Host Erik Fleming speaks with Dr. Wylin D. Wilson and Dr. Terri Givens about ethics, womanist bioethics, the role of the Black church in community care, and the politics of radical empathy. The episode covers Hurricane Melissa relief, recent election outcomes, and how education, empathy, and faith shape civic life and public health.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:01:04 --> 00:01:10 Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:07 And we have a good episode this go-around.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:11 Both of my guests exude a pleasantness.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:17 And even when we're talking about some heavy subjects, it was really,
00:02:17 --> 00:02:20 really a joy to have these interviews with them.
00:02:20 --> 00:02:27 And so the emphasis of this podcast is ethics and empathy.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:34 And the two young ladies who are scholars, college professors,
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38 all that, in their own respective way, talk about those issues.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:47 And I hope that it is enlightening to you as it was to me talking to them about
00:02:47 --> 00:02:52 it, and I hope that it gives some encouragement in this time.
00:02:55 --> 00:02:56 So we...
00:02:57 --> 00:03:04 So I'm really, really enthused about that. And I hope that you enjoy the show as it progresses.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:10 You know, before we, you know, go into the show and bring Grace forward,
00:03:10 --> 00:03:18 I do want to remind folks that you're still trying to generate funds to help the people in Jamaica.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:25 And if you know of some sites for, you know, some of the other locations that
00:03:25 --> 00:03:30 were hit, like Haiti, Dominican Republic, even Cuba, you know, let me know.
00:03:30 --> 00:03:37 But the website I've been pushing is supportjamaica.gov.jm.
00:03:37 --> 00:03:44 They had the foresight to put that together before the storm actually hit.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:51 And so if you go to that website, you can donate there.
00:03:51 --> 00:03:57 The United States has committed $24 million to help, I think,
00:03:57 --> 00:04:03 Haiti, Jamaica, Cuba, I think, and the Bahamas.
00:04:03 --> 00:04:07 I think they've committed money to that, and half of that $24 million is going
00:04:07 --> 00:04:11 to Jamaica, because Jamaica was the hardest hit out of all of them.
00:04:12 --> 00:04:16 Cuba had a direct hit, but it was a Category 3 when they hit Cuba.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:21 Not that that's light by any stretch of imagination, because Katrina,
00:04:21 --> 00:04:23 by the time it hit Jackson, Mississippi was a three.
00:04:24 --> 00:04:27 And, you know, it was, I think it
00:04:27 --> 00:04:31 was a four or three when it actually hit Mississippi Waveland altogether.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:36 But Jamaica had a category five hurricane.
00:04:36 --> 00:04:42 Melissa was category five when it hit them. So they're still in the recovery phase of,
00:04:43 --> 00:04:53 and there. So please, if you go to supportjamaica.gov.jm, you can assist in that endeavor.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 We're still trying to get, you know, subscribers and all that.
00:04:58 --> 00:05:01 So you can go to patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming,
00:05:01 --> 00:05:04 or you can go to momenterik.com.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 And that's Eric with a K on both of those.
00:05:07 --> 00:05:10 And, you know, and continue to support our podcast because, you know,
00:05:10 --> 00:05:16 we're trying to stay independent and trying to stay focused in on issues and
00:05:16 --> 00:05:23 have discussions that will hopefully enlighten and expose the audience to a
00:05:23 --> 00:05:27 lot of people that maybe won't be exposed.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 I've been very fortunate to get some people that have been on mainstream media,
00:05:31 --> 00:05:34 you know, or been on the headlines and all that.
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 But there are a lot of people that are doing the work and trying to do their
00:05:39 --> 00:05:43 part to change this nation for the better.
00:05:44 --> 00:05:48 And your support will allow me to continue to uplift those folks.
00:05:48 --> 00:05:54 So, all right, enough about that. Let's go on and get this show on the road.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:58 And as always, we kick it off with a Moment of News with Grace G.
00:06:05 --> 00:06:10 Thanks, Erik. Following dual federal court orders, the Trump administration
00:06:10 --> 00:06:15 announced a plan to partially fund November SNAP benefits for millions of Americans.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 Hurricane Melissa caused at least 83 deaths across Jamaica, Haiti,
00:06:20 --> 00:06:25 and the Dominican Republic, along with an estimated tens of billions of dollars
00:06:25 --> 00:06:27 in damage and economic loss.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:31 Nancy Pelosi, the first woman to serve as Speaker of the U.S.
00:06:31 --> 00:06:36 House of Representatives, will not seek re-election to Congress in 2026.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:43 Democrats gained significant momentum ahead of next year's midterms by sweeping major elections,
00:06:43 --> 00:06:48 including Zoran Mamdani's mayoral win in New York City, gubernatorial victories
00:06:48 --> 00:06:52 for Abigail Spanberger in Virginia and Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey,
00:06:52 --> 00:06:55 and two utility commissioners in Georgia.
00:06:55 --> 00:07:00 California voters overwhelmingly supported a referendum to create more U.S.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:02 House seats favoring Democrats.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:08 Maryland Governor Wes Moore established a new redistricting commission to recommend
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 improvements to the state's congressional map before the 2026 midterm elections.
00:07:13 --> 00:07:18 A U.S. appeals court overturned a Chicago judge's order that required a top
00:07:18 --> 00:07:22 border official to report to her daily about his agent's activities in the city.
00:07:22 --> 00:07:29 Americans shopping for 2026 Obamacare plans face a more than doubling of average
00:07:29 --> 00:07:34 monthly premiums due to the potential end of COVID-19 pandemic-era subsidies.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 New Mexico became the first U.S. state to offer free child care to all residents,
00:07:40 --> 00:07:42 regardless of income, through state vouchers.
00:07:43 --> 00:07:47 The NAACP filed a lawsuit against Virginia state election officials,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:52 alleging they are disenfranchising students by rejecting their voter registration
00:07:52 --> 00:07:56 forms for not including details like dormitory room numbers.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:02 Federal prosecutors charged two men in Michigan with firearms offenses related
00:08:02 --> 00:08:08 to an alleged ISIS-inspired plot to carry out a U.S. attack on October 31st.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:13 And former Vice President Dick Cheney died at the age of 84.
00:08:14 --> 00:08:18 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:30 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for
00:08:30 --> 00:08:33 my guest, Dr. Wylin Wilson.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:39 Dr. Wylin D. Wilson is Associate Professor of Theological Ethics at Duke Divinity
00:08:39 --> 00:08:43 School, where she teaches within the Theology, Medicine, and Culture Initiative.
00:08:44 --> 00:08:49 Her teaching and research are at the intersection of bioethics, gender, and theology.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:55 She is former teaching faculty at Harvard Medical School Center for Bioethics.
00:08:56 --> 00:09:00 She served as a senior fellow at the Harvard Divinity School Center for the
00:09:00 --> 00:09:06 Study of World Religions and visiting lecturer in Harvard Divinity School Women's
00:09:06 --> 00:09:08 Studies in Religion program.
00:09:08 --> 00:09:14 She is also former associate director of education for the Tuskegee University
00:09:14 --> 00:09:20 National Center for Bioethics and Research in Healthcare and a former faculty
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 member of Tuskegee University College of Agriculture,
00:09:23 --> 00:09:25 Environment and Nutrition Services.
00:09:25 --> 00:09:31 She is currently principal investigator for the bioethics in Black church addressing
00:09:31 --> 00:09:37 racial inequalities and Black women's health in North Carolina's research project,
00:09:37 --> 00:09:41 which examines the potential of the Black church as a resource in addressing
00:09:41 --> 00:09:45 the Black maternal health crisis in the U.S.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:47 Dr. Wilson earned her Ph.D.
00:09:47 --> 00:09:52 In Religion, Ethics, and Society from Emory University, her M.S.
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 In Agricultural Resource and Managerial Economics from Cornell University,
00:09:57 --> 00:10:02 and her Master of Divinity from the Interdenominational Theological Center.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 She is a member of the Society for the Study of Black Religion.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:11 The American Society for Bioethics and Humanities, the American Academy of Religion,
00:10:12 --> 00:10:16 and the Center for Reconciliation Advisory Board at Duke Divinity School.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:22 Dr. Wilson's publications include This is My Body, Faith Communities as Sites
00:10:22 --> 00:10:28 of Transfiguring Vulnerability, Bioenhancement, and the Vulnerable Body.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:34 A Theological Engagement, her first book, Economic Ethics in the Black Church,
00:10:34 --> 00:10:39 and her second book, Womanist Bioethics, Social Justice, Spirituality,
00:10:39 --> 00:10:41 and Black Women's Health.
00:10:41 --> 00:10:45 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 on this podcast, Dr. Wylin Wilson.
00:11:01 --> 00:11:05 All right. Dr. Wylin Wilson, how are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:11:05 --> 00:11:13 I am doing good. Thank you. Well, I am doing well also. I have to say this disclaimer
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 to my listeners, since this is an audio-only podcast, you are missing out on
00:11:17 --> 00:11:19 one of the greatest smiles of all time.
00:11:19 --> 00:11:24 So I'm feeling really, really relaxed and really good about this interview. Dr.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:29 Wilson, what I'd like to do to start the interviews off is I do a couple of
00:11:29 --> 00:11:31 what we call icebreakers.
00:11:32 --> 00:11:36 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:11:37 --> 00:11:43 And the quote is, attending is the discipline that trains the ego and opens
00:11:43 --> 00:11:49 the heart so that a humble, compassionate, and just regard for others can occur.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:51 What does that quote mean to you?
00:11:54 --> 00:12:03 It means everything, right? It actually makes me think of my grandmother and
00:12:03 --> 00:12:07 those sweet church ladies who loved me into being, right?
00:12:08 --> 00:12:14 That attending to folks, that compassion, that care,
00:12:14 --> 00:12:21 taking the time to always make sure that this person knows that they are loved,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:26 they are supported, and that you're in their corner. or you have their back,
00:12:26 --> 00:12:27 you know, when they need it.
00:12:27 --> 00:12:32 And so it just makes me think of just, it gives me all the warm feels inside, right?
00:12:33 --> 00:12:40 And it makes me actually think about what could be in terms of our healthcare system.
00:12:40 --> 00:12:46 I would hope that that's the kind of foundation that we could create where folks,
00:12:47 --> 00:12:49 whenever you step into a clinician's office,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 whenever you're in the midst of a provider, That that kind of love,
00:12:54 --> 00:12:59 that kind of regard for your well-being and for you would be there.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:02 So I think it also is a quote that holds out hope.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 Yeah. Okay. So the other part of the icebreaker is called 20 questions.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:13 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 I'll go safe. I'll say 3.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:23 All right. How should we balance rights, freedoms, and responsibilities?
00:13:25 --> 00:13:28 Oh, rights, freedom, and right. Okay.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:33 So I would say when I look at freedom, particularly.
00:13:34 --> 00:13:40 In conjunction with rights and responsibility, it makes me think of,
00:13:40 --> 00:13:44 you know, that question of what kind of freedom are we talking about?
00:13:44 --> 00:13:50 Freedom from something or freedom to, you know, to do something, right?
00:13:50 --> 00:13:57 Because I think that when we kind of put that in perspective of what are we
00:13:57 --> 00:14:00 talking about when we say freedom, freedom to,
00:14:00 --> 00:14:07 because the freedom to, to do something, to be in community,
00:14:07 --> 00:14:12 to share in the burdens and benefits of what it means to be in community,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:19 that automatically includes this kind of deep other regard for,
00:14:19 --> 00:14:24 and your responsibility to, the other person's rights, you know,
00:14:24 --> 00:14:27 their right to human flourishing,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:33 their right to thrive, their right to be in a community that really and truly
00:14:33 --> 00:14:38 cares about their health, cares about their well-being.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:46 So I think that the balance between those does hinge on, you know,
00:14:46 --> 00:14:50 the way that we look at freedom. Yeah.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:56 All right. So explain the concept of theologian as artist.
00:14:57 --> 00:15:00 Ah, yes. Oh, my goodness.
00:15:01 --> 00:15:05 I always think of my dad because I was raised by an artist, right?
00:15:06 --> 00:15:10 My father is truly, I love my dad so much.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:16 He just means everything to me. Um, and, and he, and he is funny enough.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:19 He, and I was born in the early seventies. So this is so funny.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:23 He is the first, the first like kind of real feminist that I,
00:15:23 --> 00:15:28 that I know of in the sense of he really, truly always from day one,
00:15:28 --> 00:15:32 he always was telling me, you know, you,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:36 you need to go as far as you can and do whatever you,
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 you know, whatever, you know, that you are called to do and don't let anything hold you back.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:45 Nothing can hold you back. The fact that you're a woman, the fact that you're
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 a Black woman, the fact that you, you know, your background included poverty,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:52 you know, nothing can hold you back.
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 And he always, you know, taught me just the most beautiful things about,
00:15:58 --> 00:16:02 you know, what it means to be a Black woman in conjunction with my mama,
00:16:02 --> 00:16:04 because that's a bad Black woman right there, right?
00:16:05 --> 00:16:10 And so I think of him because as an artist, He really raised me.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:15 To really have this beautiful appreciation of art.
00:16:15 --> 00:16:22 And so from him, I understood the significance of art in how it really and truly
00:16:22 --> 00:16:28 can one invite us into possibilities, right?
00:16:28 --> 00:16:34 Because to me, that's one of the most beautiful significance about art is that
00:16:34 --> 00:16:41 it truly invites us into worlds, possible worlds that could be.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:51 And it invites us to actually show up in those worlds, in our best selves, as our best selves.
00:16:51 --> 00:16:58 And so for me, theologian as artists, because artists are those who create these
00:16:58 --> 00:17:04 worlds for us, to actually be inside of.
00:17:05 --> 00:17:12 I think as a theologianist artists, what I hope that I do is that I help people
00:17:12 --> 00:17:15 to see, you know, I help the moral imagination.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:21 I help people to imagine worlds that could be for us, you know,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:28 these worlds where what we really do, we really do practice love on a daily basis, you know,
00:17:29 --> 00:17:34 where we really do care for each other, where it's beyond that kind of superficial
00:17:34 --> 00:17:39 madness that a lot of our institutions are built on.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:45 But where we create these worlds, I really hope that, excuse me,
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 I can be part of creating worlds that folks can live into.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:55 That's really, really beautiful. That's nice. Which kind of messes me up to
00:17:55 --> 00:18:00 ask you this question. In America, are we suffering from a moral deficit or
00:18:00 --> 00:18:03 a lack of commitment to ethics?
