In this episode, Dr. Marybeth Gasman, Executive Director of the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Institute for Leadership, Equity & Justice and Distinguished Professor at Rutgers University, explains the historical and current relevance of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, while Dr. David A. Sanders, President of Malcolm X College, discusses the unique opportunities and challenges of running a Predominately Black College in this day and age.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:20 --> 00:01:55 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:01 --> 00:02:08 And today we're going to talk about historically and predominantly black colleges and universities.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:14 Yeah, we're about a month away from college starting again.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 I know it's hard to believe, man, this year is going so fast.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:23 At one point, it seemed like it wasn't going.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:28 And based on the politics, it seems like it's been going on forever.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 But yeah, we're halfway through 2025.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:42 And so it's about that time for young men and women to start matriculating at
00:02:42 --> 00:02:44 their respective colleges and universities.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:50 And so it's very fortunate that I have a divine producer.
00:02:52 --> 00:02:57 And that set it up where I have two experts consider, you know,
00:02:57 --> 00:03:04 that not considering, but two experts that concentrate, I think is the word I want to use.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 On Black colleges and universities.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:15 One is a scholar that has been instrumental in providing the history and the
00:03:15 --> 00:03:19 relevance of Black colleges and universities in the United States,
00:03:19 --> 00:03:24 and then to actually have a president of one of these institutions to come on,
00:03:25 --> 00:03:32 a young man who's from the area, who is now leading an institution in the area.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:36 You know, what a blessing that is. So I'm really, really excited.
00:03:37 --> 00:03:44 It was a joy to talk to these people, and I hope that you enjoy the conversations that we had.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 So, this is going to be a good show, and I appreciate y'all's support.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:55 Still trying to get to 20. That's my magic number, 20 subscribers on
00:03:55 --> 00:03:58 patreon.com slash amoment with Erik Fleming.
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00:04:02 --> 00:04:07 up and support this program other than just listening.
00:04:08 --> 00:04:13 You know, there's a lot of things I still want to do, and there's some things
00:04:13 --> 00:04:14 that I probably need to get involved with.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 A little more with this venue. So please subscribe.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:23 And I would greatly appreciate that. All right.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:27 So let's go ahead and start the program. And as always, we kick it off with
00:04:27 --> 00:04:29 a moment of news with Grace G.
00:04:31 --> 00:04:37 Music.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:41 Thanks, Erik. President Trump signed his significant tax and spending cut package
00:04:41 --> 00:04:44 into law after it narrowly passed through Congress.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:49 Planned Parenthood has sued the Trump administration, alleging a domestic policy
00:04:49 --> 00:04:53 bill provision that prevents Medicaid reimbursements is unconstitutional.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:57 Elon Musk announced the formation of a new U.S. political party,
00:04:57 --> 00:05:02 the America Party, citing his opposition to President Trump's recently signed tax bill.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:07 Flash floods near San Antonio, Texas, killed at least 119 people,
00:05:07 --> 00:05:11 with more than 170 people still unaccounted for. The U.S.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 Supreme Court has allowed the Trump administration to proceed with plans for
00:05:15 --> 00:05:19 mass government job cuts and the downsizing of numerous federal agencies.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:24 The Internal Revenue Service will allow houses of worship to endorse political
00:05:24 --> 00:05:29 candidates without jeopardizing their tax-exempt status. President Trump stated
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 his administration is considering taking over governance of Washington, D.C.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:37 Due to his dissatisfaction with current leadership and crime rates.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:42 Eight migrants lost their final appeal on Friday to avoid deportation to South
00:05:42 --> 00:05:47 Sudan by the Trump administration after a Massachusetts judge denied their request.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 A federal appeals court on Thursday upheld an injunction blocking a Texas law
00:05:52 --> 00:05:57 that would allow state authorities to arrest and prosecute individuals suspected
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 of allegedly crossing the U.S.-Mexico border.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:04 Pope Leo appointed French Archbishop Thibaut Verney as the new head of the Vatican's
00:06:04 --> 00:06:07 Commission on Clergy Sexual Abuse.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:11 A 27-year-old Michigan man was fatally shot by U.S.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:15 Border Patrol agents after he opened fire with an assault rifle on a Border
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 Patrol station in McAllen, Texas.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:24 The U.S. has reached a six-year high in measles cases this year, with 1 reported.
00:06:24 --> 00:06:29 And the Transportation Security Administration has ended its nearly two-decade-long
00:06:29 --> 00:06:34 policy, requiring travelers to remove their shoes during security checks at U.S.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:39 Airports. I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:46 Music.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for
00:06:50 --> 00:06:54 my guest, Dr. Marybeth Gasman.
00:06:54 --> 00:07:00 Dr. Marybeth Gasman is the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Endowed Chair in Education,
00:07:00 --> 00:07:05 a distinguished professor, and the Associate Dean for Research in the Graduate
00:07:05 --> 00:07:08 School of Education at Rutgers University.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 She also serves as the Executive Director of the Samuel DeWitt Proctor Institute
00:07:13 --> 00:07:19 for Leadership, Equity, and Justice, and the Executive Director of the Rutgers
00:07:19 --> 00:07:21 Center for Minority-Serving Institutions.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:28 Prior to joining the faculty at Rutgers, Marybeth was the Judy and Howard Berkowitz
00:07:28 --> 00:07:33 Endowed Professor in the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:42 She is the author or editor of 35 books, including Educating a Diverse Nation,
00:07:42 --> 00:07:47 Envisioning Black Colleges, Making Black Scientists,
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 Doing the Right Thing, How to End Systemic Racism in Faculty Hiring.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:57 HBCU, The Power of Historically Black Colleges and Universities,
00:07:57 --> 00:08:02 and the newest book, Why Historically Black Colleges Matter,
00:08:02 --> 00:08:05 25 Years of Research for Justice.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:11 Marybeth has written over 300 peer-reviewed articles, scholarly essays, and book chapters.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:19 She has penned over 650 opinion articles for the nation's newspapers and magazines
00:08:19 --> 00:08:26 and is ranked by Education Week as one of the 20 most influential education scholars in the nation.
00:08:26 --> 00:08:31 Marybeth has raised over $24 million in grant funding to support her research
00:08:31 --> 00:08:35 and that of her students, mentees, and MSI partners.
00:08:35 --> 00:08:39 She has served on the board of trustees of the College Board,
00:08:39 --> 00:08:44 as well as historically black colleges, Paul Quinn College, Morris Brown College,
00:08:44 --> 00:08:47 and St. Augustine College.
00:08:47 --> 00:08:53 She considers her proudest accomplishment to be receiving the University of
00:08:53 --> 00:08:57 Pennsylvania's Provost Award for Distinguished Ph.D.
00:08:57 --> 00:09:03 Teaching and Mentoring, serving as the dissertation chair for over 85,
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 excuse me, doctoral students since 2000.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 Marybeth is an avid photographer, loves to write, and believes balance and
00:09:11 --> 00:09:15 harmony are essential to achieving life goals.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:20 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:09:20 --> 00:09:24 on this podcast, Marybeth Gasman.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:36 Music.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:41 All right. Dr. Marybeth Gasman. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:09:42 --> 00:09:46 I am good. Thank you. Nice to be here with you. It was nice to be here with you, too.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 All right. I know you got a whole bunch of other things because you're so popular under the man.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 So we're going to go ahead and get this interview started.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:59 All righty. So I do a couple of icebreakers. So the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:06 And the quote is, moreover, as we move through this moment of national uncertainty,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:10 we cannot lose sight of what makes the U.S.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:16 Vibrant, the recognition that talent exists in every community and that we all
00:10:16 --> 00:10:18 benefit when everyone has a chance to thrive.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:25 What does that quote mean to you? It means to me that we should be really proud
00:10:25 --> 00:10:33 of the fact that the country is so diverse and unique across the world in that regard,
00:10:33 --> 00:10:39 and that we should want everyone in our country to succeed and thrive as much as possible.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:44 All right. So my next icebreaker is a game I call 20 Questions,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:48 and I thank Lisa Swallow for coming up with that. Okay.
00:10:49 --> 00:10:51 So give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:59 16. All right. What is a misconception people often have about your beliefs or values?
00:11:00 --> 00:11:06 I would say that people have a misconception about my background and thus attribute
00:11:06 --> 00:11:08 beliefs and values to me.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:14 And so a lot of times people think that I came, most people think I was born
00:11:14 --> 00:11:17 in New York to a rich, educated family.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:26 And I was not. I was born in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to an uneducated, extremely poor family.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:32 And I think because they assume the former,
00:11:32 --> 00:11:39 they assume that I don't care about issues that are really, really important
00:11:39 --> 00:11:46 to me, which opportunity and equity and access, because if not for all of those things,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:49 I would not have my career.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 I would not have any livelihood without those things.
00:11:54 --> 00:11:57 So they are incredibly important to me, not just for myself,
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 but that everyone get to partake in that. And that links back to that quote, right?
00:12:02 --> 00:12:07 So, yeah. Yeah. I think the biggest misconception people had of me that I was
00:12:07 --> 00:12:12 a trust fund kid because I would show up at all these political fundraisers
00:12:12 --> 00:12:13 when I was first getting started.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:18 And people were wondering who is this guy and where did he come from and all
00:12:18 --> 00:12:19 that stuff. They just thought I had money.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:23 And it was like, no, I, and more than likely I probably walked to the event
00:12:23 --> 00:12:26 instead of drove. So yeah. Yeah.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:33 Yeah. Yeah. All right. So why do historically black colleges and universities matter?
00:12:33 --> 00:12:38 Well, there are a number of reasons. I think historically without them,
00:12:38 --> 00:12:41 we would not have the black middle class that we have now.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:47 We would not have the black excellence and expertise and academic achievement
00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 and professional achievement that we have now because,
00:12:51 --> 00:12:56 of course, majority institutions would not enroll Black students because they
00:12:56 --> 00:13:00 were segregationist, racist, elitist, all of those things.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:06 And so Black colleges fill that need. And I would say today.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:10 Black colleges continue to fill many of those needs.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:16 They are places where people can explore their Black identity,
00:13:16 --> 00:13:21 their Blackness in a multitude of forms, which I think is so important.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:26 They are places that care about Black intellect, Black leadership.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:34 Black contributions that really kind of form a kind of wraparound around students
00:13:34 --> 00:13:36 and anyone within their ethos.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:40 And for me, that's incredibly important. You know,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 one thing I worry so much about right now in the country is what is going to
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 happen to all these young black children and other children as well,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:50 but young black children who
00:13:50 --> 00:13:54 are being told in many ways by our administration that they don't matter.
00:13:55 --> 00:13:58 And not that that hasn't happened before, but it's happening right now.
00:13:59 --> 00:14:04 And I think black colleges are so essential because they are always like black
00:14:04 --> 00:14:06 lives have always mattered at black colleges.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:13 But all all blackness in all of its forms have has been lifted up at black colleges.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 That's incredibly important.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 And if if you're white and you're listening and you don't get that,
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 you got to do more reading. You got to do more thinking.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:26 You got to like jump outside of yourself and understand that you don't necessarily
00:14:26 --> 00:14:30 understand everything that's happening around you.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:37 But you devoted 25 years of research into highlighting the contributions of HBCUs.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 What started you on your journey?
00:14:39 --> 00:14:44 Why did you go down that path as far as your research and your expertise?
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 Well, so when I was in graduate school, I was in graduate school and getting
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 a PhD, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do because I came from a very
00:14:55 --> 00:15:00 uneducated family and I didn't have really social capital to understand how it all worked.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 So I was just kind of taking classes and trying to figure out what I was going to do.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:09 And I took this class related to philanthropy and higher education.
