In this episode, David Daley, author of AntiDemocratic, explains to the listeners how we arrived in the current political environment we are dealing with. Then, Jeanné Lewis, CEO of Faith In Public Life, explains to the listeners how we can navigate through that political environment.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:24 Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:41 Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:51 Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:56 Tell someone else about the podcast encourage others to listen to the podcast
00:00:56 --> 00:01:02 and share the podcast on your social media platforms because it is time to make
00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 i hope you enjoy this episode as well,
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:56 Music.
00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 And welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:03 --> 00:02:09 All right, so I hope that all y'all listening had a nice Valentine's Day.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:12 I hope you made it a whole weekend.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:19 And, you know, even though we don't have a whole lot of love,
00:02:22 --> 00:02:25 coming out of Washington, D.C.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:32 At this point, I hope that you and your significant other had a good Valentine's
00:02:32 --> 00:02:33 weekend, regardless of that.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:41 And those of you who are celebrating Black History Month, I hope that if you
00:02:41 --> 00:02:44 haven't had your event yet, I hope that it's successful.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:49 If you've had your event, I hope that it was well attended and people gained something from it.
00:02:49 --> 00:03:00 And for my friends out there in Jackson and here in Atlanta and Chicago and
00:03:00 --> 00:03:02 everywhere else in the country,
00:03:02 --> 00:03:05 I've been given opportunities to speak or participate.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:13 I hope that you've had an enriching and enlightening experience in doing that.
00:03:14 --> 00:03:18 Because despite what other people say, it's important.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:29 It's important that in a country that is diverse, that we respect each other's cultures.
00:03:30 --> 00:03:37 And, you know, some people just don't get that, but we're going to continue to work on that.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:43 And speaking about working on it, I have two people coming on today who,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:49 in their own way, are addressing the issues and trying to inform people about
00:03:49 --> 00:03:55 what's going on and even to an extent how they can fix what's going on.
00:03:55 --> 00:04:05 You know, one of them is is a journalist and has dedicated his life to not only
00:04:05 --> 00:04:08 seeking the truth, but presenting it.
00:04:08 --> 00:04:13 And it's really was an honor to get him on.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:20 And then I have a return guest coming back who's been an activist in the community,
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 especially in the faith community,
00:04:22 --> 00:04:28 trying to address a lot of the issues that that we're dealing with now and have
00:04:28 --> 00:04:30 been dealing with in the past.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:38 And I just felt like I needed her to come back on in light of where we are.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 So I hope that you enjoy these guests as well.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:48 And as always, I enjoy the conversations on and off the air.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:56 But I really think that y'all will appreciate the conversations that we had that you can hear.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 All right. So enough me for right now.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 It's time to go ahead and keep this program off. And as always,
00:05:04 --> 00:05:08 we started off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:15 Music.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:20 Thanks erik federal prosecutors in an unprecedented move dropped corruption
00:05:20 --> 00:05:26 charges against new york mayor eric adams the family of sonia massey a black
00:05:26 --> 00:05:31 woman fatally shot by police in illinois will receive 10 million dollars in a settlement,
00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 Tulsi Gabbard, a former U.S. representative with limited intelligence experience,
00:05:37 --> 00:05:40 was confirmed as the Director of National Intelligence.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:45 Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a vaccine critic, was also confirmed as the Secretary
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 for Health and Human Services.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:52 U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi sued New York state officials over failures
00:05:52 --> 00:05:54 in immigration enforcement.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:59 A U.S. judge allowed the Trump administration to proceed with a buyout program
00:05:59 --> 00:06:03 for federal workers. President Trump signed an order to cut U.S.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:09 Aid to South Africa over its recent farmland policies A federal judge temporarily
00:06:09 --> 00:06:14 blocked the Trump administration from accessing government payment systems Russia
00:06:14 --> 00:06:17 released American teacher Mark Fogel after U.S.
00:06:18 --> 00:06:25 Envoy Steve Witkoff's surprise visit to Moscow A judge temporarily reinstated around 2 U.S.
00:06:25 --> 00:06:30 Aid employees put on leave by the Trump administration Authorities recovered
00:06:30 --> 00:06:36 all 10 victims from a Cessna plane crash in the Bering Sea off the Alaskan coast The U.S.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 Military will ban transgender individuals from enlisting and cease gender transition
00:06:41 --> 00:06:46 procedures for service members International Criminal Court Prosecutor Kareem
00:06:46 --> 00:06:49 Khan is the first individual sanctioned by the U.S.
00:06:50 --> 00:06:54 Under Trump's order targeting the tribunal over investigations involving U.S.
00:06:54 --> 00:07:00 Citizens or allies A federal judge denied a request to block Elon Musk's DOGE
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 from accessing Labor Department systems.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:09 Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon pled guilty to fraud in a New York court over
00:07:09 --> 00:07:11 a fundraising scheme for the border wall.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:17 And Sam Nujoma, Namibia's first democratically elected president and a key leader
00:07:17 --> 00:07:20 in its independence, passed away at the age of 95.
00:07:21 --> 00:07:25 I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:31 Music.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:35 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:40 And now it's time for my first guest, David Daley.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:46 David Daley is the author of the new book, Anti-Democratic, Inside the Rights
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 50-Year Plot to Control American Elections.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:56 He is also the author of the national bestseller, Rat F'd, Why Your Vote Doesn't
00:07:56 --> 00:08:01 Count, which has been credited for kickstarting the national drive to end gerrymandering.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:05 His journalism has appeared in The New Yorker, The New York Times,
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 and The Atlantic, among other publications.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:13 He is a former editor-in-chief of Salon, a senior fellow at FairVote,
00:08:13 --> 00:08:19 and has taught political science in journalism at Wesleyan, Boston College,
00:08:19 --> 00:08:22 Smith College, and the University of Georgia.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:26 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:08:26 --> 00:08:30 on this podcast, David Daley.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:41 Music.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:44 All right. David Daly, how are you doing, sir? You doing good?
00:08:45 --> 00:08:49 I'm good. Thanks for having me on, Erik. Well, it's really an honor for me to
00:08:49 --> 00:08:54 have you on, and I know that you're a busy guy, so let's go ahead and get this thing started.
00:08:54 --> 00:08:57 I do a couple of things to kind of break the ice.
00:08:58 --> 00:09:05 So the first thing is I give you a quote, and this is the quote.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:10 It says, throwing out preclearance when it is continuing to work is like throwing
00:09:10 --> 00:09:15 away your umbrella in a rainstorm because you are not getting wet.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:22 Give me your response to that quote. Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Shelby County dissent
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 more than a decade ago, and boy, was she ever right.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:33 Preclearance was the most effective enforcement arm of the Voting Rights Act,
00:09:33 --> 00:09:36 and the minute that john roberts and the u.s supreme
00:09:36 --> 00:09:46 court took it away what we have seen is 12 years now of voter suppression tactics
00:09:46 --> 00:09:55 across the formerly covered states that roberts and his crew could be so blind,
00:09:55 --> 00:10:05 that they could be so absolutely clueless and ignorant of the actual historic record,
00:10:05 --> 00:10:10 of the actual need for preclearance, of the importance of the Voting Rights
00:10:10 --> 00:10:12 Act in creating a multiracial democracy.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:19 What it speaks to is the fact that they don't actually believe in any of those things.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:25 And it's not that they ignored Ginsburg's warning.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 It's that they had no interest at all in listening to it because they wanted
00:10:29 --> 00:10:32 a very different country. They've gotten it.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:39 Yeah. So the next iceberg I have is a thing called 20 questions.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:46 So what I need you to do is to give me a number between 1 and 20?
00:10:46 --> 00:10:51 17. All right. That's actually a pretty popular number. All right.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:58 What's something about people who see the world differently than you that you've come to appreciate?
00:10:59 --> 00:11:01 That's a great question. Yeah.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:08 I think it's difficult in these times sometimes to appreciate other people who
00:11:08 --> 00:11:10 see the world differently.
00:11:11 --> 00:11:20 I have spent a lot of time in these books trying to talk to and understand where
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 folks are coming from, even though they don't necessarily agree with me.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:28 I spend a lot of time in anti-democratic speaking with Edward Bloom.
00:11:28 --> 00:11:37 The lawyer who brought the Shelby County case, who has been crucial in doing
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 away with so much of the affirmative action.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:47 I think that sometimes we ascribe evil mastermind to people who we disagree with,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:55 and sometimes they're doing the best they can to advance causes that they genuinely believe in.
00:11:55 --> 00:12:01 I mean, I think someone like Bloom genuinely believes what he says,
00:12:01 --> 00:12:09 genuinely believes that he's working towards the kind of nation that he thinks
00:12:09 --> 00:12:11 comes out of the civil rights movement.
00:12:11 --> 00:12:14 He's just fundamentally wrong
00:12:14 --> 00:12:18 and i think has blind spots but i
00:12:18 --> 00:12:21 i do think that there are some folks
00:12:21 --> 00:12:35 who certainly are working to advance ideals as best they can yeah i i i feel
00:12:35 --> 00:12:39 you You know, and it's like, I was like, wow,
00:12:39 --> 00:12:43 he got to talk to Edward Bloom. I don't know how calm I would have been.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:46 I mean, you know, but I'm not a professional journalist, so,
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 you know what I'm saying?
00:12:49 --> 00:12:52 But I appreciate that answer.
00:12:53 --> 00:12:59 We got, you know, I mean, Bloom is a fascinating figure, and I think one of
00:12:59 --> 00:13:03 the most consequential figures of the last 25 years.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:08 And he welcomed me into his home in Maine and made me soup for lunch.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:15 And we sat around and he answered all of my questions. And we got into a pretty
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 good, if friendly, debate.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:24 I've got a 5-word transcript of that if someone wants to publish our back and forth someday.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:32 That didn't make the book, unfortunately. But what I think is really interesting is,
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 especially when we're talking about the Shelby County case,
00:13:36 --> 00:13:45 the Shelby County case emerges from a deeply flawed and illegal redistricting
00:13:45 --> 00:13:50 in a small town in Alabama called Calera. And.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:56 Calera, Alabama, had just elected its second black counselor in the history
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 of this town. And what did they do?
00:13:59 --> 00:14:04 They immediately moved to redistrict, and they turned this man's seat inside
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 out. It went from 70% black to 71% white.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 He lost the next election by two votes.
00:14:11 --> 00:14:14 Calera did not pre-clear those districts.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:20 They did not pre-clear any of the annexations that made a redistricting necessary in that town.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:25 It is a classic example of why the Voting Rights Act is still necessary,
00:14:25 --> 00:14:28 because it was so often being ignored.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:34 And this stuff was happening not in 1958, but in 2007.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:41 And for Bloom and the people who he worked with on this case,
00:14:41 --> 00:14:43 it was just an opportunity.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 And when you explain the facts of what had happened in Calera,
00:14:47 --> 00:14:50 you get a lot of, I didn't know that.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:53 Oh, really? Is that the case?
