As we commemorate Memorial Day, this episode highlights two women who are advocates for a better and safer society. The legendary educator Jane Elliott makes the case for all of us to change our thinking about race, while Alexandra Smalls, founder of Chosen Children Doula Services, explains her work and how it is important in mitigating maternal mortality.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:20 --> 00:01:55 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:01 Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:01 --> 00:02:05 And this is the Memorial Day edition.
00:02:05 --> 00:02:13 So this is the day that we remember those who, through their military service,
00:02:14 --> 00:02:22 gave the ultimate sacrifice so that we in America could have a free existence,
00:02:22 --> 00:02:24 a democratic existence.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:32 And, you know, that's saying something, considering where we are.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:41 And, you know, it's days like this that remind us that there are human beings
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 who, through courage, through commitment,
00:02:45 --> 00:02:49 that they're willing to die for something they believe in, right?
00:02:50 --> 00:02:58 And so, whether you served or not, this is a very important day for us.
00:02:59 --> 00:03:04 And, you know, this weekend, I'm sure a lot of people had barbecues and people
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 were barbecuing today and, you know, the off work and all that.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:17 But just remember that the whole purpose of setting aside this day was to commemorate
00:03:17 --> 00:03:19 those who fought for our freedom.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 And if you understand the history of Memorial Day, you understand that this
00:03:25 --> 00:03:30 was a holiday that Black people started, right?
00:03:31 --> 00:03:37 And if you don't believe me, just look it up. You'll see who had the initial
00:03:37 --> 00:03:44 celebrations and how it evolved to where we recognize all soldiers who have done this.
00:03:46 --> 00:03:53 And so because this is a special edition, I just wanted to do something a little different.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:59 So Grace is not going to be with us today, but we're going to go right into the interviews.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 And one of the interviews that,
00:04:05 --> 00:04:11 Well, let me put it this way. The first interview I have is a woman who has
00:04:11 --> 00:04:16 dedicated her life to end racism in the United States.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 And she's been doing this work almost as long as I've been alive.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:28 And for her to accept the invitation to come on this podcast was a major,
00:04:28 --> 00:04:32 major honor for me, very humbling for me.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:37 And so I want y'all to hear her interview first,
00:04:37 --> 00:04:46 and then there'll be another sister coming on who talks about an issue that
00:04:46 --> 00:04:48 Black women have been dealing with,
00:04:48 --> 00:04:54 and that's maternal mortality, right?
00:04:55 --> 00:05:00 And this young lady comes from a very, very unique perspective in that.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:09 So, but now the first lady that I'm interviewing is, she's not going to be upset,
00:05:09 --> 00:05:14 but she's going to be disappointed because I still use the term black and all this stuff.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:19 And her whole mission, just like a previous guest I've had in the past,
00:05:19 --> 00:05:23 is to get us out of using that kind of language.
00:05:23 --> 00:05:31 But she understands at least she understands my position on that but you know we're,
00:05:31 --> 00:05:37 We'll see how it goes, but as long as she's with us, she's going to try to get
00:05:37 --> 00:05:45 us in the right direction to realize that all of us are just human and all of us are brown, right?
00:05:45 --> 00:05:49 We're all related, and you'll hear all that in the interview.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 And this lady I'm talking about is Jane Elliott.
00:05:54 --> 00:06:01 Jane Elliott was chosen as one of Peter Jennings' ABC TV's Persons of the Week.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:09 Jane is the adapter of the blue eyes, brown eyes discrimination experiment.
00:06:10 --> 00:06:16 The sensitizing exercise in which participants are labeled inferior or superior
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 based on the color of their eyes began in a third grade classroom in an all
00:06:21 --> 00:06:24 white, all Christian Riceville, Iowa,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 immediately after the assassination of Dr.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:32 Martin Luther King Jr. It has been repeated with dramatic results with children
00:06:32 --> 00:06:33 and adults throughout the country.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 Those who have been through this exercise have said that it is an emotionally
00:06:38 --> 00:06:40 significant and life-changing experience.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:46 This groundbreaking exercise is the pinnacle of all other diversity programming in the country today.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 Several television documentaries have covered a work, among them ABC's The Eye
00:06:52 --> 00:06:58 of the Storm, which won the Peabody Award. A Class Divided, which dealt with
00:06:58 --> 00:07:01 the long-term impact of the exercise and Ms.
00:07:02 --> 00:07:08 Elliott's work with adults and was broadcast nationally on PBS's frontline series,
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 The Eye of the Beholder, which also dealt with adults and their reactions to
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 discrimination and was produced by Florida Public Television.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:22 Both the latter films received an Emmy Award and most recently released award-winning
00:07:22 --> 00:07:25 film The Angry Eye is also available for purchase.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 The Angry Eye is a dynamic and provocative documentary showcasing Jane Elliott's
00:07:31 --> 00:07:35 world-famous blue-eyed, brown-eyed exercise in discrimination.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 The tables are turned on white American college students as they are forced
00:07:39 --> 00:07:43 to experience the same kind of racial treatment African Americans and other
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 minorities have been receiving for years.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 In the documentary, students' reactions are intercut with Elliott's observations.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:54 The film is disturbing, both for the participants and for the viewers who are
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 made to confront their own prejudices.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:01 Jane Elliott is a recipient of the National Mental Health Association Award
00:08:01 --> 00:08:02 for Excellence in Education.
00:08:03 --> 00:08:08 She has been a guest lecturer at numerous colleges and universities and has
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 been a guest on a wide variety of television shows, including the Today Show,
00:08:12 --> 00:08:16 Tonight with Johnny Carson, Donna Hugh, and Oprah Winfrey Show.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:22 She is hailed as the leader in diversity training, a veteran presenter who has
00:08:22 --> 00:08:27 addressed groups ranging from colleges and universities to civil service organizations,
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 elementary schools, corporations and businesses.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:36 Ladies and gentlemen, it is truly my distinct honor and privilege to have as
00:08:36 --> 00:08:40 a guest on this podcast, Jane Elliott.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:50 Music.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:59 All right. It is my honor and privilege to have Jane Elliott as a guest on this
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 podcast. Ms. Elliott, how are you doing?
00:09:03 --> 00:09:06 I'm doing just fine. For my age, I'm still alive, so I'm doing just fine.
00:09:06 --> 00:09:10 Yeah, yeah. And you look and sound wonderful.
00:09:10 --> 00:09:14 And really, really, I say this with all sincerity. I'm really,
00:09:15 --> 00:09:16 really honored that you accepted my invitation.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:23 I reach out to a lot of people and every now and then I get somebody that I've
00:09:23 --> 00:09:29 admired for a long time, especially when it's about courage.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:36 And I've had the unique privilege to work with some people who exhibit a lot
00:09:36 --> 00:09:38 of courage and did things.
00:09:38 --> 00:09:42 So for you to be on the podcast, it's really, really an honor and a treat for
00:09:42 --> 00:09:45 me. So I thank you again for that.
00:09:45 --> 00:09:50 So let's get it started like I normally do. I usually do a couple of icebreakers.
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 And the first icebreaker is a quote.
00:09:54 --> 00:10:00 So I want you to give me your interpretation of what this quote means to you.
00:10:01 --> 00:10:06 Liars are not believed for sooth, even liars tell the truth.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07 What does that quote mean to you?
00:10:08 --> 00:10:12 That means that you must not vote for a Donald Trump.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 Liars are not relieved for soon even when liars tell
00:10:18 --> 00:10:22 the truth if you have a reputation for being a liar you might as well just shut
00:10:22 --> 00:10:26 up because nobody's going to believe anything that you say people need to learn
00:10:26 --> 00:10:31 that and practice that where our present so-called leader is concerned this
00:10:31 --> 00:10:36 is his stock in trade to lie as often as he can and lie about what he just lied about,
00:10:37 --> 00:10:42 So once you've gotten that label, you need to know that you shouldn't be listened
00:10:42 --> 00:10:43 to because you can't be trusted.
00:10:44 --> 00:10:51 Yeah. All right. So give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:56 For what? So this is the other icebreaker.
00:10:56 --> 00:10:59 It's like, I just need a, I need you to give me a number and then I'll give
00:10:59 --> 00:11:01 you a question corresponding with that number.
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 Oh, I see. I thought you were getting, like, wanting me to grade liars.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:10 No. Okay. Number 10 is, 10 is a good number. All right.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:17 What one fact do you wish people who voted differently than you in the last election knew?
00:11:17 --> 00:11:21 Either about how you voted, about the current state of the world,
00:11:21 --> 00:11:27 whatever. What one fact do you wish people who voted differently than you in the last election knew?
00:11:28 --> 00:11:32 I want people to know that this country right now, this society,
00:11:32 --> 00:11:35 is on the edge of losing its democracy.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:40 And that can happen because now they're going to arrange that women can vote
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 only if they have the proper identification when they go to the polls.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:47 And that's a whole lot of us who do not have our original birth certificate.
00:11:48 --> 00:11:53 We may not have our original marriage license. We may, and if we don't have
00:11:53 --> 00:11:56 those and a passport, we won't be allowed to vote.
00:11:56 --> 00:12:01 This person, this group is trying to deny women the right to vote.
00:12:01 --> 00:12:05 And that means if it happens now, he will be so-called president.
00:12:05 --> 00:12:10 He'll become a king for the next, as long as he's alive. This is a very scary time.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:13 People need to realize that voting is absolutely essential.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:17 And they're trying to take away that right from women in this country today.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:25 Yeah. And that's a very important point because there are a lot of women who
00:12:25 --> 00:12:28 have been blessed to have been on this earth as long as you,
00:12:28 --> 00:12:31 and especially from all of state Mississippi.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:36 When you get to us, it was like, I remember I had to go get a birth certificate
00:12:36 --> 00:12:42 for my dad, and my dad was born in 41, and there wasn't a birth certificate for him.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:47 I had to get something From the state that said, according to our records,
00:12:47 --> 00:12:51 he was born on this date, but it's an official state document, right?
00:12:51 --> 00:12:58 And so there's going to be a lot of women that fall in that category just in Mississippi alone.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:04 And many of them are going to be what we call women of color.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:10 You know that, and I know that. This is another attempt to rob people who don't look like dinosaurs T.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:13 Rump of the right to vote. And we have to put a stop to this.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:20 Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree with that. But so you constantly remind people
00:13:20 --> 00:13:24 that prejudice is an emotional commitment to ignorance.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:27 As a matter of fact, you wear a shirt all the time that says that.
00:13:28 --> 00:13:31 Would it be fair to say that during your time growing up in Riceville,
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 Iowa, that you were living an innocent existence of ignorance?
00:13:36 --> 00:13:42 And was there any point prior to adulthood that you can go back and say that
00:13:42 --> 00:13:43 was an enlightening moment?
00:13:44 --> 00:13:48 Every time my father opened his mouth, it was an enlightening moment,
00:13:48 --> 00:13:51 but we didn't listen carefully. My father was a believing Baptist.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:56 My mother was a casual Catholic. So we've got two sides of that.