00:15:09 --> 00:15:14 And in that class, my teacher gave me, this is in when I was getting a PhD,
00:15:14 --> 00:15:20 but gave me a book called The Education of Blacks in the South by James Anderson, who is an HBCU grad.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:28 And that book fundamentally changed my entire career trajectory and also my
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 way of thinking. And it's an amazing book.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 I have two copies. One of them is just falling apart and my students bought me another one.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:42 But what it does is it shows the agency and the activism and the actions of
00:15:42 --> 00:15:48 Black people after the Civil War to ensure that they were educated,
00:15:48 --> 00:15:51 to ensure that Black people were educated.
00:15:51 --> 00:15:56 And, you know, yes, Black people have been victims and victimized,
00:15:56 --> 00:15:59 but what this does is it doesn't just show that story.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:05 It shows the entirety of the story. So rather than saying, oh,
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 black people were in this difficult position and white people swooped in and
00:16:08 --> 00:16:11 they saved them all, it shows another story.
00:16:12 --> 00:16:18 It shows how black people created much of their own destiny and also how there
00:16:18 --> 00:16:23 were white people who swooped in, but not for the reasons you think,
00:16:23 --> 00:16:29 instead for the reasons of they might have needed a semi-skilled workforce. You know what I mean?
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34 It was a really, really interesting book, and I just wanted to learn more,
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 and I learned about Black colleges. I learned about Fisk University in that
00:16:37 --> 00:16:39 book, which is the first Black college I ever went to.
00:16:39 --> 00:16:44 I've been to 103 of the 105 now, but I've been to Fisk about 17 times,
00:16:44 --> 00:16:47 and it changed my whole way of thinking.
00:16:47 --> 00:16:52 It made me realize that the education that I got was not complete.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:57 And that and at first I was really mad, you know, because that's what happens
00:16:57 --> 00:16:59 when something, you know, you get mad.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:03 But then I decided to kind of do something about it and really dedicate my life
00:17:03 --> 00:17:10 to being a historian and someone who is, you know, interested in delving deeply into black history.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:17 So it changed my life completely. And I go back and read that book all the time. Yeah, that's cool.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:24 Having served on several boards of HBCUs, what do you see as the biggest challenge
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 to the sustainability of these institutions and what can be done to fix that?
00:17:28 --> 00:17:33 Well, you learn a lot by serving on boards, and I've served on three HBCU boards,
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 three HBCUs that are completely different.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:43 I think what you learn is that the best HBCUs have boards that hire the president.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 That's your job, hiring the president.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:53 Believe in that president, support that president, and help them to do their best job.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 If they don't, it becomes really problematic.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 I mean, if the board is trying to run the university or the college,
00:18:01 --> 00:18:03 it becomes really, really difficult.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:08 I think that's where you see like leadership turnover. And that is an issue.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:12 I mean, it's not just an issue at HBCUs. It's an issue everywhere right now
00:18:12 --> 00:18:13 because who would want to be a president?
00:18:14 --> 00:18:17 But especially with all the federal attacks on higher education.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:21 But but it also, you know, HBCUs have had quite a bit of presidential turnover.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 That leads to instability. So that can be a really difficult situation.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:33 I also think that, you know, another big challenge is enrollment fluctuations.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:39 Because HBCUs are incredibly tuition-driven, which means that their livelihood
00:18:39 --> 00:18:46 is based on how many students they have, it's incredibly important to keep that enrollment steady.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:51 And that can be really difficult, especially when we have all of what's going on right now.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:55 And, you know, right now we have a large-scale attack on the value of higher
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 education. And so that means that there are people out there saying,
00:18:59 --> 00:19:00 well, you don't need a college degree.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:03 It's always people with a college degree saying that, though.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 Find me someone who says it without one, okay? And one thing that we know is
00:19:08 --> 00:19:13 that if you have a college degree, your health is better, your income is going
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 to be higher, your safety is better.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:21 There are all of these things that become better because you have more education.
00:19:21 --> 00:19:27 You're able to navigate our nation and democracy in more productive ways.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:34 So it's really important that enrollment continue to rise and not kind of,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:36 you know, kind of go up and down at HBCUs.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:40 And then I would say another major one is.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:47 The thing that I tell everybody over and over, and I've been saying for years,
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 and I've testified before Congress about this, is there are two areas where
00:19:51 --> 00:19:53 HBCUs need immense help.
00:19:53 --> 00:20:00 And that is they need an infrastructure built out for what's like the procurement
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 of grants and contracts.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:07 Some of them have that now, but some of them, compared to majority institutions,
00:20:07 --> 00:20:11 there's really not much of a comparison because they need to be able to go out
00:20:11 --> 00:20:12 and get more grants and contracts.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 The other thing they need, which kind of goes hand in hand with that,
00:20:16 --> 00:20:19 is they need more developed fundraising areas.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:25 And I would love to see a philanthropist come in and develop those areas fully
00:20:25 --> 00:20:33 for HBCUs because that would be transformational for what HBCUs could do.
00:20:33 --> 00:20:37 I mean, there are some that have really built out these areas,
00:20:37 --> 00:20:41 but by and large, they're underdeveloped.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:47 Yeah. So as an alum of an HBCU, I went to Jackson State University.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:51 My biggest concern has been endowments at these institutions.
00:20:51 --> 00:20:57 Is it possible for alumni of these institutions to build endowments like their
00:20:57 --> 00:21:03 PWI counterparts, I always compared Jackson State to like Rice University, right?
00:21:03 --> 00:21:10 So Rice University, private school, you know, you had this guy who gave a whole lot of money.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:16 The school is actually smaller than Jackson State, but they have this incredible endowment, right?
00:21:16 --> 00:21:20 Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I look at, you know, the history of Jackson State
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 and it was like it was a teacher's college initially.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:29 Right, it was. So you don't, so you're not going to get big dollar donors coming
00:21:29 --> 00:21:31 out of a teacher's college, right?
00:21:31 --> 00:21:36 You know, now that it's expanded and all that with engineering and all that,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:44 but is it realistic for HBCUs to be able to build those kinds of endowments?
00:21:45 --> 00:21:49 Okay, so here's an interesting thing. I probably, I think, you know,
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 your example is really interesting.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:57 I would probably make a slightly different comparison where I might look at
00:21:57 --> 00:22:02 a private institution in Mississippi or a public, another public,
00:22:02 --> 00:22:04 predominantly white institution in Mississippi.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 But let's just think about this for a minute.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:11 The reason why these institutions like a Rice or a Duke or an Emory,
00:22:11 --> 00:22:17 or you can take institutions all over the country that are private and have large endowments.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:23 There are endowments, I want you to think about it for listeners in terms of your own money, okay?
00:22:23 --> 00:22:27 So if you invest your money in, let's say a brokerage account,
00:22:27 --> 00:22:29 it's going to grow, grow, grow.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:33 And the more money you have, the bigger it's gonna get. So these institutions
00:22:33 --> 00:22:40 have all of this old money and it's growing and growing and growing and growing.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:42 And so to catch up with that is really difficult.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:48 Now, could you have someone who makes it big and decides to make a really big
00:22:48 --> 00:22:51 donation to Jackson State?
00:22:51 --> 00:22:55 Yes, you could. And they could give that to the endowment and then that would
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 help the endowment to start growing and growing and growing.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:02 What would be even better is if they made that donation and then got 10 of their
00:23:02 --> 00:23:08 friends to join them in the donation and then they got 10 of their friends to join.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:13 I mean, there definitely are issues around the fact that African-Americans historically
00:23:13 --> 00:23:19 and today don't make as much money, don't have as many assets as white people.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:24 And so they're not going to be able to give as much. But.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:29 You definitely need to see more giving. I mean, one thing I do know is that
00:23:29 --> 00:23:33 among public HBCUs, the alumni giving rates have gone up a little,
00:23:33 --> 00:23:35 but they're still, you know, not that high.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:39 And so you, if you care about your institution, you got to give to the institution.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:44 And as you make it, you have, you know, you want to give back to the institution
00:23:44 --> 00:23:49 and anybody that you know who could be giving to the institution,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:51 you want to be talking to them about the institution.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 So I'll love Fisk, because it's the first HBCU I ever went to.
00:23:56 --> 00:24:01 It's got this amazing history, you know, like just all these Harlem Renaissance
00:24:01 --> 00:24:04 luminaries who were there and just amazing, amazing people.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:09 And I mean, like James Weldon Johnson, right, who wrote Lift Every Voice,
00:24:09 --> 00:24:14 I mean, or Aaron Douglas, or like there's County Cullen, or Georgia O'Keeffe
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 gave her an art collection there.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:19 W.E.B. Du Bois went there. I mean, there's just so many people.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:27 So what I, I, I literally, anytime someone I can bring up Fisk and kind of get
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 people to give to Fisk, I will bring it up.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 I literally, Hey, do you know about Fisk? Hey, you're in Nashville.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:37 You've got a great job. You know, do you know about Fisk? I'm always telling
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 people about Fisk because I would like more people to give to it.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 So that's what you got to do with your alma mater.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:48 And, and if you, if you're in business and you meet people who have money and
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 they're looking for places to give, bring up your alma mater.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:53 You know, that's an important thing to do.
00:24:53 --> 00:25:00 But we can't get away from the fact that African Americans have fewer assets, make less money.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 We live in an unequitable, it's inequitable, right?
00:25:03 --> 00:25:07 Our country is inequitable in terms of this. No matter what people are trying
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 to tell you, it's inequitable.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:14 So that makes it harder. What I always tell people, money begets money.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:17 Right. The more money you have, the more money you're going to get.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:22 And the more money you have, the more often people are going to give you things.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:28 It's just that they want to be attached to things that are rich and successful.
00:25:28 --> 00:25:33 So, you know, try to give as much as you can to your alma mater and more people
00:25:33 --> 00:25:34 will give if they see you giving.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 And then you got to tell everybody you're giving to don't hide it.
00:25:38 --> 00:25:41 Like, say that you're giving. That's incredibly important. Yeah.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 So it's funny that you mentioned about comparing it to other schools.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:51 What triggered me on this journey looking at endowments was the fact that when
00:25:51 --> 00:25:55 I served in the state legislature, you know, Jackson State, Mississippi has
00:25:55 --> 00:25:57 eight state-supported universities.
00:25:57 --> 00:26:06 And so, you know, I looked at Jackson State and I'm saying 70% of their money
00:26:06 --> 00:26:08 comes from the state, right?
00:26:08 --> 00:26:13 As far as we appropriate money, whereas the University of Mississippi or folks
00:26:13 --> 00:26:17 call it Ole Miss, they were only getting 30% of their money from the state.
00:26:17 --> 00:26:22 And so I was like, well, why is that? And that's when I started diving into
00:26:22 --> 00:26:28 the endowment thing. So, yeah, so that's why, you know, I was that's always
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 been ever since then, that's always been an issue.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:34 And I've and I've tried to do my part and got others as well.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 You already stated that HBCUs are the most important factor in the creation
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 of a black middle class in America.
00:26:42 --> 00:26:48 Given the polarization that is happening in America, do you believe that a black
00:26:48 --> 00:26:52 person's best option to succeed is to attend an HBCU?
00:26:53 --> 00:27:01 I think that the best option for Black people and any students is to go to a
00:27:01 --> 00:27:06 college where they feel affirmed and empowered and seen.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:14 And so, for example, if that is an HBCU, then yes, absolutely go there.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:20 But if if what you're interested in is at another institution and you are treated
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 well, then I think it's perfectly fine to go there.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:27 I mean, I won't I'll be I'll be really frank about this. Like,
00:27:27 --> 00:27:28 you know, so I have a daughter.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:32 Right. And my daughter went to a women's college and it was one of the best
00:27:32 --> 00:27:36 things that could have ever happened to her. I mean, she is confident and she
00:27:36 --> 00:27:38 knows how to advocate for herself.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:45 If I were an African-American woman and I had a daughter, I would absolutely
00:27:45 --> 00:27:46 want her to go to Spelman.
