In this episode, Cassie Owens, Program Manager for Free Press, explains the importance, and the process, of developing a code of ethics for journalists in Philadelphia. Then, author Claudia Rowe discusses her new book, Wards of the State, which goes into detail about our broken foster care system.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:20 --> 00:01:55 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:01:59 Hello, welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming.
00:01:59 --> 00:02:07 I am your host, Erik Fleming, and it is good to have y'all tuning in for another episode.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:14 It is always an honor and a privilege to do this work and continue to bring
00:02:14 --> 00:02:18 you guests that I hope are enlightening and encouraging.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:26 And so the two ladies that I have on this episode, they're both dealing with accountability.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:33 One is involved in a project in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to make journalism
00:02:33 --> 00:02:37 safer and more accountable.
00:02:38 --> 00:02:41 And we'll get into that in the discussion, what I mean by safer.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:51 And then the other lady has written a book that delves into an issue that I
00:02:51 --> 00:02:56 dealt with in the legislature tangentially,
00:02:57 --> 00:02:57 right?
00:02:57 --> 00:03:04 And I'm probably saying the word wrong, but not directly, but it played a major
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 role in a lot of decisions that I had to be involved with.
00:03:09 --> 00:03:15 Dealing with foster care. And I think those are two subjects,
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 media coverage and foster care, that should be on the minds of people.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:30 And hopefully by the end of this episode, it'll be firmly in your mind and get
00:03:30 --> 00:03:35 your wheels spinning about what can be done to improve both of those areas.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:41 We still are on our mission for 20. We're going to be on our mission until
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 we get there. Trying to get 20 subscribers.
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00:03:52 --> 00:03:55 The bare minimum is a dollar if you want some cool stuff.
00:03:56 --> 00:04:00 You're going to have to pay a little more. But, you know, the main thing I'm
00:04:00 --> 00:04:06 trying to do, just like everybody else out here, is making sure that we have
00:04:06 --> 00:04:09 the resources to do what needs to be done,
00:04:09 --> 00:04:12 to maintain what we are doing.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:18 And, you know, it's like all of us want support that are doing these podcasts.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:25 And I will greatly appreciate all those who come through. And if we fall short,
00:04:25 --> 00:04:28 you know, I'm just one of those people that's like, if you reach for the moon
00:04:28 --> 00:04:31 and you don't make it, at least you might get to the stars, right?
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 Or vice versa. I think if, oh, how's the phrase go? If you reach for the stars,
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 you'll land on the moon. I think that's more appropriate.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:44 But either way, whatever the bottom line is, whatever you can give,
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 whatever support you can give would be greatly appreciated.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:52 All right. So we're going to try to get this thing back to normal.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 We, you know, had a holiday, so kind of did a little things different on the
00:04:56 --> 00:04:59 holiday. But we should be back on track now.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:01 And that means that Grace G is back.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:08 Yay, Grace is back. So let's go ahead and kick this show off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:15 Music.
00:05:16 --> 00:05:21 Thanks, Erik. A U.S. trade court ruled Trump's tariffs unconstitutional,
00:05:21 --> 00:05:24 asserting Congress holds authority over trade.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:29 A federal appeals court later reinstated the tariffs until further legal arguments were presented.
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 A U.S. judge temporarily blocked Trump's policy revoking Harvard's ability to
00:05:35 --> 00:05:40 enroll foreign students, which Harvard claimed was retaliation for resisting political alignment.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 The Trump administration moved to terminate remaining federal contracts with
00:05:45 --> 00:05:49 Harvard, valued at $100 million per a directive to agencies.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:54 Elon Musk exited the Trump administration after leading federal restructuring
00:05:54 --> 00:05:57 efforts, which reduced the civilian workforce by 12 percent,
00:05:58 --> 00:06:02 or 260, through firings, buyouts, and retirements.
00:06:02 --> 00:06:06 Trump pardoned a former Virginia sheriff convicted of bribery,
00:06:06 --> 00:06:08 sparing him a 10-year prison sentence.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:13 NPR sued President Trump over an executive order cutting public broadcasting
00:06:13 --> 00:06:16 funds, alleging First Amendment violations.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 A Maryland congressman was denied access to meet with wrongfully deported Kilmar
00:06:21 --> 00:06:25 Abrego Garcia at the Salvadoran gang prison where he is being held.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:32 Missouri's Supreme Court reinstated a strict abortion ban by overturning lower court injunctions.
00:06:32 --> 00:06:37 The U.S. will revoke visas for Chinese students tied to the Chinese Communist
00:06:37 --> 00:06:42 Party or critical fields and tighten visa scrutiny for China and Hong Kong.
00:06:43 --> 00:06:47 And former Congressman Charles Rangel, the first African-American to chair the
00:06:47 --> 00:06:51 House Ways and Means Committee, died at the age of 94.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:55 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:02 Music.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:09 All right, thank you, Grace, for that Moment of News. And now it's time for my guest, Cassie Owens.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:15 Cassie Owens is a storyteller, filmmaker, and organizer from Philadelphia.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:20 In her journalism career, Owens often covered the myriad communities that exist
00:07:20 --> 00:07:22 within Black Philadelphia.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:28 In 2019, at the Inquirer, she co-produced Legendary, a short film that won the
00:07:28 --> 00:07:31 Shine Award at the Black Star Film Festival.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:36 She currently works at Free Press, where she collaborates with journalists,
00:07:36 --> 00:07:41 community members, therapists, and organizers to change harmful crime coverage,
00:07:41 --> 00:07:44 the first project of its kind in Philadelphia.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:51 Owens loves her people, cultural history, gardening, and ancestral recipes.
00:07:51 --> 00:07:56 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 on this podcast, Cassie Owens.
00:08:00 --> 00:08:10 Music.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:14 All right. Cassie Owens. How you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:08:14 --> 00:08:19 I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. How you doing? I'm doing fine. I'm a little jealous.
00:08:20 --> 00:08:26 Ladies and gentlemen, before we started the interview, we were kind of talking and Ms.
00:08:26 --> 00:08:33 Cassie said that she was out of town chasing Beyonce down going to the concert.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:39 So I'm kind of jealous. I don't even have time, let alone anything else,
00:08:39 --> 00:08:42 to go to a Beyonce concert. But did you have a good time?
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 It was amazing. I mean, it was three hours. It was a three-hour show in the pouring down rain.
00:08:48 --> 00:08:56 So I feel very sort of like in deep admiration of Beyonce and her crew's stamina through all of that.
00:08:56 --> 00:09:01 And also of, you know, the fans that were there, everybody was a trooper,
00:09:01 --> 00:09:03 but it was a, it was a beautiful experience.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:07 Okay, cool. That kind of sounds Woodstock-ish. Yeah.
00:09:10 --> 00:09:16 All right. So normally when I start these interviews, I usually do a couple
00:09:16 --> 00:09:19 of icebreakers and the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:09:19 --> 00:09:22 So let me get your response to this quote.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 Status quo generalism standards were never designed with black and brown communities
00:09:27 --> 00:09:29 in mind. What does that mean to you?
00:09:30 --> 00:09:38 So what it means to me is that historically, when these standards were professionalized.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:43 The journalism professors who came up with them didn't have Black students.
00:09:44 --> 00:09:50 The journalism publishers that, you know, made them standards in different newsrooms
00:09:50 --> 00:09:55 weren't, at the time, hiring a lot of Black journalists.
00:09:55 --> 00:10:03 It was a boys club, a white men's boys club, if you will, that really sort of
00:10:03 --> 00:10:05 decided the rules of the game.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:15 And so during that era, which happened during the 1800s into the early 20th century,
00:10:16 --> 00:10:22 that was a time where we did have Black journalists that had something to say,
00:10:22 --> 00:10:30 but who were not given equal stake in the formation of what we now hold as general
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 practice in status quo journalism.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:41 Okay. All right. So my next icebreaker, I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 11. Okay.
00:10:42 --> 00:10:47 Where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?
00:10:48 --> 00:10:52 Hmm. Where do I go to check a fact that I see, hear, or read?
00:10:52 --> 00:10:58 I think that probably my first step might be Google. But depending on the fact,
00:10:58 --> 00:11:06 from there, I'll sort of, you know, try to decide what's the best expertise area to verify it.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 Should I go to a specific like academic journal or source?
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 Should I talk to somebody in the community about it? Should I talk to somebody
00:11:13 --> 00:11:15 who experienced that thing from there?
00:11:16 --> 00:11:24 Okay. All right. So you all just released a code of ethics for community reporting
00:11:24 --> 00:11:29 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, entitled Safer Reporting for Safer Communities.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:36 What happened 18 months ago that led to this cohort coming together to create this?
00:11:37 --> 00:11:40 So the Philadelphia Safer Journalism Project,
00:11:40 --> 00:11:47 which is the project that I lead, we have been collaborating with community
00:11:47 --> 00:11:55 and journalists who are a part of the community around what should be, as one cohort member,
00:11:55 --> 00:11:59 Manny Smith might say, the new rules of engagement.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:08 It was really clear that the standards that are often taught in journalism school or in newsrooms,
00:12:09 --> 00:12:17 that those standards don't align with the exact journalism that the community wants to see.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 That there's a richness,
00:12:22 --> 00:12:31 a proximity, and sort of a care, a level of care, right, for the community that
00:12:31 --> 00:12:34 needs to be embraced in order to make that journalism possible.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:43 And so we went about creating this together collectively to reflect the lessons
00:12:43 --> 00:12:49 that people had been holding individually and together around how to produce
00:12:49 --> 00:12:51 the journalism that the community needs.
00:12:52 --> 00:12:56 Yeah. So it wasn't a particular event that you said, hey, look,
00:12:56 --> 00:12:58 we need to get together and stop this.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 It was just, you know, something organic that kind of happened.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:08 You know, people just, I'm just trying to, was it something that triggered it
00:13:08 --> 00:13:12 or specifically triggered it or it just was time for y'all to get together and
00:13:12 --> 00:13:14 make that happen? I think it was time.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 This project grew out of other projects.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 We have previously been part of a coalition called Shift the Narrative that
00:13:23 --> 00:13:30 was dedicated to changing narratives and news coverage on crime and public safety in Philadelphia.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:38 And we also had been involved in a number of media accountability efforts and
00:13:38 --> 00:13:45 conversations with mainstream journalism outlets where some of the things were
00:13:45 --> 00:13:46 heard, some of the things weren't.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 And I think that like what
00:13:49 --> 00:13:53 had happened sort of like in the sum of those experiences was
00:13:53 --> 00:14:00 a need to sort of tap into the desire that was there to sort of stop asking
00:14:00 --> 00:14:07 like gatekeepers to shift things all the time and to invest more into the community
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 wisdom that we have and to name exactly what we want to see.
00:14:12 --> 00:14:15 And so it grew organically out of that. Yeah.
00:14:15 --> 00:14:22 So you made the announcement during the anniversary of the murder of George
00:14:22 --> 00:14:24 Floyd, the fifth anniversary.
00:14:24 --> 00:14:30 Was there a correlation with timing it that way or did you it just happened that way?
00:14:35 --> 00:14:42 During the uprising following George Floyd's murder, the Philadelphia Inquirer
00:14:42 --> 00:14:49 had a headline on the story that led a section that was titled Buildings Matter Too.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 And this, honestly, it was a very traumatizing headline, obviously,
00:14:55 --> 00:15:01 but it opened up a deeper conversation about how journalism in the city needed
00:15:01 --> 00:15:08 to change and led to a lot of work that Free Press did, that I was working in
00:15:08 --> 00:15:10 the Inquirer newsroom at the time,
00:15:10 --> 00:15:12 that journalists in the newsroom did,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:16 that, of course, people in the community had been doing.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:23 To basically talk about how the shaping of these stories need to be entirely different.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:32 And so because of that, we wanted to, and also I want to lift up that one of the cohort members,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:40 Malav Kanuga, who is a co-owner of Making Worlds and the press Common Notions,
00:15:41 --> 00:15:45 Making Worlds is a bookstore and social center that's cooperatively owned.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:48 And he, like, as we were putting this together,
00:15:49 --> 00:15:55 was naming that this is something that we need to have at workshops as we are
00:15:55 --> 00:16:01 coming up on this milestone anniversary and we're revisiting what happened during the uprisings.
00:16:02 --> 00:16:08 And so we wanted this to be a resource that people could turn to in the city
00:16:08 --> 00:16:12 and outside of the city as those conversations were happening. Yeah.
00:16:12 --> 00:16:17 So let's talk specifically about the code. Is the code created through rank?
00:16:17 --> 00:16:22 And if it is, why is active listening the first article in the code?
00:16:22 --> 00:16:27 Active listening became the first because of one of the contributors,
00:16:27 --> 00:16:30 one of the co-authors, Yesenia DeMoya-Corea.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:34 At the first meeting that we had, sort of like moving through and co-writing
00:16:34 --> 00:16:40 these principles, I kind of came in with an outline that was based off of kind
00:16:40 --> 00:16:44 of like shared agreements that cohorts and other guests had really uplifted in the past.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:52 And we got to that point, act of listening, Yesenia was like, this needs to be first.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:57 And basically everybody, you know, agreed with that.
00:16:57 --> 00:17:04 It's important to start there because if you're not listening deep to the community,
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 you can't actually be in tune with,
00:17:08 --> 00:17:13 the needs of the community. You can't be in tune with the reality and the dynamics
00:17:13 --> 00:17:15 that the community is facing.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:21 And you can't report effectively to the community if you're not putting listening first.
00:17:22 --> 00:17:30 Yeah. So I listed it. I kind of, when I'm describing different tenants of the
00:17:30 --> 00:17:35 code, I use the term article because it kind of reminds me of the constitution.
00:17:35 --> 00:17:42 So that's the way that's when you hear me say Article 20 or something like that.
00:17:43 --> 00:17:45 And that's that's that's why I'm doing it that way.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 So Article 20, since I brought it up, is kind of personal for me.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:54 When I worked at the Mississippi Link, I wrote an editorial condemning the Clarence
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 Ledger, which is the daily newspaper in Jackson, Mississippi,
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 for playing into racial stereotypes.
00:18:00 --> 00:18:04 They asked us to come to their office so that they could refute my editorial.