00:13:56 --> 00:14:01 And my father said, never judge a book by its cover, but don't be bringing any
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 pickaninnies into my house as grandchildren. So there we were.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 He absolutely believed in telling the truth. But when he said that,
00:14:08 --> 00:14:12 I realized that, wait a minute, Dad. You say, don't judge a book by its cover
00:14:12 --> 00:14:18 or a man by the color of his skin, and yet you don't want any pickaninnies in your grandchildren.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:23 I'll never forget the day my Saudi Arabian son-in-law and my daughter brought
00:14:23 --> 00:14:29 their child up to our house and put her in my father's arms.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:34 And my father looked at that kid and said, it's the most beautiful child I've ever seen.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:38 And then he looked up at those two young people and he said, that's a good cross.
00:14:39 --> 00:14:42 My father was a farmer, and he recognized a good cross when he saw it.
00:14:42 --> 00:14:45 He said, that's a good cross. He absolutely adored.
00:14:46 --> 00:14:50 And he could stand that son-in-law in spite of his religion,
00:14:50 --> 00:14:55 in spite of the color of the skin, because that's a good cross. Yeah.
00:14:56 --> 00:15:02 So I believe that your Damascus Road experience took place in Waterloo,
00:15:02 --> 00:15:06 Iowa, when you and your husband were trying to rent out your apartment.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:10 Talk to the listeners about that pivotal moment in your life.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:18 We were trying to rent our house because the store had lost its business,
00:15:18 --> 00:15:22 moved across the street, moved across the river. So we were trying to sell our house.
00:15:23 --> 00:15:28 And the woman called and said, do you rent to coloreds? And I said,
00:15:28 --> 00:15:29 this is an all-white neighborhood.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:35 And I had up to that point sworn that I would never cooperate with racism because
00:15:35 --> 00:15:39 Waterloo was a racist community. I wouldn't cooperate with it.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:43 My husband had a job running a store on the North End, which was the so-called black section.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:45 And I swore I'd never cooperate with racism.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:48 And then I said, this is an all-white community.
00:15:48 --> 00:15:50 And I knew what I had done.
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 And I was embarrassed. I was ashamed. And I was mortified.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:59 And I swore I would never do that again or cooperate with that again. And I haven't.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 I learned a lot that day. I learned a lot about myself, about my society,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:09 about democracy, and about racism. So talk about that lesson.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:17 So, you know, because you said that you didn't want to cooperate,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:22 but at that moment you felt that you did. What did you learn about yourself
00:16:22 --> 00:16:24 that you said never again?
00:16:25 --> 00:16:34 I learned that when push comes to shove, we'll do what is most convenient or most favorable for us.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:39 And I knew what I had done. And I wondered then, how often have you done things
00:16:39 --> 00:16:45 without even thinking about it that were racist in how you did them and what
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46 you did and what you said?
00:16:46 --> 00:16:49 How many times have I done that very thing?
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 I didn't think that I had, but I will never forget that one.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:55 I will never, as long as I live, forget that one.
00:16:55 --> 00:17:02 And I can't fix it, but I've tried very hard to overcome that ignorance.
00:17:02 --> 00:17:05 Self-imposed ignorance is going to be the death of this country.
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 If we don't start to learn about what this is all about, if these so-called
00:17:10 --> 00:17:14 white people don't start to realize that they don't exist, I wear a sign on
00:17:14 --> 00:17:17 my shirt that says we're all shades of brown because we are.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:20 There are no white people. There are no black people. There are no yellow or
00:17:20 --> 00:17:24 red people we're all shades of brown because we all came from the same place
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 and once we get it into our heads that we're all one race and one color group
00:17:28 --> 00:17:34 we could do away with a whole lot of unpleasantness can you imagine a world
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 a country in which you did not accept,
00:17:39 --> 00:17:44 or reject people based on the color of their skin, on the amount of a chemical in their skin.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 Can you imagine that kind of country? We could have that.
00:17:48 --> 00:17:53 If we are what we say you are, the land of the free and the home of the brave, nonsense.
00:17:54 --> 00:17:56 We're the land of the white and the home of the ignorant.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:00 It's being changed for us, whether we like it or not, we like it.
00:18:00 --> 00:18:06 Only 15 to 18 percent of the human population of the earth is classified as white.
00:18:06 --> 00:18:10 That's a misnomer. We aren't white. We are shades of brown, but we've got this
00:18:10 --> 00:18:13 idea of white in our heads, and we can't get it out, but we're going to have to.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:18 Very shortly, within 25 years now, it was 30 before, but within 25 years,
00:18:19 --> 00:18:23 this country will, white people, so-called white people, will be a minority
00:18:23 --> 00:18:28 group in this country, and that's what a whole lot of pale, stale males are scared to death of.
00:18:29 --> 00:18:35 They're afraid that these people who are white are going to treat us the way we have treated them.
00:18:35 --> 00:18:37 If they believe in the golden rule, we're in trouble.
00:18:38 --> 00:18:42 Treat others the way you want to be treated? No, we don't treat others the way we want to be treated.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 We pale, stale people do not treat others the way we want to be treated.
00:18:46 --> 00:18:50 We treat them the way we want to treat them based on our ignorance about skin color.
00:18:50 --> 00:18:53 I don't believe in the golden rule. I believe in the platinum rule.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:56 Do unto others as others would have you do unto them.
00:18:56 --> 00:18:59 And in order to know how somebody else wants to be treated, I can't walk up
00:18:59 --> 00:19:01 to them and say, what do people want?
00:19:01 --> 00:19:05 I have to study. I have to learn. I have to listen. I have to read.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:08 I have to try to figure out how it is that they are, how their difference,
00:19:09 --> 00:19:12 their wishes are different from my own. And then I have to act that.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 The golden rule has been misused long enough as far as I'm concerned.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:21 Yeah. And I'm a I'm a drill down on what you just said and another question.
00:19:22 --> 00:19:23 But I want to ask you this one first.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:27 It has been thoroughly documented that the assassination of Dr.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:33 King motivated you to conduct the first brown eyes, blue eyes exercise with your third grade class.
00:19:34 --> 00:19:37 What was it about Dr. King that inspired you so?
00:19:39 --> 00:19:45 All he wanted was for all of us to be treated fairly, not equally, but equitably.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:50 What is wrong with that? What was wrong with that is he had the wrong color skin. I was furious.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:54 I had lived in Waterloo, Iowa for a number of years.
00:19:54 --> 00:20:00 Our children were born there, and my husband's best friends were not white,
00:20:01 --> 00:20:06 and neither were my husband and I, but we thought we were. I was absolutely
00:20:06 --> 00:20:08 offended and disgusted and angered.
00:20:08 --> 00:20:15 And I listened to the palestale males on television that night as they discussed
00:20:15 --> 00:20:16 the killing of Martin Luther King Jr.
00:20:16 --> 00:20:21 One of them said to three leaders of the black community, when our leader was
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 killed, his widow held us together.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 Who's going to keep your people in line?
00:20:25 --> 00:20:28 And our leader was killed. Martin Luther King Jr.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:30 Was the leader of all of us.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:34 JFK was the leader of all of us, not just the white people. Who's going to keep
00:20:34 --> 00:20:36 your people in line. So I changed the channel.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:41 And there's another brilliant male, stale male saying, don't you Negroes think
00:20:41 --> 00:20:45 you should feel sympathy for us white people because we can't feel the anger
00:20:45 --> 00:20:48 at this telling that you Negroes can? I was furious.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:52 How dare he ask such a question? How dare he think such a thing?
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 And how dare he say it out loud on television? I was furious.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:00 At that moment, I decided I was going to do what I had thought about doing.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 I was going to separate my students according to the color of their eyes the
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 next day, and I was going to treat those who had the wrong color eyes the way
00:21:07 --> 00:21:10 we have treated the Jews in this country for a whole lot of years,
00:21:10 --> 00:21:13 the way we have treated people who are other than what we call black in this
00:21:13 --> 00:21:14 country for a whole lot of years.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:21 I was going to expose them to the ugliness of racism based on a physical characteristic
00:21:21 --> 00:21:22 over which they had no control.
00:21:23 --> 00:21:26 I didn't know how this would work. If I had known how it would work,
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27 I probably wouldn't have done it.
00:21:27 --> 00:21:31 If I had known what was going to happen to me and my family, my husband,
00:21:32 --> 00:21:36 my siblings as a result of that, I would have said to myself,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:41 no, I'll just get through the day and not talk about it, which is what the other
00:21:41 --> 00:21:42 teachers did, just not talk about it.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:48 Or a couple of them made such remarks in the teacher's lounge that I realized
00:21:48 --> 00:21:55 that they couldn't possibly be treating that in a logical or even non-caring manner. It was awful.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 The remarks in the teacher's lounge were absolutely terrible,
00:21:57 --> 00:22:03 which solidified my determination to have those kids go through an exercise
00:22:03 --> 00:22:05 in color based on the color of
00:22:05 --> 00:22:10 their eyes in order for them to understand not only how it felt to do it,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:13 but how it felt to be on the receding end of it. And that's what I did.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:18 See, I'm going to push back on you a little bit because I think that you would have done it.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:23 You may not have done it that day, but I think just in the brief interaction
00:22:23 --> 00:22:28 I'm having with you right now, I think at some point in time,
00:22:28 --> 00:22:31 you would have done that. You would have conducted that experiment.
00:22:31 --> 00:22:36 It may not have been out of your frustration and anger like the next day,
00:22:36 --> 00:22:40 but I think because you have this experience.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:49 Firing you to deal with this problem in America, and you had this opportunity
00:22:49 --> 00:22:52 to shape young lives, I think eventually you would have done it.
00:22:53 --> 00:22:54 Do you disagree with that?
00:22:55 --> 00:22:59 No, I don't disagree with that because I talked about it the previous year. I just didn't do it.
00:23:00 --> 00:23:03 I knew about it. I knew what Hitler—I'd been saying all about Hitler.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 I read all the stuff about Hitler. Oh, God, my two of my uncles fought in the Second World War.
00:23:08 --> 00:23:14 I knew about what what results if you continue to let somebody,
00:23:14 --> 00:23:19 let a leader act the way that do what was happening in this country that day.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:23 So I knew, no, I probably would have done it, but I might have told my children,
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 here's what I'm going to do, and here's what's going to happen to you as a result of it.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 I might have told my father, here's what I'm going to do, and he would have
00:23:30 --> 00:23:31 said, you want to think about that.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:35 If I had told my mother, she would have said, you're not a member of this family
00:23:35 --> 00:23:37 anymore, because after my father died, she kicked me out of the family because
00:23:37 --> 00:23:41 of the exercise because it embarrassed her in that community.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:44 Well, there are only a thousand people in that community, but that's not so bad.
00:23:45 --> 00:23:49 But I have embarrassed that family worldwide because the exercise,
00:23:49 --> 00:23:51 and it's not an experiment.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:54 Please don't call it an experiment. It's an exercise in empathy.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:58 If you have never been through what a whole lot of people in this country go
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 through on a daily basis, you can't possibly understand why they're angry,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:08 why they don't want to try, why they do things that seem to you absolutely unacceptable.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:13 But if you have treated a group of people as if they are unacceptable for all
00:24:13 --> 00:24:16 their lives, then what do you expect them to do?