00:18:06 --> 00:18:13 I say both and. Excuse me, my finances are really not working with me today,
00:18:13 --> 00:18:17 but I definitely say both and.
00:18:17 --> 00:18:23 We really, I think there is a lack of political will, right,
00:18:23 --> 00:18:30 to really work for the thriving, the flourishing of all people.
00:18:30 --> 00:18:36 I do believe that that is absent among us, you know, as a society.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:39 And I don't know, I just really...
00:18:40 --> 00:18:46 I know that that lack of the will, the political will is there for many reasons, right?
00:18:46 --> 00:18:50 A lot of times, some people, we all have different responses to chaos because
00:18:50 --> 00:18:55 the way I see our current moment, there is just so much chaos.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:59 And every historical moment has its chaos, right?
00:19:00 --> 00:19:06 And so I know that some people, when they encounter chaos, their personality
00:19:06 --> 00:19:10 is such that they shut down and they go numb.
00:19:10 --> 00:19:13 Right. And it's kind of like a coping mechanism.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:21 And so it's the body. It is the body responding and really trying to kind of,
00:19:21 --> 00:19:24 you know, to hold itself, to comfort itself.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:31 Right. So so I get that. So I don't expect everybody to have the same response
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 in the midst of the historical chaos that we are living, right?
00:19:35 --> 00:19:47 But then there is that reality of ethics and of folks not really truly living
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 into what I consider a powerful love ethic.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:59 Like I'm telling you, every day, every day I try to meditate on love, right?
00:20:00 --> 00:20:04 Because there's so much fear swirling around.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:09 The fear and the hatred is swirling around. And that's a big part of the chaos
00:20:09 --> 00:20:10 that we are experiencing.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:16 And I know that if I do not every day make a conscious decision to meditate
00:20:16 --> 00:20:20 on love, on what it means, on how I can live it out, all of that.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 If I don't do that, I know I can get sucked in too, right? Like none of us are beyond the chaos.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:35 We are so evolved that we can, you know, just not have to worry about ever being sucked into the chaos.
00:20:35 --> 00:20:38 I am clear on my limitations.
00:20:38 --> 00:20:44 I am just absolutely clear on that. And so I think it is both and.
00:20:45 --> 00:20:51 But not as an indictment on, you know, the morality of people,
00:20:51 --> 00:20:57 but just it's because of the reality of the fact that we are just human and
00:20:57 --> 00:21:01 we have limitations and we need salvation.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 Like, you know, like the reality is, you know, because I always my grandmama
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 used to always say, baby, we need Jesus, you know.
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 And I'm like, yeah, grandmama was right.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:15 I'm telling you, oh, Lord. We think that is Christ's light, right?
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17 Like, because the word Christian has been soiled.
00:21:18 --> 00:21:24 But the love is central, and loving others dictates.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:26 That's it. Okay.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:31 That was powerful and very beautiful with that.
00:21:32 --> 00:21:38 There are some scholars that say the term Black church is a false one because
00:21:38 --> 00:21:43 it implies monolithic thought and identical makeup of congregations.
00:21:44 --> 00:21:49 I say the Black church is more about being a historical institution with traditions
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 and a sense of community and refuge.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:55 So between the two of us, you're the expert in this discussion.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:58 Define the Black church for listeners.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:07 Yes. Well, I consider the Black church, excuse me, I'm definitely in agreement
00:22:07 --> 00:22:10 with you in terms of it is an institution, right?
00:22:11 --> 00:22:18 And it's an institution that actually came about not because it wanted to.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:23 Black people did not want to segregate themselves, you know,
00:22:24 --> 00:22:27 in the church, in the church broadly, in the church broadly.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:33 And so it was something that was, one scholar, I love how one scholar puts it,
00:22:33 --> 00:22:36 it was something that was forced into existence, right?
00:22:37 --> 00:22:43 And so it's an unfortunate kind of existence, right?
00:22:43 --> 00:22:50 The Black church was created in response to Black folk being marginalized,
00:22:50 --> 00:22:57 being mistreated within the broader church in America.
00:22:58 --> 00:23:04 And so, yes, it is definitely an institution that, yeah, it's true.
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 It's definitely not a monolith. It's not at all. It's very diverse.
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 And to me, that's the beauty of the Black church. And that's what I love about
00:23:12 --> 00:23:15 the Black church. Like studying it, you know, I had, I mean,
00:23:15 --> 00:23:19 I really had a beautiful opportunity when I was in graduate school.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:27 I went around the different churches and I sat there and enjoyed the,
00:23:27 --> 00:23:32 the, the diverse, you know, kind of very staid worship.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:39 But, but yeah, for me, the Black church is an institution forced,
00:23:40 --> 00:23:41 that was forced into existence.
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 That has a powerful legacy of care.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:53 That, to me, is what is central about the Black church.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:56 It's that system, you know, locked out of the public health.
00:23:56 --> 00:24:03 So the Black church has this powerful legacy of caring for those who were locked
00:24:03 --> 00:24:08 out and marginalized because of racial discrimination in this nation.
00:24:09 --> 00:24:15 And so it does have a powerful love ethic that is grounded in care.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:18 And that's what I think is beautiful about the Black church.
00:24:19 --> 00:24:26 How can the Black church play a role in womanist ethics, which you define as
00:24:26 --> 00:24:30 a theoretical and social change framework that centers the history,
00:24:31 --> 00:24:37 everyday experiences, and spirituality of Black women as a way to approaching
00:24:37 --> 00:24:42 justice within health, science, medicine, religion, and the environment?
00:24:42 --> 00:24:47 Yes, thank you for asking that because, listen, so, you know,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:52 I got big love for the Black church, but, you know, big love also comes with
00:24:52 --> 00:24:56 big truth, right? You can't love somebody and not be truthful.
00:24:57 --> 00:25:04 Or you can, but it's not that deep, real love, right? So the truth of the Black
00:25:04 --> 00:25:09 church is that it also is a human institution, right?
00:25:10 --> 00:25:20 And so in that humanness of the institution, it has shortcomings, right?
00:25:20 --> 00:25:26 And so the Black church, it has done a lot.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:33 And it's been a lot of things for marginalized, oppressed people throughout history.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:41 But at the same time, it itself has a hand in the same kind of marginalization, right?
00:25:42 --> 00:25:52 So the Black church has also fallen short when it comes to including women in
00:25:52 --> 00:25:53 leadership, for instance.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:57 Now, there are some Black churches who, they got it locked. they doing it.
00:25:57 --> 00:25:58 They're letting sisters lead.
00:25:59 --> 00:26:03 They're letting sisters stand in the pulpit and preach and all of that, right?
00:26:03 --> 00:26:10 But because it is such a diverse institution, that is not the way it is all the way throughout.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:16 And it's still a struggle with theology in the Black church, right?
00:26:17 --> 00:26:24 Theology being that thing that dictates what people believe about our relationship
00:26:24 --> 00:26:27 to one another, as well as our relationship to God, right?
00:26:27 --> 00:26:33 And so there are some real shortfalls when it comes to theology,
00:26:33 --> 00:26:40 right, about women and their bodies and the significance thereof.
00:26:41 --> 00:26:47 And so, yeah, so the Black church, as beautiful as it is and can be,
00:26:47 --> 00:26:50 it definitely has some limitations and that's
00:26:50 --> 00:26:53 the power in womanist bioethics womanism
00:26:53 --> 00:27:01 really and truly does it looks at the black church and beautifully what it has
00:27:01 --> 00:27:06 done yes but then what it has left undone you know and it allows that it allows
00:27:06 --> 00:27:11 that critique that that loving critique yes yeah yeah,
00:27:11 --> 00:27:17 So I know that when I was growing up, I tell people I grew up Lutheran,
00:27:17 --> 00:27:23 but, but if, but what people at Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod, by the way,
00:27:23 --> 00:27:32 but what people don't really gather is that we were a black church through and through.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:40 It was like you know it was like you know we had people giving testimony we had a gospel choir.
00:27:41 --> 00:27:45 You know but but we were in that lutheran framework so it's like you know our
00:27:45 --> 00:27:51 church service it wouldn't be long but you know compared to traditional black
00:27:51 --> 00:27:57 churches i call them but you know if the pastor was feeling one we were going to be there for a minute,
00:27:58 --> 00:28:04 But, you know, it was Lutheran in the sense that women were not in leadership positions.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 There was no way we was going to have a female, not in the Missouri Senate,
00:28:09 --> 00:28:12 we were going to have a female pastor leading the congregation or,
00:28:13 --> 00:28:19 you know, we were going to address issues in the community. Right.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:25 It was, you know, our biggest thing when I was growing up was still about civil
00:28:25 --> 00:28:29 rights and and all that now.
00:28:30 --> 00:28:37 Coming back to the church from time to time, you know, I have seen that they
00:28:37 --> 00:28:42 have addressed issues that are more contemporary with what's going on.
00:28:42 --> 00:28:52 But but it's been a slow pull because, you know, the black church is rooted in the South.
00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 And so if you know anything about Chicago, Illinois, you know,
00:28:57 --> 00:29:01 that was the magnet from the south, especially from Mississippi.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:04 It was like a direct pipeline from Mississippi.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:11 So it was just it's it was really hard to get some of those southern traditions
00:29:11 --> 00:29:15 out of the way so that you could deal with modern stuff.
00:29:15 --> 00:29:21 Kind of you're from Alabama, right? Just kind of talk about are you know, you're from Florida.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:26 You're from Florida, but you did a lot of your graduate work and stuff in Alabama.
00:29:26 --> 00:29:28 So you know the South very well.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 Just kind of, you know, break it down to folks what I'm talking about when I
00:29:33 --> 00:29:39 say that Southern tradition as opposed to where we are in this modern world.
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 Yes. Yeah.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:48 The roots of the Black church are definitely deeply, deeply,
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 deeply in the deep South, right?
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 Because a lot of times, you know, back on slave plantations,
00:29:57 --> 00:30:02 the Black church literally grew from the, what we call the hush harbors, right?
00:30:03 --> 00:30:05 Because Black folks were not
00:30:05 --> 00:30:13 allowed to gather, what they would do is they would go to a hush harbor.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:18 Where they would sneak off and gather on the plantation or a little bit away
00:30:18 --> 00:30:25 from the plantation and have those services where they could worship God.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:30 And where they could worship God,
00:30:30 --> 00:30:34 that the God, not the God of the slave Bible, because, you know,
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36 there's a slave Bible, right?
00:30:36 --> 00:30:44 That is lacking so much of the scriptures about liberation, about freedom, about...
00:30:45 --> 00:30:52 And so they went away where they could worship a God that they knew was on the
00:30:52 --> 00:30:57 side of the oppressed and a God that they knew in spite of what the slave master said,
00:30:57 --> 00:31:02 It was a God that they knew who really did want their freedom.
00:31:03 --> 00:31:10 And so, yeah, so that is like that beautiful, beautiful seed of the Black church
00:31:10 --> 00:31:17 in those hush harbors, you know, during slavery, it really did flourish.
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20 And I think that is what empowered the
00:31:20 --> 00:31:27 Black people to not stand for that discrimination within the house of God.
00:31:27 --> 00:31:30 And that's why they say, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are going to worship
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 where our dignity will be respected,
00:31:33 --> 00:31:43 where we know that we can fully flourish as children of God and not live into
00:31:43 --> 00:31:48 this lie that we are not human and not worthy of God's love.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:59 So, yeah, so that you are so right. those deep Southern roots are so significant. And really, I think,
00:31:59 --> 00:32:08 sprouted something that now is beautiful. And yes, now churches are trying to
00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 step up to the plate, right?
00:32:10 --> 00:32:15 Churches are really trying to address the very real issues that marginalized
00:32:15 --> 00:32:18 folks are facing in the world today.
00:32:19 --> 00:32:24 And that's one of the things that, honestly, that's one of the more powerful
00:32:24 --> 00:32:29 things that's also keeping myself and a whole lot of other folks from giving
00:32:29 --> 00:32:30 up on the Black church, right?
00:32:31 --> 00:32:40 We realize, okay, yes, it is an institution very much in its humanness, run by humans,
00:32:40 --> 00:32:45 that really and truly has its limitations,
00:32:45 --> 00:32:53 but folks really are trying to heed the call of God to love,
00:32:53 --> 00:32:58 to really love and care for one another and to try to create,
00:32:59 --> 00:33:04 create that kind of environment where folks can flourish, truly,
00:33:04 --> 00:33:07 truly flourish. Yeah. Yeah.
00:33:08 --> 00:33:14 So piggybacking on that, historically, the Black church has been a catalyst
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 for economic development and political activism in America.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:26 Which role is most needed for Black America from the Black church in the 21st
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 century, in your opinion?
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 That is a great question. My goodness.
00:33:32 --> 00:33:36 Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I am tempted to say,
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 again, the both ends, right?
00:33:39 --> 00:33:42 Because I swear that's not a cop-out, I promise you.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:49 Because I'm the kind of person that, you know, I'm really holistic or try to
00:33:49 --> 00:33:51 be holistic in my thinking.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:59 And so, full disclosure, I started out as a social scientist, right?
00:33:59 --> 00:34:02 So I was trained in, you know, agricultural economics.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:07 And so when I came out of graduate school, I just knew.
00:34:07 --> 00:34:11 I was like, all right, we got to do economic development and we got to focus.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 The Black church has to absolutely focus on economic development.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:19 And that was the one thing I was just clear on, right?
00:34:19 --> 00:34:25 But then as I was in the heart of the black belt in Tuskegee,
00:34:25 --> 00:34:32 Alabama, doing my research, looking at the role of the church in economic development,
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 I realized, I was like, wait a minute.
00:34:35 --> 00:34:39 People are sick. People are suffering from chronic diseases.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 They are suffering, you know, from, you know, folks had diabetes,
00:34:45 --> 00:34:46 you know, folks had hypertension, folks.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:53 There are all kinds of, you know, chronic ailments that resulted in disabilities.
