Inclusion Initiative, IDEAS Generation, & The Justice of Investigative Reporting Featuring Grace Yung Foster, Dan Egol, and Jerry Mitchell

[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of a Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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[00:01:19] Hello, welcome to another moment Erik Fleming. I am your host Erik Fleming and we have a packed show today.

[00:01:45] I hope again that you are inspired and entertained by the guests that are going to come on.

[00:01:51] But right now, it is time for a moment of news with Grace G.

[00:02:02] Thanks Erik. The US Supreme Court ruled that states cannot disqualify federal candidates based on insurrection, overturning Colorado's decision to exclude Donald Trump from the ballot.

[00:02:20] Alan Weiselberg, former CFO of the Trump Organization, led guilty to perjury related to financial statements.

[00:02:26] President Biden and Donald Trump both performed well in statewide nominating contests, highlighted by an impressive showing on Super Tuesday.

[00:02:34] Nikki Haley, who won both the District of Columbia and Vermont Republican primaries, suspended her campaign.

[00:02:41] Congressman Dean Phillips also ended his bid for the Democratic presidential nomination.

[00:02:46] Independent US Senator Kirsten Sinema of Arizona announced that she will not seek re-election.

[00:02:52] President Biden and Donald Trump had contrasting visits to the Texas border, with Biden calling for bipartisan immigration reform and Trump criticizing the current administration's border policies.

[00:03:05] Alabama's legislature passed a bill to protect the in vitro fertilization industry following a state Supreme Court decision that frozen embryos should be considered children.

[00:03:14] President Biden signed a short-term spending bill to prevent a partial government shutdown, with deadlines to fund various parts of the government set for March 8th and March 22nd.

[00:03:24] Congress then swiftly passed a major budget bill to avert the March 8th deadline.

[00:03:30] The LGBTQ advocacy group obtained a temporary restraining order against Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton's demands for information on their work with transgender minors.

[00:03:40] CVS and Walgreens announced they will begin selling the abortion pill MIFA Pristone in several states.

[00:03:46] Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, vetoed a bill that would have prohibited minors under 16 from using social media.

[00:03:54] Colorado Paramedic was sentenced to five years for the 2019 death of Elijah McLean, a black man who died after being restrained by police and injected with a sedative by medics.

[00:04:05] And a New Mexico jury found the armorer of the movie Rust guilty of involuntary manslaughter.

[00:04:12] I am Grace G, and this has been A Moment of News.

[00:04:24] Alright, Grace. And thanks for that moment of news. It is good to have you back.

[00:04:33] I really missed you and I think the audience missed you too and I'm glad everything has worked out the way it is supposed to have gone for you.

[00:04:44] Alright, speaking about Grace. That happens to be the name of my next guest.

[00:04:49] Her name, when my first guest I should say is Grace Young Foster.

[00:04:56] Grace Young Foster is the founder and CEO of the Inclusion Initiative, a tech platform for professionals that is closing the opportunity gap for adoptees of color and foster care alumna.

[00:05:10] At three years old she was orphaned in abandoned at a local market in South Korea and eventually ended up in the US foster care system to be adopted.

[00:05:21] Her very difficult experience as a transracial adoptee and foster youth in a predominantly white community influenced her internalized racism and her decades long pursuit of finding white belonging.

[00:05:34] Now she has created that belonging for those who share these intersectional identities through her company, the Inclusion Initiative.

[00:05:44] Grace is a former nonprofit executive with 15 years of experience in both the corporate and nonprofit sectors.

[00:05:51] She holds an MBA from NYU Stern School of Business.

[00:05:58] She also holds an associate degree in business administration and a BA in communications from the University of Minnesota Twin Cities.

[00:06:08] Ladies and gentlemen, this might distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Grace Young Foster.

[00:06:29] Alright Grace Young Foster, how are you doing ma'am? You doing good?

[00:06:35] I'm doing great. Thank you for having me.

[00:06:38] Well it's an honor for me to have you on.

[00:06:42] You deal with adoptions and we'll get into why in a minute but that's a personal issue for me.

[00:06:52] I have had a privilege of and people on the podcast I heard we mentioned before but I have had the privilege of being on a board dealing with adoptions

[00:07:02] in the state of Mississippi.

[00:07:06] And it's not easy work to engage in you with think that it will be some ease into it but is really, really complicated.

[00:07:17] I think you're going to help the audience kind of understand those difficulties that people have.

[00:07:24] But before we get deep into the interview there's always a starting point for me and that's a quote.

[00:07:35] And so it's either something that you might have said, something you might have written or is something somebody else said that's related to the topic of the work that we're going to discuss.

[00:07:46] So this is your quote.

[00:07:49] There are those of us who have the great privilege of doing this work because we want to do it.

[00:07:58] Let us who lead in this space, remember that.

[00:08:02] Let us honor those of us who do not carry this privilege as it is for them we do this work.

[00:08:11] What does that quote mean you?

[00:08:14] Yeah, I love that you lifted that because our community is so vast.

[00:08:22] The adoptive community and folks who are foster care alum.

[00:08:28] We are a community that's often not represented in many of the spaces of our everyday lives in society at work at school.

[00:08:42] And so that quote what it really means to me is that there are so many in our community who do not have platforms or voices right that are listened to.

[00:08:57] And lived experience is such a crucial component of understanding right how we make the experience of adoption of foster care mainly for the people with lived experience but also those who are taking youth into their homes to support them love them, great family.

[00:09:19] But without centering the lived experience, we can't do that in a way that honors right those who are most impacted.

[00:09:30] And so those without voices or platforms that are listened to it's really important for folks like me and many of my friends in this space who are doing this work to remember right that we are honoring them.

[00:09:46] And so that's why that quote is really important to me. So thank you.

[00:09:53] What is the inclusion initiative and why was it important to start?

[00:10:01] The inclusion initiative is elevating the future of work for adoptees of color and foster care alumni.

[00:10:12] There's a real opportunity gap that many of us with lived experience face as we build careers, we enter the professional space because of the barriers and challenges right that we've navigated through and still navigate through because of our lived experience.

[00:10:33] And so we as adoptees or foster care alum, you know, we don't choose to be in those positions. But as we enter our adult lives, there are a lot of barriers, challenges, misconceptions that we have to overcome to get to the same opportunities, the same levels in our careers and, you know,

[00:11:01] professional reach our professional goals that many of our peers don't face. And so for there are many adults in our community, many students in our community, many young professionals in our community who have experienced a significant opportunity gap because there's a lack of resources provided and a lack of visibility and network provided for those of us with this unique lived experience.

[00:11:30] So that's why the inclusion initiative was built.

[00:11:34] So talk to me about these terms, attachment disorder and reactive attachment disorder.

[00:11:43] There's some you kind of highlight it. You've written, you've got a series of newsletters or what you have a newsletter and you have a series of essays that's been, that's on LinkedIn that talks about your experience.

[00:12:00] And in the second newsletter, I think it was second newsletter. You talk to you use these terms, talk to me about what those terms mean and how much of an impact it has as far as adoptions go.

[00:12:20] So, or those terms attachment disorder and reactive attachment disorder is associated with trauma and separation for kids that experience those things.

[00:12:36] And in general, right what it means is kids that have been taken from their families, their original caretakers, right, their moms and dads, their birth moms and dads.

[00:12:55] And have had that cut of separation from the only thing they've ever known and the only kind of love they've ever experienced.

[00:13:08] And to be placed into an environment where they are not with their parents of birth or families of origin, or cultures of origin or the communities of origin.

[00:13:22] This very traumatic is really traumatic and kids as young as babies, and especially older kids, it impacts them deeply. And it can cause what's known as attachment disorder or reactive attachment disorder, especially when there's multiple traumatic events that have happened to a child where they start to feel and believe that they can't

[00:13:51] trust people to take care of them because of these traumatic experiences. So, they don't attach to the caretakers that they're placed into, right, the new caretakers and a new home.

[00:14:07] And because they don't attach, right, they don't form bonds or relationships which impact them both, you know, from a young age and it can impact them all the way into their adulthood

[00:14:20] about how they're forming relationships and how they feel security connection and belonging.

[00:14:27] So, you're cognitive journey as far as adoption goes. And I guess that's the best way I can describe it because you don't know who your parents were.

[00:14:48] Right, you have no idea, no connection. And your first memory I guess was when you were three?

[00:15:00] I think so. Yeah, my age is unknown.

[00:15:06] It's a best guess and there are many adoptees in my the had my situation right where they don't know their names, they don't know their age, they don't know their place of birth.

[00:15:19] So, at about three, right, I remember being in orphanages in Korea and that's really where my life journey starts for me.

[00:15:30] And you spend about two years in that kind of system in Korea before this American couple who you described as upper middle class professional educators came in got you, right?

[00:15:49] That's right. So they never officially adopted you, they just kind of took you in kind of explain that process.

[00:16:00] Yes, the intention was to adopt so I was a transnational adoptee pending adoptive I should say and their intention right was to add me as a member of their family in the United States.

[00:16:16] But after about two years of me living in their home and integrating with the family they already had, they had multiple children of biologically.

[00:16:28] They decided that I wasn't the right child for them. And they decided to separate and terminate their parental, their guardianship of me and release me into the foster system.

[00:16:45] And that's where it looking back when we were talking about these terms about attachment disorder reactive attachment disorder.

[00:16:54] That's when you kind of pinpoint your in yourself awareness, that's what you were going through and dealing with them right?

[00:17:05] And it obviously started with the initial separation from my birth family. And I'm not exactly sure what happened, right?

