In this episode, Military Historian Kevin Hymel talks about how his article on the 6888th Central Postal Directory Battalion became a Tyler Perry-directed motion picture. Then Kristin Couch, Associate Director for Title IX & Compliance at Spelman College, explains the importance of Title IX programs and what impact the dissolution of the U. S. Department of Education may have on those programs.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash A Moment with Erik Fleming.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:24 Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:41 Third, go to the website, momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:51 Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:56 Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast
00:00:56 --> 00:01:02 and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 make this moment a movement.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:10 Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:56 Music.
00:01:23 --> 00:01:23 Thank you.
00:01:28 --> 00:01:28 Thank you.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:54 Thank you.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:00 Hello. Welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,
00:02:00 --> 00:02:09 Erik Fleming, and we've got a great podcast for you today. Thank you for tuning in and listening.
00:02:09 --> 00:02:11 I have two guests.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:20 One is a historian and one is a college administrator, but she has a very,
00:02:20 --> 00:02:25 very distinct and unique role at her college.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:33 And as you hear the interview, you will understand why it's distinct and unique,
00:02:33 --> 00:02:35 and especially in this time that we're in.
00:02:36 --> 00:02:38 As far as the historian goes,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:47 You will not recognize him, but you will recognize his work as we get into the
00:02:47 --> 00:02:51 discussion. So I was really, really excited to get both of them to come on.
00:02:52 --> 00:02:57 And they both said that they were pretty excited to be on the podcast,
00:02:57 --> 00:03:01 which is flattering for me, to say the least.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:07 And so I really think that y'all are going to enjoy this show.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:12 I always try to get at least one historian during Black History Month.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:14 I kind of feel like I'm obligated to do that.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:20 And you don't hear me talk a lot about black history per se,
00:03:20 --> 00:03:27 but what I consider this podcast is a contribution to black history because,
00:03:28 --> 00:03:33 you know, and especially from a political sense, to kind of document where we
00:03:33 --> 00:03:37 are and the times we're in. Right.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:45 And so when I'm able to get some people on to talk about history, that's great.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:51 And it's not confined to just February as far as this podcast goes.
00:03:52 --> 00:04:02 And I guess it was McDonald's or somebody that had the black 365 phrase to market that or whatever.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:09 You know, but that's a real thing for us. that we're making history every day
00:04:09 --> 00:04:13 so we don't have to just be confined to the 28 days of February.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 And, you know, this podcast will continue to,
00:04:20 --> 00:04:24 take advantage of that and, and highlight that as much as possible.
00:04:25 --> 00:04:30 Um, so, you know, and one of the other things I want to kind of stress,
00:04:30 --> 00:04:38 cause I put it out there on social media and, you know, I hadn't really gotten
00:04:38 --> 00:04:39 a whole lot of responses.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:42 So I guess, I guess I'm gonna have to do it.
00:04:42 --> 00:04:47 You know, I, I, I'm making appeal at the beginning of the podcast, you know,
00:04:47 --> 00:04:53 for subscribers and all that, but I really want to get to a point where I have
00:04:53 --> 00:04:58 20 subscribers and that's a lot, you know,
00:04:58 --> 00:05:02 considering all the podcasts that are out here and, you know,
00:05:02 --> 00:05:06 is doing good work and telling a story and all that.
00:05:06 --> 00:05:13 And I know not everybody can do with, you know, support everything,
00:05:13 --> 00:05:20 but on Patreon, on, you know, I'm only asking for a dollar a month.
00:05:22 --> 00:05:28 I don't think that's much, you know, and I understand in the totality of things
00:05:28 --> 00:05:33 that's really, really very little, but I also understand the totality of things
00:05:33 --> 00:05:36 that other people, you know, people have other commitments, I should say.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:45 So I just want you to find it in your heart and tell a friend to support this podcast.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 And, you know, the more subscribers I have, you know, there'll be some,
00:05:53 --> 00:05:58 you know, I can do some additional content that'll be strictly for the subscribers.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 And, you know, it may just be commentary for me or, you know,
00:06:04 --> 00:06:06 maybe it's an interview that...
00:06:07 --> 00:06:11 You know, you know, somebody that you like, we can get them back on and just
00:06:11 --> 00:06:17 it'll be just them on that particular special Patreon.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:23 So, you know, but I've put some clips out there. If I have technical difficulties
00:06:23 --> 00:06:28 with an interview, I've reposted that on the Patreon so people can hear it.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:35 You know, just just whatever. It's just another tool for me to put more content
00:06:35 --> 00:06:40 out there. But the main thing is a vehicle to to build subscriptions.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:48 And even though I'm part of a network, we're all black independent people.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:53 Even my my network boss, he's he's he's independent. Right.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:59 And, you know, and all of us that are on the network, you know,
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 we we finance our own projects.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:10 And so, you know, the the more self-sufficient each podcast is in the network,
00:07:10 --> 00:07:12 the better it is for the network as a whole.
00:07:12 --> 00:07:20 So, you know, support NBG Podcast Network, support A Moment With Erik Fleming
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 Podcast, support the other podcasts on the network if you can.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:32 But I'm making my personal pitch, and my goal is by the end of the year to have
00:07:32 --> 00:07:33 20 monthly subscribers.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:40 And it would be an incredible godsend for that to happen.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:46 And I would really, really appreciate that and that would give me more latitude
00:07:46 --> 00:07:51 to do more things for you via this podcast.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:56 All right, so I got that out the way so now it's time to get the program started
00:07:56 --> 00:08:01 and as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:09 Music.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:13 Thanks, Erik. President Trump ousted Joint Chiefs Chair C.Q.
00:08:13 --> 00:08:17 Brown and five other military leaders in a historic Pentagon shake-up.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:24 House Republicans narrowly approved Trump's $4.5 trillion tax cut and border security package.
00:08:24 --> 00:08:29 A U.S. and Ukraine minerals deal agreement reached an impasse after an Oval
00:08:29 --> 00:08:33 Office confrontation between Presidents Trump and Zelensky.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:35 The Supreme Court overturned Richard
00:08:35 --> 00:08:40 Glossop's 1997 murder conviction in Oklahoma and ordered a new trial.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:46 A federal judge denied the AP's bid to restore White House access after its
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 ban for using Gulf of Mexico in its news stories.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:55 Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass dismissed Fire Chief Kristen Crowley over wildfire
00:08:55 --> 00:08:59 response failures, staffing cuts, and refusal to file proper reports.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:04 A Georgia sheriff's deputy will not face charges for fatally shooting Leonard
00:09:04 --> 00:09:09 Cure, a black man previously exonerated from prison after prosecutors deemed
00:09:09 --> 00:09:10 the use of force reasonable.
00:09:11 --> 00:09:16 Republican Congressman Byron Donalds announced a gubernatorial bid in Florida,
00:09:16 --> 00:09:20 citing his legislative experience and President Trump's endorsement.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:26 Rudy Giuliani fulfilled a $148 million defamation judgment to Georgia election
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 workers via a confidential settlement.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:35 A federal judge blocked Trump's ban on DEI programs, ruling they likely violate free speech.
00:09:35 --> 00:09:40 Immigration and Customs Enforcement leadership has been reassigned after Trump's
00:09:40 --> 00:09:48 first-month deportations totaled 37, significantly below Biden's 57
00:09:48 --> 00:09:50 monthly average during his tenure.
00:09:50 --> 00:09:55 A federal judge blocked Trump's indefinite refugee program suspension,
00:09:55 --> 00:09:58 citing executive overreach and harm to families.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:03 Trump's proposal to merge the U.S. Postal Service with the Commerce Department
00:10:03 --> 00:10:07 drew immediate backlash, with critics calling it illegal and harmful to mail
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 service operations. U.S.
00:10:10 --> 00:10:17 Existing home sales fell 4.9% in January to 4.08 million units as high mortgage
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 rates and prices dampened demand.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:26 And Grammy-winning singer Roberta Flack died at the age of 88 I am Grace G,
00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 and this has been A Moment of Life.
00:10:28 --> 00:10:36 Music.
00:10:36 --> 00:10:44 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it's time for my guest, Kevin Hymel.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 Kevin M. Hymel is a historian for Arlington National Cemetery,
00:10:49 --> 00:10:54 where he records events, ceremonies, and funeral services for future record.
00:10:55 --> 00:10:57 Some of his articles have been reposed on the U.S.
00:10:58 --> 00:11:03 Army and the Department of Defense websites. He is also a historian slash tour
00:11:03 --> 00:11:10 guide for Stephen Ambrose Historical Tours and leads World War II European tours
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 of D-Day and General George S.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:18 Patton's battlefields. He is the author of several books, including Patton's
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 War and American General's Combat Leadership Volumes 1 and 2,
00:11:23 --> 00:11:28 in which Volume 2 won the Army Historical Foundation's Distinguished Writer's
00:11:28 --> 00:11:36 Award for Best Biography and was a Gilder Lehrman Prize finalist, Patton's photographs,
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 and Patton's legendary World War II commander.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:45 He has served as the research director for Sovereign Media, which publishes
00:11:45 --> 00:11:49 World War II History magazine, where he continues to write articles.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:54 His article, Fighting a Two-Front War, has been made into the Netflix movie
00:11:54 --> 00:11:58 Six Triple Eight, written and directed by Tyler Perry.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:01 Mr. Hymel was a technical advisor to the film.
00:12:02 --> 00:12:08 Mr. Hymel is also a former, is a former historian for the U.S.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 Army's Combat Studies Institute, where he wrote about small unit operations in Afghanistan.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:17 He has appeared on the History Channel, the American Heroes Channel,
00:12:18 --> 00:12:24 the Science Channel, C-SPAN, and Book TV, speaking about General Patton and military history.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:31 He has worked for more than 20 years for various military and military history
00:12:31 --> 00:12:36 magazines and journals, and has worked as a researcher for the National Archives
00:12:36 --> 00:12:40 and as a historian for the United States Air Force.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:44 He holds a master's degree in American history from Villanova University.
00:12:44 --> 00:12:49 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:12:49 --> 00:12:54 on this podcast, Kevin Hymel. Thank you.
00:12:54 --> 00:13:04 Music.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:08 All right. Kevin Hymel, how are you doing? So are you doing good?
00:13:08 --> 00:13:12 I'm doing great today. How are you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm really,
00:13:12 --> 00:13:17 really honored to have you on because you are a historian.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 And I always try to get one historian during Black History Month.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 I feel like it's my obligation to do that.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:32 Most of the time, you know, people, I give them, I send requests out and And
00:13:32 --> 00:13:38 everybody's busy during this time. So I'm always very fortunate to get at least
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 one. So I'm glad you're the one that gets that distinction this year.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:48 But I wanted you to come on because you wrote an article.
00:13:50 --> 00:13:55 And that article ended up being a major motion picture. Yeah.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 And it's very... You were surprised than me, as I said.
00:14:00 --> 00:14:06 Was it? It's a very rare thing that an article becomes a motion picture.
00:14:06 --> 00:14:09 Usually it's a book or, you know, a series of books or whatever.
00:14:10 --> 00:14:15 So it was just very fascinating. And to find out who the author of that article
00:14:15 --> 00:14:18 was, I said, well, I got to get this gentleman on.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:22 So I'm glad, Ms. Hemel, that you agreed to come on.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:27 So what I like to do to kind of start the conversation is I do like some icebreaker stuff.
00:14:28 --> 00:14:32 Sure. So your first is the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:14:32 --> 00:14:35 And I just want you to give me your opinion about the quote.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:41 It says moral courage is the most valuable and usually the most absent characteristic
00:14:41 --> 00:14:44 in men. What does that quote mean to you?
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 Well, it makes me think of Ulysses S. Grant, who talked about physical courage.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:54 And that's almost easy compared to moral courage.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:59 Because physical courage you do in the moment, whereas moral courage is something
00:14:59 --> 00:15:02 that you really comes from the inside and you have to do every day.
00:15:02 --> 00:15:06 And it means making judgment calls and
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 rising above the immediate situation to who
00:15:09 --> 00:15:12 you really showing who you really are and so
00:15:12 --> 00:15:17 moral courage it's it's a tough hill to climb but you have less to remember
00:15:17 --> 00:15:23 if you have it and you sleep a lot better if you do now you you mentioned general
00:15:23 --> 00:15:28 grant but the general who actually i got that quote from was general patton
00:15:28 --> 00:15:30 oh how about that He said that.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:34 And I know that you're a big George Patton fan.
00:15:34 --> 00:15:38 And if I'm mischaracterizing fan, you're definitely an expert,
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 if anything is. People say that.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:44 Do you love Patton? I said, well, when I was a kid and I saw the movie, I loved Patton.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:49 But as I researched him and found out about his great military achievements,
00:15:49 --> 00:15:57 but also his infidelity, his anti-Semitism, and a lot of his racist views, the love went away.
00:15:57 --> 00:16:02 And I prefer to say I'm fascinated by him, but I think it's important to study
00:16:02 --> 00:16:03 him for a number of reasons.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 One, you can't understand World War II without understanding George S.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:13 Patton and he should not be made a paragon of leadership because he definitely
00:16:13 --> 00:16:16 had his faults as we all do.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 And therefore, when you study him, you have to study the whole man to understand
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 his positives and negatives, his weaknesses like we all have,
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 to understand him better and to understand what is leadership better. Yeah.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:36 And that's part of the thing about, which is why I love history and I love historians
00:16:36 --> 00:16:43 because historians take the mythology away.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:49 Human beings do great things, but not all human beings are great,
00:16:50 --> 00:16:51 right? Or they're not totally great.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 No human beings are great in certain ways, but yes. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:56 --> 00:16:59 So we all have our demons that we all fight against. That's exactly right.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:05 All right. So now my next icebreaker is something I call 20 questions.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:10 So I want you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:14 Okay. I'll go with 12. All right, 12.
00:17:16 --> 00:17:21 All right. What advice do you have for recognizing fake news,
00:17:22 --> 00:17:25 propaganda, misinformation, disinformation? What.
00:17:27 --> 00:17:31 How would you tell somebody to diagnose that?
00:17:32 --> 00:17:36 Well, personally, what I always do is I go to Snopes.com whenever I hear something
00:17:36 --> 00:17:41 a little bit gray, and I find them very objective in their deciphering.
00:17:41 --> 00:17:45 There's also certain buzzwords you'll hear certain generalizations you'll hear
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 in a myth, you know, or some fake news.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 So when you start hearing those things or like when they, they try to draw a
00:17:52 --> 00:17:54 straight line between two things that isn't straight.
