[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of a Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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[00:01:18] Hello and welcome to another moment Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
[00:01:40] I am excited about this podcast today because this falls into one of my loves which is history.
[00:01:49] I love politics, I love sports but the beauty of both of those is the history that's attached to them and that's what makes politics great or what it should make it great.
[00:02:06] And what makes sports great is the history that leads up to now.
[00:02:11] And I am just a staunch believer in order to understand where you are, you have to know where you came from.
[00:02:20] So I'm really, really excited about this podcast and I hope that you will be excited about this podcast episode too.
[00:02:28] But before we get into all that excitement, it's time for a moment of news with Grace G.
[00:02:36] Thanks Erik.
[00:02:43] Donald Trump won the New Hampshire Republican primary with Nikki Haley vowing to continue her campaign despite her loss.
[00:02:50] Prior to the primary, Florida governor Ron DeSantis dropped out of the Republican presidential race and along with Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina endorsed Trump.
[00:02:59] Haley declared she would not accept a vice presidential position under Trump.
[00:03:04] The U.S. Justice Department criticized the police response to the 2022 U-Val Texas school shooting stating that law enforcement waited too long to confront the shooter, resulting in 21 deaths.
[00:03:15] Attorney Nathan Wade involved in the Georgia election interference case against Donald Trump paid for travel for district attorney Fanny Willis which raised questions about their relationship.
[00:03:26] President Biden announced the cancellation of nearly $5 billion in student loans for 74,000 borrowers, increasing the administration's total loan forgiveness to $136.6 billion.
[00:03:39] The U.S. Supreme Court declined to stop Alabama from proceeding with an execution using nitrogen gas on Kenneth Smith who previously survived a botched lethal injection.
[00:03:50] A Minnesota state trooper was charged with unintentional murder and manslaughter in the 2023 shooting death of black motorist Ricky Cobb II.
[00:03:59] A federal appeals court deemed Pennsylvania's laws that prevent 18 to 20 year olds from carrying firearms during state emergencies, unconstitutional.
[00:04:08] U.S. lawmakers advanced a bipartisan tax relief bill to enhance tax breaks for families and businesses.
[00:04:15] A federal judge has halted North Carolina's more stringent, same-day voter registration verification.
[00:04:21] The Ohio legislature overrode Governor DeWine's veto of a bill to ban gender affirming care for minors and prevent transgender athletes from competing in girls and women's sports.
[00:04:32] The U.S. Supreme Court allowed Border Patrol agents to remove razor wire fencing placed by Texas along the Mexican border.
[00:04:40] Dexter Scott King, son of Martin Luther King Jr. passed away at the age of 62 from prostate cancer.
[00:04:48] I am Grace G and this has been a moment of news.
[00:05:00] All right, thank you Grace for that moment of news.
[00:05:04] And now it is time for my first guest.
[00:05:09] My first guest is Satori Shakur. Satori Shakur is a storyteller and artist, social entrepreneur and a 2017 Cresky Literary Art Fellow.
[00:05:25] Satori received early recognition as a background singer slash recording artist when she toured with George Clinton Parliament Funkadelic as one of the brides of Funkinstein.
[00:05:37] She expanded her performance career to include actor, comedian and television comedy writer. Satori was the catalyst and a founding member of the award-winning Obsidian Theatre Company in Toronto.
[00:05:50] Founded in 1999 as a Obsidian Theatre has become Canada's leading cultural-leigh diverse theatre company.
[00:05:59] 2011, Satori began her professional career as a storyteller touring the country as a moth, main storyteller and host.
[00:06:09] She has told stories globally on many stages and storytelling platforms, PBS, NPR and podcasts.
[00:06:17] Satori hosts a twisted storyteller's podcast produced by WDET Radio. Detroit performs live at Merrick Grove, produced by Detroit Public Television on PBS.
[00:06:31] Satori is the executive producer for the award-winning The Secret Society of Twisted Storytellers, which he founded in July 2012 in Detroit.
[00:06:43] The Secret Society of Twisted Storytellers has a global mission to connect humanity, heal and transform community into providing a lifting, thought-provoking, soul-cleansing entertainment experience through the art and craft of storytelling.
[00:06:59] Satori is the executive director for the Society of the Reinstitutionalization of Storytelling, a Michigan 501C-3 nonprofit organization.
[00:07:08] The Secret Society of Twisted Storytellers partners with businesses, corporations, educational institutions and faith-based organizations to produce and program live events.
[00:07:20] Satori designs and facilitates storytelling workshops in art and craft of storytelling for arts organizations, small businesses, corporations and to individuals.
[00:07:31] Some clients include Inside Out Literary Project, Crane's Communication, Duke University, Bowling Green University, Detroit's Zoological Society, Edsel and Eleanor Ford House, Bing Euth Institute, Wayne State University, School of Social Work, New Detroit Racial Healing and Genealogy Project, MPHI, New Economy Initiative,
[00:07:55] Issue Media Group, Wayne State University Business School, Air of American National Museum, Hannah House, University of Michigan and a Detroit Historical Society.
[00:08:06] Satori was honored by I.D. Trey along with 100 other Detroiters who have moved the needle forward for the City of Detroit.
[00:08:16] In November 2018, upon invitation, Satori installed the Secret Society of Twisted Storyteller's Europe Edition in Utrecht, the Netherlands, to address issues of racism.
[00:08:28] In 2023, Satori was in Manchester, United Kingdom, to take part in a global initiative called In Place of War.
[00:08:36] Satori studied music performance at Michigan State University, dramatic arts at University of Hawaii, Manoa and earned a degree in interdisciplinary studies from Wayne State University in 2008.
[00:08:49] Satori was trained in art and improvisation by the groundlings in Los Angeles and second city Toronto in Canada.
[00:08:58] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Satori Shakur.
[00:09:07] Alright, Satori Shakur. How are you doing, Sissy? Are you doing good?
[00:09:23] Yeah, I just recently got died. I had a chest X-ray because I was having all this, you know, issues and things and found out it was pneumonia.
[00:09:35] So I'm taking some antibiotics. I feel better already but yeah.
[00:09:42] Well, I really appreciate one is an honor to have you on and two. I really appreciate you coming on in those circumstances.
[00:09:53] No problem walking around functioning but it got worse so I just happened. I just went to the doctor to find out because I'm going on vacation, going to Jamaica and I didn't want to be.
[00:10:05] I just, so I checked it out but I've been functioning. I hosted an event last night. I just, so it's not like I feel terrible terrible terrible terrible. I'm getting better.
[00:10:17] Yeah, well you got some incentive to get better. That's for sure.
[00:10:23] So normally like when I start an interview, I usually start off with a quote something that either that person may have said written in a book or applies to the conversation we're going to have.
[00:10:35] So your quote is when I move back to Detroit in 2011, I saw all these abandoned houses, drug dealers that were really the neighborhood watch only 11 people living on the block and graffiti.
[00:10:49] Being the most beautiful artwork you could find in a neighborhood. I felt gutted and wondered what if people could use their personal living experience to express and heal themselves and make a contribution to all who are listening.
[00:11:04] 10 years have proven that it's all working. What does that quote mean to you?
[00:11:12] Yes, well I moved back to Detroit in 2001 when my son was severely injured in a car accident. He and my mother subsequently subsequently passed away and I went into a deep period of grief.
[00:11:31] In 2011, which included Wall Street crashing. And I had to be sort of a nomad because I vowed to do what I love to do for the rest of my life no matter what.
[00:11:44] So I moved into a bedroom in my sister's house and I had an epiphany because six years later I noticed that Detroit was coming back to life like I was.
[00:11:56] And I had become a Moth star. Moth, the Moth is a storytelling organization based in New York that I won one of their contests and then from that point on they were flying me around the country telling my story of grief and loss.
[00:12:11] And I was getting a lot of emails from all over the world and I found storytelling was my purpose. I storytelling to me is like breathing.
[00:12:21] It's like something very natural. I grew up in a family old black women from the Jim Crow South. And so that was the language we spoke.
[00:12:31] I didn't know it was something in the world like a category that I could.
[00:12:36] I didn't know it was there so I found my purpose and I wondered as an artist if storytelling is bringing me back from the dead.
[00:12:48] I was like could it bring Detroit back and so I did an experiment still now by this time I'm living in a basement in a friend's house.
[00:12:58] And I started the secret society of twisted storytellers we started with 45 seats in 2011.
[00:13:06] We we've been we've grown since then we're going into our 12th year. We've had degree on our show. We've had George Clinton on our show.
[00:13:16] Dr. George phase on Michael Collier Naomi magic long and and also local Detroit people you've never heard of and you probably have heard of some you may have heard of but they all have a story to tell as you do.
[00:13:32] The story is a package of their lived experience a package of wisdom that I I present to a sold out audience of 300 or 2,000 people and the purposes to the mission is to connect humanity heal and transform community and to provide an uplifting thought provoking soul cleansing entertainment experience through the art and craft of storytelling.
[00:13:59] So that's where my experience in healing led me to want to extend it to the world. So we we do a show 10 months out of the year and we live stream it we have a YouTube channel.
[00:14:17] We we we we proliferate the stories and people watch them online, and and they can watch them anytime on demand and and they they find value not only in the listening to the stories but in the sharing of the stories.
[00:14:32] At the same time I'm committed to developing listeners, especially in the 21st information, dulling environment we live in.
[00:14:42] And our attention span has not, it has decreased.
[00:14:48] So I do believe that listening is a revolutionary act
[00:14:53] and at the highest level it's love.
[00:14:54] It's something we extend.
[00:14:55] We can't be forced to listen,
[00:14:58] but it does grant being to another human being.
[00:15:01] It helps us understand the human experience,
[00:15:04] it dissolves and breaks down intergenerational barriers,
[00:15:09] gender barriers, racial barriers
[00:15:12] because we get to the heart of what we all have in common
[00:15:15] which is that we are human and that we live,
[00:15:18] we die, we grieve, we mourn
[00:15:21] and we continue to do our best to survive.
[00:15:28] That's a beautiful concept.
[00:15:29] Listening is love.
[00:15:31] That's pretty cool.
[00:15:35] You describe yourself as a midwife of stories
[00:15:38] and storytellers.
[00:15:40] How hard is it in your opinion
[00:15:44] for African-Americans to tell their stories?
[00:15:49] I think that African, it's very easy,
[00:15:51] it's very easy when you have a midwife
[00:15:54] to birth that story,
[00:15:56] to help to assist in birthing that story
[00:15:58] because as a midwife I provide encouragement,
[00:16:02] I provide, I'm the first audience, the first ear.
[00:16:07] I think African-Americans come from a tradition of griots
[00:16:11] and African tradition,
[00:16:13] like a lot of indigenous people.
[00:16:14] That's how we pass down our legacy and our histories.
[00:16:19] So storytelling is part of the church.
[00:16:22] Well, it used to be part of the church experience.
[00:16:24] It was called a testimony,
[00:16:27] but now we have online churches
[00:16:32] and we have in-person churches
[00:16:34] but the environments have changed a bit
[00:16:38] and the messaging has changed a bit
[00:16:41] and the focus has changed a bit.
[00:16:42] So I want just to have regular people share their regular,
[00:16:48] their experiences that and showcase their extraordinary
[00:16:54] achievements.