[00:17:14] But obviously there were some traumatic events, the experience in the orphanage was very traumatic. And then so you can only imagine right being separated yet again from a family who I had understood was going to be my permanent family.

[00:17:30] That was very harmful psychologically to me as a young child at that time. And yes, that is when I started to really realize at that very young age of seven right? I can't trust anybody.

[00:17:46] I can't depend on anybody. I can't lean on anybody. I have to take care of myself. I have to you know do what I went into survival mode essentially.

[00:17:56] So how well it's got to be pervasive because a lot of children go through that.

[00:18:04] How intentional now that we have a term for it, that means there's been some intent. But how intentional is the system in recognizing the trauma that these children are going through and trying to figure out ways

[00:18:24] to deal with it, to help a child work through that?

[00:18:34] I think there is a lot more progress now than there was back then. So attachment disorder was known and talked about.

[00:18:47] But really I think at later stages of a child's need, right? There were behavioral things that were happening.

[00:18:55] There were challenges at the parents and the child were facing together, right? And they needed help. And that's when these terms and some of the support would come into play.

[00:19:10] But that's kind of backwards, right? Parents should know about this ahead of time. They should be educated about this even before, right?

[00:19:18] They sign up to become a part of you know the care system. And back when I was having this experience, right? It was not it was not the first I guess line of support that parents received.

[00:19:38] And going into my particular situation, right? These particular initial caretakers that brought me into the US didn't realize, right? These were the things that I would be going through.

[00:19:53] I would have a lot of trauma. I would need many layers of support beyond just being a normal five year old. And so I think now it has improved, right?

[00:20:07] I think parents are more educated than they were 30 years ago, but there's still a lot of work that needs to be done in terms of providing this kind of education awareness and support systems in place for families and for children before the process even starts.

[00:20:28] Yeah. So your organization, are you well? So do you kind of you kind of help people deal with that trauma on both sides? You kind of advise potential parents as well as people that are alumni as you refer to them?

[00:20:52] I have really wonderful friends in the space that are doing that. I have my friend, Austrid who is the founder of adoption mosaic. She provides those resources.

[00:21:03] I have a new friend named Isaac Eder. He's the founder of identity. He's a transracial adoptee from the black community that provides those resources to parents, families and adoptees themselves. My company is really focused on kind of the layers of navigating adoption, navigating just some of the right responses or behaviors that we've developed.

[00:21:33] Because of our trauma or experiences as foster alarm or adoptees of color and how they show up for us in the workplace and how we can navigate those in a positive and approachable way where we can support each other and elevate each other and really work to, like I said, close this opportunity gap that we're facing because some of the things that we're doing is really important.

[00:22:03] Some of these things can hold us back. They can hold us back from even simple things like asking for help or seeking out mentors or understanding what our boundaries are.

[00:22:16] And so my company is really focused on providing this network of support, but also network of opportunity with these kinds of resources. So we can elevate our careers and elevate our professional opportunities both for each other, but like the broader community at large.

[00:22:38] So you mentioned, you're talking about workplace and one of the common themes that people have been addressing, especially people of color been addressing have been code switching.

[00:22:54] You talk about this persona you created in your youth called sweet grace. And you describe sweet grace as your first active code switching, kind of talk about that and the importance of people recognizing that in that environment.

[00:23:22] Yeah, when the first US family relinquished me and I went into the foster care system. I was placed into a home that had a lot of kids.

[00:23:32] And they had adopted most of them. We had other foster kids who I saw come in the home and leave the home.

[00:23:41] I saw some of the adopted kids, you write, send away to boarding schools, stuff like that.

[00:23:46] And so I really learned early, right, at seven years old, that I need to be what I think these parents want me to be so that I can secure my place here and that there's no threat of me being relinquished again and put in the system again and given up again.

[00:24:11] So yeah, I developed what I thought was the grace that they thought they were getting right.

[00:24:20] I was often described as the sweet quiet meek little Asian girl and you know I grew up in a predominantly white community and the parents were white.

[00:24:34] So you know, all the Asian stereotypes come into play there too, especially for Asian women Asian girls. And so I played that part right.

[00:24:44] I knew that they thought they were getting this sweet person, this angel.

[00:24:51] And so I knew I needed to play that part to feel secure in my ability to stay in that family.

[00:25:01] And it's something that unfortunately a lot of foster youth, a lot of adoptees feel like they have to do when they're placed into home situations that they've experienced right placements multiple times.

[00:25:20] And it's just an unfortunate reality for a lot of youth in the system.

[00:25:25] Now you said they had a lot of kids at some point I think they had at least 20 children in the house at one given time.

[00:25:37] It was a lot.

[00:25:39] Yep.

[00:25:41] What kind of house was that? I mean, I was trying to envision it what I was reading about that.

[00:25:46] Kind of how's the these people live here? How to get even afford the house note or whatever let alone trying to take care of 20 children.

[00:25:57] Yeah, and I think it's I think it's a piece of the system that clearly was very broken at the time, right.

[00:26:08] I think any two parents no matter their intention, right and no matter the resources they have.

[00:26:18] Even if they're super wealthy people 20 children is just too it's too much it's too much for two people to really take on and be able to give.

[00:26:28] They're all in everything they need to give to every single individual child and.

[00:26:33] They may try and again attention I understand intentions can be good, but who does it impact the most right and impacts the kids that are in that situation who are not getting what they need both emotionally and whatever other resources they might not have.

[00:26:50] The house that I grew up in at that time. It was a modest home they were not wealthy by any means we never wanted or needed for anything right they provided and you have to remember right that there are government stipends that are given to foster parents and adoptive parents so.

[00:27:13] You know, I think that was helpful in terms of us having enough clothing and food to eat and all that kind of stuff.

[00:27:20] And in some ways I grew up fairly privileged because right there's many youth in my situation that don't have all their basic needs met.

[00:27:31] And I was able to go to great schools and you know really be able to be educated in ways that a lot of folks in my a lot of foster youth or adoptees don't get that opportunity.

[00:27:45] But at the same time right there was also a very real tangible piece of just gap in resources that I needed in terms of emotional support mental health support.

[00:28:00] Even just a sense of belonging in a family because there's so many of us it was hard to know right where you belong and how you are at a real part of that family when the parents had so much on their plates and had so much demanded from them.

[00:28:22] So yeah, I mean it was not it was a modest home and social economic class you know we were I would say consider working class so yeah that's what that environment was like.

[00:28:37] So fast forward now you get to adulthood and you meet this person that you really, really like but you kind of hold this person off for like eight years before y'all decided to get married and have children is that how that is that how that went down.

[00:28:59] I love that you you've read all my all the articles that I share.

[00:29:05] Yeah no, I met this person very early in my educational higher educational journey part of that right because it took me nine years to finish my bachelor's degree and so part of that was really me needing to I understood at that age that I was not going to get married.

[00:29:28] So I think that I needed to make sure that I could take care of myself I needed to achieve the goals and aspirations.

[00:29:38] That I had otherwise I would never be happy in any relationship and I think regardless right if you're adopted or foster care alum right that those are realizations many, many young adults have and i'm glad right that I persevered and had that persistence.

[00:29:57] To accomplish those goals, but the other half of it yes was the.

[00:30:07] I'm needing to be able to work through and navigate my experiences of not having connection, not really having family and bonds and people that I trusted and allowing someone into my life where they would see right not the sweet grace.

[00:30:31] It took a long time for me to be able to feel safe, secure and really trust right that this person was in the relationship for all the right reasons what she was you know we're happily married and have a little one but yeah it's quite a journey for someone with my lived experience.

[00:30:56] Being a mom has invoked certain emotions you kind of touch on a little bit about I guess dealing with nurturing and dealing with protection that I think you are you are incorporating in the work that you're doing is that a fair statement to say.

[00:31:24] Yeah it definitely parenthood.

[00:31:29] Definitely.

[00:31:32] Changes how you.

[00:31:36] I guess re experience your own childhood as an adoptee or foster care alum and there's a lot of triggers that happen but there's also a lot of healing that happens.

[00:31:52] And yeah I mean it is completely a part of who we are when we become parents that becomes a big identity for us and but our foster alum or our adoptee identity doesn't go away right so all those identities are intersectional we talked about you know intersectionality a lot I know you do too.

[00:32:13] And how that really shows up in all areas of our lives including right how we show up professionally and how we where we choose to work what careers we choose all of that is impacted by all of our life experience so yeah it is a part of the work that I do.

[00:32:32] So all right imagine I'm still an elected official and I come to you and I say Grace is there a particular bill or a law that you want to see to help make adoptions foster care that it should improve the system what would you suggest to me.

[00:33:02] Yeah I think your question is good and our elected officials have so much influence on the experience of adoption on the experience of the foster care system for both the parents and those with lived experience as the adoptees or foster youth.

[00:33:28] And I think you know one of the really big missing pieces that I hear over and over again from our community right is the understanding of what the actual kids that go through this with their actual lived experiences.

[00:33:52] And I think you know i'm not sure what that bill looks like but I think we have for so long right our society has really centered the agencies, the institutions you know those broader organizations that facilitate these adoptions or facilitate these home placements and there's a lot of emphasis on that right.

[00:34:21] And part of that is because there's a lot of money exchanged between those institutions and those parents etc etc so it is a really big deal to our government right that these institutions continue to be supported and funded etc etc but my question always is what about the kids.

[00:34:46] What about the kids how are you understanding what's impacting them in real time to make their experience better because they're the ones coming through these systems whether good or bad experiences that they have to live and carry that for the rest of their lives and it shapes who they are it also shapes who they choose to be for society.

