Host Erik Fleming welcomes listeners and interviews two experts: Rajiv Vinnakota on rebuilding civic culture in colleges and engaging Gen Z, and Howard Yaruss explaining clear, practical economics.
The episode explores constructive campus dialogue, the college presidents initiative for civic preparedness, how young people want to engage in person, and accessible explanations of tariffs, crypto, national debt, and Social Security.
Erik closes with reflections on leadership, recent national events, and calls to support the podcast and civic causes.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:09 So I hope that everyone has had an awesome Thanksgiving holiday.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:14 As you are listening to this, you're getting back into the work week.
00:02:17 --> 00:02:24 You've recovered from your feasting and football and holiday shopping and all
00:02:24 --> 00:02:26 the traditional stuff that you do.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:31 We still got a couple of things going on, you know, the Cyber Monday,
00:02:31 --> 00:02:35 which would be today and Giving Tuesday and all that.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:37 So the holiday season is in full swing.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:44 And I just pray that everybody is doing well that's listening to the podcast.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:49 You know, and again, this is the season of giving as well as receiving.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:55 And so, you know, just find the causes that you believe in.
00:02:55 --> 00:03:01 There's one particular cause that we're going to have a guest on to talk about
00:03:01 --> 00:03:03 the work they're doing and that
00:03:03 --> 00:03:09 you can give to, you know, dealing with engaging people in this process.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:17 And then the other guest is, as we're spending this money during the holiday season,
00:03:17 --> 00:03:23 someone has written a book to try to help you better understand what's going
00:03:23 --> 00:03:30 on in the economy and just kind of break it down in a way where you can have
00:03:30 --> 00:03:32 intelligent conversations about it.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:39 And I know economics is not really a big topic in conversations,
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 but, you know, we don't look at it that way.
00:03:42 --> 00:03:46 But, you know, when we're making decisions about how many gifts we're going
00:03:46 --> 00:03:49 to buy and, you know, how we're going to pay our bills and all that,
00:03:49 --> 00:03:53 that's part of economics. You know, what jobs we're trying to get, all that.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:59 So we got a guest in that can kind of break that down. And he's written a book about that.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:03 Grace is not going to be here. We're not going to do any news.
00:04:04 --> 00:04:10 You know, we're going to try to keep this as short as possible in this deal.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:17 But I do have some commentary that I want to get into after you listen to our
00:04:17 --> 00:04:23 guests that I think, well, I know it's relevant to where we are.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:27 But I didn't really want to harp on any news this particular time.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:34 Time, let Miss Grace enjoy her holiday along with her family and other people.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:38 And, you know, y'all have some time not only listening to this episode,
00:04:39 --> 00:04:40 but maybe catch up with some.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 So if you want to catch up with some episodes, you can go to your,
00:04:45 --> 00:04:49 wherever you listen to this podcast and catch up, or you can go directly to
00:04:49 --> 00:04:57 momenterik.com and do that as well as subscribe to the podcast.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:02 That's right. We, you know, in the giving season, we would like for some of
00:05:02 --> 00:05:09 y'all to give us a subscription so we can keep this independent podcast going.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:16 You know, a scenario came up where if we had a significant amount of subscriptions,
00:05:16 --> 00:05:18 we could have taken advantage of it.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:23 But, you know, by this time next year, I think we'll be better off.
00:05:23 --> 00:05:27 And it's because of supporters and listeners like you. So let's go ahead and
00:05:27 --> 00:05:32 get this show started, this special holiday after Thanksgiving show.
00:05:33 --> 00:05:37 And I want this to be...
00:05:38 --> 00:05:44 I guess it's the title would be Dialogue and Understanding, because that's really
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 what this show is going to be about.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:52 And so the first guest I'm bringing forward is going to have the part about the dialogue.
00:05:52 --> 00:05:59 And his name is Rajiv Vinnakota. A pioneering social entrepreneur,
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 Rajiv Vinnakota serves as president of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:09 leading his mission to cultivate the talent, ideas, and networks that develop
00:06:09 --> 00:06:11 lifelong effective citizens.
00:06:12 --> 00:06:16 To that end, he works tirelessly to build relationships with the partners and
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 sponsors without whom citizens and scholars could not succeed,
00:06:20 --> 00:06:26 while at the same time, fostering a strong organizational culture focused on American civic values.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:33 Raj has dedicated his life to initiatives that help American citizens from all
00:06:33 --> 00:06:37 walks of life to become productive and engaged members of society.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:42 Early in his career, Raj co-founded the SEED Foundation, the nation's first
00:06:42 --> 00:06:46 network of public college preparatory boarding schools for underserved children.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 The SEED schools were featured in both television and film, and Raj won multiple
00:06:52 --> 00:06:57 awards for his work with SEED, including Harvard University's Innovation and
00:06:57 --> 00:06:58 American Government Award,
00:06:59 --> 00:07:05 Fast Company Monitor Group's Social Capitalist Award, and Oprah Winfrey's Use Your Life Award.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:09 Roz continued to serve on the board of directors for SEAT.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 Before joining the Institute for Citizens and Scholars, Raj served as Executive
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 Vice President of the Aspen Institute.
00:07:17 --> 00:07:21 In this role, he launched and led the new Youth and Engagement Programs Division
00:07:21 --> 00:07:26 devoted to youth leadership development and civic engagement and opportunity.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:32 Raj currently co-chairs the Civics and Civic Engagement Task Force for the United
00:07:32 --> 00:07:39 States Congress Semi-Quincentennial Commission, celebrating the 250th anniversary
00:07:39 --> 00:07:40 of the country's founding.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:46 Raj also co-chairs the Civic Learning Pillar of the Partnership for American
00:07:46 --> 00:07:51 Democracy, a coalition of American leaders directing resources and attention
00:07:51 --> 00:07:53 toward efforts to save U.S.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:56 Democracy, and serves on the Advisory Committee for Citizen Data.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:01 Raj has been at the forefront of innovative scholarship and research that has
00:08:01 --> 00:08:04 played a pivotal role in shaping the civic field.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:10 His publication credits include From Civic Education to a Civic Learning Ecosystem,
00:08:10 --> 00:08:15 mapping civic measurement, and the civic outlook of young adults in America.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:20 He is a Forbes contributor and appears regularly in media outlets such as Associated
00:08:20 --> 00:08:27 Press, NPR, The Hill, Chronicle of Higher Education, Philanthropy News Digest,
00:08:27 --> 00:08:29 and Nonprofit Quarterly.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 As an expert on civic learning and Gen Z,
00:08:33 --> 00:08:38 he has spoken at Fordham Institute, Results for America Civic Learning Week
00:08:38 --> 00:08:43 The Ronald Reagan Presidential Library And as commencement speaker For the University
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 of Chicago Charter School And the University of Pittsburgh.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:51 Raj grew up in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, the child of Indian immigrants who instilled
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 in him the faith that a good education could open doors to great things.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:59 He graduated from Princeton University and is a recipient of Princeton's Woodrow
00:08:59 --> 00:09:04 Wilson Award, the university's highest honor for undergraduate alumni.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:09 In addition to being a former trustee and executive committee member for Princeton
00:09:09 --> 00:09:14 University, Raj is the former national chair of its annual giving committee.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:19 Raj is also the recipient of an honorary doctorate from Rutgers University.
00:09:19 --> 00:09:25 He is also board director for two public companies, Inovus Corporation and ESAB.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:30 He lives in Maine with his wife, daughter, and cat.
00:09:31 --> 00:09:35 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:09:35 --> 00:09:39 on this podcast, Rajiv Vinnakota.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 Raj Vinnakota. How you doing, sir? You doing good?
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 I'm doing well, Erik. How about you? I'm doing lovely, my man.
00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 Doing lovely. That's great.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:02 Just getting ready for this Thanksgiving and, you know, just,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:08 just, I live for holidays now just to be off work.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:12 That's, that's, I mean, you know, all the food, tradition, all that stuff,
00:10:12 --> 00:10:17 football, whatever, that's just to be off work is, is, is, is my joy for the holidays now.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 So I hope that you and yours are going to have a good holiday.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:24 Thank you. And I equally love November and December as well.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:27 So that's great. Yeah, that's right.
00:10:27 --> 00:10:32 So what I like to do to kind of get things kicked off is to,
00:10:32 --> 00:10:35 I do a couple of icebreaker exercises.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 So the first one is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:45 And the quote is, watching my mother in action, the beautiful whirling dervish
00:10:45 --> 00:10:47 that she was and still is.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 I saw the incredible value of bringing people together in joy.
00:10:51 --> 00:10:54 Celebration, and share creativity. it.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:57 What does that quote mean to you? It means everything.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:03 My parents and I are immigrants. We moved here when I was eight and we moved
00:11:03 --> 00:11:05 to Milwaukee where we grew up.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:11 And my mom was the center of the Indian world, bringing people together, eating good food,
00:11:12 --> 00:11:15 actually having culture, even in a town where, you know, there are about 40
00:11:15 --> 00:11:21 Indians there and forever instilled in me the value of bringing disparate people
00:11:21 --> 00:11:23 together in shared belonging.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:28 And thankfully, she's still alive with us today. And it is something that she does to this day.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:35 Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. So now the next one is what I call 20 questions.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:39 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:47 Twelve. Okay. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:52 Propaganda, misinformation, disinformation, however you want to label it?
00:11:52 --> 00:11:56 The first thing I ask people to do when they get information is to say,
00:11:56 --> 00:11:59 where did this come from? Who said it?
00:11:59 --> 00:12:03 And what's the source, which may be different than where did it come from?
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 And to go and make sure that not only you understand that, but then ask yourself,
00:12:09 --> 00:12:13 is there anything else that corroborates this information?
00:12:14 --> 00:12:19 You need to have a curiosity and always ask that question, almost to the point
00:12:19 --> 00:12:23 of paranoia, right? of saying, am I sure that this information is real?
00:12:23 --> 00:12:29 And can I go corroborate it with a different point of view that also says the same thing? Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:35 You know, and most people just don't put the effort into doing that.
00:12:36 --> 00:12:41 And, and, and in this political climate now, people have taken advantage of that.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:45 And, you know, I just got through watching that documentary,
00:12:46 --> 00:12:47 the American Revolution.
00:12:48 --> 00:12:57 And, and the impact of the press, especially Thomas Payne was very, very amazing to me,
00:12:58 --> 00:13:05 because, you know, we look at how we print out stuff and how we can get information out so quick.