00:14:55 --> 00:15:02 Because Calera had a lot of problems. That whole region in Shelby County had a lot of problems.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:08 There was a very similar case in Alabaster, Alabama, the town up the road just
00:15:08 --> 00:15:09 a couple of years earlier.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:17 And the ignorance of the facts on the ground can be astonishing.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:23 And you didn't tell me that you have the powers of clairvoyance and all that
00:15:23 --> 00:15:27 Cause that literally you answered my next question without me even asking it.
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 So that was, that was awesome.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:36 So let's go on to, I was going to do it this way, but why don't you,
00:15:36 --> 00:15:41 what, who, what is the significance of these two individuals?
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 You mentioned Bloom, who was one of the attorneys on the case. And I think.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:50 But no, that was another case I'm thinking about. Explain to the listeners the
00:15:50 --> 00:15:56 significance of these two individuals, Chris Jankowski and Leonard Leo.
00:15:57 --> 00:16:04 Two figures who have probably more to do with why we have an enduring Republican
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 minority rule in this country than any others.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:14 Jankowski, it was the mastermind of something called REDMAP,
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 the redistricting majority project,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:24 which the Republican State Leadership Committee pulled off 2009-2010.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:31 And the idea of this was Democrats had swept into office in 2008,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:37 but Republicans recognized that 2010 could be a much more consequential election
00:16:37 --> 00:16:40 because it was happening in a redistricting year.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 We redistrict every 10 years after the census.
00:16:43 --> 00:16:49 So if you can hold power in a redistricting year in state legislatures,
00:16:49 --> 00:16:51 especially around the country,
00:16:51 --> 00:16:58 you can draw maps for Congress and for state legislatures that advantage your
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 side. It's called gerrymandering.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 We've all heard of gerrymandering. It's been around for a long time,
00:17:04 --> 00:17:08 but the gerrymanders that were drawn in 2010 were more intentional,
00:17:08 --> 00:17:12 more enduring, more consequential than probably any in our history.
00:17:12 --> 00:17:16 In part because one side took it upon themselves to try to win every seat at
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 the table for the express purpose of drawing lines that they could not lose on.
00:17:20 --> 00:17:25 But for the secondary reason that the technology that they were able to do that
00:17:25 --> 00:17:32 with in 2010 was a million times better than even a decade previous.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:37 So they were able to draw lines in many states that they have not been able
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 to lose on for the last 15 years.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:45 It has given Republicans a huge advantage in the race for the U.S. House every year since.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 It has locked in state legislatures around the country, and it's locked in a
00:17:49 --> 00:17:53 more extreme state legislature around the country, too, because when you draw
00:17:53 --> 00:17:57 uncompetitive districts, it moves all the action to the primary,
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 primaries with seven or eight candidates all on one side.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:07 You can win those with 33 percent of the vote. It's held in June and nobody turns out.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 So, so much of the extremism and the uncompetitiveness in our politics can be
00:18:11 --> 00:18:16 traced back to Jankowski and this strategy from more than a decade ago.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:22 Leonard Leo is the mastermind of the Republican plan to win control of the courts.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:27 Leo, through his seat at the Federalist Society, which is really the clearinghouse
00:18:27 --> 00:18:32 and the approval center for all of the conservative right-wing judges around the country,
00:18:33 --> 00:18:40 Leo has taken it upon himself essentially to get to know every young conservative lawyer,
00:18:41 --> 00:18:46 law student who wants to move up along that fast track.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:50 And if you want to sit on a state Supreme Court, on a federal bench,
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 on an appellate bench, or absolutely the U.S.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:57 Supreme Court, you need Leonard Leo's approval.
00:18:57 --> 00:19:04 Leo runs a billion-dollar dark money octopus. He's got his tentacles into dozens
00:19:04 --> 00:19:09 and dozens of different organizations that he funds with misleading names,
00:19:09 --> 00:19:11 with ever-changing names.
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 And it's Leo who...
00:19:14 --> 00:19:21 Was given the power by Donald Trump back in 2016 to choose effectively to make a list,
00:19:22 --> 00:19:30 along with Don McGahn, of the acceptable Supreme Court judges to the conservative right.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 Leo and McGahn effectively drew that list up together.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:39 But his power goes far on the Supreme court.
00:19:39 --> 00:19:44 It's in the dark money that he raises for judicial races around the country.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:55 And it's in his ability to create the social networks at the same time that
00:19:55 --> 00:19:57 keep these judges in line.
00:19:57 --> 00:20:04 When you hear about Clarence Thomas or Samuel Alito taking luxury vacations
00:20:04 --> 00:20:10 or having tuition for their friends paid for or their mom's house being purchased.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:16 It's usually because of a billionaire that Leonard Leo has hooked the justices up with.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:19 So he has far reaching influence.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:25 Yeah. And, you know, I wish I had known these individuals when I was elected, right.
00:20:25 --> 00:20:30 And knew what I was up against because I've had to, during my time in the legislature,
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 I had to be part of a pre-clearance challenge.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:41 And I definitely participated in redistricting.
00:20:42 --> 00:20:45 And, you know, but I was still, when I was in the legislature,
00:20:45 --> 00:20:52 we were like the last democratically held house, state house,
00:20:52 --> 00:20:54 in the country, in the South.
00:20:55 --> 00:20:58 That's right. In Mississippi, we were the last ones to flip.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:03 And so when we redistricted, we kind of did the gerrymandering the other way.
00:21:03 --> 00:21:09 It was I tried to draw a district where I would go into Clinton by myself and
00:21:09 --> 00:21:12 the committee decided to send five other members of the Black Caucus with me.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:17 And we split that city because they wanted to get rid of this one Republican.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:23 So they split the city of Clinton six ways. And so the city of Clinton that
00:21:23 --> 00:21:27 had about 24 people went from having one representative to six.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:35 So I've seen firsthand how it works on both sides as far as how how the gerrymandering process works.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 So don't hold that against me, David. Let's see.
00:21:39 --> 00:21:44 You make the argument in your book, Anti-Democratic, that Shelby B.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:50 Holder was the most significant case concerning the American electoral process.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:55 Why do you hold that above Citizens United versus FEC?
00:21:56 --> 00:22:01 Because we talked about Jankowski, and I think—.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:06 You know, I'm not necessarily disagreeing to you, but I think that Citizens
00:22:06 --> 00:22:15 United gives the fuel for Jankowski to fund an operation of the magnitude that he was able to do.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:22 And that altered the, you know, the state legislatures, especially in the South,
00:22:22 --> 00:22:29 where the income and some of the key swing states or what people call swing
00:22:29 --> 00:22:30 states, where it's like,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:36 even though the majority of the population voted for Democratic House members,
00:22:36 --> 00:22:39 for example, or state legislators.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45 When you look at total numbers, when you look at the map, though,
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 the Republicans ended up winning all the seats.
00:22:49 --> 00:22:53 So why? Anyway, but and you might want to clean that up for me. But why?
00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 Why do you think Shelby Holder is more significant than Citizens United?
00:22:57 --> 00:23:04 I think we're talking about 1A and 1B, right? So it's a degrees of difference here.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:12 Both cases, crucially important, both cases, very early steps along John Roberts'
00:23:12 --> 00:23:17 road towards democratic, a small d democratic destruction.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:22 Because if you look at what the Roberts Court has done over the course of these
00:23:22 --> 00:23:27 last 20 years on every single case in which voting rights and democracy has
00:23:27 --> 00:23:32 come before it, it has ruled through a partisan lens.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:37 Or if they've not ruled through a direct partisan lens, the case has redounded
00:23:37 --> 00:23:42 in such a way that it has benefited the Republican Party and the conservative
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 movement and the people who have put them on the court for precisely that reason.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:53 You can go back and you can look at Citizens United certainly as a crucial piece
00:23:53 --> 00:23:59 of unleashing billions of dollars in dark money into our politics that could
00:23:59 --> 00:24:04 not have been spent in that way before.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:13 I would argue slightly that Jankowski probably runs his redistricting plan regardless.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:19 It was underway at the time that Citizens United comes down in January of 2010.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:25 It only cost them $30 million, which is, you know, chump change in American politics.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:31 And he was able to raise a lot of that through the business community and sort
00:24:31 --> 00:24:37 of usual GOP interests. So, not to say that it's not a wildly consequential
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 and important decision, it absolutely is.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:46 But I think that what is really important and what I think you're getting at
00:24:46 --> 00:24:51 is the way that redistricting and the Shelby County case have worked together
00:24:51 --> 00:24:58 as sort of a double knot of unfairness that has been twisted into state legislatures
00:24:58 --> 00:25:00 and congressional districts around the country.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:04 You're absolutely right to say that, you know, I mean, in North Carolina,
00:25:04 --> 00:25:09 in Ohio, in Michigan, in Wisconsin, you know, purple states we're talking about here.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:14 Majorities statewide vote for Democratic candidates.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:20 Republicans sometimes hold super majorities. And that is not government with
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 the consent of the governed. A majority of Americans ought to be able to throw
00:25:24 --> 00:25:26 out their government if it displeases them.
00:25:26 --> 00:25:31 That is the basic American belief that goes back to the Tea Party,
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 not the Tea Party of 2010, but the one back in the 1770s.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:42 And we have lost that in so many states where voters simply do not have that ability any longer.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:50 But even those redistrictings in states that had been covered by preclearance,
00:25:50 --> 00:25:55 right, in Georgia, in Texas, in Mississippi, in Alabama,
00:25:55 --> 00:26:01 those maps back before Shelby County still had to be precleared by the Department of Justice.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:08 And when John Roberts and his wrecking crew put an end to preclearance,
00:26:08 --> 00:26:15 they liberated all of these gerrymandered state legislatures to do their worst.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:17 They allowed...
00:26:18 --> 00:26:24 You know, Texas to enact a voter ID bill the very day that the Shelby County decision comes down,
00:26:25 --> 00:26:32 that the state of Texas knew full well that between six and 700 Latino voters
00:26:32 --> 00:26:38 in the state did not have the necessary forms of identification that the state
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 was now requiring, not because they weren't citizens,
00:26:42 --> 00:26:47 but because the state legislators had researched the forms of ID that specific
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 people were least likely to have and then required those.
00:26:51 --> 00:27:01 It unleashed the kinds of monster voter suppression bills that we saw in North Carolina, in Georgia.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:09 It allowed things like the local election boards in Georgia that attempted to,
00:27:09 --> 00:27:14 you know, quite possibly, if the election in 2024 had been closer,
00:27:15 --> 00:27:21 would have required hand recounts and delayed certification.
00:27:21 --> 00:27:27 All of these things that the legislatures have done would not have been legal,
00:27:27 --> 00:27:33 would not have been constitutional, or would at least had to have passed muster
00:27:33 --> 00:27:37 of the Department of Justice or a neutral court in Washington, D.C.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 Prior to this. And after the Shelby County decision.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:48 Really what it did was it flung open the doors of, you know,
00:27:48 --> 00:27:56 it's kind of like Stranger Things where, you know, the monster is kept at bay
00:27:56 --> 00:27:58 behind all kinds of locked doors.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:03 And what Shelby County did was it flung those doors open and it allowed those
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 forces to be freed and to get out and do their worst.
