Host Erik Fleming interviews two Atlanta-area changemakers: Connie Di Cicco on environmental advocacy, data center impacts, and electoral engagement, and Sia Henry on restorative justice, psychedelic-assisted healing, and the Hood Exchange travel program for formerly incarcerated Black youth.
This episode explores community power, policy challenges, and practical efforts to expand imagination, healing, and civic participation.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello. Welcome to another moment with Eric Fleming. I am your host, Eric Fleming.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:12 So today I have two young ladies on, Connie Di Cicco and Sia Henry.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:20 Connie is in advocacy around, I guess you would say, environmental issues,
00:02:21 --> 00:02:26 and Sia is an advocate around restorative justice issues.
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 So, you know, these are two, like I said, young ladies that are really doing
00:02:33 --> 00:02:38 good work in their communities and wanted to uplift them and to talk about their
00:02:38 --> 00:02:40 journey, how they got there,
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 and what exactly, you know, they're doing in their work.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 So I hope that you will enjoy those interviews.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:53 As always, we are asking for support.
00:02:54 --> 00:03:00 So if you would go to www.momenterik.com and do that, we greatly appreciate it.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 And, you know, like I said, we're going to make some changes.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:14 So over the next few episodes, and maybe just me on, I was trying to get schedules
00:03:14 --> 00:03:16 readjusted and all that.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:20 But, you know, until then, I hope you continue to listen to the podcast,
00:03:20 --> 00:03:26 continue to enjoy what you're hearing, and just, you know, just your feedback is welcome.
00:03:26 --> 00:03:32 And I'll get into some other stuff later on, but let's go ahead and kick this program off.
00:03:32 --> 00:03:37 And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:51 Thanks, Erik. The U.S. Supreme Court limited a federal law banning drug users from owning firearms,
00:03:51 --> 00:03:55 allowed the Trump administration to revoke temporary protected status for hundreds
00:03:55 --> 00:04:00 of thousands of Haitian and Syrian immigrants, permitted federal government
00:04:00 --> 00:04:04 officials to turn away asylum seekers at U.S.-Mexico border crossings,
00:04:04 --> 00:04:09 and ruled that a Rastafarian man could not sue individual Louisiana prison officials
00:04:09 --> 00:04:15 for monetary damages after guards forcibly shaved him in violation of his religious beliefs.
00:04:16 --> 00:04:20 Congress passed a bipartisan housing bill aimed at boosting affordable housing
00:04:20 --> 00:04:23 supply, but President Trump refused to sign it.
00:04:24 --> 00:04:29 The U.S. Senate passed a House-authored War Powers Resolution directing President
00:04:29 --> 00:04:32 Trump to halt military action against Iran.
00:04:32 --> 00:04:37 British Prime Minister Keir Starmer announced he will step down following an
00:04:37 --> 00:04:39 internal Labor Party rebellion.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:43 Two consecutive severe earthquakes struck near Caracas, Venezuela,
00:04:43 --> 00:04:48 with models projecting the death toll could eventually exceed 10.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 New York City Mayor Zoran Mamdani significantly consolidated his political power
00:04:54 --> 00:05:00 after three Democratic Socialist candidates he endorsed won major Democratic primary upsets.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:05 Kate Conley won the Democratic nomination to challenge Republican Representative
00:05:05 --> 00:05:09 Mike Lawler in New York's 17th Congressional District.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:15 State Delegate Adrian Boafo won a crowded Democratic primary to succeed retiring
00:05:15 --> 00:05:19 Representative Steny Hoyer in Maryland's 5th Congressional District.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 Maine Democrats nominated Matthew Dunlap to face Republican Paul LePage for
00:05:25 --> 00:05:28 an open, highly competitive congressional seat.
00:05:29 --> 00:05:34 A U.S. appeals court ruled that Ohio can enforce a law requiring social media
00:05:34 --> 00:05:39 companies to obtain parental consent for users under the age of 16.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 12 people were hospitalized following a mass shooting perpetrated by occupants
00:05:44 --> 00:05:47 of an SUV on a Chicago street.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:53 And former Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan died at the age of 100.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:57 I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:10 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. Now it's time for my guest, Connie Di Cicco.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:15 Connie Di Cicco is a native Georgian who started her career with a master's in
00:06:15 --> 00:06:17 filmmaking from Florida State University.
00:06:17 --> 00:06:19 After working as director of
00:06:19 --> 00:06:24 programming for a full-frame documentary film festival in North Carolina,
00:06:25 --> 00:06:29 she moved back to Georgia and eventually entered politics, starting with grassroots
00:06:29 --> 00:06:35 volunteering and then working as chief of staff for several members of the Georgia General Assembly.
00:06:36 --> 00:06:40 She ran for office in 2020 and worked as a campaign consultant afterwards.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:45 After two years with Georgia Conservation Voters as their political director,
00:06:45 --> 00:06:49 Connie now serves as the political campaign director for the Athena Coalition,
00:06:50 --> 00:06:55 where she now spends her days moving legislation, wrangling elected officials,
00:06:55 --> 00:06:59 and trying to make Georgia and America a little greener and a lot better.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:02 When she's not doing that, you'll find her baking something delicious,
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 tending to her bees, or watching movies like it's her second job.
00:07:08 --> 00:07:12 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:07:12 --> 00:07:15 on this podcast, Connie Di Cicco.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:30 All right. Connie Di Cicco, how you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:07:30 --> 00:07:33 I'm well, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here with you.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:37 Well, it was an honor for me to have you on as a guest.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:44 And I've known that since we talked about you coming on, there's been some changes
00:07:44 --> 00:07:46 in your life, not major, but some changes.
00:07:47 --> 00:07:50 So I appreciate the fact, because a lot of times when people go through those
00:07:50 --> 00:07:55 changes, like, Eric, I got to get it readjusted and all that stuff and they
00:07:55 --> 00:07:58 don't come. But the fact that you honored your commitment, I am really,
00:07:58 --> 00:08:00 really, really, really pleased about that.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:05 All right. So let's go ahead and get this started. What I normally do kind of
00:08:05 --> 00:08:11 is I do a couple of icebreaker exercises to kind of get the conversation going. Okay.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:17 So the first one is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:23 And the The quote is, something doesn't need to affect me, and something shouldn't
00:08:23 --> 00:08:28 have to affect me for me to understand when there is a problem that needs to
00:08:28 --> 00:08:30 be addressed and changed.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:33 Okay. So.
00:08:35 --> 00:08:46 A lot of times, you can feel, and at least I do, into it when you are needed.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:49 And this has been a little bit of a learned response for me.
00:08:51 --> 00:08:53 Listening more than speaking.
00:08:53 --> 00:08:56 But I do think that...
00:08:57 --> 00:09:04 Operating, feeling and operating from that sense, intuiting,
00:09:06 --> 00:09:16 how and observing what's going on in the room, in the environment with the people around you.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:25 And just taking your cues from that has served me very well in,
00:09:27 --> 00:09:33 how I respond to other people and that's within my career but also within my personal life,
00:09:34 --> 00:09:40 and it's on an emotional level but also an intellectual level and sometimes
00:09:40 --> 00:09:47 that takes a minute to process and kind of work through what those those moments mean,
00:09:48 --> 00:09:55 but that's how i that's how i respond to what that quote is to me,
00:09:56 --> 00:10:03 yeah so you know who said that right no who said that you did i did you were
00:10:03 --> 00:10:09 telling a story about something that happened at the school that your child goes to.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:16 And the principal said, well, your child's not in trouble, you know,
00:10:16 --> 00:10:20 or your child doesn't have the issue, but obviously your child had said something
00:10:20 --> 00:10:23 about what was going on at the school, so you went up to the school,
00:10:24 --> 00:10:29 and did it, and that was your response to the principal when he said that doesn't involve your son.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:34 So I just wanted to recharge your memory on that one.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 And most people are surprised when I do a quote that they actually said,
00:10:38 --> 00:10:39 as opposed to somebody else.
00:10:40 --> 00:10:44 All right. So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 13.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:57 There you go. All right. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?
00:10:58 --> 00:11:05 No, I do not. This question of truth has come up. Wow, what irony. This is...
00:11:08 --> 00:11:15 Oh, yeah, I don't... No, I don't think that you can truly be unbiased.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:20 I mean, that's really hard. And especially in the news, I think that reporters
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 and journalists really strive for that. And that even in our own lives,
00:11:24 --> 00:11:28 we're looking for the most objective,
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 reporting we can and we think we find it and that's what we,
00:11:34 --> 00:11:37 that's what we're we're sticking with and and,
00:11:38 --> 00:11:44 but it's always question the source question the source and keep keep looking and then,
00:11:44 --> 00:11:49 what it what is it that you you believe and what are your experiences telling
00:11:49 --> 00:11:54 you and what truths are you seeing in your experiences,
00:11:56 --> 00:12:01 yeah because it's it's very i think and i i do think that's part of how we are
00:12:01 --> 00:12:07 moving through our lives is seeking truth and finding out like and maybe a better
00:12:07 --> 00:12:10 word for that is is answers,
00:12:11 --> 00:12:18 but objectivity is is very difficult there's so many filters that that comes through.
00:12:20 --> 00:12:24 That that's, I don't know if that's attainable. Okay.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:29 So how did a young girl from Roswell who grew up in the construction business,
00:12:30 --> 00:12:34 and majored in filmmaking get deeply involved in politics?
00:12:36 --> 00:12:38 You've done some really good research.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 You know, I, and I have, I've really,
00:12:46 --> 00:12:54 from a young age, was very interested in filmmaking and struggle with my own kids,
00:12:56 --> 00:13:02 in their career seeking and what they're interested in and try to keep them.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:08 From narrowing their field of choice and being too pigeonholed.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:12 But I do remember being their age and thinking, this is what I want to do.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:19 And it was documentary that I was drawn to, which was people have an idea about
00:13:19 --> 00:13:26 that, that that is presenting facts and that it is a sort of truth seeking and objectivity.
00:13:27 --> 00:13:32 When I was growing up, it was Ken Burns and Ken Burns was huge and had just kind of broken through.
00:13:33 --> 00:13:39 But it wasn't, even Ken Burns has a filter that everything comes through,
00:13:39 --> 00:13:45 and that is very, there's an agenda with what he is presenting.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 As much as I love Ken Burns and what he's done for documentary,
00:13:49 --> 00:13:54 my thought process and what I was trying to do with filmmaking was to go through
00:13:54 --> 00:13:56 a fiction filmmaking program.
00:13:57 --> 00:14:01 This was at a time when Law & Order was just coming into being and being very
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 popular and using cinema verite processes.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:09 Learn fiction filmmaking, go through that formulaic process,
00:14:09 --> 00:14:14 and then make documentary films using fiction filmmaking techniques.
00:14:14 --> 00:14:19 That was my whole sort of agenda and what I wanted to do.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:24 And I got very lucky with what I was doing with my...
00:14:24 --> 00:14:28 I had a lot of setbacks in trying to learn what I was doing,
00:14:28 --> 00:14:33 but then I got very, very lucky in going through UGA and some wonderful professors
00:14:33 --> 00:14:35 and interesting opportunities.
00:14:37 --> 00:14:43 And then started my career actually at a documentary film festival and not making films, but,
00:14:43 --> 00:14:47 looking at the other side of that, of the people who had made the films and
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 learning how to display those and how to put them together in programming.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:55 But that connected, looking back on all of that.
00:14:55 --> 00:15:02 It really connected to advocacy and people who had a passion for getting out
00:15:02 --> 00:15:06 something that they truly believed in, putting something together,
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 putting their heart and soul into that, advocating for it.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:15 And when I look back on that, it was terrific training for what I do now,
00:15:16 --> 00:15:24 knocking on doors, trying to convince people of something that I am certain of.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:28 And so it's a real interesting journey.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:34 And even looking at what my dad was doing with his construction business and
00:15:34 --> 00:15:41 what he believed in, and kind of stepping outside of major builders who were
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 huge in Roswell, Marietta Cobb,
00:15:45 --> 00:15:46 having worked for like John Whelan.
00:15:46 --> 00:15:51 And he had a real vision for what he wanted to do. He worked for Bob Merritt
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 and John Whelan and major builders.
00:15:53 --> 00:16:00 But then he really wanted to bring custom home building to within his own way
00:16:01 --> 00:16:03 and built a family business. This one person.
00:16:05 --> 00:16:10 Who moved down there from Detroit and kind of like started this thing and built
00:16:10 --> 00:16:15 a career over 50 years of what he really believed in.
00:16:15 --> 00:16:24 And so that was sort of like my through line of kind of watching how all of this gets built. Okay.
00:16:25 --> 00:16:32 All right. You once said, I believe in the good of humanity and science and in the power of nature.
00:16:32 --> 00:16:35 Did your grandmother influence you in that way?
00:16:35 --> 00:16:41 My grandmother, I had two really big influences, ancestral influences.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:46 My grandmother, Carmella, lived with us, and then my dad.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:52 Found a house for free and put it on our property so that she could live next door to us.
00:16:53 --> 00:16:58 My grandmother, Carmela, was like my buddy. And we would take turns kind of
00:16:58 --> 00:17:00 like spending time with grandma next door.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:09 And my job was to take her shopping, grocery shopping. She taught me like she had like coupons.
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 But she was more of like the baker.
00:17:14 --> 00:17:19 And she taught me that, like nourishing and bringing the family together and
00:17:19 --> 00:17:22 showing how that really connects people.
00:17:22 --> 00:17:26 And then I could see, like, again, another through line about how culturally
00:17:26 --> 00:17:33 that speaks. Like, our family was very Italian, but when we had friends come
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 over, this really connected our friends.
00:17:37 --> 00:17:42 And it also connected like a Southern tradition. We could see, as I grew up,
00:17:43 --> 00:17:48 there were a lot of overlaps with Southern cooking and how Southerners come
00:17:48 --> 00:17:52 together and do this with a lot of different cultures.
00:17:52 --> 00:17:56 There were so many overlaps with that that I could see in other cultures.
00:17:56 --> 00:18:01 Other cultures. As I go to candidate meet and greets and I see Korean candidates
00:18:01 --> 00:18:05 and their mothers are trying to feed me in the same way that my grandmother
00:18:05 --> 00:18:08 would try and feed our friends. I was like, this is so beautiful.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 And this feels very familiar to me.
00:18:11 --> 00:18:16 I had another, my great grandmother, Teresa, she was.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:25 The real gardener. And she actually had a beautiful garden and she would can things.
00:18:26 --> 00:18:29 When we would go and visit her, she lived in Detroit. She had a whole.
00:18:31 --> 00:18:38 Pantry up above in her kitchen, but she made use of every single part of her
00:18:38 --> 00:18:42 garden. They would eat dandelion, they had dandelion salad, the flowers,
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 everything was of use to her. She didn't speak any English.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:52 She became a citizen when she was 96. She died when she was 98.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:57 She was just a force. And because my mother's mother died when she was nine,
00:18:58 --> 00:19:01 she really raised my mom and her two sisters and,
00:19:02 --> 00:19:09 really had that sort of nurturing that she brought to the family and passed
00:19:09 --> 00:19:15 that on to my mom, who together with my dad, they became like a team when they were building houses.
00:19:15 --> 00:19:20 She would go out and find all of the plants to save and,
00:19:21 --> 00:19:27 together they they created she create she would she knew all the native plants
00:19:27 --> 00:19:29 from Georgia the native azaleas,
00:19:30 --> 00:19:34 those would think were things that she would mark even in our own property she
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 was very good about that and we had this beautiful,
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 all of the beautiful plants that she would find and plant and that's what she
00:19:42 --> 00:19:51 gave to me and kind of passed down this real appreciation for how to care for things and,
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 how to preserve that.
00:19:54 --> 00:20:02 She and my dad were very good about that and it gave me a real love for Georgia. Okay.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:06 Why is Daughters of the Dust one of your favorite movies?
00:20:08 --> 00:20:13 You know, I said I got very lucky about some of the professors that I had at
00:20:13 --> 00:20:14 the University of Georgia.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:19 They created, they didn't have filmmaking at that time at the University of
00:20:19 --> 00:20:23 Georgia. And they created a degree for me, an interdisciplinary studies degree.
00:20:24 --> 00:20:29 Richard Newport was the film studies professor there.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 And this was one of the very first films that I saw.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 And Daughters of the Dust was I mean it actually touches on a lot of the things
00:20:37 --> 00:20:44 that I just talked about with my own grandparents and sort of that ancestral passing on but this was,
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 you know the special space and
00:20:47 --> 00:20:53 it and it was about Georgia Gullah Geechee culture and like and also about,
00:20:53 --> 00:21:01 women, too, and passing on these very special kind of,
00:21:02 --> 00:21:04 preserving pieces of.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:12 What makes culture unique and kind of keeping these things precious.