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 And just to think that they had these crude printing presses and,
00:13:09 --> 00:13:13 you know, they were showing the guys stamping the, you know,
00:13:13 --> 00:13:14 the ink and all that stuff.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:20 And he was cranking out all this stuff and the United States was getting their
00:13:20 --> 00:13:26 butt kicked and he was cranking out these pamphlets to keep people encouraged and to keep people.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 I said that that's, that was incredibly powerful. And we don't talk about him
00:13:31 --> 00:13:35 as much as we talk about any of the other quote unquote founding fathers,
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 but I mean, to have somebody to just, you know, and, you know,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:42 from the British side, I'm sure there was propaganda, but it was just like.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:50 You know, just the power of information, the power of the word, just amazing.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:55 So I just, when you were talking about making sure you understand the source
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 and all that, it just brought that to mind.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:02 Can I respond to that for a moment? Sure, sure. So two things.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:07 One is I read somewhere that Common Sense by Thomas Paine is the second most
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 published piece of work from that century, you know, after I think the Bible,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 right? It just had such a profound impact.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:22 And I think it's also the importance of storytelling, is that storytelling is what motivates people.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:25 It's what both brings facts and emotion together.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:30 And that is an arc that we have to keep going, right? What's the storytelling
00:14:30 --> 00:14:33 arc of how we even talk about our lives today?
00:14:34 --> 00:14:38 And that's one of the things I've tried to highlight on this podcast,
00:14:38 --> 00:14:40 being a political person,
00:14:41 --> 00:14:47 is that, you know, that's an art that, you know, a lot of people think it's
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 easy, but it's really it's really not.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 And if you look at the political people that we deal with, they don't know how to tell stories.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 They know how to either regurgitate facts or scare the hell out of you,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:04 but they don't tell stories. Right. So, yeah, I appreciate you bringing that up.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:13 So you had started your own deal with SEED, but David, you took this job to
00:15:13 --> 00:15:16 be the president of the Institute for Citizens and Scholars.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:18 What motivated you to do that?
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 So a couple of things happened after I left SEED in 2015.
00:15:22 --> 00:15:27 And I think the single most important thing was that I realized that our house
00:15:27 --> 00:15:30 was on fire, that democracy was under assault,
00:15:31 --> 00:15:37 and that we needed to be able to make sure that our youngest generation,
00:15:37 --> 00:15:43 those 68 million young people between the ages of 10 and 24 who are entering the public square,
00:15:43 --> 00:15:47 that they're the kinds of citizens who actually know how to engage in self-government.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:51 Because if we do that well, I think we'll be fine as a country.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:56 If we don't, I think we want to continue this backsliding towards authoritarianism.
00:15:56 --> 00:16:01 So that's the overall view. When I was approached by being president of this
00:16:01 --> 00:16:04 organization, which at that point was still known as the Woodrow Wilson National
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 Fellowship Foundation, I said, you do great, great work in higher education.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 But I think that the single greatest problem we have, education problem we have
00:16:12 --> 00:16:15 in this country, is we've forgotten how to develop citizens.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 That's the issue I want to tackle. And the search committee said,
00:16:19 --> 00:16:21 come on in, give us a pitch, let us hear it.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 And so I did, and we discussed it, and I ended up getting the job.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:29 And I truly believe that this is the platform and the organization that can
00:16:29 --> 00:16:35 create the social momentum with so many other organizations that reprioritizes
00:16:35 --> 00:16:37 the development of citizens in this country.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:45 Yeah. Why is it important to have constructive dialogue and civic preparedness on college campuses?
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 Well, we can even start more broadly, right? Why is it important to have constructive
00:16:49 --> 00:16:53 dialogue and civic preparedness in general is because we are a nation that believes
00:16:53 --> 00:16:58 in self-government, that it is our responsibility as individuals to decide the
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59 direction of our country,
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 to engage in that in different ways, and then to hold our government accountable.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:09 That requires the ability to engage across difference, right?
00:17:09 --> 00:17:10 That's what constructive dialogue is.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:15 How do you actually engage in civil discourse, empathize, take different perspectives?
00:17:15 --> 00:17:19 Secondly, how do you collaboratively problem solve? How do you work with people
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 with whom you may not agree to try to solve our common problems?
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 And the third, Erik, you already mentioned this, was how do you discern and
00:17:26 --> 00:17:27 use reliable information?
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 All three of those things are important. Well, guess what?
00:17:31 --> 00:17:36 Colleges are rare places where young people actually encounter people with very
00:17:36 --> 00:17:40 different thinking, where disagreements shouldn't be avoided but explored,
00:17:40 --> 00:17:44 and kind of, you know, the habits of democracy can be practiced.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 That's what it should mean to go to college, in addition to getting yourself
00:17:48 --> 00:17:51 ready for a career and networking and so on and so forth.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:55 So creating that culture, colleges can do that, and that's how we support them.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:02 All right. In 2024, many high-profile universities failed to protect free expression
00:18:02 --> 00:18:06 in foster environments where people can disagree productively.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:09 What are your strategies to change that?
00:18:10 --> 00:18:14 You know, we're working with more than 100 college presidents now on this very issue.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:21 And what we say often is, it's not about a single course, it's about changing a culture.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:27 Or, at certain institutions, further cementing a culture around these notions
00:18:27 --> 00:18:33 of civil discourse, collaborative problem-solving, and then understanding information.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 Now, how do you do that? You need to do it in such a way that every student
00:18:38 --> 00:18:42 learns about these issues and then practices them on your campus multiple times a year.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 So you can't just have like a center on campus or you can't just bring a few
00:18:46 --> 00:18:50 speakers or have one great faculty member because guess what?
00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 That means a majority of your students aren't going to be doing this.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 So the way in which you change culture is you make sure that it's in the courses,
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 you make sure that it's in orientation and other programming, right?
00:19:02 --> 00:19:04 So you believe and really focus on skills development.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 But you need to do two other things. You need to create the motivation for young
00:19:09 --> 00:19:10 people to want to do this, right?
00:19:10 --> 00:19:14 You can teach them as many skills as you want. If they actually don't want to learn it, they won't.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 And so creating the motivation is really important.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 And then the third thing you need to do, as is true of any culture,
00:19:20 --> 00:19:24 is you need to create the social permission for those young people to use these
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 skills when it's necessary, right?
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 And that happens through creating peer support, right?
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 How is your members of student government? How are your fraternities and sororities
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 talking about this? How are your college athletes talking about this and saying,
00:19:36 --> 00:19:37 this is the right way to act and then,
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 even when you don't agree with people. So it's a much broader approach.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:46 That's what we work with presidents to do. How do you get this and inculcate
00:19:46 --> 00:19:48 it into everything that you do as an institution?
00:19:49 --> 00:19:55 So is that the basis of your college presidents for civic preparedness initiative?
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 That is exactly the basis for it. Now, interestingly enough,
00:19:59 --> 00:20:02 Eric, this happened, we started to have these conversations in 2020.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:07 I literally would pick up the reach out email and then phone different college
00:20:07 --> 00:20:11 presidents and just say, what are you doing to prepare your students to be good citizens?
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 And it was interesting because presidents would give us different answers.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 And I purposely chose really broad and different institutions, right?
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 Wesleyan, Rutgers, Howard, Purdue, Claremont McKenna College,
00:20:25 --> 00:20:27 so on and so forth. Very different institutions, different leaders.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 But they kept telling me two things.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 First is that higher education, colleges and universities had lost their way
00:20:35 --> 00:20:40 in terms of focusing around the preparation of their students to be citizens,
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 that they were just focusing on how do we get our graduates to get a job.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 And that's critical, right? I'm not suggesting it isn't important,
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 but colleges and universities have a broader responsibility and mandate.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 And part of it is preparing students and frankly, everyone on your campus to
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 be good citizens. And they weren't doing that.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:01 And the second theme they kept telling me over and over again is,
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 even when we try to do this and try to make bold initiatives,
00:21:05 --> 00:21:10 it's really hard to sustain that work, get lots of pushback from different parts
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 and corners and stakeholders on our campus.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17 So for us, we were suddenly like, would there be value in actually creating
00:21:17 --> 00:21:21 a coalition of the willing, call it kind of collective power of college presidents,
00:21:21 --> 00:21:24 to create cover, support each other,
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 look for best practices? So that was the impetus.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:31 Started with 11 presidents. When we announced ourselves in 2023,
00:21:31 --> 00:21:33 we did with 14 presidents.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:38 And it's really taken off. As I said, we're now at 125 college presidents from
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 more than 37 states in the District of Columbia.
00:21:41 --> 00:21:47 Yeah. And that's, that's really, really encouraging. I, so my next question,
00:21:47 --> 00:21:56 I guess, is kind of cynical in that because of what has happened since,
00:21:56 --> 00:22:01 since the Trump administration has gotten in and I've watched all these institutions
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 that, oh, you're going after them.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:08 Oh, you, you about to get your brains beat out and then watch them kind of fold.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:13 So the question came to me is like, should institutions of higher education
00:22:13 --> 00:22:18 be entrusted in rebuilding one to public trust and true strengthening democracy?
00:22:18 --> 00:22:24 Because I'm sorry, if Harvard doesn't fight for it, the oldest institution in
00:22:24 --> 00:22:31 the United States, if they capitulate, what hope is there for the 125 colleges
00:22:31 --> 00:22:32 that you're working with?
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 I mean, what hope is there for some of the smaller like HBCUs?
00:22:36 --> 00:22:42 I mean, give me some hope, Raj. What are we doing? Is that what I'm doing, Eric? So...
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 Let's remember, right, that, and I know you know this, right,
00:22:46 --> 00:22:49 that there's strength in power and in coalition, right?
00:22:49 --> 00:22:54 So if institutions are singly kind of taken off, that's going to be a problem.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:59 But the reason why presidents came to us is creating this coalition to say we're
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 all in this together and we're all on this journey together.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 So first is, it's much easier to break a single stick than write all these sticks
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 together. So that's an aspect of this.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:17 Secondly is, this is a really interesting position where everyone actually agrees
00:23:17 --> 00:23:19 that colleges and universities need to be doing this.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:24 Even go read what the Trump administration is saying, or go read what the administration
00:23:24 --> 00:23:29 before it said. They all agreed that this needs to be an area of focus for our
00:23:29 --> 00:23:32 institutions, and we haven't been doing it as well as we need to.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:37 So in some ways, we're in an interesting position where everyone says,
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 how do we prioritize this, and how do we get to do this well?