00:24:16 --> 00:24:21 I think we have set ourselves up to fail, and we're going to fail unless we
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22 change this thing, change it now.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:27 However, we are now in a situation where changing it is going to be up to the
00:24:27 --> 00:24:29 members of the Senate and the House of Representatives.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 And they better get off their polyunsaturated fatty acids and get this done.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:38 They'd better say no to the number one racist in the United States of America,
00:24:38 --> 00:24:40 and they'd better do it this week.
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 Well, we'll see what the Senate does. It looks like the House is capitulated,
00:24:45 --> 00:24:53 but I want to get to the other part about the one race.
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 Because I've had this lady on, her name is Dr. Sheena Mason,
00:24:57 --> 00:25:02 and she's famous for her work, The Theory of Racelessness.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:07 And she provides six tenets or core rules.
00:25:07 --> 00:25:10 So I just want you, we're going to go by one by one.
00:25:10 --> 00:25:15 And all I want you to say is that if you agree or disagree, and then if you
00:25:15 --> 00:25:20 want to explain after I go through the sixth, then, you know, you can go ahead.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:28 So, number one, racism is a socially constructed system of economic and social
00:25:28 --> 00:25:34 oppression that requires the belief in race and the practice of racialization
00:25:34 --> 00:25:38 to reinforce various power imbalances. Agree or disagree?
00:25:39 --> 00:25:44 Disagree. It's antisocial. It's an antisocial construct, not a social construct. Okay.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:51 All right. Two, race is an imaginary part of the socially constructed reality of racism.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:58 It's a lie. It's not imaginary. It's a lie. It's a deliberate lie.
00:25:58 --> 00:26:05 Okay. All right. Three, racialization is the process of applying an inescapable
00:26:05 --> 00:26:14 economic and social class hierarchy to humans that creates or reinforces power imbalances.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:16 It's not inescapable.
00:26:16 --> 00:26:21 It is absolutely escapable. It is absolutely, you can fix it.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:28 Okay. Four, the belief in race and the practice of racialization affect people differently.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:34 These differences serve to uphold the machinery of racism, acting as obstacles
00:26:34 --> 00:26:38 to unification, healing, and reconciliation.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:43 As long as we allow it, that's exactly what can happen. Okay.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:50 Five, the translation of what one means by race, including the presumed absence
00:26:50 --> 00:26:55 of race in any context, can lead to understanding and bridge making.
00:26:55 --> 00:27:01 The Racelessness Translator helps people interpret race into something being
00:27:01 --> 00:27:05 said about the causes and effects of racism, culture, ethnicity,
00:27:05 --> 00:27:09 social class, economic class, or some combination.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:14 The word race, to mean a separate group of people, came out of France in 1580.
00:27:15 --> 00:27:18 Before that, we were all just members of the family of man.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:24 The word race is a constructed idea that was a lie when it began, and it's a lie today.
00:27:25 --> 00:27:32 All right. And then six, racism does not exist everywhere in the same way and can be ended.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:37 And can be what? Ended. Absolutely.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 Absolutely. It had a beginning and it could have an ending if we decided to
00:27:40 --> 00:27:42 end it. And we could decide to end it today.
00:27:43 --> 00:27:47 If we could convince everybody that we are all members of the family of men
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 and we all come in one color group, which is brown.
00:27:50 --> 00:27:56 We are all shades of brown because we all had ancestors who came out of sub-Saharan
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 Africa about 300 years ago.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 And that's the way it is. Whether you like it or not, that's the way it is.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:04 You and I our 30th to 50th cousins.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 Like it or not, we are, because we are all members of the same family.
00:28:10 --> 00:28:16 All right. So now, Dr. Allison Wilts, who's a frequent contributor on Medium,
00:28:16 --> 00:28:21 offered this critique, and it's a critique of your work.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:27 She said, you see, as a diversity consultant, she encourages people to stop
00:28:27 --> 00:28:31 using racial monikers that describe themselves and others.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:36 However, she seems to be missing a key point, that Black people do not experience
00:28:36 --> 00:28:42 racism because they identify as Black, but because society is constructed in
00:28:42 --> 00:28:45 a way where Blackness is treated as a disadvantage.
00:28:46 --> 00:28:52 You cannot erase race with the hope of destroying racism. You have to challenge
00:28:52 --> 00:28:55 racism directly. What's your rebuttal to that?
00:28:55 --> 00:29:04 You have to change the idea of number of races or a number of skin colors or of a race.
00:29:04 --> 00:29:07 We are not a race. We are members of a family.
00:29:07 --> 00:29:12 And that family consists of people of many different shades of brown,
00:29:12 --> 00:29:17 all of whom are considered members of what we call the human race.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:22 There's only one race of people. It's the human race. And it's time to get that idea into our heads.
00:29:22 --> 00:29:25 Now, people who identify as black need
00:29:25 --> 00:29:27 to realize that they were here first and they will
00:29:27 --> 00:29:31 be here last because as we the hole
00:29:31 --> 00:29:34 in the ozone layer gets larger and larger and we
00:29:34 --> 00:29:39 more and more refuse to admit that this this society this kind this world this
00:29:39 --> 00:29:44 earth is governed by what happens with the sunlight as more and more pale faces
00:29:44 --> 00:29:50 get less and less sun less and less melanin in their skins you'll have more
00:29:50 --> 00:29:53 and more more and more cases of melanoma,
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 which is a skin cancer that you get from not having enough melanin in your skin.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:02 And that cancer travels. It doesn't stay on your skin. It travels throughout your body.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:05 More and more people are dying of cancer. White people, so-called white people,
00:30:05 --> 00:30:07 are dying of cancer today.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:10 Eventually, these so-called white folks are going to say to themselves,
00:30:11 --> 00:30:14 if I want my children, my grandchildren, my great-grandchildren to survive,
00:30:14 --> 00:30:20 I'd better find someone who is other than what we call white with whom to reproduce. Yes.
00:30:20 --> 00:30:25 This idea of several different races and of one race, the so-called white race,
00:30:25 --> 00:30:28 being superior is going to kill us.
00:30:28 --> 00:30:33 And that's exactly what's happening right now. We need to realize that this was a lie to begin with.
00:30:33 --> 00:30:39 And if you're going to believe what began in the 1400s, if you're going to take
00:30:39 --> 00:30:45 that as your belief system, then you must also live as they lived in the 1400s.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:48 Men will come to work wearing knee britches and powdered wigs,
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 and women won't go out of the house unless they're wearing a corset that keeps
00:30:53 --> 00:30:55 their waist no more than 18 inches around.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:01 You'll give up all electricity and things that we have since the 1400s.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 If you're going to continue to believe in the idea of race, I challenge you
00:31:06 --> 00:31:07 to live with what you believe.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:11 You don't want to live that way, and you won't live long. So you and Dr.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:18 Mason basically have said that, to rebut what Dr.
00:31:18 --> 00:31:25 Wiltz is saying, you basically say that if you stop identifying by race,
00:31:25 --> 00:31:30 if you stop classifying or government stop classifying people by race,
00:31:30 --> 00:31:36 that inherently racism will end. And I think what Dr.
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 Wiltz is saying, that you've got to deal with the problem of racism,
00:31:41 --> 00:31:48 that mindset, before you get to the humanistic viewpoint.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:51 So you have you have to realize that
00:31:51 --> 00:31:55 the word race was made up in the 1400s in
00:31:55 --> 00:32:01 the 1500s and has been implemented ever since that time by people who consider
00:32:01 --> 00:32:04 themselves better than on the basis of the amount of chemical in their skin
00:32:04 --> 00:32:10 that's ridiculous and if if it were true those so-called white people would
00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 be so smart that they'd say to themselves this is killing us we're going to give up.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:19 And the minute they do that and decide to do that, then the problem will be ended.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:25 Race is an extremely profitable venture.
00:32:26 --> 00:32:32 And I've seen that in the last 10 years more than at any time in my life because I wasn't aware.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:36 But you need to realize that the reason we have the leadership we have right
00:32:36 --> 00:32:40 now is because of race and racism.
00:32:41 --> 00:32:46 Yeah. Well, I won't argue with you on that. I definitely agree on that point.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:48 Are you against reparations?
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 Not if you're going to give them to the First Nations people first.
00:32:54 --> 00:33:02 Okay. So your argument is that if we're going to do reparations,
00:33:03 --> 00:33:10 then natives need to get it first and then the enslaved, generations of the enslaved people.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 Natives were enslaved as fast as we could enslave them, but they got away.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 We weren't successful because they could get into the nearest village and we
00:33:18 --> 00:33:19 couldn't tell which one we had enslaved.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:24 So that didn't begin with bringing blacks from what we call blacks from Africa.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:29 That began when Europeans came to this country and decided that their skin was
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30 lighter than the people who were here.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:35 So they deserve to have this land, to steal this land, to kill the people who
00:33:35 --> 00:33:39 lived on this land, to rape the women who lived on this land and to make it
00:33:39 --> 00:33:41 their own and to put those people on reservations.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:48 And young women, young women who are supposedly First Nations people disappear every year.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:52 Nobody looks for them because, after all, they're just what we call Indians.
00:33:52 --> 00:33:54 They weren't Indians until we told them they were.
00:33:55 --> 00:33:59 No, if you're going to give reparations, give reparations to the people who
00:33:59 --> 00:34:03 own this land first, and then give reparations to those that we brought here as slaves.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:07 But many of the people who brought those people as slaves had come here before
00:34:07 --> 00:34:10 there was slavery for people who were from Africa.
00:34:10 --> 00:34:16 They had come here as people traveling to another land, And they were also instrumental
00:34:16 --> 00:34:19 in bringing people from Africa here as slaves.
00:34:19 --> 00:34:25 So we're all mixed up in this together and we're all equally guilty of letting
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 it happen or making it happen or making money because it's happening.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:34 So what would you, what's your response to the argument that,
00:34:35 --> 00:34:40 you know, the natives were able, or people of the First Nations, as you referred to them,
00:34:41 --> 00:34:47 were given a sort of reparations by designating land for them,
00:34:47 --> 00:34:50 whereas enslaved people.
00:34:51 --> 00:34:58 Black people, in my vernacular, or Africans, were not given,
00:34:58 --> 00:35:01 They didn't follow through on giving them land.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:03 They were promised 40 acres and a mule. They didn't get it.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:11 So how do you respond to that and say, well, at least the Native folks got,
00:35:11 --> 00:35:14 you know, at least they got land designated to them.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:19 Like Oklahoma, for example, over half of the state of Oklahoma is basically
00:35:19 --> 00:35:23 reserved for First Nation people. And?
00:35:26 --> 00:35:30 Yeah. And what does that prove? Does that prove that it's all right to steal
00:35:30 --> 00:35:36 the land from one group of people and then go to another country and buy from
00:35:36 --> 00:35:40 people who were the color of the people that you were going to bring over here as slaves?
00:35:40 --> 00:35:44 Pay them for those people and bring them over here and force them into slave labor?
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48 That makes sense to you. It makes no sense at all to me. But if you can get
00:35:48 --> 00:35:52 away with what we did with the First Nations people, if you can convince yourself
00:35:52 --> 00:35:57 that what we did was kind and generous and accepting and should be accepted,
00:35:58 --> 00:36:02 if you can convince yourself of that, why couldn't you convince yourself of
00:36:02 --> 00:36:05 bringing people from another country and enslaving them for their own good?
