[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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[00:01:21] Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
[00:01:42] We've got a great podcast for you today. I'm glad to have you all listening in, especially during these interesting times where
[00:01:54] we've got a former president in a criminal trial, you have shots fired in the Middle East.
[00:02:03] I know there's a lot of things that people are dealing with. A lot of people are paying attention to.
[00:02:13] Hopefully these guests coming on will enlighten you on some issues that they're going to talk about.
[00:02:25] Even though it's going to be a political conversation, kind of escape from some of the negative stuff that we're dealing with.
[00:02:34] Just understand that even though there are some things that are hitting the headlines, there's some stuff that we still need to work on in this country.
[00:02:44] It doesn't really matter what viewpoints you have on it.
[00:02:49] Again, the role of this podcast is to make sure that you get as many viewpoints as possible so that your viewpoint will be an educated one.
[00:02:58] Alright, so having said all that, let's kick this off with a moment of news from Grace G.
[00:03:07] Thanks, Eric.
[00:03:13] The first criminal trial involving a former U.S. president began April 15th as jury selection commenced in Donald Trump's Hush Money Trial.
[00:03:23] The U.S. House of Representatives transmitted articles of impeachment on Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas to the U.S. Senate.
[00:03:31] The Senate quickly dismissed the charges citing they were unconstitutional.
[00:03:35] President Biden informed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that the U.S. would not support a counteroffensive against Iran following an Iranian attack on Israeli territory.
[00:03:46] Iran launched the attack over a suspected Israeli strike on its embassy compound in Syria.
[00:03:51] Donald Trump endorsed House Speaker Mike Johnson amidst internal Republican dissent.
[00:03:56] Trump criticized Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene for threatening to oust Johnson over disagreements on Ukraine aid and other issues.
[00:04:05] The U.S. Supreme Court allowed a Black Lives Matter activist to be sued by a police officer injured during a 2016 protest.
[00:04:13] The U.S. Equal Opportunity Commission announced a rule stating employers' obligations to accommodate workers' pregnancies extends to abortions and contraception use.
[00:04:23] President Biden spoke at the National Action Network Conference, highlighting his administration's efforts to narrow the racial wealth gap which has seen significant improvement under his policies.
[00:04:34] The state of California sued Huntington Beach alleging the city's new voter identification law violates state law.
[00:04:41] A bipartisan group of U.S. senators introduced a bill to renew the African Growth and Opportunity Act for 16 years until 2041.
[00:04:50] A global survey by localities indicated a rise in pessimism and a shift towards more liberal views worldwide except among young American men who have become more conservative.
[00:05:01] And a Pew Research Center survey revealed that most U.S. teachers worry about the possibility of a shooting at their school.
[00:05:09] I am Grace G. And this has been a moment of news.
[00:05:21] All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
[00:05:26] And now it's time for our first guest.
[00:05:30] His name is Kevin A. Sabat, Dr. Kevin A. Sabat, an affiliate of the Institution for Social and Policy Studies and the Medical School at Yale University and dubbed by NBC News as the Prodigy of Drug Politics
[00:05:49] and by Salon as the quarterback of the new anti-drug movement, author, consultant and advisor to three U.S. presidential administrations.
[00:05:59] Kevin A. Sabat has studied, researched, written about and implemented drug policy for over 25 years.
[00:06:08] He is the only person appointed by Republican and Democrats to work at the White House Drug Office.
[00:06:14] Kevin is currently the president and CEO of the Foundation for Drug Policy Solutions, FDPS and SAM, Smart Approaches to Marijuana.
[00:06:25] Two nonprofit organizations he founded with Congressman Patrick Kennedy.
[00:06:29] His latest book, Smoke Screen, What the Marijuana Industry Doesn't Want You to Know, distributed by Simon and Schuster,
[00:06:36] won the Next Generation Indie Book Award in the Social Justice category and has been optioned for a documentary film.
[00:06:45] His upcoming book, One Nation Under the Influence, will be published by Polyde in 2025.
[00:06:52] He regularly publishes op-eds and his work has been seen in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post and other publications.
[00:07:01] He is also a regular columnist for Newsweek.
[00:07:05] He received his doctorate and master's degrees from Oxford University and a BA from the University of California, Berkeley.
[00:07:12] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Dr. Kevin A. Sabat.
[00:07:31] All right, Dr. Kevin Sabat, how are you doing? So are you doing good?
[00:07:39] I'm doing well, Eric. Thanks so much for having me. How are you?
[00:07:42] Oh, I'm doing fine and it's really, really an honor for me to have you on.
[00:07:46] You have been a national figure when it comes to dealing with drug policy.
[00:07:55] So, for you to come on my little old podcast, I'm deeply honored to have you on.
[00:08:01] Well, you have a great show. I was able to check it out so I'm honored to be on myself.
[00:08:05] Well, thank you, sir. What I'd like to do is start off with a quote and it may be something you may have said, something you wrote or relating to the topic.
[00:08:15] So your quote is, make no mistake about it. Legalization is not about, you know, Cheech and Chong smoking marijuana or, you know, a grateful dead concert.
[00:08:27] It's about creating the next Marlboro of our time, the next Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds, the big tobacco all over again.
[00:08:37] Talk to me about that quote.
[00:08:40] Yeah, no, it's money. Unfortunately, driving this move to normalize drug use starting with marijuana, but don't get me wrong, it will not stop there and it hasn't stopped there.
[00:08:49] We're talking now about mushrooms, psychedelics, LSD, ecstasy giving pills to people addicted to heroin, getting them, you know, deadly pain pills.
[00:09:02] But, but you know that quote was in the context of marijuana, although it could be applied to anything because, you know, I hear a lot of reasons why we should legalize from very enlightened people.
[00:09:12] Reasons about social justice and war on drugs. Reasons about tax revenue. Reasons about, you know, well, maybe they'll keep it away from kids because, you know, you don't drug dealers don't ask for ID, right?
[00:09:28] So but the storefront does a lot of things that sound really good actually on their face. And I don't disagree with even some of the premises we can get into the war on drugs issue in particular.
[00:09:39] But the real reason this is even advancing the real motivation and the outcome not only just the motivation, but the outcome is money for a small number of people.
[00:09:51] And it's the story that we've seen in America time and time again when it comes to really any addictive product, surely any product in particular at all.
[00:10:00] You try and increase use as much as possible, whether that's safe or not.
[00:10:05] So you know if you're, and then you lie about it by the way you lie about if there's anything wrong with it.
[00:10:11] You don't want ever to for there to be the impression that there's something wrong with your product.
[00:10:16] So that's why we see Boeing, you know, saying that there was nothing wrong with their product until a door fell off and people almost died and people did die four or five years ago with the original system that they released right with the multiple crashes in Southeast Asia.
[00:10:30] You have, you know, Volkswagen that basically goose their engines and there was a huge issue with diesel engines and they hit it forever.
