Host Erik Fleming speaks with three leaders — Mikel Bolden, executive director of the Mississippi Democratic Party; Renee Williams, CEO of the National Center for Victims of Crime; and Joan Garry, founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab. They discuss voter engagement and special elections in Mississippi, supporting crime survivors and ethical true-crime storytelling, and nonprofit leadership during challenging political and funding climates.
The episode blends pragmatic optimism with practical strategies for organizing, trauma-informed victim support, and nonprofit resilience, encouraging listeners to get involved and resist threats to democratic norms and civil society.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:20 --> 00:01:55 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:06 And today, three guests on,
00:02:06 --> 00:02:13 so yes, this is another jam-packed show, but these three young ladies that are
00:02:13 --> 00:02:20 coming on are optimists, but they're pragmatic optimists, right?
00:02:21 --> 00:02:27 And, you know, So that can apply to anybody that does the work that is needed
00:02:27 --> 00:02:29 in this day and age and this time in America.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:40 But I felt that was an appropriate title for this program because one is an
00:02:40 --> 00:02:42 executive director for a political party.
00:02:42 --> 00:02:52 One is an executive director for a nonprofit that helps survivors of crimes.
00:02:52 --> 00:03:01 And then one is Veteran Warrior, who now is in the mission of helping all nonprofits get better,
00:03:01 --> 00:03:11 but was one of the most outspoken leaders in activism at one point for a decade, actually.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:15 And so it's just an honor to have all three of them come on.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:23 And all of them, you know, talk about hope and talk about what can be done and
00:03:23 --> 00:03:25 why they're excited to do the work.
00:03:25 --> 00:03:29 But they're also very realistic about the times that we're in.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:36 And so pragmatic optimism, optimism seemed like an appropriate title for them.
00:03:37 --> 00:03:40 It's not necessarily sexy, but it is what it is.
00:03:41 --> 00:03:48 And I think that's kind of where we are because we can all be hopeful,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:55 but I think we have to be realistic in knowing that where we are now,
00:03:55 --> 00:03:59 there are some people that are ready to lead and that are leading.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:03 And then there's some people that we need to move out the way.
00:04:05 --> 00:04:09 So my guests are people that we need to elevate and highlight.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:14 And so I'm glad that they came on, and hopefully you'll enjoy the interviews.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 I'm still encouraging people to subscribe. Go to patreon.com slash a moment
00:04:19 --> 00:04:27 with Erik Fleming, or you can go to momenterik.com and do the same thing.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:31 And also, you know, just kind of catch up, learn about the show,
00:04:31 --> 00:04:35 learn about me, catch up on what's going on with the podcast.
00:04:36 --> 00:04:43 I have some sad news for my ego. The nominees came out for the Black Podcasting Awards.
00:04:44 --> 00:04:48 Yours truly was not one of the nominees this year. But nevertheless,
00:04:48 --> 00:04:50 we're going to keep doing what we're doing.
00:04:51 --> 00:04:57 And I am going to continue to encourage people to support the Black Podcasting
00:04:57 --> 00:05:00 Awards because the nominees are pretty cool.
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 One of the nominees was a nominee with me last year.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:08 And so hopefully the second time is the
00:05:08 --> 00:05:12 charm for that show But in
00:05:12 --> 00:05:15 all seriousness Go to the Black
00:05:15 --> 00:05:20 Podcasters Awards website Check out the different shows that have been nominated
00:05:20 --> 00:05:27 And then listen to them And support them any way you can There are so many genres
00:05:27 --> 00:05:34 that are out there now It's hard to believe five years ago So it was, you know,
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 it was just a thought.
00:05:37 --> 00:05:44 And so, you know, we'll keep plugging along and hopefully we'll be distinguished
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 as an award winner one day.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 But right now, I'm just honored that I have good listeners like you.
00:05:51 --> 00:05:56 And we're going to continue to do the work and continue to be a voice out here,
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 especially in this day and age. Right.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 So anyway, enough about me and enough about all this other stuff.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:08 Let's go ahead and kick this show off. And as always, we kick it off with A Moment
00:06:08 --> 00:06:10 of News with Grace G.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:16 Music.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:23 Thanks, Erik. A shooter killed two people and wounded one at a Dallas Immigration
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 and Customs Enforcement office before taking his own life.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:31 The threat of a government shutdown increased after the Senate rejected a short-term
00:06:31 --> 00:06:33 spending bill passed by the House.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:39 Disney brought back Jimmy Kimmel Live! to the air six days after suspending
00:06:39 --> 00:06:43 the show due to comments its host made about the assassination of Charlie Kirk.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:48 Family and friends of the late conservative activist Charlie Kirk praised his
00:06:48 --> 00:06:50 life and legacy at a memorial service.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:56 Former NFL player Colin Kaepernick has pledged to fund a second independent
00:06:56 --> 00:07:02 autopsy for Demartravion Reed, a Delta State University student whose death was ruled a suicide.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:07 Ryan Ruth was found guilty of the attempted assassination of President Trump
00:07:07 --> 00:07:10 after pointing a rifle at him while he was golfing.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:13 A federal judge dismissed President
00:07:13 --> 00:07:18 Trump's $15 billion defamation lawsuit against The New York Times.
00:07:18 --> 00:07:23 A top prosecutor investigating New York Attorney General Letitia James resigned
00:07:23 --> 00:07:26 after President Trump publicly called for his removal.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 The U.S. Senate confirmed Donald Trump's former national security advisor,
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 Michael Waltz, as the U.S.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:37 Ambassador for the U.N. The Trump administration announced
00:07:37 --> 00:07:42 a new proposal that would require companies to pay $100 per year for H-1B
00:07:42 --> 00:07:47 visas President Trump announced that the Republican Party plans to hold a convention
00:07:47 --> 00:07:56 for the 2026 midterm elections The city of Boston has paid a $150 settlement to two black men,
00:07:56 --> 00:08:02 Alan Swanson and Willie Bennett, who were wrongly accused of the 1989 murder of a pregnant woman.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:05 Egyptian-British activist Alaa
00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 Abdel Fattah was released a day after being pardoned by Egypt's president.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:16 And Priscilla Williams-Till, a cousin of Emmett Till, is running for the U.S. Senate in Mississippi.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:20 I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:26 Music.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:38 And now it's time for my guest, Mikel Bolden, hailing from Columbia,
00:08:38 --> 00:08:45 Mississippi, which is in Marion County, Mississippi, home of Walter Payton. But I digress.
00:08:45 --> 00:08:49 Mikel Bolden, daughter of the Lois Taylor and Michael Taylor,
00:08:49 --> 00:08:54 was raised by her mother and her bonus father, Donald Mitchell.
00:08:55 --> 00:09:00 Mikhail is the proud graduate of Tougaloo College, where she earned a bachelor's
00:09:00 --> 00:09:01 degree in political science.
00:09:01 --> 00:09:07 She also holds a master's in criminology and justice services from Jackson State University.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:12 Mikhail is the mother of two children, Penelope Bolden and Timothy Bolden Jr.,
00:09:12 --> 00:09:14 and the youngest of six siblings.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:19 She is a proud member of the Jackson, Mississippi Alumni Chapter of Delta Sigma
00:09:19 --> 00:09:25 Theta Sorority Incorporated and the Order of Eastern Star Armentine Chapter No. 7.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:30 A two-time self-published author, Mikel has written, live freely,
00:09:30 --> 00:09:36 laugh often, love always, but live truthfully and the roots of her.
00:09:36 --> 00:09:41 She is also the founder of the Humble Change, Inc., an organization dedicated
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 to empowering Mississippi's youth with the resources, mentorship,
00:09:45 --> 00:09:49 and opportunities they need to thrive as students and future entrepreneurs.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:55 Throughout her career, Mikel has been a relentless advocate for civic engagement,
00:09:55 --> 00:09:57 voting rights, and voter protection.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:02 She has worked to establish initiatives that safeguard fair and accessible elections
00:10:02 --> 00:10:08 across Mississippi. Her passion for service extends beyond advocacy.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:13 She is known for her commitment to helping anyone she can, strengthening families,
00:10:13 --> 00:10:16 and building a more connected, empowered community.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 In her role as Executive Director of the Mississippi Democratic Party,
00:10:20 --> 00:10:26 Mikel is committed to moving Mississippi forward by prioritizing equity,
00:10:26 --> 00:10:28 education, and civic participation.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:32 Her leadership is rooted in her belief that investing in people,
00:10:33 --> 00:10:37 especially children and marginalized communities, creates a stronger,
00:10:37 --> 00:10:38 more vibrant Mississippi.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:43 Her personal motto is life is a series of beginnings, not endings.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:48 She firmly believes that every challenge is an opportunity to fight harder,
00:10:48 --> 00:10:50 dream bigger and keep moving forward.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:56 When she is not working, Mikel enjoys writing, reading, and strategizing while
00:10:56 --> 00:11:02 listening to music, always looking for the next way to inspire and uplift those around her.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:07 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:11:07 --> 00:11:10 on this podcast, Mikel Bolden.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:20 Music.
00:11:21 --> 00:11:25 All right, Mikel Bolden. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:11:25 --> 00:11:27 I'm doing good. How about you?
00:11:27 --> 00:11:30 I'm doing fine. It's always good to talk to somebody from Mississippi.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:37 Absolutely. Yeah. I got a lot of good memories in Mississippi.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:45 And even more so because you are the executive director of the Democratic Party in Mississippi.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:51 Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of time at the old address,
00:11:51 --> 00:11:54 I guess, because y'all not on Congress Street anymore.
00:11:54 --> 00:11:56 No, not on Congress Street anymore.
00:11:57 --> 00:12:02 We were on fortification, but right now we're about to relocate to somewhere downtown.
00:12:02 --> 00:12:07 We're in the midst of two different locations right now, I said. Okay.
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 Yeah. Yeah. I spent a lot of times at the house over there on Congress.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:19 All right. So let's go ahead and get this started. How I normally do this is
00:12:19 --> 00:12:24 that I throw out a quote as far as for an initial icebreaker.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:32 So your quote is, in order for us to make a move and turn Mississippi blue,
00:12:32 --> 00:12:38 it's going to take everybody and we cannot leave any corner of Mississippi untouched.
00:12:39 --> 00:12:42 Talk to me about that. Yeah, so essentially,
00:12:43 --> 00:12:48 one thing about Mississippi, you have people who are misinformed,
00:12:48 --> 00:12:54 who may not even have the general information when it comes down to elections.
00:12:54 --> 00:12:55 Like right now, we have special elections.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:00 You have young leaders who are untouched when it comes to politics.
00:13:00 --> 00:13:06 You have community members who have lost trust when it comes to elected officials
00:13:06 --> 00:13:09 and just the overall process when it comes to voting.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:15 So making sure that you are meeting people where they are and having those real
00:13:15 --> 00:13:18 life conversations and not like over talking them saying, hey,
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 well, you need to get out of voting, you know, not giving them context of what they're voting on.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 Like most people don't know who controls what
00:13:26 --> 00:13:29 so right now Just had a
00:13:29 --> 00:13:32 talk with two different classes yesterday And I
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 spoke to them about the special election and how hey if you care about your
00:13:36 --> 00:13:40 health care benefits if you care about jobs and you care about you know xyz
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 you have a chance to Divorce your opinion when it comes to this election because
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 it's a senate and house races that are happening And they are in control of
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 these things. So really breaking down the.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:56 That information of who controls what, breaking down information of what office
00:13:56 --> 00:13:58 actually is in control of,
00:13:59 --> 00:14:01 you know, if it's something that's happening in their school,
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 or if it's something, you know, that's happening around the community,
00:14:04 --> 00:14:06 telling them where to go to get these resources.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:13 So making sure that people understand how to navigate their issues and say,
00:14:13 --> 00:14:15 well, you know, I reached out to someone and they didn't contact,
00:14:16 --> 00:14:19 well, you didn't reach out to the correct person, let me steer you in the right direction.
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 So that's really what I mean when, you know, not leaving any corner untouched.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:28 We know we do have disenfranchised crimes that happen and where people have
00:14:28 --> 00:14:32 lost their rights to vote, but there are also some crimes that,
00:14:32 --> 00:14:37 you know, well, I'll say charges that people have that they believe that they're
00:14:37 --> 00:14:39 unable to register to vote when that's not the case.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:45 They're just misinformed on how that process works and what it should look like.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:49 So, you know, just really making sure everyone is knowledgeable about things
00:14:49 --> 00:14:52 and, you know, asking those questions, having the real life conversation with
00:14:52 --> 00:14:54 community and college students. So.
00:14:55 --> 00:15:00 Yeah. You brought up the disenfranchisement. One of my highlights is that I
00:15:00 --> 00:15:05 was able to get three human beings their right to vote back when I was in the legislature.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:11 And I know Zakiya Summers, you know, and excuse me, and I'm not just saying that because,
00:15:12 --> 00:15:15 she's a former co-worker of mine but i know
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 that's been an issue for her and i
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 and i really hope that mississippi eventually gets to
00:15:21 --> 00:15:27 a point where we don't have to do that to for individuals yeah you know that
00:15:27 --> 00:15:31 you know and and and we could we could get into a whole whole show about the
00:15:31 --> 00:15:36 whole process of that and people have yeah i'm saying just that alone yeah yeah
00:15:36 --> 00:15:39 then the other thing before I get to the other icebreaker.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:45 I know there's the Senate special election. That's to replace John Horn, who.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 Got elected mayor of Jackson. Where's the house election?
00:15:50 --> 00:15:54 So it's a new district from the redistricting case.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:58 You have House District 22, and that area, it covers Chickasaw,
00:15:58 --> 00:16:00 Monroe, and Clay County.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 And then you have some more special elections that's happening in DeSoto County.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:10 So for John Horne's seat, along with Senator Jordan, which is in District 24,
00:16:11 --> 00:16:14 and then you also have House District 26, Orlando Payton's seat.
00:16:14 --> 00:16:16 You know, those were due to vacancies.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:20 So people are like, well, what are these special elections? What do they mean?
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 Well, you have three that are due to vacancies, but you have another slew,
00:16:24 --> 00:16:29 there's like 14 races that are due to redistricting cases where they have expanded
00:16:29 --> 00:16:34 some of these districts and where they also have like included new districts.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 So during that time, you know, you're letting people know like,
00:16:37 --> 00:16:38 hey, please get out and vote.
00:16:38 --> 00:16:43 It is very important because these new districts are drawn to expand the Black
00:16:43 --> 00:16:46 votership within each county.
00:16:46 --> 00:16:51 So to make sure that we are aware, we're making sure people are knowledgeable
00:16:51 --> 00:16:53 of like, hey, well, you're in this county.
00:16:54 --> 00:16:57 Some people are in the same county voting in two separate districts,
00:16:57 --> 00:17:00 like Senate District 2, Senate District 11, Senate District 19.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:04 They're all in the Soto County area, but they're all in different parts.
00:17:04 --> 00:17:08 You have Senate District 45. That's a new district that's enforced in Lamar County.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:13 So just making sure people are knowledgeable of what's going on right now.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:18 I've been talking about this since, you know, they actually just made the decision
00:17:18 --> 00:17:22 on these races like late May, around May, May-ish.
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 And from that time on, it's like, hey guys, you know, these special elections
00:17:26 --> 00:17:33 going on, Make sure you're aware we have qualifying time, which was in going into June.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:37 So, you know, just making sure people are aware of what's going on right now,
00:17:37 --> 00:17:40 because it does affect, you know, their community.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:46 All right. All right. So now the second icebreaker is called 20 questions.