00:17:55 --> 00:17:58 That's when you start questioning. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:03 Yeah, that's good. So, Snoops, you said? Snoops. Snoops.com.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:08 I've heard of Snopes, but I don't think I've ever really looked into them.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 I might need to check them out. Snopes.com. Okay.
00:18:12 --> 00:18:16 All right. So, what got you engaged in military history?
00:18:17 --> 00:18:22 So I tell people that when I was a little kid, I had a very large G.I. Joe collection.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:27 Now I'm 58 years old, so we're talking those foot tall G.I. Joes.
00:18:28 --> 00:18:32 And I used to write stories about them. And now I'm 58 years old and I'm still doing it.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 Always fascinated with that element of society, the military.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 I'm always fascinated with war because it's kind of the worst thing that can
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 ever happen to a person and really kind of reveals who they are.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:48 And I guess when I was about 13, I saw the movie Patton and was fascinated by
00:18:48 --> 00:18:49 it, as I was mentioned earlier.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 And when I went to college, I majored in journalism because I wanted to write.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:56 I wanted to be a reporter, all those kinds of things.
00:18:56 --> 00:19:00 But I found myself always reading military history books.
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 And so finally, I was like, what am I doing with my life? This is what I'm really passionate about.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 I don't know if there's a career in it or not, but I have to pursue what I'm
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 really interested in. And I've never looked back.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 Yeah. Yeah, I remember the GI.
00:19:17 --> 00:19:21 What does GI stand? Do you remember what GI stands for? Somebody told me and
00:19:21 --> 00:19:22 I can't. Government issue.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:26 Government issue. Government issue. So when a guy joined the army in World War
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 II, they would give them government issued clothes, government issued shoes,
00:19:30 --> 00:19:31 government issued rifle.
00:19:31 --> 00:19:34 And so they're basically, they say, well, I'm government issue also.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:39 So that's where the term GI Joe comes from, because they would give people from
00:19:39 --> 00:19:42 different countries like names, like Ivan was the Russian soldier.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:48 A Tommy was a Brit and the Joe was the American. So G.I. Joe. Yeah.
00:19:48 --> 00:19:52 I knew I had heard this story and I knew it had something to do with government,
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 but I couldn't remember what the actual initials meant.
00:19:56 --> 00:20:00 Yeah. And I can relate to those G.I. Joe dolls. We're about the same age.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:04 So I definitely know the Kung Fu grip. Oh, my God. When that came out,
00:20:04 --> 00:20:05 everybody lost their mind.
00:20:06 --> 00:20:11 Yep. All right. So what was the six triple eight? Yeah.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:17 So it's the 6888 Central Postal Directory Battalion. That's their full name.
00:20:17 --> 00:20:19 So it was a military unit of the U.S. Army.
00:20:19 --> 00:20:26 And its job, the members, the soldiers of the 6888, their job was to catch up
00:20:26 --> 00:20:28 a backlog of mail in Birmingham, England.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:32 Now, it wasn't all the mail. But if you sent a letter to a loved one fighting
00:20:32 --> 00:20:38 in Europe and they'd either transferred units or they were in the hospital or
00:20:38 --> 00:20:41 they'd been killed, that letter would bounce back to Birmingham,
00:20:41 --> 00:20:47 England from as far back as 1943 or even 42 and just gather up.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:50 There wasn't a system to get that mail delivered.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:56 So by 1945, the last year of the war, they realized they have a big problem on their hands.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:02 And African-American leaders have been pushing the Roosevelt administration
00:21:02 --> 00:21:05 to include blacks more in the military.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 And what they did was they put out a notice to any woman who had volunteered
00:21:10 --> 00:21:14 for the army was in the army and said, if you're willing to go overseas,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 sign up, we're going to send you to Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:23 You'll get received combat training, climbing rope ladders, running through obstacle courses.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:28 And if you qualify, we're going to send you to Europe. Now, a lot of these women
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 did not know what the task was going to be.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:35 They merely wanted to serve their country and were not afraid to go into a combat zone.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:39 So 855 women signed up. They made it through the training.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:44 They went over to England, to Birmingham. They were only given six months to
00:21:44 --> 00:21:45 catch up this backlog of mail.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:48 We're talking multiple warehouses filled with mail.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:50 Only given six months to do it.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:55 They were incredibly criticized both for being black and for being women.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 They caught the mail up in three.
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 So they were given six months to do it. They did it in three.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 Yeah, and that was the cool thing for those who have not seen the movie yet
00:22:05 --> 00:22:10 and it's not too many people that haven't seen the movie, that was one of the
00:22:10 --> 00:22:14 cool things in seeing how they went about.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:21 Setting up a system to make it so that they could be as efficient as possible
00:22:21 --> 00:22:26 in the middle of a war zone, because Birmingham, England was not necessarily a safe place.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:32 It was safer than some of the other frontline spots, but, you know,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:38 they were still hearing bombs and attacks, you know, while they were doing their work.
00:22:38 --> 00:22:42 So how did you find this story?
00:22:42 --> 00:22:46 So I first found the story in 2008. I was working for the U.S.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:51 Army in a program they had developed to sort of promote the military and people
00:22:51 --> 00:22:52 that supported soldiers.
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 The logic being soldiers get medals for what they do. But what about family
00:22:56 --> 00:23:00 members that support them or celebrities that go overseas and entertain them
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 or veterans who speak to young soldiers?
00:23:03 --> 00:23:07 And one of my co-workers came to me and she said, Kevin, I found three veterans
00:23:07 --> 00:23:09 from this unit called the 6888.
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 I said, I've never heard of that. What is it? And when she explained it to me,
00:23:13 --> 00:23:15 she said, well, I want to put on a ceremony for them. I said,
00:23:15 --> 00:23:16 well, I'm going to write their story.
00:23:17 --> 00:23:21 And so one of the veterans names was Mary Ragland. Michelle Obama mentions her
00:23:21 --> 00:23:25 name at the end of the movie. She lived in an apartment in Northwest DC.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 So I went to her apartment and while I was interviewing her,
00:23:28 --> 00:23:33 she went into her closet and pulled out this stack of documents and handed it
00:23:33 --> 00:23:34 to me. And I'm going through them.
00:23:35 --> 00:23:38 And I said, Mary, what am I looking at? She said, oh, these are some of the
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 unit records. I was a clerk, so I kept the records.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:46 And I'm like, this is amazing. This is every historian's dream to have these primary resources.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:50 So to build on that, I drove down to the National Archives in College Park,
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 Maryland. I said, I want to see all the records on the 6888.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:55 And they said, we don't have any of them.
00:23:56 --> 00:24:00 The records of most African-American units have been destroyed from World War II.
00:24:00 --> 00:24:05 I've been told that when Harry Truman desegregated the military in 1948, the U.S.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:09 Army said, well, now we're one big happy army. We don't have segregated units,
00:24:09 --> 00:24:12 so we're going to destroy the records. We don't need them. I think it was rather
00:24:12 --> 00:24:13 insidious of a decision.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:18 So I realized I was the one person who had these documents. I told Mary,
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 I said, you are the archives.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:25 So I wrote the article based on my interview with her and the two other women and these documents.
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 And then I moved on. I'm an historian. I'm a military historian.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:31 I've got other veterans interview stories to write.
00:24:31 --> 00:24:36 So I put the 6888 behind me. I worked at Fort Leavenworth interviewing soldiers
00:24:36 --> 00:24:40 back from Afghanistan. and then I got a job, Lackland Air Force Base,
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 working with Air Force Medicine as an historian.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 And my friends back at Leavenworth started calling me up and they said,
00:24:46 --> 00:24:48 Kevin, there's posters going up all over Leavenworth.
00:24:49 --> 00:24:52 They're going to build a monument to the 6888 and there's a phone number on
00:24:52 --> 00:24:55 the poster. You need to call that. You're the 6888 guy.
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 And so I called the number. It was a gentleman named Carlton Philpott.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00 He was spearheading the effort.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:04 And he said, we found three more veterans. We're going to put on a parade for
00:25:04 --> 00:25:07 them. We're going to honor them the way they should have been back in 1945.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:11 And I said, well, I don't know what I can do for you. I said,
00:25:11 --> 00:25:13 well, you know what? I really like what you're doing.
00:25:13 --> 00:25:17 So how about I interview one of these women that you found and I'll write her
00:25:17 --> 00:25:20 story and publish it in WW2 History Magazine.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:26 So he said, man, have I got the woman for you. Her name is Lena Derricotte King and she's a pill.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:31 And so I called Lena. We had a great time in the phone, 94 years old.
00:25:31 --> 00:25:35 She still did all of her own cooking and went out dancing every Saturday night.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:38 And normally I interview a veteran two or three times.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:43 I talked to Lena about 10 times. She would call me at work.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:48 Kevin, I just remembered another story and I'd have to grab a pencil and a paper and jot it down.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:52 And we just got along great. She was such a great woman.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 And as we were wrapping up the interview, I said, well, you know,
00:25:55 --> 00:25:59 Lena, I'm going to see you at the dedication of this monument.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:04 And she said, oh, Kevin, I can't wait to meet you because you sound to me just
00:26:04 --> 00:26:06 like Dr. Louis Henry Gates.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:09 And I thought, oh my God, she thinks I'm black.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 And I thought, I'm going to meet this woman. She's going to have a heart attack
00:26:12 --> 00:26:15 and I will be responsible for killing a World War II veteran.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:20 Well, I did meet her. She had a bit of a shock, but she smiled and we got along great.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:24 And I wrote up the story. I included the part about the monument.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:31 And my publisher at WW2 History Magazine, Carl Nam, called me up and he said, Kevin, this is a movie.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:35 This story is a movie. I know some producers. I'm going to put you in touch with them.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:41 So I ended up talking to Carlota Espinoza and Carrie Selig. They were very kind
00:26:41 --> 00:26:43 to me. They were very enthusiastic about it.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:47 And they did what you call shopping it around Hollywood. would.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:51 And about, I don't know, 10 months, almost a year later, they called me up and
00:26:51 --> 00:26:56 they said, Hey, Tyler Perry's going to call you. And I'm like, yeah, right.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:01 And two days later, I get this phone call with a 404 area code, which is Atlanta.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:05 And it was Mr. Perry. And I, and he said, are you the guy that wrote the article?
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 And I said, yes, Mr. Perry. He goes, it's Tyler.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:12 And I said, well, Tyler, I am the guy that wrote the article.
00:27:12 --> 00:27:15 And he goes, okay, hey, from now on, you're my new best friend.
00:27:16 --> 00:27:21 And so from there on, I probably talked to Tyler once or twice a day as he wrote
00:27:21 --> 00:27:26 the script and I advised him, you know, on the military angles and what you can and cannot do.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:31 And I think he wrote a brilliant script. He hired me as a technical advisor
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 on set. So they flew me down to Atlanta.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 Actually, he flew me out to California to LA for the table read.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 So I got to meet all these young ladies and they were so enthusiastic about
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 the movie. they had done their hair up in 1940s hairdos.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 That was the kind of vibe that was going into this movie.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:53 There's so much excitement, so much willingness to portray these women.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:57 And I know that Oprah at one time briefed them and said, these women brought
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 dignity to the military and you have to capture that.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:05 So then I was on set in the rain for a lot of the battle scenes.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 I was able to advise Kerry Washington on her character and some of the other ladies.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:14 And, you know, I was so in the weeds with it. Tyler would send me,
00:28:14 --> 00:28:16 you know, the movie and I'd have to like, okay, you can do this.
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18 You can't do this. We got to edit this word.
00:28:18 --> 00:28:23 And I thought it was good. And then, and I always called it my movie and the
00:28:23 --> 00:28:26 guy, you know, I remember with the article, well, they had a showing at the
00:28:26 --> 00:28:30 African-American history museum in DC that I, that Tyler let me attend.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:37 And I watched it and to see the audience respond to gasp and cheer and,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:39 you know, just be so invested.
00:28:39 --> 00:28:43 I was like, this is not my movie. This is Tyler Perry's movie.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:48 And it has just been such a positive experience from the get-go.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:51 That it's beyond all of my expectations.
00:28:51 --> 00:28:55 I, I love writing articles. I love writing books. That is my end goal.
00:28:55 --> 00:29:00 And so to, to, to go up that notch and have a movie made about something I wrote
00:29:00 --> 00:29:03 is like such a dream that I never even dreamt it.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:05 And so it's just been an amazing experience.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:14 Yeah. And that sounds awesome. So what, what did you learn about,
00:29:14 --> 00:29:17 about movie making, right it
00:29:17 --> 00:29:21 sounds like that was kind of an interesting experience
00:29:21 --> 00:29:25 you had the table read and all the people are already kind of like in character
00:29:25 --> 00:29:29 with their hairstyles right right well what what did what did you learn about
00:29:29 --> 00:29:35 that process and and and and interacting with oh there was one other question
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 before you answer that did did did did miss endicott.
00:29:40 --> 00:29:45 I'm saying her name wrong. Right. Just say Lena, you know, Lena Derricotte. Derricotte.
00:29:45 --> 00:29:50 Lena Derricotte. Did Carrie get to interact with her any or was strictly between
00:29:50 --> 00:29:56 you and Carrie Washington as far as helping develop the background for a character?
00:29:57 --> 00:30:02 It really was. Tyler met with her several times, but I don't believe Carrie Washington ever had.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:07 So Carrie Washington was actually portraying the battalion commander, Charity Adams.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:10 And yeah and she had passed away she
00:30:10 --> 00:30:14 did write a memoir that's pretty good that's very good but
00:30:14 --> 00:30:17 i was able to talk with a charity adams son
00:30:17 --> 00:30:20 and so right before i flew down
00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 to atlanta he called me stanley and he said kevin can i tell you some stuff
00:30:24 --> 00:30:30 about my mom and i was like yeah bring it and i was able to tell carrie we were
00:30:30 --> 00:30:35 filming the scene when the women first arrive in birmingham england and i said
00:30:35 --> 00:30:38 carrie can i tell you some stuff and she said yeah i said Well, according to Stanley,
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 she always wore yellow gloves because she wanted to look a little different.
00:30:43 --> 00:30:44 She didn't want to look like every other soldier.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 And Carrie leaned her head back and she went, wardrobe. And this guy came running
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 over and she said, you've got to get the yellow gloves.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 And he said, we can't do it now, but we'll try to do it by the end of the movie.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:01 And if you watch the movie, the very last scene where they get saluted for their
00:31:01 --> 00:31:05 achievements, when she turns that salute back, she's wearing the yellow gloves.
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 So for all of my contributions, that might be the one I'm most proud of.
