In this episode, celebrity fashion designer Tammy McCall Browning talks about her triumphant journey with mental illness and Dr. Chika Stacy Oriuwa, Resident Physician of Psychiatry at the University of Toronto, discusses her new memoir, Unlike The Rest: A Doctor’s Story.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Eric Fleming, host of A Moment with Eric Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NVG Podcast Network.
00:01:17 --> 00:01:56 Music.
00:01:29 --> 00:01:29 Thank you.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:10 Today is going to be a great show. I always say that because it is.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:14 It's always going to be a great show, whether it's just me talking or I have some guests.
00:02:15 --> 00:02:17 And I hope you agree with that, and that's why you're still listening.
00:02:19 --> 00:02:22 Today, I'm very, very honored to have two very special women.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:32 On the podcast, and I think that you will be inspired and encouraged by their stories.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:40 And so, you know, unlike some of the other stuff that's going on in the political
00:02:40 --> 00:02:45 world, you know, I hope that these two sisters, you know,
00:02:46 --> 00:02:49 give you some positivity to work through this week.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:56 So without any further ado, speaking about sisters, it's time for a moment of news with Grace G.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:05 Music.
00:03:05 --> 00:03:10 New York prosecutors have charged Luigi Mangione with murder for the killing
00:03:10 --> 00:03:14 of United Health Executive Brian Thompson following a five-day manhunt that
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 ended with his capture in Pennsylvania.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:21 Syrian rebels ousted President Bashar al-Assad after capturing Damascus,
00:03:22 --> 00:03:26 marking a significant shift in power following over a decade of civil war.
00:03:26 --> 00:03:31 FBI Director Chris Wray announced he will resign early next year after President-elect
00:03:31 --> 00:03:34 Trump indicated plans to fire him.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:38 A federal appeals court upheld a law requiring TikTok's parent company,
00:03:39 --> 00:03:42 ByteDance, to divest the app in the U.S. by early next year.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:48 A New York jury acquitted Daniel Penny in the 2023 death of Jordan Neely,
00:03:48 --> 00:03:51 finding him not guilty of criminally negligent homicide.
00:03:52 --> 00:03:56 South Korean President Yoon Suk-yeol avoided impeachment after a parliamentary
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 vote failed to meet the required threshold.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:04 A federal judge ruled that the U.S. Naval Academy can continue to use race in
00:04:04 --> 00:04:09 admissions, despite a Supreme Court decision banning similar policies at civilian colleges.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:15 A Connecticut appeals court confirmed a nearly $1.3 billion defamation verdict
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 against Alex Jones for his false claims about the Sandy Hook shooting.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:24 A U.S. bankruptcy judge blocked The Onion from buying Infowars,
00:04:24 --> 00:04:26 saying the auction bids were insufficient.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:30 Lara Trump announced her resignation as co-chair of the RNC,
00:04:30 --> 00:04:32 citing interest in a potential U.S.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 Senate vacancy if Marco Rubio is confirmed as Secretary of State.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:42 Romania's top court annulled the ongoing presidential election due to claims
00:04:42 --> 00:04:46 of Russian interference, causing a complete rerun of the electoral process.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:52 Former Ghanaian President John Dramani Mahama made a political comeback by winning
00:04:52 --> 00:04:56 the presidential election, defeating Vice President Mahamudu Boumia.
00:04:56 --> 00:05:03 And American poet, educator, and activist Nikki Giovanni passed away at the age of 81.
00:05:03 --> 00:05:07 I am Grace G, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:14 Music.
00:05:14 --> 00:05:18 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:24 And now it is time for my first guest, Tammy McCall Browning.
00:05:25 --> 00:05:32 Tammy McCall Browning is known by many from season eight of Real Housewives of Atlanta.
00:05:32 --> 00:05:38 In real life, she is a sustainable clothing designer who also is a modern ballet
00:05:38 --> 00:05:46 dancer, backstage manager for New Orleans Jazz Fest and has toured internationally with a rock band.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:53 Tammy lives with mental illness and has learned to embrace her illness and use it as a superpower.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:59 And it is in that capacity as an advocate and a spokesperson dealing with mental
00:05:59 --> 00:06:02 illness is why Miss Tammy is on the show.
00:06:03 --> 00:06:08 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:11 Tammy McCall Browning.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:23 Music.
00:06:22 --> 00:06:27 All right. Tammy McCall Browning. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 I am doing wonderful. How are you doing? I'm doing fine, sister.
00:06:31 --> 00:06:39 Look, it is an honor for me to have you on. I ran across your profile on LinkedIn and I said,
00:06:39 --> 00:06:46 I want this sister on the podcast because it's an issue that that you're a spokesperson about.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:51 And it's a personal thing for you dealing with mental illness.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:56 And it's something that I tried to address as as a member of the legislature
00:06:56 --> 00:07:03 when I was in Mississippi, because I noticed every year that they would always
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 cut the budget for the Department of Mental Health.
00:07:06 --> 00:07:11 And I just felt that that was going to be a problem down the road.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:18 And now 20 years later, I think it is. So anytime I have a chance to talk to
00:07:18 --> 00:07:23 somebody that is willing to discuss that issue,
00:07:23 --> 00:07:29 I want to give them an opportunity on the podcast and then somebody of your
00:07:29 --> 00:07:30 magnitude and celebrity.
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 I'm really, really honored to do that.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:39 But you are you are a celebrity. Whether you want to admit it or not,
00:07:39 --> 00:07:43 you are. But look, before we get started, this is what I usually do with the
00:07:43 --> 00:07:44 guests to kind of break the ice.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:52 So I throw a quote at the guest and let them respond. And then we go from there. So this is your quote.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 Blessed is she who falls.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:00 Blessed is she who rises again. What does that quote mean to you?
00:08:01 --> 00:08:03 That's my whole life right there.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:14 That to me it sounds exactly like my story in a nutshell in a two sentence nutshell that,
00:08:15 --> 00:08:22 Because I completely fell to the depths and, you know, rose again,
00:08:22 --> 00:08:28 you know, by the grace of God, I'm still here. I technically shouldn't be.
00:08:29 --> 00:08:35 Yeah. So let's get it started with what is my Millie?
00:08:37 --> 00:08:43 My Millie is, okay, so part of my, let me back up.
00:08:43 --> 00:08:46 I'm like, I'm about to, I'm trying to tell you 10 stories all at one time.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:48 I'm trying to talk to my brain to slow down.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:59 So growing up, I never had any kind of issues with depression or anything.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 I was always extremely energetic, outgoing.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:09 My parents always say, you know, 50 years ago, they weren't really talking about
00:09:09 --> 00:09:12 ADHD because if they were, that would have been you. They would have been trying
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 to put you on all the medications and all the, you know, whatever.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:20 But at the time, you know, I just was very, very hyperactive.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:24 And so they got me into ballet years before technically they were supposed to
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 take me because I was too young.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:31 But they were tired of me flipping and jumping and smashing all over the house.
00:09:32 --> 00:09:40 But I never, ever had any kind of depressive or depression signs growing up.
00:09:40 --> 00:09:50 It was not until my brother passed away in 2014 that that that lever got switched on.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 So the first year after he
00:09:54 --> 00:09:58 passed i did not know it but i was in a
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 manic episode that just happened to coincide
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 with the filming of real house lives
00:10:04 --> 00:10:07 so i do not remember 95
00:10:07 --> 00:10:12 percent of that year so a
00:10:12 --> 00:10:18 lot of things people send me clips of and I don't remember doing it but obviously
00:10:18 --> 00:10:22 there was a lot of cameras you know videotaping everything or you know recording
00:10:22 --> 00:10:28 everything so a year a year after he passed it switched into the depressive
00:10:28 --> 00:10:31 side so I spent three months.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:40 Googling how to kill myself and, and also at the same time, trying to support
00:10:40 --> 00:10:45 my, my parents and my other siblings and acting like, acting like everything was okay.
00:10:46 --> 00:10:52 And, you know, all the rational things that are totally irrational,
00:10:52 --> 00:10:57 like Googling painless ways to kill yourself, you know, how to make it through
00:10:57 --> 00:11:00 the holidays, you know, after the death of a loved one.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:03 And there's so many ridiculous things.
00:11:03 --> 00:11:07 You can't do this to your parents because they already lost one child.
00:11:08 --> 00:11:17 So three months of that until the day that I woke up January 1st of 2016 and did the do, did the deal.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:20 Woke up the next day in the psychiatric ward.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:30 And that began my new life of figuring out, okay, so now I have this diagnosis.
00:11:30 --> 00:11:35 I'm bipolar 1 and I have MDD, major depressive disorder.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:42 So that first week when I was hospitalized, I really wasn't upset.
00:11:42 --> 00:11:45 I was like, okay, I don't want to be in here. I want to get out of here.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:52 But at least now I know what is going on with me. So now, okay, this is what it is.
00:11:52 --> 00:11:57 All right, now we got a plan. We can make a plan and we can fix this. We can get it together.
00:11:58 --> 00:12:03 And unfortunately, it is not that easy that you just pop a pill and you're fixed.
00:12:04 --> 00:12:08 So it took about two and a half years, going on three years,
00:12:08 --> 00:12:14 and I ended up hospitalized two more times because we were trying all the different
00:12:14 --> 00:12:16 combinations of cocktails.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 Antipsychotics, antidepressants, mood stabilizers, antidepressants.
00:12:21 --> 00:12:27 I mean, there's so many things that they have now in this modern era of medicine,
00:12:27 --> 00:12:29 but nothing was working for me.
00:12:30 --> 00:12:34 And I was what they term treatment resistant.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:42 Long story short, after that third hospitalization, it was really kind of do or die.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:47 And I just ended up deciding, my husband and I decided, you know what,
00:12:47 --> 00:12:50 we're going to have to make this really drastic step.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:55 And I ended up having to get electric shock treatment.
00:12:56 --> 00:12:58 And I had to get 16 rounds of that.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:05 And a lot of people these days don't know that electric shock treatment isn't
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 some barbaric thing from the 1600s where they're trying to torture you.
00:13:09 --> 00:13:11 It is an actual medical procedure.
