Host Erik Fleming opens the year by urging listeners to subscribe and support the podcast, then leads three in-depth interviews. Naomi Raquel Enright discusses her book Strength of Soul and the role of language and identity in confronting systemic racism. Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard explains her work with the National Parks Conservation Association to preserve and elevate Black history within national parks. George Hornedo outlines his campaign for Congress, focusing on community organizing, poverty, infrastructure, and rebuilding the Democratic Party.
The episode closes with Fleming’s commentary on the killing of Renee Nicole Good, denouncing political leaders who defend violence and urging listeners to take action through voting and civic engagement.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 make this moment a movement.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:10 Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:00 Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host,
00:02:01 --> 00:02:03 Erik Fleming. Happy New Year to everybody.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:10 I hope y'all didn't miss me too much taking that week off, but it felt good.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:17 It felt good to take a break. That literally, I think, was my first break since 2019.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:22 Yeah. Yeah, because it's like, you know, even when I had episodes,
00:02:22 --> 00:02:28 I didn't have guests, I was still plugging along, but that was my first deliberate break.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:37 Because I've been going even when I was on vacation and still doing episodes and stuff.
00:02:37 --> 00:02:41 You remember I went to a convention in Chicago and, you know,
00:02:41 --> 00:02:44 I had an interview scheduled during that week.
00:02:44 --> 00:02:51 And the adventure I had to just get Wi-Fi to do that interview was amazing.
00:02:51 --> 00:02:59 Anyway, but we're back, and we've got a jam-packed episode just go around to kick us off.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:04 We're going to be talking about systemic racism, and I have somebody running
00:03:04 --> 00:03:09 for Congress, and even we're going to talk about national parks.
00:03:10 --> 00:03:15 So I've got three very dynamic guests that are coming on, and I hope that you
00:03:15 --> 00:03:19 enjoy those interviews as we start this new year.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:22 We're about to go into a new season.
00:03:23 --> 00:03:31 As you know, I tend to do about two seasons a year, you know,
00:03:32 --> 00:03:35 and break it off into 25 episodes per season.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:44 And so, you know, If you go to www.momenterik.com, you'll be able to see it.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:46 And then that way you can break it down.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:53 Whereas like, well, I want to check out all the guests that he had, you know, on season 11.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:56 You can do that. Or season 12.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:03 You know, hear what he was saying in season three. You can do all that on the website.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:06 And also, you can subscribe to the podcast.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:10 Yeah. Yeah, new year, but same thing.
00:04:11 --> 00:04:16 We're trying to continue our goal to get as many subscribers as we can.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:24 You know, it's important for little old independent podcasters like me to continue
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 to offer a voice that's different than what you're hearing.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:36 And, you know, there's some like-minded folks out there, and I listen to a lot of them myself.
00:04:36 --> 00:04:42 But the one thing that I think is kind of nuanced is the fact that I actually
00:04:42 --> 00:04:48 am African-American, for one, and two, that, you know, I was an elected official.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:56 And in this political landscape, you don't really get a lot of people that actually has done the work.
00:04:57 --> 00:05:01 Who's actually been out there and been an activist and all that kind of stuff.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:07 You know, taking the time to do a podcast and talk to other people.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:13 And so that's, you know, that's what I bring to the table. And I hope that you like it.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:20 And with your support, we're going to continue to do it. I know times are hard.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:28 Affordability is an issue. It is not a hoax. and so you know if you can cool
00:05:28 --> 00:05:31 but the most important thing is I need y'all to listen,
00:05:32 --> 00:05:39 and and the more listeners we have that makes makes it better and and you know
00:05:39 --> 00:05:45 write reviews the whole nine yards but just go to www.momenteric.com if you
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 just want to do the subscription part,
00:05:47 --> 00:05:55 you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming and show your support and love that way too.
00:05:55 --> 00:06:01 All right. So I'm glad that we're back, which also means that Grace G is back.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:04 So ladies and gentlemen, it's time to kick our program off. And as always,
00:06:05 --> 00:06:08 we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:21 Thanks, Erik. A federal agent killed 37-year-old Renee Nicole Good, a U.S.
00:06:21 --> 00:06:25 Citizen, during an immigration enforcement operation in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:30 U.S. forces captured federally indicted Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro
00:06:30 --> 00:06:33 and his wife during a large-scale strike on Caracas.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:37 President Trump announced the removal of the National Guard from Chicago,
00:06:38 --> 00:06:42 Los Angeles, and Portland, though he warned they would return if crime increased.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:47 Minnesota Governor Tim Walz announced he will not seek a third term,
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 choosing instead to focus on a welfare fraud crisis that has drawn significant
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 criticism from the Trump administration.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:58 The House Ethics Committee is investigating Representative Mike Collins for
00:06:58 --> 00:07:01 allegedly misusing congressional resources.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:07 Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has initiated steps to demote Senator Mark Kelly
00:07:07 --> 00:07:12 from his retired Navy rank as punishment for Kelly's public encouragement of
00:07:12 --> 00:07:14 troops to refuse illegal orders.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:20 Mayor Daniel Lurie signed a new ordinance setting up a framework for a reparations
00:07:20 --> 00:07:24 fund for black residents in San Francisco, though the law does not currently
00:07:24 --> 00:07:27 allocate any city money for payouts.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:32 Democrat Renee Hardman became the first black woman elected to the Iowa Senate
00:07:32 --> 00:07:34 after winning a special election.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:40 The Trump administration is facing backlash after EEOC Chair Andrea Lucas released
00:07:40 --> 00:07:44 a video suggesting that white men may be victims of workplace discrimination
00:07:44 --> 00:07:47 and should seek compensation under civil rights laws.
00:07:48 --> 00:07:52 Milwaukee County Judge Hannah Dugan resigned after being convicted of obstruction
00:07:52 --> 00:07:58 for helping a migrant evade an immigration arrest in her courtroom. A U.S.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:03 Appeals court ruled that California's ban on openly carrying firearms is unconstitutional.
00:08:04 --> 00:08:08 South Carolina health officials reported that a measles outbreak in the state's
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 northwest region has grown to 185 cases.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:18 And Republican Representative Doug LaMalfa of California died at the age of
00:08:18 --> 00:08:23 65. I am Grace G, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:39 And it's good to hear your voice again, especially to kick off 2026.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:45 All right. Now it is time for my guest, Naomi Raquel Enright.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:52 Naomi Raquel Enright is a writer, educator, and consultant based in Brooklyn, New York.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:58 She is also a national SEED, which stands for Seeking Educational Equity and
00:08:58 --> 00:09:03 Diversity facilitator and a New York Appleseed board member.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:09 Raised in New York City, she was born in La Paz, Bolivia to an Ecuadorian mother
00:09:09 --> 00:09:14 and a Jewish American father and is a native speaker of English and Spanish.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:23 She holds a BA in Anthropology from Kenyan College and studied at the Universidad de Sevilla, Spain.
00:09:23 --> 00:09:27 She writes about racism and identity, loss, and parenting.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 Her essays have appeared in several publications, including Hold the Line magazine.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 Family Story, Role Reboot, Streetlight magazine, among others,
00:09:38 --> 00:09:43 and in the anthologies The Beijing of America, Sharing Gratitude,
00:09:44 --> 00:09:45 and Streetlight magazine.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 She has been interviewed on a number of podcasts, including Global Citizenship
00:09:50 --> 00:09:56 and Equity, Inclusion School, War Stories from the Womb, The Mixed Creator,
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 Project 25, and Dear White Women.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:04 Her essay, The Hidden Curriculum, received an honorable mention in Streetlight
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 Magazine's 2021 Essay Memoir Contest.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:13 Her book, Strength of Soul, was published in April 2019.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:18 And a lot of the questions that I'm going to ask are going to come from that
00:10:18 --> 00:10:24 book, which is a very, very powerful and insightful book.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:28 So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a
00:10:28 --> 00:10:33 guest on this podcast, Naomi Raquel Enright.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:49 All right. Naomi Raquel Enright. How are you doing? You doing good?
00:10:50 --> 00:10:56 I'm good. Hi, Eric. Good to be here. Thank you. Well, it's good to have you. Happy New Year to you.
00:10:57 --> 00:11:01 I guess I can say this on the air. I'm going to be the you're the first person
00:11:01 --> 00:11:04 I've interviewed for 2026.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:11 And so for the listeners, if I sound a little off or rusty, it's because it's
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 the first time I've taken a break since 2019.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:21 For the podcast. So I'll try to get back into the groove, but I greatly appreciate you coming on.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:28 To discuss, well, a book that you wrote about the time that I started doing
00:11:28 --> 00:11:31 my podcast, Strength of Soul.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:36 But I think it's very, very pertinent to what we're dealing with now.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:44 And so again, thank you for coming on So I start the interview off with a couple
00:11:44 --> 00:11:50 of icebreakers And so the first icebreaker is a quote And the quote I want you
00:11:50 --> 00:11:54 to respond to is Our stories are not written on our faces,
00:11:55 --> 00:11:56 What does that quote mean to you?
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 That is a profound quote to me because I think so often we make assumptions
00:12:02 --> 00:12:06 about who people are, where they stand on certain issues,
00:12:07 --> 00:12:13 how they might feel about certain issues based on the exterior and based on the superficial.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:19 And so I think if we really wish to understand ourselves as well as each other
00:12:19 --> 00:12:27 and even and certainly history, we have to go beyond that superficial surface level aspect.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:34 And so our stories are not written on our faces means there is so much more to us as human beings.
00:12:34 --> 00:12:40 And if we take the time to understand that, I think we are better equipped to
00:12:40 --> 00:12:46 understand each other, to foster empathy and compassion, and to create change.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:12:55 --> 00:13:02 I'll go with 10. All right. What one fact do you wish people who voted differently
00:13:02 --> 00:13:05 than you in the last election knew?
00:13:05 --> 00:13:11 And that can be about how you vote, about the current state of the world, about anything.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:16 One fact I would wish for those who voted differently for myself in the last
00:13:16 --> 00:13:21 election knew was that a vote is not a single issue.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:26 And so when you cast a vote, you are voting on a number of issues.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:32 And although not all of the issues may impact you personally or even your loved
00:13:32 --> 00:13:34 ones personally, they will impact someone.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:39 And to have a broader understanding of that would be, I think,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:47 a much more informed way of voting and taking into consideration what your vote is.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:54 The impact it has. Okay. Why did you decide to write this book, The Strength of Soul?
00:13:56 --> 00:13:59 All right. Yeah. So, Strength of Soul was published in 2019,
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 right? The year you started this podcast. So, it's going to be seven years in April.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:10 And I made the decision to write Strength of Soul in part for my son,
00:14:10 --> 00:14:14 but it was much bigger than my own family and my own child.
00:14:14 --> 00:14:20 Strength of Soul is an examination, a very personal examination of systemic
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 racism, language, identity.
00:14:24 --> 00:14:30 History, and even what I mentioned before about the quote, the assumptions that we make.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:39 And so Strength of Soul, to me, is a deep exploration of how we could challenge anti-Blackness,
00:14:39 --> 00:14:44 white supremacy, and systemic racism differently and in ways that relate more
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 to us as a collective and sort of,
00:14:48 --> 00:14:54 right, this oneness of humanity without losing sight of the very systemic,
00:14:54 --> 00:15:00 the real systemic issues and differences and how our experiences are vastly different.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:04 Depending on who we are and the assumptions and fact that are made about us.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:10 But I chose to write it because it felt to me that there was no book or even
00:15:10 --> 00:15:16 sort of thinking around a person like my son and a family like mine.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:17 My family is multi-ethnic.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:21 We are bilingual. We are international.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:26 And my son is presumed to be white. And I'm brown-skinned. My son is not.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:32 And for me, it felt that there was no space for a person specifically like him,
00:15:33 --> 00:15:37 but by extension, a family like my own, where we're sort of holding space in
00:15:37 --> 00:15:41 different, we're holding different spaces, I should say.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:43 We have our feet in different worlds.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:52 And I felt compelled to create a narrative that folks could refer to as a
00:15:53 --> 00:15:57 a different option, another option for challenging systemic racism.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:04 Why is the link between language, culture, and identity inextricable?
00:16:05 --> 00:16:11 Mm-hmm. So I even had this thinking when I was a Spanish teacher.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:12 I was a Spanish teacher for eight years.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:21 And I began to realize, even in my teaching of Spanish, that the language we
00:16:21 --> 00:16:24 use entirely informs the way that we think.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 And it informs the way that we interact even.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:32 And I had an understanding of this to some degree because I am a native English
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 and Spanish speaker. And so I've always held these two languages in my brain.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:40 And my students would even point out to me that I was different in Spanish.
00:16:40 --> 00:16:44 I had a different energy, a different rhythm.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:49 And I began to think, wait, there's something to this.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:54 And when I left the Spanish classroom not long after my son was born and decided
00:16:54 --> 00:16:58 to pursue anti-racist equity work more,
00:16:58 --> 00:17:01 you know as more of my my focus
00:17:01 --> 00:17:05 instead of the Spanish language classroom it I
00:17:05 --> 00:17:07 began to hear language that solidified this notion of
00:17:07 --> 00:17:11 an inherent difference between white
00:17:11 --> 00:17:15 people and everyone else essentially and for
00:17:15 --> 00:17:22 me with the child that I have it was jarring it was disconcerting and it's disorienting
00:17:22 --> 00:17:27 because I'm the mother of this human being and I'm trying to raise him to understand
00:17:27 --> 00:17:32 history and to understand inequity and to understand himself and to not have others.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:37 Tell him who he is or what his role is or how he should think or how he should
00:17:37 --> 00:17:39 feel, including myself, right?
00:17:39 --> 00:17:42 Even as the parent, giving him the space to explore and discover for himself.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:49 But it dawned on me that our language has to change in terms of how we challenge
00:17:49 --> 00:17:54 white supremacy and anti-blackness and systemic racism, because so often we
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 are solidifying the ethos, right?
00:17:57 --> 00:18:02 The ideology of these systems, which is not only an inherent difference between
00:18:02 --> 00:18:05 white people and everyone else, but this automatic process,
00:18:05 --> 00:18:10 presumption of power and protection and privilege for white folks or those who
00:18:10 --> 00:18:15 are presumed to be white, and disenfranchisement, criminalization,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 marginalization for black and brown people.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 And so to me, these three elements,
00:18:24 --> 00:18:29 language, culture, and identity are absolutely intertwined and we cannot separate
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 them from each other in thinking not only about how to challenge systemic inequity,
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 but in thinking about who we are and understanding ourselves and each other.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:45 So you close chapter nine with this phrase, the language and ideology of racial
00:18:45 --> 00:18:50 difference and whiteness are undoubtedly the master's tools.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 Expound on that, because I think, you know, in the last answer,
00:18:54 --> 00:18:58 you were kind of setting a framework for it. So kind of get into that a little bit.
00:18:58 --> 00:19:02 Yes. So the master's tools, right, is borrowing from Audre Lorde.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:05 That the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:11 And to me, the language of racial difference and whiteness are indeed the master's
00:19:11 --> 00:19:17 tools because those were the tools created to justify inequity and injustice
00:19:17 --> 00:19:20 and oppression and violence.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:27 We cannot envision a different future if we're consistently using the methodology
00:19:27 --> 00:19:32 and the tools that were created to justify dehumanization, ultimately.
00:19:33 --> 00:19:36 And so for me, those are the master's tools.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:39 And, you know, I've now been working on this for a long time,
00:19:39 --> 00:19:42 right? Seven years since the book came out, 15 years since my son was born.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:47 So I've done a lot of thinking about this. And I am continuously honing what
00:19:47 --> 00:19:49 that could look like and what that can sound like.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:52 And one thing I've come
00:19:52 --> 00:19:55 across that I have found extremely helpful to my own work
00:19:55 --> 00:20:02 and to my own understanding and I would hope to create change is Isabel Wilkerson's
00:20:02 --> 00:20:08 caste and casteism and her language of caste and how caste really places the
00:20:08 --> 00:20:14 onus on the system as it functions as opposed to who we are as individuals.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:22 And so when I read her book in 2020, I was blown away by how masterfully she
00:20:22 --> 00:20:28 was able to explain the system that we have in place and have had for centuries.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:35 And it explained not only that, but it also highlighted the reality I experienced
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 as the mother of this presumed to be white son.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:43 And so her book and her work, for me,
00:20:44 --> 00:20:50 are further sort of progress in terms of being able to talk about these issues
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 and create change differently.
00:20:54 --> 00:21:01 So what about those of us, including me, that take pride in being Black or Blackness?
00:21:01 --> 00:21:05 Is our pride delaying systematic change?
00:21:06 --> 00:21:12 Not at all. I think I make a real fine distinction between assuming inherent
00:21:12 --> 00:21:15 difference between white people and everyone else and feeling pride in who you
00:21:15 --> 00:21:16 are in your family history.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 And I think, and I also am very clear
00:21:19 --> 00:21:27 to distinguish between or separate anti-Blackness as its own beast, right?
00:21:27 --> 00:21:30 I think for a long time in my work and in my understanding of racism,
00:21:30 --> 00:21:33 I had it sort of all blended together.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:38 And it took my becoming a mother, actually, and becoming an adult,
00:21:38 --> 00:21:44 I suppose, to really see that anti-Blackness is its own separate entity.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:50 And it needs to be tackled much more directly and not necessarily in conjunction with, right?
00:21:50 --> 00:21:55 Because there are folks who are brown or who are new to this country who...
00:21:55 --> 00:22:00 Who don't understand that systemic racism and white supremacy impact them as
00:22:00 --> 00:22:06 well, precisely because they are also feeding into anti-Blackness.
00:22:06 --> 00:22:13 And so for me to be a proud Black person or to feel ownership of Blackness is
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 a cultural marker, right?
00:22:15 --> 00:22:20 That is a cultural historical marker, even a social marker.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:25 But that should not be in conjunction with accepting that it is natural for
00:22:25 --> 00:22:30 white people or presumed to be white people to be safer and more privileged
00:22:30 --> 00:22:35 and more protected and even more empowered in the world than black people and
00:22:35 --> 00:22:37 then by extension than brown people.
00:22:37 --> 00:22:41 And I actually appreciate the question because I think there's often a misunderstanding
00:22:41 --> 00:22:44 on my position and what I think and why.
00:22:45 --> 00:22:48 And I want to make it clear that I am also very much speaking to the experience
00:22:48 --> 00:22:53 of a person who is multi-ethnic, who exists between cultures and worlds,
00:22:53 --> 00:22:55 who speaks two languages.
00:22:55 --> 00:23:00 You know, I'm a native speaker of both. And so that's a very different experience.
00:23:00 --> 00:23:08 And I think it is in sort of owning and recognizing the validity of those experiences
00:23:08 --> 00:23:11 that more understanding and change can occur as well.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 Right. So I hope that helps you answer the question.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:20 It helps to also highlight that I do not have it all as one because it isn't.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:25 Right. Anti-blackness is very much it's very separate as far as I'm concerned. Okay.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:32 Why is it important for us to focus on the scholarship of the shelves as well
00:23:32 --> 00:23:34 as the scholarship of the selves?
00:23:35 --> 00:23:41 Yes. So that is coming from the National SEED organization that I trained with
00:23:41 --> 00:23:46 in, gosh, July 2023, maybe?
00:23:46 --> 00:23:49 No, it's even earlier. 2015, what am I saying? 2015, right?
00:23:50 --> 00:23:52 The new year always throws off one's timing.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:58 So I learned that in that training, and SEED stands for Seeking Educational
00:23:58 --> 00:24:02 Equity and Diversity. And it was a transformative, profound,
00:24:03 --> 00:24:06 life-altering experience for me, that training in 2015.
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08 Four years later, the book was published.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:15 And I was very taken by this mantra, the scholarship of the shelves and the
00:24:15 --> 00:24:16 scholarship of the selves.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:20 And I think it is crucial because we have to have an intellectual,
00:24:20 --> 00:24:29 scholastic understanding of history and of sociology, all of these subjects, right?
00:24:29 --> 00:24:35 But we also need to know where we stand within that and our own personal histories, right?
00:24:36 --> 00:24:40 And so I think so often in this country, we talk about history as separate from
00:24:40 --> 00:24:44 the lived experience of what people are carrying with them, right?
00:24:44 --> 00:24:48 And that they might pass on, right, to their children or to future generations, be they parents or not.