00:31:09 --> 00:31:14 That's pretty cool. And for the record, Ebony Obsidian played Lena.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:20 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes. And she did a fantastic job.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:25 Yeah. And so, yeah, that's, that's just cool. So.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 You once stated, well, I was going somewhere with another question and,
00:31:31 --> 00:31:36 oh, just talking about the experience. You asked me about what it was like, yeah.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:39 Yeah, your thoughts about the movie making experience.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:45 Yeah. So when I write, you know, I'm using different sources to put a piece of story together.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:51 And what I saw on set is Tyler filming sections and things over and over again,
00:31:51 --> 00:31:56 because he's just building a big, almost a library of things to then go through
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 when he sits down to piece it all together.
00:31:59 --> 00:32:05 And I didn't realize to make a two hour film just takes so much effort from so many people.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 You know, I met all of the different producers, the set designers.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 We were, we were still in COVID protocol.
00:32:12 --> 00:32:15 And so I would sometimes pull my mask down to say something I'd forget.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:19 And they'd have someone on set going, sir, you know, got to put the mask up.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:20 And it was freezing rain.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:23 And a guy came up to me, he goes, here's some hand warmers. I mean,
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27 they just had people there to take care of you, you know, just to make everything smooth.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:35 And I came away with an immense respect for Tyler Perry because he is directing hundreds of people.
00:32:35 --> 00:32:40 And there was a scene where the women marched towards him and he's got the camera
00:32:40 --> 00:32:41 and everything. And he yells, cut.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:46 And he had a bullhorn. And he says, ladies, you got to do better than that.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:49 You're black. You got to know how to march.
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 And everybody kind of started laughing. And then he said, it got on the bullhorn.
00:32:53 --> 00:32:55 He goes, don't make me yell at you.
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58 And everybody kind of stiffened their spines. And then he said,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:01 and worse, don't make Medea yell at you.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:04 And he launched into the Medea voice.
00:33:04 --> 00:33:09 Everybody laughed. And that was the atmosphere on set. He was in control.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:11 He was relaxed. He had a sense of humor.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 And it's one of those things like, if I ever direct a ton of people,
00:33:14 --> 00:33:20 I want to be like him and the man was so generous to me on so many levels.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 The women of the six AAA earned the congressional gold medal.
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 There was an association that did all the work for that.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:33 And when they were going to give Lena hers in Las Vegas, they invited me and
00:33:33 --> 00:33:35 the ticket was like 800 bucks.
00:33:35 --> 00:33:37 And I'm like, guys, I just can't swing that.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:40 The next day, Tyler Perry's assistant called me and said, okay,
00:33:40 --> 00:33:42 Limo's going to meet you at the door.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 He's going to take you to the airport. He's going to fly you there.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:48 He's going to put you up in the Bellagio, you know, just everything,
00:33:48 --> 00:33:51 you know, he didn't have to do that, but that's the kind of person Tyler Perry is.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 That's awesome. Did you get to meet Oprah? I did not.
00:33:56 --> 00:34:01 She flew out the day I flew in, but I did get a photograph of her dressing room
00:34:01 --> 00:34:05 and all of my six sisters went crazy when I sent them that photo.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:11 Yeah, I, you know, I have a funny story real quick.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:17 So when, when I was running for the U.S. Senate in 2006 in Mississippi,
00:34:17 --> 00:34:20 mm-hmm oprah had dedicated a boys
00:34:20 --> 00:34:24 and girls club in her hometown of Kosciusko so
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28 there's a whole lot of stories we
00:34:28 --> 00:34:33 can get into all that but directly with oprah so i'm talking with Gayle King
00:34:33 --> 00:34:38 and she's doing the typical gayle king thing do you know cory booker and how
00:34:38 --> 00:34:42 long you've been in politics yeah yeah and all that stuff and she really was
00:34:42 --> 00:34:47 kind of holding me hoping that i could get a chance to physically meet Oprah.
00:34:47 --> 00:34:55 And then her, she got called away because they were all going to Oprah's aunt's house.
00:34:55 --> 00:34:57 So I went to,
00:34:58 --> 00:35:04 and talk to somebody else. And then Oprah was standing like by herself,
00:35:04 --> 00:35:06 like right there in the lobby.
00:35:06 --> 00:35:11 And so, right. Gail saw me. She said, there she is. There she is.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:13 Right. And then she disappeared again.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:19 So I'm making my way to Oprah. And sure enough, some woman physically grabbed
00:35:19 --> 00:35:21 oprah by the shoulders and said, we have to leave.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:25 And she turned Oprah around and they were gone. It was almost like Secret Service
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 action. And so I was like, this close.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:33 I mean, I was right there on the stage, you know what I'm saying,
00:35:33 --> 00:35:36 close to her, but I never got a chance to say anything to her.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:41 So I definitely know how you feel about all that. And then one day I'll tell
00:35:41 --> 00:35:44 you the whole story, but I just wanted to get that abbreviated thing.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:48 It's like, you know, when you get that close, you want to at least shake their
00:35:48 --> 00:35:50 hand or talk to them or something.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52 But I definitely understand. At least you got an address.
00:35:53 --> 00:35:57 So real quick when we when i went to the hollywood premiere i
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 met a number of celebrities we were walking the it's
00:36:00 --> 00:36:05 a black carpet it's not a red carpet and i kind of finished up i saw tyler so
00:36:05 --> 00:36:08 i went over and talked to him and he introduced me some people and i went into
00:36:08 --> 00:36:12 the theater and i didn't know it but oprah came in behind me and they all did
00:36:12 --> 00:36:17 pictures with all the producers and stuff and i was like oh i missed that she's
00:36:17 --> 00:36:20 not across the aisle from me with two bodyguards,
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24 and sitting three rows behind her was George Lucas.
00:36:24 --> 00:36:27 And I turned to my sister who I brought as my plus one.
00:36:27 --> 00:36:30 And I said, listen, I don't think I'm ever going to have this chance again.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:34 I'm going to go talk to George Lucas and try to get some pictures.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:36 Cause I took a picture. I got like the back of his head.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:40 And so I went over and I said, Mr. Lucas, my name's Kevin Hymel.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:42 I wrote the article, the movie's based on.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:45 And I just wanted you to know that Tyler called me one day and told me that
00:36:45 --> 00:36:48 you had seen a rough cut and you had some questions and we worked to answer
00:36:48 --> 00:36:50 all your questions for the film.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 And I think it's a better film because of your contribution. And he went, okay.
00:36:56 --> 00:37:00 And I said, okay, you have a great night, sir. And so I went back to my sister
00:37:00 --> 00:37:02 and I said, did you get that?
00:37:02 --> 00:37:06 And she said, no, I was trying to get an angle on Oprah to get her picture.
00:37:06 --> 00:37:07 And so she totally missed it.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:11 But I did get to meet this young man.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:17 He was so emotional. He was holding a picture of his grandmother in uniform. She had been in the 6888.
00:37:17 --> 00:37:21 He hugged me three times and he got a bit teary-eyed. And he said,
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23 thank you so much for what you've done.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 This is so powerful. And I was like, I'm happy to do it.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:30 And then later on Entertainment Tonight, they were doing a story on the red
00:37:30 --> 00:37:31 carpet there, the black carpet.
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 And they said, even rapper Little Sean was there. And I'm like,
00:37:36 --> 00:37:38 I didn't know who that was.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:42 So I met little Sean and I sat next
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 to Mookie Betts the outfielder for
00:37:45 --> 00:37:47 the for the Mets I'm sorry for the Dodgers and he
00:37:47 --> 00:37:53 told me he said what you've done is amazing and I said me you won the World
00:37:53 --> 00:37:58 Series you know I think I pale in comparison to that now that's maybe my bias
00:37:58 --> 00:38:03 but that's that's part of the amazing experience the people I got to meet you
00:38:03 --> 00:38:06 know through this process and just everything being positive.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:09 No one was like, can't believe you wrote this. I mean, everybody was happy and
00:38:09 --> 00:38:11 excited and I was happy for them.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 Yeah. Yeah. That just sounds incredible. That's a cool experience.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:21 So let's dial it down and talk about a not so cool experience.
00:38:21 --> 00:38:27 You once stated that the most deplorable trait of a historical figure was prejudice.
00:38:28 --> 00:38:32 How did prejudice impact your research,
00:38:32 --> 00:38:35 on the six triple a was it
00:38:35 --> 00:38:39 it didn't sound like you had any real
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 issue other than you you had
00:38:42 --> 00:38:45 the only real set of records kept on
00:38:45 --> 00:38:52 them but as far as like maybe reading through some of the stuff you know were
00:38:52 --> 00:38:55 you you know were you somewhat uncomfortable about some of the language that
00:38:55 --> 00:39:00 was used just kind of talk about you know as you were putting everything together
00:39:00 --> 00:39:04 for the article So what kind of shook you a little bit?
00:39:05 --> 00:39:07 Well, there was definitely the use of the N-word.
00:39:08 --> 00:39:12 And I had heard about it before, but then to hear it from someone directly that,
00:39:12 --> 00:39:16 you know, when they got to England, that the British were very hesitant around
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 them and they, you know, found out that they had been told by white soldiers
00:39:20 --> 00:39:23 that, you know, African-Americans had tails,
00:39:23 --> 00:39:28 you know, to hear that from somebody that they had actually been told that was just very real to me.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:33 And I didn't want to ignore any of that in my writing. To me,
00:39:33 --> 00:39:36 that, you know, in some ways is the most important part.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 I think that our country's history with racism, systemic racism,
00:39:41 --> 00:39:46 however you want to describe it, a big part of that is erasure of history.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:52 And so, you know, I heard this story and I just wanted to tell it.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:55 I wanted the people to understand, with everybody I interview,
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 I want people to understand them and what they've gone through.
00:39:59 --> 00:40:03 And so to me, the prejudice is almost as important as any other element of the story.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:07 Story and you know and i do mention about you know lena not realizing i was
00:40:07 --> 00:40:11 white and i think that her thinking i was black because we're just talking on
00:40:11 --> 00:40:14 the phone i think made her more comfortable to talk about the prejudice she
00:40:14 --> 00:40:16 faced so i'm very grateful for that,
00:40:17 --> 00:40:22 but you know it never really made me uncomfortable because i wanted to tell that story and.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:28 I know that people use the N-word even today, so nothing really shocked me,
00:40:28 --> 00:40:29 but I wanted to make sure it was known.
00:40:29 --> 00:40:35 And actually, I gave a few examples in my story of the prejudice that Lena specifically
00:40:35 --> 00:40:40 faced, and my editor cut some of those out, and I was very upset about it.
00:40:40 --> 00:40:43 And I called him up. I'm like, why did you cut this part out?
00:40:43 --> 00:40:46 He goes, well, you already addressed it. And he goes, actually,
00:40:46 --> 00:40:49 Kevin, it's a little bit your fault because you wrote an extra sidebar about
00:40:49 --> 00:40:52 the memorial. So we had to cut parts out of the story.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:55 Now, fortunately, I kept the original manuscript.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:58 So when Tyler contacted me, I
00:40:58 --> 00:41:02 sent him the manuscript so he would have all those more resources to use.
00:41:02 --> 00:41:06 I also would like to mention that the women of the Six Triple Eight Association.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:11 Liz Helm Frazier and Edna Cummings, after this, they would contact me and say,
00:41:11 --> 00:41:12 Kevin, and we got another veteran.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 And I would say, well, would you like a black woman to interview her?
00:41:17 --> 00:41:21 Because I understand where I stand on all of this, you know,
00:41:21 --> 00:41:22 and I don't want to be disrespectful.
00:41:22 --> 00:41:26 And they'd say, no, you know, the story, you know how to get published.
00:41:27 --> 00:41:31 We want you to do it. So it was something I was, my position as a white male,
00:41:31 --> 00:41:35 I was acutely aware of and never wanted to overstep.
00:41:35 --> 00:41:40 And with a lot of my story, my interviews with veterans, I don't do a lot of opinion.
00:41:41 --> 00:41:44 It's like, you tell me your story, I will put it into words.
00:41:44 --> 00:41:46 That is what I do as an historian.
00:41:46 --> 00:41:50 And, you know, with a biography, you know, I wait till the end to give a conclusion
00:41:50 --> 00:41:56 of sorts, but with articles, no, their story does the job. Yeah.
00:41:56 --> 00:42:06 So last question, why is it important to know the history of African-Americans in the military?
00:42:07 --> 00:42:11 You know, a lot of people, a lot of young people,
00:42:12 --> 00:42:19 just don't really know that the military was segregated for a long time.
00:42:20 --> 00:42:27 And, you know, they're used to seeing now relatives or their parents may have served or whatever.
00:42:27 --> 00:42:33 So they can't really, until they read it, they can't really conceive that at one time the U.S.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:39 Military was segregated. Why do you think, as a historian, why do you think
00:42:39 --> 00:42:44 that's important to tell those stories about the African-American contributions?
00:42:45 --> 00:42:51 I think it's important because when you're dealing with prejudice.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:55 One of the things you want, if you're prejudiced towards a group,
00:42:55 --> 00:42:57 you want to be able to say, hey, they're not like us.
00:42:57 --> 00:43:00 They don't love our country like we do.
00:43:00 --> 00:43:03 They've never done anything for us. you know
00:43:03 --> 00:43:05 and by doing the research and finding out no
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 you're wrong they contributed just as much as everybody
00:43:08 --> 00:43:15 else but that story is just not being told on the same level so it's really
00:43:15 --> 00:43:20 incumbent on the historian to go find those stories and illuminate them and
00:43:20 --> 00:43:26 say no no no no everybody contributed there everybody was patriotic and i stress
00:43:26 --> 00:43:28 this with the six triple eight You know,
00:43:28 --> 00:43:33 a lot of military historians or even history buffs, they love to say how soldiers
00:43:33 --> 00:43:36 in the airborne and soldiers in the rangers were all volunteers.
00:43:37 --> 00:43:42 Well, guess what? Every single woman that served in the military in World War II was a volunteer.
00:43:42 --> 00:43:47 There was no draft for women. So they made that choice to put themselves in
00:43:47 --> 00:43:50 harm's way to defeat our country's enemies.
00:43:50 --> 00:43:55 And I think it was important, particularly in World War II with a segregated military.
00:43:56 --> 00:43:59 Why would anybody want to serve in a segregated military where you're going
00:43:59 --> 00:44:01 to be treated like a second-class citizen?
00:44:01 --> 00:44:04 Because you're going to make it better for future generations.