00:27:46 --> 00:27:49 I mean, there is no doubt in my mind that I would want her to go to Spelman.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:51 You know, I just, I would.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:57 And part of that is because I have never met a Spelman woman who I wasn't impressed with, ever.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:03 I've met so many women who've gone to Spelman who are, they're confident,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 they can advocate for themselves, they know what they want out of life.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:10 And I think that's incredibly important.
00:28:11 --> 00:28:17 And I also see that in a lot of graduates from other HBCUs as well.
00:28:17 --> 00:28:23 But I do think that the key is that African-Americans should have the choice
00:28:23 --> 00:28:25 to go wherever they want to go.
00:28:25 --> 00:28:29 And Black colleges are one of those choices. Now,
00:28:29 --> 00:28:35 I will say that hopefully we don't see a lot of these majority institutions
00:28:35 --> 00:28:38 acquiescing to the demands of the Trump administration,
00:28:38 --> 00:28:45 because I think then they will become places that are really not welcoming to
00:28:45 --> 00:28:47 African-American students.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:53 And, you know, HBCUs can't, they don't have the room to educate every African-American student.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 There are too many, right? So it's important that African-Americans have choices,
00:28:57 --> 00:29:04 but I do think that they offer a safer space with regard to racial issues than
00:29:04 --> 00:29:06 most institutions right now.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:11 Yeah. So since you kind of mentioned our current president, what is your biggest
00:29:11 --> 00:29:15 concern in this political climate concerning HBCUs?
00:29:15 --> 00:29:22 Well, so far, he's been fairly hands-off with direct hits to HBCUs.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:30 I am concerned about the Pell Grant because almost 70% of HBCU students receive Pell Grants.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:39 Lowering Pell, messing with Pell, that's really detrimental to the future of HBCUs.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 I don't know about you, I was a Pell Grant student incredibly important.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:47 That's one thing I'm worried about. Messing with the TRIO programs,
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 which are prominent on HBCU campuses and many others.
00:29:52 --> 00:29:58 Concerned about that. Messing with grants that have to do with anything that he deems DEI.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:03 Most of them have nothing to do with that at all. But there are a lot of HBCU.
00:30:04 --> 00:30:09 I've been very excited about all the HBCU scientists that have been getting
00:30:09 --> 00:30:13 like NSF, NIH grants, where before they weren't getting very many.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 Now they under Biden, they were getting a lot more because, you know,
00:30:16 --> 00:30:20 really tried to work on equity and fairness there.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:26 I'm worried about that money fading away and being taken away from young Black
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 scientists. I mean, we really need young Black scientists. This is so important.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:38 I am concerned about Trump's attacks on foundations that support Black colleges
00:30:38 --> 00:30:42 and give money to issues that are important to Black colleges.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:48 He's been threatening foundations to be taxing them at much higher rates and
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 everything. So those are some of the things I think at this point he's been
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 persuaded not to do a direct hit.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 But that doesn't mean that there aren't a number of conservative groups out there who would like.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 I mean, I've read their work, right? They don't want public HBCUs to receive any money,
00:31:06 --> 00:31:10 even though these are probably the descendants of the same people that are the
00:31:10 --> 00:31:15 reasons why we have public HBCUs, because they wouldn't let people into predominantly
00:31:15 --> 00:31:16 white institutions, right?
00:31:16 --> 00:31:21 I believe wholeheartedly that these are probably the descendants of those people.
00:31:21 --> 00:31:27 So, you know, it's so interesting that states created these institutions,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:31 the public ones, in order to maintain segregation.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:36 And then at the same time, here they come with people wanting to eliminate them
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39 because they don't want to give to something that's black.
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 Right. I mean, how ironic is that? That's why we need to. I mean,
00:31:43 --> 00:31:46 I'm a historian and it's incredibly important that we know our history.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:51 Incredibly, incredibly important because people will play us.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:56 They will play people if you do not know your history. You're seeing it daily.
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 Yeah well and that's that's the reason i love history i
00:31:59 --> 00:32:03 tell people all the time you got to understand history to
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 understand a lot of the things that are going on now and
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 and to answer your question yes i was a pell grant student i
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 had an academic scholarship to jackson state but that pell grant
00:32:12 --> 00:32:17 helped out a lot too so let's close
00:32:17 --> 00:32:20 out with this how you you've been to you
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 said 103 out of the 105 hbcus
00:32:23 --> 00:32:30 yeah i have yeah what what was your most memorable experience at an hbcu so
00:32:30 --> 00:32:40 my most memorable experience is so i have this friend his name is kent wallace
00:32:40 --> 00:32:42 and he is a physicist at Fisk.
00:32:43 --> 00:32:48 And I have known him since I was 17 years old. Okay.
00:32:48 --> 00:32:52 And, you know, we knew each other when we were younger.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 We lived, he lived in Chicago. I lived up in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan,
00:32:55 --> 00:32:57 but we were sort of like pen pals.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 And, you know, we ended up losing touch.
00:33:01 --> 00:33:06 Both went off to college. And the most interesting thing that happened to both
00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 of us is that I ended up doing research related to HBCUs.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 He ended up attending an HBCU and, you know, he's an African-American man.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:20 He attended HBCU and he ended up teaching at FISC. He's now the dean of the grad school there.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:26 And we ended up, he runs this thing called the FISC Rocket Program,
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 which is an amazing, amazing program at FISC.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:32 And I wrote this piece for the Chronicle of Higher Ed about the FISC Rocket
00:33:32 --> 00:33:34 Program, not realizing that he ran it.
00:33:35 --> 00:33:40 And after I wrote it and wrote this very, like, uplifting piece about what they
00:33:40 --> 00:33:47 were doing, he sent me an email that said, are you Mary, who I knew when I was, like, 17?
00:33:47 --> 00:33:51 And I was like, I don't know. And because he had a different,
00:33:52 --> 00:33:55 he used a different name at that point, his first name.
00:33:56 --> 00:34:02 And he said, it's Kent. And I was just like, oh, my God, you are my pen pal from when I was young.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 And basically we reunited and
00:34:06 --> 00:34:09 now we see each other every single year and i'll tell
00:34:09 --> 00:34:14 you my memory is that whenever i go to nashville i go to fist and i ask for
00:34:14 --> 00:34:19 the same tour every year that he gives me where we go to all the special places
00:34:19 --> 00:34:23 like the dubois sculpture jubilee hall where the jubilee singers that where
00:34:23 --> 00:34:28 they funded that all of the beautiful pictures of the jubilee singers the chapel,
00:34:28 --> 00:34:30 the Georgia O'Keeffe art collection.
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 The, you know, the Aaron Douglas murals.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:39 I go back and see them over and over every, every time I go and Kent gives the best to her.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:44 So that's my, that's my beautiful memory about Fisk and my dear,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:49 dear friend who we were reunited because of Fisk, which is so lovely,
00:34:49 --> 00:34:51 you know? That's really, really cool.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 And for the younger listeners out there.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57 Yes. Before social media, we used to do the pen pal thing.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:03 It'll be a whole nother show to have to explain that. Look, Dr.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:08 Marybeth Gasman, I really, really am honored to have met you and to talk to
00:35:08 --> 00:35:10 you and to have you come on the podcast.
00:35:11 --> 00:35:17 And I know you've written like 35 or so odd books. How can people reach out to you?
00:35:17 --> 00:35:20 How can people get copies of the books? Go ahead and make that pitch?
00:35:20 --> 00:35:24 So they're all available. You can get them on Amazon, Barnes & Noble,
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27 any bookstore through any bookstore, a lot of local bookstores,
00:35:27 --> 00:35:29 African-American bookstores.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:37 My website is just marybethgassman.net, and you can click on all my books there.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:44 Please add me if you're on Instagram. It's just at marybethgasman or on LinkedIn if you like that.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:48 Feel free to add me, and I post about all my books and all the stuff I'm doing.
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 And I like to post about a lot of other
00:35:51 --> 00:35:54 people too, especially a lot of African-American scholars and leaders.
00:35:54 --> 00:35:57 So yeah. So that's how you can get ahold of me.
00:35:57 --> 00:36:02 Thank you, Eric. All right. Well, thank you, Dr. Gasman. I greatly appreciate you coming on.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:06 Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you. All right, guys, we'll catch y'all on the other side.
00:36:07 --> 00:36:26 Music.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:32 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. David A.
00:36:33 --> 00:36:37 Sanders. As the president of the new Malcolm X College, Dr.
00:36:37 --> 00:36:42 Sanders is responsible for over 15 students, over 900 employees,
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 and a combined budget of over $75 million.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:51 He is charged with the overall vision, mission, and operations of the college,
00:36:51 --> 00:36:55 as well as developing and implementing an overall strategic plan,
00:36:55 --> 00:37:01 a strategic enrollment management plan, and an equity plan for the college,
00:37:01 --> 00:37:03 which includes the development,
00:37:03 --> 00:37:07 accreditation, management, and control of 26 health science programs,
00:37:08 --> 00:37:09 12 of which are accredited.
00:37:10 --> 00:37:16 Since his appointment in 2015, President Sanders has successfully led Malcolm
00:37:16 --> 00:37:23 X College to approve site and 10-year reaccreditation visit by the Higher Learning Commission,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:32 and led Malcolm X to be named one of the 2019 and 2021 to 2024 most promising
00:37:32 --> 00:37:40 places to work in community college by the NISOD and diverse issues in higher education magazine.
00:37:41 --> 00:37:45 Successfully led Malcolm X College to meet or exceed its metrics and completion
00:37:45 --> 00:37:54 outcomes, including graduation rate, retention, completion, licensure pass rates, and job placement.
00:37:54 --> 00:37:59 Successfully led Malcolm X College to its highest enrollment in over 20 years,
00:37:59 --> 00:38:02 surpassing the 11 mark in credit enrollment.
00:38:03 --> 00:38:08 The growth in enrollment was led by African-American males, with enrollment
00:38:08 --> 00:38:10 gains in every demographic.
00:38:10 --> 00:38:17 Malcolm X College was one of only three colleges in Illinois to have enrollment
00:38:17 --> 00:38:20 gains during the 2020 coronavirus pandemic.
00:38:21 --> 00:38:27 Successfully led Malcolm X College to develop a study abroad program that has
00:38:27 --> 00:38:30 transformationally impacted students and energized the student body.
00:38:31 --> 00:38:35 Successfully led Malcolm X College to be named the best community college in
00:38:35 --> 00:38:38 the city of Chicago by Intelligent.com in 2023.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:46 Successfully managed the CCC School of Nursing to become one of the best associate
00:38:46 --> 00:38:51 degree nursing programs in the state by volume and average pass rates of over
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 90 percent over the past seven years,
00:38:54 --> 00:38:57 successfully led Malcolm X
00:38:57 --> 00:39:03 College to generate over $22 million in new grants for fiscal year 21-22 for
00:39:03 --> 00:39:09 a total grants portfolio exceeding $31 million and successfully managed the
00:39:09 --> 00:39:13 consolidation of six healthcare programs into the new Malcolm H.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:18 College, including approvals from the varied accrediting and regulatory bodies.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:26 Dr. Sanders holds a bachelor's degree in finance from DePaul University in Chicago
00:39:26 --> 00:39:31 and a master's in educational leadership from Concordia University and is a
00:39:31 --> 00:39:35 doctoral candidate in higher education leadership from Concordia University, Chicago.
00:39:36 --> 00:39:38 A dedicated and committed Christian man, Dr.
00:39:39 --> 00:39:44 Sanders serves his national, state, and local church in a variety of leadership
00:39:44 --> 00:39:48 capacities and is known for his faith, humility, liberality,
00:39:49 --> 00:39:52 patience, strength, and dogmatic determination.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:58 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor and privilege, my distinct honor and privilege
00:39:58 --> 00:40:03 to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr. David A. Sanders.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:15 Music.
00:40:15 --> 00:40:19 Dr. David A. Sanders. How are you doing, sir? Are you doing good?