[00:10:42] But I think the most notorious in our history is tobacco.
[00:10:44] And that's why I talked about the Morrison and Marlboro, whether it's the menthol cigarettes targeting the black community.
[00:10:50] But beyond that, just targeting young people targeting anybody vulnerable so they could get a lifelong customer because it was about money.
[00:10:57] And I don't think we should expect marijuana to be any different.
[00:11:00] Why would that be different?
[00:11:01] Because all of a sudden we're more enlightened than we were 30 years ago.
[00:11:04] No, it's because it's about money.
[00:11:06] It's about a small number of people, frankly, that look a lot like me, not like you Eric that are getting that are making the money, even though they're pretending that it's about people like you.
[00:11:15] And it's just frankly, I find it insulting.
[00:11:18] That isn't anything to say about also the harms of it, which they're not even talking about.
[00:11:23] This is a fundamentally different drug today.
[00:11:25] So that's really the depth of what I met there with the quote.
[00:11:29] So what happened at UC Berkeley to lead you on this path of drug policy activism?
[00:11:36] Well, it actually happened before that even I grew up in a mainly white middle overclassed neighborhood in Orange County, California.
[00:11:44] It wasn't the richest OC that you see on TV with the beachfront mangins, but it also wasn't the traditionally poorer side of Santa Ana with the huge influx of Mexican immigrants.
[00:11:56] It was sort of in between, but it was a middle upper class and it was a place that certainly wanted to identify with the upper class and with the white coastal neighborhoods, not with the inland Latino neighborhoods.
[00:12:08] And that's important I say that because drugs was something that my community wanted to pretend didn't exist really.
[00:12:16] And interestingly, it was a far right wing libertarian.
[00:12:20] I mean so far right that it's you know we don't want anything to do with government libertarian school board that essentially cut off programs for kids my age that were helping them deal with issues like drugs obviously including alcohol alcohol.
[00:12:37] Alcohol's drug. And so I noticed that that was happening and that really rubbed me the wrong way I never had alcohol or drugs in my family I'm not in recovery myself, you know I don't have that kind of story that I can you know talk about.
[00:12:52] But I saw it all around me and I saw some really bad things happening, and I wanted to increase the awareness and I basically got the doors slammed in my face, we don't want to talk about this.
[00:13:04] And I really pushed the issue a lot I was just that kind of kid. And I wanted to get out of Orange County, as my as as as far away as I could by the time I was 18 I just was disillusioned with the environment what was happening and of course now I look back you know 25 years later
[00:13:22] and I took that 75 degrees sunny weather, and 10 minute proximity to Disneyland and 10 minute proximity to the beach. I took that for granted. You don't realize what you have I think at the time right.
[00:13:34] But I but at the time and I just want to get out of there and so I wanted to go to a place that was actually ideologically opposite and see what that was like.
[00:13:42] So that's why I went to Berkeley. And when I went to Berkeley, I was equally as startled with what I saw and experienced, but it was in a different way so in Orange County it was the lack of action, you know I wanted to shake people sometimes hey, we got to wake up this is an issue
[00:14:02] and I just sort of that's that's what I felt like in Berkeley it was it was, it was the opposite it was the what I saw, it was just astounded me and it wasn't the lack of something it was all the things that were there.
[00:14:15] And at the time, it was marijuana shops popping up everywhere because the state had voted for medical marijuana when I was in high school. And interestingly enough, I was inclined to be in favor of medical marijuana because I thought it was about cancer patients, and I have cancer in my family
[00:14:31] that was the TV commercial. It was a cancer patient that was I'll never forget that TV commercial. And when you but when you peel back the onion you saw that it wasn't about cancer and now you know 30 years later, we chuckle because you know, 19 year old with a
[00:14:46] nail or a headache and get a medical marijuana card in almost every state in this country so it's a joke about what that was, but I was so you know this I was saying wait a minute this is not about medicine this is about full legalization.
[00:15:00] And I dug deeper and found it was about a few billionaires who invested in this and wanted to make money and I was just thickened by that and so at Berkeley I saw that up front.
[00:15:08] And I thought you know what a contrast because here you have the hippie movement, the socialist movement, the free speech movement, people who hated corporate America, and they were unknowingly walking into the biggest corporate trap of that time.
[00:15:21] And I thought, wow, okay, something is a miss here and I started talking with people. And they just didn't really understand what I was saying, a lot of people I didn't agree with me, but then I had a lot of people that did agree with me kind of quietly so we started a group called
[00:15:34] Citizens for a Drug Free Berkeley which I liked the joke was about as popular as the coalition for a wine free France.
[00:15:42] But, but you know, but the reality was actually there was a lot of supporters but they were in the shadows, they were afraid to talk. They were very happy to have me kind of talk up front and I got a lot of backlash for that I got, you know, threatening calls and emails and some things I had to report.
[00:15:59] That's kind of where I developed my thick skin. And I really enjoyed my time there though it was a wonderful time for discussions and debates and ideas, but it wasn't without cost I mean it was there were some scary moments I guess in this issue dealing with this issue we used to go to raves and night clubs and pass out postcards of your brain of actually your brain on drugs like real
[00:16:23] like your actual picture of your brain, what it looks like when it is addicted to drugs and using drugs and that time it was MDMA ecstasy, because the late 90s was a big time people will remember for raves and ecstasy use.
[00:16:37] And we so wasn't just about marijuana but we used to go do that and walk in the not greatest parts of San Francisco at you know midnight. I don't think my parents knew much about it thank God they would have killed me.
[00:16:49] That's kind of where I developed my thick skin and my thoughts about this.
[00:16:54] So Vice President Harris recently said that no one should go to jail for smoking weed, and has asked the health and human services and the Department of Justice to quickly change the scheduling for marijuana.
[00:17:08] You publicly stated earlier in the year that President Biden is not in favor of legalizing marijuana, and that you were skeptical to rescheduling what happened. Do you still think your assessment on Biden's position, or the rescheduling will happen before the election.
[00:17:26] Well on the first part I mean nothing's changed President Biden's been pretty clear that he's against marijuana legalization, full scale that's different than what it's Vice President. Thanks.
[00:17:36] But he thinks that and he's the boss and he's a leader of the Democratic Party and you know, I've had so many Democrats kind of in the closet on this issue to me, he's quietly tell me including a former very, you know, is sort of household name that I just talked to yesterday.
[00:17:55] And I'm not going to say for President. I'll keep him nameless so that he doesn't get in trouble for this, basically telling me he told me that his positions reversed he used to be in favor but it's so bad now.
[00:18:05] He sees it so proliferating and so commercialized that he's against what we're doing with legalization, and the president's been against it and been pretty, pretty strong on it.
[00:18:15] And I do stand by that in terms of rescheduling, I don't know I don't have a crystal ball about what's going to happen but people need to understand the rescheduling does not mean legalizing.