00:44:04 --> 00:44:08 And now there's a lot of scholarship coming out saying that the civil rights
00:44:08 --> 00:44:15 movement of the 60s was rooted in World War II because blacks volunteered into tanks and planes,
00:44:16 --> 00:44:18 pitching the mail, doing what it took.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:24 And not only did it show that African-Americans were just as patriotic as everybody else,
00:44:24 --> 00:44:30 But it also gave exposure to prejudiced white soldiers to suddenly see a black
00:44:30 --> 00:44:34 soldier on the battlefield doing their job, risking their lives and going, oh,
00:44:35 --> 00:44:37 maybe I was wrong about all this.
00:44:37 --> 00:44:42 And so it gave that feeling to whites that, you know, this stuff our parents
00:44:42 --> 00:44:44 told us might not be true.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:48 So when you see the civil rights marches from the 1960s, it's not all black people.
00:44:49 --> 00:44:53 There are white people in those groups, too, that realize that this is an injustice
00:44:53 --> 00:44:54 and it must be corrected.
00:44:55 --> 00:45:00 And, you know, even today where there's a lot of, you know, canceling of African-American
00:45:00 --> 00:45:01 events within the federal government,
00:45:02 --> 00:45:05 you know, in different places, Black History Month, I mean, the evidence is
00:45:05 --> 00:45:09 right there today that there's an attempted erasure going on.
00:45:09 --> 00:45:11 And it'll always be that way.
00:45:11 --> 00:45:15 And so you always kind of have to push for these things because it's important,
00:45:15 --> 00:45:21 you know, that these people serve, that everybody who wanted to served and don't
00:45:21 --> 00:45:23 try to tell me differently.
00:45:23 --> 00:45:26 And so I can write lots of articles and
00:45:26 --> 00:45:29 they'll get out to 50 70 people but for
00:45:29 --> 00:45:32 Tyler Perry to make a movie out of it suddenly millions
00:45:32 --> 00:45:37 and millions of people are becoming aware and with the the number one thing
00:45:37 --> 00:45:44 people tell me when they meet me I had no idea and I'm like good now you do
00:45:44 --> 00:45:50 you know and I gave a talk the other day that when I enter when I see somebody and hear their a vet.
00:45:50 --> 00:45:54 I want to interview them. I want to write their story, but I'm only one person.
00:45:54 --> 00:45:58 And it drives me nuts to meet people who go, oh my gosh, I met this guy.
00:45:58 --> 00:46:02 He did all these great things. I'm like, did you write it down? No.
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 Hearing historical stories is great. Interviewing a vet or anyone who has gone
00:46:08 --> 00:46:10 through an historical event, great.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:14 Write it down because you never know a hundred years from now,
00:46:15 --> 00:46:20 an historian like me is going to go digging in archives and libraries and all
00:46:20 --> 00:46:22 different sources to try to tell that story.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:25 And it's important that you help.
00:46:26 --> 00:46:33 Yeah. So, so Kevin, how can people get in touch with you? How can they follow you?
00:46:33 --> 00:46:37 How can they sign up for one of those tours you do? Just go ahead and give me your spiel.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:43 Sure. So I'm on Facebook, But more importantly, I give all my tours with a company
00:46:43 --> 00:46:45 called Stephen Ambrose Historical Tours.
00:46:46 --> 00:46:50 Ambrose is famous for writing the book Band of Brothers, and that was really
00:46:50 --> 00:46:51 the first tour the company did.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:54 But they also do D-Day tours. I lead General Patton tours.
00:46:55 --> 00:47:01 Last year, maybe two years ago, I co-led a tour for the 6888,
00:47:01 --> 00:47:06 where we took the descendants of the 6888 members to all the locations where
00:47:06 --> 00:47:08 the women did their jobs in World War II.
00:47:08 --> 00:47:12 And I know they're looking to keep that tour going. And so I would encourage
00:47:12 --> 00:47:16 people, if you're inspired by the movie, go on one of these tours.
00:47:16 --> 00:47:19 And if you're the opposite of that and you want a tour of a great,
00:47:19 --> 00:47:22 brilliant general who was really racist, come on my tour.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:31 Well, Kevin, I, Kevin, he meant, I, he meant, I'm sorry.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:37 I greatly appreciate the fact that, that you were the one who,
00:47:37 --> 00:47:39 who was able to tell that story.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:46 And I, I, like I said, I have a soft spot for teachers. I have a soft spot for historians.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:53 I love history. I think that you can't really do a lot of stuff,
00:47:53 --> 00:47:58 especially somebody like me that's political, unless you have the backstory.
00:47:58 --> 00:48:04 You know, it's one thing to react to what you see, but you got to understand why this is happening.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:07 Something led to that moment, right?
00:48:07 --> 00:48:09 So I greatly appreciate you who
00:48:09 --> 00:48:14 dedicates your time to make sure that that history is retained and told.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:20 So thank you for that. But I also want to thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:24 It's been an honor for me to talk to you. It's been fun.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:28 And I wish we had more time. But again, just thank you for coming on,
00:48:28 --> 00:48:30 man, and doing what you're doing. I appreciate you.
00:48:30 --> 00:48:33 Hey, you can invite me back anytime, Erik. I appreciate you, man.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:39 Well, I'm glad you said that because every guest has an open invitation to come back.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:43 So if there's like, you know, something burning that you want to just reach
00:48:43 --> 00:48:47 out and I know Now I can reach out to you and I greatly appreciate that. Thank you.
00:48:47 --> 00:48:50 You got it. You got it, man. You have a great day.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:53 All right, sir. All right, guys, we'll catch y'all on the other side.
00:48:55 --> 00:49:14 Music.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:20 All right. And we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Kristin Couch.
00:49:21 --> 00:49:28 Kristin Couch, a licensed master social worker, currently works as the associate
00:49:28 --> 00:49:32 director in the Title IX and Compliance Office at Spelman College.
00:49:32 --> 00:49:35 She co-chairs the Fulton County Family Violence Task Force,
00:49:36 --> 00:49:41 is an advisory board member for the Survivors Home Initiative with United Way
00:49:41 --> 00:49:46 of Greater Atlanta's Regional Commission on Homelessness, and is a state expert
00:49:46 --> 00:49:50 committee member for sexual violence with the Criminal Justice Coordinating Council.
00:49:51 --> 00:49:57 In totality, Kristen has worked in the gender-based violence field for over 10 years.
00:49:57 --> 00:50:03 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:50:03 --> 00:50:06 on this podcast, Kristin Couch.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:18 Music.
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20 All right, Kristin Couch, how are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:50:21 --> 00:50:25 I'm doing well today. It feels like spring is trying to come a little early,
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28 and I welcome her with open arms.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:33 Well, I'm glad it's warmed up a little bit down here in Atlanta.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:35 This is the way I expected to be here.
00:50:35 --> 00:50:39 I grew up in Chicago, so this time of year is still cold.
00:50:41 --> 00:50:47 So I'm like, you know, I've been in the South now, God, 40 some years.
00:50:47 --> 00:50:55 I'm used to my winters being a lot milder than what I was growing up.
00:50:55 --> 00:50:57 So I greatly appreciate that.
00:50:59 --> 00:51:02 As we're recording today, this is supposed to be the boycott day.
00:51:02 --> 00:51:08 So I've kind of basically just bunkered down so I wouldn't spend any money.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:14 Me too. I had to prep. Somebody reminded me last night and I'm like,
00:51:14 --> 00:51:18 okay, I think I've prepped and I think I'm ready for it. Exactly. Yeah.
00:51:18 --> 00:51:22 So it's going to be interesting to see how that shakes out, what the report is.
00:51:24 --> 00:51:30 So I want to get into I reached out to you because you have a very unique job
00:51:30 --> 00:51:34 and I want to get into the details of that.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:40 But before I do that, I kind of do like this old counselor consulting in me,
00:51:40 --> 00:51:43 I guess, for lack of a better term, do some icebreakers.
00:51:44 --> 00:51:50 So the first icebreaker is a quote. And your quote is, you owe it to yourself
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 and everyone that loves you to never give up.
00:51:55 --> 00:51:56 What does that quote mean to you?
00:51:57 --> 00:51:59 Oh, that resonates so deeply.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:07 With the work that I do around gender-based violence, so that looks like various
00:52:07 --> 00:52:12 forms of, and trigger warning, sexual violence, relationship violence,
00:52:13 --> 00:52:15 stalking, and gender discrimination.
00:52:15 --> 00:52:18 I think about the people,
00:52:18 --> 00:52:24 the women in particular, and my family who have navigated those things and what
00:52:24 --> 00:52:28 that means in our family dynamics,
00:52:28 --> 00:52:33 what that means for them personally, but also what that means generationally
00:52:33 --> 00:52:39 and how those issues or matters may have shown up throughout our timelines in
00:52:39 --> 00:52:43 different ways and impacted decisions and life making.
00:52:43 --> 00:52:48 And, you know, the kind of partner that you choose, how you rear your children.
00:52:48 --> 00:52:54 And so that particular quote makes me think, keep going in this space because
00:52:54 --> 00:52:56 there's still a lot of work to do.
00:52:57 --> 00:53:01 And my ancestors are rooting for me so that way we can give them the best to
00:53:01 --> 00:53:06 demonstrate that we can do better than what we have been in prior history. Yeah.
00:53:08 --> 00:53:12 I need you to give me a number between one and twenty.
00:53:13 --> 00:53:20 Two. My favorite number is two. Oh, good. Well, my birthday is February 2nd, so keep that in mind.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 Thank you. Who was your favorite president of all time? and why?
00:53:30 --> 00:53:34 I don't think I really have one, to be quite honest with you.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:40 I would have said if I was younger, maybe Clinton,
00:53:40 --> 00:53:46 but that was the first president I remember, or the first president that I remember
00:53:46 --> 00:53:52 people having political discussions in my family about when I was coming up,
00:53:52 --> 00:53:58 and him and the conversations around him being adjacent to Blackness.
00:53:58 --> 00:54:00 I remember that the most.
00:54:01 --> 00:54:05 Maybe Obama, because that was the first time I was able to vote.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:11 That was the first experience. And I remember my dad being a super proud Black
00:54:11 --> 00:54:13 man and super into education.
00:54:14 --> 00:54:18 He was a first generation grad, he actually went to Morris Brown,
00:54:18 --> 00:54:26 and how his pride or just his enthusiasm around seeing someone who looked like
00:54:26 --> 00:54:27 him in that particular position.
00:54:28 --> 00:54:34 And I remember the celebrations around it, you know, the Jeezy music video,
00:54:34 --> 00:54:40 my president is Black, my Lambo is blue, being home or being able to stay home
00:54:40 --> 00:54:42 on his inauguration day.
00:54:43 --> 00:54:50 And also I hear a lot that I look or resemble some of his family members.
00:54:50 --> 00:54:53 I get that pretty often, which is hilarious to me.
00:54:54 --> 00:54:57 But if I were to pick one, I would say President Obama.
00:54:58 --> 00:55:01 Okay. So to date myself.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:08 Jimmy Carter was the first president that I actively paid attention to.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:14 I was, ever since I was like three years old, I was always intrigued by the
00:55:14 --> 00:55:15 president of the United States.
00:55:15 --> 00:55:18 I used to have these world book encyclopedias, right?
00:55:18 --> 00:55:22 And so the president spread was like two pages.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:28 The opening spread was two pages. So it had all the pictures of all the presidents up to that point.
00:55:28 --> 00:55:34 And that just fascinated me. And I think that's what triggered me to get into politics.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:42 But I remember Carter's convention, the 76 convention was like, wow, this is so cool.
00:55:42 --> 00:55:45 You know what I'm saying? And I didn't understand all the dynamics,
00:55:45 --> 00:55:51 but, you know, it was like I could feel that vibe, you know what I'm saying?
00:55:51 --> 00:55:55 Through the TV. And so that was that was pretty cool.
00:55:55 --> 00:56:00 And, you know, I aspired to get there, but I didn't. But, you know, it's OK.
00:56:00 --> 00:56:03 I landed pretty good. I did all right.
00:56:03 --> 00:56:11 But while you were voting for Obama, I was on the same ticket with him.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:13 I was running for the U.S.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:17 Senate that year in 2008 in Mississippi, of all places.
00:56:17 --> 00:56:24 But, yeah, I was on the same ballot. So, yeah, that was kind of an exciting time for me, too.
00:56:25 --> 00:56:30 So talk to the audience about your role, because you kind of touched on a little
00:56:30 --> 00:56:32 bit in your answer on the quote.
00:56:32 --> 00:56:36 What exactly is your role at Spelman College?
00:56:36 --> 00:56:40 So my role has changed,
00:56:40 --> 00:56:46 or at least things have evolved over the years, but primarily I oversee things
00:56:46 --> 00:56:52 related to direct services out of the Title IX and compliance office.
00:56:52 --> 00:56:56 And so that looks like if someone makes a report,
00:56:56 --> 00:57:03 if someone is wanting to understand what resources look like,
00:57:03 --> 00:57:08 potentially explore what a resolution process could look like under Title IX,
00:57:08 --> 00:57:16 but also just as a survivor or complainant, right, with using the language connected to Title IX.
00:57:16 --> 00:57:21 The complainant and the survivor are essentially the same. It's just different terminology.
00:57:21 --> 00:57:26 But I oversee direct services, case management.
00:57:27 --> 00:57:32 More recently, I started to manage training out of our office.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:37 And so meeting with different stakeholders on campus and even some external
00:57:37 --> 00:57:41 partners and doing some training with them, helping folks to understand how
00:57:41 --> 00:57:45 Title IX can serve them in times of need, what it looks like.
00:57:46 --> 00:57:52 What it means to have a Title IX office in your community, and also just what
00:57:52 --> 00:57:55 resources are available for folks.
00:57:55 --> 00:57:58 That's primarily the thing, particularly around gender-based violence.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:03 There's not always a trust with certain systems and processes.
00:58:03 --> 00:58:09 And so knowing that, being intentional about despite that, making sure that
00:58:09 --> 00:58:13 there's some type of resource available in the community, even if it doesn't
00:58:13 --> 00:58:15 reach our office, so to speak.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:20 Now we do have, once we get wind of something, we have an obligation to reach out.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:25 But the person who that we reach out to or that the report is about doesn't
00:58:25 --> 00:58:27 have to follow up with us if they don't want to.
00:58:27 --> 00:58:32 I like to think that we operate from a place where we don't want to re-victimize
00:58:32 --> 00:58:35 someone by making them make a choice.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:39 If their choice is not to engage with us, that should remain their choice.
00:58:39 --> 00:58:45 The only time we step in is if we notice that one individual is starting to
00:58:45 --> 00:58:48 show up in other individual cases, and this is starting to become a pattern,
00:58:49 --> 00:58:51 then we as an institution have
00:58:51 --> 00:58:56 to say, for the safety, we have to put some protective measures in place.
