:06:25 But just to give a dynamic, when MiDian is talking about community,
01:06:26 --> 01:06:32 this city is 59 percent white, 13 percent black and 20 percent Latino.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:39 You know, the new chief, when Donald Trump, Mr.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:44 Chamberlain, when Donald Trump showed up dealing with, you know,
01:06:44 --> 01:06:50 trying to make an issue about the Venezuelan gangs taking over apartments and all that stuff.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:54 He literally had a rally in Aurora, Colorado, and this chief,
01:06:54 --> 01:07:01 who was relatively new, decided that he wanted to have a job fair at a Trump rally.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:08 So just knowing the crowds that show up at Trump rallies, he wanted to have
01:07:08 --> 01:07:13 a job fair to recruit potential police officers at the Trump rally.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:18 So when when system at the end is talk about trust in the community,
01:07:18 --> 01:07:26 these are the kind of things that, you know, would bring concern to to to at
01:07:26 --> 01:07:27 least the black community for sure.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:30 Now, you can correct me on anything I've said.
01:07:30 --> 01:07:38 You can explain on all that stuff, but just kind of start with a consent decree and work from there.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:45 Absolutely. So the city of Aurora and the Colorado Attorney General's office
01:07:45 --> 01:07:51 actually formally went into a legally binding agreement called the consent decree,
01:07:51 --> 01:07:56 and it followed the investigation into Elijah McClain's death.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:02 And broader findings of systemic misconduct by the Aurora police.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:11 So it was designed to offer reform to the Aurora police and fire rescue.
01:08:11 --> 01:08:13 Sometimes we'll leave that piece out.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:19 And it was based on the systemic impacts and harms that the police have been
01:08:19 --> 01:08:23 doing to the community and then also the inadequate medical care that we were
01:08:23 --> 01:08:24 seeing from fire and rescue.
01:08:24 --> 01:08:33 So, what it requires is policy changes, better training, independent oversight,
01:08:33 --> 01:08:37 and improved accountability measures coming from both of those entities.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:45 And the way that it's enforced is a court-appointed independent monitor ensures
01:08:45 --> 01:08:49 compliance with periodic public reporting.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:55 So we get the progress reports that come out and it'll offer details about how
01:08:55 --> 01:09:01 close into compliance the Aurora Police and Fire Rescue are pertaining to what
01:09:01 --> 01:09:06 was outlined in the consent decree and how much they need to continue to navigate in.
01:09:06 --> 01:09:11 And so they'll also, during those progress report updates, they will identify
01:09:11 --> 01:09:19 incidents that align to questions and additional calls for review based on the
01:09:19 --> 01:09:21 oversights that are there.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:28 So there is a force forward review team that is designed to look into things
01:09:28 --> 01:09:31 that are happening and continuing to happen with the Aurora Police or Fire Rescue.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:37 And interestingly enough, Kylin Lewis was a part of this last update because
01:09:37 --> 01:09:43 they actually outlined how this use of force was outside of the compliance of the consent decree.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:48 And that that board, that force, the use of force board is supposed to then
01:09:48 --> 01:09:55 gain insight and they offer questions that the police then has to answer once
01:09:55 --> 01:09:58 they start to uncover the things that happen.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:04 So the ultimate goal is to improve public trust of these two entities,
01:10:04 --> 01:10:08 to reduce the racial disparities that we are seeing in policing,
01:10:08 --> 01:10:14 and also ensure constitutional and humane treatment for the residents of Aurora.
01:10:15 --> 01:10:21 But I'll tell you, honestly, Erik, when people talk about or bring up the consent decree,
01:10:21 --> 01:10:26 there has now been a shift in the narrative where the community is looking now
01:10:26 --> 01:10:31 at the attorney general's office and we're letting them know that they are laughing in your face.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:35 This legally binding agreement that you claim to have that is supposed to be
01:10:35 --> 01:10:41 driving this reform is starting to become very evident that this is very performative.
01:10:41 --> 01:10:43 You can write down on paper what's happening.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:48 You can tell us about the use of force. We know the disparities because our community is living it.
01:10:48 --> 01:10:53 So we don't need anything that is written on a piece of paper to let us know that this is happening.
01:10:54 --> 01:11:00 What we actually need to see are the mechanisms and the practicality of how
01:11:00 --> 01:11:04 this consent decree is supposed to move from concept into practice,
01:11:04 --> 01:11:07 because that is not happening in current state.
01:11:07 --> 01:11:10 So what has been the action?
01:11:10 --> 01:11:16 What has the community been doing? I've seen, you know, some pictures of members
01:11:16 --> 01:11:19 of the community at the city council meetings and all that.
01:11:19 --> 01:11:23 What are the action steps for taking it to specifically with Mr.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:28 Lewis and then in dealing with this consent decree and trying to get it?
01:11:29 --> 01:11:34 Put some teeth into it, I guess. Absolutely. So specifically to Kylin,
01:11:35 --> 01:11:36 the movement for Kylin Lewis.
01:11:36 --> 01:11:40 The images, the video, and all of that that you've seen at city council,
01:11:41 --> 01:11:45 that's been at the core of the action that the community has taken.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:50 We've decided to leverage the city council meetings and their public comment
01:11:50 --> 01:11:56 segments to ensure that we continue to keep Kylin's name alive and active in
01:11:56 --> 01:11:59 front of the leaders that are guiding the city of Aurora.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:04 The city of Aurora is city council controlled. It does not have mayoral control.
01:12:04 --> 01:12:09 So that simply means that the city council and the city manager are the ones
01:12:09 --> 01:12:14 that actually would be responsible, be responsible to the authoritative parties over the police.
01:12:14 --> 01:12:17 In a lot of cities, it's the mayor, but in Aurora, it's the city council.
01:12:18 --> 01:12:24 So we've continued to leverage that platform. And we've infiltrated every single
01:12:24 --> 01:12:30 meeting since June of 2024. And we're going to continue to do that as we navigate
01:12:30 --> 01:12:31 and we walk alongside the family.
01:12:32 --> 01:12:37 Additionally, we are making sure that Kylin's family has access to our legislators,
01:12:37 --> 01:12:43 has access to the ACLU, and has access to any of the outlets that will ensure
01:12:43 --> 01:12:45 that this story continues to be amplified.
