Build Your Thought Leadership & Freeman’s Challenge Featuring Coach Felecia Killings and Dr. Robin Bernstein

[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.

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[00:01:01] because it is time to make this moment a movement.

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[00:01:46] Hello and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.

[00:01:52] Today I am blessed to have two guests come on. One is going to talk about the conservative viewpoint

[00:02:02] of what's going on in this election and an exciting event that's coming up.

[00:02:08] The other is an author that has this very, very compelling book on a very, very important topic

[00:02:19] that needs to be addressed in America. We kind of put it on the back burner with a lot of other topics

[00:02:25] that we have to deal with, but this is something that needs to be addressed.

[00:02:34] This author found a very, very creative way to talk about the severity of this issue.

[00:02:43] So I look forward to these interviews. I look forward to you listening to these interviews,

[00:02:50] but before we do all of that, it is time for a moment of news with Grace G.

[00:03:04] Thanks, Erik. California lawmakers passed only one part of a three-bill reparations package

[00:03:10] with the session ending amid concerns from Governor Gavin Newsom. Four people were killed

[00:03:15] and nine injured in a shooting at Appalachee High School in Georgia

[00:03:19] with a 14-year-old suspect taken into custody. Israel recovered the bodies of six hostages

[00:03:25] killed by Hamas in Gaza, with Prime Minister Netanyahu vowing to pursue those responsible.

[00:03:32] Thousands of US hotel workers held strikes in several cities.

[00:03:35] Overstalled contract talks with major hotel chains during a busy Labor Day weekend.

[00:03:41] Vice President Harris emphasized a tough migration policy and support for Israel in her CNN interview

[00:03:48] while expressing willingness to include a Republican in her cabinet.

[00:03:52] Vice President Harris leads Donald Trump 45% to 41% in a new Reuters-Ipsos poll

[00:03:58] showing increased support among women and Hispanics.

[00:04:02] Donald Trump stated he would vote against a Florida amendment to enshrine abortion rights

[00:04:07] after previously causing confusion with his stance.

[00:04:10] A Texas woman was indicted for the attempted drowning of a three-year-old Palestinian American Muslim girl

[00:04:17] with charges including a hate crime enhancement.

[00:04:20] Pennsylvania's Commonwealth Court ruled that mailing votes cannot be discarded

[00:04:24] for incorrect envelope dates in Philadelphia and Allegheny counties.

[00:04:28] Ruby Freeman and Wondrea Shea Moss sued Rudy Giuliani, accusing him of trying to shield his Florida condominium

[00:04:36] from their $148 million judgment.

[00:04:39] A bus accident in Mississippi killed seven people including two siblings and injured 37 others,

[00:04:45] most of whom were Latin American passengers.

[00:04:48] And hunger in the US reached its highest level in a decade last year

[00:04:53] with 18 million households experiencing food insecurity.

[00:04:56] I am Grace G. And this has been a Moment of News.

[00:05:04] All right, thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.

[00:05:13] And now it's time for my first guest and that is Coach Felicia Killings.

[00:05:22] Coach Felicia Killings is an award-winning coach, bestselling author and CEO of the Felicia Killings Foundation.

[00:05:30] She is also the visionary and CEO of the Conscious Conservative Movement,

[00:05:36] a national outreach work that helps bridge the gap between black voters and conservative politics.

[00:05:42] Finally, Coach Felicia is an ordained minister, philanthropist, educator and motivational speaker.

[00:05:48] She is the principal coach of my beloved women's virtual ministry,

[00:05:52] which teaches women how to rebuild their lives after experiencing trauma.

[00:05:59] Coach Killings has been a regular on this podcast and I am so glad and so honored that she has decided to come on again

[00:06:09] to not only talk a little politics, but also talk about this convention that she's got coming up next month.

[00:06:19] So ladies and gentlemen, it's my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Coach Felicia Killings.

[00:06:38] Alright, Coach Felicia Killings. How are you doing, Coach? You doing good?

[00:06:43] Yes, I'm doing great. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:06:45] Well, it's always good to have somebody on that I respect greatly.

[00:06:51] Thank you.

[00:06:52] I know that we may not be on the same side of the vineyard, but I do know that you're a good worker.

[00:06:59] Thank you.

[00:07:00] And I definitely wanted to get your perspective based on everything that's happening.

[00:07:08] Plus, you got something coming up that I think is pretty exciting.

[00:07:11] So I wanted to get you on to talk about that.

[00:07:15] Sounds good.

[00:07:16] Yeah, but before we get into all that, you know my routine is we got to have a quote.

[00:07:23] So your quote comes from the Apostle Paul, his letter to the Church of Ephesus starting with the fourth chapter, seven verse.

[00:07:34] It says, But to each one of us, grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.

[00:07:41] Therefore, he says, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive and he gave gifts to men.

[00:07:49] Now this he ascended. What does it mean?

[00:07:52] But that he also first descended into the lower parts of the earth.

[00:07:56] He would do send it as also the one who ascended far above all the heavens that he might fill all things.

[00:08:03] And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists and some pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ.

[00:08:18] To we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.

[00:08:30] That we should no longer be children, toss to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine doctrine by the trickery of man in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting.

[00:08:41] But speaking the truth and love may grow up in all things into him who was the head Christ.

[00:08:49] What is that? What does that verse mean to you?

[00:08:54] Well, wow. Okay, so it's a powerful verse. I think that it's interesting because I recently started this new teaching series called Revival Begins in You.

[00:09:05] And that was one of the first verses that I shared with my audience in terms of looking at how the gifts that Christ has given to the church is designed to equip and edify every single believer so that they are functioning in their calling and grace

[00:09:23] and so that they are also building up the entire body of Christ and we are all working together. Paul also talked about how we all function differently.

[00:09:34] Some might function like the fingers, some might function like the arm and what have you.

[00:09:39] And the idea is to get us all working together, each one having a part and share in this great kingdom work, whether it is in the political space for some folks.

[00:09:49] If it's in business, ministry, community outreach or whatever, it does not matter.

[00:09:56] God has given us these various gifts and our responsibility is to equip other people so that they can function fully in their grace.

[00:10:05] And so that I was very, it's very interesting that you brought up that passage of scripture as I'm beginning this new teaching for my audience.

[00:10:14] Again, it's called Revival Begins in You.

[00:10:16] Well, you know, I'm a subscriber to the newsletter and that's one of my favorite verses because I remember as a young man going into the church and growing in the faith.

[00:10:31] That was one thing that, you know, our pastor was really stressing is that, you know, a lot of times parents if you had a gift or oratory or if you seem to have a strong leadership presence.

[00:10:46] A lot of parents were kind of pushing us to get into the ministry and so he wanted us to understand you don't have to be a preacher to do the work.

[00:10:56] Right?

[00:10:57] Yeah.

[00:10:57] You know, you don't have to be in the pulpit and so that that was a verse that he stressed and something I've carried on.

[00:11:05] And I'm glad you touched on the fact that, you know, with the work that you're doing is about, you know, if you apply that in the political realm, not everybody can be the candidate.

[00:11:18] Somebody's got to be the campaign manager.

[00:11:20] Somebody's got to be the treasurer.

[00:11:22] Somebody's got to be the field coordinator.

[00:11:23] Somebody's got to, you know, be the advanced person.

[00:11:27] You know, but you but everybody has a role and if you understand what your role is and embrace it then the campaign and everything is successful.

[00:11:40] So I know you incorporate a lot of your religious teachings and all that into the political work that you're doing.

[00:11:49] So let me ask you what is your impression?

[00:11:53] A vice president Harris.

[00:11:57] Okay, so just for your audience so they that they also know I retired my political consultancy stuff a week ago.

[00:12:07] Yeah, because I like I said I've been starting this new teaching series and God really has my focus there and particularly the evangelical church which is actually my main audience and why I talked heavily about republicanism.

[00:12:23] Conservatism, all those various things.

[00:12:25] So, but even with that said, I could say this, but when it comes to VP Harris, I never vote democrat.

[00:12:34] So that's just always been my thing.

[00:12:36] I don't I've never really saw some of their policies as conducive to my own individual self looking at history.

[00:12:44] We can say that not all these policies have been beneficial to black Americans.

[00:12:48] So when I look at her and I look at Democrats, I'm not.

[00:12:53] I don't know enough about their individual policies to say definitively that all of them are just absolutely destructive to to black Americans.

[00:13:05] I can see I can be honest about it and see that there there's reasons why some black Americans are going to vote for her and that's their prerogative right that's everybody's business but personally I would never do it.

[00:13:16] Now, notwithstanding all that she is she is running a very fierce fiery fire brand of a campaign just across this nation and it's very interesting to watch her go from this.