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 And that's where we come in, because college presidents, these 125 who say,
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50 hey, we want to go do this, that road isn't easy, because what you're trying
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 to do is teach students to be able to argue, right? You want to teach them how
00:23:55 --> 00:23:56 to create their own positions.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:00 And if you do it well, sometimes things are going to blow up,
00:24:00 --> 00:24:04 right? And there's going to be back and forth and there's going to be tension.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:09 But the question is, how do you do it in the right frame? And so to be able
00:24:09 --> 00:24:14 to all do it together and say, we're all part of this movement and coalition creates power.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:20 And we can see the difference even in a few years for how the presidents are
00:24:20 --> 00:24:21 engaging and starting to make a difference.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:27 So, Erik, you know, we're about to start actually measuring the impact of our
00:24:27 --> 00:24:31 work on how students approach and think about speaking up, even if they feel
00:24:31 --> 00:24:35 they're a minority point of view and how comfortable they are debating with
00:24:35 --> 00:24:36 people who they don't agree.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:40 So over time, I hope that I can come back and say, here's the data.
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 But we're seeing it on the ground already that students are getting more comfortable with this.
00:24:45 --> 00:24:53 So, you know, I've I've had a number of history and and political science professors on the show.
00:24:54 --> 00:25:01 And naturally, those people believe in the engagement and believe in,
00:25:01 --> 00:25:05 you know, maintaining and strengthening democracy.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 And, you know, they talk about the joy of having these students come in and
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 being able to impart knowledge on them and encourage debate and all that.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 But that's expected, right?
00:25:17 --> 00:25:22 How do we get the math department to do it? How do you get the science department to do it?
00:25:22 --> 00:25:29 How do you build a culture on a campus just outside of the College of Liberal Arts, right?
00:25:29 --> 00:25:33 How do you build that culture where it's incorporated?
00:25:33 --> 00:25:40 You know, you're a big sports fan, you know, I mean, how do you get people to
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 understand that all this is connected?
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45 A great question. So let me give you two stories just to start with.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50 One is that we do this faculty institute to support faculty members to bring
00:25:50 --> 00:25:52 contentious issues in the classroom.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:57 And about 20% of the faculty members who come to our institute are actually
00:25:57 --> 00:26:00 from the STEM fields, science, technology, engineering, math.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:07 And there's actually a lot of new research and even books on how to bring civics into math.
00:26:07 --> 00:26:12 So for example, if you want to talk about doing a bond authority to build a
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 new baseball stadium, right?
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 Which we all know we've experienced at different times. And so there's a lot
00:26:18 --> 00:26:19 of math involved with that.
00:26:19 --> 00:26:22 But then you can also debate the implications of that.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:28 And so how you create the process that says, okay, here's the math that allows
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 us to understand what we're asking from the public.
00:26:30 --> 00:26:34 Now, let's also debate whether or not that's good policy, right?
00:26:34 --> 00:26:35 And what's the trade-offs and so on.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:39 So that's part of what we try to engage and teach our faculty members.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:43 And then let me tell you a second story, because about roughly speaking now,
00:26:43 --> 00:26:48 more than 10% of our presidents come from community colleges, right?
00:26:48 --> 00:26:52 Two-year institutions, associate's degrees, they go on to bachelor's and so on.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:57 And I was recently giving a talk at the state where I live. I live in Maine
00:26:57 --> 00:26:58 at York Community College.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 And we were talking about this. And at the end of it, the head of the nursing
00:27:02 --> 00:27:06 program came over and talked to me and I said, Raj, let me just tell you that
00:27:06 --> 00:27:12 every day I have to teach my nurses how to take incoming from the surgeon,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 from other members of the medical team, loved ones who want to know what's going
00:27:15 --> 00:27:17 on, sometimes even the patient.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:22 I have to get them to figure out how to triage, how to communicate effectively
00:27:22 --> 00:27:24 to all of them so that they can then go on and do what they need to do,
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27 and then do it over and over and over again.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 Raj, you call that civic skills. I call that teaching nursing.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:36 And it was a real aha moment to me that even though I talk about that kind of
00:27:36 --> 00:27:40 in the public space, there are so many jobs in other places where teachers,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:43 faculty members are already doing this.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:47 It's the exact same skills, and it's just being applied in different worlds.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:52 And so what I told this nursing leader, I said, keep doing it and just remind
00:27:52 --> 00:27:55 all of your nurses that they can take those very same skills and take it to
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 a community town council meeting, right?
00:27:58 --> 00:28:02 Or else plays because they've already developed those skills to be able to work
00:28:02 --> 00:28:03 with people across difference.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 So it's about making sure that other people understand that these skills are
00:28:08 --> 00:28:12 both life skills and they can be applied throughout the program and curriculum.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:20 Yeah, yeah. All right. So your eyes light up whenever we talk about young people,
00:28:20 --> 00:28:22 just a brief time that we've been talking.
00:28:22 --> 00:28:28 And you are considered a Gen Z whisperer. What is it about that generation that
00:28:28 --> 00:28:30 future political leaders should understand?
00:28:32 --> 00:28:34 Yeah. So first thing first, I don't know how much of a whisperer I am,
00:28:34 --> 00:28:40 but I certainly spent time both with them and doing all kinds of research to understand them.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:46 We actually just came out with a new report called the Gen Z Civic Vibe Check.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:49 It just came out actually about 10 days ago.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 And it's really interesting because I think the most important point to take
00:28:53 --> 00:28:59 away is that 90% of young people say they care about their communities and feel
00:28:59 --> 00:29:01 responsibility to improve them,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:08 but 42% of them say they would get more involved if they simply knew where to
00:29:08 --> 00:29:12 begin or had clear pathways to actually engage.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 So a significant part of our work has to be, how do we create the pathway so
00:29:18 --> 00:29:22 that they can see and say, oh, that's how I can work, that's how I can make
00:29:22 --> 00:29:23 a difference in our community.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:27 The second thing I'll say, and this may be very surprising, it wasn't to me,
00:29:27 --> 00:29:33 is that most of them, a super majority of them actually prefer in-person engagement,
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 right? They're not just staying on their phones or social media.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:42 77% say they're more likely to get involved if it's in-person than rather than
00:29:42 --> 00:29:47 online, which to me is a great news, right? Like that's how we want them engaged.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 And frankly, that's how you do the hard work of actually practicing democracy.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:55 And so we're learning more about what these young people want to do.
00:29:55 --> 00:30:01 And we realize that we need to both create role models, but also show them peers
00:30:01 --> 00:30:05 who are doing similar things so they can be like, oh, look, people just like
00:30:05 --> 00:30:08 me who are engaging in community and actually trying to make a difference.
00:30:09 --> 00:30:11 Yeah, that's vital.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:16 It doesn't surprise me. It just, it's encouraging.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:23 But, you know, I just have to be mindful, just me personally,
00:30:23 --> 00:30:27 and I think other people that are in politics need to be mindful. Just think back.
00:30:28 --> 00:30:32 Well, it's like parenting, right? Just think back when you were a child and
00:30:32 --> 00:30:37 what drove your parents crazy. And now you see your children doing it,
00:30:37 --> 00:30:38 right, or your grandchildren, whatever.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:45 But in a positive way in politics. And I love to tell the story about when Harold
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 Washington first got elected in Chicago, because he was the first black mayor.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:54 Yeah. And, you know, we are first time voters.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:58 We were the ones that were like totally engaged.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:03 I never met the man personally, but, you know, my parents had met him.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:06 You know, I've seen him on TV.
00:31:06 --> 00:31:11 Other people had a chance. And but it was just like you just felt like you were a part of something.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:18 Right. We were talking about Mamdani in New York, and they were saying how the
00:31:18 --> 00:31:19 young people just engaged.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 I said, but I can relate to that because the Harold Washington button,
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 the campaign button, was a fashion accessory.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:30 I'm of that generation where we were wearing buttons all over our jean jackets and whatever.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:33 And so if you didn't have the Harold Washington button, it didn't matter,
00:31:33 --> 00:31:38 well, the buttons you had, you weren't in fashion. And so that was the connection.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:47 And to hear that young people still want that, that's encouraging as far as
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 the human aspect of it, because it's the same.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:55 We talked about storytelling earlier and personal connection.
00:31:55 --> 00:32:02 I think that any person that wants to be a leader in this, in this nation,
00:32:02 --> 00:32:07 they have to master the ability to storytell and they have to be able to connect with people.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:14 And, you know, from a political consultant standpoint, that sounds wonky,
00:32:14 --> 00:32:17 but it's like, it's pretty basic because.
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 You know, that's how we function, right?
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 It's a very, yeah, it's a very human thing, Erik.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 You're absolutely right. And, you know, there's so many people now who talk
00:32:28 --> 00:32:30 about needing a sense of belonging, right?
00:32:31 --> 00:32:35 And it's Gen Z, like people are looking to get a sense of belonging because
00:32:35 --> 00:32:38 being on social media is actually a very lonely thing, right?
00:32:38 --> 00:32:43 It's how do I connect and feel part of larger movements? How do I actually engage?
00:32:43 --> 00:32:47 How do I feel that I'm making a difference, right? Like all of those things
00:32:47 --> 00:32:48 come back to the sense of belonging.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:55 Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, people try to make things really, really complicated and hard.
00:32:55 --> 00:33:01 And it's really, it's just, it's just a matter of tapping into your humanity.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:05 And once you tap into that, then you can be successful.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:08 I look at, you know, case study, John F.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:12 Kennedy, case study, Barack Obama, case study, Ronald Reagan.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:19 You know, it's like those particular, there's actually generations attached
00:33:19 --> 00:33:20 to those individuals, right?
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 As far as how they think politically and all that.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 So I appreciate the fact that you're willing to do this kind of work.
00:33:27 --> 00:33:33 If people want to get access to that Gen Z report or people want to get involved
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 with the Institute for Citizens and Scholars, people want to just get in touch
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 with you. How can they do that?
00:33:40 --> 00:33:43 Easiest way is actually just to go to our website. Not surprising.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:47 It's just, it's citizensandscholars.org.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 Citizensandscholars.org is, you know, by far the best way.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 And, you know, there's a sign up there where you can sign up to get information,
00:33:56 --> 00:33:58 to reach out, be part of our work.
00:33:59 --> 00:34:03 So there's a number of ways, and we are looking for people to engage with us in this work.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:07 It's going to take as many people as we can get to ensure that we're actually
00:34:07 --> 00:34:12 building the democracy we need. so I guess well one more question I needed to
00:34:12 --> 00:34:16 ask so what has been like the,
00:34:17 --> 00:34:23 Ratio with the HBCUs, what kind of engagement have you been getting with that?
00:34:23 --> 00:34:30 And what do you think needs to happen to get them more involved if they're not that involved now?
00:34:31 --> 00:34:36 They are involved, actually. So HBCU, Benedict College, and Howard were part
00:34:36 --> 00:34:40 literally of our founding presidents, right? Two of the 11 presidents have been part of that work.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 And so they continue. I would love to have more.
