[00:00:00] Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of a Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
[00:00:07] I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast. If you like what you're hearing,
[00:00:11] then I need you to do a few things. First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming.
[00:00:20] Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me to free them to speak truth to power and to expand and improve the show.
[00:00:29] Second, leave a five star review for the podcast on the streaming servers you listen to. That will help the podcast tremendously.
[00:00:37] Third, go to the website momenteric.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast, leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes and even learn a little bit about your host.
[00:00:49] Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.
[00:00:53] Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast and share the podcast on your social media platforms because it is time to make this moment a movement.
[00:01:05] Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoyed this episode as well.
[00:01:19] Hello, welcome to the moment where Erik Fleming I am your host Erik Fleming.
[00:01:42] Today we have two guests. If you might have noticed the title, I wanted to do something a little more less serious or a little more lighthearted in the title but the discussions are going to be real.
[00:02:07] I hope that you enjoy my two guests today as they get into politics and legal activism.
[00:02:19] Before we get started, it's time for a moment of news with Grace G.
[00:02:37] Mike Pence, former vice president under Donald Trump announced he will not endorse Trump for the upcoming presidential election.
[00:02:44] Donald Trump suggested he might need to sell parts of his business to cover a $454 million civil fraud judgment in New York.
[00:02:52] A Reuters Ipsos poll found that president Biden's message about Trump posing a threat to democracy is less convincing to black supporters within his base.
[00:03:02] In Georgia, lead prosecutor Fannie Willis will remain on Trump's trial for election interference while her deputy Nathan Wade resigned following the judge's order.
[00:03:11] Vice president Harris expressed that no one should be jailed for marijuana possession and marijuana should be reclassified to a less harmful category.
[00:03:20] Donald Trump's criminal trial in New York related to hush money payments has been delayed by 30 days.
[00:03:27] The U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear the case of a former New Mexico official who was barred from office for participating in the Capitol insurrection.
[00:03:34] The U.S. federal judiciary provided guidance on implementing a new policy to prevent judge-shopping in cases challenging government policies.
[00:03:43] The father of a teenager who killed four students in a Michigan school shooting was convicted of manslaughter.
[00:03:50] Tesla settled a lawsuit with a black former worker Owen Diaz who experienced racial harassment but the settlement details were not disclosed.
[00:03:58] U.S. lawmakers decided to withhold $40 million in aid meant to address violence in Haiti.
[00:04:04] The U.S. government will continue a ban on funding for UNRA, a UN agency for Palestinian refugees until March 2025.
[00:04:13] The U.S. has received unclear responses from Niger after the HUNTA announced the revocation of a deal allowing U.S. troops to operate in the country.
[00:04:22] And FBI data shows a continuing downward trend in homicides and violent crime in the U.S. with a 13% drop in 2023.
[00:04:31] I am Grace G and this has been A Moment of News.
[00:04:44] Alright Grace and thank you for that moment of news.
[00:04:48] And now it is time for my first guest.
[00:04:51] And his name is Nasser Beton.
[00:04:55] Nasser Beton is running to be the first Muslim American elected to the United States Senate.
[00:05:04] Nasser is an immigrant son of a proud U.A.W. member whose family came to this country from Lebanon in 1969.
[00:05:12] His experiences reflect the importance of unions and small businesses in achieving the American dream and creating a more prosperous country.
[00:05:20] Nasser is the successful entrepreneur and small business owner, understanding the connection between economic opportunity and racial justice.
[00:05:30] For more than two decades Nasser has been a fierce advocate for civil rights, calling out injustice wherever it exists.
[00:05:36] While engaging law enforcement to help it better serve and protect the people of Michigan, he is known for building coalitions that promote understanding and unite people to work toward common goals that benefit everyone involved.
[00:05:50] He is also a champion for healthcare reform and the supporters of a stronger public education system.
[00:05:58] Since 2015 Nasser has led the Arab American Civil Rights League, an organization dedicated to equal rights and protections of people of all backgrounds.
[00:06:10] Nasser has also worked to bring revitalization and community development to underserved areas of maturity while supporting entrepreneurs of all backgrounds.
[00:06:20] He believes any person can be successful with the right opportunity.
[00:06:25] Leading the American Arab Chamber of Commerce, he built a chamber into the most prominent American Arab business organization in the United States.