00:24:49 --> 00:24:53 And so to me, you cannot have one with the other. You can't have an understanding
00:24:53 --> 00:25:00 intellectually of something without also an emotional visceral understanding as well.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:04 And that was part of the training was really examining where we stand within
00:25:04 --> 00:25:08 these systemic social structures based on our experience. Right.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 If you're a gay man or if you're a trans woman or if you're an immigrant or
00:25:12 --> 00:25:14 if you are differently abled.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:21 Right. Whatever your identity markers are, impact the social reality as well.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:27 And so they are also inextricably linked, to return to that earlier question
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 about language, culture, and identity. Okay.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:36 How has the language of racial difference tried to erase your lived experience?
00:25:38 --> 00:25:44 Well, I would say I felt some erasure in that language even growing up because
00:25:44 --> 00:25:48 I would often feel protective of my father.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:53 My father was a white Jewish American educator, civil rights activist,
00:25:53 --> 00:25:55 and really a gem of a human being.
00:25:55 --> 00:26:00 And so often in spaces, blank statements would be made that would make me feel protective of him.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:05 It would make me feel even defensive because I would think, you don't know my father.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 You don't know what he's been through or who he is or the values he's passing
00:26:08 --> 00:26:09 on to me and my older brother.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:14 And so there was some discomfort growing up.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:20 However, I would say it didn't become really almost untenable until motherhood.
00:26:20 --> 00:26:28 And so when my son was born and I began to really notice this acceptance that
00:26:28 --> 00:26:31 there are white people and everyone else, and it really was,
00:26:31 --> 00:26:35 it was just disorienting to me because I thought, well,
00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 there's my son and I brought him into the world, right?
00:26:40 --> 00:26:44 My husband and I brought him into the world. And he's also has this whole history
00:26:44 --> 00:26:46 through me as well, right? Ecuadorian, Spanish speaking.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:53 He's bilingual as well, actually. And so it felt to me like a person like him
00:26:53 --> 00:26:54 and a family like mine just.
00:26:55 --> 00:27:00 Just didn't factor in, you know, that we're just almost figments of people's imagination, right?
00:27:00 --> 00:27:04 And I know we're not figments of people's imagination because we're here, right?
00:27:05 --> 00:27:13 And so to me, I really wanted to sort of add to the canon.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:17 I don't mean to imply that my work is, you know, as necessarily,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:21 you know, influential or profound as others, but I did want to contribute,
00:27:22 --> 00:27:28 right, to the canon of work examining and challenging white supremacy,
00:27:28 --> 00:27:34 systemic racism, and anti-Blackness, specifically through the lens of a person like myself, right?
00:27:34 --> 00:27:40 And so I continue to feel that disorientation, but it bothers me much less because
00:27:40 --> 00:27:45 of the work that I do and because of how my husband and I and our families have
00:27:45 --> 00:27:48 been raising my son and even because of who he is.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:52 I mean, he's sort of, for me, is the embodiment of all of my efforts.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:57 And he has a real profound understanding and has since he was quite young about
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 history and himself and others.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:06 And so for me, that feels empowering and is a better use of my energy than being
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08 concerned with not feeling included.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:16 All right. So what was your reaction when Vice President Vance proclaimed that
00:28:16 --> 00:28:20 white people don't have to apologize for being white anymore?
00:28:23 --> 00:28:30 Well, it certainly upset me on a visceral level because it's a complete denial
00:28:30 --> 00:28:33 of systemic reality and of history.
00:28:34 --> 00:28:36 And it's feeding into...
00:28:38 --> 00:28:45 The idea that racism or discrimination or inequity are personal slights,
00:28:45 --> 00:28:48 they are much more than personal slights, right?
00:28:48 --> 00:28:53 This is about education, about our criminal justice system, about immigration.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:58 And so for me, it felt like a cop-out. It's lazy.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 It's insensitive. It's a historical.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 And...
00:29:05 --> 00:29:09 It's wrong. Right. I think that you can I don't believe white people have to
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 apologize for being white.
00:29:11 --> 00:29:15 But I do think white people have to acknowledge the privilege and power and
00:29:15 --> 00:29:20 protection that they are ensured because of white supremacy and because of anti-blackness
00:29:20 --> 00:29:25 and because of systemic racism or to borrow from Isabel Wilkerson because of casteism.
00:29:26 --> 00:29:30 Right. I think that is a crucial aspect of understanding history and of creating
00:29:30 --> 00:29:33 change. And I think it's been distorted.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:39 And yeah, distorted is a good word for it. You have this idea that it's a personal thing.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:44 Right. And so for me, it's very concerning that aspect because I think you're
00:29:44 --> 00:29:46 entitled to feel offended personally anytime.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 Right. That's just a natural human response to something. Right.
00:29:49 --> 00:29:58 But to conflate that with historical and systemic truths is extremely dangerous.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:03 And I think that's precisely why we are where we are, at least one of the reasons.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 And so, yes, it bothered me a great deal. And particularly so as the parent
00:30:07 --> 00:30:13 of a person who out in the world, people are seeing a white person. Right.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:16 They're not assuming anything beyond that about my son out in the world.
00:30:16 --> 00:30:19 And so for me, it felt so dangerous for a person.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:25 Right. It's the kind of thing that you feed into these notions that actually
00:30:25 --> 00:30:31 allow for people to remain ignorant of history and of how this inequitable system
00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 actually impacts them as well or potentially impacts them as well differently,
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36 but certainly impacts them.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:42 So it's a dangerous, dangerous statement, and not only dangerous,
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 but also untrue. And like I said, like, ahistorical.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:54 Yeah, because when he said that, it took me back to when I was living in Jackson,
00:30:55 --> 00:31:00 Mississippi at the time, and they used to try to do these racial reconciliation things.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:02 And I remember...
00:31:03 --> 00:31:09 I stood up and said, you know, this is going to be a hard exercise because usually
00:31:09 --> 00:31:13 people reconcile after there's been an apology.
00:31:14 --> 00:31:18 And I don't ever remember the apology part.
00:31:18 --> 00:31:23 So when I heard him say, well, we need to stop apologizing, I said, when did you start?
00:31:24 --> 00:31:29 Right? Exactly right. Exactly. I missed that somewhere in my 60 years.
00:31:29 --> 00:31:34 So, yeah, I understand. I appreciate the way that you addressed it,
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36 which leads me to this question.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:42 Why do you think it is a hard concept for Americans to understand that race
00:31:42 --> 00:31:46 is a product of racism? Oh, wow.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:56 I think that is a very difficult concept for most Americans to grasp precisely
00:31:56 --> 00:32:06 because of the sort of acquiescence and acceptance of race as immutable and true.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:16 And so it's very hard to explain that the system and its inequities are absolutely
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 real and true and have been,
00:32:20 --> 00:32:25 but that the origin of them, the justification for them is a lie, right?
00:32:25 --> 00:32:28 This idea that we are inherently different from each other based on skin color.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 And so I think that conflation was purposeful.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:39 I think it's by design. And I think it has been an experiment that has continued
00:32:39 --> 00:32:44 to work for centuries and that even in my own work in anti-racist work,
00:32:44 --> 00:32:50 I had come across this utter confusion in terms of what it is that we're actually
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 naming and what it is that we actually wish to change.
00:32:53 --> 00:33:00 And so for me, I'm very, very intentional and clear about consistently putting
00:33:00 --> 00:33:07 the onus on the system and on history and not who people are intrinsically and
00:33:07 --> 00:33:10 certainly not on this lie that because I'm brown skinned,
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 I'm automatically different from you as a black person or automatically different
00:33:14 --> 00:33:15 from someone as a white person.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:20 And for me, that is something I've continued, like I said before,
00:33:20 --> 00:33:23 to hone and to, you know, strengthen.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:27 But I would say that given the number of years I've been thinking about it and
00:33:27 --> 00:33:33 writing about it and working on it, I'm very clear that if you want to create
00:33:33 --> 00:33:37 change and you want to change a system, challenge and change a system,
00:33:37 --> 00:33:42 you have to name that system and you have to not be continuously naming things.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:49 Lies. Lies that were created for a purpose and that purpose is being served
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 and continues to be served.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:54 And there are many writers who have examined this, right? Ta-Nehisi Coates has
00:33:54 --> 00:33:55 examined it. James Baldwin examined it.
00:33:56 --> 00:34:01 Isabel Wilkerson, Toni Morrison. There's so many who have named this in various
00:34:01 --> 00:34:03 ways over the course of history and time.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:10 And yet we continue to revert to this way of thinking and way of engaging,
00:34:10 --> 00:34:15 which I also feel is it's been weaponized as well, right?
00:34:15 --> 00:34:22 Because people have chosen to use the fact that we are actually not inherently
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 different from each other as a way to deny systemic inequity, racist inequity.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 And so that's been also by design. And that is something that I'm also finding
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 in my work I'm up against.
00:34:33 --> 00:34:36 Right. It's up against the lie itself and it's up against the weaponization
00:34:36 --> 00:34:39 of the truth as a denial of the reality.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:45 And so for me, it's so, so complex and sensitive and deep-seated,
00:34:45 --> 00:34:52 but I am determined in my own corner of the world to create change in this way
00:34:52 --> 00:34:59 of really challenging systemic racism at its root and not perpetuating its ideology,
00:34:59 --> 00:35:01 its ethos, and certainly not its language.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 And hopefully I'm making an impact in some capacity.
00:35:06 --> 00:35:12 Yeah, and I'm going to deal with, I got a question as far as your impact goes.
00:35:13 --> 00:35:19 I want to go back. What can be done public policy wise to stop racism from being
00:35:19 --> 00:35:24 this sixth sense that we have? Oh, yeah.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 So that's a tough one for me because I feel it's a little bit outside of my
00:35:28 --> 00:35:31 expertise and my own realm, right?
00:35:31 --> 00:35:34 I'm an educator. Education is really my focus.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:41 But with that said, I do think one way is that so often when we use the word
00:35:41 --> 00:35:45 race, we could replace it with racism.
00:35:45 --> 00:35:50 Often, I think more often than not, we could or even specifically systemic racism.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:58 And so I think that's one very intentional and I think effective way of doing.
00:35:59 --> 00:36:03 Discussing what we need to discuss and creating the change that we need to create.
00:36:03 --> 00:36:09 I have sat with many an article or, you know, even a post, right,
00:36:09 --> 00:36:14 where I read and I think, how could this be reframed so that we're actually naming the system?
00:36:14 --> 00:36:20 And I have an essay that I was published back in 2021 called A Hidden Curriculum, which did just that.
00:36:20 --> 00:36:25 I actually came across a, I don't know, kind of an ad for how kids,
00:36:25 --> 00:36:31 quote unquote, conceptualize race between birth or zero, a zero it said, to six plus years.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:37 And I was really struck by the ad because it was really solidifying racism is
00:36:37 --> 00:36:40 what it was doing. It was solidifying this notion of inherent difference.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:44 And of course, it erased my family and my own child.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:50 And so I sat with it for weeks and thought, how can I frame this differently
00:36:50 --> 00:36:54 so that it's actually saying what it wishes to say, which is how do you teach children about racism?
00:36:54 --> 00:36:57 How do you teach children to understand that systemic racism is real,
00:36:57 --> 00:37:04 that inequity is real, that our history has so much evidence of this? How do you do that?
00:37:04 --> 00:37:07 And I sat with this thing and I rewrote it, actually.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10 And then I wrote an entire essay based on that rewriting.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:14 And it takes time and energy. Like I said, it took me weeks to do just that
00:37:14 --> 00:37:17 little ad, you know, to just think, how can I frame this differently?
00:37:17 --> 00:37:21 It took me a long time, but it was worth the time. Because when people have
00:37:21 --> 00:37:23 read that essay, they have said to me, wow,
00:37:24 --> 00:37:30 what you're rewriting completely alters what is actually being said and what
00:37:30 --> 00:37:34 you wish to convey to educators, to caregivers,
00:37:34 --> 00:37:36 to parents.
00:37:36 --> 00:37:41 And, you know, to answer your question, a way to bigger parties,
00:37:41 --> 00:37:43 right, and public policy and whatnot, right?
00:37:43 --> 00:37:47 That if you are reframing, you actually might get closer to—actually,
00:37:47 --> 00:37:51 no, you will get closer to the truth of what it is you want to say. Yeah.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:57 With the onset of President Trump in the American political landscape,
00:37:57 --> 00:38:05 how much of a setback have we faced as a nation in dealing with the eradication of racism? Oof.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:13 I sadly believe that we have, we're quite, it's quite a setback, right?
00:38:13 --> 00:38:15 It's a huge setback.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:22 And it's one that is very concerning and infuriating and frightening for those
00:38:22 --> 00:38:26 of us invested in this work and for those of us who really wish for this country
00:38:26 --> 00:38:28 to be what is always claimed it is.
00:38:28 --> 00:38:34 And so I'm very concerned. And I think at the same time, however,
00:38:34 --> 00:38:42 I think it's an absolute response, right, to changes that have been made or,
00:38:42 --> 00:38:43 you know, were on the horizon.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:50 And it simply requires more effort and more energy and more focus.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53 And I think part of that focus is what we've been discussing,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:58 which is precisely naming the system and placing the onus on the system and
00:38:58 --> 00:38:59 understanding history.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:04 So I, you know, I feel that, yes, it is a setback, quite a big one, I think.
00:39:04 --> 00:39:08 But I don't think it means we can't. I don't think that at all.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:13 For me, to think that would be defeatist and it would be, I think,
00:39:13 --> 00:39:18 also an erasure of all the work that has been done and how many folks in the
00:39:18 --> 00:39:22 country actually do wish for positive social change, because there are quite a few of us.
00:39:22 --> 00:39:27 And even folks who thought they wanted this realize now they don't, right?
00:39:27 --> 00:39:34 And so I think that can be, can serve as, you know, sort of fuel for the work
00:39:34 --> 00:39:38 itself and for hopefully this country one day, right?
00:39:38 --> 00:39:42 Perhaps it'll be in my lifetime, perhaps not. But one day really living up to
00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 the ideals that it was that is claimed from the start.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:53 Right. E pluribus Unum. Right. Out of many one. And so I have to think it's possible.
00:39:53 --> 00:40:00 And that's the space I try to work from and remain in. Okay.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:07 So I've got three more questions. So I wanted to go back to you were talking about your work.
00:40:07 --> 00:40:11 How has being an other given you an advantage in your work?
00:40:13 --> 00:40:14 So...
00:40:15 --> 00:40:20 As an other, which I'm not entirely comfortable with that description because
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 to me, it sort of implies that there is a standard and a norm.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26 And so I'm not wholly comfortable with that description.
00:40:26 --> 00:40:31 However, I have had that experience, right? My whole life, I've always been on the outs.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:40 And I would say that that reality of constantly looking in or not feeling represented
00:40:40 --> 00:40:45 or reflected has been ultimately a gift in my life.
00:40:45 --> 00:40:52 Because it has allowed me to see people and situations and understand people
00:40:52 --> 00:40:57 and situations more broadly, more holistically, more openly.
00:40:57 --> 00:41:04 And it's allowed for me to connect with a wide range of folks who wouldn't necessarily
00:41:04 --> 00:41:06 connect with each other, but will connect with me.
00:41:06 --> 00:41:11 And I think that's kind of beautiful to be able to connect with people for a
00:41:11 --> 00:41:16 wide range of reasons, you know, because of my experience on the outside or
00:41:16 --> 00:41:20 in the space between, I like to say, right, that I exist in the space between.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:26 And so it's absolutely informed my work, my lived experience, my relationships.
00:41:26 --> 00:41:30 I mean, my husband is a white man from Midwest. He grew up in Ohio.
00:41:30 --> 00:41:31 His family is from Indiana originally.
00:41:32 --> 00:41:38 He is not bilingual. He understands, I'd say, 95 to 98 percent of what we say
00:41:38 --> 00:41:41 in Spanish, but he does not speak it.
00:41:41 --> 00:41:45 And he has traveled now internationally more so as an adult.
00:41:46 --> 00:41:50 But when I met him, he left the country once and then had left it again with
00:41:50 --> 00:41:54 me in 2018 to meet my family in Guayaquil in Ecuador.
00:41:55 --> 00:42:01 And yet, because of my experience of not necessarily or rather knowing that
00:42:01 --> 00:42:07 I won't necessarily know who a person is unless I give them the space to tell me and share.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:12 I, you know, he's one of the most open-minded, curious, compassionate,
00:42:12 --> 00:42:18 empathetic, caring individuals who is aware of the inequity that exists in this
00:42:18 --> 00:42:19 country. You know, he's, he's.
00:42:21 --> 00:42:25 Disgusted by it, all the while understanding that he has benefited from it,
00:42:25 --> 00:42:26 right, as a white male in this country.
00:42:26 --> 00:42:31 He has been completely on board in raising our son to understand the nuance
00:42:31 --> 00:42:36 and complexity of his multi-ethnic identity, right, despite his presumption of whiteness.
00:42:36 --> 00:42:41 And so for me, all that is to say that I could have written my husband off if
00:42:41 --> 00:42:45 it hadn't been for my understanding that our stories are not written on our
00:42:45 --> 00:42:47 faces, to return to the quote.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:52 So I would say all that is the outcome of being, of existing in the space between.
00:42:53 --> 00:42:59 Yeah. And I should have put the quotes on other because, but it shows how you've
00:42:59 --> 00:43:04 evolved even from writing the book, because that was a term that you had used
00:43:04 --> 00:43:07 to kind of describe yourself. And it's like, yeah, I don't describe myself as that anymore.
00:43:07 --> 00:43:10 So that's, that's cool. That just, that shows that growth.
00:43:11 --> 00:43:17 All right. Is the soul of America strong enough for radical change and reconstruction.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:21 The soul of America is strong enough for radical change and reconstruction.
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24 Wow. That's profound.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:33 I think the soul of America will only be strong enough for that until it reckons with its.
00:43:34 --> 00:43:45 The past. And with the wrongs it has committed, with the notion of exceptionalism, right?
00:43:45 --> 00:43:50 I think if all of those things are faced, I believe the soul of America would
00:43:50 --> 00:43:53 be able to withstand, right?
00:43:53 --> 00:43:55 And become what it could be.
00:43:56 --> 00:44:01 But at this point in time, I don't think so. Sadly, I don't because of what I said, right?
00:44:02 --> 00:44:06 That we have really decided to not face our history head on,
00:44:07 --> 00:44:09 rewriting, sanitizing.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:13 And all of that has led to the moment we find ourselves in now in,
00:44:13 --> 00:44:18 you know, the fifth anniversary of the insurrection on the Capitol in 2021.
00:44:19 --> 00:44:23 And so I hope that someday that could be the case.
00:44:23 --> 00:44:29 But given what's going on now and what has gone on, I don't think so. No.
00:44:30 --> 00:44:34 I got you. I can just imagine you talking to a student and it's like,
00:44:34 --> 00:44:39 yeah, I think you can do well in this major, but you're not really applying yourself.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:42 That's where I kind of got my vibe.
00:44:43 --> 00:44:48 But all right. The teacher. That's right. All right. So let's close this out.
00:44:48 --> 00:44:53 This is something I'm trying to do with all my guests for this particular year.
00:44:53 --> 00:44:55 I want you to finish this sentence.
00:44:56 --> 00:44:58 I have hope because.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:09 I have hope because I am capable of being and creating the change I wish to see.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:18 I have hope because of the family I come from and the ancestors who brought me here.
00:45:19 --> 00:45:28 I have hope because of my son and the compassionate, aware, kind,
00:45:28 --> 00:45:31 intelligent, and determined individual that he is.
00:45:31 --> 00:45:35 And I have hope because if I give that up, I have nothing.
00:45:36 --> 00:45:43 Yeah. Yeah. Well, Naomi Raquel Enright, this was worth the wait.
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45 I greatly appreciate you coming on.
00:45:45 --> 00:45:48 Thank you. I greatly appreciate the gift of the book.
00:45:50 --> 00:45:55 Very, very, like I said, even though it's been written almost seven years ago
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 now, it's still very timely and very powerful and very personal.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:06 It's almost more like a memoir than a, you know, a thought provoking book,
00:46:06 --> 00:46:08 but yet it still accomplishes both things.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:16 So if people want to reach out to you and get you to help them understand some
00:46:16 --> 00:46:18 things, how can they do that?
00:46:18 --> 00:46:22 Absolutely. I would love for folks to reach out. I'm quite active on LinkedIn,
00:46:22 --> 00:46:28 but beyond that, my website is www.naomirackel.com.
00:46:28 --> 00:46:34 And people can reach out to me through my website as well as read my work,
00:46:34 --> 00:46:38 hear other podcast interviews, and I hope people will.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:45 I'm always willing and wanting for this kind of interaction and collective effort.
00:46:45 --> 00:46:50 Well, again, thank you for doing this and much continued success,
00:46:50 --> 00:46:56 not only this year, but throughout your career and trying to get us on the right path.
