Host Erik Fleming interviews Dr. Marlee Bunch about preserving Black female educators' oral histories from Mississippi, the Unhush framework, lifelong learning, and ethical uses of AI in classrooms. He also speaks with Dr. Patrice Fenton about the Ella Baker Institute’s youth leadership programs, community well‑being, and efforts to increase teacher diversity—especially Black men in schools.
The episode combines history, pedagogy, mentorship, and civic engagement, and includes calls to support the podcast and the nonprofit work discussed.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:56 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:07 And as you are listening to this, I hope that you had a Merry Christmas.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:16 We are in the Kwanzaa season now, and getting ready to get rid of 2025 and get into 2026.
00:02:16 --> 00:02:20 Hallelujah, praise the Lord. It's time for a new year.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:27 It really is. I don't know about you, but at one point, it seemed like the year
00:02:27 --> 00:02:30 was going fast, and then it just started dragging and dragging.
00:02:31 --> 00:02:35 I don't know if it was the burden of all this foolishness we got going on in
00:02:35 --> 00:02:39 Washington and some of the states or whatever it was.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:43 But if you are listening to this, you then made it to the homestretch,
00:02:43 --> 00:02:47 and we're about ready to get into a brand new year.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:57 And I hope that 2026 is prosperous and joyful for you as well as your family and everyone else.
00:02:57 --> 00:03:03 This is going to be the last show for the year.
00:03:03 --> 00:03:07 I'm going to take a break. Grace has already started her break,
00:03:07 --> 00:03:12 so we won't have the news segment this episode. We're just going to go straight into the guests.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:17 And you're going to enjoy these two sisters. Excuse me, they're both educators.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:27 And one has written these incredible books that correlate Mississippi's civil
00:03:27 --> 00:03:33 rights history with education and how to apply those lessons in today's education system.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:39 And then we got another sister who is following in the legacy of one of our
00:03:39 --> 00:03:47 great civil rights icons and in the field of education, trying to lift up our youth.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:51 So I hope that you enjoy these episodes. So these interviews,
00:03:51 --> 00:03:53 as you say, and enjoy this episode.
00:03:54 --> 00:04:01 Still looking for subscribers. So you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with
00:04:01 --> 00:04:04 Erik Fleming, or you can go to momenterik.com.
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00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 you know, not only subscribe,
00:04:13 --> 00:04:18 but you can also contact us if you want to be a guest,
00:04:18 --> 00:04:21 you know, if you've got something, you know, you want to talk about,
00:04:22 --> 00:04:29 we'll, you know, See if we can get you on and just understand I'm booked through June.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:37 Praise the Lord. So, you know, if that tickles your fancy, if that's what you
00:04:37 --> 00:04:42 want to do, if you want to learn something about me and all this stuff,
00:04:42 --> 00:04:46 you just go to momenteric.com and you can handle all of that stuff.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:52 So, again, I just greatly appreciate y'all for listening. So let's go ahead and get this started.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:57 My first guest is Dr.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 Marlee Bunch. Dr. Marlee S.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:06 Bunch is an interdisciplinary educator, scholar,
00:05:06 --> 00:05:13 author, and preserver of oral histories dedicated to illuminating untold stories
00:05:13 --> 00:05:17 and fostering human-centered, inclusive learning spaces.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:21 With over a decade of teaching experience across secondary and post-secondary
00:05:21 --> 00:05:26 classrooms, she has consistently championed equitable, rigorous,
00:05:26 --> 00:05:31 and reflective education that honors the lived experiences of students and educators alike.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 A passionate advocate for justice-centered education, Dr.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:40 Bunch earned her doctoral degree in education, policy, organization,
00:05:40 --> 00:05:45 and leadership with an emphasis on diversity and equity from the University of Illinois.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:51 She also holds a Master's of Education and Secondary Education from DePaul University,
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 an MS degree in gifted education,
00:05:54 --> 00:06:01 and an ESL certification, a testament to her commitment to meeting the diverse needs of learners.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:06 She is a National Academy of Education Spencer Doctoral Fellow.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:11 At the heart of Dr. Bunch's work is the belief that history and storytelling
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 hold transformative power.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:18 Her research centers on the oral histories of Black female educators in Mississippi
00:06:18 --> 00:06:23 who taught during the Civil Rights era, 1954 to 1971.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:29 Preserving their narratives is both historical record and source of contemporary wisdom.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:34 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 on this podcast, Dr. Marlee Bunch.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:53 All right. Dr. Marlee Bunch, happy holidays to you. How are you doing?
00:06:53 --> 00:06:57 I'm doing well. Happy holidays to you. It's great to be here with you.
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 Well, it's an honor to have you on.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:03 You caught my attention, and I'll get into that during the interview,
00:07:03 --> 00:07:09 but I wanted to talk to you about your work in education.
00:07:09 --> 00:07:13 But, of course, it's a political show, so we got to tie in politics some kind
00:07:13 --> 00:07:19 of way. but I normally start out the interview with a couple of icebreakers.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:26 So the first icebreaker is a quote. And the quote is, let us not forget,
00:07:26 --> 00:07:28 ever forget such things.
00:07:29 --> 00:07:31 Yeah. What does that quote mean to you?
00:07:32 --> 00:07:40 Oh, I read that quote. It has been probably a good 15 years since I first encountered
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 us from Carole Maso's Ava.
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 And it's interesting because I think that quote
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 has carried through my work has been such a thread
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 that's that runs let us not forget our
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 history the people who have shaped
00:07:56 --> 00:08:01 us I think of my grandmother when I hear that quote yeah I just think it's beautiful
00:08:01 --> 00:08:08 I think it reminds us of all of the deep legacies that run throughout our history
00:08:08 --> 00:08:13 and lives all right so now the next size breaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:25 Ooh, eight. Okay. What is one thing you hope the current administration will
00:08:25 --> 00:08:28 do or not do during their term?
00:08:29 --> 00:08:42 I hope that we can restore the damage that has occurred around the removal of history and stories.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:49 I'm thinking specifically about our museums and make sure that all history is
00:08:49 --> 00:08:56 protected and that we represent true history for our current and future generations.
00:08:56 --> 00:08:59 So you're hoping that they fix what they broke is what you're saying?
00:09:01 --> 00:09:06 Yes, I'm hoping they restore some of that damage that has occurred. Yes, ma'am.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:15 What was it about Mississippi between 1954 and 1971 that inspired you to write
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 two books based upon that period?
00:09:18 --> 00:09:23 Yeah. Well, my grandmother taught in Hattiesburg, Mississippi for almost 40
00:09:23 --> 00:09:29 years, and she passed away, you know, before I was born. So I didn't know...
00:09:30 --> 00:09:33 That history, her history, and her teaching history. Of course,
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 I've been in education now for, you know, for a long, long time.
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 So I think that was kind of the first seed that was planted.
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 And then the other piece is my mentor, Dr. Christopher Spann,
00:09:45 --> 00:09:49 happens to also study Mississippi.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:55 And he has often talked about how Mississippi really represents what the greater
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 country is grappling with.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 So I think during that time, especially during the civil rights movement.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 Mississippi, I think, would be a place that most people would write off.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 You know, yes, it's got racial violence, it's poor, it's this, it's that.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:15 But out of Mississippi came these amazing movements that really helped shape
00:10:15 --> 00:10:17 the civil rights movement.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:23 And these, you know, what Dr. Joyce Ladner would call race women and race men
00:10:23 --> 00:10:29 who were just dedicated to making sure that things like the murder of Emmett Till,
00:10:29 --> 00:10:34 that inequitable voting rights, things of that nature stopped.
00:10:34 --> 00:10:39 And so I think Mississippi is just this beautiful place with,
00:10:39 --> 00:10:45 we know the kind of sad or darker history of Mississippi, but I love the both
00:10:45 --> 00:10:52 and about it in that out of Mississippi were these great educators and these folks who really,
00:10:52 --> 00:10:57 I think, helped shape pathways for me and for educators and people today.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:02 Yeah. Well, that was what got my attention. I was like, wow,
00:11:02 --> 00:11:03 she's really getting into it.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:09 And it was like, I know I've met one of the people that you talked to in the book.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:14 One of the Dahmer ladies. Yeah, Betty or Mrs.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:19 Ellie Dahmer. I wanted, I can't remember which, I might've met both of them
00:11:19 --> 00:11:24 because, you know, when I was, because I spent over half of my life in Mississippi
00:11:24 --> 00:11:28 and during, during, I was real active.
00:11:28 --> 00:11:32 That's where I get my political background from. I served in state legislature
00:11:32 --> 00:11:34 there and ran for the U.S.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 Senate there. So during my time running for the U.S.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:42 Senate, whenever I went to Hattiesburg, I had to go to the Dahmer Church.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:44 So I think I've met, I know I've met both of them.
00:11:45 --> 00:11:49 And then, so yeah, it was just, it was just, and I agree with you about the.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:56 Both and, as far as Mississippi goes. A lot of people have a lot of misconceptions
00:11:56 --> 00:12:02 about Mississippi, but I do tell Mississippi that what you see when you talk about,
00:12:02 --> 00:12:06 oh, what about Biloxi and, you know, the Gulf Coast? I said,
00:12:06 --> 00:12:08 that's our postcard, right?
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 That's what we send out to say, come on in. But if you go north of I-10,
00:12:13 --> 00:12:15 it's like, now that's the real Mississippi.
00:12:15 --> 00:12:24 That's not to say that Biloxi is not real, but when you talk about the cotton and, you know,
00:12:24 --> 00:12:32 the sweet tea and football and all that stuff, the good and the bad, that's north of I-10.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:41 And a lot of people that, you know, were engaged in Mississippi politics were educators.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:47 My political mentor was Henry Kirksey. He worked for the black school district.
00:12:48 --> 00:12:50 He actually ran their printing press.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:55 And then he ended up drawing the maps that gave all those black folks opportunity
00:12:55 --> 00:13:00 to serve in the legislature. I can think of Ms. Pittman, Mr. Cooper.
00:13:00 --> 00:13:05 I just, you know, the young lady that beat me when I tried to go for a third
00:13:05 --> 00:13:07 term. Her dad was Campbell.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:13 They were. So a lot of Mississippi politics is tied into the educators.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it was, it's just, it's fascinating.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:22 So that's why you caught my attention with that.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:25 Why is mentorship powerful?
00:13:26 --> 00:13:33 Oh, gosh. I had never, I've told this story a couple times, I have been a mentor
00:13:33 --> 00:13:35 to many, many of my students.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:41 And I'm so proud that I have been able to be part of their legacy and help shape
00:13:41 --> 00:13:42 their world in some small way.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:49 But I never had a mentor, if we're thinking about outside of family members, growing up in schools.
00:13:49 --> 00:13:55 And I think I always really, really wanted one. And so I met my mentor when
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 I was working on my doctorate at the University of Illinois.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:03 And then I also, you know, started doing these oral history interviews and those
00:14:03 --> 00:14:06 many of those participants became mentors.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:12 And I think they just shape how we look at ourselves.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:17 I think even when we see good in ourselves, mentors hold up that mirror and
00:14:17 --> 00:14:19 help you see the best in yourself.
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 And I think everybody needs that guidance.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:27 Even I think, you know, we kind of sometimes reduce it to like when you're growing up.
00:14:27 --> 00:14:33 No, I think we all need a mentor, someone to say, I can aspire to be this.
00:14:33 --> 00:14:38 And that mentor is there to kind of guide you, you know, as you're learning
00:14:38 --> 00:14:41 and growing, which is ongoing even through adulthood.
00:14:41 --> 00:14:45 So I think mentorship and, you know, I learned that through my interviews was
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 such a formative piece of education during that time.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 You know, there weren't a lot of resources per se, but the resource that was
00:14:55 --> 00:15:00 so rich was the mentorship that came, as you mentioned, from educators,
00:15:00 --> 00:15:02 from community members.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:07 And I think that that's such an important piece of growing and learning,
00:15:07 --> 00:15:12 and especially when you're thinking about working towards changing social conditions
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 and, you know, the global world.
00:15:15 --> 00:15:19 I think you need mentorship to help you navigate all of that.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:22 Now, you said you were a mentor. Did you...
00:15:23 --> 00:15:29 How did that work? Did students come to you or did you kind of pick out some
00:15:29 --> 00:15:33 students and say, let me guide you along the way?
00:15:33 --> 00:15:38 You know, I would say most of the students who needed me found me.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:43 And it was interesting because a lot of times it was the students that I think
00:15:43 --> 00:15:49 other teachers might have type casted as, oh, you know, you're the bad kid.
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 You're the kid that blah, blah, blah. and those are my favorite kids and they
00:15:53 --> 00:15:57 always found me and I always I think did a good job at showing them.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 You are not necessarily what people see on paper.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:05 Because I think I had experienced that in school, right?
00:16:06 --> 00:16:10 On paper, I was one thing. But really, I was just looking for someone to kind
00:16:10 --> 00:16:15 of open that door and say, you know, do all of the things you're capable of doing.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:21 But yeah, I keep in touch with many of my students today. Some of them I've
00:16:21 --> 00:16:25 known for now over 15 years, and I'm so proud of them.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:28 I always say any leadership that I have, I credit to them.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34 Because they were so important in my journey as a teacher and learning with them. Yeah.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:39 I had mentioned Henry Kirksey, so it was kind of the opposite.
00:16:39 --> 00:16:47 He kind of sought me out. It was like me and about three or four other individuals
00:16:47 --> 00:16:50 that he kind of took an interest in.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:54 And you know I'm very
00:16:54 --> 00:16:58 grateful he changed my life path changed a
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 couple of times you know the traditional I was
00:17:00 --> 00:17:05 going to school to go to law school things didn't work out that's a whole 'nother
00:17:05 --> 00:17:10 podcast I could probably do multi-episode on that and then and then I was thinking
00:17:10 --> 00:17:17 about going into the Marine Corps and because he wanted to run for mayor he
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 said I need you to be the campaign manager so that gave me my out,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:22 from going into the Marine Corps.