00:17:46 --> 00:17:49 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:17:50 --> 00:17:58 13. All right. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 Unbiased news and media.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 I'm going to say no. I'm going to go on the limb and say no,
00:18:06 --> 00:18:11 primarily because, you know, news reporters, they, they do.
00:18:12 --> 00:18:15 And it's nothing, you know, not to slight anyone that does their job,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:20 but when it comes down to the unbiased portion of it, sometimes people are reading
00:18:20 --> 00:18:26 this information, they're confused about what's going on. It's not really an unbiased opinion.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:33 It's more so a strong leading opinion that leads into giving you more information a little bit later on.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:38 So it's never really unbiased. It's more so, well, hey, this is what we would
00:18:38 --> 00:18:41 like to cover, but we also want to throw in this information to make sure you
00:18:41 --> 00:18:44 know about it without giving more context.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:50 So I don't think news is really unbiased when it comes down to it because people
00:18:50 --> 00:18:54 still leave kind of confused on, you know, what's really going on.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 You know, if you leave people in question, it's not an unbiased opinion because,
00:18:59 --> 00:19:02 you know, if you have unbiased opinion, it's very clear cut in,
00:19:03 --> 00:19:05 you know, of what it is. Yeah.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:10 All right. So, Ms. Bolden, why did you get into politics?
00:19:11 --> 00:19:15 Okay. Well, I've always kind of been into politics.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 I've been kind of behind the scenes, started out my career doing paralegal work,
00:19:19 --> 00:19:25 and I started having these conversations with my own family where they were
00:19:25 --> 00:19:29 kind of like untapped into what was really going on.
00:19:29 --> 00:19:34 And because like, you know, maybe I'm just a person that likes research or,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 you know, things like that, that is my major for one.
00:19:37 --> 00:19:43 So after I started having those conversations back in 2023, before the gubernatorial
00:19:43 --> 00:19:47 race, I started working with the Mississippi Democratic Party.
00:19:47 --> 00:19:53 And so from there, you start learning that you would believe that people are
00:19:53 --> 00:19:58 aware of situations and policies, as well as how to properly advocate,
00:19:59 --> 00:20:00 just general information.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 But I came to learn very quickly that that wasn't true.
00:20:04 --> 00:20:07 While being at the Mississippi Democratic Party, I started doing field organizing
00:20:07 --> 00:20:12 works where I was going around doing regional meetings, just making people aware
00:20:12 --> 00:20:13 of who the candidates were.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:19 From there, I left the party and built the election protection program for Mississippi
00:20:19 --> 00:20:22 Votes, which is a nonpartisan organization here.
00:20:22 --> 00:20:28 And while doing that work, I started realizing how sometimes you step away from
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 something and you know it's something you're supposed to be doing.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:36 But you're ignoring it. And that's really kind of like the light bulb that has kind of kept me here.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:41 So while doing the election protection program before DNC happened last year,
00:20:42 --> 00:20:46 2024, I was asked to come in and be the executive director as the old executive
00:20:46 --> 00:20:47 director was stepping out.
00:20:47 --> 00:20:52 And I took some time to think about it, but it's like, no matter how many times
00:20:52 --> 00:20:58 I tried to like steer myself away from it, because politics can be very strained with sometimes.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:03 And it's a lot, especially in Mississippi, where it's so much voter suppression,
00:21:03 --> 00:21:08 where democracy is not fair, fairness and equality seems to not exist sometimes.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:17 But I knew that I have the ability to speak to people and have them to understand
00:21:17 --> 00:21:20 certain things, guide them in the correct direction.
00:21:20 --> 00:21:25 So that's really what kept me here, along with, like, I just love strategizing
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 for one, and I like numbers, and I like defeating the odds.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:33 And I feel like at some point in time, don't know when, but I'm speaking on
00:21:33 --> 00:21:36 it, it will happen for Mississippi to, you know,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:40 change the narrative of what voting actually looks like, as well as people's
00:21:40 --> 00:21:44 knowledge of the voting process and having more integrity in the system. Okay.
00:21:45 --> 00:21:52 So earlier this year, Congressman Thompson said the political climate is the worst that he has seen.
00:21:52 --> 00:21:54 Do you agree with that sentiment?
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 Yeah, I do. One thing about it, like I understand, you know,
00:21:59 --> 00:22:02 people have their take on Republican Democrats,
00:22:02 --> 00:22:11 but at the same token, when you see your respected elected officials being in
00:22:11 --> 00:22:15 session, like when it comes to legislative, they're in session and they're being
00:22:15 --> 00:22:16 disrespected by their counterparts.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:21 It's like, well, you know, it kind of brings a little fright to the situation.
00:22:21 --> 00:22:22 Like, do we have control?
00:22:23 --> 00:22:28 You know, where is the justice when it comes down to if you're speaking to someone
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 who's working and doing the same exact work for you, maybe on a,
00:22:31 --> 00:22:34 you know, across the aisle, but you're not giving them any respect.
00:22:34 --> 00:22:38 You know, we also saw, you know, in Texas where they locked the representative
00:22:38 --> 00:22:40 in, you know, in the chambers.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:44 And then just speaking on, you know, Representative Summers was disrespected
00:22:44 --> 00:22:46 by the Speaker of the House, you know, recently.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:50 There's just things like that. I've never seen that before.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:54 Don't get me wrong, even being in the background of things and then stepping
00:22:54 --> 00:22:58 up and now being a part of, kind of a part of a bigger cause now.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:04 It's like, in what way? I've never seen really any of this before.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:09 And yes, we know it was bad, but it's like it's getting worse day by day.
00:23:09 --> 00:23:13 And it's like people are having so much confidence in doing the wrong things.
00:23:14 --> 00:23:18 And it kind of brings like a little scare when it comes to community because
00:23:18 --> 00:23:20 people are asking like what does this mean for us?
00:23:20 --> 00:23:24 If they're doing this to those who are respected elected officials,
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 what would they do to us? And we're just community members, right?
00:23:28 --> 00:23:32 That's I really do feel that wholeheartedly. And it's like we have to change
00:23:32 --> 00:23:36 and we have to give people more confidence and more safety net when it comes
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 down to politics in general.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:45 So you stated when you first started at the party that the party needed to unify
00:23:45 --> 00:23:52 his message and build a grassroots infrastructure from people ages 18 to 35. How has that been going?
00:23:53 --> 00:23:59 So it's a work in progress when I say work in progress Right now just speaking
00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 to the young men and women.
00:24:02 --> 00:24:06 They're asking Well, what why is it important for me to vote?
00:24:06 --> 00:24:10 It's not going to matter, you know, you know The whole my vote doesn't matter
00:24:10 --> 00:24:14 and then I break it down to them like hey, well, what's important to you right now?
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 What policy and they'll look at you strange like
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 what is policy policy is something that's around us day-to-day When
00:24:20 --> 00:24:26 it comes to taxes when it comes to you getting funding for school When it comes
00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 to the clothes that you wear sometimes the taxes on that right tariffs when
00:24:30 --> 00:24:34 it comes to You know job minimum wage like I break it all the way down in an
00:24:34 --> 00:24:37 air like oh Well, that is important to me my health care.
00:24:37 --> 00:24:43 It is important to me and I say well if that's important to you Here is how you can control it.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:46 You may You're one vote.
00:24:46 --> 00:24:51 Yes, but you have a group of peers where you all will sit and talk about celebrities
00:24:51 --> 00:24:55 But you won't talk about what's going on right here in front of you and you
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 have to like you explain it I had a student yesterday.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:03 They knew exactly what was going on in the world and say hey I had a conversation
00:25:03 --> 00:25:05 with one of my buddies and they don't know what's going on I said,
00:25:05 --> 00:25:07 but you understand it. Why didn't you explain it to them?
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 Well, I don't know how I said well It starts with the conversation I said,
00:25:11 --> 00:25:15 sometimes you have to start with something that people understand and break
00:25:15 --> 00:25:18 it down into general terms for them.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:24 So right now it's going. I think it's more so the problem with 18 to 35 right
00:25:24 --> 00:25:27 now is the intergenerational gap where people.
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 Like, between that age gap, people are very passionate about things.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:34 And then, you know, when you go a little bit above, they're like,
00:25:35 --> 00:25:39 well, I've been where you are, and you're going to have to work and show me
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 that you're meant to be here.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:45 But it's like, at the same time, there are policies that are affecting them directly.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 Yes, there are policies that are affecting the older generation,
00:25:48 --> 00:25:50 but at the same time you have,
00:25:50 --> 00:25:55 you know Policies that are directly affecting them in this day and time and
00:25:55 --> 00:25:59 when they get to where you are So it's really just trying to make sure they're
00:25:59 --> 00:26:04 invited to the table to have a conversation Whenever I strategize I normally
00:26:04 --> 00:26:08 like I have a nephew that's at college I'll call him and be like hey,
00:26:08 --> 00:26:09 like what do you think about this?
00:26:09 --> 00:26:13 Like i'm really trying to get a gist of where they are in their mind thinking
00:26:13 --> 00:26:18 and then trying to make sure that everything that is done, they're somewhere
00:26:18 --> 00:26:23 along the line, they're included in that conversation, included in that strategy.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:28 And that has really been helping us. So more so talking with them versus talking
00:26:28 --> 00:26:32 to them and at them, it has helped a little bit more is what I've learned.
00:26:34 --> 00:26:37 What is the biggest challenge being the day-to-day
00:26:37 --> 00:26:41 leader of the mississippi democratic party the day-to-day
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 challenge would be having people
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 trust the process we all know politics
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 has changed drastically over time what that
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 looks like when it comes down to whether or not you're doing field whether or
00:26:53 --> 00:26:57 not you're talking about what's going on that's changed but having people trust
00:26:57 --> 00:27:02 the process of what that looks like now not a lot of uh older democrats are
00:27:02 --> 00:27:09 trusting the digital process of politics and i understand it is something new And outside of that.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:15 It's also just making sure that whatever light is shined onto Democrats,
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 it is a good, you know, good light.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:23 I know everything is not going to be good. It's not going to be all rainbows and sunshine every day.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 But try to control the narrative is like, well, hey, you guys aren't doing this.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 And it's like, well, actually, we are.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:34 Here is what's happening. So being able to be a part of those conversations
00:27:34 --> 00:27:38 and break down realistically what's happening versus people saying,
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 well, I feel like this is happening. This is what I read.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:44 It's kind of controlling the narrative and making sure you're correcting those
00:27:44 --> 00:27:49 things in real time versus, oh, I should have said this and,
00:27:49 --> 00:27:50 you know, stuff like that.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:54 So I've had to be a part of conversations that, you know, sometimes we want
00:27:54 --> 00:27:57 to take off the hat and I don't want to talk about this right now.
00:27:57 --> 00:28:03 But sometimes you have to because not only does it save a person from,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:08 you know, feeling security within voting, but it also gives them knowledge to
00:28:08 --> 00:28:09 pass along to the next person.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:18 Yeah. All right. So have you or Chairman Taylor talked with the DNC Chair Martin about 2026?
00:28:18 --> 00:28:22 And how are the 2026 races shaping up?
00:28:22 --> 00:28:27 Yeah, we've had conversations with DNC about it.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 I know Chairman Taylor has talked to Chairman Martin about 2026.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 Anytime we have conversations with DNC, I'm more so talking,
00:28:37 --> 00:28:40 I talk to them about 2026 and 2027 as of right now.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:45 But so far those elections like we're of course, you know, they haven't qualified
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 yet We've had people to announce we have some speculations of a couple more
00:28:49 --> 00:28:54 people may be announcing But so far we feel like it's going to be a good race Of course,
00:28:54 --> 00:28:57 you know, we have multiple democrats that are running so we don't get into it
00:28:57 --> 00:29:02 when it comes down to primaries But we are in full support making sure that,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:07 you know All of our candidates have the necessary resources that they need One
00:29:07 --> 00:29:10 thing that we started this year between the campaign committee as well as the
00:29:10 --> 00:29:13 party staff itself is candidate training,
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 making sure that candidates have access to partners.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:22 Resources, make sure they get endorsements, making sure they have the support
00:29:22 --> 00:29:24 when it comes down to the overall party,
00:29:24 --> 00:29:29 the county parties, and just any other partners that we have and dignitaries
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 we have in Mississippi to make sure that they're getting all the,
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 I guess you could say, confidence in them running their campaign.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:39 So that that has been pretty much
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 the conversation when it comes down to of course specials for
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 this year but 2026 and then looking forward
00:29:44 --> 00:29:51 into 2027 for those state races yeah you know and i i know it's a challenge
00:29:51 --> 00:30:00 you know i just remember my interactions with the dnc back in the day there
00:30:00 --> 00:30:02 and you know it was a big deal.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:07 When Howard Dean physically came to
00:30:07 --> 00:30:11 Mississippi he was that type of chair and I don't think we really had a chair
00:30:11 --> 00:30:17 nationally that's committed to Mississippi like he was hopefully the new chairman
00:30:17 --> 00:30:22 will be that way but I know it's I believe he will yeah and I know that's just
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 Mississippi gets ignored bottom line and I think you know,
00:30:26 --> 00:30:28 it's something that,
00:30:29 --> 00:30:34 You know, I just, I'm just one of those people who's like, if we've got 50 states,
00:30:34 --> 00:30:38 then we need to compete in all 50 states, especially in Mississippi.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:43 Every time, absolutely. Yeah. So I was just curious.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:48 And then I've been watching, I kind of always have a vested interest in the Senate race.
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 And I see that Emmett Till's cousin has jumped in.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 I know Will Colom's son is running.
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 But it kind of concerned me about Pickens because
00:30:59 --> 00:31:03 he was the nominee in 24 and now
00:31:03 --> 00:31:06 he's going to run as an independent it's kind of are
00:31:06 --> 00:31:12 y'all concerned about that or I would say I mean we're concerned about all you
00:31:12 --> 00:31:17 know oppositions and you know people that are are entering into the race but
00:31:17 --> 00:31:23 I say you know the thing is you know I kind of hate that you know he stepped
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 away don't really know you know,
00:31:25 --> 00:31:30 I haven't personally had a conversation with them since probably like a month before that happened.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 So I can't really, you know, speak on it.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:39 I, I won't say concern as in like, we don't know, but I know that one thing
00:31:39 --> 00:31:44 about it, people still view him as being a Democrat. So I'm looking at more.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:50 So you're of course are going to have like split votes when it comes down to it.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 Cause some people, they're not really understanding.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 When they say independent Democrat Republican, they don't really think about
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 things like that because when you have municipal races, everybody kind of runs
00:32:00 --> 00:32:04 as independent sometimes. This is the first year where we had a lot of Democratic
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 municipal committees where people actually ran as Democrats.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:12 So just looking at that and just knowing the general community,
00:32:12 --> 00:32:18 not understanding the difference and not understanding where strength may lie,
00:32:18 --> 00:32:21 I feel like it's going to be split boats. Yeah.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:26 So since you brought it up, how did the party do in the municipal races this year?
00:32:27 --> 00:32:32 Yeah, we did really good. So we had, of course, I really wish that we could
00:32:32 --> 00:32:37 have won the mayoral seat with Sonia Williams Barnes on the coast.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:41 But we had a lot of aldermen, councilman seats that were filled.