00:46:57 --> 00:47:02 And hopefully we can we can get that strength to do the right thing eventually.
00:47:02 --> 00:47:05 So, again, thank you for coming on. Thank you.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:31 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest,
00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:40 Led by a call to action, Eboni is a management professional with a background
00:47:40 --> 00:47:44 in nonprofit administration, program operations, partnerships,
00:47:44 --> 00:47:47 community engagement and workforce development.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:53 She has spent the last decade working with public land management agencies on youth programs.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:59 DEI programming and facilitation, advocacy, community engagement,
00:47:59 --> 00:48:03 recruitment, inclusive hiring practices, and volunteer engagement.
00:48:03 --> 00:48:08 Outside of work, Eboni serves as a board member for Justice Outside,
00:48:09 --> 00:48:12 Georgia Conservation Voters, the Next 100 Coalition,
00:48:13 --> 00:48:19 the Appalachian Trail Conservancy, and the Association for Outdoor Recreation and Education.
00:48:19 --> 00:48:23 She holds a BA from Duke University,
00:48:23 --> 00:48:30 MSW from Columbia University, and MBA and MPA from Kennesaw State University,
00:48:30 --> 00:48:35 a certificate of business analytics from the Warden School,
00:48:35 --> 00:48:40 and a PhD in public policy from Southern University and A&M College.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:46 In her free time, Eboni is an avid hiker, reader, and CrossFit enthusiast.
00:48:46 --> 00:48:50 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:48:50 --> 00:48:53 on this podcast, Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard.
00:49:06 --> 00:49:11 All right. Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:49:12 --> 00:49:16 I'm great. I'm great. How are you? I'm doing fine, ma'am. Honored to have you come on.
00:49:17 --> 00:49:24 So I wanted to talk to you about the work that you do dealing with the national parks,
00:49:24 --> 00:49:30 specifically with the National Parks Conservation Association and how closely
00:49:30 --> 00:49:35 you relate to the workers and the actual parks themselves.
00:49:36 --> 00:49:43 And so I'm kind of, kind of in a way, because as we're recording this,
00:49:44 --> 00:49:49 this is after the young lady had been shot in Memphis,
00:49:50 --> 00:49:55 I mean, Memphis, Minneapolis, and which is kind of related to what you do because
00:49:55 --> 00:49:59 when I was like about a month old,
00:49:59 --> 00:50:04 maybe a little more than a month, there was a lady named Viola Liuzzo,
00:50:04 --> 00:50:11 I'm sorry, Viola Liuzzo, who died in Alabama,
00:50:11 --> 00:50:14 and during the summer Montgomery March.
00:50:14 --> 00:50:22 And the Park Service has memorial for her on the trail because that's part of the Park Service.
00:50:22 --> 00:50:27 And we'll get into some of the historic stuff, but that's kind of where my mind
00:50:27 --> 00:50:31 is, but I'm going to push through it, if you forgive me on that.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:37 So normally how I start these interviews is that I do a couple of icebreakers.
00:50:37 --> 00:50:41 So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:46 And the quote is, let your voice be known. What does that quote mean to you?
00:50:47 --> 00:50:51 You know, the first thing that popped in my mind in response to that was another
00:50:51 --> 00:50:53 quote, and it's Booker T.
00:50:54 --> 00:50:59 Washington, and he said, excellence is to do a common thing in an uncommon way, right?
00:50:59 --> 00:51:04 And so just using the powers and the strength that we have to share with the
00:51:04 --> 00:51:06 world, it comes with a lot of responsibility, right?
00:51:06 --> 00:51:12 And so just being able to live in truth with that and make sure that,
00:51:12 --> 00:51:14 because unfortunately, these things continue to happen, right?
00:51:14 --> 00:51:19 You just named two women in less than 30 seconds, right, that have been impacted
00:51:19 --> 00:51:23 by things that we've seen our community being impacted by over generations.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:29 And so using that to not lose sight of it, but also find a way to inspire and
00:51:29 --> 00:51:32 push forward and keep fighting because we have to. Right.
00:51:33 --> 00:51:36 All right. So now the next one is called 20 questions.
00:51:37 --> 00:51:41 OK. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:51:43 --> 00:51:50 Okay. What is one thing that you hope the current administration will or will
00:51:50 --> 00:51:52 not do during the remainder of their term?
00:51:53 --> 00:51:56 Do you want me to put my work hat on or is this just Eboni?
00:51:58 --> 00:52:02 It's just Eboni. It's just Eboni talking. Yeah.
00:52:03 --> 00:52:07 No more cuts. These cuts have been devastating.
00:52:07 --> 00:52:11 You know, when we talk about the cuts in jobs, when we talk about the cuts in
00:52:11 --> 00:52:15 funding, when we talk about the cuts in just positions and agency,
00:52:15 --> 00:52:18 the impact will be felt for generations.
00:52:19 --> 00:52:23 I say, you know, as we continue on like a continuing resolution and working
00:52:23 --> 00:52:27 through past budgets, I say we'll never go back.
00:52:27 --> 00:52:29 You know, when COVID happened, we say we'll never go back to 2019.
00:52:29 --> 00:52:34 Right. And like, we'll never go back to the time of the last administration, put a politics aside.
00:52:34 --> 00:52:39 But to say that even if Trump said, I'm going to reverse everything that I did
00:52:39 --> 00:52:42 in 2025, it's still going to take generations to recover.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:47 So to kind of stop the bleeding, if you will, for a little while, just stopping the cuts.
00:52:47 --> 00:52:51 And I'll leave it there. But certainly there's more we can add to that if there's interest.
00:52:52 --> 00:52:56 Yeah, yeah. You know, we're going to keep this a safe space for you.
00:52:57 --> 00:53:03 In that regard. Did you know Betty Reed Soskin? Did you ever meet her?
00:53:03 --> 00:53:07 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's a good one.
00:53:07 --> 00:53:12 Yeah. So was she the oldest park ranger when she retired?
00:53:12 --> 00:53:18 Okay. She was. Yeah. Yeah. So lift her up because she just passed,
00:53:18 --> 00:53:21 I guess, what, earlier this month or last month? Right.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:24 Late last month. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
00:53:24 --> 00:53:29 All right. So what is the National Parks Conservation Association?
00:53:30 --> 00:53:34 Sure. So we're an advocacy group on behalf of the National Park Service.
00:53:35 --> 00:53:39 What does that mean for people that don't know about the National Park Service
00:53:39 --> 00:53:43 or what advocacy means, especially as it relates to a nonprofit?
00:53:44 --> 00:53:47 We were started by the same people that started the National Park Service,
00:53:47 --> 00:53:50 right, 1916. We were started three years later.
00:53:50 --> 00:53:54 And so we're a nonprofit side of it. So as a federal agency,
00:53:54 --> 00:53:57 there are certain things they can do and say, and then there are certain things
00:53:57 --> 00:54:01 they can't do and things that they can't say. And so we do it on behalf, right?
00:54:01 --> 00:54:05 And so if we feel like they're not getting a fair shot, whether it be for funding,
00:54:05 --> 00:54:07 whether it be an interpretation,
00:54:07 --> 00:54:10 whether it be environmental threats, and they can't speak out on those,
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 whether it be positions, whether there should be more investment in cultural
00:54:14 --> 00:54:17 resources, whether there should be more investment in the protection of landscapes,
00:54:18 --> 00:54:19 things like that, we do it on their behalf.
00:54:19 --> 00:54:25 So we are the only agency that sits as the advocacy organization for the National Park Service.
00:54:25 --> 00:54:28 Now are you the first African-American to
00:54:28 --> 00:54:31 serve in that position that you're in I'm not
00:54:31 --> 00:54:34 the first but we can count on one hand how many there's been
00:54:34 --> 00:54:38 in a hundred plus years I understand
00:54:38 --> 00:54:41 I understand you know I'm I I was
00:54:41 --> 00:54:44 I was the first black sergeant
00:54:44 --> 00:54:48 at arms for the Mississippi state senate since reconstruction
00:54:48 --> 00:54:51 and that was there you go so I mean it's
00:54:51 --> 00:54:53 like you know I tried to
00:54:53 --> 00:54:56 follow the previous black guy that was blanche k Bruce and
00:54:56 --> 00:55:02 get into u.s senate but as a whole nother story yeah but yeah so i i definitely
00:55:02 --> 00:55:07 understand about the rarity and stuff fortunately i kind of set a domino effect
00:55:07 --> 00:55:12 because the next two or three sergeant arms were african-american so that's
00:55:12 --> 00:55:16 awesome i'll say all of my predecessors Cheers.
00:55:18 --> 00:55:24 Two or in the last five years. And then I'm serving with another one right now. So we're in.
00:55:24 --> 00:55:26 Okay. We're doing the work.
00:55:27 --> 00:55:33 Yeah. Yeah. How did Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard become a champion for our national parks?
00:55:34 --> 00:55:37 You know, it just kind of, if I'm being honest, fell into my lap.
00:55:38 --> 00:55:42 I was one of those students that was just very curious with all the things.
00:55:42 --> 00:55:46 I went to a university where I lived in a bubble.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 And I kind of lost myself for a little bit, if I'm being honest.
00:55:49 --> 00:55:56 But my senior year, I was able to go on a week tour around the state of North Carolina with NAACP.
00:55:57 --> 00:55:59 Their state conference office was right down the street from us.
00:55:59 --> 00:56:04 And it was the reality check that I say I needed, not to get religious, but it was God's timing.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:08 I really needed to go on that trip at that time and with those folks and meet
00:56:08 --> 00:56:11 with different community members to have a reminder like, hey,
00:56:11 --> 00:56:12 this is right down the road.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:17 And people are living grossly different lives than you. And all of these things
00:56:17 --> 00:56:19 could change in a moment. Again, we saw that with COVID.
00:56:20 --> 00:56:25 But I did that. And so instead of saying my plan for the four years had been
00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 to go to med school, and I called my mom and I was like, I don't know if right
00:56:29 --> 00:56:32 now is the time for med school. And so she's like, well, don't go.
00:56:33 --> 00:56:37 Which I appreciate her for saying that at the time as it really kind of just opened my world up.
00:56:37 --> 00:56:42 And so I took some time off and I went to teach in Louisiana there.
00:56:42 --> 00:56:46 I met some social workers that were really doing a lot of good work and I was
00:56:46 --> 00:56:51 inspired by that work Which I then pivoted from going to med school to school
00:56:51 --> 00:56:54 of social work where I did that work in New York City.
00:56:55 --> 00:56:59 That was really important in that it introduced me eventually where I did my
00:56:59 --> 00:57:03 internship, my second year of graduate school up there at the National Urban League.
00:57:03 --> 00:57:07 And so to do this work intimately in North Carolina with the NAACP,
00:57:07 --> 00:57:11 then go to the National Urban League where I focus, yes, on social work,
00:57:11 --> 00:57:13 but specifically workforce development.
00:57:13 --> 00:57:18 And I was just really seeing how my first year when I was doing therapy and
00:57:18 --> 00:57:21 working with communities, everybody came in. I'm hungry.
00:57:21 --> 00:57:25 I got bills to pay. I have responsibility. Right. And it just really showed
00:57:25 --> 00:57:30 me as this budding professional, if you will, the importance of the workforce.
00:57:30 --> 00:57:34 And so to work in that workforce development department nationally,
00:57:34 --> 00:57:37 but based in New York, was National Urban League really opened my eyes.
00:57:37 --> 00:57:42 And so after being in New York for a few years, I needed to go back down south.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:46 I just missed it. My family, everything. I'm a southerner at heart.
00:57:46 --> 00:57:49 And so I came back down south and I was like, I really want to stick with this
00:57:49 --> 00:57:50 workforce development stuff.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:55 So I just started looking for jobs and I found one that happened to be in conservation.
00:57:55 --> 00:57:59 Didn't know what the National Park Service was, let alone other agencies like
00:57:59 --> 00:58:01 the Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:06 The list goes on. But I very quickly became very intimately working with them
00:58:06 --> 00:58:11 as partners and just trying to get young people, young black folks jobs in these spaces.
00:58:11 --> 00:58:15 As I quickly saw that, hey, there's a lot of good opportunities here that we
00:58:15 --> 00:58:17 simply don't even know about. Right.
00:58:18 --> 00:58:22 Opportunities to be leaders in spaces, opportunities to really make an impact
00:58:22 --> 00:58:27 on policy and interpretation and the representation of what our people come
00:58:27 --> 00:58:29 to know and what history books look like.
00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 All of that. And I was like, this is all right here in these couple of agencies.
00:58:32 --> 00:58:33 He's like, it's really powerful.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:37 And so I didn't, again, I didn't know anything about it other than I just wanted
00:58:37 --> 00:58:42 to help people get jobs because I was inspired by that work with the National Urban League.
00:58:42 --> 00:58:44 But I had certainly found my footing in some places.
00:58:45 --> 00:58:49 It's been over 10 years and I've continued to be in the space and kind of my
00:58:49 --> 00:58:54 opportunities have grown as I've been able to join different boards and things like that.
00:58:54 --> 00:58:58 But then a few years back, I was able to join National Parks Conservation Association.
00:58:58 --> 00:59:02 And so for me, this was me doing the walk that I had been telling our young
00:59:02 --> 00:59:04 people to do in those internships.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:07 And that before I was just advocating for them to be in space, right?
00:59:07 --> 00:59:11 You can do this job. Look at this. How do we advance your career?
00:59:11 --> 00:59:14 But it's now it's like, okay, well, I have this policy background.
00:59:14 --> 00:59:15 I kept going to school, right?
00:59:15 --> 00:59:19 I have this policy background. I have these connections. I have an understanding.
00:59:20 --> 00:59:25 This is my responsibility to use it. And so MPCA was the opportunity for me to do that.
00:59:25 --> 00:59:29 And so I do it thinking about parks. Not everybody still knows about parks.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:32 Nobody in my family can tell you what I do. Maybe my husband,
00:59:32 --> 00:59:33 but that's the extent of it, right?
00:59:34 --> 00:59:37 And they're just like, what, what do you mean you're going to a park?
00:59:37 --> 00:59:39 Are you okay? My grandmother's 92.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:41 The first time I told her I was going to the park, probably the last time I
00:59:41 --> 00:59:43 told her I was going to a park. She's fearful, right?
00:59:44 --> 00:59:48 Because she was, you know, in high school, five of her best friends were lynched.
00:59:48 --> 00:59:51 And so like they just hear woods and trees and things like that.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:54 So carrying all that on my back and say, what do I do?
00:59:54 --> 00:59:59 And so while I do advocate for these parks, I'm intentional about advocating
00:59:59 --> 01:00:00 for cultural resources.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:02 Said before I was planning to go to med school.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 So I have a deep passion for science, natural resources, things like that.
01:00:06 --> 01:00:10 But I knew that me looking the way I do, coming with the background that I come
01:00:10 --> 01:00:15 with, that for me to step into this role, that I had a certain task at hand
01:00:15 --> 01:00:16 and I was really on the cultural side.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:20 And so that's how I've been able to kind of drive this work for the last few
01:00:20 --> 01:00:23 years that I've been at the organization and hopefully continue to find ways
01:00:23 --> 01:00:26 to embed these values in the work that we do every day.
01:00:27 --> 01:00:31 So how many states do you cover in your work? Eight states.
01:00:32 --> 01:00:38 All right. President Theodore Roosevelt viewed the parks as irreplaceable heirlooms,
01:00:38 --> 01:00:43 a sacred heritage to be protected, not exploited for short-term gain.
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 Why do you agree with him?
01:00:46 --> 01:00:51 These places are special when it comes to the resources that are there,
01:00:51 --> 01:00:54 when it comes to the stories, the people, the people that protected the land,
01:00:54 --> 01:00:56 the people that cultivated the land,
01:00:56 --> 01:00:59 the people that still live on the land, the stories that are there,
01:00:59 --> 01:01:02 the connections that are there. I think it's really important.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:06 And so these parks are supposed to be places, moments in time where we say this
01:01:06 --> 01:01:10 has impacted the United States. This has impacted the people.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:14 And because of that, these are places that everybody should know, right?
01:01:14 --> 01:01:19 Now there's 433 parks across the system with across my eight regions.
01:01:19 --> 01:01:23 I have a little over 60, but I also have some national heritage areas as well.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:27 And so for me, it's like, hey, we need to know the stories of these places as
01:01:27 --> 01:01:31 they really do impact us. And so I agree with him in that.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:36 Unfortunately, we don't see the same love and treatment towards all of those
01:01:36 --> 01:01:39 places and stories. And then there's even more stories that need to be better
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42 told or more accurately told. And that's the work that I'm doing.
01:01:43 --> 01:01:46 But yes, we have this groundwork, this framework, if you will,
01:01:46 --> 01:01:49 to say that these places matter and it's important for each and every one of
01:01:49 --> 01:01:51 us to know about them and protect them.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:57 Yeah. How much, You kind of touched on a little bit with your 20 questions answered,
01:01:57 --> 01:02:02 but how much damage was done by those toward the national parks?
01:02:02 --> 01:02:06 It was catastrophic. We've seen cuts in positions.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:10 I'll say this first. In 2024, we had the highest visitation we've ever seen
01:02:10 --> 01:02:12 to national parks, right?
01:02:12 --> 01:02:15 Visitation at all-time high, record-breaking numbers at just about every park.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:19 So people are getting outside. People are coming internationally.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:22 People are going to their parks. They love their parks. We've seen it.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:23 It's quite literally in the data.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:28 And so starting in February, well, January, but the biggest cut was seen in February.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:34 We saw thousands of people losing positions in the agency. I mean,
01:02:34 --> 01:02:37 and it didn't stop. So that, we saw cuts in funding.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:42 Parks were just like, oh, I had this plan. Couldn't do it. You mentioned Selma to Montgomery.
01:02:42 --> 01:02:45 There was a big anniversary last year that we planned to celebrate.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:47 We've been working on it for months.
01:02:48 --> 01:02:51 Then last minute, Parks like, we can't do it. We can't do the security. It's worth the risk.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:54 We had people that were young folks when they first did the march,
01:02:54 --> 01:02:57 and now they're about to do it again, and they're bringing their grandchildren.
01:02:57 --> 01:03:01 And so to say, hey, we can't do this anymore. It hurt, but we couldn't because
01:03:01 --> 01:03:04 the funding just wasn't there, right? So we've seen it in that way.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:09 We've seen just with different executive orders and secretary orders,
01:03:09 --> 01:03:13 what can be interpreted at a park, what's there available in the bookstore,
01:03:13 --> 01:03:18 what's available for resources for people to have, and just kind of engaging in that conversation,
01:03:18 --> 01:03:23 especially in places like my civil world parks or civil rights parks or reconstruction
01:03:23 --> 01:03:26 area, like different, And, you know, these things that aren't,
01:03:26 --> 01:03:29 they don't always paint us in the best light, but it's important for us to know
01:03:29 --> 01:03:31 that they folks have been silenced.
01:03:31 --> 01:03:34 And so that's a big piece of what we're doing right now, combating erasure that's
01:03:34 --> 01:03:37 happened through those executive and secretarial orders.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:42 But the biggest thing I would say is funding as it relates again to the staffing
01:03:42 --> 01:03:46 itself and then programs because they've just ceased. Yeah.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:51 Why do you think the, well, you kind of touched on a little bit.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:55 Why do you think the parks have become more popular?
01:03:55 --> 01:04:01 Because it was like, you know, I know that, you know, people used to always
01:04:01 --> 01:04:06 talk about, you know, going to like some of the big ones like Grand Canyon or
01:04:06 --> 01:04:09 Yosemite or, you know, something like that.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:16 But, you know, a lot of times people don't realize that some of the historical
01:04:16 --> 01:04:21 sites that are in respective states fall under the National Park Service.
01:04:21 --> 01:04:24 Yeah. But it seemed as though that, like you said.
01:04:25 --> 01:04:31 And I guess maybe it was kind of a backlash or, you know, for lack of a better word, from COVID.
01:04:32 --> 01:04:35 And people were like, OK, we're going to rediscover these things.
01:04:36 --> 01:04:41 What did the data tell you about that? Does that correlate with what I'm saying?
01:04:42 --> 01:04:44 Or was there some other factors?
01:04:44 --> 01:04:48 I think it depends on the data that you're looking at. But I agree.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:52 I would say kind of looking big picture. Yes. A lot of COVID people are like,
01:04:52 --> 01:04:53 this is a way to get outside.
01:04:54 --> 01:04:59 Most parks. I won't say most plus. A lot of parks don't charge fees to get in.
01:04:59 --> 01:05:00 So it's relatively inexpensive.