00:18:05 --> 00:18:10 Right. So they asked our editorial staff to show up at their office to have a meeting.
00:18:10 --> 00:18:17 Then they had one black editor write a rebuttal after we showed them the basis
00:18:17 --> 00:18:19 of why I wrote my editorial.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:21 Right. That was in 1997.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:30 So what in 2025 gives you hope that black journalists in Philadelphia can move the needle?
00:18:30 --> 00:18:35 So I think that what gives me hope is that even though Black journalists aren't
00:18:35 --> 00:18:42 always getting the credit for it, I see Black journalists changing how things have been done.
00:18:43 --> 00:18:47 And, you know, there's a historical legacy to that. Something that I talk about
00:18:47 --> 00:18:53 a lot with this work is how, you know, a lot of the work that Ida B.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:59 Wells did played a crucial role in what we now understand investigative journalism to be.
00:18:59 --> 00:19:05 But when I think about people who are doing the work now,
00:19:05 --> 00:19:12 I see a lot of people who are determined to uplift the truths of the Black experience
00:19:12 --> 00:19:18 in Philadelphia in spite of this being the Trump 2.0 era,
00:19:18 --> 00:19:26 in spite of journalism as an industry being in crisis, in spite of a lot of
00:19:26 --> 00:19:29 funding sources being threatened or already having been.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 Cut off in spite of all the layoffs. I think that there's.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:40 I think that there's a deep connection that a lot of the news storytellers and
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 also, I think, in nonfiction media similarly,
00:19:43 --> 00:19:49 that people are actually continuing to do the work in spite of all the conditions.
00:19:49 --> 00:19:56 And I think that that's really what gives me hope, that people are continuing
00:19:56 --> 00:19:58 to keep going in spite of it all.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:03 Yeah. What is the stakeholder wheel? So the stakeholder wheel,
00:20:03 --> 00:20:08 and this is something that was lifted up by one of our guests,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:09 Professor Subu Vincent,
00:20:10 --> 00:20:14 who is a professor at Santa Clara University.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:22 It's a tool to actually evaluate power in sourcing and to use that as a guide
00:20:22 --> 00:20:27 to uplift people who don't hold as much power in the story.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:33 That often in status quo journalism, you see sourcing, especially sourcing on
00:20:33 --> 00:20:35 crime and public safety,
00:20:35 --> 00:20:43 that there is a stranglehold that power has over how the story gets told and
00:20:43 --> 00:20:48 who's considered a legitimate source and what are the accounts that actually come forward.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:55 Something that comes up a lot, obviously, is the over-reliance on police reporting,
00:20:55 --> 00:21:00 even to the point of being copaganda and a lot of single-sourced stories that
00:21:00 --> 00:21:04 exclusively come from police reporting.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:10 But even some of the stories that go beyond that rely on other forms of law
00:21:10 --> 00:21:12 enforcement, public officials.
00:21:13 --> 00:21:19 Folks at universities, and don't actually center the most impacted people who
00:21:19 --> 00:21:25 have a tremendous amount of things to say about the levels of safety in their
00:21:25 --> 00:21:27 communities and the experiences that they've had.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:32 So the stakeholder wheel is a tool to sort of map that out,
00:21:33 --> 00:21:39 And to pay close attention and to uplift the folks who don't hold as much power,
00:21:39 --> 00:21:41 but have a lot of valuable things to say.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:46 Yeah. You just you just introduced a new word to my lexicon,
00:21:46 --> 00:21:48 copaganda. I've never heard that before.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:52 But, you know, when I think when I think about that, you know,
00:21:53 --> 00:21:59 everywhere, everywhere I've lived, I grew up in Chicago, live in Jackson. And now I'm in Atlanta.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:08 There always seems to be one reporter that has that incredible access to the to law enforcement.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:13 And, you know, and it's just like, you know, anything that goes down,
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 the police can do no wrong.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:23 And, you know, so I definitely understand how you need to have some sort of
00:22:23 --> 00:22:33 counterbalance and accountability to deal with that narrative,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 especially in black and brown communities.
00:22:36 --> 00:22:44 So some articles of this code seems like no brainers for journalism, ensuring accuracy.
00:22:45 --> 00:22:50 Refraining from assigning morality, balancing perspectives with facts,
00:22:50 --> 00:22:55 approaching people with care, and that sources deserve respect and transparency.
00:22:56 --> 00:23:00 My question to you is, why do you think modern journalism has strayed from that?
00:23:00 --> 00:23:06 I think because modern journalism is extractive.
00:23:06 --> 00:23:10 And I think that it's extractive because this is something that we talk a lot
00:23:10 --> 00:23:15 about with this project that doesn't always get talked about in journalism circles.
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 But the way that journalism is done in the U.S.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:25 Is a colonial practice, and it is a practice that stems from a history of people
00:23:25 --> 00:23:32 who had settled on indigenous land describing how they saw their understanding
00:23:32 --> 00:23:33 of what was happening there.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:37 And that even though a lot of journalists,
00:23:37 --> 00:23:43 and I say this as a journalist, take pride in coming from a tradition where
00:23:43 --> 00:23:50 you are actually regularly challenging power depending on the stories that you're doing.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:55 And a lot of journalists, you know, don't see journalism as a prestige career.
00:23:56 --> 00:24:01 It still is a field that holds a tremendous amount of power with,
00:24:01 --> 00:24:06 like, you know, defining and shaping folks' understandings of the world and
00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 has been very exclusionary and hasn't given power.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 Still continues to be an industry rather where we don't actually see the diversity
00:24:16 --> 00:24:17 of our communities reflected.
00:24:18 --> 00:24:23 And so I think that that's, I think that that inherent power dynamic is why
00:24:23 --> 00:24:29 those things continue to be things that we have to remind people of and uplift and name.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:37 That there still is a norm in our industry of having folks come into a market
00:24:37 --> 00:24:42 and not necessarily looking at it as coming into a community that they didn't
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 grow up in, that they aren't that familiar with.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:50 I mean, interviewing people from that standpoint and not necessarily having
00:24:50 --> 00:24:57 all of the understanding of how people in the community would expect respectful
00:24:57 --> 00:24:59 storytelling and interactions to go.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:07 So, you know, in education, one of the criticisms is that, you know,
00:25:08 --> 00:25:10 you're cranking out these teachers.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:15 Especially those that identify as white.
00:25:15 --> 00:25:24 I'm trying to do better since my last podcast interview and not get too hung up on the race label.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:29 But, you know, I'll continue to do my thing.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:34 Sometimes I call white people my light-skinned cousins just so I can do better on that.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:39 But they put these young women or men out here in the Black communities out
00:25:39 --> 00:25:46 of these education programs, and they've had no experience in the Black community at all, right?
00:25:46 --> 00:25:52 And so they burn out or get out of teaching or whatever.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:57 And I'm wondering, is it really the same way in journalism?
00:25:57 --> 00:26:03 It's like you turning all these kids out and and and then they get into the
00:26:03 --> 00:26:10 field and then they don't know how to tell a story from the perspective of the
00:26:10 --> 00:26:12 community that they're they're covering.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:21 Yeah, something that and some of this language landed into some of the larger
00:26:21 --> 00:26:22 descriptions of our work. But
00:26:22 --> 00:26:26 something that I started saying when I was still in the newsroom is that,
00:26:27 --> 00:26:34 We have a problem with authority without memory, that there are regularly folks.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:40 Non-melanated folks and some melanated folks, who come into situations and are
00:26:40 --> 00:26:45 able to dictate what's happening, whether they are teachers in a classroom or
00:26:45 --> 00:26:50 whether they are a reporter or editor moving through a story,
00:26:50 --> 00:26:55 who are able to say what's what and they don't know. They haven't the foggiest.
00:26:56 --> 00:26:59 They don't have the background. They don't have the context.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:05 And I was bringing up the memory piece of this because, you know,
00:27:05 --> 00:27:11 something that would consistently come up with stories on Black folk in Philadelphia
00:27:11 --> 00:27:14 would be the lack of historical context.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:21 You know, we have generations and generations and generations of community here.
00:27:22 --> 00:27:33 And, you know, Black Philadelphians have been making history in the city before America was a country.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:38 So it's like, if you don't have that context, if you don't know that history,
00:27:39 --> 00:27:41 if you don't have those cultural competencies,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:47 I think that it has to become more understood that it's not actually possible
00:27:47 --> 00:27:52 to do the best job that way, whether you're in education or you're in journalism.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 And I think that, unfortunately, some people take offense to that,
00:27:57 --> 00:28:00 but it's not meant to be offensive to go there.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:05 Like, you know, you should understand the communities that you're serving in
00:28:05 --> 00:28:07 order to do the best job. It's kind of simple.
00:28:08 --> 00:28:13 Yeah. So you kind of answered the next question with me at Libin,
00:28:13 --> 00:28:19 one in why is it important for storytellers to come from the communities they
00:28:19 --> 00:28:23 serve and to be accountable to those communities.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:32 I guess to rephrase that question, what is an example of an accountability measure
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 for people, storytellers from the community?
00:28:38 --> 00:28:42 So something that we talked about in the meetings with the cohort and with our
00:28:42 --> 00:28:46 guests and our contributors is that, you know, often people,
00:28:47 --> 00:28:51 You know, like if someone from the community might have an issue with the story,
00:28:51 --> 00:28:55 they might be able to send an email or participate in a feedback loop,
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 but then it might not go anywhere.
00:28:57 --> 00:28:59 Maybe somebody read it. Maybe somebody didn't.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:02 Often people don't get responded to.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:11 Accountability is deeper than that. And I'm going to reference the work of Shannon
00:29:11 --> 00:29:15 Perez Darby, who is a community accountability practitioner and organizer.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:18 But you know
00:29:18 --> 00:29:21 accountability is more than saying sorry it's
00:29:21 --> 00:29:27 more than acknowledgement it connects to you know repair and it connects to
00:29:27 --> 00:29:32 change behavior and even if you need to changing the conditions that cause that
00:29:32 --> 00:29:40 harm and I think that something that I remember from just times in the newsrooms, working with editors,
00:29:41 --> 00:29:47 is there would be a certain pride and even a certain thrill to the way that
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 journalism, if you don't necessarily get something right.
00:29:50 --> 00:29:54 Allows you to get back out there, right? To try again.
00:29:54 --> 00:29:58 And I think that, and I've spoken to this in other interviews as well too,
00:29:58 --> 00:30:04 but I think that what the community is calling for is that you don't simply
00:30:04 --> 00:30:05 just get back out there, right?
00:30:06 --> 00:30:09 That repair is needed, learning is needed.
00:30:09 --> 00:30:14 As our cohort is lifted up, unlearning is needed to be able to just do the best
00:30:14 --> 00:30:20 job moving forward and to be in an accountable relationship with the people
00:30:20 --> 00:30:23 in the community who have named what was wrong.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:31 And also making space to know that you can't dictate for them how something
00:30:31 --> 00:30:36 exactly would need to be repaired or if the conditions of accountability have been met.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:42 You might try to fix something after you mess up and more still needs to be
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 done. And you should be able to listen to that with openness.
00:30:47 --> 00:30:53 Yeah. So one of the things that you all highlighted was alignment.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:59 So do you believe that the news editors at Channel 3, Channel 6,
00:30:59 --> 00:31:04 Channel 10, Channel 29, and the Philadelphia Inquirer will align with that?
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 I think they would align with some things. I think other things,
00:31:08 --> 00:31:12 depending on the editor, it might take more time or they might,
00:31:12 --> 00:31:14 you know, disagree with.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:20 These are, you know, editors who, like I've worked for The Inquirer and I've
00:31:20 --> 00:31:22 worked for some other places as well, too.
00:31:23 --> 00:31:27 And, you know, I think that I'm trying to think of how to put it,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:33 but there's a really wide range, right, of how people feel about these things.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:40 And there's also a dynamic of sometimes people feel beholden to standards that
00:31:40 --> 00:31:42 they don't necessarily agree with.
00:31:43 --> 00:31:51 I remember when the Dobbs decision happened and there was debate over how coverage
00:31:51 --> 00:31:55 of reproductive justice and abortion should happen and whether or not,
00:31:55 --> 00:32:01 you know, journalists outside of the newsroom should be able to just express
00:32:01 --> 00:32:02 their full opinions on that.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:08 There was a lot of dissensus around how people felt.
00:32:08 --> 00:32:15 And there was a number of people who were saying, but wait, I understand and I respect, you know.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:19 Journalistic integrity and the notion that I'm supposed to be unbiased,
00:32:19 --> 00:32:24 but what do you mean that I'm not supposed to have an opinion on my health care?
00:32:24 --> 00:32:30 I think that there's always, even if we're not talking about the specific topics
00:32:30 --> 00:32:32 that this cohort has taken on,
00:32:32 --> 00:32:41 there's always been tension with the notions that you have to be completely
00:32:41 --> 00:32:49 objective that you have to check certain boxes in order to maintain journalistic integrity.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:58 And so I think that essentially there might be people even who agree who still
00:32:58 --> 00:33:02 don't feel comfortable fully agreeing out loud.
00:33:02 --> 00:33:06 And I also think that that's part of the reason why we did this.
00:33:06 --> 00:33:09 We wanted to make a home for people who agree
00:33:09 --> 00:33:12 or also to lift the
00:33:12 --> 00:33:17 light up for people who agree to be able to come together because a lot of people
00:33:17 --> 00:33:25 who are in even alternative media spaces don't always feel completely free to
00:33:25 --> 00:33:30 make the decisions with their storytelling that they want to ethically.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:38 And so, yeah, we wanted to be able to build community around this particular set of standards.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:43 Yeah. And so you kind of touched on my next question because I was going to
00:33:43 --> 00:33:49 ask, why is it imperative to move past binary thinking, acknowledge biases and
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 complicate the narrative?
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 That's, you know, it's like they always try to teach you.
00:33:56 --> 00:34:01 And I tell people all the time, my show, I don't really consider myself a journalist
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 because, you know, I do interview people, but I have an opinion about stuff.
00:34:06 --> 00:34:08 I come with a certain angle.