00:28:06 --> 00:28:10 Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great metaphor.
00:28:11 --> 00:28:15 The strength of things. I'm sorry I came to it so late in my answer.
00:28:15 --> 00:28:17 But that's all right. That's good. That's good.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:24 So based on my reading of your book, it seems as though that the Republican
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 Party has a 50-year head start in the Democratic Party.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:34 Because in the book, you talk about, you know, how people were really responding like right after.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:39 They were cities like Mobile, Alabama, that were challenging the Voting Rights Act right away.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:44 But it really was this Lewis Powell memo that kind of got everything started.
00:28:44 --> 00:28:49 At least that's, you know, you highlighted that very well.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:55 How can the Democrats catch up and possibly save what's left if they're like
00:28:55 --> 00:28:56 already 50 years behind?
00:28:57 --> 00:29:00 I think that's the crucial question.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:07 I think that we are likely to see this Supreme Court hold power for a long time to come.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 It's a 6-3 Republican court.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:17 Donald Trump will have the ability to appoint members for the next four years.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:23 If Justices Thomas and Alito decide to step down, they can be reinforced with
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 a younger, reliable conservative vote.
00:29:26 --> 00:29:34 The court is probably a lost cause for the rest of my lifetime and,
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 you know, maybe many others.
00:29:37 --> 00:29:42 The good news about the court is that Americans want to see reform.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46 Three quarters of all Americans, Democrats, Republicans, and independents,
00:29:46 --> 00:29:50 believe that there ought to be term limits on Supreme Court justices,
00:29:50 --> 00:29:55 believe that there ought to be a binding ethics code on Supreme Court justices.
00:29:55 --> 00:30:01 And I think the work that Democrats need to do and that they haven't done is
00:30:01 --> 00:30:06 to really make the case for why we need reform.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:13 Big structural judicial reform, why we ought to have more justices on this court,
00:30:14 --> 00:30:18 why we ought to limit the jurisdiction of what this court can do.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:25 And I think we have to stop, in some ways, thinking about this court as a court.
00:30:25 --> 00:30:32 We have to talk about it as what it is, a conservative super majority,
00:30:32 --> 00:30:36 super legislature that has
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 been picked and elevated
00:30:40 --> 00:30:46 itself above the other branches of government for partisan purposes in order
00:30:46 --> 00:30:52 to ratify and enable an agenda that lacks the support of the American people
00:30:52 --> 00:30:59 and that Republicans have decided they can impose through a judicial fiat.
00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 That is really what is happening.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:06 I mean, Abraham Lincoln, back in his first inaugural,
00:31:06 --> 00:31:15 said that if the Supreme Court becomes the final answer on all questions of
00:31:15 --> 00:31:21 public policy, and I'm paraphrasing, but this last part is a direct quotation.
00:31:21 --> 00:31:26 He said that the people will have ceased to be their own rulers.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:38 And I don't think the American people want a body of nine who are unelected, appointed for life.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:41 Have no ethics code, no accountability.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:51 To have that kind of power in what is, whether it's a republic or a democracy
00:31:51 --> 00:31:53 or a representative democracy.
00:31:53 --> 00:32:00 I think we should all believe that that is too much power for anyone unelected to hold.
00:32:01 --> 00:32:06 And there's a real argument there to make, I think, that the Democrats need
00:32:06 --> 00:32:10 to be out in force making. So...
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 In one of my early podcasts, and this will be my last question,
00:32:15 --> 00:32:21 I stated that we may be entering a new era of good feelings where one political
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 party became dominant and the other main party fell into obscurity.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 I was making the argument that the Republicans were becoming irrelevant,
00:32:28 --> 00:32:33 but it may actually be the Democratic Party that may become the obscure party.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:35 What are your thoughts on that?
00:32:36 --> 00:32:40 Oh, by the way, before you answer that, I'm going to try to subscribe to the
00:32:40 --> 00:32:45 McCaskey plan, the lady who just passed, who was the owner of the Bears. She lived to be 102.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:49 So if I can get on that plan, and maybe you and I get on that plan,
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 we can outlast these folks on the Supreme Court.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:58 You're going to have to let me know about that plan, because I'm eating a little
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 too much ice cream these days to think that I'm going to make 102. too.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:08 But we are a 50-50 country in many ways.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:13 The problem is that all of the power is held on one side of the aisle,
00:33:13 --> 00:33:19 and the structural problems in American politics are only getting more complicated
00:33:19 --> 00:33:24 and falling more in line with the electoral interests of the Republican Party.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:30 We have seen the impact of their gerrymanders on state legislatures and the U.S. House.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:36 Those gerrymanders are probably only going to strengthen over the coming years
00:33:36 --> 00:33:43 as they remap Ohio and as we see cases before the Supreme Court right now on
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46 Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act and redistricting from Alabama, Georgia,
00:33:47 --> 00:33:54 and Louisiana that I fear will not go the way that those who believe in multiracial
00:33:54 --> 00:33:57 democracy would like them to. The U.S.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:07 Senate is a deeply flawed and unequal body, and that's going to become even more so.
00:34:07 --> 00:34:12 By 2035, it said that 70% of the country will live in 15 states,
00:34:12 --> 00:34:18 which means that 70% of us will have 30 senators, and the other smaller part
00:34:18 --> 00:34:23 will have 70, which means those whiter, more rural, smaller states are going
00:34:23 --> 00:34:26 to have real outsized power.
00:34:27 --> 00:34:32 And when you factor the filibuster in there as well, it almost becomes a majoritarian
00:34:32 --> 00:34:38 veto power. When you look at what's likely to happen after the 2030 census with
00:34:38 --> 00:34:42 population shifts in the country, I think you're going to see additional...
00:34:43 --> 00:34:50 Congressional seats and therefore additional electoral votes move from the blue
00:34:50 --> 00:34:58 wall states of Illinois, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New York, Rhode Island.
00:34:58 --> 00:35:05 And those votes are likely to go to Texas and Arizona and Florida,
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 which is going to change the very nature of presidential races.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 It's going to make it harder for Democrats to take the House,
00:35:11 --> 00:35:16 not because there aren't Democrats in those states or not because those states
00:35:16 --> 00:35:21 aren't oftentimes 50-50 or 52-48 states,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24 but because when you have the power to draw the lines and make the rules,
00:35:24 --> 00:35:27 you take all of the seats and all of the power.
00:35:27 --> 00:35:36 So when you factor in where we are and where things are going with the Senate, with the courts,
00:35:37 --> 00:35:40 with the Electoral College, with the state of redistricting,
00:35:40 --> 00:35:47 I think Democrats have got a very difficult hand to play over the next coming years.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:52 They're going to need a strategy of their own, and they're going to have to
00:35:52 --> 00:35:57 really start talking and thinking about how to fix these structural problems,
00:35:57 --> 00:36:01 how to reform them in a time where they don't have a lot of power,
00:36:01 --> 00:36:07 which means convincing Americans that this has to be done and that it has to happen now.
00:36:08 --> 00:36:15 All right, David. So I try to base the questions not just on anti-democratic,
00:36:15 --> 00:36:21 but also rat-effed, which is the other book that deals with the redistricting.
00:36:21 --> 00:36:27 So how can people get in touch with you? How can people get copies of both of those books and.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:34 Yeah, just how can people reach out to you? Yeah, those books are pretty available
00:36:34 --> 00:36:38 wherever it is you like to buy your books, whether it's in your local bookstore,
00:36:38 --> 00:36:46 whether it's on Amazon or Barnes & Noble or bookshop.org, all places you can find these books.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 You can find me on the socials.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:56 You know, I'm not up there as my pages on Twitter, on Blue Sky,
00:36:56 --> 00:37:00 on the like. You can find contact info as well.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 I'm right here. Always happy to talk.
00:37:03 --> 00:37:10 Well, David Daley, I always like, I love this podcast that I do because I always
00:37:10 --> 00:37:12 get to talk to people who are much smarter than me.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:16 And you definitely fit in that category. And I'm honored that you took the time
00:37:16 --> 00:37:24 to be able to talk to the audience about redistricting and the Shelby v.
00:37:24 --> 00:37:29 Holder case. because, and I really encourage people to get these books,
00:37:29 --> 00:37:31 Anti-Democratic and Rat-Effed.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 If you, I know people are like, Rat-Effed, you got to see the title,
00:37:36 --> 00:37:37 then you'll understand what I'm saying.
00:37:38 --> 00:37:44 But I think that will give people an understanding of how part of the main reason
00:37:44 --> 00:37:45 why we're here, what we're here.
00:37:46 --> 00:37:50 And I'm glad that you took the time out to do the research and to put it in
00:37:50 --> 00:37:55 such a form where even dummies like me can understand it. So thank you for that,
00:37:55 --> 00:37:57 and thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 Really a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. All right, guys,
00:38:00 --> 00:38:02 and we're going to catch you all on the other side.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:21 Music.
00:38:19 --> 00:38:23 We'll see you next week. All right. And we are back.
00:38:23 --> 00:38:28 And so now it's time for my next guest, Janae Lewis.
00:38:29 --> 00:38:35 Jeanné Lewis serves as the CEO of Faith in Public Life. She is a nonprofit executive,
00:38:36 --> 00:38:41 faith-based organizer, and an authority on creating empowered communities.
00:38:41 --> 00:38:45 She has dedicated her career to building bridges, closing equity gaps,
00:38:45 --> 00:38:51 and creating policies that lead to strong, thriving, and self-determined cities.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:56 Jeanné received her undergraduate degree from Washington University in St.
00:38:56 --> 00:39:01 Louis and holds an MA in conflict resolution from Antioch University Midwest. West.
00:39:02 --> 00:39:06 Jeanné resides in Washington, D.C. and is a member of the D.C.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:11 Working Families Party, St. Augustine Catholic Parish, and Songrise,
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 a women's social justice a cappella group.
00:39:14 --> 00:39:19 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:39:19 --> 00:39:23 on this podcast, Jeanné Lewis. Thank you.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:33 Music.
00:39:33 --> 00:39:39 All right, Jeanné Lewis, Madam President, how you doing? You doing good this Valentine's Day?
00:39:39 --> 00:39:44 You know, I'm wearing my red lipstick. I'm doing all right on Valentine's Day. I'm doing all right.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:50 Yeah, I don't think the rules are the same like in St. Patrick's Day where people
00:39:50 --> 00:39:53 get to pinch you and all that kind of stuff if you're not wearing the right color.
00:39:53 --> 00:39:58 But, you know, some of us, I'm glad at least somebody's got a Valentine,
00:39:58 --> 00:40:00 but that'll be a whole nother show for another day.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:05 I'm glad you're on because I wanted you to come on.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:12 There were several guests that I've had on before that I wanted to come on after this whole thing.
00:40:12 --> 00:40:15 And I just started thinking about who should I line up?
