Host Erik Fleming speaks with three guests about urgent national and local issues: Nekima Levy Armstrong on police and ICE violence and community-led demands following Renee Good’s killing in Minnesota; Dr. Kem-Laurin Lubin on ethical AI, the risks of computational bias, and design heuristics to protect human dignity; and Mishael White on his campaign for Georgia’s District 81, focusing on transportation, maternal health, school safety, and small business support.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:04 --> 00:01:10 Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:57 --> 00:02:01 Welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:08 Erik Fleming, and we got a good show for you all today.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:18 As this episode drops, this is Martin Luther King Day, a day of service, not a day off, right?
00:02:18 --> 00:02:27 So hopefully as you are working on projects or in between working on a service
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 project or attending a community breakfast or whatever your MLK activities are,
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 that you're taking the time to enjoy this podcast,
00:02:37 --> 00:02:45 but that, you know, that you and your neighbors and your friends are doing something
00:02:45 --> 00:02:47 to help the community that you live in.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:54 That was one of the stipulations of creating a holiday was that it wasn't just
00:02:54 --> 00:03:00 another the day for us to shop or barbecue or whatever the case may be,
00:03:00 --> 00:03:04 but to actually honor the legacy of Dr.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 Martin Luther King Jr., the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.,
00:03:08 --> 00:03:14 and to provide service to what he used to call the beloved community.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 So I hope that you are taking advantage of that and doing your part. Speaking about doing.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:31 Their part. The three guests that I have on today definitely qualify as people
00:03:31 --> 00:03:35 who get it and are doing their best.
00:03:35 --> 00:03:41 I was very fortunate to have a connection, a guest that is returning on the
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 program to what's going on in Minnesota.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:56 So you'll get a first hand about the efforts that around the protests and, you know,
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 some lowdown about what's going on in the state of Minnesota as it relates to
00:04:00 --> 00:04:05 responding to the ICE invasion.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:14 And then we're going to talk about AI and how it impacts us, Black folks.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:18 And then we're going to have another candidate on.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:23 This guy is running for a state legislative seat in the state of Georgia,
00:04:23 --> 00:04:28 and so you're going to get to hear his thoughts and why he's running,
00:04:28 --> 00:04:33 and he's going to make his pitch why people in his district should support him.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 So, again, like I said, this is going to be a good show. These are really,
00:04:38 --> 00:04:43 really good people, and I'm really, really blessed to have the connections with
00:04:43 --> 00:04:46 them to get them on to talk to you, the listener.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:53 We continue to ask for our support, not just listening, but also financial.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:56 So feel free to subscribe to the podcast.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:03 You can do that two ways. You can either do it through patreon.com slash a moment
00:05:03 --> 00:05:11 with Eric Fleming, or you can go to the website, www.momenteric.com.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:17 And you can also on the website, you know,
00:05:17 --> 00:05:22 catch up on some past episodes and learn a little bit about me and,
00:05:22 --> 00:05:27 you know, just what the mission of this particular podcast is.
00:05:28 --> 00:05:33 So if you would, go do that, but we're going to go ahead and get this show started.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:43 Thank you.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 Thanks, Erik. The U.S. Attorney's Office in D.C.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 Has launched a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 regarding headquarters renovation costs and his testimony to Congress.
00:05:58 --> 00:06:02 Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem announced the deployment of hundreds
00:06:02 --> 00:06:07 more federal officers to Minnesota following protests over the fatal shooting
00:06:07 --> 00:06:09 of Renee Nicole Good by an immigration agent.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:13 At least a dozen federal prosecutors have resigned in protest over the Trump
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 administration's handling of the Renee Good shooting.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:22 Minnesota and Illinois have sued the Trump administration to halt the unconstitutional
00:06:22 --> 00:06:26 surge of federal immigration enforcement officers into their states.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:30 A Venezuelan man associated with a gang was charged with assaulting federal
00:06:30 --> 00:06:36 officers in Portland, Oregon, after he allegedly rammed his car into Border Patrol vehicles.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:41 The Trump administration is terminating temporary protected status for thousands
00:06:41 --> 00:06:45 of Somali nationals in the U.S., mandating their departure by March 17.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 Senator Mark Kelly filed a lawsuit against Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth,
00:06:50 --> 00:06:56 claiming Pentagon efforts to demote his retired Navy rank violate his free speech rights.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 Tehran is keeping communication lines open with the U.S.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:05 As President Trump considers his response to Iran's violent crackdown on nationwide
00:07:05 --> 00:07:10 anti-government protests, in which over 2 people have died.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 A Justice Department prosecutor was fired by the Trump administration after
00:07:14 --> 00:07:19 refusing to lead the criminal case against former FBI Director James Comey.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:24 Law enforcement in Clay County, Mississippi arrested a suspect in the murder
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 of six people, including a seven-year-old child.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:32 Federal authorities charged a Mississippi man with arson for allegedly burning
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 a Jackson, Mississippi synagogue because of its religious identity.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:41 And Claudette Colvin, the civil rights pioneer who famously refused to give
00:07:41 --> 00:07:46 up her bus seat months before Rosa Parks, died at the age of 86.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:50 I am Grace G, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:00 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:06 Now it's time for my guest, Nekima Levy Armstrong.
00:08:07 --> 00:08:12 Nekima Levy Armstrong is a civil rights attorney, activist and founder of the
00:08:12 --> 00:08:13 Racial Justice Network.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:19 Nekima is a former law professor and former president of the Minneapolis NAACP.
00:08:19 --> 00:08:26 And I've asked Nekima to come on because she's right there in ground zero dealing
00:08:26 --> 00:08:30 with the aftermath of the murder of Renee Good.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:37 And she's part of the coalition that is trying to hold people accountable.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:42 And so I reached out to her and asked her to kind of give us an update about
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 what's going on, what the plans are and all that. And she agreed.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:50 So ladies and gentlemen, I have this distinct honor and privilege to have as
00:08:50 --> 00:08:55 a guest on this podcast, Nekima Levy Armstrong.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:13 All right. Nekima Levy Armstrong. How are you holding up, sister? You doing good?
00:09:14 --> 00:09:19 I'm definitely doing my best. You know, we have a lot in front of us,
00:09:19 --> 00:09:24 but in some ways we've been here before, you know, after George Floyd was killed
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 and just all the activism before.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:33 So I'm activated and pacing myself because I know it's a marathon and not a sprint. Yeah.
00:09:34 --> 00:09:39 So my normal thing is to start off with a quote. So I want you to respond to this quote.
00:09:40 --> 00:09:46 Silence is not neutrality. Delay is not due process. And lies are not justice.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 Talk to me about that quote. That quote is perfectly fitting for the times that
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 we are living in within our society as a whole,
00:09:55 --> 00:10:01 but also more specifically what we are dealing with here in the city of Minneapolis
00:10:01 --> 00:10:07 and the state of Minnesota, where we are facing the largest deployment of ICE
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 agents in the history of the United States.
00:10:09 --> 00:10:15 And obviously the brutal killing of Renee Nicole Good at the hands of an ICE
00:10:15 --> 00:10:19 agent on January 7th of 2026.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:28 So let's deal with some updates now. Now, you've had two press conferences since
00:10:28 --> 00:10:31 then kind of give an update about where...
00:10:32 --> 00:10:37 Minneapolis is right now, the community, and how things have been going.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:42 I've seen that, you know, people have been out in the streets protesting and all that.
00:10:42 --> 00:10:47 And so just kind of give the listeners an update about what's going on in the community.
00:10:48 --> 00:10:54 Yes. So I first want to give some context to help people understand why we feel
00:10:54 --> 00:10:55 this is happening in Minnesota.
00:10:56 --> 00:11:02 As you all might recall, our governor, Tim Waltz, served as the running for
00:11:02 --> 00:11:06 Kamala Harris when she ran for president of the United States.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:12 Governor Walz called out MAGA, called out Donald Trump, called them weird,
00:11:12 --> 00:11:14 you know, and all kinds of things.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:21 And that actually has led to our state facing retaliation at the hands of the
00:11:21 --> 00:11:24 Trump administration. And that is part of why they sent ICE here.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:30 They also had round-the-clock media coverage of so-called Somali fraud.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:35 Now, there were some incidents that happened with a food giveaway program that
00:11:35 --> 00:11:38 was supposed to take place during COVID.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:43 And what our government found out or our state found out was that there were
00:11:43 --> 00:11:46 some people who defrauded the government, claiming there were some,
00:11:46 --> 00:11:51 you know, many of them were Somali, claiming they were operating these food sites.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:57 And so there have been several trials already, several people convicted as a
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 result of that particular feeding our future scandal but the actual face of
00:12:02 --> 00:12:05 that whole program is a white woman amy bach.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:11 And you haven't seen Trump pointing out this is the face of fraud in America.
00:12:11 --> 00:12:16 It's a white woman. But the reality is, you know, without Amy Bach,
00:12:16 --> 00:12:17 none of this would have happened.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:23 And so instead, Donald Trump has levied consistent attacks against the Somali community.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:27 He already doesn't like Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:32 They've sparred many times. She represents Minnesota in Congress.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:39 And so that gave him the perfect excuse to attack a segment of the population
00:12:39 --> 00:12:45 that has been here peacefully for many, many decades and is part of the fabric of Minnesota.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:49 And we're talking about the conduct of a very small number of people,
00:12:49 --> 00:12:57 but that has been used to justify bringing more ICE agents into Minnesota and
00:12:57 --> 00:13:04 Having even a YouTuber, Nick Shirley, come and basically bring forward propaganda
00:13:04 --> 00:13:08 and the media was going along with these false narratives.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:13 So as things escalated, that's how we got ICE agents here.
00:13:13 --> 00:13:20 And they actually even pressured Governor Walz to abandon his campaign for governor.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:24 He was going to run for a third term. But on Monday of last week,
00:13:24 --> 00:13:29 he announced that he was going to withdraw his campaign for governor.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:36 And then the next day, Kristi Noem showed up here and announced that they were
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 going to deploy the largest number of ICE agents in history.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:46 Then the next day after that, Renee Good was brutally murdered by an ICE agent.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:50 So all of that history and context matters in terms of how we got here.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:52 It didn't happen in a vacuum.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:57 And it's very much a part of the vindictiveness and the retaliation and the
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 propaganda being brought forth by the Trump administration.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:08 Now, I am a person who's worked on police accountability cases for a long time as an advocate.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:14 And typically, if there's a video that's released, if there's testimony from
00:14:14 --> 00:14:16 the community, what do we normally
00:14:16 --> 00:14:20 hear? wait until all the facts come out before you draw a conclusion.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:28 In this case, right after Nicole Goode was killed, we saw DHS Secretary Kristi
00:14:28 --> 00:14:30 Noem call her a domestic terrorist.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:35 We saw Donald Trump say that she tried to run over an ICE agent.
00:14:36 --> 00:14:42 We've seen Vice President J.D. Vance claim that the officer who did this acted
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 in self-defense and has absolute immunity.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 I've never seen anything like that in my life where you have people running
00:14:50 --> 00:14:56 the country who already draw a conclusion without all the facts and the evidence,
00:14:56 --> 00:15:01 without looking at the law and whether it was violated by the ICE agent in this
00:15:01 --> 00:15:07 situation and without there being a formal investigation into what happened.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 So they've already told the nation, we have zero intention of holding this ICE
00:15:13 --> 00:15:18 agent accountable for brutally murdering Renee Nicole Good.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:24 So as a result of that, that evening, I actually worked with my comrades to
00:15:24 --> 00:15:29 put a press release together calling for an emergency press conference that
00:15:29 --> 00:15:33 would take place the next day, which was Thursday, January 8th.
00:15:33 --> 00:15:41 And what we asked for was for a locally led independent investigation into the killing of Renee Goode.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:47 Now, at the time that we put our press release out, we were under the impression
00:15:47 --> 00:15:52 that the FBI and the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, which is a state level
00:15:52 --> 00:15:55 criminal investigative agency,
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 would be working collaboratively on a joint investigation.
00:15:58 --> 00:16:05 By the next morning, Thursday, January 8th, we awoke to news that the FBI had
00:16:05 --> 00:16:10 disinvited the BCA from participating in the investigation,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:14 saying that they would not share any evidence in the case and that they would
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 be handling the investigation on their own.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:21 That made our press conference even more timely because we were already calling
00:16:21 --> 00:16:22 for a locally led investigation.
00:16:22 --> 00:16:28 It just reinforced why this is so important. And so during our press conference,
00:16:28 --> 00:16:33 what we did was to amplify an issue that would have been swept under the rug.
00:16:33 --> 00:16:38 Because once that news came out, the BCA basically threw up their hands and
00:16:38 --> 00:16:39 said, well, there's nothing we can do.
00:16:39 --> 00:16:42 The FBI won't let us in, so we can't investigate.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 And we said, absolutely not. We're not accepting that as an answer.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:51 So during our press conference, we laid out the law and the facts,
00:16:51 --> 00:16:56 educating the public and educating elected officials that under the law,
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 they had the power to bring forward a local investigation.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:06 They also had the power to arrest the ICE agent who killed Renee Good,
00:17:06 --> 00:17:08 as well as to bring charges in the case.
00:17:08 --> 00:17:13 And so once we put that out there, we made that demand. That was one of our primary demands.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:19 We also demanded the release of the name of the ICE agent, which the Star Tribune,
00:17:19 --> 00:17:24 our state's largest newspaper, actually complied with and released the name of the ICE agent.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:31 We also asked for the release of any body camera footage or any other footage pertaining to the case.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:38 And a conservative news outlet actually released the cell phone video that the
00:17:38 --> 00:17:42 ICE agent, Jonathan Ross, had taken himself of the incident.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:47 So apparently he had a phone in one hand and a gun in the other,
00:17:47 --> 00:17:53 which I don't see how that wasn't a violation of departmental policies on top
00:17:53 --> 00:17:55 of all the other violations that happened.
00:17:55 --> 00:18:00 And so by that night, after our press conference, which was very powerful,
00:18:00 --> 00:18:05 very well attended by Minnesotans of different backgrounds, it helped to set the record straight.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:13 By that night, the governor did a cell phone video calling for a local independent investigation.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:21 By the next morning, the mayor and local legislators held a press conference
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 calling for a local independent investigation.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:30 And by the afternoon, Attorney General Keith Ellison and County Attorney Mary
00:18:30 --> 00:18:37 Moriarty held a joint press conference saying that they would conduct an independent investigation.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:42 But in the midst of all of that, some of these elected officials were still
00:18:42 --> 00:18:47 begging the FBI to let the BCA back into their investigation.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:54 I personally feel that that's pandering to a corrupt agency that has no intentions
00:18:54 --> 00:18:57 of pursuing the truth or justice for Renee Good.
00:18:57 --> 00:19:02 And they need to use what they already have, which is several things.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:09 Videos of the incident, as well as several eyewitnesses who saw what happened.
00:19:09 --> 00:19:15 And from my perspective, Ken, make the case for probable cause to arrest Jonathan Ross.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:20 So that is where we are right now. We're also trying to get more answers from
00:19:20 --> 00:19:28 AG, Keith Ellison, and County Attorney Mary Moriarty regarding this local investigation
00:19:28 --> 00:19:29 they said they're going to do.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:35 Because the BCA put out a statement on January 9th saying, we're not going to
00:19:35 --> 00:19:36 conduct an investigation.
00:19:37 --> 00:19:41 They said, we'll collect evidence and we'll catalog it, but we're not going
00:19:41 --> 00:19:44 to do an investigation because the FBI shut us out.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:49 That's a problem because if they're not going to do the investigation, then who is?
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 And what is the timeline for this happening?
00:19:52 --> 00:19:58 Are they trying to wait three years for Trump to get out of office if he even gets out in three years?
00:19:58 --> 00:20:01 That's unacceptable justice delayed is justice
00:20:01 --> 00:20:04 denied so we want to see a timeline
00:20:04 --> 00:20:07 and we want some specifics around this
00:20:07 --> 00:20:11 investigation to make sure that it's not just window dressing and that it's
00:20:11 --> 00:20:16 taken seriously and I personally believe they already have enough information
00:20:16 --> 00:20:21 to address to arrest Jonathan Ross imagine if you or I had done what he did
00:20:21 --> 00:20:25 they wouldn't have waited for an investigation to take us into custody.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 So why are they using a double standard in
00:20:28 --> 00:20:32 the case of a well-trained law enforcement officer with
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 military experience and with border patrol experience who knew what he was doing
00:20:37 --> 00:20:43 and who engaged in the unjustified use of deadly force and allowing him to still
00:20:43 --> 00:20:49 be free almost a week after Renee Nicole Good was gunned down unnecessarily?
00:20:49 --> 00:20:56 Yeah, and one of the things I think was a big concern was the fact that,
00:20:57 --> 00:21:04 The BCA would not have access to the vehicle. They wouldn't have access to shell casings.
00:21:05 --> 00:21:09 You know, it's like if it was marked off anywhere, they wouldn't.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13 The way they made it sound is that they wouldn't even have access to the crime
00:21:13 --> 00:21:19 scene because the FBI had pretty much kept them out of the pocket.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:23 So I think that was, you know, from from my background in law enforcement,
00:21:23 --> 00:21:25 that was kind of, I think, the issue with them.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:31 But I agree with you that with all of the video footage that's out there,
00:21:31 --> 00:21:37 especially the district attorney and the local police department can basically
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 just go out to video and say, hey, look, you know, the county sheriff can say, hey, look,
00:21:42 --> 00:21:46 based on what we've seen on this video, we can we can push for an indictment,
00:21:46 --> 00:21:51 you know, and at least get that into the system.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 So, and I believe that's what y'all asking for.
00:21:54 --> 00:21:59 Now, Mr. Ross, I think you're being generous and saying he's well-trained just
00:21:59 --> 00:22:06 because he's had experience, but no well-trained officer will be holding a cell phone personally.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 You know, it was like, you know, if we didn't have body cameras,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 that was it. It was just you didn't have body cameras.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:17 It was, you know, so for us, you know, you couldn't use your cell phone.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:21 And then you had the cell phone in your dominant hand.
00:22:22 --> 00:22:27 And then before you decide to take action, you have to physically switch it,
00:22:27 --> 00:22:32 which all his video is the one, the one that he provided to this website.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:38 That video shows that he switched hands and then went for his weapon, right?
00:22:38 --> 00:22:42 And, you know, and said some things.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:47 Yeah, he had a verbal interaction, right? He had a verbal interaction with Renee
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 Good's wife. So some people are raising the question of, you know,
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 did her status as being LGBTQ play a role?
00:22:56 --> 00:23:00 Because the wife said to him, you know, go have lunch, big boy.
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 And that was immediately before he decided
00:23:03 --> 00:23:06 to open fire and Renee Goods said I'm not mad at
00:23:06 --> 00:23:09 you and she's you know just trying to reverse her
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 car slowly you know to get away from the
00:23:12 --> 00:23:14 scene and she was an American citizen but the
00:23:14 --> 00:23:18 reason I say that this person was well trained even if
00:23:18 --> 00:23:23 he didn't follow the training he has extensive military experience you know
00:23:23 --> 00:23:29 and also worked with the FBI as part of a joint task force and did border patrol
00:23:29 --> 00:23:34 in Texas and operated the machine gun during certain operations.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:39 So he had the requisite experience, whether he applied it in that circumstance
00:23:39 --> 00:23:41 or not, that's a different story.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:47 Now that's in contrast to some of these officers who might just be bounty hunters
00:23:47 --> 00:23:49 that they recruited for a paycheck,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:54 you know, to come out there and be deputized as an ICE agent, right?
00:23:54 --> 00:23:58 So that's why I think that distinction is important, that his experience meant
00:23:58 --> 00:24:00 he should have known better.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:03 He wasn't just a rookie in the field or some random person.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:09 So that is why I very much think that his experience is necessary and the fact
00:24:09 --> 00:24:15 that this was preventable based upon the experience that he already has in the field.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:21 Well, and there's a question about whether he should have even been out there
00:24:21 --> 00:24:25 considering that he had been injured like literally months before.
00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 Yes you know being in front of
00:24:30 --> 00:24:35 a car and trying to drag it yeah but right but he positioned himself in front
00:24:35 --> 00:24:40 of the car which just makes no sense and that somebody's backing out and I was
00:24:40 --> 00:24:45 I got into it with a guy that used to be a city councilman in Jackson he was
00:24:45 --> 00:24:47 a republic he's a republican.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:50 And he was you know trying to defend this
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 guy and I said the guy that held on
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 the scotty Scheffler's car I don't know you remember that the
00:24:55 --> 00:24:58 golfer that got stopped before he got in
00:24:58 --> 00:25:01 the tournament and got arrested yeah that officer had
00:25:01 --> 00:25:05 more damage he could not walk away when
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08 he got hit by Scheffler's car
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 this guy was walking down the street telling folks
00:25:11 --> 00:25:14 to go and all this stuff and and the other
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 question I had about this whole deal was why did
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 y'all leave the scene you didn't render aid that's a
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 requirement and and you and you and
00:25:24 --> 00:25:27 you left the scene you can't i have
00:25:27 --> 00:25:31 never been in a situation where gunfire
00:25:31 --> 00:25:34 has been even if you weren't the one that fired a gun if you
00:25:34 --> 00:25:37 were on the call you had to stay until
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40 one the emts got there
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 and in two whether it's internal affairs your
00:25:43 --> 00:25:46 supervisor whoever somebody had to come and get
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50 a statement from you a verbal statement and then
00:25:50 --> 00:25:53 you had to go back to the office and do a written statement right
00:25:53 --> 00:25:56 yeah but they had to they had to you had to be
00:25:56 --> 00:26:01 on the scene until you are told that you could leave and they right what i saw
00:26:01 --> 00:26:07 in the video they all scattered he walked away looking down at his cell phone
00:26:07 --> 00:26:13 and said call 9-1-1 yeah that is absolutely absurd after he looked at her body.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 I mean, just the whole thing is a hot mess.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:21 And the fact that you would have the federal government, the president.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 The vice president, the DHS secretary.
00:26:26 --> 00:26:32 Rubber stamping a killing of an innocent civilian is absolutely outrageous.
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 And people got to understand if it can happen to Renee Good,
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 it can happen to anyone. This is a what's coming.
00:26:37 --> 00:26:42 The only person that acted like initially that had some sense was Tom Holman,
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 of all people, and said, hey, before we say anything.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:50 Wait for the facts. Wait for the investigation. Exactly.
