[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of a Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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[00:01:05] Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoyed this episode as well.
[00:01:23] Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
[00:01:41] This podcast is very, very satisfying to me. I hope that it is edifying and entertaining to you as a listening audience but it is very satisfying to me because two of the guests that are going to be on are people that I've been trying to get on for over a year.
[00:01:59] I've been working on the scheduling conflicts or whatever it just wasn't able to pull it off. But now only did I get one of them, I got both up.
[00:02:09] Thanks to my good friend, A.O. Sakai over at Universal Roy Publications. We have a third guest who follows in the tradition of guests that I've been bringing on who have been working in the venue for a very, very long time, who have been doing the work in the community and may not get all the national recognition that some people get but nevertheless the work they're doing is important.
[00:02:35] So I hope that you can, as an audience appreciate the guests that are going to be on today. But before we get into all of that, it is time for a moment of news. We're Grace G.
[00:02:53] Thanks, Eric. The UN Security Council adopted an immediate ceasefire resolution between Israel and Hamas with the US abstaining from the vote to allow passage.
[00:03:11] A large container ship hit a bridge in Baltimore, causing part of it to collapse into the Patapsco River. Six road construction workers died and two workers were rescued.
[00:03:21] Donald Trump won a legal bid to pause a $454 million civil fraud judgment against him by posting a $175 million bond preventing asset seizure.
[00:03:32] Meanwhile, his criminal trial related to hush money payments to an adult entertainment star will begin on April 15th.
[00:03:40] The US Congress passed a $1.2 trillion budget bill avoiding appartial government shutdown. Representative Mike Gallagher announced his resignation from Congress effective April 19th further narrowing the Republican's majority in the House.
[00:03:55] Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski expressed that she cannot support Donald Trump as the party's nominee for the 2024 presidential election.
[00:04:04] A Georgia judge allowed Donald Trump and eight co-defendants to appeal a ruling that kept lead prosecutor Fanny Willis on their criminal election subversion case.
[00:04:13] In Mississippi, six former law enforcement officers received sentences of 10 to 40 years in prison after pleading guilty to the torture and sexual abuse of two black men.
[00:04:24] No criminal charges will be filed in the death of non-binary Oklahoma teenager next Benedict, who died by suicide after a school fight.
[00:04:32] Alabama governor Kay Ivys signed a law banning diversity equity and inclusion programs in public schools.
[00:04:38] Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a law banning children under 14 from social media and Tennessee governor Bill Lee signed the Elvis Act into law protecting artists from unauthorized use of their likeness by artificial intelligence.
[00:04:51] The CDC issued a health advisory urging vaccination after 62 measles cases were reported in the US and former US Senator Joe Lieberman died at the age of 82.
[00:05:03] I am Grace G and this has been a moment of news.
[00:05:08] Alright, thank you Grace for that moment of news.
[00:05:18] And now it is time for our first guest.
[00:05:23] At Camini, Uwan is a public theologian and international human rights activist and co author of the 2023 NAACP Image Award nominated book Truths Table Black Women's Musings on Life, Love and Liberation.
[00:05:42] She co-hosts the award winning podcast Truths Table and get in the word with Truths Table.
[00:05:49] Uwan is a 2022 Aspen Ideas Festival Fellow and a 2023 Special Advisor for the Aspen Institute's racial justice and religion collective.
[00:06:01] In addition to being an NAACP Image Award nominated author for outstanding literary work,
[00:06:08] Echemy is also a contributing writer for a hallmark, mahogany and a charter member of the international civil working group of the permanent form for people of African descent at the United Nations.
[00:06:21] Her writings have been published in the Atlantic to watch it in post, the Huffington Post Black voices and Christianity today to name a few.
[00:06:32] Echemy, Echemy has appeared on MSNBC the Grille and her insights are quoted by NPR CNN in New York Times to watch it in post and the New Yorker among other publications.
[00:06:48] Echemy is a very important and important person in the world as one who is passionate about theology, and committee has a fierce commitment to the gospel and its implications for issues pertaining to reparations, racial injustice, anti-black racism and white supremacy.
[00:07:02] Echemy believes that theology can and does speak to our present day's culture, social and political issues.
[00:07:10] In addition to the results she often speaks or pines and writes about the aforementioned for various online publications.
[00:07:17] Echemy's voice has been sampled on the craze album, all things worked together and show Baraka's the narrative.
[00:07:24] She enjoys spending quality time with loved ones and working out in her spare time.
[00:07:29] As a self-proclaimed part-time fascinista, she has a penchant for thrift shopping.
[00:07:36] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast at committee U1.
[00:07:44] Alright, a committee U1. How you doing sister? You doing good?
[00:08:01] I'm glad to be with you Eric. Thanks for having me.
[00:08:04] I am so glad to have you sister. I tried to catch you last year when everything was going really awesome for you with the book and the nomination at the end of LACP,
[00:08:17] image awards and all that. And you were like, Eric, I'm too busy. I got too much stuff going on.
[00:08:23] That's right. We had it. That's right. It was about this time last year we had the image award. So it was just getting hecked.
[00:08:29] I'm glad I was able to get you because you've been a warrior out here and thanks to LinkedIn and some other platforms
[00:08:41] you're starting to get your shine a little bit. The United Nations knows you really well, but maybe not the general public.
[00:08:52] So I wanted to kind of get you on. Thank you.
[00:08:56] One of the things I do with guests is that I start off with a quote and it's something either maybe that you said,
[00:09:04] something that you may have written or something related to the work.
[00:09:09] So your quote is, truth telling is an act of love and love is an act of spiritual warfare in a world built on lies
[00:09:21] and the express hatred of black lives. What does that quote mean to you?
[00:09:26] Yeah, so I believe that quote if I remember correctly comes from the book at Coal for Truth Table Black from his Museums of Life, Love and Liberation Act.
[00:09:36] I think it was from the decolonizing the Set Cloship chapter, but I would be chapter, my third chapter somewhere right there.
[00:09:46] In the book, I wrote four of them and so yeah, and so I think that in a lot of ways this America is addicted to myths
[00:09:59] and addicted to formulating myths. And as a late, really entangled in a lot of propaganda.
[00:10:08] And so instead of embracing truth and seeing it, you know, as a form of love, they would rather devise lies.
[00:10:18] So there would rather devise myths that are based on lies, a history that is honorable.
[00:10:26] That is rooted in a hatred that I don't think people would probably wouldn't want to say it that way but that's true because these lies are what keep the mechanisms of oppression going and the wheels of injustice turning over the backs of black lives.
[00:10:46] Black lives, brown lives, indigenous lies because if you have to, because if you tell the truth then you have to acknowledge our humanity.
[00:10:55] And if you tell the truth and that means you have to do right by us, there's a responsibility there and people would rather.
[00:11:05] Lauren Hill said as many years ago, the rapper, well, rapper singer, you know, artist, let's say.
[00:11:13] Lauren Hill said many things that people prefer fantasy, you know, but what they really need is reality.
[00:11:22] And so time and time again when they're given the choice of fantasy or reality, they would rather choose reality.
[00:11:29] I'm sorry, choose fantasy and create fantasies and the way they do that is through myths and lies.
[00:11:36] So yeah, truth telling is it's key to my work. It's key. I think that's the way that we will get free by telling the truth to ourselves and to one another.
[00:11:47] So you describe yourself as an anti-racist public theologian. What drove or compelled you to be a theologian? And why do you do work that in your words, put your life on the line by making people look in the mirror and face the racist reflection staring back at them?
[00:12:09] Yeah, so yeah, well I didn't do this life. It shows me. I didn't have to be public theologian. I didn't even know what that was.
[00:12:20] I just felt like I was just following God's call on my life which I was in corporate America before I started doing my work as a public theologian and lost my job.
[00:12:31] I read my whole sales team today before my birthday which it was a very traumatic way. It was a very traumatic departure if anybody's ever lost the job suddenly and got a pink slip or got laid off, you know how traumatic that can be.
[00:12:47] And I was doing well financially and corporate America living in California, which is where I'm from originally.
[00:12:55] Yeah, I just sense that the Lord was wanting me to do ministry but I was a little baffled at first because I was already very much involved in my local church at that point.
[00:13:06] So what else must have been beyond that? And just through prayer, I just felt like Lord was leading me to go to seminary but I didn't know why because I didn't feel like I was called to be a pastor.
[00:13:15] I didn't feel like this burning to preach the word in the traditional ways that we understand it so I was like okay, I'll just go.
[00:13:23] I'm going to just follow and you know what I feel the Lord is leading me to do. And so I went to seminary and when I went to seminary Michael Brown was lynched in Ferguson and that really, and you know, you know, that really was the the precipice.
[00:13:47] I'm sorry, that's really the precedent that really got the black lives matter movement going in the ways in which we had experienced it under Obama.
[00:13:59] You know at that time and so while there at that seminary, it was unfortunately experienced a lot of racial trauma being the only black woman in my MDF program during the last month.
[00:14:14] So you know, it's like I'm sitting in the last room and then I see what you're posting on Facebook. Like this is really what you think of us. You don't think we're human or you don't think we're human in the same way you are human, you know, white man or white woman.
[00:14:27] And so that was just wild to me. And so I really just started getting into that work because I was fighting the white supremacists, powers that be at my own institution and then people will call me you know to come and speak or to write an article and and that's how my for way into public theology started.
[00:14:52] And so yeah, it was kind of it was by force. You know, in that case.
[00:14:57] Yeah.
[00:15:00] What progress do you see towards us becoming a nation free of white supremacy or do you see any progress at all?
[00:15:11] I don't see progress. I see fascism, I see white supremacy, you know, recalcitrant, you know on white supremacy and race, you know, especially post George Floyd.
[00:15:28] You know, I yeah, I mean with the the the the evisceration of DEI, you know jobs and programs. And however you feel about the EI right, you know, there's people to the left that are like, I didn't do much.
[00:15:40] If you put it the right thing, it's so radical, right? So wherever you land, you know, that being that those programs and those jobs, you know, being eliminated in the way that they are.
[00:15:53] And then there's a lot of the things that we are absolutely not progressing. Book bands, right? Our history or our black history being erased and being prohibited from being taught, not being able to teach slavery.