00:32:42 --> 00:32:46 We flipped seven mayoral seats. So I felt like it was really good.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:52 And what we couldn't do in the time that was given with the resources that we had.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:56 So, of course, it's going to get better, you know, in time. But I feel like
00:32:56 --> 00:32:59 we had a very good election during municipals.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:04 We fought very hard, definitely worked directly with partners to make sure that
00:33:04 --> 00:33:09 candidates were endorsed, make sure they had funding, make sure they had groundwork.
00:33:09 --> 00:33:13 And then on Election Day, we, you know, we have this war room where we make
00:33:13 --> 00:33:18 sure we have attorneys all over the state where we're directly accessing and
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 troubleshooting things right when it happens.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:25 So I feel like we as the Democratic Party did a great job the past.
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 Well, since I've been there the past two years, we've definitely been running
00:33:28 --> 00:33:33 an elite voter protection system on election day and kind of leading up to election day.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 So that has been something that was different. And we were able to troubleshoot
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 a lot of things that happens.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 Voter suppression happens on election day probably more times than none,
00:33:44 --> 00:33:48 but giving voters that confidence to go back and vote, stay in line,
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 you know, hey, here's the correct code and statute for this.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:56 Don't let them, you know, deteriorate or stir your way. So-
00:33:57 --> 00:34:03 Yeah. So how have you have you been able to network with your contemporaries
00:34:03 --> 00:34:05 in the southern states to strategize?
00:34:05 --> 00:34:09 Have you all been like picking each other's brains to figure out how we can
00:34:09 --> 00:34:12 flip flip these southern states?
00:34:12 --> 00:34:17 Yeah, we we definitely I feel like southern states, we have this special bond
00:34:17 --> 00:34:19 that we know what's going on.
00:34:19 --> 00:34:24 And we're trying to like, one, keep each other encouraged to just steer the
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28 course. like, hey, I've worked on this, you know, we've come across this issue.
00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 What have you done to, you know, work this out in your area?
00:34:32 --> 00:34:36 What, you know, what works best? So I feel like we're constantly strategizing
00:34:36 --> 00:34:40 like around the clock to see what can we do better?
00:34:40 --> 00:34:43 Okay, this is happening and this was the response.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:46 Do you feel like, you know, I should have done this, you know,
00:34:46 --> 00:34:49 a little bit more kind of going back to the drawing board as she fit,
00:34:49 --> 00:34:53 as well as just getting that support from them during these election time.
00:34:53 --> 00:34:56 Like anytime something's going on, it's like, hey guys, you know,
00:34:56 --> 00:35:01 we have, when we had municipals, we had some of the Southern states even step in and phone banging.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:05 Like that's what we're here for, to be a family network for one another.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:08 So we're assist, we'll strategize.
00:35:08 --> 00:35:12 We, you know, like I said, we go to the drawing board mostly daily because this
00:35:12 --> 00:35:16 is like an ongoing thing that never stops. So, yeah. Yeah.
00:35:17 --> 00:35:23 So way back in the dinosaur days when I ran statewide, you would look at the
00:35:23 --> 00:35:30 map and it was like the western side of the state was blue and then everything else was red.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:34 What kind of inroads has the party made going east?
00:35:34 --> 00:35:40 So right now, for one, I'll say like we have.
00:35:41 --> 00:35:45 Kind of like going to one thing I have to say for myself in particular,
00:35:45 --> 00:35:51 like I look at data and see like where has these numbers like in what point in time?
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 Like, of course, we know people's turnout for presidential elections more so than any others.
00:35:55 --> 00:36:00 But when it comes down to like statewide races, when it comes down to,
00:36:00 --> 00:36:04 you know, special elections, one, making sure people are aware of it.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:09 To making sure that we have some people on the ground, either door knocking,
00:36:09 --> 00:36:12 either showing up doing listening sessions,
00:36:13 --> 00:36:20 voter education forms, maybe even going to a church and just giving a nonpartisan
00:36:20 --> 00:36:23 approach of like, hey, do you know this is going on right now?
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24 What's your viewpoint on it?
00:36:25 --> 00:36:29 We've also done some polling here recently where we've gotten feedback.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:33 Because I think the The thing is, more so than none, you know,
00:36:33 --> 00:36:38 every area of Mississippi, it is, Mississippi is really more blue than it is red.
00:36:39 --> 00:36:44 Some people are just afraid, I feel like some people are afraid to just really
00:36:44 --> 00:36:47 vote where they feel trust in because they just don't know.
00:36:48 --> 00:36:52 Mississippi is a personable state, so if they don't have any connection with
00:36:52 --> 00:36:53 you, they're going to vote the opposite way.
00:36:54 --> 00:36:58 And it's not anything against the candidate, it's just how Mississippi is ran
00:36:58 --> 00:37:02 in my eyes. And I know when you go to, you know, of course, top of the state,
00:37:03 --> 00:37:06 middle of the state to the bottom of the state, it's like three different climates, right?
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 When it comes down to people and, you know, how they view things.
00:37:10 --> 00:37:13 But we just got to, you know, meet people where they are.
00:37:14 --> 00:37:20 We got to understand what they view as being important in each community and
00:37:20 --> 00:37:26 see how we can better explain things as well as have candidates for one better
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 understand what's going on in the areas in which they are running.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:34 Yeah. Yeah. And for the listeners, when when when Ms.
00:37:34 --> 00:37:38 Bolden talks about personable, it's like, you know.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:43 You could have this fancy title, I'm the governor, I'm the treasurer, whatever.
00:37:43 --> 00:37:46 But in Mississippi, they're either going to call you by your first name,
00:37:46 --> 00:37:50 your last name, whichever one fits the rhythm of the conversation, right?
00:37:50 --> 00:37:51 They're not going to say, oh,
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54 Governor Sorensen. No, no, they're going to call you by your first name.
00:37:56 --> 00:38:01 So, yeah, Mississippians, when they get invested in somebody,
00:38:02 --> 00:38:07 they really think the key is getting the vast majority of them invested.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:10 I know that's been always the challenge.
00:38:11 --> 00:38:15 So at the end of your service to the party, whenever that is,
00:38:15 --> 00:38:18 what would you want your legacy to be?
00:38:19 --> 00:38:28 I want my legacy to be that of trust, that of integrity when it comes down to
00:38:28 --> 00:38:32 the relationship between the party and the community.
00:38:32 --> 00:38:35 Making sure that anytime I leave
00:38:35 --> 00:38:39 from somewhere I have left a mark of education Of
00:38:39 --> 00:38:42 a continuation of you know passion about
00:38:42 --> 00:38:48 something Making sure that people are known of what's going on around them So
00:38:48 --> 00:38:54 I would say more so just trust and integrity rebuilding that So I feel like
00:38:54 --> 00:38:59 that could be you know something as well as support to candidates where candidates
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01 feel they can trust the party,
00:39:01 --> 00:39:05 where candidates feel like they can lean on the party to get assistance.
00:39:05 --> 00:39:09 That's really what I want my legacy to be outside of candidates community.
00:39:10 --> 00:39:12 So candidates and community trust and integrity.
00:39:13 --> 00:39:17 Well, I'm really impressed. It sounds like you actually thought about this.
00:39:17 --> 00:39:22 A lot of times I'll ask somebody a question like that and they got to stop for a minute and pause.
00:39:22 --> 00:39:24 You went right into it. So I'm
00:39:24 --> 00:39:28 really impressed that you've you put some thought into that. All right.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:32 So you're the last question I want to ask you is not about politics.
00:39:32 --> 00:39:37 I know you've been heavily involved in nonprofits. So quickly talk about the
00:39:37 --> 00:39:42 work that you do with nonprofits, you know, especially ones that you've either
00:39:42 --> 00:39:44 started or you continue to work with.
00:39:45 --> 00:39:49 Yeah. So I personally have my own nonprofit, The Humble Change,
00:39:49 --> 00:39:55 where working with youth when it comes to mentorship and making sure that youth
00:39:55 --> 00:39:57 have a place of belonging.
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 So that is something that's very important to me.
00:40:01 --> 00:40:06 Now, when it comes down to advocacy and policy work and things of that nature,
00:40:06 --> 00:40:10 just making sure that I keep those relationships with nonpartisan groups.
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13 Like I said, I was working with Mississippi Votes, built their election protection
00:40:13 --> 00:40:20 program, just making sure that the integrity of Mississippi is looked at and made important.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:24 Because like you said earlier, you know, people overlook Mississippi,
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 but sometimes it's the lack of knowing
00:40:27 --> 00:40:31 when it comes down to the people of Mississippi. They just don't know.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:37 I've changed a lot of people in mindset just by having a conversation with them.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:41 So just more so keeping the connections, making sure that the partnerships are
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43 there when it comes down to Election Day.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:49 Making sure that in whatever way we can assist them on Election Day and get
00:40:49 --> 00:40:54 those resources over to them, as well as maybe take over whatever their issue
00:40:54 --> 00:40:56 may be that they may not have.
00:40:56 --> 00:41:01 Like, I wouldn't say the control over, but we may have like a little bit more push we could do.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:04 We take over that initiative and make sure that it's done.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:08 So just continuation of partnership and making sure that,
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 you know, everybody understands what each organization is supposed to do.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 You have great groups that are here. You have One Voice.
00:41:17 --> 00:41:22 You have, of course, Mississippi Votes. You have Mississippi Engage. You have We Must Vote.
00:41:22 --> 00:41:28 You also have Black Women's Roundtable, like making sure that all those connections
00:41:28 --> 00:41:33 are at the same table or at least a part of the conversation and are aware of
00:41:33 --> 00:41:37 what's going on all around Mississippi so nobody's left out. Yeah.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:44 All right. So, Mikkel Bolden, I just want to thank you for coming on,
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 but I really, really am glad that you are in the position you are in.
00:41:49 --> 00:41:54 It sounds like the party's in good hands with you running the day-to-day operations.
00:41:55 --> 00:42:02 And I like your optimism and your, well, I'll say pragmatic optimism because
00:42:02 --> 00:42:08 I know you're dealing with stuff, but you seem to see the light at the end of the tunnel.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:10 And that's very, very important in Mississippi politics.
00:42:11 --> 00:42:15 If people want to get in touch with you, whether it's dealing with the party
00:42:15 --> 00:42:18 or whether dealing with your nonprofit work, how can they do that?
00:42:18 --> 00:42:23 Yeah. So if they want to get in contact with me, when it comes down to social medias.
00:42:23 --> 00:42:28 If you look up The Humble Change, that's T-H-E, Humble Change,
00:42:28 --> 00:42:30 all together, you can find me there.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:37 Mikel Taylor is my name on Facebook. That's my maiden name, but you can contact me there.
00:42:38 --> 00:42:43 Just reach out. You type in Mikel, I'm pretty sure a social media is going to come up.
00:42:43 --> 00:42:46 I have an author page that's Blossoms Truth.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:51 So either of those pages, just type it in, look me up. If you look up Mississippi
00:42:51 --> 00:42:52 Democrats, you'll find me.
00:42:52 --> 00:42:56 So I'm here and willing to have whatever conversations, you know,
00:42:56 --> 00:43:01 with people, not one to steer away from making connection to make sure that
00:43:01 --> 00:43:03 we have a better state. So I'm here.
00:43:04 --> 00:43:08 All right. Well, thank you again for coming on. I greatly appreciate it.
00:43:08 --> 00:43:10 No problem, man. Thank you for your time, Mr. Fleming.
00:43:11 --> 00:43:13 All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:32 Music.
00:43:30 --> 00:43:34 We'll see you next time. All right. And we are back.
00:43:35 --> 00:43:39 And so now it is time for my next guest, Renee Williams.
00:43:39 --> 00:43:45 Renee Williams is a dedicated advocate and leader in the field of victim services,
00:43:46 --> 00:43:51 currently serving as chief executive officer of the National Center of Victims of Crime.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 With over 15 years of experience in the nonprofit and legal sectors,
00:43:57 --> 00:44:01 Renee has a proven track record of championing the rights and needs of victims of crime.
00:44:01 --> 00:44:08 Prior to her role at NCVC, Renee was the executive director of a legal services
00:44:08 --> 00:44:12 organization in Pittsburgh that focused on the legal rights of victims of domestic
00:44:12 --> 00:44:15 violence and other indigent clients.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:21 Renee is a sought-after speaker nationally, known for her dynamic presentations
00:44:21 --> 00:44:24 and ability to engage diverse audiences.
00:44:24 --> 00:44:29 She has represented NCVC on NBC Nightly News with Lester Holt.
00:44:30 --> 00:44:34 Court TV, HLN, and is a frequent guest on podcasts.
00:44:34 --> 00:44:38 She has been instrumental in shaping national conversations around victims'
00:44:38 --> 00:44:43 rights and has been a vocal advocate for changes to the justice system that
00:44:43 --> 00:44:45 better protect and support victims of crime.
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 As the Executive Director of the NCVC, Renee continues to lead with integrity,
00:44:51 --> 00:44:55 compassion, and a commitment to making a difference in the lives of those affected by crime.
00:44:56 --> 00:45:01 Her vision and dedication have made her a respected figure in the victim services
00:45:01 --> 00:45:06 field, and she remains a tireless advocate for those whose voices often go unheard.
00:45:06 --> 00:45:11 Her passion for empowering survivors and creating a more and just,
00:45:11 --> 00:45:16 compassionate society has been the driving force behind her career and reaches
00:45:16 --> 00:45:17 beyond her professional interests.
00:45:17 --> 00:45:23 She mentors through Big Brothers Big Sisters, advocates for children as a court-appointed
00:45:23 --> 00:45:27 special advocate, and as a weekly volunteer at Maryland Therapeutic Writing.
00:45:28 --> 00:45:33 For these efforts, she has been recognized as an Athena Young professional finalist,
00:45:34 --> 00:45:38 named one of Pittsburgh's 40 Under 40, and received a Jefferson Award.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42 Renee holds a Juris Doctorate from the University of Pittsburgh School of Law
00:45:42 --> 00:45:46 and a Bachelor's Degree in Theater Arts from Point Park University.
00:45:46 --> 00:45:51 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:45:51 --> 00:45:54 on this podcast, Renee Williams.
00:45:56 --> 00:46:06 Music.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:09 All right. Renee Williams. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:46:09 --> 00:46:12 I'm good. It's Friday. It's sunny. I'm good to go. How are you doing?
00:46:13 --> 00:46:16 I'm doing all right. It's not as sunny here in Atlanta where I am,
00:46:16 --> 00:46:17 but it's still a good day.
00:46:18 --> 00:46:22 So I'm glad for that. And I'm really glad to have you come on.
00:46:22 --> 00:46:25 I think the work that you do is very, very important.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:29 As somebody that's been an elected official and somebody that's been in law
00:46:29 --> 00:46:36 enforcement, I think, you know, advocates for people that have experienced crime is very important.
00:46:36 --> 00:46:40 And it seems to have been something that I think people took for granted and
00:46:40 --> 00:46:41 we'll dive into that a little more.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:44 But it seems like some people took for granted for a lot of years.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:48 And then I'd say over the last 20 years or so, people have been like,
00:46:49 --> 00:46:50 hey, we might need to look out
00:46:50 --> 00:46:55 for the folks that have been victims or survivors of criminal activity.
00:46:55 --> 00:47:01 So I'm glad that you have ventured into that, and we'll dive into why you decided to do that.
00:47:02 --> 00:47:05 But before we get started, I do a couple of icebreakers.
00:47:05 --> 00:47:08 So the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:47:09 --> 00:47:14 Survivors deserve control over their own destinies, not the exploitation of
00:47:14 --> 00:47:18 their families and private lives to serve political goals. What does that quote mean to you?