00:40:20 --> 00:40:25 I'm doing great. How are you, Erik? I'm doing lovely, man. It's always good
00:40:25 --> 00:40:26 to talk to somebody in Chicago.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:32 I got to go by your campus when they had the Democratic Convention.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 We had to go by there and stuff. So it's changed a lot from when I left.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:45 I left in 1983, so it's a whole different campus structure, but it looks really, really good.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:51 Well, thank you. We worked very hard and very diligently to build a facility
00:40:51 --> 00:40:57 that the West Side, some say it's the best side, but that the West Side would
00:40:57 --> 00:41:01 be proud of, and they'd want to come to school here.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:06 But it wasn't just the physical structure was also the programs and the quality
00:41:06 --> 00:41:08 of instruction that we provide and then the supports.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 So we really tried to pull all of that together to make sure that we're providing
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 our students with the best in class and whatever they need.
00:41:17 --> 00:41:20 Yeah. Yeah. Now, I grew up on the south side of Chicago.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 So, you know, I might have to disagree with that west side thing,
00:41:24 --> 00:41:27 but, you know, it's all Chicago love. It's all good.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:32 That's right. All right. So normally how I start the interviews off,
00:41:32 --> 00:41:35 I do icebreakers. So the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:41:35 --> 00:41:40 When we invest in higher education spaces, we help to attract the next generation
00:41:40 --> 00:41:44 of students and create pathways to upward mobility.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:50 What does that quote mean to you? Well, I think it's indicative of what the
00:41:50 --> 00:41:51 world should be doing now,
00:41:52 --> 00:41:58 and it's why I'm so resistant to many of the policies that are being implemented right now,
00:41:58 --> 00:42:03 because they don't take into consideration those individuals who need help and
00:42:03 --> 00:42:08 support and haven't been provided the fundamental resources necessary for them
00:42:08 --> 00:42:09 to achieve their destiny.
00:42:09 --> 00:42:15 I believe every person has the ability to be great and that they were born to
00:42:15 --> 00:42:19 have a meaningful impact upon this country.
00:42:20 --> 00:42:26 And without us providing those supports and those helps and the investment,
00:42:26 --> 00:42:32 we limit the ability of individuals to achieve their true destiny.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:37 I think, you know, that's what we absolutely must do every single day and we'll
00:42:37 --> 00:42:39 be a better country for it. Yeah.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:44 All right. So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:47 So give me a number between one and 20.
00:42:48 --> 00:42:54 Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,
00:42:54 --> 00:42:57 current events, health, et cetera?
00:42:58 --> 00:43:02 Well, you know, what I've learned over the course of my years is that you can't
00:43:02 --> 00:43:05 believe everything you hear. So you have to investigate.
00:43:05 --> 00:43:11 You have to really figure out where you can get quantifiable,
00:43:12 --> 00:43:16 qualitative information that's going to allow you to make your best judgment.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:22 And that can be difficult at times, but it's important for us to realize that,
00:43:22 --> 00:43:27 you know, people have different perspectives on, you know, what they are producing
00:43:27 --> 00:43:28 or what they're presenting.
00:43:28 --> 00:43:33 So, you know, if they're presenting that, hey, you know, you're going to Mars
00:43:33 --> 00:43:39 tomorrow, well, you know, it's pretty easy for you to figure out that's not happening, right?
00:43:39 --> 00:43:43 But if they present to you that the world is great, well, you know,
00:43:43 --> 00:43:44 that's your perspective.
00:43:45 --> 00:43:49 So you've got to take all of those things into consideration and really get
00:43:49 --> 00:43:54 down to the core essence of truth to determine, you know, what is good information
00:43:54 --> 00:43:59 and what is bad information, and then do your own investigations to come up,
00:43:59 --> 00:44:05 you know, with the, you know, the reality of where we're at as relative to truth.
00:44:06 --> 00:44:11 And I think the final thing of that is always be open because you may believe
00:44:11 --> 00:44:16 something today, but you get information tomorrow that helps you to realize
00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 that that really is the truth that you should know about.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:25 Yeah. So how does it feel to be considered one of the titans of Chicago?
00:44:28 --> 00:44:32 Well, you know, I'm honored and privileged. You know, I think it just means
00:44:32 --> 00:44:37 that I've been working right and that we've been trying our best to do everything
00:44:37 --> 00:44:39 possible to help our students to be successful.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:46 And the fact that, you know, we are now going in to be a Hall of Fame for Titan
00:44:46 --> 00:44:48 is just incredible to me.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:53 I didn't even know that the organization existed three years ago.
00:44:53 --> 00:44:58 And now, you know, my name is being included, you know, across the country.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 And it's just representative of the work that my faculty, I think I have the
00:45:04 --> 00:45:05 best faculty in the world.
00:45:05 --> 00:45:10 They're amazing and they do, they're dedicated, committed to our students.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:13 My staff, they work so diligently and so hard.
00:45:14 --> 00:45:18 I mean, you know, when you look at where we were 15 years ago,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:23 well, I should say 10 years ago, because that's when I started there and look
00:45:23 --> 00:45:27 at where we're at Now it's night and day and it didn't happen,
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 you know, because of David Sanders,
00:45:29 --> 00:45:35 albeit it happened because our team came together and we gave a vision and a
00:45:35 --> 00:45:40 focus and they accepted it and adopted it and moved it forward.
00:45:40 --> 00:45:44 So, you know, I think it's representative of the work that we're continuing
00:45:44 --> 00:45:48 to do and that we're going to do in the future to make sure that every single
00:45:48 --> 00:45:53 student that walks through our door has the opportunity to succeed. Yeah.
00:45:54 --> 00:46:00 So outside of your higher education leadership training, you have been an active
00:46:00 --> 00:46:02 leader in your church denomination.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:07 Do you feel that your church work and your education work go hand in hand?
00:46:07 --> 00:46:11 And before you answer that, I have to acknowledge the fact that since you're
00:46:11 --> 00:46:13 a Concordia product, I grew up Lutheran.
00:46:14 --> 00:46:19 So I'm very familiar with Concordia and the excellent institutions that they've had. Yeah.
00:46:20 --> 00:46:23 They didn't offer me a scholarship, but, you know, it's still,
00:46:23 --> 00:46:26 you know, I'm very familiar with Concordia.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:29 So I know you have a solid background. So talk about how church,
00:46:30 --> 00:46:34 your church work and your education work synchronized.
00:46:34 --> 00:46:37 Well, really, I think it's a variety of different ways.
00:46:37 --> 00:46:42 You know, first, you know, I was, my mother brought us to church when I was five years old.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:46 And we were one of those families that, you know, it wasn't a question about
00:46:46 --> 00:46:48 whether you were going to church. You were born to church, right?
00:46:49 --> 00:46:52 So every Sunday morning, every Sunday night, every Tuesday night,
00:46:52 --> 00:46:54 every Friday night, we were at church.
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 We had to lead the basketball court to go to church.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:05 But it did so much for me. And my mother really was the driving force behind my success.
00:47:05 --> 00:47:09 She saw things in me that I didn't see in myself. She challenged me.
00:47:10 --> 00:47:14 She sent me to a Catholic school when I was in high school and a Lutheran school
00:47:14 --> 00:47:20 when I was in grade school because she wanted me to be more challenged. and sacrifice for me.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:27 So I'm forever grateful she just passed away recently and it's a big loss, but.
00:47:28 --> 00:47:31 You know, I will never forget a foundation she laid.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:36 And, you know, part of that foundation was she brought me to the place where
00:47:36 --> 00:47:37 I could have a relationship with God.
00:47:38 --> 00:47:42 And it's that relationship that I think helps me to look at things a little
00:47:42 --> 00:47:46 bit differently and to say, look, there's hope.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:50 There's opportunity that, you know, no matter where you came from,
00:47:50 --> 00:47:54 you can be great because you were touched with hands and have miracles in them.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:56 And I really believe that for our
00:47:56 --> 00:47:59 students. I believe that for the city of Chicago, we can change things.
00:48:00 --> 00:48:04 We have to change our mindset first. And we got to believe what God believes
00:48:04 --> 00:48:06 about us. And I think a lot of people don't believe that.
00:48:07 --> 00:48:12 I mean, you look at the thing that you did and you look at the things that you
00:48:12 --> 00:48:16 know are not right, that you participate in, and a lot of people judge themselves
00:48:16 --> 00:48:21 based on those things and say, hey, I can't be this or I can't do that.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:26 Or even think about, I grew up on the west side, or I grew up on the south side,
00:48:26 --> 00:48:30 or I grew up in this area, or that area, or these parents, or whatever.
00:48:30 --> 00:48:36 All these different things that they say are indicative of their ability to
00:48:36 --> 00:48:38 succeed, and it's really not true.
00:48:38 --> 00:48:40 You can do anything.
00:48:41 --> 00:48:46 Everybody has the ability to be great, but you have to remove those obstacles and those barriers.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:52 And that's what I think God has given me is an insight to be able to see those
00:48:52 --> 00:48:56 things and to say to students, you can make it, you're going to make it.
00:48:56 --> 00:48:59 And then to kind of start moving things out of the way,
00:49:00 --> 00:49:05 even when there are obstacles or people who really don't want to change,
00:49:05 --> 00:49:10 I've had the ability to figure out a way to get them to change because it's
00:49:10 --> 00:49:11 in the best interest of students.
00:49:12 --> 00:49:19 Yeah. Well, my condolences about your mom. I definitely understand that. My mom passed in 2013.
00:49:20 --> 00:49:26 So, you know, it never, it's always tough, but, you know,
00:49:26 --> 00:49:31 The children are the legacy and you've been I've never met your mom,
00:49:31 --> 00:49:34 but I can tell what legacy she left with you.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:39 Why do prominently black colleges and universities matter?
00:49:39 --> 00:49:43 And the reason why I ask you that is because Malcolm X College is not listed
00:49:43 --> 00:49:48 as a historically black college, but it is predominantly black.
00:49:48 --> 00:49:55 So, yeah, just talk about why do do the predominantly black institutions matter?
00:49:55 --> 00:50:02 I think it's important because of the culture and the heritage that's necessary
00:50:02 --> 00:50:08 for, you know, African-American students to understand who they are.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:13 You know, I sometimes my wife and I talk about this is that, you know,
00:50:14 --> 00:50:23 I believe in who I am because through God, I was able to understand the greatness
00:50:23 --> 00:50:27 that lies in me. that he planted, right?
00:50:27 --> 00:50:31 And so I got to a point where you couldn't punk me.
00:50:31 --> 00:50:36 You couldn't tell me something different about me that I would believe.
00:50:36 --> 00:50:40 And you couldn't say to me, oh, you're going to fail. Well, I don't believe that.
00:50:40 --> 00:50:43 You couldn't say to me, I can't achieve this. Well, I don't believe that.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:52 So I rose to a level and it took time and it took belief and understanding and
00:50:52 --> 00:50:59 I had to see myself, but I got to a point where I don't believe there's anything I can't do.
00:50:59 --> 00:51:01 If God brings it to me, I can do it.
00:51:02 --> 00:51:04 A lot of our young people don't.
00:51:04 --> 00:51:08 Have that same ability, but they don't believe it yet.
00:51:08 --> 00:51:13 They don't because they've been conditioned to believe, oh, you came from,
00:51:14 --> 00:51:16 you went to this school and that's a bad school.
00:51:16 --> 00:51:19 You didn't get these resources. You didn't get that.
00:51:19 --> 00:51:23 You know, your parents were not together, so you can't be great.
00:51:24 --> 00:51:30 Oh, you know, you, you know, you're black and so, or, you know,
00:51:30 --> 00:51:34 you're Hispanic or, you You know, you shouldn't be able to be great.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:37 That is all ridiculous.
00:51:37 --> 00:51:41 It absolutely has no truth to it whatsoever.
00:51:42 --> 00:51:48 Because of the hands that made us, that created us, we have the ability to do anything.