[00:13:32] This I guess you could say an underdog I guess into you know this kind of powerhouse where you know she has fabulous marketing the Democrat machine is under her.

[00:13:42] So I'm not going to lie. It's impressive as someone who has looked at certain campaigns.

[00:13:48] I'm like, why y'all didn't do this over here on this side.

[00:13:52] But with that being said, I have warned conservatives, especially those who are die hard Trump loyalist on this side.

[00:14:01] I warned them for five plus years that Kamala Harris was going to be a formidable force against Trump and this is when I said this in 2019 when she had first launched her campaign to be president.

[00:14:14] And all of them everybody was against me when I gave that statement they were just like no she could never do it you know they had all those negative stereotypes about her.

[00:14:23] You know all these disgusting derogatory stories and I said no she's going to be formidable against Trump because he absolutely does not know how to defeat her in a campaign.

[00:14:37] And honestly, if she had the Democrat machine under her in 2019.

[00:14:44] She probably she more than likely would have won in 2020 but she didn't have it right you know she it was Biden's it was Biden's yeah I'm gonna just leave it like that.

[00:14:52] But looking at her right now you can see you could basically see what I was talking about in 2019 like if she had had that the full weight of the machine under her and backing her.

[00:15:06] She would absolutely win and that's we're seeing evidence of that again I'm speaking very objectively I like I said I do not vote Democrat, but I do tip my hat to the marketing because it is absolutely fierce.

[00:15:21] And then you have to compare that with what we're seeing and witnessing from Trump's campaign, which is in my opinion just absolutely disastrous.

[00:15:32] So when you have one campaign is pretty solid and then the other one that's just floundering out here.

[00:15:39] I mean, you know, you're basically getting the results that you see today so that's my perspective on it.

[00:15:46] And again, I am not going to vote for her, but I see and understand why her numbers are increasing in the polls and even among you know different demographics who are interested in seeing the first female president.

[00:16:01] So tell the tell the audience again.

[00:16:06] Because you you you came to a conclusion that you don't support the Democrats.

[00:16:15] And and you but it's more or less not so much I'm against the Democratic Party or I'm for the Republican Party.

[00:16:24] You're a black conservative.

[00:16:27] And so because the Republican Party has lined up with and reached out to the conservative voices, you tend to vote that way and you've organized and especially in the black community trying to get black folks to vote that way.

[00:16:42] You kind of shocked me when you said I'm not doing that anymore.

[00:16:45] I was like really what you know but but I get it.

[00:16:49] Yeah, let me I should clarify.

[00:16:51] I'm on pause for right now until 2028 so I will pick it up back again with the next election but for right now I'm like I feel like and I know that there's this message that needs to get to evangelicals.

[00:17:05] So it has my attention at this point I wanted to make it to add that.

[00:17:10] Okay, all right you're on pause you're not in retirement okay.

[00:17:13] I get that so but but what what is the appeal and you've said it on the show before but kind of like you made it in fact that even though you you respect Vice President Harris, you can't vote for her because basically of your beliefs.

[00:17:33] So what is it about the Democratic platform is there particular issues as a particular concept what is it that you know turns you off the Democrats and are you still seeing even though you're not actively consulting and recruiting people like you were.

[00:17:58] Do you still do you feel that vibe in the black community, you know as far as you know that whether it does some of the things that turn you off turn black folks off is what I'm trying to get to.

[00:18:13] With regards to VP Harris.

[00:18:16] Well I mean just as far as the Democrats are concerned because you said I ain't I'll never vote for a Democrat so.

[00:18:22] Yeah, for people that people that think like you what what what is it what are the issues that turn you off.

[00:18:29] Oh okay, so my political background has always been servitism and republicanism is just pretty much all I know and I really got my grounding from my father who's also a black conservative and a black Republican.

[00:18:46] So there was no conversations about Democrat policies being, you know, effective for black Americans or profitable for black Americans those conversations were never in our household.

[00:19:00] So all I know is republicanism. Now with that said over the last almost a decade at this point, the more I have learned about the concept of progressivism and conservatism.

[00:19:13] The more I'm looking at even both parties and saying I'm only going to support candidates who are conservative candidates so I have on the right I have an issue with Ron DeSantis.

[00:19:26] I have an issue with him because he's too progressive in his republicanism. He has no problem using the arm of government to go after a corporation if that corporation espouses any kind of ideology that goes against what he wants you know what I mean to me that is progressivism it just happens to be on the Republican side.

[00:19:48] I can look at progressivism on the Democrat side and I can see how in these various communities that this big expansion of government power is crippling the economics within these areas whether it is you know coming after you know what I'll use the example of the pro act for example the.

[00:20:09] This is a policy at the federal level where they want to try and completely eliminate the freelance independent contract economy so I can look at Democrats and say alright you want to kill the freelance business which has been essential to me as a single mother when I wanted to

[00:20:27] homeschool my daughter and work from home like I needed the freelance economy I needed this independent contract economy to help me get back on my feet so I can look at both of these parties and see where progressivism is a problem for me.

[00:20:44] That's where I'm going to have conflict that's where it is really more so about the ideology versus the political parties and I can look at Trump as well and I feel like he is moving too far into this more progressive mindset and he's just happening to use our Republican platform.

[00:21:03] So I can look at it from from that ideological perspective.

[00:21:08] I wouldn't say so much that other black conservatives are going to go that deeply in terms of differentiating between both ideologies you'll see many more of them aligning with like you know just the parties themselves like oh I'm a Republican and so I don't know if I don't know if they feel like they're better than Democrats.

[00:21:28] Black Democrats or whatever but they're going to be more so in allegiance with a political party whereas I love conservatism.

[00:21:37] I just love it so very much and I want the essence of conservatism to be taught or at least presented to black voters who have never had these options and then I would say to them look for that conservatism in a candidate what is that candidate going to do if you give me a vote.

[00:21:58] What are they going to do in those particular terms.

[00:22:02] Are they going to expand government.

[00:22:04] Are they going to destroy the freelance economy like what is it that they're going to do and then make your voting decisions based on that.

[00:22:12] So that's where I come from when it comes to Democrats.

[00:22:16] I'm looking at how they're trying to choke my economy and because I'm in this particular industry.

[00:22:23] I'm always going to fight Democrats if they don't want me to fight them then they need to get rid of the pro act.

[00:22:29] They need to get rid of you know this push where they're going to make unions you know force us into the like they need to get rid of that but until they do it then it's like well I'm going to stay over here on this side.

[00:22:41] Yeah and you know I definitely understand that argument because it you know one of the beautiful things of having been in the legislative process is that we could push it.

[00:22:53] It's an idea and then once we start getting some feedback from other sides like we never looked at it that way right because one of the concerns.

[00:23:02] You know that's one of the concerns that has come up I know the intention was it really came from certain rideshare drivers who wanted to make sure that they had health care and wanted to make sure that they you know certain

[00:23:21] things because they figured with the money they were making they weren't going to be able to afford even a self insured plan right so that was kind of the genesis of that and then of course now it's going to affect people on Fiverr and everything else who didn't ask for that.

[00:23:39] So if the legislation does go through if it's in the process then I think it's going to have to be adjusted where it doesn't because it can't be a one size fits all.

[00:23:52] Yeah and that's a lot of times what happens in the legislative process so I'm glad you highlighted that particular one because a lot of people are like well what's wrong with you know benefits and all this kind of stuff it's like well.

[00:24:06] You know it's like California basically said well you know if we're going to do that then you actually are employers employees of Uber or your employees are left and they're like wait man no no no.

[00:24:21] Because then that means I'm going to have a schedule I got to do you know I don't have that freedom anymore so that's why you know when you flesh things out and sometimes that's why it's important to do things at the state level.

[00:24:35] Before you do it you know take it at the federal level because that's where the laboratory is and see how each state does that's how we got the affordable health care plan because Mitt Romney tested it out.

[00:24:47] In in Massachusetts that's why we changed the welfare to TANF because Tommy Thompson in Wisconsin tested it out so I mean that's that's you know when you when you can get the states to do things.

[00:25:03] Before it becomes federal you know then you know that way you can kind of see what impact it'll have before you just throw it out there so I'm.

[00:25:13] Go ahead.

[00:25:14] Oh I was going to add here the thing about testing it out in a state and then making it federal the only pushback in it I guess this is where my conservatism comes in.

[00:25:23] The idea is that what might work in California is just automatically going to work at the federal level for all 50 states I find that to be problematic.

[00:25:34] So if one state says that a type of pro act works for them.

[00:25:41] Cool they get to vote for that.

[00:25:44] They that like that's their Republic right they get to make those decisions but to force the rest of the nation to come under that same kind of law when it was never tested in our Republic.

[00:25:58] It was never voted on in our Republic.