00:34:09 --> 00:34:12 And that's, you know, I'm not trying to hide that.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:21 But for, excuse me, but for a group of people who work in journalism to kind
00:34:21 --> 00:34:24 of stress that we need to get our mindsets past that,
00:34:25 --> 00:34:30 why did y'all feel that it was important in this day and time to acknowledge that?
00:34:30 --> 00:34:37 In part because it's something that, especially in stories on crime and public
00:34:37 --> 00:34:39 safety, it happens all the time, right?
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 That we're regularly seeing stories, even if they don't use that language,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:48 where people are portrayed as good and bad.
00:34:48 --> 00:34:55 And that often when we're looking into the root causes or even if you have time
00:34:55 --> 00:35:04 to delve into the circumstances and the conditions of why harm happened or why it continues to happen.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 It's more complicated than that.
00:35:07 --> 00:35:18 And we wanted to make space for not simply attempting to not misinform,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:25 but to better inform communities around why different incidents would be happening.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:31 I do think that there is something when you're only adhering to binary thinking.
00:35:31 --> 00:35:36 I do think that there is a level of misinforming that happens through that.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:43 And also, too, and we name this in the Code of Ethics, but there's a framework
00:35:43 --> 00:35:48 for white supremacy culture and binary thinking is one of the tenets of that framework.
00:35:48 --> 00:35:56 And it's important to hold that in mind when you are producing stories or writing
00:35:56 --> 00:36:01 a story or putting things out in the world. All right.
00:36:01 --> 00:36:07 So my last question, will there be an effort to get other cities involved in adopting this code?
00:36:07 --> 00:36:13 Because I assume and I know it's bad to assume, but I assume that y'all are
00:36:13 --> 00:36:21 connected with Media 2070 and their overall project to not only uplift the black press, but to,
00:36:22 --> 00:36:29 create more of a balanced view, especially of black and brown communities in media.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:36 So, yeah, are y'all going to take this idea around the country or are you just
00:36:36 --> 00:36:38 going to focus on Philadelphia?
00:36:38 --> 00:36:44 We're going to do both. And Media 2070 partnered with the Philadelphia Safer
00:36:44 --> 00:36:51 Journalism Project and specifically Senior Director Tia Oso.
00:36:52 --> 00:36:56 Supported this and getting it out into the world, this quote of ethics.
00:36:56 --> 00:36:58 And so sending gratitude to her.
00:36:59 --> 00:37:01 We're also like, you know, in
00:37:01 --> 00:37:06 community with folks who are having this conversation around the country.
00:37:07 --> 00:37:14 And, you know, we are already in conversations about, you know.
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 Sharing some of the lessons and learnings that we've had.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:23 This is an evolving document. We hope to update it with more standards.
00:37:24 --> 00:37:27 Like as we were doing some of the final edits on it, there were,
00:37:28 --> 00:37:34 for example, like plans already being made to like update it with guidance on
00:37:34 --> 00:37:38 AI and to share more things out about narrative work.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:46 So I think that when I say that we're gonna do both, we're focused on Philadelphia And also,
00:37:47 --> 00:37:55 we are committed to speaking from where we know, but we are inherently in community
00:37:55 --> 00:37:56 and in alignment with people who
00:37:56 --> 00:38:00 are having very similar, if not the same conversations around the country.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 And so we're going to continue to build with them, too. Yeah,
00:38:03 --> 00:38:08 well, I'm glad to hear that as far as, you know,
00:38:08 --> 00:38:13 the connection, because I've had the privilege of having several people,
00:38:13 --> 00:38:16 including Tia from Media 2070 on the podcast.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:23 And I think that what you are doing is not only necessary work, but good work.
00:38:24 --> 00:38:31 Because, you know, we just, in this day and age, right, we're just dealing with
00:38:31 --> 00:38:35 a whole lot of stuff. And people are kind of tuning out.
00:38:36 --> 00:38:41 And because they just, they don't know if they can trust something that they
00:38:41 --> 00:38:43 hear or they may read or whatever.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:50 So to have a group of journalists get together and say, hey,
00:38:50 --> 00:38:53 we can do better, that's very, very commendable.
00:38:53 --> 00:38:58 So Cassie Owens, thank you for being a part of that work. I know it wasn't just
00:38:58 --> 00:39:00 you. I know it was a whole bunch of folks.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:05 But I'm glad you were able to speak on their behalf and come on the podcast and do that.
00:39:05 --> 00:39:12 If people want to get more information on this code and a project you're working
00:39:12 --> 00:39:16 on, or just they want to get in touch with you, how can they do that?
00:39:17 --> 00:39:21 So if they want more information on the Code of Ethics and on the Philadelphia
00:39:21 --> 00:39:27 Safer Journalism Project overall, they can check out saferjournalism.org.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:33 And if folks want to get in touch with me, they can feel free to reach out to
00:39:33 --> 00:39:37 me through social media or they can contact me.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 I have my own personal website, CassieOwens.com.
00:39:41 --> 00:39:48 I'm at Cassie Owens on X. I am at Cassie Opiea on Instagram.
00:39:49 --> 00:39:52 And I look forward to,
00:39:53 --> 00:39:57 continuing to be in conversation with folks about it and also just want to express
00:39:57 --> 00:40:05 gratitude to you for making space for us to just even talk about this and also
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 for the compliments that you gave to the work it was a real labor of love it
00:40:10 --> 00:40:12 took us about 18 months to get it done,
00:40:13 --> 00:40:15 and just thank you.
00:40:15 --> 00:40:21 All right. Well, again, Cassie, thank you. And anytime you want to come back
00:40:21 --> 00:40:25 on for anything, if it's related to this or something else that's burning,
00:40:25 --> 00:40:27 just feel free to come back on.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:31 You know, my door is open, especially those folks that take the initial step
00:40:31 --> 00:40:35 to come on the show. So please take advantage of that.
00:40:35 --> 00:40:39 Thank you. Appreciate you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the show.
00:40:39 --> 00:40:57 Music.
00:40:58 --> 00:41:03 All right. And we are back. And so it's time for our next guest, Claudia Rowe.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:09 Claudia Rowe has been writing about the hallways where kids and government clash for more than 30 years.
00:41:10 --> 00:41:14 A native of New York City, now living in Seattle, her reporting on racially
00:41:14 --> 00:41:20 skewed school discipline for the Seattle Times helped change education laws in Washington state.
00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 And her coverage of Latino youth gangs was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize.
00:41:26 --> 00:41:31 Roe has also written for the New York Times, Mother Jones, and Amazon Original Stories.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:38 In 2018, she received the Washington State Book Award for her crime memoir, The Spider and the Fly.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 She is a member of the editorial board at the Seattle Times,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:47 where she writes about foster care, juvenile justice, and public education.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:53 Her new book, which we will discuss, Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 American Foster Care, was just published by Abrams Press.
00:41:58 --> 00:42:02 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:42:02 --> 00:42:06 on this podcast, Claudia Rowe.
00:42:06 --> 00:42:15 Music.
00:42:17 --> 00:42:21 All right. Claudia Rowe. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:42:21 --> 00:42:26 Doing fine. Thanks for having me on. Well, I'm honored to have you because you
00:42:26 --> 00:42:33 jumped into a subject that people talk about, but not really talk about.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 You know what I'm saying? It's like people know it's out there.
00:42:37 --> 00:42:41 And, you know, there's been some efforts and I'll kind of get into a little
00:42:41 --> 00:42:46 bit of my personal journey. but but you dove right into it and you wrote this
00:42:46 --> 00:42:48 book called wards of the state,
00:42:49 --> 00:42:54 And yeah, so let's go ahead and talk about this. Normally, when I when I start
00:42:54 --> 00:42:58 off a show, I usually do a couple of icebreakers.
00:42:58 --> 00:43:00 So the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:43:01 --> 00:43:08 So your quote is, I began to wonder if foster care wasn't a crucible hidden in plain sight.
00:43:08 --> 00:43:14 I began to ask whether his failures were an unacknowledged factor driving mass homelessness,
00:43:14 --> 00:43:21 drug addiction, and property crimes, one of the gears powering America's incarceration complex,
00:43:21 --> 00:43:27 pumping out kids so ill-equipped to function as adults that locked sales became
00:43:27 --> 00:43:30 the most logical outcome. Talk to me about that quote.
00:43:31 --> 00:43:35 Okay. So in my day job, I'm a journalist.
00:43:36 --> 00:43:41 I've been covering juvenile justice and child welfare more than 30 years.
00:43:43 --> 00:43:48 In the early 2000s, a bunch of studies came out that crossed my radar about
00:43:48 --> 00:43:53 what happened to kids when they aged out of foster care, when they were young adults.
00:43:53 --> 00:43:57 And it kind of blew my mind because, like I said, I had covered child welfare.
00:43:57 --> 00:44:02 But most media, as you know, we cover, you know,
00:44:02 --> 00:44:07 foster care when some awful thing happens, when a little kid is is either left
00:44:07 --> 00:44:11 with their biological parents and they shouldn't have been and they get killed
00:44:11 --> 00:44:14 or they're killed in foster care, you know, some like crisis disaster.
00:44:14 --> 00:44:18 But we really don't devote a whole lot of attention to the other end,
00:44:18 --> 00:44:24 to the outcomes, to what happens to older youth and then their sort of path as adults.
00:44:24 --> 00:44:27 But I found these studies, not obscure,
00:44:28 --> 00:44:32 major studies called the Midwest Evaluations in the early 2000s,
00:44:32 --> 00:44:39 and they said that 59% of kids who age out of foster care will have experienced
00:44:39 --> 00:44:41 some kind of lockup, incarceration,
00:44:41 --> 00:44:43 by the time they're 26th.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:48 This blew my mind, because at the same time, we were starting to hear that,
00:44:48 --> 00:44:53 you know, at that time, like 3% of kids who age out of foster care were ever
00:44:53 --> 00:44:54 getting four-year college degrees.
00:44:55 --> 00:45:00 I think it's slightly higher now, maybe like fewer than 5% ever get college
00:45:00 --> 00:45:07 degrees, a four-year college degree, but still, 59% lockup.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:14 Then I found this MIT economist, again, not a fringe character, MIT economist,
00:45:14 --> 00:45:23 pretty sober scientific individual who found that kids in foster care are three
00:45:23 --> 00:45:30 times more likely to be incarcerated than similar children not removed to foster care.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:34 Other kids in families that are struggling but didn't get taken into foster care.
00:45:35 --> 00:45:40 So those two things just blew my mind. And they just kind of rattled around in there for a while.
00:45:40 --> 00:45:45 And then many years later, I'm sitting in court watching this teenage girl get
00:45:45 --> 00:45:48 sentenced for murder. It's 2019.
00:45:49 --> 00:45:53 And I'm watching this girl get sentenced for murder. And the proceeding,
00:45:53 --> 00:45:57 which was supposed to be just a quick two-hour thing, wasn't.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:00 And it ended up getting continued over three days. And by the end of that,
00:46:00 --> 00:46:04 I realized, oh, wow, wow, this is not just a crime story.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:07 This is a foster care story.
00:46:07 --> 00:46:11 This girl had been in foster care, had been adopted, had been kicked back from
00:46:11 --> 00:46:15 her adoptive family into foster care, which is surprisingly common.
00:46:15 --> 00:46:19 And we never talk about, how often that happens and the effects of that.
00:46:20 --> 00:46:24 That is when sort of the different areas that I had covered as a journalist,
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27 juvenile justice, child welfare, kind of came together.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:33 And I realized what people in the field, of course, realize very clearly,
00:46:33 --> 00:46:36 the incredible overlap between these two systems.
00:46:36 --> 00:46:40 You could even call it a handoff from one to the other.
00:46:40 --> 00:46:44 And that is why I jumped in and started looking at the brain science and the
00:46:44 --> 00:46:47 history and found what you described in that quote.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:54 So my second icebreaker, we'll kind of deviate a little bit from that.
00:46:54 --> 00:46:56 Just give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:46:57 --> 00:47:03 Give you any number between 1 and 20? Yes, ma'am. 17. All right. 17.
00:47:04 --> 00:47:09 What's something people who see you, who see the world differently than you
00:47:09 --> 00:47:11 that you've come to appreciate?
00:47:11 --> 00:47:14 What's something that people who
00:47:14 --> 00:47:17 see the world differently than I do is something
00:47:17 --> 00:47:22 I've come to appreciate that's a good question something
00:47:22 --> 00:47:25 I've come to appreciate is the power of family
00:47:25 --> 00:47:28 for good and for ill for destruction
00:47:28 --> 00:47:32 and for reclamation hearing
00:47:32 --> 00:47:38 healing and rehabilitation the power of and I don't necessarily mean like biological
00:47:38 --> 00:47:47 family a family relationship The power of that kind of connection to mitigate
00:47:47 --> 00:47:49 early trauma, early harm,
00:47:49 --> 00:47:52 early anything that went off course,
00:47:52 --> 00:47:58 the power of that to change a person is something I realized through this process
00:47:58 --> 00:48:00 and perhaps didn't appreciate enough before.
00:48:01 --> 00:48:05 Yeah. All right. So that was a slight deviation, but the way you answered it
00:48:05 --> 00:48:08 kind of brought it back home. That was good.
00:48:08 --> 00:48:13 So when I was in the Mississippi legislature, I served on the Juvenile Justice Committee.
00:48:13 --> 00:48:18 I served on that committee for all nine years that I was there.
00:48:18 --> 00:48:21 And that primarily dealt with youth detention.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:27 We had two youth detention centers initially. One was for boys and one was for
00:48:27 --> 00:48:34 girls. And then during my tenure was when we closed down the female one.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:38 And that was, that's a, I could write a book about that.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:43 And then I also served on the board of directors for an adoption nonprofit.
00:48:44 --> 00:48:47 So the issue of foster care has had an impact on my public service.
00:48:48 --> 00:48:53 So explain to the listeners what exactly is foster care. Okay.
00:48:55 --> 00:48:59 First of all, I want to just add for the listeners, the subtitle of the book,
00:48:59 --> 00:49:03 Wards of the State, is The Long Shadow of American Foster Care.
00:49:03 --> 00:49:08 And my argument is that it's not just something that kids are a system that,
00:49:08 --> 00:49:09 you know, to answer your question.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:16 So when the state, a state social worker determines that a child is living in
00:49:16 --> 00:49:22 an unsafe home, they can petition the courts to remove that child to foster care.