00:40:15 --> 00:40:21 And you were one of the people that I wanted to get on because you come at public
00:40:21 --> 00:40:23 policy from a different angle.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:31 You've made it your life's work to incorporate faith and into the political discussion.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:38 And so I definitely think that we need people of faith in this moment.
00:40:38 --> 00:40:43 And so I just wanted you to come on and kind of talk about how we can,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:49 you know, what you're doing primarily to try to navigate through this.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:55 So in the beginning, as always, I throw a quote at the guests to start an icebreaker,
00:40:55 --> 00:40:57 but I've got two icebreakers now.
00:40:58 --> 00:41:03 So the first one's going to be the quote, and it's from Proverbs 2410,
00:41:03 --> 00:41:06 and I use the New King James Version.
00:41:06 --> 00:41:12 It says, if you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.
00:41:12 --> 00:41:18 What does that quote mean to you? Well, I think that this proverb to me,
00:41:19 --> 00:41:25 especially in our current climate, means that we have to hold the balance between
00:41:25 --> 00:41:30 preparing for what we do not know and responding to what is in front of us.
00:41:30 --> 00:41:36 For years, decades, many of us have been doing work on racial equity.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:44 Wealth equity, calling out oppression and authoritarianism whenever we see it.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:51 And trying to train others to be prepared for that, how to fight that,
00:41:52 --> 00:41:53 how to offer alternatives to that.
00:41:54 --> 00:41:58 And that preparation, that training builds strength.
00:41:59 --> 00:42:04 So when adversity comes, hopefully one is prepared, one has trained.
00:42:04 --> 00:42:07 And I think many people in the U.S.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:12 Have trained for this moment, even without realizing it, because many people
00:42:12 --> 00:42:14 in the U.S. have been suffering for a very long time.
00:42:14 --> 00:42:17 And so we have found ways to be resilient and to cope.
00:42:19 --> 00:42:26 If our strength fails in this moment, you know, I don't think that any of us honestly can be judged.
00:42:26 --> 00:42:32 This is a very traumatic and trying time for everyone in our country.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:38 And I think as human beings, we all have limits and we all have breaking points.
00:42:38 --> 00:42:44 But my hope is that we can draw on the training that we have done and also from
00:42:44 --> 00:42:49 our ancestors in this moment in order to be resilient and continue to create
00:42:49 --> 00:42:52 the society that we all want. Yeah.
00:42:53 --> 00:43:02 So my next icebreaker is something I've come to call 20 questions.
00:43:03 --> 00:43:08 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:43:08 --> 00:43:15 Five. So this is your question. What do you think we should decide at the local
00:43:15 --> 00:43:19 or state levels versus the federal level?
00:43:21 --> 00:43:24 That's a hard question. And it could be a long list.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:32 I think the way our government is structured and is intended to function works.
00:43:32 --> 00:43:38 I don't see decisions at the state level or federal level being either or.
00:43:38 --> 00:43:42 I think the state level and the federal level create checks and balances when
00:43:42 --> 00:43:44 they function at its best.
00:43:45 --> 00:43:54 So ideally, we at the state level are making decisions about our schools, our local budgets,
00:43:55 --> 00:44:00 our infrastructure, our local taxes.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:04 And at the federal level, there
00:44:04 --> 00:44:10 are guardrails and guidelines that continue to unite us as a country.
00:44:11 --> 00:44:16 I don't think that there are, in my opinion, I don't think that there are any
00:44:16 --> 00:44:22 decisions that only the federal government should decide or only the state level should decide.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 I think we need to be in conversation with each other at those two levels to
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28 make the best outcome for our communities.
00:44:29 --> 00:44:33 Yeah. And. I didn't know that that was going to be the question I was going
00:44:33 --> 00:44:36 to ask you, but. Neither did I.
00:44:36 --> 00:44:42 Yeah, that's kind of the whole point of it. But it's very pertinent to where
00:44:42 --> 00:44:51 we're going, because, you know, one of the issues that y'all deal with a lot is immigration.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:58 And one of them, the other one is like reproductive rights. And so that's been kind of a debate.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:05 The current administration believes that reproductive rights should be strictly a state issue.
00:45:06 --> 00:45:14 And traditionally, immigration has been strictly a federal issue that this administration
00:45:14 --> 00:45:17 wants the states to be more engaged in.
00:45:18 --> 00:45:21 So I guess I can go ahead with this question since, you know,
00:45:22 --> 00:45:24 we kind of opened that door.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:30 In light of the first few weeks, how much of a challenge you all facing on those
00:45:30 --> 00:45:33 issues and how do you plan to overcome those challenges?
00:45:34 --> 00:45:40 Well, I'll start with immigration. Our work over the last several years has
00:45:40 --> 00:45:44 been ringing the alarm around political violence broadly.
00:45:44 --> 00:45:50 We have seen attacks on elected officials, attempted kidnappings, voter intimidation.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:58 All of that attempt to interrupt our elections process is political violence.
00:45:58 --> 00:46:06 But it is also political violence to vilify immigrants, to demonize trans people,
00:46:06 --> 00:46:15 to say that any subset of our country is a villain or unwelcome or harmful,
00:46:15 --> 00:46:20 and judging people based on their identities and who they are,
00:46:20 --> 00:46:25 as opposed to what they do and how they contribute or don't contribute to society.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:30 So for us, this is a continuation of the work we've done on political violence.
00:46:30 --> 00:46:36 And sadly, immigrants are one of the groups that are targeted most right now.
00:46:36 --> 00:46:39 So we are seeing mass deportations.
00:46:40 --> 00:46:42 We're seeing increased law enforcement
00:46:42 --> 00:46:46 through ICE. We are seeing the militarization of law enforcement.
00:46:47 --> 00:46:51 And those acts of political violence strip people of their dignity.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:56 They disrupt families and they are harming communities. They're harming whole communities.
00:46:56 --> 00:47:00 And it undermines the moral foundation of our country. So as faith leaders,
00:47:00 --> 00:47:06 we are working to address that and connect the dots for people around how this
00:47:06 --> 00:47:08 is not an individual opinion.
00:47:08 --> 00:47:14 This is not personal preference, but this is a continuation of violence against
00:47:14 --> 00:47:16 a particular group of people.
00:47:16 --> 00:47:21 And if immigrants are targeted now, any of us, no matter how we identify,
00:47:21 --> 00:47:25 could be targeted tomorrow, and it does not reflect the values of our country.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 So our faith leaders are speaking out about that, as I am with you today,
00:47:30 --> 00:47:35 speaking to the press, speaking to their congregations to help people make meaning
00:47:35 --> 00:47:37 of this moment and to denounce it.
00:47:37 --> 00:47:43 So that's what we're doing around immigration right now, around comprehensive
00:47:43 --> 00:47:48 reproductive health care, which some folks use the term reproductive rights.
00:47:48 --> 00:47:49 Others say reproductive justice.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:57 Our approach to this is looking at all of the issues around reproductive health care. The same is true.
00:47:57 --> 00:48:04 This issue has been distorted and weaponized in order to divide the country.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:13 And the perspective of saying that reproductive access around a wide range of
00:48:13 --> 00:48:19 issues should be restricted does not reflect the opinions of most people of faith in the country.
00:48:19 --> 00:48:23 Yet Christianity is being used to justify these decisions.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:29 And so we saw last summer in local elections that people of faith and people
00:48:29 --> 00:48:35 who are not of faith really rejected some of the more fringe and radical ideas
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 about restricting access to reproductive health care. Okay.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:46 You said in an interview that beauty, the beauty and opportunity in drawing
00:48:46 --> 00:48:50 on our faith traditions is to give one another courage.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:55 How important is courage right now in our current political environment?
00:48:55 --> 00:49:06 And, you know, I mean, I like the way that you identify what's going on with
00:49:06 --> 00:49:08 immigration as political violence.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:17 I think a lot of people are trying not to engage in politics a lot because we
00:49:17 --> 00:49:23 got some poll I looked at and talked to another guest about last year.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:26 About 10 to 11 percent of the population thinks
00:49:26 --> 00:49:30 that political violence is the way to solve the problem so
00:49:30 --> 00:49:33 you know a lot of people are like yeah
00:49:33 --> 00:49:41 i'm not trying to i'll go vote if i do vote but you know don't ask me any questions
00:49:41 --> 00:49:45 don't you know just i just want to keep it moving because i don't want to take
00:49:45 --> 00:49:51 the chance that out of the next 10 people i meet one of them is like,
00:49:51 --> 00:49:54 yeah, you know, they're going to confront you.
00:49:54 --> 00:49:59 So that's why I wanted to ask you as a political leader and a faith leader.
00:50:00 --> 00:50:03 About the importance of courage during this time?
00:50:04 --> 00:50:11 Courage is always important because when we talk about transforming society
00:50:11 --> 00:50:17 for the better, for social justice, for human rights so that people can thrive.
00:50:18 --> 00:50:24 It will and it does require courage to do something differently because the
00:50:24 --> 00:50:28 way that we have been operating, it has not gotten us there yet.
00:50:28 --> 00:50:32 So we have to learn how to grow and evolve And that is challenging.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:37 So in this moment, we think about courage as advocating for what is right,
00:50:37 --> 00:50:44 speaking out around our values, denouncing harm and bad policies and bad decisions that are being made.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:47 And that is required and that takes courage.
00:50:47 --> 00:50:55 And there's also internal work that has to be done around drawing courage to
00:50:55 --> 00:50:58 address and look our fears in the face,
00:50:58 --> 00:51:03 to continue to engage with people that we disagree with.
00:51:03 --> 00:51:10 And I want to make a distinction between the everyday voter who has a different
00:51:10 --> 00:51:16 opinion from us and the folks who are now in power in our government who are
00:51:16 --> 00:51:21 making laws that oppress us and firing people and taking our data,
00:51:21 --> 00:51:23 two different groups of people.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:30 But when we encounter our neighbor, it requires courage to remain open enough
00:51:30 --> 00:51:35 to discern whether they truly mean us harm or whether they have a different perspective.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:39 And if they have a different perspective, it takes courage to have a level of
00:51:39 --> 00:51:44 vulnerability to explain how their perspective might be causing us harm in this moment.
00:51:44 --> 00:51:49 That, in my opinion, is deep spiritual work, and we must draw on our faith traditions
00:51:49 --> 00:51:54 and our practice to give us the courage to do that, and also the wisdom to make that discernment.
00:51:55 --> 00:51:58 Because I would never say, and I do not believe, that we should engage with
00:51:58 --> 00:52:03 individuals who want to harm us, who mean us harm.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:10 But I do think that many of the people who voted differently from us,
00:52:10 --> 00:52:17 who have stereotypes and are ignorant about immigrants and LGBTQ people and
00:52:17 --> 00:52:20 Black people and women's health care,
00:52:20 --> 00:52:25 I don't know that all of those people are leading with an active hatred towards us.
00:52:25 --> 00:52:31 And there's a courage and a spiritual discipline to remember that they, too,
00:52:31 --> 00:52:39 are children of God and to find ways to be honest and call them back into right
00:52:39 --> 00:52:42 relationship with us as opposed to demonizing them.