[00:26:02] Like there was no fighting in you know Congress that you get what I'm saying when that happens and it becomes in my opinion a violation of my individual rights and for that reason.

[00:26:14] That's when I go to war and so that's my that's my pushback when it comes to this again that's probably where my conservatism pops up because I do not believe that something that might work in one state.

[00:26:26] Must automatically be applied to all states when it comes to some of these particular policies especially like when it comes to the independent contract economy.

[00:26:38] Right and in the other point well there's a couple other points I want to touch on before we get to the convention.

[00:26:45] You had mentioned about growing up in that household when I you know people ask me how did you become a Democrat even my great aunt who was a Republican to the day she died she she always was like how you become a Democrat and I was like my

[00:26:59] My precinct captain was you know my little lead coach I mean that's how I grew up in Chicago.

[00:27:05] It was just like you grew up in a conservative I grew up in a Democratic household I grew up you know and and it was like OK and of course I as I get older and all this stuff I see the warts as well as the good stuff.

[00:27:20] But you know that that was what kind of shaped my philosophy and you know watching the different presidents you know the watching how the Democratic presidents did as opposed to Republicans I was like yeah I kind of line up with those Democrats are doing you know and so

[00:27:50] I mean it's like you know when you go out and you talk about the ministry it's in the home when you talk about education the foundation is home the basic social structure unit the foundational unit is the home the family.

[00:28:02] And so if you have people engaged in and telling you know teaching folks how to do things.

[00:28:11] And you know it's like when it comes to political ideology there's no right or wrong it is this is how what I believe as opposed to this what you believe.

[00:28:21] And politics is supposed to be where we meet in the middle and figure out what's the best path for everybody right.

[00:28:28] But you know we compete to try to you know in the elections to try to sell our idea and then whatever people vote on then that's the direction we go right.

[00:28:37] But you know it's like but I think it's important for especially in black households to get a basic understanding that the develop a philosophy and as you get older.

[00:28:50] You go to high school you go to college and you run into people and you listen to folks and they kind of get your mind thinking a different way.

[00:28:57] Yeah, so be it.

[00:28:58] But at least at least you should have a foundation going in I think and I think the younger you are especially in a black community the better you are.

[00:29:09] Yeah, I agree.

[00:29:10] I agree definitely.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] And so the last point I wanted to because you made an interesting equation with Ron DeSantis is almost like you're saying progressivism equals authoritarianism.

[00:29:26] Yeah, I see progressivism as I just say big government right the bigger it is which means that means that somebody's going to lose a lot of rights at some particular point.

[00:29:37] So I could look at DeSantis in Florida and if the conservatives out there in Florida love him.

[00:29:45] Okay, cool.

[00:29:46] That's your Republic but DeSantis does not get my vote when it comes to the national level because I don't like his brand of republicanism.

[00:29:56] I prefer Brian Camps brand of republicanism and that brand actually appeals more to I believe Brian Kemp if I looked at the polls again.

[00:30:07] I think I saw like Brian Kemp had an approval rate among black voters at like 40 something percent close to 50% like that's super high when you're talking about black people and Republicans.

[00:30:18] So I prefer Brian Kemp's brand of you know conservatism or republicanism.

[00:30:26] I would vote for that at a national level.

[00:30:28] I would be more willing to evangelize something like that right but when it comes to DeSantis absolutely not like why are you why is black history being discussed as something that you intend to elements of it that you intend to ban.

[00:30:43] That's a problem for me.

[00:30:44] Why are you going after Disney as a corporation?

[00:30:49] Now I'm thinking are you the type to go after small businesses like these are the things that go on in my mind as a conservative.

[00:30:57] And for that reason, I cannot get behind somebody like that but there are so many conservatives on this side who do like what I call progressive republicanism.

[00:31:10] They love the strong arm of government to enforce whether it's their morality or what they want in terms of America moving forward.

[00:31:20] They are okay with government being as expansive as it possibly can be as long as it appeals to you know their idea of what conservatism is.

[00:31:31] So that is where that's where I do a lot of battling on the right with my fellow Republicans because I'm like this is not liberty.

[00:31:39] This is not freedom.

[00:31:41] This is just progressivism wrapped in a red cloak.

[00:31:46] So that's my perspective on it.

[00:31:49] Like I said, even when it comes to conservatives we're not a monolith.

[00:31:54] And for that reason, you know, I spent a lot of time battling on my own side rather than battling Democrats.

[00:32:03] Yeah, and the internal fights in party organizations healthy party organizations is good.

[00:32:10] And you know that's that's that's what you're supposed to do.

[00:32:18] Brian Kemp gonna run for governor.

[00:32:20] I mean not governor you're gonna run for president you're gonna run for you and set it.

[00:32:23] What you think?

[00:32:24] Oh, I need him to run for president like I already been pushing him.

[00:32:31] I already said this is the winning ticket for 2028 so they know they already know where I'm at.

[00:32:38] I know where to find you when you get back in you'll be you'll be like Kim train.

[00:32:44] I sure will.

[00:32:46] I mean it's gonna be loud and everything I will be in the streets I will have a camp shirt on all kinds of stuff because like I said I really value his brand of conservatism and republicanism.

[00:32:58] It will be so easy for me to sell that brand to black voters versus selling a disdain to his brand which would be very hard.

[00:33:09] So yeah, I want him to go for the president.

[00:33:13] I don't need him to run for Senate somebody else can do that.

[00:33:16] All right so let's talk about the convention this is the second annual CCM leadership convention.

[00:33:24] Talk about what the CCM leadership convention is why did you start it and why is it important.

[00:33:31] Perfect so this is a new project which is the part of the police Shaquille's foundation and our vision is to be this epicenter for rising leaders who have a national vision.

[00:33:45] And as I shared earlier in the podcast, it does not matter what industry a person wants to go in he or she can develop their leadership skills by understanding key spiritual laws and practical principles to really help them succeed.

[00:33:59] And so what we are doing with the foundation is we are empowering this new breed of rising leaders who are just really ready to do things God's way so they can get great results.

[00:34:09] And so every is actually going to happen every month starting this October.

[00:34:15] We're the first weekend of each month out here in Atlanta.

[00:34:18] I work with a group of rising leaders who whether they want to go into politics or they want to, you know, expand career wise or they want to start a ministry.

[00:34:30] I will help them in terms of identifying their key message, their audience and really packaging their ideas and book format just really growing into a leading expert within their particular field.

[00:34:45] So this is what we are doing now and we had our first one last year which was really great.

[00:34:50] I worked with, I want to say five or six individuals at that time in October will have another set about five or six.

[00:34:57] And so each month we're looking forward to just bringing more people into the fold who are interested in really growing and developing their leadership potential and bringing them before our audiences.

[00:35:09] So my audience on Twitter is like 20 something thousand out of me, but now I forget sometimes.

[00:35:15] But just sharing their work with, you know, on a national level helping them to get media appearances so that they can start whether it's attracting clients or getting speaking engagements.

[00:35:28] We will teach them how to really create the infrastructure for their God given vision.

[00:35:34] So I'm very excited about it.

[00:35:36] I love teaching, I love coaching and any leader, any rising leader who is interested, we invite you.

[00:35:44] So I know you had registration like basically through the summer like from April to August.

[00:35:51] Is it too late for people to sign up to get into the convention or how does that work?

[00:35:58] So the October one is closed, but we have opening for November.

[00:36:03] So if folks go to Felicia killings.org, they will be able to see the next open enrollment.

[00:36:09] So if they want to join for October, excuse me, November sessions, that one is now available.

[00:36:15] All right.

[00:36:16] So and if people want to follow the sessions because you mentioned on Twitter or X, however you want to call it.

[00:36:25] How do people do that?

[00:36:28] So the convention won't be broadcast on Twitter.

[00:36:32] That's just if they wanted to follow me.

[00:36:33] I do some sharing of some teachings here and there, but the convention itself will be located in Atlanta.

[00:36:40] It's in person only so they would have to register for that.

[00:36:43] It won't be virtual.

[00:36:45] Okay.

[00:36:45] So after everything said and done are you going to post it on YouTube or anything or is like you just got to be there.

[00:36:53] You got to be in the room to get it.

[00:36:55] You got to be in the room to get it.

[00:36:57] That's it.

[00:36:58] It is a very exclusive training.

[00:37:02] It is hands on.

[00:37:03] It is all day.

[00:37:05] You're going to get like a cool 25 hours worth of over the three day session, 25 hours worth of training.

[00:37:13] But you can only receive it if you're in person.

[00:37:17] Okay.

[00:37:17] So tell the folks again how to how to register for November and if people want to get in touch with you about getting signed up for the newsletter and all that kind of stuff, what they need to do.

[00:37:31] So folks can go to Felicia killings.org that's f e l e c i a killings.org and you can register for our November session.