01:12:45 --> 01:12:53 Because with them not charging Michael Deke with killing Kylin and allowing for
01:12:53 --> 01:12:57 there to be some reprimands, we now know and understand that this is going to
01:12:57 --> 01:12:59 have to come through a different lens.
01:12:59 --> 01:13:05 So the family is definitely well incubated in the process.
01:13:05 --> 01:13:08 And interestingly enough, Kylin's mother lives in Georgia.
01:13:08 --> 01:13:14 She flies out to Colorado once a month to continue the fight and the advocacy.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:18 So we continue to take her lead and the lead of the family that is here in Aurora.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:23 And we also are doing rallies and we're doing marches and doing all of it in peace.
01:13:24 --> 01:13:28 And some of us have been arrested in the process.
01:13:28 --> 01:13:31 I mean, we've been, you know, kind of met by the Aurora police at every pass
01:13:31 --> 01:13:36 because they know and understand that continued exposure is going to be the
01:13:36 --> 01:13:38 way that justice will have to be sought for Kylin.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:44 The consent decree itself, we have, so Phil Weiser is currently our attorney
01:13:44 --> 01:13:46 general, and he just put his bid in for governor.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:52 So we are taking this time as he is trying to navigate a different season of leadership.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:59 We are taking this time to ensure that he understands that you are a name that
01:13:59 --> 01:14:04 is affiliated with the lack of reform through this consent decree.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:07 And he's going to have to reckon with that if he's trying to navigate into a
01:14:07 --> 01:14:09 bigger space of leadership for our state.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:13 So it's a lot of work, Erik. It's a lot of work. It's.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:19 It's really hard to watch the families that we continue to walk alongside go through these things.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:26 You know, as we talked about, the consent decree was created and it exists because
01:14:26 --> 01:14:28 of the investigation around Elijah McClain.
01:14:28 --> 01:14:36 Well, sadly enough, the officer and the paramedic that were convicted in that
01:14:36 --> 01:14:39 trial, the officer has never reported to jail.
01:14:40 --> 01:14:45 His sentence was a 14-month work release, and that meant that he was supposed
01:14:45 --> 01:14:49 to spend nights and weekends in jail for 14 months. Well, he's never reported to jail.
01:14:50 --> 01:14:54 He's doing an appeal process, and his appeal doesn't even start until October.
01:14:54 --> 01:15:01 So he continues to just live out his life without any type of repercussion or disruption at all.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:07 And Peter Shakuniak, who was the paramedic that was convicted to five years
01:15:07 --> 01:15:11 in prison, Well, the judge in the case has decided that that's too excessive.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:16 And so now he is simply out on probation and he's on probation for four years.
01:15:16 --> 01:15:21 So, again, gets to go back in and be implemented into community while Sheneen
01:15:21 --> 01:15:26 McClain, the mother of Elijah, has to grapple with the fact that these individuals
01:15:26 --> 01:15:30 are still in the same community that she has to call home.
01:15:31 --> 01:15:35 That's impossible, right? That's impossible. So those are the things that we
01:15:35 --> 01:15:39 continue to put in front of the leadership here in Colorado to let them know
01:15:39 --> 01:15:44 that we are not going to sit idly by and watch this continue to be performative.
01:15:44 --> 01:15:46 We will continue to take to the
01:15:46 --> 01:15:49 streets because the fight for justice is always a fight that's worth it.
01:15:49 --> 01:15:57 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, again, I appreciated you getting something to
01:15:57 --> 01:16:01 me that I could read on the podcast That's dealing with the,
01:16:01 --> 01:16:04 I guess, the commuting of the sentence.
01:16:04 --> 01:16:08 I guess that's the legal term, which I never knew that a judge.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:12 Well, I guess in Colorado they can do that. I don't know if there's any other
01:16:12 --> 01:16:18 states that they probably are that you send somebody and then, you know.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:25 Then you have a change of heart and say, well, 10 months is equal to five years and I'll let you go.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:29 I had never heard that before. I'm sure there's a lot of folks that wish they
01:16:29 --> 01:16:31 had that kind of luxury, especially those that look like us.
01:16:31 --> 01:16:33 But that would be another show.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:40 And I just want, you know, Miss McClain and all those in the Lewis family and
01:16:40 --> 01:16:45 all those other folks to know that we're in solidarity with you and we're in prayer.
01:16:46 --> 01:16:50 And, you know, it's just it's bad enough to deal with the loss of a loved one.
01:16:50 --> 01:16:55 But when injustice is tied into it, it really makes it a challenge.
01:16:55 --> 01:17:00 And so I'm just glad that there's sisters like you out there that's helping them out.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:06 Let's talk about this, this whole thing with this Venezuelan gang.
01:17:07 --> 01:17:10 So Aurora got into national news during the political election,
01:17:11 --> 01:17:15 the presidential election, because Donald Trump said that there was this Venezuelan
01:17:15 --> 01:17:19 gang and they took over an apartment complex and he showed up.
01:17:20 --> 01:17:25 And like I said, the chief of police did a job rally there, you know.
01:17:25 --> 01:17:31 And, you know, and, and, and the ironic thing is, is that Aurora.
01:17:31 --> 01:17:36 Voted Democratic. They voted for the vice president in the election,
01:17:36 --> 01:17:42 even with all this hate mongering that Trump brought out there.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:47 What is the situation now from what I understand as we are recording is that
01:17:47 --> 01:17:50 ICE has made its presence there.
01:17:50 --> 01:17:55 Now they're actually physically in Aurora trying to arrest people. What's going on?
01:17:56 --> 01:18:02 Yes, they are absolutely 100% active and they are targeting some of those areas
01:18:02 --> 01:18:09 that were said to have been infiltrated and taken over by the Tren de Aragua Venezuelan gang.
01:18:09 --> 01:18:18 So it seems as if they are masking this under some type of DEA involvement,
01:18:18 --> 01:18:24 because I'm assuming that the DEA gets to move differently than ICE does in our cities and states.
01:18:24 --> 01:18:31 So as they are going into these living, into the apartment complexes,
01:18:31 --> 01:18:38 these homes, the schools, et cetera, they are asking people if they have drugs on their possession.
01:18:39 --> 01:18:41 If there are drugs in their home.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:46 And that I think is what they are leveraging in order to justify their presence.
01:18:47 --> 01:18:52 What we saw happen just two days ago was probably the most egregious that we've
01:18:52 --> 01:18:57 seen since this, you know, Venezuelan takeover rhetoric started.