00:34:54 --> 00:35:01 So folks couldn't work. Right. And so the Black Belt, being in the Black Belt
00:35:01 --> 00:35:08 and seeing what a lack of access to health care actually means for rural populations.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:14 Wow. That really made me think beyond, you know, economic development.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:20 It's still super important. And I still hold out that we cannot thrive without
00:35:20 --> 00:35:24 that. But it helped me to really look at the fact that, you know,
00:35:24 --> 00:35:26 how are we doing economics?
00:35:28 --> 00:35:32 Because there are so many ways to do economics, as everybody knows, right?
00:35:32 --> 00:35:35 People know we have capitalism, socialism, you know, we have communism,
00:35:35 --> 00:35:41 we have all kind of ways of doing this thing called economics as societies,
00:35:42 --> 00:35:43 you know, as communities.
00:35:43 --> 00:35:47 But I really realized that, you
00:35:47 --> 00:35:53 know, we have to go beyond economics to really even an economy of care,
00:35:53 --> 00:36:00 right, where we really and truly first and foremost compensating those who are
00:36:00 --> 00:36:02 doing care work in our communities.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:06 Because there are a lot of, you know, grandmothers, a lot of mothers,
00:36:06 --> 00:36:12 and nowadays, even dads, people are doing care work in their homes for which
00:36:12 --> 00:36:15 we don't really value as a society.
00:36:16 --> 00:36:21 Therefore, you know, there's no real kind of important compensation for people
00:36:21 --> 00:36:25 doing that work and lack of a real support and all of that.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:32 So, yeah, so I think that we really do need to kind of rethink what we're doing
00:36:32 --> 00:36:35 in terms of our kind of economic systems.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:43 But we also need to expand beyond that because the political is not separate
00:36:43 --> 00:36:47 from anything that we do in life, right?
00:36:47 --> 00:36:51 Whether it's economic, whatever we do, it's not separate.
00:36:51 --> 00:36:55 So we really do need to, and I think nowadays,
00:36:55 --> 00:36:58 we need to train people, our young generation,
00:36:58 --> 00:37:06 we need to train them on policies and policy development and how our policies
00:37:06 --> 00:37:12 develop and what does it mean for you to have a voice about the kinds of policies
00:37:12 --> 00:37:15 that are going to affect your own community,
00:37:15 --> 00:37:18 where people work, live, play, all that.
00:37:18 --> 00:37:24 You know, we really and truly, I think we have to invest in our young people
00:37:24 --> 00:37:31 in that way so that they will understand these kinds of connections, right?
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 Because, yeah, because to me, that's that's that's the only way that things
00:37:36 --> 00:37:40 will really change is that we do both and and not kind of, you know,
00:37:40 --> 00:37:44 do one without regard for it for the other when it comes to the. Yeah.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 Yeah. So what you just said is one of those things in the black church where
00:37:49 --> 00:37:51 a pastor would say, amen, lights.
00:37:51 --> 00:37:54 Right. If he's not getting a response he wants or it's like,
00:37:54 --> 00:37:57 you know, say a little louder so the folks in the back can hear it.
00:37:57 --> 00:37:58 That was pretty profound.
00:37:59 --> 00:38:04 And then basically to break it down, when you say the word holistic,
00:38:04 --> 00:38:09 I like to I like to make the equation that we can walk and chew gum at the same time.
00:38:09 --> 00:38:15 I think that, you know, we can fulfill these roles to deal with economic development
00:38:15 --> 00:38:16 through the black church.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:20 We can deal with politics continuously through the black church.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:24 We can deal with health care and especially what you were focused on,
00:38:24 --> 00:38:28 you know, health care for black women through the black church.
00:38:29 --> 00:38:34 You know, a lot of people I'm old enough to remember burial associations. Right.
00:38:35 --> 00:38:42 And and my my my great aunt. It was like this guy would come and,
00:38:42 --> 00:38:46 you know, and she had this little book and she would pay him and then she would
00:38:46 --> 00:38:49 mark it down on the book that she paid him on such as.
00:38:49 --> 00:38:52 And then he would mark it in his book and then he'd go on to the next place.
00:38:52 --> 00:38:57 You know, that came out of the black church, you know, mutual aid, all that stuff.
00:38:58 --> 00:39:04 Yeah. So a lot of, you know, as down as people are about the church, especially.
00:39:05 --> 00:39:11 Younger people in this day and age, I think, you know, and just the way that
00:39:11 --> 00:39:14 politics has kind of corrupted religion,
00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 especially from a Christian standpoint, I think you can make an argument if,
00:39:18 --> 00:39:23 you know, if you're, if you're in Islam or if you're in Judaism,
00:39:23 --> 00:39:29 but, but definitely those of us that are Christian, politics has corrupted that.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:33 So people have a negative taste in their mouth, but, you know,
00:39:33 --> 00:39:39 the black, if it wasn't for the black church, I could do a whole other soapbox on that.
00:39:39 --> 00:39:43 So I'm going to contain myself because I need to go ahead and close this out.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:47 But, but there's a question I'm going to ask you that I've asked some other
00:39:47 --> 00:39:53 guests that are very, if they're not leaders in religion, they're very,
00:39:53 --> 00:39:58 very open with their faith and, and they're very political people.
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 And so I felt like I needed to ask him this question.
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04 And so I'm going to ask you the same one.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 When all is said and done, which concept will have suffered the most damage
00:40:10 --> 00:40:15 in America, democracy or organized religion?
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 Oh, man, that is a good question and a very hard question.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:27 Oh, my goodness. Because I'm looking at how both of them. Oh, my gosh.
00:40:27 --> 00:40:34 I mean, I honestly, I honestly look at the fact that because I was born in the early 70s.
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36 Right. And so.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:41 And I know that democracy is still young in this nation. You know,
00:40:41 --> 00:40:44 it's just a very it's a it's a young we're a young nation.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:50 One, two, democracy is a very young concept for us.
00:40:50 --> 00:40:57 It's a young experiment because let's let's be honest, it's truly from day one, it was an experiment.
00:40:57 --> 00:41:03 And I think that the experiment where we are in this experiment right now.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:13 Is we're in a place, we're just in a place of, I think, deep tragedy.
00:41:14 --> 00:41:19 We have gone off the rails in this experiment of democracy.
00:41:20 --> 00:41:24 And it's so disheartening to see where we are.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:33 Because I think a lot of times when we think about history, because I used to
00:41:33 --> 00:41:37 think of history on this straight line of progress, right?
00:41:37 --> 00:41:41 Kind of this linear kind of progression. but now
00:41:41 --> 00:41:45 I am absolutely clear that
00:41:45 --> 00:41:48 history is more of a you remember
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 slinkies you know kind of that it was a
00:41:51 --> 00:41:54 spiral right so history is more
00:41:54 --> 00:41:57 like a slinky I'm old I told y'all I was old school and so
00:41:57 --> 00:42:01 but you know that's like a coil right and
00:42:01 --> 00:42:04 it's kind of this spiral so on the coil you
00:42:04 --> 00:42:07 have your dips your low low lows but then it
00:42:07 --> 00:42:10 goes back up to the high high high
00:42:10 --> 00:42:15 point and it dips back down you know that's what a coil does and that's now
00:42:15 --> 00:42:22 how i see history right because we we have humanity has so many beautiful highs
00:42:22 --> 00:42:27 and god help us we have too many lows right um.
00:42:29 --> 00:42:35 To have all of the doggone sense that we have, right, to have all this knowledge,
00:42:35 --> 00:42:41 to have all of the quote unquote what we call technological progress and all this,
00:42:41 --> 00:42:45 it makes no sense to have the kind of lows that we have.
00:42:46 --> 00:42:51 And that is what is disheartening to me, particularly when it comes to this
00:42:51 --> 00:42:53 experiment called democracy.
00:42:54 --> 00:43:02 And definitely organized religion, yes, has taken a huge blow because we have
00:43:02 --> 00:43:09 truly cheapened the name of God.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:24 We have literally made faith something that is a tool A tool of so many awful things, right?
00:43:24 --> 00:43:30 A tool of hatred, a tool of fear All of these things that we have used,
00:43:31 --> 00:43:35 And now this democratic experiment, right,
00:43:35 --> 00:43:42 that has been the tool used in getting us to this place of tragedy and breaking
00:43:42 --> 00:43:47 down, you know, the breaking down of this democratic experiment.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:58 And so where I am not a pessimist, I call myself more of a realist and optimist, right?
00:44:00 --> 00:44:06 The optimist part comes not from some superficial kind of, I just want to think
00:44:06 --> 00:44:12 that everything's going to be okay, but it really does come from a sincere place of hope.
00:44:13 --> 00:44:22 Because one, I do believe that, you know, we are stronger than,
00:44:22 --> 00:44:26 because of the God that is in us, right?
00:44:26 --> 00:44:30 We are stronger than the tragedy that we face, right?
00:44:30 --> 00:44:36 And so my hope comes in that, and my hope comes in the ancestors.
00:44:36 --> 00:44:41 They have, I mean, just looking back at my ancestors, We wouldn't be here if
00:44:41 --> 00:44:46 folks who were enslaved did not pray for us and dream about us.
00:44:46 --> 00:44:50 And so I am so hopeful because I said, my God,
00:44:50 --> 00:44:57 I myself am here because of the folk that came before me,
00:44:57 --> 00:45:04 who truly, they knew, they had this deep sense of knowing that I would be here
00:45:04 --> 00:45:11 And that I myself would have enough faith and enough hope to put it all on the
00:45:11 --> 00:45:16 line for those folks who come in behind me, you know?
00:45:16 --> 00:45:26 And so I get excited about that in the face of the tragedy, in the face of our absolute limitations.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:29 Yeah. Yeah. So...
00:45:30 --> 00:45:35 You're basically saying that black people are the true testimony of the prayers
00:45:35 --> 00:45:38 of the righteous available for much. Right.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:44 Yeah. Yeah. And, and I love the way that the slinky is a really,
00:45:44 --> 00:45:49 really great analogy because the, the, yeah,
00:45:50 --> 00:45:52 we, you have the coils, but the, the appeal of
00:45:52 --> 00:45:56 the sink slinky is the physics of the slinky is
00:45:56 --> 00:45:59 that it is always when you
00:45:59 --> 00:46:02 put it down it starts moving forward it
00:46:02 --> 00:46:06 doesn't go backwards it moves say that and so
00:46:06 --> 00:46:09 and then the coils itself gives it
00:46:09 --> 00:46:12 strength right so i i
00:46:12 --> 00:46:16 love i love that i love that and now you're preaching now you're preaching now
00:46:16 --> 00:46:25 you got me over here doing the whole the whole the stories i could tell you
00:46:25 --> 00:46:30 about how people used to mistake my politics for Preaching is scary, but, uh,
00:46:31 --> 00:46:35 but look, and so I'm glad, and, you know, and, and it's all right to have this
00:46:35 --> 00:46:41 pragmatic optimism about things, you know, that you don't get too.
00:46:41 --> 00:46:47 I think when we're younger, it's altruism because it's like there's nothing
00:46:47 --> 00:46:50 that we look at and say, oh, we can't do.
00:46:50 --> 00:46:55 And then as we get older, we realize we do have limitations,
00:46:55 --> 00:47:00 but we still have hope that we can overcome those limitations at time.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:05 That's the reason why we like sports, I think, as human beings.
00:47:06 --> 00:47:13 Yeah. Because people, whether it's a daily basis like basketball or baseball
00:47:13 --> 00:47:15 or a weekly basis like football,
00:47:15 --> 00:47:22 you see those moments where somebody exceeds their limitations, right? Yes.
00:47:22 --> 00:47:26 And achieves something. And we're hoping that it's somebody from our team.
00:47:26 --> 00:47:28 That's right. Right?
00:47:29 --> 00:47:35 Yeah. Yeah, so I think that was really cool. So I think that's a cool way to end this.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:40 So outside of enrolling at Duke University to attend any of your classes,
00:47:40 --> 00:47:45 how can people reach out to you? How can they buy your books?
00:47:45 --> 00:47:51 This is the time where you go ahead and make your, I don't want to say pitch
00:47:51 --> 00:47:54 per se, but yeah, just tell people how they can reach out to you.
00:47:55 --> 00:48:01 Yeah, thank you. So they can find my book, Womanist Bioethics,
00:48:01 --> 00:48:06 Social Justice, Spirituality, and Black Women's Health on Amazon.com.
00:48:06 --> 00:48:14 They can also find it on LaurenNobel.com, but you can also connect WylinDWilson.com as well.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:18 And I am on Instagram and LinkedIn. I forgot.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:24 Dr. Wilson, I greatly enjoyed this conversation.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:30 And one of my rules is that, you know, once you've been on, you have an open
00:48:30 --> 00:48:31 invitation to come back.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:36 So that means that if there's something that you feel you need to talk about,
00:48:36 --> 00:48:39 you can reach out to me and we'll get you on.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:42 But i i really enjoyed talking
00:48:42 --> 00:48:45 with you and i wish you much
00:48:45 --> 00:48:49 success on the book and much continued success and you
00:48:49 --> 00:48:55 shaping young minds and guiding people toward that hope that we both believe
00:48:55 --> 00:49:02 is out there thank you so much this has been absolute it's just absolute joy
00:49:02 --> 00:49:07 for me so i appreciate you having me thank you all right guys and we're going to.
00:49:27 --> 00:49:34 All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Dr. Terry Givens.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:40 Dr. Terri Givens is a professor of political science at the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:46 She was the provost advisor on the strategy to address anti-black racism at
00:49:46 --> 00:49:52 McGill University from 2021 to 2024, where she supported the provost office,
00:49:53 --> 00:49:59 office's work to increase the hiring of and support for Black faculty, staff, and students.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:05 She is formerly the CEO of the Center for Higher Education Leadership and has
00:50:05 --> 00:50:09 worked with a variety of colleges, universities, and ed tech companies on issues
00:50:09 --> 00:50:12 related to innovation and excellence in higher education.
00:50:13 --> 00:50:17 As the author of the book, Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging Racial
00:50:17 --> 00:50:24 Divides, she is a sought-after consultant and speaker on issues related to leadership and inclusion.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:28 She has more than 30 years of experience in higher education,
00:50:28 --> 00:50:31 politics, international affairs, and nonprofits.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:37 She is an accomplished speaker and uses her platform to develop leaders with
00:50:37 --> 00:50:41 an understanding of the importance of diversity and inclusion while encouraging
00:50:41 --> 00:50:43 personal growth through empathy.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:49 Dr. Terri has held leadership positions as vice provost at the University of
00:50:49 --> 00:50:55 Texas at Austin and provost at Menlo College, as well as professorships at the
00:50:55 --> 00:50:58 University of Texas at Austin and the University of Washington.