00:26:50 --> 00:26:56 And he was appalled, right, to hear J.D. Vance saying. And J.D. Vance is a lawyer.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:02 For him to say this officer has absolute immunity, he couldn't point to a single
00:27:02 --> 00:27:08 statute where that is written into law, literally making up stuff as the vice
00:27:08 --> 00:27:10 president of the United States.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:13 I feel that these should be impeachable offenses.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:19 At a minimum, Congress needs to take action in this situation.
00:27:19 --> 00:27:23 That's another thing we brought out during our press conference. Who's responsible?
00:27:23 --> 00:27:27 We know the Trump administration is responsible, but so is Congress.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 Congress is the one that authorized the creation of ICE.
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 They're the ones that are supposed to have federal oversight of ICE,
00:27:34 --> 00:27:36 and they're the ones who fund ICE.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:43 And the Trump administration has asked for an additional $100 million around these operations.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:48 And so Congress is just silent, twiddling their thumbs as these attacks are
00:27:48 --> 00:27:52 being levied, not only against immigrants, but against American citizens.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 That is absolutely absurd.
00:27:55 --> 00:28:00 I don't I don't know how these people sleep at night allowing this to happen.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:06 It's just it's just so beyond the realm of normalcy and acceptability. Well, you know.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:14 I did a whole commentary on Mike Johnson and the fact that he is clearly the worst.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:19 If he's not the worst, he's definitely the weakest Speaker of the House we ever had.
00:28:19 --> 00:28:23 Because I said of all the Republicans in America that could look at Donald Trump
00:28:23 --> 00:28:27 and tell him no would be Mike Johnson because he's the Speaker of the House.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:29 If something happens to Mr.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:32 Trump or something happens to Mr. Vance, he's the president. that.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:35 So if there's any Republican that's going to say, hey, look,
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 you can't do that, it would be him.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:41 But if he's not going to stand up for it, the rest of them are going to fall
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 in line. But anyway, let me go through some of the other stuff.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:50 So I'm going to go through the list of some of the things you all asked for.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 It's like the termination of ICE agents' employment, complete withdrawal of
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 ICE agents from the state of Minnesota,
00:28:56 --> 00:29:01 the establishment of a victim's compensation fund to provide immediate financial
00:29:01 --> 00:29:05 support, protection of journalists, independent media, legal observers,
00:29:05 --> 00:29:09 and peaceful protesters from intimidation, obstruction, and retaliation.
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 By the way, how's Mr. Pendleton doing? Is he okay?
00:29:13 --> 00:29:19 He has a boot on his foot. And so for those who don't know, King Demetrius Pendleton
00:29:19 --> 00:29:24 is an independent journalist, African-American man who's been on the front lines
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 for a long time, documenting our movement here in Minnesota.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 And he's been going out to the ICE protests documenting. And he has a vest that
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 he wears that says press across the front.
00:29:37 --> 00:29:40 That didn't stop him from being tear gassed last week.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:45 He was captured in an image, you know, you know, having, you know,
00:29:45 --> 00:29:51 his face covered with water or milk as he's trying to stop the burning from the tear gas.
00:29:52 --> 00:29:55 That photo was in NBC News and The Washington Post.
00:29:56 --> 00:30:03 And then just a couple of days later, ICE agents started shooting at the ground near him.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:08 And he got shot in the foot with either a rubber bullet or a marker round.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:09 And so he's out of commission.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 He's still showing up somehow, but he has a boot on his foot for the next four
00:30:15 --> 00:30:17 to six weeks as a result of being attacked.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:24 And folks need to understand that the attacks against journalists aren't happening in a vacuum, right?
00:30:24 --> 00:30:28 They happened during the uprising after George Floyd was killed.
00:30:28 --> 00:30:32 We had journalists shot with rubber bullets, hit with tear gas.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:40 Some have had their eyes shot out, you know, as a result of officers discriminately
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 using force against journalists.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:49 And so it is a problem that folks need to be aware of. We need an independent press.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:54 We need transparency when these things happen. But when you have a government
00:30:54 --> 00:30:58 that's hell-bent on lies and cover-ups and shielding the truth,
00:30:58 --> 00:31:03 of course they are going to allow for attacks against journalists instead of protection.
00:31:05 --> 00:31:13 So to bring it, to tie it in with George Floyd, this literally happened like,
00:31:14 --> 00:31:18 Half a mile, a few blocks away from when he was murdered.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 So tell me a little bit about that community. What is that community like?
00:31:23 --> 00:31:30 And, you know, and especially now within five years, you've had these two tragedies happen.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:34 Right. And these two tragedies are a part of several other tragedies.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:38 Remember, Philando Castile killed in 2016.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:45 2017, Justin Rusacek Damon, a white Australian national who lived in southwest
00:31:45 --> 00:31:50 Minneapolis, who was killed by a Minneapolis police officer who thought they
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52 were being ambushed and opened fire.
00:31:52 --> 00:32:00 So we've had a number of high-profile law enforcement killings in the state of Minnesota.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:05 And I think it's important for folks to understand that even though many hadn't
00:32:05 --> 00:32:09 heard about our community or thought about us until George Floyd,
00:32:10 --> 00:32:16 our movement for police accountability really began after Ferguson, Missouri in 2014.
00:32:17 --> 00:32:21 So we marched when Trayvon Martin was killed, but it still didn't lead to a movement.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:28 But after Mike Brown was killed, several of us went to Ferguson and participated
00:32:28 --> 00:32:29 in those demonstrations.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:35 And then we had the launch of our first Black Lives Matter chapter in November
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38 of 2014. I became their advisor during that time.
00:32:38 --> 00:32:45 And one of our first actions was in December of 2014 when we shut down the Mall
00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 of America, over 3 people.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:51 And then, you know, several of us were charged. I was charged with eight misdemeanors.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:57 As a result of all of that, the charges thankfully got dismissed because 11 of us were charged.
00:32:57 --> 00:33:02 It took almost a year. And literally the week before those charges,
00:33:02 --> 00:33:07 the week after those charges got dismissed, we had the killing of a young Black
00:33:07 --> 00:33:09 man by the name of Jamar Clark.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:13 That did make national news to some degree, but
00:33:13 --> 00:33:17 Because at the time I was the Minneapolis NAACP president,
00:33:17 --> 00:33:23 my involvement in the involvement of our chapter led to the national NAACP president
00:33:23 --> 00:33:29 coming here because we had launched an 18-day occupation outside of one of the
00:33:29 --> 00:33:32 police precincts in the Black community.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:38 And so that was unprecedented, right? And so some people knew about it and were
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 paying attention, but they didn't really start paying attention until after
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 Philando Castile was killed. in 2016.
00:33:45 --> 00:33:49 And so because our movement has been going on consistently and for so long,
00:33:49 --> 00:33:56 and because there are so many organizing groups here, whether it's, you know, BLM groups.
00:33:57 --> 00:34:02 Whether it's grassroots groups, immigrant rights groups, people have continued
00:34:02 --> 00:34:04 to organize throughout that time.
00:34:04 --> 00:34:08 And so even in this instance involving Renee Good, you know,
00:34:08 --> 00:34:14 there are various immigrant rights groups that set up training programs for
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 average ordinary citizens who want to get involved in helping to monitor ICE activity.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:26 So every day people can go to a Facebook page or get alerts and they find out
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 where ICE activity is happening and they show up and they show up with whistles
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 so that if they see ICE in the community,
00:34:33 --> 00:34:39 they start blowing the whistle so that the immigrants in the community are on
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41 alert and they can get to safety.
00:34:41 --> 00:34:47 So that's part of what had been happening, you know, on the day that Renee Good was killed.
00:34:47 --> 00:34:52 Folks had shown up in the community knowing there was ice activity and some
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55 of them used their vehicles to kind of block ice.
00:34:56 --> 00:35:00 And so that's where how Renee Good was parked. And when she was approached,
00:35:00 --> 00:35:03 she tried to back away and leave the scene.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:08 You know, and again, she's an American citizen. She wasn't the target of ICE enforcement.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:15 She should have been allowed to leave the scene and not executed by Jonathan Ross in that situation.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:20 So I hope that that kind of gives people a context for our community,
00:35:20 --> 00:35:25 the fact that it is very rich in activism and organizing.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:30 But the vast majority of our demonstrations are peaceful and have been peaceful,
00:35:30 --> 00:35:32 but they are pretty consistent.
00:35:32 --> 00:35:36 So are you familiar with
00:35:36 --> 00:35:39 uh us uh 18 usc
00:35:39 --> 00:35:42 111 uh can you refresh my
00:35:42 --> 00:35:49 recollection yeah that you know I I it's I'm a former legislator too so I can't
00:35:49 --> 00:35:53 remember all the the codes that are well that but this is the one that all these
00:35:53 --> 00:35:58 ice agents blurt out if you see any videos and they showed somebody videotaped
00:35:58 --> 00:36:00 them, they'll blurt this out at them, right?
00:36:00 --> 00:36:03 And this is the code section that says assaulting, resisting,
00:36:03 --> 00:36:06 or impeding certain officers or employees.
00:36:07 --> 00:36:11 And it says, in general, whoever forcibly assaults, resists, opposes,
00:36:11 --> 00:36:17 impedes, intimidates, or interferes with any person designated while engaged
00:36:17 --> 00:36:22 in or on account of the performance of official duties or forcibly assaults
00:36:22 --> 00:36:23 or intimidates any person.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:29 Designated in the performance of official duties
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32 during such person's term of service shall
00:36:32 --> 00:36:35 where the acts of the violation of section constitute
00:36:35 --> 00:36:38 only simple assault be fined under this title
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41 or in prison not more than one year or both
00:36:41 --> 00:36:44 right and then it says in all other
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 cases be fined under this title in prison not more than three
00:36:47 --> 00:36:51 years or both and then is it that's that's
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54 exactly my point it's like they they talk all
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57 this noise about oh 11 uh 11 18
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 uh usc 111 you know they'll start yelling at people
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 and it's like dude that's a misdemeanor so my question
00:37:03 --> 00:37:10 is one did Renee good violate that section based on the video accounts that
00:37:10 --> 00:37:17 you saw well from my perspective if she had violated the section then that should
00:37:17 --> 00:37:22 have been a citation they could have seen her license plate, written it down.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:28 And, you know, connected with whomever was going to enforce that statute,
00:37:28 --> 00:37:32 you know, and it could have been dealt with through the criminal justice process.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:40 We don't have the death penalty in Minnesota, but that's essentially the question to suspect it to.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:46 My follow-up was going to be, it's like, I've never known a misdemeanor to warrant a death penalty?
00:37:46 --> 00:37:52 Well, except in the case of George Floyd, because that alleged $20 counterfeit
00:37:52 --> 00:37:57 bill that he used in the store, that would have been a petty misdemeanor.
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00 But again, it resulted in the death penalty.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:05 So we got to look at how these laws are being applied.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:10 And the fact that for some people, it's not just a matter of paying a fine or
00:38:10 --> 00:38:13 appearing in court, It is a life or death situation.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:20 And typically, law enforcement exercises their power on the streets,
00:38:20 --> 00:38:25 you know, as opposed to it being exercised in a court of law like it is supposed to be.
00:38:25 --> 00:38:34 So the coalition that's been formed has publicly asked that people outside of the Minneapolis-St.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 Paul community should refrain from intervening, organizing, or traveling to
00:38:39 --> 00:38:44 the state unless explicitly invited by impacted communities and local leadership.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:50 Uncoordinated outside involvement, risk disruption, escalation, and harm.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:56 That makes sense to me, but it also conveys that the situation there is still pretty precarious.
00:38:56 --> 00:38:58 Is that your assessment on that?
00:38:58 --> 00:39:03 Well, we were very specific when we held, well, even in our press release,
00:39:04 --> 00:39:06 right? We did name at least one name.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:11 And then at our press conference, you know, when I spoke about this part of
00:39:11 --> 00:39:16 our press release, You know, I named Al Sharpton, Jamal Bryant,
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 and Tamika Mallory, asking them to stay out of Minnesota.
00:39:21 --> 00:39:26 Now, since that time, we have been in communication with Reverend Al Sharpton
00:39:26 --> 00:39:28 about the concerns that we had.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:33 And they stemmed from, you know, early when, after George Floyd was killed,
00:39:33 --> 00:39:36 Reverend Sharpton came into the community.
00:39:36 --> 00:39:40 It was kind of like a helicopter situation. You know, Ben Crump brought him
00:39:40 --> 00:39:46 into the community, Attorney Ben Crump, and he, you know, eulogized George Floyd,
00:39:46 --> 00:39:51 eulogized Daunte Wright after they were murdered by police.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:56 And I believe even Amir Locke, if I remember correctly.
00:39:56 --> 00:40:02 And so there are concerns when you have people who have not been involved in
00:40:02 --> 00:40:08 the organizing here, just sort of helicoptering in and not always respecting local leadership.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:14 And so we just kind of let it slide when it happened in 2020 and 2021.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:18 We were still, in 2022, we were still cordial,
00:40:18 --> 00:40:22 you know, with Reverend Al Sharpton, even though we felt like,
00:40:22 --> 00:40:27 you know, it was kind of bypassing local leadership, people who still have to
00:40:27 --> 00:40:31 stay here and pick up the pieces after you fly into town,
00:40:31 --> 00:40:36 have meetings with whomever, whether we're involved or not, and then you leave.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:40 And so one of the things that happened in the interim, I don't know if you're
00:40:40 --> 00:40:43 aware of this, or I think we talked about this before.
00:40:43 --> 00:40:47 You know, I'm one of the three co-founders of the National Target Boycott,
00:40:47 --> 00:40:50 which we launched on February 1st.
00:40:50 --> 00:40:56 Target is a Minnesota-based company, and they made some specific promises after
00:40:56 --> 00:41:01 George Floyd was killed, and they looked like a leader, you know, on racial justice.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:06 And they got a lot of our attention, you know, in terms of patronizing them,
00:41:07 --> 00:41:08 seeing them as a leader in diversity.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 They pledged $2.1 billion after George Floyd was killed,
00:41:13 --> 00:41:18 saying that the funds would be used to improve the Black customer shopping experience,
00:41:18 --> 00:41:24 to get more Black brands on the shelves, and to improve their hiring and promotion
00:41:24 --> 00:41:31 practices when it comes to Black employees, as well as improving their supplier diversity network.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:34 We thought all of those were very laudable goals.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:39 But fast forward to January 2024, as Donald Trump takes office,
00:41:40 --> 00:41:43 immediately he starts attacking diversity, equity and inclusion.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:50 And almost immediately, Target capitulates to Donald Trump and puts out an announcement
00:41:50 --> 00:41:55 that very same week saying that they were rolling back diversity, equity and inclusion.
00:41:55 --> 00:42:00 So as Minnesota-based activists, and particularly around police accountability.
00:42:01 --> 00:42:08 We held a press conference calling for a nationwide boycott of Target that began on February 1st.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:10 It has been extremely successful.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:13 I've seen Target's stock prices drop.
00:42:13 --> 00:42:18 You've seen them have consecutive weeks of declining foot traffic,
00:42:18 --> 00:42:23 consecutive quarters of declining revenues.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:26 They had to uproot their CEO
00:42:26 --> 00:42:29 and they have a new one who's taking
00:42:29 --> 00:42:32 that position next month they placed the
00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 old one as the board chairman which I think is a mistake but
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 the point is that the boycott has been extremely successful
00:42:39 --> 00:42:43 however in the midst of that the
00:42:43 --> 00:42:50 group that approached us consisted of Tamika Mallory Senator Nina Turner and
00:42:50 --> 00:42:56 so-called Pastor Jamal Bryant saying that they wanted to collaborate with us
00:42:56 --> 00:43:02 and help build a national coalition to amplify our efforts to hold Target accountable.
00:43:02 --> 00:43:07 But really, as we started working with them, we realized their agenda was actually
00:43:07 --> 00:43:09 to co-opt and hijack the boycott.
00:43:10 --> 00:43:14 In the midst of all that, suddenly you have Jamal Bryant, who's supposed to
00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 be following our lead for the indefinite nationwide boycott,
00:43:18 --> 00:43:23 boycott, suddenly launch a 40-day target fast aimed at the faith community.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:27 And I said to him, what's the difference between a fast and a boycott?
00:43:27 --> 00:43:31 I've never heard of this fast that you claim you're doing during Lent.
00:43:31 --> 00:43:36 And I said, and then what happens after the 40 days? Because as an organizer,
00:43:36 --> 00:43:38 you know it's a marathon and not a sprint.
00:43:38 --> 00:43:42 You're not going to get a company to give in to your demands after 40 days.
00:43:42 --> 00:43:46 And so he had set up a website. He used some of our demands,
00:43:47 --> 00:43:52 our talking points that we put out there and essentially crowned himself as
00:43:52 --> 00:43:55 the leader of the Target boycott, using CNN,
00:43:55 --> 00:43:58 The Breakfast Club, and Roland Martin to do it.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:05 And so from that point, we had to cut ties with them. I called them out for what they were doing.
00:44:05 --> 00:44:10 I just felt it was despicable that they lacked integrity and that it was disrespectful
00:44:10 --> 00:44:17 to people in Minnesota who had endured the killing of George Floyd and fought
00:44:17 --> 00:44:20 for justice and who were continuing to fight for justice.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:26 To have these big name folks, you know, from out of town, essentially trying
00:44:26 --> 00:44:30 to co-op the real and genuine movement work that we were doing.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:38 And so in the midst of all that, you then had a photo that was released of Reverend
00:44:38 --> 00:44:42 Al Sharpton posing with the CEO of Target.
00:44:43 --> 00:44:47 And he hadn't reached out to us or contacted us. And we're thinking,
00:44:48 --> 00:44:50 you have nothing to do with this Target boycott.
00:44:50 --> 00:44:55 Why would you be in a picture with this white man while we're sitting here trying
00:44:55 --> 00:44:57 to hold this company accountable?
00:44:57 --> 00:45:03 And so that had never gotten resolved. We just didn't understand why are these
00:45:03 --> 00:45:09 people from out of state with these big platforms who have so-called leadership
00:45:09 --> 00:45:11 ability and civil rights?
00:45:11 --> 00:45:14 Why are you coming in picking off
00:45:14 --> 00:45:17 what Minnesota is doing or tagging along
00:45:17 --> 00:45:21 to what we're doing here you know simply
00:45:21 --> 00:45:24 because you know people may not know us as well
00:45:24 --> 00:45:27 because so much of our work is concentrated here
00:45:27 --> 00:45:30 and so what happened after this whole
00:45:30 --> 00:45:34 thing and our press conference because we were the first in the country for
00:45:34 --> 00:45:40 black leaders to be leading on an ICE issue right and I felt that that must
00:45:40 --> 00:45:43 have opened the door for people to feel comfortable because suddenly we got
00:45:43 --> 00:45:47 word that Reverend Al Sharpton wanted to come to Minnesota.
00:45:48 --> 00:45:53 And when I found out about it, I said, absolutely not, along with the other
00:45:53 --> 00:45:58 co-founders of the Target boycott because of all that history and the fact that,
00:45:58 --> 00:46:02 you know, we were disrespected as local leaders.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:08 And so word got to, you know, Reverend Al Sharpton as a result of our press
00:46:08 --> 00:46:11 conference, press release messages, I guess, getting to him.
00:46:11 --> 00:46:16 And someone from his team actually reached out to me on Saturday night.
00:46:16 --> 00:46:21 And then I actually had a conversation with Reverend Al Sharpton and laid all this out.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:27 And he apologized, you know, during that conversation for what happened.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:35 And then he also said that he also got duped by Jamal Bryant because after Target
00:46:35 --> 00:46:38 CEO contacted him about meeting.
00:46:39 --> 00:46:42 He said, I won't meet without the organizers. So, of course,
00:46:42 --> 00:46:47 he went to Jamal Bryant as a fellow minister and someone who positioned himself.
00:46:47 --> 00:46:52 He went to him and he was also at that meeting, but he pretended that he wasn't.
00:46:52 --> 00:46:53 That's why he wasn't in the picture.
00:46:54 --> 00:46:56 So it caused a lot of confusion.
00:46:57 --> 00:47:02 And then later we even wrote to the leadership of the National Baptist Convention
00:47:02 --> 00:47:08 because we found out that they accepted $300 from Target in the midst of this boycott.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:15 And we laid out for them, look, Jamal Bryant is not the leader of this boycott. He has no integrity.
00:47:16 --> 00:47:19 This is how this boycott began. These are our intentions.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:23 And then we asked them to return the money. Although we knew they wouldn't,
00:47:23 --> 00:47:29 we still use it as an opportunity to call them to account and also to educate
00:47:29 --> 00:47:34 them about how Target has impacted this community in Minnesota.
00:47:34 --> 00:47:40 We said in addition to rolling back DEI, which then if they hadn't been held accountable,
00:47:40 --> 00:47:45 that would have given every country and every company in America permission
00:47:45 --> 00:47:51 to capitulate to Donald Trump because Target was seen as essentially a leader
00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 of corporate diversity.
00:47:55 --> 00:47:59 You know, and so we told them about that, but we also attached a Target's receipts
00:47:59 --> 00:48:03 brief where we laid out the fact that Target.
00:48:05 --> 00:48:10 Gave money to Amy Klobuchar's office. Amy Klobuchar is a congresswoman now.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:14 But before that, she was the county attorney for Hennepin County.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:17 And she ran a tough on crime campaign.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:22 Target gave her office money during that time, as well as the prosecutor after
00:48:22 --> 00:48:24 her. And they said, we want convictions.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:30 And there is a young Black man who, as a teenager, was wrongfully convicted.
00:48:30 --> 00:48:37 And two forensic analysts from Target testified at his trial with testimony
00:48:37 --> 00:48:39 that was damning but false.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:44 And this young man is still in prison to this day for murders he did not commit.
00:48:45 --> 00:48:49 And so that was what we laid out to say, and there are several other young Black
00:48:49 --> 00:48:55 men, some of whom we fought for their release from prison, who were wrongfully
00:48:55 --> 00:48:59 convicted under this whole regime, connected to Target,
00:48:59 --> 00:49:04 connected to Amy Klobuchar, and connected to the prosecutor after her, Mike Freeman.
00:49:04 --> 00:49:11 And so when you have these outside leaders who helicopter in or who misuse their
00:49:11 --> 00:49:18 power because they think they have a larger platform and their disrespect for the local organizers,
00:49:18 --> 00:49:22 at some point you have to put your foot down. So that's what I did.
