[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of a Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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[00:01:23] Hello and welcome to another moment where Erik Fleming, I am your host Erik Fleming.
[00:01:40] I am really, really humbled today because I have two very distinguished guests coming on that I believe one that you will learn something from.
[00:01:57] And two of the main topics, many topics that are going on in the United States but two of the main topics that's in our political discussion today.
[00:02:14] I have had the honor of interviewing the Council General of Israel for the South Eastern United States and the former political director of the AFL CEO.
[00:02:30] And you will hear their voices after a moment of news with Grace G.
[00:02:45] Thanks Erik. The US launched airstrikes in Iraq and Syria targeting Iran's revolutionary guard and allied militias in retaliation for deadly attacks on US troops resulting in nearly 40 deaths.
[00:02:57] A federal appeals court ruled that Donald Trump does not have immunity from charges relating to his attempts to overturn the 2020 election.
[00:03:05] The US House of Representatives voted against impeaching Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas.
[00:03:12] President Joe Biden won both the South Carolina and Nevada Democratic primaries with significant margins of victory.
[00:03:19] Marianne Williamson, a self-help author and Democratic presidential candidate has dropped out of the race after receiving minimal support.
[00:03:27] Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis, prosecuting Donald Trump for election interference in Georgia, denied in a legal filing that her personal relationship with another lawyer affected her professional conduct.
[00:03:39] A Michigan woman was convicted of manslaughter for her role in her son's fatal mass shooting at Oxford High School.
[00:03:46] The mayor of Dearborn Michigan increased police presence after a Wall Street Journal article he deemed bigoted and Islamophobic led to a spike in online hate speech targeting the city.
[00:03:57] The first national bank of Pennsylvania settled for $13.5 million with the US Department of Justice and North Carolina for charges of redlining in North Carolina markets.
[00:04:08] The US Supreme Court refused to block the US military academy at West Point from considering race in admissions while legal proceedings on the matter continue.
[00:04:17] A US appeals court prevented Florida from enforcing a law banning Chinese citizens from owning property.
[00:04:23] Rapper activist Killer Mike was detained for unspecified reasons by police at the Grammy Awards after winning three major rap music categories.
[00:04:32] Lastly, radio talk show host Joe Madison known by many as the Black Eagle age 74 and actor Carl Weathers known for his role as Apollo Creed in the Rocky films age 76.
[00:04:45] Both passed away. I am Grace G and this has been a moment of news.
[00:05:00] Thank you Grace for that moment of news and now my first guest.
[00:05:06] Her name is a not Sultan the Don. A not so time to don assumed her role as Council general Israel to the southeast of the United States in 2019.
[00:05:20] Sultan the Don joined the Israeli diplomatic corps in 2004 and has held various positions at the embassies of Israel in Cameroon, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia as well as positions in the Euro Asia and the Asia Pacific divisions at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Jerusalem.
[00:05:41] She earned a BA in psychology and education from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a master's degree in criminology with high honors at the same institution.
[00:05:51] In 2020, Sultan the Don was honored by Morehouse College with induction into the Martin Luther King Jr. International College of Ministers in LAT.
[00:06:04] In her current role in Atlanta, the Council general is responsible for advancing the bilateral relations between Israel and seven southeast of the States.
[00:06:15] Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee.
[00:06:23] Sultan the Don is married to Yehran and they are proud parents of three girls. Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, the Council general of Israel to the southeast of the United States, Miss a not Sultan the Don.
[00:06:54] All right, ladies and gentlemen, I have the Council general of Israel for the southeast in the United States, a not Sultan the Don. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
[00:07:13] Good and glad to be with you.
[00:07:16] Well, I am honored to have you on. I think Shalom is the proper greeting. Is that correct?
[00:07:21] Absolutely. Shalom means peace in Hebrew and it also is used for a greeting of hello or goodbye.
[00:07:30] Yes ma'am. So first of all, let me thank you for coming on. I know that this has been a trying time for your nation, but I think it's important that somebody that represents the state of Israel
[00:07:44] to the United States, I think is important for their voice to be heard. And it's really an honor to have you come on and address my audience and give them your perspective about what's going on.
[00:08:06] So again, thank you for that. At the beginning of an interview, I usually do a quote and that quote could be related to what's going, we know, the topic of a conversation something that you might have said, something that's either you have written or whatever.
[00:08:24] So your quote is there will be no security in our world, no release from agonizing tension, no genuine progress, no enduring peace until in Shelley's fine words, reasons, voice, loud as the voice of nature shall have weight the nations.
[00:08:46] What is your thought about that quote?
[00:08:51] Thank you for having me. And I think that this quote and the voice of reason is really what we need at this point in time, we are at day 126 since October 7th, since the Hamas terror organization launched its heinous terror attack against Israel, committing the largest massacre of Jews in a single day.
[00:09:20] Since the Holocaust, their declared goal is the destruction of the state of Israel and of the Jewish people. But more broadly than that, they stand against everything that we stand for in the free world while we sanctify life and cherish the values of life and freedom.
[00:09:49] They glorify death, they promote destruction and they are driven by a radical Islamist ideology sponsored guided funded by the Iranian regime.
[00:10:07] And while Israel is fighting this fight, it is important to understand that we are on the front line, but it is not just Israel's fight.
[00:10:18] We need to hear much more in a much clear voice from the international community that stands for reason because that is what we should all be standing for and that is why Israel should not stand alone in its fight against this murderous terror organization.
[00:10:43] So let me ask you something and I don't know if any other interviews is anybody asking this but I just recently had the privilege of talking to a police officer that served the Capitol Police on January 6th.
[00:11:03] And we talked about what that day was like for him.