00:51:48 --> 00:51:51 So we focus on identity attainment.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:56 That's why we started our study abroad program, because we wanted to take students
00:51:56 --> 00:52:00 back to the homeland, to where they came from. Now, we didn't just,
00:52:00 --> 00:52:04 you know, put them on a plane and take them back.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:10 We gave them, we used 23andMe so that they could see their DNA,
00:52:10 --> 00:52:16 where they came from, and then we matched them up with the tribes in the regions
00:52:16 --> 00:52:21 that they came from so they could understand, why do I have rhythm?
00:52:21 --> 00:52:25 Why am I musically inclined? Why can I dance?
00:52:25 --> 00:52:32 Why do I think the way I do? It is all purposeful and it has a reason.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:37 And so when we went back and the students, I wish I could read some of the letters
00:52:37 --> 00:52:40 that they gave to us. They said, it's amazing.
00:52:40 --> 00:52:46 The impacts on their lives and how they see themselves now is totally different
00:52:46 --> 00:52:51 than what they did before because now they know who they are.
00:52:51 --> 00:52:55 And I believe once you know who you are, greatness is next.
00:52:56 --> 00:53:02 Yeah, that's that's very innovative to to to to make them have that connection
00:53:02 --> 00:53:03 like that, because a lot of students,
00:53:04 --> 00:53:10 you know, when I was in college, it wasn't really accessible or attainable to
00:53:10 --> 00:53:12 do any kind of studying abroad.
00:53:12 --> 00:53:17 Not at the black schools primarily, but at the white schools, you could.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:23 But to target it that way, I think that's very refreshing to know that y'all
00:53:23 --> 00:53:27 are doing that and being that detail-oriented and making that happen.
00:53:28 --> 00:53:33 Why do you see, what do you see, I'm sorry, as the biggest challenge to the
00:53:33 --> 00:53:37 sustainability of these institutions and what can be done to fix that?
00:53:37 --> 00:53:43 You know, funding is huge. You know, HBCUs serve a tremendous purpose in this
00:53:43 --> 00:53:49 country and can be the foundation for success for so many students.
00:53:49 --> 00:53:55 But if they're ill-funded, you know, it kind of reminds me of,
00:53:55 --> 00:53:58 you know, our situation here in Chicago.
00:53:58 --> 00:54:04 And my wife, you know, worked at Chicago Pope Schools for nearly 34 years.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:09 And we would have this conversation. I'd say I do. This was at a school yesterday.
00:54:09 --> 00:54:14 And do y'all invest in those schools? Because, you know, I'm seeing things that
00:54:14 --> 00:54:16 I don't think should be there.
00:54:16 --> 00:54:21 And, you know, one of the reasons why we built and invested in Malcolm X,
00:54:22 --> 00:54:26 the amount of money we did, a quarter of a billion dollars, is we wanted to
00:54:26 --> 00:54:29 not just capture their intellect.
00:54:29 --> 00:54:33 We wanted to capture their mind and their soul.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:38 We wanted them to be proud of the institution they were coming to.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:44 We wanted them to be saying, hey, you see my school? You see where I go to school at?
00:54:45 --> 00:54:52 And it wasn't just the infrastructure, just nice floors and stuff. We have.
00:54:52 --> 00:55:01 Equipment and innovative programs that no one else has in the city of Chicago.
00:55:01 --> 00:55:02 And it's pretty amazing.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:07 And so it gives students an opportunity to do things that they never would have
00:55:07 --> 00:55:12 been able to do before or to operate on systems that they never would have been able to operate in.
00:55:12 --> 00:55:17 We work with the University of Chicago. We work with Northwestern University.
00:55:17 --> 00:55:19 We work with DePaul University.
00:55:19 --> 00:55:22 We work with Loyola. We work with UIC.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:26 We work with all of these institutions on research projects.
00:55:27 --> 00:55:30 And people are like, research problems? At a community college? Absolutely.
00:55:31 --> 00:55:34 Because my students can do anything. There's nothing they can't do.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:44 So I think it's important that your institutions of higher learning like Morehouse
00:55:44 --> 00:55:53 and Clark Atlanta University All of them have the resources to give, you know,
00:55:53 --> 00:56:01 state-of-the-art facilities and opportunities for these students who could be the next, you know,
00:56:02 --> 00:56:07 president of the United States or, you know, they can be whatever they want to be.
00:56:07 --> 00:56:12 I think it's vitally important that we show them that we believe in them by
00:56:12 --> 00:56:14 the investments we make in them.
00:56:15 --> 00:56:21 What are the pros and cons of being a government-funded PBCU?
00:56:22 --> 00:56:31 Well, I think the pros are that there are resources and typically those resources
00:56:31 --> 00:56:36 are pretty static and that they're there.
00:56:37 --> 00:56:44 But that also is a con because, you know, if you're publicly funded as we are
00:56:44 --> 00:56:46 and you have to go back to the taxpayers,
00:56:47 --> 00:56:54 you know, that means that there could be some limitations on the things that you're able to do.
00:56:54 --> 00:56:58 And, you know, you have to be cognizant of that.
00:56:58 --> 00:57:04 And that's not a criticism, you know, John being taxpayer.
00:57:04 --> 00:57:08 It's really the fact that, you know, there's some limitations.
00:57:08 --> 00:57:11 You can't expect people to pay what they don't have.
00:57:12 --> 00:57:17 And so it kind of puts us in a box. what we've done is really kind of focused
00:57:17 --> 00:57:22 on, you know, where can we give resources that's going to help us to achieve our objectives?
00:57:22 --> 00:57:28 Malcolm X is grown to be the number one community college in the city of Chicago, by far, right?
00:57:28 --> 00:57:34 And we have students, you know, that are coming from all segments of our society,
00:57:34 --> 00:57:38 but they're led, believe this or not, by African-American males.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:44 We are, at the last report that I had, which was about a couple of weeks ago,
00:57:44 --> 00:57:48 we were 91% up on African-American male students.
00:57:48 --> 00:57:51 So they're coming in droves to our college.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:57 We got to have resources for that. And so we focus on grants,
00:57:57 --> 00:58:02 philanthropic dollars, and how can we get more dollars into our institution
00:58:02 --> 00:58:05 to provide the resources necessary for our students.
00:58:06 --> 00:58:11 Those include mental health services, student services, food, housing.
00:58:12 --> 00:58:17 We have tutoring services, all of the computers, all of that is necessary.
00:58:17 --> 00:58:22 And, you know, once they get those things and we immerse them in,
00:58:22 --> 00:58:26 you know, the practice and the knowledge base, it helps.
00:58:27 --> 00:58:34 It's like a flower opening up and you see the beauty of these students who are
00:58:34 --> 00:58:35 absolutely wonderful and amazing.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:42 So, you know, we get it, we understand, but it is a challenge. Yeah.
00:58:43 --> 00:58:50 So is it realistic to see alumni building an endowment that minimizes your dependent on government funding?
00:58:50 --> 00:58:55 Oh, yes, we need that. We need alumni from all over the country.
00:58:55 --> 00:58:59 Come on, help us out. You know, if you got millions of dollars,
00:59:00 --> 00:59:02 send it. If you got one dollar, send it.
00:59:02 --> 00:59:06 Whatever it is, because, you know, we invested back in our students and,
00:59:07 --> 00:59:11 you know, I'm very prudent about our management of money. Malcolm X has always
00:59:11 --> 00:59:16 had money, and we continue to have money, and we figure out a way to make things work.
00:59:17 --> 00:59:20 So, you know, I want people to know that we're good stewards.
00:59:20 --> 00:59:27 We don't waste money. I'm a stickler about that. But we also want to invest in the students.
00:59:27 --> 00:59:33 You know, I think people need to understand that when you have a child that's,
00:59:33 --> 00:59:39 That's the hope for tomorrow. My daughter is incredible.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:43 Some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth, I'm like, where does she get all that?
00:59:44 --> 00:59:47 And it's just amazing to watch them.
00:59:47 --> 00:59:52 You know, when I was younger, I had my kids, kids when I was really,
00:59:52 --> 00:59:59 really young, and, you know, you're poor, and so you kind of miss some of these milestones.
00:59:59 --> 01:00:04 These significant markers in their lives where they're changing,
01:00:04 --> 01:00:07 they're transitioning to new places, right?
01:00:07 --> 01:00:13 But, you know, I had my youngest daughter later on in life and I was able to
01:00:13 --> 01:00:20 see all of these different transitions and changes that were magnificent that I was like.
01:00:21 --> 01:00:23 God, I don't know if I did that.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:26 You did that because it's incredible.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:31 Well, all of our students have the ability to do that. All of our kids have that.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:39 And we got to invest in them. We got to give them opportunities and resources and challenge them.
01:00:39 --> 01:00:45 And you can get the best out of them when you present them with opportunities
01:00:45 --> 01:00:46 that they've never had before.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 Yeah. Because the reason why I ask is I was a legislator at one time in Mississippi.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:58 And what really got me into endowments was the fact that I'm voting for the
01:00:58 --> 01:01:02 budget for the University of Mississippi, and they're only getting 30 percent
01:01:02 --> 01:01:06 of their budget from us, from the state.
01:01:06 --> 01:01:10 And then I look at my alma mater, Jackson State, and they were getting 70 percent.
01:01:11 --> 01:01:15 And so I was asking, why is that the difference? And it says based on the endowments.
01:01:15 --> 01:01:18 And so that's when I started paying attention to that.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:25 And I was like going, that seems like that's the key that we need to get to get the alumni.
01:01:25 --> 01:01:28 And, you know, historically, black colleges, predominantly black,
01:01:28 --> 01:01:31 whatever title you want to put on them, black schools, you know,
01:01:32 --> 01:01:36 historically did not produce the majors that generated a lot of wealth.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:41 A lot of them started off as what we call normal schools. So those were teacher colleges.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:45 And, you know, teachers don't make a whole lot of money. And,
01:01:46 --> 01:01:52 you know, so as time has progressed, you know, if we didn't have a school with
01:01:52 --> 01:01:56 a legendary athletic program, right, you know, you're not going to get the athletes
01:01:56 --> 01:01:57 that's making a whole lot of money.
01:01:57 --> 01:02:02 So, you know, now that they're starting to get into medicine and engineering
01:02:02 --> 01:02:06 and all that stuff and becoming more comprehensive, you know,
01:02:07 --> 01:02:08 there are some more opportunities.
01:02:08 --> 01:02:13 But I just wanted to stress that, you know, because it's very,
01:02:13 --> 01:02:20 very important in my mind that that the black schools focus on building those endowments.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:27 Absolutely. And this is the reason why, you know, the wealth gap is so important, right?
01:02:27 --> 01:02:30 Because, you know, you can't give what you don't have.
01:02:31 --> 01:02:35 And, you know, wealth was taken away from African Americans.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:41 So, you know, that is critically important for there to be this right sizing
01:02:41 --> 01:02:44 so that we can have the resources that's necessary.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:49 And they can give back to institutions like Malcolm X that, you know,
01:02:49 --> 01:02:52 is going to drive student growth and development and success,
01:02:52 --> 01:02:55 I think is critical. So I'm with you.
01:02:55 --> 01:02:58 Come on, alumni, bring it on, bring it on.
01:02:58 --> 01:03:04 All right. So what are the unique features and challenges of being,
01:03:04 --> 01:03:11 well, a black college in Chicago as compared to other places?
01:03:11 --> 01:03:14 You know, like I said, I went to Jackson State. So you're down in the South.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:18 Mississippi is the poorest state in the nation. But, you know,
01:03:18 --> 01:03:22 there's there's certain cultural things and unique things.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:26 It's like big football is huge, right? Some of the older black colleges,
01:03:27 --> 01:03:28 that's part of the culture.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:33 But what is it about a school in Chicago? Because Chicago State falls under that, too.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:38 And I guess the other city colleges as well. But what what is it about Chicago
01:03:38 --> 01:03:40 that makes it unique and then also a challenge?
