In this episode, friend of the podcast Will Cooper appears with his collaborator Michael McKinley to talk about the new cyber thriller book they co-authored, A Quiet Life. Then author and political science professor Lindsey Cormack discusses the importance of raising informed citizens in our democracy.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
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00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.
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00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 this moment a movement thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time
00:01:07 --> 00:01:10 i hope you enjoy this episode as well,
00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 the following program is hosted by the nbg podcast network.
00:01:16 --> 00:01:56 Music.
00:01:56 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:04 --> 00:02:11 So, greetings and thank you all for listening. I greatly appreciate y'all tuning in to the podcast.
00:02:11 --> 00:02:14 We still are on our quest for 20.
00:02:16 --> 00:02:20 So, if we can get 20 subscribers by the end of the year,
00:02:21 --> 00:02:25 I will be eternally grateful to you all to make this happen.
00:02:25 --> 00:02:28 And we can keep doing what we're doing, right?
00:02:29 --> 00:02:36 I've got some guests on that one of them has been a regular on this show,
00:02:36 --> 00:02:41 but this regular has brought a friend because they've written a book together,
00:02:42 --> 00:02:47 which is a very, very good book, and we'll get into that.
00:02:47 --> 00:02:56 But it's a fictional book, which for people that know me, I'm not big in fiction,
00:02:56 --> 00:02:59 but, you know, I like to read.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:05 So that's one of the cool things about this job is that I get to interview a
00:03:05 --> 00:03:06 lot of people who write books.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:13 And so I do get to read and I'm glad my reading habit has picked back up because of this.
00:03:14 --> 00:03:17 And then I have another guest. She's a professor of political science,
00:03:17 --> 00:03:21 and she has also written a book.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:29 And I think it's a timely book, you know, for the times that we are in.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:32 It's very, very important. And so we'll get into that.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:41 You know, and I may have something for y'all extra, but y'all just have to listen to the podcast to see.
00:03:41 --> 00:03:44 But again, this is going to be another great show.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 I enjoy doing this. I enjoy lifting people up that are doing the work.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:58 I enjoy talking about politics, even though it's kind of painful right now.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:03 But even more so, you have to have a love for politics to talk about what's
00:04:03 --> 00:04:07 going on and, you know, to get
00:04:07 --> 00:04:13 my viewpoints on it and what we can do or what we should not do. Right.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:18 Because there's always that. So anyway, I hope you all enjoy the show.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:22 So we're going to go ahead and kick it off, as always, with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:31 Music.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:35 Thanks, Eric. President Trump announced higher China tariffs while holding off
00:04:35 --> 00:04:39 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada until April 2nd.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:44 Trump declared America is back in a lengthy congressional address defending
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 his trade wars and government worker purges.
00:04:48 --> 00:04:51 Representative Al Green was censured by the House of Representatives for being
00:04:51 --> 00:04:53 disruptive during Trump's address.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:58 The U.S. Supreme Court blocked Trump's bid to withhold payments to foreign aid
00:04:58 --> 00:05:02 groups for completed work. Trump paused U.S.
00:05:02 --> 00:05:08 Military aid to Ukraine after criticizing Ukrainian President Zelensky for insufficient gratitude.
00:05:09 --> 00:05:13 European leaders agreed to draft a Ukraine peace plan for U.S.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:18 Security guarantees, vowing increased defense spending and forming a coalition of the willing.
00:05:19 --> 00:05:24 Egypt's Gaza reconstruction proposal to counter President Trump's U.S.-led resettlement
00:05:24 --> 00:05:27 idea was adopted at an emergency Arab summit.
00:05:27 --> 00:05:34 Texas measles cases rose to 159, with hospitalizations increasing and an unvaccinated
00:05:34 --> 00:05:36 child's death marking the first U.S.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:38 Measles fatality since 2015.
00:05:39 --> 00:05:44 House Speaker Mike Johnson advised Republicans to avoid town halls after protests
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 over Trump-backed federal job cuts.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 D.C. Mayor Muriel Bowser plans to redesign Black Lives Matter Plaza,
00:05:52 --> 00:05:57 following GOP threats to cut transportation funding unless the name is changed.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:03 Robert Cremo III pled guilty to murder for a 2022 mass shooting at a Chicago
00:06:03 --> 00:06:07 suburbs 4th of July parade that killed seven and injured over 40.
00:06:08 --> 00:06:12 Democrats sued President Trump over an executive order they claim illegally
00:06:12 --> 00:06:16 expands his authority over the Federal Election Commission.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:21 Ex-New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced a mayoral run, aiming to replace
00:06:21 --> 00:06:25 embattled Mayor Eric Adams. And U.S.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:31 Congressman Sylvester Turner, 70, former NAACP President Hazel Dukes,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:36 92, and R&B singer Angie Stone, 63, all passed away.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:41 I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:40 --> 00:06:48 Music.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:52 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news.
00:06:52 --> 00:06:59 And now it is time for my guests, Will Cooper and Michael McKinley.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:03 Will Cooper is an attorney who's done work for major companies,
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 including Google and Samsung.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:09 He's also an award-winning journalist whose articles have appeared in hundreds
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 of publications around the world, including the New York Times,
00:07:13 --> 00:07:16 San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Sun-Times and Jerusalem Post.
00:07:17 --> 00:07:22 Publishers Weekly called his writings about Donald Trump a compelling rallying
00:07:22 --> 00:07:26 cry for democratic institutions under threat in America.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:31 And he's a frequent guest on national television and radio programs and on numerous
00:07:31 --> 00:07:33 podcasts, especially this one.
00:07:35 --> 00:07:39 Will has been a regular on this podcast ever since I started having guests on the podcast.
00:07:40 --> 00:07:46 And so I greatly appreciate him coming on with this latest venture that he is
00:07:46 --> 00:07:49 endeavored in. And he lives in California.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:53 Now, joining him is Michael McKinley.
00:07:54 --> 00:07:57 Michael McKinley is an award-winning writer, journalist, and filmmaker.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:02 Michael was educated at the University of British Columbia and Oxford University,
00:08:02 --> 00:08:09 where he also directed academic summer schools, as well as at Cambridge University.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:13 He's written more than 20 books on subjects ranging from sport,
00:08:13 --> 00:08:18 military history, religion, business, and politics, and crime fiction.
00:08:18 --> 00:08:24 These include his book Willie, the game-changing story of the NHL's first black
00:08:24 --> 00:08:30 player, which was nominated for an NAACP Image Award and is now being made into a feature film.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:35 His first novel, The Penalty Killing, was nominated for an Arthur Ellis Award
00:08:35 --> 00:08:37 as Best Debut Crime Novel.
00:08:37 --> 00:08:42 Michael has also created, written, and produced television series for CNN,
00:08:42 --> 00:08:45 The History Channel, Discovery,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:55 TSN, CBC, and co-created and co-executive produced NBC Peacock slash Sky UK's
00:08:55 --> 00:08:57 ratings hit Epstein's Shadow.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 With Shane Maxwell's story, I can never say her name right.
00:09:02 --> 00:09:07 His newest documentary, which he also wrote, produced, and directed Let's Do
00:09:07 --> 00:09:11 a Miracle, recently debuted at the Big Apple Film Festival in New York City,
00:09:11 --> 00:09:17 where he also served as a juror for the 2025 documentary season.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:23 In 2024, he has published this cybercrime thriller, A Quiet Life.
00:09:24 --> 00:09:26 Lou Varro, the Godfather of U.S.
00:09:26 --> 00:09:32 Hockey, and Diamond Dust, The Compelling Story of a Brilliant Mormon Counterfeiter
00:09:32 --> 00:09:38 in Utah, as well as the airline terror thriller Squawk 7700.
00:09:38 --> 00:09:44 In 2025, his co-written radical thrillers The Glamour of Evil and Something
00:09:44 --> 00:09:51 Wicked will be published, as will his co-written political book Party Crasher,
00:09:51 --> 00:09:54 wrestling with third-party politics in the U.S.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:59 The business book, Blood Few, Greed, Hubris, and Redemption in a Family Business.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:08 The social justice book on thin ice and LAPD veterans and LAPD veterans 30 year
00:10:08 --> 00:10:10 journey toward a new culture of policing.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:17 The crime memoir redeemed a journey from darkness to light and the political
00:10:17 --> 00:10:19 and business book. Who Knew?
00:10:19 --> 00:10:23 My Journey Through Vietnam, Harvard, the White House, the Department of State,
00:10:24 --> 00:10:26 and Corporate America. So far.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:30 Michael lives in Brooklyn, New York with his wife and daughter.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:36 And so you heard me mention in one of those, the cyber crime thriller, Quiet Life.
00:10:37 --> 00:10:43 That's the book that Will and Michael co-wrote and we'll be discussing today on the podcast.
00:10:43 --> 00:10:48 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests
00:10:48 --> 00:10:53 on this podcast, Will Cooper and Michael McKinley.
00:10:54 --> 00:11:05 Music.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:10 All right. I got my good friend, excuse me, my good friend, William Cooper,
00:11:10 --> 00:11:13 Will Cooper, on the show. Will, how you doing?
00:11:14 --> 00:11:18 Great to be here, Erik. I'm doing well. Thank you. And I see that you brought
00:11:18 --> 00:11:21 a friend with you this time, Michael McKinley. Mike, how you doing?
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 Great, Erik. Thank you for inviting us on. Well, I'm glad to have you on.
00:11:27 --> 00:11:31 I was pleasantly surprised when Will sent me this book called A Quiet Life.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:38 And I started reading and I said, oh yeah, yeah, we, we, we got a,
00:11:38 --> 00:11:43 you know, and I assumed that Will wanted to talk about it when he sent it.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:49 And so I was, I was really, really encouraged to read it and it kind of took
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 me aback a little bit and, and I'll get into that reason why,
00:11:53 --> 00:12:00 but I enjoyed reading the book and I recommend people go get it and we'll talk
00:12:00 --> 00:12:04 a little bit about it on the podcast and try to gin up some interest without
00:12:04 --> 00:12:09 spoiling it too much, right?
00:12:10 --> 00:12:14 Right. So normally I do like some icebreakers at the beginning.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 Will is very familiar with this. So Mike, we're breaking you in.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:23 So what I want to do is I want you, Mike, to answer this quote.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:29 If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting
00:12:29 --> 00:12:32 a foreign enemy. What does that quote mean to you?
00:12:34 --> 00:12:41 It means that somehow generated the foreign enemy within, I think is what it means.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:45 I'm, I'm an immigrant, Erik. I came to the United States from Canada.
00:12:47 --> 00:12:52 When my daughter was entering kindergarten, 2009, which was a year of hope and change.
00:12:52 --> 00:12:55 And so my wife and I decided we would follow the hope and change.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:00 So I've always thought that any enemy, the greatest enemy that is the United States was from within.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:06 And I still believe that. And I think now we're seeing evidence of that happening.
00:13:07 --> 00:13:11 Alas, alas. And Will and I addressed that in a quiet life as well,
00:13:11 --> 00:13:14 because we thought it was possible. Yeah.
00:13:15 --> 00:13:21 So I've got another one, icebreaker. So I'll start with Will with this one.
00:13:21 --> 00:13:23 And then, Mike, I want you to participate too.
00:13:24 --> 00:13:28 So Will, I want you to give me a number between one and 20.
00:13:29 --> 00:13:33 11. Okay. I got the easy question, Michael.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:42 All right. Number 11, where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?
00:13:43 --> 00:13:46 Whoa that's a huge question that i've been
00:13:46 --> 00:13:49 thinking a lot about that eric about facts
00:13:49 --> 00:13:52 and how to confirm them in the
00:13:52 --> 00:13:59 social media era and in the media ecosystem we live in this information is just
00:13:59 --> 00:14:05 oozing out of people's pores to a degree that's unfathomable and i frankly don't
00:14:05 --> 00:14:11 believe anything i read by virtually anybody at this point so if i want to verify a fact,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:18 I roll up my sleeves, I pour a cup of tea, I get ready for a real effort.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:25 And what I typically do is try to find cross-references at a variety of professional sources.