01:18:57 --> 01:19:06 So two days ago, you had like military style engagement with folks in the city.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:10 There were staging areas. They were knocking down doors without permission.
01:19:10 --> 01:19:19 They were detaining people at schools, parents at schools, and they were also arresting people.
01:19:19 --> 01:19:25 I believe there is about, I want to say we're in the hundreds now of individuals
01:19:25 --> 01:19:26 that have been arrested.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:31 And from what I understand, there's been one person that has an affiliation
01:19:31 --> 01:19:33 with Tren de Aragua, allegedly.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:40 And our news outlets continue to work to identify who is it that is being detained,
01:19:40 --> 01:19:41 what is their affiliation, and what.
01:19:43 --> 01:19:47 Because a lot of these individuals haven't even been charged with anything.
01:19:48 --> 01:19:52 So, and that's as we're recording, for my knowledge, we have not seen,
01:19:52 --> 01:19:54 you know, the charges that are coming down and things like that.
01:19:54 --> 01:20:00 And then when they were interviewing someone that had did a raid back on the
01:20:00 --> 01:20:03 26th of January, there was another raid through,
01:20:03 --> 01:20:08 again, the masking of DEA and ICE at a nightclub in Adams City,
01:20:08 --> 01:20:10 which sits in Commerce City.
01:20:10 --> 01:20:13 They said that when they walked
01:20:13 --> 01:20:16 into that space the moment they
01:20:16 --> 01:20:19 turned the lights on all of a sudden the drugs fell
01:20:19 --> 01:20:22 on the floor so they weren't able to associate that
01:20:22 --> 01:20:29 back with anyone specifically inside of the facility so you know just the the
01:20:29 --> 01:20:34 the commentary that we're getting Erik it's just it's it's disgusting right
01:20:34 --> 01:20:39 I mean it's it's obvious that this is something that is being done intentionally
01:20:39 --> 01:20:41 to target a specific community.
01:20:42 --> 01:20:48 And the way that people are being paraded, the way they are parading those that
01:20:48 --> 01:20:55 are being taken into buses and taken away, it's just really, really disgusting.
01:20:56 --> 01:21:02 And it does come from, and it stems from the rhetoric that came from City Council,
01:21:03 --> 01:21:03 the Aurora City Council.
01:21:04 --> 01:21:09 Councilwoman Danielle Jerinsky was the author, essentially, of what we're seeing
01:21:09 --> 01:21:15 because she was the one that created a lot of the rhetoric,
01:21:15 --> 01:21:19 put it in front of individuals that were able to fan the flame.
01:21:19 --> 01:21:25 And she also was at the Donald Trump rally that was out here in Aurora when he came.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:31 So that Operation Aurora that we heard Donald Trump spewing during his campaign
01:21:31 --> 01:21:37 and his promises and his campaign, it really did stem from Councilwoman Danielle Jerinsky,
01:21:37 --> 01:21:43 banned by other members of our state that sadly enough sit in the Republican Party.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:46 You know, I'm unaffiliated, but I mean, that's just the fact.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:50 These are individuals that are associating themselves intentionally with the
01:21:50 --> 01:21:53 Republican Party, and they're the ones that created this narrative.
01:21:53 --> 01:21:58 And now we're here. We're watching people being paraded off,
01:21:58 --> 01:22:01 and we're We're watching children having to be pulled out of school.
01:22:01 --> 01:22:06 We're watching people not being willing and being afraid to go to work because
01:22:06 --> 01:22:07 what is happening with these raids.
01:22:08 --> 01:22:14 So what is what has been the impact besides people not going to work?
01:22:15 --> 01:22:21 So is now not not as many people are out and about.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:28 I mean, what is there some kind of tension in the air? And and let me well, let me just ask this.
01:22:29 --> 01:22:33 You know, one of the things, because you've been doing this work a long time,
01:22:34 --> 01:22:38 and one of the things that has kind of, some of the fallout that's happened
01:22:38 --> 01:22:40 from this election has been...
01:22:42 --> 01:22:45 Lot of black folks are saying, you know what, you know, y'all do you,
01:22:45 --> 01:22:50 we're going to take care of us and, you know, and let it be.
01:22:51 --> 01:22:55 But when you see it happening in front of you, our instinct is.
01:22:56 --> 01:22:58 Well, we got to, we got to help some kind of way.
01:22:58 --> 01:23:02 I know we said we weren't going to do it, but we got to get involved.
01:23:02 --> 01:23:05 We got to, we can't let the injustice happen in front of our face.
01:23:05 --> 01:23:11 What What is what has been the black community's response to what they're seeing
01:23:11 --> 01:23:16 now in Aurora dealing with Venezuelan and just immigrants, period,
01:23:16 --> 01:23:18 because they're not just targeting Venezuelans.
01:23:18 --> 01:23:22 If they only arrested one person and that one person has to be pretty bad or
01:23:22 --> 01:23:27 that one person took over a whole apartment complex, it would seem like it'd be multiple people.
01:23:27 --> 01:23:33 So if you've only arrested one, anyway, what's been the Black community's response
01:23:33 --> 01:23:39 to what they're seeing and how are y'all as activists moving in this process?
01:23:40 --> 01:23:43 Yeah, absolutely. And so I'll definitely, you know, speak for myself and those
01:23:43 --> 01:23:44 that I'm partnering with.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:48 You know, there's there's a lot of individuals that are going to find themselves
01:23:48 --> 01:23:53 trying to navigate this just individually as a neighbor and then also wherever,
01:23:53 --> 01:23:55 you know, you your work is lived out.
01:23:55 --> 01:24:01 So for myself and others that I'm partnering with, we are really working to
01:24:01 --> 01:24:04 ensure that we find our place in this.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:10 We are working to ensure that we are not speaking over, but we are speaking up.
01:24:10 --> 01:24:16 We understand and we acknowledge that when we say ICE and ICE raids,
01:24:17 --> 01:24:19 it is very easy to target that to the Latino.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:26 That is the community that is seemingly taking this blow the worst.
01:24:26 --> 01:24:33 And so we are ensuring that we're creating spaces for those voices to come to know their rights.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:39 We are creating spaces to ensure that people are able to be equipped with information
01:24:39 --> 01:24:43 to where if you're standing in that space, you can help immediately.
01:24:43 --> 01:24:48 Shorter AME, which is one of the oldest Black churches in the state of Colorado,
01:24:48 --> 01:24:52 they actually did a series of Know Your Rights trainings.