00:49:22 --> 00:49:28 And that's what my comrades did. And that's what led to the conversation with Al Sharpton.
00:49:28 --> 00:49:35 And so on Sunday night, he had Ben Crump on his Politics Nation show on MS Now
00:49:35 --> 00:49:36 or whatever it's called.
00:49:36 --> 00:49:41 And he actually apologized to me and the other local activists in Minnesota.
00:49:41 --> 00:49:45 And so we are now in communication, you know, with his people because we've
00:49:45 --> 00:49:46 been able to clear the air.
00:49:46 --> 00:49:51 But as far as Jamal Bryant, Nina Turner and Tamika Mallory, they are not welcome
00:49:51 --> 00:49:52 in the state of Minnesota.
00:49:53 --> 00:50:00 Just if people understood the lack of integrity, the lies of manipulation,
00:50:00 --> 00:50:04 they would understand why we are joining a clear line in the sand.
00:50:06 --> 00:50:09 All what does it say? All skin folk and kin folk.
00:50:09 --> 00:50:14 Yes ma'am and i you know i girl you you didn't gave me a whole idea for a whole
00:50:14 --> 00:50:20 podcast about collaboration and all that stuff look collaboration with air quotes
00:50:20 --> 00:50:21 that's right that's right,
00:50:22 --> 00:50:26 going on here they wouldn't even be trying to know nothing about Minnesota as
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 they say oh child let me tell you my story no I we ain't got time for all that
00:50:30 --> 00:50:33 but you know and I you know I've
00:50:33 --> 00:50:36 been one of those people that have been faithful, not going to Target.
00:50:37 --> 00:50:40 But I really...
00:50:40 --> 00:50:42 I really appreciate your candor
00:50:42 --> 00:50:46 and honesty on that, because I was kind of thinking a different thing.
00:50:46 --> 00:50:51 Like, yeah, I don't know if we want you all to come in and stir up some stuff,
00:50:51 --> 00:50:53 but it's like. Yeah, I mean, that either.
00:50:53 --> 00:50:57 But we're mostly talking about white supremacists, you know,
00:50:57 --> 00:51:01 Proud Boys, people who came in after George Floyd and wreaked havoc,
00:51:01 --> 00:51:03 shooting at people, putting signs.
00:51:03 --> 00:51:08 And so that we talked about that to outside agitators, but we also talked about
00:51:08 --> 00:51:13 so-called outside national leaders who typically have a completely different
00:51:13 --> 00:51:19 agenda and how they use their power and their influence and media connections, you know,
00:51:19 --> 00:51:22 to erase the local organizing that's happening here.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:26 So it's twofold in terms of what we were saying.
00:51:27 --> 00:51:30 Yeah, and I appreciate that. And I also appreciate the time.
00:51:30 --> 00:51:32 I've got a couple more questions and I'm gonna let you go.
00:51:33 --> 00:51:37 How do you respond to people who say that here we are expressing outrage over
00:51:37 --> 00:51:41 the death of a white woman, but nobody was talking about Keith Porter,
00:51:42 --> 00:51:46 a black man who was killed by an off-duty ICE agent on New Year's Eve in Los Angeles?
00:51:47 --> 00:51:51 Well, I would say there is a difference between when things happen in Minnesota
00:51:51 --> 00:51:54 and when they happen in other places.
00:51:54 --> 00:52:01 So if you because of our longstanding history of organizing and how many high
00:52:01 --> 00:52:06 profile and they became high profile because of the organizing and the pressure
00:52:06 --> 00:52:10 that we apply strategically when these things happen.
00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 In many other communities, something happens. People trust the government.
00:52:14 --> 00:52:18 They trust law enforcement. And they say, let the process play out.
00:52:18 --> 00:52:20 Well, we don't get down like that in the Twin Cities.
00:52:21 --> 00:52:25 We already know we got to do this. We got to do that. Even when George Floyd was killed.
00:52:26 --> 00:52:30 I don't know if you know the story of that, but I think we may have talked about
00:52:30 --> 00:52:36 it where an activist whose husband had been killed years prior by police was
00:52:36 --> 00:52:41 the one who tagged me and a few other activists to say a black man got killed today by MPD.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:45 They either choked him or crushed his throat. So when I saw that,
00:52:46 --> 00:52:48 I didn't just say, oh, it's Memorial Day. I'm taking a day off.
00:52:49 --> 00:52:50 No, I said, wait a minute.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:55 What happened? So I looked online to verify. I saw nothing.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:00 So my next step, I called the chief of police, Madeira Arredondo,
00:53:00 --> 00:53:02 who was our first black police chief.
00:53:02 --> 00:53:07 He answered the phone late at night. And I said, Rondo, it's like,
00:53:07 --> 00:53:09 can I ask you a question? Did MPD kill someone today?
00:53:10 --> 00:53:14 And he said, no, Ms. Nekima, they didn't kill anyone today. And I said, are you sure?
00:53:15 --> 00:53:19 And he said, well, somebody died in police custody as a result of a medical emergency.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:23 And I said, have you seen video of the incident? And he said,
00:53:23 --> 00:53:28 no, I just sent it to the BCA to investigate. And I said, you need to see some
00:53:28 --> 00:53:31 video immediately because this is what the community is saying.
00:53:31 --> 00:53:34 And I said, I'll call you back. I got up the phone with him.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:36 I went to social media to let the community know.
00:53:37 --> 00:53:40 This is what Ashley said happened. This is what the chief said happened.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:42 Now we need to see some video.
00:53:42 --> 00:53:47 Then I was tagged in that video by Darnella Frazier, that bystander video that
00:53:47 --> 00:53:48 captured what happened.
00:53:48 --> 00:53:55 So I shared that video after witnessing a murder and then I sent it to the chief and called him back.
00:53:55 --> 00:53:59 That's when he saw what really went on for the first time.
00:54:00 --> 00:54:05 And he actually documents this in his book that came out in May of 2025,
00:54:05 --> 00:54:10 talking about all of this, including my call to him, everything that happened afterwards.
00:54:11 --> 00:54:15 So imagine, you know, we're in any other community. People just say,
00:54:15 --> 00:54:19 oh, something happened and just let it ride and wait for this.
00:54:19 --> 00:54:23 The system will never proactively address something like this.
00:54:23 --> 00:54:28 They will never proactively investigate themselves or hold themselves accountable.
00:54:28 --> 00:54:34 So just like with Target, you know, people said, well, why didn't y'all go after Walmart or Amazon?
00:54:34 --> 00:54:37 Well, they're not based in Minnesota, but Target is.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:41 So we're not going to let a Minnesota-based company get away with this.
00:54:42 --> 00:54:47 The same with Renee Good being one of ours in our community and knowing we have
00:54:47 --> 00:54:53 the power to amplify this and to get in the streets, to hold elected officials accountable.
00:54:53 --> 00:54:58 I don't know how organized other communities are. So I can't speak to that.
00:54:58 --> 00:55:03 And we can't be expected to every time something happens everywhere else in
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 another community to helicopter in and say, this is what you should do. if we're not invited in.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:13 The most we'd be able to do is post something on social media without really
00:55:13 --> 00:55:18 knowing if there's nothing organized by that community to let the world know.
00:55:18 --> 00:55:23 So I can't, so it has nothing to do with us that Renee Nicole Good is a white
00:55:23 --> 00:55:29 woman and everything to do with the fact that it happened here at Ground Zero
00:55:29 --> 00:55:35 where we don't allow stuff like that to just happen and there's no noise whatsoever.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:40 However, we are highly organized and we are effective and we are persistent
00:55:40 --> 00:55:45 like a dog with a bone till we start getting the responses that our community deserves.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:51 Laura Hernandez of Freedom for Immigrants said, make no mistake,
00:55:51 --> 00:55:53 ICE's terror is anything but rogue.
00:55:54 --> 00:55:59 The agency is operating exactly as intended and as it has for decades,
00:55:59 --> 00:56:03 only now with a record high level of resources and unfettered power.
00:56:03 --> 00:56:09 As we have witnessed across this sprawling yet secretive detention system for
00:56:09 --> 00:56:12 decades, ICE and DHS violence is calculated,
00:56:13 --> 00:56:17 systemic, and central to the agency's broader missions of instilling fear in
00:56:17 --> 00:56:21 communities and destroying families through detention, deportation,
00:56:21 --> 00:56:23 and increasingly death.
00:56:23 --> 00:56:29 Now, do you and the coalition agree with that assessment?
00:56:29 --> 00:56:34 And if so, how can we as Americans combat or counter that?
00:56:35 --> 00:56:38 I do agree with that assessment, but I think that one thing that's important
00:56:38 --> 00:56:44 to remember is the fact that you have Donald Trump in control of this country.
00:56:44 --> 00:56:50 And he has put people in positions of power who do not have integrity,
00:56:50 --> 00:56:54 but who have allegiance to Donald Trump and his agenda.
00:56:54 --> 00:57:01 So that is one of the things that makes the behavior of ICE different than what
00:57:01 --> 00:57:05 we know from the past way that they have operated.
00:57:06 --> 00:57:12 And the fact that Congress is not taking any action is another part of this whole equation.
00:57:13 --> 00:57:17 Again, Congress authorized the creation of ICE.
00:57:18 --> 00:57:22 They fund ICE. They're supposed to provide oversight of ICE.
00:57:22 --> 00:57:28 If Congress was balanced and effective in doing its job, we wouldn't even be here right now.
00:57:28 --> 00:57:34 They would have started raining in ICE and Donald Trump the moment that they invaded the first U.S.
00:57:34 --> 00:57:38 City and started also targeting Americans alongside of immigrants.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:44 But they didn't do that. They remained silent. And now things are way out of control.
00:57:45 --> 00:57:50 You know, with the violence, with them just being able to send thousands,
00:57:50 --> 00:57:55 you know, of ICE agents here, that we got more coming, even as we're talking right now.
00:57:56 --> 00:58:00 And so we have to get Congress to take action.
00:58:00 --> 00:58:05 We also will have an opportunity during the midterms to help shift the balance
00:58:05 --> 00:58:08 of power away from the Republican Party.
00:58:08 --> 00:58:10 And I hate to talk about it in
00:58:10 --> 00:58:16 partisan terms, but the reality is that the Republican Party is complicit.
00:58:17 --> 00:58:22 In the actions and the tyranny and the authoritarianism of the Trump administration.
00:58:22 --> 00:58:26 And in some ways, the Democratic Party is complicit through their silence.
00:58:27 --> 00:58:32 We should, every day, we should see something that a Democratic congressperson
00:58:32 --> 00:58:36 is doing to try to fight back against the Trump administration.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:41 Instead of coming before the public, crying or acting like they have no power,
00:58:41 --> 00:58:42 no one wants to hear that.
00:58:42 --> 00:58:46 You're collecting a paycheck, you're getting a pension, you have security and
00:58:46 --> 00:58:48 protection, and you want us to feel sorry for you?
00:58:49 --> 00:58:52 Absolutely not. Do your damn job or get out the way.
00:58:53 --> 00:58:58 So both parties are responsible for what's going on, but one party in particular
00:58:58 --> 00:59:06 is empowering and enabling the President of the United States to get away with abuse of power,
00:59:07 --> 00:59:11 physical abuse of American citizens and immigrants, tyranny,
00:59:11 --> 00:59:13 authoritarianism, and oppression.
00:59:13 --> 00:59:18 And they need to be held accountable for what they're doing, period.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:22 So I'm going to close out my questioning with this.
00:59:22 --> 00:59:28 And in the midst of all of this stuff, it might be the toughest question I've asked you today.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:33 Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
00:59:34 --> 00:59:40 Our ancestors went through far worse. somehow they found a way to organize,
00:59:41 --> 00:59:47 to fight back, to resist, and to plant the seeds for future generations.
00:59:47 --> 00:59:52 And that's how we're here. If they could endure hundreds of years of slavery
00:59:52 --> 00:59:58 and all the dehumanization, the brutality, the way that laws were weaponized
00:59:58 --> 01:00:00 against them, law enforcement,
01:00:00 --> 01:00:06 white men being deputized against them, separation of families trying to strip
01:00:06 --> 01:00:10 us of our language our culture and our heritage and we're still here.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:16 That's what gives me hope. And we have the same responsibility to future generations
01:00:16 --> 01:00:21 to stand up and fight back and resist and plant the seeds for hope and change.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:26 If people want to get involved, how can they get in touch with you?
01:00:26 --> 01:00:31 Or have y'all even got a name for the coalition or y'all just?
01:00:31 --> 01:00:34 No we're just ad hoc right
01:00:34 --> 01:00:37 when we need to all of us work together
01:00:37 --> 01:00:41 you know like because our movement never stops whether
01:00:41 --> 01:00:47 the net the nation is looking at us or not we're still doing the work so we
01:00:47 --> 01:00:53 have ad hoc you know coalitions that form based on what the issues are but the
01:00:53 --> 01:00:56 the best way to get a hold of me I would say is through Instagram at Nekima
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 l you know I post there occasionally,
01:00:59 --> 01:01:03 but most of the people follow me on Facebook because that's where I might write
01:01:03 --> 01:01:10 a long post or give context or go live, you know, but Nekima L on Instagram works as well.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:14 Well, Nekima Levy Armstrong, thank you for taking the time to do this.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:19 I, you know, when this went down, I reached out to you right away because I
01:01:19 --> 01:01:25 wanted to, you know, and I'm very fortunate that somebody like you that is really
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 active in the community and really has a heart for the community.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:30 That I was able to reach out to you.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:34 And I'm glad that you were able to take the time to do this. So thank you so much.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:39 I appreciate you and just keep sending the newsletters to me.
01:01:39 --> 01:01:40 I'm glad you got me on the mail list.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:43 So just keep keeping me informed and I'll let my people know what's happening.
01:01:44 --> 01:01:49 Thank you. I will. I have one coming tomorrow, so I'll send it out today,
01:01:49 --> 01:01:53 and I'll make sure that you get it for a press conference tomorrow for women
01:01:53 --> 01:01:57 and mothers to call for justice for Renee Good,
01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 because this was an act of violence against a woman.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:04 And then the way that women and expected mothers are being treated in ICE custody
01:02:04 --> 01:02:05 and law enforcement custody.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:08 So we'll be calling that out tomorrow during a press conference.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:09 I'll make sure you get it.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:16 All right, guys. Thank you so much. And we'll catch y'all on the other side. Thank you.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:42 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Kem-Laurin Lubin.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:48 Kem Laurin Lubin's research focuses on computational rhetoric,
01:02:48 --> 01:02:53 which explores how technology influences communication and decision making.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:58 Kim examines the intersection of emerging technologies, human agency,
01:02:58 --> 01:03:03 and the societal impacts of artificial intelligence and data-driven systems,
01:03:03 --> 01:03:07 with a strong emphasis on ethics and equity.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:12 A key part of her work is the development of ethotic heuristics,
01:03:12 --> 01:03:17 a framework designed to ensure that technological systems respect human dignity
01:03:17 --> 01:03:23 and accurately represent and characterize the ethos part, peoples.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:28 Kim's professional background includes leadership roles in design and innovation
01:03:28 --> 01:03:32 at global corporations like BlackBerry, Siemens, and Autodesk,
01:03:32 --> 01:03:38 giving her a unique perspective that bridges academic research and real-world applications.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:42 Her book, Design Heuristics for Emerging Technologies,
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 AI, Data, and Human-Centered Futures, Considerations for the Rights of Women,
01:03:49 --> 01:03:55 with UWP Books, explores how technology can be designed to empower individuals
01:03:55 --> 01:03:57 while addressing broader societal changes.
01:03:57 --> 01:04:02 With her blend of academic expertise and industrial experience.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:09 Kim is driving important conversations about ethical, human-centered approaches to technology.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:15 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
01:04:15 --> 01:04:19 on this podcast, Kem Laurin Lubin.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:34 Dr. Kem Laurin Lubin. How you doing?
01:04:35 --> 01:04:41 I'm doing good. How are you? I'm doing fine. I am very excited to have you on.
01:04:42 --> 01:04:47 As most of my listeners know, I tend to get most of my guests,
01:04:47 --> 01:04:50 if not all of them, are smarter than I am.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:56 And I think I can definitely say that about you because you delve into a world
01:04:56 --> 01:05:03 that very few of us really understand, but yet it's a part of our day-to-day lives.
01:05:04 --> 01:05:09 And that's dealing with AI. And so I'm going to ask you later on,
01:05:09 --> 01:05:16 as we get this interview started, why did you decide to go down that road?
01:05:16 --> 01:05:19 But before we do that, I kind of do a couple
01:05:19 --> 01:05:23 of icebreakers to kind of get the conversation going and so
01:05:23 --> 01:05:27 the first icebreaker I'd normally do is a quote so
01:05:27 --> 01:05:30 so I want you to respond to this quote the hottest
01:05:30 --> 01:05:34 the hottest places in hell are reserved
01:05:34 --> 01:05:37 for those who in times of great moral
01:05:37 --> 01:05:40 crisis maintain their neutrality what
01:05:40 --> 01:05:44 does that quote mean to you it really means to
01:05:44 --> 01:05:47 stand by and do nothing in critical moments
01:05:47 --> 01:05:53 that is for me personally as well the greatest crime of any that any human being
01:05:53 --> 01:05:59 can commit and I think it's so relevant to what's happening right now in this
01:05:59 --> 01:06:04 moment yeah that's what it means to me yeah I I agree with that.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:08 All right. So now the next one is called 20 questions.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:14 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 13.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:21 All right. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?
01:06:23 --> 01:06:27 I do not think the news is unbiased. Interestingly enough, I taught a class
01:06:27 --> 01:06:30 last year around media sovereignty.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:36 And media right now is the new nuclear weapon, right?
01:06:36 --> 01:06:41 We all carry this mediation tool, the mobile phone, and media comes through that.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:49 And so it has been, I think, hijacked by those with political and power motives.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:53 And so given that it is operating an undergirded in that system,
01:06:53 --> 01:06:56 I don't think it is unbiased.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:59 And even for those who claim to, you know, just bring the news,
01:06:59 --> 01:07:03 and we'll talk about this, of course, my background is in rhetoric.
01:07:03 --> 01:07:10 We are all motivated. So it is, I think, impossible to have unbiased media. Yeah.
01:07:11 --> 01:07:17 What got you into artificial intelligence, AI?
01:07:18 --> 01:07:22 How did Dr. Kem Laurin Lubin
01:07:22 --> 01:07:28 decide this is the path I want to go and contribute to society about.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:35 Yeah, I didn't get into it. It got into me. So a little bit of my background,
01:07:35 --> 01:07:40 I think it's very important for me to frame where I came from and why I arrived at this point.
01:07:41 --> 01:07:48 So about 25 years ago, I took a course called The Metaphors of Computing, and it stayed with me.
01:07:48 --> 01:07:53 I was very interested as a Black woman back then. I wanted to write games.
01:07:53 --> 01:07:58 I wanted to write things like, how do you climb ladders in a game?
01:07:58 --> 01:07:59 You know, how do you do that?
01:07:59 --> 01:08:03 I wanted to be able to design the affordances to allow people to navigate in digital spaces.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:07 And as you can imagine, being somebody growing up in Canada from the Caribbean,
01:08:08 --> 01:08:09 that was a white boys game.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:15 Like I just couldn't get in no matter what I tried. And so I ended up just going
01:08:15 --> 01:08:19 on to do a master's degree and finishing that and thinking, OK, what can I do?
01:08:19 --> 01:08:22 And I was actually, I had the craziest story.
01:08:22 --> 01:08:25 This is not where I was supposed to end up.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:30 But I was with a friend, and she randomly applied for me a job in the U.S. in Princeton.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:36 And it was a German company that was looking for an opportunity to localize their software.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:42 And given that I had a background in language and rhetoric, I got the job out of 439 applicants.
01:08:42 --> 01:08:47 So here I am. I want to write games. I end up in research in Princeton.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:52 And that was design research. And so I stayed in that space.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:56 I will say, let's just go up to 2011, thereabouts.
01:08:56 --> 01:09:00 And I arrived at the space where I'm leading the top mobile phone company design
01:09:00 --> 01:09:03 research team in the world, BlackBerry.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:07 And a lot of this had to do with leaving the country and coming back,
01:09:07 --> 01:09:08 and suddenly I was a star.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:13 Nonetheless, I get into this space, and this is just really at the onset where
01:09:13 --> 01:09:18 we were making the BlackBerrys and also collecting massive amounts of data, right?
01:09:19 --> 01:09:23 And so that's sad. That sort of crystallized in that space.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:26 And from there, I went to another company. I will not say the name right here
01:09:26 --> 01:09:34 because this is where I think my whole thought process around human agency started coming into play.
01:09:34 --> 01:09:38 So this is around circa 2011. I'm working for this company.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:44 And around 2015, I led what was called then the first cloud migration from,
01:09:45 --> 01:09:46 and you can imagine this.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:51 I think you remember when you bought an application, you bought it on a CD. You inserted it, right?
01:09:51 --> 01:09:55 You installed it, and then you had it on your computer. So at the time that
01:09:55 --> 01:10:00 I was leading this massive modernization project as a design researcher at this
01:10:00 --> 01:10:02 top-notch company, American company.
01:10:03 --> 01:10:08 I began to notice something. So we had moved from the city to server spaces
01:10:08 --> 01:10:09 to actually operate our software.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:16 And this is where I think I woke up from that dream of working in tech,
01:10:16 --> 01:10:21 because a lot of what happens in that space in tech is that we send these tools
01:10:21 --> 01:10:26 to beta in what I want to call the global south, right? We send these tools.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:31 And what we do, and we do that, especially when we're going to having our data
01:10:31 --> 01:10:38 stored on servers, we were using, without consent, the data of individuals from
01:10:38 --> 01:10:41 the Global South to train our machines, right?
01:10:41 --> 01:10:46 So we call that, at the time, proceduralism. But as a design researcher,
01:10:46 --> 01:10:51 I was there on behalf of the user, the end user, to say, how does this particular
01:10:51 --> 01:10:53 thing that we're doing cause harm to the user?
01:10:53 --> 01:10:55 I was basically immediately honored.
01:10:56 --> 01:11:01 Don't talk about these things. We're getting the data that we need to train the machine. So...
01:11:02 --> 01:11:06 I, you know, when I finished my master's 20 years prior, I actually got into
01:11:06 --> 01:11:13 the PhD program and I wanted to, at that time, study rhetoric and agency in computer systems.