00:47:19 --> 00:47:22 First of all, who said that? That's brilliant. I think you did.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:28 Well, that's awkward. I'm a genius.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:35 I think that what I meant by that and what that means to me is that a lot of
00:47:35 --> 00:47:40 times you see in any politics, people will say they're tough on crime.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:41 They're not tough on crime.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:46 They stand for survivors and they say it for clickbait, but they don't always
00:47:46 --> 00:47:50 know exactly what that means. And what we have found that means is actually
00:47:50 --> 00:47:55 walking with survivors to help them with what they need.
00:47:55 --> 00:48:01 Not all survivors want the same thing, and not all survivors want what some
00:48:01 --> 00:48:03 politicians put out there that they say they want.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:07 Survivors are not a monolith. They all have different feelings and opinions,
00:48:07 --> 00:48:14 and each survivor individually has the right to decide what path is going to
00:48:14 --> 00:48:16 get them to their point of healing.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:22 Yeah. And don't feel bad. Not everybody recognizes their own genius when I do
00:48:22 --> 00:48:24 that quote icebreaker thing.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:30 But, you know, it's all good. And now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:48:30 --> 00:48:33 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:39 Looking for some guidance. The first number I see on my wall is six. Okay.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:45 Well, what do you think was the worst, best thing the previous administration
00:48:45 --> 00:48:48 did? I'm going to punt on that on the 12th.
00:48:49 --> 00:48:52 Did we say 12? Yeah. All right.
00:48:52 --> 00:48:57 What advice do you have for recognizing fake news, like propaganda,
00:48:58 --> 00:48:59 misinformation, disinformation?
00:49:00 --> 00:49:04 I think you've got to do your own research on everything. I think that all social
00:49:04 --> 00:49:09 media has really led us down a path of just believing whatever we see.
00:49:10 --> 00:49:15 I fall into that quite a bit. Make sure you verify everything you hear. Okay.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:20 All right. So how did you become an advocate for crime victims?
00:49:21 --> 00:49:25 So there was victimization in my family. And I think whenever you speak to somebody
00:49:25 --> 00:49:27 in the crime victims field, this is what you find.
00:49:28 --> 00:49:31 There is a history of some type of victimization, whether it's a family member,
00:49:31 --> 00:49:37 whether it's themselves. So there was a history of victimization within my extended
00:49:37 --> 00:49:41 family that really impacted how I saw things as a child.
00:49:41 --> 00:49:47 I was then a victim of crime at the age of 19, which also impacted how I saw
00:49:47 --> 00:49:48 the world and viewed the world.
00:49:48 --> 00:49:54 And I went to law school after that and got the corporate job that everybody
00:49:54 --> 00:49:58 wants, that everybody longs for in law school and realized that I just wasn't
00:49:58 --> 00:50:01 using my talents and my capability to the best of my abilities.
00:50:01 --> 00:50:06 I'm Christian, and there's a wonderful quote, to whom much is given, much will be expected.
00:50:07 --> 00:50:12 And also, I trusted you with a little, so I will trust you with a lot.
00:50:12 --> 00:50:17 And I didn't think that I was living that out by being just a corporate lawyer
00:50:17 --> 00:50:18 that kind of filled a hole.
00:50:19 --> 00:50:25 So I started to look at how to best expand what I was doing.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28 And I started actually at a small nonprofit in Pennsylvania,
00:50:28 --> 00:50:33 just outside of Pittsburgh, working on just domestic violence work and helping
00:50:33 --> 00:50:38 victims of domestic violence within their court proceedings. And it led to this.
00:50:39 --> 00:50:44 Okay. So when you say this, you're talking about the National Center for Victims of Crime.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:48 What exactly is the National Center for Victims of Crime? Well,
00:50:49 --> 00:50:52 we were founded in 1985, so we're celebrating our 40th anniversary.
00:50:52 --> 00:50:57 We were founded by a family whose mother was killed by her husband,
00:50:57 --> 00:51:03 and her children were very privileged and very wealthy and very poorly treated
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 by both the justice system and the media.
00:51:05 --> 00:51:10 And they realized that if they went through that from their place of privilege,
00:51:10 --> 00:51:14 what a struggle an average everyday victim must have.
00:51:14 --> 00:51:17 And they wanted to make sure that there was some help. So they formed us.
00:51:17 --> 00:51:21 We started really as an advocacy group that pushed for a lot of the original
00:51:21 --> 00:51:23 victims' laws. And you're right.
00:51:23 --> 00:51:27 For a long time, it's just been within the past few decades that we've recognized
00:51:27 --> 00:51:30 that we need to give victims rights within the justice system.
00:51:31 --> 00:51:36 And so they recognize that. So we really pushed for VOCA and VAWA 40 years ago,
00:51:36 --> 00:51:41 which are two different forms of legislation that have really changed the landscape of victims rights.
00:51:41 --> 00:51:46 Now we provide training and technical assistance to police officers.
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 To judges, to lawyers, to anybody who helps someone in the justice system.
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 We also help victims directly through our hotline. And we do a couple of other
00:51:54 --> 00:51:59 things just to make sure that we are trying our best to create a victim-centered
00:51:59 --> 00:52:04 ecosphere of the justice system. We've oddly gotten a little bit away from our roots.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:06 We don't do advocacy anymore.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:11 We don't do nearly, I wouldn't say not at all, but we really don't push for laws.
00:52:12 --> 00:52:16 We try to stay out of legislation and politics unless it's something that very
00:52:16 --> 00:52:19 much impacts and harms a victim. Okay.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:25 Your organization survived the recent suspension of grants from the U.S.
00:52:26 --> 00:52:30 Department of Justice, except for one. How were you able to do that,
00:52:30 --> 00:52:34 and how will the loss grant impact your organization?
00:52:34 --> 00:52:39 So we did, we had originally five of our grants or subgrants cut.
00:52:40 --> 00:52:44 We managed to convince them that two of our grants were very valuable.
00:52:44 --> 00:52:50 And we were able to do that because we were able to show our story and prove
00:52:50 --> 00:52:54 our story and prove the two that were returned how truly valuable those were.
00:52:54 --> 00:52:58 One of the grants that had originally been cut that was restored within 24 hours
00:52:58 --> 00:53:05 was our hotline that provides 24-7 services to all victims of crime with no questions asked.
00:53:05 --> 00:53:11 So that was restored almost immediately as was another grant that provides what
00:53:11 --> 00:53:12 we think are very valuable services.
00:53:12 --> 00:53:18 And we just, we were able to get out there and explain why our grants,
00:53:18 --> 00:53:22 why our programs were so valuable. And we were incredibly lucky that the Justice
00:53:22 --> 00:53:23 Department agreed with us.
00:53:24 --> 00:53:28 The other three grants, we've had to make some cuts. We've had to look at ways
00:53:28 --> 00:53:30 that we do business and make some changes.
00:53:31 --> 00:53:35 We did have to do layoffs of some of our staff members who were on those grants
00:53:35 --> 00:53:39 and were working specifically with those programs. So we did have to make those cuts.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:47 Yeah. So it was five in total and you were able to maintain two and then you lost. Correct.
00:53:47 --> 00:53:53 Okay. I thought it was just three. I only saw three that got highlighted, but okay.
00:53:53 --> 00:53:58 So two of when I say the five, we were called sub-grandson.
00:53:58 --> 00:54:02 So we were working with somebody else and that person lost their program and
00:54:02 --> 00:54:06 therefore we got cut off as well. I got you. Okay.
00:54:06 --> 00:54:13 Talk about your work toward helping fraud victims overcome shame and sadness.
00:54:13 --> 00:54:23 So fraud victims are one of the last understood victims, victim types in our kind of society now.
00:54:23 --> 00:54:28 We've gotten away from victim blaming in every single other type of crime except for fraud.
00:54:28 --> 00:54:33 And we still use victim blaming language like how could you fall for this?
00:54:33 --> 00:54:38 So for victims of fraud, a lot of people think it's just money.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:40 You just lost money and it's your own fault.
00:54:41 --> 00:54:46 That's not actually true. A lot of times they are still having to interact with the world.
00:54:46 --> 00:54:49 So there is still a moment of fear when they have to interface with the world.
00:54:49 --> 00:54:53 They've also often lost a relationship if it was a romance scam.
00:54:53 --> 00:54:57 They've lost someone that they genuinely believed cared about them.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:02 And a lot of times they're facing shame, both from people who are judging them
00:55:02 --> 00:55:05 and wondering how they could have fallen for something.
00:55:05 --> 00:55:11 And I use that those words with air quotes, but also shame from their family.
00:55:11 --> 00:55:14 You know, a lot of times we see individuals who lose their entire life savings
00:55:14 --> 00:55:17 and what they really meant on to pass to their family.
00:55:17 --> 00:55:20 And they're so worried about how folks will react to that.
00:55:21 --> 00:55:28 Yeah, well, I I I went through that. It was like a fraud situation.
00:55:28 --> 00:55:35 Somebody got into my bank account and, you know, at first the bank was working with me and all that.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:38 And then I ended up losing the account anyway.
00:55:39 --> 00:55:44 And, you know, so I kind of a lot of those emotions you talked about,
00:55:44 --> 00:55:45 I definitely was feeling that.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 It's like, how did how did I let that happen? And, you know,
00:55:50 --> 00:55:56 you're trying to figure out what did you do wrong to get into that place?
00:55:56 --> 00:55:59 And then when you end up losing the account anyway, it's like,
00:55:59 --> 00:56:03 well, why even bother? You know what I'm saying? So it's like.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:09 So you help people kind of walk through those emotions and all that kind of stuff.
00:56:09 --> 00:56:13 And I want to say with that, you know, and there's so many words,
00:56:13 --> 00:56:14 we can call them fraudsters, scam artists.
00:56:15 --> 00:56:19 I hate the term scam artists because it makes them seem like they're fancy in
00:56:19 --> 00:56:22 some way. Even fraudsters is a little too cutesy for me.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:26 I think perpetrator, I think we should call them perpetrators of fraud.
00:56:26 --> 00:56:32 But perpetrators have become so smart and so advanced, and there are really
00:56:32 --> 00:56:38 entire organizations that are built around scamming one person.
00:56:38 --> 00:56:42 And so that's what I think is very important for everybody to understand is
00:56:42 --> 00:56:48 we see this across the spectrum from education level, race, position in life.
00:56:48 --> 00:56:55 Anybody could become a victim of a scammer because they really have become incredibly
00:56:55 --> 00:57:02 sophisticated at what they say there is a science they use to how to get into
00:57:02 --> 00:57:05 your mind and convince you that they are who they are.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:13 It's not your kind of grandmother's fraud of let me give you a call and say
00:57:13 --> 00:57:15 it's a publisher's clearinghouse check.
00:57:15 --> 00:57:18 It's become much more advanced and sophisticated than that.
00:57:19 --> 00:57:22 Yeah. And then is it the published current house?
00:57:22 --> 00:57:27 I think they just, there's one guy that's waiting on his money and he never
00:57:27 --> 00:57:29 got, they just shut down.
00:57:29 --> 00:57:34 And I hope he gets his money. But yeah, he's like in the lurch.
00:57:34 --> 00:57:38 They said, well, we filed bankruptcy. It's like, and? It's like,
00:57:38 --> 00:57:39 you still need to pay that debt.
00:57:40 --> 00:57:46 But yeah. I met one young woman who has a master's degree in computer science
00:57:46 --> 00:57:49 and was a victim of an employment scam.
00:57:49 --> 00:57:53 So somebody texted her and said, we're looking for this type of position.
00:57:53 --> 00:57:56 We found your resume on Monster or some other site.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:59 I probably shouldn't call out certain sites, but we found your resume at this
00:57:59 --> 00:58:01 place. Are you still interested in a job?
00:58:02 --> 00:58:06 And, you know, she went in for an interview. There was a real interview.
00:58:06 --> 00:58:10 And next thing you know, she had given them her bank account information because
00:58:10 --> 00:58:13 she was hired and they wanted to put her on payroll.
00:58:13 --> 00:58:21 And it was all a sham. So incredibly educated people are becoming victims of scams as well.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:26 It has nothing to do with your intelligence or kind of, quote, falling for it.
00:58:26 --> 00:58:34 Yeah. So I want to get back to this particular point we were discussing about the focus.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:39 Why do you think in the United States, I can't speak for any country,
00:58:39 --> 00:58:45 why do you think in the United States there's a stigma attached to people who
00:58:45 --> 00:58:47 are victims or survivors of crime?
00:58:48 --> 00:58:51 Wait, I'm sorry. We broke up right at that moment you froze.
00:58:51 --> 00:58:53 So could you repeat the question?
00:58:54 --> 00:59:00 Oh, I was saying in the United States, why do you think that there's a stigma
00:59:00 --> 00:59:04 on people who are victims or survivors of crime?
00:59:04 --> 00:59:09 I think it depends on the crime type, but I think it's deeply psychological.
00:59:09 --> 00:59:14 And I think that we believe that we ourselves as a human would,
00:59:14 --> 00:59:17 if it's a scam, not fall for something.
00:59:17 --> 00:59:22 If it is a sexual abuse case, not be in that position. I think that we desperately.
00:59:23 --> 00:59:27 Somewhere deep in our psyche, want to believe that we could protect ourselves from something.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:30 And the bad things don't just happen if we do everything right.
00:59:31 --> 00:59:35 And I think that bleeds out into when we are looking at victims.
00:59:36 --> 00:59:39 And frankly, I think that that is why there's an obsession with true crime in
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 the United States. We call it protective vigilantism.
00:59:43 --> 00:59:48 It's why did this happened to somebody else? And why am I different?
00:59:48 --> 00:59:51 Why would this never happen to me because of how I live my life?
00:59:53 --> 00:59:58 Yeah, I do think, you know, that that that explains a lot of things that we do,
00:59:58 --> 01:00:04 you know, like which neighborhoods we try to buy a house in or move into,
01:00:04 --> 01:00:08 you know, schools that that we choose for our children to go,
01:00:08 --> 01:00:11 all that kind of stuff, thinking that,
01:00:12 --> 01:00:19 well, we're in a certain spot, then we're not going to be exposed to crime as
01:00:19 --> 01:00:26 opposed to living in, you know, the city or whatever, right?
01:00:27 --> 01:00:35 And so now, do you think that your organization and others have done a good
01:00:35 --> 01:00:40 job in letting people know that, I guess for a better term,
01:00:41 --> 01:00:51 that it's not okay that you went through that, but it's not something to be ashamed of if you did.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:56 I think we've done a lot of work on that. I think that it is the human condition.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:02 To just naturally always wonder what you could have done differently and how
01:01:02 --> 01:01:06 to not be ashamed. And so we do work with folks on that.
01:01:06 --> 01:01:13 I think that really the field and the movement in the past 40 years has made
01:01:13 --> 01:01:18 huge strides in that area of people not victim blaming and of victims not blaming themselves.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:23 But I do think that that is always the human condition to kind of kick back to that instinctually.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:28 Like, what could I have done differently? I walk on a trail just about every day.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:31 And if something happened to
01:01:31 --> 01:01:34 me, what could I have done? Should I have carried a bigger thing of mace?
01:01:34 --> 01:01:39 Should I have brought my dog that day? We want to naturally break down a series
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42 of decisions to see what we could have changed.
01:01:43 --> 01:01:48 Yeah. What about the trauma aspect of it? How do you help people get through trauma?