00:21:12 --> 00:21:18 It made an impression on me, I think because I was also just so young and just
00:21:18 --> 00:21:25 coming into filmmaking, too, and seeing what representation can do.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:34 And new ideas, but also bringing different ideas to the screen and how important
00:21:34 --> 00:21:38 that was. That was something that was really impressed upon us.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:40 And it opened up a lot of,
00:21:42 --> 00:21:48 together with a lot of Spike Lee films, Martin Scorsese films,
00:21:49 --> 00:21:53 like seeing these things that touched in me,
00:21:53 --> 00:21:59 stuff that felt familiar, but seeing it on a big screen, it was, this is very important.
00:21:59 --> 00:22:04 And I know that sounds kind of trite, but this is why this matters.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:09 It's because it's so big, and because it feels familiar to me,
00:22:10 --> 00:22:15 we can't just keep seeing the same things over and over and over again.
00:22:15 --> 00:22:24 We have to be representing things that feel familiar to all different kinds of people.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:30 And so when I, and seeing films that were by Scorsese, and because it spoke
00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 to me, then I could relate to things that must feel
00:22:34 --> 00:22:38 familiar to people who see a Spike Lee film and it feels familiar to Spike Lee,
00:22:38 --> 00:22:44 you know, fans of Spike Lee or people who are Black, and then they can relate to that.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:50 Or like when there is a mishmash of culture and everybody can relate to that,
00:22:50 --> 00:22:56 then you can see, like I'm not from New York, but I can see how everybody is relating to each other.
00:22:56 --> 00:22:59 Then there's a little bit that everybody can take from this.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:06 That's really important, too. So all of this kind of spoke to me in a very deep
00:23:06 --> 00:23:13 way that kind of changed how I was relating to film in a fundamental way. Yeah.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:17 Yeah. Spike might have been too familiar. I remember when School Days came out.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:23 And I probably, I'd been out of college about maybe four years at that point.
00:23:23 --> 00:23:26 And I was like, Spike, what are you doing?
00:23:27 --> 00:23:30 Now our parents know what we were doing on college. What's going on,
00:23:30 --> 00:23:33 man? Why would you put that out there? You know?
00:23:33 --> 00:23:37 He had an interesting way of writing things. And he would write things with
00:23:37 --> 00:23:40 his sister. And I remember watching Crooklyn and my aunt had just died.
00:23:41 --> 00:23:45 And there were also good questions, too, that these films would bring up about
00:23:45 --> 00:23:47 who should be writing things.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:51 And those were good questions too right like,
00:23:52 --> 00:23:58 and and i liked the way that we talked about the questions of like who should be writing what,
00:23:59 --> 00:24:05 and and that was good too like we should be having these this discourse about
00:24:05 --> 00:24:07 it which bled into when i got the job with
00:24:07 --> 00:24:11 full frame film festival it was it was fantastic because then everybody could
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 discuss this there wasn't necessarily a right or wrong answer,
00:24:14 --> 00:24:16 but we should at least be talking,
00:24:17 --> 00:24:21 about big questions and then other questions that people were bringing up that
00:24:21 --> 00:24:22 maybe we hadn't thought about.
00:24:23 --> 00:24:28 So yeah, I like this. Spike was not afraid to, he's never afraid to push it.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:29 Like, that's great. Yeah.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:33 Have you had a chance to meet the director of Daughters of the Dust,
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 Julie Dash? No, I have not. No.
00:24:36 --> 00:24:38 You know, she teaches at Spelman now.
00:24:39 --> 00:24:42 Oh, really? Yeah. I think I read that recently and I was like,
00:24:42 --> 00:24:44 oh, this is, yeah, Yeah, that would be nice, yeah.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:47 Yeah, I'm trying to meet it myself.
00:24:48 --> 00:24:52 So you came awfully close to winning your legislative race in 2020.
00:24:52 --> 00:24:57 Why have you decided to stay in the advocacy lane and not pursue political office again?
00:24:59 --> 00:25:04 Yeah, it's a great question. And we did. We came super close.
00:25:04 --> 00:25:05 And I always say, you know...
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 Losing was a great thing that happened to me because one, sometimes you have
00:25:11 --> 00:25:21 to, I don't want to say that it was a failure because there were so many wins within a loss.
00:25:23 --> 00:25:27 When you're running for office, though, it's a very public thing and it's really
00:25:27 --> 00:25:30 hard to have to say, oh my gosh, I lost my race.
00:25:30 --> 00:25:37 But it did open up like a lot of doors for me in terms of advocacy and doing other things.
00:25:38 --> 00:25:42 And it's it's this is a great question that you're asking me because I've been
00:25:42 --> 00:25:45 reflecting on things like this recently.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:50 I am on the board of Winless now, and I get to help other candidates.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:58 Women candidates, and helping them with their candidacy and their campaigns
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 and kind of bringing what I learned to other candidates.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:08 That's been so rewarding for me. I don't know that I would have been able to
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 do that without the campaign that I ran.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:15 I learned a lot about myself in that race.
00:26:15 --> 00:26:22 I learned about just how races are run in that race and just politics in general,
00:26:22 --> 00:26:24 which was kind of eye-opening too.
00:26:25 --> 00:26:28 It was not an easy race. It was really, really rough. And it was during the
00:26:28 --> 00:26:32 pandemic, which was like in its own kind of bubble.
00:26:33 --> 00:26:40 But getting to do the work that I do now is also very much relational.
00:26:40 --> 00:26:42 It's one-on-one a lot of times.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:48 And it's very, very, I've gotten to learn about a lot of things.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:53 I don't know that I would be learning if, of course, I would be doing something
00:26:53 --> 00:26:56 very different if I were running for office again.
00:26:56 --> 00:27:00 I never say never, so I'm not going to say that I'll never run for office again.
00:27:01 --> 00:27:04 But Danielle Bell is running for that seat now. She's doing great.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:09 And it's been nice to also be advising her and talking to her about her race.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:18 So things have changed. And I have truly loved the work that I've gotten to do since then.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:23 And so it's been very rewarding to be doing something else.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 And so we'll see what the future holds. Yeah.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 So campaigning in 2020, I don't know if you've ever seen this meme where the
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 two dogs are talking to each other from a distance.
00:27:35 --> 00:27:38 And the dog's like, hey, what's your name?
00:27:38 --> 00:27:43 Tony, what's your name? Tony and Frank. That was kind of like campaigning in
00:27:43 --> 00:27:46 2020. It's like you're right there at the driveway and say, hey,
00:27:47 --> 00:27:52 I'm so-and-so. I'm running for this. It's like, hey, okay, just leave it at the mailbox.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:59 2020 was kind of a tough year to be out there knocking on doors and campaigning and stuff.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:05 2020 was, I mean, like we came so close without being able to really knock doors.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:08 I think we might have knocked doors from a distance one time.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:14 I did a lot of phone calls, and everybody will tell you that it's won by door knocking.
00:28:14 --> 00:28:20 That's what you're seeing even in races where there's a Democrat challenging
00:28:20 --> 00:28:24 another Democrat. That's how you're winning early in the primaries is by knocking
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 tons and tons of doors. That's not a secret.
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 That's really how you do it is just getting out there.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 And what we were finding was that district in particular had been overlooked
00:28:38 --> 00:28:40 for so long, nobody's doors had been knocked.
00:28:41 --> 00:28:44 And they were so hungry for that kind of attention.
00:28:44 --> 00:28:49 We would have loved to have done that. And it was kind of a double-edged sword, right?
00:28:49 --> 00:28:53 You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, because it was the pandemic
00:28:53 --> 00:28:57 and nobody really knew what was going to happen.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:02 And you were getting the advice to not do that because it could really,
00:29:02 --> 00:29:06 really backfire. And of course, nobody wanted to spread anything.
00:29:06 --> 00:29:08 It was really difficult.
00:29:09 --> 00:29:16 And then we did raise a tremendous amount of money, especially for first-time
00:29:16 --> 00:29:18 candidate and especially during the pandemic.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:23 When people were not working. So we did a lot, a lot of stuff,
00:29:23 --> 00:29:30 but having to do things outside of door knocking made it even harder and more expensive.
00:29:30 --> 00:29:35 So I think we would have done great. We would have done just so,
00:29:35 --> 00:29:36 so good had we been able to door knock.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:41 But more importantly, it would have meant a lot to the district and to those
00:29:41 --> 00:29:47 people to see a face and to see somebody for a change and to put the name with
00:29:47 --> 00:29:51 the face and have those conversations. Yeah.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:55 Yeah. And then the other point you brought up about, you know,
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 when about your reflections about running.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:00 All it takes is that you win once.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:07 I've lost more races than I've won, you know, but I messed around and got elected
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 to a legislative spot in Mississippi.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:15 And, you know, I got to be a Democratic nominee twice for U.S. Senate.
00:30:16 --> 00:30:20 So it's like, so in Mississippi, it's kind of like, well, Erik Fleming is this
00:30:20 --> 00:30:21 guy, you know what I'm saying?
00:30:22 --> 00:30:24 And then it's like James Carvel.
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 He only won two races out of all the races he's been a campaign manager for.
00:30:29 --> 00:30:33 He got a senator elected in Pennsylvania, and he got a president of the United States elected.
00:30:34 --> 00:30:38 And he's a legend, but he lost a lot more racist than he won.
00:30:38 --> 00:30:45 So like you said, losing an election is really, really educational because if
00:30:45 --> 00:30:50 you win right off the bat and you keep winning, you might get a little cocky,
00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 you might get a little overconfident.
00:30:51 --> 00:30:55 We had a guy in Illinois when I was growing up named Michael Bacallus,
00:30:56 --> 00:31:01 and that man never lost anything. If he ran for, if there was an office for
00:31:01 --> 00:31:03 picking up trash in Illinois, he would have won it, right?
00:31:04 --> 00:31:08 And then he turned around and ran for governor and got his brains beat out and
00:31:08 --> 00:31:10 he just disappeared. Right.
00:31:11 --> 00:31:15 So, and then there's some people that just went all the time.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 We got a guy in Mississippi, Tate Reeves. He's never lost an election.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:24 He got elected treasurer. Then he got elected lieutenant governor.
00:31:24 --> 00:31:25 He got to be elected governor.
00:31:25 --> 00:31:28 And even some Republicans that I was cool with back in the day,
00:31:29 --> 00:31:32 I said, what's this? What's the secret for Tate Reeves? I don't know.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:38 You know because if you met him you'd be like he's the what,
00:31:38 --> 00:31:43 you know i'm saying he's like he's like the nerd of the nerds right he's he's
00:31:43 --> 00:31:49 not even cool in the in the geek class but but he won everything he ran for
00:31:49 --> 00:31:52 and so politics is real strange like that,
00:31:53 --> 00:31:57 and i'm usually one of those people that just believe that if that's what you
00:31:57 --> 00:32:03 want to do keep pursuing it but you know i know life happens too.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:06 And, and, and you seem to be doing a good job being an advocate.
00:32:06 --> 00:32:09 So I don't want to take you away from that per se, but just,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:12 I'm glad that you're still contemplating. I think that's the word.
00:32:14 --> 00:32:21 Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I, for somebody like me, who is, it was hard for me
00:32:21 --> 00:32:24 to, to say yes to running, but,
00:32:25 --> 00:32:30 The minority leader at the time asked me to run, and you don't really say no to that.
00:32:31 --> 00:32:37 But the fear of failure was what was keeping me from saying yes.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:43 I did say yes because I did not want to fail, but that was the best thing to
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 happen to me. That's what I say. And I am a risk taker.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:52 I'm a high achiever, but I am a risk taker, which is, you know,
00:32:52 --> 00:32:53 I think those two things are tied.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:58 And so that's why I don't say like, we can say that I failed.
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 That's fine. I accept that.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 But I'm also good now with saying, you know what?
00:33:04 --> 00:33:09 It's good to make mistakes. You should embrace mistakes. You should, even if you fail.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:14 And that is my attitude is what's the worst that could happen?
00:33:14 --> 00:33:17 You know, like what's the worst? Okay, so I lost the race, right?
00:33:17 --> 00:33:22 And I don't mean to be glib about that, but you need to learn from things.
00:33:22 --> 00:33:26 And you can't, okay, some people can win. You gave an example of some people
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 who can win all the time. That's great, good for them.
00:33:29 --> 00:33:33 But I felt like the learning experience of that really served me well.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:40 Clearly, I am still here. The world keeps turning and if I can make something
00:33:40 --> 00:33:43 of that, that's the best thing.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:47 I can look my kids in the eye and
00:33:47 --> 00:33:52 I keep moving forward and I do feel like there's more for me after this.
00:33:53 --> 00:33:57 So that's what I keep kind of, and that's what I tell other candidates is,
00:33:57 --> 00:34:01 hey, listen, if you don't win this, that's okay. Because you know what,
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 guess what? In two years, there's another damn race after this. So you'll be good.
00:34:08 --> 00:34:13 Yeah. All right. So a little bit, what is the Athena Coalition?
00:34:14 --> 00:34:22 Athena Coalition. actually grew out of challenging Amazon originally and sort
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 of the stranglehold that Amazon has over.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 And it's grown since then, but, you know, in its originations,
00:34:31 --> 00:34:35 how Amazon was treating workers, the stranglehold it had over the marketplace.
00:34:35 --> 00:34:44 And as Amazon has continued to grow and it has become more of big tech now, and a monopoly,
00:34:45 --> 00:34:53 with other big tech companies, Amazon Coalition has kind of extended its reach into data centers.
00:34:53 --> 00:35:01 And that's where my role comes in, into challenging the data centers now in big tech. And I'm,
00:35:02 --> 00:35:08 the displacement of self-determination within our communities and allowing our
00:35:08 --> 00:35:13 communities to determine how they are going to decide their futures and kind
00:35:13 --> 00:35:17 of trying to return the power structure back to,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:22 from elected officials and really big tech,
00:35:23 --> 00:35:29 saying what direction we're going to go with our resources, the marketplace.
00:35:31 --> 00:35:34 And the future of our communities.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:42 And this is how I was working with Georgia Conservation Voters at a statewide
00:35:42 --> 00:35:47 and policy and electoral level. And now this is more of a regional and national
00:35:47 --> 00:35:49 reach with Athena Coalition.
00:35:49 --> 00:35:54 Yeah. So what is the deal with these data centers and why are they taking over the country?
00:35:57 --> 00:36:03 Well, the data centers are focusing, you know, first it started in Virginia
00:36:03 --> 00:36:05 and their reach has kind of grown.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:16 And it's an AI and security focus, but they have kind of lasered in on states that have,
00:36:16 --> 00:36:25 resources like water and plentiful energy, cheap plentiful energy and tax incentives.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 Well as fiber optics like the internet so
00:36:30 --> 00:36:35 they're coming to places where they can get this in abundance and for cheap
00:36:35 --> 00:36:42 so Georgia is one of those states where they're coming so that they can continue to to
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 monopolize that space and kind of,
00:36:47 --> 00:36:52 my read is convince people that this is a necessity and.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:59 That's not really the case. And these are businesses.
00:36:59 --> 00:37:06 These are billion-dollar corporations that don't necessarily need these kinds
00:37:06 --> 00:37:11 of incentives to be operating in this way.
00:37:12 --> 00:37:16 Yeah, I agree with you on that, you know, about the tax incentives.
00:37:16 --> 00:37:19 And that was something we always had to deal with.
00:37:19 --> 00:37:24 But I was just telling somebody the other day about when I was in and Nissan
00:37:24 --> 00:37:30 showed up in Mississippi and they were giving away everything.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:37 And even to the point where they weren't even going to pay taxes in the local school district.
00:37:38 --> 00:37:41 And that's where the Black Caucus led by the representative from the county
00:37:41 --> 00:37:43 where it was being built.
00:37:43 --> 00:37:48 Well, we got we we got them at least to commit like a million dollars a year
00:37:48 --> 00:37:51 to the school district. You know, you've got to give us something.
00:37:51 --> 00:37:55 I mean, you're building the largest plant in North America and the kids.
00:37:55 --> 00:37:58 That's the way my man said it. He said, right. What about the kids?
00:37:58 --> 00:38:01 The kids not going to get new books and you got this big plant.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:09 So, you know, we we it's always a challenge to try to bring industry into a
00:38:09 --> 00:38:12 state because they they basically want to extort you.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 And that's what I call it. It's extortion. It's like, well, we don't want to
00:38:15 --> 00:38:17 pay any taxes at all. It's like, well, hold on.