[00:18:25] So that's interesting that the terms of the debate have actually changed and now the industry will take anything that they can get because they've got nothing on the federal level ever.
[00:18:34] And so they they will take anything they can get and so you know for the industry actually it does help them because it actually gives them tax write offs so they can advertise their gummies and ice creams and kid friendly sodas and edibles and oils and you know today's marijuana is 30 to 40 times stronger than the marijuana of even 15 years ago, they
[00:18:57] can advertise these concentrates they can advertise all of it and get a tax write off so they're very excited about that.
[00:19:03] And I think that what's interesting is that the groups that I usually spar against about the merits of legalization, they're actually against the rescheduling of marijuana and they want it to be legalized that's why they're against it so they're against it for different reasons, but even
[00:19:22] the fact that rescheduling is just a giveaway to this industry and they're against that and kudos to them for actually saying it's not about headlines for us because the headlines going to be if they do it, you know, marijuana reclassified
[00:19:33] people are going to think that means legalization no one's following the fine print here. I mean no one the vast majority of Americans are not following it. So kudos to actually them that I normally am sparring with.
[00:19:44] We just have a genuine disagreement about whether legalizations good or not, but at least they're even admitting yeah this isn't even going to legalize it this is not what we want either so it's an interesting discussion that's happening.
[00:19:56] So Patrick Kennedy has been a major ally of yours in this fight. Yet his cousin, Robert F. Kennedy Jr said that he wants to decriminalize marijuana create safe banking laws for cannabis business which they rescheduling would help
[00:20:13] and create a federal tax while also legalizing some psychedelic drugs. You stated that he along with others were confounding terms, expound on that. Yes.
[00:20:25] Well people are confounding decriminalization with legalization. We've had a campaign that says decriminalize don't legalize and some people said well Kevin wait a minute you're the most anti drug guy out there you're saying that.
[00:20:38] And I said yeah we're not saying people should go to prison for smoking a joint. If you have an addiction, you shouldn't go to jail that's not the first place that we need to be you know the first resort that's to be the last resort.
[00:20:50] We want to get you help and said that this is a health issue you treat it like a real disease out so it's a behavioral disease bio behavioral disease so it's a little different than you know heart disease or something but but but it's something that we will want to treat and prevent.
[00:21:05] And and so absolutely I don't want to see people behind bars I think we went overboard 30 years ago with mandatory minimum sentencing. I can understand where people were coming from with that and they were coming from a very different environment, but I don't think it's good now it's not applicable now I.
[00:21:22] I don't think people should be in prison or get have records that prevent them from getting housing or healthcare education or a job I mean, how does that make sense you got convicted for something 30 years ago for smoking a joint because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time really and probably the wrong skin color.
[00:21:38] And then now you still can't get a job to get your life back together I mean that makes absolutely no sense so I agree with what the the pardoning that's gone on.
[00:21:47] And it's different decriminalizing is different than legalizing so that's just the thing that I think people need to understand legalize really means commercialize and that's why Patrick Kennedy joined me on this and actually really had the idea to do this to raise awareness.
[00:22:05] About the negatives of commercializing today's high potency THC, I think.
[00:22:13] RFK is misinformed. I think actually I mean I think it's smart guy I think if we actually got in front of them and talk to him.
[00:22:20] You know, I don't know if you would be so strident in his views on this, but I think he probably sees it as also a way to get some extra votes.
[00:22:27] I don't think it matters to be honest to the Eric I think that this campaign will be a footnote in history.
[00:22:33] So I don't think it really matters but I think he doesn't probably influence a lot of young people, and I wish his rhetoric would change. Absolutely I would be I would love to talk to about this.
[00:22:42] You know obviously it's it's awkward because I don't think he has the greatest relationship with the rest of his cousins right and family, but, but I think that he's a smart guy and I think that if he heard the truth on this.
[00:22:53] I actually think his mind would rhetoric could change.
[00:22:57] So I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Keith Strop of normal between the late 1960s and early 1990s pro legalization attitudes fluctuated within a 15 point range from 12 to 27% approval.
[00:23:14] What approval rate is now at 70%. Why do you think there has been a shift in public opinion toward legalization.
[00:23:23] So I'll answer that question but I want to challenge the premise for a second Eric and that premises that that that number is actually accurate and let me tell you why I challenge that a little bit.
[00:23:33] When we do surveys with the most prompt one of the best polling shops in the country rated by the New York Times I think they got an A rating, which is called Emerson College polling and nonpartisan you know it's not right or left it's very moderate.
[00:23:48] They're really center. They, they're polling shows that when people are given the choice of decriminalization which we just talked about is different than legalization.
[00:23:58] When it's about not arresting people or putting them in prison, which is what decriminalization is, whereas legalization is says, not only we're not going to do that but we want to sell it to you we want to advertise it, we want to commercialize it, we want to
[00:24:11] put it in a pot shop in your own community.
[00:24:14] Which by the way the pot where are the pot shops in this country they're centralized focused in horror communities of color. Surprise surprise right that is exactly what happened with alcohol.
[00:24:25] So when you go to the poor communities that have fewer supports to get lifelong customers I think that's an environmental racism, if there ever is one on the environment, not the climate but the environment of behavior and of positive, you know, sort of future
[00:24:43] people. It's right there. It's structural racism right there. But so but the issue is a lot of people choose decriminalization when they're given a choice in the poll that you mentioned which is a they're they're also very good polls and few is very good Gallup I mean I'm not questioning sort of
[00:25:00] the poll with the nature of the poll, but the question I'm questioning actually is because I'm questioning it because it's just saying, do you believe in the legalization of marijuana use it doesn't even ask about sales.
[00:25:14] It doesn't make a difference between decrim and legalization so you know that I question that being said, I'm not denying that the popularity of marijuana has increased in the last 40 years so the, the, the, you know, the nature of your
[00:25:29] ballot right the spirit of it is still valid because you're essentially we can argue about the questioning you're essentially saying, why has this become more popular and it has absolutely.
[00:25:39] It has because there's been a brilliant billionaire funded multi billionaire funded campaign to normalize it in our country so that they've gotten their money's worth they've been able to change public opinion by distorting the science which is what big tobacco did for
[00:25:54] 80 years by promoting their product is fun and cool which is what big tobacco did for 80 years, promoting it as medicine. So it's not only not bad for you Eric it's good for you should take it for your ailments.
[00:26:09] Big tobacco did that for over 100 years. We used to have asthma cigarettes if you're none of us will remember that from the late 1800s we used to have cigarettes for dental issues cigarette I mean it's quite it's crazy what what it used to be advertised for big
[00:26:23] tobacco. We've had celebrity endorsements. Oh well big tobacco did that they probably hired every single a list actor to be in movies and smoke cigarettes in the 50s etc.
[00:26:35] They did free giveaways and parties and conventions marijuana is doing that right now so they're following the exact same playbook so yeah, when you follow that playbook and you have a lot of money behind it, you can change public opinion so kudos to the marijuana industry for
[00:26:48] successfully change public opinion from what it was because they're following the same deceitful and deceiving this tactics of big tobacco.