01:11:14 --> 01:11:20 But I ended up not doing that. Fast forward, here I am at the cusp of an industry where it mattered.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:24 I had gone on to have a family and that was sort of the delay.
01:11:24 --> 01:11:28 My kids were grown and I thought, let me go back to school and finish this.
01:11:28 --> 01:11:35 When I submitted my proposal for research, it was still around agency and the
01:11:35 --> 01:11:38 human role in that agency.
01:11:38 --> 01:11:42 And so naturally, it led into what was the lingo of the day for the thing I
01:11:42 --> 01:11:46 wanted to do. And that was six years ago, and it was AI.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:51 So I say all this to say that it was a degree that was delayed,
01:11:51 --> 01:11:57 but it was waiting just for the moment to talk about how human beings have lost our agency.
01:11:58 --> 01:12:02 When we interact with machines. In fact, the user interface now becomes this
01:12:02 --> 01:12:07 portal that takes in our information, your sex, were you a veteran,
01:12:08 --> 01:12:10 at your age, where do you live, right?
01:12:10 --> 01:12:13 It's this beautiful portal we just enter all this information about ourselves
01:12:13 --> 01:12:19 in, and it is now not even talking back to us because it knows us better than
01:12:19 --> 01:12:20 we know ourselves, right?
01:12:20 --> 01:12:25 And so that's where we are. And so my research is actually around just that,
01:12:25 --> 01:12:29 how artificial intelligence is being used to characterize us,
01:12:29 --> 01:12:31 to make decisions about us.
01:12:32 --> 01:12:36 So that was a long response, but it needed to be set to frame.
01:12:37 --> 01:12:41 So when I say that AI came to me, this came to me, I didn't come to it.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:44 It was just things that I had been looking at in 2020.
01:12:45 --> 01:12:49 And it just happened to be, you know, necessary and critical.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:53 You know when I started in 2017 2019 yeah yeah,
01:12:55 --> 01:13:03 So you're, you are part of a stable of authors that my good friend, Dr.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:09 Ayo. Sekai has with her publication company, Universal Write Publications.
01:13:10 --> 01:13:13 And you have written this book.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:19 Called Design Heuristics for Emerging Technologies.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:26 So talk to the listeners about the book and why did you feel compelled to write it?
01:13:26 --> 01:13:28 Yeah, compelled is a really good word.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:37 I think the compulsion came because I was working in a field and I think the
01:13:37 --> 01:13:41 everyday citizen does realize that when we talk about automation of everything
01:13:41 --> 01:13:44 we're doing from the check house to factories.
01:13:44 --> 01:13:47 Well, we have traditionally blue-collar workers who've been working in that
01:13:47 --> 01:13:52 space just being asked out of jobs. The same thing has happened in tech.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:57 We bring an expertise. And as a design researcher who was trained to really
01:13:57 --> 01:14:03 understand what some of the harms were that artificial intelligence was doing to the end user,
01:14:03 --> 01:14:08 I started thinking, what do we know as a tool in the design community that we
01:14:08 --> 01:14:11 use to design things? And that was heuristics.
01:14:11 --> 01:14:14 And heuristics are just really a rule of thumb.
01:14:15 --> 01:14:20 Things like allow users to recover from error and provide help in documentations.
01:14:20 --> 01:14:25 And that was a dated package of heuristics for the moment.
01:14:25 --> 01:14:28 So I deliberately wanted to
01:14:28 --> 01:14:32 root the research I was doing in design practice because I'm a designer.
01:14:32 --> 01:14:37 And so I wanted to use an artifact name that would be resonant for designers.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:42 So the whole idea of design heuristics, not for that technology that has gone,
01:14:43 --> 01:14:48 but for emerging technology, things like AI and what else? Just so many other things, right?
01:14:49 --> 01:14:54 So that was very critical in the naming of this book.
01:14:54 --> 01:14:59 I want it to appeal to designers as well as tech folks, as well as everybody
01:14:59 --> 01:15:01 else in the middle. Okay.
01:15:02 --> 01:15:07 We were talking and you had mentioned that, you know, I had Dr. Sekai on.
01:15:08 --> 01:15:17 To talk about linguistic imperialism and you said that you and her kind of been
01:15:17 --> 01:15:20 collaborating with the research and,
01:15:20 --> 01:15:26 and the scholarship you're doing with what she's doing with linguistic imperialism.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:28 Talk, talk about that relationship.
01:15:29 --> 01:15:35 Yeah, so Dr. Sakai and I were destined to meet. We actually ran into each other at a conference.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:39 We nearly fell over. And it was just one of these moments.
01:15:39 --> 01:15:43 She presented her work, I presented my work, and we left that there.
01:15:44 --> 01:15:49 But the work that she's doing, as I come to understand, and I say this because
01:15:49 --> 01:15:53 from a point of being very naive as somebody working in tech and not really
01:15:53 --> 01:15:58 understanding, when we think about technology, technology follows a pattern.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:01 It automates things that are from an analog world, right?
01:16:01 --> 01:16:05 So the work Dr. Sekai is doing around linguistic imperialism has to do a lot
01:16:05 --> 01:16:13 with the oppressive linguistic patterns that we see in what has been sort of Eurocentric thoughts,
01:16:13 --> 01:16:17 and knowledge production, right? And so that is her work.
01:16:17 --> 01:16:22 But for me, when I think about computing, my background is in artificial intelligence
01:16:22 --> 01:16:23 and computational rhetoric.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:28 I began to think about her work, And we talked about this a lot.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:29 And I said, you know what?
01:16:29 --> 01:16:33 The thing you're doing is the analog version of the thing I'm doing in tech
01:16:33 --> 01:16:38 is that when you look at ones and zeros, people just think, oh,
01:16:38 --> 01:16:39 this is computing language.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:43 But these are all proxies for other things, a linguistic underbelly,
01:16:43 --> 01:16:50 right? When I say a proxy for urban, I can say urban, but that can be computed.
01:16:50 --> 01:16:56 It's somebody with a postal code, with a specific name, the way they dress, and all of these things.
01:16:56 --> 01:17:02 And what artificial intelligence has done is compute us, to collect us,
01:17:02 --> 01:17:04 to mathematize us, to be able to tell the same story.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:08 And that in itself is a kind of language that
01:17:08 --> 01:17:11 ensures the continued oppression of
01:17:11 --> 01:17:17 brown and black people and of course you know the prioritizing of white bodies
01:17:17 --> 01:17:22 so i say we did the same thing because she's talking about the oppression in
01:17:22 --> 01:17:26 that language that analog space I'm talking about oppression in that digital
01:17:26 --> 01:17:30 space so they're definitely the parallels in in terms of our scholarship.
01:17:32 --> 01:17:37 Yeah. So I want to get back to the mathematizing of data.
01:17:37 --> 01:17:40 But I want to ask you this question before we get into that.
01:17:40 --> 01:17:47 You said the disconnect between personal potential and available opportunities
01:17:47 --> 01:17:50 is not just a personal failure, but a systemic one.
01:17:51 --> 01:17:54 Does AI exacerbate that disconnect?
01:17:55 --> 01:17:59 Absolutely. And I'll give you a very concrete example. So this is the example
01:17:59 --> 01:18:06 of Amazon. This is a very well-known example where the hiring AI system saw
01:18:06 --> 01:18:08 difference. It saw a difference.
01:18:08 --> 01:18:11 And the way it computed it is that you'll say, okay, I submitted my resume.
01:18:12 --> 01:18:15 I submitted my resume. It's been received. but today
01:18:15 --> 01:18:18 it is only 25% of resumes that
01:18:18 --> 01:18:22 actually get the eye of a human being 75% of
01:18:22 --> 01:18:25 that is done by artificial intelligence artificial intelligence can
01:18:25 --> 01:18:28 now do things like say you went to x school it
01:18:28 --> 01:18:32 can build a profile around you to say that over
01:18:32 --> 01:18:35 there is a black woman it could use and
01:18:35 --> 01:18:37 we call this proxy data right I could say oh you
01:18:37 --> 01:18:41 leave a chain and finch all you have to tell me is that intersection it also
01:18:41 --> 01:18:44 goes back to Crenshaw's work on intersectionality in a different way where we
01:18:44 --> 01:18:48 could say that intersection tells me the narrative of the people who live in
01:18:48 --> 01:18:53 that space right and so you shall not get the job you shall get the job or you
01:18:53 --> 01:18:55 shall get the job you shall not get the job
01:18:55 --> 01:19:01 that in itself is amplifying exhaust or can't even say the word right now but
01:19:01 --> 01:19:07 it's amplifying the known disparities and the material impact at an economic
01:19:07 --> 01:19:10 level that existed in real life, right?
01:19:11 --> 01:19:16 And so when you're able to compute that at scale, imagine the damage that could be done.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:21 One of the things I'm following in the US as well is the number of Black women out of work, right?
01:19:21 --> 01:19:24 There is another story that tells us AI is doing something,
01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 and that is the case of the American teen young woman
01:19:27 --> 01:19:31 who decided to change her sex on LinkedIn right
01:19:31 --> 01:19:33 all she did was change her picture I forgot what
01:19:33 --> 01:19:38 her name was and you saw the algorithms do something she was getting more offers
01:19:38 --> 01:19:44 I think it's like over 400 percent and then I say this to extend the narrative
01:19:44 --> 01:19:49 to say it also happened in other identity changes you had a white woman who
01:19:49 --> 01:19:51 went from Lucy to Luke Right?
01:19:52 --> 01:19:53 And she was getting all these offers.
01:19:54 --> 01:19:59 Compared with the black woman who went from black to white and the white woman
01:19:59 --> 01:20:05 who went from white to white male, there was parody there. There wasn't parody there.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:12 And AI is able to do that just by computing varying proxy pieces of information about a person.
01:20:13 --> 01:20:17 It is no surprise now when you apply for a job, you need to give so much information.
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 And you just take for granted that I have uploaded my resume.
01:20:21 --> 01:20:26 Is also scanning your resume and using content from that to create a character
01:20:26 --> 01:20:27 of who it thinks you are, right?
01:20:27 --> 01:20:31 So it's crazy times.
01:20:35 --> 01:20:40 I love that summary. You just took this and said, it's crazy.
01:20:40 --> 01:20:46 You mentioned that AI characterization is often a mathematizing of human data.
01:20:46 --> 01:20:55 What are the biggest risks when we out sort the task of defining human identity to machines.
01:20:56 --> 01:21:02 So many, so many. I'll give you one example that just still sits with me from last year.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:06 And this has to do with the young man who took his life. I don't know.
01:21:06 --> 01:21:09 I'm not going to talk so much about that, but a young person who took their
01:21:09 --> 01:21:15 life because we had allowed artificial intelligence to absorb a specialization
01:21:15 --> 01:21:20 that should have been that of a clinician, a therapist, and what have you.
01:21:20 --> 01:21:24 And when you train these machines, you're not training them for a specific context.
01:21:24 --> 01:21:27 Say for example large language model like chat gpt or
01:21:27 --> 01:21:31 clode or grok or one of these things it
01:21:31 --> 01:21:34 is not tailored to the context of healthcare guidance for
01:21:34 --> 01:21:39 somebody in said context right and so that is what is missing in this case and
01:21:39 --> 01:21:45 here we have a material harm we have somebody who you know took their life because
01:21:45 --> 01:21:51 they were getting they were getting guidance from machine right that is a detrimental thing.
01:21:52 --> 01:21:56 There are just so many more. I could go even into the medical space as well.
01:21:56 --> 01:22:01 Now you have AI systems specifically in the US where the healthcare system is
01:22:01 --> 01:22:05 a little bit more privatized than it is here in Canada, where it can now compute
01:22:05 --> 01:22:10 you based on all of the proxy information to know you have more money.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:13 So therefore, you can get to the front of the line for care.
01:22:14 --> 01:22:17 You, we can compute it. You say, you know, you're marginalized.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:21 You perhaps do not have the money. So, you know, you're no longer priority.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:25 So all of these things are things that we need to consider.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:28 And one of the things, the last thing I want to say is that I think we need
01:22:28 --> 01:22:33 to figure out a way to curate the human impact stories of AI,
01:22:34 --> 01:22:40 not chat GPT, but the true stories about harm. I lost my job.
01:22:40 --> 01:22:43 I couldn't get the loan because AI is computing that.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:47 Perhaps my credit It isn't very good because this is my postal slash zip code.
01:22:47 --> 01:22:51 All of these things. And we need a curation of these stories,
01:22:51 --> 01:22:54 not just for our community, but for everyone.
01:22:55 --> 01:23:00 Yeah, that, you know, when you say that,
01:23:00 --> 01:23:09 you know, I'm thinking about terms like redlining and segregation,
01:23:09 --> 01:23:11 all those kind of things.
01:23:11 --> 01:23:16 And, you know, what I say to people all the time is that, you know,
01:23:16 --> 01:23:19 AI is going to take, you know, people say AI is going to take over and all that.
01:23:19 --> 01:23:27 And I said, only if we let it because the information that it has, we supply it.
01:23:27 --> 01:23:37 And so if we continue to program AI with our biases about things as well as
01:23:37 --> 01:23:42 our other information, it's only going to compute the way that we compute.
01:23:42 --> 01:23:49 Because before, we didn't need AI to move people to the front of the line, as you said.
01:23:49 --> 01:23:52 We as humans had that natural ability to discriminate.
01:23:53 --> 01:23:56 And so all AI is going to do is just do it faster.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:05 Exactly what I'm saying. That is exactly what I'm saying. And I think I said
01:24:05 --> 01:24:07 to you before we began that,
01:24:08 --> 01:24:12 Somewhere in the near future, the other thing you're going to see is AI,
01:24:12 --> 01:24:16 when you go to apply for a job, what kind of white are you, right?
01:24:16 --> 01:24:21 It's peeling back. It's peeling back the foundations of what constructed it
01:24:21 --> 01:24:23 in the first place in so many ways in real life.
01:24:23 --> 01:24:27 So they're like, we can't survive this, you know, this analogic solutioning
01:24:27 --> 01:24:31 by, you know, the marginalized classes. Let's take this shit online, right?
01:24:32 --> 01:24:34 And so that is exactly what is happening.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:39 Exactly what is happening. And it requires that every corner of the world is
01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 chattered so they could actually tag it, right?
01:24:42 --> 01:24:46 This is a postal code. This comes with X properties. And that is the work that
01:24:46 --> 01:24:50 I do to be able to say, look, this is happening. This is happening.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:57 Yeah. All right. Yes. How can your framework of ethotic, and I'm hoping I'm
01:24:57 --> 01:25:00 saying this right, ethotic heuristic heuristic.
01:25:00 --> 01:25:05 Help tech companies build more trustworthy and ethical AI system?
01:25:06 --> 01:25:10 That is, Erik, if they would love to do that, because I think a lot of tech
01:25:10 --> 01:25:13 companies, the mindset is let's get there first.
01:25:14 --> 01:25:17 I've seen this a lot being close up to research.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:23 There's a lot of deregulation. So a lot of these companies are existing in a wild, wild west space.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:28 So I have written my book specifically to address, because of course,
01:25:28 --> 01:25:31 I'm a researcher, the first part of the book is very scholarly
01:25:31 --> 01:25:34 so it's a lot of lit review of sort of the legacy who I've
01:25:34 --> 01:25:37 scaffolded my work on all the way to Spivak and
01:25:37 --> 01:25:44 it goes back back so the second part of my book my idea was that they're not
01:25:44 --> 01:25:48 going to do this work willingly so what you need to do is to create an auditing
01:25:48 --> 01:25:56 path to allow future regulators to say did your software follow the guidance of these things.
01:25:56 --> 01:26:00 And so the second part of my book is basically an audit. It is an audit.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:05 It looks at all of these spaces that AI is violating from privacy.
01:26:05 --> 01:26:10 When we think about things like the Hippocratic Oath, where you saw your doctor
01:26:10 --> 01:26:12 and it stayed between you and your doctor, right?
01:26:12 --> 01:26:19 Right now you have Amazon. Amazon now holds, I think, over 40% of American people's
01:26:19 --> 01:26:21 healthcare data, Amazon.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:24 This guy started out as a shoe salesman, right?
01:26:24 --> 01:26:27 Nothing wrong with shoe salesmen. But this is the path that we're on.
01:26:28 --> 01:26:29 We're violating these things.
01:26:29 --> 01:26:34 So my book, for example, there's a whole, and I call them categorical heuristics,
01:26:35 --> 01:26:38 and they fall into things like consent, right?
01:26:39 --> 01:26:43 Transparency. Does the person know what it is they're doing as they're talking back to this machine?
01:26:44 --> 01:26:48 So that is basically the tone of the book. It's a practitioner's book.
01:26:49 --> 01:26:53 Be able to say, check, check, check, check, check. Simple things like that.
01:26:54 --> 01:26:57 Another one I'll give you that is probably very relatable for the American audience
01:26:57 --> 01:26:59 is in the reversal of Roe v.
01:26:59 --> 01:27:04 Wade, there were companies who had fertility app companies, for example, right?
01:27:04 --> 01:27:09 That was collecting data on women that could tell whether or not they were pregnant or not.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:12 And I know specifically of cases where the new
01:27:12 --> 01:27:14 regime has sent folks out to knock on people's
01:27:14 --> 01:27:17 daughters to see if they're still pregnant when it turned out that the person
01:27:17 --> 01:27:20 was going through menopause but it misses the context
01:27:20 --> 01:27:23 so in a case like that when you talk about consent and privacy
01:27:23 --> 01:27:26 these fertility apps are now operating a
01:27:26 --> 01:27:30 crystal fascist society right now and
01:27:30 --> 01:27:32 so i need to be able to ask a customer go in and switch
01:27:32 --> 01:27:35 my data off so again when we
01:27:35 --> 01:27:38 talk about a thought heuristic there is a heuristic for that too
01:27:38 --> 01:27:41 right to be able to provide people the control they need
01:27:41 --> 01:27:44 to revoke their consent in any given technological
01:27:44 --> 01:27:47 uh situation yeah i'm glad you i'm
01:27:47 --> 01:27:50 glad you put that in because that was a question i was gonna ask you
01:27:50 --> 01:27:53 because that those apps you know the
01:27:53 --> 01:27:56 most popular ones is you know you were
01:27:56 --> 01:27:59 saying pregnant most popular ones is if when
01:27:59 --> 01:28:04 is your cycle when you're ovulating that's the one that a lot of women have
01:28:04 --> 01:28:10 downloaded i guess you need a reminder what i don't know but it just That's
01:28:10 --> 01:28:17 beyond my comprehension.
01:28:17 --> 01:28:23 But that's why that app is popular because it'll tell them when,
01:28:23 --> 01:28:26 you know, it'll calculate when their cycles come in and I guess,
01:28:26 --> 01:28:31 you know, if they were a partner or whatever, when they can try to have a baby and all that stuff.
01:28:31 --> 01:28:37 But that privacy risk is real because you're putting all that information out there.
01:28:37 --> 01:28:41 Yes. All right, so I'm going to try to get in a couple more questions.
01:28:42 --> 01:28:49 As the co-founder of Human Tech Futures, what was the primary problem you set
01:28:49 --> 01:28:55 out to solve that you felt wasn't being addressed by the tech consultants?
01:28:55 --> 01:29:01 Yeah, so my company, Human Tech Futures, has since sprawled to focus primarily
01:29:01 --> 01:29:04 on human futures, AI training, work.
01:29:04 --> 01:29:11 And I think there is a huge gap for literacy by the everyday person.
01:29:11 --> 01:29:16 And although I come from a space that is typically accused of being in an ivory
01:29:16 --> 01:29:17 tower, this is not who I am.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:22 And I thought, how do I mobilize the research that I do so that the brick and
01:29:22 --> 01:29:28 mortar business knows AI and understands, you know, how to operate in that world?
01:29:28 --> 01:29:34 That the person doing social work using AI power tools really understands,
01:29:34 --> 01:29:36 you know, what it is they're getting into.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:41 And so for my work, I think for Human Futures and, you know,
01:29:42 --> 01:29:44 other work that I do is about literacy.
01:29:44 --> 01:29:48 Where I come from, we have a saying, having, you know, been the descendants
01:29:48 --> 01:29:52 of Maroons, that each one teach one.
01:29:52 --> 01:29:57 I grew up with that on the back of every exercise school book that I had.
01:29:57 --> 01:30:03 And so I think that is the energy that I bring to that, is just teaching people
01:30:03 --> 01:30:07 and not keeping knowledge so esoteric and inaccessible to people.
01:30:08 --> 01:30:14 Yeah, and in the realm of teaching, you often facilitate workshops on the future of work.
01:30:14 --> 01:30:21 So what skills do you believe are the most AI proof for the next generation of professionals?
01:30:22 --> 01:30:25 I have two sons and I tell them, do not do anything on a computer.
01:30:25 --> 01:30:28 If you're doing it on a computer, it becomes proceduralized.
01:30:28 --> 01:30:30 That means they can copy what it is you're doing.
01:30:30 --> 01:30:34 So skills, I think, have to, let's go back to the village mentality.
01:30:34 --> 01:30:39 You know, I grew up in a village. I want to be in a place, I still live in a
01:30:39 --> 01:30:43 relatively small village, but while I know my butcher, where there's somebody
01:30:43 --> 01:30:47 making bread, you know, the candlestick make and all of that.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:51 So I think to some extent, we need to think about in the modern era,
01:30:51 --> 01:30:56 what does that mean going back to a village, right? So I think it's about building community.
01:30:56 --> 01:31:04 So that is what I would encourage is that we have so built a system on fiat money, on money, right?
01:31:04 --> 01:31:09 I don't know for certain that when we think about the future of work,
01:31:09 --> 01:31:12 we're thinking about the same thing that we're existing in today, right?
01:31:12 --> 01:31:20 So future-proof, online, offline community, and something that you can do with
01:31:20 --> 01:31:23 your body that is an impression of your soul.
01:31:23 --> 01:31:28 My son, I'm so happy he took a painting again. For me, that is the future of
01:31:28 --> 01:31:30 work, of going back to real things.
01:31:32 --> 01:31:36 Because one of the things I was thinking about was like trades, like welding.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:42 You mentioned painting, you know, sculpture as far as arts and all that.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:48 Because even though you can do the 3D printing now, but it's still this like,
01:31:48 --> 01:31:51 you know, things that can be creative,
01:31:51 --> 01:31:57 things that can, you know, like AI can't unclog my drain.
01:31:57 --> 01:32:00 Right. So that's what I was thinking about. Trades.