01:24:52 --> 01:24:58 And their capacity in the church seats 1, and they were over capacity at
01:24:58 --> 01:24:59 this last training that took place.
01:24:59 --> 01:25:03 So we are seeing people come out from different spaces, different communities,
01:25:03 --> 01:25:05 different lived experiences.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:10 And for the Black community in particular, we know and we understand that we
01:25:10 --> 01:25:15 have a historic resilience that's been lived out publicly in this country.
01:25:15 --> 01:25:19 So we understand and acknowledge that we do have some of the skill sets that
01:25:19 --> 01:25:23 can really align with what is needed and what is necessary for us.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:27 We are creating spaces to where we are open to that.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:31 But again, making sure that we are following the lead of those that are being
01:25:31 --> 01:25:37 impacted by this the most and making sure also that we are intentionally going
01:25:37 --> 01:25:43 to identify and find those that are a part of our Black community to say, hey,
01:25:43 --> 01:25:47 we want to make sure that you're heard as well and that you are seen as well.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:51 Because the immigration component, the narrative is around the Latin community,
01:25:51 --> 01:25:54 but we also understand that there are African immigrants.
01:25:54 --> 01:25:58 You know, there are, you know, immigrants from our AAPI brothers and sisters,
01:25:58 --> 01:26:01 and we want to make sure that they know that these are spaces for them as well.
01:26:02 --> 01:26:07 And as the movements and the protests and the demonstrations are done.
01:26:08 --> 01:26:14 We are continuing to make sure that leaders that are in that space are leaving room for all voices.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:17 If we start to silo voices, This is just going to get worse.
01:26:18 --> 01:26:23 And that's something that we continue as activists in our community to remind
01:26:23 --> 01:26:27 ourselves of and remind each other and to remind our community that we have
01:26:27 --> 01:26:29 to figure out how to do this together.
01:26:29 --> 01:26:36 And once we identify those ways that this alignment starts to become cultivated,
01:26:37 --> 01:26:42 I think we actually are going to be creating a sustainability so that way when
01:26:42 --> 01:26:47 we move beyond this moment and when we survive and we win this out,
01:26:47 --> 01:26:50 because history shows us that it's always those that are on the side of justice
01:26:50 --> 01:26:56 that win, we are starting to have conversations now about what does it look
01:26:56 --> 01:26:57 like for this to be sustainable.
01:26:57 --> 01:27:00 So we don't find ourselves here again.
01:27:00 --> 01:27:04 Oh, that is so hardening for me to hear.
01:27:05 --> 01:27:11 Because, you know, well, I don't want to prolong this too long, but I just, you know,
01:27:11 --> 01:27:16 one of the challenges that we have always had as Black folks in this country
01:27:16 --> 01:27:22 is being able to fight for what we need.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:28 But we have also kind of assumed this role as being the conscience of the nation. Right.
01:27:29 --> 01:27:36 And so I equated to the role that we as a country have accepted in the world. Right.
01:27:37 --> 01:27:40 It's like after World War Two, we were given a charge to like,
01:27:40 --> 01:27:44 look, when when stuff's going down, I know we've created this United Nations.
01:27:45 --> 01:27:49 But when stuff really goes down, we need the United States to step in.
01:27:49 --> 01:27:51 Right. And a lot of people don't like that.
01:27:52 --> 01:27:57 And but when you look at internally in the United States, Black people have
01:27:57 --> 01:27:59 that same responsibility.
01:27:59 --> 01:28:07 When injustice happens, it's either we step in or we're asked to step in.
01:28:08 --> 01:28:16 And, you know, and just the thought that you expressed in that answer and the
01:28:16 --> 01:28:21 optimism that even though we're dealing with some things and we're going to
01:28:21 --> 01:28:24 have to tread a little lighter than maybe we have in the past,
01:28:24 --> 01:28:28 whether it's by emotion or by circumstance,
01:28:29 --> 01:28:30 we're still going to win this thing.
01:28:30 --> 01:28:36 And then we got to figure out after we win this thing, how we come together moving forward.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:41 So you definitely expressed it better than I just did.
01:28:41 --> 01:28:45 And that's why I respect you so much.
01:28:45 --> 01:28:51 Anyway, let me close out asking you about this because this has been...
01:28:52 --> 01:28:57 Has also been part of your work as far as dealing with diversity, equity, inclusion.
01:28:58 --> 01:29:03 And we know, you know, I've said it on my podcast, I've listened to other people,
01:29:04 --> 01:29:11 other podcasters, we know that now they're using the initials DI to mean the N-word.
01:29:12 --> 01:29:18 And, you know, you have devoted some of your professional time to try to get
01:29:18 --> 01:29:26 people to understand the dynamics that diversity, equity, and inclusion is a strength in America.
01:29:26 --> 01:29:29 It's not a weakness. And especially if you're trying to move your business forward,
01:29:29 --> 01:29:35 if you want to make some money, bottom line, you need to be more open.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:41 How has that impacted you and especially your work dealing with Black history
01:29:41 --> 01:29:43 and trying, you know, Black awareness.
01:29:44 --> 01:29:52 How is this mindset that seems to have accelerated over these last three weeks
01:29:52 --> 01:29:59 impacted what you're trying to do to uplift your community and even the state of Colorado?
01:30:00 --> 01:30:07 Absolutely. So I think where, because of what we've heard in the narrative over
01:30:07 --> 01:30:12 the course of the last few weeks about DE and I, I just want to start off,
01:30:13 --> 01:30:15 Erik, by saying that diversity,
01:30:15 --> 01:30:17 equity, and inclusivity is not a product.
01:30:17 --> 01:30:25 It's not something that you buy in a box. It's not something that you can even create a brand from.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:29 Diversity, equity, and inclusivity is a destination on a journey.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:32 And so it's something that you have to pursue.
01:30:33 --> 01:30:40 And as you're in pursuit of it, you essentially have to figure out at what points
01:30:40 --> 01:30:47 do I need to disrupt the way I engage if I really truly am committed to diversity, equity, inclusivity.
01:30:48 --> 01:30:55 So I think one of the problems that we have seen with DE&I is that it has been
01:30:55 --> 01:30:58 created as this marketing tool.
01:30:58 --> 01:31:04 And so once you do that, all of a sudden you can make it a label, right?