01:01:49 --> 01:01:52 So a lot of times we have to figure out what they need first.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:57 So our hotline, again, we have victim assistance specialists who will help people
01:01:57 --> 01:01:59 process what they have been through.
01:01:59 --> 01:02:05 The first and most important part in any processing of trauma is ensuring that somebody feels safe.
01:02:05 --> 01:02:10 You cannot start to process trauma until you feel like you are in a safe place.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:14 So that is step one. And then after that, again, everybody needs something different.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:21 You can have a victim of a somewhat violent crime who says they're OK and genuinely
01:02:21 --> 01:02:23 believes they're OK and that they did not have trauma.
01:02:23 --> 01:02:26 And that's not usually true, but maybe it is.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:32 We process things so differently as individual humans that it's really one on
01:02:32 --> 01:02:37 one case by case basis when we are working with somebody. Yeah.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:43 Why is it, why is court backlog devastating to victims of crime?
01:02:44 --> 01:02:47 When something bad happens to
01:02:47 --> 01:02:50 you your instinct is to want to
01:02:50 --> 01:02:53 move on and so a lot of times that
01:02:53 --> 01:02:58 we see this with civil cases as well in the moment you want to address the wrong
01:02:58 --> 01:03:02 that was done and you want to make sure that this doesn't happen to somebody
01:03:02 --> 01:03:07 else but as time drags on and you get further and further out from that traumatic
01:03:07 --> 01:03:11 event you don't want to keep being reminded of it so So that's part one.
01:03:11 --> 01:03:16 But part two is a lot of times, the longer something drags out,
01:03:16 --> 01:03:21 the more victims and witnesses are subject to intimidation, retaliation and threats.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:28 And so if there's not a quick prosecution, you're going to see victims and witnesses
01:03:28 --> 01:03:34 lose interest is the wrong word, but kind of lose steam and not want to be involved
01:03:34 --> 01:03:36 because they need that space.
01:03:37 --> 01:03:40 So how does your organization help people deal with that?
01:03:41 --> 01:03:47 Again, it's on a case-by-case. So our hotline workers will walk people through what the process is.
01:03:48 --> 01:03:52 They will try to provide emotional support to everything that's happening.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:56 We do try to work with prosecutors on moving cases along.
01:03:56 --> 01:04:01 So not directly helping victims, but actually helping the individuals that are moving these cases.
01:04:01 --> 01:04:07 And we look at best practices on how to make sure that the backlog is going
01:04:07 --> 01:04:15 as quickly as possible. Is there a particular state or city or...
01:04:17 --> 01:04:24 Environment where you see those backlogs more or is it, I shouldn't say a state
01:04:24 --> 01:04:25 because you probably don't want
01:04:25 --> 01:04:30 to name a state, but is there a particular type of state or type of city,
01:04:31 --> 01:04:36 where it's like, okay, well, we know there's going to be a situation we're going to have to help,
01:04:37 --> 01:04:41 you know, and I'm sure you don't, people reach out to you all.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:45 You don't go out and, And, you know, like attorneys with billboards,
01:04:45 --> 01:04:49 you know, you just, you know, if people call, then you just deal with it as,
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52 like you said, per case basis.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:57 You know, that's a great question. I honestly don't know because a lot of times
01:04:57 --> 01:05:00 we aren't looking at individuals on the front end.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 We're looking at them post that. And a lot of the information we're getting is post that.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:09 So that's somewhere that I'm not an expert in because we're helping victims
01:05:09 --> 01:05:11 and not necessarily the court process.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:17 So that's probably not the question for me to try to answer Okay, I got you,
01:05:18 --> 01:05:23 So as we were recording this Yesterday was the National Day of Remembrance for
01:05:23 --> 01:05:29 Murder Victims How does your organization help commemorate that day annually?
01:05:30 --> 01:05:35 Well, we do try to be respectful of that on social media We will push things
01:05:35 --> 01:05:40 out But I think when it comes to commemoration days We don't necessarily do
01:05:40 --> 01:05:45 anything extra special because we know we're needed the other 364 days a year.
01:05:46 --> 01:05:52 So for us, every day is national commemoration of homicide victims because we
01:05:52 --> 01:05:56 are on the phone with those families. We are constantly trying to help them.
01:05:57 --> 01:06:06 Yeah. Do you feel that we are getting to a point now where we're getting desensitized
01:06:06 --> 01:06:11 to things, being desensitized to crime, particular types of crime?
01:06:12 --> 01:06:17 Or do you think that we still have this incredible human element out here of
01:06:17 --> 01:06:25 compassion and your work is appreciated for what you're doing?
01:06:26 --> 01:06:29 I think our work is appreciated. I think we still have the human element.
01:06:30 --> 01:06:34 But I think that I can think all of those things and also know for a fact that
01:06:34 --> 01:06:36 we are becoming grossly desensitized.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:41 And I think a lot of that isn't what most people think because a lot of people
01:06:41 --> 01:06:43 want to point to the mass shootings and all of that.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:47 It's actually has its genesis in true crime as a genre.
01:06:47 --> 01:06:52 And we work with true crime creators. We do try to help them make victim centered
01:06:52 --> 01:07:00 media. But in the past 10 years, we've seen such an explosion of true crime content.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:07 You could, if you chose, listen to a different true crime case for probably
01:07:07 --> 01:07:12 four weeks, 24-7, without a change and without the same case.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:18 There are podcasts, there are YouTube channels, there are however many Netflix,
01:07:18 --> 01:07:26 Hulu, ID Discovery, all have a true crime content creator. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:32 And I think that that has started to very much desensitize us to homicide.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:36 Side, it's also made us forget that the victims involved are people,
01:07:36 --> 01:07:38 not characters in a story.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:42 And we go to an event called CrimeCon every year,
01:07:42 --> 01:07:48 which is about, I think this year they had 9 attendees who are just obsessed
01:07:48 --> 01:07:52 with true crime, and they want to meet the victims' families,
01:07:52 --> 01:07:54 and they want to meet the victims. And in a lot of ways, that's great.
01:07:55 --> 01:07:59 But we've noticed that there's, I almost want to call it a veil,
01:08:00 --> 01:08:04 where people view these very real people they're meeting, like they're famous
01:08:04 --> 01:08:09 actors or characters in a story and not that they've lived out the worst day of their life.
01:08:09 --> 01:08:13 So when you participate in something like that, how do you, how do you.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:19 How do you do you do? Do you participate to kind of get people to drop that
01:08:19 --> 01:08:25 veil or are you there on behalf of particular clients? How does that work?
01:08:25 --> 01:08:30 So we don't have particular clients. We are there to try to make sure that people
01:08:30 --> 01:08:35 are consuming true crime ethically and are also producing true crime ethically.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:39 So we've released several guides in this and a lot of it.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:43 So when we go, we have a booth and a table where people come and talk to us.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:47 But the producers of CrimeCon have actually been quite lovely to work with,
01:08:47 --> 01:08:51 and they always give me a few sessions to talk about true crime ethics.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:59 And so we try to emphasize that you should not be consuming true crime unless
01:08:59 --> 01:09:03 the victims or the victims' families themselves were actually interviewed,
01:09:03 --> 01:09:05 because if they were not interviewed,
01:09:05 --> 01:09:11 it probably means that they did not consent to their story being told again. So we push that.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:14 We also, yes, push the idea that these are people.
01:09:15 --> 01:09:19 And so you might be very curious about certain aspects of their life.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:22 But when you go to have this conversation with them, think about whether or
01:09:22 --> 01:09:27 not you'd be offended if somebody asked you that question. So we do a lot of things there.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:32 We've seen a lot of, we have a lot of hope when we go because we have seen changes
01:09:32 --> 01:09:37 and we have seen, especially content creators, gear much more closely to being
01:09:37 --> 01:09:40 ethical, but there's still always work to be done.
01:09:40 --> 01:09:44 All right. So I'll close out with this question.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:50 When it's all said and done, what would you want your legacy to be?
01:09:50 --> 01:09:57 What do you want to see accomplished with the work that you're doing being an
01:09:57 --> 01:09:59 advocate for crime victims?
01:09:59 --> 01:10:06 That's a hard one. I would like to know that I personally moved the needle,
01:10:07 --> 01:10:13 even just a little bit, on true crime cases and on true crime ethics.
01:10:13 --> 01:10:21 And I would like to know that I helped as many families individually as I could personally.
01:10:22 --> 01:10:26 It's very hard in this space, in this field, and in this position to not kind
01:10:26 --> 01:10:28 of get lost in the failures.
01:10:29 --> 01:10:35 So when people call me and I can't help them, that's devastating to me, but it happens a lot.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:39 It happens more than the victories. And so it's easy to get lost in that sometimes.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:41 It's also easy to get lost in numbers.
01:10:42 --> 01:10:48 And so my ideal would be that I personally helped impact somebody's life,
01:10:48 --> 01:10:51 whether it's on a case, whether it's getting them the help they needed,
01:10:51 --> 01:10:54 as many individuals as I possibly can.
01:10:55 --> 01:11:00 Well, Renee Williams, I want to thank you for the work that you're doing.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:03 It's an honor to talk to you about.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:08 You know, not only the work, but just talk to you as a person,
01:11:08 --> 01:11:13 because it seems as though that you're very committed to what you're doing and
01:11:13 --> 01:11:18 to leave the cushy world of corporate law to dig in and to help people,
01:11:18 --> 01:11:21 that speaks volumes about your character.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:25 If people want to support the work that you're doing, if people want to get
01:11:25 --> 01:11:27 involved, how can they do that?
01:11:27 --> 01:11:30 And how can they reach out to you? Absolutely.
01:11:30 --> 01:11:35 Victimsofcrime.org, and it's victims plural, so I'll say it again slowly.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:38 It's Victimsofcrime.org.
01:11:39 --> 01:11:45 We are also on Instagram, which is Crime Victims O-R-G, just one word.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:49 Reach out. If people want to donate, we always appreciate it.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:53 There's a donate button, but the starting place is really on our webpage to
01:11:53 --> 01:11:56 figure out where you fit in, Whether it's a volunteer opportunity,
01:11:57 --> 01:12:00 whether assistance is needed, that's always the start place.
01:12:01 --> 01:12:05 All right. Well, I know you're trying to enjoy your weekend,
01:12:05 --> 01:12:06 so I'm going to let you go.
01:12:07 --> 01:12:11 But I greatly appreciate you coming on and talking about the work that you're
01:12:11 --> 01:12:13 doing. Absolutely. I appreciate your time.
01:12:14 --> 01:12:23 All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. We'll be right back.
01:12:19 --> 01:12:37 Music.
01:12:35 --> 01:12:41 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Joan Garry.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:47 Joan Garry is an internationally recognized champion for the nonprofit sector
01:12:47 --> 01:12:53 and a highly sought after executive coach for CEOs of some of the nation's largest organizations.
01:12:53 --> 01:12:58 An author, blogger, and founder of the Nonprofit Leadership Lab,
01:12:58 --> 01:13:03 Joan has helped hundreds of thousands of nonprofit board and staff leaders become
01:13:03 --> 01:13:10 five-star managers, communicators, and the inspiring ambassadors their organization need and deserve.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:16 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
01:13:16 --> 01:13:19 on this podcast, Joan Garry.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:32 Music.
01:13:32 --> 01:13:37 How are you doing? You doing good? I am. I'm good. I'm good.
01:13:38 --> 01:13:43 The world is a little not so good, but we try to tackle, you know,
01:13:44 --> 01:13:46 one day at a time and try to do one good thing at a time.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:50 And it kind of it's a pretty good antidote.
01:13:50 --> 01:13:52 Yeah, well, it eventually will add up.
01:13:53 --> 01:13:57 But, you know, I feel that you can't do much wrong because you have the same
01:13:57 --> 01:14:00 name as my mom. So I'm sure you're going to be OK.
01:14:01 --> 01:14:04 When I was a kid, people used to say, oh, yeah, my mother's name is Joan.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:08 And my name didn't actually fit until I actually became a mother.
01:14:08 --> 01:14:10 And so now I'm somebody's mother named Joan.
01:14:12 --> 01:14:19 Yeah, that's always interesting how we grow into our names.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:22 My biggest hang up was when I was running for office.
01:14:23 --> 01:14:27 And when I was running locally, that was one thing. But when I ran statewide,
01:14:28 --> 01:14:30 people thought I was a different color.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:34 When I was, because of the way I spell my name. And so when I showed up,
01:14:34 --> 01:14:37 they was like, oh, you're black. And it was like, yeah, yeah.
01:14:39 --> 01:14:43 So I understand how names can get. I think it's good to keep people on their
01:14:43 --> 01:14:46 toes. That's exactly right. That's exactly right.
01:14:46 --> 01:14:50 So look, there's a couple of things I do to start off the podcast,
01:14:50 --> 01:14:52 the little icebreakers I do.
01:14:53 --> 01:14:59 Sure. So the first one is a quote. Being a nonprofit leader is actually a privilege
01:14:59 --> 01:15:01 and a joy. What does that quote mean to you?
01:15:02 --> 01:15:05 Well, first of all, I think it's my quote, right? That's correct.
01:15:05 --> 01:15:12 So what it means for me, Erik, is, and it comes a little bit from my faith, if I'm being honest.
01:15:13 --> 01:15:18 I grew up Catholic, and I actually am now a Jew by choice.
01:15:19 --> 01:15:24 And there is a phrase in Judaism called tikkun alam, which means to repair the world.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:33 And work in the nonprofit space, for me, is about repairing the world.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:37 And for Jews, that's why we're here. We're here to repair the world.
01:15:37 --> 01:15:45 And to be able to do that in a professional capacity feels like a real joy.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:50 And to serve people, to be able to advocate for them, to be able to provide
01:15:50 --> 01:15:58 them with beautiful music, to help ensure their rights, that just feels like a privilege to me.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:04 And so that's how I think about nonprofit service as both a joy and a privilege. Okay.
01:16:05 --> 01:16:07 Now, the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:12 Are there 20 of them? No, no. There's 20 of them to choose from,
01:16:12 --> 01:16:15 but you choose by giving me a number.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:19 Okay, I'm going to go with number six. Okay.
01:16:20 --> 01:16:26 What do you think was the worst or best thing the previous administration did?
01:16:28 --> 01:16:30 When I say previous, I'm talking about the Biden administration.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:33 I have to do one or the other?
01:16:34 --> 01:16:39 Yeah, well, whichever one you feel good. If you want to do both, do both. That's fine.
01:16:39 --> 01:16:43 It's an icebreaker, so maybe I can be a little flexible here.
01:16:44 --> 01:16:49 Because I ran a gay rights organization for 10 years, I can say that the Biden
01:16:49 --> 01:16:55 administration was probably one of the most LGBT friendly that made the most
01:16:55 --> 01:16:57 good things happen for the LGBT community.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:01 On the flip side, I probably won't be the first person that answers this way.
01:17:02 --> 01:17:07 I voted for Joe Biden because I saw him as a transitional president that was
01:17:07 --> 01:17:11 going to make room for new leaders. And his cabinet showed me that when he named his cabinet.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:15 I saw young, I saw diverse, I saw skilled.
01:17:16 --> 01:17:23 And I thought that his decision to run for a second term, he sort of,
01:17:23 --> 01:17:27 in my mind, broke that promise to me as a voter. separate and apart from whatever
01:17:27 --> 01:17:29 happened to him during the second administration.