00:38:18 --> 00:38:21 And then if you give them, we had a Frito-Lay plant in Jackson,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:25 Mississippi, and their incentive, I think, was like for 20 years.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:30 And the very day that that tax incentive incentive was over,
00:38:30 --> 00:38:33 that plant was closed and they had moved those jobs somewhere else.
00:38:33 --> 00:38:38 And so that's that's to me is is always a big problem, whether it's data centers
00:38:38 --> 00:38:43 or warehouses or whatever you want to do. It's like.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:47 The whole reason why you're here, and we could have a whole nother podcast about
00:38:47 --> 00:38:51 tax incentives, but I mean, that to me is a problem.
00:38:51 --> 00:38:53 Then the other thing, when you were laying out the criteria,
00:38:53 --> 00:38:57 I was like, is Georgia a state that has abundant water sources?
00:38:57 --> 00:39:01 Because it seems like every other year we got a drought going on.
00:39:01 --> 00:39:04 You know what I'm saying? So, I mean, you're exactly right. Now,
00:39:04 --> 00:39:09 in the examples that you gave, Nissan and Frito-Lay, they actually give jobs, right?
00:39:09 --> 00:39:14 Like, those are plants that have workers in them. I'm going to say the difference
00:39:14 --> 00:39:18 with a data center is it's less jobs than a McDonald's. Nobody works in these.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:26 So what's being promised is mega facility, acres and acres, right?
00:39:26 --> 00:39:32 The tens of thousands of square feet that are going to fundamentally change
00:39:33 --> 00:39:36 what a community looks like. And they're preying on disadvantaged communities,
00:39:36 --> 00:39:40 tier one districts that are already hurting.
00:39:41 --> 00:39:47 So they're going to come in and make promises to a community that needs something
00:39:47 --> 00:39:50 you're exactly right that georgia,
00:39:51 --> 00:39:55 is and that's the irony here georgia is not water rich and you know if you've
00:39:55 --> 00:40:01 lived here for any amount of time yes we do have droughts but we have also fought
00:40:01 --> 00:40:04 for our water They're famously called the water wars.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:16 And so those two determining factors there, we do not have a lot of water here.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:21 Typically, data centers tap into municipal sources. They tap into.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:29 And they're using aquifers too. And so this is going to be without like a lot
00:40:29 --> 00:40:34 of coordinated oversight. We are going to be in a situation.
00:40:34 --> 00:40:40 The other resource that is typically quoted is land, plentiful land.
00:40:40 --> 00:40:47 And so as they're moving out from the metro and the typical counties where they
00:40:47 --> 00:40:54 have been placed, They're going into rural areas and buying up a lot of land.
00:40:54 --> 00:40:59 At this point, it's now becoming speculative because just like with,
00:41:00 --> 00:41:03 if you remember, like right before the housing boom, that was also becoming
00:41:03 --> 00:41:09 speculative. We have lived through a lot of these scenarios and they were not great.
00:41:10 --> 00:41:16 Um and so the lessons that need to be learned from those previous scenarios are not,
00:41:17 --> 00:41:23 really being where it's like we we've erased the history and are not going back
00:41:23 --> 00:41:26 to those books and and saying but wait a minute,
00:41:27 --> 00:41:32 we we did this already don't you remember all those pipes sticking up from all
00:41:32 --> 00:41:38 those neighborhoods in 2008 that went bust that took a really long time to come back from.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:44 And a lot of people lost their businesses, their homes, their neighborhoods. Like that was not great.
00:41:45 --> 00:41:52 This is going to happen again. So Georgia did a lot.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:59 Ted Turner, the Olympics, all of that really put us in this position because
00:41:59 --> 00:42:02 that's what built up this great fiber optic network,
00:42:03 --> 00:42:09 to bring the data centers here today, that's part and parcel of what makes us
00:42:09 --> 00:42:12 attractive to the data centers today.
00:42:14 --> 00:42:19 It does need to be something that our representatives are speaking up against
00:42:19 --> 00:42:25 and listening to the locals, because that's what's happening now is in these
00:42:25 --> 00:42:27 counties, people are actually showing up,
00:42:27 --> 00:42:31 to county commission meetings, which you know doesn't typically happen.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:36 But now they're showing up in force and saying, we don't want this,
00:42:37 --> 00:42:40 because to your point, like the schools are suffering.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:46 We do not have hospitals in rural areas. Half of our counties don't have OBGYNs.
00:42:46 --> 00:42:50 We've had a lot of rural hospitals close over the past 10 years.
00:42:51 --> 00:42:57 We don't have the other resources that have been neglected.
00:42:58 --> 00:43:04 And for data centers to be coming in and getting incentives on top of this,
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 and just sort of the frosting to all of this.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:14 They are businesses. They are subscriber services. We order things from Amazon.
00:43:15 --> 00:43:21 We're basically lining their pockets so that they can get these subsidies.
00:43:21 --> 00:43:25 And it's insult to injury.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:32 So we're relying on electives to start putting the hammer down and setting up
00:43:32 --> 00:43:34 some guidelines and saying,
00:43:35 --> 00:43:41 unless you do this, you cannot come because these again are mega facilities
00:43:42 --> 00:43:46 that pound out pollution. They pound out noise.
00:43:46 --> 00:43:51 These communities have to listen to this 24 seven. Once it's there, it's there.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:54 Those property values sink.
00:43:55 --> 00:44:01 And so, again, that self-determination factor, those communities need a voice
00:44:01 --> 00:44:04 in those decisions that are being made. Yeah.
00:44:05 --> 00:44:11 I kept, when you said that last line, I kept thinking, I was thinking about
00:44:11 --> 00:44:16 the color purple and see what it's like, until you do right by me, right? Yeah.
00:44:17 --> 00:44:23 I think that's kind of a mindset that legislators should take on these issues.
00:44:24 --> 00:44:26 All right. So I got a couple more questions. Okay.
00:44:27 --> 00:44:31 You once said representation is a two-way streak. Many people think they've
00:44:31 --> 00:44:37 done this civic duty by checking the box and voting, but really that's the beginning of the process.
00:44:37 --> 00:44:41 There's a through line, which is following those people who have been elected
00:44:41 --> 00:44:46 into office and engaging with them on key legislation and laws you think need
00:44:46 --> 00:44:50 to be written on what you want them to be doing for you.
00:44:51 --> 00:44:56 Voting is the start of the process. That building, the state capitol, that's our building.
00:44:56 --> 00:44:59 We all belong there. We all have a voice there.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:06 So my question to you is, what more can be done to get all Georgians engaged in politics?
00:45:07 --> 00:45:14 Well, you know, I think that this goes back to sort of those beginnings in filmmaking,
00:45:14 --> 00:45:19 because I think people seeing people who look like them,
00:45:19 --> 00:45:26 in the people's house would really help for people to be more welcome there.
00:45:27 --> 00:45:34 I think people are surprised. Nine times out of ten, what I've heard is, I can go there?
00:45:34 --> 00:45:38 Yeah. Yeah. This is for all of us.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42 It's actually where we all belong, but it's such an intimidating place,
00:45:43 --> 00:45:47 it doesn't feel like it. And that's because it really wasn't.
00:45:48 --> 00:45:52 I hate to say this, it really wasn't built for all of us, but that does need
00:45:52 --> 00:45:55 to change because truly it is for all of us.
00:45:55 --> 00:46:01 And part of being on the board of WinList and part of working in elections is
00:46:01 --> 00:46:05 electing people of, you know, a lot of times in campaigns when I'm working with
00:46:05 --> 00:46:08 people, they're saying, well, I'm just a mother of four.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:13 And that's awesome. That is terrific because I don't know a better project manager
00:46:13 --> 00:46:16 than a mother of four. You're going to be great.
00:46:16 --> 00:46:22 I listen to a lot of people and they're talking about their work in all kinds
00:46:22 --> 00:46:24 of different things. And I'm like, you're going to be terrific.
00:46:24 --> 00:46:27 We haven't had somebody elected in that field.
00:46:28 --> 00:46:35 The amount of legislation that's passing through these committees covers all kinds of things.
00:46:35 --> 00:46:41 And it cannot just be people who are retired, lawyers, or the typical people
00:46:41 --> 00:46:44 who have been elected over and over and over.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:51 There has to be a variety of voices down at the Capitol to represent everybody.
00:46:51 --> 00:46:55 If you've been unable to pay your bills at some point, you should probably get
00:46:55 --> 00:46:59 elected so that people can understand what that feels like.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:05 You know, like there needs to be a lot of different voices down there so that
00:47:05 --> 00:47:09 they can understand what ratepayer protections should really look like.
00:47:10 --> 00:47:17 And that's my true I think once we start getting a little bit of the entire
00:47:17 --> 00:47:20 state represented, it's going to make a very big difference.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:26 And people will really start saying, that guy, yeah, that, because that's just like...
00:47:27 --> 00:47:30 That's just like watching Goodfellas and saying, that sounds,
00:47:30 --> 00:47:35 wow, that pasta sauce looks just like when my grandma's making.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:39 Yeah, okay, that feels very familiar to me and I can relate to that part.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:44 Not all of it has to relate to you, but I can relate to that part.
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48 That part of Crooklyn, I'm feeling that part.
00:47:48 --> 00:47:51 Maybe they're not of my family and they don't look exactly like me,
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53 but I can relate to that part.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:59 And that's what, to me, representation should really kind of feel like.
00:47:59 --> 00:48:04 It's not going to be every single piece of legislation or every bill, but that part.
00:48:04 --> 00:48:08 Because this is a very big state with a lot of tensions.
00:48:09 --> 00:48:13 And a lot of people, and we come from everywhere. We come from different states.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:18 Some of us have been born here, but that is representation to me.
00:48:19 --> 00:48:23 And I think people need to know the other side of that is that you belong here.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:29 You know, whether you want to be sitting at a committee or whether you just
00:48:29 --> 00:48:32 want to come and visit, you belong here.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:36 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just so many when you, you know, just talking about that,
00:48:37 --> 00:48:43 I just remember like when we would have, I remember we were trying to kill an
00:48:43 --> 00:48:51 amendment about making hunting a constitutional right in the state of Mississippi.
00:48:51 --> 00:48:55 And I don't hunt, but, you know, it was like, so I leaned into all my,
00:48:55 --> 00:48:59 you know, colleagues that did hunt. I even borrowed one of my colleagues hunting
00:48:59 --> 00:49:03 license to speak against the bill, right? And demonstrate some things.
00:49:03 --> 00:49:07 So it's important to have people from, we were dealing with some in the funeral
00:49:07 --> 00:49:12 business. I had some knowledge, but not, you know, the whole process.
00:49:12 --> 00:49:15 So it was like, hey, man, you own a funeral home. What does this look like?
00:49:16 --> 00:49:21 How's this going by? So it helps not only the constituents, but it helps the
00:49:22 --> 00:49:27 actual legislators to have a diverse group of people where you can lean on other
00:49:27 --> 00:49:29 folks' expertise and personal experiences and stuff.
00:49:29 --> 00:49:36 So I think that is good to continue to diversify, not just because when people
00:49:36 --> 00:49:40 say diversify, it's like, oh, we got to have more women, more black folks, all this kind of stuff.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:47 Now, you need people that are just as ordinary as possible, but they have a certain skill set.
00:49:47 --> 00:49:50 You know what I'm saying? If we're talking about building, you might need a
00:49:50 --> 00:49:56 few construction workers, you know, construction company owners in the legislature to just to,
00:49:57 --> 00:50:01 have a resource that you can tap into before you make this vote that's going
00:50:01 --> 00:50:03 to impact the state one way or the other. Right.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:06 I agree. I agree with that.
00:50:07 --> 00:50:11 All right, let's close it out with this challenge. Oh, go ahead.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:15 Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
00:50:16 --> 00:50:18 Oh, so many things.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:26 I have hope because at least once a day.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:42 There is someone that I need to come across who is the reason for that day.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:52 I mean, who has a story that makes me reflect and gives me hope.
00:50:54 --> 00:50:59 Insight and actually makes me smile and say,
00:51:00 --> 00:51:04 that was it that that was the connection,
00:51:05 --> 00:51:12 and that does give me hope because I think that it is those connections,
00:51:13 --> 00:51:19 we may never see each other again but the connection with somebody even if we're
00:51:19 --> 00:51:26 only a moment is what is sustaining to me and giving me hope. Yeah.
00:51:27 --> 00:51:33 Yeah. All right. Connie Di Cicco, if people want to get in touch with you,
00:51:33 --> 00:51:37 if people want to find out more about the Athena Coalition and the work they're
00:51:37 --> 00:51:38 doing, how can they do that?
00:51:39 --> 00:51:46 You can reach me at Connie at athena4all.org.
00:51:47 --> 00:51:47 Okay.
00:51:48 --> 00:51:52 All right. Well, Connie, thank you so much for taking the time to do this.
00:51:53 --> 00:51:57 This has been a real, real enjoyable conversation. And, you know,
00:51:57 --> 00:52:02 I'm not really the smartest person in the room, but I do have a propensity to
00:52:02 --> 00:52:07 find people who are really interesting and are really doing some good work.
00:52:07 --> 00:52:11 And I'm really glad that you accepted my invitation to come on.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:16 And part of my rule is that once you've been on, you have an open invitation
00:52:16 --> 00:52:18 to come back. You don't even have to wait for me to tell you,
00:52:18 --> 00:52:20 just say, Erik, I need a platform.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:28 And we'll make sure that you get on. But again, I just wanna thank you for coming on the podcast.
00:52:28 --> 00:52:32 I cannot thank you enough. This has been such a delight for me.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:36 You are wonderful. Thank you so much. This was just terrific.
00:52:36 --> 00:52:38 All right, guys, and we're gonna catch y'all.
00:52:58 --> 00:53:03 All right, and we are back. And so it's time for my next guest, Sia Henry.
00:53:04 --> 00:53:09 Sia Henry is a Black attorney, racial justice activist, and abolitionist who
00:53:09 --> 00:53:12 has spent over a decade in the criminal legal system reform space.
00:53:13 --> 00:53:16 Sia is the founder and executive director of the Hood Exchange,
00:53:17 --> 00:53:21 where she is introducing formerly incarcerated Black communities,
00:53:21 --> 00:53:26 to international travel throughout the African diaspora, creating opportunities
00:53:26 --> 00:53:31 for folks to connect with their history and begin to heal from racism and trauma.
00:53:32 --> 00:53:37 She is also the Associate Director of Policy and Advocacy at the Multidisciplinary
00:53:37 --> 00:53:39 Association for Psychedelic Studies,
00:53:40 --> 00:53:45 where she is working to ensure Black, Indigenous, and other communities have
00:53:45 --> 00:53:48 meaningful access to transformative healing experiences.
00:53:49 --> 00:53:54 Sia previously worked with the Restorative Justice Project at Impact Justice,
00:53:55 --> 00:54:00 supporting community-based organizations and criminal legal system partners around the country.
00:54:01 --> 00:54:05 In establishing pre-charged restorative justice diversion programs that,
00:54:06 --> 00:54:11 without relying on prosecution or incarceration, bring those who have caused
00:54:11 --> 00:54:16 and been impacted by harm into healing and accountability processes.
00:54:16 --> 00:54:19 She also spent a number of years doing conditions of confinement work,
00:54:20 --> 00:54:25 engaging in impact litigation and training to improve conditions for incarcerated
00:54:25 --> 00:54:30 people with physical and developmental disabilities and mental health issues
00:54:30 --> 00:54:33 and those most at risk of sexualized violence.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:37 She graduated from Harvard Law School and Duke University.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:39 Ladies and gentlemen, it is
00:54:39 --> 00:54:44 my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Sia K.
00:54:56 --> 00:54:59 All right. See you, Henry. How are you doing?
00:55:00 --> 00:55:04 I'm great. How are you? I'm doing fine, sister. Doing fine. I'm really,
00:55:04 --> 00:55:06 really honored to have you to come on.
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11 There was something that you were doing that caught my attention,
00:55:11 --> 00:55:13 and I found out you were doing some other stuff.
00:55:14 --> 00:55:19 So I said, oh, this is going to be a good interview. So I usually start my interviews
00:55:19 --> 00:55:22 off with a couple of icebreaking exercises.
00:55:23 --> 00:55:27 So the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:55:27 --> 00:55:31 And the quote is, if you know where
00:55:31 --> 00:55:35 you came from, there are absolutely no limitations to where you can go.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:40 Yeah. So that, I believe, is James Baldwin. And it's actually on a,
00:55:40 --> 00:55:46 I believe it's on the, the quote is on the landing page for my organization, the HUD Exchange.