00:52:43 --> 00:52:48 So this is deep spiritual work. And I think that spiritual work leads us to
00:52:48 --> 00:52:50 courage, but also leads us to wisdom and discernment.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:57 Well, speaking of deep spiritual work, there's a perceived tension in the political
00:52:57 --> 00:53:03 diaspora between black Protestants, Muslims and Jews coming off the last election.
00:53:04 --> 00:53:10 Do you perceive that as well? And how do you navigate through that?
00:53:11 --> 00:53:17 Yes, there is a tension between those three groups because of what's happening
00:53:17 --> 00:53:19 and what has happened in the Middle East.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:28 I think the challenge around this tension is that it is old wounds.
00:53:28 --> 00:53:37 The events of October 7th, a year and a half ago, cracked open wounds that are 100 years old.
00:53:37 --> 00:53:43 And quite frankly, that across our interfaith coalitions, we have never properly
00:53:43 --> 00:53:45 dealt with, not at scale.
00:53:45 --> 00:53:52 And so those wounds have been cracked open and we are still navigating the aftermath of that.
00:53:52 --> 00:53:57 What I see happening in our communities is an expression of trauma.
00:53:57 --> 00:54:01 So not only the actual trauma that faith leaders across those traditions have
00:54:01 --> 00:54:05 experienced, but the trauma of our collective ancestors coming into play.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:09 And so it has been difficult to navigate that.
00:54:09 --> 00:54:15 My approach is that we continue to keep our eyes on shared goals,
00:54:15 --> 00:54:21 but we have to pause long enough in those conversations to acknowledge the hurt
00:54:21 --> 00:54:25 and the harm that people feel and the trauma that people have experienced.
00:54:25 --> 00:54:31 And that's a very delicate balance. It requires, I think, smaller group conversations.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:38 It requires a sharing and a bridging of trust that individuals have built over time.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:44 The ways in which I have seen us deal with this tension well are among people
00:54:44 --> 00:54:47 who have already been in relationship over years,
00:54:47 --> 00:54:51 who have already built up a level of trust across faith traditions and are leveraging
00:54:51 --> 00:54:56 that trust to expand the conversation in the circle slowly but surely.
00:54:56 --> 00:55:03 I think there's a challenge when we try to have the conversation about these
00:55:03 --> 00:55:09 very old wounds en masse in public with large groups of people at the same time.
00:55:10 --> 00:55:15 I think it limits us because we are very much all deep in our trauma,
00:55:15 --> 00:55:17 but I think it can be done.
00:55:17 --> 00:55:20 And I also want to say that there's opportunity in this moment.
00:55:20 --> 00:55:25 There's opportunity in this tension because the issues and the pain and the
00:55:25 --> 00:55:27 concerns that people are lifting up are real.
00:55:28 --> 00:55:31 The injustice that people are lifting up is real.
00:55:32 --> 00:55:36 The contradictions and the paradox that people are lifting up,
00:55:36 --> 00:55:38 these things are real and they need to be addressed.
00:55:38 --> 00:55:43 So we have an opportunity in this moment, but I think it requires an honoring
00:55:43 --> 00:55:48 of the trauma that all three of these groups are feeling and the trust of interpersonal
00:55:48 --> 00:55:50 relationships to help navigate through it.
00:55:50 --> 00:55:55 Yeah, I totally agree with that because, you know, I kind of addressed that
00:55:55 --> 00:56:00 near the end of my last episode because—.
00:56:01 --> 00:56:06 There was a young man who had said some real, real nasty things about the previous
00:56:06 --> 00:56:11 vice president, Kamala Harris, and then and he's Palestinian.
00:56:12 --> 00:56:18 And then he's been on social media reaching out and saying, hey,
00:56:18 --> 00:56:24 we all need to come together to deal with, you know, turning Gaza into a new
00:56:24 --> 00:56:26 gentrification project.
00:56:26 --> 00:56:30 And and the black folks on there were like, really?
00:56:31 --> 00:56:35 And I'm being nice with it, the really part, because they said some really,
00:56:35 --> 00:56:36 really vile things to him.
00:56:37 --> 00:56:41 And, you know, and I just and I started thinking. And so when I said,
00:56:41 --> 00:56:46 well, I need to talk to Sister Lewis about this particular thing,
00:56:46 --> 00:56:52 because I just remember I just and I think I mentioned in the last interview,
00:56:52 --> 00:56:56 I just remember when we had interfaith group.
00:56:56 --> 00:56:58 We were working with in Jackson, Mississippi.
00:56:58 --> 00:57:04 And one of the meeting days was 9-11 in 2001.
00:57:04 --> 00:57:09 And the imam was like, had two phones going and he was just like,
00:57:09 --> 00:57:13 and he couldn't even stay for the meeting, you know, and we didn't stay much
00:57:13 --> 00:57:18 longer after he left, but it was just, you know, that was one of those moments.
00:57:19 --> 00:57:25 And I looked at the last election and the discussions afterwards words on social
00:57:25 --> 00:57:28 media, that that's another moment.
00:57:28 --> 00:57:33 And like you said, it just opens up, it's just opened up old wounds.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:39 And I think the approach of being in small groups of trust, as you put it,
00:57:40 --> 00:57:42 is really the best way to go.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:47 But you can't get a small moment of trust on social media.
00:57:48 --> 00:57:54 Correct. Correct. I think that there is some opportunity in the small groups.
00:57:54 --> 00:58:00 And I think it is important to call out the big geopolitical injustice.
00:58:01 --> 00:58:06 I think the challenge that we're facing is that in a lot of our public spaces,
00:58:06 --> 00:58:09 people are being asked to choose a side.
00:58:09 --> 00:58:16 It's a hard binary, as opposed to understanding that the region is rife with trauma.
00:58:16 --> 00:58:23 And there are many other actors, including the British, including evangelical
00:58:23 --> 00:58:27 Christians in the U.S., including other Arab nations,
00:58:27 --> 00:58:32 including China, et cetera, and so forth, who have hands and influence in that region.
00:58:32 --> 00:58:40 And so I think when we have big public dialogue, it is ideal if we also So name
00:58:40 --> 00:58:44 those other factors instead of saying it's this side or that side, one or the other.
00:58:44 --> 00:58:48 And that often doesn't happen, which I think reinforces some of the trauma.
00:58:49 --> 00:58:54 All right. So and first of all, I should have I should have said this at the beginning.
00:58:56 --> 00:59:01 And I want to, I want to kind of, well, not kind of, I want to apologize to
00:59:01 --> 00:59:03 you about the tenor of the questions.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:11 And the reason why I'm saying that is because, you know, I try to have conversations
00:59:11 --> 00:59:17 with my guests, even on serious matters where, you know, it's,
00:59:18 --> 00:59:20 you know, there's some uplift in there.
00:59:21 --> 00:59:26 And when I was going over the questions and I reached out to your assistant,
00:59:26 --> 00:59:32 Ethel, about it, and I was like, I said, oh, man, this is some heavy stuff I'm
00:59:32 --> 00:59:33 about to ask Sister Lewis.
00:59:34 --> 00:59:37 All this stuff. Well, it's a heavy time. Yeah. It's a heavy time.
00:59:37 --> 00:59:42 Yeah. So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there because some people are
00:59:42 --> 00:59:45 like going, man, he's hitting hub with these questions and stuff.
00:59:45 --> 00:59:47 It's like, oh, my God. Anyway.
00:59:48 --> 00:59:53 It's all good. It's all good. It's a happy time, but we have reason for hope.
00:59:54 --> 00:59:57 You know, being here in Washington, D.C., I don't think most people in the country
00:59:57 --> 01:00:00 see this, but people are protesting every day.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:06 People are speaking out. People are very clear that what is happening is not
01:00:06 --> 01:00:09 acceptable and does not reflect who we are as a country.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:14 And that gives me hope. Right. People are not going to sit back and just allow
01:00:14 --> 01:00:15 our democracy to fall away.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:19 That gives me hope. So we have many, many reasons to hope in this moment.
01:00:20 --> 01:00:28 And I'm glad you answered it that way because one of the concerns I have is that.
01:00:29 --> 01:00:37 We had 77 million people vote for Donald Trump and he is considered the avatar
01:00:37 --> 01:00:39 for Christian nationalism.
01:00:39 --> 01:00:46 Yeah. And a lot of people, especially people that look like us, are like going really,
01:00:46 --> 01:00:52 you know, and, but you had answered it in some part too, because it's like when
01:00:52 --> 01:00:58 we engage people, we have to engage people where they are instead of how we perceive them.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:05 And I think that if if we actually have conversations and we actually engage people,
01:01:06 --> 01:01:11 that also builds the hope, too, because it's like once you realize that not
01:01:11 --> 01:01:15 everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a Christian nationalist,
01:01:16 --> 01:01:18 not everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a racist.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:23 Not everybody that voted for Donald Trump is a sexist or whatever,
01:01:23 --> 01:01:26 whatever negative connotation is associated with him.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:30 You know, it's like there are literally people that was like,
01:01:30 --> 01:01:35 well, I just thought that he would make our groceries cheaper.
01:01:35 --> 01:01:40 I thought that he could handle certain things a little different than the vice president.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:44 I mean, you know, and and once you have those kind of conversations,
01:01:45 --> 01:01:50 then the hope builds us like, OK, well, next go around, we can probably be on
01:01:50 --> 01:01:54 the same call, you know, on the same coalition of voters.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:58 And I don't know if you agree with that, but that's kind of like my thinking.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:02 Well, I can't predict how people will vote next time around,
01:02:02 --> 01:02:09 but I 100% agree that people voting for Donald Trump were not necessarily voting
01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 for Christian nationalism.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:15 Now, there are many people who are voting for Christian nationalism,
01:02:15 --> 01:02:18 but I think the context for that is important.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:21 There has been a decades-long movement happening.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:28 To mislead people, quite frankly, about what Christianity is and who Jesus is.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:35 And so there are many Christian nationalists who believe that this idea of authoritarianism
01:02:35 --> 01:02:37 and nationalism is what Jesus wants.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:44 They have been miseducated. They have been converted into a distortion of Christianity.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:50 So if that is the case, then there's also an opportunity to introduce people
01:02:50 --> 01:02:52 to the fullness of Jesus, right?
01:02:53 --> 01:02:59 To a more anchored and more ancient and more true version of who Jesus is.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:02 And those people may vote differently.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:07 But I think the opportunity for us in this moment where Christian nationalism
01:03:07 --> 01:03:12 is on the rise and religious nationalism globally is on the rise is to remember
01:03:12 --> 01:03:14 that no matter who we are,
01:03:14 --> 01:03:17 our ancestors have faced something similar.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:22 And so we can learn from them. we can learn what faith-rooted leadership looked
01:03:22 --> 01:03:27 like from Ella Baker and Thurgood Marshall and obviously Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:34 And Gandhi and others, that there is wisdom in our communities and in our faith
01:03:34 --> 01:03:41 traditions to help us navigate this moment, not only to support one another and heal one another,
01:03:41 --> 01:03:49 but also to thrive and create a different vision for what the United States is and can be.