00:36:05 --> 00:36:10 And how many times have you heard somebody justify their racist behavior by
00:36:10 --> 00:36:15 saying to that person, to whom they are addressing in a racist way,
00:36:15 --> 00:36:16 well, this is for your own good.
00:36:17 --> 00:36:20 This is not for our own good. We need to fix the whole thing.
00:36:21 --> 00:36:26 First, you have to give reparations given to the first people that we offended.
00:36:27 --> 00:36:30 Okay so how do you deal with
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 the criticism that because you are
00:36:33 --> 00:36:37 classified as white right and
00:36:37 --> 00:36:42 i always used to say light-skinned cousins whenever i refer to people that are
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 identified as white folks i'm melanin let's put it right i'm melanemic okay
00:36:46 --> 00:36:51 it means i don't have much melanin yeah you're melanaceous you have more and
00:36:51 --> 00:36:54 i know people who are melanotic who have a lot of melanin in their skin.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:58 So let's just say melanemic. I'm melanemic. What's your question?
00:36:58 --> 00:37:03 All right. So how do you respond to people that say, because you're melanemic,
00:37:04 --> 00:37:09 it's easier for you to say, well, people that have a lot of melanin or even
00:37:09 --> 00:37:15 more melanin than me shouldn't get reparations right away?
00:37:15 --> 00:37:20 I'm saying they shouldn't get it until we have made reparations to those who were here first.
00:37:21 --> 00:37:25 Okay. All right. All right. So, final question.
00:37:26 --> 00:37:31 Do you think the current political climate in America is the truest representation of this country?
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 And if you don't think it is, how do we fix it going forward?
00:37:37 --> 00:37:42 God, I hope it's not. How awful if what's going on in this country today politically
00:37:42 --> 00:37:46 is what this country deserves and what this whole country wants.
00:37:46 --> 00:37:48 I don't think that's what's going on here.
00:37:48 --> 00:37:53 I think that 42% of the Republican Party is composed of people who are badly
00:37:53 --> 00:37:58 educated, or not educated at all, or who are educated in such a way that they
00:37:58 --> 00:38:02 believed everything that their pale, stale male teachers told them.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:07 And I think until we have offered some true education, I'm an educator.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:09 The word educator comes from the root dup-dus, which means lead,
00:38:10 --> 00:38:13 the prefix e, which means out, the suffix a-t-e, which means the act of,
00:38:13 --> 00:38:15 and suffix o-r, which means one who does.
00:38:15 --> 00:38:19 An educator is one who is engaged in leading people out of ignorance.
00:38:19 --> 00:38:24 That is not what education is doing in this country. It is perpetuating ignorance.
00:38:24 --> 00:38:30 It is telling all the myths, all the lies, all the nonsense that I learned when
00:38:30 --> 00:38:32 I was in school, and I'm 91 years old.
00:38:32 --> 00:38:36 They should not be telling those same silly lies today, but they are.
00:38:36 --> 00:38:37 Columbus didn't discover America.
00:38:37 --> 00:38:41 This country was discovered by people from Africa many, many years,
00:38:41 --> 00:38:45 about 19 years before Columbus was a gleam in his father's eye.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:49 It's time to tell the truth instead of playing the game of educating.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:51 We are not educating people.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:54 We are perpetuating ignorance.
00:38:54 --> 00:39:03 And if that's what your tax money is going for, to continue to miseducate the
00:39:03 --> 00:39:05 American mind, then we've got a problem.
00:39:05 --> 00:39:10 We've got to stop it where it starts. Now, you can't stop in the delivery room,
00:39:10 --> 00:39:15 But you can start in preschool, and you can start telling the truth to students in preschool.
00:39:16 --> 00:39:21 You can start that by changing the map that we're using. Have you seen the Mercator map lately?
00:39:21 --> 00:39:25 With Greenland hanging down the kettle like a great big ripe plum.
00:39:25 --> 00:39:29 Mercator was commissioned by the Pope to make a map that showed the spread of Christianity.
00:39:30 --> 00:39:35 This whole thing began with Christianity, and the Pope perpetuated it with that map.
00:39:35 --> 00:39:39 If you haven't seen the Peter's projection map, get it and take a look at it,
00:39:39 --> 00:39:42 and realize that there's a different way to look at the world.
00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 Children have the right to see the Peter's projection map instead of the Mercator
00:39:46 --> 00:39:50 projection map, because what you do in the classroom determines how that kid
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 is going to see the world when he leaves the classroom.
00:39:52 --> 00:39:54 It's time for us to change the things that they see.
00:39:55 --> 00:40:05 Right, because I remember that the Mercator map and the basic explanation is
00:40:05 --> 00:40:14 just trying to flatten the globe out and the dimensions get thrown off.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:17 What you're saying is a different motivation altogether.
00:40:17 --> 00:40:24 Right. the Pope commissioned Mercator to make a map that showed the spread of Christianity.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:26 So the equator is two-thirds of the way down the map.
00:40:28 --> 00:40:32 Greenland looks as big as South America, but if you read the legend at the bottom
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 of the Mercator map, it says South America is actually nine times larger than
00:40:37 --> 00:40:39 Greenland. Have you read that legend?
00:40:39 --> 00:40:44 People need to look at that, read that legend, and then realize that once again,
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 And Christianity, so-called Christianity, misguided Christianity,
00:40:47 --> 00:40:52 has been telling us how to see the world since the early 1400s.
00:40:53 --> 00:40:56 It's time to stop it. It's time to get over this. It's time to realize that
00:40:56 --> 00:40:59 we've told that lie long enough.
00:40:59 --> 00:41:03 Now we need to tell the truth and see if we can fix what we've messed up.
00:41:04 --> 00:41:07 All right. Well, Jane Elliott, I'm going to have to let you go.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:16 But if people want to get more of your education, if they want to be able to
00:41:16 --> 00:41:20 get you on the show, on their shows or whatever the case may be,
00:41:20 --> 00:41:22 how can people get in touch with you?
00:41:22 --> 00:41:24 Do you have a website? Are you on social media?
00:41:25 --> 00:41:29 Just tell all the folks how they tell the folks how they can reach you.
00:41:29 --> 00:41:33 Would be reach me at jane at jane elliot
00:41:33 --> 00:41:36 dot e-l-i-e-r now
00:41:36 --> 00:41:41 wait a minute i don't think about this how did you reach me so i sent the email
00:41:41 --> 00:41:48 to jane at jane elliot dot com that's fine that's how to do it okay that'll
00:41:48 --> 00:41:55 work for me all right well miss elliot again it's been an honor and a privilege It really is.
00:41:55 --> 00:41:58 And I, you know. Did you learn anything?
00:41:59 --> 00:42:02 I did. I did. Did I tell you something
00:42:02 --> 00:42:04 you didn't know? Did I tell you something you didn't know before?
00:42:05 --> 00:42:12 Well, the main thing is I got to know you a little bit better than even I could research it.
00:42:13 --> 00:42:23 And I also got a reaffirmation that you are a very, very special contribution to our nation.
00:42:24 --> 00:42:31 I think if we had more educators like you, some of us were very fortunate to have at least one or two.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:41 But if if all of our children were exposed to to educators who not only impart knowledge,
00:42:42 --> 00:42:47 but continue to seek knowledge to better the next generation going forward after
00:42:47 --> 00:42:49 ones that they have taught.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:52 We wouldn't be in the situation we're in.
00:42:53 --> 00:42:59 I don't think we could elect somebody like a Donald Trump if we were more educated.
00:42:59 --> 00:43:03 I think you have to remember this thing.
00:43:03 --> 00:43:07 Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. Yes, ma'am.
00:43:08 --> 00:43:12 Actually, that was—and I lived by that because that was our—when I went to Jackson
00:43:12 --> 00:43:15 State University, my freshman year, that was our motto.
00:43:16 --> 00:43:18 That was the motto on the school seal.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:21 And if that had been the model of every elementary junior
00:43:21 --> 00:43:24 and senior high school and college in the united states of
00:43:24 --> 00:43:27 america we would not be in the mess we're in leadership wise
00:43:27 --> 00:43:30 today because the truth is valuable and you
00:43:30 --> 00:43:34 know the difference between truth and fiction my dad would say you know the
00:43:34 --> 00:43:37 difference between right and wrong i'll do the right thing god damn it and i
00:43:37 --> 00:43:40 think he just swore and he'd give me that look i know what i'm doing and i'd
00:43:40 --> 00:43:45 keep my mouth shut i'd listen to him you know the difference between right and
00:43:45 --> 00:43:48 wrong do the right thing that's That is absolutely,
00:43:48 --> 00:43:54 that truth is absolutely essential if you're going to have a government that everyone can trust.
00:43:55 --> 00:44:00 Yeah. All right. Well, Miss Jane, I'm going to let you go on that.
00:44:00 --> 00:44:04 And I thank you again for taking the time out and hopefully,
00:44:05 --> 00:44:07 and I'm going to offer this invitation to you.
00:44:08 --> 00:44:13 Anytime that you want to come back on, just let me know and we'll get you back
00:44:13 --> 00:44:17 on because I extend that to everybody that comes on.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:23 But I really mean that it's really been an honor and a privilege to interact with you this way.
00:44:24 --> 00:44:28 Well, anytime you want me to come on and give me a call. You know how to, okay?
00:44:28 --> 00:44:32 Yes, ma'am. All right, guys. Thanks. We're going to catch y'all on the other
00:44:32 --> 00:44:35 side. We'll be right back.
00:44:33 --> 00:44:52 Music.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:58 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Alexandra Smalls.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:05 Alexandra Smalls is the founder of Chosen Children Birthing and Doula Services.
00:45:05 --> 00:45:10 With eight years of ministry experience, Alexandra has had the privilege of
00:45:10 --> 00:45:12 walking alongside people through
00:45:12 --> 00:45:16 life's journey and during their most important moments in their lives.
00:45:16 --> 00:45:22 As a doula, Alexandra is passionate about connecting with women on their unique
00:45:22 --> 00:45:26 journey by offering support, guidance, and care every step of the way.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:32 Alexandra is deeply committed to ensuring that mothers have a voice over their
00:45:32 --> 00:45:38 bodies and a birthing experience they desire by making fully informed decisions.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:45:42 --> 00:45:46 on this podcast, Alexandra Smalls.
00:45:48 --> 00:45:57 Music.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:01 All right. Alexandra Smalls. How are you doing, sister? You doing good?
00:46:02 --> 00:46:04 I'm doing well, Erik. Thank you. How are you?
00:46:05 --> 00:46:09 I'm doing fine. I am really glad and honored that you took the time out.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:15 And I want to give a shout out to you for helping me with the Suazos, getting them on.
00:46:15 --> 00:46:18 That was a good conversation. Yes.
00:46:19 --> 00:46:22 I enjoyed it as well, listening back. Okay, cool.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:27 All right. So you kind of know how this thing goes. So I'm going to start this
00:46:27 --> 00:46:30 off with a quote, and I want you to give me your thoughts on the quote.
00:46:31 --> 00:46:36 Birth is the epicenter of women's power. What does that quote mean to you?