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 I still probably would have ended up where I am politically,
00:17:26 --> 00:17:33 but it definitely changed the trajectory of where I got elected and how I got elected and all that.
00:17:34 --> 00:17:39 Just amazing. And when I ran, you know, I know you see when people campaign,
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 they say, well, so-and-so endorsed this candidate and so-and-so did.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:48 I had two people endorse me. It was my pastor and Senator Kirksey.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:54 And I got in. So it was, it was pretty cool.
00:17:54 --> 00:17:59 Yeah. That trajectory part, I think you, you, you said it so well,
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 that's that part, right?
00:18:01 --> 00:18:04 I mean, I think any of us who have had a great mentor, we can name the moment
00:18:04 --> 00:18:08 where it shifted our path or our trajectory.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:13 And, ah, I mean that people just don't forget it ever, right?
00:18:13 --> 00:18:17 Like that stays, That's like a lifelong gift.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 And so, yeah. That's exactly right.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:23 All right. So I want you to explain a couple of things. First,
00:18:23 --> 00:18:26 break down the Unhush framework.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:32 Yeah. Before I break it down, so the Unhushed Framework was born out of the
00:18:32 --> 00:18:37 oral history interviews that I did with Hattiesburg educators and also their students, right?
00:18:37 --> 00:18:41 I wanted to hear from the students who were actually in the classrooms of these women.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:48 And as a teacher, I wanted to kind of also figure out what were they doing in
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 their pedagogy, in their curriculum,
00:18:50 --> 00:18:57 in their mobilizing of community that helped students walk out not only affirmed,
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 but, you know, had academic rigor.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 And so I kind of, through my themes of my interviews,
00:19:05 --> 00:19:10 figured out the strands that were throughout and then came up with a framework
00:19:10 --> 00:19:15 to help teachers today who are trying to figure out how do I create culturally
00:19:15 --> 00:19:16 responsive classrooms.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:23 We know that most educators are white women, and so I wanted to figure out what
00:19:23 --> 00:19:28 can I create that serves as a guide to help any educator, really,
00:19:28 --> 00:19:32 who's trying to figure out a blueprint to creating these rich classroom experiences.
00:19:32 --> 00:19:35 So the Unhushed framework was born out of that.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:39 And the title Unhushed is really to remind us.
00:19:39 --> 00:19:44 And as one of my participants and I talked about this idea of being hushed and Dr.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:48 Joyce Ladner talked about how her generation, which she calls the Emmett Till
00:19:48 --> 00:19:52 generation, was never hushed because there wasn't an option.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:57 Right. It was a matter of hearing that clarion call and making sure that things
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59 like Emmett Till's murder never happened again.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:03 So there was fear, but there was never a, I'm going to be silent.
00:20:04 --> 00:20:08 And I thought that was really important. So that's what that word reminds us
00:20:08 --> 00:20:12 of, right, that we always have to use our voices and advocate for change.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 So the U stands for uniting for collective effort. As we know,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 that was so important in SNCC, in the March on Washington.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 All of things that happened throughout the movement in that era were done collectively.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:31 The N is being able to kind of name our positionality, understand our lens,
00:20:31 --> 00:20:37 what misinformation we come with, what bias, what experiences we walk into spaces with.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:44 The H is for understanding that histories are, all histories are valuable and
00:20:44 --> 00:20:47 especially making sure that we're illuminating underrepresented histories.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:52 That U piece is for unlearning. I think as educators and people,
00:20:52 --> 00:20:57 we have a job to make sure that we are always doing the work of unlearning and
00:20:57 --> 00:21:01 relearning through reflection, through education, whatever it may be.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:06 The S is for stories, because I think stories is really one of those things that can unite us.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:11 It's also what prevents erasure and helps make sure that future generations
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 have this history and information.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:17 And so I think those components oh
00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 and the H is for healing because ultimately we all
00:21:20 --> 00:21:22 want to be working towards this idea of
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 healing collectively and individually which we know
00:21:25 --> 00:21:30 is an ongoing process and so those principles if you're thinking about as a
00:21:30 --> 00:21:36 teacher for example bringing in a new text or designing a lesson plan for your
00:21:36 --> 00:21:43 classroom those components if they're present really kind of give you a marker to say, okay,
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 I at least have the beginning foundations.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:53 Of curricula or a text that's going to be enriching for my students and help
00:21:53 --> 00:21:58 to build what we would want, which is a culturally responsive learning space. Okay.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 I'm going to rephrase the question. I was going to do this question,
00:22:03 --> 00:22:09 a certain way, but I'm going to do it different because it was like the second
00:22:09 --> 00:22:14 thing I wanted to explain was the six lessons from the past.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:20 So let me, let me make it out of community, civic engagement,
00:22:20 --> 00:22:24 creativity, mentoring, the whole child and lifelong learning.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:30 Which one do you, do you think is the most important?
00:22:30 --> 00:22:35 Cause I, you've listed them all. so they have their place. But which one do
00:22:35 --> 00:22:38 you kind of like get into more?
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 Oh, that's so hard. I would say...
00:22:42 --> 00:22:49 Lifelong learning is probably one of those that it would be one of my top two that if I had to pick.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:56 I think one of the stories that really just struck me was how many of my participants
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 talked about continuing their education.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:05 And when we think about doing this during segregated Jim Crow, I just was like, wow.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09 And I'm complaining about, you know, student loans, but wow.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 My mother would talk about how my grandmother in the summers,
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 you know, would leave, even though there was a college right there,
00:23:18 --> 00:23:24 right down the road. she would have to leave the state and go elsewhere to continue her education.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:31 So that dedication to continuously perfecting craft, to expanding knowledge.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:36 I just was like, that's such an important thing that has been fought for.
00:23:37 --> 00:23:42 We don't even sometimes realize that. But most of the women that I interviewed
00:23:42 --> 00:23:43 all had master's degrees.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:46 And that was just like, wow. Wow.
00:23:46 --> 00:23:52 Because I think sometimes, especially, you know, Eurocentric history books and
00:23:52 --> 00:24:00 courses in elementary, middle school, high school, they frame this narrative that, you know,
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 education in the Black community is not valued.
00:24:03 --> 00:24:05 And it's so false.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:11 And so to hear these women talk about making sure that they were continuing
00:24:11 --> 00:24:18 their education, you know, there weren't scholarships and grants and things like that happening.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:24 So this was a financial burden. It was, you know, it involved traveling.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:29 I mean, just all of the things. And so that, I think, struck me as like, wow.
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 When we say lifelong learning, it took on a whole new meaning.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:40 You know, you touched on something when you said the stereotype is that the
00:24:40 --> 00:24:42 Black community doesn't value education.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:47 I, first of all, I just, you know, I agree with you.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:53 That's totally ludicrous because it was like that was the thing that was always
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 stressed. My mom was an educator.
00:24:55 --> 00:25:00 My dad was like a math major and all this stuff. And he he couldn't understand
00:25:00 --> 00:25:02 why I didn't understand math. Right.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:06 And I mean, you know, but there was like it was understood.
00:25:06 --> 00:25:09 You're going to college. You know what I'm saying? We went to college.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:11 You go into college, you know, that's right.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:15 And and and, you know, for some of my classmates or whatever,
00:25:16 --> 00:25:18 they were going to be the first ones to go. Right.
00:25:19 --> 00:25:22 And so, you know, it was just, it was just important.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:30 And, you know, but I think if we get into it a little more, it's like when we
00:25:30 --> 00:25:35 looked at education, you and I, you're younger than me, but, you know.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:42 We come basically from the same background where it's like education equated freedom.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:55 And, you know, maybe there's the generations after us look at education as money, right, as status.
00:25:56 --> 00:26:00 Yeah. And it's not so they don't value it the same way, but it's still valued
00:26:00 --> 00:26:06 because they're looking for a way out from where they are or a step up.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:12 But it may be how the degree or the type of value we put on education might be different.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:18 But it's a total misnomer to say that that that black folks don't value education.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:23 Yeah, I think, you know, discovering the work of Vanessa Siddle Walker,
00:26:24 --> 00:26:28 who, and people like Gloria Ladson-Billings, but Vanessa Siddle Walker,
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 I leaned on heavily for my research, Dr.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:37 Chris Spann's book, From Cottonfield to Schoolhouse, and all of that history
00:26:37 --> 00:26:45 tells us the exact opposite of what oftentimes our false history books in schools tell.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:51 And so, you know, part of my goal in documenting this is I want to make sure
00:26:51 --> 00:26:59 that people and readers and specifically I think about my students and my own children,
00:26:59 --> 00:27:03 I want them to know the names and the stories and the history correctly.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:09 And I think what's so beautiful about Mississippi history is it illustrates
00:27:09 --> 00:27:16 how everyday people from maybe circumstances that are less than ideal can do
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 these incredible things.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:24 And so that, I mean, that's just such a beautiful part of our history that I think is skipped over.
00:27:25 --> 00:27:29 And so my goal, I remember when I first said to my participant,
00:27:29 --> 00:27:33 Charles Cooper, who really has been become like a father figure to me.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:39 And I said, I am going to make sure that these histories are recorded because I just was so...
00:27:40 --> 00:27:47 Honored and proud to hear all of the many things that they were able to do.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:53 And, you know, he talks about so often that it's also a misnomer that segregated
00:27:53 --> 00:27:57 communities were these terrible, horrible things.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 And, you know, he said, when I was growing up, like, we had Black businesses
00:28:01 --> 00:28:06 and Black dentists and doctors. And, you know, you'd look at Mobile Street,
00:28:06 --> 00:28:09 and it would be lined with, you know, Black professionals.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:15 And he said, I wanted to be a teacher because I had teachers who were mentors
00:28:15 --> 00:28:19 and, you know, incredibly dedicated to the craft.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:24 And so, you know, he said, I wish that my children could have experienced actually
00:28:24 --> 00:28:28 what it would have been like what I had being in Black spaces.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:33 So I thought that narrative was also very important to make sure that people
00:28:33 --> 00:28:38 understood, yes, there was the realities of Jim Crow and of violence,
00:28:38 --> 00:28:43 but the both and peace comes in and Black communities did well.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:50 And most of my participants talked about how that shifted after desegregation.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 And it was an unfortunate shift. Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:55 --> 00:28:59 How do those principles or frameworks help leverage artificial intelligence?
00:29:00 --> 00:29:06 Oh, goodness. You mean bring about the book, that book? Yeah.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:10 Because I think AI is here. And I know,
00:29:11 --> 00:29:17 you know, as an English teacher by trade, I've had the same probably concerns
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 as many of us, which is like, what is this going to do to our students'
00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 ability to analyze, to write, to think?
00:29:25 --> 00:29:31 But I think, and I say it in the AI book, teachers have gone through,
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 you know, learning how to deal with smart boards,
00:29:35 --> 00:29:40 the, you know, the World Wide Web being introduced, overhead projectors.
00:29:40 --> 00:29:45 I mean, I think one of the things that good teachers do well is we know how
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 to pivot and we know how to...
00:29:49 --> 00:29:55 Use tools in the way that they're meant to be used and keep learning human-centered.
00:29:55 --> 00:30:01 And so I'm like, there are some great tools. There are some great AI tools for ELL learners.
00:30:01 --> 00:30:06 There are some worthwhile things that I think if we use them responsibly and
00:30:06 --> 00:30:14 we teach our students how to use them and also teach our students about the harms of AI,
00:30:14 --> 00:30:18 that would make for some really interesting, you know, Socratic seminars and
00:30:18 --> 00:30:22 discussions because AI, it's a trip, right?
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 I mean, we know it is not equitable.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:30 It has racial bias, all of which comes from humans, you know?
00:30:30 --> 00:30:35 So like what I just think about, like my high school kids would have loved debating
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 that or talking about that and looking at those tools.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:43 So I think there are tools out there that are worthwhile,
00:30:43 --> 00:30:48 but we have to make sure that really what we're doing when we work with our
00:30:48 --> 00:30:56 students is we are co-creating with them and we are modeling how to responsibly use these tools.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 And like I said, making sure that we're analyzing and we're looking at both
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 the benefits and the harms. I think that piece is really important,
00:31:03 --> 00:31:09 but it's not going away. So we've got to find a way to kind of grapple with it. Yeah.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:12 Yeah. It's, it's, it's really, really interesting. I, you know,
00:31:13 --> 00:31:17 I just remind people when, when I, when I talk about it, that,
00:31:17 --> 00:31:21 you know, it's getting his information from us.
00:31:22 --> 00:31:28 That's right. So if you take away the human element, then AI is not worth anything
00:31:28 --> 00:31:32 because it's not going to get its source. So we've always got to be creative.
00:31:32 --> 00:31:39 We've always got to push the norm. so that way AI can catch up with us.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:41 You know, I think a lot of people...
00:31:42 --> 00:31:45 Gotten to this point where we're surrendering to AI. I don't know.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:53 But I just wanted to, since you wrote a book about that, I just wanted to tap into that a little bit.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:57 Yeah. I really, we wrote that book, my coauthor, Brittany Collins,
00:31:57 --> 00:32:00 and I really wrote it because we were like, you know, at the same point,
00:32:00 --> 00:32:04 I think all of us have been at, which is like, what are we, what are we going to do with this?