[00:11:08] What was October 7th, 2023 like for you personally? How did that day start and just kind of talk about your emotions and if there is any kind of personal connection with any of the victims and all that, I hope that nobody in your family
[00:11:32] was directly affected but just kind of talk about you personally what that day was like.
[00:11:39] October 7th has shaken every Israeli.
[00:11:50] It is shake our entire nation to our core.
[00:11:57] Being here in the United States with a time difference, this attack which started at 6.30 am in Israel caught us here in the United States when it was eight night time, close to midnight.
[00:12:16] And we watched from afar, horrified at what we were seeing at the images that we were seeing coming out of Israel.
[00:12:31] And I think most shockingly the images that were being spread on social media, the footage that the perpetrators that the Hamas terrorists were uploading while they were committing these atrocities, while they were slaughtering our people, while they were raping, while they were torturing in real time.
[00:12:59] They uploaded these shocking videos of their crimes against humanity with joy.
[00:13:11] We did so from their social media platforms, they used sometimes the victims own phones and social media platforms.
[00:13:25] The atrocities of that day have touched every Israeli, but four months out from that horrific massacre, all of our hearts are still bleeding because we know that we have 136 of our brothers and sisters still being held hostage in captivity in Gaza.
[00:13:54] Including what is now a one year old baby, taken hostage when he was nine months old. We have women who not only did we see being paraded on the streets of Gaza with bloody pants, being sexually abused, but we know from accounts from the from the hostages that have been released.
[00:14:20] We know that they are enduring rape and torture on a regular basis in there. That is why we are counting the days, 126 days, we know that they are counting the minutes, the hours, and every day that goes by.
[00:14:40] We need not just for every Israeli, but for everyone that is part of humanity to join the call and demand the immediate and unconditional release of all of these hostages.
[00:14:59] That is what has been following and a part of every Israeli since October 7th. It is something that we wake up with every day and we go to sleep with every day.
[00:15:15] Yes ma'am. So kind of give us without revealing any military intelligence assistance information, what is the update on the conflict now? Where is the IDF as far as how they are viewing their response to the attack and then there is going to be some questions based kind of based off your answer.
[00:15:45] But I just want you to kind of give it all over all assessment what you can about the IDF's efforts to respond.
[00:15:53] Right. And so the goals of the IDF are aside from bringing back all of our hostages are to ensure that Hamas is demilitarized, is no longer in control of the Gaza Strip and no longer has the ability to be recognized.
[00:16:14] No longer has the military capabilities that it had that enabled it to launch the attack of October 7th.
[00:16:23] And we need to ensure that they never be able to carry out such an attack again because their leaders proudly state loud and clear that they will commit October 7th again and again and again.
[00:16:37] The IDF is acting in order to ensure that they are never able to that we never see such a tear threat emanating from the Gaza Strip again.
[00:16:46] Operations have moved the IDF has has operated in the northern Gaza Strip. It is now operating more in the southern Gaza Strip in order to target Hamas terrorists in unbelievably demanding.
[00:17:06] Conditions because they have intentionally embedded themselves within the civilian population within civilian infrastructure schools hospitals other civilian facilities intentionally using their own population as human shields intentionally placing them in harm's way and underground.
[00:17:32] They have invested in constructing terror tunnels that extend up to 400 miles.
[00:17:42] All of the funds millions upon millions of dollars that have gone into the Gaza Strip meant for aid to the Palestinian people may to be dedicated towards helping them build their infrastructure and their future.
[00:18:01] All of that has gone into investing into the terror tunnels building the terror channels equipment weapons.
[00:18:11] That is what they have been dedicated to and the IDF has now the task of rooting out these terrorists that are embedding themselves within the civilian population and of conducting the warfare over the ground but also underground in incredibly challenging conditions.
[00:18:30] And that is what it is busy doing. It has succeeded in targeting much of the infrastructure including their capabilities of launching rockets.
[00:18:44] Much of that has been destroyed but we are not there yet and the IDF will not be able to conclude its mission there until we know that Hamas is no longer in control
[00:18:58] and until we know that they never have such military capabilities again.
[00:19:04] This is Israel's responsibility to our country and our people as is the responsibility of any sovereign nation that faces such a terror threat and attack but the Palestinian people deserve a better future as well.
[00:19:22] And they deserve to be free from a terror regime that is oppressing its own people that is intentionally placing its own people in harm's way.
[00:19:32] And that is why Gaza needs to be freed from Hamas.
[00:19:36] So as we are recording this the previous evening the President of the United States took a question dealing with what was going on in the conflict and he made a statement that he felt that Israel's response has gone over the top.
[00:19:59] How do you respond to a lot of the protests that have been going on in the United States and in other parts of the world have felt that the IDF approach has been heavy handed in dealing with Hamas.
[00:20:23] And so how do you respond to that kind of criticism that people feel that it's been a heavy handed approach in response to the attacks on October 7th?
[00:20:39] I will start by saying that we are incredibly grateful to the United States for the support since October 7th.
[00:20:52] There is strong stand in support of Israel and our right to defend ourselves and then a strong stand against terror.
[00:21:05] Israel's actions, the IDF's operations are conducted in proportion to the threat that we face.
[00:21:16] We are facing a terror organization whose declared goal in their charter, in their actions and in their leader statements is the destruction of the state of Israel and the Jewish people.
[00:21:33] No nation could allow for such a threat to continue existing on its border.
[00:21:43] We cannot allow for such a threat to continue existing on our border and therefore we have to do whatever it takes in order to ensure that our country,
[00:21:54] in our people are safe from those who wish to annihilate us.
[00:21:59] We are acting, as I said, in incredibly complex conditions, not ones that we created, ones that Hamas has intentionally created and we are making every effort in order to minimize harm to uninvolved civilians because any harm to an uninvolved civilian is a tragedy.