[00:06:34] And he has been instrumental in supporting the growth of one of the most prosperous and affluent communities in the nation.
[00:06:42] Ladies and gentlemen, it is my honor and distinct privilege to have as a guest on this podcast Nasser Badan.
[00:06:55] Nasser Badan. How you doing, sir? Are you doing good?
[00:07:10] I'm doing good, considering all that.
[00:07:16] Well, you know, you're out there running, man. So, you know, you're going to have good days and bad days, but mostly it's going to be good days just for my experience of doing that.
[00:07:30] And from what I understand, go ahead.
[00:07:33] The running is great. I mean, getting out there and meeting people and talking to people and learning, you know, about their issues and getting their thoughts is amazing.
[00:07:45] That part of the politics is fun. It's the money part that I hate.
[00:07:51] Amen, brother. We've been there, done that on that deal. God, I have some stories to tell you. Anyway, look, let's get into the interview.
[00:08:02] What I normally do is that I pick a quote, either something that somebody has the person that said something they've written or saw a quote that relates to what we're going to talk about.
[00:08:15] So your quote is, I believe that my America is your America. What does that quote mean to you?
[00:08:27] I believe that my America is your America. Well, as an immigrant, you know, I have a very unique perspective on America.
[00:08:39] You know, America's a country that, you know, my parents immigrated to in 1969 when I was four years old.
[00:08:47] It's a country that gave my dad the opportunity to raise his children and his family in the middle class environment gave him a good, you know, he was a shoemaker in Lebanon. He was a cobbler.
[00:09:01] My America gave me an opportunity to go to college, to become a successful businessman and to see one of the highest offices in the land.
[00:09:17] So my America is, you know, like your America means to me, America is a land of opportunity, of the home, of the ability for people that choose to succeed, to try and succeed.
[00:09:36] And it's not only a company, a country that allows you to succeed, but it allows you to fail without punishing you and failure.
[00:09:44] So I think my America is an America that is about opportunity and hope.
[00:09:52] So was that your motivation being the first generation Lebanese American businessman to want to serve in public office?
[00:10:01] Because I did not like the, you know, the divisiveness of Washington.
[00:10:08] I didn't like how these politicians are basically pissing away our future as a nation, how special interest corporate interests, the pro-Israeli lobby dominate Washington at the expense of the average American.
[00:10:26] And you know, the deficit spending, the endless wars, the supporting military throwing over throwing countries overseas, governments overseas.
[00:10:38] The hypocrisy in our foreign policy and the hypocrisy, you know, in our what we're doing here as a nation, you know, we are losing the global war.
[00:10:51] We are losing our global position because we are not competing properly.
[00:10:57] Our infrastructure is failing, you know, we're a country that, we're the richest country in the world yet we cannot provide affordable healthcare for all our citizens.
[00:11:06] We're the richest country in the world yet our public education is starting to fall behind the rest of the world.
[00:11:12] Our infrastructure is in the chamber.
[00:11:15] And yet we spend trillions of dollars on endless wars and money just to make the military industrial complex richer.
[00:11:24] So we need to reset our priorities.
[00:11:28] In November, you asked President Biden to step aside and let someone else vibe for the democratic nomination.
[00:11:36] Since then, he survived the uncommitted protest vote in Michigan and basically locked up the nomination after Super Tuesday.
[00:11:46] One, how do you feel about Biden now?
[00:11:50] And two, what specifically would you like to see done concerning the Israeli Hamas conflict?
[00:11:59] I still believe that if Donald, if Joe Biden is the nominee come this November, Donald Trump will be the next president of the United States.
[00:12:10] And you say that he overcame the uncommitted? No, he didn't over come the uncommitted.
[00:12:16] The uncommitted was basically a signal to Joe Biden that changed force, do something to end the suffering and the killing of the genocide that's happening in Gaza.
[00:12:29] And not only is he not doing anything, he's actively engaged in funding it and providing the weapons that the Israelis are using to kill the Palestinians.
[00:12:40] So to me, Joe Biden is a lost cause because yesterday I listened to his state of the union and he didn't call for a permanent ceasefire.
[00:12:52] He, you know, first he wants the air drop of food into Gaza.
[00:12:59] Now he wants to create a naval corridor when all he has to do is call up Benjamin Netanyahu and say open the damn border.
[00:13:08] Or we're not giving you any more money or any more weapons and stop killing innocent civilians.