[00:26:56] So you kind of touched on my next question a little bit but I want you to go deeper. How is Big Marijuana praying on communities of color.
[00:27:06] Well it's praying on multiple ways number one it's targeting communities of color, just like big tobacco did. And it's doing that by mainly trying to place pot shops in poor communities and there's been a lot of pushback there's put there is pushback on it we work with very closely ironically with Compton California
[00:27:23] they don't want to be known as marijuana even though snoop is from there and the word chronic I think was coined in Compton. They don't want to be known for that they want to be known for the fact that they have an incredible history in the black movement and freedom in this country and business entrepreneurial
[00:27:39] but that's what they want to be known for it's what they tell me they want to be known for and so there have been exceptions like Compton which has such a rich history, but they're but that's an exception that unfortunately you go to places in Washington DC you go to Baltimore you go to different parts of
[00:27:53] LA you go to different parts of northern California. And you see this concentration and poor communities and communities of color so they want to go after the most vulnerable. And they've done that they've also done that with some product placement and celebrity endorsement, but they've really done it with where
[00:28:06] the cops are located. And by the way, they've also done it in rhetoric by giving the false claim that we will release people from prison and jail and the war on drugs will be over and our imprisoning prison system will be a lot smaller if we legalize marijuana.
[00:28:21] And guess what we'd legalize marijuana in multiple states, and the prison systems are not shrinking because of that it was a it was a completely deceitful really wolf and sheeps clothing kind of argument.
[00:28:34] Alright, so let me let me let me go into that real quick and I want to come back on the race part. So this goes back to the Vice President's original statement what progress has been made in regards to criminal justice reform.
[00:28:49] So like I said, I've had a couple of guests on that are for legalization. And my last guest that I had on dealing with it basically said that the industry should be pushing for people that are have been sentenced for possession or selling marijuana
[00:29:12] The cannabis industry should be lobbying that if you want to legalize in your state that all those people need to be released.
[00:29:21] So talk to me about criminal justice reform and what you've been saying.
[00:29:26] Right, well the reality is that criminal justice reform is not marijuana legalization the industry doesn't care about that they just use it on slogans to get their laws passed so they can laugh all the way to the bank and make a lot of money and by the way, they are accessing banks.
[00:29:41] So this sort of false premise that they can't access banks is illegal. There's hundreds of banks working with the pot industry it's also a false.
[00:29:49] It's an invalid argument they they're doing the banking thing so they get investor money and they get billions of investment in a safe way that they're not doing it because they only have mountains of cash, maybe some people do but I guess those people are done
[00:30:02] enough not to find that you know hundreds and hundreds of banks, which are willing to work with the pot industry so I just want to put that thing aside for a minute.
[00:30:11] But it's not releasing people from prison. It's they're not wanting they don't want to do that. That's not what the industry cares but they claim to want but that's very hard.
[00:30:18] And by the way, you know, we if you want to talk about people releasing people from prison or with records for marijuana. We need to be talking about the state level not the federal level the federal level hasn't had a person in there for
[00:30:30] marijuana possession low level. I don't even know when the last time they did like there are not. There's nobody in the federal system who's smoking a joint and got caught, unless they were on a public park and sort of maybe it
[00:30:42] was, you know, federal lands and they were really at the wrong time they were there. But I don't even I don't even see the people like that, even on the state level, marijuana only possession in prison is less than 1% of the whole state prison population
[00:30:58] Let's be honest about why people are in prison they're in prison for a lot of other reasons. Some of those are not good reasons. Okay, I'm admitting that. But let's talk about that you want to talk about real criminal justice reform.
[00:31:09] You want to talk about the people serious about real criminal justice reform. Those people are not focusing on marijuana the industry is focused on marijuana and it's convenient and good argument for them.
[00:31:19] So, getting back to the race question. What do you say to critics that claim the only reason marijuana became illegal is because Mexican immigrants and black folks.
[00:31:32] Well, there look there are a lot of laws that unfortunately had a lot of racism.
[00:31:39] As part of them and I'm not denying that and of course they're that had to have been some part of it but when you actually look at the history and I'm doing that now for my next book.
[00:31:47] My last book was called smoke screen with the marijuana industry doesn't want you to know my next book is going to be called one nation under the influence. And it's really talking about drug policy generally but I do go into this history.
[00:31:59] First of all, Mexico banned marijuana before we did. So they saw the negative effects and banned it Mexico did the country makes.
[00:32:08] So, yes, this was being brought partly from Mexico but we are really painting the two brought up a brush when we say that it was about jazz musicians and Mexican immigrants.
[00:32:24] That was part of it must have been part of it but you had leaders in those communities by the way talk about the negative effects of marijuana.
[00:32:32] You had the doctors talk about the negative effects of marijuana and you had negative effects cited for marijuana since the early 1800s, even before that so the negative effects were well documented.
[00:32:42] And actually interestingly, the drug sort of DEA type establishment at that time of the basically 100 years ago. They weren't even interested in marijuana at first they were very much focused on what was going on with the opium and heroin.
[00:32:57] They were not focused on cannabis and then they became focused on it when basically a lot of people started complaining that this is actually a big issue. Yes, the racial element I'm sure out them along, but we sometimes paint to brought up a brush, even if we say it was all about the drug.
[00:33:12] It's all because of those very horrible, hateful, terrible things. Let's admit that let's let's let's let's admit that apologize for it let's make amends for it let's not repeat it.
[00:33:23] But let's look today why this would be, you know, illegal and why why we shouldn't legalize it and today we shouldn't legalize it, because we are talking about something that is 2030 to 40 times stronger than it used to be.
[00:33:41] We're talking something that is, you know, much more harmful than it than it than it ever was. We're talking about something that is affecting people driving workplace brain etc.
[00:33:55] In a way that it never was and we are opening the door to create a new big tobacco I don't let me be very clear. I don't my issue is not with adults smoking a joint or eating a gummy in the privacy of their own home and then just like falling asleep that's not my issue.
[00:34:09] If it was I would say we should criminalize people before it right, but I don't. I say we should remove the criminal penalties. I don't want to criminalize people for it so that's bear.
[00:34:17] But my issue is with the commercialization the promotion, the normalization.
[00:34:23] I sort of leave you with this analogy of a speed limit. You know, we have speed limits to discourage people from speeding because when you speed you're more likely to crash and have a problem right.
[00:34:35] Do people speed anyway. Yes, they do. Do people speed and they're fine. Yes, they are. Do we need to put people in prison for speeding 10 miles over the speed limit. No, we don't.
[00:34:45] So we can like, we can think about this in a smarter way without going to sort of one extreme or the other. But what I don't think is a good idea is to say, if you pay $100 tax Eric, you can go 250 miles an hour, and we're going to put your tax towards building a new hospital to pay for any problems.