[00:35:16] There are a lot of us that are in the social impact space there's so many in the nonprofit sector that are want to work in government that want to work in social work that want to create companies to make these experiences better.

[00:35:32] So that's fantastic right so we need to create policies where we're thinking about what is the experience of these kids in real time in these home placements so that we can continue to help inspire right these kids to want to participate in our society in these really good ways.

[00:35:58] And I think that that's a really big missing piece is centering the lived experience of these youth and I want that to be the very first thing institutions and families do when they start talking about adopting a child or fostering a child.

[00:36:18] Alright so last question real quick if you get traveled back in time and talk to let's say sweet grace right what would you not you know based on what you have experienced as an adult what you've learned what would you tell sweet grace to what would be the one thing you tell her to make her feel more comfortable about where she is.

[00:36:48] Yeah that question makes me a little emotional to be honest I would go back and tell sweet grace that she is enough.

[00:37:02] She didn't feel that she was enough for anybody so she always had to prove herself and do more and be more and hide right the parts of her that she thought would not be accepted by her families.

[00:37:21] So I think if I had heard that even once growing up that would have made such a huge difference and so that's what I hope like my company the inclusion initiative is really helping to change at least for adults.

[00:37:40] You know if we're not hearing it as youth, I want us to hear it as adults so that we can move forward together and continue to elevate in that way still.

[00:37:49] Alright so I don't want this I'm not trying to be like Oprah I ain't trying to get you tear jerking but I did want to ask that question because it does relate to what you do.

[00:37:59] So this is the time now where you plug how people can get in touch with you or get in touch with the inclusion initiative.

[00:38:07] Thank you so much yeah you can find me most easily on LinkedIn grace young foster on LinkedIn and please connect with me.

[00:38:18] We're going to talk about it with us at the inclusion initiative.com we love to have you if you have lived experience we'd love to have you in our network and our community if you're an ally or want to be a partner or supporter please get in touch with us and just help us close this opportunity gap.

[00:38:38] I appreciate you being on this podcast with two doing this kind of work. I know it's not easy but it is necessary because as I was talking to another guest it's about the humanity right it's about making sure that all of us as human beings reach our greatest potential so I thank you for for taking this on.

[00:39:07] Well thank you for having me thank you for caring and being such an important ally to our communities Eric appreciate you.

[00:39:16] Yes ma'am all right guys and we're going to catch up on the other side.

[00:39:36] All right and we are back and so now it's time for my next guest and that guest is Dan Eagle.

[00:39:50] Dan Eagle has over 10 years of experience in the social impact sector with a focus on building cultures and systems that advance inclusion diversity equity access and social justice ideas.

[00:40:06] Dan is passionate about co-creating and executing strategies and programs that foster leadership and development and community development excuse me as well as advancing the mission in vision of ideas generation a nonprofit he co-founded to cultivate and sustain the next generation of ideas leaders.

[00:40:29] Ladies and gentlemen it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Dan Eagle.

[00:40:50] All right Dan Eagle how you doing sir.

[00:40:53] I'm doing well it's nice and early here in Los Angeles look grateful to be here.

[00:40:58] Yes and I am I'm glad that you are up and about early so we could do this interview by greatly appreciate you coming on and I want to do what I normally do at the beginning of interviews is that I give the person a quote right and it's either something that I'm not going to do.

[00:41:21] Right and it's either something that they have said something that they have written or something relating to the work or the topic we're going to discuss.

[00:41:30] So this is your quote intersectionality has given many advocates a way to frame their circumstances and to fight for their visibility and inclusion.

[00:41:44] What does that quote mean to you?

[00:41:47] For me that quote is an important framing of how we approach the work of honoring people's stories their experiences and co-creating cultures and organizations where those stories and experiences can really thrive.

[00:42:02] I think the American story has been one where there have been many experiences that have not seen the light of day but should have have not been given the due respect that they deserve.

[00:42:13] And intersectionality the framework from doctor Kimberly Krenshaw gives us a way to understand the nuance and complexity of who we are.

[00:42:20] And to shed light on some of the lesser visible things that are important to us as human beings.

[00:42:26] So Dan talk to me about ideas generation what is it and what made it motivated you to help start it.

[00:42:38] Sure so ideas generation is a nonprofit that works in the leadership and workforce development space specifically for Millennial and Gen Z folks that are committed to advancing ideas which is our acronym for inclusion diversity equity access and social justice.

[00:42:54] And the premise of the organization is that our communities, our organizations, our schools, our religious institutions need these values to ensure that everyone can be their best selves and also address some of the historical injustices that communities have faith.

[00:43:10] And in an organization or workplace or just a society where we have five generations currently interacting our goals to try and figure out how do we honor the legacy of those who come before us and advanced issues around ideas and make sure that this work remains relevant, salient and impactful for generations to come.

[00:43:31] I come to this work alongside two incredible folks, Minion, Tolen and Hannah Mack the three of us work colleagues at an organization called Cook Ross which has recently been rebranded as be equitable under the leadership of Michael Leslie, a mail car.

[00:43:45] And the organization was a diversity equity and inclusion consulting firm or DEI firm and it was my first job out of college I did not have language for DEI or as I call it now ideas which is the EI plus access and social justice.

[00:44:02] But my life story had I think always put me on a path to want to explore and understand those values and principles and action to make sure that they weren't just applicable to me or others but really to everyone.

[00:44:12] And Minion, this was really her idea as one of the rising leaders in our space and someone who would regularly be the youngest person in the room in our organization whether it was with client organizations or in conferences and we would go to these spaces and look out and see amazing folks who had done really important work.

[00:44:31] We wouldn't be here without them.

[00:44:33] However, we didn't see particularly millennials and Gen Zers in the formal DEI space which was odd to us given that we knew that our generational peers were really passionate about this work.

[00:44:44] And part of the reason we saw was just that the folks who have been trailblazers and leaders in this space in whatever professional or personal context they might find themselves were so busy doing the work that they didn't have the capacity to really think about what would a formal onboarding process look like to bring on that next generation of change leaders.

[00:45:03] And so idea generation is our attempt to try and put some resources and structure behind those efforts to partner across generations and make sure that everyone can really thrive.

[00:45:13] You know, it's really, really cool how people are creative with acronyms right?

[00:45:18] So when I saw that and saw the genesis of it, I was like, that's pretty neat.

[00:45:26] So we're talking about inclusion, diversity, equity, access and social justice.

[00:45:34] Why did you feel that the access and social justice needed to be incorporated in the title and in the work?

[00:45:45] It's an important question, especially given how the DEI field has come under much more public scrutiny and conversation over the last few years.

[00:45:54] And I think part of the challenge that's underlying that controversy is a lack of understanding of what is the actual substance of this work?

[00:46:01] Why does it exist? What are people trying to accomplish with it?

[00:46:04] And I don't necessarily think we're doing ourselves as a field any favors by having a bunch of determinology to describe the work because it creates confusion.

[00:46:12] So recognizing that we were very intentional about using ideas as our framework for a few reasons.

[00:46:19] First, we wanted to acknowledge it in a lot of the more traditional DEI conversations, especially because they've come out of our nation's history and inability to I think really reconcile with our racial past and present.

[00:46:32] And many of the conversations around the DEI are anchored in questions of racial justice as they should be.

[00:46:38] However, we also felt like given the world that we live in now, given the pandemic, given the rise of technology and also to acknowledge the experience of folks with disabilities and neurodiversity that access was a really important part of the conversation that was often being overlooked.

[00:46:54] When we're thinking about intersectionality, that for us felt really important because folks with disability and experiences in neurodiversity are actually the largest minority group in the world.

[00:47:03] And so for us, access was both an intentional inclusion of that experience as important in our work, but it also meant expanding what we meant by access to really think about, for example, you and I are having this conversation in different parts of the country.

[00:47:19] So we have access to technology that is facilitating our ability to connect.

[00:47:23] We're having this conversation in English, so the assumption is that this is the best language for us to be using to communicate where it may not be the case for everyone that that is the chosen mode of communication.

[00:47:34] And so for us, access helps us understand the barriers to participation, the cultural barriers that may prevent people from being able to do their best work to engage fully to have meaningful relationships

[00:47:46] and to also acknowledge the history of disability and neurodiversity in our society.

[00:47:51] With social justice, this came out because for us a lot of the diversity work that we've seen done in organization has sort of been co-opted by the need for a business case and in the capitalist system has been couched as an economic driver of growth.

[00:48:06] And that is in some cases been the only avenue to make sure that those work could take place.

[00:48:12] And in those contexts, I think that it's better to have that as an entryway rather than nothing.

[00:48:17] However, for me and for my colleagues, this work is not about putting more money in the bottom line of organizations if that is a byproduct of good and meaningful work that advances racial equity, disability justice and everything else that falls under this umbrella.

[00:48:31] Then that's wonderful, but for us this is about building a better society for everyone and making sure that regardless of your identity, regardless of community we're born in regardless of your hopes for yourselves.

[00:48:43] Everyone has an equitable opportunity to reach their full potential and for us social justice is about that never ending commitment, recognizing historical and systemic injustices and prioritizing addressing those first.

[00:48:57] So one of the concerns I had when 2020, the summer of 2020 happened and that all these corporations started trying to tap into people like you and organizations like ideas generation to help them improve their face.

[00:49:23] And you kind of addressed that in answer when you're talking about social justice because their objective was to increase their bottom line by saying, hey black folks we're not racist.

[00:49:35] You know what I'm saying? Do business with us.

[00:49:38] But now we see that there's a push to kick out or deemphasize the I.