00:55:47 --> 00:55:52 And the idea being that, you know, oftentimes so many of us are very limited,
00:55:53 --> 00:55:58 in what we believe is possible for ourselves, for our communities.
00:55:58 --> 00:56:02 And I think that part of the reason for that is because so many of us don't
00:56:02 --> 00:56:07 fully understand where we come from, who we come from, the wisdom,
00:56:08 --> 00:56:11 the resiliency, the greatness that we come from.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:14 And so that's really important. It's like that whole concept of Sankofa,
00:56:14 --> 00:56:18 right? The idea that you have to look backwards in order to be able to move forward.
00:56:19 --> 00:56:21 Yeah, that's cool.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:26 So the next icebreaker exercise is what I call 20 questions.
00:56:27 --> 00:56:31 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. Seven.
00:56:32 --> 00:56:36 Okay. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,
00:56:36 --> 00:56:38 current events, health, etc.?
00:56:40 --> 00:56:44 Oh, this is a tricky one because I'm not good at this. Definitely not social
00:56:44 --> 00:56:47 media, most likely. I haven't been on social media in 13 years.
00:56:48 --> 00:56:53 I would say, I mean, the reality of it is that you're not going to be able to
00:56:53 --> 00:56:55 stay on top of every subject.
00:56:55 --> 00:57:00 And so I think that, you know, having, so at least I'll just speak for myself.
00:57:00 --> 00:57:02 What I do is I have an iPhone.
00:57:02 --> 00:57:06 IPhones have that built-in news app. So I tend to kind of scroll through that
00:57:06 --> 00:57:10 just to kind of get some highlights and have a general sense of what's happening in the world.
00:57:10 --> 00:57:13 And then for specific topics or issues that,
00:57:13 --> 00:57:17 are important to me that catch my eye, doing my own research,
00:57:17 --> 00:57:20 checking multiple sources, making sure that I'm not just,
00:57:20 --> 00:57:23 you know, getting all of my information from a single influencer,
00:57:23 --> 00:57:27 a single set of influencers or media or a single media outlet,
00:57:27 --> 00:57:29 really doing my own research.
00:57:29 --> 00:57:34 And, you know, anytime I hear something from someone or someone tells me something,
00:57:34 --> 00:57:38 I immediately Google it just to kind of fact check that information.
00:57:38 --> 00:57:42 Because I think that, you know, especially I'm a millennial and especially in
00:57:43 --> 00:57:48 this space that we're in where there's so much information and we're constantly surrounded
00:57:48 --> 00:57:52 by information and opinions, it can be kind of hard to really weed out what's
00:57:52 --> 00:57:54 true, what isn't, what's an opinion, what's a fact.
00:57:55 --> 00:57:56 So that's what I do.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:02 Tell the listeners about your journey to become an attorney,
00:58:02 --> 00:58:05 racial justice activist, and abolitionist.
00:58:07 --> 00:58:13 Sure. So I have always been really interested in why people do things.
00:58:13 --> 00:58:19 And I think that comes from a really deep sense of curiosity without judgment.
00:58:19 --> 00:58:23 And so, you know, in high school, for instance, I wrote a paper on serial killers
00:58:23 --> 00:58:33 because I was really interested in why certain people would engage in that level of harm and depravity.
00:58:33 --> 00:58:38 And so I went to college kind of debating between being a lawyer and a psychologist.
00:58:39 --> 00:58:43 And then I had, I believe it was a sociology class where I had a professor assign
00:58:43 --> 00:58:47 us a few chapters from Michelle Alexander's The New Jim Crow.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:48 It's an amazing book. Everyone should read it.
00:58:49 --> 00:58:56 And really started to get a better understanding of the war on drugs and the
00:58:56 --> 00:58:58 reality that the war on drugs was not about drugs at all.
00:58:58 --> 00:59:03 It was really about criminalizing blackness and anti-warness.
00:59:03 --> 00:59:06 But obviously, you can't just legally do that. And so it was kind of a roundabout
00:59:06 --> 00:59:11 way of being able to criminalize especially black and brown folks.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 And so I began to learn how the U.S.
00:59:15 --> 00:59:19 Prison system really was born out of slavery. It was essentially our country's
00:59:19 --> 00:59:23 response to our supposed abolition of slavery.
00:59:23 --> 00:59:30 And at the same time, me being young, I had also befriended a number of people
00:59:30 --> 00:59:35 who were selling drugs throughout the state of North Carolina.
00:59:35 --> 00:59:36 I went to Duke University.
00:59:37 --> 00:59:41 In doing that, I'm hanging out with these people and seeing this really interesting
00:59:41 --> 00:59:44 discrepancy between how society talks about people who sell drugs,
00:59:44 --> 00:59:49 especially black men who sell drugs, and seeing that this is this discrepancy
00:59:49 --> 00:59:52 between that and the humanity that I was seeing in them.
00:59:52 --> 00:59:57 And that made me very interested in the war on drugs and ending the war on drugs.
00:59:57 --> 01:00:00 So I went straight through from undergrad to law school. I went to Harvard Law
01:00:00 --> 01:00:05 School, and my little 22-year-old self, I went to law school with this idea
01:00:05 --> 01:00:07 that I was going to end the war on drugs and get all the black people out of
01:00:07 --> 01:00:09 prison, and it was going to be fantastic.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:14 But then probably within two weeks of being in law school, I had a professor
01:00:14 --> 01:00:18 who said, there's morality, and then there's the law.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:22 And it was in that moment, I was like, oh, no, am I in the wrong place?
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 This, you know, that doesn't sound right to me because our laws,
01:00:25 --> 01:00:30 our policies, any, you know, for any society should really be deeply rooted
01:00:30 --> 01:00:36 in our morals, our values, and a sense of care and concern for each other.
01:00:36 --> 01:00:40 And I essentially had this professor who was, you know, just very blatantly
01:00:40 --> 01:00:44 and truthfully acknowledged that that's not how our legal system is set up.
01:00:45 --> 01:00:51 So I became very disillusioned with the idea of practicing law and really kind
01:00:51 --> 01:00:55 of spent the rest of my time in law school trying to figure out how to not engage
01:00:55 --> 01:00:57 in the traditional practice of law.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:01 And thankfully, around that same time, I stumbled, I kind of just happened to
01:01:01 --> 01:01:03 go to a talk about restorative justice.
01:01:04 --> 01:01:10 And, you know, heard about the process, ended up doing an internship with one
01:01:10 --> 01:01:15 of the women who was on the panel, Sajjata Balada, who's a very well-known person
01:01:15 --> 01:01:16 in the restorative justice space.
01:01:17 --> 01:01:22 After law school, ended up moving to California to continue working with Siddhartha
01:01:22 --> 01:01:23 and the Resortive Justice Project.
01:01:24 --> 01:01:30 And what we were doing was we were essentially a national, a very small national
01:01:30 --> 01:01:32 training and technical assistance and support team.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:37 So we were supporting communities around the country, major cities,
01:01:37 --> 01:01:40 Philadelphia, Durham, Miami,
01:01:41 --> 01:01:44 Oakland, California, Richmond, L.A., supporting communities around the country,
01:01:45 --> 01:01:51 in establishing what we call restorative, pre-charged restorative justice diversion programs.
01:01:51 --> 01:01:57 And so we trained community-based organizations in facilitating restorative
01:01:57 --> 01:02:02 justice diversion processes and then also negotiated with DA's offices,
01:02:03 --> 01:02:09 prosecutor offices in those same communities to get them to agree to send cases to this program.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:14 And so what the programs looked like was they were for people engaging in serious
01:02:14 --> 01:02:17 harm in their communities, specifically for more serious types of harm,
01:02:17 --> 01:02:20 robbery, burglary, rape, assault.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:23 I don't know why I said rape. Rape would ideally be part of this,
01:02:23 --> 01:02:29 but none of the programs that we were advising at the time at least were dealing
01:02:29 --> 01:02:32 with that level of seriousness of offense.
01:02:32 --> 01:02:35 But anyway, so what the process would, how it would look was,
01:02:36 --> 01:02:40 let's say I robbed you, Erik. So instead of the DA's office charging me with
01:02:40 --> 01:02:45 robbery, they would send my case to the community-based organization that had
01:02:45 --> 01:02:46 been trained in the process.
01:02:47 --> 01:02:51 And then a team of facilitators, a pair of facilitators from that community-based
01:02:51 --> 01:02:54 organization would meet with me and then independently meet with you.
01:02:56 --> 01:03:01 And then also meet with our respective loved ones and make sure everyone's willing
01:03:01 --> 01:03:02 to participate in the process.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:06 Do a ton of prep work that can take either weeks or even months.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:10 And then once you and I were both completely ready and comfortable,
01:03:10 --> 01:03:15 we would then, the facilitators would then bring us all together for a conference.
01:03:15 --> 01:03:19 So the only people in that room, in that space, would be the facilitators,
01:03:20 --> 01:03:24 me, you, and then whoever we brought with us as our support system.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:28 So, and I'm really highlighting that because this wasn't about...
01:03:29 --> 01:03:36 About the system basically kind of stealing our ability to address and work
01:03:36 --> 01:03:38 through conflicts and accountability.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:44 So if you look at the traditional criminal legal system, in that same scenario,
01:03:44 --> 01:03:47 if I was arrested and prosecuted, the criminal case would be U.S.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:52 V. Henry, with my robbery against you being considered a robbery against the
01:03:52 --> 01:03:56 state, a harm against the state, as opposed to harm against you as an individual, as a human being.
01:03:56 --> 01:04:01 So at that conference, I would have a chance to apologize because I would have
01:04:01 --> 01:04:05 been prepped and coached in how to give a good apology.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:08 I would have a chance to apologize, explain why I did what I did.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:14 You would have a chance to explain how the robbery has impacted you, the resulting trauma.
01:04:14 --> 01:04:17 Our respected loved ones would also have a chance to speak. And then at the
01:04:17 --> 01:04:21 end of that conference, everyone in the room would collectively come up with
01:04:21 --> 01:04:26 a plan to support me in making things right to you, my family,
01:04:26 --> 01:04:28 my community, and also myself.
01:04:28 --> 01:04:32 And then as long as I complete that plan, usually within six months,
01:04:32 --> 01:04:33 no charges were ever filed.
01:04:34 --> 01:04:37 Processed significantly better than what our criminal legal system does.
01:04:40 --> 01:04:45 Tens of thousands of dollars cheaper, 90 plus percent victim or survivor satisfaction
01:04:45 --> 01:04:47 rate, significantly lower recidivism rates.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:50 Because if you think about it, it's really a process that, A,
01:04:50 --> 01:04:54 really centers the needs of the person harmed instead of the needs of the state,
01:04:54 --> 01:04:55 like I was saying before.
01:04:56 --> 01:04:59 But it's also something that we all know and already do instinctively.
01:04:59 --> 01:05:04 It's something that indigenous people and, you know, just people generally have
01:05:04 --> 01:05:10 done for centuries, right? We've all engaged in some type of harm in our lives.
01:05:10 --> 01:05:14 We've all caused harm, you know, different levels of seriousness.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:19 So what's the ideal? Ideally, what have we done, ideally, when we've caused
01:05:19 --> 01:05:22 harm, when we've hurt a friend, a family, a loved one?
01:05:22 --> 01:05:25 We apologize and we try to figure out how we can make it right.
01:05:25 --> 01:05:27 So it's essentially what this process is about.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:32 So my heart will always be with restorative justice diversion work.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:38 I think it's, you know, it's a process that, the model that we were training
01:05:38 --> 01:05:42 people in was based off of a model from New Zealand.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:48 So currently, New Zealand's entire juvenile legal system uses that approach,
01:05:48 --> 01:05:53 they call it family group conferencing, to address all youth harm.
01:05:53 --> 01:05:58 So to all, you know, crimes committed by young people, that is the default approach
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 that New Zealand uses. And it's actually based off of their indigenous Maori,
01:06:03 --> 01:06:04 approaches to responding to harm.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:08 So that's the work I was doing for a number of years. And then it got to a point
01:06:08 --> 01:06:13 where I realized I really needed to get a better understanding of,
01:06:14 --> 01:06:18 the criminal legal system and what it was doing, what it looked like,
01:06:18 --> 01:06:23 as opposed to just kind of, you know, trying to create processes to replace
01:06:23 --> 01:06:26 the system without having a better understanding of what the system looked like.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:32 So I ended up spending a number of years doing prison and jail conditions of confinement work.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:39 So a lot of that was working at a law firm, a nonprofit law firm that was.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:43 It does the leading conditions of confinement work in the country.
01:06:44 --> 01:06:48 And so a lot of the lawsuits were class action lawsuits, for instance,
01:06:48 --> 01:06:53 against the California Department of Corrections on behalf of all incarcerated
01:06:53 --> 01:06:57 people in California state prisons with physical disabilities.
01:06:57 --> 01:07:00 So I think people in wheelchairs, people who are deaf or blind.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:04 There was another lawsuit representing people with mental health issues,
01:07:04 --> 01:07:08 another one for people with developmental disabilities, another one for people
01:07:08 --> 01:07:09 with serious medical issues.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:14 And so I was spending a lot of time in prisons. I also, because I just couldn't
01:07:14 --> 01:07:20 get enough, was also volunteering in San Quentin State Prison as a college English teacher and tutor.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:26 So I was spending a ton of time in maximum security prisons and also touring some jails, etc.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:31 And did that for a number of years. And both, it was very interesting work.
01:07:31 --> 01:07:33 It was very heartbreaking work.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:39 Also met a lot of really incredible, amazing people who were incarcerated at
01:07:39 --> 01:07:43 the time. Thankfully, a number of them have since been released and were still friends.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:52 But in doing that work, I will never forget, I was sitting at a conference with our co-counsel once.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:56 We were having a big meeting about a strategy for this, one of the class action
01:07:56 --> 01:07:59 cases. And all these cases have been going on for 10, 15 plus years because
01:07:59 --> 01:08:00 that's how our legal system works.
01:08:01 --> 01:08:05 And we were talking about a particular prison that was incredibly violent,
01:08:06 --> 01:08:09 really essentially in a lot of ways kind of, you know, the correctional officers
01:08:09 --> 01:08:12 have largely allowed gangs to kind of run a lot of things.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:17 And, you know, every time we would try to go visit that prison and interview
01:08:17 --> 01:08:18 incarcerated people, a lot of
01:08:18 --> 01:08:23 times the incarcerated people we tried to interview in one-on-one private,
01:08:23 --> 01:08:28 you know, attorney-client privilege settings, a lot of times those incarcerated
01:08:28 --> 01:08:30 people would refuse the interview.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:35 So they would refuse to speak to us. And that was because every time after we
01:08:35 --> 01:08:41 left from doing an audit of that facility, the correctional officers would retaliate.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:42 And that would look a number of different ways.
01:08:43 --> 01:08:48 Starving people, beating them, taking away their property, depriving them of
01:08:48 --> 01:08:50 their mail, phone calls, et cetera.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:55 And so we're talking about this, our law firm and our co-counsel.
01:08:55 --> 01:09:00 And, you know, someone at one point said, you know.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:04 We were essentially trying to figure out what we could do about the retaliation.
01:09:04 --> 01:09:05 And someone said, well, we can
01:09:05 --> 01:09:13 file a motion asking the judge to order the prison staff to not retaliate.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:19 But then someone else made the point that, well, it's not like they have permission now to retaliate.
01:09:19 --> 01:09:24 And it was like in that moment that Audre Lorde's quote, you'll never dismantle
01:09:24 --> 01:09:26 the master's house using the master's tools.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:30 Really like it was in that I had this light bulb moment where I was like I understand
01:09:30 --> 01:09:35 what that means and because to me what I was understanding was that litigation
01:09:35 --> 01:09:40 and the traditional practice of law is oftentimes very much one of the master's tools,
01:09:41 --> 01:09:44 in the sense that you can make certain changes you can,
01:09:45 --> 01:09:48 require certain things but at the end of the day we're never gonna,
01:09:48 --> 01:09:53 you know litigate our way out of racism classism homophobia xenophobia all of
01:09:53 --> 01:09:57 the things that takes community building, relationship building,
01:09:57 --> 01:10:01 trust building, you know, changing hearts and minds and not just changing policy.
01:10:02 --> 01:10:06 And so that realization coupled with all of,
01:10:07 --> 01:10:15 the violence and the harm I saw, you know, touring prisons and jails really,
01:10:15 --> 01:10:19 got me to a point where I started identifying as an abolitionist.