00:13:11 --> 00:13:21 But obviously, all other options have to be, you know, have to be tried before
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 you get to that drastic of a measure.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:28 But for me, it did save my life. I do still have to be on medication,
00:13:28 --> 00:13:29 of course, the rest of my life.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:37 But that really got me back in the world of living because I really was not there.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:46 So my Millie is because I've got like a very dark sense of humor and I think
00:13:46 --> 00:13:48 I'm funny. My mom thinks I'm funny.
00:13:48 --> 00:13:50 I laughed to myself and talked to myself.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:55 And I decided, you know, well, okay, yeah, I have mental illness,
00:13:55 --> 00:13:57 but this is not a disability to me.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:03 I'm going to call it my Millie. So my mental illness is my Millie.
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 Millie is short for mental illness.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:09 And I've decided that my Millie is my friend.
00:14:09 --> 00:14:16 And I am harnessing her as a superhero strength and running with it.
00:14:16 --> 00:14:24 And so I figured out the, and I did make, you did see my little video,
00:14:24 --> 00:14:31 that talking about this and sharing with people that this isn't a death sentence.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:34 It isn't anything to be scared of.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:38 We should be scared of it, I guess. But you shouldn't be ashamed of it.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:46 There are a lot of different ways that people can look at this and approach it.
00:14:47 --> 00:14:53 Other than all doom and gloom. So how did you harness it as a superpower?
00:14:53 --> 00:15:00 What super abilities do you think you have now that you probably weren't aware
00:15:00 --> 00:15:06 that you were able to do now that you've been diagnosed and you've set out a plan to live with this?
00:15:07 --> 00:15:13 Yeah. So I guess technically I always had this superpower. I just had not locked
00:15:13 --> 00:15:18 into it. But when you do the research.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:24 Historically, so many people that have changed the world in amazing ways are
00:15:24 --> 00:15:30 people that lived with mental illness, be it bipolar, schizophrenic,
00:15:31 --> 00:15:36 all different autism spectrum, like all of that.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:44 There's so many people that really have unbelievably changed the world that we're living with this.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:52 And the close connection between mental illness and creativity,
00:15:52 --> 00:15:58 between mental illness and genius, I mean, they cross the line.
00:15:58 --> 00:16:03 And so, obviously, if you're looking for it, you know, if you do the research
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 and you're reading about it, you know, obviously, Van Gogh.
00:16:07 --> 00:16:13 I mean, you know, when I have 10 thoughts coming into my mind,
00:16:13 --> 00:16:17 I get really self-conscious because I know I'm stuttering because I'm trying
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 to get all the thoughts out of my mouth at the same time.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:27 So, I apologize if I'm stuttering. I'm just trying to talk to myself and actually
00:16:27 --> 00:16:29 get it out of my mouth at the same time.
00:16:30 --> 00:16:34 Yeah, you're doing fine, actually. You know, I understand exactly what you're saying.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:40 And I get that, you know, because one of the challenges that all of us have
00:16:40 --> 00:16:47 is dealing with ourselves, accepting who we are and what we can be.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:56 I've suffered depression. I haven't been diagnosed with MDD But I did suffer
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 from clinical depression And I've had to take medication for it And I have to
00:17:00 --> 00:17:03 monitor it And that's something I've documented on the show,
00:17:04 --> 00:17:07 And, you know, that leads me to a question about.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:14 How do you think the national population as a whole deals with mental health?
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 Or do you even think that is dealing with the issue appropriately?
00:17:17 --> 00:17:23 And the reason why is because I'm asking this is because, you know,
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 we're of an age, you and I, you're younger than me.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:34 But we're of an age where we grew up in our community and there were people
00:17:34 --> 00:17:36 where we just said, well, they different.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:42 You know what I'm saying? We didn't we didn't call it any kind of mental illness or whatever.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:45 Just say, well, you know, auntie is special because, you know,
00:17:45 --> 00:17:47 they are what they are. You know what I'm saying?
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 And and we just kind of learned to live with it.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:56 And as we became more educated, then we started seeing the special education
00:17:56 --> 00:17:59 programs and in schools.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:03 And then, you know, all these facilities and people being able to go get treatments and so on.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:10 But I still think that we as a country just kind of push mental illness to the side,
00:18:10 --> 00:18:15 like it's an inconvenience that we have to deal with instead of something that
00:18:15 --> 00:18:18 we need to confront. Do you feel the same way about that?
00:18:19 --> 00:18:21 Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 And, you know, obviously I'm not a politician or elected official or anything.
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 That's a good thing that Miss Tammy, that's a good thing.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:35 Wait, I'm crazy, but I'm not that crazy.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:48 But yeah, I mean, it seems to me just, okay, so jumping off of what you just said,
00:18:48 --> 00:18:56 people look at the homeless situation as an inconvenience.
00:18:57 --> 00:19:02 And, oh, you know, look at all, you know, these people messing up, you know, whatever.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:12 And I didn't know it then, but I've always had a special area or place in my
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 heart anytime I've come across any homeless friends.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:21 And for years and years, I volunteered with some homeless communities here in
00:19:21 --> 00:19:25 Atlanta well before this whole thing happened with me.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:30 So I didn't even know it. But afterwards, and because I've spent the last 10
00:19:30 --> 00:19:34 years getting to a place of stability,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:42 it makes sense to me now why I feel so at home and comfortable in homeless communities.
00:19:42 --> 00:19:48 Because when I'm meeting a homeless person or coming into interaction with them,
00:19:48 --> 00:19:53 I'm not looking at them as, oh, that's a homeless person.
00:19:53 --> 00:20:00 I'm looking at them like that's my brother that's me if I didn't if I.
00:20:01 --> 00:20:05 Didn't get to where I am right now, that would be me.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:11 So like how people complain about, oh, homelessness is getting worse and all this kind of stuff.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:16 You know, a huge percentage of those people are people that are living with
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 untreated or undiagnosed mental illness.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:29 So that whole community, that area in itself is kind of a little microcosm of
00:20:29 --> 00:20:30 the world we're living in.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:36 And now I don't remember what the question was. I just got off on my own tangent.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:41 Well, I mean, you were on point because what I'm saying is, you know,
00:20:41 --> 00:20:46 it's how do you think we as a nation deal with mental illness?
00:20:46 --> 00:20:48 Do you think we deal with it appropriately?
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 Are we not giving enough attention to it?
00:20:52 --> 00:20:57 What's your take on that? Honestly, what I think is we're not dealing with it appropriately.
00:20:57 --> 00:21:02 And I think that most people self-medicate.
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 That's what I think. Most people that are dealing with it are self-medicating.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:13 So rather than go to a doctor and seek treatment,
00:21:13 --> 00:21:17 they self-medicate and then you end up,
00:21:18 --> 00:21:27 dead or homeless or not living the full life that you could live if you could
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29 get the proper medical care.
00:21:29 --> 00:21:33 Do you think the pandemic kind of accelerated,
00:21:35 --> 00:21:41 Where we are now, as far as people coming to grips with either trying to self-medicate
00:21:41 --> 00:21:43 or actually trying to get some help dealing with mental illness?
00:21:44 --> 00:21:50 I mean, the pandemic, I think, just magnified it times a thousand.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:56 And I, once again, I'm not a politician or elected official.
00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 But number one, I know that God created doctors and science for a reason.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:07 And doctors and science saved my life.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:13 So because I know that there is help out there, oh, let me back up.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 Let me back up about this part.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:21 I left my brother who was my seven years, my junior.
00:22:21 --> 00:22:29 Let me back. So he, even though I never had any depression issues growing up, he did very, very young.
00:22:29 --> 00:22:32 And he started self-medicating very young, around like 10 or 11,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:34 he started drinking and self-medicating.
00:22:35 --> 00:22:39 And when you have a chemical imbalance like that, and you're introducing all
00:22:39 --> 00:22:43 the, you know, this alcohol and then harder drugs as he got older,
00:22:44 --> 00:22:50 you know, it spirals, you know, to a whole nother level where it makes it 2
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 times harder to rein it in and get control over it.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:59 So even though my family and I had dealt with all of the issues my brother was
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 going with all those years.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:07 And I, as his oldest sister, for the last almost about five years of his life,
00:23:08 --> 00:23:10 he lived with me before he passed away.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:15 And even though I saw everything he was going through and I kept trying to get
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 him to go to doctor's appointments and take his medicine.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:23 And a lot of people, well, maybe they will go for that first appointment and
00:23:23 --> 00:23:28 maybe they will try a medication, but they don't like the way it makes them
00:23:28 --> 00:23:29 feel and they give up on it.
00:23:30 --> 00:23:39 That whole thing about you've got to, if you had diabetes, you would do whatever
00:23:39 --> 00:23:40 you had to do to get that insulin.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:49 And so why people don't give that same kind of attention and sense of importance
00:23:49 --> 00:23:54 to their brain is something that I'm never going to understand.
00:23:54 --> 00:24:03 So I know that I have to have this medication for me to be stable and live a good, fulfilling life.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:11 So with him, you know, he never would buy into that doctors and science could help him.
00:24:11 --> 00:24:16 He always just went back to self-medicating until he self-medicated to death.
00:24:16 --> 00:24:24 So I think that I've figured out in this last 10 years that I am supposed to
00:24:24 --> 00:24:28 talk about it because I am alive and my brother is not.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:37 And in a simplified way, he's not alive because he didn't believe that doctors
00:24:37 --> 00:24:38 and science could help him.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:44 So you mentioned some of your work. Talk specifically about the work you do
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 with the open door community in Atlanta.
00:24:47 --> 00:24:56 Oh, well, I miss open door so much. So, yeah. So open door was a faith-based community.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:05 Living space for, and communal, like church services, and we would feed the
00:25:05 --> 00:25:09 homeless in the community, but we would really feed them.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:13 It wasn't like a food bank or whatever, where they, you know,
00:25:14 --> 00:25:16 come in and just get the food and then go take it to themselves.
00:25:16 --> 00:25:20 What made Open Door different was that we actually, the volunteers,
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 we actually, you know, prepared all the food.
00:25:24 --> 00:25:29 We had everybody get seated. We would seat them and we would actually make their
00:25:29 --> 00:25:33 plates and come and serve it and bring it to them like they were in a restaurant.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:37 So it really just was such a special, special place.