[00:13:15] It's that simple of a conversation, but he refuses to do it.
[00:13:21] And I cannot support a president that is actively engaged in genocide.
[00:13:28] So follow up on that statement.
[00:13:34] I had the privilege, I guess of talking to on this podcast, the General Counsel for the southeast region here in the United States representing Israel.
[00:13:49] Their position is if you're going to ask for a ceasefire, don't just ask Israel as Hamas too.
[00:14:00] And they're stating that, you know, Hamas was by their act on October 7th violated the ceasefire that was in existence.
[00:14:13] As somebody who wants to be in the United States Senate, you say that it's a simple ask.
[00:14:22] But if that country that you're asking doesn't value that position, you say, okay, we're going to take away your money, we're going to take away your weapons or not give you any more.
[00:14:34] And they still refuse to do that. What is the next step then?
[00:14:41] Well, if it wasn't for America's support, Israel can sustain the war.
[00:14:48] We have sent them hundreds of millions of dollars of ammunition to continue to kill Palestinians.
[00:14:54] And you know, people, you know, and the thing that I kind of, you know, disagree with is that this thing started on October 7th.
[00:15:05] The Israeli-Palestinian conflict did not start on October 7th.
[00:15:09] It's like watching, starting a TV series in the sixth season when you say it started on October 7th.
[00:15:18] Prior to October 7th, if you remember Israel rated the El Aksal Mosque.
[00:15:25] Prior to October 7th, they killed over 200 Palestinians in the West Bank, not in Gaza.
[00:15:32] Prior to October 7th, Israel continued to build settlements, confiscate Palestinian land, continued to seize Palestinian homes.
[00:15:47] Prior to October, from Oslo to October 7th, Israel has done everything possible to deny the Palestinians their legitimate aspirations for a state.
[00:16:02] So the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, and they have a right to resist.
[00:16:09] And people say, well, Israel has a right to defend itself. No, Israel does not have a right to defend itself.
[00:16:15] Under international law, Israel is the occupier, Israel is the aggressor, Israel is the apartheid state.
[00:16:23] So the Palestinians are the ones that have a right to defend themselves.
[00:16:28] And to resist the brutal occupation that Israel has been imposing on them for decades.
[00:16:35] So, you know, and the council general says that you have to ask Hamas for a ceasefire.
[00:16:42] Well, Hamas is ready for a ceasefire. It's the Israeli. They've been ready for a ceasefire.
[00:16:49] You know, what happened on October 7th is tragic, but it doesn't justify the genocide that's happening today.
[00:16:58] So if you are fortunate enough to get elected to the US Senate, would you be willing to risk a censure like Congresswoman to leave did in order to continue to push for
[00:17:18] a permanent ceasefire?
[00:17:22] I would say it would be a badge of honor to be censored for pushing for a permanent not only would I push for a permanent ceasefire, but I would push to end the pro-Israel lobby and apex total domination of the congressional process.
[00:17:39] And I would push for a just piece between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
[00:17:45] Is that including a two-state solution?
[00:17:49] Well, I think the Israelis are pretty much killed at two-state solution.
[00:17:54] So the only solution is a one state where Jews, Muslims and Christians can live equally.
[00:18:03] You cannot have a one state like you have today where the Zionists think they're superior to the natural inhabitants of Palestine.
[00:18:16] All right, so let's focus in on domestic stuff.
[00:18:23] What is the most important issue facing the American people and what policies will you enact or support to address it?
[00:18:33] I think the most important thing is the corruption in our electoral process.
[00:18:40] Our elections are the most corrupt in the world.
[00:18:45] My first act as a senator would be to introduce legislation to eliminate money out of the political process because we have the most corrupt political process in the world.
[00:19:01] The only difference between us and a third world country is that we call our corruption campaign finance laws.
[00:19:09] We have to level the playing field.
[00:19:13] We have to end big money's influence, the billionaires buying politicians and corporate interests buying politicians.
[00:19:24] And we have to make sure that we elect people that represent the interests of all the American people, not just the special interest big pharma wall street.
[00:19:36] And we have to focus on mainstream and the only way to do that is to remove the money out of politics.
[00:19:43] So what's your response when somebody challenges that bill and say, well, the Supreme Court said in Citizens United that our campaign finance is free speech.