00:49:22 --> 00:49:27 Traditionally, that would mean turning that child over to a stranger,
00:49:27 --> 00:49:32 traditionally, who would then be supported by the state with state money to
00:49:32 --> 00:49:35 feed and clothe and care for that child.
00:49:35 --> 00:49:40 That is traditional foster care, taking a kid from an allegedly unsafe home
00:49:40 --> 00:49:43 situation and putting them with a stranger, generally.
00:49:43 --> 00:49:49 There have been, as you know, many efforts to adjust that and mitigate that,
00:49:49 --> 00:49:52 but that is roughly what foster care is.
00:49:52 --> 00:49:56 And the subtitle of the book is saying the effects of this system,
00:49:57 --> 00:50:02 not because of some abuser, bad villain in the system, but the structure of
00:50:02 --> 00:50:04 the system itself, the machine.
00:50:05 --> 00:50:11 Is so damaging for kids. Not, again, not because of particular abuse in the
00:50:11 --> 00:50:14 system, which obviously happens, but that's not what I'm talking about here.
00:50:14 --> 00:50:18 I'm talking about the actual structure of removing kids from their biological
00:50:18 --> 00:50:23 home, their biological family, even if the family is struggling,
00:50:23 --> 00:50:25 dysfunctional, less than ideal.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:31 The effects of being shuttled around from the home of one stranger to another
00:50:31 --> 00:50:37 in foster care are so damaging for kids that they create a shadow over that person's life,
00:50:37 --> 00:50:41 even if that person does go on to become a huge success.
00:50:41 --> 00:50:45 And there are people in the book who have become activists and lawyers and their
00:50:45 --> 00:50:48 former foster kids, but it still haunts them.
00:50:49 --> 00:50:53 It is a shape. It is shaping their memories, their lives.
00:50:53 --> 00:51:00 And I am arguing that it's a shadow overall of American culture because of the
00:51:00 --> 00:51:02 connection to homelessness and incarceration,
00:51:03 --> 00:51:09 that it's kind of this invisible force driving these highly visible social outcomes
00:51:09 --> 00:51:10 of homelessness and incarceration.
00:51:10 --> 00:51:16 But we never think about sort of foster care behind the veil back there as sort
00:51:16 --> 00:51:21 of an early engine for these enormous social problems that we're always talking about.
00:51:22 --> 00:51:28 Well, since you brought up the long shadow, give the listeners an example of
00:51:28 --> 00:51:33 the long term causal effects of foster care.
00:51:33 --> 00:51:37 You don't have to go through every one, but just one in particular that I think
00:51:37 --> 00:51:40 really, that you think, I should say,
00:51:40 --> 00:51:46 that the listeners might be able to relate to and see in young people or even
00:51:46 --> 00:51:48 adults that have been through that system.
00:51:49 --> 00:51:52 There's a little bit of brain science in the book, not a ton,
00:51:52 --> 00:51:55 but a little, and I'm going to speak to that. So.
00:51:56 --> 00:52:03 All humans, any human, when born, attaches to their caregiver as a matter of
00:52:03 --> 00:52:07 evolutionary survival, right? We can't feed ourselves. We can't speak.
00:52:07 --> 00:52:11 We can barely move when we're born. So as a matter of survival of the species,
00:52:11 --> 00:52:13 you attach to your caregiver.
00:52:14 --> 00:52:17 This is not just like, oh, you like them or they help.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:23 This is like a biological imprint in you. When you are removed from that person.
00:52:23 --> 00:52:28 There's a rift there and it affects your future ability to attach.
00:52:29 --> 00:52:32 Then you go into foster care and you're moved from home to home.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:39 And foster parents traditionally have been discouraged from forging really tight
00:52:39 --> 00:52:42 ongoing bonds with the kids in their care.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:46 Like when the child moves to another home because you have decided,
00:52:46 --> 00:52:48 you know, you're not in it for adoption, right?
00:52:48 --> 00:52:51 You're just a kind of a way station, frankly.
00:52:51 --> 00:52:55 That's the way the system treats foster parents is like a way station.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:00 And when the kid moves to another foster home, you are not supposed to be calling
00:53:00 --> 00:53:02 them up and saying, how are you doing?
00:53:02 --> 00:53:05 You're not supposed to maintain that ongoing bond with them.
00:53:05 --> 00:53:15 This sort of habitual undercutting of a human biological need to form attachments
00:53:15 --> 00:53:18 has chemical effects in kids'
00:53:18 --> 00:53:24 brains with cortisol, which is a stress hormone, and those chemical effects play out in behavior.
00:53:24 --> 00:53:29 They affect kids' ability to sleep, concentrate, manage their emotions,
00:53:29 --> 00:53:36 and that setup in childhood sort of stretches into your adult life.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:38 And I'm not saying this is true for every single kid in foster care,
00:53:39 --> 00:53:45 but broadly, this undercutting of attachment can play out in,
00:53:45 --> 00:53:48 like, the ways that all of us.
00:53:48 --> 00:53:54 Every adult, deals with sort of rough things in life, like humiliation or impatience
00:53:54 --> 00:53:59 or you're insulted on the job, you hate your boss, whatever,
00:53:59 --> 00:54:00 stuff that we all deal with, right?
00:54:00 --> 00:54:07 For a lot of foster kids, when they get out into the world, they have a really spotty education.
00:54:07 --> 00:54:17 They have no sort of ongoing bonds with any trustworthy adult in an ongoing
00:54:17 --> 00:54:18 sense that they can really rely on.
00:54:18 --> 00:54:24 So they're just out there and they have this undercut attachment system in their
00:54:24 --> 00:54:31 brains so that when a boss is rude or they hate their shift on the job, whatever,
00:54:31 --> 00:54:35 instead of kind of being able to incorporate that,
00:54:36 --> 00:54:38 buckle down and keep going is
00:54:38 --> 00:54:43 really, really hard for foster youth who are now young adults to sort of.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:48 Emotional resilience is, I think, what you could call it, like to bounce back
00:54:48 --> 00:54:52 from the sort of challenges of life that we all face really,
00:54:52 --> 00:54:57 really hard for foster kids because they don't have this original foundation of attachment.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:03 And it plays out in unemployment, underemployment, and what I've described as
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 homelessness, the incredible chart, off the charts rates of homelessness and incarceration.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:18 So basically, in reading the book, you equate that or it's been identified as a form of PTSD.
00:55:19 --> 00:55:27 Yeah, there is really credible research that says foster kids have higher rates,
00:55:27 --> 00:55:32 like almost double the rate of PTSD compared to veterans from the Iraq war.
00:55:33 --> 00:55:36 War veterans, foster kids have higher rates of PTSD.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:41 And again, the research in this book is not like some fringe stuff,
00:55:41 --> 00:55:47 like the National Academies of Science. This is a panel of lawyers and scientists
00:55:47 --> 00:55:51 brought together by the government, the National Academies of Science.
00:55:51 --> 00:55:57 They released this 400-page tome pretty recently, in the last few years.
00:55:57 --> 00:56:03 And it itself says that foster care is inherently damaging. The system itself,
00:56:03 --> 00:56:08 the experience of it itself, at its best, it is damaging.
00:56:09 --> 00:56:15 So you started off by talking about this particular case that you were following
00:56:15 --> 00:56:19 in 2019. I think the young lady's name was Marianne. Correct.
00:56:20 --> 00:56:25 Was she the main motivation for you writing a book about it?
00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 And did you feel that because you've been a journalist for a number of years
00:56:29 --> 00:56:37 that you could really, really pull that off and get to the meat of this issue
00:56:37 --> 00:56:39 and make people aware of,
00:56:39 --> 00:56:41 you know, the magnitude of it.
00:56:42 --> 00:56:46 I don't think I went into it with such high ambitions and aspirations.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:51 What happened with Marianne, like I said, I saw her in court.
00:56:52 --> 00:56:58 Even the judge who sentenced her to 19 years, even the judge said,
00:56:58 --> 00:57:04 hey, we don't want to totally blame foster care, but clearly opportunities were missed.
00:57:04 --> 00:57:07 And this was the argument Marianne's defense team was making,
00:57:07 --> 00:57:13 that foster care was at least partly to blame for the crime she had committed, this murder.
00:57:13 --> 00:57:15 I was intrigued by that argument.
00:57:15 --> 00:57:21 Like I said, it rang a bell with earlier research I knew from like 2005,
00:57:21 --> 00:57:24 6, 7, in there, this thing about
00:57:24 --> 00:57:30 59% of kids aging out of foster care will experience lockup by age 26.
00:57:30 --> 00:57:34 So that data point was in my mind.
00:57:34 --> 00:57:37 I'm watching this kid, Marianne gets sentenced, I'm hearing the judge go,
00:57:37 --> 00:57:41 yeah, you know, Washington State foster care might have something to do with
00:57:41 --> 00:57:43 it, but I'm still sentencing her.
00:57:44 --> 00:57:48 I think when I started out, what I really wanted to do was understand...
00:57:50 --> 00:57:54 The emotional or psychological reality of being that kid?
00:57:54 --> 00:57:58 What is the experience of being a kid on the street?
00:57:58 --> 00:58:02 There are a couple of things I found in the reporting that are really common
00:58:02 --> 00:58:07 experiences in foster care, and they seem tied to this incarceration outcome.
00:58:07 --> 00:58:10 And one of them is running away. Running away from a placement.
00:58:11 --> 00:58:16 Mary Ann did it chronically. It's really, really common for adolescents in foster care to run.
00:58:16 --> 00:58:19 And when they run, as you know, they're not necessarily running.
00:58:19 --> 00:58:21 They're just not where they're supposed to be.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:25 And it could be for a day or a week or a month or whatever.
00:58:25 --> 00:58:29 But when they are out there, you know, they get hungry.
00:58:29 --> 00:58:34 They don't have any money. And they are likely to shoplift or allow themselves
00:58:34 --> 00:58:37 to be trafficked, trade sex for food or shelter.
00:58:38 --> 00:58:41 These things are going to, you know, eventually the cops are going to pick them
00:58:41 --> 00:58:44 up for one of these things. And then they're going to juvenile detention.
00:58:45 --> 00:58:50 So there, they just got locked up, right? So that's one major reason why the
00:58:50 --> 00:58:54 number, 59% of kids in foster care will have experienced incarceration.
00:58:54 --> 00:58:58 That's one major driver for such a high number, right? A lot of kids getting
00:58:58 --> 00:59:02 picked up while they're still in foster care and they go to juvie.
00:59:03 --> 00:59:07 Another reason is group homes, failed adoptions, which I mentioned earlier.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:13 And aging out at 18 without support. So these sort of drivers that lead to homelessness
00:59:13 --> 00:59:18 and incarceration, I really wanted to be like, yeah, yeah, I know the data. I want to...
00:59:19 --> 00:59:24 Go through a kid's eyes. Everybody has a reason for what they do,
00:59:24 --> 00:59:28 even if we, outside, can't understand the logic.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:32 There is a logic in, there was a logic in Marianne's mind. I mean,
00:59:32 --> 00:59:34 I wouldn't call it a calm logic.
00:59:34 --> 00:59:37 She was like back against the wall feeling desperate.
00:59:37 --> 00:59:43 But I really wanted to get in her head and understand what it is to be walking
00:59:43 --> 00:59:48 around on the street when you're 15 years old, it's two o'clock in the morning. What is that like?
00:59:48 --> 00:59:52 What is it to grow up in a group home? What does it feel like when your adoptive
00:59:52 --> 00:59:56 family says, yeah, no, we're sending you back to foster care?
00:59:57 --> 00:59:59 You know, what is it to be 18 years old?
01:00:00 --> 01:00:05 Okay, good luck to you, says your foster family, and you literally walk away,
01:00:06 --> 01:00:09 hey, thanks, bye, with your stuff in a garbage bag.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:14 You know, when I was a reporter in 2005 or 6, I mean, I'm still a reporter,
01:00:14 --> 01:00:20 but at that time, we were first hearing about this thing about aging out and like, wow,
01:00:20 --> 01:00:24 all these kids at 18, the state cuts off support, sometimes 21.
01:00:25 --> 01:00:29 But the state cuts off support and kids are off into the world and they have,
01:00:29 --> 01:00:32 you know, very spotty educations because they've moved around so much.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:37 And I remember writing this thing about a kid told me, yes, he left with his
01:00:37 --> 01:00:40 stuff in a garbage bag and his foster family said, you know,
01:00:40 --> 01:00:42 goodbye. Good luck to you. My editor would not run it.
01:00:43 --> 01:00:47 She was like, that is hyperbole. There's no way they're walking around with
01:00:47 --> 01:00:48 their stuff in a garbage bag.
01:00:48 --> 01:00:51 But it is true. That is the reality.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:55 Sorry, I got off track. Your question. Oh, what was I trying to do with this
01:00:55 --> 01:00:57 project? Get in their heads.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:03 Yeah. So there's a couple of things I want to pick up out of that answer.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:09 So was that the first time you realized how broken the system was when you were
01:01:09 --> 01:01:13 trying to get in Marianne's head or had you had an idea of being a reporter
01:01:13 --> 01:01:17 covering, you know, juvenile detention and all that?
01:01:18 --> 01:01:23 When did you get your first sense that, yeah, this foster care system ain't
01:01:23 --> 01:01:25 exactly working as planned?
01:01:25 --> 01:01:30 That is not when I first realized. I realized much earlier, and I'll tell you,
01:01:31 --> 01:01:35 I realized sort of from the other end of the system, the social worker end.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:41 When social workers are making the call about whether and when to remove a kid
01:01:41 --> 01:01:48 from their parents' home. So this is, again, in the early 2000s when I'm first
01:01:48 --> 01:01:51 stumbling on all this data and research.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:57 And we were writing about, you know, again, very young children and whether
01:01:57 --> 01:02:02 a social worker made the call to remove them or not remove them from their biological
01:02:02 --> 01:02:05 parent and what happens then.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:09 So I did this, I followed some social workers around, you know,
01:02:09 --> 01:02:12 I had permission to watch them as they made their rounds and just,
01:02:12 --> 01:02:17 I'm just keep my mouth shut and I don't use real names, but I'm watching how
01:02:17 --> 01:02:18 they make a determination.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:21 So I followed them around for a couple of weeks, these two women.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:27 And then we wrote this large project about it.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:33 And we called the piece Judgment Calls because for two reasons, right?