[00:16:55] So I think it's easy because it's something I love to do.
[00:16:59] So and I have an ear for storytelling.
[00:17:02] I have the skill and I teach storytelling
[00:17:07] as part of my profession
[00:17:09] and I work with the state of Michigan,
[00:17:10] I work with universities, Duke University,
[00:17:13] all kind of universities in different capacities
[00:17:17] to facilitate storytelling
[00:17:19] to help people bring out their stories
[00:17:21] because storytelling is not only an art and a craft,
[00:17:24] it's also a science.
[00:17:26] It's the most powerful and effective delivery system
[00:17:30] of information and ideas.
[00:17:31] It's a form of communication.
[00:17:34] So if you do want to express yourself,
[00:17:38] you wanna get across your campaign ideas
[00:17:41] or like that, you would use storytelling
[00:17:43] because storytelling lights up the entire brain.
[00:17:47] Court of Saul, Dopamine,
[00:17:50] from Ossetocin,
[00:17:52] all they all encourage.
[00:17:58] It floods the human being
[00:18:01] and Court of Saul makes you wanna pay attention
[00:18:03] and wants to know what's gonna happen next.
[00:18:05] Ossetocin, Dopamine, they all work together
[00:18:09] to encourage feelings of empathy.
[00:18:13] And so you associate and identify with the storyteller
[00:18:18] and so therefore you have the whole brain lit up
[00:18:22] as opposed to maybe PowerPoints
[00:18:24] and information is statistics.
[00:18:26] So it's a very high form of communication,
[00:18:31] it's effective because I know I can ask you now,
[00:18:33] do you remember any stories you were told as a child
[00:18:36] and you probably can tell me yes
[00:18:38] and you can probably tell me exactly how that story went
[00:18:42] and so it lives with you.
[00:18:44] Not only does it live with you,
[00:18:46] it's your story now
[00:18:47] and you probably interpret it in different ways.
[00:18:50] You might use it when somebody's,
[00:18:53] you wanna encourage somebody
[00:18:54] or you wanna entertain somebody
[00:18:56] or you wanna get across a point.
[00:19:00] You may extract a story someone told me long time ago that.
[00:19:06] So it's human.
[00:19:09] Yeah.
[00:19:10] And I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off
[00:19:13] but the reason why I asked that question
[00:19:17] is because when I used to talk to younger people
[00:19:22] on a regular basis, it seemed to me,
[00:19:25] especially our children,
[00:19:26] it seemed to me that they had more trouble verbally
[00:19:31] expressing themselves.
[00:19:32] Now they've got all these tools on social media
[00:19:38] whether it's Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, whatever.
[00:19:43] It's a way to express themselves
[00:19:45] in a way that they can use
[00:19:47] to express themselves freely
[00:19:50] but face to face
[00:19:51] it seemed like that was a challenge.
[00:19:53] Your experience, I guess, is different
[00:19:56] because you know how to extract stuff out of people.
[00:20:00] Well, it's because young people,
[00:20:06] and most people I would venture to say
[00:20:11] do not have the gift of an experience of being heard.
[00:20:19] So when young people listening,
[00:20:23] I listening is not just hearing words
[00:20:25] and it's an action.
[00:20:32] It's something that you know
[00:20:36] when you're not being listened to.
[00:20:39] Everyone knows, oh, they're not listening.
[00:20:42] So to be able to really listen
[00:20:45] is to give up your need to agree or disagree,
[00:20:50] give up your, well that's not how
[00:20:52] to just completely surrender
[00:20:55] to what the other person is saying without judgment,
[00:20:58] without evaluations or assessments
[00:21:01] and when you listen to another person's communication
[00:21:06] you're gonna always have questions
[00:21:08] if you're truly interested
[00:21:10] because they're not gonna say everything
[00:21:12] but there'll be something that they say
[00:21:14] that will make you curious,
[00:21:16] will make you want to get more clarification
[00:21:20] and or there's something that they say
[00:21:22] that you know they may not have said that
[00:21:25] they kind of brushed by it
[00:21:27] and when you go in and you say,
[00:21:30] well, you know you said such a such a such a such
[00:21:32] most people are surprised that you even heard that.
[00:21:35] So they trust you, an environment of trust
[00:21:38] happens when someone is truly listening
[00:21:41] to another speaking.
[00:21:42] When someone is truly listening
[00:21:44] that other person feels heard
[00:21:46] they open up and they volunteer their stories,
[00:21:50] their experiences because they want to share
[00:21:53] they desire to let it out.
[00:21:56] It's like breathe in, I breathe in, I breathe out.
[00:21:58] So people breathe in their experience,
[00:22:00] they want to share, they want to be encouraged.
[00:22:03] So I have a TV show, I am a host of Detroit performs live
[00:22:07] for Mary Grove and I host and I interview
[00:22:10] and a lot of the people that I interview are young people.
[00:22:16] Some of them are like in elementary school
[00:22:19] and they are very shy to start out with
[00:22:23] and so there's an empathy, there's, oh, there's shy.
[00:22:28] Let me be even before the interview starts
[00:22:30] let me comfort them, let me get related
[00:22:33] to them so that the on-camera part
[00:22:35] and the microphones and all that don't intimidate them.
[00:22:39] And once they feel heard, there's, there it is.
[00:22:46] You're in a community with someone,
[00:22:49] a loving experience.
[00:22:52] Yeah, yeah, I feel that.
[00:22:55] I feel what you're saying on that
[00:22:58] because I think a lot of times our people,
[00:23:00] especially our young people don't feel like they're being heard.
[00:23:04] I think they're learning more to express themselves now
[00:23:09] as this political climate is evolving
[00:23:13] but overall, I think that's been a general concern.
[00:23:19] You stated that you learned the art of storytelling
[00:23:22] from your Southern family members
[00:23:24] you mentioned that in your opening answer.
[00:23:28] What is the importance?
[00:23:30] And you partially answered the question
[00:23:31] but what is the importance of storytelling
[00:23:35] and preserving the legacy of our culture?
[00:23:40] Well, like I like watching a lot of YouTube.
[00:23:46] I like watching the YouTube of people
[00:23:50] that are like from 20 something to 40 something
[00:23:53] because they're struggling with male-female relationships.
[00:23:57] They're trying to figure out who they are.
[00:24:00] They have, it's almost like they were born 20, 40 years ago
[00:24:06] and there was nothing that happened before that.
[00:24:09] They romanticize certain parts of history.
[00:24:12] So right now the current thing is for young men
[00:24:15] to talk about their leaders
[00:24:17] and they want women to submit to them
[00:24:20] like they did in the 60s and the 50s
[00:24:23] and but they failed to look at the history
[00:24:25] which is if they go to other YouTube channels
[00:24:28] they can see documentaries of women and men
[00:24:33] speaking at that time in history.
[00:24:36] They so they take certain parts of what they heard
[00:24:40] and use them to empower their arguments
[00:24:44] but they neglect to know their history,
[00:24:46] to know what happened before
[00:24:50] is to have knowledge, is to have facts
[00:24:55] to have power in navigating your world.
[00:24:59] So I think that storytelling
[00:25:03] because we can see how powerful storytelling is
[00:25:07] because there are certain states
[00:25:10] that want to erase history.
[00:25:14] Trevor Noah had his new standup comedy special
[00:25:18] which he did in Detroit.
[00:25:19] He says why do people want to erase their history?
[00:25:24] What?
[00:25:25] And he told a story of Christopher Columbus
[00:25:27] who never stepped foot on this soil
[00:25:30] but he celebrated as someone who discovered America
[00:25:36] but he never went beyond the Caribbean
[00:25:38] so it's all mixed up.
[00:25:40] So that story has been passed down
[00:25:42] and it's only been a few years ago
[00:25:45] that we started getting awareness
[00:25:47] that we can shift that narrative
[00:25:50] and call it something else.
[00:25:52] Indigenous people day
[00:25:53] or a lot of black folks don't even celebrate it
[00:25:58] or there are holidays
[00:25:59] that don't even get celebrated anymore for July.
[00:26:04] Who's independence, where are they talking about?
[00:26:06] So it's the more you know,
[00:26:09] the more history,
[00:26:10] the more knowledge and facts you have
[00:26:12] because our histories have been buried,
[00:26:16] they've been stolen,
[00:26:19] they've been co-opted,
[00:26:21] they've been like I'm watching Bazzaries.
[00:26:23] I did not know that the lone ranger
[00:26:26] who was based on Bazzaries
[00:26:28] but Bazzaries was African American man
[00:26:31] and although his story's a little problematic, you know?
[00:26:35] He still was an African American man
[00:26:39] so we take some of our accomplishments,
[00:26:43] some of our history,
[00:26:44] some of our stories bury them
[00:26:46] or slap another face on them.
[00:26:50] And so if we knew the things that we knew,
[00:26:53] then we could have,
[00:26:56] I don't wanna say ammunition
[00:26:57] because I'm not a person of violence
[00:27:00] or wants to fight
[00:27:01] but we could actually stand in the face of narratives
[00:27:06] and put our side by side.
[00:27:10] Yeah.
[00:27:11] I watched that Trevor Noah.
[00:27:13] I've yet to watch the Bazzaries
[00:27:14] but I've watched that Trevor Noah special
[00:27:16] and I just love him in the way they heat-tail stories, right?
[00:27:21] And how he incorporates that in the comedy.
[00:27:25] And it's very relatable.
[00:27:28] But to your point about
[00:27:31] the whitewashing of history,
[00:27:34] I just think it's really, really important.
[00:27:37] You know, I've always respected people
[00:27:40] who could tell stories
[00:27:42] and I took great pride
[00:27:45] being in a position where I can meet people
[00:27:49] who made historical achievements or whatever.
[00:27:54] And just to hear them tell their story,
[00:27:57] that was more important than a picture with them
[00:28:00] or an autograph or something like that
[00:28:05] just to be in a room
[00:28:07] and listen to them talk about
[00:28:09] what they were feeling at that time.
[00:28:12] Like you said, you remember that more so than,
[00:28:16] oh yeah, well I took a picture with Rosa Parks.
[00:28:18] But to sit there and talk to Rosa Parks
[00:28:20] that's a whole different ballgame.
[00:28:22] So I appreciate what you're saying about the power in that.
[00:28:28] So I used to listen to this radio show
[00:28:30] growing up in Chicago
[00:28:33] that started with the line
[00:28:35] just like the talking drums of Africa
[00:28:37] once brought vital information to their community, right?
[00:28:41] What is or could be our quote unquote talking drum
[00:28:46] in today's black community?
[00:28:51] Well, I think that in our community
[00:28:55] it's sharing, it's storytelling.
[00:28:58] It's connecting ourselves like one of the things
[00:29:02] that I'm noticing from doing the secret society
[00:29:05] towards the storytellers
[00:29:06] there's always your intention
[00:29:08] and then all of these unexpected benefits of it.
[00:29:11] One of the things I wanted to do was connect
[00:29:15] the people of Detroit, we talk about a black community,
[00:29:18] we talk about community
[00:29:20] but what is that?
[00:29:21] Like where do you point to that?
[00:29:24] And I think it's in our relationships.