[00:22:23] But we cannot allow for terror to receive shelter and be protected because they are intentionally using their people as human shields.
[00:22:34] And we cannot allow for them to continue to exist as long as their goal is our destruction.
[00:22:44] Now I'm not a military expert. You probably have more military experience than me.
[00:22:51] The concern is, do you think that... do you understand why there are people that think that you use an American colloquialism, use the sledgehammer to kill a fly?
[00:23:12] Do you understand why people might think that? I think you explain that you're addressing not just the response to the attack, but any future attacks. That's the position.
[00:23:24] But do you understand why people might think the way that they do about the response?
[00:23:31] I think that there is a lot of hypocrisy in the criticism towards Israel about our response.
[00:23:38] I think that any nation that would have faced such a massacre, such an attack on its people, would be responding forcefully in order to ensure that they never see such an attack again.
[00:23:58] We are doing what any other country would do, while taking probably more measures than any other country ever has taken in order to minimize harm to civilians.
[00:24:13] But we cannot allow for a Hamas leadership to be able to realize that which they declare they will do.
[00:24:23] And in their own words, they will commit October 7th again and again and again. We cannot allow for that to happen.
[00:24:32] And that is why we are responding as we are responding. The October 7th attack was not a fly and their threats to annihilate the state of Israel and the Jewish people are certainly not a fly, and we need to address the threat so that it never be able to be realized again.
[00:24:57] So in response to what has happened, the country of South Africa, the Republican South Africa filed a case against Israel in the international court.
[00:25:09] And part of their argument saying that it violated the 1948 genocide convention was that there was a predication about an apartheid state in Israel dealing with the Palestinians.
[00:25:28] The World Court ordered Israel to prevent acts of genocide against the Palestinians and do more to help civilians, but it stopped short of ordering a ceasefire that the Republican South Africa asked for.
[00:25:43] What is the country's response to what the World Court has adjudicated? And my follow-up is giving the history of South Africa, do you understand why they have this perception that Israel is practicing something that they had to overcome?
[00:26:13] The charge of genocide with South Africa leveled against Israel at the International Court of Justice is false and it is outrageous.
[00:26:23] It constitutes a shameful exploitation of the genocide convention that is not only wholly unfounded in fact and law but is morally repugnant.
[00:26:34] On October 7th, Hamas and other terrorist elements committed unspeakable atrocities against Israel and against our citizens and like every sovereign nation, Israel has an inherent and inalienable right to defend ourselves against the terror onslaught that we still face.
[00:26:56] Israel is committed as it has repeatedly affirmed and demonstrating to acting in full accordance with international law, including international humanitarian law.
[00:27:09] This commitment is unwavering and is independent of any ICJ proceedings.
[00:27:22] There has been also a lot of misinformation and a misleading narrative on the ICJ decision because the court unanimously rejected almost all of South Africa's requests for provisional measures.
[00:27:42] In practice, limited measures indicated to existing legal obligations in which Israel is already committed.
[00:27:51] Despite this, we see a determined effort by some actors to advance a misleading narrative based on deliberate misinterpretation of the decision.
[00:28:06] I would add also because you mentioned the word apartheid.
[00:28:15] apartheid has nothing to do with the state of Israel and anyone who knows anything about Israel, about its diverse society, about our robust democracy, knows that this concept is utterly foreign to the state of Israel.
[00:28:38] We have Jewish citizens and we have non-Jewish citizens, Muslim citizens, Christian citizens.
[00:28:48] We have Israelis who have immigrated to Israel from all corners of the world, reconvening in our ancient homeland.
[00:28:59] My father's family immigrated to Israel from Egypt, my mother's family immigrated to Israel from Iran, my husband's family immigrated to Israel from Morocco, all of those countries which at best tolerated us.
[00:29:16] At worst, persecuted us, hunted us down and slaughtered us.
[00:29:24] Today in the state of Israel you can find Jewish Israelis, Arab Israelis, Muslim Israelis, Christian Israelis, Black Israelis, White Israelis, and everything in between.
[00:29:38] And they are all entitled to the same rights, they're all equal under the law.
[00:29:46] We have Arab participants not only voting but elected to our parliament, we have Arab Knesset members,
[00:29:59] we have Arab Israelis in every walk of life, we have Arab Israeli judges including a Supreme Court justice who is the one that sentenced a former Israeli president to prison.
[00:30:17] I have colleagues in the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Arab Israeli colleagues.
[00:30:25] On October 7th, it is not only Jewish Israelis who were slaughtered, it was also Arab Israelis.
[00:30:33] It was not only Jewish Israeli first responders, it was also Arab Israeli first responders.
[00:30:41] It is not only Jewish Israelis who were held in captivity in Gaza, it is not only Jewish Israelis, it is also Arab Israelis that are taking part in the IDF operation in Gaza.
[00:30:57] We are citizens of the same country, we are Israelis.
[00:31:02] And anyone who is not familiar with what Israel is about, I urge them to learn more before forming an opinion because too often many words are thrown around about Israel without actually being familiar with what Israel is about, with what our history is about.
[00:31:25] And with regards to the Palestinians, with what this conflict is about, with the fact that Palestinians could have had self-determination in a state of their own already in 1947.
[00:31:45] But Palestinian leadership consistently, prior to the establishment of the modern state of Israel in 1948 and after the establishment on numerous occasions and numerous points in history they have refused to sign an agreement granting them a state if it meant that that state would live alongside the Jewish state.
[00:32:12] And I think that it is high time that instead of dragging Israel to court, accusing Israel of committing that which we are defending ourselves against.
[00:32:29] Instead of that, what we should be seeing is the international community demanding more of Palestinian leadership.