00:14:25 --> 00:14:31 And if they are all saying the same thing, I assume there's a high,
00:14:32 --> 00:14:36 although not certain degree, a high likelihood that it's true.
00:14:36 --> 00:14:40 But you asked a very important question in my view. Have you heard of this thing
00:14:40 --> 00:14:43 called Snopes.com? Yeah.
00:14:43 --> 00:14:49 Okay, Mike, you've heard of it. It was another guest that picked number 11,
00:14:49 --> 00:14:56 and he said that was his go-to as far as finding some information.
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 I haven't looked at it yet, but I said I would.
00:15:00 --> 00:15:06 All right, Mike, give me a number between 1 and 20. Do not choose 11.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:14 Okay, 17. All right, 17 is, what's something about people who see the world
00:15:14 --> 00:15:17 differently than you that you've come to appreciate?
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 Oh, that's a very good question because I've been working on that.
00:15:22 --> 00:15:26 Because so many people, about half the country, it seems, sees the world differently
00:15:26 --> 00:15:27 than me these days, Erik.
00:15:27 --> 00:15:32 So what I appreciate is their willingness to listen to my view,
00:15:32 --> 00:15:37 I guess, is I am willing to listen to theirs in a civilized way to possibly accomplish that.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:39 Willingness to have a dialogue. Thank you.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:45 And that, I know, tends to the question, but that's what I really appreciate
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 somebody who has different view, if they're willing to discuss it with me in
00:15:49 --> 00:15:52 a way that will allow me to give them my opinion.
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 Because as, you know, Will alluded to in his answer to his question,
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 the disinformation just, we get hammered, you know?
00:16:00 --> 00:16:05 And if you try to counter it, you get hammered in all kinds of different ways,
00:16:05 --> 00:16:10 you know, rather than listened to or engaged with, right? So that's,
00:16:10 --> 00:16:11 that's how I think I will.
00:16:11 --> 00:16:16 Yeah. Yeah. I definitely, I definitely appreciate that because you can't have
00:16:16 --> 00:16:19 a dialogue if people are not willing to listen to each other. No.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:24 And that, and we're running into a lot of that. We kind of saw that.
00:16:24 --> 00:16:28 I don't know if y'all follow earlier today.
00:16:28 --> 00:16:36 They censored Congressman Green for his outburst that the Trump addressed to Congress Tuesday.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:42 And, you know, it was just, I mean, it was just apparent, you know,
00:16:42 --> 00:16:49 that we've gotten to a point where our leaders are just not even trying to dialogue with each other.
00:16:49 --> 00:16:55 Yeah. And, you know, it's like following the decorum of the House,
00:16:56 --> 00:17:00 you know, it was understood that the congressman and he agreed that he was going
00:17:00 --> 00:17:01 to get disciplined for it.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:08 But, you know, the way that people have been acting in that body ever since
00:17:08 --> 00:17:11 Joe Wilson, we can thank Joe Wilson from that from South Carolina.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 It's just, you know, I'm saying it's like they could have censored four or five
00:17:16 --> 00:17:21 people on both sides. for what happened.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:26 So I'm just, I agree with you, Mike. We got to have a dialogue.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 So William, I want to go to you with this particular question.
00:17:30 --> 00:17:34 What led you to co-write a fictional book about politics?
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 You've been writing all this great stuff, all these columns,
00:17:38 --> 00:17:43 all these books about Donald Trump and his impact on American politics.
00:17:44 --> 00:17:48 Why did you decide to co-write a fictional book?
00:17:48 --> 00:17:53 Well, I love fiction, Erik. I love books of all kinds.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:59 And there's things you can do with fiction, of course, that you can't do with
00:17:59 --> 00:18:01 nonfiction. You can explore things.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 You can be creative, let your imagination run wild. I actually think with this
00:18:06 --> 00:18:12 book and in fiction, a lot of fiction for me is you let your paranoia run wild.
00:18:13 --> 00:18:16 Like we all live lives and we think well what if these
00:18:16 --> 00:18:18 things happen that that would be
00:18:18 --> 00:18:21 really terrible and they almost never
00:18:21 --> 00:18:24 do knock on wood but with a novel
00:18:24 --> 00:18:27 you get to write it out and so I thought it would
00:18:27 --> 00:18:35 be really fun to tell a story that that was my paranoia my imagination running
00:18:35 --> 00:18:40 wild and then when I met Michael I met a great partner with you know tremendous
00:18:40 --> 00:18:44 creativity and talent and got me even more excited about it.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:49 And, and we joined forces and, and just had a lot of fun, but it was really
00:18:49 --> 00:18:53 just an opportunity to express myself in a new, in a new form.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:58 It's still political and it still makes a lot of points about society and government,
00:18:58 --> 00:19:04 but so it's not a romance novel, but it was really just a fun opportunity to
00:19:04 --> 00:19:05 do something different.
00:19:05 --> 00:19:09 So how does the collab writing work?
00:19:10 --> 00:19:16 It's like, do you take a chapter, then Mike, you take a chapter,
00:19:16 --> 00:19:20 or y'all just kind of, how does the collaboration like that work?
00:19:21 --> 00:19:27 We we swapped chapters pretty much as we go it was the it was will's idea for the.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:33 Of the title and the two characters who have an ordinary or a desire for a quiet
00:19:33 --> 00:19:38 life and that really caught my imagination what does that mean today how can
00:19:38 --> 00:19:44 we pull that off and and so then it was a change of ideas that eventually evolve
00:19:44 --> 00:19:47 into chapters and go back and forth and then,
00:19:47 --> 00:19:51 you know hocus pocus we have a draft finally and then
00:19:51 --> 00:19:54 then that's that's the fun part to me is
00:19:54 --> 00:19:59 revising the draft because you know you've now got down on paper and now you're
00:19:59 --> 00:20:03 oh okay that's that might be better if we do this you know and then our dialogue
00:20:03 --> 00:20:08 so it was a real pleasure doing that well because of all his political astuteness
00:20:08 --> 00:20:12 and sensibility and talent it was great to do Yeah, Mike,
00:20:12 --> 00:20:17 you know, being a filmmaker, I know that you're used to doing collabs and stuff.
00:20:17 --> 00:20:21 And we were talking about Netflix because I know on certain series,
00:20:21 --> 00:20:27 you'll have one director do like a couple episodes and another director do another.
00:20:28 --> 00:20:31 So it's like, but every, you know, it's all one vision.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:35 So I was just kind of curious about that piece.
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 So, Mike, you said that Will came up with the characters?
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 It was Will's idea, yeah. For Michael, the two characters, Michael and Pam Housen,
00:20:45 --> 00:20:47 were this young couple who live in Indiana.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:51 And that's where he situated them and called it A Quiet Life.
00:20:52 --> 00:20:56 And said something bad happens to them because of something Michael did,
00:20:56 --> 00:20:59 either deliberately or accidentally, or not at all.
00:21:01 --> 00:21:06 And so that's what kicks it off. And it's a phishing email that Michael flips
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 on that essentially creates global habit.
00:21:11 --> 00:21:13 In the book, in the world that we've created, in the quiet life,
00:21:14 --> 00:21:15 Michael Peck gets very noisy very fast.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:20 And they become enemies of the state and have to prove their innocence in order
00:21:20 --> 00:21:23 to survive, along with other things they have to prove in order to survive.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:29 So it was a lot of fun to run with it because, you know, we could run all over the place. And we did.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:36 Yeah. So, Will, you want to, since the characters were kind of your idea,
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 kind of tell us who Michael and Pam are.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 And it's housing. Is that how you pronounce it?
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 Yep. Michael and Pam Housen. Yeah.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:56 And Michael was very nice in his answer, but the two main characters I had thought
00:21:56 --> 00:22:01 of, but he brought a lot of wonderful characters from scratch into the book
00:22:01 --> 00:22:02 that created the whole narrative.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:06 But the central premise, Michael and Pam.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:11 The aim with the book,
00:22:12 --> 00:22:21 and I think the biggest sort of part of the book that we really wanted to have
00:22:21 --> 00:22:26 be the central theme was two very normal, ordinary people.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:30 Most people, they just want to wake up. They're in their early 30s.
00:22:30 --> 00:22:34 They just want to wake up, go to work, get some things done,
00:22:34 --> 00:22:39 drink their coffee at their desk, come home, watch their favorite Netflix show.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45 Probably one of Michael's shows that he has on Netflix. And then relax,
00:22:45 --> 00:22:47 go to bed, and do it all over again the next day.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:50 And then in the weekend, go to a baseball game and have fun.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:55 And that's what most people want in life. and they're not looking to be at the
00:22:55 --> 00:22:58 center of a geopolitical firestorm.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:03 And the point of the book is to bring these characters and say,
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 by a very innocent act, and there's some mystery about whether this happened
00:23:08 --> 00:23:12 or didn't, but a single click of a mouse, Michael,
00:23:13 --> 00:23:20 has let Iranian hackers into his company and his company services the U.S.
00:23:20 --> 00:23:23 Government. So Iranian cyber hackers have now gotten into the U.S.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:26 Government. So he was just drinking his coffee on this normal, quiet day.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:33 One little click. And that act by those hackers triggered a war. The U.S.
00:23:34 --> 00:23:38 President used it as a pretext for war. So the lesson is normal people,
00:23:39 --> 00:23:43 everyday lives, just like all of us, most of us at least.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:51 Thrust against their will into the center of the biggest story in the whole world.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:56 Yeah. So, and either one of y'all can answer the questions from this point forward,
00:23:56 --> 00:24:01 but I have to be honest, I didn't like what y'all did to Chicago.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:05 That kind of hurt my heart that y'all did that to Chicago.
00:24:05 --> 00:24:13 But why was Bloomington, Indiana, the backdrop of all the places in America?
00:24:14 --> 00:24:17 Why Bloomington, Indiana? It could have been anywhere.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:24 Well, let me step back and say I love Chicago deeply.
00:24:25 --> 00:24:30 Me too. Yes, maybe Michael meant offense, but not me. No, no,
00:24:30 --> 00:24:33 no. I love Chicago too. We love Chicago.
00:24:35 --> 00:24:38 But it could have been anywhere. Could have been Santa Fe, New Mexico.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:43 Could have been Jackson, Mississippi, where Erik and I have Mississippi lineage.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:50 It could have been anywhere. The point was, it was just a relatively normal
00:24:50 --> 00:24:53 place. It wasn't Rodeo Drive.
00:24:53 --> 00:24:55 It wasn't the center of Park Avenue.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:01 It was just a normal Midwestern town, normal Midwestern family. Yeah.
00:25:02 --> 00:25:07 So even though this book is set eight years into the future,
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 Why did you feel that this book would resonate with audiences today?
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 Mike, you want to jump on that one? Sure. I think that we thought,
00:25:16 --> 00:25:21 Eric, when we were constructing it, that there were things that were already
00:25:21 --> 00:25:23 in play that were going to play out.
00:25:24 --> 00:25:28 We just didn't know when they would play. And if they played out very negatively,
00:25:28 --> 00:25:34 for example, the hunting bounty on immigrants, which a rep in Mississippi actually proposed. Yeah.
00:25:35 --> 00:25:41 For bounty of immigrants, people in the country who were trying to flee to Canada,
00:25:41 --> 00:25:42 which is now actually happening.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:45 Immigrants are going to Canada instead of staying here.
00:25:46 --> 00:25:52 It was things like that that we thought were in play, but would they play out one way or the other?
00:25:52 --> 00:26:01 So the timeline in the future, if you will, was appealing for that reason because
00:26:01 --> 00:26:04 it's happened sooner rather than later, I guess you could say.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:08 But it's happening. And that's why we thought it would be resonant,
00:26:08 --> 00:26:10 because it was already extant.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 It just needed to be amplified. And we thought we would amplify it,
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 tweak it, and play with it, and fictionalize what we wanted to fictionalize
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 and hope that it didn't come true.
00:26:21 --> 00:26:27 But that was our goal. So how long ago did y'all start working on this book?
00:26:28 --> 00:26:29 Gosh, well, would it have been 2022?
00:26:31 --> 00:26:37 Yeah, time flies. I think we joined forces in the latter part of 2022. I think that's right.