00:32:04 --> 00:32:09 And so it was really kind of a great way for us to explore how to do it in a
00:32:09 --> 00:32:14 way that would benefit and not harm students. Yeah.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:20 I was just trying to visualize how the people that you did the research with
00:32:20 --> 00:32:22 would have dealt with that.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:25 Yeah. Right?
00:32:27 --> 00:32:31 That's a really good question. And actually, that's a question I think they
00:32:31 --> 00:32:35 would say, you know, this is when we have to teach history and this is why history
00:32:35 --> 00:32:40 is so important because some of these sites, there's a magic school,
00:32:40 --> 00:32:45 I think it is, and you can say, like, give me a lesson about the civil rights
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 movement, and it'll give you one in 10 seconds. It's pretty frightening.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:55 So where, you know, reading and understanding true history comes in is if you
00:32:55 --> 00:32:59 would read through this lesson that it spits out, you could identify,
00:32:59 --> 00:33:06 oh, this person was not in the movement or this person who should not be absent isn't here.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:11 So yeah, I think there's some great ways to teach students how to do deeper
00:33:11 --> 00:33:13 analysis and ask better questions.
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 But we just have to be willing to kind of, I think that's where our own learning
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 comes in, right? You ask me, what's the most important?
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 I mean, lifelong learning, things change and shift every day.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:31 And so as educators, I don't think we're ever finished with expanding our knowledge and craft. Yeah.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:36 You write your books to improve the pedagogy of school in schools,
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 especially those in the black community.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:43 Can you apply the knowledge you impart into politics and how?
00:33:44 --> 00:33:51 Mm, and to politics. I mean, I think education is political.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:57 It's always been political in the sense that we know education was not created
00:33:57 --> 00:33:59 for Black and brown folks, right?
00:34:00 --> 00:34:07 Not with us in mind. And so when I think about, like, Liberatore education,
00:34:07 --> 00:34:14 I think that is an act of resistance. So I think that makes it political.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:22 And I don't know, other than to just teach bravely, I've had teachers say like,
00:34:22 --> 00:34:27 well, I don't want to get, you know, fired. I don't want to get in trouble. So how do I do this?
00:34:27 --> 00:34:32 And I just, I mean, that was never a question for me, right?
00:34:32 --> 00:34:38 As an educator, I always knew that information and students and families were number one.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 So I think it's political in the sense that now it is, especially now,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:49 it is asking teachers, and that includes, you know, our majority of white teachers
00:34:49 --> 00:34:54 to unhush, to teach bravely,
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57 to sometimes challenge curriculum and policies.
00:34:58 --> 00:35:01 And all of those things are political. Yeah.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 I, you know, when I was thinking of this, when I was writing this question down,
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 I was thinking about an experience I had.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 I was teaching at Piney Woods Country Life School.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:17 And, you know, the normal curriculum is like Martin Luther King,
00:35:17 --> 00:35:19 I have a dream, all this stuff, right? Yeah.
00:35:20 --> 00:35:26 And so and for some reason, the the principal of the elementary school came
00:35:26 --> 00:35:31 in when I was teaching and I wasn't talking about I have a dream.
00:35:31 --> 00:35:34 I was talking about Operation Breadbasket.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:40 And the founding of the SCLC and, you know, Dr. King had pivoted to Chicago
00:35:40 --> 00:35:41 and all that kind of stuff.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:47 And he pulled me to the side afterwards. He said, yeah, Mr.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 Fleming, that's not in the curriculum. It's like, why are you doing that?
00:35:50 --> 00:35:53 And I said, because this is a black school.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:57 If I was at a white school, I know I'd be pushing the limit.
00:35:57 --> 00:36:06 But here, it's like the fact that this school exists is against the norm,
00:36:06 --> 00:36:09 right? The oldest black boarding school in America.
00:36:09 --> 00:36:15 And I said, if you got a problem with me expanding the lesson, right?
00:36:15 --> 00:36:20 They know that I have a dream speech. They could all probably do it at the auditorium.
00:36:20 --> 00:36:21 You know what I'm saying? Right.
00:36:21 --> 00:36:26 But it's like, it's not about that. And you know that because you lived through that.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:29 And he just kind of said, well, Mr. Fleming, you know, just in case.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:34 I said, okay, well, just in case, tell him to come talk to me.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:39 And, you know, but there wasn't any feedback, you know, negative feedback off that.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:43 But I just thought about that when you were talking about, you know,
00:36:44 --> 00:36:45 being brave in teaching.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 And I think that, first of all, I have a high regard for educators.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 I have a high regard for historians and all that. And I just, I don't understand why.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 Why people are afraid to do with, and I'm also a Christian.
00:37:01 --> 00:37:09 So part of my faith is understanding that enlightenment is what we're trying to get to, right?
00:37:09 --> 00:37:12 We need to know as much as we can, right?
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 That all that's on the earth, if we're supposed to have, quote unquote,
00:37:16 --> 00:37:20 dominion, then we need to know we're overseeing, right?
00:37:20 --> 00:37:24 And so I just never understood the fear that comes with education,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:29 with the, you know, the pressure that, but a lot of that is political.
00:37:29 --> 00:37:34 And we definitely are seeing that now in this, in this political climate.
00:37:34 --> 00:37:37 All right. So let me close out with these two, because this was,
00:37:38 --> 00:37:42 it's kind of a theme and, you know, the other guests I might have on,
00:37:42 --> 00:37:43 I might ask them the same questions.
00:37:44 --> 00:37:51 Do you want things for black folks to be better, easier, or more impactful?
00:37:52 --> 00:37:58 Oh, ask it one more time. Do you want things for Black folks to be better,
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 easier, or more impactful?
00:38:04 --> 00:38:11 I would say more impactful because I think more impactful embodies that better piece.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:17 And I don't think we've ever had it easier. And I think that we've been okay
00:38:17 --> 00:38:18 with not having it easier.
00:38:19 --> 00:38:23 So to me, it's like, oh, skip that one. The more impactful piece,
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 I think, is the one that resonates with me.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:30 I want things to be more impactful. Now, I disagree with you,
00:38:31 --> 00:38:34 but it's not a gotcha kind of
00:38:34 --> 00:38:40 question. It's just, see, I'm the one that wants it to be easier, right?
00:38:40 --> 00:38:44 For that very point you mentioned, that it hasn't been easy for us.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:48 See, because to me, impactful, you know, if somebody asked me the question,
00:38:49 --> 00:38:53 I'd say impactful, you know, what's going on now is impacting me,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:54 right? In a negative sense.
00:38:55 --> 00:38:59 So I don't know, impact could be good or bad. Right.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:06 Better is like I've got it better now than my parents had because I have a little
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 more access. I got this nice little phone where I can talk to you.
00:39:10 --> 00:39:14 You know, I got these computers, all this kind of stuff. They didn't have all that. Right.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:19 And so that's better. But to me, easier because it's like.
00:39:20 --> 00:39:28 Whenever we get to a point where you just say, I want society to be like sports, right?
00:39:28 --> 00:39:35 It's like, I'm a big sports fan and Chicago fan at that.
00:39:35 --> 00:39:42 And so it's like all Chicago ever wanted was a quarterback for the Bears.
00:39:44 --> 00:39:48 Just play the game at a high level, right? It didn't matter if he's black,
00:39:48 --> 00:39:50 white, Native American, Latino.
00:39:50 --> 00:39:57 It don't matter. You can throw that ball to the receivers when we need it to win the game for us.
00:39:57 --> 00:40:02 That's all that matters. And the Bears have had their share of different type of quarterbacks.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:08 So it's like, but that's the standard. The standard is not what you look like.
00:40:08 --> 00:40:13 The standard is not where you came from. The standard is, can you play at that high level?
00:40:14 --> 00:40:19 And we're going to give you the tools to do what you need to do.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21 You're going to have a coach. You're going to have a playbook.
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23 You're going to have a football.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:25 You're going to have the right equipment. You're going to have a trainer.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:29 You're going to have all the things, right, to be successful.
00:40:30 --> 00:40:34 We just want to see what you can do with all of that.
00:40:34 --> 00:40:41 And my thing is that if society was like that, Black folks would be way better
00:40:41 --> 00:40:45 off. So that's why I tend to go with easier.
00:40:45 --> 00:40:47 But, you know, like I said, it's not a gotcha question.
00:40:47 --> 00:40:52 No, no, no. It's just to kind of pick a brain and see where people are.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 That's a great question. I think when I hear the word easier...
00:40:57 --> 00:41:03 I am like with it because I think sometimes there's like a dumbing down,
00:41:03 --> 00:41:07 you know, I remember my son was in the NICU for many, many, many months.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 And literally every day, a nurse or a doctor would say to my husband and I,
00:41:13 --> 00:41:15 you all are so articulate.
00:41:16 --> 00:41:20 And my husband's very calm. But at one point he was like, you know,
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 we're both educated, right? I mean, like, why do we keep saying this.
00:41:24 --> 00:41:29 And so I think when I hear easier, I think of the dumbing down and the,
00:41:29 --> 00:41:33 and the surprised reaction that people have when they're like,
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 oh, you know, you have a doctorate or you're blah, blah, blah.
00:41:36 --> 00:41:40 Some of my participants even talked about, you know, never being really acknowledged
00:41:40 --> 00:41:46 for their accolades and, and intellect and education.
00:41:46 --> 00:41:51 And so I'm like, when I hear easier, I think about, I think I thought about that.
00:41:51 --> 00:41:53 And so it was like, oh, No, we don't want easier.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 Right. We don't want a dummy. We don't want the dumbing down or the,
00:41:57 --> 00:42:00 hey, you know, I think sometimes in classrooms. Right.
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 We think we don't need it to be rigorous for these kids.
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 And so, yeah, that word for me, I'm like, but you're right.
00:42:09 --> 00:42:12 Yeah. I your perspective is good. Yeah.
00:42:12 --> 00:42:15 You know, when you said articulate, it was like in the South,
00:42:15 --> 00:42:17 they say, you're so well spoken.
00:42:18 --> 00:42:23 That's what they hit you with. All right. All right. My final closing question.
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27 Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
00:42:28 --> 00:42:35 Of young generations. I have hope because I think about my students.
00:42:35 --> 00:42:40 I think about some of the pre-service teachers that I've been lucky enough to mentor.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:50 And they are, I feel like, determined to make our world more just and equitable.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:53 And so I have hope because of them.
00:42:54 --> 00:42:59 So, Dr. Marlee Bunch, how can people get in touch with you? How can people get
00:42:59 --> 00:43:00 your books, all that stuff?
00:43:01 --> 00:43:06 Thank you for asking that. Yes, they can order Unlearning the Hush or The Magnitude
00:43:06 --> 00:43:12 of Us on Amazon.com, or you can get them from the University of Illinois Press
00:43:12 --> 00:43:13 where Unlearning the Hush is.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:20 Magnitude of Us is Teachers College Press. Instagram is at Unlearning the Hush.
00:43:20 --> 00:43:25 And you can reach out to me also on my website, which is marleybunch.com.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:31 Well, Dr. Marley Bunch, I greatly appreciate you coming on during this holiday season.
00:43:31 --> 00:43:37 I really enjoyed the conversation. And the rule is now that since you have been
00:43:37 --> 00:43:39 on the show, you have an open invitation to come back.
00:43:40 --> 00:43:44 Yay. Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. You don't even have to wait for me
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47 to ask. You say, Erik, I need to talk about something. We'll get you on a microphone.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:51 I appreciate you. So, again, thank you for doing this.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:55 Thank you, sir. Appreciate you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on.
00:44:15 --> 00:44:21 All right, and we are back. And so it is time for my next guest, Dr. Patrice Fenton.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:28 Dr. Patrice E. Fenton is co-founder and head of organizational well-being at
00:44:28 --> 00:44:29 the Ella Baker Institute.
00:44:29 --> 00:44:35 She is a proud mom of three, Brooklyn, New York native, and former NYC Department
00:44:35 --> 00:44:39 of Education middle school special educator. Dr.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:45 Fenton has cultivated an expertise as an equity-centered strategist with a passion
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 for leadership development, teacher education, and generating collective wellness,
00:44:50 --> 00:44:51 particularly in Black communities.
00:44:52 --> 00:44:57 She is a highly skilled facilitator and has deep experience in leadership and
00:44:57 --> 00:45:01 organizational development, as well as measurement and evaluation,
00:45:02 --> 00:45:07 particularly regarding impact in Black and Brown communities. Dr.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:11 Fenton is the former Director of Leader Support and Development at EDLOC,
00:45:12 --> 00:45:17 a nonprofit professional network organization of over 1 education leaders
00:45:17 --> 00:45:19 of color across 30-plus states.
00:45:19 --> 00:45:27 She also served as the first associate director of the mayoral initiative NYC
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 Men Teach at the City University of New York,
00:45:30 --> 00:45:37 as well as an adjunct assistant professor in the Department of Special Education at Hunter College.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:43 Dr. Fenton has co-authored a book set for release in March 2026 entitled The
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45 Promise of Collective Leadership.
00:45:45 --> 00:45:51 She is also co-host of the Educate U.S. podcast, along with her co-author, Dr.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:55 Stacey Schultz. She holds four degrees, including a Ph.D.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 In teaching and learning with a concentration in special education from the
00:46:00 --> 00:46:05 University of Miami and a bachelor's in business administration from Temple University.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:10 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:46:10 --> 00:46:13 on this podcast, Dr. Patrice Fenton.
00:46:24 --> 00:46:29 All right. Dr. Patrice Fenton, how are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:46:30 --> 00:46:33 I'm well. I really, really am very grateful. I stay in gratitude.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:38 Well, happy holidays to you. It's good to see you.
