[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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[00:01:35] Hello and welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host,
[00:01:39] Eric Fleming. All right, what a week, huh? Yeah. I'll get into that as we close out but
[00:01:51] I have two very, very special guests, some powerful sisters coming on
[00:01:58] and really wanted to highlight the work that they're doing
[00:02:04] and we've got a little international flavor because one of the guests is from across the pond in the
[00:02:13] UK. So yeah, we're going to have a good show. I think you're going to really, really appreciate
[00:02:23] it and enjoy it. But now let's go ahead and get this started and we'll kick it off with a
[00:02:31] moment of news with Grace G.
[00:02:41] Thanks, Eric. A New York jury found Donald Trump guilty on 34 felony counts in his hush money
[00:02:48] trial. Judge Eileen Cannon refused to issue a gag order preventing Donald Trump from making
[00:02:54] inflammatory comments about law enforcement. US Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito will not
[00:03:01] recuse himself from cases involving Donald Trump despite reports that flags associated
[00:03:07] with Trump supporters were flown at Alito's residences. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
[00:03:13] Netanyahu announced an investigation into a deadly airstrike in Rafa Gaza that killed
[00:03:19] dozens of Palestinians. Partial South African election results indicate that the African
[00:03:25] National Congress is set to lose the parliamentary majority it has held for 30 years.
[00:03:31] Louisiana's governor signed a bill reclassifying two abortion-inducing medications as controlled
[00:03:37] substances, making it harder for residents to obtain them. The NCAA agreed to allow schools
[00:03:44] to share revenue with athletes and pay nearly $2.8 billion in damages. American Airlines faces
[00:03:51] a lawsuit for allegedly removing three black men from a flight due to racial discrimination.
[00:03:58] The US Supreme Court has revived the NRA's lawsuit against a New York official for allegedly
[00:04:04] coercing banks and insurers to shun the gun rights group. The US Supreme Court also refused
[00:04:10] to hear Michael Avenatti's appeal to overturn his conviction for extorting Nike. The
[00:04:16] Democratic National Committee will conduct a virtual roll call to nominate Joe Biden
[00:04:22] before the Ohio legal certification deadline. And Bill Walton, a celebrated NBA champion and
[00:04:30] broadcaster, passed away at the age of 71 after battling cancer. I am Grace G.
[00:04:37] And this has been a moment of news.
[00:04:48] All right, thank you, Grace, as always for that moment of news. Now it is time for my first guest
[00:04:57] Sabrina Clark. Sabrina's mission is to create space, tell beautifully complex stories,
[00:05:07] make our world sustainable and disrupt so there is access. The golden brain is a term used for
[00:05:14] individuals who operate adeptly with both the left and right sides of their brain.
[00:05:20] The golden brain accurately describes Sabrina's approach and the portfolio she has designed.
[00:05:27] Sabrina is the managing partner of Build Global, her company. Sabrina took her experience
[00:05:33] roles such as senior manager at Ernst & Young and vice president investment banking
[00:05:39] and structured capital markets to start her company. Build Global is an award-winning
[00:05:46] strategy firm that provides energy, financial services, pharmaceutical, and technology companies
[00:05:54] with strategy, transformation, and sustainability services. Also a creator, Sabrina is the
[00:06:03] founder of Lateral Theory, a digital media company that creates original content for audio,
[00:06:08] streaming, and film. Sabrina is an executive producer with various credited projects including
[00:06:15] the creator, executive producer, and director of the award-winning audiovisual podcast,
[00:06:22] Breaking Bread. Sabrina is the founder and president of the Liberian Business Alliance,
[00:06:28] a social enterprise committed to the economic development of Liberia.
[00:06:33] Sabrina is an acclaimed keynote speaker. Her credits include TEDx, Fidelity International,
[00:06:40] Metta, MediaTel, Harvard Business School, House of Lords, Tomicon, and Pension Protection Fund.
[00:06:50] Sabrina is a fiction and non-fiction writer sharing her insights and analysis. Sabrina will
[00:06:56] be publishing her first collection of fictional short stories soon. Sabrina is also an award-winning
[00:07:03] entrepreneur whose accolades include Befta Legend Award recipient and 50 Most Inspirational Black
[00:07:11] Women in the UK, African Glitz Magazine. Sabrina is a Royal Society of Arts, Manufacturing,
[00:07:19] and Commerce Fellow, a non-executive director,
[00:07:24] or I should say non-profit executive director, and trustee whose previous roles have included
[00:07:30] appointments to Dot Everyone and Theater 503. As a responsible business owner, Sabrina started
[00:07:39] Bill Global Ventures. Bill Global Ventures is designed to break the barrier of access to
[00:07:45] capital experienced by underrepresented founders. Bill Global Ventures invests in
[00:07:50] and advises a select number of companies that are led by underrepresented founders.
[00:07:57] Companies are researched and selected by the Bill Global team. Sabrina is a leader amongst
[00:08:04] equals, collaborating and forming partnerships, operating with radical candor. Some of her
[00:08:11] principles include excellence, not perfection, and value, not volume. Ladies and gentlemen,
[00:08:18] it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest all the way from across the pond
[00:08:26] Sabrina Clark. All right, Sabrina Clark. How you doing, sister? You doing good?
[00:08:48] I am doing very well, and it's a pleasure to be here with you, Eric. Thank you for
[00:08:52] the invitation. Well, first of all, I was honored that you responded so quickly.
[00:08:59] I have listened to your podcast, and I wish I had that many friends where I could invite
[00:09:04] to dinner and have a conversation, but unfortunately, I'm not that gracious.
[00:09:10] But I like the format of it. And then the other thing that... Oh, you're welcome. And
[00:09:18] then the other thing that appealed to me was on your LinkedIn profile, you talked about
[00:09:26] the golden brain. So I want to get into that a little bit. But before we get started,
[00:09:33] what I like to do to break the ice is to throw a quote at the guest. And your quote is this,
[00:09:41] What does that quote mean to you?
[00:09:58] So for everyone in context where that quote comes from, I was a delegate for the Council
[00:10:08] of Status of Women 68 hosted by the United Nations in March of 2024. And that quote comes from
[00:10:16] a diary format that I did of my entire experience and where I see gender equality progressing
[00:10:24] and how it should progress. And what that quote means is all of these different entities
[00:10:31] can't be in isolation. We can't look at the pace of gender equality by the pace of cultural norms
[00:10:40] because we know how long it takes for things to change. For example, paying women what they are
[00:10:47] valued at, not worth, but valued in the marketplace has taken almost 70 years and we're
[00:10:53] nowhere close to that. So if we were to wait for cultural norms to shift on pay, just on pay
[00:10:59] alone, it would probably be 70 years from now on that. What about everything else? In 1978,
[00:11:06] women couldn't even sign for their own credit cards. So we can't wait for cultural norms
[00:11:13] and the system to speed up at the pace for change. We have to set the pace of change.
[00:11:18] That's what that quote means. Yeah. And the scary thing is, Sister Clark, is that I'm old
[00:11:23] enough to remember that. When my mom couldn't get a credit card because when she was able to get one,
[00:11:30] oh boy, she got as many of them. She got one. She even went and got a driver's license and she
[00:11:38] never drove a car. She was, what do they call it now? Passenger princess is the term now.
[00:11:44] She was forever that and she taught drivers that but only the classroom. But she specifically
[00:11:51] got a driver's license to get as many credit cards as she could. So before we get any deeper,
[00:12:01] you're a very, very successful business person in the UK and one of the things that you are
[00:12:10] branded as is the golden brain entrepreneur. So explain the concept of the golden brain.
[00:12:19] The concept of the golden brain is for individuals who use their left and right brains adeptly.
[00:12:28] I am somebody who is as technical as I am creative and so that's why the golden brain
[00:12:35] entrepreneur very aptly describes me and the portfolio that I've created. As we get into the
[00:12:42] conversation about business or my businesses, you'll see how geeky and technical I am but at the
[00:12:49] same time you listen to my podcast that I've executive produced. You know that I produce
[00:12:54] shorts. I also write both fiction and nonfiction and so I get to explore the creative side of
[00:13:01] who I am and those two things don't typically come together in one person but they do with me.
[00:13:07] Now are you left-handed? I'm not. I'm a right-hand person. Okay so they say that I'm left-handed.
[00:13:18] They said oh well you use both sides of your brain because you have to right left-handed and
[00:13:25] I was like okay whatever. So now I can say I have a golden brain. I understand that concept
[00:13:35] comes from science fiction. The actual language? No the language actually comes from science. It's
[00:13:42] been used in science fiction so for the people who are Marvelites like me and Trekkies will
[00:13:48] know or have heard that term through the earth either through Star Trek or the Marvels so it
[00:13:53] has been adapted in science science fiction but it does come from science. Okay all right
[00:13:57] well I'm both of those so yeah I'm familiar. What lessons have you learned
[00:14:05] in business that you try to share with other women of color entrepreneurs?