00:26:38 --> 00:26:44 Yeah. Yeah. So basically when y'all started it, y'all pushed it like 10 years in advance.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:47 Pretty much. Pretty much, Erik. Yeah.
00:26:48 --> 00:26:55 All right. So when we readers put this book down outside of being entertained,
00:26:55 --> 00:26:58 what do you want them to take away from this book?
00:26:59 --> 00:27:05 I'll go first, if that's OK, Michael. I think I think two things.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:13 The first is is the world we live in now due to the interconnectivity of computers.
00:27:13 --> 00:27:18 It's not just flat. Like the big book by Thomas Friedman 20 years ago, The World's Flat.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:22 It's not just flat. It is deeply, deeply interconnected.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:28 And within half a nanosecond, billions of people anywhere on the globe you can
00:27:28 --> 00:27:30 interact with, a lot of that's positive.
00:27:31 --> 00:27:34 What we're doing right now is wonderful.
00:27:34 --> 00:27:39 Three people online talking and clicked a few buttons and here we were.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:48 But it also creates an unbelievable risk and potential that any one of us makes
00:27:48 --> 00:27:54 a single wrong move innocently and we can be thrust into things that we never wanted,
00:27:54 --> 00:27:59 never wanted to partake in. And it can be quite negative.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 The SolarWinds hack where Russia got into the U.S.
00:28:02 --> 00:28:07 Government through SolarWinds, a private company, that was a phishing email.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:12 So somebody out there that was an employee at SolarWinds, I don't know a name,
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 I don't think a name's been identified, but somebody out there clicked a link
00:28:15 --> 00:28:20 at their office, and then a couple years later found out because of that click,
00:28:20 --> 00:28:26 Russia was reading the most confidential classified State Department memos out there.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:33 So point one is the incredible interconnectivity and how that could be both good and bad.
00:28:33 --> 00:28:36 And then the second point, and then I'll let Michael give his view,
00:28:36 --> 00:28:47 is the concentration of power, both money and technology, in politics is very dangerous.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:49 And the nexus between those two things.
00:28:49 --> 00:28:54 We're seeing that every day. Every other headline is about the richest man in
00:28:54 --> 00:28:58 the world who owns five tech companies and all the things he's doing in our government.
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 The book talks about a lot of that and focuses on a lot of that.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:10 And hopefully through the fictional perspective on that, it'll amplify for people
00:29:10 --> 00:29:12 the real danger inherent there.
00:29:12 --> 00:29:19 It's not just any other day in U.S. politics. We're in a whole new world.
00:29:20 --> 00:29:22 Those are my two. Michael, what about you?
00:29:23 --> 00:29:29 I think those are great points, Will. I would just add that in imagining Michael and Pam and their story,
00:29:30 --> 00:29:35 at the end of it, you see a couple who've gone through hell,
00:29:35 --> 00:29:39 really, and have come up the other side and are still together and still looking
00:29:39 --> 00:29:42 towards the future and still love each other.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:45 So it is a love story, too, in a way.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:49 And I think that that's something I'd like the reader to think about when they
00:29:49 --> 00:29:56 finish the book is who matters to them in their world and how can they be better for that person?
00:29:56 --> 00:29:59 For all the reasons, we'll just elaborate.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:05 Because we are so interconnected, but often we don't connect in that technical possibility.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:10 And we've seen what the powerful and rich can do to government.
00:30:11 --> 00:30:16 And so if you connect with people that you do love, maybe you can make a difference.
00:30:17 --> 00:30:21 Somehow to that world that we've imagined and kind of stare at.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:28 Yeah. So one of the, one of the popular things on social media people do with
00:30:28 --> 00:30:32 AI is like they merge things like they'll merge,
00:30:32 --> 00:30:39 like, I don't know, a monster from our Halloween tradition with like a football team. Right.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 And, and it comes up with this unique creature that, that you, watch.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:51 In reading the book, Brian Davis, I was thinking this was the AI merger between
00:30:51 --> 00:30:55 our current president and the richest man in the world.
00:30:55 --> 00:31:02 Would that be a fair description of Brian Davis's character in this book?
00:31:02 --> 00:31:04 I think we need to give you a co-author credit.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:12 That's bang on yes yes okay i
00:31:12 --> 00:31:18 just you know it's like you're reading it i was like saying okay yeah i i see
00:31:18 --> 00:31:22 these these two merged in together that's that's pretty interesting all right
00:31:22 --> 00:31:30 so without giving away too much when is the sequel gonna drop are we working on it are we,
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 just kind of waiting to see how people receive it. What are we doing?
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 We're brainstorming. We have lots of fun ideas. Given your last comment,
00:31:41 --> 00:31:43 Erik, we may need to bring you into the brainstorming sessions.
00:31:45 --> 00:31:50 But the publishing industry, I've learned through a lot of what I've learned
00:31:50 --> 00:31:53 has actually been in my collaboration with Michael.
00:31:54 --> 00:32:01 Unbelievably slow glacial pace so a lot of the books that come out hit the shelves,
00:32:01 --> 00:32:08 the the first movement on them were five ten years earlier even longer so we
00:32:08 --> 00:32:11 don't have anything we're we're announcing or anything that's moved too far
00:32:11 --> 00:32:16 but we're really excited about the sequel and and the characters i think michael
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 and pam are great characters and like i said And Michael added,
00:32:20 --> 00:32:22 you know, a bunch of incredible,
00:32:23 --> 00:32:27 fascinating characters to that initial idea and the way they all interact together.
00:32:27 --> 00:32:32 So we're really excited about a series, but we're moving slow,
00:32:32 --> 00:32:35 which is consistent with the industry in terms of actual release dates.
00:32:36 --> 00:32:42 If, you know, if, as I said earlier, if a Netflix or a streamer got interested,
00:32:43 --> 00:32:45 we would move a lot faster.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 I mean in that we think that this has
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 got potential for limited series because of its
00:32:50 --> 00:32:53 structure and the characters and that it continues
00:32:53 --> 00:32:56 and that it's a political thriller you
00:32:56 --> 00:33:00 know as well so in an unexpected way nobody is
00:33:00 --> 00:33:04 inside the seat of power in the story I mean Michael and Cameron are as far
00:33:04 --> 00:33:08 from it as you can imagine yet they get thrust into the middle of it and what
00:33:08 --> 00:33:12 happens if that happens to us you know so I think it's a unique angle and a
00:33:12 --> 00:33:16 fresh end to explore so we'll Yeah.
00:33:17 --> 00:33:23 Well, I mean, that's that's cool because I definitely want to see this story finish out.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:28 Like I said, I was reading it and it looked like things were coming to a close.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:32 And I looked at the book and I said, oh, there's still quite a few pages left.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:38 I don't think we're at the end yet. So and I was right. So, again,
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 excellent job on the book, guys.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:44 Incredible. How can people get the book?
00:33:45 --> 00:33:48 Make you get it google go ahead sorry no
00:33:48 --> 00:33:52 please google a quiet
00:33:52 --> 00:33:55 life michael mckinley william cooper you'll see
00:33:55 --> 00:34:00 it all the various places you get your books or go to amazon target it's on
00:34:00 --> 00:34:05 the shelves in local bookstores as well but the easiest thing you can do and
00:34:05 --> 00:34:10 and this feels like the kind of the way to get most things these days is throw
00:34:10 --> 00:34:12 it in google and see where your,
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 preferred vendor pops up with it. It's everywhere. Books are sold.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:23 Barnes & Noble, Target, the whole nine yards.
00:34:24 --> 00:34:28 If I might add, Erik, my favorite bookselling website these days is bookshop.org,
00:34:28 --> 00:34:32 which supports all the independent booksellers in the country.
00:34:32 --> 00:34:34 It has great prices as well.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:38 All the places we'll mention and bookshop.org will all let you get it.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:43 Michael, if people want to reach out to you, How can they get in touch with you?
00:34:44 --> 00:34:51 They can contact me on my website, which is www.liberteo, L-I-B-E,
00:34:51 --> 00:34:53 liberteo, and then A-Y-O, dot com.
00:34:54 --> 00:34:57 All right. And Will, how can people reach out to you?
00:34:58 --> 00:35:04 Easiest way is my website, W-I-L-L hyphen C-O-O-P-E-R dot com.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09 Well, guys, first of all, I'm really, really happy for both of y'all.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:18 I hope this is successful as far as a, you know, a venture, as far as,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:21 you know, getting people to buy the book. Hopefully this this helps.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:29 But I really, really thoroughly enjoyed it. And I don't usually read a lot of fiction anymore.
00:35:29 --> 00:35:34 If I if I read fiction, it's to get away from politics. more so.
00:35:34 --> 00:35:39 I am one of the few human beings who have yet to see House of Cards any episode.
00:35:41 --> 00:35:47 And I think it went on for like six years, I think. But, you know, it's like as far as.
00:35:48 --> 00:35:52 You know, I'm more of if I'm going to get into the thing is like science fiction,
00:35:52 --> 00:35:56 that kind of stuff, even though science fiction has a lot of political implications,
00:35:56 --> 00:36:00 it still takes me away from this particular world. Right.
00:36:00 --> 00:36:07 And so to read your book and to be thoroughly entertained and caught up in it,
00:36:08 --> 00:36:12 you know, because it's like, you know, once you once you pick it up and start
00:36:12 --> 00:36:14 reading it, it's really hard to put down.
00:36:14 --> 00:36:17 And and so y'all did a masterful job
00:36:17 --> 00:36:20 on it and again like i said i wish y'all
00:36:20 --> 00:36:23 much success so so so thank you for that and and
00:36:23 --> 00:36:27 when you do come up with the sequel hopefully i'll still be out here in the
00:36:27 --> 00:36:33 world podcasting or whatever but i i definitely will want y'all to come back
00:36:33 --> 00:36:38 and and promote that as well because if if it's anything like this book here
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41 quiet life it's it's going to be a great book as well.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:46 Thank you, Erik. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Erik. Appreciate it.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:53 All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. We'll be right back.
00:36:49 --> 00:37:08 Music.
00:37:08 --> 00:37:14 All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Lindsay Cormack.
00:37:15 --> 00:37:20 Lindsey Cormack is an associate professor of political science at Stevens Institute
00:37:20 --> 00:37:23 of Technology and a director of the Diplomacy Lab.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:30 Her research explores congressional communication, civic education and electoral systems.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:36 Lindsey is the creator of DC Inbox, a comprehensive digital archive of Congress
00:37:36 --> 00:37:42 to constituent e-newsletters and the author of How to Raise a Citizen and Why
00:37:42 --> 00:37:45 It Is Up to You to Do It, and Congress and U.S.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:48 Veterans from the GI Bill to the VA Crisis.
00:37:49 --> 00:37:52 Her work has been featured in The New York Times, The Washington Post,
00:37:52 --> 00:37:55 Bloomberg Businessweek, Big Think, and more.
00:37:55 --> 00:38:00 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:38:00 --> 00:38:04 on this podcast, Lindsey Cormack.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:16 Music.
00:38:16 --> 00:38:19 All right. Lindsey Cormack. How are you doing, Professor? You doing good?
00:38:19 --> 00:38:23 I'm doing good today. Thanks for having me. Classes are doing okay?
00:38:24 --> 00:38:27 Classes are going great. We're coming up on midterms and it's feeling really fun.
00:38:28 --> 00:38:33 Yeah. Yeah. I remember those days. As a student, I didn't get to teach in the
00:38:33 --> 00:38:35 college level, but yeah.
00:38:35 --> 00:38:39 Yeah. Midterm was like, okay, halfway through, you're going to make it.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:41 That's right. You're going to get there. Spring's coming. Yeah.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:48 All right. So I like to start off with some icebreakers before we get into the interview.
00:38:49 --> 00:38:54 And the first icebreaker is a quote. So I want you to respond to this quote.
00:38:54 --> 00:39:01 The greatest danger to a democracy is an uninformed electorate where legislators
00:39:01 --> 00:39:07 bow to the demands of the ignorant majority instead of governing based on the
00:39:07 --> 00:39:11 best interests of greater society. What does that quote mean to you?