00:25:37 --> 00:25:40 And I was heartbroken when they had to close their doors because they had been
00:25:40 --> 00:25:41 there for about 35 years, I believe.
00:25:42 --> 00:25:48 But the couples that had started it were getting into their late 80s and early 90s.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:52 So they really just physically couldn't
00:25:52 --> 00:25:55 run it anymore and they had such a difficult time trying
00:25:55 --> 00:25:58 to train and and
00:25:58 --> 00:26:03 get people that could that could go and live in the space and do what they were
00:26:03 --> 00:26:09 doing at the level they were doing it because I guess you know people people
00:26:09 --> 00:26:14 our age and younger aren't willing to make that that kind of sacrifice in those
00:26:14 --> 00:26:17 kind of living situations but I mean obviously I didn't live there.
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22 I was just a volunteer, but it really impacted me really, really deeply.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 It just breaks my heart that they had to close.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:32 But then I ended up doing volunteer work with another nonprofit here in Decatur,
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 right outside of Atlanta, called A Home for Everyone in DeKalb.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:41 And their main mission is to get people housing.
00:26:42 --> 00:26:48 But when I got associated with them was when COVID hit.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:53 And that was because another church that I had been doing volunteer work,
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56 when COVID hit, all the churches had to close down.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:01 And so me and these two other ladies that have been volunteers at Decatur Presbyterian,
00:27:01 --> 00:27:04 we're like, okay, well, how are our friends going to eat?
00:27:04 --> 00:27:09 Because all of the homeless community in Decatur, that's where they would get
00:27:09 --> 00:27:14 their meals was the churches would serve them at lunchtime.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:19 So we were like, well, how are they going to eat? So we're like,
00:27:19 --> 00:27:24 okay, well, we'll just tell the community neighbors and everybody that we're
00:27:24 --> 00:27:28 taking donations and we'll just go and we'll serve them.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 We'll go to them and we'll serve them.
00:27:30 --> 00:27:34 You know, at the time we're like, oh, you know, it'll be a couple of weeks.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:37 We'll just get all these donations. It'll be a couple of weeks.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:41 So we'll just go and take it to them. And of course, a year and a half later,
00:27:41 --> 00:27:47 we had still been out there every single day before finally we got the churches to take it back over.
00:27:48 --> 00:27:56 But working with them and doing that is what I believe in my heart and my soul
00:27:56 --> 00:28:03 got me through that first two years of the pandemic was knowing that I had to
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 be there to make sure these people ate every day.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:14 And it was a sense of community with them and making sure that they had what they needed.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:20 And it helped me tremendously get through that first two years of the pandemic.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:27 So I know that you've stated a couple of times that you're not an elected official,
00:28:27 --> 00:28:35 but what would you like to see done in the public policy arena to address mental health?
00:28:35 --> 00:28:41 Because like I said, my biggest concern, I served nine years and it was like
00:28:41 --> 00:28:46 every year the state of Mississippi would cut the Department of Mental Health budget.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:50 If we were going to cut nobody else's, we were going to cut that department.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:56 And I just I just figured in my mind at some point in time we were going to pay for that.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:01 So and I know that we weren't the only state doing that.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:10 So what would you like to see elected officials do to to to address this this issue?
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 Well, wow.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 I mean, that's a super loaded question. Like, I feel like I need to go do some
00:29:17 --> 00:29:19 research to answer this question adequately.
00:29:20 --> 00:29:27 But, I mean, just off the top of my head, one thing would be people that are
00:29:27 --> 00:29:34 suffering with mental illness, maybe not putting them in jail.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:38 You know figuring out some kind
00:29:38 --> 00:29:41 of segue between a hospital
00:29:41 --> 00:29:44 and just not
00:29:44 --> 00:29:50 jail like you know if okay maybe they get arrested because they did something
00:29:50 --> 00:29:59 that was a crime but once they get there and they and you know whoever is working
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 at the jail knows okay this person is.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:08 Then having medical people say this person is suffering with ABC,
00:30:09 --> 00:30:17 which is a mental illness, maybe not keeping him in jail, maybe some kind of
00:30:17 --> 00:30:21 segue between the jail and hospitalization so that they could actually...
00:30:21 --> 00:30:26 Like, what if this person is on the street committing these crimes to eat,
00:30:27 --> 00:30:34 but if they had access to adequate health care and actually got on the medication that they needed,
00:30:34 --> 00:30:38 where they could actually function and, you know,
00:30:38 --> 00:30:40 do a job and not commit crimes.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:45 Like, I mean, it's obviously that just sounds so.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 Well, let me let me let me let me tell you a story from personal experience.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:54 So one of the other professions I've been in other than politics has been law enforcement.
00:30:55 --> 00:31:00 And when I was in Mississippi, I was working with the sheriff's office and deputies
00:31:00 --> 00:31:04 brought in this guy and young black man.
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 And he seemed kind of belligerent. Right. He seemed like he was fighting all the time.
00:31:08 --> 00:31:11 And, of course, if you got police officers grabbing you around,
00:31:11 --> 00:31:14 you're going to try to fight, too. Right. Especially if you show up at the jail.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 So and then every now and then I would hear him blurt out like some.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:23 Cussing, which, you know, usually when we're in those situations, that's natural.
00:31:23 --> 00:31:25 Somebody mad, they're going to cuss you out. Right.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:31 So I had the privilege and I say that I had the privilege to book him in.
00:31:32 --> 00:31:38 And so as we were talking, you know, he was giving me his information. He was very calm.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:44 And then I think it was some, either I asked him what his address was or something
00:31:44 --> 00:31:47 really benign. And all of a sudden he just started cussing.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:53 And then he went back to answer my question. So at that point I said,
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 I wonder if he's suffering from Tourette's.
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 Now I'm not a doctor, but I kind of figured that was part of the behavior.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:05 So the next, I asked him, I skipped down and I said, are you taking any medication?
00:32:06 --> 00:32:11 And he said, yes. I said, when was the last time you took your medication?
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 He said, well, it's been a minute because I haven't been able to afford it.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:20 And, you know, I flipped over the paper. I said, write it down what you're supposed to be taking.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 So he was being charged with disturbing the peace or whatever the case may be.
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27 He was he was at a store and had an episode.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:36 So basically his family got him and he wasn't a problem. He had never had any arrest prior to that.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:39 He worked like in construction.
00:32:40 --> 00:32:44 And fortunately, we were able to get him in and get him out so he didn't miss a day of work.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:49 And the charges were dropped because they realized, you know,
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 he needed medical attention. He needed his medicine.
00:32:53 --> 00:33:00 So, you know, that that was a good story. But a lot of times what you're saying
00:33:00 --> 00:33:06 is that people don't don't have somebody that that's aware of what's happening
00:33:06 --> 00:33:07 or it'll take the time to be that aware.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:13 And I've seen that and working in both Mississippi jail and here at Fulton County.
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 We've got we've got a whole. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I was going to say,
00:33:18 --> 00:33:24 but that guy got lucky because you booked him in, you booked him in and had
00:33:24 --> 00:33:25 the presence of mind to say,
00:33:26 --> 00:33:30 oh, this guy's in crisis. This guy, you know, needs some help.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:35 So had it been somebody else that booked him in, he'd probably still be in and
00:33:35 --> 00:33:37 out of jail, you know, right now.
00:33:37 --> 00:33:42 Right. And that's and that's, I think, the issue that you want us to.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:46 But when I say us, people in public policy,
00:33:46 --> 00:33:54 you want you want them to focus more in on treatment as opposed to punishment
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 for even whatever crime they may be accused of.
00:33:59 --> 00:34:05 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the and now that you touched on the law enforcement part
00:34:05 --> 00:34:11 of it, the even with my brother before he passed, he had ended up arrested.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:18 Because he had taken some drug and I guess a similar situation to what you're talking about.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:23 Because you know about Fulton County, so you know about the MARTA system.
00:34:24 --> 00:34:29 So he had been some MARTA station and I don't know what drug it was that he
00:34:29 --> 00:34:34 had taken, but he flipped out and got arrested.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:43 And so even now to this day, It's this October made 10 years since he passed
00:34:43 --> 00:34:47 away Even now to this day, I still get mailed to my house.
00:34:49 --> 00:34:54 About court appearances and stuff that he missed 10 years later.
00:34:56 --> 00:35:02 So, you know, once they have you in that system, you know, it's not like they're
00:35:02 --> 00:35:09 going to say, oh, you know, you don't have to show a purport or you don't have to this.
00:35:10 --> 00:35:14 And if you miss a phone call or you miss anything, you know,
00:35:14 --> 00:35:16 then you're going back to jail. There's more fees.
00:35:17 --> 00:35:24 There's more time. And how can somebody get the medical treatment and everything
00:35:24 --> 00:35:31 that they need in place if they're always worried about they're going to go
00:35:31 --> 00:35:33 back to jail because they missed,
00:35:34 --> 00:35:36 they didn't pay a fine or they didn't this.
00:35:36 --> 00:35:44 And I mean, it's just like that does infuriate me where people can't get the
00:35:44 --> 00:35:49 help that they need because they're afraid of getting arrested again or going back to jail.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:57 So what message do you want to send to the African-American community about mental illness?
00:35:57 --> 00:36:03 How do you how do you how do you want us to not stigmatize it?
00:36:03 --> 00:36:11 So simply, I would just want people to take their brain as seriously as they
00:36:11 --> 00:36:15 take cancer, diabetes, heart attack.
00:36:16 --> 00:36:21 I mean, really simply take it, take it as seriously as you take every other medical condition.
00:36:23 --> 00:36:26 Yeah. And that's very important because, you know, in our community and especially
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 us black men, I just I'll be transparent.
00:36:30 --> 00:36:35 It's hard to get us to go to the doctor for anything, whether it's it's it's
00:36:35 --> 00:36:37 physical, mental, whatever.
00:36:37 --> 00:36:42 So I feel very fortunate that I'm not as stubborn as my dad.
00:36:44 --> 00:36:50 And I've whenever something's been wrong with me, you know, I address it.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 And and it's been a blessing in my life that I've taken those steps.
00:36:56 --> 00:37:05 And I would encourage anybody listening that we can't ignore that part of our lives anymore.