[00:14:13] There are so many lessons. The first thing I always go back to is make sure you choose the
[00:14:25] right accountant before all the other things. Choose the right accountant. That will save you
[00:14:38] a lot of issues in drama and it also forces you to think about your cash flow,
[00:14:44] profitability, all the non-sexy things that makes a business run effectively. And so that
[00:14:51] is the core lesson. The first lesson secondly make sure that you build a proposition that is clear
[00:14:59] that people want to pay for. In my business I'm a consultant so I am letting people know
[00:15:05] things that they haven't thought of and selling them and selling it. And so it doesn't
[00:15:10] necessarily have to be a pain point a client has identified. You can spot it ahead of time
[00:15:16] and sell it in. So for example with business sustainability everyone's talking about sustainability
[00:15:23] now. When I thought of this process no one was talking about business sustainability
[00:15:29] and so is being able to identify the gaps in the market and building a proposition around
[00:15:34] that and making sure that it's priced appropriately pricing is the other thing as well. A lot
[00:15:41] of times particularly when it comes to women we're in a difficult position because there are
[00:15:46] a group of people who may not want to pay for the services at the value that they should be
[00:15:50] paying for. So being able to identify your clients, the group of people who will pay you
[00:15:55] for your service at the rates that they need to pay it at is very important. So those would
[00:15:59] be the three things identifying your accountant and choosing the right one. Making sure
[00:16:06] that you are clear about your proposition and then ensure that you have the right pricing
[00:16:11] structure in place. Yeah and you know on the accounting piece my cousin-in-law
[00:16:22] was a forensic accountant for like the U.S. government department of justice basically.
[00:16:31] Oh interesting. He did that for a long time and so when he retired from that he had like
[00:16:42] standing business waiting for him to hire him you know it's like hey man we need you to come
[00:16:45] on and help us out so he set up his own consulting firm so he can advise people
[00:16:52] on what not to do on their books and all that kind of stuff. I mean absolutely. Yeah so you know
[00:17:00] the accounting piece is not just knowing where your assets and liabilities are but also
[00:17:05] how to properly do that so you won't get in trouble with the IRS or anybody else because
[00:17:11] that's kind of a downfall that you know a lot of our people fall into the trap. We hear
[00:17:19] stories all the time here in the United States about you know famous athletes and celebrities
[00:17:26] and you know they messed up on their taxes and all that stuff so when you said that was the
[00:17:31] first thing and especially because we have a lot of contractors with the government and I assume
[00:17:37] that's the same way in the UK. You know a minority business is trying to get
[00:17:43] government contracts and you know you mess up on that Medicaid or something else
[00:17:50] you know the billing and all that stuff they coming for you. So absolutely and it's two parts
[00:17:57] it's the right thing but also making sure why to choose the right accountant is because how
[00:18:02] many stories have we heard about the accountant stealing from their clients the client doesn't
[00:18:06] know and they still have to serve time because ultimately as the business owner you are
[00:18:10] responsible for what goes on in your business even if you didn't know and you couldn't read a
[00:18:14] balance sheet or a P&L sheet the HMRC which is what it is in the United Kingdom and the IRS
[00:18:22] do not care. You are still accountable for that. Yeah I almost got caught up with it
[00:18:27] with my non-with a nonprofit I was working for so yes ladies men anybody that's getting in
[00:18:36] you go sign Eric you go sign. You better get you an accountant that you can trust somebody that
[00:18:45] you know you got to do it amen sister to that.
[00:18:52] You've been oh let me ask you this question so
[00:18:55] you said that impact is leveraging your voice politically and economically so how do you
[00:19:02] navigate the world of politics with your business? So with my business I wear a few hats
[00:19:16] and when it comes to engaging in politics I do not with my business. I have to be politically
[00:19:24] aware and we have to be politically aware because of the type of business that we do
[00:19:29] from a Build Global. So for the people listening I am managing partner of my own business Build
[00:19:36] Global which is a strategy firm here actually the only strategy firm led by a Black woman
[00:19:42] with a combination of services that we provide in this country and so we provide strategy
[00:19:49] transformation and business sustainability services. From a business sustainability service
[00:19:56] and from a strategy service that's where politics come into play because in order to design a
[00:20:03] corporate strategy we have to look at what's happening politically in the environment that our
[00:20:07] clients work in the businesses that they want to acquire the governments that are currently
[00:20:11] in power or those who may be coming over and the potential regulations and laws that might
[00:20:17] impact their cost of business services or goods. From a business sustainability perspective
[00:20:24] business sustainability as we define it is the triple bottom line so how companies can be
[00:20:30] profitable by not damaging people planets etc. So there we are looking at the political context
[00:20:41] for which that company is doing business. We have a particular focus on economic sustainability
[00:20:47] so looking at all of the macro factors for which politics is completely intertwined
[00:20:53] in terms of the parties, in terms of rates, in terms of compliance regulation when people
[00:21:00] come into office stock markers go up or down or crash all of these things have an impact and
[00:21:06] also there's a lot of lobbying that goes on in everywhere in the world because we provide
[00:21:11] support to global clients. If people are lobbying we also have to be aware of that so for
[00:21:18] example energy is one of the sectors that we focus on there's huge lobbying that happens
[00:21:23] with oil and gas companies everywhere in the world so we have to be aware of those dynamics
[00:21:28] when we're advising clients when it comes to sustainability. Being aware being savvy about
[00:21:35] it is how we navigate but we do not get involved in the foolishness. Yeah and that
[00:21:43] that's important that you have to have that balance as an individual citizen you have a voice
[00:21:49] and you have a right but your company you have to kind of moderate that a little bit and
[00:22:00] in the United States we put a lot of pressure on companies to get involved in causes
[00:22:06] and I explained to people they're not going to get involved unless it's something that
[00:22:12] improves their bottom line right every now and then you'll have a maverick but that maverick
[00:22:19] has enough equity in the bank where they take a position it's not going to hurt them like
[00:22:26] what happened with Disney in Florida it's like okay you want to kick us out of Florida
[00:22:31] really you think that's gonna happen you know what I'm saying? You know so you know you just
[00:22:37] have to you know you have to be cognizant of where you are and what you're doing so
[00:22:42] I think that's important advice to give especially go ahead. And it's also it may
[00:22:49] not improve your bottom line but you don't want to have a reputational risk by not
[00:22:54] engaging so when George Floyd was murdered everyone in the world was recognizing his
[00:23:00] murder and the companies who weren't making statements about it felt to be percussions of
[00:23:05] their actions so it may not be commercially viable but it's a reputational risk and
[00:23:12] therefore you are forced to engage and that's the importance of the public voice and leverage
[00:23:18] but ultimately these are for-profit entities they are there to make money and therefore
[00:23:24] what they do will be aligned specifically to that objective. Right. Speaking about making money
[00:23:32] you've been active in developing trade relationships with your heritage nation of Liberia
[00:23:38] how would you advise the African diaspora situated here in America to follow suit?
[00:23:47] So Africa is open for business so my advice to the diaspora is whatever your interest is
[00:23:58] you can find that in Liberia which is my heritage country in Nigeria, South Africa,
[00:24:04] Botswana you name it over 50 you can find that interest. So the first thing is what is your
[00:24:11] interest and do you want that interest to be commercial or do you want it to be supportive
[00:24:16] or enabling? Not everybody going to the continent is interested in business pursuits they just
[00:24:22] want may want to use their skills to give back in a specific way so which side of
[00:24:27] that equation do you sit on once you identify that then what is the best country for you
[00:24:33] to do that in? I am a Liberian woman so I will always give my skills back to my heritage
[00:24:39] country at the same time I'm also a pan-Africanist so I support all countries and all of the
[00:24:44] continent will benefit from my skills and so some people may have an affinity specifically to
[00:24:51] Ethiopia or they may have an affinity specifically to Kenya and that's where they
[00:24:57] want to allocate their time. So where do you have your affinity? Where is it aligned
[00:25:01] with your interests? The third thing I would say is when you go, go to actively listen first
[00:25:09] sometimes diasporans have this condescension and arrogance that they take with them that is not
[00:25:15] helpful to anyone and particularly when it comes to building a partnership which is what we need
[00:25:19] partnerships which is what we need to do so go with listening first you have your expertise but
[00:25:25] so do the people who are locals to the country and so listen to what they have to say and you
[00:25:30] may have to refine so that is what happened with me with the Liberian Business Alliance
[00:25:35] I specifically wanted to focus on trade entrepreneurs etc bringing diasporan businesses
[00:25:40] to the country. I went on the ground and actually I found the grades for need was
[00:25:44] supporting entrepreneurs who are already there and that wouldn't have happened without me going
[00:25:49] there with an open mind actively listening and saying actually this is the better approach
[00:25:53] so those would be the things that I would advise. Yeah I really appreciate you saying
[00:25:59] that and being open and honest about it because there's a dynamic happening in the
[00:26:03] United States that really really pisses me off and in that people that black Africans,
[00:26:15] Kula, Kula Banzai everyone identifies you know that were born here in the United States
[00:26:23] there seems to be some kind of rift with our cousins from the continent that come
[00:26:30] and it seems to be it falls under the line of arrogance right of not being open minded
[00:26:39] there's a classic scene from a movie School Days where Larry Frishburn's character who's
[00:26:47] a pan-Africanist is confronting the leader of fraternity and he's talking about we got
[00:26:52] to connect with Africa got to get back and the leader fraternity says I'm not from Africa
[00:26:57] I'm from Detroit. Right. You know what I'm saying? I love School Days. I'm a spiky girl so yeah.