00:39:11 --> 00:39:17 So that is something that I would a thousand percent agree with in the sense
00:39:17 --> 00:39:22 that democracy doesn't care how smart you are, how educated you are. We all count the same.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:28 And so the real risk that we have is having, you know, a set of people who believe
00:39:28 --> 00:39:31 something that is maybe either not true or something that doesn't actually help,
00:39:32 --> 00:39:33 but acting upon that impulse.
00:39:33 --> 00:39:37 And so understanding our system better, understanding our sort of like place
00:39:37 --> 00:39:41 in that system and how to navigate all the complexities of all the issues.
00:39:41 --> 00:39:47 And it is important for having a more functional and more fun operational democracy. Yeah.
00:39:47 --> 00:39:53 All right. So the next icebreaker, I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 13.
00:39:54 --> 00:40:02 Okay. So your question is, do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?
00:40:03 --> 00:40:05 No, and because it would be impossible.
00:40:06 --> 00:40:07 Okay. Okay.
00:40:09 --> 00:40:13 Like we all come at the world with a different perspective based on our lived
00:40:13 --> 00:40:16 experiences. The stories we tell are biased.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:19 Those ones we choose not to tell, we can never see. So, yeah,
00:40:19 --> 00:40:24 I think it's impossible to think that there's such a thing as an unbiased anything. I understand.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:28 All right. Well, that's kind of Hobbesian, but, you know, it's OK.
00:40:28 --> 00:40:30 I understand. I understand.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:36 You stated in your book, How to Raise a Citizen, four reasons why Americans
00:40:36 --> 00:40:40 don't know as much about politics as we should.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:48 Intricate by design, a tradition of not talking, hating politics and schools out.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:52 Which one does the most damage in your
00:40:52 --> 00:40:55 opinion oh i really like
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 that question which one does the most damage because i do think they're all
00:40:59 --> 00:41:02 damaging intricate design is not the answer because that's just sort of how
00:41:02 --> 00:41:09 it is i think yeah the most damage is probably this narrative that politics
00:41:09 --> 00:41:14 is all bad or that it's for egomaniacs and it's only for people who want to like rig a game.
00:41:14 --> 00:41:18 I think this hating politics narrative that we teach our kids from the time
00:41:18 --> 00:41:23 they're little until we're dead is problematic because then we have this sort
00:41:23 --> 00:41:28 of like complaint orientation to politics versus an orientation that's like,
00:41:28 --> 00:41:29 well, this is my government.
00:41:29 --> 00:41:32 How can I make it better? So I think that's probably the most damaging.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:42 Yeah, because, you know, So one of the things you stress is for parents to,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:44 well, I'll get into that a little later.
00:41:45 --> 00:41:48 I'll get into that a little later because I do have a direct question about that.
00:41:49 --> 00:41:54 How challenging is it as a political science professor to teach incoming college
00:41:54 --> 00:41:56 students about politics?
00:41:56 --> 00:42:00 I mean, I'll say that I thought it was more challenging when I started.
00:42:00 --> 00:42:04 And now that I've been doing it for 10 years, I just realized the exercise is
00:42:04 --> 00:42:08 not make sure they know everything that I think they need to know.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:11 It's figure out where they're at and start building upon that.
00:42:12 --> 00:42:15 Teach them the tools to go figure out stuff as it arises in their life.
00:42:15 --> 00:42:20 And so it's not difficult per se, but it is a little bit depressing in the sense
00:42:20 --> 00:42:24 that at the school that I'm at, I have really smart students who have like great
00:42:24 --> 00:42:25 test scores and all the admissions exams.
00:42:26 --> 00:42:30 They're really good at doing school. But if you ask them about very basic things
00:42:30 --> 00:42:31 about the federal government,
00:42:31 --> 00:42:34 they will not know the answer If you ask them really anything about state and
00:42:34 --> 00:42:38 local government, they won't know the answer and that's not their fault I don't
00:42:38 --> 00:42:41 think like oh man, you know, these kids are so bad at it I think oh man,
00:42:41 --> 00:42:45 what have we done to them systematically that they don't know these things?
00:42:45 --> 00:42:48 We've given them the power to be 18 year olds who can vote But how can they
00:42:48 --> 00:42:52 really exercise that if they do not understand the system that they're a part of?
00:42:53 --> 00:42:57 Yeah Yeah. So I've had political science professors on.
00:42:57 --> 00:43:03 And so one of the things I try to ask him is, what do you learn from your students
00:43:03 --> 00:43:05 to make you a better professor?
00:43:05 --> 00:43:09 I mean, I learn something every day from them. I think that's one of the reasons
00:43:09 --> 00:43:11 it's the best job that anyone can ever do.
00:43:11 --> 00:43:16 Because young people are hopeful. They are not as jaded as older people.
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 And they sort of like come to the world with this less prejudicial lens.
00:43:20 --> 00:43:23 They don't know what the Democratic answer is. They don't know what the Republican answer is.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:26 And so they're just sort of trying to make sense of their world.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:30 And they teach me stuff all the time. I ask roll call questions at the beginning
00:43:30 --> 00:43:34 of every day, and four of them are like to make sure that they read what's happening.
00:43:34 --> 00:43:38 And I only call on five students at random. But the fifth question is always,
00:43:38 --> 00:43:40 what's good or new in politics since I last saw you?
00:43:41 --> 00:43:44 And I learned something in that because we all have different media diets.
00:43:44 --> 00:43:47 The algorithms are going to put different things in front of us,
00:43:47 --> 00:43:48 and they teach me stuff all the time.
00:43:48 --> 00:43:52 And then I have to go write it on the board and say, oh, I did not know that. I have not heard that.
00:43:53 --> 00:43:56 And then I follow up. I figure it out. And then we have this online thing where
00:43:56 --> 00:43:58 I put it in the announcements and say, here's what I found.
00:43:58 --> 00:44:01 What is it that you guys were seeing when you told me about this?
00:44:01 --> 00:44:02 Yeah, that's pretty cool.
00:44:03 --> 00:44:08 All right. So I don't know if you did any background on me, but I used to be an elected official.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:16 So what advantage do I have as a politician knowing that only 47 percent of the U.S.
00:44:16 --> 00:44:20 Adult population can identify the three branches of government?
00:44:20 --> 00:44:24 What advantage do you have as someone who's lived on the other side of this? Yes.
00:44:25 --> 00:44:28 I mean, you have tons of advantages. You have the experiential advantage of
00:44:28 --> 00:44:31 understanding how the pieces work or don't work together.
00:44:31 --> 00:44:35 I imagine you have a better viewpoint on like how different layers of government
00:44:35 --> 00:44:40 can interact or don't, or also how the system is reinforcing and sometimes a
00:44:40 --> 00:44:44 little dysfunctional. And it's not something that I really fault people for not knowing this.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:48 But I do think that if we really want this experiment, this United States enterprise
00:44:48 --> 00:44:52 to go as well as it can, we have to want to know these things.
00:44:52 --> 00:44:56 People who are on the inside like you, you do have a leg up because you've lived it.
00:44:56 --> 00:45:00 But we would all be better if we knew a little bit more. Yeah,
00:45:00 --> 00:45:04 so I was thinking more of a conniving kind of thing.
00:45:04 --> 00:45:07 I was going Hobbesian myself on that question.
00:45:07 --> 00:45:13 As a politician, how do I, in order to stay elected?
00:45:13 --> 00:45:18 How does that give me an advantage that people don't know stuff about their government?
00:45:19 --> 00:45:22 Well, it's much harder to hold you accountable. You can get away with a lot
00:45:22 --> 00:45:24 more if we don't know things.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:29 And I'll tell you something in my world. I run this database called DC Inbox
00:45:29 --> 00:45:33 and it's members of Congress in their official capacity that send emails to their constituents.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:38 And all the time they will say things like, I introduced this bill or this is
00:45:38 --> 00:45:42 going to happen here. And that's not true. And they know it's not going anywhere
00:45:42 --> 00:45:45 because they'll be in the minority party. and be like, I'm doing this work on your behalf.
00:45:45 --> 00:45:49 And I'll be like, this bill is going to get referred to three committees and
00:45:49 --> 00:45:51 die in committee. And there's no way this gets passed.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:54 But your constituents, you look like you sure are trying really hard.
00:45:54 --> 00:45:57 And so the less you know, the harder it is to hold people accountable.
00:45:58 --> 00:46:01 And people on the inside, they know that too. Yeah.
00:46:01 --> 00:46:05 So, you know, it was kind of scary when I first ran for the legislature.
00:46:05 --> 00:46:09 I had run for office before, but when I first ran for the legislature,
00:46:09 --> 00:46:10 it was a special election.
00:46:11 --> 00:46:17 So I had to go get signatures. And, you know, some of the questions that people
00:46:17 --> 00:46:24 asked me was like, oh, my God, these people don't know a lot of stuff that's going on.
00:46:25 --> 00:46:28 And I remember one guy, he signed a petition. He said, oh, yeah, yeah.
00:46:29 --> 00:46:31 He said, now, that means you get to go to Washington, right?
00:46:32 --> 00:46:35 And I said, no, I go right downtown. You know, that big building downtown with the dome?
00:46:36 --> 00:46:38 He said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's why I'll be working if y'all vote for me.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:40 He said, oh, okay, I got you. I got you.
00:46:40 --> 00:46:45 Also, there's a state Congress, too. So I really had to give like a quick civics lesson right then.
00:46:46 --> 00:46:50 But the scariest thing I ever had was when I was I think was the first time
00:46:50 --> 00:46:52 I ran for the U.S. Senate in 2006.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:57 And it was a lawyer. We were at a barbershop and it was a lawyer.
00:46:58 --> 00:47:01 And he said, Fleming, now, when you get elected to the Senate,
00:47:01 --> 00:47:06 which part of the state are you going to represent the northern part or the southern part?
00:47:07 --> 00:47:11 And in my mind, I was like going, this is a lawyer asking me his question?
00:47:11 --> 00:47:14 A grown and older man. He was older than me. And I was like,
00:47:15 --> 00:47:20 oh, my God. So, you know, I asked that question and somebody's like,
00:47:20 --> 00:47:21 okay, how can I take advantage of this?
00:47:21 --> 00:47:27 But in real life, it was very, very scary to me that how uninformed,
00:47:27 --> 00:47:31 you know, a good number of people are.
00:47:31 --> 00:47:36 People that you would think would know stuff, just don't really know the basic
00:47:36 --> 00:47:37 operations of government.
00:47:37 --> 00:47:41 And now we live in a society where we get all this information and we're being
00:47:41 --> 00:47:46 thrown this, you know, and people got to make decisions. It's now stand in line.
00:47:47 --> 00:47:51 It's just, it's really, really kind of scary to me. Does it scare you a little bit or?
00:47:52 --> 00:47:55 I don't know if fear is the emotion that I have to that.
00:47:55 --> 00:48:01 I sort of have sort of like an empathetic sadness, which is no one raises themselves.
00:48:02 --> 00:48:05 No one is responsible for learning everything that they're going to learn.
00:48:05 --> 00:48:10 And we sort of put it on people to learn this stuff because we don't teach it in schools by and large.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:14 And so when I have people later in life who like really don't know the basics
00:48:14 --> 00:48:16 and plenty of people confide to me, be like, I don't actually know this.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:20 I'm like, No one knows this. Don't feel bad about that.
00:48:20 --> 00:48:24 So many people don't know these things. And it's really not anyone's individual fault.
00:48:24 --> 00:48:27 It's sort of our collective fault for thinking someone else will take care of
00:48:27 --> 00:48:31 it or someone else will think about this thing instead of recognizing like,
00:48:31 --> 00:48:34 oh, no, we are the crew of this experiment.
00:48:35 --> 00:48:38 We are not just passengers in democracy. We're the crew that powers it.
00:48:38 --> 00:48:40 So we have to figure out a little bit more. Yeah.
00:48:41 --> 00:48:47 So in your answers, you allowed me to bring up a couple of questions real quick,
00:48:48 --> 00:48:49 a little earlier than I planned.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:56 What changes, since you mentioned D.C. Inbox, what changes have you seen in
00:48:56 --> 00:49:02 letters from congressmen or women to their constituents as far as what they
00:49:02 --> 00:49:05 tell them or just the style even?