01:02:33 --> 01:02:38 It's a judgment call of the individual social worker and they're very human
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 and humans are inconsistent and there's subjectivity here. And also,
01:02:43 --> 01:02:45 hello, we're judgment knocking on your door.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:50 We're paying a call to you. We are the state and we are judging you.
01:02:50 --> 01:02:56 When I realized, you know, I saw that pretty early and was sort of questioned
01:02:56 --> 01:03:00 that, somewhat uncomfortable with this sort of aspect of judgment.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:06 And then getting deeper, realizing how human it is. And so then how...
01:03:07 --> 01:03:12 Vulnerable to mistakes, subjectivity, inconsistency, all of it,
01:03:12 --> 01:03:15 because it's humans making the call. It's not a, you know.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:20 That is when I first realized how, I don't know what we call it,
01:03:20 --> 01:03:26 sketchy, how fallible the system could be, how fallible.
01:03:26 --> 01:03:32 And then, again, doing maybe a little bit of reporting on what happens to an
01:03:32 --> 01:03:34 18-year-old when they leave care.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:41 I was aware that it was Not great, but not until I was sitting in court did
01:03:41 --> 01:03:43 it kind of all come together and I realized, oh,
01:03:44 --> 01:03:50 wow, this is a huge machine powering other, even bigger machines.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:59 So one of the things that have caught headlines has been the states saying that
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 they've lost track of children in the foster care system.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:08 And so in reading your book, considering the number of kids that run,
01:04:08 --> 01:04:14 is that the main contributor why states lose track of kids?
01:04:15 --> 01:04:20 Because the minute they do a census or whatever, that child or a number of children
01:04:20 --> 01:04:24 may have run away from their foster home situations.
01:04:25 --> 01:04:28 Running is a major reason. Yeah.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:35 Let me just think here. Yeah. I would say running from placement is a major
01:04:35 --> 01:04:41 reason. The other half of that is one thing that most people don't realize.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:45 When a kid runs, their bed, they can't come back.
01:04:46 --> 01:04:50 Marianne, for instance, her last foster home was her favorite.
01:04:50 --> 01:04:56 She loved that woman. She cared about that foster mom, but she was a compulsive runner.
01:04:56 --> 01:05:00 She would run all the time, even though she liked that home.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:04 But that woman could no longer hold Marianne's bed for her. Marianne would want
01:05:04 --> 01:05:06 to come back, especially when she got hungry.
01:05:07 --> 01:05:10 She wanted to come back all the time, but her bed had been given away.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:13 The state can't hold it for her.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:18 So this woman, Tasha, in the book, you know, would make Marianne a meal,
01:05:18 --> 01:05:21 but she's like, honey, I got to call a social worker.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:24 They're going to pick you up. And then Marianne would take off again.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:31 So the not holding a bed for when kids do want to come back is, you know, a problem.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:37 Yeah. Then the other thing that you brought up about the judgment, right?
01:05:38 --> 01:05:43 So 53% of all black youths are
01:05:43 --> 01:05:47 subject to a child welfare investigation by the time they are 18. Right.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:52 So the majority of those social workers you were covering, I guess,
01:05:52 --> 01:05:57 they were knocking on doors and black homes or whatever.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:05 Not really? Let me think. Definitely some were black homes. We're the majority black.
01:06:06 --> 01:06:09 Washington is, I was doing this in Washington State.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:13 Washington State has a very low African-American population.
01:06:13 --> 01:06:17 So while there were some black families that were part of that circuit I was
01:06:17 --> 01:06:21 following along on, I don't know that they were the majority.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:25 But now I'm just saying that that's a national number to 53 percent.
01:06:26 --> 01:06:29 Yeah, I know. I know. I've been to Seattle a couple of times.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:31 I know it's not too many of us up there.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:42 But but, you know, do you think that there is a racial bias to this whole foster care system?
01:06:43 --> 01:06:50 Well, it's certainly true that Black children are wildly overrepresented in the foster care system.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:52 They're about 14% of the U.S.
01:06:53 --> 01:06:58 Youth population. They're almost double that represented in foster care.
01:06:58 --> 01:07:02 They're roughly a quarter of the kids in foster care are Black.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:10 So that is like wildly overrepresented as a function of their numbers in the overall population.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:17 So it is true that, you know, the way the system works, somebody makes a call
01:07:17 --> 01:07:20 to the state making an allegation of abuse or neglect.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:27 And by the way, it's neglect that is by far the main reason kids are taken into foster care.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:32 And neglect can look like a kid showing up in school, you know,
01:07:32 --> 01:07:36 with the same dirty clothes every day or no food at lunchtime.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:40 So they're stealing other kids' food, which was the case for Marianne. Yeah.
01:07:40 --> 01:07:45 Neglect is really difficult sometimes to separate from poverty.
01:07:45 --> 01:07:50 So a lot of kids are taken into foster care really because of poverty.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:56 And it is possible that, you know, it is certainly possible that a white social
01:07:56 --> 01:07:58 worker, and many of them are white,
01:07:58 --> 01:08:01 could have been looking at a black family, made it, you know,
01:08:01 --> 01:08:06 in whatever year, made a judgment that, you know, these kids have no food and
01:08:06 --> 01:08:07 there's no electricity.
01:08:07 --> 01:08:13 We got to take them when really that family needs help getting food stamps,
01:08:13 --> 01:08:16 help with their electricity bills, maybe help with stable housing, right?
01:08:16 --> 01:08:23 We could take far fewer kids into foster care if we used some of the money that
01:08:23 --> 01:08:29 we're spending on foster care stipends for strangers and put it toward family
01:08:29 --> 01:08:30 preservation services,
01:08:30 --> 01:08:35 helping families that are struggling to stabilize, eyes, right?
01:08:36 --> 01:08:43 So it is also true that, you know, so it is true that more kids who are black tend to be reported.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:48 And then once you're on the state's radar, a black kid is more likely to be
01:08:48 --> 01:08:53 taken into foster care than a white kid also on the state's radar. That is a true thing.
01:08:54 --> 01:09:02 What I found really is this is most of all about class, about poverty.
01:09:02 --> 01:09:05 There are no middle class kids in foster care. I'll tell you that.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:09 And there's certainly middle class kids growing up in single parent homes.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:13 And there are certainly middle class or affluent kids growing up in homes.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:20 Tons of substance abuse and abuse of all kinds. Only poor kids get taken into foster care.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:27 Right. Because, you know, a classic example is the Menendez brothers who I think
01:09:27 --> 01:09:28 they're getting ready to get out.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:33 A jail now, but they were affluent.
01:09:34 --> 01:09:38 Clearly abuse going on there. They were not taken away. Yeah, that's right.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:41 So what was I going to ask you? I was going to ask you something else.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:46 So hold on. I lost my train of thought just that quick.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:50 So let me go ahead and ask you this question.
01:09:50 --> 01:09:54 When you were researching the book, which stats surprised you the most?
01:09:55 --> 01:10:00 That 20% of those incarcerated nationally are products of the foster care system,
01:10:00 --> 01:10:04 40% of the children under state guardianship are adolescents,
01:10:05 --> 01:10:10 or that we spend $31.4 billion on foster care.
01:10:11 --> 01:10:17 It blew my mind, the first one and the last one.
01:10:17 --> 01:10:24 It blew my mind that how much money we spend for outcomes that are horrible
01:10:24 --> 01:10:28 and how long this has been going on.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:33 This is not some new spike or some recent trend or anything.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:35 This has been the case forever.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:41 This is foster care. This has always been this crossover with incarceration
01:10:41 --> 01:10:47 and that we just go, I mean, if we know about it at all. And I think a lot of people don't know that.
01:10:48 --> 01:10:52 But there's sort of like the system, kind of like the system knows it.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:54 Child welfare system knows it.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:59 Correctional system knows it. And there's just kind of this shrug,
01:10:59 --> 01:11:02 kind of like, oh, yeah, that blew my mind.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:08 How much money we spend for outcomes that are horrible, that are causing more
01:11:08 --> 01:11:10 misery and more expense.
01:11:10 --> 01:11:17 Secondarily, the thing about 20%, 20 to 25% of state inmates being so-called
01:11:17 --> 01:11:19 alumni of the foster care system.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:24 Yes, that blew my mind. And in the book,
01:11:24 --> 01:11:28 what, you know, one of the main characters in the book is this guy,
01:11:28 --> 01:11:34 Arthur Longworth, who got a life sentence very shortly out of being sort of
01:11:34 --> 01:11:37 spat out of foster care and onto the streets.
01:11:37 --> 01:11:42 And I was corresponding with him, talking with him while he was locked up,
01:11:42 --> 01:11:45 and he said to me, Claudia,
01:11:45 --> 01:11:50 they're the most overrepresented demographic in here, foster kids,
01:11:50 --> 01:11:55 overrepresented, because as a percentage of the population overall, foster youth are small.
01:11:55 --> 01:12:00 But in prison, they're 20 to 25 percent of the population.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:05 And everybody around Art Longworth, he was like, oh, I know them all from foster care.
01:12:06 --> 01:12:11 Everybody around him, he knew growing up in foster care or it's their kids because
01:12:11 --> 01:12:17 he's seeing generations of men come through who are in some way touched by the foster care system.
01:12:17 --> 01:12:24 And again, in talking with him, it was sort of another layer of realizing how
01:12:24 --> 01:12:26 deep this goes and how long it has been.
01:12:27 --> 01:12:33 Okay. So I kind of got my thoughts together. So one of the things that,
01:12:33 --> 01:12:38 you know, we always dealt with was the school to prison pipeline, right?
01:12:38 --> 01:12:45 And the thing that blew my mind when I was a state legislator was that we always
01:12:45 --> 01:12:50 would make these projections 10 years out about how many prison beds we needed.
01:12:50 --> 01:12:56 And that was based on how many kids were reading at a third grade level. Right.
01:12:56 --> 01:13:03 Would you say that the foster care system is a more accurate predictor of who's
01:13:03 --> 01:13:09 going to be incarcerated compared to not being able to read at a third grade level?
01:13:09 --> 01:13:15 That's an interesting question. Quite possibly. I would say the foster care system is a very,
01:13:15 --> 01:13:21 very, very strong predictor of future incarceration and probably more than who's
01:13:21 --> 01:13:25 reading, who's able to read at grade level when they are in third grade.
01:13:26 --> 01:13:32 Yeah. All right. So I try to, you know, I know you're not an elected official and all that.
01:13:32 --> 01:13:40 And but being a former one myself, I try to, you know, when I talk to people
01:13:40 --> 01:13:46 about issues, get their thoughts on how can we fix this?
01:13:46 --> 01:13:50 How can government do something? So if you were in a position,
01:13:50 --> 01:13:54 either as a lobbyist or as elected official, what steps would you take public
01:13:54 --> 01:13:59 policy wise to address these concerns? I appreciate that question.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:02 The first thing is to...
01:14:03 --> 01:14:07 Shrink the number of kids going into foster care. The first thing is to make
01:14:07 --> 01:14:14 sure that the kids in foster care really cannot be safe at home.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:20 And the second thing is to put more resources seriously and thoughtfully toward
01:14:20 --> 01:14:24 family stabilization so that more kids can be safe at home.
01:14:24 --> 01:14:29 But for those who are in foster care itself, I really think it's imperative
01:14:29 --> 01:14:35 to to reconceive the system so that it encourages bonds and attachment,
01:14:36 --> 01:14:38 just like we were talking about at the beginning of this conversation.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:42 Foster care, as you know, is really a holding system.
01:14:42 --> 01:14:49 It is not a healing system, even though all of us and anybody in the field,
01:14:49 --> 01:14:53 and there's no debate, every kid comes into that system having endured some
01:14:53 --> 01:14:55 kind of trauma, some kind.
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 Doesn't mean that they were beaten by their parents.
01:14:58 --> 01:15:04 Some were, but that's not what it means. The being brought into the system itself
01:15:04 --> 01:15:06 is a trauma. So you're there.
01:15:07 --> 01:15:11 Okay. But foster care is not aimed to be a healing system.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:18 If we shrank it, right-sized it, and then could retool it to be really focused
01:15:18 --> 01:15:22 on healing, which means encouraging that connection, encouraging bonds,
01:15:23 --> 01:15:29 ongoing bonds between a young person and a trusting, trustworthy adult,
01:15:29 --> 01:15:34 I think that could mitigate the worst harms.
01:15:36 --> 01:15:41 And there are ways that this is happening, like kinship care is sort of a leading edge now.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:45 And that is a thing where, you know, traditionally, the foster care system,
01:15:45 --> 01:15:50 if it was removing a child from a home, it deemed to be dysfunctional or like
01:15:50 --> 01:15:55 wracked with drug addiction or something, the idea was, oh, let's obliterate
01:15:55 --> 01:15:59 that whole world from the consciousness of this kid.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:05 Let's X out that past. So we're not going to give the kid to an aunt or an uncle
01:16:05 --> 01:16:09 or some relative because they're close to the original biological family.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:14 We're trying to obliterate that past, which is just not, this is not how human
01:16:14 --> 01:16:22 brains work. That early connection from birth, biologically predestined, is there.
01:16:22 --> 01:16:28 It is there. And not acknowledging that or working with that,
01:16:28 --> 01:16:34 if the system were to work with brain science more, I think it would be a much better system.
01:16:35 --> 01:16:39 Yeah, that was something that we were dealing with in the legislature.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:46 One of the ideas we were pushing was that, you know, that grandparents would
01:16:46 --> 01:16:48 play a role in taking in these children.
01:16:48 --> 01:16:54 And but we would pay them like foster parents. Yes. So that way.
01:16:55 --> 01:17:00 Finally. Yeah. And that was like I said, I was in 20, 20 some years ago.
01:17:00 --> 01:17:05 Right. And so go ahead. Sorry. Well, the thing is that, you know,
01:17:05 --> 01:17:09 grandparents have always been like to take in the kids.