00:50:58 --> 00:51:03 She was the founding director at the Center for European Studies at the University
00:51:03 --> 00:51:07 of Texas and led the university's efforts in Mexico and Latin America as vice
00:51:07 --> 00:51:12 provost for international activities, as well as curriculum development.
00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 She has worked with a variety of organizations at the international level,
00:51:16 --> 00:51:21 including the German Marshall Fund, attending the annual Brussels Forum, U.S.
00:51:22 --> 00:51:26 State Department, Transatlantic Inclusion Leaders, and the Helsinki Commission.
00:51:27 --> 00:51:31 Terry is the author, editor of books and articles on immigration policy,
00:51:32 --> 00:51:34 European politics, and right-wing politics.
00:51:34 --> 00:51:40 Her most recent books, again, Radical Empathy, Finding a Path to Bridging Racial
00:51:40 --> 00:51:46 Divides, and The Roots of Racism, The Politics of White Supremacy in the U.S.
00:51:46 --> 00:51:50 And Europe, were both published by, well, no, I take that back,
00:51:51 --> 00:51:56 were published by Policy Press and Bristol University Press, respectively.
00:51:56 --> 00:52:02 Her book, Reckoning, Creating Positive Change Through Radical Empathy, is forthcoming.
00:52:02 --> 00:52:06 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:52:06 --> 00:52:09 on this podcast, Dr. Terri Givens.
00:52:21 --> 00:52:25 All right. Dr. Terri Givens. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:52:26 --> 00:52:31 I'm doing much better because we've had some wins in the last week.
00:52:31 --> 00:52:35 But yeah, as a clinical scientist, yes, it's been a good week.
00:52:36 --> 00:52:41 Okay. All right. And I'm going to pick your brain about that in a minute.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:45 But what I normally do is that I start off with some icebreakers.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:52 And the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to And the quote is
00:52:52 --> 00:52:58 Addressing bias is not just a personal choice It is a social agenda,
00:52:58 --> 00:53:02 a moral stance What does that quote mean to you?
00:53:02 --> 00:53:11 I get chills when I hear that quote because it's just so integral to how I feel
00:53:11 --> 00:53:15 about things like dealing with societal issues.
00:53:15 --> 00:53:20 Bias is inherent in so many aspects of our society.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:24 And to me, it's really critical. That's why I wrote my book,
00:53:24 --> 00:53:29 basically, is because so often we don't recognize our bias.
00:53:29 --> 00:53:38 And so to me, that is at the core of what motivated my book, Radical Empathy.
00:53:38 --> 00:53:42 Yeah. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.
00:53:43 --> 00:53:47 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:53:48 --> 00:53:56 13. Okay. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why? No.
00:53:57 --> 00:54:03 Media is designed to be biased. And I know that from my own research and from
00:54:03 --> 00:54:06 the research of many of my colleagues in political science.
00:54:06 --> 00:54:11 And historically, you know, the media has been owned by wealthy people.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:18 And it is often, as we see today, used as propaganda.
00:54:18 --> 00:54:22 So, no, I don't think there's any media because we all have bias,
00:54:23 --> 00:54:24 but that's a whole, you know, that's a separate thing.
00:54:25 --> 00:54:33 I think media, even those like NPR that try to be unbiased still have a bias in many ways. Yeah.
00:54:34 --> 00:54:40 And like you said, we can go off on a whole tangent about, about bias in the
00:54:40 --> 00:54:42 media and even why that is.
00:54:42 --> 00:54:45 But like you said, we won't, we won't go down that rabbit hole.
00:54:47 --> 00:54:50 So you started off by saying that you were pleased.
00:54:50 --> 00:54:55 How did you view the recent protests and the election results?
00:54:56 --> 00:55:02 It's been really interesting to see that basically a lot of African-Americans
00:55:02 --> 00:55:07 aren't protesting out there because we know we always put our bodies on the line.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:13 Right. And this is one time when it's really important that our allies and basically
00:55:13 --> 00:55:20 white people are out there because this is their battle, even in as much as it is ours.
00:55:20 --> 00:55:25 So the election results, I think, are a reflection of the activism that has
00:55:25 --> 00:55:31 been going on because we're seeing voter turnouts higher than is usual for a midterm election.
00:55:31 --> 00:55:34 And I also think that it's really fascinating.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:39 We're just getting the results in in terms of the breakdowns.
00:55:39 --> 00:55:44 But as I said, African-Americans haven't been on the front lines of the protests,
00:55:44 --> 00:55:46 but they're voting. Right.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:52 And much higher percentages than you might expect at this point in the presidential term.
00:55:52 --> 00:55:59 So I'm very encouraged by the fact that black people are showing up where it
00:55:59 --> 00:56:05 matters, which is at the ballot box and actually changing the outcomes of some elections.
00:56:05 --> 00:56:08 Because I believe it was Spanberger's election.
00:56:08 --> 00:56:13 She didn't get a majority of the white vote, but she got a majority of the Hispanic and black.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:18 And, you know, I put minority in quotes because we aren't really the minority,
00:56:18 --> 00:56:21 but she got the most of that vote.
00:56:21 --> 00:56:28 And so it is clear that we still have an important role to play in these electoral outcomes.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:35 Yeah. So were you most surprised with Mikie Sherrill's,
00:56:36 --> 00:56:41 victory or the amount of a cushion that she had?
00:56:41 --> 00:56:48 Or were you surprised, more surprised about the turnout in California for just a proposition?
00:56:48 --> 00:56:51 Which one kind of, as a political science, kind of intrigued you to mind?
00:56:52 --> 00:56:58 Gosh, that's hard to say. I think I would say the turnout in California,
00:56:58 --> 00:57:05 because I feel like California has been, you know,
00:57:06 --> 00:57:09 really rejuvenated in many ways, because we've had, you know,
00:57:10 --> 00:57:12 Democrats in power for a long time.
00:57:12 --> 00:57:16 And so that tends to tampen down the vote.
00:57:16 --> 00:57:21 And this was something that it wasn't clear how people would respond initially.
00:57:21 --> 00:57:26 But as you saw the momentum building, and basically the GOP gave up in the last
00:57:26 --> 00:57:30 couple weeks, even trying to counter it because they saw that this was going to be a tidal wave.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:35 So when they first announced it, I was a little worried.
00:57:35 --> 00:57:39 But as it went along week by week and Governor Newsom has been out there on
00:57:39 --> 00:57:45 the front lines pushing it and mocking Trump and all of that,
00:57:45 --> 00:57:50 I'm really glad to see people were so engaged and voted.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:53 And of course, we have mail-in ballots. I vote in California.
00:57:54 --> 00:58:00 And so I mailed in my ballot and it makes it so easy, which is why the Republicans
00:58:00 --> 00:58:01 want to get rid of mail-in voting.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:09 Yeah. I, you know, I wasn't really too shocked about the turnout in California
00:58:09 --> 00:58:15 because of the, the money that was spent even before the Republicans retreated.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:18 I mean, they put Arnold Schwarzenegger out there and rightfully so,
00:58:18 --> 00:58:21 because he was the governor that pushed for the commissions.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:25 Right. So that would be the natural person.
00:58:25 --> 00:58:28 I would want the spokesman to say no against it. Right. But,
00:58:28 --> 00:58:33 you know, the money that they spent and it was just just that laser focus,
00:58:34 --> 00:58:39 I just kind of felt that people were going to show up and vote for the proposition.
00:58:40 --> 00:58:44 Now, Mikie Sherrill in New Jersey, you know, all the, and I don't,
00:58:44 --> 00:58:46 I don't really have tentacles in New Jersey.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:51 I got a couple of friends, but they were not real thrilled about the way she
00:58:51 --> 00:58:55 was running her campaign. They were like hoping, can we get Roz Baraka back
00:58:55 --> 00:58:57 on the ballot? Can we make this happen? Right.
00:58:58 --> 00:59:03 But, you know, but then she beat the brakes off of him And I guess I shouldn't
00:59:03 --> 00:59:07 have been that surprised because Citarelli has run. This is his third time.
00:59:08 --> 00:59:12 And there's always that diminishing returns every time you run for the same
00:59:12 --> 00:59:15 position over and over that people kind of get.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:20 Yeah, you're a perennial candidate. You're not really serious and all that.
00:59:20 --> 00:59:25 So I think maybe that played in more so why she had such a big gap than,
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 you know, a lot of anticipated.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:32 I wouldn't discount, though, the fact that New Jersey is right next to New York
00:59:32 --> 00:59:37 and that people were more energized on the Democratic side because of what they
00:59:37 --> 00:59:39 saw happening in New York City.
00:59:40 --> 00:59:46 So I think that that did place a bit of a role in the level of enthusiasm for
00:59:46 --> 00:59:50 a Democratic candidate, maybe not necessarily that specific candidate.
00:59:50 --> 00:59:57 But I think that's what you're seeing across the country is that turnout amongst Democrats.
00:59:57 --> 01:00:01 And I don't have any data for this yet, but I suspect we will soon,
01:00:01 --> 01:00:07 that there was an energizing effect because of the protests,
01:00:07 --> 01:00:13 because of Mamdani, because of the pushback that Governor Newsom and other governors,
01:00:13 --> 01:00:15 you know, Pritzker, et cetera,
01:00:15 --> 01:00:20 are actually getting people mobilized in a way that might not have happened
01:00:20 --> 01:00:23 if, you know, we just had politics as usual.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:26 Yeah. And I'm going to tie in
01:00:26 --> 01:00:32 Mamdani later as we get into this conversation about radical empathy,
01:00:32 --> 01:00:39 because I've seen some things that I think relate to what you're trying to do with that.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:44 But I do want to ask this one question to you. Is there anything wrong with black people?
01:00:48 --> 01:00:50 I know not as a I would say
01:00:50 --> 01:00:54 no as a generic group are there
01:00:54 --> 01:00:57 problems within our community absolutely
01:00:57 --> 01:01:04 and I wouldn't phrase it that way it's not that it's wrong it's that there are
01:01:04 --> 01:01:12 pathologies that have occurred not necessarily of our accord but you know I
01:01:12 --> 01:01:15 think about things like you know health in general.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:21 And then, you know, you can look at mental health. And I guess I would turn
01:01:21 --> 01:01:26 the question around and say, are there problems in the Black community?
01:01:26 --> 01:01:36 100%. Because of the long-lasting impact of, you know, how we've been treated in this country.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:42 You know, what's really interesting is, and I've come across this stuff as I've
01:01:42 --> 01:01:47 been doing research, if somebody is born and raised in Africa.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:55 And then you take them to the U.S., immediately their health adjusts to that of African-Americans.
01:01:55 --> 01:02:00 They're healthier in their home country in Africa, and then they come to the
01:02:00 --> 01:02:04 U.S., and then they develop all the health issues that African-Americans do.
01:02:04 --> 01:02:13 And so I think that a lot of our problems arise from living in a country that
01:02:13 --> 01:02:18 does not respect or treat us in the ways that we should be treated.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:26 Yeah. And so the follow up to that was, why do we think that there is something wrong with us?
01:02:26 --> 01:02:30 And you were kind of going down that path when you started talking about pathologies
01:02:30 --> 01:02:32 and history and all that.
01:02:32 --> 01:02:38 So, you know, Malcolm X, I'm paraphrasing, but Malcolm X and Carter G.
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 Woodson and other scholars have basically said, you know, we're being taught
01:02:42 --> 01:02:47 certain things, then our self-esteem is going to be damaged by that.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:50 So just kind of expound on that a little bit.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:56 Yeah. So it's really interesting because I'm teaching a class right now on race and immigration.
01:02:56 --> 01:03:01 And a lot of times people say, well, why can't black people be like,
01:03:01 --> 01:03:05 you know, group X, you know, like Chinese or Japanese immigrants.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:09 And the funny thing is, is these people come to the U.S. And,
01:03:09 --> 01:03:11 you know, I talk about this in my class.
01:03:12 --> 01:03:15 They come and then they are taught that black people are at the bottom,
01:03:16 --> 01:03:20 you know, and that there are these all these racial hierarchies and that they
01:03:20 --> 01:03:24 don't want to be like black people. You know, that is the comparison group.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:34 Right. And so these people come and they adopt the same ideals of white supremacy.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:39 Basically beating up and putting down Black people because they want to be seen as different.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:45 And no, that's not 100% across the board. Obviously, I'm generalizing.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:54 But there is this ongoing problem that we have all of these policies that are
01:03:54 --> 01:03:59 designed to negatively impact Black communities and Black people individually.
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 And unfortunately, they're being exacerbated now because we're losing all the
01:04:02 --> 01:04:06 protections that help people like me get to where I am.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:13 And so it's just creating a feedback loop of every time we get a new wave of
01:04:13 --> 01:04:20 immigrants, you can go all the way back to the Irish and then Italians and so on.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:25 They graduate to white eventually, even though they started out as being in
01:04:25 --> 01:04:27 the same category as blacks.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:38 So yeah, that's part of the issue. And we have to do a better job of supporting each other, of,
01:04:39 --> 01:04:46 You know, mutual aid. That's been my mantra since Trump got reelected is mutual aid is really critical.
01:04:46 --> 01:04:54 And, you know, supporting each other in ways that allows us to create our own, you know,
01:04:55 --> 01:04:59 entrepreneurship, you know, ways that we can kind of get out of the system and
01:04:59 --> 01:05:02 and still, you know, benefit from
01:05:02 --> 01:05:04 the capitalist system because we're not going to lose that for a while.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:12 Yeah when a white person says i don't see color how do you respond to that i laugh.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:21 Yeah and it's so funny because we've been having that discussion in my class
01:05:21 --> 01:05:25 as well you know that whole idea that you don't see color it's like i'm sorry
01:05:25 --> 01:05:31 you know actually when you don't see color, you're denying a part of me, right?
01:05:31 --> 01:05:33 Because I love my color.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:36 My color is integral to who I am, right?
01:05:37 --> 01:05:45 And so I would rather somebody say, you know, I just love you for who you are, right?