[00:49:51] What is your take on that are you seeing the same thing or you're encountering that or well, yeah just just give me your opinion about what you see happening now basically four years later.

[00:50:06] So the pushback that I see now and a lot of the current conversations around the state of DEI.

[00:50:14] I look at in the larger trajectory of social justice and social change movements, there are always ebbs and flows of support and resistance.

[00:50:20] And so while I'm concerned by what feels like a regression to we were committed but perhaps only so much and now that we're concerned about the impact or concerned about progress or we're not feeling immediate results.

[00:50:34] We're going to run ag on our public commitments. It's certainly concerning, but it's also not the full story.

[00:50:40] And so what I mean by that is that you've seen many organizations both in the corporate world government agencies nonprofits that really are doubling down on their commitments, even if they have in this moment of increased scrutiny and pressure to have pivot and reformulate how they're thinking about the work.

[00:50:54] Part of the biggest challenge that I've seen and is something that I continue to perhaps harp on is that there isn't consensus about what this work actually is neither from organizations that are taking it on institutionally nor from external practitioners or even internal leaders who are charged with trying to affect these kinds of changes.

[00:51:13] Are we when we talk about DEI discussing particular interventions or programs within organization that are meant to serve particular populations.

[00:51:23] So for example, are we doing organizational culture assessment? Are we coaching leaders? Are we talking about education? Are we talking about building strategies that incorporate these values into the trajectory of an organization or community?

[00:51:35] Are we using this as a lens to review policies, procedures, programs and therefore doing this as a review to think about how does how do these values in principle show up in our work and for all.

[00:51:46] And to me I think all of those things are true and part of the equation but until we as sort of an emerging and developing field can have some consensus about what this work is and what it isn't and perhaps some of the guiding principles that undergird it.

[00:52:01] We're always going to be facing these external challenges where people are concerned about what this is because there's fear in the confusion.

[00:52:08] It's an unknown and until people are really clear about what this work is, why it's necessary, why it's largely being housed in your workplace.

[00:52:20] And is that the best venue for us to be discussing and trying to make change around these topics?

[00:52:26] There I think we'll always be this push and pull. And so one of the things that I've been really encouraged by is that the organizations we tend to work with on the whole are smaller nonprofits because our approach to this work is whole system,

[00:52:43] so that we're looking at all of those dynamics in order for us to be able to engage with the internal, the external and all parts of an organization given the size of our small but mighty team.

[00:52:53] We need to actually partner with smaller systems because we wouldn't be well prepared to serve a Pepsi or Bank of America there just too large given the time and resource intensive approach that we take.

[00:53:03] But with the organizations we do have the privilege of working with they're much more willing to engage in things that I think will actually have longer term impact.

[00:53:12] So for example, one of the keys to our approach that I think would actually help address some of the resistance and concern that people have at a national level about what this work is, is what we call container building.

[00:53:25] So in the summer of 2020, the nation watched horrific police murder of George Floyd and many organizations for the first time we're having this realization that oh my goodness we have to reckon with our racial past and present.

[00:53:39] And immediately said, well now we need to discuss systemic racism and we absolutely do there is no question that this nation needs to have that conversation.

[00:53:47] But for me sitting watching this conversation unfold, if this is the realization you're having for the first time as an institution in 2020 i'm putting all my money on the bet that you're not ready to have that conversation in a way that will actually be meaningful productive lead to change and not actually.

[00:54:04] And the reason why I don't think most organizations are ready is because they haven't invested over the long haul in building the relationship that fills the trust and the ability to have those conversations so that they can actually lead to the outcome that they say they want.

[00:54:19] And so the organizations we work with have all agreed to take on a much longer term process of container building which for us is a series of facilitated exercises and engagement that the whole organization undertake that are sort of like if you played a sport it's like preseason for the I you know I played soccer as a kid growing up and had the privilege of participating in organized sports.

[00:54:41] And I was never allowed to just walk on the field and play you had summer conditioning you had triots you had preseason you had practice every day and only then could the team then go out and play in a match but with the D E I work it seems like most folks are comfortable saying okay we've done nothing to build trust we've done nothing to acknowledge as challenges but today we're going to talk about white supremacy which isn't again an important topic but one that we have not actually prepared people to have productively so i'll end this little ramble by saying.

[00:55:11] That our container building approach is about how do we build relationships in an organization how do we create shared understanding so that when I use the term inclusion and you are accused the term inclusion we're actually having a conversation rooted in shared understanding.

[00:55:25] How are we beginning to build skills to foster trust and repair it knowing that human beings are for flawed we make mistakes no one's perfect myself definitely included but in this work that is so interpersonally important how do we build the skills when you make a mistake to be able to give another person grace in order.

[00:55:41] To repair it but also to acknowledge that trust and harm might have been broken our trust has been broken and harm has been done and we need to actually have skills to repair it so.

[00:55:50] I recognize this is a bit of a longer answer but for me I see glimmers of hope and organizations are willing to put in that investment because even though they may not see the direct benefits of oh we didn't have that conversation around systemic racism in the first few months of working together this prep work actually makes that conversation more possible more impactful and more sustainable when we get.

[00:56:08] Well anytime you give an answer and you use a sports analogy you're in my good graces I love sports analysis talk to me about the Roddenberry fellowship and what winning one has done for you and your work.

[00:56:23] It's honestly been life changing the Roddenberry fellowship has been more than words can possibly express and I would say as someone who's actually never seen Star Trek and they know this you do not actually to be a Star Trek fan to apply for this opportunity.

[00:56:40] It's just I feel like a superhero who could have been on that show not because I am some incredible human being but just because of the amazing caliber of human beings that are part of this program.

[00:56:50] So for those that are not familiar with it the Roddenberry Foundation runs a fellowship program for social justice leaders who are tackling lots of different kinds of topics but are all working to address building more inclusive and equitable society and it's actually the reason why I'm here in Los Angeles is because they have twice annual convenings.

[00:57:09] With the Roddenberry community and that community includes the folks who work at the foundation the current class of fellows and those who have been along the program and ideas generation is a nonprofit that is still trying to figure out how best to be resourced through full and profit channels whether that be individual giving institutional support corporate sponsorship because we do have this opportunity to earn revenue through our partnerships with our clients.

[00:57:38] And Roddenberry was the first national foundation that said we're going to put a stake in your success to believe in what you're doing is important and that we see a role of philanthropy in supporting this mission to build a sustainable pipeline of leaders advancing ideas.

[00:57:53] And so the recognition has been incredibly validating because we've had dozens of conversations with foundations that have not led to the result of funding and it was also I think on a personal level.

[00:58:07] The acknowledgement that they wanted to invest in me as well has been both humbling and

[00:58:14] in a line of work where ideas is bigger than I am it the work is not about me and I'm also a human being who gets exhausted gets frustrated has dreams has goals to have just a moment carved out where I can actually be a little bit selfish in service of the mission to say hey I'm going to take advantage of this opportunity

[00:58:34] and lean into the discomfort of having a more public profile as a result of it has been really good practice and I like I said I feel like I'm on a team of superheroes with my Roddenberry cohort members and being part of this community and it's just it's given me a lot of hope in a time that has felt very dark and tumultuous just to see that there's so many incredible people across the nation doing really meaningful and really important work

[00:58:57] and to have this vibrant network of connections to them definitely make me feel less isolated when the going gets tough in our work.

[00:59:06] Alright so Dan you caught my attention with this piece you wrote for LinkedIn people are not their governments a call for humanity what prompted you to write this piece?

[00:59:23] So on October 7th the world witnessed some horrific attacks in the nation of Israel in the Middle East and I was deeply concerned both by the immediate violence of what to place that day but also very concerned about the rhetoric that was surrounding it because I could foresee what was going to come as a result of what happened which is now as we've seen four or five months of catastrophic war in Gaza and you know the loss of life and security and freedom for the past.

[00:59:52] Freedom for the Palestinian people and just I was concerned that most folks would not have the context or understanding of what has been going on there not just since October 7th but for generations and as someone who is an Israeli citizen although I've never lived there I've received my citizenship through birthright and family.

[01:00:16] I understand how the Netanyahu government operates and how the Israeli government operates and have also seen the rise in anti-Semitism and Islamophobia all over the world and felt like given the work that we do and given the way that I saw this conversation being treated within the DEI field it felt important to me that we actually honor.

[01:00:38] The principles that supposedly guide our work in also addressing the humanity of people on all sides of the issue because I was concerned that I was hearing from folks who are supportive of the state of Israel a lot of labeling that felt inaccurate and incomplete of folks on the other side and similarly a completion of Israelis Jewish people, Diana and recognizing.

[01:01:08] I think that people are more than just the political labels that are attached to them and in particular those labels that you don't get to choose because of the government that reports to represent you even if you didn't vote for that government if you do not choose that government like I didn't choose where I was born I didn't choose my ethnicity or where my family roots are.

[01:01:27] I think that I was seeing people make claims about me and about others like me without knowing and I know that that's an experience that is not just unique to Jewish folks, to Israeli folks.

[01:01:36] It is certainly happening on the on a for folks that are Palestinian or Arab or Muslim and for black folks in any marginalized group this is one of the key features of marginalization that you are represented of your group before an individual and you lose your individuality based on those assumptions about what you're labeled me.

[01:01:52] And so I didn't want it to be the case that we would just forget the humanity of everyone when the death toll started to rise in the response to the October 7th attack that we would forget the horrors of what happened to people in their homes.

[01:02:07] And so for me I certainly don't have the answers but I wanted to make sure that we were reminding ourselves of our own humanity because to the degree that we use labels to describe people.