[00:20:01] Are you trying to deny me my right to freedom, my first amendment right by eliminating donations?
[00:20:13] Okay. Let me ask you this. How do I compete with a billionaire that can invest $100 million in the campaign?
[00:20:23] If I go to a politician and say, I'm giving you $100 million in soft money and a soft money bag.
[00:20:32] Who am I going to answer to as a politician? Am I going to answer to you the citizen who's in my district or am I going to answer to the billionaire that just spent $100 million to get me elected?
[00:20:49] So there's free, I understand free speech, but we also have to have a fair speech.
[00:20:59] What is the challenge for a person of color to run statewide as a Democrat in Michigan?
[00:21:08] Oh, I mean, I'm not only a person of color. I'm an immigrant. I'm an Arab, I'm Muslim. I got three strikes against me.
[00:21:19] But you got a great smile and a great personality. So that should overcome all that stuff right?
[00:21:25] Hopefully we'll see.
[00:21:29] I believe in the fairness of the American people and the people of Michigan, I understand.
[00:21:39] I believe that if I go to the people and state my case and argue my case, that if they believe in me, they will support me regardless of who I am or what I am.
[00:21:53] But you know, I think people are sick and tired of politicians who tell people what they think they want them to hear.
[00:22:00] They want the genuine article, they want people to be truthful with them, even if they don't disagree with them.
[00:22:06] Just be honest. And that's something that politicians rarely do these days.
[00:22:12] There's a few, but the majority of them, you know, they don't care about people think because they know that the politics, you know, their election is not based on what the people think, but what the party thinks or what special interesting or whose financing are things.
[00:22:31] So my next question is based on something, a decision I had to make personally.
[00:22:37] So I had to make a conscious decision when I was active in the community and causing good trouble as John Lewis would say.
[00:22:54] And I think that was the reason why I was active in order to be elected.
[00:22:58] Because I knew that once I got elected, a lot of my actions would be dictated by the rules and the quorum that's set within that body.
[00:23:10] So why would somebody like you who has been really, really active in the Detroit area?
[00:23:20] And that freedom to be confined by the rules of the United States Senate.
[00:23:27] I don't think I would be willing to do that. I mean, I'm going in there.
[00:23:31] I understand the decorum, but I understand that I'm not looking for a political office.
[00:23:38] I'm looking to make a political difference.
[00:23:42] I'm not looking to be elected to be a senator because I really don't want to be a politician.
[00:23:47] But as Plato said, the price of indifference by good men and public affair is to be ruled by evil men.
[00:23:55] So if people like me who love this country, who have benefited from this country, who want to work to make sure that my children inherit a country that they love as much as I do.
[00:24:11] And when it gives them the opportunity that I had, I felt that it was time because the politicians that we have are not addressing the issues and not trying to solve the problems.
[00:24:23] You know, how come a country like us? We don't have basic universal healthcare.
[00:24:28] We don't have the best public education in the world.
[00:24:31] We don't have the best infrastructure in the world.
[00:24:35] We're falling behind every thing that you can, the rest of the world is moving forward and we're standing still or falling behind.
[00:24:50] So on that point, why do you think that is? What do you think is the true motivating factor?
[00:24:58] I think you kind of alluded to it a little bit when you were talking about the influence of money and politics.
[00:25:06] But what do you think is the real contributor? Why we have...
[00:25:13] We talk a good game, right? But on the reality and in national scale, we are not educating our kids at the level of other countries, especially other countries that are comparable.
[00:25:29] We do not have the safeguards for healthcare that other countries that are comparable to us to have.
[00:25:40] And we incarcerate more people than other countries that are comparable to us.
[00:25:46] So what do you think is the motivating factor? And as a US senator, what do you think you can do to stop that?
[00:25:54] You can decide introducing legislation to deal with campaign finance reform or to get rid of finances altogether. I think is what you said.
[00:26:06] Let's take a moment at a time. You have our endless force. We spent trillions of dollars on a war in Iraq, which was started on a false assumption.
[00:26:20] We have killed over a million Iraqis, thousands of American lives, trillions of dollars and destroyed a country.
[00:26:29] Then we went into Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to remove Al Qaeda.
[00:26:34] We spent trillions of dollars there and we came back into Taliban not only got their country back but they got American infrastructure in that place.
[00:26:47] We spent hundreds of billions of dollars funding the war between Ukraine and Russia.