00:58:56 --> 00:58:59 But in the gist, that's about it for me.
00:59:00 --> 00:59:08 Yeah. So a lot of us, a lot of people have heard Title IX as related to sports,
00:59:08 --> 00:59:11 women's sports, And that's been a big issue.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 But Title IX is a lot bigger than that.
00:59:15 --> 00:59:26 So in your best Cliff Notes voice, kind of explain what Title IX actually is as far as federal law go.
00:59:27 --> 00:59:34 Sure. So Title IX is a federal law that says that any institution that's receiving
00:59:34 --> 00:59:39 federal funds from the government cannot discriminate based on sex.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 And that's pretty much it.
00:59:42 --> 00:59:47 And like, if you've read the definition of Title IX, I kind of summarize it in that way.
00:59:48 --> 00:59:54 But we know culturally, community-wise, that means so many different things.
00:59:54 --> 00:59:58 And even with the prior administration,
00:59:59 --> 01:00:03 them having conversations as it relates to gender, they expounded on that and
01:00:03 --> 01:00:09 even offering protections for folks who were experiencing discrimination in that way.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:15 But discrimination based on sex shows up in so many different ways.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:21 It impacts a lot of different populations on campus. It's literally...
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 You know, Title IX itself is targeting access.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:31 It's making sure that everyone has the same kind of access, despite what your sex is.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:35 So that's the athletics conversation, making sure that women who were interested
01:00:35 --> 01:00:40 in sports had the same abilities and access that men did, and making sure that
01:00:40 --> 01:00:44 those doors, if there was some type of discriminatory behavior happening.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:51 Setting the message nationally, universally, that that's not something that can be tolerated.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:56 And this will strip your funding if this is how you want to continue.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:01 Some institutions don't use federal funds and then they make their certain rules,
01:01:01 --> 01:01:03 certain things they do have to abide by.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:08 But there are some institutions who seek exclusion or exception under certain things.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:15 But it goes into the athletics. It goes into STEM programs and making sure that
01:01:15 --> 01:01:23 all genders have access to be able to enter that field or all those fields and engage.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:29 It also goes into pregnancy and parenting students and protecting their rights that way.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:32 Because sometimes even well-meaning folks might tell someone,
01:01:33 --> 01:01:38 or rather may have an attitude that a student who's pregnant shouldn't be in school.
01:01:39 --> 01:01:45 When in reality, this might be the avenue, the best avenue for the students
01:01:45 --> 01:01:49 to complete their education and learning so that way they can support their child.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:54 It also manifests with gender-based violence.
01:01:54 --> 01:02:00 And under Title IX regulations, sexual assault, violence, relationship violence,
01:02:00 --> 01:02:05 stalking, those things fall under, can be viewed as sexual harassment,
01:02:05 --> 01:02:06 and thus discrimination.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:10 And it's a whole host of different things to consider.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:15 What population, what kind of student gets access to this campus?
01:02:15 --> 01:02:19 What kind of restrictions can be given, right?
01:02:19 --> 01:02:24 Especially if you're looking at institutions who want to remain just women or
01:02:24 --> 01:02:29 just men, exploring what that means and what their admission policies look like.
01:02:30 --> 01:02:36 And of course, Title IX can sometimes be viewed as this space of,
01:02:36 --> 01:02:38 it's just there to protect the institution.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:44 And unfortunately, Title IX sometimes gets that rep for various reasons,
01:02:44 --> 01:02:45 sometimes valid reasons.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:53 But I think Title IX, or Title IX administrators do the minimum when it's just
01:02:53 --> 01:02:54 about protecting the institution.
01:02:54 --> 01:03:02 You may only be limited to just exploring resolution options and making sure that the campus is safe.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:06 But I think going beyond that and making sure that the survivor and even the
01:03:06 --> 01:03:12 respondent has the resources that they need while they're navigating a process.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:16 But even if they're not navigating a process, how are you connecting with your
01:03:16 --> 01:03:20 community to ensure that they know where these resources are?
01:03:21 --> 01:03:26 Title IX is also about equity. So whatever is given, whatever rights are given
01:03:26 --> 01:03:29 to a complainant must also be extended to the respondent or the person who's
01:03:29 --> 01:03:31 been alleged to cause harm.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:38 And sometimes there's opportunity for resources to be given to a respondent,
01:03:38 --> 01:03:41 for a respondent to explore, especially if something's been found,
01:03:42 --> 01:03:43 like if they've been found responsible.
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 And sometimes I wonder if we're meeting that mark as administrators,
01:03:48 --> 01:03:51 making sure that everyone has the resources,
01:03:51 --> 01:03:57 because regardless of some harm is taking place and two students or faculty
01:03:57 --> 01:04:03 or staff are going to walk away from the situation being impacted regardless
01:04:03 --> 01:04:08 of how the outcome of the process came. So what are some resources?
01:04:09 --> 01:04:15 What's the community around Title IX? How does Title IX show up in this particular
01:04:15 --> 01:04:20 college's community to make sure everybody has what they need in order to heal
01:04:20 --> 01:04:24 and move forward in a more healthier way? Yeah.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:32 So what is your biggest or I don't know if I want to change it to unique,
01:04:32 --> 01:04:38 but what is your biggest challenge you face doing what you do at an all-female college?
01:04:38 --> 01:04:48 And there's a few challenges, but I think sometimes people,
01:04:48 --> 01:04:54 because sometimes people come in thinking that this is an all-women's institution,
01:04:54 --> 01:04:57 that there's no really way of harm.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:02 There's no opportunity for that to occur, but that's not the case, right?
01:05:02 --> 01:05:08 And no matter how many layers of protection that we might do externally,
01:05:09 --> 01:05:14 I don't know if we always do enough work internally, preparing our students
01:05:14 --> 01:05:21 to engage in the world in which there is sex, in which there are relationships, relationships.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:26 In which there is harm that can take place in both of these things.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:33 Sometimes we're having conversations with students about consent for the very
01:05:33 --> 01:05:35 first time after something has been reported.
01:05:35 --> 01:05:39 And that's the first time that they're getting to understand what consent is
01:05:39 --> 01:05:42 and that it can be revoked at any given time.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:50 Sometimes it's victim blaming. And I think people coming to different understandings
01:05:50 --> 01:05:53 about how certain things happen.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 And I think that sometimes that comes from a place of fear.
01:05:57 --> 01:06:01 You know, the questions, you know, why did you wear this? Or you shouldn't have
01:06:01 --> 01:06:05 gone over there. Or you shouldn't have been doing this at this party.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:07 Why were you doing such a thing?
01:06:07 --> 01:06:11 And this happened because you were doing those things. And I say that it comes
01:06:11 --> 01:06:14 from fear because we're trying to tell ourselves that this can't happen to us.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:19 And what the reality is, if somebody makes a decision to cause harm,
01:06:19 --> 01:06:23 that's their decision. And there's not really much that we can do based on that
01:06:23 --> 01:06:28 decision. And that can be frustrating sometimes.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:35 Sometimes we're all coming to the table with different understanding of consent and relationships.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:40 And sometimes it's just a matter of having some uncomfortable conversations.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:46 But I do think that those that we work with do want to understand and do want
01:06:46 --> 01:06:51 to create a safe space for the learning and working environment.
01:06:52 --> 01:06:59 But just giving it some time, this stuff has been around for a really long time.
01:06:59 --> 01:07:02 And I do think, though,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:07 even as we're seeing different things change with this new administration,
01:07:07 --> 01:07:14 I don't want us to become helpless in thinking that policies and procedures are the end-all be-all.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:20 Yes, they do have a heavy influence on regulations and policies,
01:07:20 --> 01:07:25 all those things coming down to the everyday man, everyday person.
01:07:25 --> 01:07:32 However, I do see that we have opportunity to develop healthier social norms.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:36 What's going on in our communities that these things are happening?
01:07:37 --> 01:07:40 What's being normalized that promote violence?
01:07:41 --> 01:07:45 What are some things that are normalized that say that that's none of our business?
01:07:45 --> 01:07:47 We're not involved, so we shouldn't say anything.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:53 And challenging those things is just going to have to take time.
01:07:53 --> 01:07:55 And we all have to be patient with that.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:00 But we all do have a part to play in ending gender-based violence.
01:08:00 --> 01:08:03 And we can do that by challenging our social norms.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:06 So that's a part of the challenge for sure. Yeah.
01:08:08 --> 01:08:13 So one of the things I know that has been an issue is.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:22 Has been dealing with sexual harassment and assault on campus being reported, right?
01:08:24 --> 01:08:28 I worked in law enforcement, so we had to go through training to deal with it
01:08:28 --> 01:08:30 in the correctional facilities, right?
01:08:31 --> 01:08:36 We had to watch a video like every year, you know, and there would be some updates and stuff.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:40 So it was like, that's what we'd be trying to get to the updates instead of the same old video.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:49 But seriously, though, it was like, you know, that's always been a challenge,
01:08:50 --> 01:08:56 to get folks who have been victims to come forward.
01:08:56 --> 01:08:59 And it was really, really egregious.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:03 The only other place that was more egregious was the military as far as college
01:09:03 --> 01:09:06 campuses were concerned as far as people reporting.
01:09:07 --> 01:09:16 So you being in that position and kind of, I'm sure you network with other counterparts
01:09:16 --> 01:09:17 throughout the country,
01:09:17 --> 01:09:23 is that getting better or is it still hard to get people to come forward?
01:09:24 --> 01:09:32 I think it's about 50-50. I think there's still that challenge of people wanting to come to report.
01:09:33 --> 01:09:38 And even now with those, the numbers that we do have who are reporting,
01:09:38 --> 01:09:42 we can almost always assume that that number is higher just because we know
01:09:42 --> 01:09:46 people aren't comfortable coming forward and to report.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:51 And I think that comes with a few things.
01:09:51 --> 01:09:57 One, folks not really knowing what's available to them and then not always being
01:09:57 --> 01:10:00 at the forefront of people's minds.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:05 Something that we try to do is like right at the gate, new student orientation,
01:10:05 --> 01:10:06 we want to be right there.
01:10:06 --> 01:10:11 We want to be a part of all the programming at possible, even if it's just a few minutes.
01:10:11 --> 01:10:15 Hey, this is what we do. At least you know our face if something happens.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:23 I think the other thing is there is a lack of trust in systems and reporting.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:28 And I think that's on a macro level scale. I think that's society-wide.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:31 People having concern with reporting to law enforcement,
01:10:32 --> 01:10:37 even people having concern reporting to Title IX offices at their institutions,
01:10:38 --> 01:10:45 trusting that what's going to happen or what you can expect to happen does happen.
01:10:46 --> 01:10:52 Or rather, being able to trust an entity with this really intimate information,
01:10:53 --> 01:10:59 this really personal experience and not having it be shared across campus.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:05 Having administrators who know how to hold it, who know how to facilitate conversations
01:11:05 --> 01:11:13 with other people and maintain that privacy and then not just be like talking fodder, right?
01:11:13 --> 01:11:16 Especially if you're at a small institution.
01:11:16 --> 01:11:20 One of the primary concerns is that if I tell somebody it's just going to get
01:11:20 --> 01:11:23 around and then what's that going to do for my social standing?
01:11:23 --> 01:11:28 What is it going to do for my support system? And sometimes when people do report,
01:11:29 --> 01:11:33 even if they're encouraged by friends in the beginning, as time goes on,
01:11:33 --> 01:11:35 sometimes that support just wanes.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:40 And then the person is still standing there navigating a process all by themselves.
01:11:40 --> 01:11:42 And that's really isolating.
01:11:42 --> 01:11:47 And then even what happens after, right? Just so many things change.
01:11:48 --> 01:11:55 The other thing I would say is, I do think people are starting to understand
01:11:55 --> 01:11:59 what various things can be reported or how it impacts them.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:07 Sometimes folks aren't always able to see that this is what this,
01:12:07 --> 01:12:11 especially with things like stalking. That's a repeated pattern of behavior.
01:12:11 --> 01:12:14 You're not going to see that potentially at least until the second time that
01:12:14 --> 01:12:17 something strange or out-putting happens.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:25 And not really knowing because society doesn't talk about how these things are not okay.
01:12:25 --> 01:12:31 Or rather, sometimes society even promotes these things, whether it's in song
01:12:31 --> 01:12:34 lyrics, whether it's, you know, just in pop culture,
01:12:35 --> 01:12:41 some of the conversation that we're seeing celebrities or popular people talk about these things.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:48 So it's important for those of us who do this work to be visible, however that looks.
01:12:48 --> 01:12:53 And what we find is that the more visible we are, the more trust that people
01:12:53 --> 01:12:58 have, especially when they have the opportunity to just engage with us one-on-one,
01:12:58 --> 01:13:02 not after when something happens. Yeah.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:07 Developing that rapport, developing that relationship lends to that trust.
01:13:07 --> 01:13:12 And then people feel a little bit more comfortable, even if they don't fully want to rapport.
01:13:12 --> 01:13:16 They just want to talk with you about what happened and even just sharing with them the resources.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:22 Not pushing people to do certain things is really ideal.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:26 You want to empower folks to make choices on their own.
01:13:26 --> 01:13:33 Even, and I say this with love, even with our, with like our culture,
01:13:33 --> 01:13:37 especially within HBCUs, like we have students who come to us,
01:13:37 --> 01:13:42 even if we're not their professor or we're working with them directly on academics,
01:13:42 --> 01:13:46 but they found comfort with you and now you're their person, which is great.
01:13:46 --> 01:13:54 We also have to be mindful that these are still young adults and they're navigating the world.
01:13:54 --> 01:13:58 And what we might think is best for them, they have to make that decision.
01:13:59 --> 01:14:02 We can't push that on them. We can't sway them anyway.
01:14:02 --> 01:14:07 And even if we've had our own experiences with some things in the past,
01:14:08 --> 01:14:11 let's give our young folks a chance to explore what's the best route of healing
01:14:11 --> 01:14:17 for them and talking with them about that and empowering them to navigate their
01:14:17 --> 01:14:21 healing in that way with our support, with our guidance. But they've got to
01:14:21 --> 01:14:22 be the one to make that choice.
01:14:23 --> 01:14:28 Do you feel that you have an advantage compared to some of your counterparts
01:14:28 --> 01:14:30 because of your social work background?
01:14:31 --> 01:14:36 I do. I may have a bias because I think social workers save the world. I just do.
01:14:37 --> 01:14:42 Even our, and shout out to Paula Dobbs. She's our assistant director in our office.