01:32:01 --> 01:32:06 You know I'm with that in that category yeah I'm with that I'm with that my
01:32:06 --> 01:32:11 son my 15 year old son he goes to high school and next Friday in fact there
01:32:11 --> 01:32:14 is a an after-school event on the trades,
01:32:15 --> 01:32:19 because they're trying to you know go to all the students to go towards that
01:32:19 --> 01:32:26 right so yes but yes I was just telling the co-worker last night if I could
01:32:26 --> 01:32:33 go back in time what would I do a little different and one of the things I told him was that.
01:32:34 --> 01:32:42 I would have done more as far as learning how to fix cars because my dad,
01:32:42 --> 01:32:46 my dad was good at that, but he would never teach me because it was like,
01:32:46 --> 01:32:48 Erik, I need you to do X, Y, and Z.
01:32:48 --> 01:32:51 He wanted me to be a surgeon, by the way. And then I ended up in politics.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:55 So that really threw all my dad and my mom for a loop.
01:32:55 --> 01:33:00 But, but he was always working on the cars that he had and I would just watch him.
01:33:00 --> 01:33:06 And so when I started buying my own cars and doing stuff and he called me, he said, what you doing?
01:33:06 --> 01:33:09 I said, you know, putting some new brakes on the car. He said,
01:33:09 --> 01:33:10 where'd you learn how to do that?
01:33:10 --> 01:33:13 I said, watching you. I said, you didn't teach me, but I watched you, you know?
01:33:14 --> 01:33:21 And so I always was fascinated with, you know, cars and combustion and transmissions
01:33:21 --> 01:33:22 and all that kind of stuff.
01:33:22 --> 01:33:31 So if I had to go back, I said I probably would have enrolled in a class to learn how to do that.
01:33:31 --> 01:33:39 So that way, you know, because my whole mantra is we have to be able to do stuff
01:33:39 --> 01:33:45 so that we can always take care of us or our families or whatever.
01:33:45 --> 01:33:50 And so I believe that we should all develop some kind of skill that,
01:33:50 --> 01:33:56 you know, because if times get hard, you could translate that into money.
01:33:56 --> 01:34:00 So you could you could do what you if you can't do what you set out to do right
01:34:00 --> 01:34:02 away. At least you've got something to fall back on.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:08 I also said I would have took baseball a lot more serious, especially the money given out now.
01:34:08 --> 01:34:14 But but yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. All right. A couple more. Don't worry.
01:34:14 --> 01:34:19 You argue that the humanities are essential for tech innovation.
01:34:19 --> 01:34:24 Why should an AI engineer care about ancient Greek rhetoric or storytelling?
01:34:25 --> 01:34:29 Yeah. So I'll be very, very brief with my response.
01:34:30 --> 01:34:34 A lot of the tech billionaires that you see out there, you know what they all have in common?
01:34:34 --> 01:34:40 Fantasy fiction stories, right? When you think about the brave new world or what's the other one?
01:34:41 --> 01:34:45 1984, all of these are stories that came out of the humanities.
01:34:45 --> 01:34:50 We pin the pictures for them to create, right? Using technology.
01:34:50 --> 01:34:54 So I think that humanities also provides an opportunity through storytelling
01:34:54 --> 01:34:57 to grow our empathy muscle.
01:34:58 --> 01:35:04 And I think that, for me, as a trait, a character trait, is something that is
01:35:04 --> 01:35:06 so critical in sustaining us, empathy, right?
01:35:06 --> 01:35:10 It also speaks to Crenshaw's whole idea of intersectionality.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:13 If you don't have empathy for each other, then you cannot be intersectional.
01:35:14 --> 01:35:17 But that, I don't think, can be learned in STEM.
01:35:17 --> 01:35:21 Now, I say all this to say, just in case anybody from my university is listening,
01:35:21 --> 01:35:26 one of the things that is very unique to my university is that everyone in STEM,
01:35:27 --> 01:35:30 they have to take like things, well, engineers, etc.
01:35:30 --> 01:35:35 They have to take ethics and they have to take courses in the humanities.
01:35:35 --> 01:35:38 It's mandatory, right? and so
01:35:38 --> 01:35:43 I had the pleasure of actually teaching courses where it was just all electrical
01:35:43 --> 01:35:48 engineers or all software engineers and you could have conversation and exchange
01:35:48 --> 01:35:53 of information and learning to know that when you've been commissioned by your
01:35:53 --> 01:35:56 company to build X solution,
01:35:56 --> 01:35:59 have you considered the harm to human beings?
01:35:59 --> 01:36:04 When they don't have that humanities training, most of them just go on and they
01:36:04 --> 01:36:09 do it without thinking about the moral side of what it is they're doing.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:13 Engineers just want to solve problems. They don't often think about the morality.
01:36:14 --> 01:36:20 And for me, that is a keystone that is situated in the humanities, nowhere else.
01:36:21 --> 01:36:27 Yeah. And that's, you know, I'm glad you brought that up about your particular
01:36:27 --> 01:36:30 university because all liberal arts schools,
01:36:30 --> 01:36:34 everybody says, well, you know, there's a big debate, especially here in the
01:36:34 --> 01:36:37 United States, about education. Right.
01:36:38 --> 01:36:42 And, you know, I'd mentioned about the trades and learning a trade and all that.
01:36:42 --> 01:36:46 So you can go to school and just do that, right?
01:36:46 --> 01:36:50 You can go to school and just be a computer programmer or, you know,
01:36:50 --> 01:36:52 software or mechanical engineer.
01:36:52 --> 01:37:00 You can go to school specifically for that, but you miss out on the total liberal arts experience.
01:37:00 --> 01:37:03 And that and the whole concept you
01:37:03 --> 01:37:06 know even you know the oldest school in the united states is
01:37:06 --> 01:37:09 Harvard and and then you know broke off from
01:37:09 --> 01:37:15 there but it was like even though you went to Harvard and you became a blacksmith
01:37:15 --> 01:37:24 right you had all this education so you understood you know about the arts and
01:37:24 --> 01:37:26 you understood about law and all that stuff.
01:37:26 --> 01:37:35 So you could apply all that to just the trade or the guild that you were a part of, right?
01:37:36 --> 01:37:44 And that leads to what you do contributing to society as opposed to just doing
01:37:44 --> 01:37:46 something to do something.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:52 And a lot of people, even with Right.
01:37:53 --> 01:38:00 You know, I consider my life path, even though I just mentioned there were some things I would change,
01:38:00 --> 01:38:07 but I consider my life path my greatest advantage in politics because I did
01:38:07 --> 01:38:11 all these different things in life when it came to issues.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:19 About, you know, X, Y, and Z, I was somewhat more articulate than my colleagues
01:38:19 --> 01:38:23 because they were dealing with it just from a law or policy,
01:38:23 --> 01:38:26 but I was dealing with it from an actual experience, right?
01:38:26 --> 01:38:31 Empathy too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you, if you do something,
01:38:31 --> 01:38:36 you naturally have something empathic with, you have connection with it.
01:38:37 --> 01:38:41 You know, it's one thing because it was like when it came to hunting bills,
01:38:41 --> 01:38:43 for example, I never hunted.
01:38:44 --> 01:38:48 So I had to rely on my colleagues that did that to say, should we be voting
01:38:48 --> 01:38:50 for that? Should we not vote for that?
01:38:50 --> 01:38:56 You know, on the other hand, like if we wanted to talk about privacy issues
01:38:56 --> 01:38:58 with the press, well, I used to be a reporter.
01:38:58 --> 01:39:03 So I was able to give guidance and say, okay, these are the things that we need
01:39:03 --> 01:39:05 to go into. These are the things we need to leave alone.
01:39:06 --> 01:39:09 So I think it's very important for
01:39:09 --> 01:39:11 people regardless of what they do to
01:39:11 --> 01:39:15 be well-rounded and especially when we're
01:39:15 --> 01:39:20 dealing with this tech stuff so final question as far as the subject matter
01:39:20 --> 01:39:28 goes is how do we bridge the gap between first world design thinking and the
01:39:28 --> 01:39:33 social economic realities of the global south Oh boy.
01:39:34 --> 01:39:41 Take your time on this We're good Yeah That's a very big question Yeah.
01:39:43 --> 01:39:49 In 2024, I co-founded AI Global South Summit. It was meant to be a roving summit.
01:39:49 --> 01:39:54 And it actually goes to the heart of your question.
01:39:54 --> 01:39:59 The year prior to that, I was on a panel at MIT on AI.
01:40:00 --> 01:40:06 And I left feeling so gutted because in the networking sessions,
01:40:07 --> 01:40:11 everybody was talking about things like, how many millions did you get?
01:40:11 --> 01:40:16 And the apps were so, it was just another app, an app that did this and that.
01:40:16 --> 01:40:21 And I thought, my God, you know, like this is not what I expected at that particular summit.
01:40:22 --> 01:40:27 And so on the panel, I made a point about, you know, AI hallucinating.
01:40:27 --> 01:40:28 I forgot what the context was.
01:40:29 --> 01:40:34 But the point was that I had been looking for something in one of these AI, Gen AI tools.
01:40:35 --> 01:40:39 I wanted it to create for me a scenery of a Creole setting.
01:40:40 --> 01:40:46 And so I am Antillian Creole, Antillian French Creole, and I know that it's Louisiana Creole.
01:40:46 --> 01:40:51 So it went through this, I'm waiting for it to render, and it is this Antillian,
01:40:51 --> 01:40:55 sorry, Louisiana Creole place with the, it looked like it was in New Orleans,
01:40:55 --> 01:40:57 and I'm like, that's not what I wanted, right?
01:40:57 --> 01:41:01 It was really in that moment that I was on stage, and it struck me,
01:41:01 --> 01:41:05 and I thought, these machines don't even know us, right? And so...
01:41:07 --> 01:41:10 Think we need to reconcile there's some reconciliation that is
01:41:10 --> 01:41:13 needed if we are to proceed in
01:41:13 --> 01:41:20 this world with technology as a driver to understand that the world is not only
01:41:20 --> 01:41:25 the global north and this actually manifests in so many stories enjoy bullion
01:41:25 --> 01:41:31 winnie's case about coded bias in recognizing that a facial recognition system
01:41:31 --> 01:41:32 didn't recognize as a human being,
01:41:33 --> 01:41:38 because she had African phenotypical features and her skin was very dark, right?
01:41:38 --> 01:41:43 And so I think all of the conversations we're having, Dr.
01:41:43 --> 01:41:48 Sakai, Ruha Benjamin, Safia Noble, Joy Bouliamwini, Simone Brown,
01:41:49 --> 01:41:54 all of these folks are having the same conversation in our own little faculty intersection.
01:41:55 --> 01:41:59 We're noticing something is wrong. And one of the things I will say,
01:41:59 --> 01:42:03 I went in as a designer, and this goes back to your question about the global cloud.
01:42:03 --> 01:42:08 I went into my studies as a design researcher, computational design,
01:42:08 --> 01:42:13 and I have said this many times, I emerged a post-colonial scholar.
01:42:14 --> 01:42:19 Because when you go through that journey, you realize everything that is being
01:42:19 --> 01:42:24 digitized is the same old colonialism, imperialism, white supremacy,
01:42:24 --> 01:42:28 whiteness, prioritization, and all of that. It is just being coded.
01:42:28 --> 01:42:34 It's just being coded, right? And so my research, looking at how this characterizes
01:42:34 --> 01:42:40 us, we see the big delta between what you're doing to global north faces versus
01:42:40 --> 01:42:42 what you're doing to global south faces.
01:42:43 --> 01:42:47 So the conversation we need to have, and I say we.
01:42:48 --> 01:42:51 Hit you to put this on the burden of our foundational Black American brothers
01:42:51 --> 01:42:55 and sisters, but they're closest to this than any of us.
01:42:55 --> 01:42:59 And we need to not only advocate the things on the ground, but things in digital
01:42:59 --> 01:43:06 spaces as a collective, because we are being digitized in the same old Jim Crow code.
01:43:06 --> 01:43:08 That is exactly what's happening.
01:43:08 --> 01:43:12 So the reconciliation to get to answering this question in a roundabout way
01:43:12 --> 01:43:17 is that technology that exists today was not built for us.
01:43:18 --> 01:43:22 We are still the same slaves in that technological system.
01:43:22 --> 01:43:26 It still grades us the same way, characterizes us the same way,
01:43:26 --> 01:43:29 and makes decisions based on that in the same way.
01:43:29 --> 01:43:34 And so perhaps our sister, Ruha Benjamin, would say, burn everything down.
01:43:35 --> 01:43:40 I don't know that that is necessary or critical. But I think the awareness that
01:43:40 --> 01:43:44 there is that delta between technology and how there is a big divide,
01:43:44 --> 01:43:48 a big divide between the global north and the global south is the first step.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:50 And then we can figure out what we need to do from there.
01:43:51 --> 01:43:58 But I think until it sees us as equals, we need to keep interrogating that system until then.
01:43:59 --> 01:44:03 It's a lot. It's a lot. And I don't have the scholarship and the breadth of
01:44:03 --> 01:44:06 scholarship to talk about everything and say, you know, this is my research.
01:44:07 --> 01:44:08 But I will give you another example.
01:44:08 --> 01:44:13 We're using artificial intelligence to make decisions like, does this person have skin cancer?
01:44:13 --> 01:44:17 If the technology has never seen a black skin, efficacy rates are very low.
01:44:18 --> 01:44:23 Again, this is another example where it doesn't see us. We shouldn't have to do that.
01:44:23 --> 01:44:28 And how do they correct this? They create synthetic data, so they take the same
01:44:28 --> 01:44:31 white skin and color it brown and black.
01:44:32 --> 01:44:39 No, I want the real skin, right? I need your data to be the real thing, not synthetic.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:46 And so these are all the little strings that all of us in our little faculties are working on.
01:44:47 --> 01:44:52 Exhausting yeah well you know you you
01:44:52 --> 01:44:55 use skin cancer the one that always kind of
01:44:55 --> 01:44:58 I think a lot of people relate to is the bmi the
01:44:58 --> 01:45:04 body mass index right yeah you started using these apps and they say well you
01:45:04 --> 01:45:08 you you know you need to lose so many pounds because you're this height and
01:45:08 --> 01:45:13 all this stuff yeah and and every every black person that I've ever encountered
01:45:13 --> 01:45:17 said But does this thing even know black people?
01:45:17 --> 01:45:21 How do you figure I got to lose this many pounds? You know what I'm saying?
01:45:21 --> 01:45:26 It's not, it's like, obviously, there's nothing but white programmers doing
01:45:26 --> 01:45:30 these kind of apps because they don't know how black bodies are built.
01:45:30 --> 01:45:36 So the biggest challenge it sounds to me is a challenge that we've been dealing
01:45:36 --> 01:45:37 with in the political world,
01:45:38 --> 01:45:44 especially in the United States, ever since its foundation has been recognizing
01:45:44 --> 01:45:50 black people, people of African descent, however you want to label us, as human.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:58 Because it's like, you know, when you when you pass laws or, you know, you try to.
01:45:59 --> 01:46:03 Quote unquote, solve a public policy problem, those of us that,
01:46:03 --> 01:46:07 you know, when we were elected or are still elected, you know,
01:46:07 --> 01:46:09 we always have to interject and say, well, what about us?
01:46:10 --> 01:46:12 How does how does that impact us? Right.
01:46:12 --> 01:46:18 And it sounds like AI is going through the same growing pains in that sense. Yeah.
01:46:19 --> 01:46:23 Yes. And unfortunately, I think a lot of the people working in these spaces
01:46:23 --> 01:46:27 where AI is being created don't look like us, right?
01:46:28 --> 01:46:32 We're not prioritizing these spaces. And so I know there are different schools
01:46:32 --> 01:46:37 of thoughts on do we create our own thing or do we just fix that thing and,
01:46:37 --> 01:46:38 you know, just join this?
01:46:39 --> 01:46:43 So there's a lot of, I think, initiative towards building our own,
01:46:43 --> 01:46:46 the whole sort of digital FUBU, if you want to call it that.
01:46:47 --> 01:46:54 Yeah. Yeah. And pray for me because I've been trying to get Sister Ruha and Dr.
01:46:54 --> 01:47:00 Joy on the podcast. So just pray for me and see if I can make that connection.
01:47:01 --> 01:47:04 And Dr. Noble too. Dr. Who?
01:47:04 --> 01:47:10 Dr. Safia Noble, Algorithms of Oppression. She's, yes, another. Yeah.
01:47:10 --> 01:47:13 And her to the whist list on that too.
01:47:14 --> 01:47:20 So my last question I've been asking all of my guests, because it's a theme
01:47:20 --> 01:47:22 that I'm pushing this year.
01:47:22 --> 01:47:24 So I want you to finish this sentence.
01:47:25 --> 01:47:28 I have hope because...
01:47:29 --> 01:47:33 I have hope because of the next generation. Yeah, I don't know how much more
01:47:33 --> 01:47:41 I can say, but as a lecturer, I come across a lot of young people and there's something there.
01:47:41 --> 01:47:44 There is definitely something that I think they now have a language and they're
01:47:44 --> 01:47:47 now looking with the right eyes as to what is happening.
01:47:48 --> 01:47:51 So I'm hopeful because of them. All right.
01:47:51 --> 01:47:56 So if people want to get your book, Design Heuristics for Emerging Technologies,
01:47:56 --> 01:47:59 if they want to get in touch with you, how can they do that?
01:48:00 --> 01:48:05 Yeah definitely I think my university email is public that as well too or connect
01:48:05 --> 01:48:08 with me on LinkedIn I think that's the only social platform that i have outside
01:48:08 --> 01:48:13 of Instagram you can connect with me there as well too to get my book it's on
01:48:13 --> 01:48:19 the universal right publications website and anywhere books are sold it's globally available as well too.
01:48:20 --> 01:48:26 All right. Well, Dr. Kem Laurin Lubin, this has been enlightening as I knew it would be.
01:48:26 --> 01:48:34 And I'm really, really happy that you came on and that you were enthused to come on.
01:48:34 --> 01:48:38 That means a lot because sometimes I have guests come on and,
01:48:38 --> 01:48:42 you know, you could tell initially it's kind of like, you know,
01:48:43 --> 01:48:47 am I or I'll get emails like, why do you want me on the podcast?
01:48:47 --> 01:48:52 You know, but it's like all this stuff is connected.
01:48:52 --> 01:48:58 And what I what I tell people was that politics is everything because politics is in everything.
01:48:59 --> 01:49:03 And so I see that there's, you know,
01:49:03 --> 01:49:07 especially with this emerging technology and it's in a part of our everyday
01:49:07 --> 01:49:14 lives that, you know, the political community has to deal with that.
01:49:14 --> 01:49:20 And I hope this discussion for the listeners kind of put things in frame that
01:49:20 --> 01:49:23 it's like we still have this journey.
01:49:23 --> 01:49:26 That's why I use the term unicorn with you.
01:49:27 --> 01:49:33 But I'm really glad that that you came on and helped explain some things.
01:49:33 --> 01:49:37 And I hope that people get your book, not just like you say,
01:49:37 --> 01:49:44 practitioners, but just people to kind of get a basic understanding of what could be better.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:47 As we move forward in society.
01:49:48 --> 01:49:55 So again, I'm honored to have you on. And the rule is that once you've been
01:49:55 --> 01:49:56 on, you have an open invitation to come back.
01:49:57 --> 01:50:02 So if you don't even have to wait for me, if there's something going on that
01:50:02 --> 01:50:06 you think, yeah, I need to get a platform, you can always come on the podcast.
01:50:07 --> 01:50:12 I appreciate you had so much fun. And yeah, I can get very excited about my
01:50:12 --> 01:50:16 work. So I hope that wasn't too much. No, no, that was perfect.
01:50:16 --> 01:50:19 All right, guys, and we're going to go ahead and catch y'all on the other side.
01:50:38 --> 01:50:46 All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Mishael White.
01:50:47 --> 01:50:52 Mishael White, a certified transportation professional truck driver,
01:50:52 --> 01:50:59 husband, father and devoted Christian, as well as the 2024 District 81 former
01:50:59 --> 01:51:05 Democratic nominee, is passionate about representing District 81 of Henry County.
01:51:05 --> 01:51:09 Mr. White was born, raised, and educated in the great state of Louisiana.
01:51:09 --> 01:51:15 He and his family relocated to Georgia due to Hurricane Katrina to rebuild and
01:51:15 --> 01:51:17 move to Henry County, Georgia.
01:51:18 --> 01:51:24 Upon rebuilding a new life in Georgia, White has thrived as a successful certified
01:51:24 --> 01:51:30 transportation professional truck driver, working to support his family for over 23 years.
01:51:30 --> 01:51:37 As a loving husband of six children, loving husband and father of six children, I should say, Mr.
01:51:37 --> 01:51:41 White is passionate about representing the families of District 81.
01:51:41 --> 01:51:47 White has volunteered for previous political campaigns, both before and after
01:51:47 --> 01:51:51 gerrymandering, and in our new reality of fighting for democracy.
01:51:52 --> 01:51:56 White is ready to step up and lead again as the District 81 candidate,
01:51:57 --> 01:52:01 presenting a clear choice for the issues that affect working-class families
01:52:01 --> 01:52:03 and small business owners.
01:52:03 --> 01:52:09 As part of his campaign, White will focus on essential issues such as education,
01:52:10 --> 01:52:14 reducing Georgia's maternal mortality rate, supporting law enforcement,
01:52:15 --> 01:52:19 investing in small business owners, and improving infrastructure.
01:52:19 --> 01:52:24 Mr. White will continue to engage with local businesses and incorporate community
01:52:24 --> 01:52:29 engagement events to gather insights and help maintain the lifestyle to protect
01:52:29 --> 01:52:31 the people of District 81.
01:52:32 --> 01:52:36 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
01:52:36 --> 01:52:39 on this podcast, Mishael White.
01:52:51 --> 01:52:56 All right. Mishael White. How are you doing, sir? You doing good?
01:52:57 --> 01:53:01 I'm doing good this morning, sir. How are you? I'm doing fine.
01:53:01 --> 01:53:03 Did I say your first name right? Is it?
01:53:05 --> 01:53:11 It's Mishael. Mishael. Yes, sir. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's okay.
01:53:12 --> 01:53:17 Trust me, I'm used to it. I've been hearing all types of different iterations
01:53:17 --> 01:53:20 of how people pronounce my name, so it doesn't bother me.