00:46:37 --> 00:46:41 Yeah, that's so good. Women from
00:46:41 --> 00:46:48 a long time have struggled with power and even been stripped of power.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:54 And so to know that birth is natural, that we were made for it,
00:46:55 --> 00:47:00 created to be able to do it, that our bodies know what to do,
00:47:00 --> 00:47:06 we can step into that power and own that power and know that the fact that life
00:47:06 --> 00:47:11 is coming forth from it is paramount to humanity. Yeah.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:19 All right. Give me a number between one and 20. uh number nine all right number
00:47:19 --> 00:47:26 nine if you're required to be a single issue voter what issue would you choose and why.
00:47:27 --> 00:47:32 That is a good question because there's so many things to choose from.
00:47:33 --> 00:47:40 Single issue. I mean, definitely life. I am pro-life.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:53 And there's a lot that can be combated or there's two sides to everything.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:56 But, you know, God creates life.
00:47:56 --> 00:48:03 And so, you know, just protecting that as well, because we can date back to
00:48:03 --> 00:48:08 different periods in time where that has been a strategy of,
00:48:09 --> 00:48:17 you know, just evil where life has been taken from children in masses. So I would say that.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:21 Okay. So define what exactly is a doula?
00:48:22 --> 00:48:27 Yes. So a doula, it's becoming more known.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:32 It was definitely something that, you know, like women have been having babies
00:48:32 --> 00:48:33 since the beginning of time.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:37 So doulas, midwives date way back.
00:48:37 --> 00:48:40 But there's been a period of time where we kind of lost that,
00:48:40 --> 00:48:43 especially as a society with medical providers and doctors.
00:48:44 --> 00:48:50 But essentially a doula, the word doula originates from the ancient Greek, meaning servant.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:56 So in modern birthing terms, a doula refers to someone who serves during the
00:48:56 --> 00:49:02 whole perinatal period, which is, it can go as, even as.
00:49:03 --> 00:49:08 Pre as, you know, someone trying to get pregnant and needing support from someone.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:12 But the pregnancy part, the labor,
00:49:12 --> 00:49:18 the livery, and even postpartum, just having a companion and a support and someone
00:49:18 --> 00:49:24 who can step in and advocate and provide physical and emotional comfort,
00:49:24 --> 00:49:27 support to both mama and, you know.
00:49:28 --> 00:49:33 Dad, family, to help that family transition into this new season that they're walking into.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:37 So what is the difference between a doula and a midwife?
00:49:38 --> 00:49:47 Yes, definitely a common question. So midwifery is more of a medical provider.
00:49:47 --> 00:49:56 So they are trained on a medical level to, you know, to kind of step in.
00:49:56 --> 00:50:00 It can be a substitute, so to speak, for obstetrician.
00:50:00 --> 00:50:08 So they help just kind of guide the pregnancy and also deliver the baby in a safe way.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:12 A doula is not a medical provider, more so, like I mentioned,
00:50:12 --> 00:50:16 that companion that's there on a physical, emotional,
00:50:17 --> 00:50:20 spiritual support that can help the mom,
00:50:20 --> 00:50:27 the family navigate pregnancy as maybe they're getting information from different
00:50:27 --> 00:50:34 sources to kind of bring in another perspective as well on an informational level.
00:50:36 --> 00:50:45 So a doula is more like a coach and a midwife is more like the backup in case the starter can't play.
00:50:46 --> 00:50:53 Yeah, I mean, midwives are essential for sure. Making sure that baby gets here safely.
00:50:53 --> 00:51:00 And yeah, so the doula is just that definitely that sideline person to come in and yeah,
00:51:00 --> 00:51:04 to be that support in the ear to say,
00:51:04 --> 00:51:07 hey mama you can do this you are strong your body
00:51:07 --> 00:51:09 was made for this your baby's almost here you know
00:51:09 --> 00:51:12 and keeping that environment positive and
00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 safe yeah so you kind
00:51:16 --> 00:51:19 of went through the whole the gamut when you were given a
00:51:19 --> 00:51:27 definition because there are birth doulas postpartum doulas and those who delivered
00:51:27 --> 00:51:33 a full spectrum would you are you a full spectrum doula i would say more so
00:51:33 --> 00:51:36 in the realm of birth and postpartum. Yes.
00:51:37 --> 00:51:44 I definitely have interest in learning more on the lactation side and definitely,
00:51:44 --> 00:51:49 you know, coming in more on an educational side for childbirth, pre-education.
00:51:49 --> 00:51:54 But my focus right now is birth and immediate postpartum.
00:51:54 --> 00:51:59 So you're working your way to a full spectrum, but right now you're birth and
00:51:59 --> 00:52:01 postpartum. Okay. Correct. Yes.
00:52:01 --> 00:52:10 Okay. All right. Now, according to AI, the challenge for Black doulas is that
00:52:10 --> 00:52:14 Black doulas encounter systemic barriers rooted in racism.
00:52:15 --> 00:52:19 Bias, and inequity affecting their ability to provide optimal care and support
00:52:19 --> 00:52:22 for Black birthing individuals and families.
00:52:23 --> 00:52:24 Is AI correct?
00:52:25 --> 00:52:26 Do you have these challenges?
00:52:27 --> 00:52:32 Yeah, I mean, there's challenges in Black communities just on an overall.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:39 Black moms are fighting just to come out of the hospital alive at times,
00:52:39 --> 00:52:44 you know, and I've talked to those women who are like, just make sure that I go home.
00:52:44 --> 00:52:51 So, yes, I even black doulas, like I mentioned earlier,
00:52:51 --> 00:52:56 doulas midwives started out as black women because, you know,
00:52:56 --> 00:53:00 in earlier times they were immigrants, they were slaves, the the.
00:53:01 --> 00:53:08 The grand nannies or the mamas, they were the ones delivering the babies to
00:53:08 --> 00:53:13 slave owners and, you know, slaved women, enslaved women.
00:53:13 --> 00:53:20 And so that started changing in the 20s when obstetrics became more,
00:53:20 --> 00:53:28 came about and actually experimenting on Black women because Black women are
00:53:28 --> 00:53:32 seen as people who are maybe not people,
00:53:32 --> 00:53:36 but who can take pain, who are less than.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:40 And so there was experiments that were done on them.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:47 And so really, as the 1930s came about, obstetricians were the way because these
00:53:47 --> 00:53:52 Black women who were delivering babies, providing that support,
00:53:52 --> 00:53:54 were seen as less than, were seen as dirty.
00:53:54 --> 00:53:57 And so they were not allowed in the hospitals.
00:53:57 --> 00:54:05 And that's kind of how obstetrics became more popularized and became the main way.
00:54:05 --> 00:54:10 So now we're getting back to Black women stepping into that space again,
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 because there were many white women who had taken on those roles.
00:54:14 --> 00:54:20 And so it's becoming more known again, you know, because for a long time,
00:54:20 --> 00:54:22 it was like, what is a doula?
00:54:22 --> 00:54:29 But now that phrase, that title, that role is becoming more common,
00:54:29 --> 00:54:31 more heard of, more sought after.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:35 And so, yeah, there's still going to be a battle as we
00:54:35 --> 00:54:38 are trying to step back into that space and
00:54:38 --> 00:54:41 provide support for our Black
00:54:41 --> 00:54:47 community because many times we are marginalized because of different maybe
00:54:47 --> 00:54:56 socioeconomic status or just preconceived notions about women who are over-sexualized
00:54:56 --> 00:54:59 or poor or don't have, you know,
00:55:00 --> 00:55:06 are not in a marriage situation and they are already marginalized in that area.
00:55:06 --> 00:55:11 So it's definitely the job of the doula to advocate, but, you know,
00:55:11 --> 00:55:16 we can use some advocacy at times too to be able to step into those spaces.
00:55:17 --> 00:55:23 Yeah. So are you running into problems like you, you know, you've got a client
00:55:23 --> 00:55:30 and you're, you know, do you run into some situations where an OBGYN or a.
00:55:31 --> 00:55:38 Hospital, it's kind of like, no, y'all can't come in or, yeah, so you do run into that?
00:55:39 --> 00:55:42 Sure. Yeah, that is a thing. And doulas can get a bad rap.
00:55:43 --> 00:55:48 I mean, it's also our responsibility to make sure that we are,
00:55:48 --> 00:55:50 yes, advocating for the family,
00:55:51 --> 00:55:57 but also working as a birth team and not coming in as, oh, well,
00:55:57 --> 00:55:59 I'm just going to come in and run the show.
00:55:59 --> 00:56:06 It doesn't go like that either, because we want a safe and peaceful space for mom to give birth.
00:56:06 --> 00:56:12 And so that includes, yes, standing our ground, but also working as much as
00:56:12 --> 00:56:18 possible with the nurses, with the doctors, even midwives that work in the hospital
00:56:18 --> 00:56:20 to make sure that there is a cohesive.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:29 Just a cohesive plan and service to the mom and the family during that time.
00:56:30 --> 00:56:34 So, yeah, some doulas have gotten a bad rap because, you know,
00:56:34 --> 00:56:39 maybe stepping in with that attitude of I got to, you know, come in and and
00:56:39 --> 00:56:41 make sure my voice is heard.
00:56:41 --> 00:56:46 So we have to make sure that we are finding that balance of being someone that
00:56:46 --> 00:56:48 is welcomed into that space.
00:56:48 --> 00:56:55 Yeah. So based on your answer in the 20 questions segment, was that your motivation
00:56:55 --> 00:56:59 to be a doula? in some ways.
00:56:59 --> 00:57:04 And you know what? It's funny, funny, not funny, that I didn't even realize
00:57:04 --> 00:57:09 the depths of the challenges, the struggles.
00:57:09 --> 00:57:15 The height of the mortality crisis until I really got into it.
00:57:15 --> 00:57:18 Because for me, it was more so of an interest.
00:57:18 --> 00:57:22 Even from a little girl, I always had interest in pregnancy and birth.
00:57:23 --> 00:57:25 I just wanted to know, like, what's going on in there?
00:57:25 --> 00:57:31 How is this baby forming, you know, like just the awe of life coming together.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:37 So when I was younger, I wanted to be an OBGYN and I went to pre-med.
00:57:37 --> 00:57:43 Well, I took the pre-med route track when I was in college and I got to a certain
00:57:43 --> 00:57:49 point with, you know, biology or chemistry. And I said, you know, maybe this is not for me.
00:57:49 --> 00:57:53 So I took a different route, but it was always something You know,
00:57:53 --> 00:57:57 like, how can I get into that space? How can I get into the NICU?
00:57:57 --> 00:58:00 And, you know, just be a presence. And...
00:58:00 --> 00:58:05 I think that's a big thing, too, is there is power in the ministry of presence.
00:58:05 --> 00:58:14 Because I'm not a mom and I have not given birth, but I can be that support
00:58:14 --> 00:58:18 and that person that brings love, that brings peace,
00:58:18 --> 00:58:26 that brings even, you know, the advocacy piece to make sure that I'm serving well in that area.
00:58:26 --> 00:58:31 So, you know, I took a different route, but it was always something that I wanted to revisit.
00:58:31 --> 00:58:36 And just out of nowhere, I mean, I was talking to God and it just got dropped
00:58:36 --> 00:58:39 into me like, what about a doula?