[00:29:26] It's in the way we know each other
[00:29:28] and care for each other
[00:29:30] and the trust that we have.
[00:29:32] So I wanted and people tell me
[00:29:34] yeah, I was in whole foods
[00:29:36] and some people walked up to me
[00:29:38] and said, I heard your story
[00:29:40] at the secret society towards storytellers.
[00:29:42] How's your mother?
[00:29:45] Yeah.
[00:29:46] Or I, you know, or mentorship's happening
[00:29:50] or one storyteller who speaks
[00:29:54] Dr. Portia Lockett
[00:29:55] who speaks around the country on grief and loss
[00:29:58] my assistant who works with me
[00:30:00] she has a nonprofit called Remembering Cherubs
[00:30:03] where she supports women who have had miscarriages.
[00:30:08] I produce them and now my assistant Monica
[00:30:13] through Dr. Lockett
[00:30:15] now has a, it's connected to Henry Ford hospitals
[00:30:19] and has an outreach.
[00:30:21] So it's not only,
[00:30:23] people used to call it networking
[00:30:26] but it's more powerful than networking
[00:30:28] because you've just shared who you are.
[00:30:31] You think you know that person
[00:30:33] because that person has shared their struggle,
[00:30:36] their intimacy.
[00:30:37] So there's always fodder.
[00:30:39] If you've heard somebody's story
[00:30:40] there's always a place to start that conversation
[00:30:43] and it's always with something they heard
[00:30:46] of your story that they can relate to
[00:30:49] they can admire, they can congratulate you on
[00:30:52] or feel sympathy for you.
[00:30:55] So there is just a human connection.
[00:30:58] It's very powerful.
[00:31:00] It can be instant.
[00:31:03] And so I think that the talking drum is like
[00:31:08] I guess information sharing.
[00:31:11] Right.
[00:31:12] Yeah, so like I said storytelling
[00:31:15] is the most powerful delivery system
[00:31:18] and effective delivery system of information and ideas.
[00:31:23] And then you know there's all kind of storytelling.
[00:31:27] I read during slavery they would braid the hair.
[00:31:35] The designs in the hair would be the pathway
[00:31:38] to the underground railroad.
[00:31:41] So that's a story too.
[00:31:43] Right, I just found that out myself
[00:31:45] about how they would put certain things
[00:31:49] in the braids to kind of help people along their way.
[00:31:54] Yeah.
[00:31:56] Yeah, like rice and all that kind of stuff.
[00:31:59] Yeah, I think that's pretty cool.
[00:32:01] I'm sorry, go ahead.
[00:32:03] No, it's a very, the creative ways in which we have survived
[00:32:09] which we have drawn courage from
[00:32:12] has been in our own presence, our hair,
[00:32:17] our skin, our pain, our stories.
[00:32:20] So we have survived because of each other
[00:32:26] and we will continue to move forward.
[00:32:28] Like with Kamala Harris,
[00:32:29] I saw her on the Kiki Palmer show on Kiki Palmer show
[00:32:33] and one of the things I wanted to do so bad
[00:32:37] was to teach Kamala Harris how to tell stories
[00:32:40] when she's in these spaces
[00:32:43] because she's giving out information
[00:32:45] but you can't really carry it.
[00:32:50] It's not in a container.
[00:32:52] You need that story to carry that information
[00:32:54] to inspire and to, you know.
[00:32:57] So I was like, ooh, maybe one of the things
[00:33:00] I'd love to do in the future is maybe, you know,
[00:33:04] target some of these representatives of the people
[00:33:10] and show them how to get their messages out more powerful.
[00:33:16] Yeah, because I work with lawyers
[00:33:17] and their opening arguments, their closing arguments,
[00:33:20] work with people who are going to present their,
[00:33:25] whatever they want to present to Congress,
[00:33:29] kids or mothers who are black mothers
[00:33:34] who are effective negatively.
[00:33:37] There's a big maternal mortality issue here in Detroit
[00:33:44] due to implicit bias which Kamala Harris is talking about.
[00:33:48] Excuse me.
[00:33:48] I mean, breastfeeding, all of these things
[00:33:51] black women want to breastfeed now
[00:33:54] but breastfeeding will completely shut down formula
[00:33:58] which is a capital, with capitalistic.
[00:34:01] I mean, you know, by this for your baby
[00:34:05] which won't immunize your baby around all these disease
[00:34:09] and then I heard a commercial just like mommy's milk.
[00:34:13] This formula is just,
[00:34:15] the money's got to always be in the mix
[00:34:18] and so it's like, no, let's tell these stories.
[00:34:22] So yeah, or I'm working with the young fathers
[00:34:26] who are, who want their stories extracted
[00:34:30] to do a documentary
[00:34:32] to change the narrative of black fathers
[00:34:35] don't care about their kids.
[00:34:37] You know, so people are finding,
[00:34:41] especially now in this digital age,
[00:34:43] storytelling is built for now.
[00:34:46] It's always been relevant but it's really built for now.
[00:34:54] Every little TikTok thing you see,
[00:34:56] little skit, all these things are storytelling.
[00:35:00] Yeah.
[00:35:02] So you've had the privilege of being an actress
[00:35:04] portraying different characters throughout your career.
[00:35:08] With this endeavor in the storytelling
[00:35:09] which one is harder?
[00:35:11] Being a movie character or being yourself?
[00:35:16] Being a movie character.
[00:35:18] Okay.
[00:35:22] Why is that harder?
[00:35:26] Because being a movie character,
[00:35:29] you are required to be part of a story
[00:35:36] that someone else is directing and telling.
[00:35:40] And so therefore you have to become another part of yourself
[00:35:45] or you have to become this particular character
[00:35:48] who may be older than you or younger than you
[00:35:50] or completely different than you
[00:35:52] and you have to create something
[00:35:56] and then create a whole backstory for you to live out of.
[00:36:01] Being myself, I know what things smelled like
[00:36:04] when I walked into a room
[00:36:07] or I don't have to do anything except share and be.
[00:36:13] Yeah.
[00:36:14] Yeah.
[00:36:15] You were once asked what makes a good story
[00:36:19] and you said high stakes,
[00:36:21] define what you mean by high stakes
[00:36:23] and how does that make a good story.
[00:36:26] The higher the stakes, the more compelling the story.
[00:36:29] So stakes are life and death
[00:36:32] like there was a TV series I like to use
[00:36:34] an example called 24.
[00:36:36] And in 24 hours he had to save the world.
[00:36:39] Can you do it?
[00:36:40] You know, he's gonna do it because at the end
[00:36:43] we're gonna get it so seven.
[00:36:45] Right.
[00:36:46] How does he do it?
[00:36:48] Or I, or every all stories have stakes
[00:36:54] but people don't know where to identify
[00:36:56] where the stakes are.
[00:36:57] The stakes are in, you really want this.
[00:37:02] You're really going for it and you have a disappointment.
[00:37:06] How do I get back up there?
[00:37:07] You know, if nothing happens in your story
[00:37:10] or nothing significant happens, it's an essay.
[00:37:15] So we have to have that challenge
[00:37:18] to our thinking challenge
[00:37:20] to our physicality challenge to our lives
[00:37:25] and so that we can rise to the occasion of overcoming.
[00:37:30] So though that's the stakes,
[00:37:32] will we make it in time?
[00:37:34] Life or death?
[00:37:37] I really wanted to be that star football player
[00:37:41] and then I got injured in the game.
[00:37:44] What do I do now?
[00:37:46] Who do I become out of this?
[00:37:49] So those are some examples
[00:37:54] of having high stakes.
[00:37:57] And if you notice, if you watch movies or TV shows
[00:38:01] as soon as you put a baby or a child in the story,
[00:38:05] the stakes automatically raise high.
[00:38:09] How is she going to get out of this situation
[00:38:12] with that baby?
[00:38:13] That baby's going to cry and give her away.
[00:38:15] So all these elements of high stakes
[00:38:19] where we're all on edge to see how it's going to turn out.
[00:38:22] So yes, you got to find stakes in your story.
[00:38:27] All right, so final question.
[00:38:30] We're going to travel forward in time.
[00:38:33] In December of 2024,
[00:38:36] what is going to be the story that is told?
[00:38:40] And since it's a political show,
[00:38:43] this has been probably the most political question
[00:38:46] you're gonna get.
[00:38:47] What's gonna be the story at the end of 2024?
[00:38:52] Of the world?
[00:38:54] Of the world, the United States,
[00:38:56] what do you think the story is going to be?
[00:39:00] Well, that's where the stakes are
[00:39:02] because December 2024,
[00:39:06] we're either going to be in my view.
[00:39:11] We're either going to be on the brink
[00:39:14] of a whole new world of disaster
[00:39:19] or we will be at stasis,
[00:39:24] we'll be in a holding pattern.
[00:39:26] But I think that until we are able to dismantle
[00:39:31] the system of white supremacy patriarchy,
[00:39:36] which is an artificial environment
[00:39:39] that we've all been socialized and politicized
[00:39:44] to adapt to making ourselves unnatural,
[00:39:48] making ourselves not free,
[00:39:52] then we're not going to be able to really know
[00:39:56] how the world would look.
[00:39:57] So we have to dismantle this system
[00:40:00] which oppresses our natural self-expression.
[00:40:04] We, it's artificial and it does not work
[00:40:09] and all of us perpetuated
[00:40:12] in what we don't know about ourselves,
[00:40:16] which I call it the chip.
[00:40:17] All of us have a chip and we're chipmattized
[00:40:21] and when we're not thinking, we then adapt.
[00:40:25] I'm gonna lose my job if I say that.
[00:40:27] If I actually tell the truth,
[00:40:31] someone's gonna shoot me.
[00:40:33] There's the chip comes with policing,
[00:40:37] thinking that manages your behavior.
[00:40:40] But what I'm doing is I'm practicing freedom,
[00:40:43] which is to say I'm noticing my chip
[00:40:46] when my chip wants to manage me
[00:40:48] and when I want to test reality.
[00:40:50] I'm gonna say the thing and see what happens.
[00:40:54] I say the thing and sometimes I get partners.
[00:40:58] I agree with you.
[00:41:00] Or oh yes, we can pay you that amount of money.
[00:41:06] So it's like my, I think for December 2024
[00:41:11] we need to start practicing freedom now.
[00:41:16] Practicing freedom,
[00:41:20] which is how would we behave outside of this system
[00:41:25] which is managing our thinking and behavior?
[00:41:29] How, you know, we're in a system
[00:41:31] that has us think that our vote
[00:41:34] is gonna make a difference
[00:41:35] and we know one vote is not gonna make a difference.
[00:41:37] We know that a whole lot of votes
[00:41:40] will make a difference
[00:41:40] because it'll buy some electoral,
[00:41:42] another set of votes call electoral votes,
[00:41:46] and we're gonna have a lot of votes
[00:41:48] that will make a difference.
[00:41:50] So it's kind of, it's all very skewed
[00:41:53] but we need folks that are going to tell the truth
[00:41:59] about everything.
[00:42:00] You know what, I just was watching Nikki Haley
[00:42:03] try to avoid talking about slavery.
[00:42:06] I mean, we already know you're avoiding that.
[00:42:09] It drives you crazy not to hear a truthful answer.