00:46:39 --> 00:46:43 I had the privilege of being on your podcast, you and Dr. Schultz.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:50 And so now both of you all have been on my podcast. So it's been a good thing.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:59 But I definitely wanted to get you on because you are doing some incredible
00:46:59 --> 00:47:02 work and I wanted to highlight it,
00:47:02 --> 00:47:07 especially the name of the organization you work for.
00:47:07 --> 00:47:09 And I want to get into that a little bit.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:14 So before we get started on the interview part, I do a couple of icebreakers.
00:47:15 --> 00:47:20 Okay. So the first icebreaker is a quote, and your quote is,
00:47:20 --> 00:47:26 if I fall, I'll fall five feet, four inches forward in the fight for freedom.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 What does that quote mean to you? Ha, ha, ha, ha.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:40 It means being willing to submit oneself to the mission and cause of one's work,
00:47:41 --> 00:47:44 the calling and mission and cause of one's work, the purpose,
00:47:45 --> 00:47:50 being willing to give one's all to what you're doing.
00:47:50 --> 00:47:58 I, it calls to mind the, the energy and the spirit of servant leadership,
00:47:58 --> 00:48:04 essentially, which is what I consider myself and the folks that I lock arms
00:48:04 --> 00:48:11 with consider themselves and, and, and why we, our organization carries the name that it does.
00:48:12 --> 00:48:19 Yeah. All right. And now the, the second icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay.
00:48:19 --> 00:48:22 Give me a number between 1 and
00:48:22 --> 00:48:26 20. I'm going to go with 6. It's the first number I came about. All right.
00:48:26 --> 00:48:32 What do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration did?
00:48:33 --> 00:48:39 Oh, okay. I'm going to go with the, you said current or previous,
00:48:39 --> 00:48:41 so I'm going to go with current. No, no, no.
00:48:41 --> 00:48:47 No, the option is what do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration?
00:48:48 --> 00:48:51 Previous. Okay. I thought you gave me an option of current or previous.
00:48:51 --> 00:48:54 Okay. the previous administration did.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:03 Let's see. Well, if I'm being honest,
00:49:05 --> 00:49:11 this is not the first thing that comes to mind, honestly, and this is like, it connects to my work.
00:49:11 --> 00:49:14 It's not necessarily what the administration did.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:17 So I'm going to kind of like deviate a little bit from your question,
00:49:17 --> 00:49:19 is more so what the party did.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:26 But in my opinion, putting someone in office who is, I'll say,
00:49:27 --> 00:49:33 as advanced in age as our former last president was, I think is a mistake.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:39 And I don't say that from a space of being ageist. I say it from a space of
00:49:39 --> 00:49:48 really understanding that the promise, the hope, the purpose of tomorrow is for our young people.
00:49:49 --> 00:49:53 And so I think along with that, not.
00:49:55 --> 00:50:04 Not prioritizing, not centering, not positioning young people to be at the helm
00:50:04 --> 00:50:09 of change in this country is one of the worst things that we could do.
00:50:10 --> 00:50:14 There was not enough, you know, I'm a former educator, forever learner.
00:50:14 --> 00:50:17 So I come from the perspective of having been in the classroom,
00:50:17 --> 00:50:25 also a parent. I have a 21-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a one-year-old.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:34 So a full spectrum of young people who I'm blessed to steward in this life.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:40 So my perspective has been and always will be that young people are the ones,
00:50:41 --> 00:50:45 one, they're the ones that inherit everything, but that they know best.
00:50:45 --> 00:50:50 And so I just did not see enough done to secure, to advance,
00:50:51 --> 00:50:54 to improve education in this country.
00:50:55 --> 00:50:57 And that's just not the previous administration.
00:50:57 --> 00:51:00 That's pretty much every administration, if I'm being honest.
00:51:01 --> 00:51:08 So that's one. Connected to that is, you know, what happens in our schools.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:14 Specifically, largely, and then more specifically, what happens with our teachers. So...
00:51:16 --> 00:51:25 Not enough done to honor the work and effort that goes into what I consider
00:51:25 --> 00:51:28 one of the noblest professions that one could take on.
00:51:28 --> 00:51:35 I mean, Stacey and I talk about this quite often, as do my comrades at the Ella Baker Institute.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:40 You know, the fact that every person, school is compulsory in this country,
00:51:40 --> 00:51:41 so every person has to go through it.
00:51:42 --> 00:51:46 So it's a prime place really to support what happens to us, you know,
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 at the local level and at the state national level.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:58 And they just, we haven't really seen the type of attention toward the education
00:51:58 --> 00:52:00 sector that is required.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:06 And I think necessary to advance this country in a way, in ways that are truly
00:52:06 --> 00:52:07 progressive and transformative.
00:52:08 --> 00:52:14 Yeah. So I don't know if you follow sports or anything, but there was something
00:52:14 --> 00:52:19 that happened recently in sports that reminds me of what you talked about with
00:52:19 --> 00:52:21 the 20 presidential election.
00:52:21 --> 00:52:26 The Indianapolis Colts lost their starting quarterback. Their backup quarterback
00:52:26 --> 00:52:27 was already out with an injury.
00:52:28 --> 00:52:35 So they went and got a guy who had played, who was literally eligible for the Hall of Fame this year.
00:52:36 --> 00:52:39 Got him from coaching a high school team.
00:52:39 --> 00:52:45 And he just, he played last night. He played the last two games.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:51 And so I was just thinking about when you were talking about President Biden,
00:52:51 --> 00:52:57 and it's just kind of like the Democratic Party was just like the Indianapolis Colts.
00:52:57 --> 00:53:02 They didn't see any other option better or was ready to step in at that point
00:53:02 --> 00:53:05 and felt he was the best option.
00:53:05 --> 00:53:10 And I agree with you. That's not ideal.
00:53:10 --> 00:53:16 You know, if the Joe Biden of 1988 or the Joe Biden of heck,
00:53:16 --> 00:53:21 Joe Biden of 2000 or 2008 was the option.
00:53:21 --> 00:53:28 OK, but, you know, 2020 Joe Biden was not the same, especially when it got down to 2024.
00:53:29 --> 00:53:36 But he was still he was better than the alternative, but he wasn't the best option.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:38 And that you will.
00:53:39 --> 00:53:45 I don't. The only thing that's different, I think, in the sports analogy and
00:53:45 --> 00:53:50 a political analogy is that I don't think it's stunted the growth of the party.
00:53:51 --> 00:53:58 Or stunted the politics, progressive politics, because it gave, I think, time for.
00:53:59 --> 00:54:04 Some of the people that we would want to lift up sometime to get some more experience,
00:54:04 --> 00:54:10 get out there on the national stage a little more without the pressure of being president.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:17 And by 2028, you know, we'll, we'll have a heck of a draft class.
00:54:20 --> 00:54:24 That's a good, that's a good silver lining to look forward to.
00:54:24 --> 00:54:30 That is true. Yeah. All right. So how did Dr. Patrice Fenton come to be?
00:54:32 --> 00:54:35 That is a that's a powerful question. I appreciate that.
00:54:36 --> 00:54:40 A few things come to mind when I hear the question posed in that way.
00:54:40 --> 00:54:45 One, I think of Brooklyn, where I'm born and raised.
00:54:45 --> 00:54:50 I am a very proud Brooklynite, Brooklyn, New York. Like Brooklyn,
00:54:50 --> 00:54:53 I would say, you know, my parents, my grandparents, aunts, uncles,
00:54:53 --> 00:54:59 they all poured into me tremendously to make me the woman that I am today.
00:55:00 --> 00:55:03 Brooklyn is also on that list for me.
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 Brooklyn really is a true, they call New York City a melting pot.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:14 And I'm not really, I question how much we really are and or were because,
00:55:14 --> 00:55:18 you know, Brooklyn, I like to say, is more like a quilt.
00:55:18 --> 00:55:24 So there are different cultures and ethnicities that co-mingle.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:29 They also like hold down their own separate spaces if
00:55:29 --> 00:55:32 we're being honest they don't necessarily melt as much as we might
00:55:32 --> 00:55:35 like to think that they do however proximity is
00:55:35 --> 00:55:40 a thing so we get to experience each other and I think that is the the magic
00:55:40 --> 00:55:45 of Brooklyn so there's just so much it's just so rich you know one of my favorite
00:55:45 --> 00:55:49 things people go on vacation all kinds of places all over the world I contend
00:55:49 --> 00:55:52 that Brooklyn is like one of the best places to be in the summer is You just
00:55:52 --> 00:55:53 walk down the street and you just,
00:55:53 --> 00:55:56 you never know what you're going to run into.
00:55:56 --> 00:56:00 It could be an old friend, a fair, a new restaurant, a festival,
00:56:00 --> 00:56:04 a random concert, right? Like it's just so rich.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:10 So that is an indelible part of the fabric of who I am.
00:56:10 --> 00:56:14 And it informs the lens that I have on the world.
00:56:15 --> 00:56:19 So my idea of community is very much like that.
00:56:19 --> 00:56:22 It makes space for it's inclusive
00:56:22 --> 00:56:26 you know this is one of those buzzwords today but it
00:56:26 --> 00:56:34 really is a part of how I see the world because of where I was raised so that
00:56:34 --> 00:56:39 is a that is a huge part of how I and how I came to be the other thing that
00:56:39 --> 00:56:43 comes up for me is my grandmother I talk a lot about her.
00:56:43 --> 00:56:50 She passed in 2020, not from COVID, but she was just a really incredible.
00:56:52 --> 00:56:57 Connector, I would say. And so my idea of community, which drives what I do
00:56:57 --> 00:57:02 today, I didn't realize it until I started doing this work that it comes from her.
00:57:02 --> 00:57:08 She was a home-based child care provider and lived across the street for a good
00:57:08 --> 00:57:12 portion of her life from an elementary school, also a school which I attended.
00:57:13 --> 00:57:19 Before that, she lived in Bed-Stuy and she was just always that person in her
00:57:19 --> 00:57:24 neighborhood, wherever she lived, that pretty much anyone that was in her radius could rely on.
00:57:24 --> 00:57:27 So I tell this story, like if you need, you live downstairs,
00:57:28 --> 00:57:33 you needed a cup of sugar, you needed to borrow $5, go to the corner store.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:37 You needed to come over because, you know, your son is locked up and he has
00:57:37 --> 00:57:39 to make a collect call. You can't receive them.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:42 She would say, oh, come over. Let me know what time he's calling.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:47 I'll make sure no one else's, you know, she was just really that person in the
00:57:47 --> 00:57:50 neighborhood for a lot of people.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:57 And so I didn't realize it until very recently that I patterned a lot of my
00:57:57 --> 00:57:59 work, a lot of my leadership after her.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:07 It wasn't a conscious decision, but by, again, proximity and also by observation
00:58:07 --> 00:58:09 and just in part being raised by her,
00:58:10 --> 00:58:16 you know, alongside my parents, it just became a part of who I am and how I show up.
00:58:16 --> 00:58:21 So I would be remiss if I didn't name Elizabeth Butler as a huge part of how
00:58:21 --> 00:58:23 I came to be as well. Yeah.
00:58:24 --> 00:58:29 So another lady that seems to have had an impact in your life is Ella Baker.
00:58:30 --> 00:58:34 And you are the leader of the Ella Baker Institute.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:40 So for the listeners, tell us who Ella Baker was.
00:58:41 --> 00:58:45 So Ella Baker, I say, I like to say that I had two EBs in my life.
00:58:46 --> 00:58:50 So my grandmother, Elizabeth Butler, and then the other EB, Ella Baker.
00:58:50 --> 00:58:56 Ella Baker is essentially responsible for all the prominent names in the civil
00:58:56 --> 00:59:01 rights movement that we know so well. You're Martin Luther King, you're Rosa Parks.
00:59:01 --> 00:59:07 She was the force behind those major names. She was an indelible and a remarkable
00:59:07 --> 00:59:10 community organizer during that time. Yeah.
00:59:10 --> 00:59:17 Essentially saw leadership as something that everybody was endowed with.
00:59:17 --> 00:59:23 And so she was very against this idea of having one charismatic leader out front
00:59:23 --> 00:59:26 in the spirit of your Martin Luther Kings, right?
00:59:26 --> 00:59:32 So he came to be, because of a lot of different things, a hodgepodge of factors,
00:59:33 --> 00:59:34 right, of which she played a part.
00:59:35 --> 00:59:41 She was a huge part in how he became to be a central figure in But she contended
00:59:41 --> 00:59:45 that it's not necessary for the type of change that we want to see in our communities.
00:59:46 --> 00:59:52 In fact, it's very opposite. Her thinking was that the people themselves can lead themselves.
00:59:53 --> 00:59:57 They know best what their conditions are. They know best what kinds of changes need to be made.
00:59:57 --> 01:00:02 And so her work was really centered around positioning folks in community to
01:00:02 --> 01:00:07 be the levers of change for themselves, to not wait on anyone to come along
01:00:07 --> 01:00:09 and save them, but to do it for themselves.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:18 She, in addition to that, she really highlighted and dedicated herself to the
01:00:18 --> 01:00:20 notion of youth leadership.
01:00:20 --> 01:00:27 So we talk about SNCC and all these other prominent organizations but very particularly
01:00:27 --> 01:00:34 SNCC she was a big force behind all of the young people that came up through that organization.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:41 And and really a huge part if not the one of the biggest depending on who you
01:00:41 --> 01:00:47 talk to of the the change that we were able to see as a result of all the freedom
01:00:47 --> 01:00:48 fighters during that time period.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:54 So she's just one of those immense figures that did not care to be celebrated
01:00:54 --> 01:00:58 because the work and the people were paramount to her.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:04 And so we decided to take on the name both to honor and honor of just because
01:01:04 --> 01:01:10 we are folks who honor our ancestors, but also because not in defiance of what
01:01:10 --> 01:01:14 she stood for, but in celebration of what she stood for.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:18 She did not want to be, I'm sure it is a part of her ethos where she would not
01:01:18 --> 01:01:23 want to be the namesake of an organization.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:26 That's just who she was for her entire career, for her entire life.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:33 But we hold up her name because not many people know about her and also because
01:01:33 --> 01:01:39 it is the spirit of her work and her work ethic that we carry as part of what
01:01:39 --> 01:01:40 we do in our organization.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:45 Yeah. Yeah. She was very, very...