01:31:04 --> 01:31:09 You can make it something that is tied specifically to an individual based on
01:31:09 --> 01:31:11 how they look, how they love, et cetera.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:17 So I think as we go through this part of the state that we're in,
01:31:18 --> 01:31:23 that's one of the things that my hope is, is that we as a people just simply
01:31:23 --> 01:31:27 disrupt that narrative from the start and do it for yourself,
01:31:27 --> 01:31:30 do it for the people that, you know, that you're connected with.
01:31:30 --> 01:31:34 Stop allowing DE&I to be presented to you as a product.
01:31:35 --> 01:31:40 And as it pertains to the work that I do and the impact that I'm seeing,
01:31:41 --> 01:31:44 it's always the irony that makes me.
01:31:45 --> 01:31:50 Raise my eyebrows when we're in these conversations, because it's clear that
01:31:50 --> 01:31:55 there is this effort to say DE&I is something that's bad, and we need to get
01:31:55 --> 01:31:57 rid of that, and let's weaponize it.
01:31:57 --> 01:32:02 All I'm seeing as someone that actually does create curriculum around that journey
01:32:02 --> 01:32:07 of DE&I, I'm seeing an outreach and an outcry for me more than I ever have.
01:32:08 --> 01:32:14 People are reaching out saying, we don't want to walk away from this.
01:32:14 --> 01:32:15 We want to actually lean in.
01:32:16 --> 01:32:21 And there are individuals that are now willing and ready to stand even bolder
01:32:21 --> 01:32:26 in spaces to say, we will not regress. We will not move away.
01:32:27 --> 01:32:32 We will not come off of this journey. Now, granted, there will be a large number
01:32:32 --> 01:32:36 of people that are excited to hear that DE&I is being challenged and being stripped
01:32:36 --> 01:32:38 and moved away from certain spaces.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:45 But I think that is something that all of us need to take note of. Pay attention.
01:32:45 --> 01:32:51 Pay attention to those who are willing to walk away from something that actually
01:32:51 --> 01:32:54 should be something that we all run towards, right?
01:32:55 --> 01:32:59 Pay attention to those entities, those individuals, those organizations that
01:32:59 --> 01:33:04 do that, and then start making your decisions based on what you are seeing and
01:33:04 --> 01:33:07 what you are watching from those actions and those inactions.
01:33:07 --> 01:33:16 But I will say that when you talk about DE and I as an opportunity for us to stay connected.
01:33:17 --> 01:33:23 We are the only ones that can decide if we are going to pull ourselves off of that journey.
01:33:23 --> 01:33:29 If this is your off ramp and you get off, understand what the consequences are.
01:33:29 --> 01:33:32 If this is a space where you're not going to take that off ramp,
01:33:33 --> 01:33:37 then continue to pursue it and pursue it intentionally.
01:33:37 --> 01:33:43 And if you find yourself getting off and then you realize that was the wrong
01:33:43 --> 01:33:48 route, I really truly encourage you to figure out what does it look like to get back on?
01:33:48 --> 01:33:53 I certainly hope that you find that on-ramp because there is a society of people
01:33:53 --> 01:33:59 in the majority out here that understand the importance of knowing how to live together.
01:33:59 --> 01:34:06 And for those that don't want to admit or ascribe to us living together,
01:34:06 --> 01:34:11 there's going to be senses of isolation that I'm not sure you're really ready for.
01:34:13 --> 01:34:17 I think that for the diversity, equity, and inclusivity world,
01:34:17 --> 01:34:20 my encouragement to everyone is to hold the line.
01:34:21 --> 01:34:26 If you've lost contracts at a federal level, go out there and seek those that
01:34:26 --> 01:34:29 are not tied to those dollars or those agendas.
01:34:29 --> 01:34:33 There's a lot of people. There's no scarcity in this work. There's a lot of
01:34:33 --> 01:34:36 outlets and spaces that are wanting to do this.
01:34:37 --> 01:34:43 It very well could be as small as a book club. It very well could be as large as a mass congregation.
01:34:43 --> 01:34:49 But just continue to make sure that you, as someone that is leading in this
01:34:49 --> 01:34:53 space, and you have the language and all of the things that you need to present
01:34:53 --> 01:34:55 in this space, don't stop.
01:34:56 --> 01:35:02 Don't stop. Continue to navigate. Put yourself out there. Let people know that you are committed.
01:35:02 --> 01:35:08 And for those that were waiting on organizations to show them how to lean into
01:35:08 --> 01:35:11 D, E, and I, you don't have to wait on anybody.
01:35:11 --> 01:35:17 You can pursue this and you can lean in at your own pace and do it for yourself.
01:35:18 --> 01:35:21 You don't have to wait for an organization to tell you yay or nay,
01:35:21 --> 01:35:24 because honestly, D, E, and I never showed up asking permission.
01:35:25 --> 01:35:28 It's always been something that we should have pursued.
01:35:29 --> 01:35:34 All right, ladies and gentlemen, that was MiDian Shofner.
01:35:34 --> 01:35:39 How can people get in touch with you and keep up with what's going on?
01:35:40 --> 01:35:43 Absolutely. So there are a couple of ways, but I'm just going to let you know
01:35:43 --> 01:35:44 the main way to get in touch with me.
01:35:45 --> 01:35:49 So I am the CEO of the Epitome of Black Excellence in Partnership.
01:35:49 --> 01:35:52 We are a nonprofit organization that is headquartered out
01:35:52 --> 01:35:55 of denver colorado you can go to our website our
01:35:55 --> 01:35:59 website is www.be the
01:35:59 --> 01:36:05 epitome.org just like it sounds or you can always email myself or my team you
01:36:05 --> 01:36:12 can email me at median m-i-d-i-a-n at be the epitome.org or you can email my
01:36:12 --> 01:36:15 team at info at be the epitome.org.
01:36:16 --> 01:36:23 Social media, for now, anyway, on Facebook, you can find me at midian.z.shofner.
01:36:24 --> 01:36:30 And you can also find us on Instagram, BeTheEpitomeCO.
01:36:30 --> 01:36:34 And then also on Facebook, BeTheEpitomeCO as well.
01:36:34 --> 01:36:37 And then the consulting work that I do through 8PM Consulting,
01:36:37 --> 01:36:41 you can also find me on that Instagram that way as well. So there's a few entry
01:36:41 --> 01:36:46 points and I'm always open for dialogue, for discussion, for disruption,
01:36:46 --> 01:36:49 but I'm always here for my people.