00:34:45 --> 00:34:50 Part of our work is actually raising some funding to be able to support institutions to do this work.
00:34:50 --> 00:34:54 You know, it's one thing for Ivy Leagues, elite liberal arts schools,
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57 large state universities who have access to more funding.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:01 They still have to get funding for it and so on. It's another thing for,
00:35:01 --> 00:35:06 frankly, minority-serving institutions and HBCUs who are in a much more cash-strapped situation.
00:35:06 --> 00:35:09 So I take it as my responsibility, and we have been raising funding,
00:35:09 --> 00:35:13 to be able to support those institutions that want to do this but may not have
00:35:13 --> 00:35:15 all the resources like some of our other partners.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:21 So I think that that's really the challenge because from an intention perspective,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:26 all these presidents understand, especially with the historical institutions,
00:35:27 --> 00:35:29 just how important it is to develop citizens.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:33 They have a public good responsibility, and they've had that since their charters.
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 So that's not the hard part of selling this.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:39 So I know you probably get most of your money through grants and stuff,
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 but people can go to the website and donate, right?
00:35:43 --> 00:35:47 That's right. They can as well. And if you want to learn more about our college
00:35:47 --> 00:35:52 president's work, the other website that we have is literally collegepresidents.org.
00:35:52 --> 00:35:55 And that's focused just on the college president's work, because at Citizens
00:35:55 --> 00:35:59 and Scholars, we We also do work to support young people directly who want to
00:35:59 --> 00:36:03 do, Erik, what you and I were talking about earlier, which is make change in their community.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:09 Right. So the reason why I'm stressing that is this is the holiday season now,
00:36:09 --> 00:36:11 and this is when people want to give.
00:36:11 --> 00:36:15 And if you need something to write off on your taxes, Citizens and Scholars
00:36:15 --> 00:36:21 might be a good donation for you. Thank you so much. Raj, thank you for coming on, brother.
00:36:21 --> 00:36:26 I greatly appreciate that. And again, I wish you and your family an enjoyable
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 and relaxing holiday season. Thank you. Same to you. It's been an honor.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:32 All right, guys, we'll catch you all on the other side.
00:36:54 --> 00:36:59 It's time for my next guest, Howard Yaruss. Howard Yaruss is an economist,
00:36:59 --> 00:37:04 professor, attorney, businessman, and activist who has taught a variety of courses
00:37:04 --> 00:37:08 on economics and business and currently teaches at New York University.
00:37:09 --> 00:37:13 Prior to teaching, he served as executive vice president and general counsel
00:37:13 --> 00:37:18 of Radian Group, one of the largest guarantors of debt in the world.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:23 Yaruss graduated from Brown University, studied at the London School of Economics,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:27 and earned a law degree from the University of Pennsylvania. He lives in Manhattan.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:33 He is the author of Understandable Economics, because understanding our economy
00:37:33 --> 00:37:36 is easier than you think and more important than you know.
00:37:36 --> 00:37:42 So we're going to pick his brain a little bit, since he wants us to understand
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 economics, and talk a little bit about this book.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:54 On this podcast, Howard Yaruss. Music.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:09 Sir you doing good great how are you I'm doing
00:38:09 --> 00:38:12 fine I want to wish you holiday greetings
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 as far as thanksgiving is concerned for you
00:38:15 --> 00:38:18 and your family thank you and i wish the same to
00:38:18 --> 00:38:23 you thank you sir and this is an interesting time of the year for somebody with
00:38:23 --> 00:38:28 your background because this has been an interesting few years for someone with
00:38:28 --> 00:38:33 my background well this is true but you know this time of year is you know folks
00:38:33 --> 00:38:37 are we're recording this before black Friday so So by the time this drops,
00:38:37 --> 00:38:40 people would have spent their money at this point.
00:38:40 --> 00:38:44 There'll still be other things like Cyber Monday, Giving Tuesday, all that.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:49 But, you know, this is when people start either making decisions about what
00:38:49 --> 00:38:53 they're going to buy for their family and friends or, you know,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:56 if they're going to donate money to charities and all that kind of stuff.
00:38:56 --> 00:39:01 So to have somebody on that has this background about economics,
00:39:01 --> 00:39:07 I always am fascinated by people that devote themselves to this kind of work.
00:39:07 --> 00:39:12 And I've had a number of economists on, but I didn't have one on to try to really.
00:39:12 --> 00:39:15 Well, I've had a professor on, but.
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 I didn't have anybody to write a book and say, okay, this is this and this is
00:39:20 --> 00:39:24 that and dedicate themselves to doing that.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:26 So it's really an honor to have you to come on.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:31 Well, it's an honor to be here. I think it's the whole point of the book is
00:39:31 --> 00:39:34 that economics is about values.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:38 You know, there's no formula out there that'll tell you what the right tax rate is.
00:39:38 --> 00:39:42 There's no formula out there that will tell you how much help we should give the hungry people.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:47 This is all about values. It's not like physics. where you plug a bunch of numbers
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 into a formula, boom, out comes an answer.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:57 And again, since it's all about values, people have to be informed because if
00:39:57 --> 00:40:01 they cede important policy decisions to the quote-unquote experts,
00:40:01 --> 00:40:03 or the economists, or the politicians,
00:40:04 --> 00:40:10 they may very well get policies if they find anything from bad to abhorrent.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:16 So my goal through this book is to get people to realize that they need to read
00:40:16 --> 00:40:21 up on this and then get involved because if they don't, people who they don't
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23 trust, who they may not like,
00:40:23 --> 00:40:26 who they may not have any respect for,
00:40:26 --> 00:40:29 may be making these decisions for them. That's the whole point of the book.
00:40:30 --> 00:40:35 All right. So normally what I try to do at the beginning is to do what we call
00:40:35 --> 00:40:36 these icebreaker exercises.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:41 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:48 It says, economics is an extraordinary belief that the nastiest of men for the
00:40:48 --> 00:40:53 nastiest of reasons will somehow work for the benefit of us all.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:54 What do you think about that quote?
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 Naïve. One word, naïve. I always tell students, I teach in NYU,
00:41:00 --> 00:41:02 to the extent you can answer something in one word, that's it.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:08 Sometimes you can't, which is understandable. But that's, this is a time I could
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 really, sum up my answer in one word, naïve. Yes, business is.
00:41:14 --> 00:41:16 When they try to make money, when they try to make a profit,
00:41:17 --> 00:41:19 they're incentivized to serve people.
00:41:19 --> 00:41:24 If I own a pizza shop, I'm going to try to make the best pizza possible so as
00:41:24 --> 00:41:26 to get the most customers.
00:41:26 --> 00:41:29 And I'm also going to try to charge a reasonable price.
00:41:29 --> 00:41:33 Because if I don't charge a reasonable price and I don't make a good slice of
00:41:33 --> 00:41:35 pizza, I'm not going to get a lot of customers.
00:41:36 --> 00:41:41 That is breaking down. When you're a big monopoly, and we have a lot of big
00:41:41 --> 00:41:44 monopolies now, you don't have to care as much about the customer.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 They can't really go anywhere else. If you want to do online shopping,
00:41:49 --> 00:41:51 you pretty much have to go to Amazon.
00:41:51 --> 00:41:55 If you want to go on a cab ride, you pretty much have to call Uber.
00:41:56 --> 00:42:01 The economy is much more concentrated now than it's out there.
00:42:01 --> 00:42:07 And so it sounds great in theory, and it works for small businesses most of
00:42:07 --> 00:42:10 the time, but it's less and less true.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:15 And I think that's a problem that we're really facing.
00:42:16 --> 00:42:20 Okay. All right. So now the next one is called 20 questions.
00:42:21 --> 00:42:25 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:30 12. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news?
00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 That's a very good question, and I'll tell you why I'm laughing.
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 Because I read the news these days, and it seems fake.
00:42:39 --> 00:42:45 And then I do a Google search, and I realize it's true. I read a few bloggers every morning.
00:42:46 --> 00:42:47 Paul Krugman, Hedda Cox Richardson.
00:42:48 --> 00:42:52 And some of the things they say just seem incredible. They seem hard to believe.
00:42:53 --> 00:42:59 But then I look them up, and they're true. So how do I separate what's true from fake?
00:42:59 --> 00:43:07 Like, I guess I'm looking back on what I actually do. I do some Google searches
00:43:07 --> 00:43:09 and see whether it's in fact true.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:14 And if I could find credible sources to back it up, I assume it's true.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:18 If I can't find credible sources to back it up, I assume it's not true.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:22 And so that's what I do. I don't take anything at face value because there's
00:43:22 --> 00:43:28 so much crazy stuff going on these days that I'm very skeptical.
00:43:28 --> 00:43:32 But what I do is I do a Google search, and if I see it mentioned in a couple
00:43:32 --> 00:43:36 of legitimate sources, I assume it's true.
00:43:36 --> 00:43:42 If I have a hard time finding some kind of support for it, I assume it's not true.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:48 Yeah. All right. It's a lot of work. Yeah. Yeah, it is. In this day and age,
00:43:48 --> 00:43:51 it's a lot of work because we get a lot of information.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 You start off your book with this quote from Einstein. If you can't explain
00:43:56 --> 00:43:59 it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:03 What was your motivating factor to take what you understand about economics
00:44:03 --> 00:44:05 to write a book for the masses?
00:44:06 --> 00:44:11 Well, it goes back to that quote you first gave me. There was a somewhat selfish motivation for it.
00:44:11 --> 00:44:16 I see a lot of horrible policies being implemented by our government.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:20 And I think the only way it's going to get better is if people,
00:44:21 --> 00:44:27 one, became more informed, and two, asserted themselves based on that information.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:33 I just think we've seeded a lot of important policy decisions that are not the
00:44:33 --> 00:44:38 kind of decisions that are made by a formula, the kind of decisions that are
00:44:38 --> 00:44:41 based on values, on judgments, on what you think is fair.
00:44:41 --> 00:44:48 And by recoiling at the thought of economics, when people hear about economics or tax, they back off.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:53 They think it's something with a lot of math, something that they can't understand,
00:44:54 --> 00:44:58 something that experts need to weigh in on. No, that's not true.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:01 They need to get involved in these
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04 issues or else, as I said at the very beginning of this conversation.
00:45:05 --> 00:45:09 People are going to make decisions that they may really not like.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:13 And the only way to protect yourself against that is to get involved.
00:45:13 --> 00:45:18 And I have this optimistic belief that the more people that got involved in
00:45:18 --> 00:45:22 these issues, the more people that are serving themselves, the better off involved.
00:45:23 --> 00:45:28 So why do you have that belief? Why do you believe that people truly want to understand economics?