01:05:01 --> 01:05:05 And in that way, it can be accessible, even though some parks are really far
01:05:05 --> 01:05:08 and it can be difficult to get in or they do have fees and things like that.
01:05:08 --> 01:05:10 So there's a balance there.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:15 But I think when I think about black and brown communities, we're just talking about it more.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:18 Right. It's just like, hey, did you know that this was here?
01:05:18 --> 01:05:22 Or I even speak for myself. I'm in Atlanta. I can't tell you how many family
01:05:22 --> 01:05:25 reunions I had at Martin Luther King Jr.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:28 National Historical Park. I had no idea that it was a part of the national park
01:05:28 --> 01:05:30 system, right? To your point.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:33 And so there's a bit more of intentionality that's there.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:39 And you're seeing parks come up, not to like name drop, but like Joy Reid and Roland Powell.
01:05:39 --> 01:05:42 They're all talking about parks now. I'm just like, what is this?
01:05:42 --> 01:05:44 Let me look at it. Oh, there's one in my backyard.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:48 Oh, there's one in my backyard and it's about somebody that looks like me.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:50 What's the story there? Let me go find out, right?
01:05:50 --> 01:05:54 And we've also had the creation of a lot of new parks over, let's say,
01:05:54 --> 01:05:59 the last 10, 15 years that are more representative of us and our story.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:03 So I think people are just finding connections that weren't physically there
01:06:03 --> 01:06:05 before that they didn't know or maybe didn't have the arrowhead,
01:06:06 --> 01:06:07 if folks recognize that.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:12 But there's been more things pulling them in to say, hey, this space is for
01:06:12 --> 01:06:15 you. Even if you're coming from far, you're coming from right down the road.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:20 Yeah. So you mentioned the Martin Luther King Jr.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:24 Historical site. What is the significance of designating that?
01:06:25 --> 01:06:27 Because at one point it was just a historical site.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:34 And then before Congressman Lewis passed away, he was able to get the legislation
01:06:34 --> 01:06:37 passed to elevate it to a national park.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:39 So what's the significance in that?
01:06:40 --> 01:06:45 Sure, sure. So it was, with that first designation, it was a part of the National
01:06:45 --> 01:06:47 Park Service, yes, but it was limited.
01:06:47 --> 01:06:52 So the redesignation allowed for more sites to be a part of it, right?
01:06:52 --> 01:06:56 So right now, as it stands, we have the firehouse, we have historic Ebenezer,
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 we have where Martin Luther King Jr.
01:06:59 --> 01:07:02 Was born and where he was raised in that house. Over the last couple of years,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:05 we've, the National Park Service acquired with the help of Robert Smith,
01:07:06 --> 01:07:09 tech billionaire, the family home. So where Martin and Coretta raised their children.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:14 And so you're able to tell a fuller story, right? The staff that's there,
01:07:14 --> 01:07:16 the superintendent, they have a new superintendent, Reggie Chappell,
01:07:17 --> 01:07:19 Judy Forte. She just retired a few years back.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:23 Black woman, black man. But they are saying, hey, community,
01:07:23 --> 01:07:27 we need to really lift this up. And so it's on historic Auburn Avenue.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:31 And so really showing the power that was in Auburn Avenue. There's a lot of
01:07:31 --> 01:07:35 folks that were business owners and folks that thrived in the area, Black people, right?
01:07:35 --> 01:07:40 And to show how they cared and poured into community. And so that redesignation
01:07:40 --> 01:07:46 allowed for just a fuller, more powerful story to show the impact to the left of Historic Ebenezer.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:50 There's also the King Center, which Bernice King, Martin Luther King Jr.'s daughter,
01:07:50 --> 01:07:54 she runs. And it's a really good way to complement that story, too.
01:07:54 --> 01:07:59 So also to show the beauty of partnership, right? It just happens to be King's
01:07:59 --> 01:08:03 daughter, which I think is beautiful. We see the same thing with the Megger
01:08:03 --> 01:08:07 Evers Institute in Jackson, Mississippi, where Rena Evers is leading that effort.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:10 But it just speaks to the power and the fullness of the story.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:15 And we've been able to make so much progress in the telling of that work because
01:08:15 --> 01:08:17 of those partnerships and because of those people.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:21 So it's exciting to see that re-designation, but also that continued passion
01:08:21 --> 01:08:25 to share the story of the King family, but also the community family,
01:08:25 --> 01:08:29 the community as a whole and the family there. Yeah, yeah.
01:08:29 --> 01:08:34 It's really amazing. I tell people the story. I don't know if it's true, so you can.
01:08:35 --> 01:08:38 Tell me if I was, you know, exaggerating a little bit.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:45 But I always say that the Ebenezer, the new Ebenezer church is the only church that the U.S.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:48 Government has ever built. Now, I don't know if that's a true statement,
01:08:48 --> 01:08:53 but I say that to people that's like, oh, wow, you know, just to kind of mess with folks.
01:08:53 --> 01:08:58 I don't know. I don't know. But I'll give you an Ebenezer fact that you could add to that.
01:08:58 --> 01:09:01 I'm not sure about that, but I can certainly look into it and confirm it for you.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:05 But since its founding in the late 1800s Ebenezer's
01:09:05 --> 01:09:09 only had five pastors so starting you
01:09:09 --> 01:09:12 know many years ago without it wasn't a part of the king family
01:09:12 --> 01:09:17 but then grandfather king so well his last name was Williams and then daddy
01:09:17 --> 01:09:22 king or we affectionately call him daddy king right but mlk senior and then
01:09:22 --> 01:09:27 you know you have to Raphael Warnock now like that's pretty powerful to see that
01:09:27 --> 01:09:32 over this church has meant so much to so many people and so many community members far and close,
01:09:32 --> 01:09:35 and for it to only have five pastors in that time is pretty impactful.
01:09:36 --> 01:09:43 So it's really cool to go to the Ebenezer where Dr.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:44 King Jr.
01:09:45 --> 01:09:50 And the daddy, I guess, was the senior pastor still there, but to go in and
01:09:50 --> 01:09:54 then to sit there and then listen to his voice in the chamber,
01:09:55 --> 01:09:57 that's a very, very powerful experience.
01:09:57 --> 01:10:00 And I encourage everybody to do that because
01:10:00 --> 01:10:04 it kind of sits you in so this and it doesn't play like I have a dream speech
01:10:04 --> 01:10:09 or anything it plays like sermons that he actually gave at the church so you
01:10:09 --> 01:10:15 get that ambiance of actually being at the Ebenezer Baptist Church during the
01:10:15 --> 01:10:20 time he was preaching there so I think that's an incredible thing and I'm glad that.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:25 The elevation allows you to get more. So when you say the family house,
01:10:25 --> 01:10:32 so that's that is that the one on English Avenue or in that English Avenue district or.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:36 Right. That's the one. It's in Vining or in Vine City.
01:10:36 --> 01:10:40 Right. So that's where he was with Coretta. So that one's not online yet.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:43 They're still figuring that piece out. Like there was a public comment period.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:47 Like this is three miles away from where everything else is.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:50 Families still live here what is parking going
01:10:50 --> 01:10:53 to look like what does transportation look like a lot of people that
01:10:53 --> 01:10:56 go to martin luther king jr national historical park are older folks right
01:10:56 --> 01:10:59 so like how do we care for our elders in this space how
01:10:59 --> 01:11:02 do we make sure that we're not disrupting community so they're
01:11:02 --> 01:11:05 still figuring all that stuff out but the most popular one
01:11:05 --> 01:11:08 right now if you will was where king was raised and
01:11:08 --> 01:11:11 if you go on the right now it's close but it'll open back
01:11:11 --> 01:11:14 up fairly soon they're like if you do the
01:11:14 --> 01:11:17 interpret if you do the tour of the home they're like yeah when
01:11:17 --> 01:11:20 he was a baby he slept in that drawer right there right and so they've done
01:11:20 --> 01:11:23 a really good job of keeping things as they were and
01:11:23 --> 01:11:26 again that helps to have the insight of of the
01:11:26 --> 01:11:30 the family there and Coretta was even a big part of making sure that things
01:11:30 --> 01:11:33 looked the way that they needed to and the interpretation was done right before
01:11:33 --> 01:11:37 her passing too so a lot of work has gone into that but to your point to be
01:11:37 --> 01:11:44 able to sit in the pews to look and see even the stained glass that's there to see the dolls and how,
01:11:44 --> 01:11:46 you know, family dinner was really important.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:48 It's set up that way for a Sunday dinner.
01:11:48 --> 01:11:51 Just things like that really kind of take you there. And it's really special.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:53 And it's all free. Yeah, exactly.
01:11:55 --> 01:11:58 Talk about the Emmett Till project in Mississippi. You mentioned the Megger
01:11:58 --> 01:12:01 Evers project, but talk about the Emmett Till project.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:09 Yeah, Emmett Till, man, that's heavy, right? Maybe because I'm a mom of a little boy.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:12 This is, it's a passion project of mine.
01:12:12 --> 01:12:17 It's one of our newer parks in the Southeast, and it certainly take a lot of work.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:21 This year, well, no, we're in January now. So this past year,
01:12:21 --> 01:12:26 we were able to take a commemorative train ride from Chicago to Mississippi.
01:12:26 --> 01:12:31 And we were joined by Reverend Wheeler Parker, who was the best friend and cousin of Emmett.
01:12:31 --> 01:12:36 And they took that train ride down together 70, well, this year will be 71 years ago.
01:12:36 --> 01:12:40 But 70 years ago, so him and his wife joined us.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:44 And it's powerful. But this park, it is headquartered, if you will,
01:12:44 --> 01:12:45 in Sumner, Mississippi.
01:12:46 --> 01:12:50 But it has three sites to it. One being Robert's Temple, which is in Chicago.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:57 And then the Grayball Landing where Emmett was found by a young boy that was fishing.
01:12:57 --> 01:13:02 So we have those three sites. It's appropriately named after Emmett and his
01:13:02 --> 01:13:08 mother, because yes, it was a tragedy that happened to Emmett in August of 1955.
01:13:09 --> 01:13:13 But Mamie's work was just getting started, right? And so just to lift up the
01:13:13 --> 01:13:15 work and advocacy that she did there.
01:13:16 --> 01:13:21 And so that park is important, but something that I think is really needed and
01:13:21 --> 01:13:24 special is that myself working in the Southeast region,
01:13:25 --> 01:13:28 Crystal Davis, who's the Midwest regional manager, so regional director,
01:13:29 --> 01:13:33 so she's working to support efforts in Chicago. So both of us are Black women.
01:13:33 --> 01:13:37 Both of us are like, no, this has to be done appropriately. So being very intentional
01:13:37 --> 01:13:41 about that and just lifting it up and to show the connection.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:44 So we were constantly talking about, you know, people leaving Mississippi,
01:13:44 --> 01:13:49 going to Chicago, the Great Migration, the impacts there, the connections there.
01:13:49 --> 01:13:53 Talking about, you know, a lot of people that were in Chicago were coming from
01:13:53 --> 01:13:56 Mississippi, like a lot of big names that we know about. Right.
01:13:56 --> 01:14:00 Mamie herself was born in Mississippi. They have roots there.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:03 We talk about the closeness between the Till family and.
01:14:03 --> 01:14:07 That was in Chicago and leaders like Fred Hampton. We talk about the fact when
01:14:07 --> 01:14:12 Mamie was down in Mississippi, how she had connections and Medgar Evers was very,
01:14:12 --> 01:14:16 very much right there and present and helping to find witnesses during that
01:14:16 --> 01:14:21 trial about the leaders like TRM Howard, who did, you know, a speech shortly.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:26 He was one, keeping Mamie safe during the trial because Sumner was then,
01:14:26 --> 01:14:30 I get in trouble when I say that it still is, but I'll say it was then a sundown
01:14:30 --> 01:14:34 town and so Mamie couldn't stay in Sumner where the trial was at the Tallahatchie
01:14:34 --> 01:14:38 Courthouse so she was going to Mound Bayou talking about the significance and
01:14:38 --> 01:14:43 the importance of Mound Bayou and the safety that black folks had in that space but then to have Dr.
01:14:43 --> 01:14:48 T.R.M. Howard leading the way that he was and how he would you know have a he
01:14:48 --> 01:14:52 would say a speech in Montgomery and then less than 100 days later there you
01:14:52 --> 01:14:55 have Rosa Parks and those efforts getting started for the bus boycott there.
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 So just the connections between people.
01:14:58 --> 01:15:02 And so using this park to say, Emmett, like what happened to you was tragic,
01:15:02 --> 01:15:05 but we understand and we got you right.
01:15:05 --> 01:15:08 And we're going to take care of this story. And the same for his mom,
01:15:08 --> 01:15:10 because there's a lot of sacrifice.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:14 Sacrifice I wish that Emmett or Mamie didn't have to face, but to not,
01:15:14 --> 01:15:18 you know, lose sight of that and make it a point to continue to elevate and
01:15:18 --> 01:15:22 share the sacrifice and the struggles that folks went to so that we can,
01:15:22 --> 01:15:23 And, you know, live a better day to day.
01:15:24 --> 01:15:32 Yeah, my dad and his sister were part of that migration from Mississippi to Chicago for me.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:35 Okay. And they actually, they didn't get all the way to Chicago.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:36 They got to Centralia, Illinois.
01:15:37 --> 01:15:42 Okay. Because my grandma met somebody else and he worked for the railroad,
01:15:43 --> 01:15:46 Illinois Central Railroad, at their maintenance depot was in Centralia.
01:15:47 --> 01:15:51 But my dad eventually ended up in Chicago and then that's where I was born.
01:15:52 --> 01:15:56 And so of course, part of our experience growing up is we learn about Emmett Till.
01:15:57 --> 01:16:01 So naturally, when I told my dad, I think I'm going to Jackson State University
01:16:01 --> 01:16:03 to go to college, and he was like,
01:16:04 --> 01:16:06 you're going back to Mississippi. We were trying to get away from Mississippi.
01:16:06 --> 01:16:07 You know what I'm saying?
01:16:08 --> 01:16:11 So, you know, and I ended up spending 34 years of my life down there,
01:16:11 --> 01:16:15 but, and then I had the privilege of meeting Ms.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:18 Mamie at the, cause my aunt is named Mamie too.
01:16:18 --> 01:16:21 And, you know, to meet her and
01:16:21 --> 01:16:27 just, just, you know, just to be in her presence and talk about her son.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:30 And then we were dealing with a family member of hers who was,
01:16:31 --> 01:16:34 who was, we think was murdered, but that's a whole another podcast for another day.
01:16:35 --> 01:16:39 I may actually do a podcast about that case down the road.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:43 But, you know, just, just to be in her presence and stuff and,
01:16:43 --> 01:16:48 and the courage that she displayed during that whole time, it's just,
01:16:48 --> 01:16:53 it's, it's, it's a tragic story, but it's a, it's a compelling story.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:56 And it's something that we as people need to know.
01:16:56 --> 01:17:01 And I'm glad that you and others are connected to make sure that that story
01:17:01 --> 01:17:04 is told and preserved. I think that's key.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:08 Because a lot of people don't understand, you know, it's like,
01:17:08 --> 01:17:13 you know, we talk about the parks and because that falls under the Department of Interior, right?
01:17:14 --> 01:17:18 Right. Yeah. So, you know, it's like either they say, well, this is white folk
01:17:18 --> 01:17:20 stuff or Native American stuff, right?
01:17:21 --> 01:17:27 It don't really concern Black folks. So, you know, the fact that you and Ms.
01:17:27 --> 01:17:32 Davis and others are engaged in this kind of work and showing the significance
01:17:32 --> 01:17:38 of the power of the Park Service to tell our stories, I think is very,
01:17:38 --> 01:17:42 very important. So that leads me to my next to last question.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:48 What efforts are being made to get more African Americans involved in this conservation work?
01:17:49 --> 01:17:54 Yeah, I mean, we've been talking about the cultural resource side of it, right?
01:17:54 --> 01:17:59 And so I'll make a point to say that we are in deep conversation with groups
01:17:59 --> 01:18:03 like the Association of African American Museums or Carter G.
01:18:03 --> 01:18:05 Woodson's organization, ASALA.
01:18:06 --> 01:18:08 And so to make sure that we're all a part of those conversations,
01:18:08 --> 01:18:12 right? And bringing in other, we say, big green organizations,
01:18:12 --> 01:18:14 but folks that have a responsibility.
01:18:14 --> 01:18:18 And you find a lot of Black folks who have been in the space and are like, oh, I'm here.
01:18:18 --> 01:18:20 Let me use my position and power to do that, right?
01:18:20 --> 01:18:24 So I think of Dr. Jocelyn Imani, who's with Trust for Public Land now.
01:18:24 --> 01:18:26 She used to be with the National Park Service.
01:18:26 --> 01:18:29 Think about people like Brent Legs, who's working with the National Trust for
01:18:29 --> 01:18:30 Historic Preservation, right?
01:18:31 --> 01:18:36 They just restored Nina Simone's house in North Carolina. And so it's just people
01:18:36 --> 01:18:39 that are saying, I am in a position of power and responsibility.
01:18:40 --> 01:18:43 What am I going to do with it, right? So doing that and lifting that up.
01:18:44 --> 01:18:48 But then you also have the natural resources side of it or the environmental pieces.
01:18:48 --> 01:18:52 And so, you know, we name names like Dr. Robert Bullard and Dr.
01:18:52 --> 01:18:56 Darcelle Taylor and people who are really leading the charge for the EJ work
01:18:56 --> 01:18:58 and to show we were impacted by this work.
01:18:59 --> 01:19:02 We're still impacted by this work. Like we have nonprofits like the Hip Hop
01:19:02 --> 01:19:06 Caucus where Reverend Yearwood is lifting a voice to this and say,
01:19:06 --> 01:19:08 hey, this stuff matters to you.
01:19:08 --> 01:19:12 This isn't just to your point. This isn't just their problem or their history.
01:19:12 --> 01:19:16 And they aren't the people that have resources and they aren't the people that are knowledgeable.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:19 It's our responsibility to do it, too, because if not us, who?
01:19:19 --> 01:19:24 Right. People are thinking about us and prioritizing us in a way that we can't.
01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 And in fact, it's our responsibility to do it because we don't.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:31 They won't. And so just naming that. And so, as I said, with,
01:19:31 --> 01:19:35 you know, with Roland Powell and Joy Reid, I mean, she just did a book on Medgar Evers, right?
01:19:35 --> 01:19:39 Like, these people are naming parks. And so we're finding ways to make it more
01:19:39 --> 01:19:43 relevant to all the generations. And I think that's really going to be important,
01:19:43 --> 01:19:46 because we got a lot of barriers against us, unfortunately.
01:19:46 --> 01:19:51 They're not new, right? I say that the reason we've seen so many attacks against
01:19:51 --> 01:19:53 so many good things is because we did them well.
01:19:53 --> 01:19:57 So like dang these folks when they come together they actually know what they're
01:19:57 --> 01:20:02 doing And so it's going to take more of that But there's a lot of opportunity and hope in that.
01:20:03 --> 01:20:05 I hope that answered your question. Yeah, yeah, I did.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:12 But it kind of led me to a follow-up. So is there any kind of thing with the HBCUs?
01:20:12 --> 01:20:16 Is there any kind of connection there? Or is that something that's being explored?
01:20:16 --> 01:20:18 I would say that would fall in
01:20:18 --> 01:20:23 your lap because a lot of HBCUs would be in the states that you work in.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:31 Right. But is there some kind of program? Because I remember when I was in the state legislature,
01:20:31 --> 01:20:40 NBCSL meetings, we had the USDA come in and they had set up a program to get
01:20:40 --> 01:20:44 Black students, especially. 1890 scholars. Huh?
01:20:45 --> 01:20:48 The 1890 scholars program. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:20:48 --> 01:20:53 And so, you know, it was just, so is there something similar to that connected
01:20:53 --> 01:20:55 with the work that you're doing?
01:20:55 --> 01:21:00 Yeah, yeah. So in a couple of ways. Prior to last year, there was funding.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:02 So on the National Park Service side, I'll start there.
01:21:03 --> 01:21:08 There were opportunities for the National Park Service to provide grants to
01:21:08 --> 01:21:12 HBCUs to help with some of that historic preservation work, which was really important.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:16 We also have some parks that are centered within an HBCU.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:20 So Tuskegee, for example, they have the George Washington Cauldron Museum.
01:21:20 --> 01:21:24 They also have the Booker T. Washington Home, known as the Oaks right there
01:21:24 --> 01:21:28 on campus. Their headquarters is adjacent to the to the campus in and of itself.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:34 We we see intentional partnerships with places like maybe the story isn't connected,
01:21:34 --> 01:21:38 but making a point to have connection with the students with like Fort Monroe
01:21:38 --> 01:21:41 and Hampton or Norfolk State just because of proximity. Right.