00:37:05 --> 00:37:12 We have to address not only our physical, but our mental in order to make sure
00:37:12 --> 00:37:17 that we can do because we as black people have dealt with stuff that a lot of
00:37:17 --> 00:37:18 other people haven't dealt with.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:25 And so there's there's physical trauma and mental trauma attached to that generational trauma.
00:37:25 --> 00:37:27 That's right. And we need to address it.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:36 So I appreciate you willing to get out there and and to to be brave and to talk
00:37:36 --> 00:37:39 about this issue candidly and courageously. courageously.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:44 So Ms. Tammy, if people want to get in touch with you, if they want you to come
00:37:44 --> 00:37:50 speak at the church or be on somebody else's podcast, how can people reach out to you?
00:37:50 --> 00:37:56 Oh, absolutely. I'm on Instagram, all one word, Tammy McCall Browning. Same with Facebook.
00:37:57 --> 00:37:58 You told me that I'm on LinkedIn.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 I don't even remember getting everything together for LinkedIn,
00:38:03 --> 00:38:07 but you told me that I was on there. So LinkedIn, Tammy McCall Browning.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:15 Oh, also I have a website, tamyswing.com because I actually am a clothing designer.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:18 So I've got some interesting stuff on there.
00:38:19 --> 00:38:22 But yeah, Instagram is the easiest thing for me to navigate.
00:38:22 --> 00:38:28 I am very, not very competent on all these technological things,
00:38:28 --> 00:38:34 but Instagram is the one thing that I can navigate easily. All right.
00:38:35 --> 00:38:40 Well, again, Tammy McCall Browning, I am really, really honored to meet you.
00:38:41 --> 00:38:44 I am honored that you came on the podcast. And again,
00:38:44 --> 00:38:49 I am very encouraged that you are willing to go forth and talk about this issue
00:38:49 --> 00:38:57 and get us to a level of comfort where we can do something positive to address
00:38:57 --> 00:39:00 it and make sure that people are getting the care that they need.
00:39:00 --> 00:39:02 So thank you again.
00:39:03 --> 00:39:06 Thank you so much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:39:08 --> 00:39:26 Music.
00:39:26 --> 00:39:30 All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest,
00:39:30 --> 00:39:33 Dr. Chica Stacey O'Rioa.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:40 When a Time Magazine's 2021 Next Generation Leaders and named on McLean's Power
00:39:40 --> 00:39:47 50 list in 2022, Chica Stacey O'Rioa, M.D., is a medical trailblazer,
00:39:48 --> 00:39:50 spearheading change in health care and beyond.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:55 Currently a resident doctor in psychiatry at the University of Toronto,
00:39:55 --> 00:40:02 Oriowa is a graduate of the school's Tamerti faculty of medicine and has served
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04 a variety of board positions.
00:40:04 --> 00:40:10 Oriowa was also honored in Mattel's Thank You Heroes campaign with a one-of-a-kind
00:40:10 --> 00:40:16 Barbie doll made in her image to commemorate her contributions as a frontline healthcare worker.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:22 Recently, Arirwa established the Dr. Chica Arirwa Award for the advancement
00:40:22 --> 00:40:31 of black health at Temerity Medicine, which will be awarded annually to a graduating medical student.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:35 And she has also written a book called Unlike the Rest.
00:40:35 --> 00:40:43 So we're going to be discussing the book and some other experiences that she
00:40:43 --> 00:40:49 has had in her pursuit to being a doctor in Canada.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:53 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 guest on this podcast, Dr.
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 Chica Stacey Oriola.
00:41:00 --> 00:41:10 Music.
00:41:10 --> 00:41:18 All right. Dr. Chica Stacey Oriowa. How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:41:19 --> 00:41:22 I'm doing so well. So excited to be here and chat with you.
00:41:23 --> 00:41:27 Well, I am definitely honored to have you on.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:35 And a lot of the questions I'm going to ask you is going to be based on your
00:41:35 --> 00:41:37 book, unlike the rest, a doctor's story.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:44 And because it's a very fascinating read, it's written by somebody.
00:41:45 --> 00:41:50 If you read the book, you would think that this was a person who was basically
00:41:50 --> 00:41:54 about to retire and just was reflecting on life. But you're a very,
00:41:54 --> 00:41:57 very young, very cerebral sister.
00:41:58 --> 00:42:03 And so the way that you articulate what goes on in your life.
00:42:03 --> 00:42:08 It's pretty obvious that writing was your other passion.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:14 Oh, thank you. So what I like to do to break the ice is to throw a quote at the guest.
00:42:15 --> 00:42:22 So this is your quote. There is no greater agony than bearing an untold story
00:42:22 --> 00:42:25 inside you. What does that quote mean to you?
00:42:26 --> 00:42:31 So, well, that's the quote that's at the beginning of my book by Dr. Maya Angelou.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:38 And that quote is so resonant with me, not only because she is one of my greatest
00:42:38 --> 00:42:44 role models in life, both from an academic perspective, but also as an artist,
00:42:44 --> 00:42:46 as a poet, as a performer, as a public speaker.
00:42:46 --> 00:42:53 But that quote, what it means to me is that there is an onus upon us.
00:42:53 --> 00:43:00 I feel like as writers, as wordsmiths, to take our life story,
00:43:00 --> 00:43:04 to take the things that we observe and what we witness, and to give it to the world.
00:43:05 --> 00:43:09 And I find that there is a singular pain, as Dr.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:16 Angelo had noted, there is a singular pain associated with keeping these untold
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 stories, with not sharing them, with not giving them oxygen.
00:43:19 --> 00:43:23 And I found throughout the course of my life, but especially within medicine
00:43:23 --> 00:43:26 and shortly after graduating from medical school,
00:43:26 --> 00:43:29 being in residency, and when I started to embark on writing this book,
00:43:29 --> 00:43:37 that when I finally was able to put onto the page, put into words what it is
00:43:37 --> 00:43:40 that I had experienced as a woman,
00:43:40 --> 00:43:44 as a Black woman navigating medicine, as a daughter of immigrants.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:49 Navigating this culture that is so vastly different from where my page was.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:56 Parents grew up and being at these different intersections and having these
00:43:56 --> 00:44:00 different roles and different identities coalescing into my experience that
00:44:00 --> 00:44:02 when I was finally able to put it into words,
00:44:02 --> 00:44:05 I felt liberated in such a great sense.
00:44:05 --> 00:44:10 And I didn't even realize almost how painful it was for me to hold all of these
00:44:10 --> 00:44:12 different stories inside.
00:44:12 --> 00:44:20 And so that quote from Maya Angelou is a beautiful summation of the purpose of the book. So,
00:44:21 --> 00:44:26 Why is it important to have an unflinching examination of life?
00:44:30 --> 00:44:37 So having an unflinching examination of the human experience is core and central
00:44:37 --> 00:44:42 to not only my work as an artist, as a poet, as a writer, but central to my
00:44:42 --> 00:44:45 work as a physician, as a doctor.
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 And why it is so important that when we are able to actually look at some of the more,
00:44:52 --> 00:44:57 befuddling underbellies of the human experience, some of the most painful observations
00:44:57 --> 00:44:59 that we can make in humanity,
00:44:59 --> 00:45:04 that is not only what is important for me to do as a poet, but as a physician,
00:45:05 --> 00:45:12 but what that actually enables me to do is that it builds my capacity for humanity, for compassion,
00:45:12 --> 00:45:18 for really being able to sit with others in their own adversity,
00:45:18 --> 00:45:20 in the mire of their own experiences.
00:45:21 --> 00:45:25 And so when I say it's important to have that unflinching examination,
00:45:25 --> 00:45:26 we have to be able to do that.
00:45:26 --> 00:45:30 And I find that that's also central to being an effective advocate,
00:45:31 --> 00:45:35 to being an effective ally for other disenfranchised communities when you are
00:45:35 --> 00:45:37 able to look at their pain,
00:45:37 --> 00:45:42 when you are able to validate their experiences, when you don't turn away from
00:45:42 --> 00:45:48 the suffering of others, that is where you unleash your capacity for your own humanity.
00:45:49 --> 00:45:52 Why do you think we fall short of that now?
00:45:53 --> 00:45:57 I'm here in the United States, and I'm,
00:45:58 --> 00:46:03 In the in the political leadership that I see, I don't I don't the majority
00:46:03 --> 00:46:07 of people, I don't see that it's more concerned about elections.
00:46:07 --> 00:46:12 It's more concerned about publicity, whether it's on social media and the news.
00:46:13 --> 00:46:18 And I think as close as the election was, as far as popular vote goes,
00:46:18 --> 00:46:23 I don't I don't feel that people are are having that examination.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:25 Why do you think that is?
00:46:26 --> 00:46:33 You know, what I would say is that when we are called to do that deeper,
00:46:33 --> 00:46:38 more granular assessment of what is actually at hand in the ways in which our
00:46:38 --> 00:46:43 humanity is being threatened, in the ways in which our personhood is being threatened
00:46:43 --> 00:46:45 in a variety of different contexts,
00:46:45 --> 00:46:50 oftentimes it is just too painful for people to look at it or there is truly
00:46:50 --> 00:46:53 a privilege in being able to look away.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:58 You know, that phrase, ignorance is bliss, as cliche as that is,
00:46:58 --> 00:47:02 there really is a significant amount of truth to it, right?
00:47:03 --> 00:47:08 Not having to look at things that are painful or jarring or that make us call
00:47:08 --> 00:47:14 into question our own understanding of things or our own actions, our own value systems.
00:47:14 --> 00:47:20 All of these things are so can in and of itself be such a painful thing that
00:47:20 --> 00:47:23 you just want to look away but I also think that you know.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:30 It also requires of us, it's almost a call to action in a certain sense.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:34 And I believe it was James Baldwin.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:38 I don't want to misspeak as to who the author of this quote was,
00:47:38 --> 00:47:42 but when they say that, you know, to be Black is to be angry all of the time
00:47:42 --> 00:47:45 or to be in a constant state of rage.
00:47:46 --> 00:47:49 And I think that that in and of itself is a perfect summation,
00:47:49 --> 00:47:54 again, of why it is that it can be so much easier to just look away.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:56 Because once you know, you cannot unknow.
00:47:56 --> 00:47:59 And then once you know, you feel called to do something about it.