00:58:39 --> 00:58:43 You know, because you don't have to go back to school to be a medical practitioner.
00:58:43 --> 00:58:48 But there is training, of course, that is required to be a doula.
00:58:48 --> 00:58:55 And even that divine connection with my mentor, she's an amazing woman of God,
00:58:55 --> 00:59:03 a Black woman who is passionate about advocacy and making sure that we have evidence-based care,
00:59:03 --> 00:59:11 that women know that they can be informed on their pregnancy journey and have
00:59:11 --> 00:59:16 rights in their pregnancy and in their labor and delivery.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:24 So being under her tutelage has been just amazing and just something that I
00:59:24 --> 00:59:29 really needed to know, like the importance of doulaship. Yeah.
00:59:30 --> 00:59:34 All right. So we've touched on it a couple of times. Let's get into it a little deeper.
00:59:35 --> 00:59:41 The United States of America has the worst maternal mortality rate among high-income nations.
00:59:41 --> 00:59:49 Black women experienced a maternal mortality rate that was nearly 3.5 times
00:59:49 --> 00:59:51 higher than that of white women.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:56 And Georgia's maternal mortality rate is among the worst in the country,
00:59:56 --> 01:00:04 with 33.9 deaths per 100 live births, including Adriana Smith,
01:00:04 --> 01:00:07 the Georgia woman who was declared brain dead in February,
01:00:07 --> 01:00:11 but is on life support and is currently 22 weeks pregnant.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:16 The Trump administration has cut grants for maternal health studies and research
01:00:16 --> 01:00:19 on health disparities, including the Morehouse School of Medicine,
01:00:20 --> 01:00:24 historically black medical school right here in Atlanta, which received a two
01:00:24 --> 01:00:29 point nine six million dollar grant for a center to improve the health of black
01:00:29 --> 01:00:31 pregnant and postpartum women.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:36 How does your work as a doula contribute to avoiding depression?
01:00:36 --> 01:00:41 Maternal mortality. Yeah. I mean, everything you said, Erik,
01:00:41 --> 01:00:43 unfortunately, is the case.
01:00:43 --> 01:00:48 And it's just unbelievable that a modernized country like the U.S.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:54 Is experiencing that type of mortality in something that should not be a medicalized
01:00:54 --> 01:00:59 event, but should be just a, you know, a natural part of life.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:05 And so those statistics that you gave are true and are sadly the case.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:11 Cesarean procedures, cesarean sections is becoming more of the norm,
01:01:11 --> 01:01:14 not because of need or necessity,
01:01:15 --> 01:01:22 but out of convenience and out of really greed because the hospitals get money from that.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:27 And so it's something that is becoming more normalized.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:33 30 to 33 percent of births end up in cesarean sections.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:36 Same thing with interventions and inductions.
01:01:37 --> 01:01:43 Many times are not necessary, but it happens just out of procedure and out of
01:01:43 --> 01:01:48 convenience. And so as far as what's happening in the government.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:51 It's, yeah, it's a sad state of affairs.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:56 And we do have representation in Congress, like Charles Johnson,
01:01:56 --> 01:02:02 who is, you know, has fought for many years because of his story from his wife, Kira,
01:02:02 --> 01:02:09 who died unnecessarily after giving birth because she didn't feel right.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:14 They were saying, hey, something's not right. Something's not right. They were dismissed.
01:02:14 --> 01:02:18 And she ended up really like bleeding out.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:24 And yeah, she lost her life unnecessarily. He's left now as a single father.
01:02:24 --> 01:02:30 And he's not the only one. He's one of many that haven't had a voice and haven't
01:02:30 --> 01:02:33 had necessarily had their face put out there.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:37 So it's not known. We are, and even in the state of Georgia,
01:02:38 --> 01:02:42 there's a cohort, there's a group of doulas who have made it their business
01:02:42 --> 01:02:49 to go to the Capitol and to hold meetings and to make sure that our voices are heard.
01:02:49 --> 01:02:53 Despite what decisions are coming from the top, we're not stopping.
01:02:53 --> 01:02:59 We're going to keep showing up. We're going to keep stating what we need until
01:02:59 --> 01:03:05 we get it. And, you know, that's what we can do at this point.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:10 And also just make sure that we are informed and that we are helping as many
01:03:10 --> 01:03:15 families as possible to make sure that they come out of their birthing experience
01:03:15 --> 01:03:18 without trauma and with their lives.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:22 Yeah. So it's like...
01:03:24 --> 01:03:34 Your role as a doula is to make sure not only that you're offering support to the mother directly,
01:03:35 --> 01:03:43 but to kind of step in if you see something that that's not quite right or to advocate for,
01:03:43 --> 01:03:49 you know, does this, you know, I don't know if you advocate for medicinal things,
01:03:49 --> 01:03:53 but as far as like, you know, particular drugs they need to take or whatever.
01:03:53 --> 01:04:00 But like maybe their diet, you know, it's like what room they're put in.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:08 I mean, just kind of go through this. Just to say I'm an OBGYN and you've got
01:04:08 --> 01:04:12 some concerns with how I'm dealing with your client.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:17 How would you, you know, just give me some examples of what you would approach me with.
01:04:17 --> 01:04:23 Sure. And it is a fine line. So we don't make any decisions on behalf of a mother
01:04:23 --> 01:04:26 in the midst of pregnancy, in the midst of labor.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:31 I mean, who wants to be asked a bunch of questions when, you know,
01:04:31 --> 01:04:34 you're going through intensive waves, you know, every two minutes.
01:04:34 --> 01:04:39 So that conversation is had ahead of time to make sure mom, doula,
01:04:39 --> 01:04:42 dad, family, we're on the same page.
01:04:42 --> 01:04:48 So that that voice is actually the voice of them and not just what the doula believes.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:53 Because that is a fine line of, it's not about me, it's about what this woman
01:04:53 --> 01:04:57 believes is best for her body.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:02 So along the way, yes, we're not, as I mentioned,
01:05:02 --> 01:05:09 we're not medical practitioners, but it is important to be educated and informed
01:05:09 --> 01:05:16 so that we can speak the language of medicine, that we can understand what's happening in the room.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:22 So when a mom goes to a prenatal appointment with her doctor,
01:05:23 --> 01:05:24 you know, she can bounce off.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:28 Hey, you know, doctor's suggesting this. What do you think?
01:05:28 --> 01:05:32 And so when we are informed on, okay, what's a good blood pressure?
01:05:32 --> 01:05:37 What are safe levels for amniotic fluid?
01:05:38 --> 01:05:44 What procedures make sense as far as like cervical checks and stuff like that.
01:05:44 --> 01:05:49 Because there are some things, like I said, in the medical system that are procedural,
01:05:49 --> 01:05:52 but not necessarily necessary.
01:05:52 --> 01:05:58 So cervical checks don't need to happen. We can know where a woman is in her
01:05:58 --> 01:06:00 labor just by how it's progressing.
01:06:00 --> 01:06:04 And so a lot of times cervical checks happen,
01:06:05 --> 01:06:09 happen frequently and they don't have to. And women may not know that.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:15 They just yield to what the nurse, the doctor is suggesting.
01:06:15 --> 01:06:20 But unless the baby is in some kind of distress, unless there's a medical emergency,
01:06:20 --> 01:06:24 there are things like that that can be declined.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:31 And so that's important for families to know that they have the right to not consent.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:36 And so even when they sign a consent form when checking in, that does not mean
01:06:36 --> 01:06:37 you consent to everything.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:41 That means you have the right to give or not give your consent.
01:06:42 --> 01:06:48 And I think that's something that really needs to be reiterated so that families
01:06:48 --> 01:06:50 know, hey, I have a choice in this.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:54 I can say, I don't feel comfortable with that. I don't want that,
01:06:54 --> 01:06:59 especially if it's not, you know, the life of the mom or baby in jeopardy. Yeah.
01:07:00 --> 01:07:09 So you've introduced a term to me that I was not familiar with before called obstetric violence.
01:07:09 --> 01:07:15 So I think you gave some examples of that, but clearly define what obstetric violence is.
01:07:15 --> 01:07:17 How much of an impact does it
01:07:17 --> 01:07:23 have on Black women and what roles do doulas play in mitigating it. Yes.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:33 Obstetric violence does happen. And so when a medical provider does something that is not,
01:07:34 --> 01:07:37 that consent was not given, they just take it upon themselves,
01:07:37 --> 01:07:40 that is essentially assault.
01:07:40 --> 01:07:45 So episiotomies is one thing that was very common.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:52 And what that is, is the cutting of the perineal skin because supposedly that's needed.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:55 We have to cut so that baby has room to come out.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:02 That is not evidence-based because our bodies are made to allow the baby to come out.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:06 It may not be in their timing, and that's a big thing too.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:10 You know, we want to rush the process, but the baby is going to come out.
01:08:11 --> 01:08:16 And so when a woman is cut without her consent, that is violence.
01:08:16 --> 01:08:21 When a woman has a cervical check without her consent, that is violence.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:27 When a woman goes in and maybe has a cervical check and the water bag is broken
01:08:27 --> 01:08:32 while the medical provider is in there, that is violence.
01:08:32 --> 01:08:40 Violence. So these are things where it's just taken upon themselves to go ahead
01:08:40 --> 01:08:44 and perform medical procedures that we're not consented to.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:51 Every move that one makes should be requested, hey, I'm touching your leg.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:54 Can I touch your leg here? Can I do this? Can I do that?
01:08:54 --> 01:08:57 The woman should know what's happening before it happens.
01:08:58 --> 01:09:05 Yeah. So you had mentioned about C-sections, the cesareans.
01:09:06 --> 01:09:12 And, you know, in my life, I was born and my mom had to get a C-section.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:15 And I think that's what discouraged her for having more kids, to be honest.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:20 But then my child was born with a C-section.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:26 But the reason why, you know, our OBGYN basically said on the due date,
01:09:26 --> 01:09:29 because I was like me, I was 15 minutes early.
01:09:30 --> 01:09:33 So I was a huge child, right?
01:09:33 --> 01:09:40 And so when my child came, the C-section was planned because the doctor,
01:09:41 --> 01:09:44 the due date coincided with the doctor's vacation.
01:09:46 --> 01:09:47 So it was like,
01:09:48 --> 01:09:53 For him to be there, they had to do the C-section, which was like maybe a couple
01:09:53 --> 01:09:55 of days earlier than the due date.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:02 Right. But in both of those situations with my mom and my child's mother,
01:10:02 --> 01:10:05 they were informed. They knew this was getting ready to happen.
01:10:06 --> 01:10:12 Sure. And you're saying that more times than not, especially with Black women,
01:10:12 --> 01:10:18 that they're not informed. It's just like, we're going to do this and nobody knows.
01:10:18 --> 01:10:25 Or even the case like if they don't ask if you want epidural or not,
01:10:26 --> 01:10:30 doctors tend to just, you're basically saying there are doctors,
01:10:30 --> 01:10:34 there's OBGYNs, they just kind of do what they think is best and don't talk
01:10:34 --> 01:10:36 to the patient at all. Sure.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:42 Yeah. In some instances, like the examples that I gave about the episiotomy
01:10:42 --> 01:10:45 and those things have happened without even mentioning.