00:49:05 --> 00:49:10 Yeah, there's a lot of big stylistic changes. This database started in 2009
00:49:10 --> 00:49:12 and the Internet was like a lot weirder back then.
00:49:12 --> 00:49:15 It was much more idiosyncratic and it was much more text focused.
00:49:15 --> 00:49:21 And in the last 15 years, more so on the Republican side than the Democratic side,
00:49:21 --> 00:49:24 there's been a shift to doing shorter things with pictures or shorter things
00:49:24 --> 00:49:29 with like infographics or images that sort of explain a situation versus a lot
00:49:29 --> 00:49:31 of text that kind of describes the details.
00:49:31 --> 00:49:37 It's also the case that sort of since Donald Trump won in 2016,
00:49:37 --> 00:49:42 the use of all capital letters, again, more on the Republican side than the
00:49:42 --> 00:49:45 Democratic side, is something that you can sort of see stylistically,
00:49:45 --> 00:49:48 where, you know, that like all caps yelling, very important thing.
00:49:48 --> 00:49:52 That really wasn't a feature of most congressional communication until that
00:49:52 --> 00:49:56 became palatable or at least acceptable for the president. And then they sort of took that on, too.
00:49:58 --> 00:50:01 There's plenty of things to learn in it, like men and women talk about different
00:50:01 --> 00:50:05 things, depending on people's sort of backgrounds. If they were like businessmen
00:50:05 --> 00:50:07 or doctors or lawyers, they have different styles.
00:50:08 --> 00:50:11 But it's just like a tool that is free for anyone to use.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:15 I know a lot from it, but it is my like sincerest hope that other people learn
00:50:15 --> 00:50:18 what they're going to learn. I just had a reporter from Congressional Quarterly
00:50:18 --> 00:50:22 reach out to me because he was like, I want to see how often they're cursing in these things.
00:50:22 --> 00:50:26 I was like, OK, well, let's look into it. And I just like went through five curse words with him.
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 I had someone else who was asking me about the word feminism.
00:50:30 --> 00:50:32 And I was like, they don't really say that that much in these things.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:36 So you can you can learn really anything you want by just querying the database and figuring it out.
00:50:36 --> 00:50:40 Yeah. Yeah. That's that's pretty that's interesting. And it's also pretty cool
00:50:40 --> 00:50:44 that you have that running archive like that.
00:50:45 --> 00:50:49 Should there be a national curriculum for American politics that is required
00:50:49 --> 00:50:51 for high school students to graduate?
00:50:52 --> 00:50:56 Yeah, it's a really hard question because we don't have really anything in the
00:50:56 --> 00:50:58 way of a national curriculum anywhere, right?
00:50:58 --> 00:51:01 It's like all the states get so much leeway on what they're going to do.
00:51:01 --> 00:51:05 And then once you break it down into states, we know that all the districts do it differently.
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 Parochial schools are different than independent schools and charter schools
00:51:08 --> 00:51:12 and public schools. And so I'm not sure that it's even a worthwhile thing to
00:51:12 --> 00:51:16 think about because the fight then is like, what are we going to put in that national curriculum?
00:51:16 --> 00:51:21 I think the best thing that we can do is give it more time in the classroom,
00:51:21 --> 00:51:25 because if we look at time in the classroom from the 1940s to today, it's only decreased.
00:51:25 --> 00:51:29 And the way that we do it is not particularly effective, no matter how you're
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 looking at that data. like the nation's report card assessing civics education
00:51:33 --> 00:51:37 in eighth grade has been stagnant from 1998 until today.
00:51:37 --> 00:51:43 If we look at APUS test scores for APUS government, it's one of the lowest scoring
00:51:43 --> 00:51:47 tests every year it's administered except in 2024.
00:51:47 --> 00:51:50 And at first you might think like, oh my God, they're really teaching it.
00:51:50 --> 00:51:51 They're turning it around.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:56 But instead what they did in 2024 is they recalibrated the grading because not
00:51:56 --> 00:51:58 enough kids were getting college credit for it.
00:51:58 --> 00:52:02 And so we haven't taught them different things. We've grade inflated in a way
00:52:02 --> 00:52:05 that says, like, just because you don't know as much means you're going to get passed here anyhow.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:10 So I don't think the question is, like, should it be one nationalized standardizer?
00:52:10 --> 00:52:11 I don't have an answer to that.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:15 The only answer I have is we need more time, and it needs to happen at a lot
00:52:15 --> 00:52:17 of different entry points, not just in the schools.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:20 But you need to see it in your homes. You should see it in your communities.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:22 We should have it as a value.
00:52:22 --> 00:52:27 And frankly, as one of the best things about being in America is the agency
00:52:27 --> 00:52:28 to change your government.
00:52:28 --> 00:52:31 So it's not something that should be like, that's for nerds or that's for evil
00:52:31 --> 00:52:33 people. It's like, no, this should be for all of us. It's amazing.
00:52:34 --> 00:52:37 Yeah. And I share your enthusiasm in that.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:40 And that's the reason why I cast a question like that is because,
00:52:40 --> 00:52:45 you know, if you're going to be a citizen in the United States, you have to take a test.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:51 And and they have these flashcards and all this stuff. And if you've I'm sure
00:52:51 --> 00:52:52 you've looked at those flashcards.
00:52:53 --> 00:52:59 I've looked at them and and I'm like, I know a lot of my friends would not pass
00:52:59 --> 00:53:02 this if their citizenship was on the line. Right. Yeah.
00:53:03 --> 00:53:07 And schools are moving to do that. So that's sort of a wave of educational reform
00:53:07 --> 00:53:08 that's happening right now.
00:53:08 --> 00:53:11 Schools are like, we're going to make our students pass the citizen test.
00:53:11 --> 00:53:15 And what they mean in most of their actual implementations is they're going
00:53:15 --> 00:53:18 to give 10 questions from the 100-question list.
00:53:18 --> 00:53:22 And if you get six right, you will be considered as someone who's passed.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:25 Now, do I think that's actually an effective way to teach civics? No.
00:53:26 --> 00:53:29 Do you ask educational experts about it? Is that an effective way? No.
00:53:29 --> 00:53:33 We know experiential and action civics are far more useful in terms of letting
00:53:33 --> 00:53:36 students understand their own agency and how they do this process.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:42 Can they remember some pieces of historical information and tell it to you with a 60% success rate? Yes.
00:53:42 --> 00:53:47 And so I don't think that's like the way to do it, but I do understand that
00:53:47 --> 00:53:50 that on paper seems like a good thing. And there's plenty of states that are
00:53:50 --> 00:53:53 moving to say, like, well, we're going to have our students pass the citizenship test.
00:53:53 --> 00:53:56 I'm like, you mean your students are going to have multiple chances to take
00:53:56 --> 00:53:59 a test where they have to get 60 percent of the answers right?
00:53:59 --> 00:54:02 OK, I don't know that that's like the most effective way to do it. Yeah.
00:54:03 --> 00:54:09 Yeah. You know, this you put a map in the book and it was really,
00:54:09 --> 00:54:13 really scary because it was like I was looking at Nebraska. Right.
00:54:13 --> 00:54:16 Nebraska has the most unique system. Right.
00:54:17 --> 00:54:24 It's the only one that's unicameral, and yet there is no requirement for the students to learn that.
00:54:24 --> 00:54:28 And I'm like going, if there would be any state, it would seem like it would
00:54:28 --> 00:54:32 be Nebraska, because Louisiana, they have a different kind of law.
00:54:33 --> 00:54:37 But, I mean, you know, Nebraska is the only state that's unicameral,
00:54:37 --> 00:54:43 so you think that they would take some pride in teaching that and helping citizens
00:54:43 --> 00:54:49 understand how that works compared to the other 49 states where they have a bicameral system.
00:54:50 --> 00:54:53 Yeah, and that's not to say that there's no schools in Nebraska teaching it.
00:54:54 --> 00:54:57 It's just to say that there's not a statewide requirement that this gets taught
00:54:57 --> 00:55:01 in any of the K through 12 years. Nebraska is also unique in that it splits
00:55:01 --> 00:55:05 its electoral college votes in a way that only itself and Maine does.
00:55:06 --> 00:55:09 All the states have sort of like quirks that are particular to them.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:13 And the reason that I put that map in there is to show that it's a very hard
00:55:13 --> 00:55:17 problem to get your head around in the first place. When we say like, what are they learning?
00:55:17 --> 00:55:21 And it's like, well, the answer is not enough. But I can't tell you the specific
00:55:21 --> 00:55:24 thing in every piece because it's so multifaceted.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:27 And when it gets right down to it, it kind of depends on like who happens to
00:55:27 --> 00:55:30 be in that classroom. It's really hard to say, here's what all the students
00:55:30 --> 00:55:33 are exposed to because they're not exposed to the same things.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:42 So what is what should be the bare minimum an American citizen should know about their government?
00:55:43 --> 00:55:45 Well, I mean, it depends on what you want them to be able to do.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:47 But I'll tell you what I think is lacking right now.
00:55:48 --> 00:55:52 I think there's a really big piece that's lacking around what does the Constitution say?
00:55:52 --> 00:55:55 And what I mean by that is most of our students get out through K through 12
00:55:55 --> 00:55:59 and they will never have read it from beginning to end. It's only about 19 pages
00:55:59 --> 00:56:04 and every person who's ever like played a board game knows that it goes better
00:56:04 --> 00:56:06 if you understand the rules of the game.
00:56:06 --> 00:56:09 And so I think it's important that we before we set our kids free and be like,
00:56:09 --> 00:56:13 go ahead, take on the rights of voting and all the other responsibilities of adulthood.
00:56:13 --> 00:56:17 They should understand the rules that are underlying that. I find that in Intro
00:56:17 --> 00:56:20 to American Politics, that's one of the most eye-opening things because they're
00:56:20 --> 00:56:22 like, oh, no one ever taught me this or I never read this.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:25 Or they think it was written in like old English and they're not going to be
00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 able to get it. It's like, no, everyone, this really spells out a lot of things.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:30 So I think that's part one.
00:56:30 --> 00:56:35 I think part two is federalism is so incredibly important.
00:56:35 --> 00:56:38 And when we interviewed teachers across the United States, that's something
00:56:38 --> 00:56:41 that they themselves said, like a lot of them don't have a grasp on it.
00:56:41 --> 00:56:44 They don't know that the federal government does different things than the state
00:56:44 --> 00:56:46 government, than the local government.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:49 And what I find is most college students that I interact with don't appreciate
00:56:49 --> 00:56:54 that many of the things they care about, stuff like marijuana legalization or
00:56:54 --> 00:56:59 access to reproductive health care or access to guns, is mostly controlled at the state level.
00:56:59 --> 00:57:02 Those are not really federal questions right now, but they don't even really
00:57:02 --> 00:57:06 know how that system works. I also think we need to have more opportunities
00:57:06 --> 00:57:10 to build the muscle memory of what it is to have a hard conversation.
00:57:10 --> 00:57:16 Because we have really over-indexed on like personal sort of like non-annoyance
00:57:16 --> 00:57:19 where it's like I want to watch my media and listen to my things and not have
00:57:19 --> 00:57:23 to deal with society and I'm going to hear the opinions that I want to hear anyhow.
00:57:23 --> 00:57:28 But we need to have these lower stakes, real life engagement with one another
00:57:28 --> 00:57:32 where we can listen and learn and then express our views.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:36 And the goal is not, let me convince you I'm right and you're wrong.
00:57:36 --> 00:57:40 The goal is, let's learn a little bit more about how everyone's coming to the table.
00:57:40 --> 00:57:43 And I think if we don't give them those opportunities because we're so focused
00:57:43 --> 00:57:49 on SAT scores and ACT scores, then we are really hurting ourselves because that's
00:57:49 --> 00:57:51 the enterprise. It is a persuasion game.
00:57:51 --> 00:57:54 It is about attention. It is about learning from each other.
00:57:55 --> 00:57:59 But if we don't practice how to do that, it's not surprising that we don't get good outcomes.
00:58:00 --> 00:58:02 Yeah, yeah. I definitely agree with that.
00:58:03 --> 00:58:08 Because if you don't really know anything, it's going to be hard for you to persuade somebody.