01:21:42 --> 01:21:43 So things like that are happening.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:49 But I'll say, too, with my position before I came to MPCA, I was fortunate to
01:21:49 --> 01:21:53 work with the chief of youth programs and created the HBCUI program.
01:21:53 --> 01:21:56 So Historically Black Colleges and Universities Internship, right?
01:21:56 --> 01:22:01 And so we were recruiting students solely from HBCUs and placing them at parks.
01:22:01 --> 01:22:06 When the program first got started, it was sites that focused on cultural resources.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:11 But over time, we just hit year 14. We said, hey, it's time that this evolved
01:22:11 --> 01:22:14 because our students are evolving. They're not just interested in journalism
01:22:14 --> 01:22:15 and history, which is great.
01:22:15 --> 01:22:18 If that's what you want to do, do it, right? We need more of those folks.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:23 But if you're interested in engineering or you're interested in geography or
01:22:23 --> 01:22:26 archaeology, like there's an opportunity for you.
01:22:26 --> 01:22:29 You're also needed in these spaces. And so they're working over the summer.
01:22:29 --> 01:22:33 And what's special about that program is when they finish their program,
01:22:33 --> 01:22:36 after you achieve a certain amount of hours, they were getting a hiring authority.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:40 And so if anybody's ever applied for federal jobs, if you're not a vet,
01:22:40 --> 01:22:42 it's almost impossible to get hired.
01:22:42 --> 01:22:44 So those hiring authorities made it a lot easier.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:48 There's a direct hiring authority. There's a public land core hiring authority.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 It made it a whole lot easier for those students to go through the program,
01:22:53 --> 01:22:56 graduate, and then get a federal position within the National Park Service.
01:22:56 --> 01:22:59 And so just really excited to kind of see those things come together.
01:22:59 --> 01:23:00 There's been a lot of successes.
01:23:01 --> 01:23:06 I think the beautiful part of HBCUI, I'm biased, but, and that some of the people
01:23:06 --> 01:23:09 that we recruited when they were sophomores, juniors, seniors in the program
01:23:09 --> 01:23:13 are now the supervisors for some of the current interns that are working.
01:23:13 --> 01:23:16 So it's something that they believed in, they're passionate about.
01:23:16 --> 01:23:20 Me being in my position with MPCA, why I don't run the program anymore.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:25 A lot of my partners at the park, the Rangers are my former students, right?
01:23:25 --> 01:23:29 And so it's really full circle and it's really personal for me, but it's exciting.
01:23:29 --> 01:23:33 And it just also just shows the power of HBCUs because going to these spaces
01:23:33 --> 01:23:39 and being the only person, you know, or going to these very remote spaces where it's just like...
01:23:39 --> 01:23:42 Where are we? What are we doing? This is what they talked about in the history
01:23:42 --> 01:23:46 books. You know what I mean? Like, I'm seeing it live and in living color.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:50 Like, but to say I can do this, right? Because I know I have community,
01:23:50 --> 01:23:53 whether it be school, whether it be the folks, you know, from the program or
01:23:53 --> 01:23:55 mentors or things like that. And so just really exciting.
01:23:55 --> 01:24:00 But yeah, there's a few efforts that are still happening to make sure that those connections are there.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:03 And then I myself with MPCA, call a spade a spade.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:09 We are a very white organization. I mean, you can just see it if you look at the staff page, right?
01:24:09 --> 01:24:14 But to your point, these HBCUs are right in my backyard and I live in Atlanta,
01:24:14 --> 01:24:17 right? So to say I can't get to an HBCU is absurd.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:21 And so I make a point to do programming at HBCUs as often as possible,
01:24:22 --> 01:24:24 talk to interns, professors, things like that to make sure they're connected
01:24:24 --> 01:24:29 with the parks in the area and that they are a part of that work to advocate for these places.
01:24:30 --> 01:24:34 Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, Jackson State has a school of engineering.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:36 I just thought I'd throw that out there. I didn't know if you...
01:24:36 --> 01:24:39 That's right, that's right. But we've got a lot of folks from Jackson State
01:24:39 --> 01:24:44 that end up at New Orleans Jazz because that band is pretty bad, man.
01:24:44 --> 01:24:48 It's pretty bad. And they want to end up playing for that park.
01:24:48 --> 01:24:50 That's right. That's right.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:56 Last question. Oh, no, before I ask this question, I had a woman on,
01:24:57 --> 01:25:02 I guess, a couple of years ago now, Rachel Kerr Williams, and she's kind of
01:25:02 --> 01:25:05 taken over the preservation of a black cemetery.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:10 Now, I think a lot of the stuff that she was dealing with was with land trust preservation.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:17 Does the Park Service get engaged with any black cemetery preservation or is
01:25:17 --> 01:25:19 that strictly under land trust?
01:25:19 --> 01:25:24 It can. It can get dicey. The first one that pops in mind is Vicksburg,
01:25:24 --> 01:25:26 right? And you're talking about the U.S. color troops.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:30 There's more work that can be done. It really just kind of depends.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:35 Now, that's something that's come up to me. One of my parks in North Carolina is Fort Raleigh.
01:25:36 --> 01:25:41 And so we had an HBCU intern that was working there and she found out that there was a black cemetery.
01:25:42 --> 01:25:44 And right now it's under either the airport or the aquarium,
01:25:45 --> 01:25:47 something like that. It's just like light and erasure.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:51 And so there's a lot of conversations that need to happen over that.
01:25:51 --> 01:25:55 Right now, I would probably say the biggest thing is going to be U.S. colored troops.
01:25:55 --> 01:25:59 And so it's not that it's a special cemetery for them.
01:25:59 --> 01:26:02 It's just there happen to be black folks that are there where they're honoring
01:26:02 --> 01:26:06 other folks that have fallen and are buried. But more work can certainly be done there.
01:26:07 --> 01:26:14 Yeah, I attended a ceremony where they re-intern some black union soldiers at the.
01:26:16 --> 01:26:24 Grand Gulf Cemetery in Gibson. Yeah. Yeah. So I was just curious about that. All right.
01:26:25 --> 01:26:31 Excuse me. Let's close it out with this. Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
01:26:33 --> 01:26:38 They're coming at us so hard. So we must have figured out how to do this.
01:26:39 --> 01:26:45 Yeah. Yeah. I understand. All right. So, Dr. Goddard, first of all,
01:26:45 --> 01:26:47 thank you for doing this. Of course.
01:26:47 --> 01:26:54 You know, when I came across your profile, I said, this is a discussion we need
01:26:54 --> 01:26:57 to have because I'm all about history.
01:26:58 --> 01:27:03 And, you know, the work that you have been doing and the Park Service directly
01:27:03 --> 01:27:05 has been doing is really,
01:27:05 --> 01:27:11 really commendable in helping us tell our story to remind the nation that our
01:27:11 --> 01:27:13 story is a part of the overall American story.
01:27:14 --> 01:27:19 Absolutely. So if people and you're in is the National Parks Conservation Association
01:27:19 --> 01:27:21 is the nonprofit, right?
01:27:22 --> 01:27:27 Correct. So how can people get in touch? How can people donate, get involved?
01:27:27 --> 01:27:30 How can they reach you? Just go ahead and do your spiel.
01:27:31 --> 01:27:35 Sure, sure. So we have a robust communications team.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:38 They're working around the clock. It's a pretty big department that we have here.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:43 And so npca.org, you can find quite a bit of information. If you want to email
01:27:43 --> 01:27:47 me, you can always reach out to me that way, epreston at npca.org.
01:27:47 --> 01:27:51 You can give me a phone call if you need to, 404-399-4500.
01:27:52 --> 01:27:56 I try to make myself accessible to the folks that want to have these conversations and do the work.
01:27:57 --> 01:27:59 Or there's new opportunity. People give me calls all the time to say,
01:28:00 --> 01:28:03 I got an idea for a park. Like, let's do it, right? Let's have those conversations.
01:28:03 --> 01:28:08 But if you want to get involved with advocacy, you can quite literally go to
01:28:08 --> 01:28:10 the same website, mtca.org, and put advocacy.
01:28:11 --> 01:28:14 And all the legislation that's out there, if you want to write a member to Congress,
01:28:14 --> 01:28:17 you want to figure out how to just engage and use your voice,
01:28:17 --> 01:28:19 all those resources are there. It's all free.
01:28:19 --> 01:28:23 If you want to donate, you can do that, too. But not to take money away from
01:28:23 --> 01:28:25 an organization, even though we are a nonprofit.
01:28:26 --> 01:28:29 Look at those local organizations, too, that are doing this important work and
01:28:29 --> 01:28:33 see how you can build community with them, whether it be your time, talent or treasure.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:36 Right. And so I just it takes all of us to do the work.
01:28:37 --> 01:28:40 And so MPCA is the way that you get your start. I'm happy to do that.
01:28:40 --> 01:28:44 But we can certainly have conversations about how to advance it as a community.
01:28:44 --> 01:28:51 Well, again, Dr. Eboni Preston Goddard, I am honored to have had this conversation
01:28:51 --> 01:28:54 with you, and I'm glad that you were able to come on.
01:28:55 --> 01:29:00 And, you know, the rule is that I have an open invitation. Once you've been
01:29:00 --> 01:29:02 a guest, you have an open invitation to come back.
01:29:03 --> 01:29:07 And so if there's anything new in your world that you want to share,
01:29:07 --> 01:29:12 feel free to reach out and we'll make that happen. So thank you again for coming on.
01:29:13 --> 01:29:16 Sounds good. I appreciate that. We got a couple of parks in the works,
01:29:16 --> 01:29:20 so I'll definitely take you up on that. All right. That sounds like a plan.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:48 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, George Hornedo.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:55 Indianapolis-raised George Hornedo is stepping up to fight for it.
01:29:56 --> 01:29:59 George grew up and still lives on the north side where he learned the values
01:29:59 --> 01:30:01 that guide him every day.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:05 Hard work, resilience, and a deep commitment to community.
01:30:05 --> 01:30:10 Those lessons shaped who he is and inspired his career in public service.
01:30:10 --> 01:30:14 Throughout his public life, George worked at the highest levels of state and
01:30:14 --> 01:30:19 national democratic politics, including serving in the Obama administration
01:30:19 --> 01:30:20 at the U.S. Department of Justice.
01:30:21 --> 01:30:25 Whether it was working on civil rights or leading national outreach efforts
01:30:25 --> 01:30:31 at the Obama Foundation to reimagine policing, George focused on bringing people
01:30:31 --> 01:30:33 together to solve tough challenges.
01:30:33 --> 01:30:37 George also believes education is a cornerstone of opportunity.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:42 After graduating from Cornell, Harvard, and George Washington University Law School.
01:30:43 --> 01:30:48 George dedicated his career to advancing policies that expand access to resources,
01:30:49 --> 01:30:53 building safer neighborhoods, and creating economic opportunity.
01:30:54 --> 01:30:57 Now George is running for Congress to bring that experience home.
01:30:58 --> 01:31:02 Indianapolis deserves leadership with the vision and determination to take on
01:31:02 --> 01:31:06 our toughest challenges and deliver results for every Hoosier.
01:31:06 --> 01:31:12 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast.
01:31:24 --> 01:31:29 All right, George Hornedo. How you doing, sir? You doing good?
01:31:29 --> 01:31:33 I cannot complain. I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. How are you?
01:31:34 --> 01:31:41 I'm doing fine. Like I was saying in the warmup, I'm doing better than you because
01:31:41 --> 01:31:45 you're running for office and I don't have to do that anymore. You know the grime.
01:31:46 --> 01:31:49 Yeah. Yeah, especially at the federal level.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:53 And so we'll get into all of this stuff that you're doing.
01:31:54 --> 01:31:58 But normally how I start the interviews off is that I do a couple of icebreakers.
01:31:59 --> 01:32:05 So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to. And this is your quote.
01:32:06 --> 01:32:09 Call me whatever you want. Just call me effective.
01:32:11 --> 01:32:17 I still love hearing it. It's a bar. But I mean, look, I think in our politics,
01:32:17 --> 01:32:25 we've gotten too into labels and factions and, you know, purity and things like that.
01:32:25 --> 01:32:30 I'm running a field first campaign. You know, we're on the doors every single day.
01:32:30 --> 01:32:33 You know, we're phone banking every single day. We've already knocked over 33
01:32:33 --> 01:32:36 doors, made over 60 phone calls, right?
01:32:37 --> 01:32:41 Most people are not thinking of themselves in the ways that those of us that
01:32:41 --> 01:32:45 are hyper-political think about themselves, right? They just want to see results.
01:32:46 --> 01:32:50 They don't know whether an issue comes from, is going to be solved by the federal,
01:32:50 --> 01:32:52 state, or local government. They want to see results.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:56 They don't know whether something is seen as quote-unquote progressive or quote-unquote
01:32:56 --> 01:32:58 moderate. They just want to see results.
01:32:59 --> 01:33:05 The left-right or left-center binary in our politics, to the extent that it
01:33:05 --> 01:33:09 was ever informative, I don't think it's informative for this moment in time.
01:33:09 --> 01:33:14 I think the fundamental split in the party right now is not progressive versus
01:33:14 --> 01:33:15 moderate or young versus old.
01:33:16 --> 01:33:19 And even fighters versus holders doesn't necessarily get to it.
01:33:19 --> 01:33:25 I think it's between those that see our systems and institutions as largely
01:33:25 --> 01:33:29 working and that we simply need to protect them and manage this period of decline
01:33:29 --> 01:33:33 versus those like myself that say, Hey,
01:33:34 --> 01:33:36 obviously we want to protect everything we have as best as we can,
01:33:37 --> 01:33:40 but we also have to acknowledge that we don't have a lot of power right now.
01:33:40 --> 01:33:47 And we are just a year into this and government already, you know, has done a total 180.
01:33:47 --> 01:33:50 So whenever Democrats come back into power, I think, you know,
01:33:51 --> 01:33:53 this chaos will bring about an opportunity to rebuild.
01:33:53 --> 01:33:56 And the question becomes, do we rebuild back to what we had,
01:33:57 --> 01:34:00 which I don't think was sufficiently meeting and serving the needs of people, right?
01:34:00 --> 01:34:03 Or do we have the imagination to think about what it can be?
01:34:03 --> 01:34:06 And so I think we need a whole new reconstruction, quite frankly.
01:34:07 --> 01:34:13 And, you know, as we look to that, the ways in which we've seen and felt and
01:34:13 --> 01:34:17 talked about politics before doesn't matter. It's got to be about results.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:20 And so if we're going to have a binary, I'd rather it be, you know,
01:34:20 --> 01:34:25 not left versus right, you know, but I'd rather be up versus down because I
01:34:25 --> 01:34:28 could give a damn on whether something is seen as progressive or moderate or even conservative.
01:34:28 --> 01:34:34 Are we materially improving people's lives and helping solve the issues that
01:34:34 --> 01:34:37 folks are seeing every day? So that's kind of what drives me.
01:34:38 --> 01:34:43 Got you. All right. So now the next icebreaker is called 20 questions.
01:34:44 --> 01:34:48 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
01:34:48 --> 01:34:55 11. All right. Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?
01:34:57 --> 01:35:00 A couple of different places one I'll check twitter
01:35:00 --> 01:35:05 and see you know how much something's being talked about and who's talking about
01:35:05 --> 01:35:10 it and you know look into those sorts of bios because it's a quick way to you
01:35:10 --> 01:35:14 know I can get a new York times and a CBS and you know all sorts of outlets
01:35:14 --> 01:35:18 and see if people are talking about something you know so so that's kind of
01:35:18 --> 01:35:20 where I start and then I'll delve deeper.
01:35:21 --> 01:35:27 Okay. All right. So I have a simple first question for you. Why politics?
01:35:28 --> 01:35:33 It's sport with consequence. Look, I love the Pacers. I love the Colts.
01:35:33 --> 01:35:35 But whoever wins the Super Bowl, whoever wins the NBA Finals,
01:35:36 --> 01:35:41 it doesn't, outside of, you know, hometown pride, it doesn't materially affect
01:35:41 --> 01:35:42 my life 20 years down the road.
01:35:43 --> 01:35:45 But whoever we elect to public office does.
01:35:46 --> 01:35:51 And, you know, I've been interested in public policy ever since I was young.
01:35:51 --> 01:35:55 And in part driven by my own kind of, you know, background.
01:35:55 --> 01:36:00 You know, my parents were high school sweethearts who married young, had me while in college.
01:36:00 --> 01:36:03 And, you know, in those early years, I don't want to overstate it.
01:36:03 --> 01:36:06 You know, I had a great childhood, but, you know, we struggled.
01:36:06 --> 01:36:10 You know, I was for a brief period of time, a wick baby on government formula.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:16 And as I, you know, got older, I think of that as a tangible example of how
01:36:16 --> 01:36:20 in my own life, the positive impact that government can have, you know, on people.
01:36:20 --> 01:36:25 And so, you know, in our, you know, two-party system, right,
01:36:25 --> 01:36:29 you know, I'm a Democrat because of the values, you know, that I believe the party stands for.
01:36:30 --> 01:36:33 You know, Big Ten, you know, as big a ten as it may be, it's the values that
01:36:33 --> 01:36:36 we're pushing for and the different approaches that, you know,
01:36:36 --> 01:36:38 folks within the party may have. You know.
01:36:39 --> 01:36:44 I look at things from the lens of how does something serve the underserved child, right?
01:36:44 --> 01:36:48 So that's kind of a North Star for me, you know, as it comes to the policy side of things.
01:36:48 --> 01:36:51 But the flip side of that coin is the political side of things.
01:36:52 --> 01:36:56 I am deeply competitive, you know, and like I said, it's sport with consequence
01:36:56 --> 01:37:00 and I'm five, seven and a half and I give myself that half, you know,
01:37:00 --> 01:37:03 so I knew I wasn't going to play, you know, college or professional sports.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:08 And so, you know, this is my arena. And so how do we improve people's lives
01:37:08 --> 01:37:11 and do the work day in and day out and honestly try and make people feel seen
01:37:11 --> 01:37:13 and heard again in our politics?
01:37:13 --> 01:37:19 Because, you know, as I'm hitting these doors, you know, it is so clear the
01:37:19 --> 01:37:22 disconnect between the Democratic Party and the people that we claim to serve.
01:37:22 --> 01:37:28 It is so clear that people are disillusioned and disengaged and don't feel not
01:37:28 --> 01:37:32 just represented, but don't feel like there is a place for them to come into.
01:37:33 --> 01:37:36 And so, you know, with this campaign, we're trying to build the vehicle,
01:37:36 --> 01:37:39 you know, for people to put their energies, put their passions, get involved.
01:37:39 --> 01:37:44 And especially in a community like Indianapolis, you know, where this is the
01:37:44 --> 01:37:48 lowest performing congressional district in the whole state and voter turnout
01:37:48 --> 01:37:52 in a state that is already 50th out of all 50 states in D.C. and voter turnout.
01:37:53 --> 01:37:59 And, you know, we may be in a blue dot and have a Democratic mayor,
01:37:59 --> 01:38:02 Democratic member of Congress, a super majority on the city county council,
01:38:02 --> 01:38:04 Democratic state legislators.
01:38:04 --> 01:38:08 But if we're not pulling our weight as a community, we're hurting not just ourselves,
01:38:08 --> 01:38:11 but we're a drag on Democrats across the whole state.
01:38:11 --> 01:38:15 Because back when the party was competing, even winning statewide,
01:38:15 --> 01:38:20 it's in large part because Indianapolis, this congressional district, was organized.
01:38:20 --> 01:38:24 It was the best congressional district in the state and voter turnout. Now we're the worst.
01:38:24 --> 01:38:27 And so that's some of the work that I'm doing.
01:38:27 --> 01:38:32 It's not just from a policy perspective, but it's how do we rebuild the party
01:38:32 --> 01:38:36 that knows how to fight for people again and that brings people into the fold
01:38:36 --> 01:38:41 as opposed to gatekeeps and tries to rule over the ashes of a broken,
01:38:41 --> 01:38:42 disorganized operation.
01:38:44 --> 01:38:50 Okay. All right. So that does lead me into my next question.
01:38:50 --> 01:38:55 You are challenging a Democratic incumbent in your primary.
01:38:55 --> 01:39:00 The seat has been held by one family since 1997.
01:39:00 --> 01:39:04 The incumbent is an African-American and a Muslim.
01:39:05 --> 01:39:10 How do you plan to overcome all those landmines to get elected?