[01:02:21] It felt like to me I and others were distancing ourselves from our own humanity which was what I was afraid that would be lost and I also was afraid of what people would respond to when I wrote that on LinkedIn because I'm not someone who typically writes very publicly.

[01:02:37] And I know that people are going to be in a state of response that is deeply in pain and reasonably so I mean people's lives are being lost their homes are being lost.

[01:02:45] Their sense of security and safety is being completely compromised and so it's not without justification but I didn't want the us and them dynamic to continue to be exacerbated without understanding the nuance of human experience and the importance of remembering that you can't achieve justice for anyone by pressing anyone else.

[01:03:06] And that's true on all sides and I didn't want that to be lost.

[01:03:11] You know I wrote something long time ago I think I might still have been an elected official or maybe right after you know I was done running for office when you know talking about labels and how I disdain them.

[01:03:33] Right. You know I have kind of surrendered my point because I can't change human behavior.

[01:03:42] I have to learn how to adapt to the labels that are stuck to me but the most important thing and the reason why I really was moved to the point where I wanted to reach out to you was the focus on the humanity piece.

[01:04:00] I think when we do this kind of work whether it's in the nonprofit sector or in government or you know just straight up street activism right.

[01:04:12] You know we get caught up in the issue and we get caught up in whoever we view the opposition is and we forget the fact that all of us are human beings.

[01:04:28] And so to me I think the key is focusing on the humanity part and I think that that nut is tougher to crack with certain individuals than it is with you know the masses but it's still something that we have to probe into in order to get resolution.

[01:04:52] How does that sound far off to think like that?

[01:04:59] Not at all I mean it's interesting because I get concerned when people hear that call for humanity and then we get into the black lives matter who lives matter all lives matter conversation because the world should be one where all lives matter.

[01:05:15] However the reason why a movement like black lives matter exists because they have not been treated the black community has not been treated historically or currently as if their lives matter as well.

[01:05:25] And so I don't mean for the calls for humanity sound overly combion we're all just going to hold hands and everything will be fine and we will erase the very real differences and discrepancies and experience in marginalization and systems of oppression that people have to navigate in different ways because of the labels that are applied to them.

[01:05:44] Often through no fault or through no merit of their own.

[01:05:49] And at the same time I think the world of the EI and the world ideas generation wants to live in is where we can value and honor the aspects of who we are but that they not be the determining factor of outcomes or treatment or experience.

[01:06:03] And so to your point for me humanity is at the center of everything we do this work has to have sold that's why social justice is such an important part of our work because at the end of the day your organization can make a lot of money doing things that are really harmful to people in the planet.

[01:06:17] Policies can do the same and so for us humanity is everything because if we don't have each other than what are we doing exactly.

[01:06:26] As you see this conflict continue in my unique position podcasting I've had the privilege of talking to people who have opinions on both sides so far.

[01:06:41] What are your thoughts right now do you feel that we're we're fading away from that hope of seeing everybody as human or do you see some progress coming.

[01:07:02] I see both at both the individual and sort of a larger level and what I mean by that is in response to what I wrote on LinkedIn there were definitely a few outspoken individuals who were not happy about what I had written and expressed so pretty clearly.

[01:07:17] And what was sad to me about that was you know I wasn't anticipating that everyone's going to love what I wrote that would be completely naive but sad because their comments were made in the absence of any relationship with me they never reached out personally they never asked any clarifying questions they never did anything to say hey I'd like to understand more of what you've been.

[01:07:38] I was actually just more labels of why all these are all the reasons why what you wrote was wrong why you are by all why we probably gotten rid of all the bad ones.

[01:07:47] Already and so that was really disheartening because I would have loved to seen from those folks who are all members of the DEI field the opportunity to use inquiry to use compassion to generosity and maybe I didn't earn the trust or the opportunity to respect that of them and so I'm willing to own that as well but

[01:08:06] that that be the gut reaction was upsetting but at the same time I also received a lot of private messages from folks who are Palestinian who are Arab American or Arabs in the diaspora who expressed gratitude for what I wrote and so even though I understood why they didn't also share that gratitude publicly I was still encouraged and an appreciative of that outreach.

[01:08:29] And I see similar conversations happening in a national or international level that are both giving me hope and also putting me on my heels a little bit and what's putting me on my heels is that I don't actually think that we're having the right conversations about how to address what's going on.

[01:08:46] And part of the reason is that we're using labels as we talked about earlier but they're not necessarily the right ones and for me one of the things that's sort of being missed is the role of authoritarianism, authoritarianism, excuse me, and fascism that is also plaguing Israel and our own nation by the way.

[01:09:05] So the question is not just an issue of Judaism and Islam or religion or ethnic identity but also the way to be orient towards power and systems of power that has been a trend across the world whether it's in Latin America, Europe, Eastern Asia.

[01:09:22] It's not unique to this experience but I think until we're ready to have a conversation around why does the Israeli government have a policy the way it does?

[01:09:30] Why is it concentrating power and the way it has? Why is Hamas seen as a viable leadership structure for the people of Gaza were missing a huge opportunity, excuse me, opportunity to come up with solutions that can actually create lasting peace for everyone.

[01:09:46] And I don't believe that fascism or authoritarianism is the right way to go because it will squash all of the work that idea generation is doing which comes on the shoulders of countless social change leaders who are trying very hard to make sure that people have a voice that we have opportunities for discussion and doesn't we have to agree on everything.

[01:10:04] But to the degree that the end goal is just to maintain power, we're always be a step behind.

[01:10:10] Alright, so this is the part of the show where you make your plug. So how can people get in touch with you? How can people get in touch with ideas generation? Go ahead and make your pitch.

[01:10:21] Well, thank you for an opportunity Eric for me.

[01:10:25] Our team often jokes that even though we're an organization based on next generation leadership, I am the worst millennial when it comes to social media and the ability to sort of promote.

[01:10:34] So this definitely speaks to a growth edge for me, but folks are more than welcome to get in touch with us through www.ideasgeneration.org.

[01:10:44] We host a public black channel so it's a platform for folks to connect all over the world who are passionate about advancing ideas in their schools and their families and their workplaces.

[01:10:54] And so we'd love to have folks join us and not completely free. We're also always having programs both of which are in person and virtual hybrid.

[01:11:04] We're trying to make sure that the leadership development and community building programs that we offer are available to folks regardless of location and geography.

[01:11:12] And so we'll have more programs coming up later this year, which folks can learn about more on our website. We can also be followed on LinkedIn.

[01:11:21] You can look for us there. We're also at ideas generation on Instagram and would love to connect with folks who are interested curious want to learn more.

[01:11:28] And if anyone's willing to make a donation, we are 501 c3 taxable tax free nonprofit. So that would be great to support our efforts.

[01:11:37] Well, Dan, Ego, it's been an honor to talk with you, to connect with you and have you come on the podcast.

[01:11:45] The sincerity and the commitment that I saw in your writing. Now I've got to listen to it firsthand and I wish you much success.

[01:11:56] And in doing the heavy lifting that you've chosen to do. So thank you for coming on.

[01:12:04] Thank you for both the acknowledgement and the opportunity. It's been a pleasure and I'm grateful this is the opportunity to have them live.

[01:12:10] Alright guys, and we're going to catch up on the other side.

[01:12:26] Alright, and we are back. So now my final guest. And this is somebody from my old stomping grounds in Jackson, Mississippi, a friend of mine.

[01:12:50] And his name is Jerry Mitchell.

[01:12:56] Stories of investigative reporter Jerry Mitchell have helped put four clansmen and a serial killer behind bars.

[01:13:04] Histories have also helped free two people from Deferro, exposed injustices and corruption, prompting investigations and reforms as well as the firings of boards and officials.

[01:13:18] He is a Pulitzer Prize finalist, a long time member of the investigative reporters and editors, and a winner of more than 30 other national awards, including a $500,000 MacArthur Genius grant.

[01:13:32] His memoir for Simon and Schuster race against time details how some of the nation's most notorious murders came to be punished decades later.

[01:13:43] The New York Times made it an editor's pick and NPR selected it as a best book of the year.

[01:13:51] After working for three decades for the statewide clearing ledger, Mitchell left in 2019 and founded the Mississippi Center for Investigative Reporting, a nonprofit that exposes injustices and raises up the next generation of investigative reporters.

[01:14:09] The stories of MCIR have already led to two separate justice department investigations.

[01:14:16] Since summer of 2022, the nonprofit now a part of Mississippi today has been working with the New York Times on a series that has exposed allegations of how Mississippi shares and their deputies have carried out horrific crimes including torturing suspects and the beatings and sexual abuse of those behind bars.

[01:14:37] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Jerry Mitchell.

[01:15:01] All right, Jerry Mitchell, how you doing my friend? You doing good?

[01:15:07] Long time no see. You didn't got a little grayer and I didn't lost all mine so you know.

[01:15:17] Yeah, but it's really good to see you man.

[01:15:24] I know you've been still doing a lot even though you're not with the main newspaper anymore.

[01:15:31] I know.

[01:15:33] Yeah, and so I want to highlight some of the work that you're doing with that it's really kind of the way I want to do this interview if you is just to kind of let people know a little bit about who you are.

[01:15:46] Okay.

[01:15:47] I think you know, you have a pretty good social media profile but you know a lot of good things that come out of Mississippi kind of stay a secret for folks.

[01:16:03] And you're one of the you're one of the great things that have happened in Mississippi so I just wanted to give you this opportunity of my show to kind of kind of expand that and you know it's good.

[01:16:17] You're good to have somebody that kind of put me on the front page a couple of times with their reporter.

[01:16:22] There you go.