00:58:08 --> 00:58:14 And then the challenge is, you know, if I'm a candidate running for something,
00:58:15 --> 00:58:21 if you don't have a grasp of what I'm talking about, then I'm not going to be
00:58:21 --> 00:58:23 able to persuade you because you are confused.
00:58:24 --> 00:58:27 And I think that's where we get caught up in the conversation.
00:58:28 --> 00:58:32 Talking points. It's like, okay, well, this issue, so everybody seems to have
00:58:32 --> 00:58:34 a focus. So we just focus on those issues.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:39 And it's like on a national scale, that may be important, but on a local level,
00:58:39 --> 00:58:43 not so much. It just all depends on where you are.
00:58:43 --> 00:58:46 So yeah, I definitely agree with that.
00:58:46 --> 00:58:50 And I think that's right. When you say people are confused, it's like you put
00:58:50 --> 00:58:55 confusion with mistrust or confusion with distrust, that's not a functional
00:58:55 --> 00:58:57 way to engage in anything.
00:58:57 --> 00:59:02 Like you wouldn't like your medical system if you said all the doctors are liars
00:59:02 --> 00:59:04 and cheats and egomaniacs and the system is rigged.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:08 You have to trust a little bit, but you also need to know that there's stuff to learn.
00:59:08 --> 00:59:11 And that's something that we really don't have that orientation in politics.
00:59:12 --> 00:59:16 It's this other sort of like very negative, very bad place.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:20 When in reality, the fact that most of us have road to drive on,
00:59:20 --> 00:59:25 clean water to drink, schools that are regulated, regulated airways,
00:59:25 --> 00:59:28 that's government intervention and it's good, but we don't really think about it that way.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:31 Yeah, because most people like to say, well, I don't, we don't,
00:59:31 --> 00:59:33 why do we even need government and all that?
00:59:33 --> 00:59:38 And I, and I always tell them and people that listen to the podcast, I use this example a lot.
00:59:38 --> 00:59:43 Just one day, just go and take all the stop signs from your intersection,
00:59:44 --> 00:59:49 close to your house, just take them all away for a day and watch what happens. Right.
00:59:49 --> 00:59:53 As that is an example of what government does.
00:59:53 --> 00:59:58 It's like, you know, that's just a small example, but it politics and government
00:59:58 --> 01:00:00 is in everything that we do.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:05 And that's why I feel that we should pay more attention to it.
01:00:05 --> 01:00:10 I don't want people to be junkies like you and I, but I do want people to have
01:00:10 --> 01:00:14 a working knowledge so they can function and make intelligent decisions.
01:00:14 --> 01:00:18 Absolutely. And so the government's inevitable, like you said,
01:00:18 --> 01:00:21 it's pervasive, it touches everything. But we do sort of have this strange approach
01:00:21 --> 01:00:25 where we're like, we love police officers, we love first responders,
01:00:25 --> 01:00:27 we love firemen. But guess what?
01:00:27 --> 01:00:30 Their budgets don't get allocated unless you have civilian politicians who are
01:00:30 --> 01:00:33 doing that work. And so you can't really have one without the other.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:39 And it doesn't help anyone to not know more. We actually all stand to benefit
01:00:39 --> 01:00:42 if we learn a little bit more, even though it might feel uncomfortable because
01:00:42 --> 01:00:46 many of us are underpracticed and didn't learn as much as we probably would
01:00:46 --> 01:00:47 have wanted to when we were younger.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:52 Yeah. So why do you passionately advocate for parents to teach their children
01:00:52 --> 01:00:54 about government and civics?
01:00:55 --> 01:00:59 Well, look, if I could like wave a magic wand, I would do more of this in schools.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:02 But I can't wave that wand and changing state policy is really hard.
01:01:02 --> 01:01:05 So that's why I think parents have to be the role models here.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:09 It's also the case that other people who are doing similar research have shown
01:01:09 --> 01:01:12 that one of the things that best predicts your child's likelihood to vote,
01:01:13 --> 01:01:16 their likelihood to be willing to engage in conversations that challenge them,
01:01:16 --> 01:01:21 and their general proclivity to things like volunteering or mutual aid is best
01:01:21 --> 01:01:25 influenced by seeing their parents do it or seeing a nice custodial adult,
01:01:25 --> 01:01:27 someone, you could be a grandparent, could be aunt or uncle,
01:01:27 --> 01:01:29 but someone in that role where you pass that down.
01:01:30 --> 01:01:34 And it's okay, I think, for parents and grandparents today to be frustrated
01:01:34 --> 01:01:36 and be like, well, I never learned this or I don't know enough.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:38 But we are the adults in the room now.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:41 And if we want our kids to have something better, it's incumbent upon us to
01:01:41 --> 01:01:43 say, like, well, we're going to change this. We're going to model what that
01:01:43 --> 01:01:45 behavior is. It might be uncomfortable.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:49 It might be new. But it's not a bad thing to do.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:53 And I also think it's important because parents are the best teachers that our
01:01:53 --> 01:01:54 kids are ever going to have.
01:01:54 --> 01:01:58 They learn from what we do and what we don't do. If they never see us vote,
01:01:58 --> 01:02:02 why would they vote? If they never see us have a conversation with a neighbor
01:02:02 --> 01:02:04 about like the state of our sidewalks,
01:02:04 --> 01:02:06 why would they think that that's something they should care about?
01:02:06 --> 01:02:10 We have to show it to them because if we don't do it, they're learning that it doesn't matter.
01:02:10 --> 01:02:15 Yeah, because I was the way I was brought up and I noticed that you had you
01:02:15 --> 01:02:19 credit your civics teacher in high school for being a major influence with you.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:26 In my life, it was my great aunt. And, you know, whenever I got home from school,
01:02:26 --> 01:02:31 she lived across the street. So I would go over there first until my parents got home.
01:02:32 --> 01:02:36 But it was like she would always watch the news. I watched the news with her.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:41 When I was very, very young, my parents got me a set of encyclopedias,
01:02:41 --> 01:02:43 world book encyclopedias to date myself.
01:02:44 --> 01:02:49 And and it was like the president of the United States spread was the most fascinating thing.
01:02:49 --> 01:02:52 It was like two pages of pictures before we even got into the article.
01:02:52 --> 01:02:55 Right. And I said, you know, I want to be one of these guys. Right.
01:02:56 --> 01:03:00 But, you know, my aunt would take me to go vote. Right. Whenever she went to
01:03:00 --> 01:03:03 vote, she would go. And then, you know, sometimes I would go with my parents.
01:03:04 --> 01:03:09 You know, whenever or whatever, because in Chicago, the precincts were either
01:03:09 --> 01:03:13 in somebody's basement or at the church or so it was all walking distance.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:18 Right. So I was really kind of exposed, but it got to a point where my parents
01:03:18 --> 01:03:23 were asking me questions about who should I vote for? What's going on?
01:03:23 --> 01:03:30 You know, I know you pay attention to this, but it's not like that for the majority
01:03:30 --> 01:03:32 of kids, especially African-American kids.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:39 So I just, you know, I just really appreciate you as being an advocate,
01:03:39 --> 01:03:45 pushing for parents to be more engaged in the discussion with their children.
01:03:45 --> 01:03:48 Well, thank you. And I think it's parents, but it's also all of us as adults,
01:03:48 --> 01:03:53 because like you said, you never know who your civic role model is going to be. It might be an aunt.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:57 It might be a neighbor who you happen to hang out with. And if we all are in
01:03:57 --> 01:04:02 this system together, the little actions that we do for our children reverberate for other children.
01:04:02 --> 01:04:06 And when you point out that it's different for African-American youth versus
01:04:06 --> 01:04:09 non-African-American youth, it's also really hard for immigrants who are here
01:04:09 --> 01:04:13 with parents who didn't grow up in this tradition, because they can't really
01:04:13 --> 01:04:15 lean on their parents to say, teach me about this.
01:04:15 --> 01:04:18 And so if we can teach children who had parents who grew up here,
01:04:18 --> 01:04:21 they can do that sort of connective work of like, oh, well, I'm friends with
01:04:21 --> 01:04:25 this kid, or oh, I can sort of expand my network or my social circle with this.
01:04:25 --> 01:04:29 And so the things that we do are not just beneficial for our own little families,
01:04:29 --> 01:04:33 but it does sort of like spread out and influence other families because it
01:04:33 --> 01:04:37 changes the culture around it on these little individual choices.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:44 So my final question is, how does having a better understanding about politics
01:04:44 --> 01:04:47 contribute to positive mental health?
01:04:47 --> 01:04:50 Oh, I love this question. There's a lot of different ways, but I'll give you
01:04:50 --> 01:04:52 sort of the shortest version.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:55 When we think about the things that plague young people right now,
01:04:55 --> 01:05:00 a lot of it is depression and social isolation and anxiety about the future.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:04 All of these things are sort of rooted in not being tethered to something and
01:05:04 --> 01:05:05 some level of uncertainty.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:09 And this feels even worse if we have a media environment that exacerbates everything
01:05:09 --> 01:05:12 with like, here's this breaking news and here's all this stuff and can you believe it?
01:05:12 --> 01:05:15 But if you can come back to some core things with some certainty,
01:05:15 --> 01:05:18 like, oh, I've read the Constitution, I actually don't think that's possible.
01:05:18 --> 01:05:21 Or maybe we'll try this for a little bit and then the courts will step in.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:25 You can calm those parts of your brain. You're far less likely to be susceptible to misinformation.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:29 But the second reason that I think knowing more and understanding and doing
01:05:29 --> 01:05:33 more of your politics is beneficial for mental health is at the local level,
01:05:33 --> 01:05:37 the stuff that requires you to repeatedly show up in person, it gives you purpose.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:41 It gives you a sense of community. It gives you the ability to understand your own agency.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:46 And all of those things are shown to more positively influence mental health
01:05:46 --> 01:05:49 than social isolation, doom scrolling, thinking that, you know,
01:05:49 --> 01:05:51 the world's going to end because you're hearing it from every direction.
01:05:52 --> 01:05:55 If you can just change these small parts and whatever interests you,
01:05:55 --> 01:05:59 whatever's important in your local level, then you're going to be a better rooted,
01:05:59 --> 01:06:03 more functioning human because you have an understanding of the world and you
01:06:03 --> 01:06:04 see yourself as a part of it.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:08 Yeah. And, you know, when I saw that in the book, I was like,
01:06:08 --> 01:06:16 OK, yeah, because this, you know, I'm a big advocate on on mental health and
01:06:16 --> 01:06:19 and having a strong, positive mental health.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:23 I think it's just as important as your physical health, if not more.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:29 So, you know, for you to address it, you know, about being more,
01:06:29 --> 01:06:37 having more of a political efficacy relates to being more positive in your mental
01:06:37 --> 01:06:40 attitude about society and life in general.
01:06:40 --> 01:06:43 I thought that was a really nice touch, and I greatly appreciate that.
01:06:44 --> 01:06:46 I didn't see anything.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:51 Sometimes when I research, you know, for my guests and especially professors,
01:06:51 --> 01:06:57 they got like that little grade thing where you can go online and grade your teachers and all that.
01:06:57 --> 01:07:02 So I didn't see anything pop up on you. But if you were, and I said it was last,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:09 but I got to ask this, if what would you, what have you seen as far as you being a professor,
01:07:09 --> 01:07:13 students say, because there was one, they said, she likes to make us read,
01:07:13 --> 01:07:14 you know what I'm saying? So what is it?
01:07:15 --> 01:07:20 What is it that when students review you, they say, okay, Professor Cormack's going to make us do what?
01:07:21 --> 01:07:26 Yeah, so I have some of my students who like wrote passages that are included
01:07:26 --> 01:07:29 at the end of the book. So it's like knowable what they think about me.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:33 I think the things that they they kind of take from the class is that I make
01:07:33 --> 01:07:37 them inhabit viewpoints that they don't naturally come to.
01:07:37 --> 01:07:41 And what I mean by that is we do these debates in my class where they don't
01:07:41 --> 01:07:42 get to pick what side they're on.