[00:27:04] Yeah. So it's like you know and but in now with social media we're seeing that in real time
[00:27:12] and so that's why I was excited to get you on because you are African but you are in
[00:27:23] in another nation you know a whole nother continent just like Africans here and you
[00:27:32] know you're you're trying to make that connection you're trying to to enhance
[00:27:40] relationships and you know we had that kind of spirit here at one point Leon Sullivan was
[00:27:46] like a major voice in that shout out to West Virginia State University where my mom went to
[00:27:50] school but I feel that that tension is is hitting inhibiting that. First of all do you have that
[00:28:03] kind of tension in the UK similar to what I just described here in the United States or
[00:28:10] is it different because of the history? The tension is different with two different groups
[00:28:18] so I'm aware of the tension in the states and I'll come to that in just a moment. The tension
[00:28:22] here is between the Caribbean community and the African community who are either first, second,
[00:28:29] or third generation British. What's interesting about me is people some people assume that I'm
[00:28:36] American some people assume that I'm Caribbean a lot of people don't assume that my heritage is
[00:28:42] African or or Liberian so because they can't quite place me I'm able to initially be the
[00:28:49] recipient of different vibes from different groups and different conversations and that tension is
[00:28:57] quite visceral because you do have a huge community of different groups so a huge
[00:29:03] communities of Ghanaians, Nigerians, Jamaicans etc in the country and it goes from one extreme
[00:29:10] to the other and it's very tribal and that tension is there. That is different from the
[00:29:16] tension that I see in the US with American born Black people or the Aidos community
[00:29:25] and Black Africans coming into the United States and part of that fault is on both sides
[00:29:34] with arrogance. The arrogance and the xenophobia of American born Black people I experienced it
[00:29:43] one because I spent some time in the states that's where my accent partly comes from.
[00:29:47] I was called an African bush boogie, an African booty scratcher, and all the rest of
[00:29:50] it from Black people so there's that xenophobia and that bigotry there. At the same time
[00:29:59] with Africans who come into the United States there is that arrogance, that superiority already
[00:30:05] complex of thinking they're better than Black Americans. The stereotypical ideas of being
[00:30:13] lazy or not one of them we need to set apart not really understanding because they come from
[00:30:19] majority Black countries how damaging white supremacy and racism is and how that is
[00:30:24] intrinsic in everything. So you have two sides with very distinct issues projecting on each other
[00:30:32] now are all Africans that way? No they're not. Are all Americans that way? No they're not
[00:30:37] but that rift in my view has been amplified over the past I would say seven years. It was
[00:30:44] in the beginning like years ago when I was there because I was called those names but then
[00:30:48] it wasn't as much I would say as it is now or has been over the past seven eight years
[00:30:53] and I think a lot of that is probably attributed to the reparations conversation and who should be
[00:30:59] getting reparations should the U.S. government choose to ever give Black people reparations so
[00:31:04] they even though they do give reparations they have given the reparations to every other group
[00:31:09] and I think it amplifies that so it's unfortunate because I am as I said a
[00:31:14] Pan-Africanist I believe that we are successful together bringing our skill sets bringing our ideas
[00:31:24] bringing our movements across the globe to really further us as a community so when we
[00:31:29] get into this in-fighting with each other not appreciating our differences nobody wins
[00:31:36] when the family feuds. Right exactly exactly you can't be fighting at the cookout boys and girls
[00:31:43] that's what we're trying to tell you I can't be fighting in the cook so anyway because that leads
[00:31:48] me to a real life tragic story I'm not gonna go there but um so let's get into that question
[00:31:56] about comparisons are there are there similarities in the struggles of Blacks in the UK
[00:32:04] are they similar to the struggles that Blacks face in the United States?
[00:32:08] The similar struggle is that Black people in the United Kingdom are dealing with racism
[00:32:15] that's the similar struggle dealing with white supremacy that is a similar struggle
[00:32:21] how racism shows up in the United Kingdom is very different in the UK Black people also
[00:32:27] dealing with class, classism and classism does not show up at all in the U.S. yet it's
[00:32:36] the U.S. yet it's starting to but it does not show up yet at all in the United States
[00:32:42] so that layer of racism of classism of white supremacy and then colonialism which I do not
[00:32:50] think having lived in both places colonialism shows up in the U.S. in the way that it does
[00:32:55] in the UK those would be the differences it is insidious it's not explicit it's death by a
[00:33:03] thousand cuts yes you have some explicit incident and you will have people killed by the police
[00:33:11] people dying like Stephen Lawrence etc in the in the United Kingdom a youth that that
[00:33:16] that was murdered but it's very implicit is very micro aggressive on steroids which makes
[00:33:25] it difficult to pinpoint unless you know exactly what's going on yeah so funny story
[00:33:33] um when the queen died I was trying to get some brothers and sisters to come on the podcast
[00:33:40] from the UK to kind of talk about what that meant nobody wanted nobody wanted to get on
[00:33:49] nobody wanted to get on the podcast and and do that but you know I'm watching I'm seeing
[00:33:54] people like Trevor Noah I'm you know who's here but he grew up in South Africa and
[00:33:59] you know I'm seeing and I was watching the visceral reactions about you know because in
[00:34:05] the United States the queen was kind of a a lovable figure right it was like oh she was
[00:34:13] riding her horses oh she's got her corgis you know this cute little woman with the big crown
[00:34:17] okay it's fine it's like everybody that's come to the United States and met her it's like boom
[00:34:22] but then you you have to understand the history and it's like yes the reason why she's got those
[00:34:28] jewels is because they took them from this part of the African continent or that part
[00:34:33] it was because the sun never set on the British empire at its highest moment so a lot of people
[00:34:40] in the United States especially some black folks were kind of like well we could care less
[00:34:44] about the queen and you know everybody liked Princess Diana but you know it's like the queen
[00:34:49] is what she is you know what I'm saying and so it wasn't that connection so it's like to
[00:34:55] hear somebody from the UK or you know somebody you know from the countries that used to be under
[00:35:02] the empire it was it was it was like so what she's dead you know what difference is it you
[00:35:09] know I'm saying people were very very very cold and and you kind of laughed when I said
[00:35:15] nobody wanted to talk about it what what was kind of the the vibe why did why did a lot
[00:35:21] of black people not want to talk about or react to publicly the the death of the queen
[00:35:30] because and I will say this because I I'm have an affinity had an affinity still have an
[00:35:37] affinity for Queen Elizabeth because of her servant leadership however I parsed that with
[00:35:48] if you were to think about a living embodiment of colonialism and the transatlantic slave trade
[00:35:57] that is what she represents she is the empire and you will not find you will not get at what
[00:36:04] that doesn't surprise me a black person coming on to any platform unless they were
[00:36:11] a right-wing associate or right-wing leaning talking about her in reverence because of that
[00:36:19] history the empire is built on the backs of black people through slavery so there is no
[00:36:28] way to acknowledge that during that time even though I personally can parse that with the
[00:36:36] conflictive truth of what she represents with the conflicted truth of the jewels
[00:36:42] that she had and what it meant Liberia was not colonized by the British it was actually
[00:36:49] colonized by Americans and specifically black people so it's a very different lineage even
[00:36:57] though I was and was born in London and so because I have the different ingredients that make
[00:37:05] of my identity there is a nuance that I can navigate that other people who don't have
[00:37:11] that an identity cannot and I completely understand it yeah yeah and that's that's kind of the vibe
[00:37:18] I was trying to get on but um so I'm glad that you accepted accepted invitation again
[00:37:25] because I mean seriously because I mean it's like you know that's that's the essence of why
[00:37:32] I do this is because I want people to understand that it's not just simple as seeing a nice little
[00:37:39] story in the national inquire or the new york times nice little nice little lady with her
[00:37:43] handbag walking everywhere you know that it's loaded yeah there's some loaded history there
[00:37:48] just like it's loaded history here and I'm glad you mentioned the history about Liberia
[00:37:53] and stuff too um because I actually had a friend I forget the lady's name who was the
[00:37:59] president of Liberia I guess she was the first lady and a friend of mine yeah and she said
[00:38:05] I'm going to the thing I said you're going to the Liberian and I great she said yeah she's
[00:38:10] related to me I said get out of here you know what I'm saying I mean but and then I had to
[00:38:15] think about it yeah that's that that's very very feasible heck I might need to check and
[00:38:19] see if I can get an invite you know what I'm saying you know it's like but most of my
[00:38:27] folks from according to my DNA check so far like Nigeria something like that but anyway um
[00:38:36] so let's talk about British politics for a minute and I want it and I want to talk to you
[00:38:42] about uh which so let me ask you this question which had the most impact on your business
[00:38:49] was it the after effects of the pandemic or the after effects of Brexit
[00:38:56] the after effects of the pandemic okay Brexit was very good for business we are in the