01:17:09 --> 01:17:16 But, you know, up until very recently, they're draining their retirement savings to parent children.
01:17:16 --> 01:17:22 They never anticipated parenting when they're 75 years old because the state wouldn't support them.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:26 The state wouldn't give the same stipends that they give to strangers to a foster
01:17:26 --> 01:17:32 parent who is acting to us to a grandparent who is acting the way a foster parent would.
01:17:32 --> 01:17:37 Now there is increasing support for what they call kinship care.
01:17:37 --> 01:17:42 And it's that it's exactly that it's giving state support to a relative.
01:17:42 --> 01:17:47 This is a very it's shocking to me that it is so kind of leading edge and new.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:51 It seems kind of obvious, but it is a newer effort.
01:17:52 --> 01:17:56 Well, you know, they talked to some of us.
01:17:56 --> 01:17:58 We could have kind of told them that from Jump Street. I mean,
01:17:59 --> 01:18:03 the Bernie Mac show is a classic example of kinship care, right?
01:18:03 --> 01:18:08 It was like he took in his sister's kids, you know, and of course,
01:18:08 --> 01:18:10 being a comedian, it was funny about it.
01:18:10 --> 01:18:14 But that was a real life thing. And that's a thing that in our community that
01:18:14 --> 01:18:22 we've kind of done so we could avoid having our relatives in the system, right? Yeah.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:28 And just to get public policy to just pick up on that. It's always fascinating
01:18:28 --> 01:18:33 how the simple solutions take the longest when you try to incorporate government in them.
01:18:34 --> 01:18:40 The other thing I would, you know, is the power of social workers, right?
01:18:40 --> 01:18:44 I've had a number of social workers on a podcast and they always say they changed the world.
01:18:45 --> 01:18:51 And one of the things, one of the stories that I validate that statement,
01:18:51 --> 01:18:56 there was a young man, I had put him into alternative school in Jackson.
01:18:57 --> 01:19:00 And social worker you know
01:19:00 --> 01:19:02 was she told me this story because they were
01:19:02 --> 01:19:05 trying to get this test approved to use on kids
01:19:05 --> 01:19:10 statewide and i think it's the princeton test or wherever it was at the time
01:19:10 --> 01:19:17 anyway so she she decided to because he was being disruptive i mean he was talking
01:19:17 --> 01:19:21 back to the teachers cussing them out all that kind of stuff so she was trying
01:19:21 --> 01:19:25 to figure out what was going on with this kid, because he was like about maybe 11 or 12,
01:19:25 --> 01:19:30 why he challenged authority like that. So she volunteered to take him home one day.
01:19:31 --> 01:19:35 And when he got there, his mom was just coming in.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:39 I mean, when she was just coming in, like she had been out the night before,
01:19:39 --> 01:19:44 she was on drugs, and he was out there dealing.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:50 So when he got there, he's cussing the mama out for just now showing back up at the house.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:55 He had a couple of younger siblings, but he was running a household.
01:19:55 --> 01:20:01 So he was the adult and he was bringing in income because he was out there selling drugs, you know.
01:20:01 --> 01:20:05 And so he he kind of felt like when the teachers talked to him,
01:20:06 --> 01:20:11 it was like his mindset was I'm an adult just like you. You can't talk to me that way.
01:20:11 --> 01:20:16 And so, you know, he was able to get some assistance. The mom got in rehab and all that stuff.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:21 That was because that was a social worker that took the extra step.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:26 She didn't really have the finances or really the authority to do what she did,
01:20:26 --> 01:20:32 but because she took that chance, he was able to get his life right.
01:20:33 --> 01:20:37 I mean, he's not going to run for president of the United States or anything,
01:20:37 --> 01:20:41 but he's not going to jail either, right?
01:20:41 --> 01:20:44 He's going to live a normal life.
01:20:44 --> 01:20:48 So just talk about real quick to close out,
01:20:48 --> 01:20:57 how important it is to have dedicated social workers and people that work at
01:20:57 --> 01:21:03 child services in whatever title they call that department in the respective states,
01:21:03 --> 01:21:06 child welfare, we'll just say it like that,
01:21:06 --> 01:21:10 how important it is to have dedicated people in those positions.
01:21:11 --> 01:21:17 Well, as you know, it's really important, and there's incredibly high turnover.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:22 The thing with social workers is, you know, like really high turnover.
01:21:22 --> 01:21:29 So often, social worker is young, overburdened, inexperienced, very often.
01:21:29 --> 01:21:35 I mean, it is true that a seasoned, dedicated social worker can change the world,
01:21:36 --> 01:21:39 can make a lifetime difference in a young person.
01:21:39 --> 01:21:44 I think what you're talking about is something in that story is something I
01:21:44 --> 01:21:50 was, in a way, trying to do through the book is look closer, go closer.
01:21:50 --> 01:21:55 You know, that's what the social worker did with this kid who was cussing out all the teachers.
01:21:55 --> 01:22:00 Like instead of being angry, angered by the kid or even afraid of the kid or
01:22:00 --> 01:22:05 writing the kid off as a lost cause, irredeemable, already a drug dealer,
01:22:05 --> 01:22:09 you know, like all this is standard stuff. It could easily happen.
01:22:09 --> 01:22:15 That social worker you're describing didn't do that and took the extra step.
01:22:16 --> 01:22:22 It is time. It is risk, potentially legal risk. It is all kinds of risk. Right.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:28 But that social worker looked closer, got a deeper understanding of what is
01:22:28 --> 01:22:30 going on in that kid's head.
01:22:30 --> 01:22:36 Why is that kid acting that way? And that is what I was trying to do with the book. Look closer.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:44 Try to understand what is really happening here deeper than the sort of first level behavior.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:49 Well, Claudia Rowe, I'm glad that you wrote this book. I'm glad that you are
01:22:49 --> 01:22:51 challenging Americans to look deeper.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:56 There is a lot of stuff going on in this country. And, you know,
01:22:57 --> 01:23:00 it'll be altruistic to think that we can solve all of them,
01:23:00 --> 01:23:09 but it's good to be able to have people on the podcast to explain a particular
01:23:09 --> 01:23:15 situation and at least offer, if not a complete solution,
01:23:15 --> 01:23:20 at least enough insight so people can make an informed decision.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:23 And that's the best that we can ask for of anybody.
01:23:23 --> 01:23:27 So I just want to thank you for writing the book.
01:23:27 --> 01:23:32 And then as humbly as I can, I thank you for taking the time out to come on
01:23:32 --> 01:23:34 the podcast and talk about the book.
01:23:34 --> 01:23:37 So if people want to get the book, people want to reach out to you,
01:23:38 --> 01:23:40 how can they do that? The book is everywhere.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:44 So Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of American Foster Care.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:49 You can get it on Amazon or BarnesandNoble.com or your local bookstore or bookshop.org.
01:23:49 --> 01:23:53 If they want to find me, I'm on Twitter or XX on LinkedIn.
01:23:54 --> 01:24:00 You can find me on Facebook. You could go to my website, which is ClaudiaRoadJournalist.com.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:04 I'm easy to find. All right, Claudia. Well, again, thank you for coming on.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:06 I greatly appreciate it. Having me.
01:24:06 --> 01:24:08 All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:24:09 --> 01:24:19 Music.
01:24:21 --> 01:24:27 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Cassie Owens and Claudia Rowe for coming on.
01:24:27 --> 01:24:31 I greatly appreciate the work that those ladies are doing.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:39 Cassie and the cohort, she's just representing a group of people who took 18
01:24:39 --> 01:24:41 months, if you heard in the interview.
01:24:42 --> 01:24:49 They really took some time to try to develop a code of ethics for journalism.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:56 That if it works in Philadelphia, hopefully it'll work everywhere else.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:00 I think it's very, very symbolic that it's Philadelphia,
01:25:01 --> 01:25:04 home of the Declaration of Independence, home of the Constitution,
01:25:05 --> 01:25:09 where the First Amendment was written about freedom of the press,
01:25:10 --> 01:25:17 that a group of media experts, journalists, got together and say,
01:25:17 --> 01:25:23 hey, look, we have a freedom, but we need to be responsible with it.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:31 And I wish her much success in that, and I hope that it's emulated throughout
01:25:31 --> 01:25:33 the country, especially in this time.
01:25:33 --> 01:25:39 You know, we know that there will be a group of folks that think that they don't
01:25:39 --> 01:25:43 have to do that or won't honor that because they have an agenda.
01:25:44 --> 01:25:51 But, you know, I hope that people get back to that and not be afraid of who's
01:25:51 --> 01:25:55 president or whatever, right?
01:25:56 --> 01:26:02 That you just state the facts. We listen to the news to get the real story.
01:26:03 --> 01:26:06 And we don't need it skewed one way or the other.
01:26:06 --> 01:26:12 We just need the facts because we should be intelligent enough to decipher the
01:26:12 --> 01:26:18 information and and make an intelligent decision based on that. Right.
01:26:19 --> 01:26:25 So, you know, good luck, Miss Cassie and your friends and getting that done.
01:26:25 --> 01:26:31 And then for Claudia Rowe, one of the things I asked her off air was there was
01:26:31 --> 01:26:32 going to be a follow up to it or not.
01:26:32 --> 01:26:36 And she didn't necessarily commit to that, but she definitely committed to writing
01:26:36 --> 01:26:38 some, you know, some more books.
01:26:40 --> 01:26:43 But I really hope that war to the state.
01:26:45 --> 01:26:50 Has the impact that she wants, that it really, really opens up a discussion
01:26:50 --> 01:26:57 and really leads to us addressing this issue because we're talking about the welfare of children.
01:26:59 --> 01:27:05 And I know with my work in juvenile justice and my work in, you know,
01:27:05 --> 01:27:07 with Mississippi Families for Kids,
01:27:09 --> 01:27:16 you don't, the object was to try to minimize how many children have to go into foster care.
01:27:17 --> 01:27:23 And just on the general principle that you want every child to be with a family, right?
01:27:23 --> 01:27:27 You don't want to see these children become wards of the state.
01:27:28 --> 01:27:36 You don't want these children to grow up to be adults that are not productive.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:40 And when I say not productive, meaning that they're incarcerated, right? Right.
01:27:41 --> 01:27:45 Especially our black children. So,
01:27:45 --> 01:27:52 you know, it, you know, it was always a big deal when a child got adopted and
01:27:52 --> 01:27:57 and that the adopted parents stayed with it. right? Because that's what happens.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:02 A lot of foster kids, they've been adopted, but then for some reason,
01:28:03 --> 01:28:08 the adoptive parents can't handle that, or it was more than what they thought,
01:28:08 --> 01:28:13 and then those kids get thrown into the foster care system, and then a lot of them age out.
01:28:14 --> 01:28:21 You know, it's tough for a child, once they get to the age of 12 or 13,
01:28:21 --> 01:28:25 to get adopted. It doesn't matter what ethnicity they are. It's just hard.
01:28:26 --> 01:28:30 So, you know, I appreciate Ms.
01:28:30 --> 01:28:33 Claudia for doing that. And I really hope that y'all get that book,
01:28:33 --> 01:28:36 War to the State, and read it.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:42 And maybe it'll encourage some of y'all to push for some reforms in your respective states.
01:28:44 --> 01:28:49 Wherever you're listening to this podcast, right? Because again,
01:28:49 --> 01:28:51 public policy is about the public.
01:28:52 --> 01:28:54 It's about human beings.
01:28:54 --> 01:28:59 And the whole motivation of government should be to do no harm,
01:29:00 --> 01:29:06 but to, and also to advance a society, not just regulate it,
01:29:07 --> 01:29:09 but to advance it, right?
01:29:09 --> 01:29:19 So anyway, you heard me go into my, You know, I just, it's really troubling
01:29:19 --> 01:29:24 for me to sit and watch all this stuff that's going on.
01:29:25 --> 01:29:30 You've heard me say it on the podcast numbers of times. I'll say it to the guests.
01:29:30 --> 01:29:32 I'll say it to my friends, whatever.
01:29:33 --> 01:29:38 What I do is more than a service for you all. It's therapy for me.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:48 Because if I did not have this outlet, I don't know what I could do to keep
01:29:48 --> 01:29:54 my sanity, to keep my hope, to keep my focus for a better day in this nation.
01:29:55 --> 01:30:02 And I'm really, really tired of grievance driving the political discussion.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:08 And people might say, Well, you know, when you complain about police brutality,
01:30:08 --> 01:30:12 you complain about this or that, that's a grievance.
01:30:13 --> 01:30:18 Grievance is more about envy than it is about activism.
01:30:19 --> 01:30:25 Right. You know, it's more about being covetous, which the Ten Commandments
01:30:25 --> 01:30:29 that all these folks want to put up on walls, it's clearly in there that we
01:30:29 --> 01:30:34 should not be coveted stuff. That made the list. That was ending up in the 10.
01:30:36 --> 01:30:41 But it seems like that's the most important thing,
01:30:41 --> 01:30:48 whether it's a congresswoman who wants to have so much attention drawn to her
01:30:48 --> 01:30:55 to validate her existence as an elected official or,
01:30:55 --> 01:30:57 you know,
01:30:57 --> 01:31:00 wearing MAGA hats.
01:31:02 --> 01:31:06 Marching in patriot parades. I mean, you know, it's just all of that is being
01:31:06 --> 01:31:12 covetous because you think somebody, you have a mindset that somebody is taking
01:31:12 --> 01:31:13 something away from you.
01:31:13 --> 01:31:19 Me having rights does not take away you having rights, right?
01:31:19 --> 01:31:21 It just means that we're all covered.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:30 There are some of us that will take advantage of those rights more than others in a good way, you know.
01:31:31 --> 01:31:36 But it doesn't mean that you don't have the rights. It just means that somebody
01:31:36 --> 01:31:42 was gifted in a particular area to benefit from a more, you know, that's okay.
01:31:45 --> 01:31:52 But we can't get to the, we should not ever get to the point and we have in
01:31:52 --> 01:31:56 our history and we seem like we're hell bent on doing it again,
01:31:57 --> 01:32:03 that in order for me to have rights, I got to destroy or trample on yours. That's crazy.
01:32:05 --> 01:32:09 That's selfish. That's covetous. That's grievance, right?