01:01:46 --> 01:01:51 So as far as history goes, and like you said,
01:01:51 --> 01:01:58 she wanted it that way to a degree, but I still believe that people that have
01:01:58 --> 01:02:03 done the work, that carried the water like she did, should be recognized.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:09 So I am glad that you named the Institute after her in trying to carry on the
01:02:09 --> 01:02:12 work, and that'll be my question when I get to it.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:17 But I just wanted to say, you know, the quote that you responded to was from
01:02:17 --> 01:02:22 Fannie Lou Hamer, who basically came right after her.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:28 You know, some people would say they're contemporaries, but Fannie Lou was younger and,
01:02:28 --> 01:02:34 you know, and, you know, and she had she kind of emulated Miss Baker a little
01:02:34 --> 01:02:38 bit because a lot of people that I ended up interacting with when I got to Mississippi
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 in a movement where like her protégé is like. Dr.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:50 McLemore and Hollis Watkins and those guys, you know, they, you know, and, and, but, but Ms.
01:02:50 --> 01:02:53 Baker kind of laid the groundwork because when you talk about young people,
01:02:53 --> 01:02:55 we're talking about people like John Lewis.
01:02:55 --> 01:02:59 We're talking about people like Julian Bond and Al Raby and,
01:02:59 --> 01:03:04 and, uh, well, Bayard wasn't young, but Bayard kind of, she kind of,
01:03:05 --> 01:03:08 she kind of set the metronome for him to do some of the stuff he did.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 You know what I'm saying?
01:03:10 --> 01:03:18 They worked well together. I mean, but I mean, those are the kind of people that she mentored.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:26 And so you having the distinction of carrying that legacy on, I think is incredible.
01:03:26 --> 01:03:31 So my specific question is, what is the Ella Baker Institute and how does the
01:03:31 --> 01:03:33 Institute follow that legacy?
01:03:34 --> 01:03:41 Yeah. So EBI, as we call it, is an organization that centers leadership development
01:03:41 --> 01:03:43 and community well-being, those two things.
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 So we use leadership development as a vehicle to bring about community well-being
01:03:48 --> 01:03:50 in the spirit of Ella Baker.
01:03:50 --> 01:03:55 And we do that by focusing on three different groups, you could say.
01:03:55 --> 01:03:59 So one is young people. So we do a lot of work in the youth development space,
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 particularly through after-school programming, but a whole lot more.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:08 We do work with social impact organizations whose work focuses on marginalized,
01:04:08 --> 01:04:10 but particularly Black communities.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:15 And then we do work directly with communities as well.
01:04:15 --> 01:04:20 And so what that looks like is making sure, first and foremost,
01:04:20 --> 01:04:24 one of the things that we carry forth from her legacy and from her approach
01:04:24 --> 01:04:27 to community organizing was that we listen.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:32 So we all, my comrades and I, my co-founders and the folks that,
01:04:32 --> 01:04:35 other leaders within our organization that we've locked arms with,
01:04:36 --> 01:04:40 we all come from Brooklyn and or New York City in some proximity.
01:04:40 --> 01:04:44 Our board is 100% from that area as well.
01:04:44 --> 01:04:48 And so we are very familiar with the context that we serve.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:53 Don't take for granted that we we know exactly what
01:04:53 --> 01:04:56 the challenges are in the neighborhoods that we where we
01:04:56 --> 01:04:59 hyper focus our work so listening is
01:04:59 --> 01:05:05 a huge part of the work and of carrying the spirit of how Ella Baker did what
01:05:05 --> 01:05:11 she did and so I remember even reading her autobiography this is one of the
01:05:11 --> 01:05:14 things that stuck with me she would be in the room with a bunch of young people
01:05:14 --> 01:05:18 and they would look to her because she's this elder, she has this wisdom,
01:05:19 --> 01:05:23 she's done so much and they would ask her questions and she would not answer.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:28 I mean, she would let them lead, right? So this is one of the things that we
01:05:28 --> 01:05:30 carry forth tremendously.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:35 Not only in the work that we do with those three groups that I mentioned,
01:05:35 --> 01:05:38 but even amongst ourselves as leaders within the organization,
01:05:38 --> 01:05:43 when we communicate with one another, when we are planning for whatever we're doing,
01:05:44 --> 01:05:48 We make space to listen to one another, to make sure that we're hearing each other.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:52 And this trickles out to the folks that we serve.
01:05:52 --> 01:05:55 We take up the mantle of servant leadership and we take it up very,
01:05:56 --> 01:06:03 very intently, passionately, and devotedly in mean service in the truest sense of the word.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:06 And so we're just always looking for ways that we can serve but
01:06:06 --> 01:06:09 we know the best way to do that is not to go in and
01:06:09 --> 01:06:13 think that we know what communities need to be better but
01:06:13 --> 01:06:17 instead to take a pause and to to make sure that we're listening and not just
01:06:17 --> 01:06:21 listening to anybody either making sure that we're connected to the right people
01:06:21 --> 01:06:27 in the spaces that we serve to understand what is necessary and then understand
01:06:27 --> 01:06:32 how we can be a vehicle of change toward whatever it is, the needs are there. And so that.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:40 In short, that is how we do what we do and how we approach it and how we make
01:06:40 --> 01:06:44 sure that Ella Baker's spirit and legacy is alive in pretty much everything
01:06:44 --> 01:06:47 that we endeavor to accomplish.
01:06:47 --> 01:06:52 Is there a particular program that y'all run that, you know,
01:06:52 --> 01:06:53 that you want to highlight?
01:06:54 --> 01:07:01 Yeah, absolutely. What we call our flagship program is the Young People's Leadership Cooperative.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:07 And it is an after-school program that basically allows young people to,
01:07:07 --> 01:07:11 one, select, to first connect, right?
01:07:11 --> 01:07:17 So again, this idea of relationship building, which is another core component of Ella Baker's work.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:22 So, you know, you could be in a space, and in this example, in a school building
01:07:22 --> 01:07:26 and not know your fellow classmates in any kind of, you know,
01:07:26 --> 01:07:30 intimate or intentional way and or have relationships.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:36 I'll ask my children even, like, well, what school is so-and-so going to?
01:07:36 --> 01:07:39 Or what do they do on the way? And I don't know. I'm like, well,
01:07:39 --> 01:07:40 what do y'all talk about?
01:07:41 --> 01:07:45 So we create space for young people to really just connect with each other.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:50 We start our programs off by allowing them to break bread.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:56 So we bring in fresh meal and then just invoke that power of food as a way to connect.
01:07:56 --> 01:08:03 And then from there, we infuse the space with ways for them to explore identity
01:08:03 --> 01:08:08 development. So what it means to be a young Black person in today's age,
01:08:08 --> 01:08:11 in their particular context, in their particular community.
01:08:11 --> 01:08:16 And then we push them to position them rather to study what's happening in their
01:08:16 --> 01:08:22 community and isolate one challenge that is of paramount importance to them.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:29 Then we empower them with, or equip them, I should say, with resources to address
01:08:29 --> 01:08:32 whatever challenges that might come up for them.
01:08:32 --> 01:08:37 So as an example, some young people in the past have isolated gun violence.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:41 And in fact, Stacey and I were able to bring one of the young people from YPLC,
01:08:41 --> 01:08:45 Young People's Leadership Cooperative, onto our podcast to talk about the work
01:08:45 --> 01:08:48 that he was doing in his school and in his community around gun violence.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:55 Young people have addressed food injustice, just all kinds of different challenges.
01:08:55 --> 01:09:00 So the idea is that we use community organizing as a tool or the principles
01:09:00 --> 01:09:05 of community organizing as a tool to elevate the critical thinking of young
01:09:05 --> 01:09:08 people to understand what's going on in their community,
01:09:08 --> 01:09:13 what's going on in their spaces, and furthermore, what they can do to create change in those spaces.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:18 And the idea is that they not only get sort of those principles of community
01:09:18 --> 01:09:24 organizing, of leadership, of critical thinking, but also some exposure to possible
01:09:24 --> 01:09:26 career paths that they can take.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:30 Most of our young people that we've served in the middle grade,
01:09:30 --> 01:09:33 so middle school, and then we've worked with elementary schools and now we're
01:09:33 --> 01:09:35 working with high school students.
01:09:35 --> 01:09:38 But understanding that wherever you are on that K-12 spectrum,
01:09:39 --> 01:09:43 you have within you the power to think, to think critically,
01:09:43 --> 01:09:49 to make change and to think about your path ahead in terms of a possible career
01:09:49 --> 01:09:53 and ways that you can be an asset to your community.
01:09:53 --> 01:09:59 So that really is, that program is really the hallmark of why we do what we
01:09:59 --> 01:10:05 do, particularly as former educators and parents and people who love the spaces that we come from.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:10 Now, is this a year-round thing? Is this, and do they come like every day or
01:10:10 --> 01:10:12 just once a week? How does that work?
01:10:13 --> 01:10:16 Yeah, it is a school year-based program.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:21 And they come once, you know, once or so, five days a week after school.
01:10:21 --> 01:10:25 And one of our ultimate goals, I should say,
01:10:25 --> 01:10:30 is that we were taking the work that we're doing in the afterschool space and
01:10:30 --> 01:10:35 it's almost like we're incubating to see what possibilities lie there when you
01:10:35 --> 01:10:38 just give young people the space to lead.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:44 And ultimately we will turn the work that happens there into a full-fledged
01:10:44 --> 01:10:49 school model so that it extends not just from the afterschool space but into
01:10:49 --> 01:10:54 the entire school experience that a young person might have when they walk into a school building.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:59 So that's part of one of our next steps in terms of expanding our work.
01:10:59 --> 01:11:03 But for right now, yes, it is in an afterschool space, five days a week,
01:11:03 --> 01:11:05 currently in Brooklyn, New York.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:10 How many kids do you think that have gone through the program?
01:11:12 --> 01:11:17 Yeah, at this stage, I would say we're about maybe 400 to 450,
01:11:17 --> 01:11:21 somewhere in that range of students. And again, that spans from...
01:11:23 --> 01:11:28 Would say probably the third grade, realistically, all the way up to high school,
01:11:28 --> 01:11:32 with the majority of them being in the middle grade, six through eight. Wow.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:37 All right. For the work that you are doing, which one is the most important?
01:11:38 --> 01:11:41 Community, civic engagement, or creativity?
01:11:45 --> 01:11:54 That's tough Erik that is tough but community civic engagement or creativity,
01:11:57 --> 01:12:02 well you you absolutely need all three you do but you're forcing me to choose
01:12:02 --> 01:12:06 one and so I will oh you're not forcing me you're asking me to choose one and
01:12:06 --> 01:12:10 so I will I will say community.
01:12:10 --> 01:12:17 I can't not say it. I want to say creativity because it's really essential,
01:12:17 --> 01:12:18 especially in these times.
01:12:18 --> 01:12:23 I think these times call for us to be innovative and to be right-brained.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:26 But I would say that community is really essential.
01:12:28 --> 01:12:32 Most necessary driving force because, you know, if you're not focused on the
01:12:32 --> 01:12:39 people, you could easily get caught up in lots of other things that do not serve
01:12:39 --> 01:12:41 you or others for that matter.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:47 So I can't, I think I can't divorce myself from that and the power of community
01:12:47 --> 01:12:50 as I've seen it throughout my life in different ways.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:56 It is, it's crucial, especially now where we live in a time where gadgets and
01:12:56 --> 01:13:02 phones and laptops and things kind of drive pretty much everything.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:07 You know, it can be divisive. You know, it can be divisive.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:13 So I see community as a force, a vehicle, a space, and that space can be both
01:13:13 --> 01:13:21 physical and non-physical that where power can really be held collectively to bring about change.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:24 So I would say community is most important. Okay.
01:13:25 --> 01:13:30 So Ms. Baker wanted to make sure that the voices of Black women were heard during
01:13:30 --> 01:13:31 the Civil Rights Movement.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:35 But your early work involved getting more Black men into education,
01:13:35 --> 01:13:36 especially in classrooms.
01:13:37 --> 01:13:39 Why is that so important?
01:13:40 --> 01:13:43 I used to get asked this question a lot, a lot.
01:13:43 --> 01:13:49 And yeah, for me, there are a few things at play.
01:13:49 --> 01:13:55 One, the teaching force is predominantly white and female. Mostly white women
01:13:55 --> 01:13:58 are teachers in this country, has been for quite some time.
01:13:59 --> 01:14:03 That's one so there's a need for more black teachers
01:14:03 --> 01:14:05 period and and more teachers
01:14:05 --> 01:14:08 of color in general but more specifically for
01:14:08 --> 01:14:11 for black teachers so that's
01:14:11 --> 01:14:14 one part as my partner likes to say can't that's camera a
01:14:14 --> 01:14:21 right so we got that on camera a camera b we have the fact that our schools
01:14:21 --> 01:14:26 are predominantly made up of children of color right so and there have been
01:14:26 --> 01:14:31 bunches of studies that show that students benefit no matter their race,
01:14:32 --> 01:14:36 no matter their ethnicity, when you have Black teachers want and when teachers
01:14:36 --> 01:14:38 more specifically look like them,
01:14:38 --> 01:14:40 okay? So that's the other part.