[00:39:02] transformation strategy space so the more disruption there is in the world the better
[00:39:06] it is for my business okay all right that was simple yeah so now I understand that the
[00:39:17] British prime minister and forgive me I don't remember his name right off Rishi Rishi Sunak
[00:39:23] Sunak uh he's called for elections in July of this year am I correct on that yes on the
[00:39:31] fourth of July to be precise an interesting choice oh I thought well you know I mean
[00:39:38] as they used to say back in the day it's that that's always kind of cheeky and
[00:39:43] you know but kind of explain to to my listeners why is that happening and what impact
[00:39:53] can it have on blacks in the UK because I think it's very interesting that the United Kingdom is
[00:39:59] now going to have a major election in the same year that the United States is having
[00:40:04] a major election that could change the dynamics of how we are how we govern or
[00:40:14] we literally could be in my opinion we literally could be in an autocracy in the
[00:40:20] United States I don't think y'all that extreme over there although Brexit was kind of considered
[00:40:27] like an ultra right-wing movement or the start of a nationalist movement there um explain the
[00:40:35] significance how y'all can just call an election whatever y'all want to and why this
[00:40:41] election is important so let me let me give some context so first of all 50 percent of the world
[00:40:50] is voting this year so it's not just the UK it's not just the US 50 percent which is a huge
[00:40:57] huge percentage of people voting and therefore the shifts of power around the world
[00:41:04] Rishi Sunak was never voted in he was ever democratically elected as a prime minister
[00:41:10] Liz Truss was the prime minister she lasted for about two seconds they got her out of
[00:41:16] the conservative party and then he was brought in he was never elected and therefore a general
[00:41:24] elections would need to happen for the conservative party and labor in order for
[00:41:30] it to it to be considered done I'll put it that way
[00:41:36] The conservative party has been in power in the United Kingdom now for over 10 years
[00:41:41] there is a movement across Europe, the UK and the US of the right wing.
[00:41:53] The snap election isn't so snap we needed to have an election this year now it is within
[00:42:01] the gift of the prime minister to say when and he chose the 4th of July
[00:42:09] but this is something that the British people have been calling for for a period of time
[00:42:14] and now it's finally here what does this election mean for black people in the UK
[00:42:20] it depends on which class you sit in in the UK so if you are a business owner
[00:42:27] what it means for me from a tax perspective I'm very interested in corporation taxes currently 19%
[00:42:34] that I have to pay period so I'm interested in corporation tax I'm interested in national
[00:42:42] insurance tax which would be similar to social security in the US I'm interested in all you
[00:42:48] know using contingent workers contractors or freelancers if they're going to change that
[00:42:53] they're going to change that law what does that mean so if you are a business owner it means
[00:42:58] something specific for you as a black person if you are a landlord it has its implications
[00:43:05] when it comes to social justice I looked at for a different reason the labor party which
[00:43:12] would be closest to the democrats in the US and conservative closest to the republicans
[00:43:18] just to give give your audience context though there are nuances but in terms of
[00:43:22] saying which one is aligned to what they are all focused on health care we know that from
[00:43:31] a black or brown perspective in this country health care is free for everyone but the wait
[00:43:38] times are very long they both want to address that if there are any pressures in the system
[00:43:43] the marginalized gets impacted black women in particular the black mortality rates in terms of
[00:43:51] pregnancies is quite high so if that's not addressed that directly affects us when it comes
[00:43:59] to things like salary pay there is a report called the parker review that's asking for
[00:44:06] more transparency on how much black people are people of colourful stop of black people
[00:44:11] being part of that are being paid across corporations and whose in power affects that
[00:44:17] and they've done it for gender is now time that's being done for black people and those
[00:44:23] are the core things everything else is still unclear so the conservative party doesn't have
[00:44:28] a manifesto they have manifestos in this country that people can go to and read they're talking
[00:44:34] about stop the boats which is on immigrations which is very similar to the republican focus
[00:44:39] on the building a wall or the border wall situations there's nothing else what does it mean
[00:44:46] what does it mean for us we don't know so between now and july and i doubt that it'll be addressed
[00:44:53] quite frankly between now and in july it'll be very much from a class perspective but the
[00:44:59] social things that affect black people in this country the majority parties unclear so we have
[00:45:08] to wait and see now how many viable political parties are there in the uk because we always
[00:45:14] hear about the labor and the conservative but how many there's actually more than just those two
[00:45:21] there they are there's roughly about 10 um viable if they form coalitions they become viable
[00:45:31] because they they pick up targets of the voting public so um the liberal democrats for example
[00:45:39] if they were to form a coalition uh with labor that would be an interesting
[00:45:46] uh a coalition the scottish national party or liberal democrats not that that would ever happen
[00:45:51] but as an example um but viable are the two leading parties if the coalition build then it
[00:45:57] becomes very interesting yeah so it's like and the term i use viable i i assume that i think
[00:46:05] there are some liberal democrats and scottish national party people in parliament right they
[00:46:10] yeah they're all they're all represented in in parliament but it's the the constituency
[00:46:16] constituencies that they represent if the coalition builds it becomes interesting so unlike
[00:46:22] the united states where it's a two-party system well the green party exists but is really
[00:46:27] a two-party system um if an independent you know runs for president if they're a billionaire
[00:46:33] or they get in the votes they might be uh viable as a singular person unlike the uk where there
[00:46:42] are a constituency that exists for these groups it's not just one person coming out of nowhere
[00:46:46] they do they are represented in parliament they are represented in the constituencies within
[00:46:51] in the country yeah that was that was great entertainment for me uh turning on c-span on like
[00:46:59] you know like early wednesday mornings here in the states and uh and watching parliament do that
[00:47:06] thing it you know and and the way that these folks are acting here they're kind of getting
[00:47:14] a little raucous you know i'm like it was interesting for you now i'm like i'm sitting
[00:47:20] here sipping my earl grey tea to beach blonde bad built book all at all oh yeah yeah it's
[00:47:28] getting off the chain here and both of those ladies it looks like are going to be re-elected
[00:47:33] their position so it's going to be interesting to see how that progresses but yeah i just you
[00:47:39] know i always find it fascinating and so i'm really again i'm glad uh sister clark that you
[00:47:46] were able to come on so this is the part of program where the guest gets to tout what they
[00:47:53] do and how people can get in touch with them so go ahead and plug away so i spoke about my business
[00:48:01] build global if you are an energy financial services or technology multinational and you
[00:48:08] want to focus on growing your business outside of the u.s or expanding in emerging markets or
[00:48:15] need a business sustainability plan then reach out to me from a bill global perspective
[00:48:20] we didn't have a conversation about lateral theory which is my creative side my company
[00:48:26] where i have my own podcast breaking bread where i have guests around a dinner table
[00:48:31] to discuss all things politics cultures etc you name it so you can check me out at
[00:48:36] lateral theory i also write my own sub stack sabrina verse so you can hear my perspective
[00:48:43] or read my perspective on a range of things my latest article just came out is about
[00:48:48] puffy and i tell it that he is he has power but is not powerful and the video was a warning shot
[00:48:57] so i explore the dynamics in power in culture and business so at sabrina verse with the z
[00:49:05] or a z as we say in the uk on instagram or build global dot com or lateral theory dot com
[00:49:12] all right well sabrina clark you you live up to the golden brain label you are very very
[00:49:20] intelligent and and very aware of what's going on and that is a that is a blessing for
[00:49:28] not only your your folks but it's a blessing for me and my listeners and i'm really again
[00:49:33] honored that you took the time to come on the podcast thank you oh and by the way
[00:49:38] by the way you know now that you've been a guest this is an open invitation so anytime
[00:49:43] you want to come on just let me know and uh you're more than welcome and if i happen
[00:49:49] to be in the uk and you need an american you know yeah you can invite me over for dinner
[00:49:58] when you're here eric you are you have to give me a heads up you are welcome anytime
[00:50:02] thank you very much i mentioned earlier i love politics so if you ever want to chop it up over
[00:50:07] politics i am definitely that girl all right guys and uh we'll catch y'all on the other side
[00:50:35] all right and we are back and so now
[00:50:40] it is time for my next guest dr agatha caraballo dr agatha caraballo is the founding director
[00:50:50] of the maurice a for ray institute for civic leadership and an associate teaching professor
[00:50:57] for the department of public policy and administration in the stephen j green school
[00:51:02] of international and public affairs at florida international university miami's public research
[00:51:09] university where she is also an affiliate faculty in the african and african diaspora
[00:51:16] studies and masters of arts in global affairs programs ladies and gentlemen it is my distinct
[00:51:23] honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast dr agatha caraballo all right dr