[00:16:08] The real truth about slavery in schools is yeah, it's a regression. So I'm virtually I don't see a progression. I wish I did but I don't you know.
[00:16:20] So how hard does that make your work?
[00:16:25] Well, you know honestly I think even in the last year probably even when I last described myself as anti racist public theologian, I am an anti racist, you know, I always have been.
[00:16:39] So honestly I see my work much more, how can I say much more centered in the ideology of pan-Africanism. So I don't even really which is subversive of course, you know to, you know, to racism and white supremacy absolutely.
[00:17:01] But I don't see myself necessarily going toe to toe in racist white spaces right to go and pull the dignity and humanity of black people. I did do that for a time, but now I see my work to be much more gender when I'm from a pan-Africanism lens, you know.
[00:17:21] So it's difficult work for sure right because we're still trying to do a lot of work to get the equity, to get the rights, to get the reparations, to get all the things, you know that owed to us.
[00:17:32] But I'm doing it from a different frame in which is not I'm not trying to teach or really convince, you know white people per se, you know in a very explicit way. It's a little bit more subversive now that I'm working from
[00:17:49] more of a pan-Africanist frame, especially with regard to work on reparations and the work that I do at UN and within the international civil society working that I'm a part of.
[00:18:01] So you're basically saying you don't go into the lions then too much anymore?
[00:18:07] Not really, yeah. It's yeah, it's shifted and you know what the pandemic shifted it too. Yeah.
[00:18:13] Yeah, the pandemic shift because there were times where I'm sorry, pre-pandemic where there were a lot of conferences and things about race, racial reconciliation, all these things.
[00:18:26] But those conferences are, they're almost nonexistent it seems or maybe I'm just not in that world anymore so I'm not aware,
[00:18:34] but it doesn't seem like those conferences are happening like that in that same freaking 17 and 18, you know, and into the 19.
[00:18:45] You know so that's changed too, but also yeah my work has just shifted I just think it's more generative for me to work toward building something.
[00:18:58] And in building something you do inadvertently have to tear down, you know but I think it's I found it to be more generative to be building something instead of just trying to tear this down and I'm glad I shifted because people, you know, because this would be for George Floyd that I was doing.
[00:19:15] Like some very concrete anti-racism work and post-George Floyd people have doubled down on their racism right there was a small window where oh people seem to, you know, they showed.
[00:19:27] A brief enlightenment where we know it turned out to be, you know false, you know in that in that respect and so I'm glad I'm grateful for the shift honestly I'm grateful for the shift.
[00:19:42] So how is the concept of God word hierarchy defined your work?
[00:19:50] Yeah, yes so in the book I talk about thanks for reading the book how about that?
[00:19:57] Well I think it's a step one okay thank you for reading the book.
[00:20:02] I think that it is antithetical and I think that it is a complete reversal of the harm that racial stratification does and white supremacy does right because in that wicked ideology it holds right that white people, you know, are more superior.
[00:20:28] And that they themselves are the standard over against black people, brown people, you know everybody does not white right but especially but at levels to this right.
[00:20:38] And so with black indigenous people being on the bottom and so a God word hierarchy seeks to honor the intrinsic dignity and work that each human being has
[00:20:55] and we look and so we look to God who created all of us in God's image so that we might honor the dignity and worth of each other so that we can really see one another love our neighbors as ourselves right because we really can't love our neighbors without loving ourselves.
[00:21:15] And so the God word hierarchy helps us to resist the temptation to Lord our power over others to oppress other people to restrict their agency to use people as a means of gain instead of seeing them for the amazing and multifaceted, multi-dimensional human beings that are in the same way.
[00:21:44] Human beings that they were created to be with purpose and with with intention, you know by God and so it helps to start ways away and it ethic it helps to counter and combat white supremacy.
[00:22:03] Yeah because one of the things I like the way that you explained it in simple terms was that God gave us dominion over everything but each other.
[00:22:17] And so we're supposed to be living these lives as supposed to be godly the last thing we should be doing is subjugating other human beings.
[00:22:31] That's right. Explain the concept of decolonized discipleship.
[00:22:39] Yeah so yeah that book was whoo yeah that I'm sorry that chapter was written because you know initially I think I even explained it in the book actually.
[00:22:52] I was asked to write an article for this publication and I wrote it and the little blog article I wrote was decolonized discipleship.
[00:23:03] And it was a white evangelical magazine and I was really coming you know for the white capitalistic Jesus that they so often law and worship and describe knowingly or unknowingly.
[00:23:24] And so they didn't want to run the article and I was okay but you know I got a call and they didn't want to run the article because there were there were actually quite a lot of black Christians in that space in that particular organization.
[00:23:40] And so for me when I was doing that type of spot you know the nose anti racism work I was always going into those spaces and writing into those spaces in order for the uplift and education of black people.
[00:23:59] And yet in turn that would still edify and help to shape reshape you know it convicts you know the racist white people in those spaces too right so it was really a double-edged sword in that you know or two for one if you want to think about it in that way.
[00:24:13] But that was always my purpose was to help to wake up or wake it up as a kid say you know wake up the white supremacist and help you know the black folks you know see that and be able to know like hey don't let these people colonize you like there's nothing wrong you know with your hair there's nothing wrong.
[00:24:37] With the way that you emote during worship there's nothing wrong with your figure like you know like these are not like God has said is good God made us you know good you know God made us good and so I find that's an issue with colonized discipleship right they'll try to have black people in those spaces assimilate toward white norms
[00:25:06] and white ideals and so decolonize discipleship is trying to show black people and people of color whoever you know picks up the book that who you are and who God has made you to be in and of itself in your personhood is good you know it is it's the and helping them to discern you know like no what is actually the sinful part here that needs to you know that we need to read ourselves from
[00:25:35] what is the good that we need to retain the good has nothing to do with your the good is your hair the good is your nose the good is your your melanin you know the the sin is the way in which we seek to harm one another the sin is where we try to oppress one another right the sin is where we slander and and and harm each other or hit you know whatever you want to you know
[00:25:57] the list goes on and off right and so that's the reason why I wrote that that is what I mean by this type decolonize discipleship so really helping people to disentangle white supremacy
[00:26:09] and the white supremacist additives that are placed on the gospel in those white conservative spaces so that they can truly speed the brown skin Jewish Palestinian God man Jesus Christ
[00:26:25] yeah I thought about when I read that I thought about my church so I grew up Lutheran I did you yeah I was a Lutheran church Missouri Senate and who okay and so and so in our church we we had a gospel choir right
[00:26:49] and and because we had a gospel choir we made the front page of the magazine because that was like something you know very unheard of right and then they found out that the other black Lutheran churches in Chicago also had gospel choirs because we would have concerts together at each other's churches
[00:27:14] and you know but one of the things they were trying to highlight was you know the mission work right that you know when it for Lutherans to reach out to black folks this is part of the experience as far as the testimonies and the response and call and all that kind of stuff call the I call a response yeah yeah
[00:27:36] and so you know I just thought about that and I was like you know here I am high school kid and we shaking up the whole church you know yeah and then I ended up being it and that shouldn't be shaken that should just be celebrating and I think that's beautiful yeah
[00:27:55] yeah they treated us like a celebration you know put us on the covers off of the magazine and stuff highlight it
[00:28:04] you know it was like yeah we they are on the covered we were in our choir robes marching down the middle just church you know so
[00:28:14] In the book of Isaiah, it challenges us to be repairs of the breach.
[00:28:21] How can reparations in America repair the generation of breach created by white supremacy?
[00:28:27] And what does reparations look like to you?
[00:28:31] Yeah, so yeah I see the issue of reparations firstly as a spiritual matter because there
[00:28:42] was a violation in order for slavery to take place in order for you to rip the curtains
[00:28:49] away from their land and from their people in order to beat human beings.
[00:28:57] You know, as if they are chattel just like that chattel, treat them even worse than
[00:29:02] chattel, you have to dehumanize them.
[00:29:06] You have to see them as less than.
[00:29:08] You have to diminish their work, which is a violation of the image of God within, you
[00:29:16] know, on fellow human beings.
[00:29:18] And so I see it as a spiritual violation.
[00:29:22] And so I believe that reparations, the way I see it, and I'm advocating for global and
[00:29:32] federal reparations because I'm grateful and I'm pardoned by the local movement
[00:29:38] that I'm grateful to work with my comrades are doing.
[00:29:42] But oftentimes when it comes down to it they end up because of the bureaucracy and the politics
[00:29:50] here in America.
[00:29:52] And the fact that because America is so racist, this country will seldom or rarely ever
[00:30:00] approve a policy that will only benefit—that will only remediate, you know, and
[00:30:08] benefit black people.
[00:30:11] That's why we don't have blue lawn cans, blue lawn debt cancellation yet.
[00:30:15] That's why we just don't have Medicare for all.
[00:30:20] That is why affirmative action has been taken away.
[00:30:23] I mean, let's go on and on.
[00:30:25] And so for me, I see reparations—I believe it has to be a global and there's a movement
[00:30:31] toward that global and federal in order to really remedy the harm done, you know, to
[00:30:38] our people on the continent and into diaspora comprehensively.
[00:30:43] Right?
[00:30:44] You can only do so much on this side too.
[00:30:45] So there's not—you can never really compensate for that harm.
[00:30:49] But to me within that reparations packet, it would be or a package, it would be land,
[00:30:58] you know, it would be free education.
[00:31:02] It would be free therapy, trauma therapy to address generational trauma.
[00:31:10] It would be the options of repatriation, you know, if African diasporans want to go
[00:31:19] back, you know, and we are all Africans in my framework and estimation, if they want
[00:31:24] to go back, you know.
[00:31:27] It would be all of that and a check, of course.
[00:31:30] That goes without saying.
[00:31:33] But yeah, and so much more, you know, that's in law.
[00:31:37] That would absolutely—absolutely—gold, born, federal level, cover reparations package.
[00:31:49] I like—you know, I think we would need, right?
[00:31:52] So yeah, you know, the movement has been encouraging, but it has been discouraging because when
[00:31:57] it comes down to it, it's not quite materializing in the ways that it's been announced, you
[00:32:04] know, and pronounced if that makes sense.