[00:26:56] We spent billions of dollars on war sending it to Israel to continue to oppress the Palestinian people.
[00:27:07] And we taken that money and invested it in America. Where would America be today?
[00:27:16] First of all, you got to remove. And the other thing is our foreign policy.
[00:27:20] You know, we are the bully on the block. We are the most despised nation in the world right now.
[00:27:28] Some were actively engaged in a genocide. Two, we don't have diplomacy anymore. Our diplomacy is done by the Pentagon through military intervention, through sanctions, through freezing other government assets and then through military invasion.
[00:27:45] We're overthrowing the country. We have, in the last 30 years, been involved with 200 military compels.
[00:27:51] And we're the only country in the world currently that is going around the world, blowing up people on the so-called war on terrorism.
[00:28:02] So we have to end the endless wars. We have to rein in the military industrial complex.
[00:28:08] We have to rein in the pro-Israeli lobby. We have to rein in big pharma and we have to rein in Wall Street.
[00:28:16] And if we can do that, then we can take those, the money that we're spending and wasting and reinvest it in education and healthcare and infrastructure and clean environment.
[00:28:33] It's not that difficult. And we can't stop and we can't continue to spend more than we take in as a nation.
[00:28:44] We're $33 trillion in debt. If you add in social security and the Medicare, we're over $120 trillion in debt.
[00:28:57] So we got to stop spending like drunken sailors in a warehouse.
[00:29:05] Now that's the business man coming out in you now.
[00:29:11] I mean, I have to, I can't spend like the government spends.
[00:29:16] I mean, if I spent like the government spend, I'd be bankrupt within a short period of time. No business man. I understand what it takes.
[00:29:25] I have revenue coming in. I have to make sure my expenses are equal or less than my revenue.
[00:29:35] So, would you be in favor of a balanced budget amendment or pushing the balanced budget amendment to be ratified?
[00:29:49] Because the federal government is the only, the US Congress is the only legislative body that is not bound to balance the budget.
[00:29:58] In Michigan, where you are in Mississippi, where I was in the legislature, Georgia, all the other states and including DC, that city council has to have a balanced budget.
[00:30:11] And the United States Congress. So would you be in favor of supporting a balanced budget amendment to kind of create more discipline in Washington?
[00:30:23] I would and I would also work on revamping how taxes are collected. We're the most tax nation in the world when you look at all the ways they get you, you know, from them.
[00:30:38] You know, they tax you on the money you make then they tax you on the products you buy. They tax you on the house you live and they tax you on the car you drive.
[00:30:47] They tax you on the gas you buy. They tax you and they and then they tax you when you die.
[00:30:56] So we need a fair and simple tax code that everybody pays their fair share just because I'm a billionaire or a millionaire and I can hire consultants and tax accounts and CPAs to make sure that I don't pay tax,
[00:31:13] get the factory worker who gets his paycheck every two weeks, his taxes automatically taken out. That's not fair.
[00:31:23] Yeah, I think and that you mentioned the president of state union dress he said that on average,
[00:31:32] the richest people in America pay about 8% of their income if they pay anything.
[00:31:38] Whereas the average citizen pays about 36% of their income.
[00:31:44] So you would be in favor of a tax code reform if you got in there.
[00:31:50] Definitely, and the other thing is social security reform because if you remember if you know that you're you know what you pay on social security when you pay into social security as cat
[00:32:01] at a certain income level.
[00:32:05] So you know we have to remove that cat and make sure that people are paying their fair share into social security.
[00:32:15] And then in terms of healthcare, basically if you know we pay for drugs what other countries pay for drugs, we would say hundreds of billions of dollars in our healthcare costs.
[00:32:29] But because of big farmers influence on our corrupt congress, you know they don't allow them to negotiate something that costs a thousand dollars here could cost a hundred dollars in Canada or in Europe for a drug.
[00:32:46] And why is it in this country the largest segment of bankruptcies is because of medical bills right isn't that obnoxious?
[00:32:57] Yeah, that's that's terrifying.
[00:33:00] That's terrifying and all of us are one health tragedy away from being broke.
[00:33:08] Exactly.
[00:33:09] Yeah. And so our health crisis from being broke.
[00:33:13] Do you think saving democracy is enough motivation to get people to the polls this election?
[00:33:22] You know I think that people have so much empathy right now.