01:10:45 --> 01:10:51 But like with a C-section, with certain inductions, interventions,
01:10:51 --> 01:10:56 yeah, they may say, hey, this is what we need to do. But that's exactly what they say.
01:10:56 --> 01:11:00 Hey, this is what we need to do. This is what you're pretty much going to do.
01:11:00 --> 01:11:08 And so because essentially there is a power dynamic because here this doctor
01:11:08 --> 01:11:13 or nurse, I mean, they're supposed to know more, right? Than what we know as a common person.
01:11:14 --> 01:11:18 So it's like, okay, well, whatever you say is I need to do, I'm going to do.
01:11:19 --> 01:11:22 Why? Because, oh, well, if we don't, your baby's going to die.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:28 You know, that is a scare tactic that does come up. Oh, well,
01:11:28 --> 01:11:29 if we don't do this, your baby's going to die.
01:11:30 --> 01:11:33 And so it's like, well, of course, I don't want my baby to die.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:37 So let's do it. But it's not necessarily something that has to happen.
01:11:38 --> 01:11:42 If a woman wants to hold off on an epidural, then a nurse doesn't need to ask
01:11:42 --> 01:11:44 every five minutes if they want the epidural.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:52 If a cesarean section is scheduled simply because a doctor is going out of town,
01:11:52 --> 01:11:55 that's based on the doctor's convenience, not the baby's.
01:11:56 --> 01:12:00 So a mom can agree, okay, we're going to do the cesarean section,
01:12:00 --> 01:12:03 but she may not know that there are alternatives.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:08 And I think that's the biggest thing when a plan or a procedure or a treatment
01:12:08 --> 01:12:13 or something is proposed, she may not know that there are alternatives.
01:12:13 --> 01:12:19 And so one, I guess, kind of rule of thumb that we share with moms,
01:12:19 --> 01:12:22 dads, as they are navigating this, is to use brain.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:29 So whenever we're navigating, okay, what's my next move? What are the benefits of this?
01:12:29 --> 01:12:33 What are the risks? What are the alternatives?
01:12:34 --> 01:12:40 What is my intuition telling me? And do I want to say no to this? So that's brain.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:45 And so we can ask those questions. We should ask these questions.
01:12:45 --> 01:12:48 What are the benefits if I do this or don't do this?
01:12:48 --> 01:12:53 What are the risks if I do or don't do this? And what are my other options? And that's okay.
01:12:54 --> 01:12:57 Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty, that's pretty slick. I did that.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:01 What can be done? Let's close it out this way.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:07 What can be done public policy-wise to further lessen the maternal mortality
01:13:07 --> 01:13:11 rate and support the work of doulas?
01:13:11 --> 01:13:14 Okay. Sorry. Repeat the first part.
01:13:15 --> 01:13:21 What can be done public policy-wise to further lessen the maternal mortality
01:13:21 --> 01:13:23 rate and support the work of doulas?
01:13:24 --> 01:13:27 Yeah, that is a great question.
01:13:27 --> 01:13:31 Continue to use our voices for sure.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:35 Like I mentioned, you know, we have made connections in the Capitol.
01:13:36 --> 01:13:42 We have made trips to the Capitol. There are representatives in Congress who are fighting for this.
01:13:42 --> 01:13:46 And so when things happen, like you mentioned, that executive orders that come
01:13:46 --> 01:13:50 that can discourage us to feel like we are making no ground.
01:13:51 --> 01:13:56 We can continue to use our voice because that is a tactic to silence us,
01:13:56 --> 01:13:58 to feel like, well, what is the point?
01:13:58 --> 01:14:04 In the civil rights, I mean, how did we gain ground by continuing to push through?
01:14:04 --> 01:14:10 And so, you know, I don't know that anything new needs to be drummed up,
01:14:10 --> 01:14:14 but just to say, hey, we're going to continue to push this through despite the
01:14:14 --> 01:14:19 obstacles, despite the no's, despite the, you know.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:24 Feeling like we're being ignored, but to know that our lives matter enough to
01:14:24 --> 01:14:26 keep using our voice. Yeah.
01:14:27 --> 01:14:32 Yeah. So, Alexandra Smalls, I greatly appreciate you coming on.
01:14:32 --> 01:14:38 I think this is an issue that we are aware of it.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:43 And I know that when I was a legislator, it was something that,
01:14:43 --> 01:14:46 you know, I and others in the Black Caucus was dealing with.
01:14:47 --> 01:14:54 But, you know, it doesn't make sense to me that the nation that is supposed
01:14:54 --> 01:14:59 to be the wealthiest, that is supposed to be the most powerful,
01:14:59 --> 01:15:08 is also the nation where women are in jeopardy of dying if they give birth. It doesn't correlate.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:15 And so to have you and others like you out there trying to help,
01:15:15 --> 01:15:20 even if it's just in a role where it's like you're advising others,
01:15:21 --> 01:15:25 hey, look, this is what you need to look out for and all this kind of stuff.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:31 And just, you know, just daily or however frequently you talk to them,
01:15:31 --> 01:15:36 right, just encouraging them and trying to guide them in the right direction,
01:15:36 --> 01:15:37 I think, is an incredible service.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:43 So I greatly appreciate you doing that. And I greatly appreciate you using your
01:15:43 --> 01:15:47 position as a voice to deal with this issue.
01:15:47 --> 01:15:52 And finally, I greatly appreciate you coming on the podcast and talking about
01:15:52 --> 01:15:57 it. If people want to get more information from you concerning that,
01:15:57 --> 01:15:59 how can they get in touch with you?
01:16:00 --> 01:16:03 Sure, I'll share that. But if I could just make one more comment,
01:16:03 --> 01:16:08 I'd just like to say that it can feel like a huge issue.
01:16:08 --> 01:16:14 A huge battle, a huge obstacle that we're facing. And so how do you eat an elephant
01:16:14 --> 01:16:15 one bite at a time, right?
01:16:15 --> 01:16:22 And so as we recognize that it requires individual change, it requires institutional
01:16:22 --> 01:16:27 change, it requires culture change, all we can do is use the power of one.
01:16:28 --> 01:16:33 And every person that I encounter, if I can make a difference in that person's
01:16:33 --> 01:16:37 life, then I have move the needle just a little bit.
01:16:37 --> 01:16:41 So I think if we all band together and do our part in that way,
01:16:41 --> 01:16:43 then change will come about.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:49 So yes, I can be found on my website, chosenchildrendoulaservices.com and also
01:16:49 --> 01:16:54 Instagram at chosenchildren underscore doula.
01:16:54 --> 01:17:00 Okay. All right. Well, again, Alexandra, I appreciate you coming on.
01:17:00 --> 01:17:06 And just like I tell all my guests anytime you want to come back on if there's
01:17:06 --> 01:17:10 some issues that you want to address because there's some other stuff you do
01:17:10 --> 01:17:12 too but we wanted to talk strictly about,
01:17:12 --> 01:17:16 your work as a doula this time so if there's anything that you want to come
01:17:16 --> 01:17:20 back on and talk about feel free to do that you have an open invitation to come
01:17:20 --> 01:17:26 so i appreciate that thank you for having me Erik i i love what you do with
01:17:26 --> 01:17:31 your podcast it makes a difference well thank you so much all right guys and
01:17:31 --> 01:17:32 we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:17:33 --> 01:17:44 Music.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:52 All right, and we are back. So again, I want to thank Jane Elliott and Alexandra
01:17:52 --> 01:17:54 Smalls for coming on the program.
01:17:54 --> 01:17:59 You know, it's amazing how this whole thing works.
01:18:00 --> 01:18:05 Miss Elliott, as you have you heard through the interview, I have an incredible
01:18:05 --> 01:18:09 amount of respect for her and the work that she has done and the courage that
01:18:09 --> 01:18:12 she has exhibited in doing her work.
01:18:13 --> 01:18:16 And so she is literally a national treasure.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:21 And for her to just respond to me, just reaching out and saying,
01:18:21 --> 01:18:22 hey, I'd like for you to be on.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:25 And she came on.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:31 Again, that was a humbling experience. And I'm really, really honored that she came on.
01:18:32 --> 01:18:37 And then Ms. Smalls, you know, it was a chance meeting that I met her.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:43 And out of that meeting, I've basically gotten two shows out of that.
01:18:44 --> 01:18:49 And, you know, her work as far as being a doula was very fascinating to me,
01:18:50 --> 01:18:56 and especially considering maternal mortality, because that's an issue that
01:18:56 --> 01:19:01 we have been dealing with in this country, especially in the black community for a long, long time.
01:19:03 --> 01:19:04 And, you.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:11 It's high time that we prioritize that, you know, for all the rhetoric that's
01:19:11 --> 01:19:15 out there about life and, you
01:19:15 --> 01:19:20 know, raising children or indoctrinating children, all this other stuff.
01:19:22 --> 01:19:26 The mamas have to live, right? The mamas have to live.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:34 And so, you know, I'm glad that Alexandra found a calling to do that.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:41 And that there's others like her. And so it was an honor to highlight her and
01:19:41 --> 01:19:42 the work that she's doing.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:48 So, and I hope that y'all as the listening audience appreciates that.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:54 But I want to close out and I don't know how long this rant's going to be because
01:19:54 --> 01:19:58 mostly, you know, I don't script anything. I just kind of speak from the top
01:19:58 --> 01:20:03 of my head and hopefully it's coherent to you all.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:08 As I ramble, but I'm, I'm really pissed off.
01:20:09 --> 01:20:10 And I,
01:20:11 --> 01:20:19 And it's because, you know, when I was in college, one of the big issues that
01:20:19 --> 01:20:22 was happening was divestiture, right?
01:20:22 --> 01:20:29 And, you know, we kind of touched on a little bit last episode about the Afrikaners
01:20:29 --> 01:20:33 being given privilege, right?
01:20:35 --> 01:20:41 But to watch what went on in the White House the other day,
01:20:41 --> 01:20:46 where the president of South Africa showed up with his delegation,
01:20:46 --> 01:20:53 and it was a delegation that had white folks and black folks, or as Ms.
01:20:53 --> 01:20:57 Elliott would say, light-skinned and dark-skinned South Africans, right?
01:20:58 --> 01:21:04 You know, trying to explain to the president that all this stuff and what really
01:21:04 --> 01:21:12 made it, you know, his whole job was to try to embarrass this black man on a national stage.
01:21:12 --> 01:21:16 That was his whole purpose. And Elon Musk sticking his face in there doesn't
01:21:16 --> 01:21:18 make it any better. Right.
01:21:18 --> 01:21:24 But you wanted to, you wanted to put this man in the crosshairs because of ignorance
01:21:24 --> 01:21:26 that you fell into a trap.
01:21:26 --> 01:21:32 And this is something that he's been pushing since his first term as president.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:39 It didn't get a whole lot of attention because of the impeachments and the Ukraine
01:21:39 --> 01:21:43 situation, you know, the collusion and all that stuff.