[00:32:06] You know, so that's the way I see it, and that's what I push for.
[00:32:15] Yeah.
[00:32:18] You struggled like many of us during the pandemic.
[00:32:23] Since then, you have written the best-selling award-nominated book and you co-host an
[00:32:28] award-winning podcast, Shadow to your partner, Dr. Christina Evanson.
[00:32:35] What message of affirmation and encouragement would you like to share with the audience?
[00:32:43] Yeah, I would just say that if you have clarity and you're really clear on what you feel
[00:32:51] that you—your purpose is and what you're meant to do here, I say go forward.
[00:32:57] You know, go forward and do it.
[00:33:00] Do it use wisdom?
[00:33:01] Of course, if you need to keep your full-time job and work on your passion and purpose
[00:33:07] on the side, then do that.
[00:33:10] And I think at least for me being a woman of faith, my thing is always the need to pray,
[00:33:17] and the need to get discernment and wisdom from God and what to do.
[00:33:24] And if you don't know your purpose, absolutely pray.
[00:33:26] You know, I didn't always know my purpose when I went to seminary.
[00:33:30] I didn't know why I was going but I was very clear that the Lord wanted me to go.
[00:33:34] But I didn't know why I was going because I was like, I don't want to be a pastor.
[00:33:37] I didn't feel a call to preach.
[00:33:38] So I didn't—you know, it's like I was very confused.
[00:33:41] Like, to me, I was like seminaries for pastors.
[00:33:42] So why am I going?
[00:33:45] But I went forward anyway and I believe that God gives us just enough light for each step
[00:33:50] that we take.
[00:33:51] Right?
[00:33:52] God doesn't—you know, I guess we're all good.
[00:33:55] Does not give us the full blueprint, right?
[00:33:57] Because if we saw it, we would be scared and we would run the other way like Jonah.
[00:34:01] But we—God gives us enough light for each step so that we can, you know, see God's
[00:34:08] provision and providence in each step that we take.
[00:34:12] So if you don't know your purpose, my advice is for you to pray.
[00:34:18] You know, and that God will reveal that to ask friends that truly know you, friends
[00:34:21] of family that truly know you to see about the gifts and the skills that they see in
[00:34:28] you.
[00:34:29] That can also help us point us in the direction of our purpose.
[00:34:33] And then if you do know your purpose, I say start going after it.
[00:34:37] You know, start going after it.
[00:34:39] All right.
[00:34:40] So—
[00:34:41] You just really need to make room for you.
[00:34:42] Oh, I'm sorry.
[00:34:43] I didn't mean to cut you off.
[00:34:44] Oh no, you're okay.
[00:34:46] Um, so we're at the part of the interview where you get the plug stuff.
[00:34:52] So there's—you know, you're still trying to get people to buy the book and doesn't
[00:34:57] have to do podcast, how people can get in touch with you.
[00:35:01] This is your turn.
[00:35:02] Yeah.
[00:35:03] Yeah, thank you.
[00:35:04] So yeah, thank you so much for having me, Eric.
[00:35:06] Um, yeah, I got a lot of things going on.
[00:35:09] You can always follow me on social media at Sister Theology S-I-S-T-A-T-H-E-O-L-O-G-Y on
[00:35:19] Twitter, on Facebook and on Instagram.
[00:35:23] And then you can follow my podcast at Truths table on all of those social media platforms
[00:35:30] as well.
[00:35:31] Our new season is starting, our season eight is starting on March 23rd, 2024.
[00:35:37] And of course, you can buy our book, Truths Table, Black Women's Musings Online Love in
[00:35:43] Liberation, which was nominated for an NAACP Image Award.
[00:35:47] You can buy that book wherever it's sold.
[00:35:48] You can go on bookshop.
[00:35:49] You can go on Amazon.
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[00:35:57] So and also check out Truths table's newest nonprofit, our, not our new, it is our only
[00:36:04] nonprofit, Truths Table Foundation where we equip and strengthen Black Christian women
[00:36:10] to go out into the world and do the amazing purposeful things they have been called
[00:36:16] to do.
[00:36:17] Truths Table Foundation dot org you can donate.
[00:36:21] You know Black nonprofits always need donations and support, so thank you.
[00:36:25] Thank you for having me.
[00:36:27] Well, Sister, I have many, one, pardon me for the other right there.
[00:36:36] Thank you for coming on and thank you for what you're doing.
[00:36:40] I know it's not easy.
[00:36:43] And but you and you talked about Dr. Edminson and other folks that you affiliate with have
[00:36:54] pressed on, and I encourage you personally to press on because we need you.
[00:37:03] And so, so I thank you for what you're doing.
[00:37:07] And again, thank you for coming on the podcast.
[00:37:09] Thank you.
[00:37:10] Thank you for having me.
[00:37:11] All right, guys, and we're going to catch all on the other side.
[00:37:36] And we are back.
[00:37:37] And so now, my next guest, Glenn Rushing has over 30 years of experience working in both
[00:37:47] government and politics at various levels before joining PDG.
[00:37:53] He served for 10 years as chief of staff for Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee.
[00:37:59] He was also previously a partner at the Elyse on group.
[00:38:05] I hope I'm saying that right.
[00:38:07] LLC Consulting Group based in Arlington, Virginia.
[00:38:11] His multifaceted career portfolio also includes roles as the Southern Deputy Political Director
[00:38:18] for the 2008 Hillary for President campaign, Deputy Political Director for the Democratic
[00:38:24] Senateorial Campaign Committee or the DSCC and as the National Field Director for the
[00:38:30] Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, the D.
[00:38:33] Triple C. Prior to his work at the D. Triple C, he was chief of staff to former Congressman
[00:38:39] Ronnie Showls of Mississippi.
[00:38:43] Glenn worked on his first campaign in 1987 as a regional field coordinator for Mississippi
[00:38:48] governor and former secretary of the Navy Ray Mavis.
[00:38:52] Since then, he has worked on over 20 campaigns serving as manager field director and field
[00:38:57] coordinator for a variety of candidates including President Clinton's 1992 and 1996 elections.
[00:39:05] Glenn remains front and center in the nation's most pressing policy debates, navigating
[00:39:10] complex congressional caucus politics and deploying strategies that capitalize on bringing Capitol
[00:39:16] Hill and the White House to the table to build a diverse coalition of support for clients.
[00:39:22] Throughout his career, Glenn has engaged in challenging policy matters including international
[00:39:27] and foreign affairs, immigration, health care, agriculture, rural development and transportation
[00:39:34] and infrastructure.
[00:39:35] In addition to his campaign experiences, Glenn has worked for the governor's office in Mississippi
[00:39:41] as an executive assistant for executive services and administrative assistant for constituent
[00:39:47] services.
[00:39:48] The United States Department of Agriculture as a confidential assistant to four congressional
[00:39:53] relations, the city of Jackson as director of governmental affairs, the Hines County Board
[00:39:59] of Supervisors as director of human capital development and served as district director
[00:40:05] and chief of staff for Congressman Ronnie Showls.
[00:40:08] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest and also
[00:40:16] to have as a friend on this podcast, Glenn Rushing.
[00:40:36] Alright, Glenn Rushing.
[00:40:39] How you doing my friends?
[00:40:40] You doing good?
[00:40:42] Brother, they don't weigh a lot.
[00:40:44] I'm even better than I can talk to you in person.
[00:40:47] I hear you man.
[00:40:48] It's been a long time and I...
[00:40:50] It's been a long time.
[00:40:52] Yeah, and I tell people the story how almost got you in trouble when I was running for
[00:41:01] the US Senate the first time and I was out there and you were lobbying for me at the DSCC
[00:41:11] trying to make sure I got my money or whatever support and they sent you off to Ohio.
[00:41:18] You remember?
[00:41:21] I forgot you were right.
[00:41:22] I was going to go to Ohio.
[00:41:23] They sent you a hot Sharad Brown was going to beat the crap out of whoever he was right.
[00:41:27] Was it the wine he was running against?
[00:41:31] Like Sharad had that election won and he said...
[00:41:36] Yeah.
[00:41:37] It was the wine.
[00:41:38] I'm first sure it was the wine.
[00:41:39] Sharad was beating the crap out of they sent you over there just to give you something
[00:41:44] to do instead of bugging them about being.
[00:41:47] But I greatly appreciate you man and not only for that but for what you've been doing
[00:41:52] and so I just kind of wanted people to...
[00:42:00] The audience to kind of hear the concept of the...
[00:42:08] Here's somebody that has been behind the scenes.
[00:42:12] A lot of people pay attention to the folks that get elected but not too many people know
[00:42:21] who the staff people are and you've been one of those folks who have been...
[00:42:28] You did your time in Mississippi and you got to Washington and you've worked for a number
[00:42:35] congressman and congresswoman and now you're in the game as far as lobbyons concerned.
[00:42:42] So I wanted people to get your perspective on that.
[00:42:46] So I just kind of wanted to highlight you so people know how that aspect of the political
[00:42:55] system works.
[00:42:58] What I like to do at the beginning of every interview is to start off with a quote.
[00:43:03] So as either something that you might have said, something you might have written or something
[00:43:08] that relates to the work so your quote is this.
[00:43:12] I think there's no higher calling in terms of a career than public service which is a chance
[00:43:19] to make a difference in people's lives and improve the world.
[00:43:24] What does that quote mean to you?
[00:43:29] Service, I mean I've been in public service since I left Jackson State University as a matter
[00:43:36] of fact it was Dr. Ali Mack who got me started actually.
[00:43:45] I don't know if you know this story or I was walking across campus one day and I dropped
[00:43:50] in to the political science department and Dr. Mack asked me did I want to introduce Governor
[00:43:57] Ray Maybeth but then there was a state auditorium of Ray Maybeth's rank for governor on campus.
[00:44:03] So I said sure so I went to the dormitory and wrote my little introduction and long story
[00:44:10] for sure fast forward I ended up on his campaign.