[00:37:42] You can also follow me on sub stack at coach Felicia killings.substack.com.

[00:37:47] That's my newsletter.

[00:37:48] That's where the podcast is posted.

[00:37:50] I do a new teaching like a 30 minute to 40 minute teaching every morning, absolutely free over at the over on sub stack.

[00:38:00] But if you want that one to one training for your individual specific vision, join us this afternoon this November for our next leadership session.

[00:38:11] All right, Coach Felicia killings is always a pleasure and honor to have you come on the podcast sister.

[00:38:17] I am glad that you are following your calling, following the direction that God has given you to do this kind of work.

[00:38:25] I am honored to call you a friend and and you know the rules.

[00:38:30] So you've already been taking advantage of that you've been on this program several times and you're more than welcome to come on anytime that you want to.

[00:38:38] So thank you again for what you're doing and for being on the podcast.

[00:38:42] Thank you so much blessing.

[00:38:44] All right, guys, we'll catch y'all on the other side.

[00:39:10] All right, and we are back.

[00:39:12] And so now it is time for my next guest Dr Robin Bernstein.

[00:39:19] Robin Bernstein is a cultural historian who specializes in the history of race and racism over the past two centuries.

[00:39:26] She teaches at Harvard, where she is the Dylan Professor of American history and Professor of African and African American Studies and of studies of women, gender and sexuality.

[00:39:39] She wrote Freeman's challenge to murder that shook America's original prison for profit with fellowships from the National Endowment for the Humanities and Radcliffe Institute for Advanced Study.

[00:39:51] Bernstein's previous book, Racial Innocence Performing American Childhood from Slavery to Civil Rights won five awards.

[00:40:00] She has also written a Jewish feminist children's book, many prize winning articles and ob-eds and essays in the New York Times, the Chronicle of Higher Education and other venues.

[00:40:12] She recently received the Everett Mendelson Excellence in Mentoring Award.

[00:40:17] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr Robin Bernstein.

[00:40:40] All right, Dr Robin Bernstein.

[00:40:45] I said the name correctly, right?

[00:40:48] You did, yes.

[00:40:49] Okay, I did. You know, I do not have problems with people correcting because you'll be surprised how many times people have mispronounced or misspelled my name.

[00:40:59] So I'm very sensitive to that.

[00:41:01] So Dr Bernstein, first of all, I'm honored that you took the time to come on this podcast and we're going to be talking about your book, Freeman's Challenge, The Murder That Shook America's Original Prison for Profit.

[00:41:18] But before we do that, I have a quote for you.

[00:41:23] And I want you to tell me what this quote means to you.

[00:41:27] It says, no one truly knows a nation until one has been inside its jails.

[00:41:33] A nation should not be judged by how it treats its highest citizens, but its lowest ones.

[00:41:39] What does that quote mean to you?

[00:41:41] Well, the first thing that I want to say is that I think that's absolutely true.

[00:41:45] I think prisons and jails and carceral systems are mirrors of a nation's values.

[00:41:53] And one of the values that comes out in Freeman's Challenge is the value of capitalism.

[00:42:01] My book is about how capitalism and incarceration got knitted together.

[00:42:06] There's nothing natural.

[00:42:08] There's nothing inevitable about that connection.

[00:42:11] But they, in fact, got knit together and they got knit together in the north, not the south, long before the Civil War.

[00:42:19] So I think that that quote really reflects the absolute truth that if we look to prisons in the United States right now, what we're going to see is capitalism.

[00:42:33] And I think that's exactly what is most important in the United States right now.

[00:42:38] That's the soul of the United States.

[00:42:40] So is that what led you to write this particular book?

[00:42:45] I was led to write this book because I found I learned some things that surprised me.

[00:42:50] I stumbled across the story of William Freeman, which is a story that has not been told very much at all.

[00:42:57] I stumbled across his life in a footnote and I stumbled across this youth, this teenager who challenged the original prison for profit who was incarcerated in the Auburn State prison at the age of 15.

[00:43:15] This was the original prison that connected capitalism and incarceration.

[00:43:21] He was forced to work and he rebelled.

[00:43:25] And when I read this story, I thought, how could this be?

[00:43:32] I always was taught that prison for profit, convict leasing, carceral slavery all began in the south long after the Civil War.

[00:43:42] I thought, how is it that this youth in 1840 was challenging prison for profit in New York State?

[00:43:50] Who was he?

[00:43:51] And this changes the story that I've received about the history of prisons and the history of capitalism and also regional difference.

[00:44:00] So I was so surprised and so interested and I just had to learn more.

[00:44:05] So I just kept pulling the thread and pulling the thread and the story just got more and more interesting as I kept learning more.

[00:44:14] So talk about William Freeman going to a little more detail about who this young man was.

[00:44:20] William Freeman was African American and also Native American and he grew up in Auburn, New York, which is a small was at the time a small town in Central New York State.

[00:44:33] It was also the location of the very first profit driven prison.

[00:44:38] It was the location of the prison that invented the idea that a prison can exist fundamentally to change the economy of a region.

[00:44:50] Now, to us, that's really self-evident.

[00:44:52] But the only reason it's self-evident is because a group of white entrepreneurs, white businessmen in Auburn, New York invented this diabolical idea.

[00:45:02] So William Freeman grew up in a close knit African American family.

[00:45:07] He was part of the most prominent black family in town and he grew up right next to this prison.

[00:45:14] And when he was 15 years old, William Freeman was accused of stealing a horse.

[00:45:21] He insisted he didn't do it.

[00:45:23] There was no conclusive evidence against him, but it didn't matter.

[00:45:27] He was tried, he was convicted and he was sentenced to five years hard labor in the Auburn State prison.

[00:45:36] And this was a prison that in that enclosed factories within its walls.

[00:45:41] There were factories built right into the prison and this is 1840.

[00:45:46] So he is set to work in these factories where what he's doing is he's forced for 12 hours a day to manufacture consumer goods

[00:45:56] for private companies.

[00:45:58] Private companies are running these factories in New York State in 1840.

[00:46:04] And William Freeman is forced to work 12 hours a day filing iron for animal harnesses.

[00:46:12] And he was furious and he rebelled.

[00:46:18] Now, talk a little bit more about the Auburn State prison as far as its significance.

[00:46:25] One is one of the oldest, it's still in existence, the Auburn State prison.

[00:46:32] So it's one of the oldest prisons that still operates in the United States.

[00:46:38] You know, you talked a little bit about the factories being inside and the symbolism of well, you know, as far as capitalism.

[00:46:47] But talk about the significance of the prison itself, what it did for that little sleepy town of Auburn.

[00:46:57] And created this whole conversation about the prison system in America.

[00:47:04] Yeah, so I'll start with the present. You're absolutely right.

[00:47:07] The Auburn State prison is still functional operating. It is now called the Auburn Correctional Facility.

[00:47:14] It is the oldest continually operating maximum security prison in the United States.

[00:47:20] And it is the prison that invented the idea that a prison's primary goal can be financial.

[00:47:28] That the primary goal can be not to administer justice, not to reform people, help people become better,

[00:47:38] not even to punish people, but instead to benefit, to economically benefit people who are not incarcerated.

[00:47:48] So the Auburn State, so Auburn was a tiny, tiny little town.

[00:47:52] And until this group of white entrepreneurs got this idea to build a prison in order to transform the town into a city.

[00:48:03] That was their goal. They were businessmen. They wanted to have greater markets for their own goods.

[00:48:09] They wanted money to flow into the town. They wanted to build things like banks.

[00:48:14] So at the time, and this was 1816, at the time New York State was offering a contract to build a prison.

[00:48:23] At the time, New York had only one prison. It was in New York City. It was overrun and it was also notoriously corrupt.

[00:48:31] So the state wanted to build a second prison.

[00:48:34] So it offers $20,000 to any group that will build the prison.

[00:48:40] And the state was really just thinking we need a new prison. We need to have another space in which to punish people,

[00:48:49] another space in which to reform people. That was their thinking.

[00:48:53] But these entrepreneurs, they got this idea. They realized that $20,000 is a huge amount of money.

[00:48:59] Today it's a huge amount of money. But at the time, that was about the equivalent of half a million dollars today.

[00:49:05] And Auburn had at the time about 2,000 people.

[00:49:09] So when you think about it, if you take a tiny little village of 2,000 people and you flood it with half a million dollars all at once,

[00:49:17] with more money to come every year in perpetuity, it's going to completely transform the economy.

[00:49:25] And again, that's obvious to us. But this was at the time a radical idea.

[00:49:30] So this is what they created. So they created the system where the whole purpose was to suck money out of the state and use it to build up their town.

[00:49:42] But then they got a second idea. Their second idea. And remember, this is the same group of people, these white businessmen.