[00:32:38] Palestinians deserve better, they deserve a leadership that makes the choice of peace for them, not a leadership that continues to invest in terror, in death, in destruction and continues to tell their people the lie.
[00:32:58] Because they will never have self-determination at the cost of the existence of the state of Israel and that needs to be stated loud and clear.
[00:33:08] And for the international community that supposedly wants to see a better future for the Palestinians, that supposedly supports peace, it is time that the international community held Palestinian leadership accountable so that they do better by their own people.
[00:33:28] So just for the audience clarity, there's a distinction between an Arab-Israeli citizen and a Palestinian.
[00:33:38] Correct?
[00:33:41] In the state of Israel, we have Israeli citizens, be they Arab, be they Jewish, be they whatever they are, Israeli citizens are all equal.
[00:33:52] There are Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip, there are Palestinians living in the West Bank under the Palestinian Authority, they are not Israeli citizens.
[00:34:04] Okay, so they are and could be, they could be a part of a future Palestinian entity.
[00:34:16] But that has not been the choice of their leadership thus far.
[00:34:21] So and real quick, because I wanted in the remaining time try to get to the impact here in the United States.
[00:34:29] But the Prime Minister, Nenyan who has made it clear that he's not in favor of a two-state solution, the United States and other countries have pushed that.
[00:34:45] If my question is, if the current government is not in favor of a two-state solution, do they have a plan to incorporate Palestinians as citizens of Israel?
[00:35:01] We do not wish to incorporate, we do not wish to take over Gaza or the West Bank, Israel fully withdrew from the Gaza Strip in 2005.
[00:35:17] We want to see the Palestinians building a better future for themselves.
[00:35:25] With regards to a two-state solution, that can be the future for the Palestinians and it can be a future for Israel to live securely and safely alongside a Palestinian entity.
[00:35:41] That state however, could not be a state that cannot be a state that has military capabilities.
[00:35:53] Because we have seen what that means for Israel.
[00:35:58] But absolutely, all of the capabilities and all of the independence and authorities to build their future.
[00:36:08] Okay.
[00:36:11] So, here in America, you've been following what's going on here in the United States as far as how the conflict is impacting our politics here.
[00:36:27] President Biden seems to be catching it from both sides.
[00:36:31] We've had people talking about it from anywhere, from Starbucks Cafe to University campuses.
[00:36:41] We've heard these terms being thrown out about anti-Semitism and Zionism and ceasefire.
[00:36:55] I think a lot of people in my audience might understand what those terms mean.
[00:37:05] One of the questions I want to ask you is, is it fair to...
[00:37:11] Well, how should I phrase it?
[00:37:14] If somebody criticizes the state of Israel, does that fall into anti-Semitism?
[00:37:27] Because I think a lot of people are getting caught up in that.
[00:37:31] Even though you're not a member of the organization by virtue of your position and all that, but APAC, which is a big supporter of the state of Israel and lobbies for the state of Israel in Congress.
[00:37:49] And really everywhere else, political bodies in the United States.
[00:37:56] The headline was that they were targeting six particular members of Congress.
[00:38:03] One of them, of course, was censured.
[00:38:06] Congresswoman Tulee from Michigan and so a lot of people kind of get okay, well, yeah, they're not going to support her.
[00:38:16] But some of the other ones that they were talking about, the other five that they were targeting, are talking about spending $6 million on them.
[00:38:25] The initial story said it was people of color.
[00:38:28] Now, one I understand is that they are supporting candidates of color against these particular Congress persons.
[00:38:38] But you know, it's still kind of a concern for me as somebody that used to be an elected official.
[00:38:43] That it seems like a lot of them, the majority of them are just basically asking for a ceasefire.
[00:38:54] And it seems like they're being targeted.
[00:38:57] So kind of address that concern as much as you can because I know you're not officially affiliated with them, but you're monitoring what's going on.
[00:39:07] If you address that and the concern about criticism being labeled anti-Semitism, and even talk about the whole debate about a ceasefire and why that seems to be a lightning rod issue.
[00:39:27] Sure, so there are several several different issues here that I will try to address.
[00:39:33] First and foremost, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism.
[00:39:39] When one is criticizing this or that policy of Israel of the Israeli government, we have plenty of that criticism in Israel as well like any other healthy democracy that values freedom of speech.
[00:39:54] Where it crosses over into anti-Semitism is where we hear the delegitimization of the right of the Jewish people to their own self determination.
[00:40:13] So the calls for the annihilation of the state of Israel, such as we are hearing when we hear calls from the river to the sea Palestine will be free meaning there will be no Israel.
[00:40:26] That is not criticism of Israel. That is not criticism of this or that policy.
[00:40:31] That is criticism of Israel's right to exist.
[00:40:36] This align does need to be drawn.
[00:40:40] And on the matter of anti-Semitism, we are incredibly grateful that just recently the Georgia state legislature passed along which the governor signed into law adopting the Ira definition of anti-Semitism.
[00:41:00] Ira stands for IHRA stands for the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance.
[00:41:05] In adopting the definition of anti-Semitism is a very, very important step because in order to be able to address this very, very concerning problem we are seeing an incredible rise in anti-Semitism globally here in the United States and even here in the state of Georgia.
[00:41:25] In order to effectively address this issue, one needs to understand what constitutes anti-Semitism in order to recognize it.
[00:41:36] So that is on the matter of anti-Semitism with regards to pro-Israel organizations and their support of certain candidates who are opponents of other candidates.
[00:41:54] The United States and Israel have enjoyed 75 years and continue to enjoy robust relations that have always been bipartisan.
[00:42:08] They are shared on common interests, on shared values. That is what they are based on and they are not an issue that has to do with race and where pro-Israel organizations have chosen to support candidates it has been about where they stand on Israel because that is what those organizations are about.