[00:51:50] agatha caraballo how bad did i butcher that is that okay not too bad caraballo caraballo
[00:51:59] caraballo i gotta get my uh get my my my r's caraballo doctor how you doing you doing good
[00:52:08] i'm doing good good morning thanks for having me well i'm i'm honored to have you on um i like
[00:52:16] educators a lot my mom was a a teacher uh i dabbled in it a little bit and uh but
[00:52:25] i know that it was the professors at at jackson state that really kind of
[00:52:31] gave me the blessing and the and and the nurturing and all that stuff to get me into
[00:52:36] politics uh so um and and you're definitely one of those people in at florida international so
[00:52:46] wanted to give you some shine and uh you know and get you to talk a little bit about what you do
[00:52:54] and why civic leadership civic engagement is important but before we get into that
[00:53:02] what i do the kind of start the interview off is that i offer a quote to the guests
[00:53:07] so your quote is over the years i've learned that you can change the world by changing one
[00:53:15] person's life my life's mission is to help others and do what i can to make this world
[00:53:23] a better place what does that quote mean to you i love that and it completely resonates
[00:53:29] with me um in the sense of it's corny as it sounds i am a firm believer and that you know
[00:53:35] you can change the world by changing one person's you know trajectory and trajectory
[00:53:39] in the world um i'm very blessed to do what i love and love what i do you know as an educator
[00:53:48] even you know despite all the challenges and you know frustrations i kind of come along with
[00:53:53] that i feel very fortunate to work in this position and just to work with so many other
[00:53:58] with so many amazing people not only the students the faculty the staff the community members um
[00:54:05] miami has been very good to me since i moved out here 25 years now um but yeah no it's just
[00:54:13] to introduce myself you know as um dr agatha gadovayo um i just actually just got promoted
[00:54:20] so i'm going to be a teaching professor um starting in the fall yeah congratulations
[00:54:26] now you don't now before you get into that now and i didn't tell you that in the pre thing but
[00:54:31] i'm one of those people that i don't like to hear my bio while i'm being interviewed so i've
[00:54:37] already done the intro everybody knows who you are uh okay so that's my fault people i
[00:54:43] guess know that in that sense that i'm somebody that i've been very fortunate to work not only
[00:54:50] as a faculty but also as an administrator um and just you know have opportunities to get
[00:54:55] involved in my community and hopefully inspire others to do the same yeah yeah and i and i
[00:55:00] apologize for that for not for telling you that but yeah i you know i've done a lot of
[00:55:05] interviews yeah you know i've done a lot of interviews and you know and it's like and eric
[00:55:10] fliming did this and it's look i you know this is not a eulogy let's let's get on with
[00:55:16] the conversation all right so but i do want you to talk about the uh institute so this is
[00:55:24] the maurice a foray institute for civic leadership talk about how it got started who
[00:55:32] is named for what and what is the mission of the of the institute absolutely so for those who
[00:55:40] may not know marice foray was a former mayor and public service servant in miami florida he
[00:55:48] started his career in the 60s late 60s early 70s as a state legislator in florida then later
[00:55:55] went on to be on a city commissioner and then the mayor of miami from 1973 to 1985
[00:56:02] which anybody can associate miami and the whole miami vice period this was a very tumultuous
[00:56:07] time in miami's history so he was the first puerto rican-born mayor first hispanic mayor of
[00:56:13] miami but really significantly became mayor of miami at a time when the hispanic population
[00:56:19] was nowhere where it is today while he was in office especially in 1980 he was dealing with
[00:56:26] the mcduffey race riots the maryell boatlift the cocaine cowboys just a host of other issues
[00:56:33] um but you know just i think what was really notable and what i've learned about him and
[00:56:39] from his history and working with his family is just how inclusive and visionary he really was
[00:56:46] he envisioned miami as this modern metropolitan city that would be the great way to the americas
[00:56:52] and envisioned ways to bring black brown and white communities together
[00:56:57] um so when he passed away in 19 in 2019 the family was approached by fiu to create this institute
[00:57:05] in his in his honor and his legacy um the park in downtown miami that's also where the
[00:57:12] frost museum and the pam art res art museum was recently renamed also in his honor the marise
[00:57:16] fray park in downtown but this institute really what our mission is is to promote civic
[00:57:22] leadership and engagement community infrastructure he was a big proponent of public transportation
[00:57:28] affordable housing economic development really you know lured the international banks to miami
[00:57:35] that really insulated it during the 80s and the economic recession but the other thing is
[00:57:40] social justice uh he was the first to appoint a black city attorney a black chief of staff
[00:57:48] as you know working with him but i think what was all really significant learning about him was
[00:57:54] that he worked to desegregate his own police and fire departments
[00:57:58] in the 80s so that's kind of our mission is through those civic leadership community
[00:58:03] infrastructure and social justice and then doing that through academic programs we have
[00:58:07] certificates microprudentials badges fellowships internships which i can go on all day about
[00:58:14] um but also we just have a wealth of archives um and documents photos from that time period
[00:58:22] we've been doing interviews with past and present leaders and then really just working
[00:58:28] with community partners to promote civic leadership you know not only in south
[00:58:31] florida but you know across the country and globally so how did a immigrant from paraguay
[00:58:40] become the director of the foray institute and how did that journey shape your work in civic
[00:58:46] leadership i found this question to be interesting because i was born in austin sial paraguay
[00:58:52] um but only as a citizen u.s citizen born abroad because my dad was serving in the peace
[00:58:57] corps at the time uh my dad's from connecticut old american my grandmother's maiden name is
[00:59:05] mild is standish as in mild standish so they go back you know generations and then my mom's from
[00:59:11] brazil so uh afro-brazilian was working in paraguay my parents met i have an older sister
[00:59:17] who was also born in brazil but then we immigrated to the united states when i was
[00:59:20] six months old um first connecticut colorado ended up in california um spent most of my
[00:59:28] childhood growing up first in southern california and then northern california
[00:59:32] and then after high school graduation after i got my associate's degree from a community college in
[00:59:38] california i decided to move out here to miami where my mom was living at the time all my
[00:59:43] parents were divorced and coming here to miami was interesting i ended up at fiu kind of
[00:59:49] accidentally um after i came back and got my phd in public affairs i started as a faculty
[00:59:56] member at fiu digital instructor so i teach almost fully online classes at fiu for the past
[01:00:03] 12 13 years um so when the institute came about they were looking for a faculty member
[01:00:10] who would run uh the institute and i think would really kind of i guess uh may my former dean
[01:00:17] john stack may he rest in peace um i think he recognized that a lot of my extracurricular
[01:00:22] activities were focused on civic leadership and engagement so it was something that i
[01:00:27] was already doing on my own time now i could align it with the institute so that's my short
[01:00:32] feel how i got here so you were a hell raiser what what dr the dean was saying and he said
[01:00:38] yeah we can put her in that spot well i think in the sense that i like i said i got very
[01:00:44] fortunate that my extracurricular activities aligned with the mission of the institute um
[01:00:51] i always say i'm very fortunate to do what i love and love what i do and sometimes like
[01:00:57] i said i have good days i have bad days but overall i just feel very fortunate to do this
[01:01:01] work so why is civic engagement important especially to people of color in this nation
[01:01:10] why what what in other words what drives you to do what you do and why is it important
[01:01:18] for people to be involved oh and like i said i definitely that could take more than a person
[01:01:28] i'm not going to go on my soapbox and go into a full lecture but um people just need
[01:01:32] to realize their power and especially in a sense that if it wasn't power they wouldn't
[01:01:36] try to keep you from exercising it um i think the fact that you know through the civil
[01:01:42] rights movement we had the opportunity um to go up to atlanta to interview and
[01:01:48] ambassador andrew young um as part of our video series and when you realize how hard
[01:01:53] these rights were fought to to take them for granted um and what was interesting was when i
[01:01:59] first started this institute some of the first students to get involved were international
[01:02:04] students uh coincidentally students from venezuela who couldn't even vote in this country
[01:02:08] but were very active and wanting to get the word out do voter education voter registration
[01:02:14] um and so i've always said that you know people are going to give in different ways whether it's
[01:02:18] time it's money it's effort but people shouldn't downplay their contributions and the
[01:02:23] difference that they can make um finding the ways that you can help move the needle
[01:02:28] um like i said in little or big ways but to the extent that you can is i think kind of
[01:02:34] the message that i've been put in i'm really proud to have seen students um and colleagues
[01:02:40] go on to run for office to um start non-profits to just find different and creative ways to give
[01:02:47] back and and to find how they can try and make you know i'm very sappy in that sense
[01:02:51] about a better place yeah i i you know you run into that even in the times that we're in
[01:03:00] we still see a lot of people young old you know that say well this don't make a difference