01:14:40 --> 01:14:48 The other piece is that teaching for a long time has been considered women's work, all right?
01:14:48 --> 01:14:54 So to that notion, majority of the teaching force is made up of women,
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 all right? So we have the race piece, we have the gender piece.
01:14:59 --> 01:15:04 The other piece that's really more personal for me is that I used to teach a special ed.
01:15:04 --> 01:15:10 And in a special ed context, majority of those students were Black boys.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:17 And so if you combine what I've just shared, you understand that it's important
01:15:17 --> 01:15:21 for those Black boys specifically who are among the most marginalized in our
01:15:21 --> 01:15:24 school buildings to have teachers that look like them.
01:15:24 --> 01:15:29 I was blessed to be in a space where majority of my comrades,
01:15:30 --> 01:15:34 my co-teachers who taught the same students that I did were Black men.
01:15:34 --> 01:15:41 But I knew this was an anomaly. But I would see firsthand the power that those
01:15:41 --> 01:15:45 Black men had in the classroom with all of the students,
01:15:45 --> 01:15:50 but specifically with Black boys, and not just with my special ed class where I had a class of 12,
01:15:50 --> 01:15:54 but with the other classes that I was blessed to teach.
01:15:55 --> 01:15:58 So, but I also knew what the research and what the statistics says.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:03 So I was just very, very curious about the experiences that Black men were having
01:16:03 --> 01:16:08 as teachers, also knowing that when you connect back to their experiences as
01:16:08 --> 01:16:12 students, a lot of them didn't have positive experiences in schools, right?
01:16:12 --> 01:16:16 If you think about, yeah, the fact that most teachers are white and female,
01:16:17 --> 01:16:22 they didn't get an opportunity to see people who look like them in school buildings.
01:16:22 --> 01:16:29 So I wanted to, one, highlight this need, but also understand from the perspective
01:16:29 --> 01:16:31 of Black men what that experience was like.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:38 So I focused a great deal of my career in that stage from transitioning out
01:16:38 --> 01:16:45 of the classroom into higher ed and into policy work and program work around teacher diversity.
01:16:45 --> 01:16:51 I focus a lot of my energy on Black men and getting more of them into the field
01:16:51 --> 01:16:53 because our children need them.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:56 Yeah. I was sitting there thinking...
01:16:57 --> 01:17:04 First black male teacher I had was my junior year in high school.
01:17:05 --> 01:17:12 And that was my chemistry professor. And he thought that I was the second coming of chemistry.
01:17:12 --> 01:17:17 He was trying to convince me to make chemists, you know, and,
01:17:17 --> 01:17:23 you know, it was just, you know, just, just the support that he gave, you know?
01:17:23 --> 01:17:28 And it meant something. I mean, there were Black teachers at my school,
01:17:29 --> 01:17:31 not at my elementary school, but at my high school.
01:17:32 --> 01:17:37 But he was the very first one that I had to have a class with.
01:17:37 --> 01:17:45 And so, you know, it just highlights the fact that, and our school was basically like 97% Black.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:50 The only other ethnicity we had was AAPI.
01:17:52 --> 01:17:55 So you know just just just that fact
01:17:55 --> 01:17:58 alone even at a school where the majority of the
01:17:58 --> 01:18:01 kids and it was a school where you literally had to take a test to
01:18:01 --> 01:18:04 get in you know we
01:18:04 --> 01:18:08 didn't we didn't have that kind of representation we had a lot of white females
01:18:08 --> 01:18:13 we even had a husband and wife team you know what I'm saying it was just just
01:18:13 --> 01:18:18 that kind of thing so it's it's real what you're talking about is what I'm trying
01:18:18 --> 01:18:21 to testify to. Yep, yep, yep.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:26 Ms. Baker said, give light and people will find the way.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:30 How can public policy give light?
01:18:31 --> 01:18:35 That is one of our absolute favorite Ella Baker quotes. So thank you for bringing
01:18:35 --> 01:18:37 it into our conversation here.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:44 You know, I talked about it a moment ago, and I think this is one of the things
01:18:44 --> 01:18:49 that gets missed. You asked me that question earlier about our previous administration,
01:18:49 --> 01:18:52 and I would say this applies to any administration.
01:18:55 --> 01:18:58 Policy can give light by first listening.
01:19:00 --> 01:19:05 The people who are at the helm of making policy need to listen.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:09 And listening just doesn't, it doesn't involve getting people in a room and
01:19:09 --> 01:19:10 hearing what they have to say.
01:19:10 --> 01:19:14 It involves really intentionally getting to the heart.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:17 So Ella Baker talked about the concept of what it means to be radical.
01:19:18 --> 01:19:23 And she pointed out that being radical means getting to the root of a thing.
01:19:24 --> 01:19:31 And to me, there's so many jewels and gems that she offered to us.
01:19:32 --> 01:19:35 But this is one that also sticks with me in my core.
01:19:36 --> 01:19:40 So we think about what it means to be radical. And even for my math brains out
01:19:40 --> 01:19:43 there, when you think about, you know, we found the square root of a number, right?
01:19:43 --> 01:19:49 You put the radical sign. And this to me is the heart of what is necessary to
01:19:49 --> 01:19:53 get policy passed that actually serves people.
01:19:54 --> 01:20:00 To get to the root of the challenges that people are facing and to understand
01:20:00 --> 01:20:06 how to connect those challenges with policy that will actually improve the conditions
01:20:06 --> 01:20:13 of the people and what actually can help them and position them to really activate their own power.
01:20:13 --> 01:20:17 And to me, this is what light is.
01:20:18 --> 01:20:22 It's power. It's a power source. And we all have it. We all have it.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:28 The challenge is that there's so many, in part, the way that capitalism lives
01:20:28 --> 01:20:34 in this country and works in this country, some get to activate that power where others don't.
01:20:35 --> 01:20:40 And so the way that we give light through policy is by being able to get to
01:20:40 --> 01:20:48 the root of the why and to create policy that actually addresses the gaps that
01:20:48 --> 01:20:51 come about because of what's there at that root.
01:20:51 --> 01:20:54 If you think about a tree, I like to think about, and we actually,
01:20:55 --> 01:21:01 our logo for the Ella Baker Institute is a tree in the spirit of this idea of,
01:21:01 --> 01:21:03 if you think about an oak tree,
01:21:03 --> 01:21:07 I studied nature as part of like my strategy building at a point.
01:21:08 --> 01:21:10 And it's something I love to bring to folks and to organizations.
01:21:10 --> 01:21:14 There's a sister, Adrienne Marie Brown, who talks about the ways that nature
01:21:14 --> 01:21:17 can inform us in the work that we do.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:22 So you think about oak trees, oak trees have roots. They don't go so deep as
01:21:22 --> 01:21:24 much as they go wide and they connect to one another.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:28 And so they create networks where they're able to communicate with each other, trees.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:36 So this one tree is ill, you know, the soil and the roots combined to create
01:21:36 --> 01:21:38 pathways to heal that tree.
01:21:40 --> 01:21:46 And I think it's just a profound notion that trees, these static figures in
01:21:46 --> 01:21:50 our environment, and they're doing so much for us, but also for each other,
01:21:50 --> 01:21:52 and that they connect and they communicate.
01:21:52 --> 01:21:55 They look like they're not, but they're doing so much.
01:21:55 --> 01:22:01 But it's that connectivity at the root that gets them to be around well beyond
01:22:01 --> 01:22:04 the years that we have here on this earth as humans.
01:22:05 --> 01:22:09 And so I think this is part of what I think policy is meant to do.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:16 And how it is meant to be a vehicle for change and for improvement and for transformation
01:22:16 --> 01:22:19 in our communities and the lives of our people.
01:22:19 --> 01:22:28 You know, that's the challenge of politics is that and governing is that the
01:22:28 --> 01:22:33 most effective time for listening is after the election.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:39 When people are running for office, they're basically selling you something.
01:22:40 --> 01:22:44 Right. They're trying to send you some hope or in some cases fear,
01:22:44 --> 01:22:46 but they're trying to sell you something.
01:22:46 --> 01:22:53 And so the candidates are not listeners, but projectors.
01:22:54 --> 01:22:59 But once you take that oath and get in, that's when the listening part really
01:22:59 --> 01:23:05 becomes a valuable tool or a weapon even.
01:23:05 --> 01:23:12 And, you know, and so the problem is, is that we could have a great salesman,
01:23:12 --> 01:23:14 but a terrible listener.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:19 And that usually is what happens most of the time. And that leads to the frustration
01:23:19 --> 01:23:23 that people have with politics. And that could be a whole 'nother show.
01:23:23 --> 01:23:24 So let me don't go off on a tangent.
01:23:26 --> 01:23:29 I mean, just listening to you, that's why I was thinking about it.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:32 All right. So let's close out the interview.
01:23:34 --> 01:23:38 The previous guests had to answer these same questions, so I'm going to be fair
01:23:38 --> 01:23:42 and ask them to you because it's kind of the theme of the episode.
01:23:42 --> 01:23:48 So the first question is, do you want things for Black folks to be better,
01:23:48 --> 01:23:51 easier, or more impactful?
01:23:52 --> 01:23:58 You asked the hard questions, boy. Better, easier, or more impactful?
01:24:02 --> 01:24:06 It's interesting because what I thought I would say is not what I'm actually going to say.
01:24:09 --> 01:24:12 No it is what I'm going to say it is what I'm going to say so I was going to
01:24:12 --> 01:24:17 say easier because I'm all about ease especially as I age I want things to be
01:24:17 --> 01:24:19 easy and I think about my people.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:24 We've struggled and toiled for centuries. We need ease.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:35 But then, yeah, I think about the work and I'm not sure that growth can happen when things are easy.
01:24:36 --> 01:24:39 And growth is necessary because if you're not growing, you're dying.
01:24:39 --> 01:24:47 So I'm not sure that that's my response. I want to say impactful because I think
01:24:47 --> 01:24:51 that when I think about the word impactful, I think it's more all-encompassing
01:24:51 --> 01:24:54 of things like transformation,
01:24:54 --> 01:24:56 things like growth, things like change,
01:24:57 --> 01:24:59 things like things that become better, right?
01:25:00 --> 01:25:06 So I think it encompasses more holistically what I think we need as people.
01:25:07 --> 01:25:10 It's all going. you know and like
01:25:10 --> 01:25:13 I told other guests it's not a gotcha question but yeah yeah
01:25:13 --> 01:25:20 I'm I'm with the the easier part and and and I and I use my sports brain for
01:25:20 --> 01:25:27 it and yeah you know it's like when they when they finally gave Jackie Robinson
01:25:27 --> 01:25:32 the opportunity to play he did what anybody else would do that's great.
01:25:33 --> 01:25:39 And that is every 10 at bats, he got three times. He got a hit.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:45 If you are three for 10 throughout your whole career, you are considered a legend in baseball. Right.
01:25:46 --> 01:25:54 And so once once the door was open and other, you know, other athletes were
01:25:54 --> 01:25:55 given that opportunity.
01:25:56 --> 01:26:00 Well, look at all of these these young black men that have become Hall of Famer.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:08 Right. And it's like, and my thing is, if you just get out of my way, if you just allow me,
01:26:08 --> 01:26:15 if you give me the same opportunity, if you ease these restrictions,
01:26:15 --> 01:26:19 if you ease this racism, I can show you what I can do.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:25 The concern that you have about ease maybe
01:26:25 --> 01:26:28 not being a challenge then the challenge
01:26:28 --> 01:26:31 is not so much external to me
01:26:31 --> 01:26:34 is internal because every every athlete
01:26:34 --> 01:26:37 that I've you know every great athlete that I've encountered
01:26:37 --> 01:26:40 has always said but I
01:26:40 --> 01:26:43 can do one better you know I'm saying it was
01:26:43 --> 01:26:46 one thing for Michael Jordan to say well I won a championship and
01:26:46 --> 01:26:49 that's it you know I'm saying but it's like now
01:26:49 --> 01:26:51 no I want to get the second one right we got
01:26:51 --> 01:26:54 the second one it's like can I get the third one you see
01:26:54 --> 01:26:57 what I'm saying it's like at that point it's like
01:26:57 --> 01:27:00 how what can I do to keep staying
01:27:00 --> 01:27:03 at this particular level or even to get better
01:27:03 --> 01:27:06 and so but there was no restriction to
01:27:06 --> 01:27:09 him saying well you can't dribble this way or you can't
01:27:09 --> 01:27:12 wear your shorts that way or yeah we're going
01:27:12 --> 01:27:15 to limit the black players to so many there were no restrictions
01:27:15 --> 01:27:22 it was just like here's the rules here's everything do what you do and that
01:27:22 --> 01:27:25 you know when people talk about equal playing field it's like it's more than
01:27:25 --> 01:27:31 just equals about equity because it's like I want I want to be because equal
01:27:31 --> 01:27:35 could mean different things right if I if I make.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:40 One of my favorite pictures was a box, like people trying to look over a fence.
01:27:40 --> 01:27:48 And so if you had the boxes all equal, then the shortest person couldn't see over the fence.
01:27:48 --> 01:27:53 If you had equity based on the person's height, then everybody could look over the fence, right?
01:27:53 --> 01:27:58 Right, right, right. So, I mean, that's why I tend to go toward,
01:27:58 --> 01:28:01 if the question was asked to me, I would tend to go through easy.
01:28:01 --> 01:28:02 But there's no wrong answer.
01:28:02 --> 01:28:05 Of course, of course. But when I thought about it, I said, you know,
01:28:05 --> 01:28:08 that might be the question of our moment.
01:28:09 --> 01:28:13 What do we want? Because there's always been a question about Black agenda.