01:03:41 --> 01:03:45 Well, I think there's a couple of things that I would point out.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:50 But first of all, I want to say that we're, yes, we're dedicated to African-American
01:03:50 --> 01:03:54 students and we have, you know, over 40% of our students are African-American.
01:03:55 --> 01:04:00 We also have over 40% of our students are Hispanic and we have about 10%,
01:04:00 --> 01:04:05 close to 10% white and then 6% Asian. So we're very, very diverse.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:11 And each of those groups have different needs So that's a challenge.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:18 And, you know, I think we work very hard to try to meet every need of every
01:04:18 --> 01:04:22 student. It's not to say that we can meet every need.
01:04:23 --> 01:04:27 I'm working on housing right now because I have to kind of farm that out to
01:04:27 --> 01:04:31 the community because I don't have housing on campus. But,
01:04:32 --> 01:04:36 But it is something that we are focused on and that we're trying to provide
01:04:36 --> 01:04:38 for every student to ensure their success.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:43 So that's a challenge. It also is a challenge because, you know,
01:04:43 --> 01:04:46 in the city of Chicago, you know, there's a culture.
01:04:47 --> 01:04:52 And, you know, again, you know, there is resources that are divided,
01:04:52 --> 01:05:00 you know, by the various segments of, you know, our our city, our wards.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:06 And, you know, you got the rich and, or you got the haves and you got the have-nots.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:12 That's a challenge, right? Because you've got a student who really has the ability
01:05:12 --> 01:05:13 to do these great things.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:16 And of course, I talked about this before, but they didn't get the resources
01:05:16 --> 01:05:20 that someone else got. So they have a deficit, right?
01:05:21 --> 01:05:29 So, you know, we worked hard to eliminate perspectives about those students, right?
01:05:29 --> 01:05:34 Because, you know, our faculty and our staff will be like, but president, they're not ready.
01:05:35 --> 01:05:39 And, you know, what I said to them, because, you know, and this,
01:05:39 --> 01:05:44 again, another area where my faith has helped me out, I began to pray about
01:05:44 --> 01:05:49 it and say, what do we need to do to get everybody on the same page?
01:05:49 --> 01:05:54 And I came back to them, I said, what if that was your child? What would you do?
01:05:54 --> 01:05:59 If that was your child, would you advocate for that child?
01:05:59 --> 01:06:03 If that was your child, would you demand that they had X, Y, Z?
01:06:04 --> 01:06:09 If that was your child, would you go every day to ensure they got what they
01:06:09 --> 01:06:10 needed to be successful?
01:06:10 --> 01:06:15 And they said, yes. I said, so if you do it for your child, we got to do it for these children.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:19 So every single children, we've got to provide the resources,
01:06:19 --> 01:06:22 the support that they need in order for them to be successful.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:28 And that's a challenge, right? But it's one I boldly take on and say,
01:06:28 --> 01:06:33 we're going to win because the students are seeing it. They know we believe in them.
01:06:33 --> 01:06:36 And that's why they're coming in droves to Malcolm X.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:44 I mean, our enrollment over the past three years is up nearly 6 students.
01:06:44 --> 01:06:45 I mean, it's just incredible.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:50 But it's because they believe that we believe.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:54 They believe we're going to give them everything necessary for them to be successful.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:56 And we're committed to that.
01:06:56 --> 01:07:02 And so I love the fact that we have these challenges because it just means that,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:07 you know, the God said, you know, he wouldn't put more on us than we can bear.
01:07:07 --> 01:07:10 So he's saying you can bear it and we're going to bear it and we're going to
01:07:10 --> 01:07:13 conquer it and we're going to keep moving forward. Yeah.
01:07:14 --> 01:07:18 All right. So you kind of touched on it a little bit in the beginning,
01:07:18 --> 01:07:24 but what is your biggest concern in this political climate concerning PBCUs?
01:07:25 --> 01:07:31 You know, I think, you know, these lawmakers have lost their minds and they've
01:07:31 --> 01:07:33 lost their way, you know,
01:07:33 --> 01:07:40 to preserve a tax cut for the rich and to take it away from the poor,
01:07:40 --> 01:07:41 to take it away from students,
01:07:41 --> 01:07:51 to take it away from communities and not address the fundamental needs of our people is outrageous.
01:07:51 --> 01:07:55 And we've got to stand up and let our voices be heard.
01:07:56 --> 01:07:59 And you let your voices be heard at the ballot box.
01:07:59 --> 01:08:03 That's the reason why they're willing to do these things because people are
01:08:03 --> 01:08:06 not letting their voices be heard at the ballot box.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:13 When you have only 30%, maybe 38% max, right, who are voting in an election.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:17 African-American people voting in an election,
01:08:17 --> 01:08:24 38% of registered voters Come on guys We got to do better than that We have
01:08:24 --> 01:08:29 to look at our situation and say This is unacceptable And let our voices be
01:08:29 --> 01:08:36 heard And let candidates That are going to fight for us That are going to go to Washington Yes,
01:08:36 --> 01:08:42 I know Illinois is a democratic state But this has got to happen All across the country, right?
01:08:42 --> 01:08:52 And that's when you're going to get change And I, you know, I don't want us to demonize folks.
01:08:53 --> 01:08:57 You know, violence begets violence. That's not the approach.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:02 That's not the way that we need to be doing that. But we do need to have conversations
01:09:02 --> 01:09:11 with folks and let them know that it's unacceptable to take food away from Head Start and, you know,
01:09:11 --> 01:09:13 resources from Head Start programs and stuff.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:19 It's unacceptable to make it difficult for students who are working and part-time
01:09:19 --> 01:09:27 to be able to go to school and have funding for them to complete their educational pursuits.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:34 It's unacceptable to take away resources and supports for families that are
01:09:34 --> 01:09:37 trying to make it living on the edge. It's unacceptable. book.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:43 And, you know, I'll end with this, that, you know, we got to realize that when
01:09:43 --> 01:09:47 you hurt someone, you didn't make yourself better.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:52 You hurt yourself. Because whether you call it karma or reaping and so on,
01:09:53 --> 01:09:55 what you put out is coming back your way.
01:09:55 --> 01:09:59 You're going to get all of that. If you throw out wickedness,
01:09:59 --> 01:10:03 wickedness is coming your way. You throw out evil, evil's coming your way.
01:10:03 --> 01:10:08 If you throw out hatred, hatred's coming your way. So tell me,
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 how do you do these things and think you're going to be better?
01:10:13 --> 01:10:17 It's not going to be better. Yeah. As we say in the South, come on,
01:10:18 --> 01:10:21 lights, because the people ain't saying nothing. Come on, lights.
01:10:21 --> 01:10:22 You got to testify to that.
01:10:23 --> 01:10:26 So let me ask you this real quick. I know that the University of Illinois,
01:10:26 --> 01:10:31 Chicago, they have a board of trustees that people elect since you mentioned voting.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:36 Does the city colleges of Chicago have that same structure or are they appointed
01:10:36 --> 01:10:39 or do they even have a board of trustees for the city colleges?
01:10:39 --> 01:10:44 We have a board of trustees, but they are appointed by the mayor and the city council.
01:10:45 --> 01:10:49 OK, so so the voting message goes to vote for the right mayor and city council
01:10:49 --> 01:10:53 so you can keep people like Dr. Sanders in these jobs.
01:10:55 --> 01:11:00 All right. So give me give me your elevator pitch on why a potential student
01:11:00 --> 01:11:02 should attend Malcolm X College.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:06 Well, because we're committed to you and we believe in you. We believe in your
01:11:06 --> 01:11:09 potential. We believe in your future. we believe in your destiny.
01:11:10 --> 01:11:17 We know you can be successful. We know you can do what no other person can believe in you to do.
01:11:18 --> 01:11:21 We know you can do those things and you were destined to do it.
01:11:22 --> 01:11:24 You were designed to be great.
01:11:25 --> 01:11:29 God put his hands on you. He designed you to be great. So don't give up.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:31 Don't say what you can't do.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:36 Say you can. Come to us. We're going to cultivate you. We're going to motivate
01:11:36 --> 01:11:38 you. We're going to push you along.
01:11:38 --> 01:11:41 We're going to help you along the way. But at the end of the day,
01:11:42 --> 01:11:45 we want you to achieve the greatness that you were born to be.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:49 And we look forward to you coming and reaching your destiny.
01:11:50 --> 01:11:56 All right. So Dr. Sanders, if people want to get in touch with you and learn
01:11:56 --> 01:12:00 more about the college, you know, pick your brain some more, Or how can they do that?
01:12:00 --> 01:12:05 Well, reach out to me at dsanders67 at ccc.edu.
01:12:05 --> 01:12:15 Or you can call us at 312-850-7000. And they will direct you to wherever department you need to go to.
01:12:15 --> 01:12:20 And if for some reason somebody doesn't pick up that phone, you contact me.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:22 And I'm going to figure out why they didn't pick up the phone.
01:12:22 --> 01:12:28 And the number of my office is 312-850-7031. want.
01:12:28 --> 01:12:32 We are committed to everybody in the city of Chicago and beyond,
01:12:32 --> 01:12:35 and we want you to be successful.
01:12:35 --> 01:12:40 Well, Dr. David A. Sanders, thank you so much for taking the time out to be on the podcast.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:45 I commend you for the leadership that you're doing. I did not realize you had been there that long.
01:12:46 --> 01:12:55 I had heard about you about five years ago, and to be able to connect with you and to get you on.
01:12:55 --> 01:12:58 I'm really, really honored that you did that. So thank you for that.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:00 Oh, thank you, sir. I appreciate it.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:03 All right, guys. We'll catch y'all on the other side.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:17 Music.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:19 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank my guests, Dr.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:25 Marybeth Gasman and Dr. David A. Sanders for coming on the program. You know, Dr.
01:13:25 --> 01:13:33 Gasman is an incredible resource as far as the history of black colleges and
01:13:33 --> 01:13:35 universities in the United States.
01:13:35 --> 01:13:39 As she said, she has been to all of them but two.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:44 And I didn't get a chance to really talk to her to find out which two she had not been to.
01:13:44 --> 01:13:53 But, you know, somebody who is not from the African-American community to not
01:13:53 --> 01:13:55 only make it her life's work,
01:13:55 --> 01:14:04 but her passion to explain the relevance and the significance and the importance of black colleges.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:09 It's one thing for those of us who are alumni to tout them.
01:14:09 --> 01:14:15 That's kind of our job, whether we do it vocally like I'm doing now or just
01:14:15 --> 01:14:19 by our actions and our levels of success. Right.
01:14:20 --> 01:14:25 So to have somebody outside of the community to be as dedicated and passionate
01:14:25 --> 01:14:28 about it is really, really amazing.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:34 And I'm really, really honored that she came on to share some of that passion with you all.
01:14:34 --> 01:14:38 And then, of course, to have somebody in the trenches like Dr. David A. Sanders.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:43 Now, if you listen to the intro, you realize that he hasn't officially got his
01:14:43 --> 01:14:47 doctorate yet, but, you know, he's a man of faith and so am I,
01:14:47 --> 01:14:49 so we're speaking it into existence.
01:14:51 --> 01:14:54 So I'm calling him Dr. Sanders from this point forward, but,
01:14:54 --> 01:15:03 you know, Malcolm X College, has, you know, existed, you know, throughout my life.
01:15:03 --> 01:15:08 And the reason why we use the term predominantly Black as opposed to historically
01:15:08 --> 01:15:12 Black for Malcolm X College is Malcolm X College actually started out,
01:15:12 --> 01:15:16 if those of you from Chicago, you remember Crane High School.
01:15:16 --> 01:15:22 Well, Malcolm X College was really a junior college extension of Crane High
01:15:22 --> 01:15:27 School, right, to try to guarantee success for those high school students that
01:15:27 --> 01:15:30 went there, at least they could stay in.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:34 If they couldn't get accepted to a college or couldn't afford it, they could stay.