01:07:42 --> 01:07:46 And that means sometimes they have to step into a perspective that they have
01:07:46 --> 01:07:47 not previously thought about.
01:07:47 --> 01:07:50 And at first it's uncomfortable and they don't like it. But then I tell them,
01:07:50 --> 01:07:54 I'm like, guys, this makes you better at understanding your own positions and
01:07:54 --> 01:07:56 values by trying to take the other side for a little bit.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:02 And so I think that sort of like educational friction and like poking is something that I do.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:06 And at first they don't like it. And then they come away with a greater appreciation
01:08:06 --> 01:08:09 because like, oh, that is actually a neat way to learn is to go hang out with
01:08:09 --> 01:08:12 the other side's arguments for a while and see the value in them.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:17 I had a professor that made me take the pro-apartheid position.
01:08:19 --> 01:08:24 That also dates how old I am. When we was in college, apartheid was still there in South Africa.
01:08:24 --> 01:08:29 So I was the captain of the debate team that had to take the pro-apartheid decision.
01:08:29 --> 01:08:36 Now, you know, what I did was I literally wrote the General Counsel of South Africa.
01:08:37 --> 01:08:39 The closest one from where I was in school was to Chicago.
01:08:40 --> 01:08:45 And they sent me like a box of stuff and we cremated my classmates.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:49 You know, it was it was like we were like P.W. Botha's kids,
01:08:49 --> 01:08:51 you know, the way we went at it.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:58 But she would she she she said, that's how I want you to approach issues.
01:08:58 --> 01:09:03 We want you to be able to dissect both sides so you can make an intelligent argument.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:07 Whichever side you're on, if you understand both sides of the argument,
01:09:07 --> 01:09:09 then it makes your argument better.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:12 So I'm glad that you used that approach.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:17 So, Professor, if people want to get in touch with you, if they want to get
01:09:17 --> 01:09:19 your books, how can they do that?
01:09:20 --> 01:09:23 The book is sold anywhere that you buy books online and spaces.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:27 So like Amazon and Barnes and Noble and Bookshop, all of those are equally good.
01:09:27 --> 01:09:31 You can also go to howtoraiseacitizen.com. And if you want me to like sign it
01:09:31 --> 01:09:34 or inscribe it or send it as a gift to someone, if you order it directly from
01:09:34 --> 01:09:37 me, I can do that. And I've been sending those out throughout the United States.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:42 I think the easiest way to contact me is probably like over email or through
01:09:42 --> 01:09:46 Instagram. Those are the places I most often inhabit online. I'm so easy to find.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:49 How to Raise a Citizen has my contact information.
01:09:49 --> 01:09:51 And then on Instagram, I'm also How to Raise a Citizen.
01:09:53 --> 01:09:59 Well, Professor Lindsey Cormack, I greatly appreciate your passion on teaching,
01:09:59 --> 01:10:02 not just the students in the classroom,
01:10:02 --> 01:10:07 but encouraging parents throughout the country to be more engaged in teaching
01:10:07 --> 01:10:12 because it's just something that's really, really needed.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:16 And as somebody that is actually has to ask people for votes,
01:10:16 --> 01:10:21 it's comforting to know that there is somebody out there trying to teach people
01:10:21 --> 01:10:28 the importance of voting and what they need to be voting for and who you're
01:10:28 --> 01:10:29 voting for, what position it is.
01:10:30 --> 01:10:33 So thank you for that. And again, thank you for coming on the podcast.
01:10:34 --> 01:10:35 I greatly appreciate that.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:39 And thank you for doing this work and for having me. I had a really nice time. Yes, ma'am.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:43 All right, guys, we're going to catch you all on the other side. Music.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:54 Music.
01:10:54 --> 01:10:59 All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Will Cooper,
01:11:00 --> 01:11:08 Mike McKinley, and Lindsey Cormack for coming on the show and talking about
01:11:08 --> 01:11:09 their respective books.
01:11:09 --> 01:11:15 And as always, just offering great insight into what's happening.
01:11:15 --> 01:11:22 I really hope that y'all will get those books, especially for parents.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:26 Professor Cormack's book about how to raise a citizen is very,
01:11:26 --> 01:11:31 very good and very encouraging.
01:11:31 --> 01:11:36 Right. You know, she lays out the challenges that's out there,
01:11:36 --> 01:11:41 but it's encouraging that, you know, you can teach it.
01:11:41 --> 01:11:46 And being the professor that she is, if there's some things you need to brush
01:11:46 --> 01:11:49 up on, she puts that in the book as well, right?
01:11:50 --> 01:11:55 Because it's really, really important for our children to be better citizens
01:11:55 --> 01:12:00 and maybe not make the mistakes that we have made, right?
01:12:01 --> 01:12:06 You know, for those of you who are doing that, great. It's still a good book
01:12:06 --> 01:12:08 to kind of refresh you on some things.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:13 If you are not doing that because you believe that it's taboo to talk about
01:12:13 --> 01:12:19 politics and all that stuff, yeah, get over that and teach your kids the basics, okay?
01:12:20 --> 01:12:23 As for Will and Mike's book, it's a great read.
01:12:24 --> 01:12:30 It's a thriller if you didn't gather that from the interview.
01:12:31 --> 01:12:37 And it is telling you when you start reading that book, it'll flow.
01:12:38 --> 01:12:44 It is one of the easiest reads as far as fiction that I've read, right?
01:12:44 --> 01:12:49 I mean, it's just, you know, once you start turning that page and page and the
01:12:49 --> 01:12:51 next thing you know, it's like, oh, my God.
01:12:51 --> 01:12:53 It's like I'm almost finished with this thing.
01:12:54 --> 01:13:01 It's really, really compelling and it's really, really a good read and entertaining and all that.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:09 And I really hope that they can make that into a series or a movie or whatever
01:13:09 --> 01:13:13 the case may be, because to see that on the screen would be would be awesome.
01:13:13 --> 01:13:17 But but read the book because the book is always better than the movie. I'm sorry.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:23 That's just me. But the books are always better than the movie.
01:13:24 --> 01:13:30 All right. So I want to close out with this. and,
01:13:31 --> 01:13:34 It was mentioned in the news that, you know,
01:13:34 --> 01:13:40 Representative Al Green from Texas was censured by the House of Representatives
01:13:40 --> 01:13:49 for basically getting up and pointing his cane at Donald Trump and chastising
01:13:49 --> 01:13:51 the president about cutting Medicaid.
01:13:52 --> 01:13:56 And, you know, Representative Green knew what he was doing was out of order
01:13:56 --> 01:14:00 and he willingly accepted the censure.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:07 He knew that he deserved that, and I thought that him making it clear that he
01:14:07 --> 01:14:10 didn't have anything personal against the Speaker or anything like that,
01:14:10 --> 01:14:13 the rules are the rules, and he knew he was breaking the rules.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:24 He said he did it with intentionality, and he handled that professionally and gracefully.
01:14:25 --> 01:14:29 Here's my take on the whole thing. I never would have been in the room.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:35 Right. Now, some members walked out when they kicked Representative Green out.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:41 But I am of the opinion that none of them should have been there in the first place.
01:14:41 --> 01:14:49 I wanted the visual of all the sycophants, the Republicans,
01:14:50 --> 01:14:59 cheering their avatar on and those who are the opposition not give them an audience.
01:15:00 --> 01:15:06 Right. Because the biggest challenge we have in this society is that we have
01:15:06 --> 01:15:08 to give him an audience because he is the president.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:14 We have to pay attention to what he says. And it was just a simple disagreement
01:15:14 --> 01:15:16 about policy and direction.
01:15:17 --> 01:15:22 That's one thing. But when you are systematically destroying the very nation
01:15:22 --> 01:15:26 that we all live in, it's a whole different conversation.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:29 And it's something that we don't need anymore.
01:15:30 --> 01:15:37 To actively support, right, or give the appearance of supporting,
01:15:37 --> 01:15:39 or give the appearance that this is normal.
01:15:40 --> 01:15:45 And I think if the Democrats had not been in the room at all,
01:15:45 --> 01:15:50 I think on both the House and the Senate side, I think that would have sent
01:15:50 --> 01:15:54 a clear message that this is not a normal time.
01:15:55 --> 01:15:59 And, you know, the reporters were waiting.
01:15:59 --> 01:16:04 They were actually kind of hoping that the Democrats would walk out.
01:16:05 --> 01:16:09 And, you know, that would have been the story. You know what I'm saying?
01:16:09 --> 01:16:12 They would have covered what he said, but the story would have been the Democrats,
01:16:13 --> 01:16:19 you know, and, you know, Senator Slotkin basically got good reviews on her
01:16:19 --> 01:16:20 response to his address.
01:16:21 --> 01:16:29 But the reality was that that should have been it as far as public appearance.
01:16:30 --> 01:16:36 It, you know, members of the Democratic Party are in a tough situation,
01:16:36 --> 01:16:37 especially in Congress,
01:16:38 --> 01:16:47 because they do not have the numbers, right, to push an agenda or really to
01:16:47 --> 01:16:49 stop a lot of the bad stuff that's happening.
01:16:51 --> 01:16:58 But if those members of Congress that have never served in a state legislature
01:16:58 --> 01:17:04 before would take their leave from the Black members who actually have served
01:17:04 --> 01:17:06 in state legislatures before,
01:17:06 --> 01:17:14 I think they would have better strategies of how to deal with this time.
01:17:14 --> 01:17:19 Because black members in state legislatures have always been outnumbered, right?
01:17:20 --> 01:17:26 It's one thing to be outnumbered as a party, but to be outnumbered just because
01:17:26 --> 01:17:28 of your race is a whole different conversation.
01:17:28 --> 01:17:32 And that's what black people have had to deal with throughout this political
01:17:32 --> 01:17:37 process, at least since the end of Reconstruction, right?
01:17:37 --> 01:17:46 So, to me, if there is any time where leadership.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:52 And advice needs to be followed. It should be the black members who have dealt
01:17:52 --> 01:17:56 with being outnumbered all their political lives.
01:17:56 --> 01:18:03 Because we've had to be creative in our protests and the way that we utilize
01:18:03 --> 01:18:10 the rules, the way that we had to strategize to primarily stop bad stuff.
01:18:11 --> 01:18:14 But every now and then get some good stuff passed. Right.
01:18:15 --> 01:18:20 A lot of times if we got some passes because of our individual moxie and relationships
01:18:20 --> 01:18:24 that we had put together on both sides of the aisle to get some stuff done that
01:18:24 --> 01:18:31 needed to be done that could pass the political mustard test. Right.
01:18:31 --> 01:18:40 But the reality is that sometimes you just got to show out a little bit.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:44 But, you know, I'm a member of a,
01:18:44 --> 01:18:52 I'm a former member of a caucus that literally had a member bring a mule train
01:18:52 --> 01:18:58 to the Mississippi State Capitol to highlight an issue.
01:18:58 --> 01:19:01 Right. I've watched it.
01:19:01 --> 01:19:06 The entire Black Caucus get up and speak on a bill to kill it, right?
01:19:07 --> 01:19:15 I've watched us walk out of a state of the state address, you know, to send a message.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:22 I've seen us all vote no for a particular appropriation to send a message to
01:19:22 --> 01:19:26 that agency that you need to do right by Black folk, right?
01:19:26 --> 01:19:31 There's various ways. I mean, you use the rules to read the bills and slow the
01:19:31 --> 01:19:37 process down so you can negotiate and figure out a way to fix some stuff, right?
01:19:37 --> 01:19:42 Even if it's not the bill that you're fighting over, slow the process down.
01:19:42 --> 01:19:46 There's a myriad of things you can do, right?
01:19:46 --> 01:19:53 And if you understand the rules, if you master the rules, you can do it, even as a minority.
01:19:54 --> 01:19:58 I've seen it happen. I've done it. Right.
01:19:59 --> 01:20:06 So. To me, if they had asked little me, what should we do?
01:20:06 --> 01:20:09 I would have told them, don't go.
01:20:10 --> 01:20:14 I probably wouldn't even been at the Capitol building, to be honest,
01:20:14 --> 01:20:17 because it wouldn't have been really important for me to talk to the press.