01:05:45 --> 01:05:49 Or, you know, I see you as a person,
01:05:49 --> 01:05:53 but don't tell me you don't see color because color is
01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 everywhere and it's not
01:05:57 --> 01:06:02 just black and white and we have to remember that so much of our society is
01:06:02 --> 01:06:07 built on you know defining people in certain ways and you know it's interesting
01:06:07 --> 01:06:14 as I often make the point that part of the reason we hold on to you know our,
01:06:15 --> 01:06:18 saying we are Black, is because it gives us political power.
01:06:18 --> 01:06:22 Like I just said earlier, you know, we can go to those polls and say,
01:06:22 --> 01:06:23 how did Black people vote?
01:06:23 --> 01:06:28 Black people voted more for this particular candidate than white people.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:32 So we know that that shows our political power and influence.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:35 And when we do, you know, this is why when we do redistricting,
01:06:35 --> 01:06:40 we focus on, you know, communities that have, you know, large numbers of Black
01:06:40 --> 01:06:45 people so they can get some representation. And we know that there are issues that are specific to us.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:49 Right. And there are health issues that are specific to us.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:54 And, you know, there's so many things that, you know, we want to maintain our culture.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:58 We want, you know, I love the learning more and more about, you know,
01:06:58 --> 01:07:02 how my family in Louisiana lived and, you know, the great migrant,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:03 you know, all these things.
01:07:03 --> 01:07:08 The history is so critical to our understanding of who we are,
01:07:08 --> 01:07:16 not just as black people, but as a country. You know, define the concept of race, radical empathy.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:22 So radical empathy, it's a six step process because I came up with this term
01:07:22 --> 01:07:26 because I was, you know, at that moment, you know, really this started way back
01:07:26 --> 01:07:31 in the 2000s when it felt like we were lacking in leadership.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:37 And it's like, well, who's the person who's going to really take on the next
01:07:37 --> 01:07:43 round of protests and fighting for our rights? And then I had that man in the mirror moment.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:47 And I'm like, oh, you know, we are who we are waiting. You know,
01:07:47 --> 01:07:50 you're looking at the people you're waiting for. It's our generation.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:54 And, you know, I've always been active in politics, you know,
01:07:54 --> 01:07:59 since I was old enough to, you know, go door to door with my sisters. I'm like five years old.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:05 And so radical empathy, you know, I'm a very empathetic person.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:10 But I was like, well, empathy doesn't get me anywhere if I don't take action.
01:08:11 --> 01:08:14 But then I also wanted to take a step back and get people to look internally
01:08:14 --> 01:08:17 to understand what is keeping you from taking action.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:22 And so the first step for me was understanding, you know, basically myself.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:27 And to do that, I had to be vulnerable. So the first step is being vulnerable
01:08:27 --> 01:08:30 and saying, okay, let me look at my family history.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:33 Let me understand, you know, what are some ways I have bias?
01:08:33 --> 01:08:39 And then the second step is being open to being open to being grounded in who you are.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:42 So I call my 20s my years of cognitive dissonance.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:47 And I feel like I finally got a better sense of who I am like in my early late
01:08:47 --> 01:08:51 20s, early 30s and just said, you know, you just got to be who you are.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:55 And then the third step is being open to the experiences of others.
01:08:56 --> 01:09:02 Because I really feel like if you, and it's also that issue of if you love yourself,
01:09:02 --> 01:09:03 it's a lot easier to love other people.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:07 And then the next step is you have to practice empathy because it doesn't come
01:09:07 --> 01:09:08 naturally necessarily.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:14 And I still have to practice empathy all the time. But what makes it radical is the taking action.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:19 And then the next step is building trust and creating change.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:24 Because practicing empathy is one thing, but taking action is a whole other thing.
01:09:25 --> 01:09:31 And I really learned throughout my years as a leader that building trust is
01:09:31 --> 01:09:35 such an important component of being a leader, but also just,
01:09:35 --> 01:09:38 you know, having respect for communities.
01:09:39 --> 01:09:45 Is there a political leader that you see that practices radical empathy? Yeah.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:49 Boy, you know, I have to think about that a little bit because,
01:09:49 --> 01:09:54 you know, politicians, their motivations are often, you know,
01:09:54 --> 01:09:56 different than what we would want.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:00 They are often in it for power and, you know, being able to make money.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:07 But, you know, there are some out there. I think somebody like Pete Buttigieg
01:10:07 --> 01:10:12 I think is somebody I see but there are even,
01:10:13 --> 01:10:21 somebody like Jasmine Crockett even though she's very outspoken but I feel like
01:10:21 --> 01:10:23 I just get a sense from her that she has a lot of empathy.
01:10:23 --> 01:10:27 I feel like she has a lot of empathy for our community and she's fighting for our community right?
01:10:27 --> 01:10:31 So sometimes empathy isn't necessarily like oh I care about you.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:34 Sometimes empathy is being in the game.
01:10:34 --> 01:10:40 And I think if you're feeling the pain of our community, then you're out there fighting right now.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:46 So, yeah. So I see people like Jasmine Crockett, you know, I was going to say
01:10:46 --> 01:10:50 Cory Booker, but, you know, sometimes I wonder about his motives,
01:10:50 --> 01:10:53 but he does try to be empathetic.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:58 You know, I was thinking Jasmine's good.
01:10:58 --> 01:11:02 I think, you know, I was thinking like, you know like AOC,
01:11:03 --> 01:11:11 because when I was reading your book and because the key thing is not just understanding
01:11:11 --> 01:11:15 ourselves and our people right I think Jasmine Crockett,
01:11:16 --> 01:11:21 And, and, you know, it was Jamal Bowman, Cori Bush,
01:11:21 --> 01:11:28 those folks, I think they, they have a genuine love for us, but in an American
01:11:28 --> 01:11:32 society where we're trying to get leaders to get the whole country in a different direction,
01:11:33 --> 01:11:36 I don't know if they really love them other folks. You know what I mean?
01:11:37 --> 01:11:47 I think they align with people, but I just don't, you know, and that— It depends, yeah.
01:11:48 --> 01:11:50 Yeah, and that— Go ahead, sorry.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:54 No, I was just going to say that leads to where I was going with Mamdani,
01:11:54 --> 01:11:55 but go ahead and finish your thought.
01:11:55 --> 01:11:59 What are you going to say? Oh, I was just going to say, I think that AOC is
01:11:59 --> 01:12:04 a really great example, because she does have more of a national,
01:12:04 --> 01:12:08 you know, kind of cross-cutting, bridging divides kind of approach.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:13 And yeah, I would say that, you know, some of the others, Cori Bush,
01:12:14 --> 01:12:18 you know, there's, you know,
01:12:18 --> 01:12:24 there is, I think, empathy, because I think their empathy does extend beyond
01:12:24 --> 01:12:25 the Black community in the sense
01:12:25 --> 01:12:30 that they What they are doing is fighting for the real working class,
01:12:31 --> 01:12:33 I would say, because you're not going to hear me say Bernie,
01:12:33 --> 01:12:38 because I feel like Bernie Sanders doesn't see us as the working class.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:44 I feel like Bernie always has white in parentheses in front of working class.
01:12:44 --> 01:12:48 But what I see somebody like Jasmine Crockett out there fighting for the working
01:12:48 --> 01:12:50 class, it's not just the black working class, right?
01:12:51 --> 01:12:55 What she's fighting for is, and that's I think what a lot of black politicians
01:12:55 --> 01:12:59 are trying to say. When we do well by us, we do well by everybody.
01:13:00 --> 01:13:05 Yeah, that's true. And I was going to, that kind of ties into how I want to close it out.
01:13:05 --> 01:13:11 But I want to get back to Mom Donnie because now he just got elected.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:15 So he hasn't gotten to the hard part yet of actually governing.
01:13:15 --> 01:13:16 The easy part is getting elected.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:25 So, but the way that he has conveyed himself is that he has conveyed himself
01:13:25 --> 01:13:27 as an empathetic candidate.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:32 Whether you agree with the policies or whether you think he's going to succeed
01:13:32 --> 01:13:41 in achieving what he wants to do, the lesson with his campaign was, I feel your pain.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:45 And if you give me a chance, I'm going to do something about it. Right.
01:13:46 --> 01:13:51 But but my question is, outside of what you've seen with him,
01:13:51 --> 01:13:59 do you do you feel that it's conceivable to have radical empathy,
01:13:59 --> 01:14:03 especially in the political environment that we're in now?
01:14:03 --> 01:14:06 Because I'm looking at people I went to school with.
01:14:06 --> 01:14:13 I'm looking at people that, you know, I grew up with and people that I've even voted for.
01:14:13 --> 01:14:17 And I'm looking at some of the responses that they've had from Mamdani getting
01:14:17 --> 01:14:23 elected. And I'm like, who, what, where is this coming from?
01:14:23 --> 01:14:28 I literally had somebody that I voted for, a white woman, put up a graphic and
01:14:28 --> 01:14:33 said that New York forgot, right? after 9-11.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:35 They forgot because they voted for him.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:41 And he's not even Arab. Right. But I'm just saying, you know,
01:14:42 --> 01:14:46 that's why when you put the challenge to Americans to say, okay,
01:14:46 --> 01:14:50 we need to start practicing this radical empathy.
01:14:50 --> 01:14:58 We need to start looking at and feeling, you know, each other's pain and,
01:14:58 --> 01:15:02 and, and, and embracing each other's joys and cultures and all that.
01:15:03 --> 01:15:09 With the, with the dynamics in politics now, is that really conceivable or will we just have,
01:15:09 --> 01:15:16 moments is what i'm asking well that that brings me to my book that just came out called reckoning,
01:15:17 --> 01:15:20 and that book kind of tries to address
01:15:20 --> 01:15:25 that question because i get this question all the time right how do we and i
01:15:25 --> 01:15:30 first of all the thing that one of the first things i i figured out after i
01:15:30 --> 01:15:35 put out radical empathy is that you you have to put forward the idea that empathy
01:15:35 --> 01:15:37 is not absolution, right?
01:15:38 --> 01:15:44 So let's take the example of this woman who posted this 9-11 picture about Mamdani.
01:15:44 --> 01:15:50 And my first step would be to say, okay, what caused her to do that?
01:15:50 --> 01:15:52 Why this was clearly coming out of fear.
01:15:53 --> 01:15:59 And how do, so I can understand that she's coming at this out of fear.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:02 And a lot of what's happening in politics today is fear driven.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:08 And so, but that doesn't mean I'm going to forgive her for doing that, right?
01:16:09 --> 01:16:16 So, empathy, you know, so instead, what I would do is try to educate this person, right?
01:16:16 --> 01:16:21 Send them, you know, send them the interview that Mamdani did,
01:16:21 --> 01:16:26 you know, with, you know, this week or, you know, encourage her to listen to
01:16:26 --> 01:16:30 his acceptance speech, encourage her to give him a chance, right?
01:16:30 --> 01:16:34 People are jumping, and I have had the same experience. I see people,
01:16:34 --> 01:16:39 you know, saying terrible things and they just are out of fear. And...
01:16:40 --> 01:16:46 So I guess how radical empathy helps me is I don't necessarily jump to the,
01:16:46 --> 01:16:51 even though I say empathy is not absolution, I also don't necessarily jump to
01:16:51 --> 01:16:54 the conclusion that, oh, this person is awful and evil because they did this, right?
01:16:55 --> 01:16:59 I have to see them as a whole human being. And I think that's a big part of
01:16:59 --> 01:17:01 the problem is we don't see each other as whole human beings.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:06 We divide ourselves up into these little pieces of, oh, well,
01:17:07 --> 01:17:12 you know, you're saying that, you know, there's a genocide and I can't say that.
01:17:12 --> 01:17:15 So therefore, we're going to we can't, you know, I can't talk to you anymore.
01:17:15 --> 01:17:20 It's like, wait a second. You know, we have to see the whole person.
01:17:20 --> 01:17:23 And yes, I have to say that there have been times, you know,
01:17:24 --> 01:17:30 I'm blocking people on social media because I don't agree. So it's not good
01:17:30 --> 01:17:34 to be in toxic situations. If somebody's toxic, you've got to extricate yourself from that.
01:17:34 --> 01:17:41 I think what's more important is that we understand that it is possible to have empathy.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:48 I really focus on self-empathy as well as empathy for others so that you don't
01:17:48 --> 01:17:52 get into this situation where you don't want people to roll over you.
01:17:53 --> 01:17:58 And that's why I was giving those examples previously. We want people who are fighters, right?
01:17:58 --> 01:18:04 We want people who are out there in the trenches and telling the truth and being
01:18:04 --> 01:18:08 honest about, you know, look, we haven't given this poor guy a chance.
01:18:09 --> 01:18:13 You know, he was nine years old or however old he was when that happened.
01:18:14 --> 01:18:17 He's not even Arab. There's no connection here.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:22 And so I think that's a situation where you want to point out to that person
01:18:22 --> 01:18:27 where they've gone wrong and say, look, I care about you as a person and I supported
01:18:27 --> 01:18:30 you, but I disagree with this.
01:18:30 --> 01:18:33 And I think that's part of it is we have to have the courage to do it.
01:18:34 --> 01:18:37 To step up and say, no, I don't think what you did is right.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:44 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I, I get into fights a lot, doc.
01:18:44 --> 01:18:51 I, uh, you know, and I, I'm, I'm trying at my older age to, because when I was elected,
01:18:52 --> 01:18:57 you know, I was in my thirties when I was really, really an activist and heavy
01:18:57 --> 01:19:00 in it, I was in my twenties and, you know, So I just,
01:19:01 --> 01:19:05 I was coming at you and, and, you know, as I've gotten older,
01:19:05 --> 01:19:13 I'm trying to be more of the elder and I'm trying to say what I need to say to him.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:17 When I was 20 or 30, I would have cut you out. Now I'm trying not to cut you
01:19:17 --> 01:19:20 out, but I'm trying to convey that message.
01:19:20 --> 01:19:25 Right. So that's part of the challenge, I think, is that when we're trying to
01:19:25 --> 01:19:28 be empathetic and understand why a person's coming that way,
01:19:28 --> 01:19:34 even if it offends you, the challenge is, how do you step to that person?