01:15:34 --> 01:15:39 And then over time, you know, as the West side evolved.
01:15:40 --> 01:15:45 You know, it became Malcolm X College, and it's a part of the city colleges
01:15:45 --> 01:15:49 system in Chicago, which is, I think.
01:15:50 --> 01:15:54 One of the largest as far as enrollment goes or second largest,
01:15:54 --> 01:15:57 I'm sorry, behind, you know, California as far as enrollment,
01:15:58 --> 01:16:00 as far as community colleges go.
01:16:00 --> 01:16:04 I think it's second. It might have dropped down some, but it's one of the bigger
01:16:04 --> 01:16:08 community college networks in the country.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:13 And it's something that the city has been doing all my life.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:20 And so, you know, to actually get somebody who is a part of that system,
01:16:20 --> 01:16:25 but not only that, it's somebody that's dedicated to uplifting young black men and women,
01:16:26 --> 01:16:30 to get a foundation at an institution of higher learning.
01:16:31 --> 01:16:33 Like I said, it's a community college, so it's only a two-year degree,
01:16:34 --> 01:16:37 an associate's degree, but, you know, it opens the door.
01:16:37 --> 01:16:41 And as he stated in an interview, he's got connections with other four-year
01:16:41 --> 01:16:48 institutions, and that gives those students a foot in the door, but it also gives them,
01:16:48 --> 01:16:52 the community colleges gives them skills where it's like, you know,
01:16:53 --> 01:16:57 they can go right out the door and get a job, right? Right.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:02 Because in this day and age, you know, whether you're you have a high school
01:17:02 --> 01:17:06 diploma, whether you have an associate's degree, whether you have a bachelor's
01:17:06 --> 01:17:10 degree, when you make that decision, I want to get into the workforce.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:15 You're hoping that the education that you have received to that point will get
01:17:15 --> 01:17:18 you the job that you want or at least get your foot in the door.
01:17:19 --> 01:17:26 So that you can have some comfort and start building wealth until you get the
01:17:26 --> 01:17:29 job that you want, right? Because that's the key.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:33 In the Black community, it's about building wealth. And that's one of the challenges
01:17:33 --> 01:17:37 that these Black colleges and universities has is that historically,
01:17:37 --> 01:17:43 these schools were designed for positions that don't generate a whole lot of wealth.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:50 And so there's a disparity between the historically black colleges and universities
01:17:50 --> 01:17:56 and endowments compared to the predominantly white or historically white institutions, right?
01:17:57 --> 01:18:01 I think Dr. Gasman used majority institutions.
01:18:01 --> 01:18:06 Either way, it's always been a challenge.
01:18:07 --> 01:18:14 But these schools have survived. My institution was a private school,
01:18:15 --> 01:18:17 Jackson State. It was a private school at one point.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:22 And then right around, I think it was around the Great Depression.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:27 It may have been, you know, I think it weathered that storm.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:33 But right around the start of World War II, I believe, that's when Jackson State
01:18:33 --> 01:18:35 became a state institution.
01:18:35 --> 01:18:40 And that was a decision that had to be made. There was a president there,
01:18:40 --> 01:18:43 I think his name was Jacob Reddix, who made that call.
01:18:43 --> 01:18:47 And Jackson State has been part of the institutions of higher learning in the
01:18:47 --> 01:18:48 state of Mississippi ever since.
01:18:49 --> 01:18:53 And so, you know, there's a challenge with that, right? There's a challenge
01:18:53 --> 01:18:59 as far as making sure that the state provides money for the school to do what it needs to do.
01:19:00 --> 01:19:07 As Dr. Gasman mentioned and President Sanders reiterated, a lot of the income is tuition based.
01:19:08 --> 01:19:14 Which, you know, puts a heavy burden on those institutions to try to stay affordable,
01:19:14 --> 01:19:20 but yet maintain the quality of education needed so that the young men and women
01:19:20 --> 01:19:25 that show up there can get a foot in the door, right?
01:19:25 --> 01:19:28 Whether it's to work for somebody or to work for themselves.
01:19:28 --> 01:19:34 And so, you know, it's just all part of this big picture.
01:19:34 --> 01:19:36 And, you know, there was a number
01:19:36 --> 01:19:41 of things, you know, when I talked about last week about the budget,
01:19:41 --> 01:19:48 right, that we were talking about the, for example, the tax on overtime pay.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:50 I need to make a correction on that.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:56 There is a gap. There is a cutoff of $150 for both of them,
01:19:56 --> 01:20:02 right, the tax on tips and the tax on tax exemption on tips and tax exemption
01:20:02 --> 01:20:06 on overtime pay. $150 to cut off for both of them.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:13 I was right about the tips, which is $25 was the cutoff.
01:20:13 --> 01:20:21 But the cutoff for overtime pay is half of that. So $12.
01:20:21 --> 01:20:28 So if you make over $12 in overtime, then anything over that you have to pay taxes on.
01:20:28 --> 01:20:34 And then that does sunset on 2028.
01:20:34 --> 01:20:41 So, you know, you got about three years of that, give or take,
01:20:41 --> 01:20:43 maybe two and a half, be honest.
01:20:43 --> 01:20:46 But yeah, so I wanted to get that out,
01:20:47 --> 01:20:50 you know, a correction, but it ties in And what I'm saying is that,
01:20:50 --> 01:20:58 you know, a lot of folks are working jobs that have attended these historical
01:20:58 --> 01:21:04 and predominantly black institutions that, you know, they while they're in school.
01:21:04 --> 01:21:09 Right. They might work a job where they rely on tips or, you know,
01:21:09 --> 01:21:11 they might need overtime or whatever.
01:21:13 --> 01:21:20 So, you know, but those jobs don't pay the kind of money that would lead to
01:21:20 --> 01:21:24 folks building the endowments of the institutions they went to.
01:21:26 --> 01:21:32 So, you know, the key is to build black wealth.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:38 Because building black wealth has a domino effect, right?
01:21:38 --> 01:21:45 That in the black community, the more wealth we gain, the more support our institutions
01:21:45 --> 01:21:51 of higher learning will have, the more support other organizations in the community will have,
01:21:52 --> 01:21:54 churches, what have you, everything.
01:21:55 --> 01:22:02 Black businesses, all that stuff. So, you know, that's where we are.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:07 And that's that's our political journey at this point. That's where we're trying to get to.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:13 So I'm really glad that those two individuals came on to talk about that and
01:22:13 --> 01:22:18 just to continue to accentuate the fact that we need to have these institutions
01:22:18 --> 01:22:25 viable so that we can attain our goal in building wealth in the black community.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:31 Now, it's going to be hard with the mindset of the people that's affiliated
01:22:31 --> 01:22:38 with the Republican Party as it is constituted now, because they really don't even want us here,
01:22:38 --> 01:22:41 let alone assist us in building wealth.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:46 And this bill, which I did not mention last week, is the biggest transfer of
01:22:46 --> 01:22:53 wealth from poor to rich in the history of this nation.
01:22:53 --> 01:23:03 Even in the Gilded Age, there wasn't a piece of legislation that altered wealth like this bill did.
01:23:04 --> 01:23:11 And, you know, you're going to give the wealthiest people tax breaks and then
01:23:11 --> 01:23:14 cut services for people that are in need.
01:23:16 --> 01:23:21 All that translates into a shift of wealth, right?
01:23:21 --> 01:23:26 And, you know, people have criticized those of us on the Democratic side of
01:23:26 --> 01:23:31 the aisle and saying, oh, you want to transfer wealth, oh, you want to share
01:23:31 --> 01:23:33 wealth, and blah, blah, this and the other.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:37 Well, it's pretty obvious that the other side doesn't want to do it.
01:23:37 --> 01:23:40 As a matter of fact, they want to make the wealth gap bigger.
01:23:41 --> 01:23:46 And in cities like Atlanta, where I'm residing now, that's a terrible thing
01:23:46 --> 01:23:53 because Atlanta has the largest wealth gap of any city in the nation, believe it or not.
01:23:53 --> 01:23:58 And so, you know, in cities like Chicago and cities like New York and cities
01:23:58 --> 01:24:06 like Washington and cities like L.A., Houston, whatever, that's not a good thing to widen the gap.
01:24:06 --> 01:24:11 If anything, you want to close the gap. That's what we need to get to.
01:24:11 --> 01:24:17 Now, again, I'm not against capitalism, but I want capitalism done right.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:23 If every nation, industrialized nation in the world has universal health care,
01:24:23 --> 01:24:25 why not the wealthiest one, right?
01:24:26 --> 01:24:31 Why are we making people pay to live?
01:24:32 --> 01:24:36 I mean, let's just break it down. We're making people pay to live.
01:24:37 --> 01:24:41 You got to pay to go to the doctor, even if you're just doing your annual physical.
01:24:41 --> 01:24:45 You got to pay for it. When you go to your eye exam, you got to pay for that.
01:24:45 --> 01:24:50 When you go to, you know, the dentist, you got to pay for that.
01:24:50 --> 01:24:56 In other countries, you don't have to do that. That's one less thing you have to worry about, right?
01:24:57 --> 01:25:00 Why is that a crazy concept?
01:25:01 --> 01:25:05 It's because we do capitalism wrong in the United States. That's why.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:09 Nobody is saying we don't want folks to make money.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:13 But at the same time, we don't want to be greedy.
01:25:14 --> 01:25:17 Well, most of us don't want to be greedy. There's some people that do.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:22 And they seem to have a political party that caters to that, right?
01:25:22 --> 01:25:30 They want to stoke up fears amongst poor people to guarantee that they get elected
01:25:30 --> 01:25:32 to cater to the rich people.
01:25:33 --> 01:25:38 That's not right. I would say evil. I know a lot of people don't like to do
01:25:38 --> 01:25:48 that, but that's antithetical to the Christian teaching that you claim drives your politics.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:53 You know, I've literally heard politicians say, well, I make this decision based on the Bible.
01:25:54 --> 01:26:03 Well, how can you say that when your political philosophy is to make the wealthy wealthier?
01:26:04 --> 01:26:09 There's nothing in the Bible that says that. Nothing. It's, as a matter of fact, the opposite.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:13 It's to take care of those who need assistance.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:20 And the key word is assistance, because if you help me, then once I can get
01:26:20 --> 01:26:22 to a level where I can sustain myself.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:27 Most people that are on assistance don't want to be on it. I know there's some
01:26:27 --> 01:26:30 people that's like, well, you know, there's been a culture and all that stuff.
01:26:31 --> 01:26:36 There are folks in Mississippi I knew that refused to get on assistance that
01:26:36 --> 01:26:40 would qualify for it because they were too proud to ask for that kind of help.
01:26:41 --> 01:26:45 They said, well, we're going to do the best we can. And I'm not just talking
01:26:45 --> 01:26:48 about the poor white folks. I'm talking about black folks. They didn't want that assistance.
01:26:50 --> 01:26:53 But we wanted it to be there for them if they changed their mind,
01:26:53 --> 01:26:56 if they did need that hand up, right?
01:26:56 --> 01:27:04 But to systematically take it away, because you have this incredible misguided
01:27:04 --> 01:27:09 notion that people that ask for government assistance are lazy people, right?
01:27:10 --> 01:27:17 The whole culture of African Americans in this nation is the fact that you brought us here to work.
01:27:17 --> 01:27:23 That's all we've been doing. We built a nation, literally, right?
01:27:25 --> 01:27:28 You know, the Latino community, right?
01:27:29 --> 01:27:35 Those people that are immigrating, they're not immigrating just to vacation. They're working.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:41 If you don't believe me, ask the folks in the agriculture industry in California
01:27:41 --> 01:27:43 and Florida and see how that's working out for them.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:49 Now that you've created this aura of fear that you don't want these people to
01:27:49 --> 01:27:55 be here, right? And there's agricultural products that are rotting, right?