01:21:44 --> 01:21:51 So he didn't really get a chance to do anything he wanted to do concerning South
01:21:51 --> 01:21:57 Africa. But he was touting that stuff on his true social or Twitter account or whatever.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:01 And so now, now he's acting on it.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:07 And so we're finding out that the video that he showed, the one video he showed
01:22:07 --> 01:22:11 with all the crosses was a protest, not an actual gravesite.
01:22:12 --> 01:22:19 Right. And it was talking about black farmers who had gotten killed along with white farmers.
01:22:19 --> 01:22:24 Right. So it was a memorial to all the farmers, not just the white ones.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:30 It was a memorial to all the farmers who had been killed in South Africa. Right.
01:22:30 --> 01:22:36 So there was that. Then he showed the video of the radical black politicians
01:22:36 --> 01:22:41 in South Africa and had to be reminded that they are members of parliament,
01:22:41 --> 01:22:44 but they are in the minority and they are not in coalition.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:49 They're not part of the coalition government that's running things that,
01:22:49 --> 01:22:55 you know, no farmer has been kicked out of their land. They've been compensated.
01:22:56 --> 01:23:02 You know, it's, it's almost like they have an imminent, imminent domain process
01:23:02 --> 01:23:07 to try to get black farmers or more black farmers. Right.
01:23:09 --> 01:23:15 And, And then the pictures he showed, you know, these were pictures,
01:23:16 --> 01:23:17 some of the pictures he showed.
01:23:17 --> 01:23:20 There were some pictures that were actually farmers who had been killed.
01:23:21 --> 01:23:24 But as the president of South Africa said, that's crime.
01:23:24 --> 01:23:29 That's not government-sanctioned genocide, right?
01:23:30 --> 01:23:35 That's just an unfortunate crime situation. And he even made an appeal to the
01:23:35 --> 01:23:39 president to say, hey, look, I may not have a jet to offer you, But we need your help.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:44 You know, if whatever assistance you can give us to help us deal with our crime
01:23:44 --> 01:23:51 problem, because unfortunately, South Africa has one of the highest murder rates in the world.
01:23:53 --> 01:23:57 You know, if it wasn't for the United States, they would probably be the top.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:02 Now, their murder rate is nothing like ours. There's a great disparity,
01:24:02 --> 01:24:04 but it is a problem there.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:08 And they are trying to address it. Any appeal to the president for assistance?
01:24:09 --> 01:24:16 President Trump for assistance. So what kicked it all off, you know, it was already hanging.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:22 But then he went into this reporter, Peter Alexander, who does not need me to defend him in any way.
01:24:22 --> 01:24:25 Peter has been doing this thing for a long time.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:29 He has covered a lot of presidents. I think he used to cover Congress before
01:24:29 --> 01:24:31 he started doing the White House beat.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:36 And so, you know, Peter asked him a question dealing with the planes,
01:24:36 --> 01:24:44 the plane, because the plane actually arrived in the United States, the Qatar plane.
01:24:45 --> 01:24:49 As I'm learning from Waj Ali and other folks how to properly pronounce the name of the country.
01:24:50 --> 01:24:57 And I'll probably just stay with the anglicized version and say Qatar instead
01:24:57 --> 01:25:03 of trying to say the Arabic version. but the plane finally arrived.
01:25:04 --> 01:25:08 So Peter is asking about the plane. He goes into this rant about how stupid
01:25:08 --> 01:25:10 he is and how disgusting he is and all this stuff.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:16 But you're talking to a president of another country and you don't have all
01:25:16 --> 01:25:18 the facts and you're trying to embarrass him.
01:25:18 --> 01:25:25 So if you think Peter is uninformed about factual stuff, what does that make
01:25:25 --> 01:25:32 you when you're trying to embarrass a world leader off lies and inaccurate information.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:38 If Peter is disgusting, what does that make you? Right? The arrogance of the
01:25:38 --> 01:25:39 stupidity is what bothers me.
01:25:40 --> 01:25:44 It's one thing to not know something because a lot of people that don't know
01:25:44 --> 01:25:45 stuff don't say nothing.
01:25:45 --> 01:25:56 Right? But it's those people who are ignorant, who are loud and brash and just the sheer arrogance.
01:25:56 --> 01:25:59 I just, oh my God, that just drives me nuts.
01:25:59 --> 01:26:04 When somebody is proud of their stupidity, who basks in it, who thinks that
01:26:04 --> 01:26:09 we should embrace the stupidity along with them, that's insulting to me.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:12 Now, it's,
01:26:13 --> 01:26:17 Again, if it was anything else, I'd be offended.
01:26:18 --> 01:26:21 I'm just offended by the arrogance and stupidity, period.
01:26:21 --> 01:26:27 But then you add on, you compound it with you trying to embarrass African leaders.
01:26:27 --> 01:26:34 A country where when I was born, the majority of the population was being subjugated.
01:26:35 --> 01:26:41 Seven percent of the population was trying to tell the other 93 that they didn't have any rights.
01:26:42 --> 01:26:50 Right. And so, you know, I'm just saying, we have to do better.
01:26:51 --> 01:26:58 We cannot allow this to continue. Now, we're stuck with this for the next four years.
01:26:58 --> 01:27:04 But please, please, please, America, let's not go down this route again. in.
01:27:05 --> 01:27:10 Let's not have an arrogant buffoon in the White House anymore. Let's stop that.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:15 Let's stop rewarding stupidity. Let's stop rewarding grandstanding.
01:27:15 --> 01:27:20 Let's stop rewarding crassness, right?
01:27:20 --> 01:27:24 Let's start elevating people that are worthy of it. We used to do that.
01:27:25 --> 01:27:30 We used to vote for people that at least gave the appearance that they understood
01:27:30 --> 01:27:33 the magnitude of the positions they were running for.
01:27:34 --> 01:27:37 And they carried themselves with some decorum.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:43 But now it's Katie bar the door. And that is just infuriating to me.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:47 That just drives me nuts. If I was just an average citizen, it'd be,
01:27:48 --> 01:27:49 you know, it'd drive me nuts.
01:27:49 --> 01:27:53 But as somebody who has actually gone through those steps, who has run for office,
01:27:53 --> 01:27:57 who's been elected, who's taken an oath, who's made votes on issues,
01:27:58 --> 01:28:01 on budgets, to see how foolish these people are?
01:28:02 --> 01:28:09 You know, I just remember I used to lose my temper and I had to apologize for that and all that.
01:28:09 --> 01:28:14 But it was never like on the floor doing that. Well, not on a mic.
01:28:15 --> 01:28:21 You know what I'm saying? It was like I remember I was asking legitimate questions
01:28:21 --> 01:28:24 to a representative who's no longer with us.
01:28:25 --> 01:28:28 And she she broke down and started crying.
01:28:29 --> 01:28:34 I didn't say anything mean to her. I was just really hitting her with some hard questions.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:40 And so I had to apologize for that because I'm not trying to make you feel bad
01:28:40 --> 01:28:43 enough where you've got to cry. You understand what I'm saying?
01:28:44 --> 01:28:49 I mean, the bill you were presenting was obviously was pretty bad.
01:28:50 --> 01:28:54 And I was opposed to it. But it wasn't meant to be personal.
01:28:55 --> 01:28:58 Right. So I apologize for making her cry.
01:28:59 --> 01:29:03 And, you know, and then we just went on about our business.
01:29:04 --> 01:29:09 You know, it was just one of those things that happened. But it's like now our
01:29:09 --> 01:29:13 politics is centered around, let's see how many we can make cry.
01:29:13 --> 01:29:18 Right. Let's see how many we can get them to lose their lunch.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:22 You know, just to go crazy. Who can I infuriate today?
01:29:23 --> 01:29:29 Right. That's not public policy. That's not public decorum. That's not civil
01:29:29 --> 01:29:31 discourse. That's foolishness.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:37 You don't invite a world leader into the White House and try to embarrass them.
01:29:37 --> 01:29:43 You don't try to bully them. Look, America is what it is.
01:29:43 --> 01:29:47 So when people show up, they already know they're dealing with the United States of America.
01:29:48 --> 01:29:50 It's a given. They understand that.
01:29:52 --> 01:29:58 So your job is to persuade them to go along with the United States position.
01:29:59 --> 01:30:01 There are sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't.
01:30:01 --> 01:30:05 But I tell you what's not going to work, trying to make them look foolish.
01:30:06 --> 01:30:13 And then to top it off, you look foolish in the process because that's embarrassing to us.
01:30:14 --> 01:30:17 It's one thing to talk tough, but if you ain't got all the facts,
01:30:17 --> 01:30:22 brother, and you're trying to embarrass somebody, well, that's a reflection
01:30:22 --> 01:30:25 on us because we, the citizens, voted for you.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:30 It wasn't all of us, right? But you won the election.
01:30:30 --> 01:30:35 So it was a reflection on all of us because you are the sitting president.
01:30:37 --> 01:30:41 And, you know, some way, somehow, people are patting you on the back and saying,
01:30:41 --> 01:30:43 way to get him, Mr. President, and all that stuff.
01:30:43 --> 01:30:47 It's not a gotcha if you ain't got the facts right.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:50 It's not a gotcha if you look stupid.
01:30:51 --> 01:30:58 It's not. So I really hope and pray. I don't know what it's going to take.
01:30:58 --> 01:31:01 The man's been shot at. No contrition.
01:31:02 --> 01:31:06 The man nearly died of COVID. No contrition.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:11 You know, he's been through a lot personally.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:21 No contrition. So I don't know what it would take. All I know is if we have
01:31:21 --> 01:31:24 elections from this point forward, we've got to do better.
01:31:25 --> 01:31:30 We cannot continue to reward this kind of leadership anymore.
01:31:32 --> 01:31:38 And, bro, you got to show some respect because those people got elected in their
01:31:38 --> 01:31:41 country just like you got elected in this one.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:45 Show some respect. Don't try to embarrass people.
01:31:46 --> 01:31:52 Just, you know, do like folks are supposed to do and try to work through your differences.
01:31:53 --> 01:31:54 That's what they call diplomacy.
01:31:55 --> 01:32:01 Do that. Don't be a jackass. Be a statesman. That's all I'm asking.
01:32:03 --> 01:32:09 And to close it out, just remember that people died for you to have that privilege.
01:32:10 --> 01:32:14 That's, again, why we're having this Memorial Day commemoration.
01:32:15 --> 01:32:20 People died for us from Crispus Attucks all the way down to the last soldier
01:32:20 --> 01:32:22 in the last battle we just had.
01:32:23 --> 01:32:31 They died for us to be free, to have elections, to elect somebody to the position you're in.
01:32:31 --> 01:32:36 Carry that weight with you before you decide you want to embarrass or bully somebody.
01:32:37 --> 01:32:40 I don't know what it's going to take to get it to sink into your head,
01:32:40 --> 01:32:44 but let me ask the American people, especially my listeners,
01:32:46 --> 01:32:49 and I'm pretty sure most of my listeners didn't support them,
01:32:49 --> 01:32:53 but those who did, let's do better.
01:32:53 --> 01:33:00 Let's elect an American leader that understands the significance and the importance
01:33:00 --> 01:33:06 of that position and the sacrifices that were made for that person to be there.
01:33:07 --> 01:33:10 All right, guys, thank y'all for listening. Until next time.
01:33:13 --> 01:33:58 Music.