[01:03:09] and i you know i try to make it very simple one when i used to go into schools and talk to students
[01:03:16] uh i would tell them when i was born malcolm x and margaret the king were still alive now
[01:03:22] that gets their attention because they like going oh we didn't realize he was that old
[01:03:26] of course malcolm x died like 20 days after i was born but he was alive when i was born
[01:03:30] so you know i try to put it in context it's like you know and i've been very fortunate
[01:03:37] i was around people like andrew young and jesse jackson senior and james orange and james you
[01:03:43] know i i even though they were older then you know as far as when they became famous as
[01:03:51] though they were they were more like legacies and leaders at that point um you know just
[01:03:58] being around them and and them still taking the time to talk to somebody like me and others
[01:04:07] you know gave me the encouragement to keep pushing on and i and i assume uh that's kind of
[01:04:13] the same mission with with this institute to to make sure that these these students are
[01:04:19] connected with people like that and uh that are still around and even the leaders of today
[01:04:26] uh and so that leads me to a question i'm gonna jump to it because it's kind of in my
[01:04:34] train of thought speaking about leaders of the day even though maxwell the congressman
[01:04:41] maxwell frost is not the congressman in the miami area how has his election to congress
[01:04:48] impacted the students do they do they relate to that do you do you you know he's been
[01:04:55] there now two years but what was what did his election kind of stir up something that
[01:05:02] you've noticed on campus you know in the sense that i wish he was in our own backyard because
[01:05:08] i think it would be easier um to kind of visualize and to see that kind of firsthand
[01:05:13] um i do think they're excited that they're starting to see more representation um i can
[01:05:18] think of a former student afi student body president that's now a florida state senator
[01:05:23] so they've seen you know their colleagues go on onto office um and i do think that they're
[01:05:29] seeing that you know the fact that it is possible through aoc through at maxwell frost
[01:05:33] that younger generations can get elected into office and kind of hold their own um and that
[01:05:39] it's not as much of a barrier that you know there is a grassroots approach as opposed to the
[01:05:44] big um you know packing up funding up models to get yourself into office and we're seeing at
[01:05:51] the local level the state level and federal level um it is nice to see it in that high
[01:05:55] profile model um we'd love to have him come and speak you know someday um but yeah i think it is
[01:06:02] starting to get in sense but i think in one sense it can only be at the federal level we
[01:06:07] really just have to also start getting people to engage at their state and local level
[01:06:10] yeah it's it's very important um you know it's like those those stop signs don't magically
[01:06:19] right those these streets don't magically get paved and people don't understand that
[01:06:26] well i say people certain people don't understand that they've got to focus in
[01:06:32] because you know everybody goes and votes for the president right um that's usually your highest
[01:06:40] turnout but it's like the mayor and your city council city commission county commissioners
[01:06:47] uh school board all those folks impact you on a day-to-day basis and and we need our people
[01:06:57] to be more engaged in that so it's encouraging to hear that
[01:07:03] uh some of the students have already ventured off into running for local offices and uh that
[01:07:10] they're engaged in some of those campaigns so that that's really really encouraging um
[01:07:15] um you're a professor so i'm gonna need you to give give a grade on something um how would
[01:07:24] you grade america's civic engagement are we passing uh do we need a remedial class what
[01:07:30] are we doing how are we doing if it was a group project i'd say we have a c
[01:07:37] there are some that are trying really hard um and then there are some that are just dragging
[01:07:42] it down
[01:07:45] but again we're all in this together so um as much as i'd like to say that it the results do
[01:07:51] vary but i do want to recognize that it's a collective of individual you know parties like
[01:07:59] i said i i don't want to believe that there are those who are more encouraged and more
[01:08:04] motivated than ever um to make a difference but again they're also working against those who are
[01:08:11] perhaps actively trying to just have a touch yeah you know i thought you were going to give
[01:08:17] a harsher grade i probably should have had you as a professor back in the day um i am an
[01:08:22] internal optimist so i think that they can turn it around yeah well that's good that's good
[01:08:27] you know because um i just you know my issue with our civic engagement is
[01:08:36] is goes back to the argument that that uh sometimes i say his name sometimes i don't
[01:08:44] but i say this old slave holder once said uh the best way to protect democracy is to have
[01:08:53] educated folks and i i don't know if it's the fault of public schools i don't know if it's
[01:09:02] the fault of private schools i don't know if it's the fault of the individuals but it seems like
[01:09:09] our level of political efficacy is very very low uh we basically believe anything that
[01:09:18] flies through uh whether it's through our telephone or on tv or whatever um
[01:09:25] how do we how do we combat that how do we get more people because you you're part of a special
[01:09:35] thing like students have to like apply to get into your institute on campus right so um how
[01:09:44] do we incorporate a level i mean you know they don't have to be political junkies like us but
[01:09:51] you know i'm saying i think i think if you had a much better educated public that we would have
[01:10:00] a better caliber of public servants that's that's my theory yeah no i i agree with
[01:10:07] and i think that's the biggest service that we can do um you know teaching public
[01:10:12] administration the one thing that i hope public administrators learn besides the planning the
[01:10:18] organizing the staffing coordinating all that is just how to be ethical good people that you know
[01:10:24] do no harm in their community um you know and i think that unfortunately with everything
[01:10:30] that the internet and everything has come there's obviously been there's a lot of
[01:10:34] misinformation uh with the throw out of the fairness doctrine of course there's a lot of
[01:10:40] bias and people feed into their own media bias by self-selecting you know what information
[01:10:47] they're going to consume um so i think that's part of it is fact checking being um knowing
[01:10:53] where to find the exceedingly rare unbiased information that is out there um i remember
[01:11:01] back in the days you know of course it was checking things on snopes fact checking and
[01:11:06] you know being able to dispel but you know when you have lies just so easily recycled
[01:11:11] and repeated and um at the highest level from our elected officials from our media fundings
[01:11:18] then again it's hard to know what to believe i think one thing that we've been really trying
[01:11:23] to focus on through the institute is of course just community education and information um
[01:11:29] we did a webinar in the spring with supervisors of elections to talk about you know what
[01:11:36] they're really kind of dealing with dealing leading up to the election but wanting to do things
[01:11:42] like we'll have a bagels and ballots which will be decoding the ballot and going through the
[01:11:46] different amendments and things on there and i think that we just need to be able to because
[01:11:52] at this point while education is still considered to be um a trustworthy and unbiased
[01:12:03] resource i think we have to kind of build on that because as much as i would like to rely
[01:12:07] on the media to kind of get that straight i think that as educators we have to go in and
[01:12:12] try and fact check and prevent provide you know unbiased non-partisan non-political
[01:12:18] you know correct information as much as possible yeah yeah education is the key
[01:12:24] um if you haven't if you didn't pick up the slave holder i'm talking about was
[01:12:29] thomas jefferson i don't have anything personal against thomas jefferson other than
[01:12:33] you know he was he was a slave holder but he he wrote one of the most incredible documents ever
[01:12:39] and i think if it wasn't for the declaration and you know his his philosophy about stuff
[01:12:49] i don't you know i don't know where our country would be uh which is kind of one
[01:12:55] of the weird dichotomies right about about our country speaking of dichotomies it's so funny
[01:13:01] because as a public administrator we always teach about you know one of the seminal
[01:13:07] documents on public administration came from you know former president woodrow woulson so having
[01:13:13] to kind of reconcile at our field kind of ties back to this you know initial article but
[01:13:19] at the same time the russus rates and the damage that was done during his his presidency
[01:13:25] you know so it's part of these conversations and wanting to educate students and in my point
[01:13:31] i've gotten to the point where um because of the different uh restrictions that have been
[01:13:36] put on higher education getting to a point where i think with a lot of educators we feel
[01:13:42] less inclined to want to share our own personal views and biases and more just
[01:13:46] presenting information and allowing students to draw their own conclusions well that's a
[01:13:50] that's a perfect tie-in for my next question um you know i
[01:13:58] there was this guy that worked with the a philip randolph institute and uh he he said in
[01:14:04] america if we didn't participate in anything that discriminated against us we'd never
[01:14:08] participate in anything so we we've always had to deal with the dichotomy stuff but
[01:14:16] you know florida is a very interesting place right now politically absolutely so what is your
[01:14:24] challenge as an educator to keep students engaged you say you're in a you know an optimist
[01:14:35] how do you how do you navigate through all of the stuff because there's good stuff happening
[01:14:41] in florida politically too but how do you how do you navigate all this stuff and and and um