01:10:20 --> 01:10:24 And what that really meant to me was, and I think a lot of times people hear,
01:10:24 --> 01:10:26 oh, abolition, you just want to let everyone out of prison tomorrow.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:30 Just let everyone run amok. That is not what abolition means.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:35 Abolition means creating a society from the ground up where people have access
01:10:35 --> 01:10:37 to the resources and the things that they need.
01:10:38 --> 01:10:42 Everyone has access to those things, the things that they need to be well,
01:10:42 --> 01:10:48 both mentally, physically, and to thrive, so that we don't see the type of harm
01:10:48 --> 01:10:52 happening in that type of society that you do, you know, for instance, in the U.S.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:56 And then when harm does happen, when conflict does happen, because it's just
01:10:56 --> 01:11:03 natural when you bring human beings together, you have processes like restorative justice, diversion,
01:11:03 --> 01:11:08 and other types of healing and accountability processes that don't require removing
01:11:08 --> 01:11:12 someone from their community, which causes a whole other host of harm.
01:11:12 --> 01:11:14 So I just said a lot of things. I will stop talking.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:20 Well, that was very detailed, but I appreciate it.
01:11:20 --> 01:11:26 No, I'm serious because, you know, I read something that you wrote called,
01:11:26 --> 01:11:29 What Do We Do While Waiting to Realize Prison Abolition?
01:11:30 --> 01:11:36 And I thought that was very compelling because it also explained why you do what you do.
01:11:36 --> 01:11:41 So we won't get into that article, but I will tell my listeners,
01:11:41 --> 01:11:45 please read that if you want to kind of get into Ms. Henry's brain a little more.
01:11:47 --> 01:11:50 Which person has influenced you the most in your life and work? Thank you.
01:11:52 --> 01:11:56 I love these questions. In my life, definitely my father. He is the absolute
01:11:56 --> 01:11:58 best person I will probably ever meet.
01:12:00 --> 01:12:03 I don't think he ever planned on having kids. He had my sister and I are in
01:12:03 --> 01:12:12 his mid-40s. And just growing up, it has been such a blessing to grow up with someone who you see.
01:12:13 --> 01:12:18 He's the perfect embodiment of the idea of treating people the way you want
01:12:18 --> 01:12:20 to be treated, being a good neighbor.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:24 I just have countless stories of, you know, we're from Brooklyn,
01:12:24 --> 01:12:27 New York. He still lives in the house that my sister and I were born in. We were born at home.
01:12:28 --> 01:12:33 And just seeing the way he interacts with people, he shows up for his neighbors.
01:12:35 --> 01:12:38 Strangers, you know, for no other reason other than it's just the right thing to do.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:42 And so I think that I've really carried that throughout my life.
01:12:42 --> 01:12:43 And so even thinking about, you
01:12:43 --> 01:12:46 know, people who have engaged in really serious harm and behavior that,
01:12:47 --> 01:12:51 you know, we are very rightfully either mad at and or scared of,
01:12:51 --> 01:12:56 being able to still see the humanity in them, being able to not just define
01:12:56 --> 01:12:58 people by the worst thing that they've ever done,
01:12:59 --> 01:13:04 and still being able to kind of to look for those bright spots and opportunities for connection.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:13 I think in my career, there's been a A lot of people along the way who have helped shape.
01:13:14 --> 01:13:19 Different pieces of my ideology, of the way I look at the work that I do.
01:13:20 --> 01:13:26 I would say really the main name that's coming to mind is my old mentor and
01:13:26 --> 01:13:29 supervisor in the restorative justice space, Ajatha Balaga.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:37 She is a, I believe, first-born, first-generation parent, sorry,
01:13:37 --> 01:13:39 daughter of immigrant parents.
01:13:39 --> 01:13:44 They migrated from India, and she was living, I think, in some rural town in
01:13:44 --> 01:13:46 Pennsylvania, I believe, but don't quote me on that.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:51 Either way, the relevant part of her story is that from the age of six to 16,
01:13:51 --> 01:13:52 her father was molesting her.
01:13:53 --> 01:13:57 And she has talked very publicly about this for a really long time.
01:13:57 --> 01:14:03 And the entire time, you know, she talks about how she wanted him to stop.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:08 But she knew that if she told the police or she told someone that there was
01:14:08 --> 01:14:13 a really good chance that her parents would be deported and her and her sister
01:14:13 --> 01:14:15 would end up in foster care.
01:14:15 --> 01:14:18 And that's not what she wanted. She just wanted him to stop.
01:14:18 --> 01:14:21 She still loved him as her father. She just wanted him to stop.
01:14:21 --> 01:14:28 And I think that her story and her story kind of goes on from there with her,
01:14:29 --> 01:14:32 you know, wanting to go to law school to originally to be a prosecutor to,
01:14:33 --> 01:14:37 prosecute people, other people who've engaged in child sexual abuse and then
01:14:37 --> 01:14:42 going on a journey and ended up having a private conversation with the Dalai
01:14:42 --> 01:14:46 Lama where he asked, you know, have you been angry for long enough?
01:14:47 --> 01:14:52 And I'm only telling bits and pieces of her story. Folks can look her up. But...
01:14:53 --> 01:14:57 You know, especially as a young person straight out of law school,
01:14:57 --> 01:15:00 I graduated from law school at 24, I believe,
01:15:00 --> 01:15:05 and having a lot of thoughts and opinions and, you know, kind of like righteous
01:15:05 --> 01:15:09 anger and not really knowing how to funnel that or really having.
01:15:11 --> 01:15:15 A comprehensive view or understanding of,
01:15:15 --> 01:15:19 what I believe, just having a lot of feelings and not knowing how to communicate
01:15:19 --> 01:15:24 that or not knowing how to have a critical lens and analyzing different approaches
01:15:24 --> 01:15:27 and different, you know, kind of ideologies, Sajadra really,
01:15:28 --> 01:15:31 helped shape that in me as a young person fresh out of law school.
01:15:32 --> 01:15:37 Okay. A child who isn't embraced by its village will burn it down to fill its
01:15:37 --> 01:15:40 warmth. Why is that your favorite African proverb?
01:15:40 --> 01:15:44 I love this proverb. I've quoted it now in two things that I've published.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:49 Because it's so true. So and kind of going back to what I was saying before
01:15:49 --> 01:15:55 about, you know, so I heard someone say once that the U.S. is the most individualistic society.
01:15:55 --> 01:16:00 And I truly believe that because there's this kind of underlying assumption
01:16:00 --> 01:16:06 that if you are successful in this country, it's solely because of your hard
01:16:06 --> 01:16:07 work and ethic and merit.
01:16:07 --> 01:16:10 And if you are unsuccessful, if you're living in poverty, et cetera.
01:16:11 --> 01:16:15 It is also solely because of your own fault.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:21 And really ignoring the interconnectedness of humans, of all of us,
01:16:21 --> 01:16:24 you know, with other living beings and the land, et cetera.
01:16:25 --> 01:16:30 And so I love that quote, because one thing that has really concerned me that
01:16:30 --> 01:16:33 I've been seeing over the last several years,
01:16:33 --> 01:16:37 is this idea of cancel culture, where, you know, oftentimes a celebrity,
01:16:37 --> 01:16:42 but just someone even just in smaller communities, someone engages in some type of harmful behavior.
01:16:42 --> 01:16:46 Let's say, you know, look at, for instance, R. Kelly or Diddy, right?
01:16:46 --> 01:16:50 Someone engages in some type of harmful behavior, and the knee-jerk reaction
01:16:50 --> 01:16:55 in this society is to, you know, is to cancel them, to cut them off.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:58 You know, we don't listen to that music anymore. We don't talk about this person.
01:16:59 --> 01:17:02 And I understand that knee-jerk reaction.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:07 But if you go back to the early, you know, to the often time,
01:17:07 --> 01:17:09 but again, kind of going back to what I was saying at the beginning of this,
01:17:09 --> 01:17:14 is that my first question whenever I hear about someone engaging in some type
01:17:14 --> 01:17:16 of heinous behavior is always, why?
01:17:17 --> 01:17:19 How did we get here? How did this happen?
01:17:20 --> 01:17:27 99.9% of the time, that person has some type of traumatic story in their past,
01:17:27 --> 01:17:29 especially in their childhood.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:33 You know, a majority of the time, if not all the time, when people are engaging
01:17:33 --> 01:17:36 in harm is because they're acting out of their own trauma.
01:17:36 --> 01:17:42 And so, you know, if I told you that there was a child across the street,
01:17:42 --> 01:17:45 a 10-year-old child across the street that was being abused,
01:17:45 --> 01:17:49 I think we would all agree that that child needs and deserves help.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:53 Oftentimes though that that child does not get the help and that that they need
01:17:53 --> 01:17:56 and deserve so that child grows up,
01:17:56 --> 01:18:00 they become 18 and now all of a sudden they've crossed over this magical line
01:18:00 --> 01:18:03 where they're they're considered an adult and they're considered wholly and
01:18:03 --> 01:18:07 entirely responsible for their behavior even though they haven't been given,
01:18:08 --> 01:18:10 or equipped with any of the resources,
01:18:11 --> 01:18:15 or support that that they need to work through their traumatic experiences to,
01:18:16 --> 01:18:20 figure out how to heal and move forward and be a kind, loving adult out in the world.
01:18:20 --> 01:18:25 So then when they start engaging in that harmful behavior, now all of a sudden
01:18:25 --> 01:18:29 we react with calling for punishment and seeking revenge.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:36 And it creates this really cyclical cycle that this country has just been stuck in for centuries.
01:18:37 --> 01:18:43 And so that is really, that's my favorite African proverb, because it really kind of brings home the,
01:18:43 --> 01:18:49 point that if you, again, if you surround people with the community and relationship
01:18:49 --> 01:18:53 and the resources that they need, they're not going to engage in the type of
01:18:53 --> 01:18:54 behavior that we don't want to see later on down the road.
01:18:55 --> 01:19:00 Yeah. All right. So with the time remaining, I want to get into the work that you're doing.
01:19:01 --> 01:19:05 Like I said, you work with MAPS.
01:19:06 --> 01:19:11 And so that's what intrigued me because of the work you're doing with that organization.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:14 And I believe it's multidisciplinary,
01:19:15 --> 01:19:19 Association for Psychedelic Studies. Did I get that right?
01:19:20 --> 01:19:23 Yes, it's a very long, ridiculous name. Yeah, so that's why everybody calls
01:19:23 --> 01:19:28 it MAPS. But before I get to what you do with MAPS, I found out that you started
01:19:28 --> 01:19:31 this thing called the Hood Exchange. Why did you do that?
01:19:32 --> 01:19:37 Yeah, so I started the Hood Exchange in, I believe around summer 2022.
01:19:39 --> 01:19:44 And so I love traveling. I go to at least two new countries a year.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:47 It's kind of part of just my own mental health practice.
01:19:47 --> 01:19:51 And I've been traveling since I was a child. My mother's side of the family
01:19:51 --> 01:19:54 is from Barbados. My mother was born and raised in Barbados.
01:19:54 --> 01:20:02 And so my love of traveling has really allowed me to learn how different cultures
01:20:02 --> 01:20:07 approach life, approach community, approach joy, all these different aspects of life.
01:20:08 --> 01:20:12 And that's really impacted me a lot. It's impacted how I engage with other people,
01:20:13 --> 01:20:14 my outlooks, my views, etc.
01:20:16 --> 01:20:21 And unfortunately, for so many reasons, the majority of Black people and majority
01:20:21 --> 01:20:23 of people who look like me don't travel.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:26 Have never been out of the country, maybe have never even been out of their
01:20:26 --> 01:20:28 city or even in some instances, their neighborhood.
01:20:30 --> 01:20:34 And because of that, really, in a lot of ways, don't understand that the way
01:20:34 --> 01:20:38 we are living in this country is not necessarily normal.
01:20:38 --> 01:20:44 And so I just had this idea one day of pairing my love of traveling with my
01:20:44 --> 01:20:49 love of working with and supporting directly impacted people,
01:20:49 --> 01:20:52 people who've been directly impacted by the criminal legal system.
01:20:52 --> 01:20:56 So I started the HUD Exchange, which is specifically the whole kind of underlying
01:20:56 --> 01:21:02 goal is to expand Black imaginations about what's possible for ourselves and each other.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:07 And so we're doing that by taking formerly incarcerated Black people between
01:21:07 --> 01:21:12 the ages of 18 and 30 and introducing folks who've never been out of the country,
01:21:12 --> 01:21:16 getting them passports and taking them on completely free to them trips.
01:21:18 --> 01:21:24 To other countries within the African diaspora. So it is just me doing that
01:21:24 --> 01:21:25 work. So we've only been able.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:32 To raise the money to do one trip so far. So I took a group of young people,
01:21:32 --> 01:21:37 from Atlanta to Ghana in April 2024.
01:21:38 --> 01:21:45 It was by far the absolute most incredible, most beautiful thing I've ever done,
01:21:45 --> 01:21:47 thing I've ever been a part of.
01:21:47 --> 01:21:51 And we ended up actually making a documentary about the trip.
01:21:51 --> 01:21:54 That was not the intention, but we just ended up having all this really amazing footage.
01:21:54 --> 01:21:56 We were like, we have to make a documentary. And so we did that.
01:21:56 --> 01:22:00 We had a screening for it in Atlanta, actually, in November.
01:22:00 --> 01:22:05 And I'm in the process of hopefully being able to raise additional money to
01:22:05 --> 01:22:09 take folks on a new cohort of people on another trip next year.
01:22:09 --> 01:22:14 Okay. And you use the word imagination because one of the things that's on the website,
01:22:15 --> 01:22:22 it goes into detail about the imagination problem and that we don't tap into
01:22:22 --> 01:22:27 that enough to visualize how we as Black people can achieve certain things.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:33 So I asked the listeners to go check that out because when I saw that phrase,
01:22:33 --> 01:22:38 that quote, the imagination problem, I said, huh, I think that's not the way
01:22:38 --> 01:22:42 I normally say that. But, yeah, that's pretty cool. So...
01:22:43 --> 01:22:48 What specifically is MAPS? Yes. So MAPS has been around for 40 years.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:52 It's celebrated its 40th year anniversary in April.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:57 And kind of in a nutshell, it's essentially the leading nonprofit organization
01:22:57 --> 01:23:03 that is creating the educational, legal, and cultural context for people to
01:23:03 --> 01:23:05 have safe access to psychedelics.
01:23:06 --> 01:23:11 So what does that mean? So MAPS does a ton of research, and I won't get into
01:23:11 --> 01:23:15 all of that, but we have led this process of getting, for instance,
01:23:15 --> 01:23:19 MDMA-assisted therapy approved by the Federal Drug,
01:23:20 --> 01:23:22 Administration, or sorry, Food and Drug Administration, the FDA.
01:23:23 --> 01:23:28 The idea, kind of underlying idea here being that prior to the waging of the
01:23:28 --> 01:23:32 war on drugs, which happened in the early 70s, there were a number of psychedelics
01:23:32 --> 01:23:34 that were being used both,
01:23:34 --> 01:23:39 in indigenous settings, namely plant medicines like ayahuasca,
01:23:39 --> 01:23:42 peyote, etc., especially being used in indigenous settings.
01:23:43 --> 01:23:49 But then also synthetic substances like MDMA and LSD being used in,
01:23:49 --> 01:23:56 for instance, in therapist offices to support people in healing from trauma, etc.
01:23:56 --> 01:24:02 The war on drugs basically shut all of that down, made pretty much all psychedelics
01:24:02 --> 01:24:07 schedule one substances, which legally makes them the most kind of legally characterizes
01:24:07 --> 01:24:10 them as the most dangerous of all the drugs.
01:24:11 --> 01:24:17 And that criminalized possession, sale, but then also research into these substances.
01:24:17 --> 01:24:20 And so that's one of the things that MAPS has been working really hard to roll
01:24:20 --> 01:24:25 back, both in researching substances and then also advocating for policy changes.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:30 So I specifically am the Associate Director of Policy and Advocacy at MAPS.
01:24:30 --> 01:24:36 And so I work very closely with state legislators, grassroots organizations
01:24:36 --> 01:24:38 who are looking to decriminalize.
01:24:39 --> 01:24:43 Certain psychedelic substances, whether it's psilocybin mushrooms or quote-unquote
01:24:43 --> 01:24:49 magic mushrooms and other similar psychedelic substances to make it so when
01:24:49 --> 01:24:54 you decriminalize substance, it basically becomes law enforcement's.
01:24:55 --> 01:24:56 Lowest enforcement priority.