01:19:34 --> 01:19:40 How do you confront them? And that's, so I appreciate you saying that.
01:19:40 --> 01:19:44 And I have one more thing to add to that, which is ask questions.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:49 You know, what if you went to her and said, you know, here's some facts about
01:19:49 --> 01:19:53 Mom Donnie. why did you post that? Explain to me, you know?
01:19:54 --> 01:19:57 And that's asking questions is really important.
01:19:58 --> 01:20:03 Yeah. All right. So why is structural racism not inevitable?
01:20:04 --> 01:20:09 Oh, it's not inevitable because it's something that is, you know,
01:20:09 --> 01:20:14 I should say it's perpetuated because of history, right?
01:20:14 --> 01:20:16 I mean, you have to go back to,
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 the way the country was founded, etc. But it's not necessarily,
01:20:22 --> 01:20:27 well, first of all, it's not necessarily, it harms us as a country,
01:20:27 --> 01:20:31 as an economy, all these different, you know, we are not getting people's best
01:20:31 --> 01:20:34 potential with structural racism.
01:20:34 --> 01:20:39 And so, you know, enlightened leaders would see that structural racism is something
01:20:39 --> 01:20:41 that actually hurts us, it doesn't help this.
01:20:41 --> 01:20:45 But unfortunately, people see things as zero sum.
01:20:46 --> 01:20:52 So we have to get out of a zero sum mindset in order to break down structural racism.
01:20:53 --> 01:20:57 You know, the fact that a black person became president doesn't mean that,
01:20:57 --> 01:21:00 you know, nobody else white will ever be.
01:21:00 --> 01:21:02 Obviously, you know, we've had white presidents since then.
01:21:03 --> 01:21:06 And the fact that somebody gets
01:21:06 --> 01:21:09 SNAP benefits doesn't mean that somebody else, you know, is losing out.
01:21:10 --> 01:21:15 The mindset of people in this country around things like, you know,
01:21:16 --> 01:21:21 the, I'm putting in air quotes here, the image of the welfare queen and things
01:21:21 --> 01:21:24 like that, even though we don't call it that anymore, still persists.
01:21:24 --> 01:21:29 And so people see certain things like, you know, you say the word welfare,
01:21:29 --> 01:21:31 you know, they imagine a Black person.
01:21:31 --> 01:21:34 And that's why it's important to call out those kinds of things,
01:21:34 --> 01:21:39 because the vast majority of People who get what we call welfare benefits are white.
01:21:39 --> 01:21:45 And so we have very wrong ideas, but things are so baked into the system, right?
01:21:46 --> 01:21:50 And it's extremely, so I would say it's really, really difficult to get rid
01:21:50 --> 01:21:53 of structural racism and structural discrimination.
01:21:54 --> 01:21:59 But it's not inevitable. And actually, a true...
01:22:00 --> 01:22:04 Even capitalists would understand that we shouldn't have it because it just
01:22:04 --> 01:22:08 cuts into, you know, free markets.
01:22:08 --> 01:22:13 And I'm not a total capitalist myself, but, you know, if we're going to work
01:22:13 --> 01:22:18 in the system that we have, it costs us billions of dollars every year.
01:22:19 --> 01:22:22 Well, and, you know, it's like studies have shown.
01:22:22 --> 01:22:27 A lot of the people that I've interviewed that are into, that were like consultants,
01:22:28 --> 01:22:29 DEI consultants and all that,
01:22:30 --> 01:22:34 you know, one of the things that was always coming up was the fact that the
01:22:34 --> 01:22:39 more diverse a company was, the more productive they were and production in
01:22:39 --> 01:22:42 a capitalist society means more money, right?
01:22:42 --> 01:22:48 That's right. And so you would think that, and I, and I kind of thought,
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 you know, there's been moments where I've had an altruistic moment, right?
01:22:53 --> 01:22:56 Of course, when Barack Obama got elected and I was running during that time,
01:22:56 --> 01:22:59 I thought that was an altruistic moment.
01:22:59 --> 01:23:03 When I go to Ole Miss and I see frat houses with Obama banners,
01:23:03 --> 01:23:06 I kind of thought, all right, we're turning a corner here, right?
01:23:06 --> 01:23:09 Then we've seen the backlash after that
01:23:09 --> 01:23:12 right and then and then george the george
01:23:12 --> 01:23:16 floyd murder happened and the people's response to that especially
01:23:16 --> 01:23:19 corporate america it was kind of like okay well
01:23:19 --> 01:23:22 maybe they get it now they get it that our
01:23:22 --> 01:23:28 dollars are green just like everybody else's dollars so we might see some change
01:23:28 --> 01:23:35 and now we're seeing the retrenchment from that yes so that's why I believe
01:23:35 --> 01:23:40 because it's a man-made construct that it's not permanent.
01:23:41 --> 01:23:44 So I agree that it's not, it is not inevitable.
01:23:47 --> 01:23:53 However, it's really been a dogged fight to get rid of it. Yes, yes.
01:23:53 --> 01:23:56 And, you know, the thing we have to understand is it's, you know,
01:23:56 --> 01:24:00 it happens globally, right? It's not just in the U.S.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:04 I mean, I'm in Canada at the moment and, you know, it's in Canada,
01:24:04 --> 01:24:10 it's in Europe. And it really goes back to the way the globe was divided up
01:24:10 --> 01:24:13 by the imperialist power.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:17 I need to write a whole other book about that.
01:24:18 --> 01:24:25 But it feels like we're chipping away. I mean, as I like to say,
01:24:26 --> 01:24:29 I am my ancestor's wildest dream, right?
01:24:29 --> 01:24:37 I'm a professor, a well-recognized professor who's been successful and been
01:24:37 --> 01:24:40 to some of the best schools in the U.S.
01:24:40 --> 01:24:43 And now beyond. and I couldn't
01:24:43 --> 01:24:46 have imagined this future when I was growing up in
01:24:46 --> 01:24:55 the 70s but that world has you know we've made our way into that world and I
01:24:55 --> 01:25:01 think that our by our even just by our existence my students are finally you
01:25:01 --> 01:25:05 know probably for the first time in their lives having a black professor you know and.
01:25:06 --> 01:25:12 There are, you know, that representation is so important and also that pulling
01:25:12 --> 01:25:13 people up behind us, which is,
01:25:14 --> 01:25:19 you know, for I've always been oriented that way, but even more so now as I
01:25:19 --> 01:25:20 get into the latter part of my career,
01:25:20 --> 01:25:26 it's so critical that those of us who have made it are looking back and pulling
01:25:26 --> 01:25:29 others up behind us. Yeah.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:36 A thought just came through my mind. Condoleezza Rice was one of your instructors, right?
01:25:37 --> 01:25:40 Yes, she was. So I'm just saying, when you were talking about the ancestors
01:25:40 --> 01:25:46 and the other guest is going to be on the show, we talked about the prayers
01:25:46 --> 01:25:48 of the righteous availeth much.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:56 And so when you talk about our ancestors praying for or imagining us being in
01:25:56 --> 01:25:58 the positions that we were in.
01:25:58 --> 01:26:06 I remember when my great aunt died and I was in the Mississippi legislature at the time.
01:26:07 --> 01:26:12 She was living in Chicago and I came to the funeral and I brought a resolution.
01:26:12 --> 01:26:18 And it was a it was a it was the moment that I realized how important my position
01:26:18 --> 01:26:20 was because most of those folks had left Mississippi.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:24 They left Mississippi where they couldn't even vote. They couldn't even drink
01:26:24 --> 01:26:29 out of the same water fountain. and then to see somebody of their lineage, somebody that.
01:26:30 --> 01:26:35 Is connected to them, being in a position as a state representative at that
01:26:35 --> 01:26:39 thing, that was a powerful moment at that funeral.
01:26:39 --> 01:26:42 And that's when it really hit me.
01:26:42 --> 01:26:48 And then I think about Condoleezza Rice, just like if she had not been late
01:26:48 --> 01:26:53 going to church, we wouldn't have had a Condoleezza Rice. You understand what I'm saying?
01:26:54 --> 01:26:59 And then we wouldn't have had you, or at least not in this form.
01:26:59 --> 01:26:59 You understand what I'm saying?
01:27:00 --> 01:27:06 Right. So, you know, I always think about providence in a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:12 And, you know, I'm a person of faith. I don't try to put that,
01:27:12 --> 01:27:15 but to guide me through what I do.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:20 I believe in providence. I believe in the fact that we've been put in a particular
01:27:20 --> 01:27:23 position, which leads me to this last question.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:31 Nikole Hannah-Jones wrote that Black Americans also have been and continue to
01:27:31 --> 01:27:35 be foundational to the idea of American freedom.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:39 More than any other group in this country's history, we have served generation
01:27:39 --> 01:27:43 after generation in an overlooked but vital role.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:49 It is we who have been the perfectors of this democracy. So my last question
01:27:49 --> 01:27:56 is, if that is the case, when will the rest of America comprehend that and act accordingly?
01:27:56 --> 01:28:02 I agree with that 100%. You know, I loved it when the 1619 Project came out
01:28:02 --> 01:28:05 and actually addressed that very directly.
01:28:05 --> 01:28:08 And, you know...
01:28:09 --> 01:28:15 I think that there are parts of America that will never, you know, understand that.
01:28:15 --> 01:28:20 But there is a huge swath of America right now, even though,
01:28:20 --> 01:28:22 you know, we're in this era we are in.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:27 And maybe because, you know, I hate to put it this way, but sometimes, you know, you have to go.
01:28:27 --> 01:28:31 So think about the civil rights movement, right? We didn't hit a turning point
01:28:31 --> 01:28:36 until people saw the dogs and the fire hoses and all of that.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:40 And I feel like we're in that kind of a moment now where people are,
01:28:40 --> 01:28:44 you know, I mean, in the next few weeks, right, people are in,
01:28:44 --> 01:28:48 you know, a huge swath of the country is going to not be able to eat.
01:28:48 --> 01:28:52 Actually, it's happening now. I was just listening to what's going on with,
01:28:52 --> 01:28:54 you know, food banks are empty, things like that.
01:28:54 --> 01:28:57 And I think this could be, it's not going to be a turning point.
01:28:58 --> 01:29:00 There's going to be a lot of turning points, right?
01:29:00 --> 01:29:04 And we're in the middle of one right now. and so
01:29:04 --> 01:29:08 it's you know I was raised
01:29:08 --> 01:29:11 Catholic and you know I really do believe
01:29:11 --> 01:29:14 in so many of the tenants although there's some
01:29:14 --> 01:29:17 I don't but you know we're in the
01:29:17 --> 01:29:21 tunnel and there's a
01:29:21 --> 01:29:23 potential light there but we're not there to see it
01:29:23 --> 01:29:26 yet and some of us are going to
01:29:26 --> 01:29:29 be you know fighting our way through that tunnel for
01:29:29 --> 01:29:32 a while but i do believe there will be a light and
01:29:32 --> 01:29:35 that light is that point where people understand that we just
01:29:35 --> 01:29:38 have to accept basic humanity but not we
01:29:38 --> 01:29:41 have to go beyond you know it's not just about tolerance yeah i hate that word
01:29:41 --> 01:29:47 because it's about accepting us as you know people who are constantly fighting
01:29:47 --> 01:29:52 for the american dream right we are the biggest believers in the american dream
01:29:52 --> 01:29:57 because and people yeah i remember i was a this guy who came over from the UK was like,
01:29:57 --> 01:29:59 why do Americans join the military so much and so on?
01:30:00 --> 01:30:05 And it's because, you know, because we are loyal Americans and our blood is in the soil.
01:30:06 --> 01:30:10 And that, you know, is the reason my dad joined the military.
01:30:10 --> 01:30:14 That's the reason, you know, I'm living in Canada. And now I will return to the U.S.
01:30:14 --> 01:30:20 Because that is where I belong. And that is where I want to keep fighting for,
01:30:20 --> 01:30:25 you know, the dream, you know, as Langston Hughes has a great poem about this. Right.
01:30:25 --> 01:30:31 And we are the conscience of America. Right.
01:30:31 --> 01:30:35 And I'll leave it at that. Yeah. And I, you know, as a matter of fact,
01:30:36 --> 01:30:38 I literally just said that on my last podcast.
01:30:39 --> 01:30:42 And that's a heavy burden to have.
01:30:42 --> 01:30:50 It is. But I think we've done our best to fulfill that role.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:52 And we're going to continue to do that.
01:30:53 --> 01:30:56 Dr. Terry Givens, I really appreciate you taking the time.
01:30:57 --> 01:31:00 How can people get all of these books that you've written?
01:31:01 --> 01:31:05 And outside of attending a class at the University of British Columbia,
01:31:05 --> 01:31:10 where you're currently teaching now, how can people reach out to you and tap
01:31:10 --> 01:31:11 into that beautiful brain of you?
01:31:12 --> 01:31:18 Oh, thank you. So you can go to my website, which is www.terrigivens.com,
01:31:18 --> 01:31:20 T-E-R-R-I-G-I-V-E-N-S.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:25 And actually, I have a discount right now on both of my books.
01:31:25 --> 01:31:27 If you go to the website, you can get that code.
01:31:27 --> 01:31:33 And then also, if you follow me on LinkedIn or Blue Sky or Threads,
01:31:33 --> 01:31:37 I'm posting about events I'll be having. Next week, I'll be in London.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:42 I'm doing a book at a black bookstore in London called Beacon, New Beacon Books.
01:31:43 --> 01:31:48 And I will also be, I had a webinar that we'll be posting online.
01:31:48 --> 01:31:54 So if you're interested, actually, if you Google me, you'll find all kinds of stuff.
01:31:55 --> 01:31:59 But you can get my books everywhere at Amazon, you know, most bookstores,
01:31:59 --> 01:32:03 actually every bookstore will have access to my books. And you can always use the library.
01:32:04 --> 01:32:10 Well, Doug, it's safe travels, first of all. And then I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.
01:32:11 --> 01:32:16 One of the rules that I have to convey is that now that you've been on,
01:32:16 --> 01:32:20 you have an open invitation to come back. You don't even have to wait for me to ask you.
01:32:20 --> 01:32:24 If there's something on your mind and say, Erik, I need to talk about this,
01:32:24 --> 01:32:29 just reach out and we'll make that happen. But I really appreciate having the
01:32:29 --> 01:32:31 opportunity to talk to you and have this discussion.