01:27:56 --> 01:28:00 The excess food that we had, we were giving to other countries,
01:28:00 --> 01:28:04 but you shut down the program that allowed that food to leave,
01:28:04 --> 01:28:07 again, hurting the agricultural community, right?
01:28:08 --> 01:28:16 So, you know, I mean, every group of people that have come to the United States
01:28:16 --> 01:28:18 has contributed to the growth of the United States.
01:28:19 --> 01:28:23 Everyone. If you want to break it down as far as whether the English do,
01:28:24 --> 01:28:27 whether the Irish do, whether the Dutch do, whether the Germans do,
01:28:27 --> 01:28:32 you can break it all down by country,
01:28:32 --> 01:28:36 by race classification, however you want to do it, ethnicity, whatever.
01:28:37 --> 01:28:43 Everybody has contributed. And there are some folks that even if they work every
01:28:43 --> 01:28:45 day, they need some help.
01:28:45 --> 01:28:52 And we've got a political party that will scare the hell out of them, but won't help them.
01:28:52 --> 01:28:56 And then we've got the other political party, which I'm affiliated with,
01:28:56 --> 01:29:02 that seems to scare the hell out of them because we're coming up with these new ideas.
01:29:02 --> 01:29:10 But because they've been taught to fear new ideas, they're scared of the Democrats, too, right?
01:29:11 --> 01:29:17 See, that's why fear doesn't work. Our inherent nature is to not be fearful.
01:29:17 --> 01:29:20 We're supposed to be independent. We're supposed to be fierce.
01:29:20 --> 01:29:22 We're supposed to be strong. We're supposed to be forward-thinking.
01:29:23 --> 01:29:30 We're supposed to be hopeful. And fear, even though instinctually it guides
01:29:30 --> 01:29:37 us, okay, we shouldn't go into that dark alley or we shouldn't jump out of an airplane, right?
01:29:39 --> 01:29:45 It can be paralyzing as well. That's where you talk about phobias, right?
01:29:45 --> 01:29:49 But we shouldn't have a phobia about politics.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:57 We shouldn't have a phobia about new ideas to benefit people, right?
01:29:57 --> 01:30:04 And as long as we have a Democratic Republic government where we can vote and
01:30:04 --> 01:30:06 we can select people to handle the business,
01:30:07 --> 01:30:12 you know, if things don't go the way we envisioned, then we can start over.
01:30:13 --> 01:30:17 And we got to do it in a timely way so it won't do any major permanent damage.
01:30:18 --> 01:30:21 But, you know, we can try it and see what happens.
01:30:21 --> 01:30:25 But a lot of times when we do have a good idea, we just go with it.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:31 And then even if it needs correcting, we just let it ride because a lot of people
01:30:31 --> 01:30:36 base their political fate on pushing a certain program.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:45 I say all that to say we need to be engaged and we need to pay attention and we need to be.
01:30:45 --> 01:30:51 If we are going to be monolithic in thought, then we should be monolithic in
01:30:51 --> 01:30:57 the fact that every American deserves a chance to live and live abundantly.
01:30:58 --> 01:31:03 Right. And abundance doesn't mean everybody in America should be a billionaire.
01:31:04 --> 01:31:08 Right. Because to be honest, you know, if you reach billionaire status,
01:31:09 --> 01:31:13 you'll never spend all that money in your life, no matter how hard you try.
01:31:15 --> 01:31:19 So, you know, that's not the goal for everybody.
01:31:19 --> 01:31:24 The goal for everybody is to live the life they want to live and live it comfortably,
01:31:24 --> 01:31:28 whether that means having X amount of children, whether that means living in
01:31:28 --> 01:31:32 a certain community, whether that means being able to travel,
01:31:32 --> 01:31:36 go to sporting events, movie, whatever, whatever.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:43 People ought to feel comfortable enough to do that and not the reverse where
01:31:43 --> 01:31:48 people are making decisions whether I'm going to pay for my medicine or pay for my food.
01:31:49 --> 01:31:55 You should be able to do both. And in a real successful capitalistic society,
01:31:56 --> 01:32:01 paying for the health care shouldn't be even on the table. That should be a given.
01:32:01 --> 01:32:07 Education should be a given, right? Now, if you want to pay to go to Harvard
01:32:07 --> 01:32:11 and you want to pay to go to Yale and a private institution, that's on you.
01:32:12 --> 01:32:17 But if the state is going to provide you an education, then it should be for
01:32:17 --> 01:32:21 free and it should be funded as such. Right?
01:32:23 --> 01:32:29 Because my thought is if people are educated and people have the skill set to
01:32:29 --> 01:32:34 make their own money or be a viable asset to work for somebody,
01:32:35 --> 01:32:40 the less people you're going to need to give assistance to. Right?
01:32:41 --> 01:32:46 But if you tell people where you got to pick themselves up by their own bootstraps
01:32:46 --> 01:32:51 and then they're able to finally get a pair of boots and then you create policies
01:32:51 --> 01:32:54 to either take the boots or outlaw the boots,
01:32:55 --> 01:32:58 right, then that doesn't make any sense.
01:32:58 --> 01:33:03 Or if you create laws to deny that opportunity to get the boots.
01:33:04 --> 01:33:10 That doesn't make any sense, right? So if we want an America where everybody
01:33:10 --> 01:33:15 has a place to live, food, clothing,
01:33:16 --> 01:33:23 right, the basic needs, right, the Maslovian needs, then government should be
01:33:23 --> 01:33:25 working toward making that happen.
01:33:25 --> 01:33:28 Nobody that's ever served in the military should be homeless,
01:33:29 --> 01:33:32 right? That doesn't make any sense.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:36 People that are in law enforcement, people that are in public service, right?
01:33:37 --> 01:33:41 Firemen, teachers, they shouldn't be homeless, right?
01:33:42 --> 01:33:48 I'm just saying, it just doesn't make sense for us to be the wealthiest nation
01:33:48 --> 01:33:50 in the world and we have people that don't have a place to live.
01:33:52 --> 01:33:57 And are making decisions about food or health care.
01:33:58 --> 01:34:03 I'm not saying food should be free. Now, I'm not going there with that because
01:34:03 --> 01:34:08 the people that grow the food need to get paid for what they do.
01:34:08 --> 01:34:13 And how the capitalist machine works at that particular point, that's fine.
01:34:14 --> 01:34:17 But, you know, people like in the healthcare industry, they're saying,
01:34:17 --> 01:34:20 well, you know, these doctors and all that.
01:34:20 --> 01:34:26 The doctors in England are driving Mercedes-Benz and Porsches and living in.
01:34:26 --> 01:34:33 And if you've seen the property value in London, those doctors are getting paid good.
01:34:34 --> 01:34:37 And health care is provided to every citizen.
01:34:38 --> 01:34:42 It's government run. Those doctors are not struggling.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:51 Telling you, you don't believe it, just Zillow, Sotheby's, whatever real estate
01:34:51 --> 01:34:55 thing you want to look at, just look up London and look at how much the property value is there.
01:34:56 --> 01:34:59 It rivals or even surpasses New York and California.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:07 But those doctors are part of a system of universal health care, and they're doing okay.
01:35:07 --> 01:35:13 So why would you think that the doctors, the dentists, and ophthalmologists,
01:35:13 --> 01:35:19 and all these other medical professions wouldn't be okay if we had universal health care here?
01:35:20 --> 01:35:24 In Mexico, Canada and Mexico have universal health care.
01:35:25 --> 01:35:30 In Mexico, they have unions for the doctors and the nurses and all that,
01:35:30 --> 01:35:36 just like we have unions for the plumbers and the boilermakers and the teamsters,
01:35:37 --> 01:35:38 the truck drivers, right?
01:35:38 --> 01:35:42 They have unions for doctors and nurses in Mexico, right?
01:35:43 --> 01:35:50 Their issue in Mexico is if they don't have the United States as a valid trade
01:35:50 --> 01:35:53 partner, as an honest broker, jobs are going to be scarce.
01:35:53 --> 01:36:00 If there's no agricultural aid to make sure that those farm workers have something
01:36:00 --> 01:36:03 to do in their home country, then they're going to leave, right?
01:36:03 --> 01:36:07 And a lot of them are not Mexican, even though initially they were.
01:36:07 --> 01:36:11 A lot of them come from other Latin American countries.
01:36:12 --> 01:36:17 They come through Mexico to get to the United States, but they're not from Mexico, right?
01:36:18 --> 01:36:23 And now that you've cut off USAID, guess what? These people are going to try
01:36:23 --> 01:36:25 to figure out to get here.
01:36:25 --> 01:36:30 Now, you can try to scare them and round them up and get proud boys and bounty
01:36:30 --> 01:36:34 hunters and all these other stuff to act like ice agents to deter them.
01:36:34 --> 01:36:41 But if the economic conditions don't improve, if we don't do our soft diplomacy
01:36:41 --> 01:36:47 and use our technical expertise to help those folks develop in their own countries.
01:36:48 --> 01:36:52 They're going to come here because we're one of the, we're the wealthiest nation
01:36:52 --> 01:36:56 on the planet and we're accessible to them.
01:36:56 --> 01:37:02 If they were closer to Europe, they'd be all in Europe, but they're accessible to the United States.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:09 So why not come here, right? If we're not going to help them with our wealth,
01:37:09 --> 01:37:11 with our talent, with our expertise,
01:37:11 --> 01:37:16 if we're not going to help them build up their own country so they could stay
01:37:16 --> 01:37:22 and build wealth and build a nation that's self-sustaining,
01:37:23 --> 01:37:28 then, yeah, those people are going to go where the money is. And that's here.
01:37:28 --> 01:37:32 Now, it's probably not a whole lot of people trying to come because they're
01:37:32 --> 01:37:35 trying to weigh out how crazy this thing is going to be.
01:37:36 --> 01:37:44 And you're having a problem now where there's Americans wanting to leave themselves
01:37:44 --> 01:37:49 because they don't see the opportunities that are supposed to be here, right?
01:37:50 --> 01:37:56 Because you want to pass policies and spew rhetoric and all that stuff to discourage
01:37:56 --> 01:38:04 people, to dishearten people, and then to terrorize people to be fearful of each other, right?
01:38:06 --> 01:38:10 The United States of America has always been a land of opportunity,
01:38:10 --> 01:38:15 and we have to do right by everybody,
01:38:15 --> 01:38:23 even the, or even more so, the first citizens of this nation, the natives, right?
01:38:25 --> 01:38:31 Everybody deserves an opportunity to live and live abundantly again.
01:38:31 --> 01:38:37 So we have to elect people that understand that, to understand the value of
01:38:37 --> 01:38:40 the historically and predominantly black colleges and universities,
01:38:40 --> 01:38:44 understand the value of the Native American community, understand the value
01:38:44 --> 01:38:46 of the Latino community,
01:38:46 --> 01:38:51 the Asian American Pacific Islander community, and yes, the white community.
01:38:52 --> 01:38:57 Because this whole replacement theory, that's straight BS.
01:38:57 --> 01:39:06 Nobody is trying to replace anybody. All anybody wants to do is to be left alone, right?
01:39:07 --> 01:39:13 The ultimate goal of every American is to be left alone, to live the life they want to live, period.
01:39:13 --> 01:39:18 And if we don't elect people that understand that fundamental concept,
01:39:19 --> 01:39:22 then we're going to continue to have this internal conflict.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:27 We've got to get in that mindset. Leave black folks alone.
01:39:27 --> 01:39:34 Leave Latino folks alone. Let them live their lives Let them thrive Let them thrive,
01:39:35 --> 01:39:46 Do right by them And I promise you This nation will hold up For another 250 years I promise you that,
01:39:47 --> 01:39:52 Alright guys, I gotta go But again, you know Please subscribe on patreon.com
01:39:52 --> 01:39:59 Slash I'm Eric Fleming Keep listening Thank you for listening and until next time.
01:40:02 --> 01:40:47 Music.