[00:42:13] It's refreshing to hear honesty
[00:42:15] because it just, it infuses yourselves
[00:42:22] with light.
[00:42:26] So I think we gotta do all of us have to be in action
[00:42:32] about December 2024
[00:42:35] because it's up for grabs right now.
[00:42:37] Yeah.
[00:42:38] All right, so how can people get in touch with you?
[00:42:43] How can they plug in to your shows, all that kind of stuff?
[00:42:48] This is the time to plug what you do.
[00:42:53] You can visit twistedtellers.org
[00:42:58] twistedtellers.org to find all about the secret
[00:43:02] society twists and storytellers.
[00:43:04] You can visit my website which is satoreyshakur.com
[00:43:10] and between those two websites
[00:43:13] you should be able to find me everywhere.
[00:43:16] All right, well, satoreyshakur.
[00:43:19] I appreciate you coming on again
[00:43:24] overcoming some challenges physically.
[00:43:27] I hope that you recover well enough
[00:43:30] to get to Jamaica and enjoy it
[00:43:32] and again, I appreciate you coming on
[00:43:37] and talking about the work that you're doing
[00:43:39] and why it's important.
[00:43:42] Well, I appreciate your invitation.
[00:43:44] It was lovely meeting you.
[00:43:46] I'm glad that you're doing this podcast
[00:43:49] and that you're getting these voices
[00:43:51] and these points of views out for people
[00:43:53] to be able to access.
[00:43:55] So thank you.
[00:43:56] I appreciate that. Thank you.
[00:43:58] All right, guys. Happy New Year to you too.
[00:44:01] And we're gonna catch up on the other side.
[00:44:07] Happy New Year!
[00:44:10] Happy New Year to you too.
[00:44:13] Happy New Year to you too.
[00:44:16] Happy New Year to you too.
[00:44:20] Happy New Year to you too.
[00:44:24] All right, and we are back.
[00:44:27] And so now
[00:44:29] it is time for our next guest,
[00:44:32] which is Suzanne Harmon,
[00:44:35] Suzanne Harmon Munson has written books, three published and formed way in a variety of genres,
[00:44:42] fiction, nonfiction, and poetry. She has an unusual distinction of being an author of
[00:44:47] quote unquote traditional history as well as a pioneer in a new genre, met a physical
[00:44:54] history. She has written a well-regarded book of traditional history, Jefferson's Godfather,
[00:45:01] the man behind a man, a biography of Thomas Jefferson's influential mentor George Wach.
[00:45:08] George Wich, I'm sorry, sign over the Declaration of Independence. America's
[00:45:12] preferred professor of law, senior statesman, and a motto for the ethical servant leader.
[00:45:19] Soon to be published as a related book, first in law, first in leadership to college
[00:45:23] William Mary. More recently she boldly explored what Jefferson might have to say to us from
[00:45:29] his current place in the spirit. In the book, The Metaphysical Thomas Jefferson,
[00:45:34] dispermeared on Amazon as the number one new release in political commentary. Her next
[00:45:39] book is in this genre, The Metaphysical Leonard Cohen, the last interview and the Metaphysical
[00:45:46] Van Gogh. Her latest book of loss and love, A Journey of the Heart, takes an entirely new
[00:45:53] turn. This is a series of reflections that she began after the loss of her husband several
[00:45:58] years ago. The book's beautiful passages offer insight on dealing with grief, living,
[00:46:05] learning to love mindfully, and searching for the love of a new partner later in life.
[00:46:11] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as the guest on this
[00:46:15] podcast, Suzanne Harmon-Munson.
[00:46:28] Alright, Suzanne Munson. How you doing, ma'am? You doing good? I am doing great. I hope
[00:46:38] you are too. I am, especially now that I have you on because I want to talk to you about
[00:46:47] a couple of historical figures that you have written books about. George with and Thomas Jefferson,
[00:46:58] but before we get into that, what I like to do with guests is to give them a quote. And
[00:47:07] that quote could be something that they have said, something they have written or something
[00:47:12] that relates to the topics we are going to discuss. So your quote is this, democracy is
[00:47:20] not simply a license to indulge individual whims and proclivities. It is also holding
[00:47:27] oneself accountable to some reasonable degree for the conditions of peace and chaos that
[00:47:32] impact the lives of those who inhabit one's beloved extended community. What does that
[00:47:40] quote mean to you? Well, that is what my books are all about. The two people that I wrote
[00:47:47] about, Thomas Jefferson and George with, Jefferson was George with student. And so they, Jefferson
[00:47:55] was studying law under with but with had a captive audience with him and he required him
[00:48:01] to read all kinds of history and learn languages. And so on. So they studied the ancient Greek
[00:48:10] philosophers Plato and Aristotle and those people who wrote and some of the Romans who wrote
[00:48:16] about the characteristics of good government and the whole object of a good government that's
[00:48:23] well run for the people, of the people for the people and by the people is for basic happiness
[00:48:30] among the people. You're not going to be happy under an evil dictator for sure, maybe
[00:48:36] a few people who get rich that way won't be. A handful of people who are totied up to
[00:48:42] the dictator but the common person will not do well under a bad ruler. And so that's
[00:48:49] why we came up with the democratic republic so that we could get rid of a bad ruler without
[00:48:56] bloodshed. In the history of mankind, you had to kill somebody or send them off to some island.
[00:49:02] That was a little more humane than killing but usually you kill somebody had to kill somebody
[00:49:08] and then the people who came into power usually weren't that much better. So at least we got
[00:49:13] away from that and we got away from hereditary titles, you know, keeping the kingship in the
[00:49:22] same family even though the son was an idiot. So we had a very noble experiment with this government
[00:49:35] that the founding fathers came up with and it was set up for the happiness of the people and
[00:49:41] yeah, peace. Peaceful transition of power was a bedrock value. Yes, man. All right, so talk to me
[00:49:49] about George with who was he and why is he an important figure in the formation of the United States?
[00:49:59] Well, he's known as the forgotten founding father now and he shouldn't be and I'm trying to bring
[00:50:06] him back into a world of respect which he deserves. Everybody remembers Patrick Henry,
[00:50:14] you know, give me liberty or give me death but with was far more influential than Patrick Henry and
[00:50:20] it far more for the betterment of this country. And so I got really interested in him 10 years or so
[00:50:29] ago when I read an account of his death and he was the only sonner of the Declaration of Independence
[00:50:38] to be murdered. That's kind of what he's known for now but that was kind of a minor detail in his life
[00:50:45] and he was done away with by a bad nephew who wanted an early inheritance
[00:50:52] and I think he was collateral damage the nephew wanted there were some people of color who were
[00:50:58] in the will and he would inherit their share if they were gone so he poisoned everybody
[00:51:04] in the household one day. So that's that's a story that I started out with and then in the book about
[00:51:11] that the author went on and on and on about what a noble person was and I said wow this is a great guy
[00:51:21] why don't we know more about him today he's still a role model you know because we're so lacking
[00:51:27] in ethics today and he was such an ethical person admired universally and I said somebody needs
[00:51:35] to write a new biography about this guy so I couldn't at the time I had a job but as soon as I
[00:51:42] retired a light bulb went off in my head and I said I can do this book and it took me five years
[00:51:48] to do it because for some reason I couldn't focus at home so I'd have to go away to various writing
[00:51:56] retreats and spiritual retreats for two days or a week and work on it you know focus 100%
[00:52:03] on it and then come home and then a month or two would pass and then I get back to it so
[00:52:08] it took me a long time to do it because when you write history every sentence has to be correct
[00:52:15] you know you can't make up stuff and everything had to be footnoted and I had a bibliography and so on
[00:52:22] so yeah he was responsible for I think he had a huge responsibility for getting the United States off
[00:52:32] to the right start he taught 200 approximately 200 of our best leaders in the early days and these
[00:52:43] weren't just members of Congress and presidents like Jefferson but also members of the judiciary it
[00:52:50] was very important that we have honest judges because Bravery was the way of the world at that time
[00:52:57] still is in a lot of countries Bravery of Judges and so he also taught Chief Justice John Marshall
[00:53:05] and another justice of the Supreme Court as well as men who became judges at all levels of the
[00:53:13] court system and so his the number of congressmen and senators and diplomats and presidents
[00:53:20] that he influenced was very very long I have them listed in the book all I could find and one scholar
[00:53:30] said that with influence the direction of the United States for four 50 years during his time
[00:53:37] and after his time yeah and and that was in doing a research for his interview it was kind of
[00:53:46] impressive that you know he was the guy who was kind of the mentor in my mind there was an African
[00:53:55] American law professor at Howard and I can't I don't want to say the wrong name for some reason
[00:54:06] Thurston is the name that keeps coming up in my mind but there was an African American law
[00:54:11] professor at Howard that basically taught people like Thurgood Marshall and others and they
[00:54:17] created him in the same way that you talk about George with that he was the guy that that um
[00:54:25] you know mentored all of these young African American lawyers to fight the civil rights battle
[00:54:31] in the court system and so looking at Mr. With being the guy who taught Thomas Jefferson and John
[00:54:41] Marshall and all these other folks James Madison you know all these folks he was like America's first
[00:54:47] law professor uh you know some other folks will say um you know it's just that's an incredible role to
[00:54:57] have to be a mentor to all those folks and for one I understand when he died I think Jefferson
[00:55:05] was the president and Marshall was the chief justice of Supreme Court right correct yeah yes and
[00:55:12] there are members of congress in the senate and lots of governors I think I counted seven governors
[00:55:18] that he had mentored right and he taught at William and Mary is that correct yes William and Mary
[00:55:25] Williamsburg it was it's the second oldest college in in America right after Harvard right but it
[00:55:31] was way ahead of Harvard and having a law school Harvard didn't have that's law school until three
[00:55:38] decades later right because Harvard was primarily a seminary Harvard and Yale started off as seminaries
[00:55:45] more so yes and and evolved into universities that's what I think William and Mary is considered
[00:55:52] to all those liberal arts college yes well they had a wonderful opportunity when the revolution
[00:55:59] broke out all the professors who had could ties to England left and so the Virginians thought this
[00:56:07] was just great that they could reshape William and Mary their only institution of higher learning
[00:56:13] and right away they went away went on to reform it and that included America's first law school
[00:56:20] because lawyers were held in very low esteem at the time because of poor training a lack of good
[00:56:26] training right because you know we look at law now you got to go to law school we got to pass a
[00:56:33] bar and all that but back then basically all you had to do was just kind of sit around with a judge
[00:56:39] and he'll give me an examination examination and then you become a lawyer just like that right a
[00:56:47] apprenticeship to a senior lawyer but in George Whist case he was an apprentice to his uncle
[00:56:54] and his uncle was too busy really to teach him very much and just gave him Scott worked to do
[00:56:59] and you know unpaid labor and so at a very early age George Whist knew that if he was going to
[00:57:06] learn anything he'd have to learn it himself so he became one of America's most important self-taught
[00:57:13] scholars he had one of the biggest libraries in America and he wanted to share his knowledge
[00:57:20] he was a wonderful mentor and he loved teaching he loved sharing his knowledge now you you mentioned
[00:57:29] earlier about how mr. Whiff was murdered and the black man that was in question was Michael Brown
[00:57:38] um that was what I think he was his he was one of his servants um that he had freed and then
[00:57:50] he started teaching him the law is that correct that's right he was uh
[00:57:56] teaching him well I think he was too young to learn the law he would have probably
[00:58:01] gotten to that eventually but he was teaching him languages and all the things that
[00:58:07] with thought were important and and he was um described as as as a good boy you know that uh in some
[00:58:17] ways he emulated George Whist and um yeah it was very tragic because he was the first to die of
[00:58:24] the poisoning of the arsenic that was put in the coffee one morning and um the housekeeper who
[00:58:30] was also a freed slave but George Whist was paying her wages and she was working for him as a housekeeper
[00:58:38] she drank the coffee um and it did damage her but she did live on after that so the reason why I
[00:58:46] bring that up is because mr. Whiff was probably one of the earliest opponents to slavery even though
[00:58:55] he had inherited slaves uh through his through some kind of way through his family he was against it
[00:59:03] and so eventually he was one of the first of the founders to to free his slaves am I telling
[00:59:11] that's part of the story right yes there were a few other Virginians that I know of who
[00:59:17] who did free their slaves and I think they were influenced by George Whist um with had a different
[00:59:24] background from the aristocracy in in Virginia he was the um second son so he did not inherit
[00:59:32] inherit the farm and the plantation uh his older brother did eventually he did after his brother died
[00:59:38] and he did inherit the slaves but um and then when he married he married into a slave holding family
[00:59:45] you know pretty well to do family that had household servants so very quickly after his wife died
[00:59:51] he he was able legally to free the slaves but as a judge he he had to abide by the law of the land
[00:59:59] which was that slaves were property um but um toward the end of his life the last year of his life
[01:00:06] he had a case before him as a judge uh where he was able to free a woman and her two children
[01:00:14] who were slaves who wanted their freedom um on two counts the the first count was their ethnicity
[01:00:21] they more or less proved that they were Native Americans and not African Americans
[01:00:29] and then the second count he went out on a limb and he said that due to Virginia's Bill of Rights
[01:00:36] Declaration of Rights that all men all people are inherently free and he freed them on that count
[01:00:44] well that went up to the Supreme Court it's the higher court and um the people were eventually freed
[01:00:54] on the basis of race uh but I think the the ruling was struck down that that all men are free
[01:01:02] all people are free so that didn't go anywhere and um but i um with was very popular among the
[01:01:11] aristocracy he was the lawyer of of the most prominent people in Virginia but he was not like them
[01:01:19] and i credit that to his quaker heritage on his mother's side they were humanitarian
[01:01:27] they believed in the equality of people and the equality of sexes they educated their women
[01:01:33] his great grandfather wrote the first anti-slavery treatise in america back in the late 1700s
[01:01:42] and this was um i think been franklin eventually reprinted that and distributed it so
[01:01:50] George Wuth would have read what his great grandfather wrote about the evils of slavery
[01:01:55] proving in different places in the bible where it was wrong because everybody else was proving
[01:02:01] that it was was fine because the um in the old testament a lot of people had slaves so if it was in
[01:02:08] the old testament it had to be okay well multiple wives are in the old testament too
[01:02:13] so lots of things are in the old testament that we don't do today.