01:32:32 --> 01:32:36 Yes, I would love to come back. Let's do something in like February,
01:32:36 --> 01:32:39 March time frame so we can come back to Mamdani and see how things are going.
01:32:40 --> 01:32:46 Well, it might be a little later than that, but we'll talk about that off air.
01:32:46 --> 01:32:51 But we definitely going to get you back on to talk about where we're at with
01:32:51 --> 01:32:54 him and some of these other elected officials.
01:32:54 --> 01:32:56 But again, thank you. I appreciate that.
01:33:10 --> 01:33:14 All right. And we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.
01:33:14 --> 01:33:19 Wylin Wilson and Dr. Terri Givens for coming on the show.
01:33:19 --> 01:33:27 Again, two sisters that, you know, very pleasant, their smiles light up a It
01:33:27 --> 01:33:33 was very, very comfortable and engaging to talk to them,
01:33:35 --> 01:33:37 especially dealing with Dr.
01:33:38 --> 01:33:40 Wilson, talking about the impact
01:33:40 --> 01:33:45 of ethics, especially as the role the black church can play in that.
01:33:47 --> 01:33:54 And Dr. Givens talking about the role that radical empathy can play in moving
01:33:54 --> 01:33:56 this country in a better direction.
01:33:57 --> 01:34:02 You know, it's just really, really good to know that there are people,
01:34:02 --> 01:34:04 especially educators out there.
01:34:04 --> 01:34:09 You know, and I hear people on the conservative side, on the right,
01:34:09 --> 01:34:16 the alt-right, whatever, you know, trying to downplay higher education and trying to.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:24 Equate that to indoctrination or whatever connotation they want to put out there.
01:34:25 --> 01:34:32 But the reality is, is that enlightenment is our job, right?
01:34:32 --> 01:34:39 For those of us who espouse to be religious, because it doesn't matter if you're
01:34:39 --> 01:34:42 part of the Abrahamic religions, that's Judaism,
01:34:43 --> 01:34:48 Christianity or Islam, or, you know, any of the other religions that are out there.
01:34:49 --> 01:34:54 The ultimate goal is for humans to be enlightened, right?
01:34:54 --> 01:34:58 And enlightenment comes through education, through exposure to things.
01:34:59 --> 01:35:04 And so to be the best human being you can be, whether, you know,
01:35:04 --> 01:35:09 those of us that believe, we believe there's an afterlife, but even if you don't believe that,
01:35:10 --> 01:35:15 right, The objective is to be the best human being you can be,
01:35:15 --> 01:35:23 and that's to achieve enlightenment, to achieve the best education you can receive, right?
01:35:23 --> 01:35:28 To seek knowledge each and every opportunity you get, not just be satisfied
01:35:28 --> 01:35:33 what's being regurgitated to you, but to expand your horizons,
01:35:33 --> 01:35:36 to continue to challenge what you see.
01:35:37 --> 01:35:44 And build upon what has already been built. Take a foundation and make a better building, right?
01:35:45 --> 01:35:48 That's the ultimate goal, right? Because
01:35:48 --> 01:35:53 it's one thing for us to have the quote-unquote power of reason, right?
01:35:53 --> 01:35:59 But it's a whole other thing for us to take it to a whole nother level and to
01:35:59 --> 01:36:07 seek enlightenment each and every day we exist, right? Because if we seek enlightenment,
01:36:08 --> 01:36:13 Then we can get to a point where our politics is at a better level,
01:36:13 --> 01:36:15 that our day-to-day lives are at a better level.
01:36:16 --> 01:36:19 We would value safety more.
01:36:19 --> 01:36:24 We would value other people's experiences more, right?
01:36:25 --> 01:36:30 That's what we're trying to get to. And we have to be ethical and we have to
01:36:30 --> 01:36:33 be empathetic to get there.
01:36:33 --> 01:36:36 And we have to have some morals, too.
01:36:36 --> 01:36:42 So, yeah, thank you, Dr. Wilson and Dr. Givens for coming on and having this discussion.
01:36:43 --> 01:36:47 One of the things that I kind of talked to Dr.
01:36:47 --> 01:36:59 Givens about that has bothered me in the aftermath of Election Day 2025 is the
01:36:59 --> 01:37:02 responses that I've been seeing from people that I know.
01:37:03 --> 01:37:09 About Zoran Mamdani being elected mayor of New York City.
01:37:10 --> 01:37:16 Before I get into that, let me congratulate Dontaye Carter, who was a guest on this program.
01:37:16 --> 01:37:23 Dontaye made it to the runoff in Sandy Springs, so he is one step closer to being
01:37:23 --> 01:37:25 the first black mayor in Sandy Springs.
01:37:25 --> 01:37:29 It was looking a little touch and go on election night, but he at least managed
01:37:29 --> 01:37:35 to get into the runoff. And so that's going to happen, I think, December the 2nd.
01:37:36 --> 01:37:44 So if y'all, you know, go back in archives, you know, and find Dontaye's website
01:37:44 --> 01:37:50 and all that stuff, if you pull up Dontaye Carter, you know, you'll get his information.
01:37:50 --> 01:37:55 And remember that you can't spell Dontaye without donate. Remember that.
01:37:56 --> 01:37:59 And, you know, this last little push, he's going to need all the help he can
01:37:59 --> 01:38:05 get to make history and make a difference in Sandy Springs.
01:38:06 --> 01:38:08 So congrats to Dontaye on that.
01:38:09 --> 01:38:13 I was trying to think it was somebody else that I had on. I was running for
01:38:13 --> 01:38:17 something. I don't think so. But there's a lot of stuff that happened.
01:38:17 --> 01:38:28 Right? State of Georgia. Where I am, two Democrats, one in the public service commissioner's race.
01:38:28 --> 01:38:34 And the public service commissioner commission is the one that regulates utilities in the state.
01:38:34 --> 01:38:40 And for a long time, the Republicans had control because primarily Georgia Power,
01:38:41 --> 01:38:46 Southern Power Company, which is, you know, biggest utility in Georgia,
01:38:47 --> 01:38:50 kind of like supporting the other side. Right.
01:38:50 --> 01:38:52 I mean, that's what they do.
01:38:53 --> 01:38:59 And so two Democrats won, a black woman and a white man got elected.
01:39:00 --> 01:39:09 And so now that I that that kind of balances the commission out and it wasn't
01:39:09 --> 01:39:11 the fact that they won. It was the way they won.
01:39:12 --> 01:39:15 I mean, both of them got 62 percent of the vote.
01:39:16 --> 01:39:20 And it wasn't like you voted in a block. You know, I'm saying they each had
01:39:20 --> 01:39:24 to you had to go and vote in one race and then you had to go vote in the other race.
01:39:24 --> 01:39:32 And 62% of Georgians said that they wanted both of these Democrats in those positions, right?
01:39:33 --> 01:39:37 Because people are hurting, especially with the utility rates,
01:39:37 --> 01:39:42 because the Public Service Commission in Georgia has allowed Georgia Power to
01:39:42 --> 01:39:48 go on these efforts to create nuclear power plants.
01:39:48 --> 01:39:55 And they're like $24 billion over budget in building these plants.
01:39:55 --> 01:40:01 They're seven years behind, and the commission hasn't held them accountable, right?
01:40:01 --> 01:40:07 Because, you know, they passed the construction costs to the consumers.
01:40:07 --> 01:40:12 The consumers of electricity, especially those using Georgia Power.
01:40:13 --> 01:40:19 Paying for those plants, right? So for a long time, there really hasn't been
01:40:19 --> 01:40:21 the voice of the people challenging that.
01:40:22 --> 01:40:26 People have come to this Public Service Commission hearings and voiced their
01:40:26 --> 01:40:30 opinion to the commissioners, but they haven't been commissioners putting their
01:40:30 --> 01:40:34 foot down and say, hey, enough is enough. You have to be accountable for something.
01:40:34 --> 01:40:40 So that's a major step. In Mississippi, two Senate seats got flipped.
01:40:42 --> 01:40:45 Two Republican seats got flipped and a House seat got flipped.
01:40:46 --> 01:40:52 But the two Republican seats that got flipped in the state Senate means now
01:40:52 --> 01:40:57 that the Mississippi State Senate does not have a supermajority.
01:40:57 --> 01:41:00 They don't have a supermajority in both houses. What does that mean?
01:41:01 --> 01:41:07 So if you have a supermajority in a legislative body, that means that you can
01:41:07 --> 01:41:12 pass anything that you want, even something that requires a two-thirds or a
01:41:12 --> 01:41:15 three-fifths vote, you can get that passed.
01:41:16 --> 01:41:17 With no opposition.
01:41:17 --> 01:41:23 If it's below the supermajority threshold, then the minority party has a chance
01:41:23 --> 01:41:29 at least to slow some things up and try to get some bad things taken out of
01:41:29 --> 01:41:31 legislation or good things added to legislation.
01:41:31 --> 01:41:36 If you're going to get this bill passed, at least you got to listen to us and
01:41:36 --> 01:41:41 put something in there if you want us to support it, right?
01:41:42 --> 01:41:47 And a lot of that is like, you know, tax stuff, constitutional amendments,
01:41:47 --> 01:41:48 all those kind of things.
01:41:48 --> 01:41:55 So the fact that one House, the Senate in particular, in the Mississippi legislature,
01:41:55 --> 01:41:59 doesn't have a supermajority anymore, doesn't mean, means now that the train
01:41:59 --> 01:42:01 is not going to run smoothly down the tracks.
01:42:02 --> 01:42:06 Whatever flies out of the House of Representatives, and they're going to meet
01:42:06 --> 01:42:09 some resistance in the Senate, right?
01:42:10 --> 01:42:14 Not that they don't meet resistance in the House, but it's a numbers game.
01:42:14 --> 01:42:23 So that's why it's very, very important. So I guess, yeah, I had Mikel Bolden on, the chair.
01:42:23 --> 01:42:27 Well, not the chair. She's the executive director of the Mississippi Democratic Party.
01:42:27 --> 01:42:33 So congratulations to you, Madam Executive Director, for pulling that off.
01:42:33 --> 01:42:36 Now, I've read some commentary, whatever.
01:42:37 --> 01:42:38 The bottom line is.
01:42:39 --> 01:42:46 Mississippi Democrats did something that people had written off and said,
01:42:46 --> 01:42:50 well, Mississippi is just a red state and they're poor and they're just going to suffer.
01:42:51 --> 01:42:54 People have made a decision. Yeah, we're not going to do that.
01:42:55 --> 01:43:00 We need to slow this train down. So when, you know, this presidential election
01:43:00 --> 01:43:03 comes up, if you're a Democrat and you're running for president of the United
01:43:03 --> 01:43:09 States, you might want to make a play for those six electoral votes in Mississippi, Just might.
01:43:09 --> 01:43:14 You might want to go outside of Atlanta to try to get the electoral votes in Georgia.
01:43:15 --> 01:43:21 You might want to do that because these folks have shown that they're just like
01:43:21 --> 01:43:22 everybody else in America.
01:43:22 --> 01:43:25 And it's like we're tired of paying high prices for utilities.
01:43:25 --> 01:43:29 We're tired of paying high prices for gas. We're tired of paying high prices for groceries.
01:43:29 --> 01:43:33 We're just tired. We're tired of this foolishness that's going on in Washington.
01:43:34 --> 01:43:37 You know, they're about to, they're cutting off SNAP benefits.
01:43:38 --> 01:43:40 They're cutting off TANF if they could.
01:43:41 --> 01:43:44 People are losing jobs. Enough of that.
01:43:45 --> 01:43:48 You know, if you want to build a ballroom, that's fine. If you want to get a
01:43:48 --> 01:43:51 plane from a Middle Eastern country, great.
01:43:52 --> 01:43:56 But make sure that you handle your business. Handle your business.
01:43:57 --> 01:44:02 And people across America that got a chance to vote sent that message.
01:44:02 --> 01:44:06 So it was more than just the 7 million people that showed up at the No Kings rally.
01:44:07 --> 01:44:10 It's them people that showed up to vote, right?
01:44:10 --> 01:44:17 And it didn't matter whether it was a moderate like Abigail Spanberger in Virginia
01:44:17 --> 01:44:23 or a Democratic Socialist like Zoran Mamdani in New York.
01:44:23 --> 01:44:27 If you ran on a Democratic ticket, people were going to support you, period.
01:44:28 --> 01:44:31 Because they realized it's the end of the line.
01:44:32 --> 01:44:35 And Nancy Pelosi even got the memo and said, you know what?
01:44:35 --> 01:44:43 I can move on now. I've done all I can do. I think the Democrats are in the right direction.
01:44:44 --> 01:44:46 I can retire now.
01:44:47 --> 01:44:52 The kids got it. They done figured it out. We're in good hands.
01:44:53 --> 01:44:58 That's the impact of what happened on Election Day 2025, right?
01:44:59 --> 01:45:06 So, you know, it's working, whether it's a little podcast like mine or all these
01:45:06 --> 01:45:09 other fabulous podcasters out here, or whether it's people,
01:45:10 --> 01:45:17 organizations like Indivisible organizing individuals to go out and protest,
01:45:17 --> 01:45:23 Democracy Forward and the ACLU and Mark Elias by his damn self running out there
01:45:23 --> 01:45:25 and challenging everything they can in court.
01:45:26 --> 01:45:32 It's working. And I said something a long time ago, and some people probably
01:45:32 --> 01:45:34 think, well, you might be right.
01:45:35 --> 01:45:42 Although, you know, America is not a country easy to be a dictator of because
01:45:42 --> 01:45:47 the whole notion of this nation was independence.
01:45:48 --> 01:45:55 The thing that drove slaves to become mayors and governors and presidents was independence.
01:45:55 --> 01:46:02 And Native Americans and Asian Americans and Latino Americans to ascend and
01:46:02 --> 01:46:09 make impacts in American society has been driven by freedom and independence, right?
01:46:10 --> 01:46:16 You can't be a dictator until you squash that.
01:46:17 --> 01:46:20 And I just don't see any way, shape, or form.
01:46:21 --> 01:46:26 That the United States, anybody in the United States would be successful in
01:46:26 --> 01:46:29 squashing that spirit of independence,
01:46:30 --> 01:46:33 that spirit of freedom that dwells
01:46:33 --> 01:46:37 in the majority of us, the overwhelming majority of us, right? Right.