[00:35:02] That's sort of what we're doing with marijuana. That doesn't make any sense because you're never going to those fees will never pay for that hospital. You're going to destroy lives. You're going to increase dangerousness on the road.
[00:35:11] If you get rid of speed limits and just let people pay 150 bucks who want to speak, that doesn't make any sense. So I don't know why we want to encourage people to do something that's harmful to others if they're doing it just to themselves and they do it without a problem.
[00:35:25] No one's giving them an issue for it, but that is very different than promoting it normalizing it commercializing it industrializing it.
[00:35:34] Yeah, so you kind of you took care of my last question for me so that gives me time to ask you about the book you mentioned when is that book coming out and this will be a good time for you to plug organization and
[00:35:50] how people can get smokescreen. I think you wrote another book prior to that. So just, just, I did my go ahead. Okay, so my first book. Yeah, so my first book is re for sanity seven great myths about marijuana it goes through the myth I wrote it when I left the Obama administration because I served for two and a half years in the
[00:36:08] Obama administration as a senior policy advisor. So when I left, I wrote that book. Then during the pandemic I wrote another book was a more of an independent investigation of the marijuana industry and its corruption.
[00:36:21] And it's called smokescreen what the marijuana industry doesn't want you to know.
[00:36:25] Now I'm working on a book called one nation under the influence it'll be out next year some point 2025 looking at drug policy a lot more generally.
[00:36:34] People can get involved they can go to our website learn about spam.org smart approaches to marijuana want to learn about Sam.
[00:36:42] And we'd love to have people get involved we have hackers all over the country we have affiliates all over the country, people working to raise awareness with their local leaders with their decision makers with their state leaders.
[00:36:54] We have an annual conference early in the year so there are a lot of different things.
[00:36:59] Well, Dr. Kevin subbed I greatly appreciate you coming on.
[00:37:04] One of the things that I try to do with my show is compared to other shows is regardless of what my political position or ideology may be.
[00:37:15] I want to get people on so that the listeners will have a fair shot.
[00:37:20] So since I had some people pro legalization on the show, especially your friend Mr. Strope I noticed you laugh what I've.
[00:37:29] You know I, you know I gotta say, Mr. people like Keith Strop I got to be honest with you. I think they came in with intentions they just wanted to smoke weed in the 1970s and not get bothered about it and not get arrested.
[00:37:40] I don't blame them. I mean, I wouldn't have done it. But I don't think it's a good thing to do but I that's different his movement has been hijacked.
[00:37:49] His movement has been completely hijacked by guys that look like me in suits with Harvard MBAs who never touch marijuana they'd never want to touch it in their whole life, but they want to make money from it so that when I look at my talk to Keith Strop and I think about him.
[00:38:00] It's just so interesting to see how that's changed.
[00:38:02] Yeah. Well, again, I wanted to make sure that when I had the opportunity to get somebody that may not agree with Mr. Strop and proponent so I'm glad that you took that opportunity and I'm really really honored to meet you and
[00:38:20] meet forward to talking to you in the future on this podcast.
[00:38:23] Happy to. Thanks so much Eric. I appreciate it.
[00:38:26] All right guys and we'll catch y'all on the other side.
[00:38:32] All right.
[00:38:42] And we are back and so now is time for my next guest.
[00:38:56] Malia C. Lazzu.
[00:39:00] Malia C. Lazzu is an award winning tenured strategist in diversity and inclusion, and a lecturer in the technological innovation, entrepreneurship and strategic management group at the MIT Sloan School of Management.
[00:39:16] She is a former EVP and regional president of Berkshire Bank and the creator of several accelerators designed to support minority owned businesses in the Boston area, as well as the consultancy of the Lazzu group.
[00:39:35] She is the author of from intention to impact a practical guide to diversity, equity and inclusion.
[00:39:45] And that's from the MIT Press.
[00:39:49] So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Malia C. Lazzu.
[00:40:05] All right.
[00:40:13] Malia Lazzu. How are you doing ma'am? You doing good?
[00:40:17] I'm doing well. I'm doing well. How are you doing sir?
[00:40:20] I'm doing lovely Malia as I've been instructed to call you.
[00:40:26] I'm really, really honored to have you on one of my even though this is a political show per se, one of my pet issues deals with diversity, equity and inclusion.
[00:40:40] And I think that this is a political issue.
[00:40:45] Thanks to some of my conservative friends. And so anytime I get some, I get a chance to get somebody with some expertise and somebody who's written a book about it.
[00:40:58] I want to get them on the podcast to get their viewpoints.
[00:41:02] So that's one.
[00:41:03] Number two, the first thing I do with a guest is I throw a quote at him.
[00:41:11] Right. And so it's either something that they might have written something that they might have said or something that relates to the work.
[00:41:19] So your quote is unity, not uniformity must be our aim.
[00:41:26] We attain unity from variety.
[00:41:29] Differences must be integrated, not absorbed, not annihilated.
[00:41:35] What does that quote mean to you?
[00:41:40] I mean, I think it's reflective. Right. I mean, I think it means it helps explain how we actually find one another. Right. We don't find one another through sameness.
[00:41:53] We find one another by discovering who we are as individuals and what that interconnectivity is. Right.
[00:42:03] In spite of us not needing to be the same.
[00:42:07] So the name of your book is from intention to impact.
[00:42:13] And there's a person that you reference a lot, Charles Mill, Mills I think his name is.
[00:42:22] And that was hit this particular quote was the one I was going to use but I'm going to use it to ask a question.
[00:42:29] I ask other D.I. specialist.
[00:42:34] And that quote is imagine an ignorance that resists that fights back.
[00:42:39] That quote leads to the question is D.I. dying in your estimation.
[00:42:47] I don't see how.
[00:42:50] I mean, you might need to change the words right I mean I'm old enough to remember when it was affirmative action there's people who are old enough to remember when it was called integration right there.
[00:43:02] I mean, this idea that somehow we're all going to just pack up and say like oh well I guess the corporate ladder is not for me or I guess you know I'm just not going to be valued here is a really privileged stance.
[00:43:15] I think it, it really ignores that D.I. are not just words not just platitudes but actually hard spot for philosophies that will build the US economy and that will strengthen business you know so I love that Charles Mills quote you know it's in my book as well and
[00:43:42] it's, it's really unfortunate you know that that we can't.
[00:43:48] I think it speaks to that ignorance this idea that oh D.I. is going to die you know like what women didn't just go back home after they were told to and World War two.
[00:44:01] You know, and so as long as there's those of us who appreciate the the ability to be valued and to bring value to society I don't think you killed D.I.
[00:44:18] Why did you decide to leave a position at Berkshire bank to become a D.I consultant and advocate.
[00:44:27] You know, at the time well so I should start to say that I didn't start off as a bank right I didn't have a goal to you know find my way up the corporate ladder and you know maybe be the CEO of a bank someday.