01:20:17 --> 01:20:21 I think me not being in the chamber was my statement.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:28 Right. But I wouldn't have I wouldn't have been in the room. at all.
01:20:29 --> 01:20:35 And, you know, there's one particular representative that, had I been in a room
01:20:35 --> 01:20:41 and I saw it, Representative Green probably wouldn't have been the only one censored, right?
01:20:41 --> 01:20:46 Because it was one Democrat, I think it was the lady from New Mexico,
01:20:47 --> 01:20:50 was holding up a sign saying this is not normal.
01:20:50 --> 01:20:58 And a Republican, a man, slapped it down out of her hand or snatched it and threw it, something.
01:20:58 --> 01:21:01 But he physically came at her.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:05 If I had seen that, that would have been the last time he would have done that.
01:21:06 --> 01:21:13 And I just, I have no problem saying that because you don't assault fellow members
01:21:13 --> 01:21:16 and especially a man assaulting a woman in that chamber.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:19 That's just not, that's not cool, right?
01:21:21 --> 01:21:23 So I probably would have got in trouble for that.
01:21:24 --> 01:21:28 You know, and they probably would have came down a little harder on me than
01:21:28 --> 01:21:29 they did Representative Green.
01:21:29 --> 01:21:36 But I'm just telling you, you know, it's like that's why I don't think the Democrats
01:21:36 --> 01:21:37 should have even been in the room.
01:21:38 --> 01:21:43 So they wouldn't have had those kind of moments. So the nation would just get
01:21:43 --> 01:21:49 to see them showing out and acting the fool and make their judgment that way.
01:21:49 --> 01:21:54 Because, you know, people that's on their side and say, ah, they didn't even show up and blah, blah.
01:21:54 --> 01:22:00 Bro, it's like Representative Green and Representative Crockett and all those
01:22:00 --> 01:22:06 Democrats from Texas, they were alive when the Democrats in the state of Texas,
01:22:07 --> 01:22:08 in the state legislature,
01:22:08 --> 01:22:13 literally left the state so these folks wouldn't have a legal quorum,
01:22:14 --> 01:22:16 right, to conduct business.
01:22:17 --> 01:22:21 They literally were trying to send the Texas Rangers after these people.
01:22:21 --> 01:22:24 And they were doing interviews and they wouldn't disclose their location.
01:22:25 --> 01:22:29 They hung out for a week outside the Capitol building, shut it down.
01:22:29 --> 01:22:31 Because they were tired of the railroad.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:35 They were tired of the games that were being played.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:44 Because they understood that these decisions that are being made impact people's lives. Literally.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:49 Not just whether they got a job or not, but whether they live or die,
01:22:50 --> 01:22:53 whether they can eat. That's where we are now.
01:22:55 --> 01:22:59 And, you know, drastic times call for drastic measures.
01:23:01 --> 01:23:05 There's an old saying that I always try to live by is that, you know,
01:23:05 --> 01:23:09 a politician thinks of the next election, but a statesman thinks about the next generation.
01:23:11 --> 01:23:15 And if we're going to have an effort to teach people about the process,
01:23:16 --> 01:23:19 then we've got to have a process left for them to participate in.
01:23:20 --> 01:23:24 And at the rate we're going, that might be in question. Now,
01:23:24 --> 01:23:26 not might be, it is in question.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:35 So I would have encouraged my colleagues, including Leader Jeffries and Leader
01:23:35 --> 01:23:40 Schumer, not to be in the room, not to shake anybody's hand, nothing.
01:23:41 --> 01:23:44 Because there's nothing cordial about what's going on.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:47 There's nothing fake cordial about what's going on.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:54 The image that the American people should have seen was one half of the room empty.
01:23:57 --> 01:24:05 And proceed to just go to town. Because even with them being there and showing respect for the office,
01:24:05 --> 01:24:11 you literally had members on the Republican side introducing bills saying that
01:24:11 --> 01:24:14 we're going to kick all the Democrats off committees.
01:24:15 --> 01:24:19 I mean, it is what it is, people.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:25 And it's time that Democrats take the gloves off.
01:24:26 --> 01:24:34 You know, and this line has been paraphrased, and I'm not quoting the line exactly right.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:41 But it was a scene in The MacK where one of the pimps was confronting the Mack,
01:24:42 --> 01:24:48 the main character in the story, about one of his prostitutes being stolen.
01:24:50 --> 01:24:56 Where the guy that played it was Max Julien. and he had this line, and I'm paraphrasing.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:03 He said, we can handle this like gentlemen, but we can get into some gangster shit, right?
01:25:07 --> 01:25:10 So I don't think we can handle it like ladies and gentlemen.
01:25:11 --> 01:25:16 I don't think we can. I think we've gotten past that point. I think we need
01:25:16 --> 01:25:24 to send a message and maybe by sending the message, we can get back to regular dialogue.
01:25:25 --> 01:25:29 But until we get back to that, I think it's time to take the gloves off.
01:25:29 --> 01:25:32 I think it's time for us to do some drastic.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:37 That was an opportunity to do some drastic. Not showing up at all would have
01:25:37 --> 01:25:38 sent a national message.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:45 And then along with, you know, Senator Slotkin making her remarks,
01:25:46 --> 01:25:48 then it should have been a unified message.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:52 It's like, we are not going to normalize tyranny.
01:25:53 --> 01:25:59 We're not going to normalize authoritarianism. We're not going to normalize
01:25:59 --> 01:26:07 what you are seeing in these first few days of the Trump administration because it is not normal.
01:26:08 --> 01:26:09 This is not a normal time.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:13 Governor Walz was right. These people are weird.
01:26:14 --> 01:26:21 These people are not normal. It is not OK. If you get all your news from Fox
01:26:21 --> 01:26:28 or OAN or Newsmax, you are not getting even a third of the story.
01:26:29 --> 01:26:33 You're being force-fed stuff because they're trying to take advantage of your
01:26:33 --> 01:26:36 limited knowledge of the process, right?
01:26:37 --> 01:26:42 I can say that because even though I'm not a regular watcher, I watch enough.
01:26:43 --> 01:26:49 And I read what's on X and other platforms.
01:26:51 --> 01:26:54 And so I know what you're being force-fed.
01:26:55 --> 01:27:02 So I think that would have been a shock to your system. If you saw that half of the room was empty.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:10 Now, you could accept what that story was as it would have been told to you
01:27:10 --> 01:27:14 from those outlets, those conservative outlets.
01:27:14 --> 01:27:19 But human, the human instinct is to inquire a little more.
01:27:19 --> 01:27:25 And you would have gotten a response as to why they didn't show up.
01:27:25 --> 01:27:27 But that would have got your attention.
01:27:27 --> 01:27:33 Right. And as for folks that support the Democrats, that would have been a sign
01:27:33 --> 01:27:36 that, all right, game on.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:41 Because right now, Republicans are frustrated because they're not addressing
01:27:41 --> 01:27:43 the cost of living issues.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:47 And they want to get answers as to why.
01:27:48 --> 01:27:52 And on the other side, the Democratic
01:27:52 --> 01:27:56 side, people are frustrated because it's like, what are we doing?
01:27:57 --> 01:28:04 How what's the game plan how are we going to fight this right and i heard one
01:28:04 --> 01:28:09 announcer and i love her for doing it because i love sports analogies she got
01:28:09 --> 01:28:14 on her show and said this is just the first quarter y'all we still got a whole
01:28:14 --> 01:28:17 game to play we still can win this thing,
01:28:17 --> 01:28:21 we just can't get frustrated we got to stay focused.
01:28:23 --> 01:28:28 No matter how they came out the gate, we still can win this thing. Right.
01:28:28 --> 01:28:32 And that's the mindset we have to have. If we are really,
01:28:32 --> 01:28:40 really concerned and really, really engaged about having an America that lives
01:28:40 --> 01:28:43 up to its creed, then we can't give up now.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:46 We can't get frustrated. We got to start fighting.
01:28:46 --> 01:28:52 We got to change that playbook. Got to get off the script and start,
01:28:52 --> 01:28:55 as Hank Stram said, matriculating down the field.
01:28:56 --> 01:29:01 And the field is politics, the game.
01:29:01 --> 01:29:09 We've got to start making a difference to show that this is not normal.
01:29:09 --> 01:29:16 And there is a group, there are a group of people who are fighting to bring normal back.
01:29:17 --> 01:29:22 Or, to be honest, some semblance of normal, some semblance of order,
01:29:22 --> 01:29:25 some semblance of calm, right?
01:29:25 --> 01:29:30 It's time, again, to take the gloves off. It's time to fight.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:38 And if we are going to win this, then we have to be all in.
01:29:38 --> 01:29:43 We can't half to do it. We can't be on the fence.
01:29:43 --> 01:29:48 You know there's a couple of people this guy from New Hampshire and this lady
01:29:48 --> 01:29:54 from Washington State yeah you know in a different time in a different place
01:29:54 --> 01:29:56 the way that y'all are playing politics,
01:29:57 --> 01:30:02 but you know you trying to censor everybody you know for whatever favor you
01:30:02 --> 01:30:08 think that is or I don't know you know I'm not gonna,
01:30:09 --> 01:30:11 really grill y'all about that but,
01:30:12 --> 01:30:20 Yeah, the normal way of thinking in a political sense right now at the federal level.
01:30:20 --> 01:30:25 Yeah, you're going to have to kick that habit and you're going to have to get
01:30:25 --> 01:30:29 with the program and you're going to have to fight for what you want.
01:30:29 --> 01:30:34 Because I know all you're thinking about is, I want to get reelected. Great.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:40 But if there's no process for you to get elected in, what difference does that make?
01:30:41 --> 01:30:47 It's time to stop being timid. It's time to stop playing it safe.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:56 It's time for us to fight for what we believe in, whatever it takes.
01:30:57 --> 01:31:03 I'll leave you with the story. My dad got upset with me one morning because
01:31:03 --> 01:31:06 I was still at home and I hadn't gone to school.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:10 And I told him I didn't want to go to school today. I'd never missed a day in
01:31:10 --> 01:31:13 school till I got to college. Whole other story.
01:31:14 --> 01:31:19 But from elementary school to, well, no, I missed some days in kindergarten
01:31:19 --> 01:31:20 because I got real sick with asthma.
01:31:21 --> 01:31:26 But basically from first grade on through my senior high school,
01:31:27 --> 01:31:27 I didn't miss a day of school.
01:31:29 --> 01:31:35 And there's one particular day I was still at the house and I didn't realize he was coming home.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:42 And he was upset. Why are you not at school? And I told him, I'm scared.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:46 And he said, why are you scared? I said, because this guy, he threatened to
01:31:46 --> 01:31:50 beat me up and he's going to do it because he's bigger, he's older.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:54 And he said, what do you get mad about? And I said, we were playing football
01:31:54 --> 01:31:55 and I tackled him real hard.
01:31:55 --> 01:31:59 And he'd been wanting to fight me ever since. And, you know,
01:31:59 --> 01:32:01 I avoided him one day, but I didn't want to.
01:32:02 --> 01:32:05 And my dad said, you're going to school.
01:32:06 --> 01:32:09 He said, if you don't go to school, then I'm going to get you,
01:32:09 --> 01:32:11 which I didn't want that to happen.
01:32:12 --> 01:32:20 And he said, if he comes at you and you feel so that you can't handle him hand to hand,
01:32:21 --> 01:32:28 Understand that that's why God always places bricks and bottles on the road for you to grab.
01:32:29 --> 01:32:32 And of course, God doesn't place bricks and bottles that's littering,
01:32:32 --> 01:32:35 but I understood what you're saying.
01:32:35 --> 01:32:37 He's saying, do what you got to do.
01:32:38 --> 01:32:42 If he's beating you one way, then you got to figure out another way to beat
01:32:42 --> 01:32:45 him and get him off of you. And that's where we are.
01:32:45 --> 01:32:53 If we are serious about saving this nation, then we got to use the tools that are available to us.
01:32:53 --> 01:32:57 And some of them are not conventional. Some people might say they're not fair.
01:32:58 --> 01:33:03 We're going to have to utilize those tools to save what we believe in.
01:33:03 --> 01:33:04 Thank you for listening.
01:33:05 --> 01:33:54 Music.
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