01:46:38 --> 01:46:44 So, you know, I. But I want to get back to Mamdani.
01:46:45 --> 01:46:48 So I was really, really disturbed when I saw people that I knew,
01:46:48 --> 01:46:56 people I voted for, people grew up with or whatever, saying all these crazy things.
01:46:57 --> 01:47:02 You know, I get a certain section of people would take that route.
01:47:02 --> 01:47:07 I get that people that are not enlightened would take that,
01:47:08 --> 01:47:15 but people that are in my orbit, people that I've had conversations with or
01:47:15 --> 01:47:17 had some connection with,
01:47:18 --> 01:47:25 would take to extreme things like saying that people in New York forgot.
01:47:26 --> 01:47:35 Now, I think it is ironic that 24 years after 9-11, that a person of the Muslim
01:47:35 --> 01:47:40 faith would be able to ascend and become the leader of that city.
01:47:41 --> 01:47:47 But I think that's a testament to New Yorkers. I don't think that's amnesia.
01:47:48 --> 01:47:57 I don't think that's naivete. say, I think that's the example of what America is about, right?
01:47:57 --> 01:48:06 Because to be Muslim in New York in 2001, in America in 2001,
01:48:06 --> 01:48:09 was not really a comfortable place to be, you know?
01:48:10 --> 01:48:12 I just remember that.
01:48:13 --> 01:48:19 That limo driver when we were in Dearborn, Michigan, and we were heading back to Mississippi.
01:48:21 --> 01:48:25 And we told him what time our flight was. And he said, oh, well,
01:48:25 --> 01:48:27 y'all got time to kind of see something.
01:48:28 --> 01:48:32 And we were like, okay. You know, we had been in meetings all weekend.
01:48:32 --> 01:48:35 All right. Didn't do a whole lot of sightseeing.
01:48:36 --> 01:48:46 So we said, okay. And so he took us to this restaurant and he was Yemenese, right? Or from Yemen.
01:48:46 --> 01:48:52 His lineage was Yemen. And he took us to this particular restaurant and it was
01:48:52 --> 01:48:57 like right after church had let out for some of the Christian churches around
01:48:57 --> 01:48:59 that time around brunch, right?
01:49:00 --> 01:49:07 And so they were Lebanese and Yemeni people primarily at this restaurant.
01:49:08 --> 01:49:13 And it was a Mediterranean cuisine, you know, hummus and falafel,
01:49:13 --> 01:49:14 the whole nine yards, right?
01:49:14 --> 01:49:20 And so, you know, he said you could tell the, he was telling you could tell
01:49:20 --> 01:49:24 the Christians because they're wearing suits and dresses, you know,
01:49:24 --> 01:49:27 everybody else has got to dress however they want to dress.
01:49:28 --> 01:49:32 And, and everybody was eating and it was just, it was just a cool experience.
01:49:32 --> 01:49:36 It was like, you know, the table was, you know, one of those turning tables,
01:49:36 --> 01:49:39 which I love at restaurants. There's a restaurant in Vicksburg,
01:49:39 --> 01:49:42 Mississippi that's like that too where they just set all the food on the table
01:49:42 --> 01:49:47 and you just spin it and, you know, pull what you want, right?
01:49:48 --> 01:49:51 And so they had that same setup at this restaurant and it was just like the
01:49:51 --> 01:49:54 people were just, you know, and everybody was so friendly and so kind.
01:49:54 --> 01:49:57 Now, you know, everybody in my group was black, so...
01:49:58 --> 01:50:05 You know, I know it would have been a better gauge if somebody in our group was white.
01:50:05 --> 01:50:10 But nonetheless, you know, they knew we were Americans, you know, natives.
01:50:11 --> 01:50:17 And so, you know, I mean, it was a beautiful experience. And that was a beautiful
01:50:17 --> 01:50:19 image to see before I left.
01:50:20 --> 01:50:23 Right. And that kind of ties into what Dr.
01:50:23 --> 01:50:27 Givens was talking about, about empathy, is that you have to be able to be exposed
01:50:27 --> 01:50:31 and see the beauty of that. other cultures, right?
01:50:32 --> 01:50:37 So, you know, in the group I was with, none of those folks were in this group
01:50:37 --> 01:50:41 that I'm talking about that was attacking Mamdani, but, you know,
01:50:41 --> 01:50:43 it was an exposure for us.
01:50:43 --> 01:50:51 It was a cool one. And so I guess the thing that bothers me is that anybody
01:50:51 --> 01:50:54 that I affiliate with or had some connection with,
01:50:55 --> 01:50:59 whether it's family or classmates or colleagues or whatever,
01:50:59 --> 01:51:01 that would take this kind of position,
01:51:01 --> 01:51:04 the first thing you have to question is,
01:51:04 --> 01:51:07 wow, was my antenna off on these people?
01:51:08 --> 01:51:10 You know? It's like,
01:51:11 --> 01:51:16 Am I really, really that attuned? And, you know, in politics,
01:51:16 --> 01:51:19 you've got to deal with everybody, right?
01:51:19 --> 01:51:26 But folks that you kind of, like, connect with, even as for just an election,
01:51:26 --> 01:51:30 when you see the way that they're responding, it's just kind of like,
01:51:31 --> 01:51:33 wow, I didn't see that coming.
01:51:34 --> 01:51:40 And, you know, I guess, you know, Doc was right that you need to ask proper questions.
01:51:42 --> 01:51:50 And I need to do it in a way where it's not combative, where their automatic
01:51:50 --> 01:51:54 response is defense, right?
01:51:54 --> 01:51:57 It should be inviting. It should be open.
01:51:57 --> 01:52:03 Hey, why do you think that this is the outcome?
01:52:03 --> 01:52:10 Why do you think that people forgot about 9-11 because they voted for a young
01:52:10 --> 01:52:13 man who was literally like 9 or 10 years old when it actually happened?
01:52:14 --> 01:52:19 Why would you think that has the indication that they forgot?
01:52:20 --> 01:52:24 When you see that memorial, if you're in downtown Manhattan,
01:52:24 --> 01:52:27 you see that memorial every day.
01:52:27 --> 01:52:30 You see that light shoot up.
01:52:31 --> 01:52:36 September 11th every year. Why would you think that, right?
01:52:36 --> 01:52:42 Now, I know a lot of people have the cynical sense about the American population,
01:52:42 --> 01:52:48 especially when it comes to politics, that the majority of Americans are gullible, and they're not.
01:52:49 --> 01:52:54 The majority of Americans that take the time to vote and engage in politics are very, very smart.
01:52:55 --> 01:53:00 Now, the question is, how egalitarian are they, right?
01:53:00 --> 01:53:04 Are they more concerned about what's going on in their house and think that
01:53:04 --> 01:53:07 that person would help that situation?
01:53:07 --> 01:53:12 Or are they more concerned about the community and the nation as a whole and
01:53:12 --> 01:53:15 how they vote? But it's not because of lack of intelligence.
01:53:16 --> 01:53:20 Now, there might be degrees of enlightenment that we need to discuss.
01:53:21 --> 01:53:27 But as far as intelligence, as far as understanding what that person said and how it made them feel.
01:53:28 --> 01:53:36 No, that's not dim-wittedness. That's not having amnesia.
01:53:36 --> 01:53:40 That's making a competent choice.
01:53:41 --> 01:53:47 And the challenge has always been is that the more knowledge that people have,
01:53:47 --> 01:53:49 the better decisions they will make.
01:53:49 --> 01:53:55 So the question is, how are they getting their information to make their votes?
01:53:55 --> 01:54:01 Based on the results we saw, the information they got said, enough of what we're dealing with.
01:54:02 --> 01:54:08 We need to do something better. We voted last year thinking,
01:54:08 --> 01:54:10 all right, we're going to give this guy another chance.
01:54:10 --> 01:54:14 Maybe he's learned something. Maybe he's matured a little bit.
01:54:14 --> 01:54:18 Now that we realize he's batshit crazy, yeah, no.
01:54:19 --> 01:54:23 And it's not crazy like delusional.
01:54:23 --> 01:54:29 Well, you can make that argument, you can't, but overpower, just the consumption of power.
01:54:30 --> 01:54:36 That's all that person wants and money, the ultimate epitome of greed. People don't want that.
01:54:37 --> 01:54:41 You told us you were going to look out for us. Now that we see that you and
01:54:41 --> 01:54:45 your friends are not, then we're going to vote for somebody that is.
01:54:45 --> 01:54:52 And it may not be the most conventional person. And as somebody astutely said,
01:54:52 --> 01:55:00 if Spamburger ran in New York and Mamdani ran in Virginia, both of them would have lost.
01:55:01 --> 01:55:05 Right. They might not have even made it out of the primary. So,
01:55:05 --> 01:55:10 you know, and I think it's funny that Mikie Sherrill was born in Virginia and
01:55:10 --> 01:55:11 now she's a governor of New Jersey.
01:55:12 --> 01:55:15 And Abigail Spanberger was born in New Jersey. Now she's the governor of Virginia.
01:55:15 --> 01:55:20 I think that's hilarious as far as irony goes.
01:55:20 --> 01:55:24 And they both were like military or, you know, people.
01:55:24 --> 01:55:34 Yeah. Yeah, I think it just goes to show that people vote for who they're comfortable with.
01:55:34 --> 01:55:39 And you can be in Georgia and you can be in Mississippi and you can be wherever
01:55:39 --> 01:55:46 and don't like Mamdani, but the citizens of New York felt comfortable with him.
01:55:47 --> 01:55:52 Just like the citizens of New Jersey said, Congresswoman Sherill should be our governor.
01:55:53 --> 01:55:57 Same with Virginia. Congresswoman Spanberger should be our governor, right?
01:55:58 --> 01:56:01 Former mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi, is now going to be a member of the state Senate.
01:56:02 --> 01:56:07 A few years ago, he fell short running for governor of the state of Mississippi,
01:56:07 --> 01:56:12 but now he's a state senator. He's in the game.
01:56:13 --> 01:56:18 So it's up to people to make those decisions, right?
01:56:19 --> 01:56:26 And we have to trust people. and how you trust people by giving them all the information they need.
01:56:28 --> 01:56:34 In California, there was literally one thing on the ballot, a proposition to
01:56:34 --> 01:56:37 allow the state to redraw lines.
01:56:37 --> 01:56:42 Very transparent. We're going to try to get five more Democrats because the
01:56:42 --> 01:56:49 state of Texas called a special session and redrew lines to try to give Donald
01:56:49 --> 01:56:51 Trump five more congressmen.
01:56:52 --> 01:56:57 So we need to do the same thing in California. and they called the election
01:56:57 --> 01:56:59 as soon as the polls closed.
01:56:59 --> 01:57:03 It wasn't even close. As soon as they say the polls are closed at California,
01:57:03 --> 01:57:07 oh, Proposition 50 wins. Wasn't even close.
01:57:09 --> 01:57:18 So all I can tell you is that we need to continue to make our voices heard and
01:57:18 --> 01:57:21 to help our fellow Americans find their way.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:29 I just think about the fact that it took a Republican president to try to make
01:57:29 --> 01:57:36 the word welfare a negative connotation when it literally is in the first paragraph, that very word.
01:57:38 --> 01:57:41 Is in the first paragraph of the United States Constitution.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:48 And it's attached to a phrase that says promote the general welfare.
01:57:49 --> 01:57:51 Right? We're supposed to help people.
01:57:53 --> 01:57:58 The obligation is to help defend the Constitution and the people of the United
01:57:58 --> 01:58:03 States and to promote their welfare and secure their liberty,
01:58:03 --> 01:58:06 their independence, their desire for freedom.
01:58:07 --> 01:58:11 Those are the main goals. And everything else is about the structure of how
01:58:11 --> 01:58:14 to make that happen. But preamble sets the guy.
01:58:16 --> 01:58:21 So, you know, I get it. We changed the name from welfare program to TANF and
01:58:21 --> 01:58:26 SNAP and all that, but it's still welfare because we're trying to help people.
01:58:28 --> 01:58:36 And the minute that all the Democrats and all the Republicans and all the libertarians
01:58:36 --> 01:58:42 and all the Green Party and all the any other party you want to throw out there.
01:58:42 --> 01:58:46 Once they all get that, then we'll be much better off.
01:58:47 --> 01:58:51 Right now, it seems like there's a lot of Democrats coming in that get the memo
01:58:51 --> 01:58:55 and we'll see how they govern once they get in there.
01:58:56 --> 01:59:00 It'd be a shame if the Mississippi folks in the state legislature get sworn
01:59:00 --> 01:59:04 in before the Congresswoman from Arizona. That'd be a shame.
01:59:05 --> 01:59:10 But we'll see when they all get in there, how they govern.
01:59:10 --> 01:59:16 And then we can make a decision whether, okay, was that the right move or not? And vote accordingly.
01:59:18 --> 01:59:20 My gut feeling is it's going to be the right thing.
01:59:21 --> 01:59:26 And more people of that like mindset get in, it's going to be okay.
01:59:27 --> 01:59:29 If you've got people that are trying to do the right thing and they're over
01:59:29 --> 01:59:30 their head, that's all right.
01:59:31 --> 01:59:36 Hopefully, they'll grow into the position. If they can't, we have to make a
01:59:36 --> 01:59:37 change. It's just that simple.
01:59:38 --> 01:59:43 It's not really that hard because this is all about building a more perfect
01:59:43 --> 01:59:45 union. It's a never-ending project.
01:59:46 --> 01:59:53 But we got to get out of this fear mongering crap. We got to get out of this absolute fear mindset.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:56 We got to be brave.
01:59:57 --> 02:00:02 And just like I don't believe that we would totally have a dictator in the United
02:00:02 --> 02:00:09 States, I don't believe that we will totally become engaged in Shahira law either.
02:00:11 --> 02:00:15 Right i don't think we're going to have that extreme i think america is going to be fine,
02:00:16 --> 02:00:21 as long as we realize that we're all americans doesn't matter what color we
02:00:21 --> 02:00:27 are doesn't matter what language we speak or we're more fluent in right doesn't
02:00:27 --> 02:00:32 matter who we love doesn't matter what we desire to be once we realize we're all americans.