[00:44:46] And I went into the bank because I had an opportunity to make change you know to actually run a billion dollar P&L to see how one could align business with values and it was, it was an amazing experience to do.
[00:45:06] It was nothing that I had set out in my life to do you know so to get back to be able to affecting change on a larger scale is something that was going to be inevitable for me.
[00:45:21] So how did Harry Bella Fonte influence your career.
[00:45:28] You know, Harry.
[00:45:33] Their integrity is a really hard thing. Unfortunately, right like and, and I mean it and I get it right and we all we all understand those moments.
[00:45:46] I mean, watching someone who gave up so much, not willingly. Right, I mean he would have loved to have been able to support civil rights and his career right and have his career, but the culture at the time wouldn't allow for that.
[00:46:05] And so he gets blacklisted for support supporting Martin Luther King.
[00:46:11] And he continued on with that integrity so you know when I was working for him I would see him take stands on issues and watch his speaking calendar evaporate right like and you know I mean I'm not I'm not trying to say that Harry was broke that that wasn't it at all but
[00:46:34] he should have a right to live right in his country and make a living and so to watch him stay the things he said and you know, so often being on the right side of history right he went to Africa on those liberation struggles right he he stood by what he believed
[00:46:57] and allowed him to be to look historically very astute.
[00:47:05] First one to bring Nelson Mandela here. So working for living history like that and being able to see what it looks like day to day I mean when we started working his office was in his.
[00:47:20] I'm his apartment I'm saying apartment right it was Upper West Side beautiful like in the, in the you know public quarters of his apartment but I got to see how he made those decisions every day and start learning a little bit about why and how and I think that has really shaped the work that I do.
[00:47:43] What do you see are the biggest barriers companies face to increase diversity in the workplace.
[00:47:51] I think the biggest barriers they don't believe it's actually valuable.
[00:47:57] I think at the end of the day this idea that leadership looks a certain way right that the smartest room is filled with straight white men from Ivy League schools.
[00:48:12] That's all right, like that that that's still a narrative and you know here's another quote right it's not what you.
[00:48:23] What you don't know but it's what you know to be true that just ain't so this idea that diversity even needs to be pushed in this way shows how strong this narrative is right I mean because when you look at who we talk about when we're talking
[00:48:41] about diversity.
[00:48:44] Kind of everyone put straight white men.
[00:48:47] Everyone else seems to be trying to get in and you can't tell me that that's the most competitive way, you know, to run a business and I but I think so often because it is a room of straight white men for them it just makes sense where we're smart guys right we've made a
[00:49:09] lot of money for this company.
[00:49:11] Right, what do we need them for right and I think that's the biggest barrier to you know to really embracing DEI on the corporate level.
[00:49:24] Um, you know when we look at even the Supreme Court case that just came out.
[00:49:29] You know, I mean the military was like no we're not going to do that.
[00:49:35] No, we're not about that and you know in my book I quote, General Milley, because I thought he spoke to to you know, situational awareness right like the importance of learning about people in order to have a cohesive organization right in a competitive
[00:49:54] organization and so you know it's unfortunate that it DEI needs so much convincing because it seems like where it's most important your biology, your revenue streams your 401k diversity makes the most sense.
[00:50:12] Right and you know study you highlighted some studies that showed that companies that were more diverse were more profitable.
[00:50:20] And so if people are hung up in a capitalistic society about making money, it would seem like they would employ every strategy possible to make money legally.
[00:50:32] They'll do some illegal.
[00:50:34] Yeah, I mean they will do something illegal before they would diversify their workplace which I think is insane but that's, that's just me right and they have right and they have I mean it's, you know, and I think that's, you know, I've been talking a lot obviously about this with this
[00:50:54] book. And one of the things that comes up is well shouldn't businesses be doing this because it's the right thing to do.
[00:51:01] And I think so right but I also know that businesses do things for profits.
[00:51:08] Right, right that's why they can poison air and water and things like that right.
[00:51:16] And so if we're talking about strictly profit and I tell you that McKinsey, right not the NAACP but McKinsey, you know, global business consultancy firm is saying that diverse teams are up to 36% more profitable.
[00:51:37] If that was a widget you would have gotten it yesterday.
[00:51:40] Right, you're right but it's not an actually you need to change your narrative in order to do it and I think that that becomes really hard for people.
[00:51:52] So explain the term demographic agnostic.
[00:52:03] I mean, I think it is what it says right demographic agnostic you're not going to look at demographics of people maybe another way of saying it is colorblind or, you know, blind to people's lived experiences who they are.
[00:52:23] You know, I'm not sure what what usefulness determines but that's what I would think it with me.
[00:52:30] In chapter seven, you talked about the three L's as a response to well intentioned white people seeking assistance after the murder of George Floyd.
[00:52:41] What are the three L's and how can that make us ready to enter any community.
[00:52:48] So often when we're entering communities, there's you know just a general ignorance I mean like we know this if you've ever traveled I mean you don't even have to travel outside of this country right go from, you know, the south to the north right go from the east to the west right and,
[00:53:05] and there's things that you will learn about people.
[00:53:11] It's also important to be able to do that without burdening the communities that you want to learn from right I think that that's another important thing and so the three L's is a process in a way for you to come in to a community and be in right
[00:53:29] right be as as mutual as you pay right. And so the first is listen, because people will tell you who they are how they want to be treated what they're looking at doing what their agenda has been, you know, after George Floyd so many white
[00:53:53] people thought that a well intentioned question was, what can I do to help.
[00:54:01] Right, and the fact of the matter is, is what you could do to help has been being talked about for about 400 years now.
[00:54:10] Right. And so if you've listened to the community.
[00:54:15] That question would already get answered for you there would be a plethora of agendas some which contradict because guess what we don't all agree on what we should be doing with ourselves right like, so come in.
[00:54:28] Come in right here our conversation.
[00:54:31] Right, so I think the the first L of listen, you know, like my mother says you listen with a closed mouth.
[00:54:38] Right. You let your ears and and eyes do the working.
[00:54:44] And once you've listened and you sort of have somewhat of a cultural awareness right you understand the basics.
[00:54:54] Right, you come in.
[00:54:57] I should also say you listen, why did say the community like don't necessarily listen to a translated voice right but if you want to come into the Latino community to listen to Latino research right not to necessarily anthropological studies of them.
[00:55:15] The second, the second step is learn and you want to do that within the community. Right, so you want to be able to not only talk right but physically right like walk in have that proximity experience and learn.
[00:55:33] So what are some of the historical asks right what have people been asking for in a real way and why, why has that not happened. Get curious, right learn from curiosity.
[00:55:49] The last step is love or take loving action and I think this is where we so often fall down, especially as a corporation right sometimes it's easier to do this as an individual.
[00:56:07] Loving action means doing something that I would appreciate right something that would mean something to me. Like we've all gotten gifts that have let you know this person doesn't really know you know here's a candle.