01:39:10 --> 01:39:14 Meet people beyond community. I mean, look, I like the incumbent a lot.
01:39:15 --> 01:39:17 I respect him up until this race, we had a good relationship.
01:39:18 --> 01:39:22 But sometimes we got to tell the truth. And the truth is that the Center for
01:39:22 --> 01:39:26 Effective Lawmaking consistently ranks him as one of the least effective members
01:39:26 --> 01:39:31 of Congress across both parties and across both the House and the Senate.
01:39:31 --> 01:39:34 In 18 years in office, the only two things that he has been the lead sponsor
01:39:34 --> 01:39:39 on that have been signed into law is renaming a federal building and naming a memorial.
01:39:39 --> 01:39:42 You know, we are lagging behind pure cities across the country and how much
01:39:42 --> 01:39:43 federal funds we're bringing home.
01:39:44 --> 01:39:48 I know how to do that side of the job. You know, in private practice,
01:39:48 --> 01:39:52 I've represented the African-American Mayors Association, the cities of Birmingham,
01:39:52 --> 01:39:55 Jackson, Little Rock, you know, Miami-Dade County, and in just, you know,
01:39:56 --> 01:40:00 three years have brought nearly $800 million to those communities across a range of projects.
01:40:00 --> 01:40:04 Whereas the incumbent in 18 years as a member of Congress touts,
01:40:04 --> 01:40:06 you know, about $1 billion brought to the district.
01:40:07 --> 01:40:11 When most of that is federal formula funding that was going to come in to the
01:40:11 --> 01:40:13 district regardless of who was in the seat, right?
01:40:13 --> 01:40:16 So I think we need somebody that's going to be more proactive in the role.
01:40:16 --> 01:40:20 You know, two, I talked about the party building piece of this being our only
01:40:20 --> 01:40:23 safe democratic seat in our congressional delegation.
01:40:23 --> 01:40:27 So I think whoever sits there needs to not only be, you know,
01:40:27 --> 01:40:30 our representative with a vision for the community and the work ethic to execute
01:40:30 --> 01:40:34 upon it, but also take on that party building and party leadership role.
01:40:35 --> 01:40:39 And so as I'm out there on the doors, there are a couple of different things that I'm hearing.
01:40:40 --> 01:40:46 I am hearing, first and foremost, thank you, which at this point when people
01:40:46 --> 01:40:47 say it, I know where they're going with it.
01:40:47 --> 01:40:50 But earlier on, I was like, you're welcome. But for what?
01:40:51 --> 01:40:54 And they say for showing up. You're the first candidate. You're the first elected
01:40:54 --> 01:40:59 official that I've had actually knock on my door and ask my opinion.
01:41:00 --> 01:41:04 And as proud as I am of that, I think it's also an indictment on the state of
01:41:04 --> 01:41:08 the party here in Indiana and on some of the leadership like Congressman Carson
01:41:08 --> 01:41:10 that we have that's been a little bit complacent.
01:41:10 --> 01:41:13 And so we need to bring people into the fold and energize them.
01:41:14 --> 01:41:19 You know, I think number two is we're seeing people that just feel so disillusioned,
01:41:19 --> 01:41:24 you know, so dejected that we have 20 years of one party Republican rule here in Indiana.
01:41:25 --> 01:41:29 So you don't typically see congressional candidates talking about party building.
01:41:29 --> 01:41:32 You know, you see them talking about specific policy issues.
01:41:32 --> 01:41:35 But the way that I see it is that this is a safe Democratic seat.
01:41:35 --> 01:41:38 Whoever is in it is going to be largely a safe Democratic vote.
01:41:38 --> 01:41:42 So my issue with Congressman Carson is not about his voting record so much as
01:41:42 --> 01:41:48 it is how he uses the role, the systems and the structural aspect of things.
01:41:48 --> 01:41:52 And presence is important at large.
01:41:52 --> 01:41:56 People don't feel like leadership is present.
01:41:56 --> 01:42:01 And so they want to feel somebody that's on the ground that's not – you probably
01:42:01 --> 01:42:05 hear that phrase a lot in democratic politics of like meet people where they are.
01:42:05 --> 01:42:10 I hate that phrase because to me, it carries with it this implication of kind
01:42:10 --> 01:42:12 of coming down from one's perch, right?
01:42:13 --> 01:42:16 You know, be with the plebeians, you know, sort of like vibe.
01:42:16 --> 01:42:20 For me, it's usually just be in community walking alongside people to begin with, right?
01:42:20 --> 01:42:26 So how are we doing more to kind of engage and connect and make people feel hope again? Yeah.
01:42:28 --> 01:42:30 I like the way that you...
01:42:31 --> 01:42:38 Broke that down about meeting people where they are because it seems like an innocuous phrase,
01:42:38 --> 01:42:42 but but yeah that top-down
01:42:42 --> 01:42:45 kind of politics i think i
01:42:45 --> 01:42:48 think now that the signal is going out that
01:42:48 --> 01:42:52 that's that's not where we need to be and
01:42:52 --> 01:42:56 i mean look my career is is
01:42:56 --> 01:42:59 you know largely the national democratic la guapa right right
01:42:59 --> 01:43:02 you know there are a whole bunch in Obama world served in the Obama
01:43:02 --> 01:43:05 administration doing civil rights work with the department of justice a
01:43:05 --> 01:43:09 whole bunch of presidential campaign headquarters from the Obama in 2012 you
01:43:09 --> 01:43:13 know Clinton in 16 you know national delegate director and then deputy political
01:43:13 --> 01:43:18 director you know from buddha judge to Biden voter protection in 2020 before
01:43:18 --> 01:43:22 doing a lot of that uh municipal representation that I referenced earlier,
01:43:22 --> 01:43:27 you know, in the private sector, and then eventually starting my own company to do similar work.
01:43:28 --> 01:43:31 So I know what the rules of the game are, so to speak, right?
01:43:31 --> 01:43:34 And I know you know it too, where it's, you know, you raise money,
01:43:35 --> 01:43:39 you hoard that money until the final six to eight weeks, you know,
01:43:39 --> 01:43:42 and then you broadcast and spend it on paid media to reach people.
01:43:43 --> 01:43:48 I don't think that model works anymore. I don't think it's what our country
01:43:48 --> 01:43:50 needs or what our politics, our party needs.
01:43:50 --> 01:43:53 And so I think we need to get back to the basics, right?
01:43:53 --> 01:43:56 Nothing I'm doing is new, being out here organizing, you know,
01:43:56 --> 01:43:59 but we just kind of stop doing it. We need to get to bottom up.
01:43:59 --> 01:44:06 And so, you know, I came into this campaign saying, look, I know how to run that race.
01:44:06 --> 01:44:09 But if I didn't know that those were the rules of the game, so to speak,
01:44:10 --> 01:44:12 how do I think campaign should be run?
01:44:12 --> 01:44:16 And so the way I think about this is this campaign is a vehicle,
01:44:16 --> 01:44:19 not just to elect myself, hopefully,
01:44:19 --> 01:44:24 but to rebuild the party from the bottom up, like I spoke a little bit towards,
01:44:24 --> 01:44:28 you know, in the wake of the redistricting fight that we had here in Indiana.
01:44:28 --> 01:44:31 And, you know, thankfully, we successfully pushed back on that.
01:44:32 --> 01:44:36 You know, I pivoted my campaign to be a vehicle for grassroots defense.
01:44:36 --> 01:44:41 So in short order, my scrappy grassroots campaign became the largest Democratic
01:44:41 --> 01:44:44 field operation in the state of Indiana to combat redistricting.
01:44:45 --> 01:44:49 So, again, similar to people telling me thank you for showing up,
01:44:49 --> 01:44:50 it's something I'm proud about.
01:44:51 --> 01:44:54 But it is also an indictment on the state of the party here.
01:44:54 --> 01:44:57 It shouldn't be me, you know, outperforming the state party,
01:44:57 --> 01:45:00 outperforming the congressman, outperforming the Democratic mayor or any of
01:45:00 --> 01:45:01 our Democratic leaders.
01:45:01 --> 01:45:06 But that's just what it came down to. You know, another thing is,
01:45:06 --> 01:45:09 you know, with the, you know, the congressional shutdown, the government shutdown
01:45:09 --> 01:45:11 in November and the food stamps lapse,
01:45:12 --> 01:45:17 you know, that got me thinking about how can this campaign be a vehicle for mutual aid?
01:45:17 --> 01:45:23 And so one of the things that I thought about is how the Black Panthers had
01:45:23 --> 01:45:26 their universal or their free breakfast program, right?
01:45:26 --> 01:45:32 And so to me, that's an example of a great way to show how any given entity
01:45:32 --> 01:45:38 adds value to community, and it can be an on-ramp into that entity,
01:45:39 --> 01:45:40 political or otherwise, right? Right.
01:45:41 --> 01:45:45 And so, you know, I've been meeting with all sorts of folks from faith leaders
01:45:45 --> 01:45:49 to neighborhood association presidents to, you know, grassroots organizations.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:53 And so I thought, OK, how can I connect the dots here? here.
01:45:53 --> 01:45:57 If this organization has resources, but they don't have bodies and volunteers,
01:45:57 --> 01:46:00 you know, this group over here has the passion and the volunteers,
01:46:00 --> 01:46:01 but they don't have the resources.
01:46:01 --> 01:46:04 And everybody's trying to figure out what can we do in this moment,
01:46:05 --> 01:46:08 you know, when government has failed us to step up for community,
01:46:08 --> 01:46:12 neighbors looking after neighbors, then let me try and connect folks, right?
01:46:12 --> 01:46:15 Or if I've got this big list of all these sorts of people I've been doing,
01:46:16 --> 01:46:20 you know, outreach to, let me do some research, not just on the resources,
01:46:20 --> 01:46:25 you know, for food security and, you know, hunger here in Indianapolis, but across the state.
01:46:25 --> 01:46:31 And let me push it out to that email list and say, hey, this is a living sheet, crowdsourced.
01:46:31 --> 01:46:35 If you see anything on here that needs edits, let me know. If you know of any
01:46:35 --> 01:46:37 resources that aren't on here, let me know.
01:46:38 --> 01:46:41 Just like that, over about 150 entries on it.
01:46:42 --> 01:46:45 So these are the things, right, to where we talk about power.
01:46:45 --> 01:46:50 There's actual power and there's symbolic power. As Democrats, you know, in D.C.
01:46:50 --> 01:46:53 In particular, but including also here in the state of Indiana,
01:46:53 --> 01:46:57 we may not have a lot of actual power, but it doesn't mean that we don't have
01:46:57 --> 01:47:00 symbolic power that we can use. We've got convening power.
01:47:00 --> 01:47:04 We have we can collaborate. We can connect folks. We can, you know,
01:47:04 --> 01:47:11 kind of play that role in our own communities. And so I see campaigns as a window
01:47:11 --> 01:47:12 into how one will govern.
01:47:12 --> 01:47:16 And so that's why I've tried to approach this campaign, you know, in that sort of way.
01:47:17 --> 01:47:22 Yeah. When you were talking about cities that you worked with,
01:47:22 --> 01:47:27 it was really, really cool to hear Jackson, Mississippi in that conversation,
01:47:28 --> 01:47:31 considering I spent like 34 years there. Oh, wow. Yeah.
01:47:32 --> 01:47:38 And but Indianapolis is also a very special city to me. My mom was born and raised there.
01:47:38 --> 01:47:41 She went to Short Ridge High School, as a matter of fact. Okay.
01:47:41 --> 01:47:47 Amazing. And I spent many a summer there in my youth, hanging out with my many, many first cousins.
01:47:47 --> 01:47:53 What are the issues that Indy residents are dealing with that you feel you can change or improve?
01:47:54 --> 01:48:00 So I've got on my website, the vision page, right? I've got a national agenda
01:48:00 --> 01:48:02 that I call the FairShot Agenda.
01:48:03 --> 01:48:06 And that has five different buckets under it.
01:48:06 --> 01:48:10 It's an economy that works, you know, a stronger foundation,
01:48:10 --> 01:48:15 a safer city, you know, a sustainable future, and a democracy that puts people first.
01:48:16 --> 01:48:18 Within those, it's a slew of different policy positions.
01:48:19 --> 01:48:23 And they all kind of fall under the bucket of the FairShot agenda because I
01:48:23 --> 01:48:28 referenced earlier a little bit about my background growing up and you've heard
01:48:28 --> 01:48:32 a little bit about my professional background and experiences and I've been
01:48:32 --> 01:48:34 able to have some great educational opportunities as well.
01:48:34 --> 01:48:37 Went to Cornell for undergrad, Harvard for my master's in education policy,
01:48:38 --> 01:48:42 George Washington University for law school and look, I've been very fortunate.
01:48:42 --> 01:48:46 I've achieved my own American dream but I can't overlook the fact that that
01:48:46 --> 01:48:48 is increasingly out of reach for more and more people.
01:48:48 --> 01:48:54 So to me, the issue that I've always been most animated by personally is poverty,
01:48:54 --> 01:48:59 because I think it is the single biggest, most shameful policy failure in this country.
01:49:00 --> 01:49:05 But I see poverty not as a specific issue so much as it is a lens and framework
01:49:05 --> 01:49:09 by which to look at every other issue, whether it be jobs and economic development,
01:49:10 --> 01:49:14 housing and urban development, environmental justice, educational and health
01:49:14 --> 01:49:17 outcomes and disparities.
01:49:18 --> 01:49:22 And I think about the fact that one in four, maybe one in five,
01:49:22 --> 01:49:24 you know, kids here in the district live in poverty.
01:49:25 --> 01:49:29 You know, that is as shocking as it is unacceptable. And that's based off metrics
01:49:29 --> 01:49:33 developed 60 years ago by the Department of Labor when, you know,
01:49:33 --> 01:49:36 food was one third of a household's expenses and now it's one eighth.
01:49:37 --> 01:49:41 And so the United Way of Central Indiana has their own metric system called
01:49:41 --> 01:49:47 ALIS, Asset Living, Income Compensated and Employed, where essentially it's,
01:49:47 --> 01:49:50 hey, you may not technically be in poverty, but you're just barely making it.
01:49:50 --> 01:49:55 And so with their metric system, it shows that 40% of folks here in Marion County,
01:49:56 --> 01:49:58 you know, Indianapolis, live in poverty.
01:49:59 --> 01:50:02 And in some of these neighborhoods, it's as high as 77, you know, 80%.
01:50:03 --> 01:50:07 That's unbelievable. That's ridiculous and just completely unacceptable.
01:50:07 --> 01:50:10 In the United States of America in, you know, 2026.
01:50:11 --> 01:50:14 And, you know, it's not unique to us at the same time.
01:50:14 --> 01:50:18 And so that's where that fair shot agenda comes in.
01:50:18 --> 01:50:24 And that's a national thing. But I also have three kind of policy white papers, you know,
01:50:24 --> 01:50:28 in conjunction working with policy experts and folks here on the ground in Indianapolis,
01:50:28 --> 01:50:33 you know, that do this work day in and day out on the three issues that I've
01:50:33 --> 01:50:35 heard the most about on the doors from community members.
01:50:36 --> 01:50:39 Number one, you know, you may not believe it, but it's roads.
01:50:40 --> 01:50:44 You know, we are the worst in the entire state in infrastructure.
01:50:44 --> 01:50:47 And the state is ranked dead last in the country in infrastructure.
01:50:48 --> 01:50:54 Our craters are like potholes, right? And it's a $500 million a year shortfall,
01:50:54 --> 01:50:56 you know, to be able to address it at the scale that's needed.
01:50:57 --> 01:51:00 You know, so this is something that seems so basic.
01:51:00 --> 01:51:04 And it's something that doesn't discriminate. You know, these roads are tearing
01:51:04 --> 01:51:06 up everybody's cars. right?
01:51:06 --> 01:51:09 But it's also one of those things where there is inequity of,
01:51:09 --> 01:51:13 you know, what roads are getting fixed first, right? And, you know.
01:51:14 --> 01:51:17 If you're somebody that's struggling and living paycheck to paycheck and you
01:51:17 --> 01:51:22 bust a tire and that's an unexpected expense, right? There's an economic argument to all this too, right?
01:51:23 --> 01:51:26 So fix the damn roads, you know, is a white paper and a plan that I have around
01:51:26 --> 01:51:29 that, that I hear constantly throughout the district.
01:51:30 --> 01:51:32 The other one is, you know, make housing affordable.
01:51:32 --> 01:51:37 You know, we've got about half of the district, you know, that rent.
01:51:37 --> 01:51:41 And, you know, there's even more of the district, you know, that don't cleanly
01:51:41 --> 01:51:45 fall into the rent versus, you know, ownership side of things.
01:51:45 --> 01:51:49 Because, you know, as I'm canvassing across the city, you see how many of these
01:51:49 --> 01:51:52 houses are multi-generation, right?
01:51:52 --> 01:51:56 You'll have, you know, a grandmother and, you know, her son and,
01:51:56 --> 01:51:59 you know, the six-year-old grandson, right?
01:51:59 --> 01:52:02 You know, and this is how a lot of folks in the community are growing up.
01:52:03 --> 01:52:06 And it's not, sometimes it's cultural, right? Right.
01:52:06 --> 01:52:10 You know, but oftentimes it's just need, you know, it's necessity.
01:52:10 --> 01:52:14 It's, it's, you know, you don't have the ability to go off on your own and buy something.
01:52:14 --> 01:52:18 So, so that's a reality in this. So we've got a plan for that.
01:52:18 --> 01:52:22 And then homelessness, you know, is a really big issue here in the community.
01:52:23 --> 01:52:28 And, and with all of these things, one of the things that I often hear from
01:52:28 --> 01:52:31 people is, oh, well, that's a local issue.
01:52:31 --> 01:52:33 Oh, well, that's a state issue. Right.
01:52:33 --> 01:52:38 But what I say to people is anything that's a local or state issue can also
01:52:38 --> 01:52:39 be a federal issue, right?
01:52:40 --> 01:52:42 You know, let's take roads as an example.
01:52:43 --> 01:52:48 If I am a more proactive member of Congress, you know, bringing home more federal
01:52:48 --> 01:52:54 funds on any given issue, does that free up, you know, the city budget to put
01:52:54 --> 01:52:56 more money towards, you know, roads?
01:52:56 --> 01:53:00 Or even beyond that, I may not like what Republicans are doing right now in
01:53:00 --> 01:53:02 D.C., but we can't say that they don't think outside of the box.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:05 You know, so where are we thinking outside of the box with things?
01:53:05 --> 01:53:07 So I think about, you know,
01:53:07 --> 01:53:11 the surface transportation reauthorization program, not to get too granular, but,
01:53:12 --> 01:53:19 you know, it is a federal funding formula program where there is a set amount
01:53:19 --> 01:53:23 of money that will flow through to the state, you know, for any given issue.
01:53:24 --> 01:53:28 And Indianapolis is not unlike a lot of the cities that I represented.
01:53:28 --> 01:53:33 Democratic cities, you know, often but not always capital cities and Republican
01:53:33 --> 01:53:35 states, just like Jackson, right?
01:53:36 --> 01:53:40 Where there is a dynamic between the Republican leadership and the state trying
01:53:40 --> 01:53:42 to stick it to that Democratic city.
01:53:42 --> 01:53:46 And what it often means is that cities like, you know, Indianapolis and Jackson
01:53:46 --> 01:53:49 don't see its fair share of resources.
01:53:49 --> 01:53:54 And so how can we put together some sort of coalition to advocate for rethinking
01:53:54 --> 01:53:58 that federal funding formula so that it takes some of these nuances into account
01:53:58 --> 01:54:01 and communities like ours aren't left behind?
01:54:01 --> 01:54:04 Something like that wouldn't just have a transformative impact when it comes
01:54:04 --> 01:54:10 to roads, but on any given issue in which there's a federal formula program.
01:54:10 --> 01:54:13 And so these are the sorts of things that I think about.
01:54:13 --> 01:54:17 And I guess also one of the things that I think about that I referenced earlier
01:54:17 --> 01:54:20 is people aren't thinking about what's solved by the federal government versus
01:54:20 --> 01:54:22 state versus local. They just want solutions, right?
01:54:23 --> 01:54:28 And so how do we break down the silos between every level of government? Because.
01:54:29 --> 01:54:34 Look, vision building is not easy. You know, rallying people around a vision is even harder.
01:54:35 --> 01:54:40 Executing upon a vision is arguably the hardest. But unless you have a vision,
01:54:40 --> 01:54:41 then you are walking aimlessly.
01:54:42 --> 01:54:46 And I feel like as a community here from a vision and policy perspective,
01:54:46 --> 01:54:49 you know, as a state, you know, we've been walking aimlessly.