[01:02:17] Yes, very. All right so let's bring it forward to the present um based on your scholarship
[01:02:25] on on with and it's prize people of times Jefferson how would they view today's American law
[01:02:34] and politics? I think they would be extremely concerned and um so i wrote two books about
[01:02:44] america's government the second was called the metaphysical Thomas Jefferson and that is what
[01:02:51] Jefferson would say today if you could ask him questions about our government and other institutions
[01:02:59] and um before i started this book i went online and found living jeferson scholars who had written books
[01:03:08] and most of them had emails attached to universities so i presented this as a project
[01:03:16] if you could talk to jeferson today what questions would you ask? So i incorporated their
[01:03:20] questions as well as the ones that i had so what came forth and in that particular book
[01:03:28] and um because jeferson of course came after with um in power and uh with chose to be a judge
[01:03:39] and a teacher he that's why he's a forgotten founding father he didn't he was wasn't a general
[01:03:45] and he didn't run for president and so he chose just to be uh important in virginia anyway so
[01:03:53] i would say what jeferson um was president when partisan politics reared its ugly head
[01:04:02] and um i think he particularly it would have a lot of concerns about what's going on now
[01:04:08] so i'll list a few corruption and government um congressman serving themselves rather than the people
[01:04:16] the influence of big money in elections and and laws uh a lack of ethics in Washington
[01:04:24] biased media freedom of the press was very very important to the founding fathers but they were
[01:04:30] hoping that you know the press would be would present the facts rather than opinion
[01:04:36] a lack of critical thinking and laziness on the part of voters a violation of the essential
[01:04:42] rule of peaceful transfer of power from one leader to another what happened on january 6 would have
[01:04:49] been their worst nightmare worst nightmare um misuse of the military foreign wars that are not
[01:04:56] directly related to protecting our own shores all these are are out mentioned in my jeferson book
[01:05:05] the metaphysical times jeferson higher education becoming top heavy nut supporting students as
[01:05:12] its number one goal and erosion of the principle of church and state when it comes to funding
[01:05:18] particularly uh all the talk that's going on now about uh tax dollars for schools
[01:05:27] a religious schools that's going on now in virginia that's a very slippery slope
[01:05:32] so so if you want me to elaborate on any of those points um they're all in that book the metaphysical times
[01:05:40] jeferson which uh i want to double back on one point before i addressed that specific uh point
[01:05:47] about the book so mr. with for y'all he he was one of the signers of the declaration independence
[01:05:55] but he wasn't a signer to constitution because his wife got ill and so he left the constitution
[01:06:02] of convention to tend to this way that that's right he was a delegate to the uh convention that
[01:06:08] wrote the constitution and he played an important very very important early role um he wrote the rules
[01:06:15] of conduct for that convention based on how he he ran his own show in the legislative
[01:06:22] legislature and um without the rules of conduct it could have dissolved into chaos because
[01:06:31] every new state sent representatives and some were for the constitution some weren't there was always
[01:06:38] going to be a lot of arguing a lot of egos on parade and so you needed very strict rules but
[01:06:45] and he would have stayed and he would have been very influential in that constitutional convention
[01:06:51] but his wife became ill and he he had to go home he well he felt that he should go um
[01:06:57] but later on he was the same one of the saviors of the constitution it had to be ratified
[01:07:04] there were 13 states at the time and ratification was considered final but it really wasn't
[01:07:15] if 10 states ratified but uh if regina didn't ratify it really would have been a paper tiger it
[01:07:22] wouldn't have gone anywhere and so all eyes were on regina during their ratification convention in 1788
[01:07:30] and it was a free for all you know there almost the constitution was not ratified by the largest
[01:07:38] and most powerful and influential and wealthiest state and at the time regina's borders stretched to
[01:07:45] the Mississippi you know it was the thought leader of the country with all the founding fathers from
[01:07:52] Virginia so um Patrick Henry and a lot of influential people were lined up to oppose the ratification
[01:08:00] and he went on for hours and hours against it mainly because they feared that a powerful government
[01:08:09] could central government national government uh could overturn slavery they were very concerned
[01:08:15] about that uh or just an overriding government that would come in and invade your house and
[01:08:21] tax you to death and all that so with the promise of a bill of rights protecting individuals
[01:08:28] with persuaded the Virginia Convention to to ratify the constitution and he did so toward the end
[01:08:36] after all the haranging that went on and they listened to him because he was the senior statesman
[01:08:41] and revered for his ethics scholarship and statesmanship yeah i definitely wanted to
[01:08:51] to mention that because he's he like you said he was only founding father um in that context to be
[01:08:58] murdered and so it was he was more than just a teacher he was an active participant in in the formation
[01:09:05] of the government so let let me get back to modern day what what qualities should ethical political
[01:09:17] leaders have well one of the the questions in the book uh the metaphysical Thomas Jefferson is
[01:09:27] what would you do if you were president today and the answer that's in the book is that um
[01:09:35] i'm speaking for Jefferson right now he would might say uh i couldn't do anything right now as president
[01:09:42] because i wouldn't have a following a sufficient following uh he called for a revolution not the
[01:09:48] bloody candidate he did like revolutions but he would call for a revolution and of ethics and um but he
[01:09:56] would say that you need to start with a core group a core ethical group in congress so he would say
[01:10:05] that you know couldn't be president now because there's just too much turmoil going on couldn't
[01:10:10] get anything to but maybe i would start in congress and i would have a a a a circle of ethical ethical people
[01:10:21] and um and we would enlarge that circle and eventually uh with success we would have a large
[01:10:29] enough group that we could affect changes um he would not have liked the idea of term limits
[01:10:39] but he might feel that they're necessary today because of all the corruption in government
[01:10:46] uh he would hate all the big money that's swaying elections now they didn't have that in his day
[01:10:54] that came on later and even uh 150 years ago that was beginning to be an influence in presidential
[01:11:03] elections and um so yeah i think i think he'd be very concerned and it would would call for an ethical
[01:11:12] revolution not a bloody revolution but an ethical one and it's possible that that could take place
[01:11:20] i think things have to get so bad and people have or prading around today in Washington with no ethics
[01:11:28] caring on the big lies i hope that the public will get disgusted enough that more honest people
[01:11:37] will start running for office the problem is a lot of people who who have a good background in
[01:11:43] business and who were uh not swayed either way not terribly liberal or terribly conservative
[01:11:51] um who would be centrist a lot of them are out on the golf course you know
[01:11:56] they're just letting things go and um they need to be involved in public discourse
[01:12:03] we've become very very lazy and we think well politics is a dirty business i don't want my
[01:12:09] child involved in politics or i don't want to put my neck out there and get it chopped off
[01:12:14] uh and it is a dirty business but um we have a couple of people in congress now in my area
[01:12:22] one is a republican and one is a democrat and i follow them and they're basically really hard
[01:12:28] working public servants and um i the republican is um keeps his mouth shut about a lot of the trash
[01:12:38] that's going on and he just keeps his head down and when works same with the democrat so we need more
[01:12:46] people like that who who will be who really will work for the public so based on your answer
[01:12:54] uh accountability uh honesty uh not influenced by big money not corrupt uh and
[01:13:08] more concerned about working for the people than themselves those those would be the attributes
[01:13:14] as far as an ethical leader yes correct okay um why do you think and this will be the final
[01:13:22] question why do you think we've had such an erosion as far as ethics goes in politics
[01:13:30] because there was one particular answer in a metaphysical uh times Jefferson where the term lowest common
[01:13:39] denominator was used and and that's something that i have been saying for a long time just kind of
[01:13:46] expound upon upon that because i i believe settling for lowest common denominator is one of the reasons
[01:13:55] why politics and politics is eroded kind of numerate on that and and numerates some others elaborate
[01:14:02] on that numerates well voters have gotten lazy a lot of them are just listening to bias media
[01:14:11] and um and i think the founding fathers would be very concerned about it's been proven that some
[01:14:18] of the these media people have lied you know and they've been brought to court for lying about
[01:14:25] the election process and they've lost but if you just listen to one point of view
[01:14:31] and not try to listen to both sides of a question uh ethics will will be compromised
[01:14:40] and also um the lack of um the demise of our newspapers has been well they're not totally lost but
[01:14:49] the reduction in staffs among our newspapers is very very concerning because we used to have more
[01:14:57] investigative reporters who would fair it out corruption um at the level at all levels local
[01:15:04] state and national if people feel the people in Washington think they can get by with murder
[01:15:10] which they probably can and nobody's going to report on it or get by with corruption and nobody's
[01:15:16] going to report on it and the put and the people don't care uh then you're going to have corruption
[01:15:21] growing and um so yes we've we've gotten quite lazy we we are not critical thinkers as a country
[01:15:30] we listen to whatever social media resonates with us a lot of people love red meat even though
[01:15:37] red meat may be dishonest we still love it it appeals to them they like to be mad about everything
[01:15:44] um but we need to be balanced we need to look you know a broken clock will be right twice a day
[01:15:51] right the democrats are right occasionally the republicans are right occasionally uh but they're so
[01:15:59] bald up and partisan politics that they can't um can't even pass
[01:16:06] necessary legislation just uh legislation that everybody should agree on for example
[01:16:14] our immigration laws need congress congresses at fault to a great extent on what's happening there
[01:16:22] but but they won't pass though they won't revise the laws because they want to blame the party in power
[01:16:29] you know one thing or another and uh so partisan politics have eroded ethics
[01:16:36] people are lying now for all face lies i see them every day yeah and nobody's calling them out on it
[01:16:45] yeah and i agree with you on that i think that um you know Jefferson one of his famous uh saying
[01:16:54] or concepts was that he felt that the press was the forfe a state of government
[01:17:00] that that was the tool to inform the masses and uh hold elected officials especially government
[01:17:09] because he was one of the anti-federals um so he wanted to have something to hold that
[01:17:16] government monster in his viewpoint in check and that's why he valued the press
[01:17:22] and when the press is not honest and forfe right then that's going to miss you know
[01:17:29] misinformed people and lead to chaos um so yeah um i definitely agree with that assessment
[01:17:36] and as somebody that's been a former elected official you know i've seen it firsthand
[01:17:42] and and trying to navigate through that to do your job is not easy and so i respect the
[01:17:50] congressman that you mentioned and anybody else and we need more people like that