[00:42:35] And where one stands on Israel has nothing to do with their race and that is why in the majority of the races where a person of color is not the one that is being supported, it is actually a person of color who is running against them who is being supported.
[00:42:53] It has not been and it should not be about race.
[00:42:59] Trying to portray it as such is saddening and it is done by those who are trying to sow division and trying to bring in a matter that has no relevance to U.S.-Israel relations.
[00:43:19] They are not and have not been based on matters of race. They have been and they continue to be based on common interests and on shared values.
[00:43:31] Now with regards to calls for a ceasefire, we are hearing many calls for a ceasefire and these unfortunately are based on either ignorance or supportive of a terror organization because there should absolutely be calls for a ceasefire.
[00:43:54] But those calls for a ceasefire should be directed at the terror organization who chose to wage this war.
[00:44:05] There had been a ceasefire in place on October 6th, it was the Hamas terror organizations choice to carry out the heinous attack against Israel against innocent people in Israel.
[00:44:20] In it is the Hamas terror organization that remains committed to the destruction of Israel and they claim that they will commit October 7th again and again and again.
[00:44:30] The calls for a ceasefire should be directed at them if Hamas were to lay down their weapons and surrender today, release the hostages.
[00:44:40] There would be a ceasefire today. That is where the calls should be directed to, not at Israel who is acting to defend itself in order to ensure that we will never face such an attack again just like any other nation.
[00:44:56] Any other sovereign nation would act as Israel is acting because we have the responsibility to defend our country and citizens.
[00:45:06] Well, Madam Counsel General, I value your time. I wish we had more time to kind of flesh out some more stuff. I think that what you have provided the audience is a clearer picture and so I greatly appreciate that.
[00:45:24] Normally at the end of interviews I ask people to plug like their books or their websites and all that. In your case, because you are a diplomat what I would ask you to do is how can people contact you to offer support?
[00:45:44] Is there a particular organization that is helping citizens of Israel to get through these 126 days as you have mentioned of grief and loss?
[00:46:03] You can use this time to kind of highlight that organization and how people can show their support.
[00:46:11] Thank you for that. I think that at a time where so many have a strong opinion about what is going on in Israel and with regards to Israel's war against Hamas, I think that it is imperative that we all educate ourselves and learn more about what is going on.
[00:46:34] And so I would absolutely invite people to follow the consulate on social media, Israel and Atlanta to reach out to our consulate and subscribe to our daily newsletter which provides updates about what is going on because I think that while it is important to form an opinion.
[00:47:02] Again, it is always important to base that opinion on facts and on acknowledging and learning history and the reality.
[00:47:14] And so absolutely I would invite anyone who wants to be involved, to follow us on social media, to reach out. You can send us an email info at Atlanta. Israel dot GOV dot I L reach out to us and if you would like to engage have a conversation.
[00:47:38] Initiate an event where we engage with a larger group of people about what is going on. We are always open to that.
[00:47:48] Well Madam Counsel General, not so tonne the dawn. I greatly appreciate your time. I am honored that you grace us with your presence on the podcast and I wish you peace.
[00:48:07] And in this time I hope that in our lifetime we can see that. So again thank you.
[00:48:16] We share the hope and thank you, thank you for having me.
[00:48:20] Alright guys, we are going to catch you all on the other side.
[00:48:37] Alright, and we are back. And so now my final guest, his name is Mike Podhoser.
[00:48:56] Mike Podhoser is a political strategist who served as political director of the AFL CIO and as a senior advisor to his former president, Richard Trumpka.
[00:49:09] He was described by Time Magazine as quote unquote the architect of a shadow campaign that saved the 2020 election.
[00:49:20] Ladies and gentlemen, this is somebody that I have to distinguish honor of following and throughout his career it was the name that I've heard a lot.
[00:49:35] And so it's really really an honor to have as a guest on this podcast Mr. Mike Podhoser.
[00:49:50] Alright Mike Podhoser, how are you doing sir? Are you doing good?
[00:50:03] Good. How about you?
[00:50:05] I'm doing lovely. I am glad to have you on.
[00:50:10] You know, when I was an elected official one of my biggest honors was to get the AFL CIO endorsement.
[00:50:18] And I've got a story to tell you off the air about. I bet you did.
[00:50:26] Yeah, there'll be too long to tell it in the window we're trying to do but I really really appreciate the power of the AFL CIO and to have somebody that played a major role in helping flex that power is really a personal honor for me so I'm glad you're on.
[00:50:45] Well, it's really not the people working people are part of the AFL CIO that matter.
[00:50:51] Well, you know I expect a labor leader to say that.
[00:50:57] You know, so what I like to do with my interviews is start off with a quote and the rules are that it's either something that relates to the issue we're going to talk about something that the person either the guest said or something they've written in a book or article.
[00:51:14] Whatever. So I found this quote from you and I thought it was very, very telling and very interesting.
[00:51:24] It says when we think about the United States, we make the essential era of imagining it as a single nation, a marbled mix of red and blue people.
[00:51:37] But in truth, we have never been one nation.
[00:51:42] We are more like a federated Republic of two nations, blue nation and red nation.
[00:51:47] This is not a metaphor. It is a geographic and historical reality. Talk to me about that quote.
[00:51:56] Sure. And thank you for sit by touching to that. What I mean is that the when if you're paying attention to the political discourse in this country, you just hear about how this is about red people and blue people can't get along and it's a problem at the individual level that we as Americans can't get along with each other.
[00:52:24] In fact, the problem is that we set the nation up in a way to protect the very different ways of living that were present at the founding which of course was a region in which the right to own people have to be protected.
[00:52:45] Right. And so we haven't escaped the system that protects that region's quote way of life.
[00:52:55] Right. And they're obviously after lots of struggle and a civil war and the civil rights movement and everything, it is not literally the same.