[00:44:16] I've always been interested in public service because I saw icons like Congressman Bennett
[00:44:24] Thompson and Lewis Armstrong those guys were doing the thing they won't TV all the time
[00:44:32] and I was in cartridge Mississippi and I'm saying these guys on TV all the time I was like
[00:44:36] man that's fascinating and they're making things happen they're changing things so that
[00:44:42] was and I had family members that were involved in public service but it became a part of my
[00:44:48] DNA and you know you don't ever know where you're going to land in this life as you progress
[00:44:55] you know we political science majors we all have the intention of going to law school
[00:44:59] and got sidetracked with politics and here I am today he's been public service for a
[00:45:04] long time on the staffing side of it I had a desire to run for actually run for office one
[00:45:10] time but I figured out that you know you can actually serve in staffing roles too and be just as
[00:45:17] effective because you know the politician they can't do any more than with the quality
[00:45:23] of staff if they have good staff they're going to have good public policy and if they don't
[00:45:28] help a good staff they'll just be you know just not as effective as I say so it's been
[00:45:34] a long journey been a fast journey it seems but it's that that quote to me means you know services
[00:45:40] are is a higher calling it's almost like a a spiritual calling one that that allows you to
[00:45:48] to give back outside of the church through through through public service so that's
[00:45:54] that's what it means to me yeah so you touched on the next question about what was your motivation
[00:46:00] so I'm moving on to this one you worked on Capitol Hill for a number of years
[00:46:07] what is the most glaring difference you see now as compared to when you work there
[00:46:15] wow I go back when I first got to Washington in 92 but 93 actually we're working
[00:46:26] Capitol Hill I was in the Clinton administration and there was still civility Eric
[00:46:34] people still talked across the aisle and people were still you know as we were saying
[00:46:40] post still willing and dealing and cutting deals and helping each other fast forward to 1995
[00:46:49] all of that changed and it happened right before I asked and you can see it so clearly
[00:46:57] new language changed at Washington and it was the beginning of what we see today
[00:47:06] and it said that what we see today makes new genghis look like he was a moderate
[00:47:12] but but that was the beginning of what we started because the the level of civility started
[00:47:18] to the great and became all really more polarized in the way people
[00:47:27] operated and communicated with each other you're going to house floor right now
[00:47:32] you're not going to see democrats who are on the left side of the aisle facing the speaker
[00:47:41] you're never going to let see them the democrats walking to the republican side and
[00:47:45] and having a real policy conversation it doesn't happen you know every you may have a couple
[00:47:50] of blue dogs and some other members who are more pragmatic that will go over and talk
[00:47:55] and likewise the republican will come to the democrats says so it's all it's all very very
[00:48:05] just the hardcore disabled politics I'll call it and it's it's it's it's to a point where
[00:48:15] um you can't get anything done um had one person to tell me that the worst thing it did
[00:48:21] it may have been as a result it was either I think it was tennis tennis that the worst
[00:48:27] some of the students that the worst thing that happened to Washington was to television cameras
[00:48:32] once you put those cameras in those and on the floor and put those cameras in the committee rooms
[00:48:37] it became Hollywood everybody's speaking to the constituents and you lost that real dialogue
[00:48:44] to come up with good policy so um that's what we are and it's it's it's it's sad I can we get back
[00:48:54] to where we were uh you know I think I think it will take uh third party to shake up the whole system
[00:49:02] um before we get back to to the civility that's needed to run this country in the
[00:49:07] most efficient and proper way yeah so yeah well you know you you talked about tennis and uh
[00:49:18] you know that was that was the main thing why the senate was the you know didn't get on the
[00:49:24] c-span it's right away because he was over the rules committee so he wasn't going to allow them
[00:49:31] to come on like he where you saw in the house and he basically said you're gonna have a hundred
[00:49:36] people running for president if you put c-span in hand and he was right um but you said that
[00:49:43] gingrich is kind of was kind of the start of it my thing is you know when when you were up there
[00:49:55] and I would come up and visit and stuff and you know it was like you being a legislative director
[00:50:05] that was the most important job for a member of congress you were the one that kind of helped
[00:50:10] make sure that the you know their policy agendas whatever bills they really wanted to work on
[00:50:17] you were you and people like your peers were the ones that kind of helped make that happen
[00:50:23] now it seems like the most important job up there is the communications director
[00:50:30] uh as a matter of fact i don't know if it was Derek Johnson or somebody that had actually
[00:50:35] showed like a job description for communications director for one person in congress and it was like
[00:50:41] two or three pages long and then the legislative director was like one paragraph for that same
[00:50:46] congress person yeah so do you do you know follow it up on that do you think that
[00:50:53] it's been it's been really a more of a commitment to
[00:51:00] showboat and and and uh get likes on social media that's driving a lot of these people now
[00:51:08] and also creating the wedge that you see up there in capital hill
[00:51:14] i right at the gap you have some of both Eric if there's you have some i mean you got members
[00:51:20] up there that it seems like that's all they do is showboat and they do put in invest a lot of
[00:51:25] time into tweeting and uh uh uh instagram and take talk which maybe but i don't know it's going to be
[00:51:33] going at the door but they're trying to get at the door right but are they using all the social media
[00:51:38] platforms have for some of these members is what they thrive on uh gets from florida would be one of
[00:51:46] those uh it's it's it's theatrics it's it's about the six o'clock news the ten o'clock news
[00:51:53] but then you also would you do have members that still are serious legislators and um
[00:52:00] the the legislative director and the chief councils are still very important now at
[00:52:05] manual just like you all had in in the state legislature i mean that in the people who the people
[00:52:11] who really we legislate directors give them direction but the people who are really
[00:52:16] are drawing it up is that is that uh other is the um the office that actually writes the legislation
[00:52:23] is the office of council council office they're writing the legislation you just tweak it and
[00:52:28] countertell them what you want but now i think you you are correct there i mean there's there's a lot
[00:52:33] more show voting going on and and um you know you you look at legislation now
[00:52:41] there's um they have very very few pieces there by 10,000 pieces of legislation
[00:52:46] introduced every year uh and it's probably uh around about two or three percent
[00:52:53] of those that actually see the you know see daylight um so it's not it's not an easy process to get
[00:53:00] to stuff in but it's even more difficult in the type of environment where it's not about
[00:53:06] policy it's about got you game and who you know who's who who won the who won today so i it's uh
[00:53:14] i wouldn't say that it's all show voting there are some various serious legislators that are still
[00:53:19] still working hard to serve the constituents into to help to help our country
[00:53:24] so how hard does that make it for you now that you're in the the lobbying end of it
[00:53:36] here's the hard part now uh turnover is much greater
[00:53:42] uh and that's even with staff too uh but members of congress that the turnover's greatest so you know
[00:53:50] as a as a lobbyist you i mean your your bread and butter is is is based on relationships
[00:53:56] and so you know as those change you got to constantly
[00:54:03] get new relationships and and and learn new people new members of congress new chiefs of staff new
[00:54:07] ledges lab directors uh new committee staff now committee staff typically does stick around a
[00:54:12] longer because they're in the background in the back rooms uh uh and they tip tipply a little older
[00:54:19] but it's uh it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's still a process here that you still got to go
[00:54:30] through so it's i mean i i don't know what um how well it can be changed and make it better but
[00:54:37] it's it's a constant revolving door um which means you gotta go to the to the receptions you gotta
[00:54:44] show up at fun razors um you gotta show up at birthday parties uh any kind of event where you
[00:54:53] can be seen be the first to flesh so we can uh so we can have some most sidebar talks yeah
[00:55:01] so you know i lobby for for a little bit in in in Mississippi and i i definitely relate to that
[00:55:07] because you know i did the colleagues that i served with there was still there
[00:55:12] of course we had relationships and all that didn't matter what side of the aisle we're on um but
[00:55:18] you know learning the new faces and trying to figure out you know what their likes were and all
[00:55:24] that kind of stuff uh having those those sidebar conversations like you said so i can only imagine
[00:55:31] i mean in Mississippi only dealing with what 170 some folks uh in in the house alone in dc you got
[00:55:40] four and thirty five individuals and you know yeah most of them don't know each other exactly
[00:55:48] you know that's not the yeah both both people in america don't know i'm except the people that
[00:55:54] elected them in their particular district you know that the ones that we always see on tv
[00:56:00] that's one thing but it's like you know there's a bunch of individuals out there and then
[00:56:05] you've got some places like america samoah and the virgin islands they have delegates and
[00:56:10] you know very few people know them you know what i'm saying so um you know well i'll say this
[00:56:18] if it was not for staff in Washington it would be a complete collapse uh because staff
[00:56:25] committee staff and uh uh personal staff those are the people who are doing negotiations on the
[00:56:31] early stages of developing a bill um they're the ones who are determining determining the member may
[00:56:38] tell them i would like to see a bill with x y and z in it and then the rest of the staff is
[00:56:42] they're putting all of the uh the wheels on the car and making sure that the the the bill is something
[00:56:49] that folks at can live with hopefully but typical when it happens there's always you know it's got to go
[00:56:54] through the market process committee process and you're going to have members that want to man stuff
[00:56:58] and all that so it makes it a lot more difficult but it just had to start the great videos
[00:57:05] they want to write the bills themselves and negotiate it from the beginning it would be a complete
[00:57:10] collapse you wouldn't get anything done in Washington so staff they are very violent political role
[00:57:16] and making things happen in Washington because there was the other ones the members are relying on
[00:57:20] to do the real negotiations before it comes out um to committee and before it gets on the floor
[00:57:27] so the staff people that work in the staff get along better than the actual elected officials i
[00:57:33] take it based on what you said oh absolutely no absolutely yeah absolutely and i i will say
[00:57:40] this about members and i've been on i've been on um some co-dails with members with Republicans or
[00:57:46] even hearings out of Washington when when when those members on the bus when you have real
[00:57:51] conversations Republicans are Democrats then you get the truth areas yeah you get the truth there
[00:57:56] but when those cameras come on the truth doesn't mean anything but you'll you'll get some
[00:58:01] frill it you'll get you'll get you'll get Republicans uh talking about Trump and they'll be like
[00:58:07] gosh i don't know you can you can see the frustration but the next time you see them on television