[01:14:50] and stay motivated and use it as a teachable moment okay now that's a good question now so
[01:15:00] i teach two classes most most frequently and in the fall i'll be teaching them an undergraduate
[01:15:05] policy class and a graduate level policy class uh you know so i have the students do things like
[01:15:11] write policy memos uh do infographics to presentations as if they're presenting in
[01:15:16] front of a city council or city commission two to three minute limits um but i i think in those
[01:15:21] exercises i allow them to find a topic that they're passionate about and a lot of times i
[01:15:28] ask them to tie it to the united nations sustainable development goals so whether it has
[01:15:32] to do with life on land poverty gender issues um and i think just through those exercises
[01:15:39] getting people to realize the power that they have how a lot of these policy issues start
[01:15:45] with grassroots levels it's a small group of individuals it's um and how these things
[01:15:51] catch work and what's the process of getting these things through and improving them and
[01:15:55] reforming them um but it all starts with little nuggets of ideas um and it starts with the
[01:16:03] movement and how those movements get bigger and i think just looking at different examples
[01:16:07] students start to see how they can you know influence policy sometimes we're good or bad
[01:16:13] in their communities but just recognizing the power that they hold you know collectively yeah
[01:16:17] yeah so to kind of tie that in florida international has not been on the news like
[01:16:26] columbia or ucla dealing with um uh the protests that have been going on especially
[01:16:33] dealing with the israeli hama's conflict but i assume that students are engaged so
[01:16:40] so staying with the teachable moment how how have you as an educator and your colleagues
[01:16:51] tried to guide the students in a way to teach them how they express themselves
[01:16:57] and and to understand that expressing themselves is okay without being racist without being
[01:17:04] hateful you know and we did have a protest on campus and i had a conversation with uh the
[01:17:11] the campus um place of chief um you know in the sense that they want to protect the right
[01:17:16] to protest and to you know to try as long as everybody's kind of safe i think would really
[01:17:20] kind of set our campus apart from a lot of other students and i've always said that is
[01:17:25] that a lot of our students just don't have the privilege in the sense that they're working
[01:17:29] they're taking care of families even like within my own program that i teach even though it's an
[01:17:35] undergraduate program the age skews higher because those students are more likely to be working
[01:17:40] adults taking care of parents taking care of children um in the sense they don't have that
[01:17:45] luxury to kind of stop everything that they're doing they may do it for a couple of hours one
[01:17:50] day that's kind of on there but it's not going to be a recurring ongoing thing not to
[01:17:54] say that they're not writing letters to the editor they're not you know reaching out to
[01:17:59] their administrators and they're not finding other ways they're writing um memorandums to
[01:18:03] faculty assembly so they're finding different ways to be vocal and to be active along those
[01:18:09] lines i'm working with for example two students right now who are coming in as free fellows
[01:18:14] they felt a need after all of the state legislation to establish a pride student
[01:18:19] union at fi you know so that students you know lgbt students could have an organization
[01:18:25] you know that was advocating for their issues and along out of that also came a disabled
[01:18:30] student union um so i think they're realizing their power and being able to organize and to
[01:18:36] push um for change and for resources through the university through the state by partnering
[01:18:43] with community organizations um and just finding out that there's other ways for them to organize
[01:18:48] and to move um their cause forward that's that's cool um you know i was in student
[01:18:55] government i was student body president so you know we were we didn't have a separate
[01:19:03] institute it was like you know a lot of us were political science pre-law majors that
[01:19:09] were involved in student government uh although we had you know you know because it was a
[01:19:15] college you had a biology major here a p major there music major whatever but
[01:19:22] you know we didn't have something that was at that time geared toward advancing we
[01:19:29] jackson state has that now but we didn't have it then and so um i think that's a very very
[01:19:35] valuable asset uh that that you have there so um this is your chance you brought that up
[01:19:44] um because the other thing that we're doing with the institute and with my department as
[01:19:48] you mentioned they the students who are usually in student government and others on
[01:19:52] the political science the public administrator these are the students that intrinsically have
[01:19:56] this motivation to want to you know make their communities better uh we're currently
[01:20:02] launching this program in the fall through the paul volcker alliance um which is the next gen
[01:20:07] public service course which is to motivate students from across all majors to consider
[01:20:12] public service careers so your criminal justice majors your english majors your biology your
[01:20:18] psychology helping them to recognize their public service whether it's local state
[01:20:23] federal government there you know our public service pathways for them to be able to give
[01:20:28] back in their communities and to make a career out of it as well see so let's keep on with
[01:20:35] the plug how can cal can students uh get involved with with the institute uh you know if they're
[01:20:47] saying hey well i want to go to florida international and uh that institute sounds
[01:20:52] pretty good or our parents like yeah my child might be good at that how can people get in
[01:20:57] touch with you and the institute and so on so interestingly enough um through our institute we
[01:21:03] actually have um a certificate an undergraduate certificate and a graduate certificate um in
[01:21:09] civic leadership engagement so those are open to both degree and non-degree seeking students
[01:21:14] so someone could be a non-degree seeking student at fiu take the certificate and then
[01:21:18] decide that they'd like to do a whole degree you know and have those credits apply towards
[01:21:23] a full degree if students already at fiu regarded us as their major they can also take the
[01:21:30] certificate or we have a free micro credential which is about 12 hours it kind of gives an
[01:21:35] overview of government 101 the difference between local state federal government contacting your
[01:21:39] representative and then again tying voting to the united nations sustainable development goals
[01:21:46] students also have opportunities to get involved through fellowships these are service
[01:21:50] learning projects for students um basically qualify for stipends travel support they work
[01:21:56] on a service learning project either through communications community outreach or other projects
[01:22:02] and then scholarships one of my proudest accomplishments since i've been at the helm
[01:22:08] is that we've raised over a million dollars for student scholarships including a very generous
[01:22:13] gift from not only the anthony abraham foundation but the miguel fernandez family
[01:22:17] foundation as well so wanting to prioritize you know assistance for our students to be able to do
[01:22:24] unpaid internships community service projects volunteers without you know financial
[01:22:30] hardship being a you know a barrier that's cool and if people wanted to get in touch with
[01:22:36] you directly how does how does that work uh you know an easy way would be go to our link tree
[01:22:44] fi you for a or to our website for a f-e-r-r-e.fi you.edu um on there they can connect with us on
[01:22:53] social media you can make an appointment with me it's very via my calinley appointment to meet
[01:22:58] and talk but just always happy to connect and engage with anyone who's interested in
[01:23:03] working towards this common goal of you know increasing civic engagement and leadership in
[01:23:08] our communities and and the most important thing you said during the interview was do no harm
[01:23:14] whenever somebody that i know uh gets elected to something the very first thing i'd send them
[01:23:22] other than congratulations is remember do no harm um i think that is vitally important uh in this
[01:23:32] day and age in in in our political discussions to get leaders that have that mindset um so i'm
[01:23:40] honored uh dr caraballo to to have you on the podcast and to know that you are out there
[01:23:49] doing that kind of work and i i greatly appreciate what you're doing thank you so
[01:23:54] much and like i said i appreciate you in the sense of you know in the same vein um and thank
[01:23:58] you again just for this opportunity to highlight the work that we're doing and encourage others to
[01:24:03] just to join us and feel free to reach out all right guys and we're gonna catch y'all on the
[01:24:07] other side all right and we are back so i want to thank sister clark and dr caraballo
[01:24:31] um for coming on the podcast and uh i hope that y'all got some encouragement out of that
[01:24:42] um you know one that us black folks in the united states are not alone
[01:24:52] uh in our struggles to seek justice and equality and equity um and uh
[01:25:03] politics is important right both of those sisters stress that politics is important
[01:25:12] what we do is important but the other thing that's important is the overall concept of
[01:25:21] this american institution of government and you know people are trying to parse and say
[01:25:30] it's a democracy it's a constitution republic it's a you know whatever democratic republic
[01:25:40] this is the united states of america and i just really would hope that
[01:25:55] maybe not in my lifetime but at some point in time that we get to what's really important
[01:26:05] which is how we're going to solve our problems instead of prostrating ourselves
[01:26:12] to a particular party or a particular candidate and willing to throw the baby out with the
[01:26:18] bathwater in in in how we view politics you know we use the analogy those of us that have
[01:26:29] been in game involved in politics is you know it's a game it's a sport all that kind of