[00:53:09] But in terms of the difference between the legal regimes and the two regions, it's still very much is right.
[00:53:19] We see that today in the fact that in the blue part of the country in pretty much if you live there, you have access to an abortion.
[00:53:31] If you live in red states, you do not. Right. And you just go down the line and it's because the way in which we protect the sovereignty of individual states has always prevented us from really having a true national citizenship.
[00:53:52] Right. And and that's the essential problem in the country is that when you add to that all the veto points in terms of Senate filibusters and the Supreme Court and so on, you can never get to that dream that Langston Hughes had of an America that must be that never was right in the essential American idea.
[00:54:19] The Constitution just prevents that from happening. And since on 2008, the convergence of both the election of Barack Obama and the Great Recession, right.
[00:54:36] And so you created the spark that ignited the worst part of the red state coalition, the religious right.
[00:54:49] And almost immediately that key party movement we all knew about and at the time understood properly that it was racist and against Obama and birtherism and all of that.
[00:55:03] What we didn't see at the time was that it was also about the religious right feeling like they had been betrayed by the business side of the Republican coalition that for decades, the business side had the driver's wheel and kept telling them don't worry.
[00:55:24] We're going to point the judges, we're going to get your stuff done. And when McCain on election night 2008 did the right thing he immediately conceded and not only that began his concession by talking about what an important moment for America to have elected Barack Obama.
[00:55:46] Right. That was the beginning of the war on mind was Republicans in the name of me.
[00:55:52] And what we've seen in a straight and unprecedented pace is that those maga beginning as key party folks have basically taken over every aspect of the Republican party.
[00:56:07] And that's why we have the rising political violence in this country, why everything that gets attributed to this amorphous red people blue people is really about the institutions that get the religious right and other the opportunity to hack our constitutional system.
[00:56:30] And until we understand that's the problem and not each other, we have a long way. We can't get out of this.
[00:56:38] Yeah, that's pretty heavy and is also very, very accurate for those people who really pay attention to what's going on and understand history.
[00:56:52] So that's why I wanted to pull that quote to start it off even though a lot of the discussion we're going to talk about is more labor oriented.
[00:57:02] I think I wanted just going to say I wanted the audience to understand how deep a thinker you are because a lot of times people look at the labor movement right.
[00:57:13] They look at the old movies, you know, the latest movie this came out the Irishman right.
[00:57:18] You know, the hearing that just happened last year with the president of the teamsters and US Senator about to go to blows.
[00:57:28] That's sure.
[00:57:29] That's how they look at labor leaders just like yeah, they're smart but these are guys you don't want to get a fight with in the bar, right?
[00:57:36] But the whole essence of the movement has been about not just you say the people on the ground but those the leaders that have the historical depth and the end of strategic intellect to make that solidarity work.
[00:57:57] And so in saying all that at least in my very first question for you is the labor movement back if it is why if it isn't why not.
[00:58:11] So that's a great question I think that and it also can really is an extension of the first question you ask right because what one of the other characteristics when I started out by saying that in blue America, you can have an abortion if you need one in red America.
[00:58:34] Well, the other thing that's true almost as you as comprehensively is that if you are in a blue state getting a union is much easier than if you live in a red state right that.
[00:58:52] And this again goes back historically right that the.
[00:58:58] The states that constitute red America there the economic power there is built around low wages and extracted industry whereas in blue America it's not like big business wants unions, but they are not about wage repression to the same extent.
[00:59:20] So they found a way to coexist with unions right so now how that feeds into answering your question.
[00:59:30] Everybody is very excited about the victories that the UAW and WGA and teamsters and lots of others have had really dramatic victories not just an importantly not just in terms of boosting the wages of the people who currently pay dues.
[00:59:49] But of the ripple effect it has of all the people who are in those industries, for example right after the settlement Toyota raised its wages right.
[01:00:01] And what both WGA and UAW accomplished was with you a W and the people who make electric batteries and with WGA and some of this stuff on AI they actually accomplished policies that had been stalled in Congress right it did fact or so right.
[01:00:26] So yes in that sense labor is back asserting itself an important way right if you are much younger than me you don't realize that the kind of strike activity we're seeing this year is was the normal and up through the 70s or that pretty much for yours many strikes in 1974 as they've been in the last quarter
[01:00:55] century I mean really get your head around that right.
[01:00:59] And we're also excited because we've seen organizing efforts at Amazon Starbucks and trade each other all these places but the problem is that the only realized successes have been the first category where they've already been it probably would surprise people listening to this podcast to know that the workers at Amazon star buff trade all the time.
[01:01:24] So on star buff trade all of those people have not gotten a contract yet right the way the conversation goes is everybody is excited they win their vote and assume the things over.
[01:01:36] And at that point the companies just don't negotiate they drag their feet they file it right it is there are so many barriers to their eventual success right.
[01:01:49] And so what we can see is that where there are already unions worker working people can be powerful but we are still a long way away from being able to have a lot more people in units and that's not an accident right.
[01:02:09] The 1930s during when the depression and FDR came in right that's when the Ma what we understand sort of what a union looks like was made legal with the Wagner act and that was the result of decades of struggle or working people right.
[01:02:28] And it was a surprise people but at that point it was passed with the support of a lot of the Delegue Democrats in the South well what happens and at that point you get the UAW still work every like an almost overnight people are in unions.
[01:02:48] And then what does those southern Democrats didn't anticipate is that the CIO Congress of industrial organizations started organizing in the South and they started being successful at textile mills and tobacco and those were multi racial organizing efforts and that was immediately seen by those other Democrats as what would bring down.
[01:03:18] The Jim Crow system if suddenly white and black working people were working together instead of being set against each other.