[00:58:13] president was right oh yeah i remember the games well it wasn't as it wasn't as bad in the state
[00:58:24] legislature as i can imagine at the national level uh but yeah we you know we had to we had to
[00:58:32] you know in public kind of watch out words as compared to when we were in the in the cloakroom or
[00:58:38] you know in the back of the gout at black at the back of the chamber uh talking about whoever
[00:58:44] the governor was at that particular point um so what was what is what has been your favorite moment
[00:58:57] in your in your career dealing with politics what what either gave you pride or just what was
[00:59:04] what was your your favorite your favorite moment so far in politics
[00:59:11] um a lot of different moments good great moments Matthew working for congresswoman
[00:59:18] Sheila Jackson Lee um
[00:59:24] when she introduced the George floor um
[00:59:28] um
[00:59:30] law enforcement reform act and of course that ended up being something else uh the
[00:59:36] the name changed and seeing they go through she put a lot of time into that um
[00:59:43] well most of i think just working for her though but it was i mean i mean i've been in politics
[00:59:48] for a long time before i started working for i thought i knew everything here but you know
[00:59:52] she she runs off as like as a campaign office i mean it's constantly moving it i was in
[00:59:56] an office until whoever won't want in the morning every night for 10 years um
[01:00:04] i'm trying to think of it was just one because there were so many moments with her
[01:00:08] i'm trying to remember what it wanted particularly this may maybe stand out um
[01:00:13] the George floor one was probably the biggest one because that was that took a lot
[01:00:17] and took a lot of negotiations uh to to finally get something across the finish line even though
[01:00:23] we didn't get what we didn't get you know ended up going to the center with it the
[01:00:28] hill was pretty much watered down i didn't we didn't get a lot of the stuff that we wanted in there so
[01:00:33] i think that was one of the i think that would be one of the proudest moments because it was
[01:00:37] it was something that had been talked about for a long time and um and nobody wanted to take action
[01:00:43] on it um i don't think of can't think of anything else that just stands out that would i would see
[01:00:49] the proudest my love to work on reparations i didn't understand reparations until i started
[01:00:54] working on it um it's uh hurt she she took the issue over from congressman kindness and
[01:01:02] what we were able to get at first hearing in congress and this this is the reparation
[01:01:09] to be able to to create a commission to study reparations and its impact on uh african-american so
[01:01:16] i mean those those were some of my proudest moments i think uh you can it's hard to just just pivot
[01:01:23] to just want and say that was just the proudest because there was so many with her um
[01:01:31] then we'd run these shals we had to try care of bill we tried to we were working to get
[01:01:35] try care and we eventually got something across try care was not taking care of soldiers
[01:01:39] and their families uh we got that across the finish line eventually uh so those yeah those
[01:01:44] those were some some some some proud moments didn't get across the finish line while he was there
[01:01:48] but that bill eventually his bill actually ended up passing it was after he left but he's the one
[01:01:53] who put it on the table and got it and got it got it going and got it uh at least into into the
[01:01:57] public sphere is he still up there lobby and now he still comes up here in another friend of
[01:02:04] here some Louisiana they he comes up and they uh they still have some clients and still lobby yeah
[01:02:10] they've made a fact that officers then know method is building right across next to the uh
[01:02:14] supreme court across from the calveville yeah it was like working on his campaign
[01:02:22] was was was was was a cool moment um because i was county chair at that time
[01:02:29] and we had to do some maneuvering where we ended up being the the the organization to get his money
[01:02:36] he he he he he he so because the party was it party was it disarrayed
[01:02:44] Barton Frost had sent his his kept a manager down yeah that was that was a pretty wild times
[01:02:50] man but i was so glad for him because he he was one of the good guys and not that he's he's
[01:02:57] going on the other side but he was one that he was wanting the good guys down there in
[01:03:02] miscibid work for so um you know it was it was pretty cool to to see him get elected um
[01:03:11] so you know what would advice would you give young african americans who want to seek a career
[01:03:19] in politics um get involved wherever you are get get involved um
[01:03:32] don't don't be shy about asking questions and you know reaching out to people i tell i just
[01:03:41] to tell interns all the time i had a great uncle to tell me said it's uh people all he said
[01:03:46] I know some people have told you it's not what you know it's who you know and he said but that's
[01:03:50] not true it's not who you know it's who remembers you and i took that with me because
[01:03:55] i've met a lot of people in my life and i don't i don't necessarily think they know me anymore
[01:04:03] because i didn't keep up with them the only people that i still have a relationship with the ones
[01:04:07] that we can't get a connection with and so it's it's really critical that as a young person when
[01:04:14] you meet people especially people who are in places of power influential people or in community
[01:04:21] leaders whether they may be a business owners when you leave them get the car follow back up with
[01:04:28] them and keep in contact if you're somebody if you think that's one that's going to be worthy of
[01:04:33] helping you down the road staying in contact you'll be surprised first of all it's impressive
[01:04:39] that you did it you stay in contact and it's even more impressed that you uh that you that you
[01:04:48] just followed up in general so always make that first impression the best impression i guess
[01:04:54] the other thing would be um i would tell folks you know go ahead and i will say complete your
[01:05:00] education if you want to go to law school go ahead go to law school uh hey man did that i took a
[01:05:05] happen yeah i took another route because like i caught up in politics and couldn't leave you
[01:05:10] me too it didn't say no and it wasn't a bad it's not a bad deal just the way life took me and i'm
[01:05:16] not saying don't don't uh don't let just don't just follow the you know where the path takes you but
[01:05:21] if you really want to go to law school go to graduate school just go ahead and do it um because as
[01:05:27] say politics is always going to be here uh the but you you know once you get into life things things
[01:05:34] kind of take over and you won't have those same opportunities um so i think those those are the two
[01:05:39] biggest but many things just get involved because i know when you and i were coming along
[01:05:45] i mean there was a lot of us involved in the process and you can't find it now it's even hard
[01:05:51] to find it's hard to find kids even do feel uh work when it comes to campaigns or you want
[01:05:57] you you're not going to find an African-American fundraiser hardly it's just they don't it's not
[01:06:01] they're not out there it's you um it's just with there's a huge need for more involvement on the
[01:06:09] public service side and campaigns for young African-Americans i don't think i will say this if you get
[01:06:15] an opportunity get involved with a campaign you can do it while you're in college just get involved
[01:06:22] in somebody's campaign you'll let your life long friends and those friends create a circle
[01:06:29] and in politics aerognoes this in politics it's just one big family and once you in that family
[01:06:35] everybody tindy you just it's a it's a it's a cycling door it's just a rotating door uh i've been blessed
[01:06:42] because i've been in campaigns and that these friendships you never they never go away and don't
[01:06:48] go get into a presence of campaign it's not hard to do that with young kids rousing
[01:06:52] Bill Clinton's campaign from all over the country some of them came in the volunteer first and
[01:06:58] ended up getting jobs in the campaign others came and just took um some low paying jobs and then it
[01:07:04] moved up in the campaign during the process but most of them that with with the people you're going
[01:07:09] to meet in those campaigns that you can they they're gonna remember you especially if you impress them
[01:07:14] but they're gonna remember you and then when they they go into other places other venues they're gonna
[01:07:18] say hey remember a gland remember area uh you may want to call them and see if they want to work and
[01:07:24] so it's because it just that's what it reminds happens from one campaign to working in a government
[01:07:32] position and another campaign where the government is in is just it just it just never stopped
[01:07:37] and it didn't stop because of relationships uh yeah the relationships that i developed over the years
[01:07:43] so i think that would be the biggest uh i think my biggest biggest message to young people
[01:07:48] is just get involved wherever it is it's a local state or federal yeah and you know i've
[01:07:54] you know interviewing people that you know are kind of legendary now in politics uh you know they
[01:08:02] started in college you know and that's one thing i always tried to stress in the interview was
[01:08:07] like so what when you were in college what what motivated you to do what you did and
[01:08:12] you know like you said Ray Mabius i don't know if he'll get the flowers that he deserves
[01:08:23] but Ray Mabius opened the door for a lot of us in the black community in politics i mean
[01:08:31] you got discovered introducing them yeah you're right um they came after me
[01:08:37] at the young democrats when we were organizing young democrats on campus
[01:08:43] picket Wilson and crew Kate Laura Hammons all those folks came after me after that uh so you know
[01:08:50] and then it's like people i served with like John horn and then Gary Anderson
[01:08:55] Mabius brought all those folks in yeah Mabius brought all those folks in and so
[01:09:00] what will it what is them in yeah yeah so like i said man you know he you know he most people on
[01:09:08] the national level know him as the secretary to navy twice and being a former governor say to
[01:09:13] Mississippi but that campaign when he ran for governor really opened the door for a lot of us
[01:09:21] to get our foot in the door uh and and and to to get involved politically like you say it
[01:09:28] sidetracked us from going to law school right uh he he he he got it got us going so you know what
[01:09:35] brother Glenn is telling y'all young folks man y'all pay attention to that because it's true
[01:09:40] um and the one thing i didn't mention you know uh you know i was i was the student body president
[01:09:50] my senior year at Jackson state but Glenn was my class president he was the senior class president
[01:09:56] so you know when when i to if i refer to mr president how you do it you know that's why uh
[01:10:03] because he was the one that we voted for in our class to lead us so you know and and why do you
[01:10:09] want to listen to the listeners the listeners need to know that Eric Fleming broke up
[01:10:18] uh uh uh uh mafia you had already determined who's gonna be like the every year
[01:10:25] somebody president for years and he came and broke it all up and won and uh and and start his own
[01:10:34] started his own uh administration and had his own team well you know i don't know about
[01:10:42] broke up anything but it was like it was like if you were a member of five-beta sigma on campus
[01:10:46] you pretty much were a lock to be stood by president and i was not a member of five-beta
[01:10:52] city yeah well you know you you actually you actually you gave me i i knew about that you
[01:10:59] nobody you know did you you were you were the person that would not you went on the slate
[01:11:04] and you took them out yeah i didn't know had the condition with five eighty six yeah that was
[01:11:09] that was the deal they had they had had the position you know for last well i think Jerome was
[01:11:15] an an alpha Jerome was the alpha but then it was like they had the sigma's that kind of
[01:11:22] gotten in and uh yeah so they it was that was part of the deal but you know my my biggest allies