01:53:20 --> 01:53:23 Yeah yeah but I didn't want to I didn't
01:53:23 --> 01:53:26 want to I didn't want to come across because you know
01:53:26 --> 01:53:30 when people people hear
01:53:30 --> 01:53:34 that they'll be like wait a minute that's not a female or whatever but it's
01:53:34 --> 01:53:42 right so it's like okay Mishael okay I got you all right so we're gonna go
01:53:42 --> 01:53:47 ahead and get the interview started in in the way that I normally do it is I
01:53:47 --> 01:53:49 do a couple what we call icebreaker.
01:53:49 --> 01:53:53 So the first icebreaker is a quote.
01:53:54 --> 01:54:02 And the quote I want you to respond to is, we are now faced with the fact that
01:54:02 --> 01:54:05 tomorrow is today. What does that quote mean to you?
01:54:06 --> 01:54:16 It means the fierce urgency of now, that we can't, we can not delay what needs to be done.
01:54:16 --> 01:54:21 We need to do it in the moment while we're in the moment and the demands of
01:54:21 --> 01:54:25 the moment have to be met with fierce action.
01:54:26 --> 01:54:30 And yeah, so that's what that quote means to me. Gotcha.
01:54:30 --> 01:54:38 All right. So now the next one is what we call 20 questions. Okay.
01:54:38 --> 01:54:44 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
01:54:44 --> 01:54:47 Between one and 20. Yep.
01:54:48 --> 01:54:56 Seven. Okay. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,
01:54:56 --> 01:54:59 current events, health, et cetera?
01:55:00 --> 01:55:07 Read any and all available publications at your disposal.
01:55:08 --> 01:55:17 And don't just rely on talking heads on TV, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or what have you.
01:55:17 --> 01:55:20 You know really really take the time
01:55:20 --> 01:55:23 to read your local publications there
01:55:23 --> 01:55:27 are a lot of local newspapers and magazines all across
01:55:27 --> 01:55:30 this country and out in in our communities that
01:55:30 --> 01:55:33 really have their finger on the pulse of what's
01:55:33 --> 01:55:38 actually going on because as I'm sure as you're aware Mr. Fleming all politics
01:55:38 --> 01:55:45 is local and one of the things that that i have observed is right now we are
01:55:45 --> 01:55:50 inundated with misinformation and disinformation.
01:55:51 --> 01:55:59 And so, you know, it's best to start getting your information from local sources
01:55:59 --> 01:56:02 first and then work out from there.
01:56:03 --> 01:56:07 And so, yeah, get that. Like here in Henry County, we have the Henry Herald,
01:56:07 --> 01:56:09 and I read it faithfully.
01:56:09 --> 01:56:14 We have Game Changers magazine these are two local publications in the area
01:56:14 --> 01:56:21 that really have their finger on the pulse of what's moving and shaking and
01:56:21 --> 01:56:28 our public policy making arena here in henry county so yeah that's what I would suggest okay.
01:56:29 --> 01:56:37 A wise young man once said, we are at a critical turning point in our nation's existence.
01:56:37 --> 01:56:43 While watching the news or listening to podcasts is easy to feel discouraged.
01:56:43 --> 01:56:48 However, the time is now to take action and get involved.
01:56:48 --> 01:56:52 Is that why you committed yourself to run for office?
01:56:53 --> 01:57:00 Absolutely. Absolutely. It's watching what's taking place in real time.
01:57:00 --> 01:57:05 And our best ability is our availability.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:11 And so when you see that there's an urgent need for something and you're available,
01:57:12 --> 01:57:20 then I think it's incumbent upon you as the individual to show initiative and fill that need.
01:57:20 --> 01:57:23 And look if if things
01:57:23 --> 01:57:27 continue to go the way they're they're looking we could
01:57:27 --> 01:57:30 be in you know a way worse situation
01:57:30 --> 01:57:33 than what we've ever been in this nation before
01:57:33 --> 01:57:39 so it's going to take people at every level in these communities and our neighborhoods
01:57:39 --> 01:57:44 and small towns all across the state of Georgia and all across the country to
01:57:44 --> 01:57:52 take up that uh that mantle of responsibility in leadership and in service to the greater good.
01:57:52 --> 01:57:57 And so, yeah, that's exactly why I decided to run for this office here in Henry County.
01:57:58 --> 01:58:04 What about your life experience makes you the most qualified candidate to represent
01:58:04 --> 01:58:07 District 81 in the Georgia House of Representatives?
01:58:08 --> 01:58:11 Well, thank you for asking that question. That's a great question.
01:58:11 --> 01:58:17 Well, first and foremost, I would say it's my, you know, in my early years as
01:58:17 --> 01:58:21 a teenager who was transitioning into adulthood,
01:58:21 --> 01:58:26 a 20-something-year-old man, I was a youth pastor and street evangelist.
01:58:27 --> 01:58:31 And so what that experience taught me, it taught me about, you know,
01:58:31 --> 01:58:36 serving others and serving people and what it takes to actually serve.
01:58:36 --> 01:58:41 And it's kind of like what the good Lord said, he who seeks to be great, let him be your servant.
01:58:42 --> 01:58:48 And the next thing is, you know, I've been married to my high school sweetheart for 25 years now.
01:58:48 --> 01:58:53 And we have a large family, six children, three boys and three girls.
01:58:54 --> 01:58:59 And so in a lot of ways, I've already been representing something larger than
01:58:59 --> 01:59:03 myself my entire adult life, because every day I've had to go out here in the
01:59:03 --> 01:59:06 world, I've had to think about others before I think about myself.
01:59:07 --> 01:59:11 Decisions I make, the things I choose to believe or entertain,
01:59:12 --> 01:59:16 the approach I take to solving issues.
01:59:17 --> 01:59:21 I've had to think about others before I think about myself. And the way I look
01:59:21 --> 01:59:27 at it, when I'm elected to represent District 81 here in Georgia,
01:59:27 --> 01:59:30 here in Henry County, Georgia, I'm just kind of building on that.
01:59:30 --> 01:59:32 I'm expanding my family.
01:59:32 --> 01:59:36 We're family now. And so as I go out and about.
01:59:36 --> 01:59:40 I understand that, look, it's not about me. It's about those who sent me.
01:59:40 --> 01:59:41 I'm here to represent them.
01:59:41 --> 01:59:48 And I have to think about them, the policies I choose to entertain.
01:59:49 --> 01:59:52 Legislation and how I vote, things of that nature.
01:59:52 --> 01:59:59 I have to think about the people here in the district. And I've been doing that my entire adult life.
01:59:59 --> 02:00:03 And then thirdly is actually being from the soil, Being a working man,
02:00:04 --> 02:00:07 you know, I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
02:00:08 --> 02:00:14 It's been, you know, it's been a rough road to to be able to have a a modicum
02:00:14 --> 02:00:17 of the American dream and have a middle class existence.
02:00:17 --> 02:00:21 And so I know how many of the working
02:00:21 --> 02:00:25 and middle class families here in District 81 in Henry County feel.
02:00:26 --> 02:00:29 I know every day they get up, they have to think about how they're going to
02:00:29 --> 02:00:32 keep food on the table, how they're going to put a roof.
02:00:32 --> 02:00:36 Over their head. They have to think about their health insurance premiums.
02:00:36 --> 02:00:38 They have to think about their car insurance premiums.
02:00:38 --> 02:00:44 They have to think about affordability and not because some political consultant
02:00:44 --> 02:00:48 conducted a poll and said, look, this is going to be a good buzzword for this election cycle,
02:00:48 --> 02:00:53 but because they actually have, many of our families here have,
02:00:53 --> 02:00:55 let's be honest, have one foot on a banana peel,
02:00:56 --> 02:00:58 one or the other on economic oblivion.
02:00:59 --> 02:01:03 And so I get them, and I understand that, and I know how they feel.
02:01:03 --> 02:01:14 And one thing that they'll never have to doubt is that I'm at the state capitol advocating for them,
02:01:14 --> 02:01:18 advocating for working families and middle-class families because I am them.
02:01:18 --> 02:01:20 I'm just like them. We're the same.
02:01:20 --> 02:01:25 So I get them, and I believe it's that experience.
02:01:25 --> 02:01:32 It's that interconnectedness it's my roots to what it means to actually be a
02:01:32 --> 02:01:37 working person in this country that makes me the best candidate for this position.
02:01:39 --> 02:01:45 So you just posted a video concerning traffic congestion in Henry County. Yes, sir.
02:01:46 --> 02:01:50 Explain to the listeners why that is an important issue in your district.
02:01:50 --> 02:01:54 Oh, wow. Yeah, it's an important issue in our district because,
02:01:54 --> 02:01:59 look, I just came from an event that was maybe about 30 minutes away,
02:01:59 --> 02:02:04 and it took me an hour to get back down here to exit 212 where I live.
02:02:05 --> 02:02:08 It took an hour. That's how congested the traffic was, right?
02:02:08 --> 02:02:12 And I'm a truck driver by profession, so that can already tell you one of my
02:02:12 --> 02:02:17 biggest pet peeves is sitting in traffic, especially when it's unnecessary.
02:02:17 --> 02:02:23 There's no climate event. There's no accident or anything. It's merely from
02:02:23 --> 02:02:28 the amount of vehicles on the roadway at any given time.
02:02:28 --> 02:02:33 And for as long as I can remember, it's always kind of been this way right here
02:02:33 --> 02:02:38 in this particular part of Henry County and Interstate 75.
02:02:38 --> 02:02:45 Now, some of the things that Governor Kemp is proposing with that roadway project
02:02:45 --> 02:02:50 package is expanding Interstate 75 and adding two more lanes.
02:02:50 --> 02:02:54 And as I said in that video that you referenced, that's a good starting point,
02:02:54 --> 02:02:56 but that's not the end all and be all.
02:02:57 --> 02:03:01 If we add two more lanes, it doesn't mean that that's going to reduce traffic.
02:03:01 --> 02:03:05 In fact, I can even argue that what you're doing is you're creating more incentive
02:03:05 --> 02:03:08 for vehicles to be on the road if you create two more lanes.
02:03:08 --> 02:03:14 So that's one part. But we have to think about maybe alternative transit methods.
02:03:14 --> 02:03:20 Maybe we need to look at getting some or expanding Henry County's transit because
02:03:20 --> 02:03:22 Henry County does have a transit service.
02:03:23 --> 02:03:27 Albeit a small one, but it does exist. Maybe we need to think about expanding that.
02:03:28 --> 02:03:33 Some of the other things that I've proposed is a lot of these surface roads,
02:03:33 --> 02:03:37 especially in rural parts of the district, we need to expand those roads.
02:03:37 --> 02:03:43 We need to maybe make some of those four-lane highways instead of these two-lane
02:03:43 --> 02:03:45 highways and country roads, because look,
02:03:45 --> 02:03:52 that will create alternate pathways and roadways for travelers on the road who
02:03:52 --> 02:03:56 are commuting to and fro, they don't have to get on the interstate.
02:03:56 --> 02:04:00 You see? So that takes more vehicles off the interstate.
02:04:00 --> 02:04:05 So while we all welcome that news and appreciate Governor Kemp's.
02:04:06 --> 02:04:13 Initiative, it's bigger than that. We're going to have to do more, but it is a good start.
02:04:13 --> 02:04:16 And look, a 20-minute trip
02:04:16 --> 02:04:23 to the grocery store shouldn't turn into an hour-long odyssey simply because
02:04:23 --> 02:04:28 there are so many vehicles on the roadway and you're inching and creeping and
02:04:28 --> 02:04:33 crawling along the interstate or Beale Gardner Parkway right here in the district
02:04:33 --> 02:04:35 or Peaksville or whatever it is.
02:04:36 --> 02:04:40 So that's one of the things that's been a major part of my platform.
02:04:40 --> 02:04:43 I'm going to continue to advocate for that.
02:04:43 --> 02:04:47 And when I'm at the state capitol, we're going to get more funds for more roadway
02:04:47 --> 02:04:53 projects to make commuting here in Henry County friendlier and safer for everyone.
02:04:54 --> 02:04:58 Now, I don't know how y'all do it in Georgia.
02:04:58 --> 02:05:05 I know when I served, it was like, you know, I first got in,
02:05:05 --> 02:05:13 I had to ask, you know, I had to go and talk to the speaker about what committees I wanted to be on.
02:05:14 --> 02:05:19 Um, you know, it was like one speaker, you had to physically go in and have
02:05:19 --> 02:05:23 that meeting. The next speaker I served under, it was like, he,
02:05:23 --> 02:05:28 he gave us like a form to fill out and we filled it out.
02:05:28 --> 02:05:32 And then after we filled it out, then he'd call you into a meeting to kind of
02:05:32 --> 02:05:36 tell you which committees he was going to put you on on your request list right
02:05:36 --> 02:05:41 so the reason why i'm telling that story is because the question i want to ask
02:05:41 --> 02:05:46 you is are you are you going to try to get on the transportation committee since
02:05:46 --> 02:05:47 that's a major issue for you.
02:05:49 --> 02:05:52 Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I would like to be on a transportation committee,
02:05:53 --> 02:05:58 an energy committee and or an education or health care committee,
02:05:58 --> 02:06:04 because some of the some of the other things that are parts of my platform is,
02:06:04 --> 02:06:10 look, we don't want data centers here just popping up all over Henry County, all over District 81.
02:06:10 --> 02:06:12 That's becoming a hot topic here in the district.
02:06:13 --> 02:06:17 A lot of residents, as I speak with them and talk to them, they're concerned about it.
02:06:17 --> 02:06:20 We're concerned about what it's going to do to to the environment,
02:06:20 --> 02:06:26 to the quality of our soil and water here in District 81 education.
02:06:26 --> 02:06:31 I'm big on that, I believe, and, you know, making sure our children have safe,
02:06:31 --> 02:06:32 clean schools to attend.
02:06:32 --> 02:06:36 Just the other day at one of our schools here in the district,
02:06:36 --> 02:06:42 Union Grove High School, there was some some firearms found that a student brought to school.
02:06:42 --> 02:06:47 And that could have potentially went been a disaster. We don't even have to
02:06:47 --> 02:06:51 have to go into detail about it. What's understood doesn't need to be explained.
02:06:52 --> 02:06:57 So that's why I would be interested in the education committee and something
02:06:57 --> 02:07:00 dealing with health care and health care services, because something else that's
02:07:00 --> 02:07:04 near and dear to my heart is Georgia's high maternal mortality rate,
02:07:04 --> 02:07:07 which last time I looked, it was the second highest in the nation.
02:07:08 --> 02:07:14 And that's why Governor Kemp and state Republicans run around touting how great
02:07:14 --> 02:07:16 Georgia is for business.
02:07:16 --> 02:07:22 When it's obviously not great for families. It's not great for our mothers.
02:07:22 --> 02:07:24 It's not great for children.
02:07:25 --> 02:07:28 So that's why I would be interested in being on a health care program.
02:07:29 --> 02:07:36 Some type of health care committee. All of these things are things that are near and dear to me.
02:07:36 --> 02:07:43 These arise from seeing problems and seeing things that need to be attended to.
02:07:43 --> 02:07:48 And that's why I'm running on them. It's not from a political consultant told
02:07:48 --> 02:07:51 me to say this, this would be good messaging.
02:07:51 --> 02:07:58 No, it's because I'm going there to solve problems and fight for things that
02:07:58 --> 02:08:02 folks here in the district care about and things I care about.
02:08:02 --> 02:08:08 And so those would be the committees that I would be interested in being a part of.
02:08:09 --> 02:08:14 Yeah, because you listed certain issues as your priorities and you mentioned
02:08:14 --> 02:08:19 about protecting our students and improving public education and reducing Georgia's
02:08:19 --> 02:08:21 maternal mortality rate.
02:08:22 --> 02:08:26 Absolutely. But you also talked about supporting law enforcement and investing
02:08:26 --> 02:08:28 in small business owners.
02:08:28 --> 02:08:34 So since you mentioned mortality rate and education, what,
02:08:35 --> 02:08:38 me ask you this question as you
02:08:38 --> 02:08:41 stated Georgia's maternal mortality rate
02:08:41 --> 02:08:46 is among the worst in the country absolutely 33.9 deaths
02:08:46 --> 02:08:49 per 1 000 live births and that's
02:08:49 --> 02:08:53 including the young woman Adriana smith
02:08:53 --> 02:08:56 the Georgia woman was declared brain dead but kept
02:08:56 --> 02:08:59 on life support until her baby was born
02:08:59 --> 02:09:02 nationally black women
02:09:02 --> 02:09:05 are three times as likely to die from pregnancy related
02:09:05 --> 02:09:09 causes as white women right so what
02:09:09 --> 02:09:12 legislatively can you do to re
02:09:12 --> 02:09:18 increase this mortality rate well some of the things I can do legislatively
02:09:18 --> 02:09:25 is support house bill 149 which is a a bill that Representative Imani Barnes
02:09:25 --> 02:09:30 is co-sponsoring with some other Democrats.
02:09:30 --> 02:09:34 And that's the Healthy Mothers Now Act.
02:09:34 --> 02:09:41 And what that bill looks to do is to create these mobile maternal care units,
02:09:41 --> 02:09:46 where if a woman is, especially in rural parts of the state,
02:09:46 --> 02:09:49 like I said, much of my district is rural.
02:09:49 --> 02:09:54 We're seeing shuttered hospitals in our rural communities.
02:09:54 --> 02:10:01 So what that bill looks to do is to create these mobile maternal care units
02:10:01 --> 02:10:05 that so if a woman is in labor, they go to her.
02:10:06 --> 02:10:14 And what it looks to do is increase the expediency of the health care services
02:10:14 --> 02:10:18 that that mother would need.
02:10:18 --> 02:10:23 Some of the other things that we need to do, we need to look at mental health services,
02:10:23 --> 02:10:29 because part of what's comprised in that maternal mortality rate is postpartum
02:10:29 --> 02:10:34 depression, is the mental health of the mother.
02:10:34 --> 02:10:41 So some of the things I could do as a legislator is get dollars allocated for
02:10:41 --> 02:10:45 those types of services to help
02:10:45 --> 02:10:50 our mothers who have just given birth and are trying to figure it out.
02:10:51 --> 02:10:55 And look, some of the other things is we need to increase funding for hospitals.
02:10:55 --> 02:11:01 We need to make sure we're making investments in our health care system here
02:11:01 --> 02:11:09 in Georgia so that it's more robust so we don't continue to have hospitals closing all over the state.
02:11:10 --> 02:11:17 So just from a legislative standpoint, those are some very practical things
02:11:17 --> 02:11:23 that I could do in my capacity as state representative is to get that done.
02:11:23 --> 02:11:27 And finally, the other thing that I could do is I can help raise awareness to the issue.
02:11:27 --> 02:11:35 Last year in September, I partnered with Connecting Henry, the mayor of McDonough
02:11:35 --> 02:11:36 at the time, Mayor Sandra Vincent,
02:11:37 --> 02:11:41 and we put on a maternal mortality town hall. And so we brought...
02:11:42 --> 02:11:50 Representatives from Healthy Mothers Now. We brought in leaders from civic organizations,
02:11:51 --> 02:11:59 the teacher-parent union, and we had that conversation and we spoke about maybe
02:11:59 --> 02:12:02 increasing funding for doulas and midwives.
02:12:02 --> 02:12:06 That's something else that can be done. And so that is something that I look
02:12:06 --> 02:12:14 to do as I continue to march toward securing and winning this election for this sheet.
02:12:14 --> 02:12:20 But once I'm elected, that's an annual event that we want to put on.
02:12:20 --> 02:12:22 And we look to be able to partner with Piedmont Henry.
02:12:23 --> 02:12:29 We look to be able to partner with our local gynecological providers here in
02:12:29 --> 02:12:34 Henry County and District 81 and continue to build it and expand it.
02:12:35 --> 02:12:40 And so, because look, some of this is if you're a nursing or expecting mother
02:12:40 --> 02:12:44 and there's a resource that can help you with an issue you're having and you
02:12:44 --> 02:12:47 don't know, well, then it might as well not exist.
02:12:47 --> 02:12:52 See, so by us putting on that maternal mortality town hall and something that
02:12:52 --> 02:12:54 we want to make annual, we want to grow it, we want to expand it,
02:12:55 --> 02:12:57 that can help get information.
02:12:58 --> 02:13:03 To mothers here in Henry County and in the district and families here in Henry
02:13:03 --> 02:13:09 County in the district that may not otherwise know that there's services and
02:13:09 --> 02:13:11 help available for them.
02:13:12 --> 02:13:17 Would you support legislation that offered Medicaid reimbursement for doula services?
02:13:18 --> 02:13:23 Absolutely. Now, of course, that's in principle for me.
02:13:23 --> 02:13:29 And I've talked about this even since, you know, my last, the last election cycle.
02:13:30 --> 02:13:34 It's going to come down to language with the way I vote.
02:13:34 --> 02:13:40 It's going to come down to how the bill is written, what's all within the bill.
02:13:40 --> 02:13:46 How is it going to to be rolled out how is it going to be implemented things
02:13:46 --> 02:13:50 of that nature but in principle yes that's something that i would support yeah
02:13:50 --> 02:13:57 and i you know i'm glad you said that because that's that's something that people
02:13:57 --> 02:13:59 need to be aware of because,
02:14:00 --> 02:14:08 in the legislative process there could be a bill that has you know something that you really like,
02:14:09 --> 02:14:12 right it's stuck in a bill that's got 18
02:14:12 --> 02:14:15 things that you know is either going to be bad for
02:14:15 --> 02:14:19 your people or you just can't stay exactly and and
02:14:19 --> 02:14:23 and it's like well i thought you said you was for that yeah but i wasn't for
02:14:23 --> 02:14:27 all this other stuff you know i'm saying i had to know and i couldn't pull that
02:14:27 --> 02:14:34 other thing out so yeah right yeah so i'm glad that you you said it answered
02:14:34 --> 02:14:36 it the way you did because sometimes,
02:14:36 --> 02:14:39 you know, people get, we get caught up in,
02:14:40 --> 02:14:45 you know, they'll try to throw something in a bill to get you to vote for it,
02:14:45 --> 02:14:47 but it's a bad bill overall.
02:14:47 --> 02:14:49 And it's like, yeah, no, I can't do that.
02:14:49 --> 02:14:53 So I'm glad you answered it that way. Yes, sir.
02:14:53 --> 02:15:00 Getting back to the schools, a May 2025 survey indicated that 60% of Georgia
02:15:00 --> 02:15:05 parents felt schools were less safe than they were a decade ago.