01:28:13 --> 01:28:17 But again, this is your interview, not my speech. So let me get to the last question.
01:28:18 --> 01:28:22 Finish this sentence. Okay. I have hope because.
01:28:24 --> 01:28:25 I have children.
01:28:27 --> 01:28:33 Because I have children. I must. I must. I can't not.
01:28:33 --> 01:28:37 And even if I didn't, I would know children. I would have children in my community.
01:28:38 --> 01:28:43 And therefore, I must have hope. There has to be something better,
01:28:43 --> 01:28:46 easier, and more impactful left for them.
01:28:46 --> 01:28:53 And so therefore, I must positively, absolutely have hope and build something
01:28:53 --> 01:28:57 from that place so that I'm not just living off hope.
01:28:57 --> 01:28:59 Because hope can get you but so far away.
01:29:00 --> 01:29:03 That I'm working towards actually creating the thing that I'm hoping for.
01:29:05 --> 01:29:10 Yeah, that's cool. All right. So the Ella Baker Institute, EBI,
01:29:10 --> 01:29:12 as you refer to it, is a nonprofit, is it not?
01:29:12 --> 01:29:17 It is a nonprofit organization, indeed. So how can people donate to that?
01:29:17 --> 01:29:19 How can people get more information about it?
01:29:20 --> 01:29:23 Go ahead and make sure. Yeah. So if you go to our website,
01:29:23 --> 01:29:30 www.ellabakerinstitute.org, You will find the link where we would more than
01:29:30 --> 01:29:35 happily accept your generous donations to our efforts to serve young people,
01:29:35 --> 01:29:39 to serve communities with a hyper focus on Black communities.
01:29:40 --> 01:29:45 And you can also check us out on Instagram at Ella Baker Institute on Word.
01:29:45 --> 01:29:49 I mean, we'd be happy to connect with you all. please reach out to us,
01:29:49 --> 01:29:52 particularly those of you who are in schools, who work with young people,
01:29:52 --> 01:29:57 who are in organizations, or anyone just interested in learning more about the
01:29:57 --> 01:30:01 great ancestor Ella Baker and contributing in any way, financially or otherwise,
01:30:01 --> 01:30:03 please, we would love to hear from you.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:08 And this is the holiday season, which means this is the giving season. It is giving season.
01:30:08 --> 01:30:11 So keep the Ella Baker Institute in mind.
01:30:12 --> 01:30:16 Dr. Patrice Fenton, thank you so much for coming on.
01:30:16 --> 01:30:23 I really was honored to have you come on and to be able to at least talk to you twice this year.
01:30:25 --> 01:30:31 And hopefully this will be because the rule is, you know, once you have been
01:30:31 --> 01:30:34 on the show, you have an open invitation to come back.
01:30:34 --> 01:30:38 So I understand there may be a reason that you can come back.
01:30:38 --> 01:30:40 So we need to make sure that you do.
01:30:42 --> 01:30:47 Indeed. Indeed. And thank you so much for the time and the opportunity for your
01:30:47 --> 01:30:50 platform and for your voice. It is much appreciated.
01:30:51 --> 01:30:55 I am, as the season is, but always, as I started out saying,
01:30:55 --> 01:30:56 in the space of gratitude.
01:30:57 --> 01:30:59 So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys.
01:30:59 --> 01:31:00 And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:18 All right. And we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.
01:31:18 --> 01:31:20 Marlee Bunch, Dr.
01:31:20 --> 01:31:23 Patrice Fenton for coming on the podcast.
01:31:24 --> 01:31:32 Greatly appreciate them doing that as the holiday season was kicking into high gear.
01:31:34 --> 01:31:40 And with Dr. Bunch. Make sure that you find a way to get those books,
01:31:41 --> 01:31:44 The Magnitude of Us and Unlearning the Hush.
01:31:44 --> 01:31:49 And she's got another book that we kind of mentioned in the interview dealing with leveraging AI.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:55 So if you're a teacher, The Magnitude of Us and Leveraging AI would be good
01:31:55 --> 01:32:02 books to get to kind of have a better grasp of teaching children,
01:32:03 --> 01:32:06 especially black children, in this day and age.
01:32:06 --> 01:32:10 And so, you know, from a historical perspective and dealing with the technology.
01:32:11 --> 01:32:17 But unlearning the hush kind of gives the backstory of the magnitude of us,
01:32:17 --> 01:32:23 how she came up with the curriculum, or I think the technical term is pedagogy.
01:32:25 --> 01:32:26 To teach these children.
01:32:27 --> 01:32:34 So I hope that you would support her as far as her writing endeavors. And then with Dr.
01:32:34 --> 01:32:38 Fenton, the Ella Baker Institute, the work that they're doing with young people,
01:32:39 --> 01:32:44 you know, after school program, try to teach them leadership skills and make
01:32:44 --> 01:32:50 them well-rounded individuals, regardless of what their career path is.
01:32:50 --> 01:32:55 Better citizens, better community leaders, all that. But, you know,
01:32:55 --> 01:32:57 it's a worthwhile project.
01:32:57 --> 01:33:01 It's a worthwhile nonprofit to donate to.
01:33:02 --> 01:33:05 So as I said in the interview, this is the giving season.
01:33:05 --> 01:33:09 If you want to donate to those organizations, you can do that.
01:33:10 --> 01:33:16 So as I'm recording this, like I said, we're getting ready to start 2026.
01:33:17 --> 01:33:25 And, you know, we've, the president has decided to go after ISIS in Nigeria.
01:33:25 --> 01:33:30 And on Christmas Day, he decided to drop bombs in Nigeria.
01:33:30 --> 01:33:34 Now, to be objective,
01:33:35 --> 01:33:40 you know, if it's a situation where you're going after a terrorist organization
01:33:40 --> 01:33:42 and ISIS is a terrorist organization,
01:33:42 --> 01:33:50 the president has that authority to have strategic attacks on terrorist organizations.
01:33:50 --> 01:33:57 That goes all the way back to legislation and authority that was given after 9-11.
01:33:58 --> 01:34:02 So, you know, if you're biased toward a president like I am,
01:34:02 --> 01:34:06 you kind of always have some skepticism behind it.
01:34:06 --> 01:34:12 And of course, the timing of it to do it on Christmas, it is what it is.
01:34:12 --> 01:34:16 But to be fair, he has that authority to do that.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:24 And if it is substantiated that they have been targeting Christians in the country
01:34:24 --> 01:34:29 of Nigeria, and it seems like that he had some kind of communications with the
01:34:29 --> 01:34:31 Nigerian government before this attack happened,
01:34:32 --> 01:34:36 maybe they okayed it, maybe they encouraged it.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:41 I don't know, because this administration is not as transparent as they advertise.
01:34:43 --> 01:34:49 But if he hadn't done any of the other crazy stuff prior to this,
01:34:49 --> 01:34:52 you know, you'd have to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
01:34:52 --> 01:34:56 It's just really you want to bomb people on Christmas. Right.
01:34:57 --> 01:35:01 I just kept thinking about the Stevie Wonder song, Someday at Christmas.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:05 You know, one of his lyrics is, there'll be no more war. Right.
01:35:07 --> 01:35:10 So there's that. But, you know,
01:35:10 --> 01:35:22 it just reminds me that a new year is coming and we have a chance as citizens
01:35:22 --> 01:35:28 to continue to send a message of resistance to this administration.
01:35:29 --> 01:35:33 As much as they don't like it, as much as their egos are hurt and bruised by it.
01:35:34 --> 01:35:39 The reality is that a majority of the American people don't like what's going
01:35:39 --> 01:35:41 on. They don't like the messages coming from the White House.
01:35:41 --> 01:35:47 They don't like the appearance of the White House, the destruction of the White House. You know.
01:35:50 --> 01:35:56 Black unemployment is on the rise. Costs are going up. Health care is going up.
01:35:58 --> 01:36:01 And that's something I'm personally dealing with because I had an episode,
01:36:01 --> 01:36:04 I guess, about a couple of months ago.
01:36:05 --> 01:36:10 And so, you know, it's just, it's a reality that all of us have to face.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:16 And there's bills to be paid and, you know, you're trying to, you got to eat.
01:36:16 --> 01:36:21 And those of us who still have children in the house, we got to take care of them.
01:36:21 --> 01:36:24 If you have pets, you got to take care of your pets, right?
01:36:25 --> 01:36:30 I mean, you know, this education, all that stuff. There's just so many things
01:36:30 --> 01:36:32 that people every day are dealing with.
01:36:33 --> 01:36:37 And while they don't want the government to totally interfere with that,
01:36:38 --> 01:36:42 you know, if the government can help them out, they would greatly appreciate it.
01:36:42 --> 01:36:48 If there is a way to reduce costs, they would like to see the government do that.
01:36:49 --> 01:36:52 If there's a way to ease financial burden.
01:36:54 --> 01:36:56 Would like to see the government do that? Because, you know,
01:36:57 --> 01:37:00 that's where the stress comes from. That's where the anger comes from.
01:37:01 --> 01:37:06 You know, there's a desire in every human being to be the best they can be and
01:37:06 --> 01:37:12 to live abundantly, live a lifestyle where they're comfortable, right?
01:37:13 --> 01:37:18 Now, you know, greed kicks in when you want to exceed that, and depression kicks
01:37:18 --> 01:37:22 in when you don't think that there's a way for you to do it, right?
01:37:22 --> 01:37:29 And so, in order to have a balance, people need to feel that they're worth something.
01:37:30 --> 01:37:33 And for a lot of people, that's income.
01:37:34 --> 01:37:38 And so, we have to be sensitive to that.
01:37:38 --> 01:37:43 And, you know, when you have somebody in office who portends to have wealth
01:37:43 --> 01:37:47 or travels in those kind of circles.
01:37:49 --> 01:37:56 The worst thing that could happen is that you get somebody that's not empathetic
01:37:56 --> 01:37:58 to people that are not in that circle.
01:37:59 --> 01:38:02 I was just talking to, I think I was some relatives over the holidays,
01:38:03 --> 01:38:10 and of course politics came up in the conversation, and one of the things I was talking about was,
01:38:10 --> 01:38:16 you know, comparing our current president with a wealthy president,
01:38:16 --> 01:38:21 you know, even though it was before my time, it wasn't that far away.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:25 I mean, when I was born, President Kennedy hadn't been dead two years.
01:38:26 --> 01:38:33 And, you know, comparing Trump to Kennedy, since he decided to make that comparison
01:38:33 --> 01:38:36 for all of us by putting his name on the Kennedy Center, you know.
01:38:37 --> 01:38:44 Had a different mindset about their wealth, regardless of how they got it, right?
01:38:44 --> 01:38:50 Because a lot of us know that, you know, the old man Kennedy was involved in
01:38:50 --> 01:38:53 the bootlegging of alcohol back in the day.
01:38:54 --> 01:38:56 It's where they got a substantial amount of their wealth.
01:38:57 --> 01:39:02 But it was always instilled in them to do something.
01:39:02 --> 01:39:06 And I think that's why when President Kennedy gave his inaugural address,
01:39:06 --> 01:39:11 and he said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.
01:39:11 --> 01:39:18 That was instilled in them as a family, that a country that gave them an opportunity
01:39:18 --> 01:39:25 to be wealthy, the least they could do was to give service, whether that was in the military,
01:39:26 --> 01:39:28 whether it was in politics,
01:39:29 --> 01:39:30 nonprofits, whatever.
01:39:31 --> 01:39:42 And as flawed as any human being can be, despite all that, they exemplify that. They've done that.
01:39:43 --> 01:39:46 We can't say that about the Trump family.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:54 And that's the difference. When you hear me say the phrase, we are not doing
01:39:54 --> 01:39:58 capitalism right in America, that's what I'm talking about, right?
01:39:59 --> 01:40:03 There's nothing wrong with people making money. There's nothing wrong with people
01:40:03 --> 01:40:06 becoming wealthy and successful in business.
01:40:06 --> 01:40:08 There is a problem with greed.
01:40:09 --> 01:40:14 There is a problem with hoarding. There's a problem with not being empathetic.
01:40:14 --> 01:40:21 There's a problem with not being sympathetic. There's a problem with discriminating, right? Right?
01:40:23 --> 01:40:31 I mean, we understand that levels of wealth creates levels of access. We get that.
01:40:33 --> 01:40:36 And there's some people that, hey, be nice.
01:40:38 --> 01:40:46 I was a member of a club, per se, at one time in my life, and it has perks.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:53 But it's not my definition of life. It's an experience of life.
01:40:53 --> 01:40:55 But it's not a definition.
01:40:55 --> 01:41:03 You know, my status is not me. What I have access to, it's not me.
01:41:03 --> 01:41:07 And so when I had that status, I still was Erik.
01:41:07 --> 01:41:13 And maybe to my detriment, I was, but I am who I am.
01:41:13 --> 01:41:17 And I still believe that people, when they need help, should get it.
01:41:18 --> 01:41:22 I believe that if you have the capacity and the heart to serve,
01:41:22 --> 01:41:29 you should serve and give back to a nation that is giving you everything.
01:41:30 --> 01:41:36 You know, so it shouldn't matter if you're the richest person in the world or
01:41:36 --> 01:41:38 you're the poorest person in the world.
01:41:38 --> 01:41:43 If you have a heart to give, if you have a heart to serve, then you should do that.
01:41:45 --> 01:41:52 And, you know, I mean, you don't have to give up everything because there is
01:41:52 --> 01:41:57 a need to have self-preservation, whether you're the richest or the poorest
01:41:57 --> 01:41:59 person. But at the same time.