01:24:57 --> 01:25:01 So working with states to either decriminalize those substances or establish
01:25:01 --> 01:25:05 regulated access processes where so currently,
01:25:06 --> 01:25:11 Colorado and Oregon and now most recently New Mexico have become the first states
01:25:11 --> 01:25:15 where they have regulated access to psilocybin, which means that you can go to a licensed facility,
01:25:16 --> 01:25:21 and have a person do a medical mental health intake with you to see if this
01:25:21 --> 01:25:24 is something safe for you to participate in.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:28 They sit and they then sit with you while you actually do mushrooms.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:32 And then there's usually a several multi-week long, what we call integration
01:25:32 --> 01:25:35 process, where they support you in...
01:25:36 --> 01:25:40 Integrating the experience that you the different experiences or lessons that
01:25:40 --> 01:25:44 you learned or you know realizations or epiphanies that you had while under
01:25:44 --> 01:25:48 the influence of those mushrooms they support you in figuring out how to integrate,
01:25:48 --> 01:25:53 those experiences and lessons into your life moving forward and in healing ways
01:25:53 --> 01:25:56 so and i know that this probably to some listeners is probably going to sound
01:25:56 --> 01:25:59 like very hokey and weird and hippy dippy but,
01:25:59 --> 01:26:04 people everywhere from the va is you know at The federal level has been studying
01:26:04 --> 01:26:09 MDMA, especially for PTSD and treatment-resistant depression,
01:26:09 --> 01:26:13 suicidality, substance use disorders, et cetera, especially for veterans.
01:26:13 --> 01:26:17 We now have major universities like Harvard, Berkeley, Stanford,
01:26:17 --> 01:26:19 who are also studying psychedelics.
01:26:19 --> 01:26:22 The federal government even just signed an executive order in April,
01:26:23 --> 01:26:28 fast-tracking research of psychedelics and really calling for an increase in
01:26:28 --> 01:26:31 access to psychedelics for certain patient populations.
01:26:31 --> 01:26:35 So this has all been really interesting. The part of the work that I'm the most excited about,
01:26:36 --> 01:26:41 is exploring the possibility of psychedelic-assisted healing to help address
01:26:41 --> 01:26:45 the needs of people directly impacted by the criminal legal system,
01:26:45 --> 01:26:46 especially folks of color.
01:26:46 --> 01:26:51 So kind of going back to that idea of the war on drugs and it's the way it has
01:26:51 --> 01:26:55 largely just decimated, you know, a lot of black and brown communities,
01:26:55 --> 01:27:00 especially low income communities of color that have been historically oppressed and exploited already.
01:27:01 --> 01:27:05 And then all of the added trauma of, you know, mass incarceration,
01:27:05 --> 01:27:08 which really came about as a result of the war on drugs,
01:27:08 --> 01:27:13 figuring out ways because, you know, last thing I would say is that in the psychedelic
01:27:13 --> 01:27:19 policy field, veterans have really been centered in that space and their overwhelming
01:27:19 --> 01:27:23 rates of PTSD and suicidality, et cetera.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:29 And unfortunately, the conversation that few of us are having is that Black
01:27:29 --> 01:27:34 and brown folks from low-income communities are, you know, experience basically
01:27:34 --> 01:27:35 the same exact rates of PTSD,
01:27:36 --> 01:27:39 substance use disorder, suicidality as combat veterans.
01:27:40 --> 01:27:43 Not to, you know, not to mention that a lot of combat veterans also themselves
01:27:43 --> 01:27:47 end up finding themselves to be incarcerated later on because that's how our
01:27:47 --> 01:27:49 country takes care of our veterans.
01:27:49 --> 01:27:54 And so that's the work that I'm really excited about is looking at kind of pairing,
01:27:54 --> 01:27:59 you know, the criminal legal system reform and abolition space and the different
01:27:59 --> 01:28:01 unmet needs when it comes to mental health,
01:28:01 --> 01:28:07 and trauma, pairing that with the psychedelic community and the possibility
01:28:07 --> 01:28:11 of psychedelics to help people heal from from really debilitating mental health issues.
01:28:11 --> 01:28:16 Yeah, because in a recent article you wrote for Psychedelics Today,
01:28:16 --> 01:28:19 you said trauma does not exist in isolation.
01:28:19 --> 01:28:23 When violence, incarceration, instability, and loss become common features of
01:28:23 --> 01:28:27 daily life, they stop feeling exceptional, they become normalized.
01:28:28 --> 01:28:35 So I'm glad that you incorporated the work that you're doing trying to use legalizing
01:28:35 --> 01:28:42 these psychedelic drugs for to deal with PTSD outside of the battlefield. Right.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:47 But I do want to talk. I did want to talk to you because there's this whole
01:28:47 --> 01:28:51 thing about Ibogaine. Am I saying that right? Ibogaine? Ibogaine?
01:28:52 --> 01:28:57 Yeah. And it's like, so what is the big deal with it and why has this particular
01:28:57 --> 01:28:59 drug gotten this attention?
01:29:00 --> 01:29:04 Yeah. So it's really interesting how we got here. Before joining MAPS almost
01:29:04 --> 01:29:06 four years ago, I had never heard of Ibogaine.
01:29:07 --> 01:29:11 Most people I know have never heard of Ibogaine. So Ibogaine is interesting.
01:29:11 --> 01:29:17 It is a psychedelic that comes from the iboga plant, which pretty exclusively
01:29:17 --> 01:29:19 grows in West Africa, like Gabon.
01:29:19 --> 01:29:26 And so in Gabon, the Witi tribes, like their traditional tribal communities
01:29:26 --> 01:29:31 use iboga for their spiritual, cultural practices and ceremonies, etc.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:38 Recently, in coming years, it has gained popularity in the States because it's
01:29:38 --> 01:29:41 found to be incredibly effective at curing opioid addiction.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:46 And so we know that, you know, when Black folks are dealing with an addiction, it's criminalized.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:49 When white folks are dealing with an addiction, It's considered a public health,
01:29:50 --> 01:29:55 issue, a public health crisis, and people are scrambling for solutions.
01:29:55 --> 01:30:00 So what Ibogaine does, I'm personally not completely familiar with all the details,
01:30:00 --> 01:30:05 but it essentially resets your physiological,
01:30:05 --> 01:30:10 composition, resets kind of like your brain receptors, that might not be the right word.
01:30:11 --> 01:30:16 It essentially returns you to a pre-addiction state and then opens up a multi-week,
01:30:17 --> 01:30:21 period where you can then replace that addiction with healthy habits.
01:30:23 --> 01:30:28 I will say that it is not the safest of psychedelics. Psilocybin mushrooms tend
01:30:28 --> 01:30:30 to have the lowest risk profile,
01:30:31 --> 01:30:36 But because of its ability to cure opioid addiction, states like Texas have
01:30:37 --> 01:30:42 dedicated or are looking to match $50 million in researching Ibogaine,
01:30:43 --> 01:30:47 similar to that executive order I mentioned that the federal government that
01:30:47 --> 01:30:53 Trump just signed is dedicating a minimum $50 million towards researching Ibogaine.
01:30:53 --> 01:30:58 So that's been very interestingly, like these psychedelics all of a sudden,
01:30:58 --> 01:31:03 that has really kind of risen to a spotlight that I had not predicted.
01:31:03 --> 01:31:09 All right. So I got a couple more questions in the space that we got. Sure.
01:31:09 --> 01:31:14 You have been privileged to travel to at least 46 countries in your life.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:17 What motivates you to come back home and continue to do this work,
01:31:17 --> 01:31:19 especially in this political climate?
01:31:20 --> 01:31:23 Yeah, that's a tough question. It's hard. It's definitely hard.
01:31:24 --> 01:31:27 Honestly, I think it's my love of Black people. It's the reason why I do everything.
01:31:27 --> 01:31:28 It's the reason why I live in Atlanta.
01:31:29 --> 01:31:35 I just really love Black people around the world, but especially Black Americans.
01:31:35 --> 01:31:40 And just the years that I have spent in our prisons, in our jails,
01:31:40 --> 01:31:44 doing diversion work, working alongside and fighting for formerly incarcerated
01:31:44 --> 01:31:48 Black folks, that is really what keeps me motivated, what keeps me going.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:56 You use the word privilege and I absolutely agree and I don't take that lightly I feel like,
01:31:57 --> 01:32:03 Oftentimes, Black people who have a certain level of privilege to leave,
01:32:03 --> 01:32:09 to do something else, to, you know, do anything else, really, a lot of times we do.
01:32:10 --> 01:32:12 And I don't blame the Black folks who do.
01:32:13 --> 01:32:21 That being said, from a very early age, I think I've always been very bothered
01:32:21 --> 01:32:27 by injustice and how certain people are treated as less than or made to feel as if they don't matter.
01:32:28 --> 01:32:33 And I think that over the years, decades, whatever it's been,
01:32:34 --> 01:32:36 I think I'm just at a point where I know too much.
01:32:36 --> 01:32:41 And we really, especially at this point, can't afford losing one more person from this fight.
01:32:42 --> 01:32:47 And so while I recognize that I have the privilege to move tomorrow,
01:32:47 --> 01:32:49 I can move to Barbados. I fantasize about it all the time.
01:32:50 --> 01:32:53 I also feel like in that privilege, I have an obligation to other people who
01:32:53 --> 01:32:57 look like me to not just leave folks behind.
01:32:58 --> 01:33:02 Yeah. Well, if you need somebody, I know a lady. I know a lady that can hook
01:33:02 --> 01:33:04 it up. She's been on the show twice.
01:33:04 --> 01:33:10 Oh, I love that. Finish this sentence. I have hope because. Yikes.
01:33:11 --> 01:33:16 I have hope because of people like my father. People who, you know,
01:33:16 --> 01:33:23 my dad is 82 years old and my entire life, I have seen him not let this world
01:33:23 --> 01:33:25 turn him into an angry shell of himself.
01:33:25 --> 01:33:29 I've seen him consistently show up for not just the people he loves and cares
01:33:29 --> 01:33:33 about, but people he literally does not know people, random people on the street.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:37 And, you know, sometimes it really is.
01:33:37 --> 01:33:41 I mean, those aren't little things, but it is, you know, the people close to
01:33:41 --> 01:33:45 you who keep you going and fill you back up that like that's what what keeps me going. It's.
01:33:46 --> 01:33:49 Yeah, that's my answer. Okay. All right.
01:33:49 --> 01:33:53 So you mentioned that you need some money for this Hood Exchange, right?
01:33:53 --> 01:33:57 So how can people reach out to you to raise money for the Hood Exchange?
01:33:57 --> 01:34:02 How can people reach out to you about information that MAPS is doing or just
01:34:02 --> 01:34:04 want to pick your brain? How can they do it?
01:34:05 --> 01:34:09 Yeah, thank you for asking. So folks can visit hoodexchange.org,
01:34:09 --> 01:34:14 which is H-O-O-D-E-X-C-H-A-N-G-E.org.
01:34:14 --> 01:34:20 You can also email me at SIA, S-I-A, at hudexchange.org to talk about HUD Exchange-related things.
01:34:21 --> 01:34:24 And then if you're interested in MAPS-related things, you can shoot me an email
01:34:24 --> 01:34:29 at SIA at MAPS.org or just go to MAPS.org. I believe that's at our website.
01:34:30 --> 01:34:34 MAPS, every other year, hosts the world's largest psychedelic conference.
01:34:34 --> 01:34:38 In 2023, it was about 12 people. Last year, it was about 8.
01:34:38 --> 01:34:42 We're hosting the same conference in May 2027 in Denver.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:45 It's been in Denver the last couple of times. And so if folks are interested
01:34:45 --> 01:34:50 in that, you can also check out the Psychedelic Science 2027 website,
01:34:50 --> 01:34:53 or like I said, you can also just shoot me an email and I'm happy to share more information.
01:34:54 --> 01:34:58 Well, I would put even money if in Kalshi or wherever those predictive things
01:34:58 --> 01:35:00 is, it'll probably be in Denver for a while.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:05 Probably. I would love to be in Atlanta, but that's just me.
01:35:06 --> 01:35:10 All right. Well, see you, Henry. Look, thank you so much for doing this.
01:35:10 --> 01:35:12 I appreciate the work that you're doing.
01:35:12 --> 01:35:16 I wish you much success, especially with the Hood Exchange.
01:35:16 --> 01:35:23 I really think that that is a noble effort to expose formerly incarcerated people
01:35:23 --> 01:35:27 and young people to travel outside of that comfort zone.
01:35:27 --> 01:35:31 You'll be surprised how many people here in Atlanta have never even left this
01:35:31 --> 01:35:36 city, and we have the busiest airport in the world. So I just commend you for
01:35:36 --> 01:35:39 all that. So thank you again and for coming on the podcast.
01:35:39 --> 01:35:41 Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
01:35:42 --> 01:35:44 All right, guys. And we're going to catch you on the other side.
01:35:56 --> 01:36:03 All right, we are back. And so now it is time to close this thing out.
01:36:04 --> 01:36:11 I want to thank Connie Di Cicco and Sia Henry for coming on the podcast.
01:36:11 --> 01:36:14 I hope that you learned a lot about those young ladies, you know,
01:36:15 --> 01:36:16 and the work they're doing.
01:36:16 --> 01:36:21 I really admire Connie for, as they say,
01:36:21 --> 01:36:28 sticking your toe in the water and running for office and staying engaged in
01:36:28 --> 01:36:34 the process and helping make sure that not only do we know stuff about,
01:36:35 --> 01:36:39 these data centers that's popping up everywhere,
01:36:39 --> 01:36:43 but just to keep people informed about issues.
01:36:43 --> 01:36:50 The organization she works with started off going after Amazon,
01:36:50 --> 01:36:55 and now that Amazon is getting into the data center thing, it just seemed like
01:36:55 --> 01:36:58 a natural fit for Connie to be involved with that.
01:36:58 --> 01:37:06 And hopefully she'll continue to do what she's doing. Same with Sia Henry.
01:37:08 --> 01:37:12 Sia, with her organization and the organization she works with,
01:37:12 --> 01:37:20 MAPS, dealing with these psychedelic drugs, hopefully you will do a little more research into that.
01:37:21 --> 01:37:26 I think what she's trying to do with it, because we've been hearing a lot of
01:37:26 --> 01:37:29 talk with these drugs dealing with veterans and trying to help them recover,
01:37:30 --> 01:37:36 but, you know, to deal with people that have trauma, period, especially black folk.
01:37:37 --> 01:37:41 Especially those who are formerly incarcerated. I think, you know,
01:37:41 --> 01:37:44 her angle in working with this group is vital.
01:37:45 --> 01:37:50 And then her other project, dealing with the Hood Exchange, the group that she
01:37:50 --> 01:37:52 started to allow people to travel.
01:37:53 --> 01:37:57 She's been very fortunate to be able to have traveled all over the world,
01:37:58 --> 01:38:02 and she wants other black folks to have that experience.
01:38:02 --> 01:38:09 And the plan was to get people who were formerly incarcerated to have that experience,
01:38:09 --> 01:38:12 but she started off with young folks.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:17 And I think that's a group that needs to be targeted as well.
01:38:18 --> 01:38:21 You know, because it's just all about imagination.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:25 It's all about broadening your mind and exposing yourself to things.
01:38:25 --> 01:38:34 And I think that's a huge problem in this country that we are not imagining.
01:38:35 --> 01:38:38 Not getting into that in a minute, but I just want to thank those young ladies.
01:38:38 --> 01:38:41 And both of them are based in the Atlanta area, by the way.
01:38:41 --> 01:38:49 And, you know, so it's really, really good to have to see people in Georgia,
01:38:50 --> 01:38:54 doing incredible work, as well as everywhere else in the country.
01:38:54 --> 01:38:55 That's the beauty of this podcast.
01:38:56 --> 01:39:01 Get to talk to people from all over. And it's just encouraging.
01:39:01 --> 01:39:04 Now, I do have an update about Wala Blegay.
01:39:06 --> 01:39:11 Walla did not win. She was in that race with Boafo.
01:39:11 --> 01:39:14 I guess I'm going to have to learn how to say his name, Boafo,
01:39:14 --> 01:39:17 because he's going to Congress.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:22 But Walla was in that race against him. I think she finished fourth.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:29 But she's still going to be a Prince County commissioner, Prince George County
01:39:29 --> 01:39:32 commissioner. So she didn't lose her job.
01:39:33 --> 01:39:37 In some states, you have to give up your job to run for office like Georgia.
01:39:37 --> 01:39:40 And in other states like Mississippi and Maryland, you don't have to give up
01:39:40 --> 01:39:45 your job to run for another office as long as you're, you know,
01:39:45 --> 01:39:47 you're, it's not in the same election year.