01:54:49 --> 01:54:52 I feel like the Democratic Party here in Indianapolis, here in Indiana,
01:54:53 --> 01:54:59 you know, across the country, we're walking aimlessly. And so we need leaders that have vision.
01:54:59 --> 01:55:06 We need leaders that have the work ethic to execute and rally people around
01:55:06 --> 01:55:09 such vision. And so that's what I'm trying to bring to the table here.
01:55:10 --> 01:55:17 Yeah. All right. So are Hoosiers concerned about the Epstein files? Yeah.
01:55:18 --> 01:55:22 And that's actually one of the things that has surprised me on the doors.
01:55:22 --> 01:55:25 It's not like I'm going door to door and saying, hey, what do you think about the Epstein files?
01:55:26 --> 01:55:30 But people are talking to me constantly about the issues that are most important to them.
01:55:31 --> 01:55:35 And that's not top of mind, where it's not something people are offering up.
01:55:35 --> 01:55:45 To me, it is something I am personally very interested in because I see it as
01:55:45 --> 01:55:46 bigger than just a crime.
01:55:47 --> 01:55:49 To me, this is an issue of equal justice.
01:55:50 --> 01:55:59 If we cannot trust in our justice system that it is going to be applied to everybody,
01:55:59 --> 01:56:04 then how does that erode the way that we see our institutions?
01:56:05 --> 01:56:08 You know, there shouldn't be a different set of rules for the wealthy and the
01:56:08 --> 01:56:10 powerful, the elite, the connected.
01:56:10 --> 01:56:14 And that's what we've been seeing. And so I think this is something that we
01:56:14 --> 01:56:19 need something more akin to like the 9-11 commission, you know,
01:56:19 --> 01:56:21 to really look at it and root everything out.
01:56:21 --> 01:56:26 And it makes me think as a parallel sort of side of things.
01:56:26 --> 01:56:31 I've never been one for litmus tests because I think it distracts from,
01:56:31 --> 01:56:33 you know, building governing coalitions.
01:56:35 --> 01:56:38 But with everything that we're seeing across the country right now and with
01:56:38 --> 01:56:42 the Trump administration and just thinking back to the other day in Minneapolis,
01:56:43 --> 01:56:45 with the tragic murder there.
01:56:46 --> 01:56:51 We need leaders that, especially in 2028, when thinking from presidential candidates,
01:56:51 --> 01:56:54 we need folks that aren't just going to, in a post-Trump era.
01:56:55 --> 01:56:57 Talk about moving on and talk about healing.
01:56:58 --> 01:57:01 I believe that we can't heal until there's a reckoning.
01:57:02 --> 01:57:05 You know, and so we have to, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:11 We have to root out, you know, all the corruption that we're seeing and bring
01:57:11 --> 01:57:14 folks to justice for it. There has to be accountability, because if there's
01:57:14 --> 01:57:17 not, then how do we take any of this seriously?
01:57:17 --> 01:57:22 And so, you know, I feel the same way on that with respect to Epstein-Files.
01:57:23 --> 01:57:26 I don't care who surfaced in it. It could be Democrat. It could be Republican.
01:57:26 --> 01:57:30 It doesn't matter. It's not about party. It's not about tribalism,
01:57:30 --> 01:57:32 you know, getting to your corners.
01:57:32 --> 01:57:36 People have to be held accountable for their actions. Simple as that. Yeah.
01:57:37 --> 01:57:42 So since you brought up the killing of Renee Good in Minneapolis,
01:57:43 --> 01:57:53 do you feel that ICE as it's currently constructed needs to be abolished or
01:57:53 --> 01:57:57 is there some workaround that you can envision?
01:57:57 --> 01:58:02 I mean, no, no, ICE absolutely needs to be abolished, you know, in its form now.
01:58:03 --> 01:58:06 But, you know, honestly, abolishing ICE is, you know, the moderate position
01:58:06 --> 01:58:08 at this point. It's not just that.
01:58:08 --> 01:58:13 It's we need to, you know, highlight who these folks are that are,
01:58:13 --> 01:58:16 you know, behaving in this manner, right? And, you know.
01:58:18 --> 01:58:20 Not just Minneapolis, we saw in Chicago a couple months ago,
01:58:21 --> 01:58:25 you've got ICE agents that are, you know, using pepper spray on Chicago police.
01:58:26 --> 01:58:29 So what happens to all, what happened to all the folks that talk about the idea
01:58:29 --> 01:58:31 of Blue Lives Matter, right?
01:58:31 --> 01:58:34 You know, and so it's like, we have to be consistent when we're talking about
01:58:34 --> 01:58:38 things, you know, not just, you know, oh, it's convenient when it's for something
01:58:38 --> 01:58:41 I want, you know, but otherwise it's not, right?
01:58:41 --> 01:58:46 And so for For me, I understand that politics is a game of teams and this and that.
01:58:46 --> 01:58:50 I don't play that. Right. I play like what are the values?
01:58:50 --> 01:58:54 What are what are the beliefs? What are the systems? What are the structures that we need?
01:58:54 --> 01:58:58 You know, putting people first. How are we thinking about like the impact on
01:58:58 --> 01:58:59 folks at the end of the day?
01:58:59 --> 01:59:03 And everything else is noise. Everything else is theater. Yeah.
01:59:04 --> 01:59:09 I think you kind of answered my question about the supporting the Democrats
01:59:09 --> 01:59:11 position during the government shutdown.
01:59:12 --> 01:59:15 Do you support the United States making Venezuela U.S.
01:59:15 --> 01:59:20 Territory by capturing Nicolas Maduro? That's ridiculous.
01:59:22 --> 01:59:29 I mean, it's like we got rising utility rates and all these data centers.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:31 We've got, you know, groceries through the roof.
01:59:32 --> 01:59:37 I mean, damn, I ordered some Taco Bell the other day on Uber Eats.
01:59:37 --> 01:59:39 And I was like, when did it get this expensive, right? You know,
01:59:39 --> 01:59:44 like we've got folks, you know, struggling with health care costs,
01:59:44 --> 01:59:46 you know, everything across the board.
01:59:46 --> 01:59:51 It shouldn't be this hard to get by, you know, and Trump talked about trying
01:59:51 --> 01:59:53 to address these issues in the affordability crisis.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:58 Yet here he is doing everything else but that, you know, so it's like we got
01:59:58 --> 02:00:01 to keep our eye on the ball and do what actually affects people here at home,
02:00:01 --> 02:00:04 not be trying to do anything and everything all over the world.
02:00:04 --> 02:00:09 And so it's just a whole mess what we're seeing right now. So in light of that,
02:00:09 --> 02:00:16 do you support military aid to Ukraine and do you support military aid to Israel?
02:00:17 --> 02:00:20 I mean, military aid to Ukraine in this moment, absolutely.
02:00:20 --> 02:00:24 You know, military aid to Israel in this moment. You know, I don't believe that
02:00:24 --> 02:00:29 we should be providing offensive weapons to any nation unless it is in accordance
02:00:29 --> 02:00:33 with international humanitarian law. And that's just simply not what we've been seeing.
02:00:35 --> 02:00:39 Yeah. Taking into account that less than 10 percent of your state's population
02:00:39 --> 02:00:44 is African-American, what is your position on reparations?
02:00:45 --> 02:00:49 You know it's hey you know it's hey I hear
02:00:49 --> 02:00:52 that all the time and my question is like what exactly like
02:00:52 --> 02:00:55 I know what it means right but like walk
02:00:55 --> 02:00:58 it out for me right and and so I think
02:00:58 --> 02:01:01 I'm I'm always open to studies so
02:01:01 --> 02:01:06 I could be told what would this look like is it x amount of money to y amount
02:01:06 --> 02:01:10 of people right like it's a buzzword at this point but it's never actually been
02:01:10 --> 02:01:15 you know flowed out I think what's more helpful and what I think about is how
02:01:15 --> 02:01:20 do we repair systems so that there's not, you know, discriminatory effects?
02:01:20 --> 02:01:27 How do we make sure that there's, you know, equity in anything that we do,
02:01:27 --> 02:01:31 you know, moving forward and that we're not, you know, inhibiting communities,
02:01:31 --> 02:01:34 especially communities that have a history of being, you know,
02:01:34 --> 02:01:36 marginalized and underserved?
02:01:36 --> 02:01:41 You know, how do we think from a policy perspective, you know,
02:01:42 --> 02:01:44 trying to think of a concrete example, right?
02:01:45 --> 02:01:48 You know, we talked a little bit about poverty earlier, right?
02:01:49 --> 02:01:52 Poverty is something that hits everybody, but it disproportionately affects,
02:01:52 --> 02:01:54 you know, black and brown communities, right? And to your question,
02:01:54 --> 02:01:55 I guess, with the black community.
02:01:55 --> 02:02:00 So what are we doing to make sure that we are decreasing, you know, poverty, right?
02:02:01 --> 02:02:06 What are we doing to make sure that, you know, everybody has the healthcare that they need, right?
02:02:06 --> 02:02:09 What are we doing to make sure that everybody has, you know,
02:02:09 --> 02:02:11 the food that they need, right?
02:02:11 --> 02:02:15 And so all of these difficult issues, you know, have a disproportionate effect
02:02:15 --> 02:02:17 on communities of color, right?
02:02:17 --> 02:02:23 And so doing more to put resources towards that, I think, is a way of repair in my mind.
02:02:23 --> 02:02:27 And so a budget is a moral document.
02:02:28 --> 02:02:36 And I also believe that a country or a community is only as strong as its most vulnerable.
02:02:37 --> 02:02:42 And the fact that we have so many people struggling still is an indictment on our priorities.
02:02:43 --> 02:02:45 And so I believe and repair, absolutely.
02:02:46 --> 02:02:51 But it is about the way of getting there. And so the way of getting there,
02:02:51 --> 02:02:58 in my mind, comes through working within systems or building new systems to the,
02:02:58 --> 02:03:02 allow for everybody to thrive and live lives of dignity and success.
02:03:02 --> 02:03:06 You know, if there are other ways of getting there, I'm always open to it.
02:03:06 --> 02:03:08 But I'd love to see kind of that laid out, what it looks like.
02:03:09 --> 02:03:17 Yeah. And so H.R. 40 has been a bill that's been introduced ever since John
02:03:17 --> 02:03:20 Conyers has been pushing in, I guess, in 89.
02:03:21 --> 02:03:28 And so that bill is basically just to create what you were referring to as a
02:03:28 --> 02:03:36 study committee to kind of get to what are the issues and what can Congress
02:03:36 --> 02:03:38 do or what should the federal government do.
02:03:39 --> 02:03:46 And so if H.R. 40 came before you for a vote, you would favor that.
02:03:46 --> 02:03:48 Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay.
02:03:49 --> 02:03:55 Since the circuits of the U.S. Court of Appeals are assigned a circuit justice
02:03:55 --> 02:04:00 from the United States Supreme Court, and there are 13 courts of appeal circuits,
02:04:00 --> 02:04:05 would you vote for an expansion of the U.S. Supreme Court to 13 justices?
02:04:06 --> 02:04:10 Absolutely. I think we also need term limits on justices. We need term limits
02:04:10 --> 02:04:11 on, you know, members of Congress.
02:04:12 --> 02:04:17 What do you think is a fair, because in your case, you'd have to get elected
02:04:17 --> 02:04:24 three times before you get vested and get that lifetime check. So what would be?
02:04:24 --> 02:04:27 I put 18 years. Okay.
02:04:28 --> 02:04:32 Okay. That's my policy platform, 18 years for members of Congress. Okay.
02:04:33 --> 02:04:39 Why is 2026 going to be a blue wave for Democrats? Okay.
02:04:40 --> 02:04:46 I mean, you've got folks in the Trump coalition that are falling off for different issues.
02:04:46 --> 02:04:49 For some, it's because of the impacts of terrorists. For others,
02:04:49 --> 02:04:50 it's because of Epstein files.
02:04:50 --> 02:04:56 You know, it's going to continue to be the case, right? We're seeing chaos instead of competence.
02:04:56 --> 02:05:00 We're seeing, like we talked about, a focus on everybody but Americans.
02:05:00 --> 02:05:07 We're seeing, you know, we are not seeing what Trump promised his voters.
02:05:07 --> 02:05:11 And they're seeing that too, which is why his popularity is,
02:05:11 --> 02:05:13 you know, declining rapidly.
02:05:14 --> 02:05:19 It's because his popularity is declining rapidly and his knowledge that if Democrats
02:05:19 --> 02:05:23 win the House, they'll have investigative powers and authorities to look into his corruption.
02:05:23 --> 02:05:27 It's because of that why the redistricting fight started You know,
02:05:27 --> 02:05:32 it began in Texas What he didn't expect is that Gavin Newsome and California democrats,
02:05:33 --> 02:05:38 you know, we're going to to respond You know on their side He didn't anticipate
02:05:38 --> 02:05:41 that Texas democrats in the house would break quorum and inspire the nation
02:05:41 --> 02:05:45 on this He didn't anticipate that it would then become this,
02:05:45 --> 02:05:47 you know race to the bottom of states,
02:05:47 --> 02:05:51 you know, both blue states and and red states you know, looking at redistricting,
02:05:51 --> 02:05:54 you know, eventually making it what might end up being a wash.
02:05:55 --> 02:05:59 He didn't anticipate that Kansas would back off.
02:05:59 --> 02:06:04 He didn't anticipate that Republicans here in Indiana, a majority of Republicans
02:06:04 --> 02:06:08 in the state Senate caucus, would vote with Democrats to beat this down after
02:06:08 --> 02:06:11 a four and a half month saga around this.
02:06:12 --> 02:06:15 He is realizing that he doesn't have the juice that he used to have.
02:06:16 --> 02:06:22 He is realizing in real time, everybody becomes a lame duck at some point. Right.
02:06:23 --> 02:06:27 And so that's why he is digging in. You know, that's why he is trying to distract,
02:06:28 --> 02:06:31 you know, from his losses. He's trying to distract from Epstein files.
02:06:31 --> 02:06:36 And he's, you know, you know, waving, you know, a little shiny thing over here with Venezuela.
02:06:36 --> 02:06:40 OK, let me bomb Nigeria on Christmas. OK, let me go into Syria and this and
02:06:40 --> 02:06:45 that. You know, that's why he is putting, you know, you know.
02:06:45 --> 02:06:48 Election deniers, you know, in important posts as it comes to that.
02:06:49 --> 02:06:52 That's why he's getting, you know, National Guard and communities across the
02:06:52 --> 02:06:54 country so he can, you know, normalize that.
02:06:55 --> 02:06:57 Because when the idea people often talk about, you know, oh,
02:06:58 --> 02:07:01 the Republicans are moving right now, you know, like we're not going to have elections.
02:07:01 --> 02:07:03 The way I think about it is.
02:07:04 --> 02:07:06 It's less likely that we're not going to have elections, but,
02:07:07 --> 02:07:09 you know, are they free and fair, right?
02:07:09 --> 02:07:13 You know, are people going, you know, to turn out, you know,
02:07:13 --> 02:07:17 in Democratic precincts, you know, if they're afraid about ICE, right?
02:07:17 --> 02:07:22 Or are they going to feel intimidated because there's a military presence, right?
02:07:22 --> 02:07:26 These are the sorts of things, you know, from a soft power perspective and a
02:07:26 --> 02:07:30 hard power perspective that they still try and get their way, right?
02:07:30 --> 02:07:35 And so, you know, it is up to us as a people to stay vigilant,
02:07:35 --> 02:07:40 you know, to continue doing the work, you know, to continue to stand up,
02:07:40 --> 02:07:45 to bring others into the fold, you know, to not be afraid, because the power
02:07:45 --> 02:07:47 of the people is always stronger than the people in power.
02:07:48 --> 02:07:51 And we have to remember that, you know, and keep pushing.
02:07:51 --> 02:07:56 All right. So my final question for you is finish this sentence.
02:07:56 --> 02:08:01 But I have hope because I believe in people.
02:08:02 --> 02:08:06 Okay. Well, that's a good way to do it. If you're going to be in public service,
02:08:06 --> 02:08:08 you need to believe in the folks.
02:08:09 --> 02:08:13 And, you know, I really appreciate the fact that,
02:08:14 --> 02:08:17 that you are putting yourself out there.
02:08:17 --> 02:08:25 I think one of the cool things about this process is that when it is done right,
02:08:25 --> 02:08:32 it is an incredible aim to be in public service.
02:08:32 --> 02:08:37 And it's an incredible commitment to take care of people.
02:08:37 --> 02:08:43 And, you know, listening to you talk, I know that your heart is in the right place.
02:08:43 --> 02:08:47 And I, and I, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share that with me.
02:08:48 --> 02:08:52 No, thank you. If people want to get involved with your campaign or want to
02:08:52 --> 02:08:54 reach out to you, how can they do that?
02:08:54 --> 02:08:58 I'm, I'm accessible. Yeah. I put my cell phone number, my email out there all
02:08:58 --> 02:09:00 over the community when I'm dropping cards and canvassing.
02:09:00 --> 02:09:04 So, uh, you know, anybody has any, you know, thoughts to share questions,
02:09:05 --> 02:09:06 you know, to ask, want to get, get involved.
02:09:07 --> 02:09:09 You know, So my website is georgehornedo.com.
02:09:10 --> 02:09:13 There's a volunteer button. We're phone banking every single day.
02:09:13 --> 02:09:16 We're canvassing every day for those that are local here in Indianapolis.
02:09:16 --> 02:09:21 Obviously, resources are helpful and keep our scrappy grassroots campaign going
02:09:21 --> 02:09:23 and try and reach more voters.
02:09:23 --> 02:09:29 But also my email is just george at georgehornedo.com. So drop me a line and let's chat.
02:09:29 --> 02:09:34 So thank you to everybody for listening. And thank you, Eric,
02:09:34 --> 02:09:39 for the opportunity and the platform. and deeply appreciative of the work that
02:09:39 --> 02:09:41 you do and had a good time with us.
02:09:42 --> 02:09:46 Well, I'm glad that you had a good time. And one of the rules that I have is
02:09:46 --> 02:09:51 that once you've been a guest, you have an open invitation to come back.
02:09:51 --> 02:09:56 So it'd be cool if you're a member of Congress and you come back to the show.
02:09:56 --> 02:10:02 But even if you're not, I know that you're going to be active regardless of the results.
02:10:02 --> 02:10:08 So again, I greatly appreciate you taking the time and doing this. Absolutely. Thank you.
02:10:22 --> 02:10:30 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Naomi Raquel Enright, Dr.
02:10:30 --> 02:10:36 Eboni Preston Goddard, and George Hornedo for coming on the program.
02:10:36 --> 02:10:45 I was I've been working to try to get Sister Enright on for a while,
02:10:45 --> 02:10:47 and we finally were able to make that happen.
02:10:48 --> 02:10:54 And I'm glad that she was the first person that I got to interview in this new year.
02:10:55 --> 02:10:59 And I think her book, even though it was written several years ago.
02:11:01 --> 02:11:05 Very, very relevant to where we are today because there's definitely a need
02:11:05 --> 02:11:13 to have strength in our soul as events have transpired over this last week.
02:11:13 --> 02:11:22 Dr. Goddard is doing incredible work in making sure that our history is interwoven.
02:11:23 --> 02:11:28 Well, it's been interwoven, but we just needed somebody to tell the story.
02:11:28 --> 02:11:35 And Dr. Goddard is doing the work to make sure that our stories are told and
02:11:35 --> 02:11:42 that people understand that the contributions of African Americans have been
02:11:42 --> 02:11:44 and continue to be vital.
02:11:44 --> 02:11:50 And also just to deal with our national parks,
02:11:50 --> 02:11:57 because, you know, the initial reason why the park service was created and that
02:11:57 --> 02:12:03 there was an effort is because we wanted to reflect the beauty of this nation.
02:12:03 --> 02:12:10 And where sometimes the people and the leadership don't reflect it, nature is nature.
02:12:10 --> 02:12:18 And we don't think that every piece of land needs to be a tool of capitalism,
02:12:18 --> 02:12:24 whether it's housing developments or oil rigs or whatever.
02:12:24 --> 02:12:32 Some places just need to be preserved for the natural beauty that it is. And so I'm glad that Dr.
02:12:32 --> 02:12:33 Goddard is involved in that work.
02:12:35 --> 02:12:40 And especially, again, to show that African-Americans care about this nation
02:12:40 --> 02:12:44 more than just their own self-interest.