01:17:30 --> 01:17:40 So I feel like he was an ideal transitional president who got us back on track after the pandemic.
01:17:40 --> 01:17:45 Brought in a bunch of new diverse leaders to serve on his cabinet and in his administration.
01:17:45 --> 01:17:50 And that was his job to put us back on our feet and pass the baton to a new generation.
01:17:51 --> 01:17:57 Yeah. So you mentioned your work And for the listening audience, Ms.
01:17:57 --> 01:18:01 Gary was the leader, the executive director of GLAAD for 10 years,
01:18:02 --> 01:18:06 which is one of the most preeminent LGBTQ organizations in the country.
01:18:07 --> 01:18:12 How did you start your journey into the nonprofit sector? Because GLAAD is a
01:18:12 --> 01:18:15 nonprofit, but you were doing other work before then.
01:18:15 --> 01:18:20 So how did you get into nonprofit work? So, I bet when you ask questions like
01:18:20 --> 01:18:28 this, you get the same sort of conceptual response, which is that career paths are very rarely linear,
01:18:29 --> 01:18:31 right? And mine certainly was not.
01:18:32 --> 01:18:35 Prior to joining GLAAD, I was a successful media executive.
01:18:35 --> 01:18:40 I was part of the management team that launched MTV, and I worked at Showtime for many years.
01:18:40 --> 01:18:43 But then like many many people out
01:18:43 --> 01:18:46 there something remarkable happened to me it became
01:18:46 --> 01:18:49 a parent and fit my name
01:18:49 --> 01:18:52 joan and and i actually
01:18:52 --> 01:18:56 believe that the moment you become a parent you actually become an advocate
01:18:56 --> 01:19:01 advocating for them every step of the way and i think this was especially true
01:19:01 --> 01:19:07 for same-sex couples and was especially true in a pre-marriage equality world
01:19:07 --> 01:19:10 you want to do what you can to ensure the world treats your kids well.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:17 And without marriage equality, our kids were not legally connected to me.
01:19:18 --> 01:19:22 Because although we planned our kids together, my wife did all the birthing,
01:19:22 --> 01:19:24 I did all the catching. I got the easier job.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:31 But I was a legal stranger. And so as a result, we filed, you know,
01:19:31 --> 01:19:33 they say the personal is political.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:42 I filed a personal lawsuit and won a case to become the first woman in the state
01:19:42 --> 01:19:45 of New Jersey to legally adopt my partner's biological kids.
01:19:45 --> 01:19:50 Or as I like to say, to adopt my own children.
01:19:50 --> 01:19:55 And our kids became the first kids in the state of New Jersey to legally have
01:19:55 --> 01:19:56 two moms, whether they liked it or not.
01:19:58 --> 01:20:05 And this was a, maybe call it a cliched, pivotal moment that one person can make a difference.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:13 I saw it on the headlines of the New York Times and the Bergen Record and all these newspapers.
01:20:13 --> 01:20:16 And here I was thinking I had done something to protect my family.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:20 When, in fact, what I had done was thrown a pebble in the pond that was going
01:20:20 --> 01:20:23 to make it possible for many, many families to be protected.
01:20:24 --> 01:20:32 And it really was a kind of catalyst or kindling for me to ignite my interest
01:20:32 --> 01:20:37 in crossing the bridge from the for-profit sector to the non-profit sector.
01:20:37 --> 01:20:44 And because GLAAD is an organization that works with and through the media to
01:20:44 --> 01:20:48 tell the lives of LGBT families fairly and accurately,
01:20:48 --> 01:20:52 I felt like from the private sector, I brought some really interesting expertise
01:20:52 --> 01:20:58 and I got the opportunity to be what I like to refer to as a professional a lesbian.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:06 Well, I, you know, when you said that about becoming a parent,
01:21:06 --> 01:21:11 I think it was a little different for me. I was always an activist.
01:21:11 --> 01:21:15 Well, I was always an activist and then I became elected.
01:21:16 --> 01:21:20 So, so once, once I, I became a parent.
01:21:21 --> 01:21:25 Once I was elected. I mean, well, that's not exactly true.
01:21:25 --> 01:21:31 I was, I had, I inherited two boys through the marriage, but it was like to
01:21:31 --> 01:21:35 have my own biological child. That was when I was elected.
01:21:35 --> 01:21:42 And so I think what it did do though, was it made it more real. Right.
01:21:42 --> 01:21:46 And it's like, you know, so when I said I'm fighting for our children,
01:21:46 --> 01:21:51 it was like, oh yeah, yeah, I've got you. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are. Yeah.
01:21:51 --> 01:21:56 So, I mean, I think, but I get what you're saying, because a lot of people,
01:21:56 --> 01:21:58 you know, have that experience.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:02 It's like life hits them real when it's like there's another generation.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:05 As one comedian likes to say, I've created another person.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:11 And so now I've got to take things a little different. I also think,
01:22:11 --> 01:22:17 too, real quick that, you know, when I was at Showtime, we launched a pay-per-view business there.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:21 And during the end of my tenure there,
01:22:21 --> 01:22:27 I was managing the joint venture between Showtime and Don King Productions and
01:22:27 --> 01:22:33 spent far too much time at the MGM Grand Hotel in Las Vegas watching fights,
01:22:33 --> 01:22:34 which was kind of like not my jam.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:38 And there also comes a point in your own career where you think to yourself,
01:22:39 --> 01:22:44 I have really interesting skills and expertise, and I really could put them to better use.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:48 And so I think it was those things melding together.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 Yeah, I got you. Why are nonprofits messy?
01:22:53 --> 01:22:56 So that is the name of my podcast, Nonprofits are Messy.
01:22:57 --> 01:23:03 And I don't mean it as a pejorative. What I mean is that when I came into the
01:23:03 --> 01:23:05 field, I was an executive director.
01:23:05 --> 01:23:10 I was supposedly in charge. I reported to a board.
01:23:10 --> 01:23:14 So I reported to a bunch of volunteers who had never, most of whom had never had my job, right?
01:23:15 --> 01:23:18 In corporate America, you usually get promoted and you have the job your boss
01:23:18 --> 01:23:22 had or something like that, right? So I'm reporting to a bunch of volunteers.
01:23:23 --> 01:23:30 I am beholden to a vast number of stakeholders in a very different way.
01:23:30 --> 01:23:33 And I don't think of it as hierarchical.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:36 I think of it as the sort of the power coming from all around you,
01:23:36 --> 01:23:41 from your board, your volunteers, your donors, your staff, and that you are
01:23:41 --> 01:23:44 sort of the conductor, the centerpiece.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:52 And because of all of those different voices, it gets particularly messy when,
01:23:52 --> 01:23:58 Because you actually have to honor those voices because they are interested stakeholders.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:03 And you know this, some of this as an elected, you have to honor these while
01:24:03 --> 01:24:13 also being true to the sort of clear compass and direction that your mission sets you on.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:20 And so you have to be sort of really true to that while incorporating the voices
01:24:20 --> 01:24:25 and feelings and opinions of the folks you represent,
01:24:25 --> 01:24:31 the folks who have invested in your organization, and the people who provide
01:24:31 --> 01:24:34 oversight to your organization who usually have day jobs.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:41 Right. No, it's a very odd model, but I will just say that I think that there
01:24:41 --> 01:24:48 are treasures in that mess if you are a good facilitator conductor and you can
01:24:48 --> 01:24:52 really find them and decisions can be richer for the result.
01:24:53 --> 01:24:58 Well, as someone who has been a chairman of a board, a nonprofit board,
01:24:58 --> 01:25:04 and as an executive director of a nonprofit, I can relate on both sides of what you're saying.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:11 And, you know, coming in and saying, OK, well, we want to do this and anybody got ideas.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:15 And, you know, and then as executive director, it's like, I got to walk these
01:25:15 --> 01:25:16 people through all this stuff.
01:25:16 --> 01:25:19 OK, let's see if they can catch on and all that stuff.
01:25:19 --> 01:25:23 And a lot of times you get frustrated as if you're on the ED side,
01:25:23 --> 01:25:27 because it's like, but they're not catching the vision and all that stuff.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:32 And it's like, okay, well, if this is what they want, then we got to do it that way.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:38 And then as a chair, you're trying to hurt all the cats in, including the executive
01:25:38 --> 01:25:41 director to make sure that everybody's got the same vision.
01:25:41 --> 01:25:46 So I relate when, when I saw that that was the name of your podcast,
01:25:46 --> 01:25:50 I totally related right away. I didn't even have to listen to any of it.
01:25:50 --> 01:25:52 I knew exactly where you were going with that.
01:25:53 --> 01:25:57 All right. So if you had to give a State of the Union type address concerning
01:25:57 --> 01:26:02 nonprofits in the United States, what would that sound like?
01:26:03 --> 01:26:08 Oh, my gosh. That is like the best question I have ever been asked. Yes.
01:26:09 --> 01:26:13 And you provided that to me ahead of time, and I really appreciate it because
01:26:13 --> 01:26:15 I wouldn't have wanted to answer it on the fly.
01:26:17 --> 01:26:20 So I think it would go something along these lines.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:27 Erik, I want you to imagine taking a stroll through your town or your city and
01:26:27 --> 01:26:29 imagine it without a museum or a chorus.
01:26:31 --> 01:26:37 Why? Synagogue, a hospital, college, a food pantry, an animal rescue organization
01:26:37 --> 01:26:40 or a chamber of commerce. And you could just add to that list.
01:26:40 --> 01:26:42 It would be really hard to imagine.
01:26:43 --> 01:26:50 And it is these vital organizations that, in my mind, turn towns into communities,
01:26:51 --> 01:26:53 that turn residents into neighbors.
01:26:53 --> 01:27:00 And I see the nonprofit sector as an engine of hope and an engine that drives our common humanity.
01:27:01 --> 01:27:05 1.9 million of these organizations are here in the United States alone,
01:27:05 --> 01:27:11 and well over 60 million people engage with nonprofits every single year.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:14 It's a huge driver of our economy and our workforce.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:20 Nonprofits contribute a million four to the economy, and it is the third largest
01:27:20 --> 01:27:23 driver of our workforce behind retail food and service.
01:27:24 --> 01:27:29 So 12.7 million people work in nonprofit sector every year.
01:27:29 --> 01:27:35 And I believe that precious few people know those statistics or think of the
01:27:35 --> 01:27:39 nonprofit sector in this way. I think it flies under the radar.
01:27:39 --> 01:27:43 It's taken for granted. And in this moment that we are in,
01:27:44 --> 01:27:54 that is very risky indeed So I think that we have a sector that is pointing
01:27:54 --> 01:27:56 us in the direction of a civil society.
01:27:57 --> 01:28:03 So, based on what you just said and the importance of nonprofits,
01:28:03 --> 01:28:09 what has been the immediate impact of budgets and policy decisions made by the
01:28:09 --> 01:28:12 Trump administration concerning nonprofits?
01:28:12 --> 01:28:18 So, I would look at both the sort of tactical and the intangible.
01:28:18 --> 01:28:26 So, the Trump administration has targeted the nonprofit sector in a way that makes my head spin.
01:28:26 --> 01:28:30 Abuse of tax-exempt status, targeting
01:28:30 --> 01:28:34 advocacy groups he believes are not aligned with his own positions.
01:28:35 --> 01:28:39 There are non-profits reeling from catastrophic loss of federal funding,
01:28:39 --> 01:28:47 and the kind of impact that these cuts have had, I believe,
01:28:48 --> 01:28:54 are impacting lives, right? You think about USAID.
01:28:54 --> 01:29:02 You think about so many places where federal funding has been taken away,
01:29:02 --> 01:29:05 and I think that real people will die on his watch.
01:29:05 --> 01:29:10 The intangible is fear that advocacy organizations,
01:29:11 --> 01:29:17 whether particularly organizations that advocate for marginalized communities,
01:29:17 --> 01:29:20 right people of color immigrants the
01:29:20 --> 01:29:24 unhoused lgbt folks they are
01:29:24 --> 01:29:28 living in a new world where they are in the crosshairs and
01:29:28 --> 01:29:31 like many of these organizations Erik have
01:29:31 --> 01:29:37 sadly backed off visible commitments to diversity and in what i have found particularly
01:29:37 --> 01:29:41 terrifying many have removed their staff and board members names from their
01:29:41 --> 01:29:49 websites for one simple reason which is personal safety and when you think about
01:29:49 --> 01:29:51 what i just said in my state of the union address.
01:29:52 --> 01:29:56 Right and you think about this not only
01:29:56 --> 01:29:59 does it not make any sense but it
01:29:59 --> 01:30:04 is sucking the humanity out of the world we live in he the the work that's being
01:30:04 --> 01:30:13 done risks risks so many of what many of the things that make us human and pits
01:30:13 --> 01:30:16 us against each other, gives us, gives us a,
01:30:17 --> 01:30:20 makes us, causes us to live in some real fear.
01:30:21 --> 01:30:26 And we are not having the ability to help our neighbors the way the nonprofit
01:30:26 --> 01:30:29 sector was built to do. Yeah.
01:30:30 --> 01:30:33 And you touched on one of the things, you know, cause they're talking about
01:30:33 --> 01:30:38 like in the tax code about changing the definition of the exempt status.
01:30:39 --> 01:30:45 You know, weaponizing the IRS actually to go after nonprofits and all that kind
01:30:45 --> 01:30:47 of stuff. I think that that,
01:30:48 --> 01:30:52 you know, you know, in the overall scheme of what he's doing,
01:30:52 --> 01:30:56 what Stephen Miller and all these other guys are trying to do is,
01:30:56 --> 01:30:58 is to try to centralize power.
01:30:59 --> 01:31:04 And I think to target nonprofits, you know, the ones that you don't like,
01:31:04 --> 01:31:09 because, you know, there's nonprofits out there that support what the president's doing.
01:31:10 --> 01:31:17 And, and, you know, but the, the, the overall impact of all of that stuff is going to,
01:31:17 --> 01:31:22 to all the numbers that you just stated, I just think that that meddling with
01:31:22 --> 01:31:27 the tax code, if you want to meddle with the tax code from a politician's perspective,
01:31:27 --> 01:31:31 I say, let's get rid of the exemptions for wealthy people.
01:31:31 --> 01:31:33 Let's simplify the language.
01:31:33 --> 01:31:41 Let's have one form that everybody can fill out instead of 18 different ones, stuff like that.
01:31:41 --> 01:31:43 But when you're messing with people who are trying to fulfill,
01:31:44 --> 01:31:50 as you say, in your faith tradition, in my faith tradition, to help others and
01:31:50 --> 01:31:54 to repair the world, I think those are the folks that you need to not mess with.
01:31:54 --> 01:31:57 I think those are the folks you need to protect. Yeah.
01:31:58 --> 01:32:04 And it's no question that, you know, when I work, I'm an executive coach for CEOs.
01:32:04 --> 01:32:10 I also run a membership site for board and staff leaders of small nonprofits,
01:32:10 --> 01:32:16 a million dollars or less, and about 70% of nonprofits have budgets under a million bucks. Right.
01:32:16 --> 01:32:21 And so they're small and they're going to get they're going to get all wound
01:32:21 --> 01:32:24 up in the IRS coming after them for audits.
01:32:25 --> 01:32:29 And it's going to take them off their game. What what's what's the object of
01:32:29 --> 01:32:31 the game? The object of the game is to help people.
01:32:31 --> 01:32:35 And if they're all wound up and doing audits and, you know, small organizations
01:32:35 --> 01:32:39 are not always staffed well to get.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:43 To be neat and tidy and shiny. They're a little messy, you know?