01:32:10 --> 01:32:15 And politics should not be driven by that. Politics should be driven on statesmanship,
01:32:16 --> 01:32:22 on making sure that everybody can benefit from something, whether it's mandating
01:32:22 --> 01:32:24 that you wear a life jacket on a boat,
01:32:26 --> 01:32:31 or, you know, making sure that everyone has access to health care, right?
01:32:32 --> 01:32:37 It should be about improving the general welfare while respecting individual liberties.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:43 That's the balance that we're supposed to have. We're not supposed to be skewed
01:32:43 --> 01:32:48 one way or the other where we disregard liberty just so we can have some order, right?
01:32:49 --> 01:32:54 Or we get so caught up in our individual liberty that we don't care about the rest of society.
01:32:55 --> 01:32:59 A balance. That's why they're all in the same paragraph.
01:33:00 --> 01:33:04 That's what we call the preamble of the Constitution. It's there for a reason, right?
01:33:05 --> 01:33:09 And so it shouldn't matter how you look. It shouldn't matter who you love.
01:33:09 --> 01:33:11 It shouldn't matter what zip codes you come from.
01:33:12 --> 01:33:16 If you are in the United States of America, that Constitution,
01:33:16 --> 01:33:21 and I want to be very clear, if you are in the United States of America.
01:33:22 --> 01:33:23 Notice I'm not saying citizen.
01:33:23 --> 01:33:27 If you are president of the United States of America, you should be protected
01:33:27 --> 01:33:31 by that constitution because the constitution says you are.
01:33:31 --> 01:33:37 If you are visiting this nation, whether it's on a temporary basis,
01:33:37 --> 01:33:40 like a vacation, or an extended basis,
01:33:41 --> 01:33:47 like you're a student, or you're working here, or if your long-term goal is to become a citizen.
01:33:48 --> 01:33:50 Right? You're supposed to be protected.
01:33:51 --> 01:33:55 So if something goes down, you're accused of something, you're supposed to have
01:33:55 --> 01:33:59 the same process as those of us who were born here.
01:33:59 --> 01:34:02 End of discussion. It's written in the document.
01:34:02 --> 01:34:08 There's no ambiguity to it. I don't care how Fox News, AON, Newsmax,
01:34:08 --> 01:34:13 any of them try to spin it. I don't care what the president says.
01:34:13 --> 01:34:16 I don't care what Christine Noem says. I don't care what Marco Rubio says.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:18 The document is the document.
01:34:19 --> 01:34:25 And since you do not have a consensus to amend the Constitution or write a new
01:34:25 --> 01:34:29 one, right, then that's the governing document.
01:34:29 --> 01:34:32 And it's very clear what it says.
01:34:33 --> 01:34:37 And I would go so far as to say that if you are a lawyer and you don't understand
01:34:37 --> 01:34:40 that, maybe you don't need to be practicing law in this country.
01:34:41 --> 01:34:45 Maybe you need to go to a country where you have a dictator and they allow you to practice law.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:52 Know. Not too many of those options out there, but I suggest you go explore that.
01:34:53 --> 01:34:57 Because in this country, if you don't understand the Constitution and what it
01:34:57 --> 01:35:01 actually says, I don't think you should be practicing law in this country.
01:35:02 --> 01:35:07 Whether that's by disbarment or you voluntarily retire, I don't know.
01:35:07 --> 01:35:09 But you shouldn't be practicing law.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:16 You should not be making public policy. right now that's subjective to the voters
01:35:16 --> 01:35:21 you might can fool some people and you know,
01:35:22 --> 01:35:25 get elected to a position or whatever based on
01:35:25 --> 01:35:31 a lie but i really believe that if you don't have a grasp of the constitution
01:35:31 --> 01:35:37 the city ordinance where you live the u.s constitution state whatever if you
01:35:37 --> 01:35:41 don't understand that you don't need to be involved in public policy because
01:35:41 --> 01:35:44 everything that you do is based on those documents.
01:35:45 --> 01:35:53 Everything. Now, if you can get two-thirds of Congress to go with an idea and
01:35:53 --> 01:35:56 get an amendment to the Constitution, knock yourself out.
01:35:57 --> 01:35:59 But until then, the law is the law.
01:36:00 --> 01:36:04 And if you can't interpret the law that way, you sure as hell should not be
01:36:04 --> 01:36:09 a judge, let alone a lawyer, right? It's pretty clear.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:16 Now, there is some gray area, and there's a reason why, because some people
01:36:16 --> 01:36:18 don't quite understand language.
01:36:18 --> 01:36:21 So that's why you go to court, to settle things.
01:36:22 --> 01:36:26 But it's got to be in the context of the Constitution.
01:36:27 --> 01:36:34 You know, if you get in a congressional hearing and a congressperson asks you, what is habeas corpus?
01:36:35 --> 01:36:41 And you say something bizarre like, oh, it gives the president the right to do what he wants to.
01:36:41 --> 01:36:45 You don't need to be in that position. How did you even get there?
01:36:45 --> 01:36:49 How did you serve in Congress? How did you become a governor of a state,
01:36:49 --> 01:36:52 let alone a cabinet official? And you didn't understand that concept. Right.
01:36:53 --> 01:36:57 I mean, there's just some things that you have to finesse.
01:36:58 --> 01:37:04 If you are that scared of the person you work for, that you give a BS answer
01:37:04 --> 01:37:09 to a congressperson, you don't need that job. You don't need that stress.
01:37:10 --> 01:37:13 Right. You're not man or woman enough to be in that position,
01:37:13 --> 01:37:17 because just because you're in the president's cabinet don't mean you don't
01:37:17 --> 01:37:18 have the ability to say no.
01:37:18 --> 01:37:21 You don't have the ability to say, Mr. President, it's a bad idea.
01:37:22 --> 01:37:29 I mean, Abraham Lincoln famously picked people that were rivals of his because
01:37:29 --> 01:37:34 he knew that they were going to be objective in the decisions that he made and
01:37:34 --> 01:37:35 they were going to, you know,
01:37:35 --> 01:37:39 and they were going to respond accordingly to that. And he could weigh that in.
01:37:41 --> 01:37:45 I just, I don't, I don't understand. Right.
01:37:45 --> 01:37:50 But that's, that's about courage and character and all that stuff.
01:37:50 --> 01:37:53 And it's pretty clear that most of the people that are in positions now that
01:37:53 --> 01:38:00 we have to cover and respect don't have those two C's, character and courage. They don't have that.
01:38:01 --> 01:38:08 So we got to deal with that and navigate around that until we, the electorate, fix it.
01:38:08 --> 01:38:12 If we're given an opportunity to fix it. Right.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:21 But the other thing I wanted to touch on that is another C and that's flat out corruption. Right.
01:38:22 --> 01:38:29 So there was one story that bothered me. You know, the Elon Musk thing.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:35 It is what it is. He's gone back to Tesla. He's trying to save his good name
01:38:35 --> 01:38:36 and the company's good name.
01:38:37 --> 01:38:43 I don't know if he can effectively do that, but, you know, as long as he's not
01:38:43 --> 01:38:49 dabbling in government stuff, maybe he can build some credibility back for that,
01:38:49 --> 01:38:50 that particular product.
01:38:51 --> 01:38:57 And, you know, he won't have that margin call where he'll lose X.
01:38:58 --> 01:39:01 Although some people are like, let him lose it all. Right.
01:39:02 --> 01:39:11 I just wanted, I'm just glad he's out of trying to govern with no election mandate for him to do it.
01:39:13 --> 01:39:20 And I want him to be a lesson so that people understand that government is not a business.
01:39:21 --> 01:39:25 It is government. It's a whole different concept.
01:39:25 --> 01:39:31 We're not about making a product. We're about taking care of the citizens of
01:39:31 --> 01:39:34 this country, providing a service for them,
01:39:34 --> 01:39:41 representing their best interest, and representing the nation's interest as a whole to the world.
01:39:41 --> 01:39:45 That's different than making a car and trying to sell it.
01:39:46 --> 01:39:51 That's different than creating a social media platform and trying to make a profit.
01:39:52 --> 01:39:58 It's different. So I hope that people understand and draw that as the lesson
01:39:58 --> 01:40:04 that you can't do what you do in private business in the government.
01:40:04 --> 01:40:11 We've had people talk their trash, and they've dibbled and dabbled in trying to change it that way.
01:40:11 --> 01:40:16 But this should be the clear indication that you can't run government like a business.
01:40:16 --> 01:40:19 But that's not the main thing I want to talk about. I want to talk about,
01:40:19 --> 01:40:21 and I'm not going to get into his name.
01:40:22 --> 01:40:27 Y'all can Google the guy's name and all that stuff. But it kind of hit home
01:40:27 --> 01:40:31 because this guy was in law enforcement. He was a sheriff.
01:40:32 --> 01:40:38 And when he was running for re-election, he was offering reserve officer positions
01:40:38 --> 01:40:44 to people that gave $75 or whatever, right, to his campaign.
01:40:44 --> 01:40:50 You can't do that, right? You know, you're just going to give people a badge
01:40:50 --> 01:40:53 because they gave you some money to run for office. You can't do that.
01:40:54 --> 01:40:59 There's certain criteria, even for a reserve officer, that you have to have.
01:40:59 --> 01:41:00 That varies from state to state.
01:41:01 --> 01:41:04 And you can make people honorary folks, right?
01:41:04 --> 01:41:08 You can give them a little nice little plaque and whatever, but,
01:41:08 --> 01:41:11 you know, to make them...
01:41:13 --> 01:41:17 Reserve officer where they actually got a badge and, you know,
01:41:17 --> 01:41:19 trying to get out of tickets and all that kind of stuff.
01:41:21 --> 01:41:25 No, you got to earn that. You got to match the criteria, dude.
01:41:25 --> 01:41:28 You can't just write a check and get that, right?
01:41:29 --> 01:41:33 But that kind of ties in with Elon Musk because he wrote a check and Donald
01:41:33 --> 01:41:37 Trump gave him the ability to try to destroy our government, right?
01:41:38 --> 01:41:46 But yeah, So, you know, this guy went through the process, unlike Mr.
01:41:47 --> 01:41:51 Garcia and other folks that we've been talking about in the news.
01:41:52 --> 01:41:58 He actually went through the process. He actually had a trial of his peers and
01:41:58 --> 01:42:01 he was found guilty. He did that.
01:42:03 --> 01:42:06 And the day before he was
01:42:06 --> 01:42:09 supposed to set foot in the jail because of
01:42:09 --> 01:42:12 course you know you can appeal sentencing and
01:42:12 --> 01:42:18 all that stuff so that delays your time going in which which makes it funny
01:42:18 --> 01:42:22 you know harold ludnick i think that's the guy's name is the commerce secretary
01:42:22 --> 01:42:28 said well people complain about missing their social security check after the
01:42:28 --> 01:42:30 first month and they're probably fraudsters.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:37 Well, if you appeal a sentencing after you've been convicted of a crime,
01:42:37 --> 01:42:42 using your logic, then you're probably a criminal, right?
01:42:42 --> 01:42:45 Like your boss, nonetheless.
01:42:45 --> 01:42:52 So this guy was about ready to set foot in the jail, and just before he was
01:42:52 --> 01:42:55 supposed to report to the jail, the president gives him a pardon.
01:42:55 --> 01:42:58 What does that mean? Hmm.
01:42:58 --> 01:43:02 What message are you trying to convey, right?
01:43:03 --> 01:43:09 And how are you strategically using these pardons? What agenda are you trying to send?
01:43:09 --> 01:43:12 That it's okay to be corrupt?
01:43:13 --> 01:43:18 That it's okay to get over on people? It's all right to take a bribe?
01:43:18 --> 01:43:24 It's all right to abuse the privilege of being an enforcer of the law,
01:43:24 --> 01:43:28 thus for being somebody that's supposed to protect and serve a community?
01:43:28 --> 01:43:32 It's all right to abuse that privilege. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what
01:43:32 --> 01:43:36 message are you trying to send by doing that?
01:43:36 --> 01:43:39 Who are you trying to appease?
01:43:39 --> 01:43:42 What army are you trying to build up?
01:43:42 --> 01:43:48 Right? Because I have a good friend who is an older gentleman.
01:43:49 --> 01:43:58 And, you know, he's very, very wise. And he's always trying to temper my enthusiasm a little bit.
01:43:59 --> 01:44:03 And he basically, you know, he just admonished me all the time.
01:44:03 --> 01:44:08 He said, Eric, I just want you to pay attention to January 6th.
01:44:09 --> 01:44:14 And, you know, I told him, I said, well, you know, if it gets to a certain point,
01:44:15 --> 01:44:19 history dictates that if it gets to the point like it did in the Civil War,
01:44:19 --> 01:44:24 it may take five years, it may take 10, but, you know, we'll defeat these people
01:44:24 --> 01:44:30 If it gets to that point, he says, but it's at that point, you know,
01:44:31 --> 01:44:35 these people, that was the trial run January 6th.
01:44:35 --> 01:44:39 He said, there are people, they are waiting, all they're waiting for is the command.
01:44:41 --> 01:44:48 What they need to do, whether it's martial law, whether it's whatever action
01:44:48 --> 01:44:49 the president, they ready.
01:44:49 --> 01:44:54 They were ready at that debate when he said, stand back and stand by, right?
01:44:54 --> 01:44:58 So just look at all the people that he's pardoning. Look at all the people that
01:44:58 --> 01:45:01 he's getting out of jail.
01:45:01 --> 01:45:04 Now, the Larry Hoover thing, that's a whole different deal, right?
01:45:04 --> 01:45:10 But that's the example of why it would be futile to pardon Derek Chauvin.
01:45:10 --> 01:45:15 Because Larry Hoover, who some of y'all should know, if not,
01:45:16 --> 01:45:19 he was the leader of the Gangster Disciples in Chicago.
01:45:19 --> 01:45:24 And he got hit with federal and state charges over time.
01:45:25 --> 01:45:28 He was in jail for state charges. He was in for life.
01:45:28 --> 01:45:33 Then he got hit with federal charges. They literally created a law so they could
01:45:33 --> 01:45:36 sentence him to more time in the federal level.