[00:49:48] They got this second good idea, which was while we're sucking money out of the state, let's also suck labor out of the incarcerated people.

[00:50:01] So they built these factories right into the prison and they built the prison on the side of a river for the purpose of harnessing water power that could run the factories.

[00:50:11] So what they did was they build these factories right into the prison. They build the prison right near a source of water power.

[00:50:19] And then they have these incarcerated people who they then forced to work in these factories, manufacturing consumer goods.

[00:50:28] And then they get another idea, these from private companies to lease the prisoners' labor.

[00:50:36] So they're getting money from all these different flows of money. They're getting money from the private companies, which are paying them for the prisoners' labor.

[00:50:48] Meanwhile, the prisoners are getting not one penny. They're getting the labor out of the prisoners. They're getting state funding.

[00:50:55] All this money is coming in and it transforms Auburn from a village into a city. It makes the entrepreneurs wealthy.

[00:51:03] And that is the origin of prison for profit in the United States.

[00:51:10] Yeah, and some of the ancillary things was like a medical school developed because of the prison.

[00:51:20] I think it was a private school. I can't remember if it became a college or not, but I know it was a private school that developed up there too.

[00:51:31] And the position was, if you lived in the original black community of New Guinea, you were literally directly across the river from where the prison was.

[00:51:46] That's right. There was an African-American neighborhood in Auburn. It was called New Guinea, as you said.

[00:51:51] And it was actually established by William Freeman's grandparents, which is part of the reason that he was part of this really prominent black family.

[00:52:00] His grandparents were revered as founders of the black community.

[00:52:06] And New Guinea is right across the river from the Auburn State Prison. You can't actually see the prison from New Guinea.

[00:52:13] It's a little further than that. It's a little bit over a mile, but it's close, close by.

[00:52:19] And the prison was then and is still today in a lot of ways, the heart of Auburn.

[00:52:26] Yeah, so that leads into my next question, which was, well, before I ask that question, explain the difference between the Auburn system and the Philadelphia system of incarceration.

[00:52:43] Yeah. So these were two competing ideas about what a prison should be in the 19th century.

[00:52:50] So the Pennsylvania system was based on the idea that the main purpose of a prison should be to reform prisoners, to help prisoners become better people.

[00:53:02] And in particular, to Christianize them, to help them find God and to help them find Christ.

[00:53:07] And the Pennsylvania system was established by Quakers, who were very sincere in their desire to help prisoners become better people.

[00:53:19] Their concept of how to do that, how to accomplish that very worthwhile goal was terrible.

[00:53:28] Their concept was to put every prisoner in solitary confinement permanently.

[00:53:36] And their idea was that if you took a wrongdoer and put him in a prison, in a prison cell, all by himself with nothing but a Bible and maybe a little bit of peace work to do.

[00:53:50] What would happen is he would read the Bible and he would come to repent his wrongdoing.

[00:53:58] He would do the peace work, that is to say a little bit of manufacturing peace work, not for the purpose of creating profit, but for the purpose of teaching him good work skills.

[00:54:08] And then he would leave the prison and he would be a better person.

[00:54:12] That was the concept.

[00:54:13] Now of course what we know is that solitary confinement is torture and that solitary confinement causes mental breakdowns.

[00:54:23] It causes people to go mad.

[00:54:27] It causes terrible health problems because it is torture.

[00:54:30] And that is exactly what happened in the Pennsylvania system.

[00:54:34] Now the Auburn system had certain things in common with it, but it had a totally different concept.

[00:54:40] So in Auburn, the founders of the Auburn prison did not give a darn about reform.

[00:54:46] They did not give a darn about whether prisoners became better in any way during their incarceration.

[00:54:54] And these are the founders of the prison.

[00:54:56] I should say that some later administrators of the prison at least did give lip service to reformation, but the early ones didn't even bother to give it lip service.

[00:55:07] For them, the purpose of a prison was to generate profits and to stimulate an economy.

[00:55:14] Now how they did it had certain things in common with the Pennsylvania system, but had certain important differences.

[00:55:19] So they also used solitary confinement.

[00:55:23] At the Auburn state prison, prisoners were put into solitary confinement individual cells every night.

[00:55:30] Now for 12 hours.

[00:55:31] Now what's really important to know is that that was not understood as a form of punishment.

[00:55:38] That was the purpose of the solitary confinement was to prevent incarcerated people from rebelling against their forced labor in factories.

[00:55:48] Because remember they were not getting any payment whatsoever for their labor.

[00:55:53] They weren't getting any kind of benefits.

[00:55:55] They weren't getting special privileges.

[00:55:57] They weren't getting early release, literally nothing.

[00:56:00] And it's really hard to force people to work for literally nothing.

[00:56:05] So there's only really two ways to force people to do that.

[00:56:09] One is through extreme social control and the other is through violence.

[00:56:15] So that's what the Auburn system did.

[00:56:19] So it put people into solitary confinement every night, not for the purpose of punishing them, but for the purpose of maintaining control.

[00:56:26] And then every morning they were marched out of their cells into factories where they work together to manufacture these consumer goods.

[00:56:38] But in these factories, and this is so hard to take in, in these factories that they were not permitted to speak ever.

[00:56:48] And it is so hard to actually comprehend that they were not allowed to speak to each other ever.

[00:56:57] And they weren't even allowed to speak to guards unless they were spoken to first.

[00:57:01] And the purpose of that again was not torture, although it was torture, but that was not the purpose.

[00:57:08] The purpose was social control in order to enable productivity.

[00:57:14] The purpose was capitalism.

[00:57:17] And they also were not allowed to look at each other's faces ever.

[00:57:22] So when William Freeman entered the Auburn State Prison at the age of 15, he was basically told,

[00:57:29] you are not going to speak again until you are 20 years old.

[00:57:35] It is so painful to take that in, but that was the Auburn system.

[00:57:43] Yeah, and then Auburn had some other methods too like the cat and nine tails or the whips.

[00:57:53] And this thing called the shower bath I think or something like that.

[00:57:57] Those were kind of means of control as far as punishment.

[00:58:01] But so I want to get back to the question about African Americans because the location of Auburn was very important as far as African Americans were concerned because it was close to Canada.

[00:58:23] And so there was a lot of near Niagara Falls, Buffalo, all that.

[00:58:29] Because I want to say it's in between Syracuse and Rochester.

[00:58:34] That kind of my geography.

[00:58:36] All right, so all that was kind of a hotbed as far as the Underground Railroad.

[00:58:43] I think in the book, as a matter of fact, one of Luke's, I mean Luke,

[00:58:48] William's relatives, Luke, was a major conductor, I guess for lack of a better term in the Underground Railroad.

[00:58:55] So it leads me to this question.

[00:58:59] What was the paradox between the application of full citizenship, citizenship for blacks and African Americans and the disproportionate imprisonment of blacks at Auburn State Prison?

[00:59:15] Right. Yeah, that's that's a wonderful question.

[00:59:17] So Auburn was really important in terms of abolition because exactly as you say it was an important site on the Underground Railroad.

[00:59:27] Harriet Tubman settled in Auburn in the 1850s and she lived there until her passing in 1913.

[00:59:35] And the reason that Harriet Tubman came to Auburn in the first place was because it was part of the Underground Railroad.

[00:59:42] So Auburn had this really strong abolitionist history and a lot of self emancipated people lived there.

[00:59:51] And actually during William Freeman's incarceration, which was from 1840 to 1845, those were particular years when a lot of self freed people came to Auburn and settled in Auburn

[01:00:03] and really transformed Black Auburn because there were so many of them coming.

[01:00:09] They were really creating a very different community.

[01:00:12] And by the time William Freeman left the prison, Black Auburn had become very different and would Auburn had also become very different during that time.

[01:00:22] So yeah, so you had this place that was in some ways so freedom loving.

[01:00:26] And William Freeman's uncle, as you said, his uncle Luke was a major influence on the Underground Railroad.

[01:00:38] Luke's son, Birgit, was also involved with the Underground Railroad.

[01:00:42] So there was a lot of freedom loving in Auburn and yet Auburn was the site of this new form of unfreedom.

[01:00:52] And that was a paradox that everybody in Auburn lived with.

[01:00:56] And for the most part, people didn't see it as a contradiction and this is really difficult to understand in retrospect.

[01:01:05] But the prison was seen mostly in positive terms including by the Black community because the prison was actually stimulating the economy.

[01:01:15] It was doing exactly what it was designed to do.

[01:01:18] And a lot of people including Black people were doing pretty well financially as a result of this prison being in the town.

[01:01:29] And so that buys a lot of consent and there's a really important lesson here, I think, which is that when people are doing pretty well economically,

[01:01:40] they can consent to things that under other circumstances they find reprehensible.

[01:01:45] And that is very much what was happening in Auburn.