[01:03:28] And so the southern Democrats went from being aligned with working people to being aligned with the Republican business people in the South and from thereafter voted as Republicans to tear that down.
[01:03:44] In 1944 by 1947 they were successful in essentially coordinating all of the areas that had not been organized already right and so at that point they created right to work law so that you could create this massive southern low wage region right.
[01:04:05] So made it illegal for unions to help other unions organizing right so before that for example of a supermarket was trying to organize the teamsters could say we're not going to do it.
[01:04:19] And that was enormous working class power that became legal right and all sorts of ways tub to to prevent the formation of working class consciousness in this country.
[01:04:32] And so what's happened since then and the reason why the percentage of people in the union is keeps going down is not because the companies that have been organized like unions lose there they're pretty much settled the O.A.W.
[01:04:51] Right it's because every time there's an expansion in the economy they figure out a way to keep it off limits for unionization right so like right now we have all the gig workers right and the gig workers are being treated by as independent contractors so they can't organize into a union right in California Uber and Lyft spent over a hundred million dollars to get an initiative to do that.
[01:05:20] And in a way that people kind of nod without thinking it through their argument as well you know people want flexibility and freedom and to sort of negotiate their own deal and beyond for the nerves and all of that.
[01:05:36] We'll step back for a second if I were to say that's the argument for not having a union when you think that would apply more to the show running for succession then it does cheer Uber driver.
[01:05:48] And yeah right and yet we've had you know the WGA and the screen actors guild and all of them were like there sort of people built to think they're special in individuals have realized that they're better off collectively.
[01:06:06] And because they started earlier they have a union and we just saw what that right so the idea that it would be bad for Uber drivers to be in a union is really ridiculous right but that's what they do same thing with service workers with the m right if I know there's something special about this new kind of work that we can't let unions in right so.
[01:06:33] The decline in the rate of unionization is a function of the increase in the denominator the total workforce rather than the number of people who are in unions right just like they just their de unionized by preventing growth so that brings us back to your rid the point your question is like what does this mean going for but what it means is that in less.
[01:06:57] The laws are changed and the rest of us realize that like our nation depends on allowing everybody to act collectively if they want to right not only will the Amazon warehouse worker not get what they deserve but our democracy will continue that erode.
[01:07:21] So real quick you do have the term right to work what is that what exactly does that mean because a lot of people have heard that but what is the actual term me yeah right to work is like you know a real oxymoron right but they really sort of you know trademarked it too early.
[01:07:44] The idea the right to work means so learn out the way unions are successful is in so the traditional American way that if the majority of a company or workplace or whatever it's going to be votes to be represented by a union everybody as a member of the union.
[01:08:12] So what right to work is is the right the quote right of people who get the benefits of the contract union negotiates not to have to pay dues to the union right and it's meant obviously to undermine the ability of there to be successful unions and to allow folks to get the benefits without paying the cost.
[01:08:41] So of course what that means for the business like suddenly we have businesses who are so concerned about the rights of working people right the purpose is to make sure that.
[01:08:53] Like these are like on the one hand these businesses are you know firing people or saying the wrong thing in their Facebook feed but on the other hand they're so concerned with those people's vote rights that they want them to be able to opt out of paying dues for a union they voted for and obviously the reason is so that the union doesn't have the resources to fully contest them.
[01:09:19] And that's the problem so which one which event was more detrimental to the labor movement was it right to work laws or the citizens united ruling.
[01:09:37] Oh right to work was I mean the citizens united is terrible and it but that's just like piling on and in the citizens united has been catastrophic for the country in ways that like people for whatever reason feel like they can't talk about right there've been rigorous academic studies that have shown that in after that citizens united.
[01:10:05] Has helped Republicans by three to five points in state legislatures and that is kind of that is the reason we have all of these red trifecta's in the country right and that you have situations like Wisconsin where but the Democrats can win a majority of the votes for state legislature.
[01:10:34] And be worried about Republicans having a two thirds majority right it right it's like it's a big deal it it's had arguably less an effect of Congress which is where everyone pays attention to although it's had huge effects there too but it's had really consequential effects at state legislatures where that kind of money just swamps everything.
[01:11:03] So you mentioned Wisconsin what is the appeal of the Republican party or even Donald Trump in states that traditionally have been strong labor states like Wisconsin like Michigan like Ohio like Pennsylvania.
[01:11:19] I think that the piece of this that really is not put into the mix is the extent to which in those three states on the great recession so damage their economies right and the state.
[01:11:49] And I think for people, especially who are in the sort of DC political conversation bubble right that it's really hard to understand that if you were living in a place like youngstown or earate or you know some of the more Jamesville Wisconsin that as plants were closing and Barack Obama was president right and they're like Democrats weren't doing anything.
[01:12:18] Right that actually reached down to you and I think that it's more that in those places the what brought a lot of working people to the Democratic party was no longer there there was a there was a fundamental tie that was broken.
[01:12:39] And and so I think for what puts those what why those states have been voting for Trump is much more about a sort of failure of the Democratic party deliver for the regions of the state that have swung so widely to Trump.
[01:13:03] Yeah because you know some of the I think some of the concerns have been the issue about gun rights and the issue about immigration has kind of overshadow you know the economic influence and strength that the labor movement would be able to convey to voters.
[01:13:29] But you know the judge about your answer the Democrats have not fully addressed the economic concerns that normally labor people would would pay attention to.
[01:13:43] Right and but it's also sure it's more.
[01:13:50] So when we talk about the reason that these regions are moving away from Democrats because of guns or because of immigration whatever it is right.
[01:14:07] That is what you can see in a survey right it is certainly true that the people who are moving away from Democrats have those answers on polls.