01:03:49 --> 01:03:55 So I am very hopeful in this moment. And I think that as we continue to be bold
01:03:55 --> 01:04:02 and courageous about saying what that vision is of community and belonging and unity,
01:04:02 --> 01:04:07 people will respond to it because genuinely that's, I believe, what people want. Yeah.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:10 So I'm going to close with this question.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:21 And in my latest iteration of podcasts, I've been promoting this concept of
01:04:21 --> 01:04:25 an American leader because I sit and watch,
01:04:25 --> 01:04:27 you know, having been an elected official myself,
01:04:28 --> 01:04:32 having had aspirations to serve in Congress.
01:04:33 --> 01:04:36 I'm looking at the people up there now, and I'm like going...
01:04:37 --> 01:04:41 If I was still up there, I'd be losing my mind. I'd be kind of like Mitch McConnell
01:04:41 --> 01:04:43 now. I'd just be the grouchy old dude up there.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:48 It's like, you know, I'm not I'm not trying to support anything anybody wanted at this point.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:53 I just want to get out of here. But I believe that a new American leader,
01:04:53 --> 01:04:57 and that's what I've been pushing, a new American leader should practice accountability,
01:04:57 --> 01:05:01 embrace our diversity, fight for justice and equity,
01:05:02 --> 01:05:07 promote inclusiveness, minimize wealth disparities, and convince us to abandon our grievances.
01:05:07 --> 01:05:15 Because I think grievance is like the, I don't want to say evil,
01:05:15 --> 01:05:19 but the vice, I guess, that a lot of us fall into when we're voting.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:23 It's like, well, I don't like this. I'm going to vote for that person. Right.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:29 Is there anything that you envision? Is there anything that you'd like to add
01:05:29 --> 01:05:35 as far as what you would like to see as far as a leader is concerned in this country?
01:05:35 --> 01:05:38 Yes. I agree with your description.
01:05:38 --> 01:05:44 And I think that our faith traditions give us models around leaders who advance
01:05:44 --> 01:05:51 truth and leaders who are not seeking power for its own sake or for themselves,
01:05:51 --> 01:05:58 but are building power in order to steward our resources for the good of everyone.
01:05:58 --> 01:06:03 So that truth seeking, I think, is deeply important.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:09 Truth is complex. It is not fixed, especially when you add diversity and you
01:06:09 --> 01:06:10 add more perspectives to it.
01:06:10 --> 01:06:15 But leaders who are constantly seeking the truth and trying to bring that into
01:06:15 --> 01:06:20 light and make decisions stemming from truth, I think is key for this moment.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:25 And again, that stewardship, being a servant leader, understanding that being
01:06:25 --> 01:06:29 an elected official, even in my role leading an organization,
01:06:29 --> 01:06:35 any leadership role is really about stewarding the resources we have for the
01:06:35 --> 01:06:36 collective good of everyone.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:42 Yeah. So, okay. I can, I can add a couple of those on there. That sounds good.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:48 Yeah. Cause I mean, I just think that we, we, we, we're really devoid of that right now.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:53 I'm just, I just watch a whole lot of grandstanding and all that stuff.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:59 And it's not like, you know, like I have to remind people I served like 25 years
01:06:59 --> 01:07:06 ago. So it's hard to believe, but it's been 25 years since I was first elected to something. And...
01:07:07 --> 01:07:12 It's just, you know, so you had a few of those folks, but now it looks like
01:07:12 --> 01:07:15 that's the norm. And that just drives me absolutely nuts.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:19 So that's why I'm, you know, trying to promote people.
01:07:19 --> 01:07:26 And I'm glad that you you you're one of those models of leadership that that
01:07:26 --> 01:07:34 that people need to follow and embrace and continue to have your voice uplifted in the conversation.
01:07:35 --> 01:07:39 So speaking about uplifting, oh, you're welcome. Speaking about uplifting,
01:07:39 --> 01:07:41 how can people get in touch with you?
01:07:41 --> 01:07:44 How can people get involved with Faith in Public Life?
01:07:44 --> 01:07:46 Just go ahead and give me the whole spiel.
01:07:48 --> 01:07:54 Our website is faithinpubliclife.org. That is the best way to find us.
01:07:54 --> 01:07:58 All of our social media handles are there if you go on the site.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:01 And you can sign up for our mailing list if you want more information about
01:08:01 --> 01:08:03 our campaigns and the actions that we're doing.
01:08:04 --> 01:08:08 And we would love to hear from you. So send us a note, send us an email, find us online.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:14 Yeah, and just so y'all understand, if y'all were in Springfield,
01:08:14 --> 01:08:17 Ohio, when they were talking about folks eating dogs and cats and you saw these
01:08:17 --> 01:08:20 billboards going up saying, yeah, that's not true.
01:08:20 --> 01:08:23 That was Sister Lewis and her group, Faith.
01:08:24 --> 01:08:27 That was us. That was us in partnership with some other folks.
01:08:27 --> 01:08:30 I don't want to leave out other folks, but that was definitely us, yes.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:38 Yeah, so I just want people to understand And Sister Lewis and her organization
01:08:38 --> 01:08:41 have been on the ground and they've been doing the work.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:46 They may not get all the headlines because there's a lot of folks out there trying to get them.
01:08:47 --> 01:08:53 But the key thing for me and what I've always tried to do with my voice is to
01:08:53 --> 01:08:55 uplift other voices that are doing the work.
01:08:55 --> 01:09:00 So, Jeanné Lewis, I really appreciate you taking the time to come on.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:05 I want to thank your staff for being diligent and making sure that we got this thing working.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:11 And anytime, as always, anytime you want to come on, sister,
01:09:11 --> 01:09:14 I greatly appreciate it because I appreciate you and what you're doing.
01:09:15 --> 01:09:18 So anytime you want to come on, just let me know and we'll make that happen.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:22 Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. It's always a pleasure,
01:09:22 --> 01:09:23 Erik. Always a pleasure.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:26 All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:37 Music.
01:09:37 --> 01:09:46 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank David Daley for coming on and
01:09:46 --> 01:09:49 Jeanné Lewis for coming on.
01:09:49 --> 01:09:52 David is an incredible writer.
01:09:53 --> 01:09:58 Please get anti-democratic if you want to understand the history of how we got
01:09:58 --> 01:10:02 to this point. And also rat-effed.
01:10:02 --> 01:10:06 You'll understand why I'm saying rat-effed if you actually get the book.
01:10:07 --> 01:10:14 But those two books really should be required reading for political science
01:10:14 --> 01:10:24 students and activists who want to understand the connection of how we got to this point in politics.
01:10:25 --> 01:10:33 And please support Faith in Public Life. Ms. Lewis has been with this organization for a while.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:42 When the founder of the organization decided to step down, Jeanné was the one
01:10:42 --> 01:10:46 that they picked to lead it into the next chapter.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:53 And she is a very, very solid sister. She is a very spiritual sister.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:59 And she's committed to lifting this nation up.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:09 And again, you know, I think in short time, her name is going to start appearing more and more.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:15 But again, the whole point is not about fame. The point is getting the work done.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:23 And regardless of whether the nation knows her or not, her work will speak for
01:11:23 --> 01:11:25 her and the organization.
01:11:25 --> 01:11:30 So please look up faithinpubliclife.org, I believe.
01:11:31 --> 01:11:34 That's the website. If I'm getting
01:11:34 --> 01:11:39 it wrong, y'all find it. But Faith in Public Life, that's the group.
01:11:39 --> 01:11:44 And support them in their efforts if you can.
01:11:48 --> 01:11:53 So, again, I just have a couple of things on my mind to kind of close out.
01:11:53 --> 01:11:57 One, I'm really, really pissed off about...
01:11:59 --> 01:12:07 This whole Doge thing, right? The Department of Government Efficiency.
01:12:07 --> 01:12:13 So let me break it down to folks so they understand. This is not an official
01:12:13 --> 01:12:16 government agency, right?
01:12:17 --> 01:12:26 Elon Musk donated $250 million through various ways to Donald Trump's campaign for president.
01:12:26 --> 01:12:36 And since Donald won, and he's the president again, he basically wanted to placate Elon.
01:12:37 --> 01:12:44 And one of, I guess, the issues that Elon supposedly has an axiogrin with is
01:12:44 --> 01:12:46 the size of the federal government.
01:12:48 --> 01:13:01 And being a CEO of corporations and how he came in and downsized Twitter and
01:13:01 --> 01:13:05 changed the name to X and what he's done at Tesla and all that,
01:13:05 --> 01:13:11 I guess he figures that he needed to or wanted to do that with the federal government.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:22 And so Donald Trump initially had him and Vivek Ramaswamy be the people to lead
01:13:22 --> 01:13:25 an effort to downsize the federal government.
01:13:28 --> 01:13:34 And in a world where we have intelligent discussions, in a world where we have
01:13:34 --> 01:13:36 true political discourse,
01:13:36 --> 01:13:43 there's room to have a discussion about downsizing the federal government. I've had some ideas.
01:13:44 --> 01:13:48 Some of my friends that have been in politics a long time have had some ideas.
01:13:49 --> 01:13:55 I'm sure there's some former presidents, if not all of them, that are still around.
01:13:55 --> 01:14:00 Have had some ideas of what to change as far as government's concerned.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:04 And traditionally, because of demands, government has gotten bigger.
01:14:05 --> 01:14:10 And that's the deal. It's like we have evolved since 1789.
01:14:11 --> 01:14:20 So, yeah, there were only a handful, literal handful of secretaries and government agencies.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:27 But as the country grew, so did the government. And there have been some people,
01:14:27 --> 01:14:32 even back then, when the Constitution was being drafted, that were concerned about that.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:35 But, you know...
01:14:37 --> 01:14:43 Sister Lewis talked about stewardship. And so part of the call and part of the
01:14:43 --> 01:14:48 political debate has been to what level of stewardship should the U.S. government be in?
01:14:50 --> 01:14:55 And how big does it have to be or can we do it in a smaller way?
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 Those are good political discussions to have.
01:14:59 --> 01:15:07 I'm not trying to discredit that. But I am, however, pissed off about the way that it's happening.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:18 So when Elon first got this task, because it's not really an appointment,
01:15:18 --> 01:15:24 I guess you could say it's an appointment, but it's, again, we don't have a monarchy.
01:15:24 --> 01:15:28 So you just can't create a lordship and say, go handle that territory.
01:15:28 --> 01:15:30 That's not how it works here.
01:15:31 --> 01:15:37 I'll get I'm putting a pin on that because I'm gonna get back to that but it's
01:15:37 --> 01:15:43 like you know you can't since it's not an official agency you know there's no budget.
01:15:44 --> 01:15:48 So you know and there's no guidelines and,
01:15:49 --> 01:15:53 There's nobody checking to make sure that everything that they're doing is above
01:15:53 --> 01:15:56 board and within the confines of the law.
01:15:56 --> 01:16:00 So you basically got this private citizen who happens to be the richest person
01:16:00 --> 01:16:06 on the planet, bring 25 of his, quote unquote, best employees.