[01:16:24] Kind of kind of return to favor.

[01:16:28] But seriously though, normally what I try to do with these interviews is I start off with a quote and it's either something the person may have written something they may have said or relates to the work that they're doing.

[01:16:41] So your quote is nothing is quite so dangerous as a religious fanatic who thinks he's doing the Lord's will.

[01:16:52] How do you respond to that quote?

[01:16:56] Yeah, that's that was what I had a a Klansman tell me or former Klansman tell me what I was hanging out with him.

[01:17:07] Yeah, that was a Del Mar Dennis who was a Klansman turned at beyond format and yeah, that was wild.

[01:17:17] I was talking to him he lived he lived near Galenburg and so which should not terribly far from where Byron deal with Beck was living you know in near chat and again.

[01:17:34] And of course had already visited him and heard him spout his racism and everything.

[01:17:41] And then and to have basically Del Mar was saying you know Beck with my kill me you know, and that's what he was talking about and yeah, it's a line that's gotten quoted from my book now race against time and it's it's still very true.

[01:17:59] It's amazing how sometimes truth gets more things to be more true or over time.

[01:18:05] Yeah, it does. It does especially in this day and age.

[01:18:09] So what really got you interested in reporting?

[01:18:13] And what moment led you to do investigative due to do the investigative reporting that you become famous for?

[01:18:23] I mean pretty simple what got me an investigative reporting. I, I, hey, what got me into journalism was I like to write this really that simple and I, but for what reason I was gravitated to investigate reporting.

[01:18:43] And so I was working at this little small paper and East Texas.

[01:18:52] And, and this guy was an old state house reporter from Oklahoma burned out smoking you know several packs of barbers a day.

[01:19:02] Back when newsrooms work in the news such as non smoking newsrooms.

[01:19:06] And so he's puffing on his Mar burrows and has like asked me what I wanted to do.

[01:19:14] And I said well, I thought about you know investigative reporting and he was like the year red all the presidents man.

[01:19:21] I said no, I've seen the movie says read the book and study how they use attribution like okay.

[01:19:32] And I did exactly what he said and it was like it was like it opened my, and open my eyes to how investigative reporting could be done.

[01:19:42] And from that point forward, I really started doing it.

[01:19:45] You know, I just started you know use that book as a primer and just start doing it.

[01:19:50] Well, I mean, we'll wear an embarrassing and pretty, pretty good people to learn from.

[01:19:54] Yeah, good, good people to imitate.

[01:19:57] I learned from them and kind of went from there.

[01:20:00] I had no course in investigative reporting none zero.

[01:20:04] Just began doing it.

[01:20:06] You know trial and error for sure.

[01:20:09] And then I got to Mississippi.

[01:20:11] I started working at the clarion ledger.

[01:20:17] The set by newspaper in 86 is when I started working there.

[01:20:22] I worked there for over 30 years.

[01:20:25] But I was a young reporter there and in January of 1989, I was basically assigned to cover the press premiere of the movie Mississippi burning which you know I grew up in East Texas.

[01:20:45] I didn't grow in Mississippi.

[01:20:48] So I knew none of our very little up it that way.

[01:20:52] Oh, kind of the all the incredible violence.

[01:20:56] You know here Mississippi.

[01:20:59] Mississippi was ground zero for obviously the civil rights movement in this country.

[01:21:04] And so I just didn't know any of the background.

[01:21:08] So I was assigned to Curtis movie which is really a fictional take off.

[01:21:13] You know it's not really.

[01:21:15] It's not like a quote unquote true story.

[01:21:18] It's more like fictional and it's got pieces of fact in it.

[01:21:23] And so I went to the movie and happened to go there with two FBI agents who you know basically invested in that case.

[01:21:33] I have I want to know them and that began my journey.

[01:21:37] I knew nothing of it but I was shocked.

[01:21:41] It was first based on the real life clan killings of those three civil rights were James Cheney.

[01:21:47] African American from already in and then Mickey Schwerner and Andy Goodman were both in New York City.

[01:21:57] And had come to Mississippi be part of movement.

[01:22:00] And so the clan killed all three of them executed them and buried their bodies 15 feet down to earth and damn.

[01:22:08] Really miracle their bodies were ever found they weren't found till what 44 days later.

[01:22:13] And that's a whole long story of all that but anyway long story short there are more than 20 clansmen involved in that triple murder.

[01:22:26] And nobody ever prosecute for murder and that just kind of blew my mind because you know I covered courts.

[01:22:34] It's like I cover murder travel time has like what nobody ever prosecuted for murder you know.

[01:22:41] And so I.

[01:22:45] That was what shot me and you know I'm hearing from these FBI agent what really happened as opposed to maybe what the film had or made pieces of fact that were in the film and they're kind of tell me what was.

[01:22:55] And so then a month later.

[01:23:03] It's when I got my first leak of the sovereignty commission right in Mississippi sovereignty commission records and that began my journey down into that world which then led me to.

[01:23:16] You know, I don't know if you're like me but someone tells me I can't have something I want to like a million times worse.

[01:23:23] I began after the initial leak I began to develop sources who basically began to lead me files and what the show is the same time the state of Mississippi was prosecuting buyer deal with the murder of mega revers in Jackson.

[01:23:40] This other arm in the state the sovereign and commission was secretly succinct fence trying to get back with a quitted.

[01:23:45] And nobody knew that.

[01:23:47] So my story ran declaring ledger October 1st of 1989.

[01:23:52] And that kind of began that journey of looking into these civil rights poll cases.

[01:24:01] So one of my memories about you covering the eventual convictions of people that were involved in the Philadelphia killings was.

[01:24:17] It was on the front page of the claim ledger was a three picture panel and it was this guy who showed up and he showed up the court in a wheelchair in oxygen tent and all that.

[01:24:30] Take on them and all that was a burning damer case.

[01:24:35] Oh, that was burning damer OK.

[01:24:37] And yeah, I can tell you that story of the story.

[01:24:41] Yeah, yeah, yeah, tell me about the story about the guy with the oxygen tank. That was one the best one.

[01:24:46] The burning damer case is a burning damer case.

[01:24:50] So burning damer would basically died that you know, defending his family from a clan attack down in and Hayesburg.

[01:25:00] And so anyway, I began writing about that case after the after after after buying deal back with God and died in the mega revers case.

[01:25:14] And I've gone and interviewed him and he got and died it. Then I started to look into other cases and one of them is a burning damer case.

[01:25:21] And so I started writing about it and the eventually once I mean all these all these things were talking like years not a month, but years of years later.

[01:25:36] He's finally of sandbowers is finally charged in the case that sandbowers was ahead of the white nights of the KKK Mississippi.

[01:25:46] Responsible for at least 10 killings he ordered the killings of the three civil rights workers.

[01:25:52] He ordered the attack on burning damer and his family.

[01:25:57] And so he been trying to never be convicted in that case. And so fast forward now this is now 1998 May of 1998.

[01:26:08] He sandbowers is arrested along with his right hand guy, whose name is Debra's nicks.

[01:26:15] And when the family brought Debra's nicks in it was like most pitiful site you've ever seen.

[01:26:21] They like wheeled them up like your tongue out of the wheelchair in front of the judge and had the oxygen, the other green oxygen tank and everything.

[01:26:32] I mean like we all about in front of the judge and he's like, I can't take more no couple steps without needing oxygen judge and judge are like well, I normally don't do this but look out for that bond.

[01:26:44] So it doesn't days later, this is like a reporter's dream would catch him playing golf.

[01:26:55] That's exactly the pictures you're describing is exactly correct we had the pictures of him being brought in in the wheelchair and the very next brain was him playing golf.

[01:27:09] So he got arrested, you know, yeah, he loved me.

[01:27:14] Yeah, because I think it was the attorney general more he said anyway if he's well enough to play golf, y'all know I think he's well enough to sit and jail.

[01:27:22] Yeah, that was one of my board office was involved with that case.

[01:27:30] And everybody involved in case did a good job it was Bob Helfrick was the main prosecutor and then the attorney general's office something designated and an assistant lead Martin was the lawyer that is my mic was there for some.

[01:27:50] Yeah, yeah it was it was it was an interesting time which.

[01:27:57] Do you credit the timing your timing coming in and and doing those stories for the success that you were able to have or or if not the timing what do you credit your success in getting all these.

[01:28:17] Reporting about all these high high profile cases because all these cases like you said all this stuff happened in the 60s and yeah, yeah, yeah.

[01:28:27] I mean, I am a person of faith, you know, and I believe God's hand was involved in this.

[01:28:34] I mean, the thing you with almost every one of these cases we could talk about are the incredible odds against these cases ever being prosecuted.

[01:28:45] I mean, at the time for example, the mega rivers case will take that example at the time when I started looking at that case.

[01:28:55] I mean, there was nothing in the court files of any value. There was no court transfer nothing.

[01:29:02] There was no murder weapon. There was no evidence but merely hours you know the widow of mega rivers believed and she prayed and some amazing things happen a couple months later.

[01:29:17] Jackson police are cleaning out a closet to find the violence containing crime scene photographs of killing of mega rivers, including the fingerprint of fire and deal with liquid from the murder weapon.

[01:29:29] And a few months after that,

[01:29:33] you merely ever share with me her copy of court transcripts she'd say that safety deposit box.

[01:29:40] And a few months after that, the prosecutor found the murder weapon is falling along the walls.

[01:29:46] So which sounds like I'm making it up really, it really happened.

[01:29:52] And yeah, so all these impossible odds were ever come. So I as a person of faith, I just believe God's hands have been involved in that really good.