01:14:42 --> 01:14:48 She is a licensed clinical social worker and she's super creative. She does.
01:14:48 --> 01:14:53 She's over our outreach initiatives and she's great at connecting something
01:14:53 --> 01:14:57 that's going on currently in the culture and tying it into our conversations.
01:14:57 --> 01:15:04 But having that lens of the whole picture before you decide how to go about
01:15:04 --> 01:15:08 an intervention can really save folks from some damage.
01:15:08 --> 01:15:14 And I do think that identifying the problem is one thing, but again,
01:15:14 --> 01:15:19 what's going on around the problem, that's promoting it, supporting it, and even expanding it.
01:15:19 --> 01:15:25 And then going, exploring that, but then having the ability to use that to inform
01:15:25 --> 01:15:29 what you want to do next. Does this look like a panel discussion?
01:15:29 --> 01:15:31 Does this look like we need to do a training?
01:15:32 --> 01:15:36 Does this look like we need to have a one-on-one conversation with this individual,
01:15:36 --> 01:15:41 despite them having personal issues at home because they keep showing up in a problematic way.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:49 I do think that that social work lens really helps to be specific about what
01:15:49 --> 01:15:55 needs to be done or expand on what the problem is and then targeting how you
01:15:55 --> 01:15:57 want to go about fixing that problem. Yeah.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:04 So what impact would losing the U.S.
01:16:04 --> 01:16:12 Department of Education have on Title IX compliance? What it sounds like to
01:16:12 --> 01:16:19 me is if that is cut, then certain things would be determined by the state.
01:16:20 --> 01:16:27 And depending on what side of the country you're on, that can be informed by different attitudes.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:30 And it can
01:16:30 --> 01:16:33 be an interest it's an interesting time we're
01:16:33 --> 01:16:36 actually exploring and title nine administrators
01:16:36 --> 01:16:39 all over are exploring how to
01:16:39 --> 01:16:45 still go about being there for the folks that are discriminated against based
01:16:45 --> 01:16:53 on gender even if it's not explicitly sex right and And it's really challenging
01:16:53 --> 01:16:56 us to be creative in how we show up for our communities.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:03 But I would say even in the face of that and making those hard decisions,
01:17:03 --> 01:17:09 institutions still have an ability to decide what their values are and if they
01:17:09 --> 01:17:11 want to stand on those or not.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:14 And being creative in how you show up in your community.
01:17:15 --> 01:17:19 It's not going to be, I say it's not going to be the easiest road because it's
01:17:19 --> 01:17:24 still really early. And we're still like, what fires are we going to have to
01:17:24 --> 01:17:25 put out? And I'll tell you.
01:17:26 --> 01:17:31 We've been in an interesting position because Georgia filed an injunction when
01:17:31 --> 01:17:38 the Biden administration submitted or published the 2024 Title IX regulations.
01:17:38 --> 01:17:44 And so what that meant was while the injunction was filed, we still have to
01:17:44 --> 01:17:49 operate under the 2020 Title IX regulations, which were given by this current
01:17:49 --> 01:17:52 administration previously when they were in office.
01:17:52 --> 01:17:56 So not terribly much has changed on our end.
01:17:56 --> 01:18:01 Now we were kind of like, which way are y'all going to go with this when the
01:18:01 --> 01:18:02 new regulations came out?
01:18:03 --> 01:18:09 But a lot of institutions, most if not all, who are going to be receiving federal
01:18:09 --> 01:18:17 funds have to now go back to the 2020 regulations. And that was really controversial at the time.
01:18:18 --> 01:18:27 Some argue that the 2020 regulations are more respondent-leaning as far as their rights.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:34 So, for example, there was a while back, there were conversations around if
01:18:34 --> 01:18:38 students wanted to, or people wanted to engage in the Title IX process,
01:18:38 --> 01:18:41 they had to be involved with it fully.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:44 So the investigation, the hearing, all those things.
01:18:45 --> 01:18:52 The tricky part was when they said that they wanted to do cross-examination via advisors.
01:18:53 --> 01:18:59 So students or whomever would have an advisor and they would do cross-examination via the advisor.
01:18:59 --> 01:19:05 So the advisor of the other party is asking questions of the other party's student. And...
01:19:07 --> 01:19:13 While due rights, right, is the, I don't want to be snarky here.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:20 Sometimes due rights, men's due rights or due process is presented as,
01:19:20 --> 01:19:24 you know, we're just trying to be equitable. We want to make sure that everybody's rights are heard.
01:19:25 --> 01:19:29 Sounds valid at the surface, but sometimes I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge
01:19:29 --> 01:19:33 that sometimes the conversation around due rights, particularly under Title
01:19:33 --> 01:19:36 IX, is more about respondent rights.
01:19:37 --> 01:19:39 And men's rights, to be specific.
01:19:40 --> 01:19:45 And so the proposal initially was, if you didn't engage in cross-examination,
01:19:46 --> 01:19:51 then whatever you said prior is not included in the determination.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:55 So you've done the investigation, you've met with the investigator,
01:19:55 --> 01:19:58 you get to the hearing, and you don't want to do a cross-examination.
01:19:59 --> 01:20:02 Whatever you said prior was not going to be taken or not going to be included
01:20:02 --> 01:20:05 into the determination of the outcome.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:11 And a lot of advocates, and rightfully so, said that's not trauma-informed and it's not really fair.
01:20:12 --> 01:20:17 So under the Comstock, there was a law that was shared or a judge said that
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 actually this is in violation. We can't actually do that.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:25 And so moving forward, that has not been the lay of the land.
01:20:25 --> 01:20:28 And me and myself, I'm pretty happy about that.
01:20:29 --> 01:20:33 What I get nervous about is everybody should have rights. Everybody's rights
01:20:33 --> 01:20:36 should be protected, especially with these things.
01:20:36 --> 01:20:42 But we don't want to get so far away from the fact that there's been harm here
01:20:42 --> 01:20:48 on a very intimate level. And trauma, you have to be trauma-informed in these approaches.
01:20:48 --> 01:20:51 And we always tell our students, this is not a legal process.
01:20:52 --> 01:20:57 And it isn't. These things can run parallel to each other, meaning Title IX
01:20:57 --> 01:21:01 and a criminal proceeding, but they don't overlap. Right.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:06 But we keep saying that this isn't a criminal process, but the more that we
01:21:06 --> 01:21:11 make it look like a criminal process, the more that people are going to be reluctant
01:21:11 --> 01:21:17 to engage with us, period, and reluctant to engage. And then what?
01:21:18 --> 01:21:23 What are we saying as a community? What's the message that we're sending behind
01:21:23 --> 01:21:33 this? And it can be really challenging to share, especially with a young student.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:36 Here's what we can offer. Here's what this can look like.
01:21:36 --> 01:21:41 And trying to give them all the pictures so that way they can make the best decision.
01:21:42 --> 01:21:49 And sometimes it takes so long or sometimes the process just seems so daunting
01:21:49 --> 01:21:53 that they're exhausted before we get to the end of it and then they feel defeated from that.
01:21:55 --> 01:22:00 And while Title IX, again, is about equity, both complaining and the respondent
01:22:00 --> 01:22:02 and even witnesses that are involved,
01:22:02 --> 01:22:08 I do have concern and I'm sure a lot of institutions have concern around the
01:22:08 --> 01:22:13 trauma-informed peace that's being considered or when and if it's being considered
01:22:13 --> 01:22:17 when these policies are being created and put into place.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:27 Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that you're highlighting is input, right?
01:22:27 --> 01:22:32 So, one of the things that, you know, as a legislator, you know,
01:22:32 --> 01:22:34 we used to look forward to was hearings.
01:22:35 --> 01:22:38 And some people would think, you know, that's got to be boring.
01:22:39 --> 01:22:45 And in Mississippi, we didn't necessarily have to have a committee or be a committee
01:22:45 --> 01:22:46 chair to conduct a hearing.
01:22:46 --> 01:22:52 If you were a member of the legislature, you could conduct a hearing on an issue
01:22:52 --> 01:22:55 you want to introduce legislation on or wherever the case may be.
01:22:56 --> 01:23:04 And, you know, the power of the hearing is that you have either you or if you
01:23:04 --> 01:23:08 have other colleagues that want to attend, they can they can ask questions.
01:23:08 --> 01:23:14 But you're getting people from all sides to talk about the impact of what you want to do. Right.
01:23:15 --> 01:23:21 And, you know, well, that's that that's going to lead into a commentary and all that stuff.
01:23:21 --> 01:23:25 I know we ain't got that much time, but I just, you know, just listening to
01:23:25 --> 01:23:33 you, I already have in my mind that nobody has talked to the administration.
01:23:34 --> 01:23:38 Nobody really probably talked to the Georgia legislature when they tried to
01:23:38 --> 01:23:45 order Georgia government when they tried to stop what President Biden tried to do.
01:23:45 --> 01:23:48 It just was like, we're going to do this thing.
01:23:49 --> 01:23:54 This is our political belief and blah, blah. instead of like making an informed decision.
01:23:54 --> 01:23:57 So I just, thank you for that.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:03 Thank you for that. That really highlights something that has a concern.
01:24:03 --> 01:24:07 All right, so this is gonna be my last question and it's gonna be about something
01:24:07 --> 01:24:14 that you do, I guess on your volunteer time and that's dealing with homelessness.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:20 So homelessness in America rose 18% over the last year.
01:24:21 --> 01:24:26 It is, according to HUD, they believe homelessness is increased due to a shortage
01:24:26 --> 01:24:29 of affordable housing and rising cost of living.
01:24:30 --> 01:24:35 California has the highest percentage of unsheltered homeless people in the United States.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:40 Black and Native American people are more likely to be homeless than any other
01:24:40 --> 01:24:42 racial and ethnic group.
01:24:42 --> 01:24:48 And men and veterans also have higher rates of homelessness than the U.S. average.
01:24:49 --> 01:24:54 So in your work, because you're on an advisory board, I believe, that deals with that.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:02 What can be done or what would you like to see done to alleviate the situation here in Atlanta?
01:25:02 --> 01:25:06 I'm not trying to get you to solve the national problem, but since you're from
01:25:06 --> 01:25:12 here, you live here, you work here, what would you like to see done in Atlanta?
01:25:12 --> 01:25:19 Because it's very glaring here. And one stat that I didn't cite on that one is that,
01:25:19 --> 01:25:25 and it blew me away, and I found this out when, I guess, when Mayor Bottoms,
01:25:25 --> 01:25:31 when she ran for mayor, because it came up, that the biggest wealth gap in the
01:25:31 --> 01:25:34 United States amongst Black people is here in Atlanta.
01:25:35 --> 01:25:41 And so I'm like, OK, so sounds like that whoever the mayor is and the council,
01:25:41 --> 01:25:45 that needs to be the focus that they need to start narrowing.
01:25:46 --> 01:25:49 Because if this is supposed to be the black mecca, right, right,
01:25:49 --> 01:25:55 then it seems like the wealth gap should be a little more equitable here compared to other unions.
01:25:56 --> 01:26:02 Majority black cities. So, and housing definitely plays a part in that wealth gap.
01:26:02 --> 01:26:07 So just, you know, what would you like to see happen?
01:26:08 --> 01:26:15 The first thing that comes to my mind is that we change our attitude about poverty here in the South.
01:26:16 --> 01:26:21 I think the attitude around poverty, you know, it's something that is earned.
01:26:22 --> 01:26:27 That is something that people somehow they deserve being unhoused.
01:26:28 --> 01:26:34 Somehow they deserve to be out in the really, really cold winter, not have any food.
01:26:34 --> 01:26:37 There was something that they did, some decision that they make,
01:26:37 --> 01:26:43 somebody that they wronged, and that this is something that they've chosen,
01:26:43 --> 01:26:46 essentially, unless they should be left to deal with it.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:51 And I think in some ways that attitude, again
01:26:51 --> 01:26:56 going back to that fear somehow tries to protect ourselves like that could never
01:26:56 --> 01:27:03 be us but now more than ever that can be anybody and it's not about if somebody
01:27:03 --> 01:27:08 deserved poverty or that they did something wrong and that was a misstep poverty
01:27:08 --> 01:27:11 is a very real circumstance in
01:27:11 --> 01:27:17 any given in atlanta in new york cali and in any country poverty is very is
01:27:17 --> 01:27:20 very prevalent And unfortunately,
01:27:20 --> 01:27:27 I think that fear of trying to protect oneself makes things easy to dismiss.
01:27:27 --> 01:27:32 It's not my problem because they chose that, right?
01:27:32 --> 01:27:38 And it's almost like it gets us off the hook from doing something about it.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:41 And unfortunately, that's just not the case.
01:27:42 --> 01:27:48 With health care being what it is, as expensive as it is, you get sick one good
01:27:48 --> 01:27:52 time and that can be the end of everything. You lose your job one good time.
01:27:53 --> 01:28:00 The job market right now is crazy in that there are jobs being posted with sometimes
01:28:00 --> 01:28:02 no intention of actually hiring folks.
01:28:02 --> 01:28:06 And that's hard, especially for,
01:28:07 --> 01:28:10 well, that takes us to another separate conversation, but that's hard.
01:28:11 --> 01:28:14 And, you know, even before coming to.
01:28:15 --> 01:28:20 Before getting into higher ed, I worked in nonprofit and safe houses.
01:28:20 --> 01:28:28 And I remember when Pine Street closed, the homelessness shelter,
01:28:28 --> 01:28:34 and the impact that it had immediately in Atlanta, especially for us.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:37 Because oftentimes women, in
01:28:37 --> 01:28:41 particular, women and children are unhoused related to domestic violence.
01:28:42 --> 01:28:47 And I even have a colleague who's also a social worker.
01:28:47 --> 01:28:52 He actually does or is working now in guaranteed income programs and trying
01:28:52 --> 01:28:55 to expound on that in Atlanta.
01:28:56 --> 01:29:01 And that being a relatively new concept in the South, because why are you guaranteed
01:29:01 --> 01:29:03 income? You need to work for this.
01:29:03 --> 01:29:05 And if you don't work for this, you deserve whatever happens.
01:29:05 --> 01:29:07 It's a separate conversation.
01:29:08 --> 01:29:13 But what it did for us in our economy is that we started seeing more people
01:29:13 --> 01:29:18 who were just homeless or unhoused trying to utilize safe house services.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:25 And thus, that means less people who are actively fleeing from a violent situation
01:29:25 --> 01:29:28 get access or have the ability to come into that safe house.
01:29:29 --> 01:29:35 And then there's just people who don't really have anywhere to go around in
01:29:35 --> 01:29:37 the area trying to get some support.