[00:56:22] I live in an old house in Boston.
[00:56:27] But loving action is something that's useful and you know I after George Floyd we have an, you know we have this example of people saying what can we do right we're having these conversations and the outcome is the Juneteenth holiday, which is something
[00:56:49] special right you know sacred in some ways solemn right in in ways.
[00:56:57] But that's not necessarily what the black community was asking for right like the conversation we were having with much more around police reform.
[00:57:10] And so they, and, and equity there and so while Juneteenth might seem like oh look right the US has done something.
[00:57:22] They in fact didn't do what was being asked for and and so to think you can come in and you know I can't always be telling you what you can what you should do it yourself.
[00:57:37] And so I'm going to want to listen and learn from you and then help you live your best life and it looks the same at the macro level.
[00:57:49] Yeah, so you know it's kind of interesting to look at a political action as an act of love but if if President Biden had been more strident in pushing for the George Floyd, George Floyd Police Reform Act as opposed to being
[00:58:12] so what's the term one of you's enthusiastic as far as pushing for Juneteenth that would have been more appreciated in the community that was seeking
[00:58:23] Can you imagine relief yeah. Yeah, right and and it also would have been great if President Obama did it.
[00:58:31] Oh, and even better right. Yeah, right I mean we you know we know we're not going to get it from Trump but these police reform bills. There was probably the Emmett Till police reform bill.
[00:58:42] The police reform bill probably go back right the clan protection act or whatever we were asking for back then right um you know so this idea of we can't.
[00:58:57] I don't want to be ungrateful.
[00:59:03] But I also think that we, you know we.
[00:59:07] We don't want to give too much credits.
[00:59:12] For for actions that aren't very helpful, you know and I think if Biden if Pelosi right if others use that moments.
[00:59:23] It would have been very helpful to to our collective equity. Yeah.
[00:59:32] And you know, you had a good example in the book about at the very beginning talking about Walmart and ice cream. I think that's that's an incredible story. No one asked for that.
[00:59:50] Yeah, yeah I gotta read that but that's that's how she kicks the book off so I'm telling you this.
[00:59:56] You'll get the tone right away when you read that introduction.
[01:00:00] Walk us through the seven stages from intention to impact that you introduce us to in chapter one, and tell us which stage is the most difficult for companies or clients.
[01:00:14] So seven stages and three of them are about pushback and I think because that's really the most difficult thing you know and so the first three stages is are what a lot of companies do right the first stage is.
[01:00:29] You know you see that you can do something right you sign a pledge, right you set a goal you set an intention. Right and then there's energy about that yeah hey right we signed a pledge we're going to do something.
[01:00:42] So then maybe trainings happen right something happens right we follow up on this thing we talk about how we're going to make this real in the company right.
[01:00:52] You know and we start we start doing that and that leads to stage three which is taking action right on low hanging fruit you know you've now had a training, you had a strategy.
[01:01:04] Maybe there's a higher in your company and you're like oh well maybe we can make this a diverse person right or people want to start employee resource groups and you're like well maybe that's something we can do right and give people a chance to
[01:01:17] share their experiences and once you start taking action on low hanging fruit, you start getting pushback. And that stage four and at first the pushback scenes.
[01:01:32] Like, well we're just playing doubles advocates. Right, we have to see if we can get this through compliance. You know, we got to see if we have the money.
[01:01:44] You know, you know, and you start seeing this pushback and so at first, you know stage four and getting is that you respond to the pushback. But then stage five is that the pushback keeps coming.
[01:01:58] Right. And you slowly realize that the pushback is actually the culture trying to write itself. It's that ignorance fighting back.
[01:02:10] Right. And so stage five and getting to six is understanding Oh, this is the bias in our culture.
[01:02:19] It's not that there's no lady engineers is that we don't have the culture to compete and hire them.
[01:02:27] Right, we can't find them we can't compete for them. And so then we can hire them.
[01:02:32] Right. And in stage six is when you really have to sit with.
[01:02:37] Okay, this is the culture right we I talked about in the book culture each strategy for breakfast right Peter Drucker quote.
[01:02:45] This is the culture pushing back.
[01:02:49] How much are we going to center that.
[01:02:52] Or are we actually going to choose to stick with our intention, which is to evolve the company to be competitive in the 21st century. Right and stage seven is choosing to do just that and moving through the bias and moving through the pushback you know pencils down.
[01:03:09] We're now going to have to pay the phone.
[01:03:12] Yeah, so what I'm seeing in politics is playing a big role in that is that
[01:03:21] most of these companies ain't making it through four five and six right now it's it's looking really really
[01:03:26] that's what leads me to ask you and anybody else that does this kind of work that question isn't dying because it just doesn't seem like these companies
[01:03:37] have the moral will and fortitude
[01:03:41] to adjust to the pushback
[01:03:44] and that's but that's not just in the corporate world that's just everywhere in American society. That's right. And it was this guy
[01:03:53] Milton Price Webster, one of my favorite quotes he said in America if we just abandoned everything that was racist and we wouldn't do anything in America.
[01:04:04] So we've got to do stuff we got to try to break the barriers but it just seems like the collective will has never been that strong.
[01:04:13] So how do you navigate through that.
[01:04:16] You know I come from an organizing background, right, you know we talked about me working for Harry Belafonte earlier and
[01:04:27] I think coming from that organizing background first allows me to understand that we will that the end this beloved community is the aspiration.
[01:04:40] Right and even if we were to get the race thing right.
[01:04:44] We then have you know LGBTQ right we have people with disability right like that there's so
[01:04:54] much there that we see even with our own entire communities right the disconnects and disagreements that that we have.
[01:05:03] And so I think it's important for us to be realistic about what this work is.
[01:05:12] When I was a young organizer in the street I really did think we were saving the world.
[01:05:19] I have a really, really did at 46 right now understand that what we're doing is putting our block.
[01:05:30] Right we're putting our brick in this road to liberation and if I can do it in myself.
[01:05:40] I can help, you know, put the brick down.
[01:05:45] And I can feel good while doing that I can find my own humanity.
[01:05:51] And everyone else you know I mean good luck with with you and your God right like I, I think it's important for us to keep that reality in check right that at the end of the day.
[01:06:05] And I think that's why we all try to push back everything I mean when I started writing this book, I had more rights to my body than I do now.
[01:06:13] Right, right, they like, you know, women's always have to be have to be pushed now there's another option.
[01:06:20] Right and I think that that's also important for us to remember.
[01:06:24] I just don't think I think this is even less popular right.
[01:06:29] Which is we dust off Marcus Garvey's plan so right we, we decide to do something else and I don't think that's a bad idea.
[01:06:39] I just don't think it's, it's a very.
[01:06:44] I think that idea is anchored right now in society, right. It's, it's sort of like a solution, looking for people, right, versus the other way around.