[01:11:29] was the football team uh when i ran for when i ran for sga justice uh you know i
[01:11:40] came out went to the football dorm and you know it takes frank Sutton and other folks to tell
[01:11:45] the story better than me but it was just like i caught them totally by surprise they were they
[01:11:51] had never had anybody running for sga come to the football dorm and say man i need you to vote for
[01:11:57] me and uh it so it was like at first it was kind of a joke to them and then frank and a few other
[01:12:04] guys said hey y'all hey he came to talk to us let's hear what he got to say so you know from that
[01:12:12] point on i guess that's when i started breaking them off because i had the football player so much
[01:12:18] i will say this because because when you did that it changed everybody started campaigning in that
[01:12:26] way because everybody started focusing on football the sororities and fraternities uh so you sort of
[01:12:33] you i mean did you change the way to campaign on campus yeah well i appreciate that brother um
[01:12:40] but you know it it's and to to to break it down to what we're dealing with now
[01:12:49] that's where i think we have to go we got to get back to that we got to get back to and you don't
[01:12:55] have to pander to folks you just got to show up i mean what i mean just using the football example
[01:13:01] what could i say to the football players that uh you know as a sga justice or a student by president
[01:13:07] for them you know what i'm saying i mean they ran it i mean jacks to say football team that was
[01:13:12] they were they were the outside of anybody else they were the most important students on campus
[01:13:17] but you know it's all about showing up and being there and i think that's that's something that
[01:13:24] we've totally lost because one of the things uh you know i you it's watching it hadn't gotten
[01:13:34] that bad when i was lobby in Mississippi but now i think it has but in other states it was happening where
[01:13:40] if you were a lobbyist and the republicans were in charge you didn't even talk to any democrats
[01:13:47] you know you didn't have dinners with them and all that stuff i just can't even imagine that
[01:13:53] and when i was in there and the legislature it was like hey we're taking the committee to dinner so
[01:13:59] that meant democrats republicans independence dogs cats whatever the wives everything you know
[01:14:05] everybody could come and uh i just can't even imagine this world now where
[01:14:12] we just picking one side over the other and not even talking to the other side to try to convince
[01:14:16] them to vote for legislation but that's only at the state level i know y'all not doing that at
[01:14:21] the national level but at the state level that's that's kind of been a trend and uh that you know
[01:14:28] and we got to get back to politics the way it used to be where where we could sit down and disagree
[01:14:35] but still and not be disagreeable you know but look man uh we can go down at memory lane thing for
[01:14:42] a long time how can people get in touch with you how can people get in touch with you at uh
[01:14:48] turn isn't a family reunion yes right uh and uh reach out to you if they want some more advice or
[01:14:55] you know how they want to hire your firm how can people get in touch with you
[01:15:02] how you can get in touch with me at uh uh the peter dame in group uh we are a strategic
[01:15:09] public in governmental affairs business development we do event management uh we do a lot of the
[01:15:14] cvc events uh we do the we do after we do actually do the african-american mayors uh conference
[01:15:21] we do their events um but you can they can reach me uh at 202 to two five i'm gonna give my
[01:15:30] congress number 202 to two seven one five three four zero
[01:15:34] 202 to two seven one five three four zero and uh you know we uh we are we are a boutique firm that
[01:15:43] give our clients um a personal touch we don't we're not one of these big law firms that you see them
[01:15:51] when you come to town we we uh we serve as our clients as if they are and and that's how we operate
[01:15:59] uh we use our years of uh of relationships in both executive branch and legislative branch to uh
[01:16:06] to make things happen well and shout out uh one of your one of your people you work with the
[01:16:12] niece Terry uh i know she's a go get a uh and uh but the last night okay yeah well the next time
[01:16:20] you see a teller at the air still you know he still thinks about him even though i'm not even
[01:16:27] though i'm not at bensipi don't know i tell her tell her i'm proud of what she's doing and how
[01:16:32] she she's been moving forward all right Glenn thank you brother i appreciate it uh now appreciate it
[01:16:39] i'm gonna do a better keeping it at least we keep in touch on social media but i'm gonna do better
[01:16:43] keeping in touch with you brother uh because i'm really really proud of you uh and how you've
[01:16:51] you've ascended in this game it's not an easy thing for black men to do um and uh you
[01:17:00] you you you become one of the old heads now brother you've been you've been come one to master so
[01:17:06] keep up the good work man
[01:17:11] well i appreciate you i appreciate all you've done and and and and been an example for me as well
[01:17:17] through through the years and uh you know we started on the same stuff in grounds and
[01:17:22] you you met you've always been a lot and you've always been someone that i could look up to as well
[01:17:26] to uh to to sort of lead the path because you've always been active and that was you know something
[01:17:32] that um gave me enough time to to to sort of pattern myself after so i appreciate you as well
[01:17:38] well thank you sir all right guys we're gonna catch up on the other side
[01:17:48] you
[01:18:05] all right and we are back and now it is time for my final guest
[01:18:10] doctor nah dov
[01:18:12] doctor dov is a proud mother grand mother and great-grandmother she has lived in gana
[01:18:19] Nigeria, Canada the US and the UK she graduated with a msc from the institute of education
[01:18:30] in sociology with a focus on racism and the miseducation of the black child
[01:18:36] she graduated so i guess that's a specialist master's um she graduated with a PhD from the
[01:18:43] state university of new york in buffalo with a focus on african culture women and education
[01:18:50] and has written articles chapters and encyclopedic encyclopedic entries and three books
[01:18:58] african mothers bearers of the culture maker of social change in 1998
[01:19:03] the afro centric school of blueprint in 2021 and co-authored being human being
[01:19:11] transforming the race discourse also in 2021 with doctor malayfe kete asante
[01:19:19] her accomplishments include her involvement in developing african centered and afro centric schools
[01:19:27] doctor nadaav is a tenured track assistant professor of afro ecology at temple university with
[01:19:33] a focus on african culture african women particularly mothers and afro logical epistomy
[01:19:41] ladies and gentlemen it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast
[01:19:48] doctor nadaav
[01:20:03] all right doctor nadaav how you doing ma'am you doing good
[01:20:09] doing fine i'm honored to be here thank you for having me
[01:20:13] well i'm honored to have you and uh
[01:20:16] uh a mutual friend of ours aos and kai wanted to make sure that i had you on the podcast
[01:20:24] and i'm glad that you accepted my invitation to be on the podcast thank you um what i like to do
[01:20:32] is start with a quote from either the person i'm interviewing whether they wrote it or said it
[01:20:40] or it's a quote that relates to the work that they're doing so your quote is this
[01:20:48] many contemporary black scholars have continued to address
[01:20:53] this same question of educating the african-american child
[01:20:58] the inescapable reality is and has always been that the liberation of african-americans is
[01:21:05] dependent upon an effective education we emphasize effective because so much of our education
[01:21:12] has been virtually useless and accomplishing the objective of liberation the process of
[01:21:18] miseducation is described by dr. Carter G woods in 1931 has continued to impede our progress as an
[01:21:25] educated people dr. woodsons conclusion that the majority of educated blacks were all but
[01:21:31] quote unquote worthless in the uplift of their people remains an issue of deadly accuracy his
[01:21:38] analysis was that the seat of the trouble was in what african-americans were being taught
[01:21:44] what does that quote mean to you?
[01:21:48] well, Carter G woodson is uh as an inspirational person for anyone that is studying education
[01:21:57] and what is happening to the minds of african people in this country
[01:22:04] he's basically describing cultural domination of the uh of the conquerors of Europeans
[01:22:15] and that Europeans as the dominant cultural group are creating
[01:22:27] the inability of african people to know who they are what happened
[01:22:35] what happened before african people came to were captured and enslaved
[01:22:40] what is the past? what were the cultural beliefs and values of african people so
[01:22:48] enslavement is off the mind as well as the body and when it is off the mind it is also all the spirit
[01:22:57] and the soul because the mind is connected to the spirit and the soul so african people are being
[01:23:05] prevented from knowing who they are and the liberation of the mind is to actually know who you are
[01:23:14] so um it's a way that the schooling process as Dr. Miley Moussiu would call it he would say this
[01:23:24] is not education at schooling schooling is to adjust to the cultural orientation of the conquerors
[01:23:33] and learn the skills that are necessary to maintain that cultural and social organization
[01:23:43] and education is about um learning who you are and learning why you are here
[01:23:53] and what are your options why you were here what is your mission these types of things um so really
[01:24:05] uh Cartagy was an is correct the liberation of our minds is based on the knowledge of who we are
[01:24:13] and we are being taught who we are not so i guess that kind of answers my next question
[01:24:23] but you've had the privilege of living in different places around the world what makes
[01:24:29] african-americans unique into african diaspora it's because when african people were brought here
[01:24:40] and enslaved here um you know many fought for human rights and it has been a process in this country
[01:24:49] and many have died in that struggle to uh change the circumstances that people brought here and
[01:24:58] forced into being who they were not and in that process of making change um certain rights have
[01:25:08] enabled um african people to really seek um within the pan-European academy for instance
[01:25:20] to seek knowledge about the ancient past and um there there are two things here one is that when
[01:25:30] african people were brought here as enslaved people cultural beliefs and values many of them
[01:25:38] were still maintained people just didn't lose them just because they couldn't use their agency to be
[01:25:45] free um they kept them kept them quiet and that that was a way of maintaining a semblance of humanity
[01:25:56] and being able to live through these terrible times and so it is still with african people who
[01:26:04] were brought here but then there are people who have been privileged enough to get into
[01:26:13] the academy and use the academy which is also maintaining the cultural orientation of this
[01:26:22] society but have been able to use and exploit the academy to study who african people were before
[01:26:32] they became enslaved and um forced to be what the dominant culture wants them to be
[01:26:42] and so it's like being in the mind of the oppressor and sometimes that has revealed knowledge
[01:26:51] about behaviors about ideas about the construction of race what it took to maintain a force belief
[01:27:01] in race and to create an environment where people would see themselves in a hierarchy of humanity
[01:27:09] either superior or inferior based on the amount of melanin in the skin so this is one of the greatest
[01:27:19] falsehoods that we live in and um when we go to the ancient past we can find that african people
[01:27:28] did not practice racism racism was unknown so we can actually date it in the chronology of the
[01:27:38] history of humanity so this falsehood has created a black person who has been constructed
[01:27:51] by race as a cultural belief system and um the uh yeah so if that makes sense i hope it does make