00:47:59 --> 00:48:02 And then that becomes a shared responsibility, a collective onus.
00:48:02 --> 00:48:07 And for some people, it simply is just easier to go about as if you did not
00:48:07 --> 00:48:09 know all of these things in the first place.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:12 So I'm going to stay on this rabbit hole just a little bit. By the way,
00:48:13 --> 00:48:16 that was Baldwin. You know you're smarter than me, so I don't know why you were
00:48:16 --> 00:48:17 doubting yourself on it.
00:48:19 --> 00:48:25 But you're going to be on a program this podcast with a guest that I've had
00:48:25 --> 00:48:27 that's been an advocate dealing with mental illness.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:33 And you are in the practice of psychiatry.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:39 Now, even though you're in a different country, you pay attention to what's
00:48:39 --> 00:48:43 going on in the United States and all that. Of course.
00:48:44 --> 00:48:49 But let me ask this. In Canada, is there a similar stigma toward mental illness
00:48:49 --> 00:48:53 like it is in the United States? Is it something that's looked down upon?
00:48:53 --> 00:48:58 Or is Canada more progressive in dealing with it?
00:48:59 --> 00:49:05 I would say that the stigma towards mental illness is one of the few things
00:49:05 --> 00:49:12 that is truly universal alongside anti-Blackness, which I think we have a lot
00:49:12 --> 00:49:13 of understanding there.
00:49:13 --> 00:49:19 But the stigma towards mental illness is a ubiquitous and permeating force.
00:49:19 --> 00:49:25 And so here in Canada, absolutely, that is something that we culturally are still grappling with.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:34 I think that since the pandemic, there are many more conversations around mental
00:49:34 --> 00:49:37 health because I think for the first time,
00:49:37 --> 00:49:43 a lot of individuals who had no pre-existing mental illness were now presenting in droves.
00:49:43 --> 00:49:48 There was a tsunami wave of mental illness because individuals were being confronted
00:49:48 --> 00:49:54 with isolation, with uncertainty, with, you know, massive suffering of,
00:49:54 --> 00:49:56 you know, what occurred within the pandemic.
00:49:56 --> 00:50:01 And so we saw this huge influx of mental health issues within the population,
00:50:01 --> 00:50:05 within the population, such that we needed to have these kinds of conversations
00:50:05 --> 00:50:09 much more transparently, much more vulnerably because of who it was affecting.
00:50:10 --> 00:50:13 And even if individuals weren't directly affected themselves,
00:50:13 --> 00:50:18 there is, with almost 100% certainty, and I don't want to exaggerate too much,
00:50:18 --> 00:50:24 but almost certainly we know somebody in our lives who is struggling with some kind of mental illness,
00:50:24 --> 00:50:29 whether that's generalized anxiety disorder, all the way to a more severe mental
00:50:29 --> 00:50:30 illness such as schizophrenia.
00:50:31 --> 00:50:35 So we know someone who is dealing with this if we ourselves are not dealing
00:50:35 --> 00:50:40 with some area of that. And yet there is still remains the stigma.
00:50:40 --> 00:50:46 And I would even say that that stigma in many ways is transferred onto the field of psychiatry.
00:50:46 --> 00:50:52 It's transferred onto psychiatrists as well with respect to, you know,
00:50:52 --> 00:50:56 whether or not sometimes when we're dealing with these illnesses,
00:50:56 --> 00:51:02 some individuals may want to challenge the legitimacy of mental illness and
00:51:02 --> 00:51:05 say, you know, well, if mental illness isn't real, then is the practice of psychiatry?
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 Is it also as legitimate as other areas of medicine?
00:51:08 --> 00:51:15 And so we see these issues. And then, you know, as it relates to the disparities
00:51:15 --> 00:51:20 within mental illness, as it relates to the different intersections of race,
00:51:20 --> 00:51:25 that we look to the states and there's so much rich data as it pertains to racism
00:51:25 --> 00:51:29 within the mental health system, that here in Canada,
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 we're just now starting to build up the repertoire of evidence to support the
00:51:33 --> 00:51:39 fact that these same issues issues are also persisting within the Canadian medical system.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:47 So quick answer. Can Canada do better from a public policy standpoint in dealing
00:51:47 --> 00:51:49 with mental illness? Yes or no?
00:51:50 --> 00:51:55 Absolutely. Yes. Okay. All right. Let's get out of that rabbit hole and get back to the book.
00:51:56 --> 00:52:02 But, but I couldn't, I couldn't pass that up because that's an issue that I've,
00:52:02 --> 00:52:05 I've dealt with personally as far as dealing with depression.
00:52:05 --> 00:52:12 And as an elected official in fighting for dollars for mental health.
00:52:13 --> 00:52:17 So I had to take advantage of that opportunity.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:26 So getting back to the book, what challenge do you feel is the hardest to navigate
00:52:26 --> 00:52:28 as a woman of Nigerian heritage?
00:52:28 --> 00:52:31 Is it misogyny or is it racism?
00:52:33 --> 00:52:36 No, that's the question. Oh, man.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:41 You know, I think it depends on the context, right?
00:52:41 --> 00:52:49 In the Nigerian community, a community in which I'm so proud to be a part of, right?
00:52:49 --> 00:52:53 I carry so much pride as a Nigerian woman, as an Igbo woman,
00:52:53 --> 00:52:55 incredibly pride of my culture.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:01 And at the same time, the misogyny owing to the.
00:53:02 --> 00:53:07 Heartbreakingly patriarchal society that the, you know, West African,
00:53:07 --> 00:53:11 African, so many societies are, but specifically in the context of the Nigerian
00:53:11 --> 00:53:17 community, the misogyny is so breathtaking at points that it can be devastating.
00:53:18 --> 00:53:21 It was devastating for me. It continues to be devastating at point in times.
00:53:21 --> 00:53:28 However, you know, back in the Canadian context, looking at the fact that I
00:53:28 --> 00:53:31 am immediately racialized as a Black individual.
00:53:31 --> 00:53:36 And so the racism for me within medical school, I would say at the foremost
00:53:36 --> 00:53:39 of that, was probably the most isolating element.
00:53:39 --> 00:53:46 Now, the twist to all of this is that I don't, rarely do I get to truly separate
00:53:46 --> 00:53:47 out these two things, right?
00:53:48 --> 00:53:54 The misogynoir of being a Black woman and the ways in which these two systems
00:53:54 --> 00:53:56 of oppression intersect.
00:53:56 --> 00:54:01 Compound, and make every different kind of interaction or can make every different
00:54:01 --> 00:54:03 kind of interaction uniquely challenging,
00:54:03 --> 00:54:10 such that I struggle at times to find solidarity within female spaces because
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 they might not understand the racial component and the struggle at times within
00:54:14 --> 00:54:19 the Nigerian and Black community to find solidarity because then that interlacing
00:54:19 --> 00:54:21 of the misogyny makes it challenging.
00:54:21 --> 00:54:25 And so I would say that, you know, both of them are uniquely challenging,
00:54:25 --> 00:54:31 but experiencing the confluence of the two is a singular kind of pain associated with that.
00:54:32 --> 00:54:38 Now, your father wanted you to be proud and knowledgeable about your culture
00:54:38 --> 00:54:42 and history, but he did not want you to speak the language because it felt it
00:54:42 --> 00:54:46 would be an impediment to your assimilation in the Canadian society.
00:54:46 --> 00:54:53 So my question is, what are the positives and negatives in dealing with that dichotomy?
00:54:54 --> 00:54:56 Oh, so another brilliant question.
00:54:56 --> 00:55:00 And it's actually one that I've been thinking a lot about this week.
00:55:00 --> 00:55:05 And I've had quite a few readers of the book reach out to me and want to talk
00:55:05 --> 00:55:11 about that specific issue relating to my father's choice to not pass on our language.
00:55:11 --> 00:55:15 And now that I have children myself, and I reflect on this quite a lot,
00:55:15 --> 00:55:19 I am very much encouraging my parents to teach it to my children,
00:55:19 --> 00:55:22 because I want my children to know the language.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:27 And I see now, and I wrote about this in my book, Unlike the Rest,
00:55:27 --> 00:55:35 I see where it was coming from with respect to the protective drive from my parents' angle.
00:55:35 --> 00:55:38 You know, my parents came here, we have to understand the context that my parents
00:55:38 --> 00:55:44 came from Nigeria to Canada, specifically, they were in Montreal and Quebec
00:55:44 --> 00:55:47 for a long time before they came to Ontario.
00:55:47 --> 00:55:51 And being Nigerian immigrants with a very thick accent, even though my parents
00:55:51 --> 00:55:55 were educated, they have a very thick accent, in the environments where they
00:55:55 --> 00:56:02 were working in, in the 1980s, 1990s, where they were one of very few Black individuals,
00:56:03 --> 00:56:07 one of very few African individuals, that invariably.
00:56:08 --> 00:56:14 Colored the ways in which they were interacted with their colleagues, with their superiors.
00:56:14 --> 00:56:18 And I talk about this in the book, how my parents faced a significant amount
00:56:18 --> 00:56:23 of racism, discrimination, mischaracterization, simply based on the fact that
00:56:23 --> 00:56:25 not only were they Black, but they had the accent.
00:56:26 --> 00:56:31 And that people questioned their intelligence, they questioned their capacity,
00:56:32 --> 00:56:35 they questioned their skill set purely based on this.
00:56:35 --> 00:56:41 And so I knew that for my dad, he felt that that was a barrier to his full assimilation
00:56:41 --> 00:56:42 into the Canadian culture.
00:56:42 --> 00:56:47 And so for him, he wanted us to have not only the best English,
00:56:47 --> 00:56:51 he wanted us to be incredible wordsmiths, he wanted us to be strong writers,
00:56:51 --> 00:56:53 he really, really wanted that for us.
00:56:53 --> 00:56:57 But he also strongly felt that having an accent would, even if we were amazing
00:56:57 --> 00:56:59 writers, would get in the way of that.
00:56:59 --> 00:57:05 And unfortunately, I saw how that certain ways that came to be true.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:09 That the, you know, individuals who had accents, absolutely,
00:57:09 --> 00:57:11 they do face different kinds of discrimination in the workplace,
00:57:11 --> 00:57:13 professionally and personally.