[01:01:49] Yeah, and one of the other things you pointed out in the book was that the prison itself was kind of a weird symbol of the ascertainment of rights because those who were advocating for citizenship was part of that application was they wanted to have fair trials.

[01:02:15] And so the prison symbolized the fact that the justice system actually worked in that kind of weird esoteric sense instead of dealing with the horrors that were going on in there.

[01:02:30] It was just the fact that well, prior to this prison and prior to us getting rights, it was like they caught us, they were going to hang us on a tree.

[01:02:40] They weren't going to take us before a magistrate or whatever.

[01:02:42] So I thought that really hit me when I read that.

[01:02:48] I was like, wow, you know, the other piece that you talked about about the money part.

[01:02:54] I've dealt with that firsthand being a state legislator in Mississippi with the private prisons and literally members, black members couldn't vote against these private prisons because their family members were working there.

[01:03:07] So the capitalism piece was one, but the thought that that prison symbolized freedom in a sense of a fair judicial system.

[01:03:19] I was like, hmm, I guess in 1840 you would think like that, but you know, but that's a whole other we could probably do a whole other show about that.

[01:03:28] Yeah, that's certainly not how we would see it today.

[01:03:30] But in the at the time in 1840, that is how people saw it.

[01:03:35] But that's a really big difference from how we think today.

[01:03:38] Yes, ma'am.

[01:03:40] Talk about William Henry Seward and how did the Auburn State Prison impact him?

[01:03:47] And you're really like the second author that I've that I've interviewed that had him as somewhat of a background character.

[01:03:56] He has more of a role in this book than the previous one.

[01:04:00] But since it was a part that part of New York State upstate New York and he was such a prominent figure, just kind of talk about who he was and how this how he plays in the story.

[01:04:15] Sure.

[01:04:16] So in the 1840s, William Henry Seward was best known for having been the two time governor of New York State.

[01:04:23] So that was his claim to fame at the time.

[01:04:26] Now, of course, 20 years later, he would become the Secretary of State to Abraham Lincoln and he would also 20 years after my book ends, he would he would broker this set the purchase of Alaska.

[01:04:41] So if you've ever heard of Seward's folly, that's him.

[01:04:45] This is William Henry Seward.

[01:04:46] So at the time, he was one of the architects of the Auburn State Prison.

[01:04:52] He was not one of the founders of it, but he was one of its supporters.

[01:04:57] And one thing to know about the Auburn State Prison is that it was very important to New York State party politics.

[01:05:03] Basically, the parties, the wigs and the Democrats fought their battles in part through the prison.

[01:05:10] So William Henry Seward was a wig and he was he was a progressive and he supported the prison very strongly and he supported it in a lot of different ways.

[01:05:22] And he was doing this in part because this is how he was brokering power in New York State.

[01:05:29] His hands with the prison were partially responsible for him getting elected to governor of New York State.

[01:05:35] And so he was deeply involved in the in the prison.

[01:05:40] And then by the time William Freeman left the prison, when William Freeman was rebelling against the Auburn State Prison,

[01:05:50] he rebelled in a lot of different ways.

[01:05:53] He resisted first through words which was incredibly brave because as I said,

[01:05:58] prisoners in the Auburn State Prison were not permitted to speak.

[01:06:02] So just the fact that William Freeman spoke up and said he didn't want to work for no pay was astounding and brave.

[01:06:10] So he fought back first with words.

[01:06:13] He also fought back with actions in the Auburn State Prison.

[01:06:16] He fought back by, for example, deliberately working poorly, which a lot of people in the prison did.

[01:06:21] And then after he got out of prison, William Freeman resorted to violence.

[01:06:28] And that's the murder that's in the title of the book, Freeman's Challenge,

[01:06:34] The Murder That Shook America's Original Prison for Profit.

[01:06:37] So William Freeman did commit a violent act as a resistance to the Auburn State Prison.

[01:06:44] And that's when William Henry Seward got directly involved in William Freeman's life.

[01:06:50] By this point, Seward was the ex-governor.

[01:06:53] He was a lawyer living in Auburn and he decided to take William Freeman's case pro bono.

[01:07:00] And he represented William Freeman in court.

[01:07:03] And that's where William Henry Seward becomes a very important figure,

[01:07:08] especially in the second half of Freeman's Challenge.

[01:07:12] Yeah. And not to give away a book because I want people to read it, but it's like what William did.

[01:07:21] I like the way that you use parallels of things that were happening in history,

[01:07:28] even though you really couldn't read his mind just to kind of put into context

[01:07:33] what was going on in that community, in the United States really,

[01:07:39] to kind of rationalize why he would rebel the way he did once he got out of prison.

[01:07:46] I thought that was very, very effective in that.

[01:07:52] Real quick, you talked about the conflict between the tradesmen in the prison.

[01:07:59] Do you draw a parallel with those protests and the current complaints to the 21st century prison industrial complex?

[01:08:08] Oh, that's interesting.

[01:08:11] So there were a group of white artisans, that is to say white people outside of the prison

[01:08:18] who manufactured some of the same goods that were being manufactured inside the prison.

[01:08:24] And they also resisted the Auburn State prison.

[01:08:28] They resisted prison for profit, but for very different reasons.

[01:08:31] William Freeman was resisting it because it was wrong.

[01:08:35] William Freeman was resisting it because he did not want his labor to be stolen from him.

[01:08:41] He basically did not want to be enslaved.

[01:08:44] William, remember this is 1840.

[01:08:46] This is a United States where slavery exists.

[01:08:49] Slavery still exists in the north in 1840, in Connecticut for example.

[01:08:55] So his grandparents had been enslaved, his father had been enslaved,

[01:09:00] and here he is put into the Auburn State prison for a crime he said he didn't commit,

[01:09:05] and he's forced to work.

[01:09:07] And they actually used the word slavery.

[01:09:09] The Auburn State prison called prisoners, quote, slaves of the state.

[01:09:14] And that's what William Freeman was resisting and challenging.

[01:09:19] Now the white artisans outside of the prison had a completely different critique.

[01:09:24] The white artisans outside of the prison were basically angry

[01:09:27] that prisoners were making prison-made goods for less money,

[01:09:33] or I mean the prisoners were getting no money at all,

[01:09:36] but because their labor was cheap,

[01:09:39] the goods could be sold for less than the artisans could afford to sell their goods.

[01:09:45] So if you make carpets, for example,

[01:09:48] and you are a free white person outside of the prison and you are making carpets,

[01:09:52] and meanwhile there are incarcerated people of all races making carpets

[01:09:57] for no money inside the prison,

[01:10:00] those carpets are going to cost less than your carpets.

[01:10:03] And that's why the white artisans also challenged the prison,

[01:10:09] but they challenged it only on the basis of competition.

[01:10:15] And so the compromise that the state of New York made eventually

[01:10:21] with these white artisans was that they agreed that the only goods

[01:10:26] that would be manufactured in the Auburn State prison

[01:10:29] were goods that were not manufactured anywhere else in New York State.

[01:10:35] And in particular, that is exactly why today at the Auburn Correctional Facility

[01:10:41] there is still manufacturing going on,

[01:10:43] there is still forced labor going on in the Auburn Correctional Facility,

[01:10:48] and today what is manufactured there is license plates.

[01:10:53] So every single life in New York State, 100% of them are made in Auburn's prison,

[01:10:58] they are made by men and they are all men,

[01:11:01] they are made by men who are literally walking in William Freeman's footsteps.

[01:11:06] So that is the legacy of the white artisans' rebellion against the prison.

[01:11:14] That's why today you don't have things like carpets being,

[01:11:18] or carpets manufactured in the Auburn State prison for general sale on the open market.

[01:11:25] Instead what you have are things like license plates where there is no private industry.

[01:11:30] So this is the direct result of some of the fights that I am describing in Freeman's Challenge.

[01:11:39] Yeah, and so, excuse me, that reminds me,

[01:11:44] I remember there was a story when they were talking about the prison industrial complex,

[01:11:51] how this company that had been making blankets for the United States Army

[01:11:56] ever since the Revolutionary War finally lost its business

[01:12:01] because the army contracted with this prison to make the blankets.

[01:12:07] So when I was reading that part about the artisans' rebellion,

[01:12:11] that was the immediate story that came to mind about that.

[01:12:17] As you stated, this happened before the 13th Amendment was ratified.

[01:12:23] Do you think based on your research into the book and writing the book

[01:12:27] that the Auburn system played a major role in influencing that language

[01:12:33] that said slavery was abolished except during incarceration?

[01:12:39] Oh, there's no question that the Auburn State prison was a direct cause of that language.

[01:12:46] So this is something that a lot of people think that the 13th Amendment,

[01:12:52] which outlawed forced labor, quote, except as a punishment for crime, unquote,

[01:12:58] a lot of people think that the 13th Amendment created a new form of slavery

[01:13:02] after slavery was abolished in the South.