[01:28:05] yeah yeah everything that you say makes sense dr. dov i just want you to understand it uh
[01:28:10] so and at perfectly answer my question which leads to my next question what is the objective of your
[01:28:18] book the afro-centric school a blueprint okay well the you know i've worked with uh afro-centric schools
[01:28:32] although they won't call that this is some more recent terminology but when i was in the UK
[01:28:39] i was in the supplementary school movement because i was a parent and i knew having grown up for a
[01:28:47] while in the uk that what they were teaching us was not true and i wanted to be able to along with
[01:28:55] a whole movement that was going on there supplementary schools were Saturday schools and maybe one
[01:29:03] evening in the week where children were taught their african history and um so i i was lucky enough
[01:29:12] to be part of that movement and my friends and i we started a Saturday school and we were part of
[01:29:19] a black parent group and all our children went to the Saturday school and we would have meetings
[01:29:28] um you know in terms of education and what we're going to do because many of the black children
[01:29:36] in the uk were being um you know sent out of school and um we're having all kinds of problems
[01:29:46] the school was giving them problems um it wasn't at the children at all so the supplementary
[01:29:53] school was a way of giving them extra knowledge so that they could actually go into the state schools
[01:30:01] and navigate their way through knowing that this is a system of oppression and how to handle it
[01:30:08] and many of the children going through didn't have that background so it was quite difficult
[01:30:14] they fell into all the the ways of undermining their integrity and downgrading them
[01:30:23] and creating things called behavior problems and special schools so the Saturday schools
[01:30:32] were able to teach the children what they faced and then when i came to the US
[01:30:42] to do i did when i did my first degree i did a study of the schools how many there were
[01:30:55] the students i interviewed parents and students and so on and i started a book on African mothers
[01:31:05] who send their children to these schools but i developed it when i came to the US
[01:31:11] because um in the US there were four-time schools four-time African-centered schools
[01:31:20] and you know i gravitated towards um that uh movement in the it began in the 60s 70s here in
[01:31:34] the states and the council of independent black institutions was the biggest umbrella
[01:31:41] organization of the schools across uh country wide so i was privileged enough to be um
[01:31:50] able to participate in that organization and visit the schools and meet the people and the
[01:31:58] parents and so that became part of the work that i was growing it to understand and um later
[01:32:09] i was able to go to to Ghana and work for UNICEF but i betrayed UNICEF because i went there with
[01:32:23] uh an afro-centric perspective and all that i had learned from my own African backgrounds and
[01:32:30] my what i'd learned from Africa was that the institutions the cultural institutions that
[01:32:39] maintained the ability for African people to hand on their knowledge culturally were being
[01:32:47] um destroyed and European institutions were replacing them and i was blessed enough to meet
[01:32:57] my line manager who wanted me to do a study to be the leading consultant in a study
[01:33:06] and he allowed me to take it from the afro-centric perspective which was to look at actually
[01:33:14] um respect what was going on in child upbringing practices and look at things like um
[01:33:26] how the children learns about medicine, how they learn about the different plants and the different
[01:33:34] ways that you could heal people just ordinary children and then how some families had the major
[01:33:43] uh skills and how some children were chosen through the shrines, through dreams, through their behaviors
[01:33:54] um to be medical practitioners in the African way and things like that uh breastfeeding,
[01:34:03] recognizing that there was an attempt to stop breastfeeding um looking at um
[01:34:13] at how children learned to farm in the small rural areas, small farming communities
[01:34:20] and how they understood the ecosystems and they understood many of the ancient traditions that
[01:34:29] they still held onto and i learned those those things and that was in the final report which
[01:34:37] was not acceptable because it supported the people and not the plans to dominate
[01:34:47] but i used the findings from that, the children from even before born new things and the parents
[01:34:56] knew they knew things um and so i was able to ask the the parents mainly mothers what are your
[01:35:06] children doing at these particular ages and there were probably about 1200 um responses and there
[01:35:15] were you know maybe about 35 interviewers and so on in different parts in the different regions in
[01:35:26] Ghana so it's quite a big big work, a big study baseline study and from that that is the foundation
[01:35:36] of the book so although the majority of these children were uh not literate they had so many skills
[01:35:46] that you you would wish your own children had in this country so i never put it in a hierarchical
[01:35:53] way because what's the point of being literate when you're learning rubbish that is telling you
[01:35:59] that you're nothing is better to not be literate but to know about your environment and how to
[01:36:06] respect your elders, love your ancestors and so on and so forth so i've put it in there the expectations
[01:36:15] of the ages and i've made it uh have the syllabus that would suit the skills of of mainly your children
[01:36:26] but taken from the African children. Yeah so one of the things i noticed
[01:36:35] it was like for example at a very early age you were teaching children what KMT meant or commit
[01:36:48] and and the significance of that and then as they got older for example like say when they were
[01:36:54] like 11 and 12 then you got into colonization and and how that came about so it's pretty spelled out
[01:37:03] how you you incorporate as we like to say reading writing and arithmetic but then
[01:37:12] you know you put in all these different other elements that we would normally not get in a public school
[01:37:20] and you and you spread it out um which i think is is brilliant but that leads me to this question
[01:37:30] many scholars like you have proposed an afro-centric curriculum for our children
[01:37:37] and based on your answer it sounds like
[01:37:39] for uh fifty-six years ago we kind of were pretty organized in that. Why do you think that the idea
[01:37:50] has not spread throughout our community like private schools spread throughout southern white
[01:37:55] communities after the brown versus board of education decision and and not that you know
[01:38:03] you're more educated than me so you understand the question but but for the listeners what i'm
[01:38:08] really saying is when that when that brown decision came white folks in the south moved
[01:38:16] and they they started building academies there's one academy in Mississippi right now that I can tell you
[01:38:25] is nothing more than permustile buildings but they built that and that school has been in existence
[01:38:33] for generations just so that those white kids would now have to go to school with those black kids
[01:38:41] and i guess you know the essence of the question is how come we weren't that motivated
[01:38:48] to do the same thing and create these schools to teach an afro-centric curriculum?
[01:38:54] well i think in many ways the African communities the African-American communities were did have
[01:39:05] their own schools and were teaching the children african ways even though sticking to the
[01:39:13] the you know the ability to achieve the credentials to be able to have the skills to work anywhere
[01:39:28] there was always that the values and beliefs and the behaviors that were expected
[01:39:37] that African-oriented and so i think that was that was taking place so there were things
[01:39:48] financial constraints but they were not as important as being able to teach the skills
[01:39:58] in with respect and love of the children but i think once that desegregation took place that was
[01:40:08] a very thrilling moment to say well there are all these opportunities out there
[01:40:15] we should have access to everything out there you know and it was like opening the gates
[01:40:25] and i think that it one didn't foresee that in going into it one was going into a cultural
[01:40:35] orientation that was anti-African and anti-black even more so
[01:40:43] um in in more subtle ways i mean it was the obvious and the segregation to maintain a way where
[01:40:56] people didn't mix um and in some ways it was a preferred situation as i say because some of the
[01:41:08] the values and beliefs were still maintained in the communities but once it opens you know our
[01:41:16] minds became more Europeanized and uh you know all those aggressions and ideas of individuality
[01:41:29] take what you want when you want it from whomever those type of things became more um you know
[01:41:38] we we took them in and became more sort of Europeanized ourselves you know when we look at
[01:41:47] the idea of colorism for instance it is just racism that's all it is but we've taken
[01:41:55] the European and Arabic determination of race which isn't real and we have now
[01:42:03] ascribed you know put ourselves in that looked at ourselves with the same eye and um and some of us
[01:42:13] have believed it believe that if you like to skin your superior and if you're darker skin your
[01:42:19] inferior and we do it to ourselves i don't have to be any any Europeans anywhere inside because
[01:42:26] culture is within us and we're transferring it to our you know to to our descendants the same
[01:42:36] things that we're being taught and that is what school is teaching us that is what the media
[01:42:42] is teaching us because culture is so powerful that the dominant group that all institutions will
[01:42:51] reflect the values and beliefs of the cultural group and we're in a dominant culture
[01:42:59] and so everything from media to medicine to schooling to economics to um to uh to uh
[01:43:11] spirituality or religion they're all shaped by the culture that's they they rise in
[01:43:22] and so you know we we have a few things to do the more we understand who we are the more we
[01:43:31] understand that our African ancestors were the civilizing people of the worlds were the
[01:43:39] teachers of the world the more that we we begin to understand that then we can tweak the institutions
[01:43:47] that we have to work in like Dr. Asanti his tweet temple university so that there's an
[01:43:54] uncleaf within a European structure that creates the pan-European academy um whereby you learn
[01:44:04] how to all the European people or the famous people the philosophers the mathematicians all those
[01:44:11] people um he's created a non-clave where we learn about all the African uh philosophers and mathematicians
[01:44:20] and so on by developing a theory, atheric theory within he's developed that so there are all these ways
[01:44:29] that the African-Americans have been tweaking the current institutions to make them more
[01:44:38] bearable to make African people safer in them but at the same time there has to be a sort of vision
[01:44:47] about really what we want you know so it's it's working in two ways um so I think that's really
[01:44:56] what a lots of many African-American people are doing because if you see or look at the history
[01:45:04] the chronology of uprisings and changes the seeking of democracy in this country which doesn't
[01:45:13] understand democracy at all it's an African thing democracy this is not but I think I believe
[01:45:21] through atheric theory that this cultural orientation that we maintain some of the bestages of
[01:45:33] and you can learn more with knowledge and that uh that that has been within the African movement
[01:45:42] to make social change and that social change has benefited everybody but people don't recognize
[01:45:50] that it's African people who are actually doing this and you know and because of the race paradigm
[01:45:57] when we look at it we say oh it's a black thing you know those black people are doing this thing
[01:46:04] because they need this thing but that's really not what's going on um black people are fighting for
[01:46:12] human rights for all people but they're doing it alone as if it's a black thing just to fight
[01:46:19] for black people and that's not what's what actually happens when you look at the history of this country