[01:30:03] But time was important. I would absolutely say that because obviously they try to prosecute some of these cases at the time like like my ordeal back with any walk to one.

[01:30:19] All while you're in a back then, you know, would not let any blackness and sympathy serve on your right. And the DA at the time Bill Waller he ended up being governor a few years later.

[01:30:34] Which I always thought was an amazing fee considering that he went after this guy.

[01:30:42] And then he got rewarded and got elected statewide. I thought that was that was interesting kind of interesting. It's like the contrast if you think about historically was the Emmett Till case, you know.

[01:31:00] So in the Emmett Till case, the killers were acquitted and walked away. Right.

[01:31:07] And so they couldn't be tried again ever for murder. Well, in this case the jury deadlock, you know, they did not that therefore back with to be tried again and you know if that jury had like a bill waller hadn't done a good job or revenge is to show kind of deal.

[01:31:28] Then the then then back with a walk and couldn't have ever been tried again for so I think I think waller and it was everybody from that time and saw the trial.

[01:31:39] So he did a good job. Yeah.

[01:31:42] So talk to me about what's the purpose for the Mississippi Center for investigative reporting? Why did you feel you needed to start that?

[01:31:54] The Mississippi needs more investigative reporting, not less. So I felt very strongly about that and feel even more strongly today about it.

[01:32:05] I just there's just such a need where these news deserts aren't getting smaller. They're sitting bigger and these small family newspapers and communities around the state.

[01:32:23] Even if they're still operating some of those damn.

[01:32:28] They didn't have the staff to go investigate.

[01:32:33] You know what their sheriff is really doing, you know that kind of thing plus they have such a relationship with the sheriff that might be problematic for them.

[01:32:43] You know what I mean? I mean, you know suddenly a start and investigating the sheriff. Well, he's not going to talk to him anymore or whatever.

[01:32:50] And so that I feel like that's where we come in and we're able to go in and do stories that they don't have the staff or the time or money to do.

[01:33:03] So that's like this past year we've been investigating sheriff's Mississippi.

[01:33:09] And actually at all arose. We started doing this in summer of 2022.

[01:33:16] We began investigating sheriff's not because we set out to investigate sheriff's but because we were investigating what appeared to be a wrongful conviction of this black woman, this black mother of four who's imprisoned for life.

[01:33:36] For what was pretty for basically a murder that didn't happen.

[01:33:41] And which sounds like what you know, but it's true.

[01:33:46] It was apparently a suicide from all indications in the original pathologist is now reversed himself so everything points to being a suicide including fact there was a suicide mode.

[01:34:01] So, but this woman is imprisoned for a lot.

[01:34:06] So we started looking into that case and that case is what led us to the sheriff.

[01:34:13] And the fact that he was allegedly taking women out of the jail and having sex with them.

[01:34:23] And that that then led us to another county.

[01:34:29] We heard other things about that other county. Oh wait, this is going on over there too. Oh okay.

[01:34:36] So now instead we're looking at multiple counties and then of course the latest reporting.

[01:34:43] You know, in terms of a list the story was the good spot and Brian Howie and Nate Rosenfield and Alyssa Daly did that reporting with me.

[01:34:59] And then the southern the good spot reporting was done by Brian Howie and Nate Rosenfield and they just did a terrific job.

[01:35:08] And they were in the last six months and the good spot for those maybe don't know what the good spot was.

[01:35:18] It was kind of this unit that the ranking kind of sheriff's department had it was a ship, late ship.

[01:35:25] And they called themselves the good spot.

[01:35:28] You know, they went out. They had these two black men.

[01:35:33] They they heard about literally rated the house did not have one to warrant. I mean none of that went in took out the cameras too.

[01:35:44] I mean just just everything they did it's just the situation illegal operation and they they're rated.

[01:35:51] They tortured these two young black men. They used a sex toy on them, put it gone in one of their mouths.

[01:36:02] It was kind of a Russian roulette thing you know what I mean? Like he emptied the chamber, put the gun in the mouth slick and then did it again and presumably didn't realize didn't empty the chamber, put the gun in the mouth.

[01:36:20] This time the gun fired and it's a miracle the guy survived.

[01:36:26] I mean if it blew off you know tore through his tongue and it was jaw and everything you know and could have easily killed him.

[01:36:39] And and these guys of course what what do these guys do? They plant drugs or you know plant drugs.

[01:36:47] They've got a gun they're going to drop but they said oh no we can use this gun they've gotten and set it up and make it look like they did this.

[01:36:56] And so these guys I'll plead guilty. I've already plead guilty to state federal charges but but it pretty much got written off you know the share kind of press conference that says oh I had no idea you know this happened and it got written off by a number of people as kind of a road thing you know one off.

[01:37:20] And what brought in they didn't they're reporting was show a pattern of this for at least 20 years.

[01:37:29] So this was not this is not just the one time deal.

[01:37:36] So these guys that got caught they were just the latest iteration of this gun squad.

[01:37:42] You got it. And one of the guys Brett McCowthin who's kind of the head of the gun squad he been a rent can't share office for over 20 years.

[01:37:55] So and we you know brought in eight found cases involving him way back you know 20 like said 20 years.

[01:38:06] So I that's one of the our work is is so valuable there was somebody we had a conference thing of Atlantic magazine sponsored with Mississippi today and we we were there and asked to speak.

[01:38:25] And we've been working directly with the New York Choms on this whole series by the way and Dean Bacchette has been great and Dean is originally from the Orals.

[01:38:34] And it long time he's a good better for New York times with now is shifted into this role of working with local journalism because he feels strongly about it.

[01:38:47] And so we we ended up working with him and it was great been a great experience. And so anyway, we were at this conference talking about these stories and woman from ranking county got it and said thank you.

[01:39:05] You know why woman from ranking county said thank you because you know it was for your reporting we would know this.

[01:39:14] And same thing with our reporting on this other sheriff's I mentioned there was a local paper that wrote an editorial and thanked us just said, you know, we don't have the time or money to do this.

[01:39:25] So I just think that's why what we're doing. I think it's so important because people need to know, people need to know they're you know they pay their taxpayers pay their money. They should know, you know what their sheriffs are doing and there's almost then this kind of interesting me where you live in this democracy right where we have these checks and balances.

[01:39:49] You've got the executive branch you got the legislative branch, you got the judicial branch. And so we created on purpose because we didn't want a king right right.

[01:39:59] We created these checks and balances so nobody would pass such incredible power will this sheriff doesn't come from democracy.

[01:40:11] He comes from medieval times. Right we can't restover the medieval times and bar the sheriff and go, okay, you're over law enforcement in this particular county but there are no checks and balances.

[01:40:26] I mean, there's nobody who has any power over the sheriff. They're in Mississippi. There's not we don't even inspect jails anymore. I mean that's the staggering thing.

[01:40:39] Well, Jerry in the in the constitution of the only person that could arrest the sheriff was the corner.

[01:40:47] That was definitely a throwback from the wild West days. I guess you know what I'm saying?

[01:40:58] Yeah, well, that's a Robin Hood everybody remembers Robin Hood in those days. That's what you're talking about. I mean, you're talking that far back.

[01:41:08] Yeah. Um, the sheriff of not again. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so in light of you talking about people coming up to thank you, what was the most satisfying story for you that you worked on?

[01:41:28] The most satisfying. That's fascinating. Um, I, I, this, this is one of the things that that happened that I don't know if satisfying the right word, but I, at least to me it's close to this.

[01:41:44] You know, because it's a better role at least for me. It gets I've won some awards, which is nice. But the biggest reward has been getting in those families because I think that's what it's about. It's not about me.

[01:41:59] It's about justice and you can't, you have to have truth before you can get justice right? Right. And that's the role that we play.

[01:42:10] And so when Bernadammer was killed by the clan, his oldest son, Rona's junior basically had to take charge.

[01:42:21] And you know, I had to find a place for the family live now their house had been, you know, basically they burned the house and you know, everything, you know, it was horrible.

[01:42:32] And so I had to find a place for them to live, you know, financial support. You know, all those things that he had to kind of plan the funeral.

[01:42:43] I mean, all that kind of stuff. He had to come in and he was an Air Force guy. So he's coming from the military. In fact, Bernadammer's six of Vernon, uh, Dammers seven sons served a total of 78 years.

[01:42:56] And our forces say, and so he came back and he told me there was no time to cry. Right. You know, yeah, I've done.

[01:43:08] And when the verdict came in and sandbowers with found guilty, here's this old Air Force guy just hand this face on his hands.

[01:43:25] Weeping. Yeah. And what can I say? I mean, that's, that's why I do what I do.

[01:43:39] Yeah. And you know, and those are powerful images I remember, you know, and the fact that you played a role in helping put that truth together and explaining it more for the people of Mississippi.

[01:43:56] Because, you know, people that lived during that time, a lot of them wanted to live in denial and all that. But for younger generations of people like me to really get those full stories, that was really, really helpful.

[01:44:09] And, uh, Joy Reed has this phrase she says, scaring is caring. And it's like, you know, when you think about those moments, it was terrifying.

[01:44:23] And it's a fact that you and others were able to articulate it so that we can understand and hopefully learn from that. I think was, was very, very valuable.

[01:44:34] So, um, yeah, satisfying was probably the best word I could get. You know, I know rewarding. I didn't know if that was a good word. But, um, but yeah, I definitely understand that one.

[01:44:47] So, I'm not doing it too. I'm just trying to get it right now and we're going to be able to talk about the, um, and then I know, you know, I'm going to do a little bit of that.

[01:44:57] Yeah. I'm just going to do something. I'm just not going to do it. Um, yeah.