[01:17:56] all right so that's my commentary now it's time to plug your books how can people
[01:18:02] get uh Jefferson's godfather the man behind the man and the metaphysical time is Jefferson
[01:18:08] and how can they reach you to try to you know get you to because you do a TED talk as well about
[01:18:14] ethics and government so go ahead make your make your plug oh well uh my two books about
[01:18:22] government so far i've got another one coming but it's not on amazon yet but they're available on
[01:18:28] amazon the first is Jefferson's godfather um my name is suzean monson and um that's the biography
[01:18:37] of George with and the second one is the metaphysical thomas jaiverson what jaiverson would say today
[01:18:43] about not just about government but about all of our institutions religion higher education
[01:18:51] use of the military and a number of subjects so um i think you can reach me i why have an author
[01:19:00] site which is in the books it's suzean monson dash author dot com and you can reach me that way
[01:19:11] so um and i think there's information in the books about how you can reach me through my publisher
[01:19:19] my email may be in there probably probably i know my website is well uh suzean monson
[01:19:28] it has really been an honor and a privilege to talk to you uh you know as somebody has now been
[01:19:35] against on a podcast anytime you want to come on you more than welcome um uh i think
[01:19:42] you know the the beauty of history is that we can find our way through turbulent times if we just
[01:19:52] understand where we came from and so your contribution to helping us find our way is greatly
[01:19:59] appreciated and i thank you for writing those books and i thank you for coming on the podcast
[01:20:04] my pleasure all right guys and we're going to catch up on the other side
[01:20:14] and
[01:20:31] all right and we are back and so now it is time for our final guest
[01:20:36] and that guest is dr karen el cox karen el cox is a professor of history at the university of
[01:20:43] north carolina at charlie an award-winning historian and a distinguished lecturer for the
[01:20:49] organization of american historians she is the author of four books and editor or co-editor
[01:20:56] of two volumes of southern his on southern history her books include dixies daughters
[01:21:01] the united daughters of the confederacy and the preservation of confederate culture
[01:21:06] dreaming of dixie how the south was created in american popular culture go castle a true story of
[01:21:14] murder race and the gothic south and most recently no common ground confederate monuments and the
[01:21:20] ongoing fight for racial justice she has an essay in the new york times bestseller myth america
[01:21:28] historians take on the biggest legends and lies about our past dr cox has written op ed's for
[01:21:34] the new york times to watch it in post cnn time magazine publishers weekly smisony and magazine
[01:21:42] and the huffington post she has given dozens of media interviews in united states and around
[01:21:48] the world especially on the topic of confederate monuments she appeared in henry luas gates pbs
[01:21:54] documentary reconstruction america after the civil war lucy war sleaze american histories big
[01:22:03] as fibs sort of bbc and the emmy nominated documentary the neutral ground which examines
[01:22:08] the underlying history of confederate monuments through the lens of monument removal in new
[01:22:14] orlands her current book in progress explores the rhythm club fire a tragedy it took the lives of
[01:22:21] more than two hundred african americans in natures miss ifi in nineteen forty when it happened
[01:22:28] it was the deadliest club club fire in the history of the united states ladies and gentlemen
[01:22:34] is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast dr karen ill cox
[01:22:52] all right dr karen el cox how you doing you doing good i'm doing great i'm happy to be with you erick
[01:23:03] i am really honored to have you i had seen you on some some documentaries i think you were on one with
[01:23:11] professor gates dealing with reconstruction and then of course i saw the miss ifi connection that you
[01:23:18] got your phd at at southern miss ifi and i was you know i lived in miss ifi for 34 years and i said
[01:23:24] oh yeah well i got to get her on so especially with the subject matter you deal with so i just
[01:23:30] i'm really honored to have you thank you all right so what i normally do is i try to pull out a quote
[01:23:38] that relates to either the topic that we're dealing with something that you might have written or
[01:23:44] something that you might have said and so this is your quote says the landscapes of government
[01:23:50] institution should not send the message through flags or monuments that any of his citizens are
[01:23:57] second class tell me tell me about that quote i think i think that might come from that huffington post
[01:24:06] piece um right after the charleston massacre at mother manual church i
[01:24:16] i felt like i wanted to write about it and i felt like it was bigger than a flag it was the
[01:24:22] flag in a monument but it's an entire culture but i have i have been consistent about this since then
[01:24:32] that these symbols which is a symbol of a war fought to maintain the system of slavery do not belong
[01:24:44] on government grounds those places are seats of democracy in those whether it's a county court house
[01:24:52] or it's the state house this supposed to be the senate seat seat of democracy in that county or
[01:24:59] that state and you're not you're sending out a terrible message to african americans in particular
[01:25:08] of their second class citizenship that other words you venerate the confederacy
[01:25:15] without consideration of all citizens in that in that state or that county or
[01:25:21] you know in the region so it's my point of view that that's they absolutely do not belong there
[01:25:29] yeah and unfortunately that's where the vast majority are
[01:25:33] yeah exactly and uh yeah it's it's it's it's an amazing thing and we'll kind of touch on a little bit
[01:25:42] in the interview but uh i want to i want you to explain to the listeners this concept of the lost cause
[01:25:52] what does that mean and then whether the five myths that have evolved from that term in your perspective
[01:26:02] well the lost cause is a um is a narrative of a mythology that emerges right after the civil war ends
[01:26:16] in the south the term lost calls comes from the title of a book called the lost calls that was written
[01:26:23] and published in 1866 by a guy named Edward Pollard he was a journalist enrichment
[01:26:29] and that term came to represent how white southerners felt about Confederate defeat
[01:26:37] that it was their lost cause and sometimes they refer to it as a sacred cause
[01:26:44] um and so and so as any mythology has it has myths built within the myth of the larger mythology
[01:26:53] and so um i'm not gonna i i chose five for an article that i worked on for the Washington Post but
[01:27:01] i i'm gonna try to come i don't remember all five is there so many of them i picked but the number one
[01:27:08] myth is that the war wasn't about slavery that's the number one myth that the war was about
[01:27:16] states rights not slavery um there's also a myth that somehow the Ku Klux Klan of Reconstruction
[01:27:27] was some heroic organization that they reestablished the racial order in the south
[01:27:34] there's a myth about Robert E. Lee as being a kindly you know master of slaves and when he
[01:27:42] was a brutal master um or that were a myth that the only reason that the south lost the war
[01:27:50] was because they were outnumbered and the north had more munitions and so all of these myths are
[01:28:00] excuses for defeat or tries to justify defeat um and and help you know because white southerners
[01:28:10] that when they entered this war or the civil war that they were they were going to swiftly defeat
[01:28:18] the north because they befelt they they had better civilization that they had you know the better
[01:28:24] soldiers etc and so being so handily defeated um led them to create this mythology and as i say it
[01:28:37] emerges during reconstruction but it grows and and gains in strength over time well into the 20th
[01:28:48] century and i would say it's still with us today because people will still say that war wasn't
[01:28:56] fought over slavery it was over states rights that the war was not about slavery i mean we witnessed
[01:29:03] recently with niki hailey a presidential candidate who was you know hesitant to say when asked
[01:29:13] that the war was about slavery and there is no question that that's what it was about but what's
[01:29:22] important i think for people to understand about the loss calls mythology and narrative i'm just
[01:29:29] like it's a bag of a sacrifice is what it is but what it it what's what's important though to understand
[01:29:36] it just how how embedded it is within southern culture and in the white south but also the ways in
[01:29:45] which people outside of the south bought into the myth because i can look at i could if i you know
[01:29:54] we were looking at images just imagine this image of people in even during the civil rights movement
[01:30:03] harassing people at a lunch counter we would think you know and i can give you an example of
[01:30:09] i could show you a photograph of that happening at a white castle in brox new york
[01:30:16] with all the battle flags this online people can look it up
[01:30:19] and there was a you know protest by the congress of racial equality in 1963 to desegregate the white
[01:30:27] castle and in the Bronx and people showed up in the Bronx white young white men waving confederate
[01:30:35] battle flags so what i'm saying is about the lost causes that it's been you know accepted
[01:30:44] and used outside of the region and essentially it's you know it's a you know a way of
[01:30:52] justified and maintaining their own racism and ideas of white supremacy yeah and
[01:31:00] you know it was like it was really telling about um ambassador hailey because she was the governor
[01:31:09] of south carolina is anybody that would know that and especially considering the the tragedy
[01:31:16] happened at mother manual church which led her to take the flag down as the governor that you
[01:31:22] know that that would have been one of those no brainer questions um you know that also the she
[01:31:29] well knows that south carolina was the first date to secede from the union and in their ordinance
[01:31:35] of secession they take say it was about slavery exactly exactly she just like got blinders on
[01:31:44] but actually she's being a politician here she's trying to have it both ways she comes out later
[01:31:50] and acknowledges it but then she also you know kind of plays footsie with the neo confederates yeah
[01:31:57] and and that's that's a whole issue about it and that's the reason why i wanted to highlight this
[01:32:05] deal about the lost cause because as you pointed out it doesn't matter what part of the country it's
[01:32:11] in uh you see that that that confederate emblem um you know being being used uh and and throughout
[01:32:23] the civil rights movement they were states well especially after brown versus the board of education
[01:32:28] states were putting the confederate flag into their state flag and in some southern states have
[01:32:34] been slick with it like Arkansas for example uh florida texas they did it in a way where it didn't
[01:32:43] immediately draw the iron whatever but if you understand the and i think the term is etymology
[01:32:49] whatever about flags uh when i had etymology lexlexa something because etymology's words
[01:32:57] but i had to learn all that when i was dealing with my flag stuff in Mississippi but
[01:33:02] they incorporated the confederate flag in in in in genius ways in some of those southern states so
[01:33:09] and then the other thing it was if we were doing a quiz show you would have got three of the five
[01:33:14] that you said right sorry i don't know what the other two look like so many of them yeah you threw
[01:33:21] in the one about the clan which you know thanks to the birth of a nation that that that that kind
[01:33:27] of propelled that myth but the other two you had mentioned was confederate monuments only recently
[01:33:32] becoming controversial and removing confederate monuments is a racing history yeah i could well
[01:33:39] i'm happy to talk about that because that's that's just one of those things that people
[01:33:44] say all the time like oh you're you know you're a racing history you're not a racing history if
[01:33:50] you remove a monument because monuments aren't about history to begin with they don't they don't
[01:33:55] represent history what they represent is a memory that white southerners have of the war and their