[01:26:35] stuff but the difference between an actual athletic event and politics is that
[01:26:43] politics is really supposed to be the arena for ideas not just skill or spectacular moments
[01:26:54] it's about the nitty-gritty about hashing out ideas to make society better
[01:26:59] and we have to regulate ourselves the bible even for those who believe the bible even talks about
[01:27:08] relegating ourselves governing ourselves it's ordained by god even and that we should pray
[01:27:18] we should pray and respect our leaders so you know i'm old enough to remember
[01:27:32] oj simpson and how the country and it's been what 30 years
[01:27:46] how the country was feeling were just about 30 years how the country was feeling at that point
[01:27:52] over the decision and you know over time we we understand the dynamics and all this stuff better
[01:28:02] if we're students of history and we we remove ourselves from that immediate moment and
[01:28:08] kind of look at the big picture what was happening
[01:28:13] and i guess we're going to have to do the same thing with president trump i think we're
[01:28:18] going to have to over time remove ourselves from the emotion of the moment to see what
[01:28:23] really the big picture was but i do have a fundamental problem with elected officials
[01:28:36] trashing the criminal justice system to the extent that
[01:28:48] they're disparaging citizens all my life i've been trying to get young people to register
[01:28:55] to vote to do to do two things one to actually vote and pay attention to the candidates running
[01:29:02] for office and picking the one that's going to be the most important for you
[01:29:08] or the one that you think really can do the job right but then the other thing i was
[01:29:13] encouraging young people to do was to register to vote so they could be on juries right
[01:29:21] and you know i would ask the question how many of y'all had somebody in your family go through
[01:29:28] the criminal justice system and a lot of the kids in my district raised their hands
[01:29:33] right and you know what i explained to them was that they would have a better shot if more
[01:29:43] of us were in the jury pools not necessarily saying that if black folks aren't juries that
[01:29:47] black folks are going to get acquitted but it's a fair shot and in mississippi
[01:29:55] the historical context is very important because there's a lot of people that should have went
[01:29:59] to jail in mississippi back in the days that didn't go because it wasn't an inclusive process
[01:30:05] because it wasn't an inclusive process in the jury system right
[01:30:12] donald trump can't say that there literally was somebody on the jury that
[01:30:16] the only news they get is from him true social that's the only new source they have
[01:30:25] but that person felt that donald trump was guilty along with 11 the 11 other jurors
[01:30:35] so when you have these politicians saying oh it's a travesty it's a sham and all that stuff it's
[01:30:40] like do like trump's attorney did trump's attorney was not pleased that his client had
[01:30:51] to go through a trial but he didn't disparage the jury he commended them for being attentive
[01:30:59] he commended them for making a decision based on the information they were given
[01:31:03] even though he didn't agree with it and he really had nothing bad to say about the jurors
[01:31:13] it was you know now whether he felt the judge gave him a fair shake or
[01:31:21] the fact that his client got charged with anything yeah he was upset about that
[01:31:26] but he respected the process and in this march to being sycophants a lot of these elected
[01:31:38] officials are not saying that and you know there are some people that are happy there are some
[01:31:50] people that are sad we get that people were happy and sad when oj was presumed innocent
[01:31:58] was found innocent in the court law but you know it didn't get to the point where folks were
[01:32:08] hanging their u.s flags upside down and threatening violence and all that kind of stuff
[01:32:20] and it definitely wasn't elected officials saying crazy things if anything they were trying to be
[01:32:29] respectful of the process and trying to tell people hey guys that happens
[01:32:37] keep it moving you know
[01:32:44] that's why you have attorneys for defense and the prosecution so
[01:32:51] and and the criminal justice bar is the highest bar beyond a reasonable doubt so
[01:33:01] if those 12 people didn't have any doubt then the state proved their case there was any doubt
[01:33:12] then it was either going to be a hung jury or acquittal that's how it goes and you know
[01:33:25] the question i asked the the black folks that are upset about the trump verdict it's like
[01:33:34] would you have been upset if derek chauvin had been found innocent were you upset that nobody
[01:33:44] from involved with freddy gray's death in baltimore went to jail except the attorney
[01:33:53] that tried to put the officers in jail right and she went to jail for something else
[01:33:59] spending her own money there's obviously some nuance to that but that's you know sister
[01:34:06] moseby was the prosecutor trying to put people in jail and those officers were acquitted
[01:34:18] but i didn't see y'all getting upset about that right i didn't see you coming to her
[01:34:24] defense as a matter of fact you've been trying to throw her under the bus since she's had
[01:34:29] her own legal challenges so i understand of my color but not my kind i get it but you know
[01:34:46] if i'm donald trump yeah i'm upset if i'm not donald trump hey it's time to make some
[01:34:56] decisions we're gonna still ride with this dude or we're gonna do something else
[01:35:01] because he went through the process but you don't trash the process because if you trash the process
[01:35:09] for your guy guess what's not going to be there when you're in trouble or somebody you care about
[01:35:16] is in trouble that process is not going to be there you ain't got to be happy with the
[01:35:24] verdict but you don't trash the process right no matter how flawed the individuals were who
[01:35:31] created the process the process is what it is what we have to make sure is that people that
[01:35:41] are in power don't abuse the power and for those saying well joe biden joe biden had none
[01:35:49] to do with it as a matter of fact he really didn't want to say anything because the
[01:35:53] verdict happened on the anniversary of his son's death and he usually just kind of checks out
[01:36:01] so he really didn't want to say anything at all
[01:36:07] let alone and you know and it's and it's amazing to me that people say well
[01:36:14] he's tipping the scale if i'm just going to say it for me and i might have said this before
[01:36:22] if i'm going to tip the scale i'm not going to make it close
[01:36:30] if i'm going to cheat i'm cheating all the way i'm not going to cheat just to make it look good
[01:36:38] no i'm going to cheat to win if i'm trying to win an election i'm gonna win every precinct
[01:36:47] i'm not gonna give you any if i'm cheating if i'm trying to you know get a verdict and stuff
[01:37:01] then i do like the folks did down in mississippi back in the day and just have
[01:37:05] all of my people in the room you wouldn't have no choice but my people that didn't happen
[01:37:17] joe biden won the election fair and square and he had nothing to do with donald trump being
[01:37:24] found guilty if there's anybody to blame for donald trump losing an election and donald
[01:37:30] trump being found guilty it's donald trump period end of story and if you are too
[01:37:42] biased to see that then you are too biased to lead human beings let us down
[01:37:58] we are not perfect i've let people down people have let me down
[01:38:04] that's part of the human experience mistakes we learn from keep it moving we don't gain anything
[01:38:14] by not having accountability we don't grow we don't learn if we don't have accountability
[01:38:30] we can't improve we can't move forward we can't progress if we don't have accountability
[01:38:38] we don't have accountability and that's really what the criminal justice system is supposed to
[01:38:42] be about and the civil justice system to be honest supposed to be about accountability
[01:38:49] just like we don't want people going around killing folks we don't want folks abusing
[01:38:59] employees or making places unsafe for us to walk that's how that works so you know
[01:39:17] i don't get any joy out of seeing somebody go through drama what i do hope is that
[01:39:37] that person comes out on the other side a better person but if we don't acknowledge
[01:39:52] that that person did something wrong they're not going to get any better and for a political party
[01:40:02] to not do that to their leader that party's not going to be any better just facts while
[01:40:12] everybody was running up and trying to be seen at donald trump's trial you didn't see a
[01:40:21] a democrat at bob bonnet and bob menendez's trial that's going on right now at the same time
[01:40:33] nobody you didn't see any you didn't even see cori booker who's the other senator from new
[01:40:38] jersey showing up that's not how that works the whole idea is to let the system play it
[01:40:52] out and it still hasn't played out he still hasn't been sentenced yet don trump still can appeal
[01:41:02] so it's not over this particular phase of it is but it's not over and if he wants to run
[01:41:14] for president of the united states as a convicted felon so be it eugene debbs did it
[01:41:20] and got over a million some votes he was actually in a jail so it is what it is if you want to vote
[01:41:32] for that guy that's on you if he as a free man i wasn't gonna vote for him and i've been trying
[01:41:40] to encourage people not to vote for him but it's not because or just because i'm a democrat
[01:41:51] it's i just believe in the constitution
[01:41:57] i believe in the declaration of independence i believe in the united states of america
[01:42:03] despite all its flaws despite its dichotomous history
[01:42:11] this is the greatest nation in the world
[01:42:14] and we should strive to have the greatest people serve in leadership of the greatest nation in the
[01:42:25] world so anyway that's just my thoughts y'all um and uh again i want to thank my guests for
[01:42:43] coming on and i just i just want us to get into a mindset of not doing any harm
[01:42:52] doing any harm if if we get leaders
[01:42:59] to understand that statesmanship is about the next generation and that your commitment
[01:43:07] is to do no harm in your job america will continue to be the greatest nation on earth
[01:43:20] until next time