01:29:37 --> 01:29:41 And so what does that mean for the safety of the area? What does that mean for
01:29:41 --> 01:29:47 the safety of them as well, especially if they have some type of mental health concern?
01:29:47 --> 01:29:51 And instead of driving by and just leaving people to their own devices,
01:29:52 --> 01:29:55 what are some resources that are available for this individual?
01:29:57 --> 01:30:04 I think it first starts with the attitude that we all need one another and that
01:30:04 --> 01:30:08 poverty is not something that someone earns. These are things that happen.
01:30:09 --> 01:30:13 And I think addressing that idea starts with empathy.
01:30:14 --> 01:30:18 And unfortunately, even what we're seeing politically now, maybe even after,
01:30:18 --> 01:30:24 you know, the incoming or the new administration is that if it's not happening
01:30:24 --> 01:30:28 close to home, it's almost as if you don't deal with it.
01:30:28 --> 01:30:31 If it's not happening to someone you know, someone that you care about,
01:30:32 --> 01:30:35 you don't really see it as a problem until it knocks on your doorstep.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:40 But if we all do that, if we all just act like nothing's really our problem,
01:30:40 --> 01:30:44 then everything becomes our problem because everybody's impacted.
01:30:44 --> 01:30:47 I would love to see more community thought.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:51 I would like to see that attitude change. And I mean, you mentioned Mississippi.
01:30:51 --> 01:30:55 I can only imagine how that looks in Mississippi, in various cities.
01:30:55 --> 01:31:04 And until we get there, I don't know if we'll have a more comprehensive and
01:31:04 --> 01:31:07 inclusive approach to addressing homelessness in Atlanta.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:11 We've still got some work to do internally before we can even start addressing
01:31:11 --> 01:31:14 externally, in my opinion. Yeah.
01:31:15 --> 01:31:19 Well, Kristin Couch, I'm going to have to let you go.
01:31:19 --> 01:31:22 We have definitely maximized our time.
01:31:23 --> 01:31:29 But I enjoyed having this conversation with you because I think it's important
01:31:29 --> 01:31:34 for people to understand that sense of community you talk about.
01:31:34 --> 01:31:40 And a lot of the things that you are doing helps build that community,
01:31:40 --> 01:31:43 not just on campus, but off campus as well.
01:31:43 --> 01:31:46 And I greatly appreciate what you do.
01:31:47 --> 01:31:50 And I greatly appreciate you taking the time to come out.
01:31:51 --> 01:31:55 If I was in a situation, I might feel comfortable talking to you.
01:31:55 --> 01:31:59 You seem like a person that will listen and kind of get me in the right direction.
01:31:59 --> 01:32:04 And I hope that the young ladies at Spelman feel the same way that I do.
01:32:04 --> 01:32:09 That means a lot. Thank you. Yes, ma'am. So if people want to talk to you,
01:32:09 --> 01:32:12 if people want to reach out to you, how could they do that?
01:32:13 --> 01:32:17 I can be found on LinkedIn, Kristin Couch, LMSW.
01:32:18 --> 01:32:20 I'm easily accessible there.
01:32:21 --> 01:32:26 Okay. All right. Well, Kristin Couch, again, thank you for coming on the podcast.
01:32:26 --> 01:32:29 I greatly appreciate you taking the time to have this discussion.
01:32:30 --> 01:32:32 Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
01:32:32 --> 01:32:35 All right, guys. and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:32:37 --> 01:32:47 Music.
01:32:47 --> 01:32:57 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Kevin Hymel and Kristin Couch for coming on.
01:32:58 --> 01:33:04 How cool was that to hear Kevin's story, right?
01:33:04 --> 01:33:12 How an article that he wrote became a major motion picture that Tyler Perry wrote and directed.
01:33:13 --> 01:33:23 Awesome, right? And it's a story about us, black folk, that did some incredible things, right?
01:33:24 --> 01:33:33 And as I stated in the interview, you know, our story is part of the American story, period.
01:33:33 --> 01:33:42 No matter how folks try to whitewash it and, you know, try to tell alternate
01:33:42 --> 01:33:44 facts and all those stuff.
01:33:45 --> 01:33:50 Reality is, is that you can't erase us and our contributions.
01:33:51 --> 01:33:57 Some way, some way, somehow, right? The story is going to be told.
01:33:59 --> 01:34:02 And the more that stories are told,
01:34:03 --> 01:34:10 regardless of who the storyteller is, the more people will realize why America
01:34:10 --> 01:34:18 is what it is and the potential of what it could be if we just embraced the
01:34:18 --> 01:34:21 contributions that we all have made. Right.
01:34:22 --> 01:34:31 And then Ms. Couch, very impressive sister, very impressive sister.
01:34:32 --> 01:34:39 And I would, you know, if I was a student at Spelman, I would would really,
01:34:39 --> 01:34:46 really feel comfortable trusting her to make sure that the right thing is done. Right.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:53 And not just her being a champion and protecting the rights of students there,
01:34:53 --> 01:34:57 but the work that she's doing out in the community, dealing with homelessness,
01:34:58 --> 01:35:00 dealing with domestic violence, all that stuff.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:07 Yeah, she, both of my guests, and you've heard me say this many,
01:35:07 --> 01:35:13 many times, but this is the reason why I do the podcast, other than therapy for me.
01:35:14 --> 01:35:21 They're the reason why I do this, because, you know, it just highlights that
01:35:21 --> 01:35:27 there are good people out here doing the work that needs to be done.
01:35:28 --> 01:35:34 But it also, her interview brought up something that is really,
01:35:34 --> 01:35:40 really a lost art as far as where our politics is, right?
01:35:43 --> 01:35:49 So I know a lot of people, when y'all watch the news and y'all watch these congressional hearings,
01:35:49 --> 01:35:58 and basically most of y'all are just watching to see who did a clap back on who, right?
01:35:59 --> 01:36:02 But that's not what hearings are supposed to be about.
01:36:02 --> 01:36:07 When I was growing up, yes, I'm old enough to say that phrase.
01:36:07 --> 01:36:17 When I was growing up, hearings were drama in the testimony, right?
01:36:17 --> 01:36:19 What the people...
01:36:20 --> 01:36:23 Were actually testifying to Congress about.
01:36:24 --> 01:36:28 The stars of the show were not the congressional members,
01:36:28 --> 01:36:33 but the witnesses that were testifying, whether it was about the mafia,
01:36:34 --> 01:36:39 whether it was about communism, whether it was about keeping a hospital open,
01:36:39 --> 01:36:42 which I had to do, by the way. It didn't matter.
01:36:43 --> 01:36:49 It was like the compelling moment was when that witness testified.
01:36:50 --> 01:36:57 Not the antics of the members of Congress, not the fights that they got into, not the back and forth.
01:36:57 --> 01:37:02 It was the witness answering questions, giving testimony.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:05 That was the highlight.
01:37:05 --> 01:37:12 And the American people learned something from those witnesses, right?
01:37:12 --> 01:37:18 They made the news story. They shaped a policy one way or the other.
01:37:19 --> 01:37:23 Now, you did have rigged committees.
01:37:24 --> 01:37:28 I mean, that's ever since they've been doing congressional hearings,
01:37:28 --> 01:37:31 you know, there's been rigged ones.
01:37:32 --> 01:37:35 You know, the whole McCarthy era stuff, right?
01:37:35 --> 01:37:40 If you don't know what that is, look that up. But, you know,
01:37:40 --> 01:37:43 but it was still compelling,
01:37:43 --> 01:37:50 even when you knew that it was rigged, to watch the witnesses do their thing.
01:37:50 --> 01:37:56 Now, we get that with the nominees for cabinet positions of the Supreme Court,
01:37:56 --> 01:38:04 but it used to be on real issues that were happening in the nation or real crises
01:38:04 --> 01:38:05 that were happening in the nation.
01:38:05 --> 01:38:11 And in the hearings that I participated in as a state legislator,
01:38:11 --> 01:38:14 they were informative, right?
01:38:14 --> 01:38:16 It was like...
01:38:17 --> 01:38:22 You know, now, again, you had the members participate,
01:38:22 --> 01:38:29 but it was whatever ire or concern was directed toward the person testifying,
01:38:29 --> 01:38:32 it wasn't toward other members, right?
01:38:33 --> 01:38:42 I remember me and a gentleman from Coahoma County, John Mayo,
01:38:42 --> 01:38:48 we had introduced legislation to end the death penalty in the state of Mississippi.
01:38:54 --> 01:38:59 And we had raised enough sand between the two of us and the groups that were
01:38:59 --> 01:39:05 behind us that we forced a judiciary in-bank committee.
01:39:06 --> 01:39:10 So in Mississippi, in the House of Representatives, you have two judiciary committees.
01:39:10 --> 01:39:16 You have Judiciary A and Judiciary B, and a lot of states do that.
01:39:16 --> 01:39:24 One committee handles civil penalties, and then one committee handles criminal penalties, right?
01:39:25 --> 01:39:27 That's kind of the nuance why it's separated.
01:39:28 --> 01:39:33 But every now and then, there would be legislation where the two committees
01:39:33 --> 01:39:37 would meet as one big committee, and that was called judiciary and bank.
01:39:39 --> 01:39:45 And the death penalty was one of those issues that forced that committee to convene.
01:39:48 --> 01:39:56 And we had people coming and testifying about the death penalty,
01:39:57 --> 01:40:00 people that were against it and people that were for it.
01:40:00 --> 01:40:06 The main person that testified in favor of it was the assistant attorney general
01:40:06 --> 01:40:11 for the state of Mississippi that handled the death penalty cases in court,
01:40:11 --> 01:40:16 And he would always go up against, you know,
01:40:16 --> 01:40:21 the lawyers that were supporting, you know, the lawyers.
01:40:21 --> 01:40:25 People that were convicted of the death penalty trying to commute their sentence
01:40:25 --> 01:40:30 or get the conviction overturned or delay the execution or whatever.
01:40:32 --> 01:40:38 So he, he was a little jaded to say the least. He was, he had his,
01:40:38 --> 01:40:41 he, he always had his armor on. Let's put it that way.
01:40:42 --> 01:40:48 I can't remember the guy's name now, which is kind of interesting because we
01:40:48 --> 01:40:51 had, he and I had a confrontation.
01:40:52 --> 01:40:58 And he was offended. It was pretty obvious he was offended that this legislation
01:40:58 --> 01:41:06 was stirring up this kind of interest because he was in favor of the death penalty.
01:41:06 --> 01:41:09 He enjoyed making sure that those executions went through.
01:41:10 --> 01:41:14 So you could tell he was a little miffed that he had to actually testify about
01:41:14 --> 01:41:17 the validity of maintaining the death penalty in Mississippi.
01:41:18 --> 01:41:23 And he, in his remarks, I keep wanting to say his name was white.
01:41:25 --> 01:41:28 No, don't don't judge me. I think that was really his name, but I might be wrong.
01:41:28 --> 01:41:34 I don't know. But anyway, he, in his remarks,
01:41:34 --> 01:41:41 said something to a fact that introducing this kind of legislation was stupid
01:41:41 --> 01:41:49 and questioned the intelligence of those members who introduced the legislation.
01:41:49 --> 01:41:52 Well, as I stated before, I was one of those people.
01:41:54 --> 01:42:07 And when the chair recognized me for my time to question the assistant attorney general,
01:42:07 --> 01:42:14 I basically told him that people who believe in barbarism,
01:42:15 --> 01:42:21 have a level of intelligence that doesn't compare to average human beings.
01:42:22 --> 01:42:28 And for somebody who supports the death penalty, I would put them in the category of being barbaric.
01:42:29 --> 01:42:35 And I take offense that somebody who obviously is not as intellectual as I am
01:42:35 --> 01:42:41 would insult my intelligence or my character or the validity of my job.
01:42:42 --> 01:42:47 Needless to say, he got a little red in the face, but he understood that he
01:42:47 --> 01:42:55 had overstepped when he put that kind of characterization on legislation.
01:42:55 --> 01:42:59 Now, you know, in private conversation, you know, in your office,
01:43:00 --> 01:43:03 you call me stupid, call me the N-word, whatever you want to do.
01:43:03 --> 01:43:07 But to say it at a public hearing and I'm sitting right there,
01:43:07 --> 01:43:10 yeah. And I had a chance to respond to that.
01:43:11 --> 01:43:13 Yeah, I took advantage of that.
01:43:14 --> 01:43:20 And so the drama was not me criticizing a Republican on the committee that was
01:43:20 --> 01:43:22 for it or attacking a member.
01:43:22 --> 01:43:26 The drama was me and the witness. Right.
01:43:27 --> 01:43:30 Especially me being the author of the bill while we're all here.
01:43:31 --> 01:43:35 And and really, that's the way it's supposed to go.
01:43:35 --> 01:43:43 Now, it's not necessarily great that people get into that kind of exchange,
01:43:43 --> 01:43:50 but the focus was between the witness and the legislator, right?
01:43:50 --> 01:43:56 Not the legislators calling each other creative names or threatening to fight each other, right?
01:43:57 --> 01:44:01 And even though that legislation didn't pass,
01:44:01 --> 01:44:06 the power of being a legislator, the power of being in a position is that you
01:44:06 --> 01:44:09 can bring issues up to have those kind of hearings,
01:44:09 --> 01:44:17 to have that kind of discussion, to really address, do we want to continue going
01:44:17 --> 01:44:23 down this road or do we need to address that particular problem? Right.
01:44:25 --> 01:44:25 So.
01:44:27 --> 01:44:30 That is one of the things that is really, really lacking.
01:44:31 --> 01:44:38 Now, you know, you want to introduce legislation, you want to you want to do things right.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:41 You just want to let's abolish this department.
01:44:41 --> 01:44:49 Let's fire all these people. Let's cut this money right out of the budget.
01:44:49 --> 01:44:51 Let's cut these programs.
01:44:51 --> 01:44:54 But they're not having hearings about it, right?
01:44:55 --> 01:45:00 And if they are having hearings, it's not, it's, it's,
01:45:01 --> 01:45:07 not informative, or maybe it's not, you know, now if you watch C-SPAN,
01:45:08 --> 01:45:12 you might get it, but as far as the national news media, mainstream media,
01:45:12 --> 01:45:13 whatever, you're not getting,
01:45:15 --> 01:45:20 the essence of what the congressional hearings are supposed to be about, right?
01:45:20 --> 01:45:27 And then for some reason now, we coach people who testify not to say anything, right?
01:45:27 --> 01:45:34 They make a statement, They read a statement and then they kind of dance around any direct questions.
01:45:35 --> 01:45:38 That defeats the purpose. Why are you there? Right.