01:32:44 --> 01:32:48 And I just think it's just going to divert them from the tasks at hand.
01:32:48 --> 01:32:53 Yeah. Yeah. The 990 forms are hard enough as they is. You don't need to add any more drama to it.
01:32:56 --> 01:33:00 What are the challenges facing nonprofits post-COVID?
01:33:00 --> 01:33:04 Another really interesting question, because I think that Michael Hyatt has
01:33:04 --> 01:33:08 this saying that says you have to look at what challenging times make possible.
01:33:09 --> 01:33:18 And I think that during COVID, nonprofits were, they were compelled to abandon business as usual.
01:33:18 --> 01:33:22 And frankly, business as usual wasn't everything. It was cracked up to be.
01:33:22 --> 01:33:28 So many, so many clients who were disproportionately reliant on gala revenue
01:33:28 --> 01:33:29 when it went out the window, right?
01:33:29 --> 01:33:35 And they had to try different things. They had to take some chances, pilot some new things.
01:33:36 --> 01:33:39 And I think that ultimately, I think that was very good for the sector and for
01:33:39 --> 01:33:41 staff leaders to be thinking that way.
01:33:42 --> 01:33:49 I had hoped that it would stick after COVID and that we'd see more of that stay there.
01:33:49 --> 01:33:53 I think that boards of directors tend to be risk averse and they wanted to go
01:33:53 --> 01:33:57 back to business as usual. And I think that that has hampered us as we have
01:33:57 --> 01:34:02 moved into this new administration because we need to continue to do that.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:07 I think that the sector needs to be innovative, needs to try new things,
01:34:08 --> 01:34:15 and that boards need to think of their jobs as more expansive and not just as
01:34:15 --> 01:34:17 a group of people to make sure that nothing goes wrong.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:23 Because by the way, on January 20th of this year, a lot of things went wrong.
01:34:23 --> 01:34:26 And it was out of the board's hands and out of the staff's hands.
01:34:27 --> 01:34:33 And it's what you do in these moments of adversity that demonstrate real leadership.
01:34:33 --> 01:34:41 And I think we should be looking at, organizations should be looking at scenario planning.
01:34:41 --> 01:34:43 They should be looking at diversifying their revenue streams.
01:34:44 --> 01:34:47 They should be, all of the things they should have been doing all along.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:51 They should be looking at their programs And saying should I do a couple fewer
01:34:51 --> 01:34:58 programs But do them deeper Should I merge with another organization Should
01:34:58 --> 01:35:02 I become a program of another organization Would it make sense for us to.
01:35:03 --> 01:35:07 Acquire this organization I think we can honestly Do,
01:35:08 --> 01:35:12 This is a really dark time. But as what Eleanor Roosevelt says,
01:35:13 --> 01:35:16 I'd rather light one candle than curse the darkness.
01:35:16 --> 01:35:21 And I think there's some opportunity here for the, as I did with COVID for the
01:35:21 --> 01:35:26 nonprofit sector to, to strengthen itself as a result of this adversity.
01:35:26 --> 01:35:30 Let me ask you this question. This is kind of off, off of the cuff real quick,
01:35:30 --> 01:35:35 but we were talking about diversifying a lot of, a lot of the nonprofits when
01:35:35 --> 01:35:38 they work and try to get grants and stuff,
01:35:38 --> 01:35:42 You know, we're always told, well, you need to have some board members that's
01:35:42 --> 01:35:43 that's writing, you know,
01:35:43 --> 01:35:46 individually writing checks and all that stuff.
01:35:46 --> 01:35:49 Yeah. And some of the nonprofits that you talked about that you work with that
01:35:49 --> 01:35:53 are a million dollars or less, they don't really have those kind of people.
01:35:53 --> 01:35:59 They have people that really want to do the work and really feel a need for that to happen.
01:35:59 --> 01:36:03 But they're not necessarily people that could write big checks.
01:36:03 --> 01:36:06 It's like you can get one or two on the board. That's great.
01:36:06 --> 01:36:11 But most of the time you can't. So how do you how do you navigate with folks
01:36:11 --> 01:36:14 that have that dilemma that is like, well, we got to get some people to write
01:36:14 --> 01:36:15 checks so we can get grant?
01:36:16 --> 01:36:22 Well, I I don't know that that's what funders are what they're looking for.
01:36:22 --> 01:36:24 They're looking for so i don't
01:36:24 --> 01:36:27 want to speak for all foundations but i have
01:36:27 --> 01:36:31 a philosophy about about boards and fundraising which
01:36:31 --> 01:36:34 is that i actually i actually think of board
01:36:34 --> 01:36:38 members as the most credible storytellers
01:36:38 --> 01:36:44 in your organization and that we do not do enough of building a culture of storytelling
01:36:44 --> 01:36:50 in our organization so that you Erik as a board member are as credible a messenger
01:36:50 --> 01:36:56 in telling a really amazing story about the work of the organization I run as I am.
01:36:57 --> 01:37:04 And that your job as a board member is to be armed with a couple of really great
01:37:04 --> 01:37:10 stories and to invite as many people to come closer to the work as possible.
01:37:10 --> 01:37:16 Now, whether you close the deal, whether you give the dollars or whether I do, it doesn't matter.
01:37:16 --> 01:37:20 I think what we're trying to do is build sort of a, if you will,
01:37:21 --> 01:37:23 sort of an army of the engaged.
01:37:23 --> 01:37:28 The more people who know about your organization, the more people who come closer,
01:37:28 --> 01:37:31 the more money you're going to raise. I mean, think about volunteers.
01:37:32 --> 01:37:36 Volunteers are the bottom of that fundraising pyramid. They are disproportionately
01:37:36 --> 01:37:41 likely to give money than almost any other group within a nonprofit organization.
01:37:42 --> 01:37:47 So I think I would rather be able to go to a funder and say that I,
01:37:47 --> 01:37:51 as a staff leader, had started a stewardship program and that everybody on my
01:37:51 --> 01:37:57 board was to cultivate a relationship with three prospective or current donors.
01:37:58 --> 01:38:02 And at the end of the year, because of that relationship, they either renewed
01:38:02 --> 01:38:03 or upgraded those donors.
01:38:04 --> 01:38:07 So it's not just about whether you can give. And in fact, I don't think it's
01:38:07 --> 01:38:09 always about how much you give.
01:38:10 --> 01:38:13 It's about how vocal and visible an ambassador are you?
01:38:14 --> 01:38:19 How much of a relationship builder are you? And can bring lots more people closer
01:38:19 --> 01:38:23 to the organization. And I'd rather be measured by that as a board of directors
01:38:23 --> 01:38:27 than whether or not I have six or seven people who can write big fat checks.
01:38:27 --> 01:38:34 Because if I have that, I am probably lacking in community leaders,
01:38:35 --> 01:38:40 people with lived experience in the field, an academic, a PR person,
01:38:40 --> 01:38:42 a digital marketing person, right?
01:38:42 --> 01:38:47 If I gauge who should be on my board simply by who can write a big fat check,
01:38:47 --> 01:38:49 I think I'm in trouble. Yeah.
01:38:50 --> 01:38:54 So one guest kind of started this tradition and I've been keeping it going.
01:38:54 --> 01:38:57 And that's when somebody makes a point that's really strong.
01:38:57 --> 01:39:00 I usually say, say that louder so the people in the back can hear it. Right.
01:39:01 --> 01:39:04 I think that I think that's one of those points that you just made.
01:39:05 --> 01:39:10 Yeah. I mean, yeah. Is there a segment of the American population or a particular
01:39:10 --> 01:39:14 issue that you would like to see more nonprofit activity occur in?
01:39:15 --> 01:39:19 Well, I don't know if I want to see more activity,
01:39:19 --> 01:39:26 but I feel like those issues that
01:39:26 --> 01:39:31 have been targeted by our current administration need all hands on deck.
01:39:31 --> 01:39:36 And I think that they are in a place where they're going to be vulnerable and struggling.
01:39:36 --> 01:39:44 And so I would like to see more people engage as volunteers and donors,
01:39:45 --> 01:39:49 particularly in advocacy organizations for marginalized communities.
01:39:49 --> 01:39:54 Because, you know, as I will not surprise you, I don't think,
01:39:54 --> 01:39:58 Erik, you know, if I am an organization that is advocating for immigrants,
01:39:59 --> 01:40:04 my staff is probably has quite a number of people who have that lived experience.
01:40:04 --> 01:40:07 That means there's a lot of trauma on my staff
01:40:07 --> 01:40:11 and that there's a lot of just trauma
01:40:11 --> 01:40:14 in the organization writ large and so i think i
01:40:14 --> 01:40:19 would like to see a deeper investment in in those organizations that are going
01:40:19 --> 01:40:25 to be most most in the crosshairs and we all and i think we could probably list
01:40:25 --> 01:40:32 them right now but i would say those that are really advocating for marginalized communities.
01:40:32 --> 01:40:38 Whether that's an advocacy organization or, you know, I had a client who works
01:40:38 --> 01:40:42 at the intersection of the disability community, the deaf community,
01:40:42 --> 01:40:43 and the criminal justice community.
01:40:44 --> 01:40:47 She lost 70% of her funding overnight, right?
01:40:48 --> 01:40:54 These folks, we need to be out there working for them and with them to make
01:40:54 --> 01:40:55 sure they can continue to do
01:40:55 --> 01:40:59 their work and that we don't risk actually losing them altogether. Yeah.
01:41:00 --> 01:41:04 All right. So let me close out with this question. Go. What advice would you
01:41:04 --> 01:41:09 give someone who wants to start a nonprofit organization in this moment in time?
01:41:10 --> 01:41:16 I think the advice that I would give them is not drastically different from
01:41:16 --> 01:41:19 advice I might have given them five years ago.
01:41:19 --> 01:41:25 And I think the first thing I would say is that if you want to start a nonprofit,
01:41:25 --> 01:41:26 you need to do your homework.
01:41:27 --> 01:41:32 Just because you have a good idea doesn't mean it should become an organization.
01:41:32 --> 01:41:38 Is the work being done elsewhere? Could your idea be a program at an existing organization?
01:41:38 --> 01:41:46 You know, there might be 1.9 million nonprofits, but maybe there's duplication
01:41:46 --> 01:41:50 we could really be avoiding, and therefore less money going towards overhead
01:41:50 --> 01:41:52 for multiple organizations,
01:41:53 --> 01:41:57 deeper overhead investment in fewer organizations and in programs.
01:41:57 --> 01:42:04 The second piece of advice I would give is what I would say build a very passionate posse of people.
01:42:04 --> 01:42:09 One of the biggest problems I see with founders who start nonprofits is they
01:42:09 --> 01:42:15 get their brother, sister, next-door neighbor to be one of the three names on
01:42:15 --> 01:42:17 the 501c3 app as their board.
01:42:17 --> 01:42:20 And they end up staying on their board.
01:42:21 --> 01:42:27 And I would say, before you fill out that 501c3 app, pull together a really
01:42:27 --> 01:42:32 interesting, diverse group of people with both skills and lived experience,
01:42:32 --> 01:42:34 and brainstorm and plan.
01:42:35 --> 01:42:40 Fine-tune this mission and the work that you will do that will make it unique
01:42:40 --> 01:42:43 and distinctive, and then fill out your 501c3 app.
01:42:43 --> 01:42:46 Don't start that after you get the status.
01:42:46 --> 01:42:52 And then the third one I would say, and I used to say it all the time is fasten
01:42:52 --> 01:42:56 your seatbelt now I would say fasten your seatbelt a lot tighter.
01:42:57 --> 01:43:02 Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's, this is, we're in interesting times.
01:43:03 --> 01:43:10 And so, but, you know, a lot of what you just said has been a practical approach
01:43:10 --> 01:43:13 for many years in dealing with this work.
01:43:13 --> 01:43:21 So, Joan Gary, I'm really, really glad that you have brought this passion to
01:43:21 --> 01:43:27 the nonprofit sector to be a coach, to be a guide for folks to succeed in it.
01:43:28 --> 01:43:32 I'm glad, too. I get as much as I give, Eric.
01:43:33 --> 01:43:38 Well, and that's good to know. I was telling somebody that I was going to have
01:43:38 --> 01:43:41 you on the show, and they were, like, really, really excited.
01:43:42 --> 01:43:47 Oh, good. Can I get their name and address? Yeah, yeah. I'll get it to you. I'll get it to you.
01:43:48 --> 01:43:52 But, you know, they said they'd seen you speak before. They hadn't formally
01:43:52 --> 01:43:55 met you, but they were really, really excited.
01:43:55 --> 01:43:58 And so I understand why.
01:43:58 --> 01:44:01 So I greatly appreciate you taking the time.
01:44:01 --> 01:44:05 How can people get in touch with you? How can people get in touch with the organization?
01:44:06 --> 01:44:11 Oh, thank you. So pretty much all things Joan at joangarry.com.
01:44:11 --> 01:44:20 And it's G-A-R-R-Y.com and our membership site, which is 6 strong board
01:44:20 --> 01:44:22 and staff leaders from around the world.
01:44:22 --> 01:44:28 And getting content as well as moral support and community, you can find at
01:44:28 --> 01:44:31 nonprofitleadershiplab.com.
01:44:31 --> 01:44:35 All right. Well, Joan, thank you so much for coming on again.
01:44:35 --> 01:44:38 And I greatly appreciate your time.
01:44:38 --> 01:44:43 My pleasure. And thank you for asking me and bringing some really interesting
01:44:43 --> 01:44:46 voices into the ether. Yes, ma'am.
01:44:47 --> 01:44:49 All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:44:51 --> 01:45:02 Music.
01:45:01 --> 01:45:06 All right, and we are back. So I want to thank Mikel Bolden,
01:45:06 --> 01:45:11 Renee Williams, and Joan Garry for coming on the show.
01:45:12 --> 01:45:18 Like I always say, man, I know y'all probably think it's cliche and I'm just
01:45:18 --> 01:45:22 being deferential and all that stuff,
01:45:22 --> 01:45:30 but you just don't know the joy I have in being able to talk to these incredible
01:45:30 --> 01:45:33 human beings that are out here doing the work.
01:45:34 --> 01:45:41 And to get to converse with them a little bit, either prior to the interview
01:45:41 --> 01:45:42 or afterwards or whatever,
01:45:42 --> 01:45:49 and no matter how dynamic they are, how humble these people really are, right?
01:45:50 --> 01:45:56 And that's one of the attributes that we are so lacking.
01:45:57 --> 01:46:04 Right. In our current political discourse is the humility is understanding the
01:46:04 --> 01:46:06 gravity of what's being done.
01:46:07 --> 01:46:12 But don't, you know, let the moment get too big where they're,
01:46:12 --> 01:46:18 you know, where they allow their confidence and their their skill set to shine and still do the work.
01:46:19 --> 01:46:22 But, you know, these are not flashy people.
01:46:23 --> 01:46:27 These are not people trying to be the loudest person in the room.
01:46:27 --> 01:46:30 But they do what needs to be done.
01:46:31 --> 01:46:34 And so I just want to thank those ladies for coming on again.
01:46:35 --> 01:46:40 And we ask, you know, always I ask that people support the work that they're
01:46:40 --> 01:46:49 doing and get involved, whether it's politically, you know, financially or through volunteers, right?
01:46:49 --> 01:46:52 Just get engaged, get involved, right?