[01:46:27] from the murdering and genocide of the original people that bringing in the captured enslaved
[01:46:34] Africans and how it has been slowly been changing and there's so much more to do and people are not
[01:46:43] satisfied because in their minds they recognize that it can be much better because that was the past
[01:46:54] that already existed so people know culturally that they can
[01:47:01] they can make it they have a different set of standards about what is good
[01:47:07] and we call that mar arts you know we call that the first moral system that came out of Africa
[01:47:15] that was practiced Africa wide even before ancient Egypt and Kimits and it's a set of principles
[01:47:23] that guides people that they can remember and that we should know about even if we can't remember
[01:47:30] if we talk that then the memory comes back and it feels right and um the thing is that
[01:47:39] everybody's African really you know but it's the race paradigm stops people from
[01:47:50] seeing the equality of human beings stops people from recognizing their ancestors because
[01:47:59] the modern religions don't want you to don't want us to know our ancestors because when we thank
[01:48:08] them for for our achievements we're remembering a history because history that if you believe in
[01:48:18] ancestors then all the way up until now the ancestors that preceded us were those that have been
[01:48:25] with us throughout time and it's only the good people who could be ancestors in the African way
[01:48:32] ancestors are not just people who lived before that you're descended from they are the good people
[01:48:38] that you want to remember forever and and there are Africans who just live to become ancestors
[01:48:45] they just want to fulfill the requirements of becoming ancestors so I hope that makes
[01:48:55] the in a similar sense yes man all right so real quick I've got I really got a couple more questions
[01:49:04] and I don't know if we can get them in but a liberator once said that education is the past for it
[01:49:11] to the future because tomorrow belongs to those who prepare for it today a slaveholder once said
[01:49:19] that if a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization it expects what
[01:49:26] never was and never will be why do you think in today's political climate that education as a whole
[01:49:34] is being devalued well because people don't really understand what education is but it is
[01:49:47] being used in the academy to maintain control of people's knowledge so we're being taught
[01:50:02] European knowledge as if that is the most important knowledge that we should have
[01:50:09] and the academy is even in Africa and around the world are Eurocentric so that we're always
[01:50:18] learning about the greatness and the genius of Europeans under white supremacy as white people
[01:50:28] in the race paradigm and so when that is happening it prevents people from acknowledging that there
[01:50:38] may be other ways of thinking acting believing other orientations other knowledge the truth is
[01:50:49] that all this knowledge has been learnt from everything goes back to Africa all of it has been
[01:50:56] learnt from Africa but it has been taken and put inside the race paradigm to believe
[01:51:04] that white people are the epitome of humanity and really they were a branch of African people who
[01:51:11] lost their melanin and got an strange idea that it's very valuable to be white and try to
[01:51:19] maintain white if they marry into other people it's considered to be genocide inside the white
[01:51:28] supremacist belief system which comes out of the European cultural orientation so white supremacy
[01:51:46] is a part of that and it's a doctrine and we're being taught this doctrine
[01:51:56] that's why people are the super superior people on earth but if we look at chronology of humanity
[01:52:06] the movement of humans chronologically that we find that they are people who have taken knowledge
[01:52:14] from other people taking their lands, taking their wealth and impose ideas of these people's inferiority
[01:52:24] across the world and implanted their own institutions to maintain the belief in their superiority
[01:52:32] but really it's just about violence and aggression that's how they took it and it's very limited
[01:52:43] even for white people who believe in white supremacy it's um you know you
[01:52:53] is really in opposition to ideas of that there is an ethical and moral order
[01:53:05] and a way that one should actually act in order for everybody to to progress and be the best
[01:53:13] that they can be it's antithetical to that because it's saying you can't be anything but what I've
[01:53:20] told you you are and I am I am the superior person I hold the knowledge but what does that knowledge
[01:53:31] mean when you it's a false knowledge it is a falsehood we're believing in something that's not
[01:53:38] really untrue and you can actually see chronologically it's construct how it came about
[01:53:50] how would you encourage African-American parents to take ownership of their children's education
[01:53:56] it is very very difficult because people you know people are suspicious we can all be black but
[01:54:06] we can be very suspicious of black people that's what we've been trained to do so we actually
[01:54:13] don't trust that we can do uh can do what's necessary so people you know it's it's just the cultural
[01:54:24] orientation it's in people's minds we've been trained to see ourselves through the European
[01:54:30] eye and the arabi uh and we're inferior the darker we are the more inferior so it almost becomes like
[01:54:43] a sort of strange strange people who think strange things about education would I trust my children
[01:54:53] with those people even though they're the same color but would I trust them if I send my child to
[01:55:00] Harvard or or school any of the European schools my child will progress and do well that's the belief
[01:55:10] but that that really isn't true but it just depends what our standard of doing well is what
[01:55:19] we want you know so I I wrote my first book and i'm today i'm going to Brazil to interview
[01:55:29] African mothers in Brazil who want to send their children to an Afro-centric school
[01:55:36] and my first book was based on mothers who send their children to Afro-centric schools it's
[01:55:42] called African mothers, bears of culture makers of social change and it is about my reason for it
[01:55:51] was why would these mothers out of all the mothers want their children to know they're African so I
[01:55:59] interviewed them about their lives and their stories and the book is uh based on these mother stories
[01:56:09] so that an ordinary not ordinary we're all extraordinary but a mother could open up the book
[01:56:16] and see a mother in the book just like herself who would would convince her that it is a good idea
[01:56:26] for my child to learn these things these are the accomplishments of these children being loved
[01:56:34] and cared for and learning the skills that they should know in in in a good environment
[01:56:42] and that's what the book is about but it's contextualized by the history of
[01:56:48] of being captured and enslaved and all the movements of women who change those help to change
[01:56:56] those circumstances and I I tried to put those mothers in the same movement people who want to make
[01:57:05] social change because they see beyond what we're being taught to see so as I say I'm going to
[01:57:12] Brazil today after I'll interview to interview young mothers I'm 78 but they have this book
[01:57:23] and they got in touch with me about the book and I put them in touch with
[01:57:31] numbers of the schools but still outbreak because there are still schools
[01:57:38] in this country that still exist and there there should be more of them and so we shall see
[01:57:51] see but understands we're in an anti-African environment and it's in our minds too
[01:57:59] so how can people just like those sisters in Brazil get a hold of that book
[01:58:04] and how can people get in touch with you if they want to have you come and talk about
[01:58:11] Afro-centric curriculums and so on
[01:58:14] well the book you know your friend our friend she's my daughter actually my
[01:58:23] my daughter not of my blood but of my mind's daughter Iosakai
[01:58:30] sells she's the one who published the book because she's publishing books that wouldn't be
[01:58:35] published by the pan-European publishers and but you can actually get it on Amazon it is
[01:58:44] an a cheap book it's not cheap because Iosakai is an independent black woman publisher
[01:58:53] and it costs a lot more money to be able to publish the books that go against the trend
[01:59:00] and something like $55 but it is a book that holds a lot of information for
[01:59:10] parents regarding their children and it's not rigid you know how you get the years in books
[01:59:20] and if your child's not doing certain things in certain years it's you feel like there's
[01:59:26] something wrong with your child this book is not like that it starts with wherever your child is
[01:59:34] and you teach your child it's it's done in the years but you can
[01:59:40] you know see what your child knows and use the book for any ages so if you have a child who's
[01:59:48] you know six years old but thinking like it's 12 year old that's perfect you can go and use
[01:59:56] stuff that's 12 year olds no you know the skills they've developed so so you can
[02:00:03] and because it's a blueprint it's already got the syllabus there but you can build upon it
[02:00:10] you know so it isn't just that that's to give you the examples that you can use
[02:00:18] that actually work but you can add to it as much as you want because it gives you the
[02:00:25] inspiration to think about ways that you would like and information you want the children to have
[02:00:32] so it's in Amazon Iosekai published it and I'll give you my email at Temple so if anyone's
[02:00:42] interested in talking to me I'm happy to to discuss it with people and it's
[02:00:51] um no dots dove at Temple dots edu well doctor dove first of all safe travels
[02:01:02] and second of all thank you for what you're doing what you have been doing all these years
[02:01:11] it has been not only an honor to talk to you and and pick your brain but to just know that
[02:01:18] you're out there doing that work so I thank you for that I have a soft spot for sisters that
[02:01:25] have British accents so uh I greatly appreciate talking to you and I'm just thankful that you came
[02:01:35] on the podcast and hopefully that the parents that are listening will will invest
[02:01:44] um in that book as somebody that went through college uh 55 dollars is cheap compared to the
[02:01:50] textbooks that we had to buy when we were in school so I think it's a it's a long-term investment
[02:01:57] in your children so thank you again for taking the time and coming on the podcast
[02:02:03] it's an absolute pleasure and absolute honor and thank you so much for inviting me thank you
[02:02:09] yes ma'am all right guys and we're going to catch you all on the other side
[02:02:14] okay bye bye dot
[02:02:17] um
[02:02:37] all right and we are back so
[02:02:39] so let me apologize a little bit guys I know um the audio may not have been perfect but I hope
[02:02:51] that you got everything out of those interviews I don't know what's going on as you know I do an
[02:02:58] independent podcast um excuse me this is not a major studio or major network anything like that
[02:03:05] is just me and so I do my best as far as not only getting quality guests and putting the show on
[02:03:12] but also trying to edit and work with the sound quality and all that so um I don't know what was
[02:03:21] happening with my connection is something I'm just going to have to work on for a while
[02:03:26] uh I'm in a different location where I had been so there might be part of the reason but nonetheless
[02:03:34] uh I hope that you got the gist of those interviews and um I'm just going to continue to do better
[02:03:42] but uh I want to thank uh
[02:03:47] ecumenny and uh Glenn and Dr. Doug for coming on
[02:03:54] and uh working through with me as we were trying to get everything set up
[02:04:02] uh and get these interviews to you like I said Glenn and ecumenny I've been trying to get on for
[02:04:07] over a year um and you know um yeah so uh I greatly appreciate Charles patience
[02:04:21] and uh uh I want you all to keep listening and uh keep supporting the podcast and keep telling folks
[02:04:31] about it and um we'll get through it we'll get through it because it's too important now
[02:04:39] uh not to have this voice out there so with that ladies and gentlemen until next time
[02:04:51] you