01:16:06 --> 01:16:11 And they're going into these different government agencies and just saying,
01:16:11 --> 01:16:12 hey, we need access to your data.
01:16:12 --> 01:16:15 Hey, we need access to this and da, da, da, da, da.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:20 And they're doing stuff. Now, Elon said he wasn't going to even have a report
01:16:20 --> 01:16:27 ready until our 250th anniversary. That was July the 4th, 2026.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:36 But it seems like what he intended to do was give a summary of what he did as
01:16:36 --> 01:16:39 opposed to a report about what needs to be fixed. Right.
01:16:40 --> 01:16:44 It's one thing to go in and have a fact-finding mission and say,
01:16:44 --> 01:16:49 ask some questions, compile some data, take a tour of the office.
01:16:50 --> 01:16:53 What does this job do? Who is that person? All that kind of stuff.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:58 Because I did that as an elected official. I went to all the state agencies
01:16:58 --> 01:17:02 in Mississippi and said, hey, look, you know, and just show me around and all this stuff.
01:17:02 --> 01:17:09 So when we had appropriations bills, I was able to vote in an educated manner.
01:17:09 --> 01:17:12 I knew about certain things, right?
01:17:12 --> 01:17:17 I knew that if we lost money in a particular agency, you know,
01:17:17 --> 01:17:23 or what impact it would have and, you know, where we needed to put more money
01:17:23 --> 01:17:25 in a particular agency, right?
01:17:25 --> 01:17:30 But he's not doing it. He's just going in and see what the nefarious part of
01:17:30 --> 01:17:38 it is, is that he's going after agencies that have a direct tie to his money, right?
01:17:39 --> 01:17:44 The Treasury, of course, right? Which means the IRS. He's gone after them.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:50 He went after, they say he's going to go in the Department of Defense.
01:17:50 --> 01:17:52 We'll wait and see on that.
01:17:52 --> 01:17:57 Although he's got car blocks to go in with Pete Hexteth as the secretary.
01:17:58 --> 01:18:06 But, you know, he's gotten rid of consumer finance, which is supposed to be the watchdog for us.
01:18:07 --> 01:18:11 He wants to get rid of that they've already made up their mind in the Department
01:18:11 --> 01:18:15 of Education so it doesn't matter what they do they just want to get rid of
01:18:15 --> 01:18:18 that so I guess he's not going to go in there,
01:18:19 --> 01:18:23 but then he went into USAID right the,
01:18:25 --> 01:18:32 our Agency for International Development, our soft diplomacy arm, right?
01:18:33 --> 01:18:37 And, you know, instead of going in with troops, we come in with money.
01:18:37 --> 01:18:40 Say, hey, we're going to help you with this thing. We're going to help you with that thing.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:48 If anything, USAID should have been funded more because I believe if we targeted
01:18:48 --> 01:18:54 a lot of the countries and some of the countries that we get immigrants from we've been donating to.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:02 But I think if we had done more, then maybe some of those people would have
01:19:02 --> 01:19:06 stopped in other countries and gotten jobs instead of having to come all the
01:19:06 --> 01:19:08 way to the United States to find an opportunity.
01:19:09 --> 01:19:10 That's a whole nother discussion.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:16 But it turns out the USA had some questions about Elon.
01:19:17 --> 01:19:24 They had an investigation going. And so basically he's just going in and he's
01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 been given the provision to settle scores.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:32 So he fits right into the Trump administration and the mindset that it's like
01:19:32 --> 01:19:34 we're going to pay everybody back.
01:19:34 --> 01:19:41 Now, he's got Pam Bundy and he's unfortunately about to get Cash Patel and he's
01:19:41 --> 01:19:45 got Tulsi Gabbard into national intelligence.
01:19:45 --> 01:19:53 So he's got his people in place now to do his damage, get his retribution,
01:19:53 --> 01:19:56 talking about President Trump, get his retribution, right?
01:19:56 --> 01:20:01 Because those people gave him those grief. And I guess Hex Def in the Department
01:20:01 --> 01:20:05 of Defense, because you had those generals who were basically telling Donald
01:20:05 --> 01:20:07 Trump, you can't do that.
01:20:07 --> 01:20:11 You can't shoot civilians. You can't just drop bombs anywhere you feel like it.
01:20:11 --> 01:20:18 There's got to be a rhyme and a reason to utilize our military instead of just
01:20:18 --> 01:20:25 going after people you don't like or don't agree with you, right? Like Canada.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:27 You just can't do that.
01:20:29 --> 01:20:34 So now that he's got Hegstuff in the area, I guess he can get rid of the generals,
01:20:34 --> 01:20:37 all the generals that would tell him no.
01:20:40 --> 01:20:46 And, yeah, it's, you know, so that just kind of pisses me off because it's like
01:20:46 --> 01:20:50 we, you know, this is not a reality show.
01:20:51 --> 01:20:58 This is the United States government. This is the government that makes decisions
01:20:58 --> 01:21:00 that could impact people's lives.
01:21:01 --> 01:21:04 Well, not could, that does impact people's lives.
01:21:05 --> 01:21:11 And if you make the wrong decision, it could be a very, very tragic consequence, right?
01:21:11 --> 01:21:15 When you start cutting off people's money for their health care,
01:21:15 --> 01:21:17 tragic consequences are going to happen.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:24 When you cut off aid where we're trying to stop disease and hunger in other
01:21:24 --> 01:21:28 parts of the world, there's going to be tragic consequences to that.
01:21:29 --> 01:21:34 And, you know, and especially if we're doing it with no authority.
01:21:35 --> 01:21:38 You know, the president of the United States is sitting there saying,
01:21:38 --> 01:21:40 well, I gave him the authority.
01:21:41 --> 01:21:46 But could you really? Right. Because we're supposed to have a couple of checks
01:21:46 --> 01:21:52 and balances to make sure that you don't go off the rails.
01:21:53 --> 01:22:00 And I guess that's where I'm really pissed off, because I grew up and I became
01:22:00 --> 01:22:06 involved in politics in an era where people still challenged their party leaders.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:12 Right. No matter how hard you work to get that person in a position during the
01:22:12 --> 01:22:19 election, when it came time to govern, if that person came up with an idea that you weren't cool with.
01:22:20 --> 01:22:27 Either you met with them privately or you gathered public support to stop it.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:32 Didn't matter if I was the state director for your presidential campaign.
01:22:33 --> 01:22:37 Didn't matter if I personally knocked on doors for you.
01:22:38 --> 01:22:44 Once we all got in positions and I'm in one branch of government and you're
01:22:44 --> 01:22:48 in the other branch, especially legislative as opposed to executive.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:53 And you coming out here with something that is like, I know that's going to
01:22:53 --> 01:22:58 be detrimental to my constituents, to my people, I got something to say about that.
01:22:58 --> 01:23:03 If I think you're doing something that might be illegal even,
01:23:05 --> 01:23:06 I'm going to say something about it.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:11 And I had contemporaries that had the same mindset, right?
01:23:12 --> 01:23:18 You know, you had a few sheep that like just wherever the shepherd goes,
01:23:18 --> 01:23:19 I'm going to follow. You know what I'm saying?
01:23:20 --> 01:23:27 And that could be a good thing or a bad thing. It just all depends on how capable the shepherd is, right?
01:23:28 --> 01:23:37 But you're not elected to blindly follow anybody because technically you're a leader.
01:23:37 --> 01:23:41 If you are elected to the state legislature in your state or you're elected
01:23:41 --> 01:23:43 to Congress, you're a leader.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:51 You represent a group of folks that nobody else represents in the nation. You are that person.
01:23:52 --> 01:23:55 If you're a member of the United States Senate, you're one of two people that
01:23:55 --> 01:23:56 represents a whole state.
01:23:57 --> 01:24:02 So it's like you have to have the best interest of your people.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:08 And if the president of the United States is saying something that's not in
01:24:08 --> 01:24:12 the best interest of your people, it's one thing to talk about it in the cloakroom.
01:24:12 --> 01:24:17 It's one thing to talk about it on the subway because they actually have a subway under the cap.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:21 There's one thing to talk about it while you're having dinner or lunch,
01:24:21 --> 01:24:30 but it's a whole nother conversation to have it where the American people hear it, right?
01:24:33 --> 01:24:39 If you've got problems, then you need to tell them, I'm not cool with that.
01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 And you need to tell the American people, I'm not cool with that.
01:24:42 --> 01:24:48 And you need to vote accordingly, right? But we don't have those kind of people.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:56 And that's what really drives me nuts. We are electing people that don't have
01:24:56 --> 01:25:03 the courage of their own convictions, that don't have the courage to represent our best interests.
01:25:03 --> 01:25:10 All they want to do is cater to one person so they can get his favor and think
01:25:10 --> 01:25:15 that they can translate that into money or whatever to convince us to vote for them again and again.
01:25:16 --> 01:25:22 And so it's one thing to ask leaders to have accountability,
01:25:22 --> 01:25:25 but we have to have some accountability amongst ourselves.
01:25:26 --> 01:25:33 Leadership is not electing somebody to be somebody's pet, somebody's toy.
01:25:34 --> 01:25:38 We need free thinkers in leadership positions.
01:25:38 --> 01:25:44 We need creative thinkers in leadership positions. We need people that might
01:25:44 --> 01:25:51 even tell us, hey, guys, I know y'all want this, but this is a better idea.
01:25:51 --> 01:25:54 Here's why. Right?
01:25:54 --> 01:25:58 You know, I want a representative to be able to come to me and say,
01:25:59 --> 01:26:02 no, we can't get you that community center.
01:26:03 --> 01:26:08 We can't get you that. We can't put extra money into the police force right
01:26:08 --> 01:26:10 now. We just can't do that.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:13 Instead of lying and saying, oh, yeah, we're going to do all this.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:17 And yeah, yeah, I'm listening to you and all that stuff. And basically lie to us.
01:26:18 --> 01:26:23 Right. We want people to tell us the truth, even if it hurts us.
01:26:23 --> 01:26:27 Our feelings not harm us but hurt our feelings.
01:26:31 --> 01:26:37 Because, you know, we, I mean, Black folks, we've been dealing with this a long time, right?
01:26:37 --> 01:26:42 When we get into the discussion about reparations, that's our classic example.
01:26:42 --> 01:26:48 We've asked our representatives to do it, and, you know, a lot of them go in
01:26:48 --> 01:26:53 saying, yeah, we're going to do that, and then it just hasn't been done, right?
01:26:53 --> 01:27:00 But I respect the folks that make the effort and at least tell us what the roadblocks
01:27:00 --> 01:27:05 were, as opposed to just ignoring us or lying about it, right?
01:27:05 --> 01:27:10 Or just blindly following a president that's not in favor of it.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:17 And don't give us any explanation other than, we all need to pay attention to fearless leaders. No.
01:27:18 --> 01:27:22 I just want you to think about something. In Michigan, right,
01:27:23 --> 01:27:29 in Michigan, the people of Michigan voted for Donald Trump to be president,
01:27:29 --> 01:27:33 but they voted for Elaine Slotkin to be the U.S. senator.