00:57:14 --> 00:57:20 However, I do grieve significantly the loss of that language for my siblings
00:57:20 --> 00:57:21 and I for our generation.
00:57:21 --> 00:57:25 I know that there are other individuals within our community who we're very
00:57:25 --> 00:57:28 close to who are our age within our generation who are bilingual,
00:57:28 --> 00:57:31 and their parents taught them the language.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:36 You know, not that it would be an issue if they had an accent.
00:57:36 --> 00:57:40 I certainly don't see it as an issue, but they don't have the accent,
00:57:40 --> 00:57:42 and they still have the language.
00:57:42 --> 00:57:46 Language and that for me was like why couldn't you know why did it have to be
00:57:46 --> 00:57:53 so mutually exclusive right and so that's why I am now so adamant on my children
00:57:53 --> 00:57:56 learning the language and when they're old enough I'm going to send them to
00:57:56 --> 00:58:00 Igbo school I want them to be bilingual trilingual multilingual,
00:58:00 --> 00:58:04 because that's where culture lives culture lives within the language and so
00:58:04 --> 00:58:07 I want them to have that yeah yeah.
00:58:08 --> 00:58:13 You said in the book, although the experiences and historical context of black
00:58:13 --> 00:58:19 Canadians differ from those of black Americans, we are often connected in our
00:58:19 --> 00:58:22 experiences, experiences of being marginalized,
00:58:22 --> 00:58:26 subjugated and brutalized through systemic racism.
00:58:27 --> 00:58:33 In the U.S., there is a growing tension in the diaspora between African-Americans
00:58:33 --> 00:58:36 or black Americans and an African immigrant.
00:58:37 --> 00:58:44 I have said many times on this podcast, I say that that tension is detrimental toward progress.
00:58:44 --> 00:58:46 So I have two questions.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:51 Are there similar tensions within the diaspora in Canada?
00:58:51 --> 00:58:58 And two, do you agree with my assertion that is detrimental to have these divisions?
00:58:59 --> 00:59:03 So maybe I'll answer in the reverse. I want to say I absolutely do believe that
00:59:03 --> 00:59:06 it is detrimental, as you mentioned.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:11 I think when we look at the historical context, we can appreciate that due to
00:59:11 --> 00:59:16 the transatlantic slave trade or the trading of enslaved peoples,
00:59:16 --> 00:59:21 that built the Black population in the States.
00:59:21 --> 00:59:27 And then you have the immigration of Africans into the U.S.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:32 That have a very different path of getting there, have a very different history,
00:59:33 --> 00:59:39 right? And so we can appreciate that at least the lines are different.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:47 But then when I look at the actual people themselves, the fact that most of
00:59:47 --> 00:59:52 us originate from the same areas within Africa, right?
00:59:52 --> 00:59:56 A lot of individuals who've done the 23andMe, who have done the DNA analysis,
00:59:56 --> 01:00:02 they can tie back, oh, I'm 43% Nigerian, I'm 50% Ghanian, or whatever it is.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:05 And very similar also for individuals who are in the Caribbean.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:08 A lot of them can trace it back somewhere or another. Of course,
01:00:08 --> 01:00:12 there's racial admixture because of the brutal disease.
01:00:12 --> 01:00:18 System of slavery and, of course, what had happened with regard to sexual assault baked in there.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:22 And so we can appreciate that, of course, not 100% of their genetics can be
01:00:22 --> 01:00:24 tied back there, but a lot of it can.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:30 And I think that that does get in the way of the progress because when we start
01:00:30 --> 01:00:34 to draw these different lines, it becomes this, you know,
01:00:35 --> 01:00:40 you are not like us and we cannot be one. There cannot ever be true unity.
01:00:41 --> 01:00:45 And I think that when that divide is there, which I believe is another way in
01:00:45 --> 01:00:52 which white supremacy is able to persist, then that is how as communities we can't come together.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:57 We can't forge, you know, take care of one another the way that I believe other
01:00:57 --> 01:01:00 communities might have a better capacity to do so.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:05 But again, I don't necessarily think that that is entirely the fault of Black
01:01:05 --> 01:01:08 individuals and African individuals.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:12 Again, I think that, again, this is a consequence of white supremacy.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:14 This is a consequence of colonialism.
01:01:14 --> 01:01:21 And there are other powers that be that absolutely benefit from these lines continuing to be drawn.
01:01:21 --> 01:01:28 So that's my thought on the frictions that can be present there.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:32 And then to your first question, which I'm now slightly forgetting.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:35 Which I'm sorry, would you mind reminding me what the first question?
01:01:35 --> 01:01:40 Are you experiencing those kind of divisions in Canada? Right, right, right, right.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:45 So, again, the Canadian context is very different, because although there is
01:01:45 --> 01:01:50 absolutely a history of the slave trade within Canada as well,
01:01:50 --> 01:01:55 and there absolutely is a population, especially within Nova Scotia,
01:01:55 --> 01:02:00 there are Black Nova Scotians who have direct ties back to the slave trade.
01:02:00 --> 01:02:05 It's very different because a large proportion of the Black community,
01:02:05 --> 01:02:06 at least within Ontario.
01:02:07 --> 01:02:11 Within Toronto, where there are the highest numbers of Black individuals across
01:02:11 --> 01:02:16 the country, we are more so the result of immigration.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:22 So many of us are first, second, third generation Canadians because our parents
01:02:22 --> 01:02:27 came here from different parts of Africa or the Caribbean or something of that nature.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:33 And so that's what makes it up. Now, the process of racialization exists such
01:02:33 --> 01:02:36 that irrespective of where you come from, whether you're a Ghanian,
01:02:36 --> 01:02:40 whether you're Jamaican, whether you're a Nigerian, when you arrive here,
01:02:40 --> 01:02:46 you are racialized such that the way in which the system treats you is as a Black individual.
01:02:46 --> 01:02:51 The way in which racism works is that you are now Black, irrespective of where you come from.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:57 And so, that, I would say, is one of the primary differences between that.
01:02:57 --> 01:03:03 And so we don't necessarily see this huge divide between Black Canadians slash
01:03:03 --> 01:03:08 African Canadians for us in this context. I believe that it's more so we're
01:03:08 --> 01:03:11 all racialized in a very similar way.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:15 Yeah. Now I did the ancestry thing.
01:03:16 --> 01:03:20 So supposedly I'm 36% Nigerian.
01:03:20 --> 01:03:24 And that might explain why most of the Nigerian students when I was in college
01:03:24 --> 01:03:27 were cool with me and folks from other parts of Africa were not,
01:03:27 --> 01:03:30 but that's a whole nother discussion for another day.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:34 Yes, yes, yes. But, but there was one thing I thought about,
01:03:34 --> 01:03:37 it was a part of the book where you were talking about when
01:03:37 --> 01:03:40 you you shaved your head and i
01:03:40 --> 01:03:47 thought about that because you know there's other you know my dna shows bantu
01:03:47 --> 01:03:52 and and and some other stuff and so one of the things i thought about was when
01:03:52 --> 01:03:57 when the slaves came over they deliberately cut hair so that people wouldn't
01:03:57 --> 01:03:59 identify from what group they were from.
01:04:01 --> 01:04:06 And, and, and so that explains why there is, you know,
01:04:06 --> 01:04:11 other African cultures within my DNA, because they, you know,
01:04:11 --> 01:04:16 it wasn't just intermixing with Europeans, it was intermixing within our,
01:04:17 --> 01:04:22 you know, our own diaspora, because people couldn't identify with, you know,
01:04:22 --> 01:04:28 they originally were i mean they knew interesting but but they better interacted
01:04:28 --> 01:04:33 and and the way you tell your story about cutting hair was more of a liberation story as opposed to,
01:04:34 --> 01:04:39 how they did it here with the oppressive piece so it just that kind of that
01:04:39 --> 01:04:45 just kind of flashed in my mind while you were talking but i grew up in a generation
01:04:45 --> 01:04:50 where pan-africanism was encouraged,
01:04:50 --> 01:04:56 and that was kind of the drive you know i was the you know when hip-hop was
01:04:56 --> 01:05:00 first starting and you know and then we had these groups out here like public
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 enemy and you know and it was like fight the power and we got the fist raised
01:05:05 --> 01:05:10 back like my my i guess my parents did back in the 60s and 70s,
01:05:11 --> 01:05:18 and you know so it was important but now the politics and it really kind of
01:05:18 --> 01:05:22 showed his ugly had this political season here, you know, because the issue
01:05:22 --> 01:05:23 of reparations kicked in.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:31 And, you know, and then the other thing about Canada was that the first black
01:05:31 --> 01:05:34 Canadian I'd ever heard of was Ferguson Jenkins.
01:05:34 --> 01:05:39 Now, I don't know if you've heard that name or not, but Fergie Jenkins was a
01:05:39 --> 01:05:40 pitcher for the Chicago Cubs.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:43 I grew up in Chicago and he was one of the best pitchers we had.
01:05:44 --> 01:05:46 And then when you look on the baseball card, it said Hamilton,
01:05:46 --> 01:05:48 Ontario, Canada. I was like, what?
01:05:49 --> 01:05:51 Even know that that's where he was born we was like hey really black
01:05:51 --> 01:05:55 folks but as you study the history you realize well
01:05:55 --> 01:05:58 yeah that's where that was the ultimate place to get
01:05:58 --> 01:06:01 away it was one thing to get across the mason dixon
01:06:01 --> 01:06:04 line and go over that that the ohio river or wherever
01:06:04 --> 01:06:07 to get into freedom but if you
01:06:07 --> 01:06:10 really wanted to be free you went across one
01:06:10 --> 01:06:13 of them great lakes and you got to canada and so
01:06:13 --> 01:06:16 i know a lot of a lot of slaves became
01:06:16 --> 01:06:20 free when they got to Canada primarily Ontario
01:06:20 --> 01:06:27 so I know that there was there was a culture already of enslaved Americans that
01:06:27 --> 01:06:35 had re-established themselves as free communities in Ontario Canada so that's
01:06:35 --> 01:06:40 why I kind of wondered but of course the volume would not be the same but I just kind of wondered,
01:06:40 --> 01:06:48 was that kind of a discussion or kind of a sticking point with those folks who
01:06:48 --> 01:06:53 consider themselves Black Canadians because they came from slavery in the United
01:06:53 --> 01:06:55 States as opposed to immigrants.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 But obviously you weren't catching that vibe.