[01:34:04] ancestors etc which glorifies the confederacy so you're not you know to me they're monuments
[01:34:11] of the Jim Crow period they're artifacts of the Jim Crow period so you're not with this isn't
[01:34:17] about civil war history at all so that's that's one and also there's an assumption that oh
[01:34:27] we didn't have a problem with confederate monuments being on the landscape until Black Lives Matter
[01:34:32] movement started you know criticizing him well that's just not true either because there's been
[01:34:38] an ongoing critique of confederate monuments from the day of days of Frederick Douglass I mean he
[01:34:46] makes a comment about it for in 1870 he's not East East you know and then W.E.B. Du Bois also
[01:34:55] criticizes monuments and southern black journalist also are criticizing monuments I mean it just
[01:35:04] I don't you know give you numerous examples so it isn't something that happened only in recent years
[01:35:12] there is a legacy of protest against confederate monuments by black communities in the south now
[01:35:23] how they did that in the early Jim Crow period yes they couldn't go and protest a monument physically
[01:35:29] protest they would have been lynched for that but there there are ways in which they can
[01:35:37] have a conversation about that to you know I know that some of them were defaced you know if
[01:35:43] you can't get caught you can they you know some of them might have been defaced in that way
[01:35:48] um but you know in the pages of the Chicago defender for example you know I ran across a column
[01:35:57] it's like what the called what do you think about it one of the and they would ask a question
[01:36:01] each week and that question was do you think there should be a federal law prohibiting
[01:36:08] monuments to the confederacy and as we know these the defender goes through you know get shared
[01:36:14] throughout the south and people wrote in and said yes it was a resounding yes you know that we
[01:36:22] we wish there were a federal law prohibiting confederate monuments because if we didn't have
[01:36:28] these things then you know why people in the south wouldn't be so you know encouraged
[01:36:37] to practice hatred against our people that was one of the responses but there are several you know
[01:36:42] so there were ways in which those critiques were there now once the in those years immediately
[01:36:50] following the civil rights movement I mean you know those acts the civil rights act and the voting
[01:36:56] rights act were passed then you see a much more than you see people coming out and protesting
[01:37:04] you know physically protesting against these monuments and so um and and again when when uh you get
[01:37:13] you see the first elected officials since reconstruction they make they begin to criticize
[01:37:19] these things in the 70s and so yeah so there's this longer history and people need to understand
[01:37:25] that it didn't the protest just didn't happen in the last few years yeah and there's one example
[01:37:33] that I want you to kind of um delve into a little more if we've we got time but I think
[01:37:40] we're gonna have time to get to it but I want to ask a couple other questions before we got to that
[01:37:46] I believe there's a direct correlation between mom's celebrity and united daughters of confederacy
[01:37:52] do you agree with that and if you do what do you think the correlation is from a historical
[01:37:58] perspective right I thought about this because um because people have asked me about this and
[01:38:06] I think there is there are some parallels there absolutely um one being that the united daughters
[01:38:14] of confederacy was you know uh made their presence known in the school system they wanted they were
[01:38:21] you know monitoring textbooks to make sure that the textbooks were in that in their case you
[01:38:27] know sympathetic to the south of the confederacy and likewise mom's for liberty are monitoring textbooks
[01:38:33] although and banning them you know um the mom's uh mom's for liberty united daughters of the
[01:38:41] confederacy are both organizations very are very well connected politically the members of the UDC
[01:38:49] uh were um uh married to related to in some fashion to the to the um power brokers in in the south
[01:39:01] and in that early period and similarly mom's for liberty have people in their organization
[01:39:07] that are also connected to political power I mean look um several you know a few months ago
[01:39:16] in Philadelphia at the Museum of the American Revolution they had a meeting and the main
[01:39:23] you know presidential candidates for the republican party were there um but they're also it's
[01:39:29] well you know um that couple in Florida can't even help Bridget Ziegler yeah right he's got herself
[01:39:38] in some hot water but here she she's like married to the guy who's the head was head of the GOP
[01:39:45] in Florida but and they also accept pack money down there that the mom's for liberty now
[01:39:53] in other words so there are similarities there too the united daughters of the confederacy if
[01:39:58] they wanted it shake down politicians to get money for their projects they wanted these these
[01:40:04] monuments built they want you know certain things done and the mom's for liberty know exactly how to
[01:40:09] go for go after um you know politicians uh to get what they want and so there are a lot of similarities
[01:40:18] that think where they differ is the you know the level I mean one more thing the united daughters
[01:40:25] of the confederacy while it mostly existed in the south and was founded in the south had chapters
[01:40:31] in every state in the union and so likewise mom's for liberty starts in the south and has spread
[01:40:38] throughout all you know all the states in the union but I think what's different is is that um
[01:40:45] the ability of social media to grow that organization and the um their ability to fundraise at an
[01:40:52] amount that we couldn't even fathom um in for mom's for liberty but so this there are those
[01:41:00] those things um but one of the big differences in you know where it comes to school school boards
[01:41:07] etc the UDC and the Jim Crow South the united daughters of the confederacy did not have
[01:41:14] to worry did not have to bug the school boards did not have to bully school boards to get what they
[01:41:20] want because everybody is white people in the south are on the same page they believed in that
[01:41:26] they believed in the system of Jim Crow white supremacy and you know and and putting books into children's
[01:41:32] hands that are going to you know perpetuate that it's different now me and because there's there's more
[01:41:39] diversity political diversity within the south and so um you know so so what we have now is you know
[01:41:48] moms for liberty like bullying uh board school boards and teachers which would have had to happen
[01:41:56] in you know the Jim Crow South but now that it happens but I think that if the UDC hadn't got what
[01:42:02] they wanted they would have acted just like that they would have bullied people I kind of have the same
[01:42:08] feeling yeah I gotta see if I can they would have had the cloud to do the bully so I'm gonna ask
[01:42:17] am I asked you a tough question okay when historians in the future look back about the laws
[01:42:23] caused ethos myth ethos mythology which US president will they say gave it more life
[01:42:30] Woodrow Wilson or Donald Trump oh god well you know historians don't play that crystal ball game
[01:42:42] generally yeah right they're not like you know um
[01:42:52] I think what happened in the early Jim Crow period you had not just Woodrow Wilson had
[01:42:59] William Howard taft before him that that was very sympathetic to the south and Woodrow but
[01:43:06] they didn't need the president yeah the UDC didn't because this was a uh on the ground operation
[01:43:14] most UDC chapter the UDC wasn't like um while they had a national
[01:43:20] organization and they had officers at that it really functioned on a local level
[01:43:26] so the so in uh in in order for them to perpetuate the lost cause I think the lost calls really got
[01:43:32] spread um locally and regionally so they would have done it without the president I think what's
[01:43:45] interesting about you know some people disagree with me that I you know that that that Trump is
[01:43:53] perpetuated in a lost cause it with my continued harp on the big lie right but I think there is
[01:44:01] they're they're not the same but they're similar so Trump's law has his own lost cause
[01:44:10] is it true yeah he has his own lost cause and he and he's doing though
[01:44:16] the same kinds of things right it's a reaction to loss
[01:44:21] he lost the election and we have to justify the loss or blame the loss on other things other than
[01:44:29] our own failures and and so that's the way in which you know his movement and the lost calls are
[01:44:37] similar yeah so in essence you're saying he's creating his own ethos as opposed to attaching it to
[01:44:46] the historical ethos that the lost cause true but he also he dabbles in it right he
[01:44:53] dabbles in the lost cause when he you know especially after Charlottesville and saying that there
[01:45:00] were five people on both sides that kind of thing he he dabbles in it when he he'll say things about
[01:45:07] about monuments you know and he knows which buttons to push right all right so
[01:45:16] in the fore getting back to what you were talking about about movements to deal with monuments
[01:45:24] in the fourth chapter your book no common ground you tell a story about Harvey Gantt which I think
[01:45:30] epitomizes white backlash kind of summarized that story for the audience um well Harvey Gantt for
[01:45:42] people who may be unfamiliar he probably is best known from his campaign against Jesse Helms for
[01:45:53] the US Senate back in 1990 but his political career began much earlier first of all he's a trained
[01:46:01] architect he's the first he helped he's integrated Clemson University um he you know and he first
[01:46:11] he was he was something like the second African-American to serve on the city council in Charlotte
[01:46:16] North Carolina and in 1980 became the first black mayor of Charlotte and served two terms so that's
[01:46:24] that's a little bit of his history and but he represented that group of of black elected officials
[01:46:33] that were elected after the voting rights act um and the first black elected officials that that
[01:46:42] generation that that were elected since reconstruction and um he
[01:46:49] there was an effort in Charlotte to place a Confederate monument in 1977 which is lay
[01:46:57] 1977 on the grounds of the city hall now and he spoke out against it and he he he spoke out
[01:47:07] against it eloquently he knew what that all of that meant because he had grown up in Charleston
[01:47:12] South Carolina he was confronted with a Confederacy on a daily basis but he knew his history
[01:47:20] he knew his history really well and he he kind of spoke from that understanding and that knowledge
[01:47:26] and um but still regardless that monument went on the grounds of city hall he but he
[01:47:35] continued to have be successful politically in Charlotte and he get to 1990 to you know
[01:47:42] to go up in in a US Senate race against Chessie Helms and he he was doing well in that
[01:47:50] in that race until they ran this there's a famous ad called the Hands ad where it looks like a white
[01:48:00] job applicant it's just wads up his application and throws it away because he's not going to get
[01:48:09] this job because of affirmative action you know he'll you'll have to you know this
[01:48:14] and um and and he told me I interviewed him for this for the book and he said
[01:48:21] you know would that ad just change the race to change the race but he was he still did really well
[01:48:28] he he got 47% of the vote in the state so he did very very well but that scared them
[01:48:37] but Jesus out of people in the in the GOP in North Carolina I mean I think it scared him
[01:48:45] probably across the country because what you see in the 1990s four years after that race
[01:48:53] was the um the return of Republicans to control over the House of Representatives and their
[01:49:04] and New Green Grigis leading them with this contract you know for America but what you begin to see
[01:49:09] in the 1990s as a backlash to success in in the success of of African-Americans since the Civil
[01:49:19] Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act there had been a lot of progress and that just that and they
[01:49:25] couldn't take you know white Sunners in particular couldn't take it but I think white Americans