01:46:52 --> 01:46:57 So again, thank you all ladies for coming on. Now, I want to finish a thought
01:46:57 --> 01:47:01 that I was kind of going into, I guess.
01:47:03 --> 01:47:08 Last week, I was talking about something, and then I started reading a little bit.
01:47:09 --> 01:47:12 And I said, well, no, maybe I'm not going to go in that direction.
01:47:13 --> 01:47:19 It's not exactly the message I want to give. But I do want to say this real quick.
01:47:21 --> 01:47:26 And for those folks who, you know, they're like, well, you know,
01:47:26 --> 01:47:30 Erik, you come from a certain political bent, so naturally you're going to have
01:47:30 --> 01:47:32 this kind of take and all that.
01:47:33 --> 01:47:42 And there's some truth in that, right? But I think it is fair to say that where
01:47:42 --> 01:47:51 we are right now is that we are trying to navigate around insanity.
01:47:51 --> 01:47:57 And there are some people who are trying to normalize insanity.
01:47:58 --> 01:48:05 And when I say insanity, I'm not necessarily talking about clinical because I'm not a psychologist.
01:48:06 --> 01:48:10 Right? I let my good friends like Renee Carr and others do that.
01:48:11 --> 01:48:16 Mary Trump, all those folks. I let them do the psychological stuff.
01:48:16 --> 01:48:19 I'm just a common sense kind of person.
01:48:20 --> 01:48:25 And I think in this day and age, with all that we're exposed to,
01:48:25 --> 01:48:26 how we're all connected.
01:48:27 --> 01:48:32 Right? We just celebrated yet another new iPhone coming out. Right?
01:48:33 --> 01:48:39 Where you can shoot movies and you can talk to people all over the globe and
01:48:39 --> 01:48:44 you can download the internet and record speeds and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like going...
01:48:46 --> 01:48:50 We have all this technology. We have all these ways of interacting.
01:48:50 --> 01:48:53 Our cultures are so intermatched.
01:48:53 --> 01:49:01 So when I say insanity, it's like to be racist in America is insane, right?
01:49:02 --> 01:49:13 And, you know, I can't force people to be around me or I can't force people to be around me.
01:49:14 --> 01:49:21 Meaning, you know, you can't tell me I got to be in this setting or you got
01:49:21 --> 01:49:24 to accept me in this setting, right?
01:49:24 --> 01:49:30 I understand there's nuanced things where the culture kind of kicks in.
01:49:30 --> 01:49:39 But to try to build a political party in this day and age based on keeping everything
01:49:39 --> 01:49:47 separate and this false notion that one particular race is greater than every other race,
01:49:47 --> 01:49:54 and then to deny the contributions of all of the cultures that exist in the
01:49:54 --> 01:49:59 United States and just say that one culture did it all.
01:49:59 --> 01:50:05 You know, in layman's terms, you can say that's ignorant, but ignorance for
01:50:05 --> 01:50:07 no reason is insanity, right?
01:50:07 --> 01:50:12 Because there's no reason for you to not know about the contributions of black folks.
01:50:12 --> 01:50:17 There's no reason not to know the contributions of Asian Americans.
01:50:18 --> 01:50:24 There's no reason not to know the contributions of Hispanic Americans, right?
01:50:24 --> 01:50:28 None. Native Americans, the indigenous people, none.
01:50:28 --> 01:50:32 There's no reason why you can't have access to that information now,
01:50:32 --> 01:50:40 other than certain folks want to limit your access.
01:50:41 --> 01:50:48 So you want to accept trophies from somebody who's created a device and upgraded
01:50:48 --> 01:50:51 a device that the whole world can connect to.
01:50:51 --> 01:50:55 But you want to limit what information they can get on that device.
01:50:57 --> 01:51:04 That's insanity. And to use your political capital to do that, right?
01:51:04 --> 01:51:10 I just don't understand why you would do that.
01:51:10 --> 01:51:16 I don't understand what the advantage is, and I don't understand why so many
01:51:16 --> 01:51:18 Americans believe that's okay.
01:51:19 --> 01:51:26 And when I say so many, you know, I know that not everybody that voted for our
01:51:26 --> 01:51:28 current president thinks that way.
01:51:29 --> 01:51:35 But enough of y'all do. And that's too many. You know, it's like you have enough
01:51:35 --> 01:51:38 of a subculture where you can have your own networks.
01:51:38 --> 01:51:41 You can have your own podcasts. You can have your own.
01:51:44 --> 01:51:52 Movies and songs. By the way, there's literally a song about lynching people that's out.
01:51:53 --> 01:51:57 And a couple of songs about sundown towns and all that kind of stuff,
01:51:57 --> 01:51:59 right? That's too many people.
01:52:00 --> 01:52:10 It's too many. And our challenge in being optimistic but being pragmatic about
01:52:10 --> 01:52:14 it is to navigate around that, right?
01:52:14 --> 01:52:21 But we have an obligation to make sure that people understand that that is not normal.
01:52:21 --> 01:52:28 There is no way in any shape or form that that is normal.
01:52:28 --> 01:52:32 And it doesn't matter how many threats,
01:52:32 --> 01:52:39 what kind of political power is exerted, no matter how many fiery speeches and
01:52:39 --> 01:52:44 memorial services are given, the way these folks think is not normal.
01:52:44 --> 01:52:47 It's not healthy. It's not productive.
01:52:48 --> 01:52:55 But right now, they control the House, the Senate, the White House,
01:52:55 --> 01:52:59 and basically the Supreme Court. at the federal level.
01:53:00 --> 01:53:02 So we just got to fight against that.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:09 And, you know, they want us to fight violently. They want us to get weapons
01:53:09 --> 01:53:13 and go out in the streets and tear up stuff and all that stuff so they can have
01:53:13 --> 01:53:15 an excuse to shut everything down.
01:53:16 --> 01:53:18 But we've proven that we're smarter than that.
01:53:19 --> 01:53:23 You know, so we're going to fight the way that we've been fighting,
01:53:23 --> 01:53:27 the way we were taught to fight nonviolently.
01:53:28 --> 01:53:32 We'll speak with our dollar bills. We'll speak with our voices.
01:53:32 --> 01:53:37 We'll speak with our writings and our podcasts.
01:53:39 --> 01:53:45 You know, just everything that we can do. Because the bottom line is we have to resist.
01:53:46 --> 01:53:51 We have to. We have no choice. Sane people have no choice but to resist what's happening.
01:53:51 --> 01:54:01 And for those who are not morally strong enough or intelligent enough or courageous
01:54:01 --> 01:54:06 enough not to be sheep in that insane flock.
01:54:08 --> 01:54:11 You know, we just have to work around those people.
01:54:11 --> 01:54:17 If we can save some, if we can convert some back to sanity, you know,
01:54:18 --> 01:54:21 bring them back to sanity, so be it. If we can.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:25 But a lot of those people are going to have to make that decision on their own.
01:54:27 --> 01:54:31 And we got to get out of this notion in America that, you know,
01:54:32 --> 01:54:37 instant is good or that instant is even realistic.
01:54:38 --> 01:54:38 Right?
01:54:40 --> 01:54:46 The damage that has been done in eight months is going to take years to fix, right?
01:54:47 --> 01:54:51 Let me say that again. The damage has been done in eight months.
01:54:51 --> 01:54:53 It's going to take years to fix.
01:54:53 --> 01:54:58 So whoever is brought in to replace this current government,
01:54:58 --> 01:55:01 you're going to have to have some patience with that.
01:55:01 --> 01:55:06 Now, there may be some instant things like prices might go down, Right.
01:55:06 --> 01:55:09 Wages may go up. Jobs may be plentiful.
01:55:10 --> 01:55:17 But as far as trust in institutions, as far as stability in government,
01:55:17 --> 01:55:20 as far as prioritizing budgets,
01:55:21 --> 01:55:27 it's going to take some time because you've got to really purge the insanity out.
01:55:29 --> 01:55:32 And I know a lot of people, especially of younger generations,
01:55:32 --> 01:55:35 when they hear purge, they think of the movie and they think,
01:55:35 --> 01:55:37 oh, we're about to kill people. No, no, that's not how we do that.
01:55:38 --> 01:55:44 But you've got to separate the wheat from the chaff. You've got to get the quality
01:55:44 --> 01:55:48 in so the insanity can come out. It's just that simple.
01:55:50 --> 01:55:59 And, you know, if we want this nation to thrive and all of us to be a part of it,
01:56:00 --> 01:56:06 then we've got to resist what's happening and we've got to continue to battle.
01:56:06 --> 01:56:11 Now, there are people who are contrarian, right?
01:56:12 --> 01:56:19 They'll come across to some of us as resistors, but they're always going to
01:56:19 --> 01:56:21 challenge authority regardless.
01:56:22 --> 01:56:28 Doesn't matter if authority is benevolent or if authority is malevolent,
01:56:29 --> 01:56:31 right? They're going to challenge it.
01:56:31 --> 01:56:35 So you have to be wary of those folks, right?
01:56:36 --> 01:56:41 Because that's how they make their bread. That's how they sustain themselves.
01:56:41 --> 01:56:47 That's how they define their relevance. They're just contrary to anybody that's in authority.
01:56:48 --> 01:56:54 If you want to live your life that way, that's fine. But you're not part of the resistance.
01:56:54 --> 01:57:00 See, the resistance is here to set up so that we can move the people out that
01:57:00 --> 01:57:07 are hurting us and put people in that will help us. So we want to respect authority.
01:57:07 --> 01:57:11 We want to respect people and promote people in leadership.
01:57:12 --> 01:57:17 We want to do that. We do not want to be in anarchy, but we also don't want
01:57:17 --> 01:57:21 to be under a strong-armed dictator, right?
01:57:21 --> 01:57:27 We want democracy, this democratic republic that, you know, was set up. We want that to work.
01:57:28 --> 01:57:34 And it seems like whenever it starts benefiting everybody, that's when this
01:57:34 --> 01:57:38 insane group shows up and says, no, this is just for white folks.
01:57:39 --> 01:57:44 Now, true, it was nothing but white folks in the room in a hot boarded up building
01:57:44 --> 01:57:45 called Independence Hall.
01:57:46 --> 01:57:51 Right. when they came up with their Declaration of Independence in 1776 and
01:57:51 --> 01:57:53 then in 1789, the Constitution.
01:57:55 --> 01:58:02 Nonetheless, over time, over these 249 years, everybody that falls under the
01:58:02 --> 01:58:07 category of citizen of the United States has all these benefits.
01:58:07 --> 01:58:11 And those people who are not citizens, who happen to be on American soil,
01:58:12 --> 01:58:15 actually have some benefits of their own, right?
01:58:16 --> 01:58:20 That some folks that are insane don't quite get.
01:58:21 --> 01:58:24 It's right there in black and white. You don't need somebody in a black robe.
01:58:24 --> 01:58:26 You can read that. It's right there.
01:58:28 --> 01:58:29 So, you know,
01:58:30 --> 01:58:36 want us to get to a point. And again, like I was telling some people last night,
01:58:36 --> 01:58:44 I don't want y'all to be a junkie or, you know, like me, but I just want you to be engaged.
01:58:44 --> 01:58:46 I just want you to pay attention to what's happening.
01:58:47 --> 01:58:53 And if you know that it's not right, fight against it in whatever way you want to.
01:58:54 --> 01:58:57 I haven't been to Target. Oh, my God.
01:58:59 --> 01:59:02 You know, it is a Target literally right around the corner from where I stay.
01:59:02 --> 01:59:05 It is real easy for me to run in and run out.
01:59:06 --> 01:59:11 But I've made my decision, right? Other people have made their decision about
01:59:11 --> 01:59:15 Disney subscriptions and whatever else, right?
01:59:15 --> 01:59:18 Do what you can. Do what you need to do.
01:59:18 --> 01:59:24 Do what you have the luxury to do, even, right? But fight.
01:59:24 --> 01:59:29 If your best way to fight is to contribute to people, do that.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:32 If your best way to fight is to volunteer, do that.
01:59:33 --> 01:59:41 If your best way to fight is to write on Substack or Medium or WordPress, knock yourself out.
01:59:42 --> 01:59:44 If you want to do a podcast, do a podcast.
01:59:45 --> 01:59:51 All I'm saying is fight. All I'm saying is resist.
01:59:51 --> 01:59:56 Because you know in your heart what you're seeing every day on the news.
01:59:56 --> 01:59:59 Some of you have gotten to the point you don't want to watch the news.
01:59:59 --> 02:00:04 But the thing that has upset you, the thing that has got you feeling some kind
02:00:04 --> 02:00:05 of way, you know it's not right.
02:00:06 --> 02:00:11 But what I want you to understand is that you have the power to challenge that.
02:00:12 --> 02:00:16 What they want you to do is think that they want you to be hopeless.
02:00:16 --> 02:00:19 They want you to feel that you're powerless. They want you to feel like they're
02:00:19 --> 02:00:21 inevitable. And they're not.
02:00:22 --> 02:00:26 They're not. At any moment, it could be over.
02:00:27 --> 02:00:34 And so what I need you to do is to be steadfast, to be immovable, to resist.
02:00:35 --> 02:00:41 And if you do that, and we get others to follow suit, then they'll understand.
02:00:42 --> 02:00:48 And either they will change their stripes, or they will be pushed aside.
02:00:50 --> 02:00:56 How that works. Because in order for us to live in a society that's cool,
02:00:57 --> 02:01:04 a society that's balanced, a society that's filled with opportunities,
02:01:05 --> 02:01:11 we got to get people out of the way that want to stop all that. It's just that simple.
02:01:12 --> 02:01:17 And the way we do that is through the electing process, through the judicial
02:01:17 --> 02:01:23 process, through civil disobedience, and education.
02:01:24 --> 02:01:28 Because the more educated you are, the more you can see what's happening and
02:01:28 --> 02:01:32 the more you realize this is crazy and you're just not going to tolerate it.
02:01:33 --> 02:01:37 A lot of you, even if you don't quite get all of the dynamics,
02:01:37 --> 02:01:39 you feel it in your soul. Something right.
02:01:40 --> 02:01:46 Young people who are not versed in political efficacy and all that. They feel it.
02:01:47 --> 02:01:53 And that's why they're doing all these other outlets, right? Or they want to escape.
02:01:54 --> 02:01:58 The one thing we don't want to take away from any human being,
02:01:58 --> 02:01:59 let alone young people, is hope.
02:02:01 --> 02:02:06 So let me close out by saying, guys, we can do this.
02:02:06 --> 02:02:13 We can get through this. And we will come out on the other side better than we were before.
02:02:14 --> 02:02:17 But we've got to commit to fight.
02:02:17 --> 02:02:23 We cannot submit. We cannot ask for us. We cannot surrender.
02:02:24 --> 02:02:29 We cannot do what Stephen A. Smith said. Just go along to get along.
02:02:29 --> 02:02:32 We can't do that. We can't.
02:02:33 --> 02:02:40 He wouldn't be in the spot he was in if black folks had that mindset 60 years ago.
02:02:40 --> 02:02:46 Wouldn't it happen? We are not in a position of comfort.
02:02:48 --> 02:02:52 Coretta Scott King basically told us we got to fight for freedom every day.
02:02:53 --> 02:02:59 So let's do that. If freedom is what you want, if sanity is what you're trying
02:02:59 --> 02:03:03 to, if order is what you want, fight for it.
02:03:04 --> 02:03:07 Thank you all for listening. Until next time.
02:03:09 --> 02:03:55 Music.