00:45:29 --> 00:45:34 I don't think they truly want to understand economics. I'm saying selfishly,
00:45:34 --> 00:45:37 I want them to understand economics.
00:45:37 --> 00:45:39 For instance, this is a very simple thing.
00:45:39 --> 00:45:44 The tax code has special lower rates for investment income.
00:45:44 --> 00:45:48 Who earns investment income? Primarily wealthy people. In other words,
00:45:48 --> 00:45:54 I'll say it this way, wage income is almost always taxed at a higher rate than investment income.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 Fact. Wages are primarily earned by average people. Investment income is primarily
00:46:00 --> 00:46:02 earned by wealthy people.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:06 Warren Buffett, one of the five richest men in the country, has said he pays
00:46:06 --> 00:46:08 a lower tax rate than his secretary.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:14 Why? Because he earns his income through investments, and she earns it through wages.
00:46:17 --> 00:46:22 Now, I honestly believe if more people were involved in that issue,
00:46:22 --> 00:46:26 we wouldn't have that situation. I think most Americans would feel that's not fair.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:32 So why do we have it? Because most Americans have ceded the decisions on tax
00:46:32 --> 00:46:38 rates to people who primarily either earn more from investment income than wage
00:46:38 --> 00:46:40 income, and more importantly,
00:46:40 --> 00:46:44 who rely on campaign donors.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:48 Who earn more through investment income than wage income.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:55 And so there's that bubble of people who are lucky enough to live off investment
00:46:55 --> 00:47:00 income who are disproportionately represented in making these decisions.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:02 And I think the only way to...
00:47:04 --> 00:47:09 What I have to believe is most people's values is to have a level playing field,
00:47:09 --> 00:47:10 at least a level playing field.
00:47:10 --> 00:47:14 I think you can make a legitimate argument that investment income should be
00:47:14 --> 00:47:16 taxed at a higher rate than wage income.
00:47:16 --> 00:47:21 But the only way you're going to get some steps in what I think is the more
00:47:21 --> 00:47:27 equitable and fair direction is by getting more people involved in these decisions
00:47:27 --> 00:47:31 and not leaving them to the politicians and their gain donors.
00:47:31 --> 00:47:34 Yeah. All right. Let me read a passage from your book.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:39 This may be your first attempt to understand what drives our economy,
00:47:39 --> 00:47:42 since most Americans never take a course in economics.
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 Those of you who have taken a course in economics.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:54 Well, let me start over. Those of you who have taken an economics course were
00:47:54 --> 00:47:58 probably confronted with a bewildering way of jargon, formulas,
00:47:58 --> 00:48:02 graphs, and assumptions that seem to have little connection to reality,
00:48:02 --> 00:48:07 leaving you with a limited understanding at best of these issues. That would be me.
00:48:08 --> 00:48:12 Most books on the subject take the same dry technical approach,
00:48:12 --> 00:48:16 quickly sapping the interests of all but the most determined readers.
00:48:16 --> 00:48:21 I know this because I was one of the determined ones who studied economics and
00:48:21 --> 00:48:27 slogged through many courses and countless books on the subject. Why was I so determined?
00:48:28 --> 00:48:32 I grew up in Brooklyn in a family that often faced financial difficulties.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:37 I started working in my early teens and spent a good part of my time as a young
00:48:37 --> 00:48:39 adult helping my father in his grocery store.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:43 I became painfully aware of the great disparities in education,
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 security, material well-being, and opportunity.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:51 I saw how those inequalities caused some people to become cynical,
00:48:51 --> 00:48:56 resigned, or indifferent, while others became determined to overcome them.
00:48:56 --> 00:49:01 I became fascinated by them, and I felt that if I wanted to live in a more just
00:49:01 --> 00:49:05 and productive society, I first had to understand how it worked.
00:49:05 --> 00:49:10 I believe the same is true for you. So my question out of that is.
00:49:11 --> 00:49:15 Why did your awareness of disparities impact you so profoundly?
00:49:16 --> 00:49:19 That's a good question. And I've thought about that a lot.
00:49:19 --> 00:49:24 I've done a lot of interviews in connection with this book. And as you pointed
00:49:24 --> 00:49:28 out from the introduction, I worked in my father's grocery store,
00:49:28 --> 00:49:32 which was remarkably unprofitable.
00:49:32 --> 00:49:36 He had people working in the grocery store more than he did.
00:49:36 --> 00:49:41 But the point I want to make about the grocery store is he had a sort of soft heart.
00:49:42 --> 00:49:46 He hired people to work as stock, quote-unquote, boys who were in their 70s,
00:49:46 --> 00:49:52 who were having a hard time making ends meet because they weren't able to save
00:49:52 --> 00:49:55 up enough money during their lifetime.
00:49:55 --> 00:50:02 He had people who had criminal backgrounds. He had people who were dropping out of high school.
00:50:02 --> 00:50:06 And I saw all these people sort of heading to a dead end.
00:50:06 --> 00:50:11 And then I went off to Brown University, which was an Ivy League school where
00:50:11 --> 00:50:13 people had so much privilege.
00:50:14 --> 00:50:16 So I went from one extreme to the other.
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20 And there were bright people who worked in my father's store,
00:50:20 --> 00:50:22 and obviously people at Brown.
00:50:22 --> 00:50:26 But the disparities really stuck with me.
00:50:26 --> 00:50:34 It really made an impression on me. And so I just wanted to understand it better
00:50:34 --> 00:50:37 because, as I said in the book, as you read it,
00:50:37 --> 00:50:41 the only way you could really improve a system, if you want to provide more
00:50:41 --> 00:50:43 opportunity to people, if you
00:50:43 --> 00:50:48 want more equality, you have to really understand how this all came about.
00:50:48 --> 00:50:52 And so it's something that has fascinated me to this day.
00:50:53 --> 00:50:57 And again, it motivated the book, because I think if more people were involved
00:50:57 --> 00:51:02 in these issues, we'd probably get a more equitable, more fair outcome than we currently have.
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 So let me dig into that a little more.
00:51:06 --> 00:51:10 Because you said some people look at those and become cynical.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:15 And I've known some people who have grown up, you know, either,
00:51:15 --> 00:51:21 you know, working class or poor, and they get an opportunity to go to an Ivy
00:51:21 --> 00:51:23 League or a top university and all that stuff.
00:51:24 --> 00:51:28 And they kind of, you know, now that they've, quote unquote,
00:51:28 --> 00:51:31 made it, as the Jefferson say, we done moved on up. Right.
00:51:32 --> 00:51:38 They don't have that sensitivity. They deal with their family members.
00:51:38 --> 00:51:44 They'll deal with friends, but they don't have that. They don't have that compassion.
00:51:45 --> 00:51:51 Why do you think that your experience gave you compassion instead of being cynical?
00:51:52 --> 00:51:57 That's an extremely good question, for which I unfortunately do not have a good answer.
00:51:57 --> 00:52:04 I was always fascinated during the Nazi regime in Germany, how people from identical
00:52:04 --> 00:52:09 backgrounds, some of them collaborated with the Nazis in killing innocent people,
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 and others, identical backgrounds,
00:52:12 --> 00:52:15 literally risked their lives to save people.
00:52:15 --> 00:52:20 It's the same thing in the Antebellum South. who some people from identical backgrounds
00:52:20 --> 00:52:25 who were tyrannical slaveholders and other people, they may not have rebelled
00:52:25 --> 00:52:27 against the system, but they left.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:31 They went to the North and said, I can't, this is not a life for me. What causes that?
00:52:32 --> 00:52:37 I don't know. I study economics, not psychology. I wish I had more insight into that.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:41 But it is fascinating.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:45 And to the extent your listeners think about it, maybe they'll have some insight.
00:52:45 --> 00:52:49 But one of the beliefs of the book is if you give some basic knowledge,
00:52:49 --> 00:52:54 some basic facts, most people have good common sense and they can get some insight
00:52:54 --> 00:52:55 by just thinking about things.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:00 And I urge your viewers to think about that because I'm sure your listeners
00:53:00 --> 00:53:03 have encountered that in life.
00:53:03 --> 00:53:07 People from identical backgrounds and some people rise to the occasion and some
00:53:07 --> 00:53:11 people just consistently disappoint.
00:53:11 --> 00:53:17 And why that happens, I don't know. But it is a fascinating phenomenon.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:22 Well, Howard, I'm not a psychologist either, but, you know, as far as you go,
00:53:22 --> 00:53:29 I think the main reason why you chose that route is because you've got a good heart and you have...
00:53:30 --> 00:53:35 You've embraced your humanity, and that's something that a lot of us don't do,
00:53:35 --> 00:53:38 whether it's in politics, economics, law, whatever.
00:53:38 --> 00:53:45 And so I would say in your case, you embraced your humanity because not only
00:53:45 --> 00:53:52 did you decide, well, I'm going to do something about it, you've actually taken some steps.
00:53:52 --> 00:53:54 And one of these things is this book that you've written.
00:53:54 --> 00:53:58 So I'm grateful that you chose not to be cynical.
00:54:00 --> 00:54:05 Well, thank you. Thank you. All right. And you as well for having me on the show. Yes, sir.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:10 So let's talk about some things that are in the news that you kind of break
00:54:10 --> 00:54:17 down in the book, but just kind of pick your brain about some issues that are out there that,
00:54:18 --> 00:54:21 You know, they hear about it and they're not quite sure.
00:54:21 --> 00:54:26 One of the things that befuddles me, and I'll tell you a quick story.
00:54:26 --> 00:54:34 So a college classmate of mine sent me a message and it was some kind of thing
00:54:34 --> 00:54:40 where she was trying to get me to invest in crypto and all that and put in some money and it came out.
00:54:40 --> 00:54:48 And then, you know, so I have, you know, I basically told her this sounds like a scam to me. So I'm out.
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 But for some reason, I have crypto.
00:54:51 --> 00:54:56 I have some crypto on me, but I don't use it. It's just sitting there.
00:54:56 --> 00:55:04 So just kind of, you know, explain why is crypto different than the dollar?
00:55:04 --> 00:55:13 And I mean, what is it and why do people feel that this is better than a dollar?
00:55:13 --> 00:55:18 I mean, you know, is it backed by assets? I mean, I've just...
00:55:18 --> 00:55:20 All I know is there's just some kind of algorithm.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:27 Well, you pretty much know everything. I make this analogy in the book that
00:55:27 --> 00:55:30 to understand crypto is...
00:55:31 --> 00:55:35 It's like trying to understand how the printer gets the ink on a $20 bill.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:39 You don't need to know about the algorithm.
00:55:39 --> 00:55:44 You don't need to know about the technology. What you need to know, it's like virtual gold.