01:27:34 --> 01:27:38 In North Carolina, they voted for Donald Trump.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:44 But for all of the statewide offices, the North Carolina statewide offices,
01:27:44 --> 01:27:46 they voted for all the Democrats. Right.
01:27:47 --> 01:27:54 People are intelligent enough to make decisions with the information they're
01:27:54 --> 01:27:58 provided and with the level of trust that they have been given.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:04 Right. For whatever reason, people thought that Donald Trump would do a better job than Kamala Harris.
01:28:04 --> 01:28:08 I disagree with that. And I think my point is being validated.
01:28:08 --> 01:28:12 However, people made a decision based on the information they received.
01:28:13 --> 01:28:19 Right? But in races closest to them where they had more of a relationship with
01:28:19 --> 01:28:22 people, they voted for the people they trusted more.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:27 They voted for the people they knew were going to get the job at the more local level.
01:28:27 --> 01:28:32 Somebody that they've actually met or talked to or seen on local television,
01:28:32 --> 01:28:36 read about in a local newspaper, heard on the local radio station.
01:28:37 --> 01:28:39 They voted for those folks.
01:28:41 --> 01:28:49 So information and trust and the people that they elected at the more local
01:28:49 --> 01:28:53 thing are people that are emerging as leaders.
01:28:54 --> 01:28:57 Right. And the definition, what I'm talking about, American leaders,
01:28:57 --> 01:29:04 people that understand that what folks like Donald Trump and others are saying
01:29:04 --> 01:29:06 as our weakness is actually our strength.
01:29:06 --> 01:29:12 People are embracing those who speak truth to power, right?
01:29:14 --> 01:29:22 It's part of our DNA that we want folks to encourage and uplift us, right?
01:29:23 --> 01:29:27 Now, a lot of times we get caught up in catchy slogans and themes and all that kind of stuff.
01:29:28 --> 01:29:31 You know, that's why advertising works. That's why marketing works.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:37 But in our soul, in our gut, we want people to inspire us.
01:29:37 --> 01:29:41 We want people to give us hope. That's what we look for.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:45 Most politicians try to scare the bejesus out of us.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:51 But the ones that emerge as historic leaders, the ones that emerge as American
01:29:51 --> 01:29:54 leaders are the ones that truly inspire us.
01:29:56 --> 01:30:03 And they have the courage to stand up to their friends when it's this time.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:04 I remember we talked about friendship.
01:30:05 --> 01:30:11 If they're truly a friend, if they're truly an ally, even, because there's a difference.
01:30:12 --> 01:30:17 They will respect when you say no to them, right?
01:30:17 --> 01:30:25 But when you have somebody who is too narcissistic to accept no as an answer, that's a problem.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:29 That's a problem at the local level. That's a problem at the state level.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:34 That's a problem at the county level. And that's sure as hell is a problem at the national level.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:41 We've got to have people who understand that folks ain't going to agree with them all the time.
01:30:42 --> 01:30:49 And you're not trying to use your resources to do them harm when they disagree with you.
01:30:49 --> 01:30:55 You're not trying to fire them. You're not trying to turn people out to kill them.
01:30:56 --> 01:31:00 You're not doing that. You just understand that on this particular issue,
01:31:00 --> 01:31:04 at this particular time, we don't see eye to eye on it, and we keep it moving.
01:31:05 --> 01:31:09 Even if I'm the president and I want to see this done, if the majority of my
01:31:09 --> 01:31:11 party is like, Mr. President, that's not a good idea.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:17 Keep it moving. Now, I'm going to try to convince them to go along with me,
01:31:17 --> 01:31:21 but at this moment, that's not happening.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:24 Next issue. Keep it moving.
01:31:24 --> 01:31:29 Don't be like, oh, I'm going to primary all these folks, and I'm going to make
01:31:29 --> 01:31:34 sure that their lives are hell, and I hope that all my followers swat them and
01:31:34 --> 01:31:36 all that. That's craziness.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:42 There's fancy names for it like fascism and authoritarianism and all that.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:45 It's just crazy that you can't accept no as an answer.
01:31:46 --> 01:31:52 And we have a whole branch of government that acts like they can't say no to the president.
01:31:54 --> 01:31:57 Now, there's a group of individuals that are in the opposite party that are
01:31:57 --> 01:32:00 saying no, but everybody's like, oh, that's just partisan.
01:32:01 --> 01:32:06 But there are people in the Republican Party that know that what Donald Trump
01:32:06 --> 01:32:13 is doing is wrong and they don't have the courage to challenge. And that is a problem.
01:32:14 --> 01:32:19 I have lived long enough where I've seen Democratic presidents and Republican presidents.
01:32:20 --> 01:32:26 I have disagreed with some of the Democrats, and I've agreed with some of the Republicans.
01:32:27 --> 01:32:32 I've lived long enough to engage in that. But I've never been in a situation
01:32:32 --> 01:32:36 where it's like, well, Eric, you know, the governor said this.
01:32:36 --> 01:32:43 You got to go along with it. The speaker said this. We got to do that. No, we don't. I don't.
01:32:43 --> 01:32:49 Not if it's bad for the people I represent. No, I'm not doing it.
01:32:49 --> 01:32:55 You know, now there have been times where it's like, all right,
01:32:55 --> 01:32:58 this is the way we're going to go.
01:32:58 --> 01:33:09 You go along with it. But trust me that my concerns were addressed and voiced even more so. Right.
01:33:10 --> 01:33:14 Because that's how politics works. That's how it's supposed to work.
01:33:15 --> 01:33:19 You're supposed to challenge where things aren't right.
01:33:20 --> 01:33:28 And to let Elon Musk run around and just have his way, yeah, that's not right.
01:33:29 --> 01:33:36 And I think it's insulting when you have members of Congress who have chosen
01:33:36 --> 01:33:41 not to be courageous, but to just follow along to get along,
01:33:41 --> 01:33:44 to question other members' intelligence.
01:33:46 --> 01:33:52 You need to look in the mirror and not only try to figure out where you lack
01:33:52 --> 01:33:54 intelligence, where you lack courage.
01:33:54 --> 01:33:58 You need to be introspective. You don't need to lash out at other people because
01:33:58 --> 01:34:03 you don't understand where they get the courage, where they have the intellect
01:34:03 --> 01:34:05 to challenge something that is wrong.
01:34:06 --> 01:34:14 You don't have the license to do that. You need to figure out why am I in lockstep with them now?
01:34:16 --> 01:34:20 If you're a bad person, then you are who you are.
01:34:20 --> 01:34:26 And eventually, I hope that the people that keep sending you to Washington figure
01:34:26 --> 01:34:31 that out and get somebody else in there that will try not to do any harm,
01:34:31 --> 01:34:36 that will actually have a backbone and have a mind of their own. Right?
01:34:37 --> 01:34:41 But we can only hope. But I really,
01:34:41 --> 01:34:47 really think that you don't have the license until you do some introspection
01:34:47 --> 01:34:52 that you should criticize anybody else's intelligence because the majority of
01:34:52 --> 01:34:57 the population doesn't equate you with the word intelligence.
01:34:58 --> 01:35:04 Right? Yeah. So if you're following people blindly, that's not intelligence.
01:35:05 --> 01:35:09 If you're going along to get along, that's not courage.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:14 You know, if you decide, well, I'm not going to run for election,
01:35:14 --> 01:35:19 so now I'm just going to be the stick in the mud and challenge all these things and all that stuff.
01:35:20 --> 01:35:22 We have to accept that.
01:35:23 --> 01:35:27 But that's not really courageous. It's convenient.
01:35:28 --> 01:35:37 We don't really need elected officials that base their whole political philosophy around convenience.
01:35:38 --> 01:35:39 We need courage.
01:35:40 --> 01:35:47 We need people to step up and say, hey, that's wrong. You can't do that.
01:35:49 --> 01:35:52 But maybe we won't get that for another two years.
01:35:54 --> 01:36:00 So, we have to continue to challenge, we, constituents,
01:36:01 --> 01:36:07 those of us who are not elected, we have to challenge, we have to stand in the
01:36:07 --> 01:36:11 gap, we have to repair that breach, right?
01:36:13 --> 01:36:19 We get elected officials to do their job. It's up to us.
01:36:19 --> 01:36:23 And ultimately, it's always up to us, right?
01:36:23 --> 01:36:31 But it's not as much of a mountain to climb when we have leadership in the places,
01:36:32 --> 01:36:37 the halls of government expressing our sentiment, you know, so,
01:36:38 --> 01:36:40 or at least a majority of them.
01:36:40 --> 01:36:45 Well, I shouldn't say at least, or it would be better if we had a majority of
01:36:45 --> 01:36:46 them, but we've got a few.
01:36:47 --> 01:36:51 So, we've got to stop electing people like that.
01:36:53 --> 01:37:00 And as long as there's no elected officials complaining about what's going on
01:37:00 --> 01:37:03 in Washington, then we have to be the ones to challenge it.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:07 You know, and people are joking. I hear other podcasters talking about,
01:37:07 --> 01:37:08 oh, I'm going to be on the list.
01:37:08 --> 01:37:12 And, oh, yeah, they're going to take us off the air and all that stuff.
01:37:13 --> 01:37:15 And they're joking because they're like going, really?
01:37:16 --> 01:37:18 Is that dude that petty? He may be.
01:37:19 --> 01:37:24 But the beauty is these folks are going to keep doing what they're doing,
01:37:24 --> 01:37:25 and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.
01:37:26 --> 01:37:31 And we're going to challenge stuff that's wrong. We're going to speak up for our people.
01:37:32 --> 01:37:34 We're going to speak up for the American people.
01:37:35 --> 01:37:42 And hopefully, sooner rather than later, we'll start getting elected officials to do the same thing.
01:37:43 --> 01:37:45 Thank you for listening. Until next time.
01:37:47 --> 01:38:33 Music.
Related Episodes
Fall If You Will, But Rise You Must Featuring Samuel Ashworth and Dr. Ted Williams III
In this episode, Samuel Ashworth, Professor of Creative Writing at George Washington University, talks about his new book, The Death and Life of August Sweeney, in an innovative way. Then, Dr. Ted Williams III, a Chicago educator, actor, and activist, discusses the importance of the arts in activism...
A Quiet Life & How To Raise A Citizen Featuring Will Cooper, Michael McKinley and Lindsey Cormack
In this episode, friend of the podcast Will Cooper appears with his collaborator Michael McKinley to talk about the new cyber thriller book they co-authored, A Quiet Life. Then author and political science professor Lindsey Cormack discusses the importance of raising informed citizens in our democra...
The 6888th & Title IX Featuring Kevin Hymel and Kristin Couch
In this episode, Military Historian Kevin Hymel talks about how his article on the 6888th Central Postal Directory Battalion became a Tyler Perry-directed motion picture. Then Kristin Couch, Associate Director for Title IX & Compliance at Spelman College, explains the importance of Title IX prog...