01:39:49 --> 01:39:53 So at least she'll still be in a position to serve and I congratulate her for,
01:39:54 --> 01:40:01 getting out there there were some circumstances in that race that I won't get into but,
01:40:02 --> 01:40:09 she did good and very very happy that she jumped out there to run it was an
01:40:09 --> 01:40:14 open seat seat that hadn't been open since the 1980s, I guess. Yeah.
01:40:15 --> 01:40:22 So, anyway, you know, and I still, we're still monitoring some of the other
01:40:22 --> 01:40:29 guests that have been on, that are running for things and give you updates just to go along.
01:40:30 --> 01:40:32 Prayers to the people in Venezuela.
01:40:33 --> 01:40:39 That are dealing with not one, but two earthquakes that happen back to back.
01:40:40 --> 01:40:46 And like they said, right now, they said the death toll is close to 500 as we're
01:40:46 --> 01:40:49 recording this, but they're projecting it to be much, much higher.
01:40:50 --> 01:40:55 So, you know, go to, you know, like the International Red Cross websites if
01:40:55 --> 01:40:59 you want to help out, that kind of thing. That's always where I guide people,
01:41:00 --> 01:41:03 to take care of circumstances like that.
01:41:04 --> 01:41:09 So anyway, let me just say this real quick, and then I'm going to end it.
01:41:09 --> 01:41:16 The Supreme Court came down with some decisions, and next week they'll have some more decisions.
01:41:18 --> 01:41:23 They have not tackled or have not shared their birthright decision yet.
01:41:24 --> 01:41:30 I am still optimistic that they're going to understand that the 14th Amendment
01:41:30 --> 01:41:33 applies to everybody and not just black folks.
01:41:34 --> 01:41:40 But, you know, we'll see how that plays out. We saw a lot of 6-3 decisions.
01:41:42 --> 01:41:47 And it looks like now there was one decision that they were unanimous in.
01:41:47 --> 01:41:51 That was this case called Pung versus Isabella County, Michigan,
01:41:52 --> 01:42:00 where basically the estate of this guy, Mr. Pung, they owed some money on taxes.
01:42:01 --> 01:42:07 And a previous court ruling had said that the surplus that they get from the
01:42:07 --> 01:42:11 auction, since they didn't pay the taxes, they put the property off for auction.
01:42:12 --> 01:42:15 There was a previous case that said that whatever surplus money,
01:42:15 --> 01:42:20 once the debt is covered, because a lot of times, and I know in Mississippi
01:42:20 --> 01:42:24 they did it because I worked at the tax collector's office, you know,
01:42:24 --> 01:42:26 whatever money they got, they kept it.
01:42:27 --> 01:42:30 And so the estate...
01:42:31 --> 01:42:36 Got some money back. Like I said, a previous Supreme Court ruling said that,
01:42:36 --> 01:42:39 no, it's like once the debt is taken care of, you got to give the extra money
01:42:39 --> 01:42:41 back to the estate, right?
01:42:42 --> 01:42:47 And so the estate got some money, and they got it at the auction price,
01:42:48 --> 01:42:53 and the Pung family wanted the fair market value back.
01:42:53 --> 01:42:58 And so a unanimous decision, the Supreme Court said, no, that's not how that works.
01:43:01 --> 01:43:12 You know, since y'all were, y'all precipitated the auction, then you got what you would get.
01:43:12 --> 01:43:16 The debt's been settled and then whatever was left, you got that back.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:23 So they wanted the remainder of, because I think the debt was only like $2. Yeah.
01:43:25 --> 01:43:30 And the family wanted the fair market value of the house, which was $190,
01:43:31 --> 01:43:36 and they sold it for like $76, $77.
01:43:36 --> 01:43:42 So they still got over $70 off of property that they had defaulted on the taxes.
01:43:43 --> 01:43:46 So they should have just took their ball and ran with it, and that's what the
01:43:46 --> 01:43:49 Supreme Court, all nine of them, agreed with that.
01:43:51 --> 01:43:54 You know, but there were some interesting decisions.
01:43:54 --> 01:44:00 The two decisions that go to one decision that's, well, it's two decisions that
01:44:00 --> 01:44:03 Mark Wayne Mullen would go down
01:44:03 --> 01:44:06 in history as winning because he was the plaintiff in both of those cases.
01:44:07 --> 01:44:10 I mean, yeah, yeah, he was a plaintiff.
01:44:11 --> 01:44:16 And the one case that's really, really disturbing people and getting people
01:44:16 --> 01:44:21 in uproar is the fact that they combined two cases, Mullen versus Doe and Trump
01:44:21 --> 01:44:26 versus Miat, to, well, I don't know.
01:44:26 --> 01:44:29 I had to think about who the plaintiff is and all that.
01:44:29 --> 01:44:32 But the reality, the gist of it is,
01:44:34 --> 01:44:44 is that 350 Haitians and 4 Syrians are no longer under TPS,
01:44:45 --> 01:44:46 temporary protective status,
01:44:47 --> 01:44:53 which means that as of today, federal government can ask these people to leave.
01:44:55 --> 01:44:59 And I don't think Syria is stable.
01:45:00 --> 01:45:04 I definitely know Haiti is not stable. But now they're sending these people
01:45:04 --> 01:45:07 back to this unstable situation.
01:45:07 --> 01:45:11 And, of course, the Haitian issue was a big issue because President Trump,
01:45:11 --> 01:45:16 when he was running for office at the debate, famously said that the ones in
01:45:16 --> 01:45:19 Springfield, Ohio, was eating cats and dogs.
01:45:19 --> 01:45:22 Y'all remember that? Remember that stupid thing he said?
01:45:23 --> 01:45:27 Well, so that put the Haitians on target.
01:45:28 --> 01:45:33 The thing that's really, really crazy is that they're kicking these folks out,
01:45:34 --> 01:45:38 but they're allowing these South African farmers who are not under any duress.
01:45:38 --> 01:45:43 The country is stable and they're giving them temporary protective status.
01:45:43 --> 01:45:49 Now, what's going to happen with them is that now that this decision is taking
01:45:49 --> 01:45:55 place, if they haven't already, now these people are going to be moved into the asylum part.
01:45:55 --> 01:46:01 They're going to start protecting them because they know, based on the Supreme
01:46:01 --> 01:46:05 Court ruling, that the next president, the next Democratic president,
01:46:05 --> 01:46:07 is going to go in and kick them all out.
01:46:08 --> 01:46:13 Right? That, you know, they shouldn't have been granted the status in the first
01:46:13 --> 01:46:20 place because, again, there wasn't any proof of any duress.
01:46:20 --> 01:46:24 Whatever proof they had was manufactured. It was a lie.
01:46:25 --> 01:46:30 Their country is not unstable. They are not experiencing discrimination.
01:46:31 --> 01:46:32 They are not being targeted.
01:46:33 --> 01:46:38 These people from Haiti, these people from Syria, they work.
01:46:39 --> 01:46:42 And that's the whole deal about the temporary protected status is supposed to
01:46:42 --> 01:46:49 allow people to come in, get situated in the United States, and then apply for asylum.
01:46:49 --> 01:46:53 Now, hopefully a lot of these people will go ahead and put in their paperwork
01:46:53 --> 01:46:55 for asylum if they haven't already.
01:46:55 --> 01:47:01 Because the next case, Mullen versus Al Ultralotto.
01:47:03 --> 01:47:10 Says that if you are still in your country and you apply for asylum, you can be rejected.
01:47:10 --> 01:47:16 You physically have to be in the United States to file for asylum.
01:47:16 --> 01:47:22 And the Border Patrol officers can turn you away, right?
01:47:23 --> 01:47:28 If they feel as though they're being overburdened or whatever,
01:47:28 --> 01:47:33 which on the border, the southern border of the United States,
01:47:34 --> 01:47:35 that's pretty much every day.
01:47:37 --> 01:47:44 So that case allows Border Patrol, Customs, INA, whatever.
01:47:47 --> 01:47:52 INS, I should say, they can just start turning people around.
01:47:52 --> 01:47:57 They can say they want asylum, but if they're not on U.S. soil,
01:47:57 --> 01:48:01 they can't do it. So what I'm hoping is that the Haitian folks will go ahead
01:48:01 --> 01:48:05 and, if they hadn't started the process already or the Syrians—.
01:48:07 --> 01:48:12 Then they can go ahead and do that and try to stay that way.
01:48:12 --> 01:48:19 But, you know, a lot of them probably can't afford the legal help or whatever,
01:48:19 --> 01:48:22 but I'm sure some people are trying to step in to try to keep them here.
01:48:23 --> 01:48:26 So we'll keep track of that, see how that's going to go, right?
01:48:27 --> 01:48:34 The other decision that my good friends from Pearson and Pearson brought up,
01:48:35 --> 01:48:39 was the case with Landor versus the Louisiana Department of Corrections.
01:48:39 --> 01:48:43 That was the case with Mr. Landor. He was a Rastafarian.
01:48:43 --> 01:48:50 He had dreadlocks. These two guards at the Department of Corrections decided
01:48:50 --> 01:48:54 that he wasn't going to have them dreadlocks in the prison.
01:48:54 --> 01:48:59 He tried to explain to them, and he showed them paperwork, that he was protected
01:48:59 --> 01:49:05 under the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000,
01:49:06 --> 01:49:10 and they basically ripped the paper up and shaved those dreadlocks off.
01:49:11 --> 01:49:19 Well, now the state of Louisiana, under that law, has given Mr.
01:49:19 --> 01:49:23 Landor, has agreed with Mr. Landor to settle.
01:49:25 --> 01:49:31 What Mr. Landor wanted to do was sue the guards that cut his hair and the Supreme
01:49:31 --> 01:49:33 Court said the law doesn't allow you to do that.
01:49:34 --> 01:49:37 You can sue the state, but you can't sue individuals.
01:49:39 --> 01:49:43 So it's a form of qualified immunity, right, for those officers.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:48 That's what the Supreme Court said. And that was one of those 6-3 splits on that one.
01:49:49 --> 01:49:55 Now, you know, I think, you know, those are the kind of decisions that you may
01:49:55 --> 01:50:01 not like with the Landor decision. But that wasn't a political decision.
01:50:02 --> 01:50:04 That was interpreting the law.
01:50:05 --> 01:50:13 And if we want to change the law, we can amend that R-L-U-I-P-A. We can amend it.
01:50:13 --> 01:50:18 But I say we, I'm talking about Congress. Let's just say they can amend the
01:50:18 --> 01:50:23 law where individuals can be personally valuable as well as the state.
01:50:24 --> 01:50:29 Then the Supreme Court will challenge, determine whether that's constitutional
01:50:29 --> 01:50:32 or not because somebody's going to challenge that if they do change it.
01:50:33 --> 01:50:39 But, you know, that was the case that we had highlighted the last time we had all got together.
01:50:40 --> 01:50:42 And so I wanted to update people on that.
01:50:43 --> 01:50:47 I was kind of rooting for Mr. Landor on that one because, you know,
01:50:48 --> 01:50:52 I couldn't find anything to find out what happened to those officers.
01:50:53 --> 01:50:54 It was implied that there was
01:50:54 --> 01:50:58 some disciplinary action taken on those officers for doing what they did.
01:50:59 --> 01:51:07 But didn't imply anything about them being fired or whatever the action was. It wasn't detailed.
01:51:08 --> 01:51:11 So, you know, I don't know.
01:51:13 --> 01:51:19 One thing I want you to understand about this group of folks that are in power now,
01:51:20 --> 01:51:25 like in some cases you can, like in the Landor case, it's a matter of interpretation,
01:51:26 --> 01:51:29 which is basically what the court is supposed to do.
01:51:29 --> 01:51:33 In other cases, you can tell there's some political overtones with it,
01:51:35 --> 01:51:36 especially the immigration cases.
01:51:37 --> 01:51:46 Pete Hexf is showing his racist colors every day that he's in office as the Secretary of Defense.
01:51:46 --> 01:51:53 Mark Wayne Mullen and Kristi Noem before him, with Steve Miller directing the
01:51:53 --> 01:51:57 band in the background, is showing their true colors.
01:51:58 --> 01:51:59 And here's my thing, right?
01:52:01 --> 01:52:05 And now we're getting to the point now where Donald Trump killed a bill.
01:52:06 --> 01:52:10 Well, he hasn't actually killed the bill, but he was supposed to sign a bill
01:52:10 --> 01:52:17 that the House and the Senate passed to deal with the housing situation in the United States, right?
01:52:17 --> 01:52:22 Because right now, the biggest problem, of course, you're kicking a lot of the
01:52:22 --> 01:52:26 immigrants out, so construction has slowed, right?
01:52:26 --> 01:52:29 The president has put tariffs on materials.
01:52:30 --> 01:52:35 It's raising the price of building the houses, so that's kind of slowed construction down.
01:52:37 --> 01:52:43 Now, the other thing is that these corporations, these large investment companies,
01:52:43 --> 01:52:48 are buying up properties and paying cash for them because people selling the
01:52:48 --> 01:52:49 house, they just want the money.
01:52:50 --> 01:52:57 These corporations are coming in and buying the house and then turning around and renting it out.
01:52:58 --> 01:53:03 And polling has showed that the majority of the American people want to buy
01:53:03 --> 01:53:06 a house because they want to have an asset, right?
01:53:06 --> 01:53:13 And it's actually cheaper to own a home theoretically because you're paying a mortgage.
01:53:14 --> 01:53:19 But it's cheaper to own a home, to have a home in your name, than it is to rent.
01:53:21 --> 01:53:26 And I was just listening to somebody talking about rent in New York City,
01:53:26 --> 01:53:29 like a two-bedroom apartment is like $4.
01:53:30 --> 01:53:35 Downtown Atlanta can get up to about $2. New York, $4?
01:53:35 --> 01:53:38 It's a lot of money to pay for an apartment.
01:53:39 --> 01:53:46 Now, a mortgage in New York is cheaper than, well, it all depends on where you stay in New York.
01:53:46 --> 01:53:50 I think if you stay on the island, it might be the same.
01:53:50 --> 01:53:57 But I think it's cheaper to own a home or a condo or whatever than it is to rent.
01:53:58 --> 01:54:02 So the president was supposed to sign that bill.
01:54:02 --> 01:54:06 And then literally at the last minute, he said, nope, I'm not going to do it
01:54:06 --> 01:54:10 because I want to make sure that people can't vote in this election.
01:54:11 --> 01:54:17 He wants the legislation passed that would basically wipe out nearly 70 million Americans.
01:54:18 --> 01:54:23 Where did I get 70 million? So with this SAVE Act that he's talking about,
01:54:24 --> 01:54:27 it wants you to show ID, right?
01:54:28 --> 01:54:32 Multiple forms of ID, not just your driver's license.
01:54:34 --> 01:54:39 Most of us, when we register to vote now, we register, especially with federal
01:54:39 --> 01:54:44 elections, we register once we renew our driver's license or obtain a driver's license.
01:54:45 --> 01:54:46 You're automatically in the
01:54:46 --> 01:54:53 system. And whatever name is on that driver's license is how you register.
01:54:54 --> 01:54:59 So, you know, some people change their license when they, especially women,
01:54:59 --> 01:55:03 when they get married, they change their license or fuck their name.
01:55:03 --> 01:55:04 But a lot of people don't.
01:55:05 --> 01:55:11 They just renew it. So now the law says that if the name doesn't match,
01:55:12 --> 01:55:15 and so you get a birth certificate and the name doesn't match,
01:55:16 --> 01:55:17 then you're not going to be able to vote.
01:55:18 --> 01:55:22 Now, if you got a passport with your married name on it, along with your driver's
01:55:22 --> 01:55:24 license, they can allow you to vote.
01:55:25 --> 01:55:28 If everything lines up with the address, all that stuff.
01:55:29 --> 01:55:32 But that's a poll tax, because now you're going to have people paying $150 to,
01:55:33 --> 01:55:35 get a passport just so they can go vote.
01:55:36 --> 01:55:40 It was the same like 20-some years ago when they were talking about changing the real ID.
01:55:41 --> 01:55:47 A lot of us got passports because we were told that if your state's ID doesn't
01:55:47 --> 01:55:54 conform to the real ID law, then you won't be able to get on a plane for a domestic.
01:55:55 --> 01:56:00 But of course, we had a government that could function back then.
01:56:00 --> 01:56:03 And so they negotiated and they compromised and all that stuff.
01:56:03 --> 01:56:09 And eventually everybody got their IDs, every state got their IDs up to the
01:56:09 --> 01:56:10 standard of the real ID law.