00:55:45 --> 00:55:51 It's something that only exists in cyberspace, and it's supposedly limited.
00:55:51 --> 00:55:55 Bitcoin is supposedly limited. I think it's to 22 million Bitcoins.
00:55:56 --> 00:55:59 Now, let me just add for a moment. if suddenly
00:55:59 --> 00:56:02 tomorrow another 22 million bitcoins appeared
00:56:02 --> 00:56:06 on the scene what are you going to do there's no 1-800 number
00:56:06 --> 00:56:11 there's no customer service to call up to complain even when there is you know
00:56:11 --> 00:56:16 when you're when your bank has a 1-800 number and a custom a customer service
00:56:16 --> 00:56:19 number you know it's not it's kind of frustrating when you call them the thing
00:56:19 --> 00:56:24 how frustrating it would be if there's no 1-800 number,
00:56:24 --> 00:56:29 no customer service and actually no actual business to call.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:32 So what it is, it's just made up out of thin air.
00:56:33 --> 00:56:39 But in a way it is, one way it is like the dollar. The dollar is also made up out of thin air.
00:56:39 --> 00:56:41 In the 19th, for most of history.
00:56:43 --> 00:56:47 U.S. currency and most currencies were backed by precious metals.
00:56:47 --> 00:56:52 That's not true since—that's in my lifetime, since the early 1970s.
00:56:52 --> 00:56:57 So it's just like the dollar, it's something made up out of thin air.
00:56:57 --> 00:57:01 And why does it have value? Because people are willing to give it back.
00:57:01 --> 00:57:05 I do have one prediction, and I don't—I typically don't make predictions.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:10 But maybe I'll back off from calling this prediction. I'll just say that most
00:57:10 --> 00:57:14 assets approach their real value in the long run.
00:57:14 --> 00:57:19 That assets that are undervalued, you've seen this in real estate.
00:57:19 --> 00:57:24 They don't stay undervalued for that long. Assets that are overvalued don't stay overvalued.
00:57:24 --> 00:57:28 And what's the true value of Bitcoin? Well, it's useful if you want to have
00:57:28 --> 00:57:34 someone kidnapped or you want to extort money from someone. But it doesn't really have much use.
00:57:35 --> 00:57:38 As I pointed out in a book, there was a Bitcoin conference in New York.
00:57:38 --> 00:57:43 It only took dollars for the registration fee. It wouldn't take Bitcoin.
00:57:44 --> 00:57:50 So I think in the long run, especially if the Congress and the White House changes
00:57:50 --> 00:57:54 and they start to regulate it, it's going to approach its real value.
00:57:54 --> 00:57:59 You and I can speculate as to what that is, but it's nowhere near what it's trending at now.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:01 Yeah, the only, real quick, the only...
00:58:02 --> 00:58:07 Thing I equated to, and I don't know if you're, well, you should remember because,
00:58:07 --> 00:58:10 you know, it was, you know, I liked that Fingerhut, right?
00:58:10 --> 00:58:16 So it was like Fingerhut, it's like you have credit with them,
00:58:16 --> 00:58:17 but it doesn't apply anywhere else.
00:58:18 --> 00:58:23 You can't use Fingerhut credit at Macy's. You can't use Fingerhut credit at Saks Fifth Avenue.
00:58:23 --> 00:58:27 But, you know, on Fingerhut, you can buy anything you want. And that's kind
00:58:27 --> 00:58:31 of the mindset I have with crypto. Is that kind of too basic or?
00:58:32 --> 00:58:37 I think it's really not even that much, simply because what can you buy with crypto?
00:58:38 --> 00:58:45 There's really, again, if you want a ransom or some kind of scam, it's useful.
00:58:45 --> 00:58:49 But literally, Fingerhut, I'm not familiar with it, presumably had some legitimate
00:58:49 --> 00:58:51 goods you could buy with the credit.
00:58:51 --> 00:58:55 I can't think of any legitimate goods you can buy with the credit.
00:58:55 --> 00:58:59 Furthermore, what advantage does it have over the US dollar?
00:58:59 --> 00:59:04 You know it's electronic but so is most dollars if you think about it uh when
00:59:04 --> 00:59:09 you pay your credit card you put a giant pile of cash in the envelope and nail
00:59:09 --> 00:59:17 it to the credit card it's all so that i i really think it's it's something that is is.
00:59:18 --> 00:59:22 There's likely to be some kind of trash coming at some point.
00:59:22 --> 00:59:25 It's a question of when and not if, I think.
00:59:26 --> 00:59:31 Yeah. All right. So let's get to our president's favorite word,
00:59:31 --> 00:59:33 which is tariffs, right?
00:59:33 --> 00:59:39 So a myth that you wanted to address was that foreigners pay tariffs.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 Is it true that foreigners pay tariffs?
00:59:42 --> 00:59:46 Well, first of all, let's define tariffs. I think, again, this is if people
00:59:46 --> 00:59:50 have some very basic knowledge, they could figure this stuff out on their own.
00:59:50 --> 00:59:51 What are tariffs? Three words.
00:59:52 --> 00:59:55 For one, there's three. Tax on imports.
00:59:55 --> 01:00:01 There's sales tax on imports. And I think it's a real irony that the president,
01:00:01 --> 01:00:06 the president of the White House, who claims to love low tariffs, says low taxes.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:11 His favorite word is a tax. A tariff is a tax on imports.
01:00:12 --> 01:00:17 Who pays them? Well, there's barely an the IRS in the United States,
01:00:17 --> 01:00:21 given the cuts they've made to the IRS, but I can tell you with absolute certainty,
01:00:21 --> 01:00:25 there's no IRS or taxing authority for the United States abroad.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:31 So the foreigners are not paying it.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:35 But there are some people who claim, well, they're just reducing their prices.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:41 Well, that's not true. You can see what the prices foreigners are charging for
01:00:41 --> 01:00:44 their goods because they have to declare them at the border.
01:00:44 --> 01:00:49 That's the price upon which they put the tax. That's the price upon which they put the tariff.
01:00:50 --> 01:00:53 Have the prices gone down by the amount of the tax?
01:00:53 --> 01:00:58 No. There's data on this. They've gone up by 1% since the taxes were on post.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:02 So the foreigners are not paying the tariffs. In theory, they're not paying them.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:07 And as a practical matter, there's evidence they're not paying them. So who's paying them?
01:01:07 --> 01:01:12 Basically, people have analyzed this. Clark's going to consumers.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:17 In part, large companies are just eating part of it. They're accepting a slightly smaller profit.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:22 How much longer they're willing to cut into their profits is question.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:25 Because they were hoping, you know, the tariffs change every other hour.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 They were hoping that these would just be temporary.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:34 As the tariffs seem more permanent, they're probably going to just pass through
01:01:34 --> 01:01:35 the whole tariff to the consumer.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:40 Bottom line, the end of the story, it's consumers are paying the tariffs.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:42 But I just want to add one more thing.
01:01:43 --> 01:01:47 People say, well, foreign goods became more expensive. It's much worse than
01:01:47 --> 01:01:49 that. I'll tell you what.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:57 If you're indifferent, if you like French wine, let's say, and it costs $20
01:01:57 --> 01:02:01 a bottle, and it's a California wine, which costs $20 a bottle,
01:02:01 --> 01:02:02 you're going to buy the French wine.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:07 But then they stick the tariff on the French wine, 30%. So it goes to $26.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:11 It's too much money. I'll buy the California wine for $20.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:19 Put yourself in the shoes of the California vintner, the California winery owner.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:22 He's going to say, my competition's price just went from $20 to $26.
01:02:23 --> 01:02:28 I can bump up my price to $24 and still increase my customer base.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:34 So that's the point I'm trying to make. When all the goods that our domestic
01:02:34 --> 01:02:38 manufacturers compete with go up, they can raise their prices,
01:02:38 --> 01:02:43 maybe not as much as the full cost of the tariff, but they have leeway.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:47 They have room to raise their prices and still be competitive.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 So bottom, bottom line, tariffs raise prices for everyone.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:58 And so it's it's it's really troubling to me that someone who claims to be against
01:02:58 --> 01:03:03 taxation just imposed this massive tax on American consumers. All right.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:10 Here's a myth. The national debt is an existential threat to our nation.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:16 Well, a lot of politicians try to scare people that the 30-some-odd trillion-dollar
01:03:16 --> 01:03:22 debt, and that's a big, scary number, that it's going to sink us economically.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:27 $30 trillion is a number that, with all due respect to you and your listeners,
01:03:27 --> 01:03:30 I don't think they can get their head around. I can't get my head around.
01:03:31 --> 01:03:36 I remember there was a congressman I was listening to, and he mentioned something
01:03:36 --> 01:03:42 about costing X billion dollars. And someone asked, do you mean X million or X billion?
01:03:43 --> 01:03:47 And the congressman didn't know. That's like saying I had a great sandwich for lunch.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:51 I don't remember if it was $10 or $10, but it was really good.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:56 The point is that people can't get their heads around these massive numbers.
01:03:56 --> 01:04:02 So what I do in the book is I divide it by the number of Americans.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:08 And we get a debt of about $89 per American. Now, that's a number we could
01:04:08 --> 01:04:09 all get our heads around.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:16 Is that an existential threat? Well, everyone who went to medical school has a debt like that.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:18 Virtually anyone who bought a house has a debt like that.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:21 Virtually anyone who started a business has a debt like that.
01:04:22 --> 01:04:27 So, again, you shouldn't look to quote-unquote experts for answers.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:33 You should try to get some basic knowledge, like the debt is $89 per person,
01:04:33 --> 01:04:35 and then think about it for yourself.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:42 If you use that debt if someone used $89 of debt to postpone all their expenses,
01:04:42 --> 01:04:46 to go on some extraordinary vacation or to feed an addiction yeah,
01:04:46 --> 01:04:50 it's a terrible idea but if they use it to go to medical school to start a business
01:04:50 --> 01:04:55 or to invest in their child's education, it's a great idea so it really comes down to.
01:04:56 --> 01:05:01 Seeing that it's not a crazy number, trillion dollars, no one can get their head around.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:06 $89 is a number we can all get our heads around. And then deciding,
01:05:06 --> 01:05:08 is Congress using the money wisely?
01:05:08 --> 01:05:12 And if they're using it wisely, it's fine. It's a rich question.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:19 It's probably not a good idea. So that's something people have to think through for themselves.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:26 Yeah. All right. Last one we're going to do is Social Security will run out of money.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:31 Okay. Do you ever worry about the State Department running out of money?
01:05:31 --> 01:05:35 Do you ever worry about the Pentagon running out of money? There are government programs.