[01:14:19] But in the real world right there's the way things feel in the place you live that's not reducible to what's the Democrats position on guns right it's how to people in your diners in your clubs when you meet people at the PTA how are they talking about all of this stuff right.
[01:14:46] Not enough structure I can answer this on a survey way but just how do people feel about Democrats right and I think in those areas the way they feel is left down right and when they're left down then the fact that they were never really that much an agreement on say guns becomes what they check on their survey right.
[01:15:12] But they had those positions before the Great Recession and we're voting for Democrats right.
[01:15:18] And it's just more than the simplistic approaches that we hear on you know able one even a lot of academic right because it's just so easy to look at only what you can see in a survey.
[01:15:38] All right so over my lifetime I've seen a shift in power amongst the labor movement from U.A.W. and Teamsters UFC W to now SEIU how has that trend been helpful in maintaining the AFL sales political power.
[01:16:00] Or has it been helpful.
[01:16:04] I know because I think I think that I'm not quite sure that hopefully there's editing here if I be I think I think that the reason I'm like trying to figure out what you're asking.
[01:16:28] So you know in 2006 SEIU left the AFL CIO as yeah yeah he himself right so it's kind of a non-sequitur question.
[01:16:41] The maybe I shouldn't have said AFL say oh maybe I should just said the labor movement as a whole that's yeah no that I can answer that yeah so that's the question I think that.
[01:16:58] The that what we've seen continue over the last couple of decades is that whereas in its birth the labor movement was very not the center of power with the industrial unions.
[01:17:17] The starting in the 60s a new center of gravity developed alongside it which is public sector unions.
[01:17:28] And though and then a little bit later and now we're near the same size SEIU success in some service sectors right and that I think has reflected what I was talking about earlier about how difficult it is to organize new segments of the economy.
[01:17:55] But I think that in terms of the effect on political power it hasn't actually changed that much since the 70s in terms of how much leverage the labor movement has in national politics.
[01:18:13] Yeah and I apologize for that because I'm glad to see that's why I need to have historical references. I forgot that those two organizations broke away from the AFL SEIU a couple years ago.
[01:18:26] But yeah the just that you got that we got to just a question to try to show that that the movement and really the essence of the question was because a lot of the industrial unions at a lot of time was and you had mentioned it about the CIO and the South because the CIO kind of was the organization that brought black workers in and I was thinking about a hundred of Alabama for example the coal miners.
[01:18:55] And then when the AFL cell merged and you know that's when you started seeing more unions that had black members UFC W I was a member of that when I was in high school right.
[01:19:07] And so that and that political power they got congressman elected all that stuff. And then now you see with the SEIU how they've been able to gather now they're their the largest labor union in America.
[01:19:22] So I mean you know so that's why I was just I was just trying to follow that trend. But I'm glad you brought that up because that you know that that would kind of throw you off since they're not members anymore.
[01:19:37] I appreciate that so let's close out with this one.
[01:19:42] Do you see the momentum that started in 2023 carrying over in 2024 more specifically to the November general election.
[01:19:53] The momentum in the labor movement. Yes I believe so yes I think that you know that this that the rise of labor labor activity in 23 is.
[01:20:11] Partly a response to the general breakdown in the political system and in democracy right broadening it from just the American experience.
[01:20:27] The when working people feel like they the political system is no longer serving on the economic system is inserving them should the system is not serving them.
[01:20:41] They eventually mobilize in one of two ways they either find a strong man to support who tells them that he is the answer to their problems or they turn to each other and realize that in fact the problem is that they need to actually take agency and organize collectively to improve the system and to make things better for themselves.
[01:21:09] There is enough third way and in America right now we're seeing both things happen obviously we're saying some working people who have given up on America thinking that trumpets the way out the strong the muslim whatever.
[01:21:25] And we're seeing others who are saying no like the way we are the way out right the system is in working for us so we're going to change this.
[01:21:35] Right and that's the central who wins that which saw which rising part of the working class wins is really the answer to what our future is.
[01:21:47] All right Mike if people want to tap into that wisdom of yours how can they get in touch with you.
[01:21:53] Well I have a sub stack or weekend reading it's weekend reading dot net man hopefully you'll subscribe.
[01:22:03] All right well Mike pod hoser thank you for coming on again and just so you know we kind of do we have to Jay Z philosophy here so we try not to edit if we don't have to.
[01:22:19] But I appreciated the the thoughtfulness and and and the and the I guess the term I want to use is insight that you have as far as what's going on not only with the movement in general and politics in general but the people that drive the politics and the movement.
[01:22:45] And that's always been an asset of yours to just somebody who's watching from from a long distance and again it's been honored to meet you in an honor to have you on the pocket.
[01:22:57] Oh thank you likewise all right guys we'll catch you all on the other side.
[01:23:15] All right and we are back so I want to thank my guests in closing for coming on and I want to apologize that we didn't have enough time.
[01:23:37] I know 30 minutes or a little longer it seems like a lot of time but considering the subject matter that both of them was discussing very easily could have had an hour and an hour and a half interview with both of them.
[01:23:55] But I want to thank them for coming on and I want to thank you those of you who have been following the podcast and been faithful listeners for tuning in.
[01:24:12] And my goal is to continue to try to bring quality guests and to offer commentary that will educate and inspire you to stay active and engage in the political process.
[01:24:33] It has been an honor for me to do this and we are now getting ready to embark on our ninth chapter or ninth season of this podcast.
[01:24:52] So the next episode will be season nine and for all of the episodes that I've been able to do.
[01:25:04] I wouldn't be able to do it without your support and your encouragement and your feedback.
[01:25:11] As stated at the beginning of the podcast I would like y'all to subscribe to Patreon and to just continue to listen and talk about what we talk about on this podcast.
[01:25:31] I love y'all greatly appreciate y'all. Until next time.