[01:45:05] year. Well, I investigated, I've investigated Mississippi

[01:45:09] prisons twice, you know, like long investigations. I started

[01:45:14] looking at them in 2013 and we wrote this whole series for

[01:45:19] the Clarion ledger and literally 10 days after we got done with

[01:45:24] our serious priceps that had a, you know, Mississippi

[01:45:28] prisons was indicted right up for Crocs and went to prison

[01:45:34] obviously for that. And then kind of I went back to, you

[01:45:39] know, cover another stuff, criminal justice type stuff. And

[01:45:43] then a start getting calls again from people like me and

[01:45:46] this is the prisons good worse, you know, out from families

[01:45:50] and people in prison and stuff. So I decided to get another

[01:45:53] look at work of propl, okay, for a year. And we started

[01:45:57] reporting all the horrific things that were happening. And

[01:46:01] in some of the prisons and, and basically justice from

[01:46:07] starting investigating that after, you know, we completed our

[01:46:10] series and was January of 2020 and they started their

[01:46:13] investigation a month later. And but now they've been

[01:46:18] investigating for prisons of Mississippi. And so, Harchman

[01:46:23] and Central Mississippi, Congressional Facility, South

[01:46:31] Mississippi, Congressional Institution in Green County. And

[01:46:36] then was at Wilkinson, Wilkinson County, which is actually a

[01:46:40] private prison. So all those they investigate and basically

[01:46:45] found constitutional language like horrible constitution

[01:46:49] people have been killed. And, you know, people dying of

[01:46:53] medical needs and they're not counting, they're not

[01:46:57] checking on people. They're not, you know, it's just the

[01:47:01] regular stuff that used to, they don't even have people in

[01:47:04] towers anymore. I mean, that's how bad it's gotten like it

[01:47:07] turns a staffing. They don't even have people in towers. So

[01:47:12] it's just, it's a horrific situation. And I have, I have a

[01:47:19] feeling, unfortunately, that Mississippi is going to

[01:47:22] wipe in the same spot that Alabama is in terms of they're

[01:47:25] going to build a new prison. They're going to, I know the

[01:47:28] Senator Barnett's already talked about that possibility

[01:47:31] of having a new prison. Well, and he's probably

[01:47:34] correct in his assessment that we probably need to build

[01:47:38] it before the feds force system build it, you know, whatever

[01:47:41] the situation. I'm not saying you have to have a new

[01:47:43] prison, but I'm just saying that I have a feeling

[01:47:47] that's going to happen or whether Mississippi decides

[01:47:50] to do it or not because I think the feds are going

[01:47:53] to insist that there would be better facilities and

[01:47:57] and maybe need a new prison from a standpoint of you

[01:48:02] can run it with less staff, you know, in terms of design

[01:48:05] the way it's designed. And it's just not a good situation.

[01:48:11] In any of these prisons, the people that I've talked to

[01:48:14] that you have loved ones in these prisons. Right.

[01:48:20] So final question because you do a lot on social media

[01:48:25] highlighting people that were involved in the movement or your

[01:48:31] highlight particular incidents that happen. Name a

[01:48:34] historical figure in the civil rights area that you think

[01:48:38] doesn't get enough recognition.

[01:48:43] Um, that's a great question there a lot. But what are my

[01:48:47] favorites? And it's not like I'll mention two, uh, I'd be

[01:48:53] wells now people may know I'd be wells for her.

[01:48:59] She's a crusading essentially investigate a reporter

[01:49:04] who report on lynchings and and and did and you know basically got

[01:49:09] had to flee for a while. You know to Chicago they had friends that were

[01:49:14] lynched in Memphis and she's from Holly Springs originally.

[01:49:19] But there are a lot of things about her people don't know I mean the other

[01:49:22] details about her that I'm certainly know like she refused to go up her

[01:49:28] move uh leave her train seat because they wanted her to go sit

[01:49:34] you know in the in the place where they were sticking all

[01:49:39] all the black passengers you know she was like no.

[01:49:45] And she stood up and she won her case actually in court you know

[01:49:51] and or the fact that she marched for um women's voting rights

[01:50:01] women's voting rights and um with with the with the women who were marching

[01:50:06] in Washington and they wanted to stick her and uh and those who came

[01:50:12] with her kind of a black delegation from Illinois

[01:50:17] and wanted to stick them at the back of a line and she's like

[01:50:21] no. Not either we're going to march with you or we're not a part of you

[01:50:29] and so they did they gave in it's like that she's my kind of person I mean

[01:50:35] she stood up for what was right over and over again

[01:50:39] uh appreciate her her stating journalism and appreciate

[01:50:44] and she and then of course later helped found that in

[01:50:47] LACP so I mean I like I said I think we'll maybe know a little bit

[01:50:53] about item e-wails but I bet there's a lot about it I'd be like don't know

[01:50:57] and what an incredible you know hero I don't give another quick example

[01:51:05] we we typically remember like sig Rosa Parks right

[01:51:10] and that's another example on those lines like you need people know about

[01:51:13] Rosa Parks you know refusing to give them for

[01:51:16] see on the bus but what but she wasn't even the first black woman

[01:51:22] in Montgomery to refuse to give up her seat

[01:51:27] that year she was the

[01:51:33] uh and so there were four black women in front of her

[01:51:36] who refused to give up their their seats

[01:51:39] and but she kind of became the symbol for that so

[01:51:43] there's so many people like that fought it um

[01:51:48] uh forget I'm forgetting to last name anyway but she was a she was teen

[01:51:51] teenager and she refused to give up her seat and she was arrested

[01:51:56] she was the teenager at the time and so but but those women as well

[01:52:01] those women that's the case that went forward

[01:52:05] and prompted the desecrigation of those

[01:52:08] buses in Montgomery it was actually it wasn't Rosa Parks it was

[01:52:14] there's other women and that's not to take anything away from Rosa Parks

[01:52:18] in fact there's other stuff about they remember we remember Rosa Parks

[01:52:22] but the bus seat but they neglect to tell the rest of the story which is

[01:52:27] her involvement in um the Scottsboro Boys case she was involved with that

[01:52:35] she helped investigate all these cases where

[01:52:40] white men were raping black women and essentially getting away with it

[01:52:45] and so she was a part of the investigations and

[01:52:48] of those cases um

[01:52:51] recital or I believe is one of those cases anyway

[01:52:54] and so yeah it's um she deserves a lot of praise way beyond the bus seat

[01:53:02] and but we also know you'd elect the other women

[01:53:06] you know who were who were who are part of that and so I

[01:53:10] so I have a feature that's now running every day

[01:53:13] Mississippi today it's called on this day so every day

[01:53:17] and you can even subscribe to it every day you

[01:53:21] you can see kind of that day in history um like today was the day that had

[01:53:27] him at Daniel um became the first black american to win an Oscar

[01:53:33] and um and sometimes she got a little criticism at the time because of the

[01:53:39] the roles she played but those were the only roles available like we have to

[01:53:43] understand too Hollywood was pretty racist so it wasn't like they were handing

[01:53:48] out you know leading roles um you know and then uh

[01:53:54] Monique when she won her Oscar literally 70 years later

[01:54:00] and when she got up she wore the exact same type of outfit that um

[01:54:07] had him in Daniel war and thanked her you know

[01:54:13] because she took on those roles I made it take on the role I was at it

[01:54:19] yeah so Jerry how can people get in touch with you how can they

[01:54:23] subscribe to Mississippi today all that stuff

[01:54:26] well I'm going Mississippi today and subscribe uh

[01:54:31] in terms of getting touch with me there are people who are welcome to email me

[01:54:35] my email is Jerry J.E.R.R.Y. Dr. Mitchell in my tch eol

[01:54:41] at Mississippi all spelled out and then CIR that's center from

[01:54:47] that's gay reporting but that stands for dot or g and if people just email me

[01:54:51] I'll happy to talk to anybody well Jerry it's obvious that we could talk

[01:54:58] literally for hours about now we talk a while all this stuff that you

[01:55:03] bit of all with you know and I was just thinking about

[01:55:07] you and uh you know when I was in Mississippi and

[01:55:11] we were younger and there was this guy named Burkace you know and everybody was

[01:55:16] everybody wanted to be Burkace you know or at least be if you got

[01:55:21] interviewed by Burkace you were somebody you know I'm saying

[01:55:25] so you know you kind of got into that etch along now you're kind of that guy

[01:55:29] in Mississippi and so I'm really happy for you

[01:55:33] I'm happy to see that you're still doing the work and yeah I have you

[01:55:37] happy to keep doing the work if people want to read about the civil rights

[01:55:41] cases I do have a book it's called Race Against Time

[01:55:46] and it's on you know it's in a hardback paperback

[01:55:52] audio and I did get to do the audio myself so that was fun I get to do the

[01:55:58] audio for the book and and on candlelecourt so yeah

[01:56:02] cool and it's been quite the journey but thanks for having me on oh no problem

[01:56:07] man like I said it was a honor and it's really

[01:56:10] cool that whenever I can get somebody that I really really know

[01:56:14] to have that conversation man well Jerry thank you again for coming on

[01:56:22] all right guys and we'll catch you all on the other side

[01:56:41] all right and we are back and so I want to thank Grayson Foster

[01:56:52] Dan Eagall and Jerry Mitchell for agreeing to come on the podcast and be a

[01:56:58] guest again I hope that y'all were entertained

[01:57:01] and that y'all learned something from these folks

[01:57:05] and I greatly appreciate you all listening and supporting this podcast

[01:57:12] until next time

[01:57:35] you