01:36:49 --> 01:36:52 So, Erik, I appreciate everything that you do.
01:36:52 --> 01:36:56 I mean, like being able to be here and talk to you every time you reach out,
01:36:56 --> 01:36:57 I'm like, Mama, I made it.
01:36:58 --> 01:37:00 So I appreciate you.
01:37:01 --> 01:37:05 Well, it's always an honor to be in your presence, sister.
01:37:05 --> 01:37:14 And I just, you know, when you know somebody is pure at heart and when you see
01:37:14 --> 01:37:18 the light around them, it's natural to gravitate to them.
01:37:19 --> 01:37:26 And I'm just, and as one soldier said to another, I'm just glad you're on our side, you know.
01:37:27 --> 01:37:31 So I appreciate you and thank you for taking the time.
01:37:31 --> 01:37:37 And, you know, anytime, you know, like, again, like I greatly appreciate you
01:37:37 --> 01:37:39 keeping us updated on things.
01:37:39 --> 01:37:45 And anytime you need to do that, just feel free and just come on. So thank you.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:49 Absolutely. Well, I appreciate it. I received the affirmation and the love,
01:37:49 --> 01:37:54 Erik. I really do. Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:37:54 --> 01:38:03 Music.
01:38:05 --> 01:38:11 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank the Reverend John Lee Hooker Jr.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:17 And my sister in spirit, MiDian Shofner, for coming on the podcast.
01:38:18 --> 01:38:23 You can't help but love Brother Hooker. And please get his book,
01:38:24 --> 01:38:25 From the Shadow of the Blues.
01:38:25 --> 01:38:29 Please, please, please get that. and I,
01:38:30 --> 01:38:38 And Sister MiDian is always going to be, it's always good to have those true warriors out there.
01:38:39 --> 01:38:45 And it's not just, you know, rah-rah emotional type stuff.
01:38:45 --> 01:38:50 I mean, the sister is deep. She's thoughtful and strategic.
01:38:51 --> 01:38:56 And those are the leaders. When I talk about American leaders,
01:38:56 --> 01:38:57 that's what I'm talking about, right? Right.
01:38:58 --> 01:39:03 So, you know, and getting back to Reverend Hooker, just, you know,
01:39:03 --> 01:39:07 the inspiration, just a reminder to our people,
01:39:08 --> 01:39:15 young folks, that no matter how dark the journey may be, there's there's light
01:39:15 --> 01:39:16 on the other side. There's hope for you.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:20 You don't have to stay in the abyss.
01:39:21 --> 01:39:23 You know, you don't have to.
01:39:24 --> 01:39:29 So anyway, thank them for coming on. A couple of points I want to make before I get off.
01:39:30 --> 01:39:35 And I guess it's advice, steam, blowing off steam, whatever.
01:39:36 --> 01:39:42 But a couple of things. So for those of y'all who live and die with social media,
01:39:42 --> 01:39:49 right, that your whole existence in life is to be a social media activist.
01:39:50 --> 01:40:01 I think you need to check your ego and create a reflective space for you.
01:40:02 --> 01:40:07 Now, I'm not going to name names specifically, but you know who you are.
01:40:07 --> 01:40:13 And if you are within the sound of my voice, take it as constructive criticism
01:40:13 --> 01:40:15 and not as a demonization.
01:40:15 --> 01:40:22 Right even though the actions you take demonize the various people that you're
01:40:22 --> 01:40:25 going to need to win the battle right.
01:40:26 --> 01:40:30 It's going to take all of us to form a successful resistance.
01:40:30 --> 01:40:35 And when you understand that, I think that's when your reflective thing will
01:40:35 --> 01:40:41 kick in and you you'll be more precise of who you throw your vitriol at and
01:40:41 --> 01:40:45 who you embrace and camaraderie. Right.
01:40:46 --> 01:40:56 You know, if if you got on social media and you call Vice President Harris off out of her name.
01:40:56 --> 01:41:01 You probably don't need to, when you get in trouble, automatically reach out
01:41:01 --> 01:41:03 to the very folks you insulted.
01:41:03 --> 01:41:07 Because whether you agree with her policies or not, right?
01:41:08 --> 01:41:12 Policies can always be discussed. It's about the bigger picture.
01:41:13 --> 01:41:17 It's about character and integrity. Doesn't matter whether you believe in the
01:41:17 --> 01:41:20 two-party system, whatever, right?
01:41:20 --> 01:41:24 And you can vote who you want to vote for. I've always said that.
01:41:24 --> 01:41:31 But when you get to the point where your rhetoric is more vitriol than it is substantive,
01:41:32 --> 01:41:35 you probably shouldn't be the
01:41:35 --> 01:41:40 ambassador that's sent forward to try to get people on your side, right?
01:41:41 --> 01:41:48 You should step back and let somebody else who wasn't as vitriolic make the
01:41:48 --> 01:41:51 outreach appeal. It's not on you because you've been out front.
01:41:52 --> 01:41:56 Sometimes you might need to step back and let others do that work.
01:41:57 --> 01:42:00 And then when people see at the meeting, it's like, really? Yeah.
01:42:01 --> 01:42:07 And we go from there. But if you were out front and being critical of somebody
01:42:07 --> 01:42:11 Black in the Black community or somebody that the Black community is rallying
01:42:11 --> 01:42:14 around, You probably shouldn't be the person talking to black folks.
01:42:15 --> 01:42:17 Same thing. If you are...
01:42:18 --> 01:42:25 African immigrant, and you're dealing with the struggles right now that you
01:42:25 --> 01:42:32 may be sent out of the country with ICE, but you've been talking about Black Americans,
01:42:32 --> 01:42:38 you know, Native Black Americans, you know, you've been very critical of the
01:42:38 --> 01:42:39 culture and all that kind of stuff.
01:42:40 --> 01:42:45 You probably shouldn't be the one saying, hey, my brother, my sister,
01:42:45 --> 01:42:50 I need help, because you weren't calling folks, brothers, and sisters then.
01:42:50 --> 01:42:52 And that works on the other side.
01:42:52 --> 01:42:58 When we're dealing with some issues, you know, where we're going to need help,
01:42:59 --> 01:43:04 if you ostracized everybody that could help us, you probably shouldn't be the
01:43:04 --> 01:43:07 person to ask for the help.