01:05:35 --> 01:05:40 If the Congress allocates money, they don't run out of money.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:43 If Congress doesn't allocate money, they do run out of money.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:45 It's like anything else. It's a scare tactic.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:51 It's like a $30-some-odd trillion debt, which really does sound scary.
01:05:51 --> 01:05:56 When you think of it on a per-person basis, it's a number you can get your head around.
01:05:57 --> 01:06:00 Same thing with Social Security. It's a government program.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:06 It's a very expensive government program, but it's a question of politics and not economics.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:13 And it's often by asking, by politicians asking, is Social Security going bankrupt?
01:06:13 --> 01:06:14 They're just trying to scare people.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:18 Again, it would be like asking, is the Pentagon going bankrupt?
01:06:18 --> 01:06:22 Then is every foreign country going to be able to invade America because we
01:06:22 --> 01:06:23 no longer have a national defense?
01:06:23 --> 01:06:28 It's a question of priorities and not the ability.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:35 It's a question of will, of our desire to do something, and are we able to do something?
01:06:35 --> 01:06:39 So that's what I would say about Social Security. Right, so...
01:06:39 --> 01:06:44 If people want to get a hold of this book, which is called Understandable Economics,
01:06:44 --> 01:06:48 because understanding our economy is easier than you think and more important
01:06:48 --> 01:06:50 than you know, how can they get to the book?
01:06:50 --> 01:06:53 And if people want to reach out to you, how can they get to you?
01:06:54 --> 01:07:03 Great question. I have a website. It's howardyaruss.com, H-O-W-A-R-D-Y-A-R-U-S-S.com.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:05 Certainly, it's on Amazon.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:09 It's in most local bookstores, including Barnes & Noble's.
01:07:09 --> 01:07:12 If your local bookstore doesn't have it, they can easily get it.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:15 I encourage you to buy it from your local bookstore.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:17 Help those people stay in business.
01:07:18 --> 01:07:21 But again, if you want it easily overnight, it's definitely on Amazon.
01:07:22 --> 01:07:26 All right. Well, Howard Yaruss, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do this.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:29 We could only really scratch the surface in the time that we had.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:35 But I think people get the gist of what your book is about.
01:07:35 --> 01:07:43 And hopefully it'll be required reading for a lot of folks just to navigate
01:07:43 --> 01:07:45 through what we're dealing with.
01:07:45 --> 01:07:48 And so I greatly appreciate you making an effort to write the book.
01:07:48 --> 01:07:50 And I appreciate you coming on the podcast.
01:07:51 --> 01:07:55 Thank you for having me. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:16 I want to thank Raj Vinnakota and Howard Yaruss for coming on the podcast.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:24 And it was very apparent that both of those gentlemen are excited about what they do.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:31 And there's a certain level of joy and satisfaction in what they're doing.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:37 And Howard trying to teach us about economics and just how to be better citizens.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:42 So Howard's approach is kind of like my approach with politics in that,
01:08:43 --> 01:08:47 you know, we're not trying to make you economics junkies no more than I'm trying
01:08:47 --> 01:08:48 to make you a political junkie.
01:08:50 --> 01:08:56 But if you understand basic concepts, then it'll help you make better decisions
01:08:56 --> 01:09:02 in your home and in politics, right?
01:09:03 --> 01:09:09 And then Raj, it's apparent the enthusiasm and joy that he shows in doing his
01:09:09 --> 01:09:12 work and his belief that we can do better,
01:09:13 --> 01:09:19 especially those folks who are involved in higher education and making sure
01:09:19 --> 01:09:27 that when students do want to have a voice, that they're given the opportunity to do it.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:31 And there's a better environment for that to happen.
01:09:32 --> 01:09:39 And that is a holistic plan. It's not just whenever an issue comes up, right?
01:09:40 --> 01:09:46 And, you know, I just greatly appreciate them for doing what they're doing.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:51 And of course, I'm humbled that they both came on the podcast.
01:09:51 --> 01:09:59 My heart's a little heavy because of what happened with the ambush of the two
01:09:59 --> 01:10:03 National Guard members in Washington, D.C.,
01:10:04 --> 01:10:09 something that you don't really anticipate nor that you wish would happen.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:20 My heart and my condolences go out to the families of those soldiers who were ambushed.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:23 One has passed away, the young lady.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:29 The young man is still fighting. And both of them were from West Virginia,
01:10:29 --> 01:10:35 which I have a family connection to and the fact that that's where my mom went to college.
01:10:36 --> 01:10:42 And to actually go to West Virginia and see the state personally and know how,
01:10:42 --> 01:10:48 even though I probably don't agree with 80% of the citizens as far as the way
01:10:48 --> 01:10:54 they vote, I do empathize with them as human beings and know how tight-knit a community it is.
01:10:57 --> 01:11:03 So in West Virginia, that means a lot when you lose somebody or somebody you
01:11:03 --> 01:11:05 care about is critically injured.
01:11:06 --> 01:11:11 And, you know, and through the history of coal mining and other things that
01:11:11 --> 01:11:16 have gone on there, it's you understand that it's hitting home pretty well,
01:11:16 --> 01:11:19 especially as the holidays have started.
01:11:19 --> 01:11:21 So I wish I wish those families well.
01:11:22 --> 01:11:31 And fortunately, you know, the shooter was caught alive and that person will
01:11:31 --> 01:11:33 go through the justice process.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:41 But something that angers me and bothers me more than the actual shooting is the reaction.
01:11:43 --> 01:11:48 And, you know, there's always pros and cons and stuff.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:54 And, you know, you can find redeeming qualities in people.
01:11:54 --> 01:12:05 But I don't have a stomach for the way that this administration operates.
01:12:05 --> 01:12:14 Never had much of one, but I just don't have any confidence at all in their
01:12:14 --> 01:12:17 competency or their ability to govern.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:25 Now, why do I say that? So the immediate reaction after the shooting was,
01:12:25 --> 01:12:28 we're going to put more troops on the ground.
01:12:29 --> 01:12:36 You know, I'm like, what are 500 more soldiers on the ground going to do,
01:12:37 --> 01:12:41 considering that the person who committed the crime has already been arrested?
01:12:42 --> 01:12:47 And it's been pretty apparent in the preliminary investigation that this person
01:12:47 --> 01:12:56 acted alone. Now, there was sound intelligence that this was the first wave of an attack, and.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:02 You know, and some other incidents that happened, this led to some unrest in
01:13:02 --> 01:13:09 the city, then I can understand making that kind of a decision. But,
01:13:10 --> 01:13:15 You know, otherwise, this is, you know, the old saying, like you're trying to
01:13:15 --> 01:13:17 kill a fly with a sledgehammer.
01:13:18 --> 01:13:21 And you've already captured the fly. Right.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:29 So that overreaction shows to me that these people are not competent and don't
01:13:29 --> 01:13:30 have a true ability to govern.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:38 And then the president went further to basically say that anybody that's part
01:13:38 --> 01:13:47 of the or would be eligible for the Afghanistan TPS program was just shutting it down.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:51 As a matter of fact, he went as far to say that he really doesn't want anybody
01:13:51 --> 01:13:56 from a quote-unquote third world country to immigrate to the United States anymore,
01:13:57 --> 01:14:02 which goes back to his first administration where he said he didn't want anybody
01:14:02 --> 01:14:03 from shithole countries.
01:14:03 --> 01:14:08 The same mindset, just change the language, right?
01:14:09 --> 01:14:12 And again, for what?
01:14:13 --> 01:14:22 So we're going to punish people who helped our soldiers in a war we shouldn't have been in.
01:14:23 --> 01:14:28 We're going to punish those people that are eligible to come over and get away
01:14:28 --> 01:14:30 from the Taliban. Right.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:37 You criticize President Biden for the withdrawal that you set up, by the way, Mr.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:38 President, you set that up in
01:14:38 --> 01:14:41 your first administration and then Biden was the one left to carry it out.
01:14:42 --> 01:14:47 And whether you think or anybody else thinks that it was carried out smoothly or not.
01:14:48 --> 01:14:52 He basically was following through on something that you had initiated because
01:14:52 --> 01:14:57 you were the one that had the folks at Camp David, the Taliban at Camp David.
01:14:58 --> 01:15:02 You were the one who met with these people and agreed to the timeline.
01:15:04 --> 01:15:06 And Biden did the best he could to honor it.
01:15:08 --> 01:15:13 And in the process, there were some people that should have been evacuated that were not.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:19 And so those people are still there, are still seeking it because one person
01:15:19 --> 01:15:22 commits a criminal act. We're going to punish everybody.
01:15:23 --> 01:15:25 That's what we call an overreaction.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:31 And people that overreact tend to be not competent when it comes to leadership.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:38 Because you don't want that in leadership. You don't want people that overreact. Right?
01:15:39 --> 01:15:45 And if we held that standard, then when black people get in charge,
01:15:45 --> 01:15:49 then every white person should go to jail for 400 years of oppression.
01:15:50 --> 01:15:52 But we don't operate like that.
01:15:52 --> 01:16:00 So, you know, we understand that individuals should be responsible for their
01:16:00 --> 01:16:04 acts and not punish an entire group of people.
01:16:04 --> 01:16:07 Right. Nonetheless.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:16 Just another example of where we are and why we have to do better in choosing
01:16:16 --> 01:16:25 people and why we have to do better in having people put into positions, right?
01:16:25 --> 01:16:33 We've got to do better in knowing not only who to select, but if we're chosen, what to do.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:38 You know, playing on people's fears is low-hanging fruit.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:46 Elevating people's hopes takes work. And it's pretty apparent that the current
01:16:46 --> 01:16:52 administration doesn't give a damn about hope at all, doesn't have a vision.
01:16:52 --> 01:16:56 They just want to scare people into keeping them in power.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:04 And that's not, despite all its faults, that's not what this country is about, right?
01:17:05 --> 01:17:10 It has always been based on the hope of liberty and freedom.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:17 Just watch the documentary on the American Revolution, and when you saw the
01:17:17 --> 01:17:24 Native Americans and the enslaved Africans picking sides,
01:17:25 --> 01:17:27 whether they were going to support the colonists or whether they were going
01:17:27 --> 01:17:34 to support the British in the war, it's based on that concept of liberty and freedom, right?
01:17:35 --> 01:17:39 The white colonists were making decisions themselves.
01:17:40 --> 01:17:46 Did they think that their lifestyle was better being under British rule or would
01:17:46 --> 01:17:48 it be better being independent?
01:17:48 --> 01:17:53 Which one gave them the most freedom and liberty to live the life they wanted to live.
01:17:54 --> 01:18:05 So the whole concept of this nation has been about liberty and freedom and hope, not about fear, right?
01:18:06 --> 01:18:09 What are your eyes telling you? What is your gut telling you?