01:42:01 --> 01:42:07 You got, you can't take it with you. And you know, I know there was ancient
01:42:07 --> 01:42:11 cultures, and that's why the pyramids were built, so the pharaohs could have
01:42:11 --> 01:42:15 all the stuff that they have and travel with the afterlife.
01:42:15 --> 01:42:17 Yeah, that's not how that works.
01:42:18 --> 01:42:25 You know, whatever wealth you had will be distributed amongst your heirs,
01:42:25 --> 01:42:30 or if you're not protected, be distributed to the state.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:35 Right. That's the reality of life. You can't take any of this with you.
01:42:36 --> 01:42:40 Even if Elon Musk manages to become a trillionaire, he can't take a trillion
01:42:40 --> 01:42:43 dollars into heaven or hell wherever he's going. Right.
01:42:44 --> 01:42:56 And so, you know, that means that what's more valuable is what you offer. Right.
01:42:57 --> 01:43:04 What service did you provide? what did you give to help your fellow man?
01:43:06 --> 01:43:08 And even if it's limited, right?
01:43:09 --> 01:43:15 You know, we were talking about some people being upset about gifts they got at Christmas.
01:43:16 --> 01:43:21 And, you know, my attitude is like, you know, it's the thought that counts,
01:43:21 --> 01:43:22 right? It's about gratitude.
01:43:23 --> 01:43:26 I'll never forget, I was dating a girl.
01:43:28 --> 01:43:36 And there's two sides to this story, but I was dating a girl and she fixed me
01:43:36 --> 01:43:42 breakfast and she burnt the food. I think she burnt the toast or whatever.
01:43:43 --> 01:43:47 And I was not happy about that. I was like, it's burnt, I can't eat that.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:53 And so my best friend, he kind of overheard me say that and he was admonishing
01:43:53 --> 01:44:02 me about, not being grateful because she could have not even cared enough to even fix me anything.
01:44:04 --> 01:44:09 And I had to tell him, I said, I understand where you're coming from.
01:44:10 --> 01:44:13 I said, but you're white and I'm black.
01:44:14 --> 01:44:18 So let me tell you what that means to me, right?
01:44:18 --> 01:44:24 As a black person, we should be grateful for the fact that we have been able
01:44:24 --> 01:44:29 to have our rights evolve in this nation.
01:44:29 --> 01:44:36 We have come from being people kidnapped from our native land and being enslaved
01:44:36 --> 01:44:43 in another to being in positions where we could have any job in society we want,
01:44:43 --> 01:44:47 whether we want to be a million dollar athlete, a lawyer, a doctor,
01:44:48 --> 01:44:51 hell, even president of the United States or a Supreme Court justice.
01:44:51 --> 01:44:57 We've done all of this stuff within the span of 400 years, right?
01:44:58 --> 01:45:08 Educators and welders and, you know, farmers and not just, you know, farmers for our thing.
01:45:09 --> 01:45:16 But, I mean, we're like, you can find black people in the whole journey from farm to table, right?
01:45:16 --> 01:45:19 So we've evolved in that sense.
01:45:22 --> 01:45:27 But we have to be careful about our gratefulness.
01:45:27 --> 01:45:32 And so I told him it's like, you know, white folks give us stuff.
01:45:33 --> 01:45:39 And, you know, in some cases, we've been able to take the scraps that you gave
01:45:39 --> 01:45:43 us and make it a full course meal, right? Right.
01:45:44 --> 01:45:51 And there's other times you've given us something and it has no bearing on us
01:45:51 --> 01:45:55 moving forward as a people, moving forward as a nation, even.
01:45:56 --> 01:46:04 And so, you know, it's all right. And I should acknowledge the fact that she made me the toast.
01:46:05 --> 01:46:09 But I have the right to be displeased that it's not edible.
01:46:10 --> 01:46:12 You know, the act should be commended.
01:46:13 --> 01:46:17 But the end result is I still didn't have anything to eat, right?
01:46:18 --> 01:46:24 And you can take that either way you want to, but my position is that if you're
01:46:24 --> 01:46:30 going to give, if you're going to be of service, then it has to be productive.
01:46:30 --> 01:46:35 It can't be performative. It can't be hollow, right?
01:46:36 --> 01:46:41 And so when I look at what the Kennedys did and what they're still doing,
01:46:41 --> 01:46:46 It's like they're trying to do something to uplift people, right?
01:46:47 --> 01:46:54 Whether it's creating affirmative action or eliminating poverty or the Special
01:46:54 --> 01:46:58 Olympics or anything else that they've been involved in, right?
01:46:58 --> 01:47:05 The Kennedy Center to uplift the arts in America. Those things are beneficial to humans.
01:47:05 --> 01:47:08 They're beneficial to the nation. They're beneficial to society.
01:47:10 --> 01:47:14 If you just want to be president just because you can put that on your resume
01:47:14 --> 01:47:18 or that allows you to make more money than you were making when you were just
01:47:18 --> 01:47:20 a regular citizen, that doesn't help us,
01:47:21 --> 01:47:27 you know, and it doesn't help to have people around him that don't try to guide
01:47:27 --> 01:47:28 him in a way where he could do something.
01:47:28 --> 01:47:32 It's one thing if you help a Nicki Minaj or a Kim Kardashian,
01:47:33 --> 01:47:35 but what are you going to do to help California?
01:47:36 --> 01:47:41 What are you going to do to help Trinidad, the nation, right? There's a difference.
01:47:42 --> 01:47:46 What are you going to do about, it's one thing to get people out of jail.
01:47:46 --> 01:47:51 It's another thing to change the criminal justice system, right? Right.
01:47:52 --> 01:47:57 Have concepts of any plan you want. Concepts don't get it done.
01:47:57 --> 01:48:04 You have to have a plan of action and you have to act on your plan, right?
01:48:05 --> 01:48:10 In order for it to have any kind of impact, in order to provide the service,
01:48:10 --> 01:48:13 in order to give something to help people.
01:48:14 --> 01:48:20 If you want to bomb ISIS in Nigeria, Mr. President, you have the authority to do that.
01:48:21 --> 01:48:25 But what's the next step? How are you going to help the country in Nigeria,
01:48:25 --> 01:48:27 which is one of the wealthiest countries in the nation, by the way,
01:48:27 --> 01:48:30 in the world, by the way? But how are you going to help Nigeria?
01:48:31 --> 01:48:34 Are you going to help with some infrastructure development? Are you going to
01:48:34 --> 01:48:41 compete with China to make sure that our presence is there so that we have an ally?
01:48:41 --> 01:48:45 I mean, it's more than just performative acts.
01:48:46 --> 01:48:51 Would those Christians in Nigeria, if they felt that they were being persecuted
01:48:51 --> 01:48:57 still, even after, because you've proven that they've been persecuted by you taking action.
01:48:58 --> 01:49:03 So if they apply for a visa or apply for asylum in the United States,
01:49:03 --> 01:49:06 are you going to let them in, right?
01:49:06 --> 01:49:09 Because the Nigerian Christians are black.
01:49:10 --> 01:49:18 So are you going to let them in? All I'm saying is in this season where we talk
01:49:18 --> 01:49:20 about the greatest gift for those of us who are Christian.
01:49:21 --> 01:49:25 The greatest gift that was ever given to mankind was the birth of Jesus Christ.
01:49:25 --> 01:49:30 We celebrate that during this time of year, regardless of whether it was a pagan
01:49:30 --> 01:49:31 holiday or not initially.
01:49:32 --> 01:49:35 We've chosen this time to celebrate that gift.
01:49:35 --> 01:49:41 And so during that time, you know, it's more than just making sure that your
01:49:41 --> 01:49:47 child has the latest Xbox or PS5 or PlayStation, whatever number they are on now.
01:49:48 --> 01:49:52 It's about teaching why gift giving is important.
01:49:53 --> 01:50:00 Kwanzaa season now, so Habari Gani to everybody. It's about celebrating the
01:50:00 --> 01:50:01 first fruits of the harvest.
01:50:02 --> 01:50:07 It's about respecting the ancestors. It's about teaching the community the values
01:50:07 --> 01:50:10 you need to build a stronger community, right?
01:50:10 --> 01:50:13 It's not about anything else.
01:50:14 --> 01:50:19 I don't have time to enumerate all of the criticisms, but you see where I'm going.
01:50:20 --> 01:50:28 So I'm hoping that as 2026 approaches, that all of us, regardless if you're
01:50:28 --> 01:50:34 Black or not, all of us go into this mindset of what can I give?
01:50:35 --> 01:50:39 How can I better serve my people and my nation?
01:50:40 --> 01:50:42 And since this is a political show.
01:50:44 --> 01:50:49 Who do we vote for? Do we vote for the same type of people?
01:50:49 --> 01:50:53 Or do we vote for somebody that exposes true American leadership,
01:50:53 --> 01:50:56 which is about service and about giving, right?
01:50:57 --> 01:51:04 That's the mindset we need to go into 2026. We have to find the true servant leaders,
01:51:05 --> 01:51:12 the true Americans that really believe that this is one nation under God,
01:51:12 --> 01:51:18 that it's truly a land where all men are created equal,
01:51:19 --> 01:51:27 that we have inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
01:51:28 --> 01:51:32 Those are the people that we need to vote for. And not just this election,
01:51:32 --> 01:51:37 but from every election afterward, going forward, right?
01:51:38 --> 01:51:44 We have to set that standard. On the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of
01:51:44 --> 01:51:49 Independence being signed and sent to the king of England, where the colonists
01:51:49 --> 01:51:53 told the king, yeah, we don't want to be a part of the empire anymore.
01:51:53 --> 01:51:56 We want to set forth our own path.
01:51:57 --> 01:52:02 We want to take care of each other. We don't want to bow down to one man.
01:52:02 --> 01:52:07 We want to live our lives independent and free, right?
01:52:07 --> 01:52:11 We need to elect people who get that.
01:52:13 --> 01:52:17 Anybody else that's talking about anything else, we ain't got time for that.
01:52:19 --> 01:52:23 I have always made the case that if you just leave black folks alone, we'll be fine.
01:52:23 --> 01:52:27 You stop telling us where to go to the bathroom, what water fountain to drink
01:52:27 --> 01:52:33 out of, what part of the bus to sit on, what school we can go to, what sport we can play,
01:52:33 --> 01:52:40 what access do we have, what our credit score is, what law school we go to.
01:52:40 --> 01:52:46 If you stop restricting us, just let us live our lives, we'll be great.
01:52:46 --> 01:52:52 And I promise you, that little 13, 14% of the nation we represent is.
01:52:54 --> 01:53:01 Wonders for you. If you want to end crime in an inner city, stop putting restrictions
01:53:01 --> 01:53:02 on folks where they can't leave.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:12 You know, we literally had a promotion in this nation, which was exacerbated by a columnist.
01:53:12 --> 01:53:15 And we came up with this phrase, the manifest destiny, right?
01:53:16 --> 01:53:20 That, you know, we wanted the country to expand.
01:53:20 --> 01:53:26 We wanted the people to go out and find a place to live and thrive. We encourage that.
01:53:26 --> 01:53:31 That's why we can say in America, the beautiful from sea to shining sea,
01:53:32 --> 01:53:33 right? We encourage that.
01:53:34 --> 01:53:41 But we denied that to the Native Americans. We denied that to Black Americans after enslavement.
01:53:42 --> 01:53:46 We're trying to deny it now to anybody that wasn't born in the United States,
01:53:47 --> 01:53:52 even though there's no way this country could exist without immigrants.
01:53:53 --> 01:53:57 So we need to elect people who get the big picture.
01:53:57 --> 01:54:06 When we vote on the first Tuesday of November in 2026, that vote should be a second declaration.
01:54:07 --> 01:54:11 Not a declaration of independence, but a declaration of freedom.
01:54:11 --> 01:54:19 Is that we stand here today to choose leadership that will take America to the next level.
01:54:20 --> 01:54:25 Where we double down on our commitment, our creed, if you will,
01:54:26 --> 01:54:33 that everybody can live a life that's abundant and free, that people can really
01:54:33 --> 01:54:38 have the liberty to do what they want, love who they want, be who they want to be,
01:54:39 --> 01:54:44 and be productive in society, and to pursue what makes us happy.
01:54:46 --> 01:54:51 A house, whether it's a job, whether it's a car, whether it's a career,
01:54:52 --> 01:54:59 a college, whatever we want to pursue, we should be allowed to do that, right?
01:54:59 --> 01:55:04 Now, far be it for me to encourage people to do illegal stuff,
01:55:04 --> 01:55:10 not including that in the package, because, you know, with great power comes
01:55:10 --> 01:55:12 great responsibility, right?
01:55:13 --> 01:55:21 But we need to put people in office that demand that we finally live up to,
01:55:22 --> 01:55:27 what we expressed to an empire 250 years ago, what we wanted to be,
01:55:28 --> 01:55:31 what this nation should be about.
01:55:32 --> 01:55:39 And so people like President Trump and his sycophants can have a voice in the public square,
01:55:40 --> 01:55:45 But in order for us to move forward, we got to have people that can temper that
01:55:45 --> 01:55:51 with other voices and preferably voices of reason, right?
01:55:52 --> 01:55:55 So we can move forward and everybody can excel.
01:55:56 --> 01:56:00 That's my hope. That's my wish for 2026.
01:56:02 --> 01:56:07 So on that note, ladies and gentlemen, Happy New Year to everybody.
01:56:08 --> 01:56:13 I'm hoping that individually your 2026 will be a prosperous one.
01:56:13 --> 01:56:20 And I pray that as a nation, collectively, it'll be a prosperous one as well.
01:56:20 --> 01:56:23 And we will set a foundation for a new direction.
01:56:24 --> 01:56:26 All right. Thank you all for listening.