01:56:11 --> 01:56:15 And everything is kosher, right? So all you got to do is show your driver's
01:56:15 --> 01:56:20 license and get on the plane. Heck, you know, some states you can put your driver's
01:56:20 --> 01:56:23 license on the phone and check in that way.
01:56:25 --> 01:56:30 But now they're talking about with voting, you've got to have multiple pieces of ID.
01:56:31 --> 01:56:37 That's crazy. It was a battle already to just deal with the voter ID.
01:56:38 --> 01:56:44 Right? Excuse me. But now he wants to do that. He wants to end mail-in voting,
01:56:44 --> 01:56:46 even though he votes by mail.
01:56:47 --> 01:56:54 He said, well, I'm the president of the United States. I can vote by mail. And it's like, okay.
01:56:55 --> 01:56:58 But no other citizen gets that privilege. That's what you're saying.
01:56:59 --> 01:57:01 The military people won't have that privilege.
01:57:02 --> 01:57:04 They say, no, no, we're not saying anything about the military.
01:57:04 --> 01:57:10 Well, if you're trying to set a time and ask another Supreme Court case that's coming, right?
01:57:11 --> 01:57:17 So if the ballot for the soldier that's stationed in Okinawa doesn't get in in time.
01:57:18 --> 01:57:23 Because California gives you seven days, and most states are like,
01:57:23 --> 01:57:29 if it's postmarked, By election day, it'll be counted whenever it gets there, right?
01:57:30 --> 01:57:37 Now, in some cases, most of the races are decided by the time that some of those letters will come in.
01:57:38 --> 01:57:41 They'll count them and it will be in the final tally.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:48 But as far as, you know, deciding the election, the election may be decided
01:57:48 --> 01:57:49 already by the time the vote comes in.
01:57:50 --> 01:57:53 If not, then you wait, right?
01:57:54 --> 01:58:00 But, you know, California understands that they have millions of people voting.
01:58:00 --> 01:58:06 And so, and most of the people like to vote by mail. So they give them a week,
01:58:06 --> 01:58:12 just as long as it's postmarked by election day, within a week of the election, it'll be counted.
01:58:13 --> 01:58:19 And that's why it took a minute to figure out who was going to advance to the general election.
01:58:20 --> 01:58:23 Not the stupid stuff that Donald Trump's talking about, the stupid shit he's
01:58:23 --> 01:58:28 saying about it's rigged and all that stuff. It's not rigged.
01:58:29 --> 01:58:35 And he wants to take credit for the, he said he called California or something
01:58:35 --> 01:58:41 and all of a sudden Steve Hilton was on the ballot. No, he got enough votes.
01:58:42 --> 01:58:44 To be in the general election.
01:58:44 --> 01:58:48 You, Mr. President, didn't do a damn thing to make that happen.
01:58:49 --> 01:58:53 The voters of California decided that Mr. Hilton and Mr. Becerra would advance
01:58:53 --> 01:58:56 to the general election in November. That's how that works.
01:58:57 --> 01:59:02 You had nothing to do with that. No magical phone call, no magical press conference.
01:59:03 --> 01:59:08 You don't have anything to do with that. So, you know,
01:59:10 --> 01:59:17 so he decided that he was going to shut down an issue that needed to be addressed,
01:59:18 --> 01:59:22 so he can do more stuff to try to stop the election.
01:59:23 --> 01:59:26 Now, they've already tried to redistrict everything.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:35 In the middle, you know, in midterm. However, you know, it's like it's supposed
01:59:35 --> 01:59:40 to be every 10 years, but they wanted to redraw everything before this election.
01:59:40 --> 01:59:44 They've got the Supreme Court to approve certain decisions.
01:59:45 --> 01:59:51 And now they want to pass this bill to disenfranchise 70 million people at the minimum.
01:59:53 --> 01:59:57 Because all these women that get married, they're going to, you know, they change their name,
01:59:58 --> 02:00:02 they're going to be disenfranchised because their birth certificate,
02:00:02 --> 02:00:05 which not a lot of people keep their birth certificate around,
02:00:05 --> 02:00:09 but their birth certificate is not going to match their driver's license if
02:00:09 --> 02:00:11 they change their name legally.
02:00:12 --> 02:00:15 So there's that. Right? Right.
02:00:18 --> 02:00:20 They're doing all this stuff because,
02:00:21 --> 02:00:25 they're going to get murdered in the election if y'all show up to vote.
02:00:26 --> 02:00:31 And the president is banking on the fact that you're going to show up.
02:00:31 --> 02:00:35 So he's trying to do everything he can to alter it.
02:00:36 --> 02:00:39 And because it's all about him.
02:00:40 --> 02:00:44 Because he said he's been telling people, if the Democrats get control of the
02:00:44 --> 02:00:47 Congress, then they're going to try to impeach me again.
02:00:48 --> 02:00:54 But as I've said before, if you don't want to be impeached, don't do impeachable stuff.
02:00:55 --> 02:01:03 You know, these no big contracts. He wants to blame this imaginary boogeyman
02:01:03 --> 02:01:05 that magically snorkeled,
02:01:06 --> 02:01:11 from one end of the reflecting pool to the other with some kind of device to cut the bottom.
02:01:13 --> 02:01:17 That's why it's peeling at the bottom. No, because when you got up there and
02:01:17 --> 02:01:21 had a press conference, you said nothing was going to happen like that.
02:01:22 --> 02:01:25 You specifically said that it couldn't be cut.
02:01:26 --> 02:01:32 But now the paint is peeling off. The algae is growing. But it ain't his fault.
02:01:34 --> 02:01:38 President, you might be right. It ain't technically your fault because you didn't actually do the work.
02:01:39 --> 02:01:44 But the person you hired, it's definitely their fault because they didn't know what they were doing.
02:01:45 --> 02:01:49 And instead of opening the process up, you wanted to hook up one of your boys.
02:01:49 --> 02:01:56 And that's why they discourage hookups at the government level because of stuff like this.
02:01:57 --> 02:02:00 Right? And I've seen it. I've seen it up close and personal.
02:02:00 --> 02:02:06 We had this one company that was sucking up every state government contract,
02:02:07 --> 02:02:08 when it dealt with construction.
02:02:09 --> 02:02:13 And they had gotten so many contracts that they couldn't do the work.
02:02:14 --> 02:02:18 And the minute the state said, City of Mississippi said, yeah,
02:02:18 --> 02:02:22 well, we're going to pull this contract. These folks filed bankruptcy.
02:02:23 --> 02:02:28 So you had all these projects on hold because one company got greedy because
02:02:28 --> 02:02:30 they had a hookup, right?
02:02:31 --> 02:02:35 I had even introduced a bill to say that if you got so many millions of dollars
02:02:36 --> 02:02:40 in state contracts that you can't bid on anything else until you complete a
02:02:40 --> 02:02:44 project that will drop you back below that threshold. Right.
02:02:45 --> 02:02:49 At that time, I think it was like $10 million. If you got $10 million of state
02:02:49 --> 02:02:54 contracts to do projects, that should be enough.
02:02:55 --> 02:03:00 Do that job. Finish those jobs. and then you can rebid.
02:03:01 --> 02:03:05 That way other people will have a shot at getting a contract.
02:03:06 --> 02:03:09 Especially some of these black construction companies, right?
02:03:09 --> 02:03:13 But, you know, greed is...
02:03:16 --> 02:03:22 It's that avarice that makes capitalism terrible, right?
02:03:23 --> 02:03:27 And that's all we got going on. We got greed. We got racism.
02:03:27 --> 02:03:30 We got all sorts of otherisms going on.
02:03:31 --> 02:03:34 And that's what's causing the problem.
02:03:35 --> 02:03:38 If you can stop people from being greedy, which will be hard,
02:03:39 --> 02:03:44 if you stop people from hating, which will be hard, we can move forward.
02:03:45 --> 02:03:49 You know, all these people talking about these Christian ideas and all that,
02:03:49 --> 02:03:56 and, you know, they want the Ten Commandments posted, and every day they violate each one of them.
02:03:57 --> 02:04:01 You got a candidate running in Texas where they've mandated that the Ten Commandments
02:04:01 --> 02:04:10 is on every wall and every classroom in the state posted, and he's violated all 10 of them.
02:04:11 --> 02:04:15 Now, the murder one I can't prove, but I wouldn't put it back.
02:04:16 --> 02:04:18 But he's knocked out at least about seven.
02:04:20 --> 02:04:24 So, you know, we got to...
02:04:26 --> 02:04:31 Henry, when she put her program together for the Hood Exchange in her website,
02:04:31 --> 02:04:34 she talks about the imagination problem, right?
02:04:34 --> 02:04:40 And she was addressing the fact that, you know, people don't imagine themselves
02:04:40 --> 02:04:44 traveling, leaving the country, leaving the neighborhood that they live in.
02:04:45 --> 02:04:52 Atlanta has the busiest airport in the world, and some people have never left the city limits.
02:04:54 --> 02:04:59 So somebody had said that that was called an imagination problem.
02:05:00 --> 02:05:05 They can't see themselves just doing a basic thing like traveling somewhere,
02:05:05 --> 02:05:08 going somewhere different than where they live, right?
02:05:09 --> 02:05:12 We've got an imagination problem about how government works too.
02:05:12 --> 02:05:17 Government is not supposed to be this greedy, racist institution. It's not.
02:05:18 --> 02:05:22 It's supposed to be the arbiter of fairness.
02:05:23 --> 02:05:29 The government is supposed to be the last bastion for the little guy to look
02:05:29 --> 02:05:32 out for them because business has gone business.
02:05:34 --> 02:05:38 They're going to make money. So you need a referee. There was this famous sports
02:05:38 --> 02:05:41 announcer who used to say, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.
02:05:42 --> 02:05:47 And businesses try every day. They're trying to make money every day.
02:05:48 --> 02:05:53 So there needs to be an institution powerful enough to keep them in check.
02:05:54 --> 02:05:55 And that's what the government is.
02:05:57 --> 02:06:02 There are state governments that prefer certain citizens over other citizens.
02:06:03 --> 02:06:06 That's been proven throughout the history of this country.
02:06:07 --> 02:06:11 And so there needs to be an institution powerful enough to call those states,
02:06:12 --> 02:06:17 on the carpet and say, no, they're U.S. citizens first.
02:06:18 --> 02:06:24 And U.S. citizens should be treated this way. They just happen to live in your
02:06:24 --> 02:06:27 state, but they're U.S. citizens first.
02:06:27 --> 02:06:30 And they should be treated as such, right?
02:06:32 --> 02:06:35 So, you need government to do that.
02:06:35 --> 02:06:41 But the government has to be as close to impeccable as they should be.
02:06:42 --> 02:06:44 They should be, at the very least, fair and just.
02:06:45 --> 02:06:48 But when the government is corrupt...
02:06:49 --> 02:06:54 Her door. It's just everything's out of control. It's chaos.
02:06:55 --> 02:07:03 Insanity, impositions of power. But you, the American people, can change that.
02:07:04 --> 02:07:07 Now, I don't know what it's going to take for some people because,
02:07:08 --> 02:07:13 you know, I just get amazed like somebody I went to high school with posted,
02:07:14 --> 02:07:17 the Obamas didn't pay the contractors for the library.
02:07:18 --> 02:07:19 The Obamas didn't pay anybody.
02:07:20 --> 02:07:28 And it was like the foundation that was set up to build a library hired contractors,
02:07:28 --> 02:07:32 and contractors hire subcontractors. Now, what's going on between the contractors
02:07:32 --> 02:07:33 and the subcontractors?
02:07:34 --> 02:07:37 Barack and Michelle ain't got nothing to do with that. But I had a high school
02:07:37 --> 02:07:43 classmate put on there, a black woman, literally that lived a block away from
02:07:43 --> 02:07:47 me, say it was these black folks' fault that these people weren't getting paid.
02:07:48 --> 02:07:49 Put it out there on social media.
02:07:50 --> 02:07:51 And claims to be a Christian.
02:07:52 --> 02:07:59 I had a guy come on social media that was an elected official in Jackson and
02:07:59 --> 02:08:03 say that, yeah, they're sabotaging the pool.
02:08:04 --> 02:08:07 Antifa is sabotaging the pool.
02:08:08 --> 02:08:12 An elected official, somebody that's supposed to be intelligent,
02:08:13 --> 02:08:21 competent, is repeating the same bullshit that a man that has no empathy no
02:08:21 --> 02:08:23 contrition is spouting.
02:08:24 --> 02:08:25 That's insanity, folks.
02:08:26 --> 02:08:29 Because if you talk to these people, you know that it's like,
02:08:29 --> 02:08:33 well, you know, he does pop off. You know, he does say crazy things.
02:08:33 --> 02:08:38 Hey, that might be an indication that he might not be right for this job.
02:08:40 --> 02:08:46 He might agree with you on a particular point. Look, bro, can I be straight up with y'all?
02:08:47 --> 02:08:52 I can find people that are homeless, that if I talk to them about a particular
02:08:52 --> 02:08:54 issue, they're going to agree with me on something.
02:08:55 --> 02:08:59 I'm not going to turn around and put them on the city council in my city.
02:09:00 --> 02:09:03 I'm not going to elect a mayor of the city. I'm not going to elect them governor
02:09:03 --> 02:09:05 of the state. I'm not going to elect them president of the United States.
02:09:06 --> 02:09:13 My main focus is, brother, can we get you someplace to stay? Can we get you some help?
02:09:14 --> 02:09:17 I'm not going to put them in a position where they're making decisions about
02:09:17 --> 02:09:19 my life. That's just real talk.
02:09:20 --> 02:09:26 So why do we excuse this fool? Why have we given this crazy person,
02:09:27 --> 02:09:30 this person that is not fully human?
02:09:31 --> 02:09:34 Because if you don't have any empathy, if you don't have any contrition,
02:09:35 --> 02:09:37 if you don't have a soul, you're not fully human.
02:09:38 --> 02:09:43 Right? Now, all of us are supposed to have a soul, but a lot of people ain't in tune with it.
02:09:44 --> 02:09:49 And we don't need to put them in positions of leadership. We don't need pets
02:09:49 --> 02:09:52 of those kind of people in leadership positions.
02:09:52 --> 02:09:57 And when I say pets, I mean people that'll do anything to get fed and have a
02:09:57 --> 02:10:00 place to stay in that political party.
02:10:00 --> 02:10:02 Don't matter if they're black, don't matter if they're white,
02:10:02 --> 02:10:04 don't matter if they're Latino, don't matter if they're Asian,
02:10:04 --> 02:10:09 don't matter if they gay, don't matter if they straight, if you're espousing
02:10:09 --> 02:10:15 the thoughts of a fool, then you are a fool yourself.
02:10:16 --> 02:10:17 And I'm not voting for you.
02:10:19 --> 02:10:22 Hope that the majority of the people that listen to this podcast,
02:10:23 --> 02:10:25 if not all of you, agree with that sentence.
02:10:26 --> 02:10:31 And if you were inclined, or you have in the past voted for these foolish people,
02:10:32 --> 02:10:37 I admonish you to stop, because it is hurting all of us.
02:10:38 --> 02:10:42 Not just the people that you don't like, it's hurting all of us.
02:10:43 --> 02:10:47 Some of you are feeling that lesson right now, but you have the power to change it.
02:10:48 --> 02:10:55 We don't need a president that's committed to tearing stuff up or vandalizing stuff.
02:10:55 --> 02:11:01 Yeah, when you put gold plating all over the White House, that's vandalizing it, bro.
02:11:01 --> 02:11:06 Ain't nobody approved that. He literally has a gold sign saying the Oval Office.
02:11:07 --> 02:11:14 There's a reason why you didn't put a name on the part where the president sits. It's called security.
02:11:15 --> 02:11:17 You're just basically saying the terrorists are like, oh, see,
02:11:17 --> 02:11:22 it says Oval Office right there. That's where we need to go. Why would you do that?
02:11:23 --> 02:11:26 Your vanity is a byproduct of your insanity.
02:11:27 --> 02:11:31 You see where I'm going? Just basic stuff.
02:11:32 --> 02:11:36 And we got to shut all that down. And we got to learn from this lesson.
02:11:38 --> 02:11:42 There's some people who's like, it's amazing that America has lasted 250 years.
02:11:45 --> 02:11:48 Based on the last 10, I understand why they think that way.
02:11:49 --> 02:11:54 But all that can change. You have the power to do that.
02:11:55 --> 02:12:01 You can make that change happen. You are the change that you seek.
02:12:02 --> 02:12:06 All right, I'm going to end it on that. Thank y'all for listening. Until next time.