01:43:07 --> 01:43:13 You should let somebody else that may have a little more grace to make the outreach,
01:43:13 --> 01:43:20 make the appeal. But we're so caught up in our voice has to be the one heard, right?
01:43:20 --> 01:43:26 I mean, you know, I have my podcast and I want my voice to be heard,
01:43:26 --> 01:43:28 but I'm not the voice of Black America.
01:43:30 --> 01:43:39 Not that delusional. I think I have viewpoints based on experience and facts
01:43:39 --> 01:43:43 and even training to an extent.
01:43:44 --> 01:43:49 And knowledge, but I'm not the leader.
01:43:49 --> 01:43:52 I don't think I'll ever be anointed to be the leader.
01:43:53 --> 01:43:57 Had things gone a little different in a certain election or two,
01:43:57 --> 01:44:03 I might've been in a conversation, but even at that point, I'm not trying to
01:44:03 --> 01:44:08 be the leader, the spokesperson, because our voice is not monolithic.
01:44:09 --> 01:44:13 But I do think that my voice should be heard in the discussion.
01:44:13 --> 01:44:18 And I think that once we have the discussion, we have consensus and move forward.
01:44:18 --> 01:44:21 But I'm not the voice, right?
01:44:23 --> 01:44:28 All those institutions I named, National Newspaper Publishers Association,
01:44:28 --> 01:44:32 National Association of Black Journalists, the Black Podcast Association,
01:44:32 --> 01:44:34 there are a lot of black voices out there.
01:44:35 --> 01:44:40 The two people I interviewed today are Black voices that need to be heard, right?
01:44:41 --> 01:44:45 Grace, who does the news, that's a Black voice that needs to be heard,
01:44:46 --> 01:44:52 right? We need, all of us collectively need to be heard, but we're not going to self-anoint.
01:44:54 --> 01:44:59 We may not immediately accept anybody else anointing us, right?
01:45:00 --> 01:45:03 But we got to have a common purpose. We got to have a common goal.
01:45:03 --> 01:45:04 We got to have a common focus.
01:45:06 --> 01:45:09 So I just wanted to get that off my chest because, you know,
01:45:09 --> 01:45:11 I just, it's hubris, right?
01:45:11 --> 01:45:20 It's like people just need to stop smelling themselves and just understand that
01:45:20 --> 01:45:24 every action we take has consequences, good or bad.
01:45:25 --> 01:45:30 And we have to be accountable for that.
01:45:31 --> 01:45:37 And sometimes accountability means, yeah, I made a mistake. I'm sorry.
01:45:38 --> 01:45:43 But, you know, people say, well, the president is not as important and blah, blah.
01:45:43 --> 01:45:46 Leadership matters. And if you have a leader that's never accountable,
01:45:46 --> 01:45:52 There are literally people who are on this planet that the only person they've
01:45:52 --> 01:45:59 known as president of the United States has been Donald Trump or even in their
01:45:59 --> 01:46:04 most formative years of developing a political consciousness. It's been Donald Trump.
01:46:05 --> 01:46:12 And so when you have somebody who doesn't admit to making a mistake with somebody
01:46:12 --> 01:46:14 that doesn't say I'm sorry,
01:46:14 --> 01:46:22 who never acknowledges that they may be wrong at times, who is never accountable for their actions.
01:46:23 --> 01:46:30 Leadership by example matters So, you know, that's just the thing It's like,
01:46:30 --> 01:46:34 it's alright if you don't know It's alright if you make a mistake.
01:46:36 --> 01:46:42 Have the people in place to fix it. If you don't, find those people quickly, right?
01:46:43 --> 01:46:49 I mean, that's how you handle that. That's how you become accountable.
01:46:50 --> 01:46:54 So I just, that was one thing I needed to get off my chest. The other thing
01:46:54 --> 01:46:57 I needed to get off my chest is my beloved Democratic Party.
01:46:59 --> 01:47:06 I have no problem individually with the new gentleman and the new leadership of the party.
01:47:06 --> 01:47:11 And Ken Martin, you know, he is the guy.
01:47:11 --> 01:47:18 So those of us who fall on the Democratic team will have to make the most of
01:47:18 --> 01:47:23 that and pray that he is the guy for real. Right.
01:47:24 --> 01:47:28 To get not only the party back on track, it's bigger than the party is to get
01:47:28 --> 01:47:33 the nation back on track to get us to a point where we're having legitimate
01:47:33 --> 01:47:37 discussions and we're raising the level of the political discourse and we're
01:47:37 --> 01:47:40 saving democracy in the process. Right.
01:47:40 --> 01:47:45 But it sure would have been nice if the Democratic Party made a statement.
01:47:46 --> 01:47:51 When Barack Obama got elected, the Republican Party made a statement.
01:47:51 --> 01:48:00 They said, we've got to we've got to counter this because Barack Obama is a incredible orator.
01:48:00 --> 01:48:05 He's a very intelligent man, probably one of the most decent presidents,
01:48:06 --> 01:48:09 definitely the most honorable president we've had recently. Right.
01:48:10 --> 01:48:13 But he was politically, he was a problem.
01:48:13 --> 01:48:19 If you're a Republican, he just got elected president, very popular,
01:48:20 --> 01:48:24 was able to cross all sorts of lines to get the votes he needed to win.
01:48:25 --> 01:48:31 So the Republicans felt they needed to counter that. And so they went and got Michael Steele.
01:48:31 --> 01:48:35 Michael Steele was a Republican lieutenant governor of the state of Maryland.
01:48:35 --> 01:48:38 And Maryland traditionally is a Democratic state.
01:48:39 --> 01:48:41 And Michael won. Right.
01:48:42 --> 01:48:46 And I can't remember if they had a ticket thing going on and everybody ran individually.
01:48:46 --> 01:48:49 But nonetheless, Michael Steele was a lieutenant governor, Republican lieutenant
01:48:49 --> 01:48:52 governor of Democratic state. And he was a black man.
01:48:52 --> 01:48:55 And that propelled Michael into the national stage.
01:48:56 --> 01:49:00 And he was an effective counter to Barack Obama.
01:49:00 --> 01:49:05 He wasn't as gifted, but he wasn't a slouch either.
01:49:05 --> 01:49:12 He held his own and they were able to flip the House and the Senate during Barack
01:49:12 --> 01:49:16 Obama's term to the point where he couldn't flip it back. Right.
01:49:17 --> 01:49:25 So we pick Ken Martin and Ken is a white guy from Minnesota.