01:06:59 --> 01:07:03 Certainly not in the communities that I've grown up in. I mean,
01:07:03 --> 01:07:08 you know, I have met Black Nova Scotians who do identify with that particular
01:07:08 --> 01:07:11 history, with that particular identity.
01:07:11 --> 01:07:16 But even then, with the Black Nova Scotians who I have met, it was never,
01:07:17 --> 01:07:19 there was never that particular divide.
01:07:19 --> 01:07:23 That was never felt. It was always, you know, we are Black Canadians,
01:07:23 --> 01:07:28 and they have their specific, you know, relationship to the Black Nova Scotian
01:07:28 --> 01:07:32 community, which does tie back to the Black American enslaved communities.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:38 And so, yeah, I haven't particularly, again, of course, this isn't N of one.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:44 This is an anecdote of my specific experiences. And so I don't want to speak
01:07:44 --> 01:07:47 sweepingly over everyone's experiences as Black Canadians.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:51 But that is what I have observed. And I have a significant amount of family.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:55 Actually, most of my family is in the States. And so I go back to the States
01:07:55 --> 01:07:58 quite often to visit my family.
01:07:58 --> 01:08:04 And I know that their experience as Nigerian Americans, even my,
01:08:04 --> 01:08:08 you know, all of my cousins were born or they have lived most of their lives
01:08:08 --> 01:08:10 in the States or they were born in the States.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:15 And so I know that these discussions are discussions that they have much more
01:08:15 --> 01:08:21 passionately amongst the groups with Black Americans and Nigerian Americans
01:08:21 --> 01:08:22 or other African Americans.
01:08:22 --> 01:08:27 Like that's very, that's a very different conversation in the States for sure.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:33 And the Black Nova Scotians, for you and the listeners, have a very special
01:08:33 --> 01:08:36 place in my heart because they're the ones who invented hockey,
01:08:36 --> 01:08:41 just so everybody knows. And I love hockey. I didn't know that. Yeah.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:45 They invented hockey. I have no idea. Yeah.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:49 Now, you know, you got to really dig because it's like, you know,
01:08:49 --> 01:08:55 when you really dig into history, you'll find out how significant black, you know,
01:08:55 --> 01:09:01 black people, African people were on this side of the world, on this continent.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:06 And just a little nuance and all that. But yeah, it came out,
01:09:06 --> 01:09:12 I guess, maybe last year that they could trace the origin of hockey because
01:09:12 --> 01:09:14 Canada is like, that's our sport.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:17 And say, yeah, but it was a black, it was black folks. It was black folks in
01:09:17 --> 01:09:19 Nova Scotia that did that.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:22 So just wanted to give a shout out to them. Wow.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:28 Thank you for that. Oh, you're welcome. So let's, let's try to close this out
01:09:28 --> 01:09:36 by what I usually ask people when they write a book, what do you want readers to get out of the book?
01:09:37 --> 01:09:44 What I want the readers to know is that this is a tale of one,
01:09:44 --> 01:09:48 but it is a story. It is a book for all.
01:09:49 --> 01:09:53 And so what I mean by that is that, of course, when you look at the book,
01:09:53 --> 01:09:56 when you pick up the book, when you look at the book, when you read the backflap
01:09:56 --> 01:10:01 of the book and you understand that it is my memoir, it's my journey of going
01:10:01 --> 01:10:02 through medicine as a Black woman,
01:10:03 --> 01:10:06 as the formative years of my medical training,
01:10:07 --> 01:10:13 someone might think, well, this is a very niche, a very specific anecdotal experience,
01:10:13 --> 01:10:17 that only maybe Black women can understand or only doctors can understand.
01:10:17 --> 01:10:22 But what I want people to really appreciate is that this book is more so about
01:10:22 --> 01:10:28 what binds us in our humanity as opposed to what divides us. And.
01:10:29 --> 01:10:36 One of the most existential things to us as human beings is our drive for belonging,
01:10:36 --> 01:10:38 is our wanting to belong.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:45 And if we look at what is actually the most strongly understood predictor of
01:10:45 --> 01:10:50 longevity, it is our social connection above our physical health,
01:10:50 --> 01:10:53 above our mental health. It's our social connection.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:58 And that in and of itself is our ability to belong, our ability to remain connected to one another.
01:10:59 --> 01:11:03 And so that is truly what this story is about. It's about the power of belonging.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:08 It's about the power of connection. It's about the importance of holding onto
01:11:08 --> 01:11:10 our humanity in the face of adversity.
01:11:11 --> 01:11:16 And above all of that, it is also important to recognize that the story,
01:11:16 --> 01:11:21 that my book, what the readers will glean from it, is the importance of recognizing
01:11:21 --> 01:11:24 that not only do you belong, but that you have a voice.
01:11:24 --> 01:11:30 And this voice is powerful never to allow anyone to take this voice from you
01:11:30 --> 01:11:33 and to always be the author of your life,
01:11:33 --> 01:11:39 to never allow anyone to take the pen from your hand, that you get to determine what your power is,
01:11:39 --> 01:11:43 where it is that you belong, the spaces that you want to enter,
01:11:43 --> 01:11:46 and how it is that you show up authentically and unapologetically.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:49 And that's what I hope the readers will take home from this book.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:55 So in the same vein, what do you hope happens when a young girl from the African
01:11:55 --> 01:11:58 diaspora, whether it's in the United States, in Canada, wherever.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:03 Sees that Barbie doll that was inspired by you?
01:12:03 --> 01:12:09 What will you hope that those young girls will envision or dream?
01:12:11 --> 01:12:18 I hope that when they look at that Barbie doll, they don't just see a beautiful
01:12:18 --> 01:12:22 black Barbie dressed as a doctor who is a doctor with a stethoscope and the
01:12:22 --> 01:12:23 scrubs and the white coat.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:31 I want them to see the absolutely boundless potential within themselves.
01:12:32 --> 01:12:37 I want them to know that not only can they be anything, they can do anything,
01:12:37 --> 01:12:41 and they are in the driver's seat of their own excellence.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:47 And so, you know, as another James Baldwin quote that I put into my book,
01:12:47 --> 01:12:51 you know, your crown is already bought and paid for. All you have to do is put it on.
01:12:52 --> 01:12:55 That is what I want them to see when they see that Barbie,
01:12:55 --> 01:12:59 that this road has all, we've already started to pave it and it is incumbent
01:12:59 --> 01:13:04 upon you to continue on that journey and you have every single faculty within
01:13:04 --> 01:13:09 you to do that and so that's what i hope little black girls see little girls
01:13:09 --> 01:13:12 from the diaspora i hope that that's what they see when when they look at my barbie doll,
01:13:13 --> 01:13:18 all right doctor so how can people get in touch with you how can people get
01:13:18 --> 01:13:20 the book all that good stuff.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:28 So to get in touch with me, I can be found across most social platforms at Dr. Dr.
01:13:29 --> 01:13:36 Chika, C-H-I-K-A, Oriwa, O-R-I-U-W-A. That will be on Instagram.
01:13:37 --> 01:13:39 My LinkedIn is Dr. Chika Stacey Oriwa.
01:13:40 --> 01:13:42 My X is at Dr. Chika Oriwa.
01:13:43 --> 01:13:48 And my TikTok is also at Dr. Chika Oriwa. And with respect to where the book can be found.
01:13:48 --> 01:13:53 It can be found anywhere the books are sold and also at your favorite online retailer.
01:13:54 --> 01:14:02 All right. Well, Dr. Chika Stacey or Rewa, I am honored that you took the time
01:14:02 --> 01:14:07 to come on the podcast. I think you have an incredible story that a lot of people can relate to.
01:14:09 --> 01:14:14 And, you know, I'm glad that you are the living embodiment now because I know
01:14:14 --> 01:14:21 in the book you You talk about how it was hard to find somebody to identify
01:14:21 --> 01:14:23 as a role model that was real.
01:14:24 --> 01:14:27 It was like you relied on fiction and all that.
01:14:27 --> 01:14:32 So I am glad that young women now, especially women of African descent,
01:14:32 --> 01:14:36 that they have a real person that they can look at.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:43 And I'm glad that you had the courage and the talent to put it down in a book form.
01:14:44 --> 01:14:50 So, again, thank you for coming on the podcast. And understand that now that
01:14:50 --> 01:14:55 you have been a guest, you have an open invitation to come back anytime you want to.
01:14:55 --> 01:14:58 If something, you know, you've got a fire burning in your chest and you just
01:14:58 --> 01:15:01 got to say something, just let me know and we'll get you on.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:06 Amazing. Thank you. This has been an absolutely brilliant and impactful conversation
01:15:06 --> 01:15:09 with incredible questions. So thank you so much for having me.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:12 All right. You're going to make me blush before I get out of here.
01:15:12 --> 01:15:15 All right, guys. We'll catch y'all on the other side.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:28 Music.
01:15:28 --> 01:15:34 We are back. So I want to thank Tammy McCall Browning and Dr.
01:15:35 --> 01:15:39 Chica Stacey Oriowa for coming on the podcast.
01:15:39 --> 01:15:46 And, you know, I wish I was as brilliant as some people think I am,
01:15:46 --> 01:15:49 but just this worked out.
01:15:49 --> 01:15:52 You know, I had Dr. Oriowa coming on because of her book.
01:15:53 --> 01:16:00 And, you know, The intriguing part was somebody being of Nigerian heritage in
01:16:00 --> 01:16:10 Canada and her navigating through that in pursuit of being a doctor and all
01:16:10 --> 01:16:12 those things that that encompasses.
01:16:12 --> 01:16:20 But I didn't realize that her profession or specialty was psychiatry.
01:16:20 --> 01:16:28 So to have her and Miss Tammy on, who is an incredible spokesperson dealing
01:16:28 --> 01:16:34 with issues with mental illness, I couldn't have planned it any better than that.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:36 So I am grateful that both of those ladies came on.
01:16:36 --> 01:16:43 And I promised y'all, I promised you all that this was going to be a good show.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:47 And I hope that you agreed with that, that you got something out of those conversations.