01:45:38 --> 01:45:43 And now he'll, with the pardon, I guess he's not in, he doesn't have to be in
01:45:43 --> 01:45:46 Supermax in Colorado anymore.
01:45:46 --> 01:45:50 They can ship him back to Illinois to finish out his sins.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:54 But he's not going to be pardoned from the convictions in Illinois.
01:45:54 --> 01:45:57 He'll just, he can get to leave Supermax in Colorado.
01:45:58 --> 01:46:02 That's all that pardon will do. Same with Derek Chauvin. If you pardon Derek
01:46:02 --> 01:46:05 Chauvin, well, it just means he doesn't have to do the federal time,
01:46:06 --> 01:46:11 but he still got to do the state time in Minnesota, right, for killing George Floyd.
01:46:11 --> 01:46:18 So, yeah, those people, that's not part of the army thing. That's appeasement politics.
01:46:19 --> 01:46:24 If I pardon Derek Chauvin, I got to pardon Larry Hoover so the black folks won't be mad, right?
01:46:25 --> 01:46:31 And whatever trouble it may get me in, I was not one of those black people that
01:46:31 --> 01:46:33 felt Larry Hoover should be pardoned.
01:46:35 --> 01:46:37 That on the record. I was not one of those people advocating that.
01:46:38 --> 01:46:43 Whatever defense you want to bring, fine. Same with Jeff Fort, all that. That's cool.
01:46:44 --> 01:46:50 Yeah, I grew up in Chicago. So Larry Hoover and Jeff Fort were not heroes of mine.
01:46:53 --> 01:46:59 I had to navigate around their folks so I could go to high school.
01:47:00 --> 01:47:06 Had to fight gangsta disciples. I had to fight El Rukens just so I could get home from school.
01:47:06 --> 01:47:10 So I don't have a soft spot for Jeff Ford or Larry Hoover.
01:47:10 --> 01:47:15 That's me. You can take that up in the comments, whatever. That's fine.
01:47:18 --> 01:47:24 But, you know, that in his mind, speaking about the president,
01:47:24 --> 01:47:29 that was his appeasement to black folk because, you know, that he said,
01:47:29 --> 01:47:31 well, I pardoned Larry Hoover.
01:47:31 --> 01:47:35 So yeah, I can pardon Derek Chauvin. Same thing, whatever.
01:47:36 --> 01:47:46 But now this whole, to me, and just listening to the wisdom of my friend,
01:47:46 --> 01:47:51 seems to me he's trying to make sure that the people that need to fight whenever
01:47:51 --> 01:47:54 the fight is going to happen,
01:47:55 --> 01:48:00 whether he's trying to stay in the third term or whether he wants to make sure
01:48:00 --> 01:48:05 that anybody that's black or brown is out of the country or subjugated or whatever,
01:48:05 --> 01:48:09 whatever the end game is to maintain white supremacy, whatever.
01:48:10 --> 01:48:14 I think he's trying to make sure that the army is there. I mean,
01:48:15 --> 01:48:18 you know, and the people that can finance it, right?
01:48:19 --> 01:48:24 What else is there other than money? Like the dude with the cryptocurrency that
01:48:24 --> 01:48:27 had dinner with him at wherever that golf club.
01:48:27 --> 01:48:30 I think he's got a golf club in Roanoke, Virginia or something.
01:48:32 --> 01:48:36 You know, that's all about the money game there, about, you know,
01:48:36 --> 01:48:40 trying to milk the office for as much money as he can. But you know,
01:48:40 --> 01:48:44 if he's a billionaire, he's back to being a billionaire officially again.
01:48:45 --> 01:48:54 Okay. So he's going to finance whatever uprising he wants to have. Conflict.
01:48:55 --> 01:48:59 This may sound like conspiracy theory or conjecture or whatever.
01:49:00 --> 01:49:05 I just want y'all to pay attention because there is a motive behind what he's doing.
01:49:06 --> 01:49:10 It doesn't make, you know, it's one thing to give a pardon to somebody,
01:49:10 --> 01:49:19 you know, who the case was mishandled or the sentencing was too extreme.
01:49:20 --> 01:49:21 You know what I'm saying?
01:49:22 --> 01:49:28 Something like that. you know, or they serve their time and they've become productive citizens.
01:49:29 --> 01:49:35 You know, you take that off their record so they can be more productive citizens, right?
01:49:35 --> 01:49:39 That's really what a pardon is supposed to be about. It's supposed to be about forgiveness.
01:49:40 --> 01:49:43 And it's supposed to be earned forgiveness, right?
01:49:43 --> 01:49:49 You know, because even with Tukey Williams, We weren't saying pardon him.
01:49:49 --> 01:49:52 We were just saying don't execute him, right?
01:49:53 --> 01:49:56 Just commute the sentence from death penalty to life.
01:49:57 --> 01:50:04 We understand he needs to be in jail. We just want him to spend his life there
01:50:04 --> 01:50:09 because he was doing some good things while he was in that structure.
01:50:10 --> 01:50:13 Nobody was saying let him out. Well, there might have been a few,
01:50:13 --> 01:50:16 but I wasn't one of those. I was just like, don't execute him.
01:50:17 --> 01:50:20 You know, but that's the power of that.
01:50:21 --> 01:50:26 Not to forgive a guy who's been trained in law enforcement.
01:50:27 --> 01:50:33 So he knows how to use a gun and reward him for bribing people so he could be
01:50:33 --> 01:50:36 the sheriff of a particular county.
01:50:37 --> 01:50:39 That's that's not what that is for.
01:50:41 --> 01:50:45 And at least let him sit in the jail for a week before you part.
01:50:45 --> 01:50:49 Don't don't, you know, he's about ready to walk in. It's like,
01:50:49 --> 01:50:50 oh, no, you've been pardoned. You can turn around.
01:50:51 --> 01:50:53 That's not how that's supposed to work.
01:50:55 --> 01:50:58 Want to ship people out for the middle of the night to try to avoid a court
01:50:58 --> 01:51:02 from telling you you can't do that and violating their civil rights.
01:51:03 --> 01:51:12 But you want to stop this man who bribed his way into office from serving a
01:51:12 --> 01:51:16 day in an American jail, a federal jail,
01:51:17 --> 01:51:25 But you're sending residents or visitors of our nation to foreign jails, right? I don't get it.
01:51:26 --> 01:51:31 You know, if you just go by the news stories, you're not going to get the logic.
01:51:31 --> 01:51:36 So you've got to figure out on your own, why is it so important for him to let these people out?
01:51:37 --> 01:51:42 Who is he trying to appease? Who is he trying to rile up? Who is he trying to
01:51:42 --> 01:51:45 motivate? Who is he trying to appeal to?
01:51:46 --> 01:51:49 And what does he want to do with that, right?
01:51:50 --> 01:51:58 Because I've learned that evil people have no limits until it's imposed upon them.
01:51:59 --> 01:52:03 Those of us of the Christian faith are taught that we are supposed to have dominion
01:52:03 --> 01:52:08 over the devil because the devil is of earth, just like animals.
01:52:08 --> 01:52:12 Animals, you know, everybody wants to be benign and say, oh,
01:52:12 --> 01:52:17 it's about, you know, we have dominion over the lions and the tigers and the
01:52:17 --> 01:52:19 bears and the trees and the grass.
01:52:19 --> 01:52:24 No, the biblical message was Lucifer fell from heaven.
01:52:24 --> 01:52:30 He called himself Satan. He said he's rule of the earth and God created a mini
01:52:30 --> 01:52:34 version of himself to have dominion over him.
01:52:35 --> 01:52:40 It. Reread it if you need to. It's in Genesis. Just reread it, right?
01:52:41 --> 01:52:48 But this is not a religious show. It's a political show. And so I don't put
01:52:48 --> 01:52:54 anything past this administration because if you have somebody that's manipulative,
01:52:55 --> 01:52:59 even if he's in a lesser state, and if you don't think he's in the lesser state,
01:53:00 --> 01:53:06 watch some of the film from 2015 and then watch his latest press conference now.
01:53:07 --> 01:53:11 Ten years is amazing what it can do to you, especially if you've been president
01:53:11 --> 01:53:13 of the United States already once.
01:53:14 --> 01:53:20 Just make the comparison and then you come up with your own judgment, right?
01:53:20 --> 01:53:25 Everybody's critical about Biden and his decline over four years.
01:53:25 --> 01:53:27 Look at what's happened to Donald Trump in 10?
01:53:28 --> 01:53:33 Just saying, just look at it, right? But I still don't put anything past him,
01:53:34 --> 01:53:40 especially if you don't have people surrounding him that will say, that's a bad idea.
01:53:41 --> 01:53:43 Whatever you say, Mr. President, I'm down with that. No, no,
01:53:44 --> 01:53:45 we don't need those kind of people.
01:53:45 --> 01:53:50 And we definitely don't need to empower the people around him that's giving
01:53:50 --> 01:53:53 him the bad ideas to do, Right.
01:53:53 --> 01:54:00 So I don't know. I am a Democratic activist.
01:54:00 --> 01:54:02 There's no secret about that.
01:54:03 --> 01:54:11 So, you know, I support my team. But I'm going to say something to you all so
01:54:11 --> 01:54:12 you understand where I'm coming from.
01:54:12 --> 01:54:19 And really the gist of what I'm trying to do here is that I want you to demand
01:54:19 --> 01:54:22 of the Democratic Party your trust again.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:30 I want you to demand that the Democratic Party be a true alternative to what
01:54:30 --> 01:54:36 we're seeing, not a light version of it or a tolerable version of it.
01:54:36 --> 01:54:40 I wanted the Democratic Party to be the complete opposite. If these people are
01:54:40 --> 01:54:43 evil, then we need to be good. Thank you.
01:54:44 --> 01:54:48 You know, I'm tired of the lesser of two evils argument.
01:54:49 --> 01:54:54 I don't want a choice between two evils anymore. I want people to have a choice
01:54:54 --> 01:54:56 between good versus evil.
01:54:57 --> 01:54:59 Not perfect, but good.
01:55:00 --> 01:55:03 Meaning they understand statesmanship.
01:55:04 --> 01:55:09 They understand about developing a society that will last through generations.
01:55:09 --> 01:55:13 That's about peace and fairness and equality and justice.
01:55:14 --> 01:55:19 It's not going to be perfect, but it's got to be done the right way.
01:55:20 --> 01:55:26 And right now it is not. And there is no attempt for it to be done the right way.
01:55:27 --> 01:55:30 And we just have to consider that the next election.
01:55:30 --> 01:55:34 You know, all this, well, you know, we got to appease all that.
01:55:34 --> 01:55:36 No, we need to educate people.
01:55:36 --> 01:55:39 If they are fooled and think that what they got now is good,
01:55:39 --> 01:55:42 then we need to show them what good really is.
01:55:43 --> 01:55:48 Right. That's our mission. We got to show them what good really means,
01:55:48 --> 01:55:51 what being an American leader really means.
01:55:52 --> 01:55:56 This, what we have, is horrible by any stretch of the imagination.
01:55:56 --> 01:55:58 There's no way to sugarcoat it or anything.
01:55:59 --> 01:56:04 If we're pardoning people who bribe folks to get elected, those are not good
01:56:04 --> 01:56:06 people. Those are horrible people.
01:56:07 --> 01:56:13 And in the imperfection of the political process, there will be some horrible
01:56:13 --> 01:56:16 people that will still get elected, but they can't be the majority.
01:56:16 --> 01:56:23 It should be one of them fell through the cracks, but not a whole political
01:56:23 --> 01:56:25 party full of them, right?
01:56:27 --> 01:56:33 All I know is that we have to do better, and we need to support people who are
01:56:33 --> 01:56:34 trying to make it better.
01:56:34 --> 01:56:38 Even if they're not running for office, if they're doing the work like a Cassie
01:56:38 --> 01:56:46 Owens or Claudia Rowe or any of the guests that I've had, just support people doing good.
01:56:46 --> 01:56:49 Just watch people doing the work.
01:56:51 --> 01:56:54 Embrace what they're doing. Participate in what they're doing.
01:56:55 --> 01:57:00 And then take that knowledge that you see and apply it to the people that come
01:57:00 --> 01:57:02 and knock on your door saying, I need your vote.
01:57:02 --> 01:57:06 We have to demand that our elected officials,
01:57:07 --> 01:57:10 respond to us and fight for us,
01:57:10 --> 01:57:17 all of us, that they accept us and they allow us to live our best lives,
01:57:18 --> 01:57:24 and don't try to constrict us other than harming each other.
01:57:24 --> 01:57:29 That's the main, you know, just don't let people kill each other.
01:57:29 --> 01:57:32 Don't let people steal from each other, all that kind of stuff.
01:57:33 --> 01:57:34 That's the restriction.
01:57:35 --> 01:57:41 Not about what car we're going to drive, what neighborhood we want to live in, who we want to date.
01:57:41 --> 01:57:44 None of that. Don't restrict it. When we want to have a baby.
01:57:44 --> 01:57:45 Don't restrict any of that.
01:57:46 --> 01:57:51 Or who wants to even serve. The only thing that you restrict anybody from serving
01:57:51 --> 01:57:57 is you discerning that these people don't have the right heart for it.
01:57:58 --> 01:58:05 But that's why we've got to be demanding of that. We've got to be demanding and not entertainment.
01:58:07 --> 01:58:10 We don't need to be entertained at Capitol Hill.
01:58:10 --> 01:58:13 We don't need to be entertained at the White House. We don't need to be entertained
01:58:13 --> 01:58:15 at our state capitals or our city halls.
01:58:16 --> 01:58:19 Those people need to be about work, working for us.
01:58:20 --> 01:58:26 You know, we have TVs. We have our phones with the streaming service.
01:58:26 --> 01:58:31 We can go to a movie theater. We can go to a sports arena if we want to be entertained,
01:58:31 --> 01:58:34 but not in the halls of government.
01:58:34 --> 01:58:38 We can't endorse corruption and evil anymore.
01:58:39 --> 01:58:45 We don't have that luxury anymore. People are dying. People are hurting. People are struggling.
01:58:45 --> 01:58:49 We need to elect people that are going to fix that.
01:58:49 --> 01:58:52 Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.
01:58:54 --> 01:59:40 Music.
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