01:49:26 --> 01:49:31 And Minnesota has had a tradition of very strong, progressive,
01:49:31 --> 01:49:33 liberal, Democratic leaders.
01:49:33 --> 01:49:37 I mean, the name of their party is actually the Democratic Farm Labor Party.
01:49:37 --> 01:49:39 It's not the Democratic Party up there. Right?
01:49:41 --> 01:49:44 So there's no question about his bona fides.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:49 I mean, he was an acolyte of Paul Wellstone. And if you don't know who Paul
01:49:49 --> 01:49:50 Wellstone is, please look him up.
01:49:51 --> 01:49:53 And so he's a good guy. All right.
01:49:55 --> 01:49:59 So I grew up in the baseball tradition and I love the game.
01:49:59 --> 01:50:03 And Leo Durocher says, nice guys finish last.
01:50:04 --> 01:50:09 And he meant that he didn't want you to be rude or obnoxious.
01:50:09 --> 01:50:14 But, you know, sometimes in this game, you're going to have to brush that batter back.
01:50:14 --> 01:50:17 Sometimes in that game, you're going to have to slide hard in the second base.
01:50:17 --> 01:50:22 Sometimes in that game, you're going to have to collide at home plate with the catcher.
01:50:24 --> 01:50:30 It's not going to be all perfect And we're at that stage.
01:50:32 --> 01:50:36 And what better time to do something That the Democratic Party has never done,
01:50:37 --> 01:50:43 And that's put a black woman in that position We've had black men We just had
01:50:43 --> 01:50:46 one You know, he lost and blah, blah,
01:50:47 --> 01:50:53 He took that L That's why he voluntarily stepped down you know, when it happened.
01:50:53 --> 01:50:58 But, you know, we've had black men before. Ron Brown was one for sure.
01:50:59 --> 01:51:03 But considering what just happened,
01:51:04 --> 01:51:10 considering how at least half of the nation was rallying around a black woman
01:51:10 --> 01:51:14 who was the first female vice president ever,
01:51:14 --> 01:51:23 it just would have made sense to me to say, can we not put a competent,
01:51:23 --> 01:51:27 aggressive, strategic black woman in that spot? Because they're out there.
01:51:28 --> 01:51:34 I'm sure the listeners can give me all sorts of names of who it could have been. Easy.
01:51:35 --> 01:51:40 Several names. There were some people that were running for the vice chair position
01:51:40 --> 01:51:44 is like, you should have been running for the chair, right?
01:51:45 --> 01:51:49 And, you know, the powers that be and all that stuff. And, you know,
01:51:49 --> 01:51:54 we can get into conversation about money influence and the consulting class,
01:51:54 --> 01:51:56 the donor class, all that stuff.
01:51:56 --> 01:51:58 And all that probably weighed into it.
01:51:59 --> 01:52:05 But if you're serious about achieving the goal of saving democracy,
01:52:05 --> 01:52:16 if you're serious about the goal of making America complete not an exclusive
01:52:16 --> 01:52:20 club for white male Christians but a complete nation.
01:52:22 --> 01:52:26 Should have drafted a black woman.
01:52:26 --> 01:52:30 Probably should have focused, yeah, it's got to be.
01:52:30 --> 01:52:34 The Republicans did it. When they decided they wanted to go up against Barack
01:52:34 --> 01:52:40 Obama, they made a concerted effort to find a competent black man to stand toe-to-toe
01:52:40 --> 01:52:42 with him. We could have done the same thing.
01:52:43 --> 01:52:48 We could have found a competent black woman to stand toe-to-toe with Donald
01:52:48 --> 01:52:55 Trump, Elon Musk, and all these other folks. I mean, guys, Elon Musk is literally
01:52:55 --> 01:52:58 enacting the second phase of the coup.
01:52:58 --> 01:53:01 The first phase was January 6th, 2021.
01:53:02 --> 01:53:08 The second phase is in operation. Now, the Democrats in the Senate are starting
01:53:08 --> 01:53:12 to get riled up, which is another thing.
01:53:12 --> 01:53:15 Chuck Schumer should have never been put back in.
01:53:16 --> 01:53:22 You lost the Senate, dog. How are you still the leader? Mitch McConnell won, and he stepped down.
01:53:23 --> 01:53:29 And Chuck Schumer is still the guy. And I've got personal beef with him. I do.
01:53:29 --> 01:53:36 So I'm not completely unbiased in my position. But we've got to go in a different direction.
01:53:37 --> 01:53:40 We've got to go in a different direction. We can't be nice.
01:53:41 --> 01:53:46 We can't be nice. We can be civil, but we ain't got to be nice.
01:53:47 --> 01:53:51 Our lives are literally on the line. People are being rounded up.
01:53:52 --> 01:53:53 Agencies are being taken over.
01:53:55 --> 01:54:00 Populations are being gentrified, not only locally, but worldwide.
01:54:00 --> 01:54:07 I mean, the president of the United States has basically approved of a gentrification program in Gaza.
01:54:08 --> 01:54:12 This is really, really happening. This is not in that season of Dallas where
01:54:12 --> 01:54:16 Bobby was dreaming. This is really happening.
01:54:16 --> 01:54:21 And we need to step up to the plate and fight for it.
01:54:23 --> 01:54:27 I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. I hope those of you all who are listening
01:54:27 --> 01:54:30 get engaged and do what you have to do.
01:54:31 --> 01:54:35 There's other folks like me that are engaged in doing what we can do,
01:54:36 --> 01:54:41 whether it's through podcasts, industry activism, whatever.
01:54:42 --> 01:54:47 Combinations. The resistance has to be real and it has to be organized and it
01:54:47 --> 01:54:52 has to be strong because they're going for broke.
01:54:53 --> 01:54:59 But as I said in the last podcast, we still have the capacity to pull that plug and we need to do it.
01:55:00 --> 01:55:04 So those are my thoughts, ladies and gentlemen. I just wanted to get that off
01:55:04 --> 01:55:08 my chest and I appreciate your patience and your indulgence.
01:55:09 --> 01:55:12 And, you know, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing.
01:55:12 --> 01:55:19 We're just going to keep doing our best to raise the level and hope that the
01:55:19 --> 01:55:26 adage is true that a rising tide lifts all boats because we need everybody.
01:55:27 --> 01:55:29 Thank you all for listening. Until next time.
01:55:31 --> 01:56:18 Music.
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