01:16:49 --> 01:16:51 And we're going to try to,
01:16:52 --> 01:16:57 going to try to get some other appearances with them to come back.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:01 And I've been working behind the scenes to get some people that have been on
01:17:01 --> 01:17:03 the podcast before to come back on.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:06 And so far, that is working.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:13 So this is kind of shaping, 2025 is shaping up to be a really,
01:17:13 --> 01:17:20 really good year, inspired the fact of what's going to happen on January 20th.
01:17:21 --> 01:17:25 And we just, you know what? We just go and deal with that. Right.
01:17:25 --> 01:17:28 We just go and deal with it when it when it comes forward.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:33 We're watching the sideshow that's taking place. We're watching all of the mayhem
01:17:33 --> 01:17:37 and political courage or lack thereof.
01:17:37 --> 01:17:43 In dealing with all these nominees and watching the machinations of the media
01:17:43 --> 01:17:51 and how they're trying to reinvent themselves, I guess, so they won't get persecuted or canceled.
01:17:51 --> 01:17:54 Well, it depends on which group they fear, right?
01:17:56 --> 01:18:00 But there was one thing I wanted to do before I got off the air today,
01:18:00 --> 01:18:03 and that was to apologize to the family of Jordan Neely.
01:18:03 --> 01:18:07 Even though I wasn't on the jury, I don't live in New York City.
01:18:08 --> 01:18:13 As a black person, I want to apologize to them because I was hoping that they
01:18:13 --> 01:18:16 would be on the winning side this go around.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:21 I don't have anything personal against Daniel Penny.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:29 He did serve his country, and I think that played a major role in why he was acquitted.
01:18:31 --> 01:18:37 But, you know, I don't I don't know if living with that in your conscience is
01:18:37 --> 01:18:39 enough punishment for him.
01:18:39 --> 01:18:41 And, you know, there were some people.
01:18:43 --> 01:18:51 John McCain's daughter got on and was like, you know, basically gleeful and
01:18:51 --> 01:18:56 was trying to say, well, you know, you know, he shouldn't have been tried in the first place.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:01 And it was like, I responded, he literally killed another human being.
01:19:02 --> 01:19:07 Now, if he was in service to his country and he was off to war,
01:19:07 --> 01:19:10 you know, in combat, okay.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:17 You know, I just felt that he should have some kind of accountability for not
01:19:17 --> 01:19:20 having self-restraint.
01:19:20 --> 01:19:27 It's one thing okay to deal with somebody that you feel might be threatening
01:19:27 --> 01:19:33 other people okay you intervened you stepped in okay,
01:19:34 --> 01:19:39 Even if you felt he was getting ready to do something physical, you held him back.
01:19:40 --> 01:19:44 But at some point in time, it should have kicked in. And I don't know if it
01:19:44 --> 01:19:47 was adrenaline or whatever, but you should have let him go. Right.
01:19:48 --> 01:19:50 You didn't need to choke him out.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:58 He wasn't he had not done anything to justify being choked out and you killing him that way.
01:19:59 --> 01:20:02 And there's other people that always say, well, he might have been on drugs
01:20:02 --> 01:20:03 or whatever. It doesn't matter.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:13 Because even if he was, the action of Daniel Penny triggered it to be fatal, right?
01:20:14 --> 01:20:19 Because other than him maybe having a bad experience, maybe him ranting and
01:20:19 --> 01:20:25 raving and all that, maybe that was all the drugs was going to affect him if he was on drugs, right?
01:20:25 --> 01:20:31 But again, the whole issue of this show is how we stigmatize mental illness.
01:20:32 --> 01:20:37 Brother Neely was out in the street primarily because of mental illness.
01:20:38 --> 01:20:41 Whether he couldn't afford the medication, whether he refused to take it,
01:20:41 --> 01:20:44 whatever his circumstance was.
01:20:44 --> 01:20:49 And I'm hoping to get somebody connected with him to come on the podcast.
01:20:49 --> 01:20:56 But he didn't deserve to die in that subway train, no matter how he was acting.
01:20:56 --> 01:21:02 And as somebody that has ridden public transportation in multiple cities in
01:21:02 --> 01:21:09 my life, you're going to have people acting erratic, right?
01:21:10 --> 01:21:14 Because public transportation is relatively inexpensive.
01:21:15 --> 01:21:21 So, you know, they can't afford a car and they can only walk so far.
01:21:22 --> 01:21:26 They can scrape up a couple of dollars to get on a bus or get on a train.
01:21:26 --> 01:21:28 Homeless people are going to do that.
01:21:29 --> 01:21:33 And a lot of people that are dealing with homelessness are dealing with mental illness.
01:21:34 --> 01:21:39 And other health factors as well. Because they're exposed to stuff.
01:21:40 --> 01:21:45 Because they don't have adequate shelter. They don't have adequate nutrition. Right? Right.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:55 So, you know, I, you know, to Daniel Penny's legal team, you did your job,
01:21:55 --> 01:21:58 you defended your client. He was acquitted.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:02 I'm not mad at y'all for that. That's what the Constitution says.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:04 He's supposed to have a fair trial.
01:22:04 --> 01:22:07 If he desires to have one, he got one.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:13 But I just I just wish that the jury had felt compelled enough.
01:22:14 --> 01:22:18 And maybe they didn't have enough options. You know, they didn't want to deal
01:22:18 --> 01:22:21 with they don't want to hit them with manslaughter.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:27 And maybe they felt criminally negligent. Homicide was too harsh.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:30 Maybe they should have been given another option. I don't know.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:35 I know is that he killed a human being that needed help.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:41 He didn't need to die. He needed help. If you held him until the authorities
01:22:41 --> 01:22:49 came and he got the help that he needed, then the hero status would apply.
01:22:50 --> 01:22:53 But, you know, Batman is a fictional character.
01:22:54 --> 01:23:00 We don't need real life Batman. We don't need real life vigilantes. We don't need it.
01:23:01 --> 01:23:08 Because unlike in the comic book, real-life vigilantes have real-life consequences
01:23:08 --> 01:23:14 that are devastating to communities, and especially to the family members of
01:23:14 --> 01:23:15 those people that they kill.
01:23:16 --> 01:23:19 And I know the politically correct thing, say, is unalive and stuff.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:22 He killed that man.
01:23:25 --> 01:23:29 And I guess he'll deal with that in the afterlife or whatever,
01:23:29 --> 01:23:33 but he should have had to atone for it while he was here.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:38 So I apologize to the Neely family that, that Mr.
01:23:38 --> 01:23:45 Penny will not face any atonement from the legal system for what he did to Jordan.
01:23:45 --> 01:23:52 But because there were other people that were highlighted in my podcast, um,
01:23:53 --> 01:23:59 I died that same week, and I believe in the other cases, all those people,
01:24:00 --> 01:24:05 all those victims, their attacker, their murderer and stuff,
01:24:06 --> 01:24:10 are seeking, are getting justice.
01:24:10 --> 01:24:14 They are going to atone for that.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:24 So it's very easy to make the statement based on the observation that black
01:24:24 --> 01:24:29 lives are still not as relevant as they should be, not as important as it should be.
01:24:30 --> 01:24:35 And you can even take it a step further with people with mental illness or people
01:24:35 --> 01:24:43 that are homeless that we don't respect them or don't give them the help or
01:24:43 --> 01:24:47 the support that they need. I think support's a better word.
01:24:48 --> 01:24:56 All I can really ask now that that trial is over and that jury verdict has been given.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:01 And I have to accept it just like any other verdict that's taken place,
01:25:01 --> 01:25:04 because that's how we maintain a system.
01:25:05 --> 01:25:09 But the overall challenge, I think, is that we just have to do better.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:15 We have to be more sensitive. We have to be more empathetic. We have to be more aware.
01:25:16 --> 01:25:24 And I think if we are that, then we become better jurors and even more importantly, better voters.
01:25:25 --> 01:25:33 Because we can't elect people who think that killing people is okay, right?
01:25:33 --> 01:25:39 You know, let's celebrate the death of a person who was very vulnerable.
01:25:40 --> 01:25:43 You know, any elected official that's glorifying that moment,
01:25:44 --> 01:25:49 I sincerely hope that you are no longer an elected official when the voters
01:25:49 --> 01:25:51 get to make that decision again.
01:25:53 --> 01:25:59 You know, we have to be better informed and more empathetic and more caring
01:25:59 --> 01:26:03 to make that wish of mine come true.
01:26:04 --> 01:26:09 We're all in this thing together and we all have our, we're all human.
01:26:09 --> 01:26:11 So we all have our comfort zones. I get all that.
01:26:12 --> 01:26:15 But we've got to embrace each other.
01:26:16 --> 01:26:21 And not necessarily physically, but at least from the heart.
01:26:22 --> 01:26:28 And I think if we are going to be a society that really is going to be an example
01:26:28 --> 01:26:34 for the world, then we really have to tap into that empathy.
01:26:34 --> 01:26:39 We really have to have to commit to being knowledgeable. Right.
01:26:40 --> 01:26:47 Anyway, I just I just felt that I needed to say that, especially in light of
01:26:47 --> 01:26:50 the episode. We this great episode we just had.
01:26:50 --> 01:26:54 And, you know, just just my experience from a political standpoint,
01:26:55 --> 01:26:59 from a law enforcement standpoint, we just we just got to do better, y'all.
01:27:00 --> 01:27:06 The holidays are right around the corner or we're in holiday season, I guess.
01:27:06 --> 01:27:08 Now that Thanksgiving has passed and Christmas is coming.
01:27:09 --> 01:27:12 And this is a time where people are dealing with stuff.
01:27:13 --> 01:27:20 It's more than, you know, for some people, this is a tough part of the year.
01:27:22 --> 01:27:25 So I just want people to be sensitive about that. Go on about your lives.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:30 Enjoy your victories. Enjoy your gifts. Enjoy your friendships and all that.
01:27:31 --> 01:27:36 But just understand that not everybody is going to be as fortunate and that
01:27:36 --> 01:27:43 we need to have a place in our heart to understand that. All right.
01:27:44 --> 01:27:47 Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.
01:27:49 --> 01:28:35 Music.
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