[01:13:06] So you've got the 13th Amendment, it outlawed slavery,

[01:13:09] but then it has what a lot of people call this loophole cause clause,

[01:13:13] which in a lot of people's view created this new form of slavery.

[01:13:18] But that's actually not true.

[01:13:21] In fact, carceral labor is slavery by another name,

[01:13:26] but it is slavery that is in relation to northern slavery, not southern slavery.

[01:13:34] So it was the north, not the south that invented carceral slavery.

[01:13:40] And then it was invented in Auburn and then it spread everywhere.

[01:13:44] It spread across the north, it spread across the east coast,

[01:13:48] it spread to the south, it spread to the west.

[01:13:51] A lot of the prisons that we know that are most notorious

[01:13:54] were absolutely deliberately built on the Auburn system

[01:13:58] and this was completely explicit, completely straightforward.

[01:14:01] So when we think of places like San Quentin or Parchman or Angola

[01:14:07] or Sing Sing, these are all Auburn prisons.

[01:14:11] These are all Auburn system prisons that were built with economics

[01:14:16] at their heart, at their core.

[01:14:19] So when the 13th Amendment was created that outlawed slavery

[01:14:24] while inserting this loophole, it did not create a new form of slavery.

[01:14:30] What it did instead was preserve an old form of northern originating slavery.

[01:14:38] It preserved this northern invention, which had by that time gone nationwide

[01:14:44] of carceral slavery.

[01:14:47] So in closing, what do you want readers to take away from the book

[01:14:52] and how do people get their copy of the book

[01:14:56] or even try to reach out to you to talk about the book

[01:15:00] or give lectures a web?

[01:15:03] Great.

[01:15:04] Well, you can get Freeman's Challenge,

[01:15:06] the murder that shook America's original prison for profit.

[01:15:09] Wherever books are sold, you can also get it at the library.

[01:15:13] And so you can reach out to me.

[01:15:15] I've got a website, robinvernsteinphd.com.

[01:15:19] So you're very welcome to reach out to me.

[01:15:22] In terms of what should be done now,

[01:15:24] what should be done is we should end carceral slavery.

[01:15:29] We should, nobody should be forced to work inside a prison

[01:15:32] and nobody should be forced to work at all if they don't want to.

[01:15:38] And certainly nobody should be forced to work for no wages,

[01:15:41] which is still the practice in many states in the United States.

[01:15:45] And when people choose to work, they should be paid fairly.

[01:15:49] And this is the issue that is actually being debated right now

[01:15:53] in the New York state legislature literally right now.

[01:15:56] So there are two laws that are under consideration.

[01:16:01] They are not yet laws, two bills.

[01:16:03] In the New York state legislature,

[01:16:07] one is called the Slavery in New York Act.

[01:16:10] And if it passes, it will disallow forced labor in New York.

[01:16:16] It will not take away labor inside prisons,

[01:16:19] but it will make it so that nobody can be forced to work.

[01:16:23] People will have a choice.

[01:16:25] And the second one, the second bill is called the Fairness and Opportunity Act.

[01:16:30] And if that one passes, what it will guarantee

[01:16:32] is that people who are incarcerated who choose to work

[01:16:36] will be paid fairly and will have certain rights

[01:16:40] that we who are not incarcerated take for granted.

[01:16:42] Like for example, the right to, if we save up some money

[01:16:46] to put our money in a bank and earn some interest.

[01:16:49] You and I as non-incarcerated people,

[01:16:51] if we have a little extra money and we want to open a bank account

[01:16:54] and earn a little interest on our money, we can do that.

[01:16:57] Why shouldn't incarcerated people have the same right?

[01:17:00] That's what's addressed by the Fairness and Opportunity Act.

[01:17:03] So these are really important acts that I hope will pass

[01:17:07] in New York state.

[01:17:08] I'm working to help pass them.

[01:17:10] And there are similar acts in many other states.

[01:17:13] So this is what we can do.

[01:17:15] What I hope people will do when they read Freeman's Challenge

[01:17:17] is get energized to fight carceral slavery

[01:17:22] in the present day.

[01:17:25] Ladies and gentlemen, the book is called Freeman's Challenge,

[01:17:28] The Murder That Shook America's Original Prison for Profit.

[01:17:32] And you've been listening to the author of the book,

[01:17:36] Dr. Robin Bernstein.

[01:17:38] And Dr. I greatly appreciate you coming on

[01:17:41] and I appreciate you doing this work.

[01:17:48] It's an issue that, you know,

[01:17:51] I've been out of elected politics for 20 years

[01:17:53] and I remember being in the legislature dealing with this issue.

[01:17:59] So it's more than past time for us to address it.

[01:18:03] And I'm glad that you figured out a creative way

[01:18:06] to put it out there for folks.

[01:18:08] It's really, really an intriguing read.

[01:18:11] I love, I was telling somebody,

[01:18:13] I'm not a big fan of fiction,

[01:18:15] but I'll read historical fiction.

[01:18:17] But I definitely like nonfiction stories

[01:18:19] because this is a story that I had never heard of

[01:18:23] until I picked up that book.

[01:18:25] So I greatly appreciate what you've done.

[01:18:27] And thank you for coming on the podcast.

[01:18:29] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:18:31] It's an honor to be here.

[01:18:32] All right, guys, and we'll catch y'all on the other side.

[01:18:47] All right. And we are back.

[01:18:49] So I want to thank my good friend,

[01:18:51] my good Republican friend,

[01:18:55] Coach Felicia Killings for coming on

[01:18:57] and giving that enlightening perspective

[01:18:59] about her views on this election.

[01:19:05] And to get to brag about this convention,

[01:19:09] this leadership convention that she's hosting.

[01:19:11] And I hope that if people are interested

[01:19:14] that you would sign up for that.

[01:19:17] And then Dr. Robin Bernstein

[01:19:21] for her book of Freeman's Challenge,

[01:19:25] which as I stated in the intro,

[01:19:30] very creative way of how to address

[01:19:34] the prison industrial complex

[01:19:37] and getting to the very root of it.

[01:19:41] And I think it's very important to understand that

[01:19:46] this was all before the 13th Amendment.

[01:19:50] And, you know, and so really the loophole

[01:19:56] as she puts it was maintaining a system

[01:20:01] rather than creating one, right?

[01:20:04] Because if you watch 13th on Netflix,

[01:20:09] the premise was kind of like once that 13th Amendment

[01:20:13] was ratified, then it was on and popping

[01:20:16] to get black folks in jail to get free labor.

[01:20:20] But what this book tells you is that

[01:20:23] the 13th Amendment was the loophole was

[01:20:26] a nod to a system that was already existing.

[01:20:30] And then it went to a whole other level

[01:20:32] after the Civil War.

[01:20:37] So that's why history is important.

[01:20:41] That's why foundation is important.

[01:20:45] And if you are grounded with a solid education,

[01:20:50] if you are grounded with true history and true knowledge,

[01:20:55] you can navigate this world.

[01:20:57] You can navigate the place that you live.

[01:20:59] You can understand why certain things are done

[01:21:01] in certain ways.

[01:21:03] And if you feel that you need to change them,

[01:21:05] then you are educated enough to make those changes

[01:21:09] with the sensitivity as to why these things exist

[01:21:13] in the first place, right?

[01:21:16] So I've always been a big advocate of history.

[01:21:19] And if you listen to those two ladies,

[01:21:25] you understand that they have a great respect

[01:21:27] for history too.

[01:21:31] Now, we've still got an election coming up.

[01:21:39] And I really need people to be engaged.

[01:21:43] It is now after Labor Day, so it's officially campaign season.

[01:21:48] I know that these presidential elections,

[01:21:52] these folks be campaigning a year, two years, four years out.

[01:21:59] Crunch time is always from Labor Day

[01:22:02] to the first Tuesday in November.

[01:22:05] So I need people to focus.

[01:22:07] I know who I'm voting for.

[01:22:09] I am encouraging people not to vote for the guy

[01:22:13] that is trying to get back into the White House.

[01:22:19] I do not want this guy back in.

[01:22:24] And based on what I'm sensing and what I'm picking up,

[01:22:28] the majority of Americans don't want to meet.

[01:22:33] And we're just going to have to brace ourselves

[01:22:37] for the results.

[01:22:41] Once they come in and Americans reject them again,

[01:22:45] we'll have to brace ourselves for his tantrums

[01:22:48] and what kind of impact it's going to have.

[01:22:54] I don't think it's going to be anything more serious

[01:22:56] than what we saw because really we got lucky

[01:23:01] because he was in office last time he lost.

[01:23:06] And you saw what he did with just

[01:23:10] lame duck power.