02:15:05 --> 02:15:10 What is your plan to improve public schools and make them safer?
02:15:10 --> 02:15:13 Well, we need a quick.
02:15:14 --> 02:15:22 A quick action response plan for, you know, let's just let's just let's just
02:15:22 --> 02:15:26 tell the truth for a potential active shooter situation.
02:15:27 --> 02:15:32 Unfortunately, in this day and age, that's something that we have to seriously consider.
02:15:32 --> 02:15:37 Some of the other things that I would be I would be interested in is what types
02:15:37 --> 02:15:44 of things we can do from a from an equipment perspective that makes our classroom safer.
02:15:44 --> 02:15:50 So whether this is specialized doors and locks in the event of that type of
02:15:50 --> 02:15:52 an active shooter scenario,
02:15:52 --> 02:15:57 do we need to look at maybe in some of our schools here in Henry County,
02:15:57 --> 02:16:01 implementing or installing metal detectors,
02:16:01 --> 02:16:04 more resource school resource officers?
02:16:04 --> 02:16:11 Also, too, is we have to look at the mental component of some of these situations.
02:16:11 --> 02:16:19 We have to maybe look at providing some of our students with conflict resolution
02:16:19 --> 02:16:22 training, you know, things of that nature.
02:16:23 --> 02:16:27 Also, some of the other things that can be done when it comes to safety is maybe
02:16:27 --> 02:16:34 we can put in some type of alert system throughout the county for our schools when there is.
02:16:36 --> 02:16:41 Weather event, whether there is a tornado. Here, I believe that was last year,
02:16:41 --> 02:16:45 there was a major tornado that hit down right here in Locust Grove in the district
02:16:45 --> 02:16:48 over, right on the other side of Interstate 75.
02:16:49 --> 02:16:56 That famous actor from the wire, his son was hurt very badly by that tornado.
02:16:57 --> 02:17:00 I've actually made note of this as I ride around the district.
02:17:00 --> 02:17:04 Some of these tornado warning systems look like they've been there since the 50s.
02:17:05 --> 02:17:08 We need to look at updating those.
02:17:08 --> 02:17:18 You know, so those are just some other practical things that we can do to make our schools safer.
02:17:19 --> 02:17:25 And then again, is engaging with parents and students and raising awareness,
02:17:25 --> 02:17:31 increasing the flow of information of safety tips, safety protocols,
02:17:31 --> 02:17:34 things of that nature, working with our school board.
02:17:34 --> 02:17:37 Here in District 81, Dr.
02:17:37 --> 02:17:43 Pam Nutt is our school board member, and I have a relationship with her.
02:17:43 --> 02:17:48 So I would be working with her, talking with her, getting her insight and take
02:17:48 --> 02:17:55 on how do we make sure we're making our children safe while they're at school.
02:17:55 --> 02:18:00 We don't send our children to school to be harmed or to put them in danger.
02:18:00 --> 02:18:04 And so that's something that I believe in. And you know, I'm not just blowing
02:18:04 --> 02:18:08 smoke because my son is 16 years old.
02:18:08 --> 02:18:11 He's a junior and he goes to Locust Grove High School.
02:18:12 --> 02:18:17 And so I would be lying if I said that when I heard about these two firearms
02:18:17 --> 02:18:20 being found at Union Grove High School, My mind didn't fall on my son.
02:18:21 --> 02:18:27 So I have my own personal interest for ensuring the safety and security of our
02:18:27 --> 02:18:29 schools here in Henry County and District 81.
02:18:31 --> 02:18:34 Yeah. So the Georgia legislature,
02:18:34 --> 02:18:41 they passed the School Safety Act that came to effect in July of this year that
02:18:41 --> 02:18:49 requires public schools to install mobile panic alert systems directly to 911 and law enforcement.
02:18:50 --> 02:18:54 So if you were in the legislature, you would have voted for that, right?
02:18:55 --> 02:19:01 Absolutely. I would have voted for it. Yeah, but the thing is, the trick is,
02:19:01 --> 02:19:05 and I haven't looked at the bill, the trick is, does that fall under the school
02:19:05 --> 02:19:13 districts to fund it, or is that something the state's going to give some money towards, right?
02:19:13 --> 02:19:17 Right. I think it should be collaborative. It should be collaborative effort.
02:19:18 --> 02:19:22 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I was going, because it's like sometimes we'll
02:19:22 --> 02:19:29 say, okay, you know, I remember folks, we want y'all to do this, right?
02:19:30 --> 02:19:33 It's real quick. It was like, I remember folks had this notion,
02:19:33 --> 02:19:38 well, they need to put the motto in God we trust in all our schools in Mississippi, right?
02:19:39 --> 02:19:45 So I got up there and I said, now, you know, we haven't allocated any money
02:19:45 --> 02:19:48 for the school districts to do that.
02:19:49 --> 02:19:53 You know, it's like, regardless of how you feel about religion and all this
02:19:53 --> 02:19:59 stuff, my issue is you expect each school district to put this in and the state
02:19:59 --> 02:20:03 didn't give a dime to help them do that.
02:20:03 --> 02:20:09 And because I brought that issue up, they amended the bill so that each district
02:20:09 --> 02:20:15 could get local businesses to pay for those plaques to go up in those classrooms.
02:20:15 --> 02:20:18 Right. so yeah it's like it's it's some
02:20:18 --> 02:20:21 it's what we call an unfunded mandate and right
02:20:21 --> 02:20:24 exactly so one of the things i hope
02:20:24 --> 02:20:29 you know that you're you're sensitive to and
02:20:29 --> 02:20:33 and you can get your colleagues when you get in there sensitive to is that make
02:20:33 --> 02:20:38 sure that it's like if we're gonna say well we want you or require you to do
02:20:38 --> 02:20:45 that that you you make sure that there's some money attached to it So that the school districts,
02:20:45 --> 02:20:51 excuse me, can afford to take care of that. Right.
02:20:51 --> 02:20:53 Yeah. All right. So.
02:20:54 --> 02:20:58 Law enforcement many counties
02:20:58 --> 02:21:01 in georgia have the municipal police
02:21:01 --> 02:21:04 department a county police department and then
02:21:04 --> 02:21:07 the sheriff's department right or sheriff's
02:21:07 --> 02:21:13 office do you feel like georgia has too many police departments or not enough
02:21:13 --> 02:21:18 do i feel that if georgia has too many police departments or not enough well
02:21:18 --> 02:21:23 i certainly don't believe they have too many police departments now do i feel,
02:21:24 --> 02:21:25 that they don't have enough.
02:21:27 --> 02:21:33 I think we do have enough. I think we do. I think we do have enough.
02:21:33 --> 02:21:39 You mentioned the Municipal Police Department, the Sheriff's Office,
02:21:39 --> 02:21:44 and the County Police Department, because I know that's how it is here in Henry County.
02:21:44 --> 02:21:48 Now, and then I kind of can see where you're coming from because when you get
02:21:48 --> 02:21:51 to the municipal part, it's like, okay, maybe it's a bit redundant,
02:21:53 --> 02:21:56 because i know the like
02:21:56 --> 02:21:59 the other day my wife had a had a
02:21:59 --> 02:22:03 minor fender bender and so they were waiting for the for the police and so you
02:22:03 --> 02:22:08 know a blue cop car a cop car pulled up with their blue lights and it was stockbridge
02:22:08 --> 02:22:11 it was the stock stockbridge police but she wasn't in stockbridge she was in
02:22:11 --> 02:22:15 locust groves it was like oh well y'all gotta wait on henry county so i can
02:22:15 --> 02:22:18 kind of see while you're asking that question.
02:22:18 --> 02:22:24 It can be, I guess, be a bit redundant and unnecessary to be a bit redundant
02:22:25 --> 02:22:28 But I don't think in and of itself we have too many.
02:22:28 --> 02:22:35 My concern is this, is that in spite of how many we have, I believe they should be supported.
02:22:36 --> 02:22:42 And that's why last election I was very supportive of the bill that was put
02:22:42 --> 02:22:46 forth by Senator Brian Strickland and Senator Emanuel Jones.
02:22:46 --> 02:22:50 I can't remember the number of that bill off the top of my head.
02:22:50 --> 02:22:59 But what it did is it expanded the amount of disability that our police officers
02:22:59 --> 02:23:04 receive if they are hurt within the line of duty, because prior to that,
02:23:04 --> 02:23:07 they were only receiving about 60 percent of their salary.
02:23:08 --> 02:23:13 Now, I believe they're receiving up to maybe even 90 percent or higher of their
02:23:13 --> 02:23:17 salary if, God forbid, they get hurt in the line of duty.
02:23:17 --> 02:23:26 So my main concern is and will always be, are we supporting our law enforcement officers?
02:23:26 --> 02:23:32 In spite of how many precincts or law enforcement entities exist,
02:23:32 --> 02:23:38 they are our men and women in uniform. They put their lives on the line every day.
02:23:38 --> 02:23:43 And I think that's the least we can do as a grateful and appreciative society.
02:23:43 --> 02:23:47 It's like I tell folks all the time, I feel, I feel safer when I see police
02:23:47 --> 02:23:51 officers, I don't feel less safe, you know? So that's how I would answer that question.
02:23:52 --> 02:23:57 Yeah. And, and, you know, you brought up about that because I had that experience
02:23:57 --> 02:23:59 when I was in law enforcement, I got hurt.
02:23:59 --> 02:24:03 And so the issue was, um,
02:24:03 --> 02:24:11 If I if it had just been workers comp, then I got like, you know, two thirds of my salary.
02:24:12 --> 02:24:15 Like, but I qualified for FMLA.
02:24:16 --> 02:24:22 So I was going to get my full salary and have enough time to rehab the injury. Right.
02:24:22 --> 02:24:29 So, yeah. So, you know, to change that where law enforcement wouldn't,
02:24:29 --> 02:24:32 you know, fall under the same as anybody else.
02:24:32 --> 02:24:38 And workers comp, that makes sense, you know, to make sure that they have the
02:24:38 --> 02:24:44 time to recover, you know, because it could be anything from a car accident, a gunshot.
02:24:45 --> 02:24:53 Right. You know, in my case, it was like I was trying to grab somebody and it damaged my hand.
02:24:54 --> 02:25:01 Right. And so, you know, so I had to go to rehab to get my hand at least so
02:25:01 --> 02:25:03 I could do my job again. Right.
02:25:04 --> 02:25:08 So, yeah, yeah, I understand your support for that.
02:25:09 --> 02:25:12 Do you believe that police officers need.
02:25:13 --> 02:25:17 Mandatory counseling like say every six
02:25:17 --> 02:25:20 months to make sure that the stress of the job doesn't
02:25:20 --> 02:25:23 escalate like to try to be like the
02:25:23 --> 02:25:28 one recently in minnesota absolutely not now i won't say i won't say mandatory
02:25:28 --> 02:25:34 i think that's a strong word maybe maybe recommended and if they they attend
02:25:34 --> 02:25:40 the the therapy or the session then they get some type of incentive for doing
02:25:40 --> 02:25:42 it so i wouldn't use mandatory,
02:25:42 --> 02:25:47 I think that may be a bit too bit of a word that's too strong,
02:25:47 --> 02:25:54 but maybe recommended or suggested, and if they take advantage of the therapy services,
02:25:54 --> 02:25:59 then in some type of way, shape, form, or fashion, they receive some incentive.
02:25:59 --> 02:26:06 Maybe more time added on to their PTO, maybe an extra day off with pay,
02:26:07 --> 02:26:10 some type of way where we can create,
02:26:12 --> 02:26:18 desire for them to go to those services willingly, not where they feel like they're forced.
02:26:19 --> 02:26:23 And it sounds like you understand another lesson about legislation.
02:26:24 --> 02:26:32 The one thing that I learned real quick is the difference between may and shall.
02:26:33 --> 02:26:37 If you see a bill that says may, then
02:26:37 --> 02:26:40 that gives latitude you know it
02:26:40 --> 02:26:43 allows choice and judgment if you say shall that
02:26:43 --> 02:26:46 means you've got to do that right and so
02:26:46 --> 02:26:50 yeah that's that's another that's one thing when you're looking at them bills
02:26:50 --> 02:26:55 it's like is it let's say shall again yeah that's it that's it that's us that's
02:26:55 --> 02:27:00 yeah that's the language part of it you know you gotta pay attention to that
02:27:00 --> 02:27:04 um right so some members of
02:27:04 --> 02:27:07 the legislature some of the democratic members had a
02:27:07 --> 02:27:10 press conference recently and they were
02:27:10 --> 02:27:14 talking about certain bills dealing with law enforcement and one of that's been
02:27:14 --> 02:27:20 introduced to senate bill 389 which would ban ICE agents from wearing masks
02:27:20 --> 02:27:26 and require federal agents working on immigration enforcement to wear an identification
02:27:26 --> 02:27:28 badge how do you feel about that.
02:27:30 --> 02:27:33 I agree with that. I agree with that.
02:27:33 --> 02:27:38 Look, one of the things that we hear all the time from campaigning politicians
02:27:38 --> 02:27:41 is this idea and this notion of transparency in our government.
02:27:41 --> 02:27:46 And yet, when it comes time for you to execute transparency in our government,
02:27:47 --> 02:27:49 now it's a problem and you don't want to do that.
02:27:50 --> 02:27:53 Why do these ICE agents need
02:27:53 --> 02:27:57 to be have on masks why don't
02:27:57 --> 02:28:00 why don't they have to identify themselves and
02:28:00 --> 02:28:04 again and this is something that you know that I've I've kind of talked to about
02:28:04 --> 02:28:10 you know I tell people it's like look when we talk about the government we are
02:28:10 --> 02:28:14 the government that's the type of government we have the people are the government
02:28:14 --> 02:28:18 and so these law enforcement officers.
02:28:19 --> 02:28:21 ICE, and immigration enforcement.
02:28:21 --> 02:28:25 We respect them. We want them to go out there and do a good job. We want them to be safe.
02:28:26 --> 02:28:30 We want those who they're interacting with to be safe.
02:28:30 --> 02:28:37 And I don't see how greater transparency makes any of those things less likely to happen.
02:28:37 --> 02:28:41 I think if we're more transparent with immigration enforcement,
02:28:41 --> 02:28:47 if we're more transparent with how these ICE agents are operating,
02:28:47 --> 02:28:53 I think it creates a safer environment and a more secure environment for everyone involved.
02:28:54 --> 02:28:56 I don't see what harm could come from that.
02:28:57 --> 02:29:00 You know, you touched on a good point because, you know, the title that you're
02:29:00 --> 02:29:06 seeking is representative because the average everyday citizen doesn't have
02:29:06 --> 02:29:10 time to, you know, go down to the Capitol building and make a decision.
02:29:10 --> 02:29:15 So they choose a representative to handle their business. That's why you have that. Right.
02:29:15 --> 02:29:20 And the other thing is public service is like you're a servant.
02:29:20 --> 02:29:28 You're supposed to serve the people, not not dictate to the people. And so, yeah, yeah.
02:29:28 --> 02:29:33 So I'm cool with the answer that you gave on that one.
02:29:34 --> 02:29:37 All right. So the last thing we were talking about was small business.
02:29:38 --> 02:29:44 Georgia is considered the 19th best state in the nation for small businesses.
02:29:44 --> 02:29:49 How do you want the state of Georgia to invest more in small businesses?
02:29:50 --> 02:29:52 Well, we need to give access to startup capital.
02:29:53 --> 02:29:58 Particularly as it relates to underserved communities.
02:29:58 --> 02:30:02 Look, we all want access to the American dream.
02:30:03 --> 02:30:07 We all want to be able to achieve and be all that we can be.
02:30:07 --> 02:30:13 And it's my belief that the fundamental premise of our government is to create
02:30:13 --> 02:30:14 opportunity, not obstacles.
02:30:15 --> 02:30:20 And this is something that you hear Republicans talk about all the time.
02:30:20 --> 02:30:24 And I just so happen to agree with them is the idea of regulations.
02:30:24 --> 02:30:28 They look at regulations as obstacles or obstructions.
02:30:28 --> 02:30:36 OK, so let's let's apply that same logic to to many of our small business owners
02:30:36 --> 02:30:39 who, because they're small business owners, are startups.
02:30:39 --> 02:30:46 So we need to look at providing some type of startup capital through maybe grants.
02:30:47 --> 02:30:54 Funding some type of programs where these budding entrepreneurs can take advantage
02:30:54 --> 02:30:59 of a training program, a session, or whatever the case is.
02:30:59 --> 02:31:05 Write a grant, and then the state in some kind of way can help them get that
02:31:05 --> 02:31:08 business off the ground.
02:31:08 --> 02:31:13 It's operating, it's functional, and who knows what it can grow into.
02:31:13 --> 02:31:17 And look, this is something else too when it comes to small business development
02:31:17 --> 02:31:21 and supporting small businesses. It's not just small businesses.
02:31:21 --> 02:31:25 We have to look at our micro businesses. See, because that word small,
02:31:25 --> 02:31:30 when people hear that phrase, small business, they're thinking about the mom
02:31:30 --> 02:31:35 and pop storefront that they drive by on their way home.
02:31:35 --> 02:31:40 They're thinking about the landscaper who cuts their grass. What they're not
02:31:40 --> 02:31:42 thinking about is some of these.
02:31:43 --> 02:31:49 Companies who may have 100, 200 employees. So how are we quantifying what it
02:31:49 --> 02:31:52 means to be a small business owner?
02:31:53 --> 02:31:56 We have to think about our micro business owners.
02:31:56 --> 02:32:03 That's something that I'm looking to do is put more of a focus on our micro business owners.
02:32:03 --> 02:32:08 And the reason why is because of this, because micro businesses are the ones
02:32:08 --> 02:32:13 who are the most cost sensitive to fluctuations in the market.
02:32:13 --> 02:32:18 This is something that we've seen with Donald Trump's disastrous tariff policies.
02:32:18 --> 02:32:22 A lot of the businesses that have had to scale back.
02:32:23 --> 02:32:29 Shutter their operations, shut everything down, are our micro-business owners
02:32:29 --> 02:32:36 because they simply can't handle the added tax of these tariffs that Donald Trump,
02:32:36 --> 02:32:38 President Trump, has been pursuing.
02:32:38 --> 02:32:44 So in my advocacy and in my fighting for small businesses,
02:32:45 --> 02:32:52 I'm going to put a special lens and focus on our micro business owners who are
02:32:52 --> 02:32:57 just everyday men and women who may not have come from a lot of money,
02:32:57 --> 02:33:00 who may not have come from a lot of privilege,
02:33:00 --> 02:33:03 but have an idea, have the will,
02:33:03 --> 02:33:10 have the get up and go, and just simply need a fair shot at success.
02:33:11 --> 02:33:17 And so those are the types of businesses that I really want to pay attention to.
02:33:18 --> 02:33:24 Obviously, you know, we can talk about tax incentives for our businesses who
02:33:24 --> 02:33:29 are hiring right here from the community locally. And.
02:33:30 --> 02:33:38 Know, our mom and pop grocers and storefronts. And so when I'm state representative,
02:33:39 --> 02:33:40 when I'm representing the district,
02:33:40 --> 02:33:45 that's something that I intend to do. And then the other component of this, Mr.
02:33:45 --> 02:33:48 Fleming, also is awareness.
02:33:49 --> 02:33:56 Partnering with the Henry County Chamber of Commerce, which I am a member and, you know,
02:33:56 --> 02:34:03 having, you know, training programs and and small business fairs where we can
02:34:03 --> 02:34:11 give them more access to greater information, because as you and I both know,
02:34:11 --> 02:34:14 knowledge is power. where you can't do better if you don't know better.
02:34:14 --> 02:34:19 And so those are just some of the things I think that needs to be done that
02:34:19 --> 02:34:22 we can do, again, from a practical standpoint.
02:34:23 --> 02:34:26 And I look forward to getting that done when I'm elected.
02:34:27 --> 02:34:32 So District 81 is one of the most diverse legislative districts in Georgia.
02:34:33 --> 02:34:38 Last go around, you received 47% of the vote.
02:34:39 --> 02:34:44 Well, 43%. It was 43%. I said it was 43%, but who's counting?
02:34:45 --> 02:34:48 Well, I gave you 47%, you know, either way.
02:34:48 --> 02:34:51 I understand. You was watching the scoreboard more than I was.
02:34:52 --> 02:34:59 I understand. What would make 2026 the year you become the next representative for District 81?
02:35:00 --> 02:35:06 Oh, wow. Well, some of the things is this time I'm out the entire election cycle.
02:35:06 --> 02:35:12 I think people forget I didn't get into the race till July of 2024.
02:35:12 --> 02:35:16 So I was kind of on a limited I was on a very limited clock.
02:35:16 --> 02:35:21 And so I'm out talking to folks, knocking doors, going to every part of the
02:35:21 --> 02:35:23 district, talking to even many Republicans.
02:35:23 --> 02:35:27 Some of the things we've seen from congressional Republicans
02:35:27 --> 02:35:33 and even some state Republicans is this hesitance to hold town halls and talk
02:35:33 --> 02:35:37 with their constituents because they know that many of the things that's being
02:35:37 --> 02:35:43 implemented from the national level that's trickling down to the state isn't
02:35:43 --> 02:35:45 popular with a lot of folks.
02:35:45 --> 02:35:53 Even many of their own bases So if you won't talk to them I will And I'm going to The other thing is.
02:35:54 --> 02:35:59 You know, we are, there's a lot of demographic shifts taking place in this district.
02:35:59 --> 02:36:03 It's trending in that direction.
02:36:03 --> 02:36:07 And aside from that, this is some of what I can tell you, Mr.
02:36:07 --> 02:36:10 Fleming, is as I've been going out knocking doors, the energy,
02:36:11 --> 02:36:16 the feel, and the vibe is vastly different from what it was in 2024.
02:36:16 --> 02:36:20 People are engaged. Many people are outraged.
02:36:20 --> 02:36:27 Many people are enthused. and are chomping at the bit to express their frustration
02:36:27 --> 02:36:31 with the direction of our country through their vote.
02:36:31 --> 02:36:37 And so there's been times I went up to doors and knocked, and that conversation
02:36:37 --> 02:36:41 turns into a 30-minute conversation. And, of course, I'm doing more listening
02:36:41 --> 02:36:45 than talking because that's the job of a representative.
02:36:46 --> 02:36:49 In order for me to go to the state capitol in order to fight for her.
02:36:50 --> 02:36:56 For you. I have to know what you care about and what has stoked your ire,
02:36:56 --> 02:36:57 you know, what grinds your gears.