01:45:38 --> 01:45:43 You don't want to go viral, I guess. I don't want your social media to blow up. I don't know.
01:45:45 --> 01:45:50 You don't want to look bad on television. I don't know. All I know is that this
01:45:50 --> 01:45:56 is the whole purpose is to gather information so you can make an informed decision
01:45:56 --> 01:45:58 about legislation that's being proposed.
01:45:59 --> 01:46:05 But if you want to orchestrate the hearing where nothing substantive happens
01:46:05 --> 01:46:12 or you want to just bypass the whole congressional process, period,
01:46:13 --> 01:46:16 that's not how you're supposed to govern. Right.
01:46:17 --> 01:46:21 I guarantee you. And then the
01:46:21 --> 01:46:28 other asset, well, I guarantee you that if you try to govern like that,
01:46:28 --> 01:46:33 it's going to be complete chaos. It's going to be a shit show.
01:46:33 --> 01:46:36 There's no other way around it, right?
01:46:36 --> 01:46:39 The other thing is public hearings, right?
01:46:40 --> 01:46:45 And I know that we used to have, as the Black Caucus,
01:46:45 --> 01:46:52 we used to go around the state and have these public hearings about issues and
01:46:52 --> 01:46:58 try to gather responses from the community as far as what really needs to be addressed.
01:46:59 --> 01:47:04 What are concerns in the Black community in the state of Mississippi about what's
01:47:04 --> 01:47:07 going on and inform people even?
01:47:07 --> 01:47:11 Because sometimes we say it was a hearing, but really it was a town hall because
01:47:11 --> 01:47:13 we were letting people know some
01:47:13 --> 01:47:19 information so we could get their support when we convened in January.
01:47:20 --> 01:47:24 It's like, this is coming down the pike. We need y'all's help.
01:47:25 --> 01:47:30 Some pressure on our colleagues to not pass that, right?
01:47:31 --> 01:47:40 So, you know, so what's happening now is that members of Congress went back to their districts,
01:47:40 --> 01:47:45 they held town hall meetings, and now they're finding out, doesn't matter if
01:47:45 --> 01:47:47 you're Democrat or Republican,
01:47:47 --> 01:47:51 you're finding out that people are not happy with what's going on.
01:47:51 --> 01:47:59 If you're a Democrat, biggest charge is y'all not doing enough to fight this, right?
01:47:59 --> 01:48:04 Or asking the question, what exactly are you doing to fight this, right?
01:48:04 --> 01:48:09 And then the Republicans, they're running into their constituents saying,
01:48:10 --> 01:48:11 yeah, we didn't vote for that.
01:48:11 --> 01:48:17 When we voted for Donald Trump to be president, we didn't vote for our Medicaid to get cut off.
01:48:17 --> 01:48:25 We didn't vote for a president that wasn't going to listen to the court or adhere
01:48:25 --> 01:48:26 to the instruction of the court.
01:48:27 --> 01:48:32 We didn't elect anybody to bypass you and your colleagues in Congress.
01:48:33 --> 01:48:37 Right. All these executive. We we we want you.
01:48:38 --> 01:48:41 We elected you just like we elected him to do your job.
01:48:43 --> 01:48:49 And most of those folks are not constitutional scholars or, you know,
01:48:50 --> 01:48:55 professors in political science, but they have enough of a basic understanding
01:48:55 --> 01:48:59 to know that the president represents the executive branch,
01:49:00 --> 01:49:06 Congress represents the legislative branch, and the Supreme Court represents the judicial branch.
01:49:06 --> 01:49:12 And they're all supposed to check each other, keep each other straightened.
01:49:13 --> 01:49:19 And so people are upset because the legislative branch is not checking the executive branch.
01:49:20 --> 01:49:25 It's one thing to support your fellow party member.
01:49:25 --> 01:49:31 But like I said in a previous podcast, sometimes your job is to tell your friend no.
01:49:32 --> 01:49:35 Right. And so people are hot about that.
01:49:36 --> 01:49:40 So, you know, if you really want to go about making changes,
01:49:41 --> 01:49:45 maybe you should have some public hearings, right?
01:49:46 --> 01:49:49 Which I think a lot of people were under pretense when you were talking about
01:49:49 --> 01:49:53 this Department of Government Efficiency or, you know, whatever.
01:49:54 --> 01:49:58 They thought that Elon Musk was going to have a traveling show.
01:49:58 --> 01:50:03 I know some people did, thought he was going to go to all 50 states and have
01:50:03 --> 01:50:09 these hearings about, all right, so which agency are you having a problem with?
01:50:10 --> 01:50:15 What agency do you think we don't need to have getting public input, right?
01:50:16 --> 01:50:20 And then actually going to those agencies on a fact-finding mission.
01:50:21 --> 01:50:23 So what exactly do you do over here?
01:50:24 --> 01:50:27 And then, as he stated,
01:50:28 --> 01:50:34 give a report on July 4th, 2026, based off the information he gathered from
01:50:34 --> 01:50:41 the public and actually seeing the operation of each one of these agencies,
01:50:41 --> 01:50:44 and then make a determination where you could make the cuts.
01:50:45 --> 01:50:48 Can you merge some of these agencies?
01:50:49 --> 01:50:52 Do we need particular agencies or not?
01:50:53 --> 01:50:57 Right? Because everybody's got ideas. I mean, I've had ideas.
01:51:00 --> 01:51:05 A member of Congress. Now, maybe I can convince a member of Congress to propose one of them,
01:51:07 --> 01:51:11 but, you know, the people in Congress are supposed to be the ones,
01:51:11 --> 01:51:16 because most of those agencies were created by congressional approval anyway,
01:51:16 --> 01:51:19 and they're funded by Congress.
01:51:19 --> 01:51:22 They're not funded by the president.
01:51:23 --> 01:51:29 So, the president can say, I don't want this department to exist,
01:51:30 --> 01:51:37 but what has to actually happen is that Congress has to create legislation to
01:51:37 --> 01:51:40 end that agency and put it up to a vote.
01:51:41 --> 01:51:45 That's how it's supposed to happen, right? But for some reason,
01:51:45 --> 01:51:57 we think what's happening is okay and that it's entertaining and in essence acceptable. It is not.
01:51:58 --> 01:52:02 Everybody's like, well, I don't want a dictator.
01:52:03 --> 01:52:09 Then act like it. When they have these congressional town hall meetings, attend.
01:52:10 --> 01:52:13 If you can't attend, you have a smartphone.
01:52:13 --> 01:52:18 You have several options with the smartphone. You can email.
01:52:19 --> 01:52:24 You can post on that congressperson's social media, or you can call them.
01:52:25 --> 01:52:32 But you have a tool at your hand. There are even apps to make it easier for you.
01:52:32 --> 01:52:35 You can, I think there was, there used to be an app. I don't know if it's still
01:52:35 --> 01:52:39 there, but there used to be an app where you could write a letter to your congressional
01:52:39 --> 01:52:40 person electronically.
01:52:41 --> 01:52:45 Right? Because that's the best way to reach them anyway, because the mail has
01:52:45 --> 01:52:52 to go through all these security procedures because of the anthrax scare in 2001.
01:52:53 --> 01:52:58 So they changed the way, you know, to mail stuff. You can mail a letter,
01:52:59 --> 01:53:04 but Congress person probably is not going to even see it for like about two or three weeks.
01:53:06 --> 01:53:09 Right. But they can get that phone call right then.
01:53:10 --> 01:53:16 They can get that email right then. They can get that social media post right then.
01:53:16 --> 01:53:22 You can do that. If you ain't got no friends on your social media,
01:53:22 --> 01:53:23 which I don't know how you do that.
01:53:24 --> 01:53:27 If you ain't got no friends on your social media, at least have your senator
01:53:27 --> 01:53:29 and your congressional person on there.
01:53:29 --> 01:53:33 Your state legislator, your mayor, your council member.
01:53:35 --> 01:53:40 County commissioner or supervisor, have them on there. So that way you can DM
01:53:40 --> 01:53:45 them, follow what they're doing, pay attention to what they're doing, right?
01:53:46 --> 01:53:50 So you have a sense of what's going on because they post stuff on there.
01:53:50 --> 01:53:54 Even Elon Musk is posting information. It may not be accurate,
01:53:54 --> 01:53:57 but he's posting something, right?
01:53:58 --> 01:54:07 And you can respond to that. But the way that things are going now is not conducive
01:54:07 --> 01:54:12 to a healthy society. It's not.
01:54:13 --> 01:54:16 Again, it may be entertaining for you.
01:54:17 --> 01:54:22 It may be, I don't know, gives you something to talk about.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:27 But it's not how we're supposed to function, right?
01:54:27 --> 01:54:35 Even more so if you are black or Asian or Latino,
01:54:35 --> 01:54:45 it makes it even harder if we allow one man in his merry band to wreak havoc
01:54:45 --> 01:54:50 and not have any say-so in how that goes. Right?
01:54:52 --> 01:54:58 I mean, you're just being real. In order for us to function,
01:54:58 --> 01:55:03 that means you got to stay within the rails.
01:55:03 --> 01:55:10 You can think outside the box and still be in the arena, right? That's the problem.
01:55:11 --> 01:55:14 It's like, well, we just got to get rid of the arena. No, no.
01:55:14 --> 01:55:18 No, you can't get rid of the arena.
01:55:18 --> 01:55:22 You can't disregard the Constitution.
01:55:22 --> 01:55:24 You can amend the Constitution.
01:55:25 --> 01:55:33 You can create laws to support the tenets of the Constitution, but you can't bypass it.
01:55:33 --> 01:55:37 It's not a busy interstate highway. You can't bypass it.
01:55:37 --> 01:55:43 You have to deal within that framework in order for it to work. Right?
01:55:44 --> 01:55:50 Because right now, all that is happening is that he's creating chaos,
01:55:50 --> 01:56:01 and the chaos is going to lead to unrest, and then the unrest is going to lead to drastic actions.
01:56:02 --> 01:56:07 I don't think anybody wants to be under martial law. And the only people that
01:56:07 --> 01:56:12 can keep that are the people that we entrusted to govern.
01:56:14 --> 01:56:18 And if your trust is being betrayed,
01:56:19 --> 01:56:26 then you have to pick somebody else that understands that when you take an oath,
01:56:26 --> 01:56:29 you're not taking an oath to a man or a woman.
01:56:30 --> 01:56:33 You're taking an oath to the Constitution of the United States.
01:56:33 --> 01:56:40 A document that has been around since 1789 that has been successfully amended,
01:56:40 --> 01:56:43 I believe, 26 times. right?
01:56:44 --> 01:56:48 You have to stay in the arena.
01:56:49 --> 01:56:52 Can't do stuff outside of the arena and tell everybody in the arena,
01:56:52 --> 01:56:57 this is how the game is going. No, everything has to be within the arena.
01:56:57 --> 01:57:04 Again, you can be innovative within the arena, but you can't play the game outside
01:57:04 --> 01:57:06 of the arena. You just can't do it.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:15 And not have people upset and uneasy and scared and concerned.
01:57:17 --> 01:57:20 People go to a game, they're focused on what's going on in the field,
01:57:20 --> 01:57:21 what's going on in the court.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:24 They're not caring about what's going on in the parking lot,
01:57:25 --> 01:57:27 not concerned about what's going on across the street.
01:57:27 --> 01:57:30 They're concerned about what's going on in the arena.
01:57:31 --> 01:57:36 And that's the way we have to look at government. If you want to be in those
01:57:36 --> 01:57:42 positions, then you have to stay in the arena. You have to stay within the guidelines.
01:57:43 --> 01:57:50 Black folks managed to get progress in this country staying within the guidelines.
01:57:51 --> 01:57:54 Now, some folks will say, well, you know, y'all were protesting out in the street.
01:57:54 --> 01:57:59 That's still in the guidelines because we have a First Amendment right to do that.
01:57:59 --> 01:58:02 We can assemble. We can speak.
01:58:02 --> 01:58:04 That's a constitutional right.
01:58:05 --> 01:58:06 That's within the guidelines.
01:58:07 --> 01:58:13 We start an insurrection. That's outside the guidelines. Y'all follow what I'm saying?
01:58:13 --> 01:58:18 You exceed your authority, right?
01:58:18 --> 01:58:26 President Biden just found out that the act that he wanted to do to help people
01:58:26 --> 01:58:32 have their student loans forgiven, the courts have said he exceeded his authority.
01:58:32 --> 01:58:37 Whether you agree with that decision or not, that's how it works.
01:58:39 --> 01:58:43 That's why you have these checks and balances, right?
01:58:43 --> 01:58:52 You have a branch of government to check another branch of government so that we stay in balance.
01:58:53 --> 01:58:58 Words have meaning, right? Each branch is equal.
01:58:59 --> 01:59:07 Yes, you have the head of the nation is the president in a symbolic sense.
01:59:08 --> 01:59:14 When it comes to making decisions about war, Congress is supposed to approve that.
01:59:15 --> 01:59:21 Now, there's been some bypasses as far as terms that we use like police action.
01:59:22 --> 01:59:23 That's how we got in Vietnam.
01:59:24 --> 01:59:30 But when we went to Afghanistan, Congress voted for that. When we went to Iran,
01:59:30 --> 01:59:32 Congress would have, right?
01:59:33 --> 01:59:38 So y'all need to be concerned. That's all I'm saying.
01:59:38 --> 01:59:42 Y'all need to be concerned about what's going on.
01:59:43 --> 01:59:50 And you need to challenge the people who you elected at every level to do no
01:59:50 --> 01:59:53 harm and do the right thing.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:57 Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.
01:59:58 --> 02:00:45 Music.
Related Episodes
Fall If You Will, But Rise You Must Featuring Samuel Ashworth and Dr. Ted Williams III
In this episode, Samuel Ashworth, Professor of Creative Writing at George Washington University, talks about his new book, The Death and Life of August Sweeney, in an innovative way. Then, Dr. Ted Williams III, a Chicago educator, actor, and activist, discusses the importance of the arts in activism...
A Quiet Life & How To Raise A Citizen Featuring Will Cooper, Michael McKinley and Lindsey Cormack
In this episode, friend of the podcast Will Cooper appears with his collaborator Michael McKinley to talk about the new cyber thriller book they co-authored, A Quiet Life. Then author and political science professor Lindsey Cormack discusses the importance of raising informed citizens in our democra...
Triumphant Men Featuring Mark Talley and Mike Nellis
In this episode, Mark Talley, Executive Director of Agents for Advocacy, and Mike Nellis, CEO of AUTHENTIC, talk about their personal journeys, triumphs and their views on our current political climate.