[01:23:13] Right?

[01:23:14] So now that he's not in power, but he has his influence,

[01:23:20] is he more dangerous as a loose cannon?

[01:23:23] Don't know.

[01:23:24] All I know is that we got to stop giving him a break.

[01:23:33] And just like I said when OJ Simpson was acquitted

[01:23:43] of criminal charges, but he was found civilly,

[01:23:47] civilly liable.

[01:23:50] For wrongful death.

[01:23:53] I remember one lawyer saying, well, if this guy

[01:23:59] who was a waiter was worth $20 million,

[01:24:03] then every black person that he is going to advocate for

[01:24:07] in a wrongful death case is going to start off with $20 million.

[01:24:11] Right?

[01:24:12] And this was in the 90s.

[01:24:16] My thing is that this guy can get all this favoritism

[01:24:25] where we can delay sentencing and

[01:24:32] allow these appeal processes run to be,

[01:24:35] to allow this person to influence judges.

[01:24:39] You know, it's like it would really be nice if there were some black folks

[01:24:47] that could catch a break like that.

[01:24:49] Right?

[01:24:50] Because you know, I'm sure young Thug would want Fonny Willis removed

[01:24:58] from the case.

[01:25:00] Right?

[01:25:03] Just like Donald Trump was Fonny Willis removed.

[01:25:06] Right?

[01:25:07] But young Thug wasn't going to get that latitude.

[01:25:11] So I'm just saying if we're going to have a justice system that is equitable,

[01:25:19] not equal, equitable, right?

[01:25:23] Then folks ought to play by the same rules.

[01:25:28] And it doesn't matter whether that person was a president or not.

[01:25:33] If that person has been found guilty and they're supposed to be sentenced,

[01:25:40] sentenced them.

[01:25:42] Don't just keep kicking the can down the curb.

[01:25:46] It's like, well, you know, we don't want to influence the election.

[01:25:52] Did you really found him guilty before the election?

[01:25:58] So now what if he wins?

[01:26:02] So now you're going to put him in jail if he wins the election?

[01:26:05] No.

[01:26:07] You going to put him in jail after he loses the election?

[01:26:11] Maybe.

[01:26:12] Well, see, then he's going to say, oh, well, see, they just trying to put.

[01:26:17] Just.

[01:26:19] I hope we never run into the situation again.

[01:26:22] I hope we never have an individual like that ever again to even sniff the

[01:26:27] White House, let alone get in there.

[01:26:30] But if we do.

[01:26:33] Let's, and that person does something wrong.

[01:26:36] Deal with them.

[01:26:39] Deal with them.

[01:26:40] Now it's not going to be me, but even if it is me.

[01:26:44] Deal with them.

[01:26:46] Because if they're guilty, they deserve that.

[01:26:50] Right?

[01:26:54] I just know if it was Barack Obama, brother would have been in jail already.

[01:26:58] It had been all sorts of mess.

[01:27:02] There wouldn't have been nothing delayed, nothing pushed back.

[01:27:06] I mean, the attorneys could have tried.

[01:27:08] They could have pushed it back as much as they legally could, but

[01:27:13] not to the extent that this guy is getting.

[01:27:18] I just already know that and that may seem cynical coming from a black man,

[01:27:23] but I haven't seen anything to prove otherwise.

[01:27:30] The only thing that makes me hopeful is that in my lifetime that I have

[01:27:36] seen a black man become president and now a black woman is going to be president.

[01:27:43] Now, once we get past the euphoric stuff, then we have to start dealing with

[01:27:47] policy and the actual part of governing, which is really the hard part.

[01:27:54] But, you know, the historical significance to see that, to see the chance even

[01:28:01] is amazing.

[01:28:04] Just think about Malcolm X being told as a young man.

[01:28:08] He was Malcolm Little in Omaha, Nebraska.

[01:28:12] We're linking one of them, one of them Nebraska towns.

[01:28:16] I want to say, hold on.

[01:28:17] Being told that when he wanted to be president in the United States,

[01:28:21] he said, that's not a job for black folk.

[01:28:24] That's not what you're going to do.

[01:28:26] You need to be more realistic.

[01:28:30] And now his children are witnessing a black man and since he had all girls,

[01:28:40] a black woman with the opportunity to be president in the United States.

[01:28:47] That's awesome.

[01:28:50] Right.

[01:28:51] But at the same time as this awesomeness is happening, they're still undercurrents

[01:28:55] of inequity and unfairness and miscarriages of justice.

[01:29:03] And while we have moments to celebrate, there's still work to do.

[01:29:09] Even if people achieve what they want to achieve and get this

[01:29:13] to stay in office, there's still going to be work to do.

[01:29:17] You just heard the news story.

[01:29:22] California was knocking on the door of reparations.

[01:29:24] I just got on folks.

[01:29:25] Then I just get on folks about not being in the streets.

[01:29:30] The lady who led the commission in California and said, hey, you know,

[01:29:34] we need reparation.

[01:29:35] She led the task force.

[01:29:36] They made the recommendations to the legislature.

[01:29:38] She said she was shocked that the legislature, the California

[01:29:44] Assembly did not pass the full reparations package.

[01:29:47] She said that.

[01:29:49] She said that she was going to pass.

[01:29:54] Bruh.

[01:29:55] Somebody that's been in the process and been on the outside agitating

[01:29:59] the process, you cannot take folks for their word.

[01:30:02] You've got to hold their feet to the fire until the very end.

[01:30:06] You've got to continue to march.

[01:30:08] You've got to continue to organize.

[01:30:10] But instead of trying to play real housewives on social media

[01:30:17] and all that kind of stuff.

[01:30:19] That's why you should have been organized because if you've

[01:30:24] been out on those streets like those folks are out in the streets

[01:30:26] in Chicago, that legislation would have passed.

[01:30:31] There wouldn't have been any room for flip flopping or

[01:30:37] you know, we have to reconsider some things.

[01:30:41] No, you put the heat on them.

[01:30:43] You work it out, pass it and work it out as policy.

[01:30:48] If you made a commitment to pass it, pass it.

[01:30:51] You know, renege on two thirds of it.

[01:30:56] Because of something at the last minute.

[01:30:58] But you gave that person the latitude because you're too busy trying to.

[01:31:03] I don't know what you're trying to do, but you ain't handling your business.

[01:31:06] And that's why that reparations building passed in California.

[01:31:09] Oh, we got an unelected folks in.

[01:31:12] No, you need to do what you were supposed to do in the first place.

[01:31:17] It's easy to just go after and try to target people.

[01:31:21] But you need to look in the mirror.

[01:31:25] You need to look in the mirror and realize brah.

[01:31:31] It's time to roll up our sleeves and do the work.

[01:31:36] If you're getting on social media, get on social media to organize

[01:31:39] and galvanize people to get it passed.

[01:31:44] Here's an idea instead of waiting for an election to try to get rid of these people.

[01:31:48] How about you push for a special session to be called to finish the job?

[01:31:55] Because whatever the issue was that Governor Newsom said,

[01:32:00] they can work that out in a special session.

[01:32:03] I literally was in a special session for 90 days.

[01:32:06] So however long it takes that special session to get the other two parts passed,

[01:32:11] make that happen.

[01:32:13] Organize galvanize mobilize.

[01:32:17] Educate people and get out there and force a special session.

[01:32:22] In California.

[01:32:24] Now, unless there's some provision in the Constitution that says they can't do it,

[01:32:28] make it happen.

[01:32:30] That's what you need to be focused on.

[01:32:32] Even if you say, well, I ain't worried about the presidential election.

[01:32:35] Okay, I get that because you're that close.

[01:32:40] Focus your energy on that.

[01:32:43] Get that done.

[01:32:46] Because if you wait till another election, if you wait till another legislative

[01:32:51] session, good luck.

[01:32:57] Good luck.

[01:33:01] That pipe was about to bust.

[01:33:05] And you relieve the pressure.

[01:33:10] Gotta keep focus.

[01:33:12] You gotta keep pushing forward.

[01:33:14] Because if you had done that, and we were only talking about at the maximum

[01:33:20] 1500 people 15.

[01:33:23] The descendants of 1500 people.

[01:33:27] Now how many people came out of those 1500?

[01:33:31] I don't know.

[01:33:33] But basically.

[01:33:35] The descendants of those 1500 people that worked in slave labor in California

[01:33:40] were going to get that check.

[01:33:47] Make it happen.

[01:33:50] You're so close.

[01:33:51] Make it happen.

[01:33:54] Leave the pettiness alone.

[01:33:57] Leave the social clicks alone.

[01:33:59] Educate, organize.

[01:34:02] Mobilize.

[01:34:04] Make it happen.

[01:34:08] Until next time.

[01:34:41] Thank you.