[01:06:55] And but I think that that's the ultimate answer right is how do we actually decouple ourselves from the US which is a white nationalist Christian right when they would know the things right they, they were very upfront
[01:07:13] in the beginning. Yeah, so you know you mentioned Garvey and you know Booker T. Washington before him tried to do it in a way where we could be in the society but we had our own thing going right they didn't like that.
[01:07:29] And you know I did a whole podcast on that because I was like going it's like a bad relationship right.
[01:07:36] You don't like me. You don't really like looking at me but when I say I'm leaving, you won't let me leave either. And that's what they did with Garvey they basically put him in jail so we wouldn't leave because if he had been left to his own devices.
[01:07:53] We probably be having this conversation in Ghana or Jamaica or somewhere like that.
[01:08:00] No, that's right you know and, and that I think that also is the answer for some people right I mean there's several civil rights leaders and you know movement leaders who moved to right Africa who Tanzania Ghana right.
[01:08:18] Nigeria who moved to France.
[01:08:21] And then there's Baldwin Simone.
[01:08:24] You know so I do think again, there's the interconnectivity and then there's what you need to do for your journey.
[01:08:36] It is as important right for us to give ourselves our own humanity and sometimes you know I have a friend who moved to Jamaica.
[01:08:47] Several years ago in 2018.
[01:08:52] You know because she wanted to have the experience of not being a black woman.
[01:09:01] And she wanted to live in a place where that was not the first thing people thought and they saw her.
[01:09:07] Right, that was not her identity. And one of the jokes you made is she was like, you know now if someone doesn't like me. My first question isn't because is it because I'm black right like it's like oh wait, I'm just getting poor customer service.
[01:09:23] Got it.
[01:09:26] I mean the discrimination, if you want to call it that and or preference in other countries that you're an American they don't look at you as black. You're an American so you got to overcome that.
[01:09:37] Alright let's get back to the book real quick I got a couple more questions.
[01:09:41] How can choosing vendors help build diverse ecosystems.
[01:09:48] So, I think we sleep on the value of vendors.
[01:09:54] We see them as a trans actual, literally contractual right relationship. I need paper. I'm going to buy paper from Fleming paper supplies. And that's it.
[01:10:08] But if I actually get to know Fleming paper supplies. What I find out is that the owner of Mr Eric Fleming does the podcast.
[01:10:17] And I find out that there's actually a lot of people that follow him in ways that might be helpful to the networks I'm trying to get into. Right, so I can then ask Fleming paper supplies hey, we're trying to do this other ancillary
[01:10:37] thing right we're looking for furniture or like like who's in your ecosystem. Right because you probably know people right who can help me think through other ways that I'm trying to get into the WMBE community, right because the WMBE
[01:10:57] community is not just business owners right their consumers, right their employees their mothers of employees their fathers of employees right there embedded probably in who you're trying to sell your services to.
[01:11:13] And so understanding that vendors part of the business relationship is continuing to do business together. Right, so lean on that right ask them.
[01:11:26] You know, tell them about what you're looking for right what your vendor goals are and and see how they can help you know I think a community of practice.
[01:11:37] Going beyond just the chambers which are great.
[01:11:41] And asking someone who they work with can really help diversify your vendors even your employees you know things like if you're looking for accountants they might know accountants are you looking to hire accountants.
[01:11:56] I mean you know we always we know somebody right we know somebody but and it's bad it's you know using that transactional relationship to build a deeper network is is where I think the real value of vendor diversity since.
[01:12:16] So final question as a DEI consultant what do you see yourself doing 10 years from now.
[01:12:24] Well, first of all, as a 46 year olds 10 years from now I really hope I'm you know what I mean I mean in 10 years can I be like already starting to look at like places to go to the beach a lot like, you know 10 years from now I'm going to be chilling so shoot.
[01:12:46] So, I'm an organizer right like that's ultimately what I am you know I talk about that in the book right now for me DEI is the Civil Rights Movement and corporations and you know that's where I've been working.
[01:13:02] So that's where I'm doing this work but in 10 years from now I really hope we're talking about Americans, because we're talking about a global economy and we really understand this global interconnectedness.
[01:13:19] You know and understand the only way that the only way that we're maintaining any competitiveness that we will have in in 10 years is because of diversity equity and inclusion, you know so I hope I'm being able to you know look at resting
[01:13:38] on you know the golden years of 60s which are you work all your life you're like when can this stop I'm all about the nap ministry right now I'm like and we take a nap.
[01:13:49] But, you know I do hope 10 years from now we we've learned a little something.
[01:13:55] Well, probably this book selling and becoming a New York Times bestseller will help you achieve that goal so this is your time to plug your lips to God's ears.
[01:14:06] So this is your time to plug the book and how people can reach out to you and get in touch with you.
[01:14:14] Thank you so you can find me on the socials. Most of my socials are at Malia lasu, and you can get the book at Malia lasu.com or at MIT press.
[01:14:27] All right, so Malia lasu. It's been an honor and a privilege to talk to you. Thank you for coming on the podcast and I wish you much success not only with the book but in achieving the goals that you set forth and in in helping America become America again, even if it's just through the corporate circle.
[01:14:49] So I think thank you sir it's been a pleasure.
[01:14:51] All right guys and we're going to catch up on the other side.
[01:14:57] All right, and we are back so I want to thank Dr. Sobette and Miss Lawson for coming on the podcast.
[01:15:16] I hope that y'all gained something from their viewpoints. Again, like I said, even if you don't agree with it.
[01:15:26] You know, you got to hear it right.
[01:15:32] And I find it valuable for me to have people on that I may not necessarily agree with and you know but
[01:15:45] it means a lot in the American discourse and to talk about things that we're not comfortable with right.
[01:15:51] So, you know, if you know my politics you know my position about legalization of marijuana. Right.
[01:15:59] And if you know my politics you know how in line I am with this law zoo and her viewpoints.
[01:16:10] But nonetheless, whether I agree with them or whether I disagree with them.
[01:16:16] The beauty of this nation has always been that people have been allowed to express their viewpoint.
[01:16:24] And when we get into a political movement for lack of a better term or thought process that we want to shut out voices.
[01:16:38] Then we're no different than any other nation in the world.
[01:16:43] Our foundation was set up on free speech. It was one of the most unique things we we offered to the world.
[01:16:55] And I take advantage of it through this podcast. I had the privilege of taking advantage of it as an elected official.
[01:17:02] And I think every American should have that right.
[01:17:06] And I think if we follow some principles that were outlined, especially listening, then we can get to the point where we can immerse ourselves and show each other love.
[01:17:21] Right.
[01:17:22] So, you know, and it was a guy that once said that if you don't have love, then you can't be effective in government.
[01:17:33] If you if you don't love the people, then you can't do what you need to do for the people.
[01:17:41] So I'll leave y'all with that thought. And I thank you for coming on the podcast and listening.
[01:17:50] And until next time.
[01:18:11] you