02:36:58 --> 02:37:03 And so we're out a lot early. We're knocking doors, talking to folks.
02:37:03 --> 02:37:09 We are letting them know what's at stake in this next election cycle.
02:37:09 --> 02:37:14 And we're letting them know what Mishael White aims to do for them when I go
02:37:14 --> 02:37:16 up there to that state Capitol.
02:37:17 --> 02:37:21 Something that we've seen, And it just happened here recently in a special election,
02:37:22 --> 02:37:30 District 121, my fellow Fighting 50 candidate, Eric Gisler, flipped a Trump
02:37:30 --> 02:37:35 district that he just lost in 2024.
02:37:35 --> 02:37:42 He got 39 percent of the vote and it is go around. He got 50.1 percent of the vote.
02:37:42 --> 02:37:45 And so we think that that is a trend that bodes well.
02:37:45 --> 02:37:52 We think that we have a really good shot, and we think we do have crossover
02:37:52 --> 02:37:55 appeal to many Republican voters,
02:37:55 --> 02:38:01 moderate Republican voters who don't agree with what they're seeing coming down
02:38:01 --> 02:38:04 from this Trump administration.
02:38:04 --> 02:38:09 And coupled with the fact that, look, the economy isn't great right now.
02:38:09 --> 02:38:11 We have inflation.
02:38:12 --> 02:38:20 The economy is teetering on the brink of being under a verified recession.
02:38:21 --> 02:38:27 And so there's a lot of meat on the bone when it comes to talking to folks about
02:38:27 --> 02:38:33 the issues that are impacting them in their everyday life.
02:38:33 --> 02:38:36 And so that's what we intend to do. That's what we are doing.
02:38:36 --> 02:38:41 And we fully intend on being successful this November in 2026.
02:38:41 --> 02:38:42 We're going to get it done.
02:38:43 --> 02:38:47 So I've been asking all of my guests this question this year.
02:38:49 --> 02:38:53 So finish this sentence. I have hope because...
02:38:55 --> 02:38:58 People I have hope because the people the
02:38:58 --> 02:39:01 thing that that gives me hope is the people
02:39:01 --> 02:39:04 look i don't i don't believe that we are
02:39:04 --> 02:39:12 as ugly as our timelines tell us we are i think the reason why we we've seen
02:39:12 --> 02:39:21 so so much effort from those in power from maga that's just that's just keep it real, from MAGA,
02:39:21 --> 02:39:28 when it comes to this ugliness, when it comes to the normalizing of hate speech
02:39:28 --> 02:39:32 is not because they're trying to convince us that's who they are.
02:39:32 --> 02:39:36 It's because they're trying to convince us that's who we are.
02:39:36 --> 02:39:41 And if that's who we are fundamentally as a country, as Americans,
02:39:41 --> 02:39:46 as Georgians, as residents in District 81, why do you have to go through so
02:39:46 --> 02:39:48 much effort to show us that.
02:39:49 --> 02:39:54 I have faith in the people. When I go throughout District 81,
02:39:54 --> 02:39:56 I don't see that ugliness.
02:39:57 --> 02:40:01 I see people from all different walks of life, all different races,
02:40:02 --> 02:40:09 all different political beliefs in community with one another. I see them at food banks.
02:40:09 --> 02:40:17 I see them at churches. I see them at our local parades and different events
02:40:17 --> 02:40:20 in the county and in the district and community.
02:40:20 --> 02:40:28 No one is yelling and screaming or being nasty or being hateful.
02:40:28 --> 02:40:32 And this is one thing I always go back to, Mr.
02:40:32 --> 02:40:35 Fleming, is the American people may be distracted.
02:40:36 --> 02:40:38 They may be disinterested.
02:40:38 --> 02:40:42 They may be discouraged. but they are not stupid.
02:40:43 --> 02:40:45 They know a bad deal when they see one.
02:40:46 --> 02:40:52 They know when something isn't right and they know when we can do better.
02:40:53 --> 02:40:56 Now, does that mean I'm going to get everyone's support?
02:40:56 --> 02:41:01 Does that mean I'm going to be able to convince everyone that we have more that
02:41:01 --> 02:41:04 binds us together in community than not?
02:41:05 --> 02:41:10 No, it doesn't. But I don't have to get everybody. I only got to get 50.1 percent.
02:41:12 --> 02:41:18 And so I like my odds when it comes to that. I have hope because of the people.
02:41:20 --> 02:41:24 So if people want to get involved with the campaign, how can they do that?
02:41:24 --> 02:41:33 Well, they can send me an email at MishaelWhite4Georgia at gmail.com.
02:41:34 --> 02:41:42 They can follow my Instagram, MishaelWhite4FORGeorgia. And you can also catch
02:41:42 --> 02:41:45 me on Facebook at Mishael White.
02:41:45 --> 02:41:47 Those are my social medias. That's
02:41:47 --> 02:41:51 my email. Again, my email is Mishael White, the number for Georgia.
02:41:52 --> 02:42:03 That's M-I-S-H-A-E-L-W-H-I-T-E, the number four Georgia at Gmail dot com.
02:42:03 --> 02:42:06 Look, we need all the help we can get.
02:42:06 --> 02:42:09 And the thing that I want people to understand is that this is more than just
02:42:09 --> 02:42:13 about a campaign. This is a movement. This is the people's movement.
02:42:13 --> 02:42:23 This is about working families, working men and women, and letting the power
02:42:23 --> 02:42:26 structure know in no uncertain terms that this is our country too.
02:42:26 --> 02:42:30 We have more to offer than just our backs and our labor.
02:42:30 --> 02:42:38 And no longer will we allow crusaders on the left and activists on the right to drown out our voices.
02:42:38 --> 02:42:43 Our time has come and our time is now. And that's why we're going to be successful.
02:42:45 --> 02:42:49 Well, Mr. White, I wish you much success, brother, on this journey.
02:42:49 --> 02:42:54 I am not envious of you because I've been there, done that, and I know how hard it is.
02:42:55 --> 02:43:00 But I appreciate you getting out there and offering yourself a service.
02:43:01 --> 02:43:09 And I also appreciate you taking a lot of time to come on this podcast and talk to the listeners.
02:43:09 --> 02:43:12 So I thank you so much.
02:43:12 --> 02:43:15 And thank you so much for having me, Mr. Fleming. You know,
02:43:15 --> 02:43:21 your words of wisdom and encouragement have meant everything to me because you
02:43:21 --> 02:43:29 are someone who's been there and done that in a state like Mississippi, no less.
02:43:29 --> 02:43:33 So I know you are battle tested.
02:43:33 --> 02:43:38 You know what it takes to not only win, but to serve and be a good legislator and actually do the job.
02:43:39 --> 02:43:43 And so I look forward to continuing to have you have you in my corner.
02:43:43 --> 02:43:48 Your support and your knowledge and your wisdom means everything everything
02:43:48 --> 02:43:55 to me thank you so much you're too kind brother all right guys we're gonna catch y'all on the other side.
02:44:07 --> 02:44:14 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Nekima Levy-Armstrong for coming
02:44:14 --> 02:44:20 on and giving us an update about what's going on in Minnesota.
02:44:21 --> 02:44:25 She has been one of the leaders in organizing the community,
02:44:25 --> 02:44:37 and it means something to see one of us being respected enough and having the
02:44:37 --> 02:44:44 credibility to be the voice for the people in Minnesota.
02:44:45 --> 02:44:50 And, you know, in the show, especially the black community, solidarity with
02:44:50 --> 02:44:57 the rest of the city in dealing with the invasion of ICE and,
02:44:57 --> 02:45:02 you know, especially after the tragic death of Renee Nicole Good.
02:45:04 --> 02:45:08 And, you know, she reminded us in the interview that this is not the first rodeo
02:45:08 --> 02:45:13 that they've had to go through dealing with tragedies with the police.
02:45:14 --> 02:45:20 And, you know, and that they're willing and ready to stand up against that.
02:45:21 --> 02:45:28 And, you know, just be reassured that what you see on the news and,
02:45:29 --> 02:45:32 you know, and all the tough talk that's coming out of Washington,
02:45:32 --> 02:45:36 that there are people in Minneapolis, St.
02:45:36 --> 02:45:41 Paul, as well as in the whole state of Minnesota, that's resisting.
02:45:42 --> 02:45:46 And that they're not going to waver in that resistance.
02:45:46 --> 02:45:54 I want to thank Dr. Kem Laurin Lubin for coming on and educating us about the
02:45:54 --> 02:45:58 work that she's doing to make sure that artificial intelligence,
02:45:58 --> 02:46:02 as it's being incorporated more and more in our daily lives,
02:46:03 --> 02:46:08 that she's one of the people on the front line to make sure that Black folks
02:46:08 --> 02:46:11 are in the conversation, in the programming,
02:46:11 --> 02:46:13 in the designing, all that stuff.
02:46:14 --> 02:46:19 And her crusade to make sure that it is beneficial to.
02:46:20 --> 02:46:23 And not harmful to us, right?
02:46:24 --> 02:46:29 You know, very, very passionate sister about that work. Very intelligent sister.
02:46:30 --> 02:46:37 And as they say in a lot of the action movies, I'm glad she's on our side, right?
02:46:38 --> 02:46:45 And finally, Mishael White. This is a young brother that I've had the pleasure of meeting.
02:46:45 --> 02:46:54 And he's going up against a MAGA Republican in his race for District 81 in the
02:46:54 --> 02:46:57 state of Georgia, House District 81.
02:46:58 --> 02:47:03 And, you know, when I say MAGA, I mean like the unrepentant MAGA,
02:47:04 --> 02:47:11 like whatever you hear Karoline Leavitt or Stephen Miller or Donald Trump or J.D.
02:47:11 --> 02:47:15 Vance, out or out of their mouths, she parrots everything.
02:47:17 --> 02:47:22 And we're hopeful that the good folks in Henry County have had enough of that.
02:47:25 --> 02:47:31 And we'll go ahead and support him in his endeavor to be a true representative
02:47:31 --> 02:47:34 for all of them instead of just a select few, right?
02:47:35 --> 02:47:39 Because that's what really this is all boiling down to.
02:47:40 --> 02:47:44 You know, when you hear people say,
02:47:46 --> 02:47:50 say that they're looking out for the best interests of the United States,
02:47:50 --> 02:47:57 but all of their strategies and all of their talking points and all of their
02:47:57 --> 02:48:05 slogans that they use were borrowed from a guy who wanted to take over the world,
02:48:05 --> 02:48:12 who wanted to create an empire and use the acts of terror and war to do that.
02:48:14 --> 02:48:20 You know, if you're going to serve the people, you serve them with compassion
02:48:20 --> 02:48:24 and integrity and not terror, right?
02:48:25 --> 02:48:31 You know, somebody wrote that Stephen Miller was taught that the two strongest
02:48:31 --> 02:48:37 emotions in politics were hope and fear. And that's correct.
02:48:39 --> 02:48:45 And Barack Obama won because of hope, but fear is more powerful.
02:48:45 --> 02:48:49 And you should utilize that. That's what this guy told Stephen Miller,
02:48:49 --> 02:48:51 and Stephen Miller has run with that.
02:48:52 --> 02:48:56 Right? And everybody, President Trump, Vice President Vance,
02:48:57 --> 02:49:04 Secretary Noem, Secretary Hegseth, all these people, They want to bully and intimidate
02:49:04 --> 02:49:08 and oppress us into submission.
02:49:08 --> 02:49:17 And we're not going for that. That's not the ideal of this nation. That's not.
02:49:18 --> 02:49:21 That's not the spirit of humans, right?
02:49:23 --> 02:49:28 All we want to do is live our lives and live it abundantly.
02:49:28 --> 02:49:32 You've heard me say that over and over, and I will continue to impress upon that.
02:49:33 --> 02:49:36 And the fact that you're listening, I think you agree with that.
02:49:36 --> 02:49:47 I think you agree with the fact that you can probably get more from us if you respect us.
02:49:47 --> 02:49:55 But if you're in constant denial and you're constantly petulant and petty and, you know,
02:49:55 --> 02:50:02 just hitting all of the lowest common denominator emotions to present yourself
02:50:02 --> 02:50:04 to the nation and the world,
02:50:05 --> 02:50:10 it's natural for most of us, the overwhelming majority of us,
02:50:10 --> 02:50:15 to be disgusted and resist that.
02:50:15 --> 02:50:25 You know, we got a woman from another country who we went in and took the leader,
02:50:25 --> 02:50:31 and she was the opposition to that leader that we took,
02:50:31 --> 02:50:33 arrested, right?
02:50:34 --> 02:50:39 But she had to give up an award that she had earned for the work she was doing
02:50:39 --> 02:50:45 in that country, even though she still is the Nobel laureate.
02:50:45 --> 02:50:52 She just actually gave the physical medal to the president just to get his support
02:50:52 --> 02:50:57 to do the right thing, because he felt that he should have won the award.
02:50:58 --> 02:51:03 When we're talking about the Nobel Peace Prize, it's like you have to earn that.
02:51:03 --> 02:51:06 You know, you can't lobby for that.
02:51:07 --> 02:51:11 It's not a popularity contest. You can't call the folks in Oslo,
02:51:11 --> 02:51:13 Norway and demand that they do it.
02:51:14 --> 02:51:19 These people see what's going on in the world, and they take the time out once
02:51:19 --> 02:51:23 a year to decide this is somebody we need to lift up.
02:51:23 --> 02:51:26 This is somebody that we need to put in an international spotlight.
02:51:27 --> 02:51:31 And if they felt that he was worthy, he would have got the award himself.
02:51:32 --> 02:51:42 But this woman is so committed to saving her nation that she would give up the
02:51:42 --> 02:51:46 medal that she earned just to get support.
02:51:47 --> 02:51:52 That's, you know, some people say, oh, she's caving in and all that stuff.
02:51:52 --> 02:51:58 You know, people that are committed to helping other people make sacrifices.
02:51:59 --> 02:52:05 They do. And, you know, a lot of us would have said, ain't no way I would have done that.
02:52:05 --> 02:52:10 But you haven't been in her shoes.
02:52:10 --> 02:52:13 You haven't been in her struggle personally.
02:52:14 --> 02:52:19 If you have relatives, if you're listening and you have relatives that live
02:52:19 --> 02:52:22 in Venezuela or come from Venezuela, Thank you.
02:52:23 --> 02:52:26 You know, not unless you're one of those folks, you don't understand.
02:52:28 --> 02:52:29 And she didn't give him the check.
02:52:31 --> 02:52:36 See, a lot of people don't know. Everybody thinks all is just a medal and you
02:52:36 --> 02:52:41 get this instant international recognition and you can write a book and make your money.
02:52:41 --> 02:52:45 No, they give you a check, too, for the work that you're doing.
02:52:46 --> 02:52:53 And, you know, they give you money to support the cause because it's a foundation.
02:52:54 --> 02:52:58 Nobel Prize was set up by the guy who invented dynamite.
02:52:58 --> 02:53:05 And the money he made off of that, he created a foundation to give awards for
02:53:05 --> 02:53:10 people that do work in chemistry and physics because he was a scientist in mathematics.
02:53:10 --> 02:53:18 And later on, they expanded it to peace because, you know, the invention that
02:53:18 --> 02:53:22 he came up with was used and has been used for war.
02:53:22 --> 02:53:25 It was supposed to be for an industrial purpose.
02:53:25 --> 02:53:31 But of course, you know, when folks realize the dynamite can kill people,
02:53:31 --> 02:53:32 they started using it for war.
02:53:33 --> 02:53:36 And so they incorporated the peace prize in that as well.
02:53:37 --> 02:53:45 And so since it's a foundation, they give money to the people that get the awards.
02:53:45 --> 02:53:50 So she didn't give them the check. I want y'all to be clear. She got the money.
02:53:50 --> 02:53:54 You know, it's gone into whatever charity she wanted to use or,
02:53:54 --> 02:54:00 you know, gone to her party for their political operations to try to regain
02:54:00 --> 02:54:01 control of Venezuela, whatever.
02:54:02 --> 02:54:05 But she didn't give Donald Trump the check. She gave him the medal.
02:54:06 --> 02:54:09 If that's what you want, if that's what makes you feel better,
02:54:09 --> 02:54:14 okay. Now I need your help, right? You know, and had he...
02:54:15 --> 02:54:20 Not try to throw her under the bus when Maduro was arrested,
02:54:20 --> 02:54:22 she probably wouldn't have had to do that.
02:54:22 --> 02:54:29 But he said that because in his pettiness, he was mad that she won the Nobel Peace Prize and not him.
02:54:30 --> 02:54:34 So he wanted to use that as a leverage point.
02:54:36 --> 02:54:39 And regardless of what political party you're affiliated with,
02:54:40 --> 02:54:42 that's not American leadership.
02:54:42 --> 02:54:47 That's not what we signed up. That's not, we don't vote for that, right?
02:54:48 --> 02:54:57 Well, the majority of us, you know, we want our president to be an example of
02:54:57 --> 02:54:59 Democratic leadership,
02:55:00 --> 02:55:04 an example of rising above the fray,
02:55:04 --> 02:55:08 not the cause of the fray, right?
02:55:09 --> 02:55:16 So I know some people had offered all sorts of opinions about that, but that's where I am.
02:55:16 --> 02:55:20 But I just want to offer some encouragement,
02:55:22 --> 02:55:26 Not just the people of Minnesota, but, you know, my hometown of Chicago and
02:55:26 --> 02:55:28 Los Angeles and New York.
02:55:28 --> 02:55:31 And it looks like, you know, not only the people in Portland,
02:55:32 --> 02:55:35 Oregon, but Portland, Maine as well, Washington, D.C.
02:55:35 --> 02:55:38 And anywhere else in this country.
02:55:38 --> 02:55:43 I want you to be encouraged and I want you to learn lessons from Dr. King.
02:55:45 --> 02:55:50 Right. It's like I said, this episode is dropping on the national record now. It's holiday.
02:55:51 --> 02:55:56 And there's a reason why this man, who was not a president of the United States,
02:55:56 --> 02:56:00 has a holiday named after him.
02:56:00 --> 02:56:03 It's because of the sacrifice.
02:56:03 --> 02:56:09 And by the way, he won a Nobel Peace Prize, too. and the commitment and the
02:56:09 --> 02:56:16 dedication to make sure that all of us can live our best lives,
02:56:16 --> 02:56:22 that all of us can be part of this beloved community, that all of us can coexist
02:56:22 --> 02:56:33 and do the work necessary to build a nation up instead of tear it apart, right?
02:56:35 --> 02:56:40 And, you know, he fought against systemic racism. He fought against.
02:56:41 --> 02:56:47 Evil, right? And, you know, one of the things he always wanted to stress is
02:56:47 --> 02:56:52 that we don't conquer hate with hate, we conquer hate with love.
02:56:53 --> 02:57:02 And so I want everybody that's listening that when you resist, that you resist in love.
02:57:02 --> 02:57:10 As you don't cater to the base emotion of revenge or anger, you know,
02:57:10 --> 02:57:15 you channel that and you defeat hate and bigotry with love.
02:57:16 --> 02:57:23 That's the most powerful weapon that we have, you know, from an international standpoint.
02:57:23 --> 02:57:28 Now, on the 3rd of November of 2026,
02:57:28 --> 02:57:37 we as American citizens can exercise our right to vote and change the leadership
02:57:37 --> 02:57:42 of the Congress and our respective states and counties and cities.
02:57:42 --> 02:57:45 We can change leadership that way.
02:57:45 --> 02:57:48 Some elections have already taken place, right?
02:57:49 --> 02:57:56 You know, some elections are getting ready to happen and throughout this year,
02:57:56 --> 02:58:04 and we can use our power of our vote to send that message of love and peace,
02:58:05 --> 02:58:08 through the ballot box. But in the meantime.
02:58:10 --> 02:58:14 Don't be scared to hit these streets. Don't be scared to send that email off.
02:58:15 --> 02:58:16 Don't be scared to make that phone call.
02:58:17 --> 02:58:21 Don't be scared to show up at the Capitol building or at City Hall or the county
02:58:21 --> 02:58:24 courthouse or wherever government is meeting.
02:58:24 --> 02:58:26 To let them know how you feel.
02:58:28 --> 02:58:38 And, you know, no matter how strident people that don't mean any good try to be,
02:58:39 --> 02:58:43 love conquers all, always has, always will.
02:58:44 --> 02:58:47 So do not be dismayed. Do not be discouraged.
02:58:47 --> 02:58:52 Go forth and continue to resist. Use your voices.
02:58:54 --> 02:58:57 And, you know, we're going to win.
02:58:58 --> 02:59:02 It's going to take time. It always has, always will.
02:59:03 --> 02:59:09 But we can't sit back and do nothing. We can't sit back and just hope it blows over.
02:59:09 --> 02:59:11 We have to be engaged.
02:59:12 --> 02:59:17 We don't have the luxury of apathy. We have to be engaged.
02:59:18 --> 02:59:24 So just be encouraged. Don't let what you see on the news get you to the point
02:59:24 --> 02:59:29 where there's no hope and, you know, get you down and depressed and all that.
02:59:30 --> 02:59:37 Just use that as fuel. Use that as motivation to do what you can to protect
02:59:37 --> 02:59:39 what is rightfully ours.
02:59:40 --> 02:59:45 And we'll get through it. We'll get through it. As long as I'm able to do this,
02:59:45 --> 02:59:48 I'll continue to be a voice out here.
02:59:48 --> 02:59:52 I know I'm not alone in doing what I'm doing.
02:59:52 --> 02:59:58 And you should not feel alone doing what you need to do to resist.
03:00:00 --> 03:00:04 So that's all I got, ladies and gentlemen. Appreciate y'all for listening.
03:00:04 --> 03:00:11 I hope you enjoy the fact that we're going to get as many guests on as we can
03:00:11 --> 03:00:15 because 2026 is a pivotal year.
03:00:15 --> 03:00:21 There's a lot of folks, you know, that's running for office and we're going
03:00:21 --> 03:00:24 to use this platform to get them on.
03:00:24 --> 03:00:29 But there's a lot of other people not running for office doing the work that's
03:00:29 --> 03:00:32 going to make this country better, make this world better.
03:00:33 --> 03:00:38 And so we're going to do our part to get as many of them on this year as we
03:00:38 --> 03:00:42 can so I appreciate y'all indulgence and your patience.
03:00:43 --> 03:00:49 And again we're going to win we're going to win alright thank y'all for listening.