[01:49:30] uh you know some of them you know couldn't take it as well and so there's we begin to see a backlash
[01:49:37] against that progress and you begin to see the initial efforts at uh gerrymandering in the South
[01:49:46] and gerrymandering districts and it's only gotten worse as many people know yeah I would yeah
[01:49:53] in North Carolina and I'm it's so bad it's so gerrymandered that now I mean you know you
[01:50:01] be hard to you know elect um democrats you know into the state legislature so what we have now is
[01:50:10] essentially minority rule right and it's not just in the South because you know we were talking about
[01:50:17] you know Wisconsin for example I was talking to another guest uh at one time and
[01:50:24] if you looked at the statewide numbers two-thirds of the electorate and Wisconsin voted for a
[01:50:30] Democrat to be in a in a legislative position but the the legislature because of gerrymandering
[01:50:37] redistricting the majority of the legislature is Republican uh so yeah that that was a big deal but
[01:50:45] the the other thing I wanted to highlight about the Gantt story which I appreciate you know what
[01:50:50] you were telling the reason it the monument was 1977 for I understand was because
[01:50:57] councilman Gantt and others were pushing for a monument for dr. King and dr. King and dr. King's
[01:51:04] monument was approved and so is this other councilman in in on the there that said well if you
[01:51:10] gonna have accounts uh basically you're gonna have a monument for dr. King then we need to have
[01:51:14] a monument for the Confederacy and that's that's how that fight started um there's there's been
[01:51:20] several examples of that was like there's a scene they tried it's a false equivalence you know
[01:51:25] between what dr. King represented who wanted to see you know who who represented the best of
[01:51:33] democracy and then and then those who tried to tear it apart right and uh yeah go ahead yeah no I
[01:51:42] that's fine that I was thinking about you know there was a similar case um and I can't think
[01:51:49] I can't give you the dates but it was in Alabama where there were efforts to erect a monument to um
[01:51:56] I just blanked on it
[01:52:04] oh for goodness that's okay Jesse Jesse the runner oh Jesse Owens Jesse Owens sorry I don't know why
[01:52:14] I just blanked on it Jesse Owens there was an effort to put a monument to Jesse Owens in
[01:52:19] the town he was from in Alabama and the way it was the response was well if you're gonna do that we
[01:52:25] need a Confederate monument yeah and it was that kind of thing which which leaves me to this question
[01:52:32] what what can history teach us about how to deal with white backlash because that to me that seems
[01:52:39] to be the major problem you know whenever you see some progress whether it was reconstruction or
[01:52:46] like you you highlighted after civil rights movement and you almost you know it's coming
[01:52:54] so what history is supposed to be a guide to teach us how to do better what can we learn from
[01:53:00] history to try to to navigate around it or even defeat white backlash so it won't won't alter the
[01:53:08] landscape like it like it normally does well I think the thing the problem that we're seeing
[01:53:14] what we're facing right now is like history can teach you those lessons and can be useful
[01:53:22] and and there's been a generation of young people who have learned good lessons from history
[01:53:29] about how this all functions but in in the last few years as you know there's been a tax on
[01:53:37] teaching history they call it CRT but what they're saying is they don't want you to learn about
[01:53:43] black history right call it something whatever you want but what you're saying is we you know
[01:53:50] and so they're whitewashing history right now and they know that this to me this is like a page
[01:53:56] out of the playbook of the United Daughters of the Confederacy we're going to teach you one kind of
[01:54:01] history and you will come to believe that history and you will come to defend that history
[01:54:08] and you will not know what else is you know because everything else is outside of your blinders
[01:54:14] and and so so this is this is why I speak and I write about these things and everything because
[01:54:24] it's like we can't give in to the moms for liberty we can't give in to that and it's a sad
[01:54:32] state of affairs because I history does teach us those lessons and I think that the you know
[01:54:40] that there's been you know people in the GOP or on the on the right have been playing a long game
[01:54:48] here and and they and then in recent years started going after school curriculum
[01:54:55] in school textbooks and and and in doing that they're preventing people from learning that history
[01:55:04] I think the battle then is at the local level with local school boards and and things like that
[01:55:13] that people have to like you know Democrats are not good about putting up a fight
[01:55:19] they're not not the white ones anyway you know because because you're one of the things
[01:55:27] they'll say it's like you know that the GOP has always been like well-organized and I know how
[01:55:33] to get their people out there and I don't think the Democratic Party does that as well
[01:55:40] you know and and and things kind of like all of a sudden it's here and now they're like
[01:55:46] ringing their hands about it but you can see it coming you know yeah so what I
[01:55:51] yeah so what I try to do is push back against against this these false narratives about the past
[01:56:04] we all need to do that we're all trying to figure it out there are there are several
[01:56:09] people on TikTok historians on TikTok they're doing a pretty decent job of that far
[01:56:15] the reason I got over there and I've made some tech talks about the lost cause and things like that
[01:56:21] it's why I do interviews for podcasts like yours it's why I um I've signed on to Amicus Briefs
[01:56:30] about this kind of thing it's I mean you know I I'm only one person but I'm trying to do everything
[01:56:37] I can and I think that each of us has has to do that um but history has good lessons for us
[01:56:46] yeah and we ought to you know we are the youth of our nation ought to be able to learn that
[01:56:52] history read that history and make their own decisions I agree totally with that yes ma'am
[01:56:59] all right so we're up against it but I wanted you to talk a little bit about this book that
[01:57:03] you're working on dealing with the uh rhythm nightclub fire that happened in natures I guess
[01:57:10] it was like April of 1940 right yeah I I've worked on a history book set in natures Mississippi before
[01:57:22] and I learned about this awful tragedy called the rhythm club fire and it it took the lives officially
[01:57:31] of 209 African-Americans that fire did and I my research I uncovered more than that
[01:57:41] but I was like how how is it that I could have lived in Mississippi studied at the University
[01:57:47] Southern Mississippi and not learned about something that would an event a tragedy that was
[01:57:52] the deadliest club fire in the history of the United States when it happened and continues to be
[01:57:59] in the top five and this because of who died right we all know this in the era Jim Crow who paid
[01:58:08] attention so I wanted to write a book about the fire but also um I mean the the story itself has
[01:58:18] many layers to it and I want to talk about it through the lens of not only Jim Crow Mississippi
[01:58:26] but also the connections between Mississippi and Chicago because a band from Chicago was playing that night
[01:58:35] several members of that band perished in that fire one of whom Walter Barnes who's the leader
[01:58:41] of the band was from Vicksburg so there's a there's story to be told about the about the great migration
[01:58:51] that it wasn't just as clean uh clean cut as everybody wanted to get out of the Jim Crow South
[01:58:59] people still have family back in Mississippi they still had friends in Mississippi the band
[01:59:06] was touring the south on the Chitlin circuit going to black clubs playing black club clubs because
[01:59:12] their people wanted to hear that music too because you know of course clubs were segregated at this point
[01:59:20] and so I wanted to I've been thinking a lot about this you know about this as a migration story because
[01:59:29] and it's it's it's about that but it's about it's about the black press how the black press covered it
[01:59:36] it's about music it's about jazz in that period it's about um the blues because there were
[01:59:42] at least half a dozen blues songs written about this event and also it brings us back to Richard
[01:59:49] Wright because Richard Wright who was from there Adams County lived in that just for when he's
[01:59:56] a little boy but he had he's his father still lived there when this fire took place in 1958
[02:00:05] Richard Wright wrote a book um that was published in 58 called The Long Dream
[02:00:10] was one of the last books he published and in the center of that book is a club fire with all the
[02:00:17] markings from the rhythm club and in some ways you know I feel like Mississippi never let
[02:00:26] Richard Wright go he left but it was still tugging at him
[02:00:32] and so he you know he wrote this book but it was based on he had gone to visit his father he
[02:00:37] probably I think about six weeks after the fire he gone to natures and he probably saw the burned
[02:00:43] out you know building and you know a new you know how it how it was impacting people there um so
[02:00:50] I think there's just so much so much it's rich about this story and it's a story that makes
[02:00:57] I feel like I want to tell this story I mean I know I'm a white person I'm about as white as you can
[02:01:02] get in color but I but I I like to say I'd like I care about history and in my heart I care about
[02:01:12] the people that I'm writing about and I care about that those victims get their just due and have
[02:01:20] their story told and not as a number but as who they were and what that meant to that to their
[02:01:27] community and a few weeks from now I'm flying to San Antonio to meet this woman
[02:01:34] if I interview twice who I know is the probably the last surviving witness to the fire she's
[02:01:41] turned a hundred years old wow and and she lived right next door to the rhythm club
[02:01:50] and she was sixteen when it happened had tickets and didn't go and that's why she's still
[02:01:55] with us today wow well when when the book comes out you know you're going to have to make a stop here
[02:02:01] and talk about it oh absolutely all right and and I'm hoping to be in Chicago this summer to do
[02:02:07] do some research I've applied for fellowship fingers crossed yeah well going into summer is better
[02:02:14] than going into the winter I tell you um that's what I hear so uh tell people how they can get in touch
[02:02:21] with you in the meantime and uh you know you know plug anything that you want to plug yeah um I have a
[02:02:30] website um Karen Cox historian Owen word Karen Cox historian.com and there's a place on there
[02:02:39] people wanted to email me you know there's a contact form there and I'm pretty good about
[02:02:44] responding and uh you know if anything if anybody's listening out there that knows this story
[02:02:51] the rhythm club or you know um and wants to tell me their story I'd love to hear it
[02:02:58] I'd like even if it's passed down because that's still part of the the memory of the of the
[02:03:03] you know of the event well dr. Karen el Cox uh it has been an honor to have you on I knew it was
[02:03:12] going to be a good interview um and uh you know it was like you were you were kind of getting a
[02:03:19] little frustrated because you can remember Jesse Owens and but you know the old adage I tell
[02:03:25] people is you know I know I've forgotten more stuff than you'll ever know so you know I'll
[02:03:32] I'll give you that credit because you you've really done in-depth research throughout your whole
[02:03:37] life about Southern history and I think it's in the in a political discussion I think
[02:03:45] it is really really important to have somebody with your authority and your knowledge
[02:03:51] in the discussion because I believe that a lot of the politics that we're dealing with now
[02:03:58] stems from wounds and and hurt and and lack of pride based on uh what it what happened in the
[02:04:08] Civil War we're still fighting those battles so I thank you for coming on and I look forward
[02:04:13] to having you on in the future thank you Eric I've enjoyed our conversation very much
[02:04:19] yes ma'am all right guys and we'll catch y'all on the other side
[02:04:24] you
[02:04:41] until next time
[02:04:54] you