02:12:44 --> 02:12:48 Right. And then there's George Hornedo,
02:12:48 --> 02:12:54 the young man after my own heart, who is running for the United States Congress
02:12:54 --> 02:13:00 in the, I believe, the 7th District in Indiana.
02:13:00 --> 02:13:05 I might be wrong on that one, but he's running basically out of Indianapolis.
02:13:07 --> 02:13:13 And, you know, I just can't help but see a lot of myself in his candidacy,
02:13:13 --> 02:13:20 somebody that is committed to working for the people and offering themselves
02:13:20 --> 02:13:27 up and challenging a formidable incumbent to do so.
02:13:28 --> 02:13:36 But, you know, it's just we're at this point now where we've got to challenge things.
02:13:36 --> 02:13:42 And one of the things I didn't get a chance to ask him was about this trend,
02:13:42 --> 02:13:47 but he answered it in the interview, even without me asking,
02:13:47 --> 02:13:52 about why it's important to challenge things.
02:13:53 --> 02:14:01 I think, you know, the status quo always needs to be shaken up at some point.
02:14:02 --> 02:14:10 And, you know, I'm one of those people that, you know, if somebody,
02:14:10 --> 02:14:13 doesn't matter if they're black, they're white, they're Democrat,
02:14:14 --> 02:14:19 Republican, if they're not responding to the people, if they're just place sitters,
02:14:19 --> 02:14:25 then we, at the very least, need to get them off of the spot that they're just sitting on, right?
02:14:25 --> 02:14:33 But if we can't defeat them, at least make a move and understand that,
02:14:33 --> 02:14:35 you know, there's an accountability piece there.
02:14:36 --> 02:14:42 It's one thing to have the title. It's another thing to utilize that power for
02:14:42 --> 02:14:45 the maximum amount of good. Right.
02:14:45 --> 02:14:52 And so I commend George for doing that. And if you are so inclined to help him, please do.
02:14:53 --> 02:14:58 So, I guess the best way to get into what I want to talk about,
02:14:59 --> 02:15:02 because there were so many things, you know, the situation in Venezuela,
02:15:02 --> 02:15:07 which even Jack Ryan, the TV show, saw coming.
02:15:07 --> 02:15:12 You know, I've said what I needed to say about certain things.
02:15:12 --> 02:15:19 You know, I think, you know, this country has a history of using military force
02:15:19 --> 02:15:26 to enact police actions. I don't endorse that kind of stuff.
02:15:26 --> 02:15:32 I don't endorse the United States trying to be imperial.
02:15:32 --> 02:15:37 I think we have enough issues and really enough people.
02:15:37 --> 02:15:41 You're talking about a country of 330 million plus.
02:15:41 --> 02:15:46 Plus, I think it's a daunting enough task to make sure that each one of them
02:15:46 --> 02:15:53 have opportunities, let alone trying to meddle in other people's politics.
02:15:53 --> 02:16:01 And history has shown that meddling in other people's politics doesn't always
02:16:01 --> 02:16:06 garner the outcomes in the long term that we may have desired.
02:16:06 --> 02:16:11 There might be some short-term gains, but in the long term, that can flip.
02:16:11 --> 02:16:16 You look at the situation in Iran for a historical example.
02:16:16 --> 02:16:21 You look at the Monroe Doctrine and the Roosevelt Corollary, right?
02:16:22 --> 02:16:30 And how that has not had the desired effects that we have wanted or we may have
02:16:30 --> 02:16:35 desired whether the intentions were pure or not in this hemisphere.
02:16:35 --> 02:16:44 And the police actions on Manuel Noriega and Nicolas Maduro are examples of how,
02:16:45 --> 02:16:51 meddling has not benefited us or the citizens of their respective countries.
02:16:52 --> 02:16:56 So, you know, there's that.
02:16:58 --> 02:17:03 But at 9.30 a.m. on January 7th,
02:17:04 --> 02:17:08 2026, a 37-year-old
02:17:08 --> 02:17:18 woman who was a mother and had just dropped her child off from school and saw
02:17:18 --> 02:17:24 something going on in her community that she and other people in that city of
02:17:24 --> 02:17:27 Minneapolis were concerned about, which is the invasion,
02:17:28 --> 02:17:30 of U.S.
02:17:30 --> 02:17:36 Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, agents in their town.
02:17:37 --> 02:17:44 President has bragged that it's the largest show of force from the agency in history.
02:17:44 --> 02:17:55 But again, at 930 that morning, Renee Nicole Good became a victim of unjustified police violence.
02:17:55 --> 02:18:04 Now, a court of law may disagree with my assessment, but from what I saw,
02:18:05 --> 02:18:08 there's no way that you can say.
02:18:08 --> 02:18:14 And with my background in law enforcement, there's no way that you can say that
02:18:14 --> 02:18:18 that was a justified homicide, that that was a justified shooting.
02:18:19 --> 02:18:23 And it's something that a lot of us were dreading to happen.
02:18:25 --> 02:18:31 It's been a little more than five years and literally six blocks away from where
02:18:31 --> 02:18:34 George Floyd was killed by law enforcement.
02:18:34 --> 02:18:41 It's in the same city where Philando Castile was killed by law enforcement.
02:18:41 --> 02:18:46 And I apologize to the family. I can't remember the young lady's name who was
02:18:46 --> 02:18:52 about to get married, who was killed in her backyard after calling the police
02:18:52 --> 02:18:54 to be killed by the police.
02:18:55 --> 02:19:00 This is, you know, the common phrase is like, well, this is not what America
02:19:00 --> 02:19:02 is. Unfortunately, this is what America is.
02:19:03 --> 02:19:06 The challenge is, at what point do we do better?
02:19:06 --> 02:19:12 You know, the vice president of the United States, and we had already heard
02:19:12 --> 02:19:21 the president or read his tweet, and Chrissy Noem, the secretary over Homeland Security,
02:19:22 --> 02:19:26 tried to defend this officer and said.
02:19:28 --> 02:19:36 And his name is getting out there. They've been trying to shield him ever since the incident occurred.
02:19:37 --> 02:19:43 Sources are saying the man's name is Jonathan Ross. It'll probably be the last time I say it.
02:19:43 --> 02:19:47 But when the vice president got up, J.D.
02:19:47 --> 02:19:53 Vance, and said that and tried to berate the press and basically with his full
02:19:53 --> 02:19:56 chest come out and support murder.
02:19:57 --> 02:20:03 See, it's one thing to do like a homing to say, well, you know,
02:20:03 --> 02:20:06 look, we need to investigate this. We need to get the facts.
02:20:06 --> 02:20:08 It's a terrible thing that happened.
02:20:09 --> 02:20:14 It's never a good thing when an officer has to use their weapon and we'll,
02:20:14 --> 02:20:17 you know, we're going to do a thorough investigation and find out the truth.
02:20:17 --> 02:20:19 But that's not what J.D. Vance said.
02:20:19 --> 02:20:24 J.D. Vance basically said she deserved to die.
02:20:25 --> 02:20:29 And I will say with my full chest, that's bullshit.
02:20:32 --> 02:20:37 Deserves to die, and especially for their political viewpoints,
02:20:37 --> 02:20:44 and especially if their political viewpoints are opposite mine or anybody else's, right?
02:20:44 --> 02:20:48 I want J.D. Vance to say that to that six-year-old kid,
02:20:49 --> 02:20:54 Renee's child, because that child is going to grow up,
02:20:54 --> 02:21:02 and that child is going to be exposed in this day and age of technology to how
02:21:02 --> 02:21:04 his mom died and how people reacted to it.
02:21:05 --> 02:21:09 And that child is going to see that the vice president of the country that he,
02:21:10 --> 02:21:17 was raised in at the moment of that tragedy basically said that his mom deserved to die.
02:21:17 --> 02:21:26 And I hope that fuels that young man to do good in his community and to stand up to people like J.D.
02:21:26 --> 02:21:30 Vance and forever oppose him.
02:21:31 --> 02:21:38 People talk about radicalization and what motivates people to take certain positions.
02:21:39 --> 02:21:41 Violence radicalizes people.
02:21:43 --> 02:21:48 Justification of violence radicalizes people.
02:21:48 --> 02:21:54 One of the reasons why Dr. King took the strategy of a Gandhi and shaped it
02:21:54 --> 02:21:59 in a way that African Americans, especially those of the Christian faith,
02:21:59 --> 02:22:07 could embrace because he understood that violence against violence was not the answer.
02:22:08 --> 02:22:14 When you listen to people like Malcolm X and Huey Newton, they weren't advocating the violence.
02:22:14 --> 02:22:19 All they were doing was saying we have a right to defend ourselves against the violence.
02:22:19 --> 02:22:26 But to actively campaign against a violent society where people like Bull Connor
02:22:26 --> 02:22:30 and others of his ilk were going after people just so they could vote,
02:22:30 --> 02:22:34 just so they could sit wherever they wanted on a bus,
02:22:34 --> 02:22:41 just so they would have the decency to be able to go to the shop through the
02:22:41 --> 02:22:44 front door instead of the back or in the basement,
02:22:44 --> 02:22:52 where they could sit at a lunch counter to eat without being harassed or ignored.
02:22:52 --> 02:22:57 To be able to live their lives with the decency and dignity that every human
02:22:57 --> 02:23:02 being and especially every American citizen should be afforded,
02:23:03 --> 02:23:08 a movement based on nonviolence, was the strategy.
02:23:09 --> 02:23:18 And I can say that it was successful to the point where opportunities for people like me and others to.
02:23:20 --> 02:23:28 And for us to be involved in the political process. Much to the dismay and the
02:23:28 --> 02:23:30 chagrin of people like J.D.
02:23:30 --> 02:23:36 Vance, like Steve Bannon, like the Miller family, and others of that ilk.
02:23:36 --> 02:23:39 These people are just descendants of Bull Connor.
02:23:41 --> 02:23:47 Genetically, maybe, but definitely philosophically. That it just bothers them
02:23:47 --> 02:23:49 that somebody that doesn't look like them,
02:23:50 --> 02:23:54 that's not a part of their culture could have the same opportunities,
02:23:54 --> 02:24:01 could have the same drive and the same level of success that they think that
02:24:01 --> 02:24:04 they're entitled to, that they think that they inherit it,
02:24:06 --> 02:24:11 And Renee Goode was the antithesis of that.
02:24:12 --> 02:24:20 This was a young woman, if it was true that she had compassion for those people
02:24:20 --> 02:24:28 who are immigrating into our nation and was opposed to her city becoming a police state.
02:24:28 --> 02:24:32 In those people's minds, her life was expendable.
02:24:33 --> 02:24:39 Well, Mr. Vice President, I'm here to tell you that her life was not expendable.
02:24:39 --> 02:24:45 She did not deserve to die. She did not deserve to die in that brutal of a fashion.
02:24:46 --> 02:24:53 And I am glad that people of all races, of all nationalities,
02:24:53 --> 02:24:58 ethnic groups, the citizens of Minneapolis are saying enough is enough.
02:24:59 --> 02:25:07 And yeah, the mayor let his heart out and basically told you where you could
02:25:07 --> 02:25:12 go and how you could get there and said that your presence is not welcome in this city.
02:25:12 --> 02:25:18 And he was already feeling some kind of way because of how are you trying to
02:25:18 --> 02:25:25 disparage a member of Congress from his city, as well as the community she comes from,
02:25:25 --> 02:25:27 the Somali community in Minneapolis.
02:25:28 --> 02:25:31 And again, it's all a place of...
02:25:33 --> 02:25:39 Racism, systemic and just raw racism.
02:25:39 --> 02:25:47 And, you know, in one sense, I should be incensed and just totally out of character.
02:25:47 --> 02:25:52 But, you know, one thing is that when you step on someone's toe,
02:25:52 --> 02:25:53 they're going to say, ouch.
02:25:54 --> 02:26:02 And that old colloquialism means that those who are guilty will confess.
02:26:02 --> 02:26:08 And so it is a good moment in one sense that people like J.D.
02:26:08 --> 02:26:13 Vance and Donald Trump and Kristi Noem and Steve Bannon and the Miller family
02:26:13 --> 02:26:15 are exposing themselves,
02:26:15 --> 02:26:25 even more to a broader public so that we know who the true enemy is and that
02:26:25 --> 02:26:31 we do everything to make sure that they do not have political power ever again.
02:26:31 --> 02:26:38 Just talking to Mr. Hornado, you know, I'm reminded that Indiana at one point
02:26:38 --> 02:26:40 was a stronghold for the Ku Klux Klan.
02:26:41 --> 02:26:47 They literally controlled every major political office in the state of Indiana.
02:26:48 --> 02:26:52 But eventually, the corruption was exposed,
02:26:52 --> 02:26:56 their true nature was exposed, and even
02:26:56 --> 02:27:02 those people who empathize with that sentiment of racism and discrimination
02:27:02 --> 02:27:07 realize that they did not want
02:27:07 --> 02:27:13 to associate with the character or lack thereof of members of the Klan.
02:27:15 --> 02:27:23 And that basically was the end of their political power as an organization in the United States.
02:27:24 --> 02:27:30 And just as quickly as they attained it, it was taken away. And so this year.
02:27:32 --> 02:27:35 3rd, 2026, we can do the same thing.
02:27:36 --> 02:27:44 We can get rid of this, not forever, and not totally eradicate it because there
02:27:44 --> 02:27:51 are too many people infected with this disease of racism, but we can take away their political power.
02:27:51 --> 02:27:57 We can limit their political discourse because they'll always have the right
02:27:57 --> 02:28:03 as Americans to say whatever stupid shit they want to say, right?
02:28:04 --> 02:28:09 That's the give and take of the First Amendment. But it doesn't mean that they
02:28:09 --> 02:28:12 need to be in positions of leadership ever again.
02:28:12 --> 02:28:17 You can stand on any street corner you want to. You can have your little clubs,
02:28:17 --> 02:28:19 wherever the case may be.
02:28:19 --> 02:28:25 But as far as representing us on a local, state, county,
02:28:26 --> 02:28:35 or national or international stage, we cannot afford for another 250 years to
02:28:35 --> 02:28:40 have anybody of that ilk in leadership positions again.
02:28:40 --> 02:28:47 Too many people have died Too many people have suffered Too many people have been uncomfortable.
02:28:48 --> 02:28:55 Because of that mindset Because of that type of leadership And it is time for
02:28:55 --> 02:29:01 that to end I cannot stress enough how pissed off I am.
02:29:03 --> 02:29:09 That kind of rhetoric coming from the national leadership of this nation.
02:29:09 --> 02:29:12 It was one thing to grow up black in America.
02:29:13 --> 02:29:19 And my parents, my grandparents had to deal with this sort of stuff.
02:29:20 --> 02:29:25 And a lot of people thought that once Woodrow Wilson stroked out,
02:29:25 --> 02:29:28 that that would be the end of that presence in the White House.
02:29:28 --> 02:29:40 But, you know, some folks were more artful and crafty in how they articulated those viewpoints,
02:29:40 --> 02:29:44 but it wasn't totally eliminated from leadership.
02:29:44 --> 02:29:50 But now, this is, as General Travis would say, this is where we draw the line.
02:29:52 --> 02:29:59 And, you know, we thought in the summer of 2020, people got the message.
02:30:00 --> 02:30:09 And in the subsequent elections, Donald Trump and his ilk were folded out for the most part.
02:30:10 --> 02:30:16 But just like a Hydra, you can't just cut off one head. You got to cut them all off.
02:30:17 --> 02:30:22 And November 3rd, 2026 is our moment.
02:30:23 --> 02:30:27 You know, it's very easy for people to say, well, we need to take up arms and
02:30:27 --> 02:30:28 we need to do this and do that.
02:30:28 --> 02:30:34 No, we need to do what people are doing all over the country now and protesting.
02:30:34 --> 02:30:39 The No Kings rallies were a solid foundation in that.
02:30:39 --> 02:30:46 And as the elections that have ensued since then have shown is that we can take
02:30:46 --> 02:30:51 them out with the most powerful tool we have as citizens of this nation,
02:30:51 --> 02:30:53 and that's the power of the vote.
02:30:54 --> 02:30:59 So if you really want to honor the legacy of a George Floyd or a Renee Good
02:30:59 --> 02:31:08 or a Philando Castile or Sandra Bland, Tamir Rice,
02:31:09 --> 02:31:14 All of these young men and women who have died at the hands of police violence,
02:31:15 --> 02:31:17 Fred Hampton, Mark Clark.
02:31:18 --> 02:31:19 Just all of these people.
02:31:20 --> 02:31:30 You know, you heard me talk about Viola Liuzzo when I was talking to Dr. Goddard.
02:31:30 --> 02:31:36 She was just taking people home from the Selma to Montgomery march when she
02:31:36 --> 02:31:42 got murdered. There was another preacher the day before that had come down for
02:31:42 --> 02:31:44 the march and was murdered.
02:31:45 --> 02:31:49 We're not trying to all be Joan of Arc.
02:31:51 --> 02:31:57 They're trying to be martyrs. And so, unfortunately, when you're dealing with
02:31:57 --> 02:31:59 evil, those things happen.
02:31:59 --> 02:32:05 But if you want to defeat this, then you've got to vote them out.
02:32:06 --> 02:32:14 I don't care what promises they make. I don't care what late night confessions they try to offer.
02:32:15 --> 02:32:17 Their true nature has been exposed.
02:32:18 --> 02:32:26 If miraculously gas prices and food prices and everything went down 10 to 20 percent.
02:32:27 --> 02:32:31 It's not enough because it's more than just that.
02:32:32 --> 02:32:37 It's one thing to live in a society where we can afford to live in it.
02:32:37 --> 02:32:41 But it's not just about money. It's about peace of mind.
02:32:42 --> 02:32:47 And as long as these people have any say-so in our day-to-day lives,
02:32:47 --> 02:32:50 we'll never have true affordability.
02:32:50 --> 02:32:55 We'll never be able to truly live abundantly because things can be cheap,
02:32:56 --> 02:32:58 but things will still be oppressive.
02:32:59 --> 02:33:04 And I spent 34 years in a state that is a model of that.
02:33:05 --> 02:33:10 Yeah, it's not expensive to live in Mississippi, but that's.
02:33:12 --> 02:33:17 Still there. And they might cloak it in whatever kind of smooth Christian national
02:33:17 --> 02:33:19 rhetoric they'll put out there.
02:33:19 --> 02:33:23 Oh, well, you know, we're just doing God's will and all that kind of stuff.
02:33:25 --> 02:33:31 No, it's not God's will to be racist. It's not God's will for us to be violent.
02:33:32 --> 02:33:36 It's not God's will for us to be greedy. It's time out for that.
02:33:37 --> 02:33:44 I mean, just think about it, Y'all, a woman whose last name was good was murdered.
02:33:45 --> 02:33:52 That should be enough. Should have been enough for after Alton Sterling and
02:33:52 --> 02:33:56 Meg Evers and Dr. King and all the others.
02:33:56 --> 02:33:59 But it's got to be now.
02:34:00 --> 02:34:05 We don't have the luxury of being apathetic and not caring about politics anymore.
02:34:06 --> 02:34:11 You just heard Indianapolis went from one of the most active political cities
02:34:11 --> 02:34:14 in the state to one of the most apathetic.
02:34:16 --> 02:34:20 Has just been gradually getting re-energized.
02:34:20 --> 02:34:24 But now, now, this is our moment.
02:34:24 --> 02:34:29 And just as bold as J.D. Vance got up there on that podium, we need to be just
02:34:29 --> 02:34:31 as bold showing up on election day.
02:34:32 --> 02:34:36 You want to stand 10 toes down with murdered, and we're going to stand 10 toes
02:34:36 --> 02:34:42 down in removing power from people like you and your supporters.
02:34:43 --> 02:34:48 I don't care how much money they spend. to try to convince you otherwise.
02:34:49 --> 02:34:58 What you see on your television, what you are hearing from the witnesses need to be your guide.
02:34:59 --> 02:35:00 Enough is enough.
02:35:02 --> 02:35:07 And I will continue to do my part on this podcast to encourage you to do this
02:35:07 --> 02:35:12 and to continue to bring people to the forefront that are fighting these battles every day.
02:35:13 --> 02:35:16 I may even get some people from the other side to come on.
02:35:16 --> 02:35:22 They've been invited. They show up, we'll give them a mic, but they've going
02:35:22 --> 02:35:24 to have to be accountable. Right?
02:35:26 --> 02:35:33 And I want you all to hold those people in account as well. It's time. It's time.
02:35:34 --> 02:35:40 And Lord willing, we'll address this some more next episode,
02:35:40 --> 02:35:45 but until then, y'all, we just got to keep fighting.
02:35:45 --> 02:35:50 You just got to keep fighting. And November 3rd should be circled on your calendar.