01:18:10 --> 01:18:13 Not fear-mongering or overreacting.
01:18:14 --> 01:18:25 So I hate that this tragedy has led to more proof of how inept our leaders are,
01:18:26 --> 01:18:27 our current leadership.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:34 But as always, we have to take this as a moment where we can learn and take
01:18:34 --> 01:18:41 this as a moment of reflection and to make a commitment that we have to do better.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:46 Because nobody is talking about the motive of this shooter.
01:18:46 --> 01:18:54 He may have thought that because they wanted to shut the program down anyway
01:18:54 --> 01:19:01 that his relatives or somebody couldn't come over and decided to exact revenge.
01:19:02 --> 01:19:08 And fortunately, he ran into those two young people from West Virginia, right?
01:19:08 --> 01:19:12 And even more unfortunate, nobody was able to stop him before he carried it out.
01:19:13 --> 01:19:17 We don't know. The investigation is still going into that.
01:19:18 --> 01:19:23 And whether it was a right decision or a wrong decision, it was a decision.
01:19:23 --> 01:19:25 Talking about the policy.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:34 And any decision we make has consequences. But when you exist in a world where
01:19:34 --> 01:19:41 shame is not an option, then you don't weigh consequences.
01:19:41 --> 01:19:50 You don't weigh impact of your decisions. You just do stuff on impulse. You overreact.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:57 Admitting mistakes is not defeat or it doesn't make you less than a human being.
01:19:58 --> 01:20:05 Contemplating decisions doesn't make you weak makes you human makes you enlightened
01:20:05 --> 01:20:08 shows that you have compassion,
01:20:09 --> 01:20:15 administration doesn't have that, had a situation where the press secretary,
01:20:15 --> 01:20:19 one of her relatives, just got arrested by ICE.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:23 Her reaction? Oh, well.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:30 I remember we had passed this law dealing with the rise of meth.
01:20:30 --> 01:20:35 And, you know, we were increasing sentences and limiting what drugs people could
01:20:35 --> 01:20:37 buy over-the-counter and all this stuff.
01:20:38 --> 01:20:45 And so one of the members, later on, one of the member's grandchildren got caught up in that.
01:20:47 --> 01:20:53 And one-on-one, he reached out to me to see if I could, because he knew I had
01:20:53 --> 01:20:56 connections with law enforcement, and he wanted to see if there was anything
01:20:56 --> 01:20:58 I could do to help his grandson.
01:20:59 --> 01:21:06 And that it wasn't much I could do, but that was a natural reaction for somebody
01:21:06 --> 01:21:10 that voted for the bill and then turned around and realized,
01:21:10 --> 01:21:12 uh-oh, one of my folks got caught up in it.
01:21:13 --> 01:21:16 Is there any way I could help him? Right?
01:21:17 --> 01:21:23 And that shows compassion. Now, some people say, well, it's selfish,
01:21:23 --> 01:21:25 especially since he voted for legislation.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:27 Okay, you can judge him on that.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:33 But at that moment, I was looking at a grandfather who was concerned about his grandchild.
01:21:35 --> 01:21:43 I did what I could. But the press secretary for the White House, she's not doing it.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:49 As interconnected as they are, that relative could have been out on the street
01:21:49 --> 01:21:55 the next day if they gave a damn about other people, if they had compassion.
01:21:56 --> 01:22:01 They didn't make any effort. And I don't know if it was an image problem or
01:22:01 --> 01:22:03 whatever, but it was kind of like,
01:22:04 --> 01:22:09 If you knew about it and you're the press secretary, probably know how to do
01:22:09 --> 01:22:12 stuff to keep it away from the press, at least for a moment,
01:22:13 --> 01:22:16 at least long enough for that person to get situated.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:21 But if you don't give a damn, it is what it is.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:27 I'm not encouraging that kind of behavior. I'm just saying that these people
01:22:27 --> 01:22:33 have no compassion, it, not even to their own family, if it goes against the
01:22:33 --> 01:22:35 propaganda that they're pushing.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:43 Which brings me to Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I initially thought was going to serve out her term.
01:22:43 --> 01:22:47 And then I found out, no, no, she's leaving this January. So she's done.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 Now, I don't know what her future in politics is going to be.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:58 I think she's going to team up with Steve Bannon and just do the media thing.
01:22:59 --> 01:23:02 I don't know. You know, some people are thinking she might want to be president.
01:23:03 --> 01:23:06 The way she sounded was she was done with it because she felt betrayed.
01:23:07 --> 01:23:13 She said loyalty to the president is a one-way street. That's somebody that was hurt.
01:23:14 --> 01:23:19 Somebody that stuck their neck out politically to side with them.
01:23:19 --> 01:23:24 A true believer who now has been disillusioned, right?
01:23:26 --> 01:23:34 And, again, if they had compassion, they would have tried to figure out a way to keep her in the fold.
01:23:36 --> 01:23:43 It's like, well, if you go against me on one vote, one, then you're no good to me.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:47 You know, people have their points.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:55 You know, talk about it. There was one legislator in Mississippi that was a MAGA Republican.
01:23:55 --> 01:24:01 But any time they said you wanted to do something dealing with children,
01:24:01 --> 01:24:05 she would be the first one to say, what can I do to help? Right?
01:24:06 --> 01:24:12 Even if it went against what her party wanted, even if she was the only Republican
01:24:12 --> 01:24:16 to vote for legislation pertaining to that issue. She didn't care.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:22 That was an issue that meant something to her, and they just had to understand that.
01:24:22 --> 01:24:25 And to the Republican Party's credit in Mississippi, they did.
01:24:26 --> 01:24:29 And she wasn't punished for that, right?
01:24:30 --> 01:24:35 Initially, punishments were given out when you voted against something,
01:24:35 --> 01:24:40 But then compassion kind of kicked in and logic kind of kicked in and say,
01:24:40 --> 01:24:45 hey, look, you know, legislators are not going to always go with what the governor wants.
01:24:47 --> 01:24:51 Congressmen and women are not going to go with what the president wants all
01:24:51 --> 01:24:53 the time, even if they're the same party.
01:24:53 --> 01:24:56 That's just how this dynamic is supposed to work.
01:24:57 --> 01:25:03 And if you punish people for that, then so be it. Democrats get criticized because
01:25:03 --> 01:25:09 of the way we handled Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema or Fetterman.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:15 Democratic Party lets the process go forward, and we understand,
01:25:15 --> 01:25:19 well, we can't get them on these particular votes.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:25 We move on. Now, if they get primary, then they lose in the primary, so be it.
01:25:26 --> 01:25:28 They had a fair shot to stay in. Somebody beat them.
01:25:29 --> 01:25:32 The constituency say we want somebody more aligned with the party than what
01:25:32 --> 01:25:35 you show. Then that's on the voters.
01:25:35 --> 01:25:37 But the party's not going to punish them.
01:25:38 --> 01:25:43 Now, I'm not saying that the Democratic Party has a light touch.
01:25:44 --> 01:25:48 I'm a witness to how the party can inflex its muscles.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:53 But the beauty of the Democratic Party to me, from my experience,
01:25:53 --> 01:25:58 has been even if you flex the muscles, folks are going to be like,
01:25:59 --> 01:26:01 nook if you buck, let's go for it.
01:26:01 --> 01:26:04 If you're going to come against me, so be it. I've seen so many people,
01:26:05 --> 01:26:14 AOC, who everybody loves now, she beat leadership to get into Congress because
01:26:14 --> 01:26:17 she took her appeal to the people.
01:26:17 --> 01:26:22 The people made a decision, do we want the guy who's fourth in line to be Speaker
01:26:22 --> 01:26:25 of the House or do we want somebody new? And they chose somebody new.
01:26:26 --> 01:26:28 And that's the way it's supposed to work.
01:26:29 --> 01:26:35 Trust me, people in the party were trying to protect this particular congressman, but it didn't work.
01:26:37 --> 01:26:45 You know, it's just, and they sure weren't writing tweets and posts on social
01:26:45 --> 01:26:51 media, you know, saying she was this and they were that. You know what I'm saying?
01:26:52 --> 01:26:57 When she got there, she talked to the leadership. They knew where she was coming
01:26:57 --> 01:26:59 from. She knew where they were coming from.
01:27:00 --> 01:27:07 Been rocking and rolling ever since. So that's just party dynamics,
01:27:08 --> 01:27:10 right, in a normal sense.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:18 But on the other side, either you're all in or you're out the game.
01:27:19 --> 01:27:26 That's crazy. That's overreacting. That's not being competent in leadership.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:30 It's a consistent theme with them.
01:27:30 --> 01:27:36 And it is up to us as voters to decide, do we want that to continue?
01:27:37 --> 01:27:41 Who's going to be the Fannie Lou Hamer of the Republican Party?
01:27:42 --> 01:27:50 Who's going to be the one who does what needs to be done to shake this up and
01:27:50 --> 01:27:53 to get that party back on track?
01:27:54 --> 01:27:57 We're always going to have a liberal party. We're always going to have a conservative party.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:02 And how things line up, it is what it is. And there's going to be factions within
01:28:02 --> 01:28:06 those parties that are going to buck the leadership to the left and to the right.
01:28:07 --> 01:28:09 That's how the political process goes.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:15 What cannot happen is a political party that wants to take away the liberties
01:28:15 --> 01:28:20 of every citizen, except those in alignment with them.
01:28:20 --> 01:28:28 And not just 80% alignment, not 90% alignment, 100%. That's got to change.
01:28:29 --> 01:28:33 And it's got to change sooner rather than later.
01:28:35 --> 01:28:41 And as we have given thanks for the year that we have survived,
01:28:41 --> 01:28:44 or in some cases thrived, right?
01:28:45 --> 01:28:48 We're thankful for those good moments and all that stuff.
01:28:49 --> 01:28:56 I'm just, I'm thankful that we're in a country where there are enough free-minded
01:28:56 --> 01:29:00 folks that are saying enough is enough.
01:29:00 --> 01:29:03 And that they are willing to do the work,
01:29:04 --> 01:29:16 whether run for office or do a podcast or write editorials or stand in hot weather
01:29:16 --> 01:29:17 and cold weather the protests,
01:29:18 --> 01:29:19 or just vote.
01:29:20 --> 01:29:25 I just appreciate those people that are willing to do what needs to be done,
01:29:26 --> 01:29:28 to fix what needs to be fixed.
01:29:29 --> 01:29:34 And as long as I'm able to do this, I will continue to uplift people who are
01:29:34 --> 01:29:41 doing the work and to encourage all of you to keep repairing the breach.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:46 All right, that's all I got. Thank you all for listening. Until next time.