[00:33:27] I don't know what's going to take them to I mean you got to get the people engaged.
[00:33:32] You know that these politicians have stacked you know have ripped the game in their favor against that of the public.
[00:33:42] You know the two party system isn't working. I think they're both corrupt. They're two sides of the same point.
[00:33:50] You know each one works to make sure they work together to make sure that you know they continue to rig the system in their favor.
[00:33:58] And I think that we need a Titanic shift in American politics and we need the average American to get involved again and not be so complacent in the political process.
[00:34:11] So you've got you've got a hurdle in your particular race because you're running against one and incumbent US Congressperson.
[00:34:26] Yeah, see the incumbent.
[00:34:29] And and a basically a Hollywood celebrity running.
[00:34:37] And the incumbent Congresswoman has more money cash in hand that you and this celebrity have raised.
[00:34:49] You know, you know, because she's the establishment and a tax favor. She's the true she's anointed one.
[00:34:57] So you know I told my dad when I when I ventured out to run for US Senate.
[00:35:04] You know he was talking to he was concerned about the money thing and I told him if I had enough money to put gas in my car where I could travel to state of Mississippi, I'll be okay.
[00:35:17] Are you a you pretty much have that same philosophy?
[00:35:21] Well my philosophy is I refuse to take any corporate or pack money.
[00:35:26] I mean, I'm funding it with small dollars if I win.
[00:35:32] You know, if people like that this way I'm not beholden to anybody except the people who elected me.
[00:35:39] I am trying, you know, to get people to understand that if you out organize organization will be money any day of the week.
[00:35:51] So we're just trying to create a grassroots movement and make a statement that you don't need money to win.
[00:35:57] But it's a tough hill to climb.
[00:36:02] And we're going to give it a shot and the nice thing about my candidacy is, you know I'm in position where I say whatever I want.
[00:36:12] And you know not be beholden or afraid of anybody because I've been the an area in the might fields of Democratic party and say, you know you got to dump Biden because he's not going to win.
[00:36:25] And they keep, you know and he made a promise that he is only going to be in one terms president.
[00:36:32] And you know and they are going we are going to end up with Donald Trump as the next president if the Democrats do not find a new nominee.
[00:36:46] So I've got to ask you this question before we get out of here.
[00:36:50] As somebody who is a first generation American and you have basically proven that, you know your family is a success story here.
[00:37:06] What, what did you, what do you say to people in Michigan who have this opinion about immigrants and a negative opinion about immigrants.
[00:37:19] And that's why they want to close the borders and all that kind of stuff.
[00:37:23] What, what can you tell them to convince them to support you one and then two.
[00:37:33] How does that experience personally for you impact the policies that you're going to support or even enact once you get into your son?
[00:37:44] Well, our immigration process is deeply flawed. It needs to be fixed.
[00:37:50] We need to create you know we need to make sure one that the dreamers in this country have a fast track to citizenship.
[00:38:00] We have to make sure that you know people coming across the border seeking asylum are better quickly.
[00:38:08] We need to make sure that, you know people choosing to go through the legal means of immigration are reported that right in an expeditious manner.
[00:38:20] We're all immigrants. The only people that aren't immigrants in this country are native Americans.
[00:38:27] You know, we came here because we chose chose to your ancestors came here probably because they were forced to but we're all immigrants and what makes America great is why it's not a stagnant country.
[00:38:42] It's always flourishing and always growing is we've been able to attract some of the best minds in the world as well as some of the poorest people in the world.
[00:38:54] And they have came here came to the United States and been able to achieve the American dream.
[00:39:00] America gave them hope America gave them opportunity so we shouldn't close that because we need immigrants.
[00:39:07] We need immigrants to grow to prosper if you look at the high tech industry many of the leaders in that industry are immigrants.
[00:39:17] So immigrants come to this country they create jobs they create opportunity they you know what would we do without a Mexican immigrants and in our construction and our agriculture.
[00:39:31] We you know so for those people who say we don't want any more immigrants I think they're shortsighted and you know there's gotta be some prejudicial feelings behind that but we're all immigrants.
[00:39:46] And we need a sound immigration policy.
[00:39:51] All right so go ahead racist you know we've allowed 150,000 Ukrainians to come to this country and we've given them work visas or green cards yet we have hundreds of thousands of brown people at the border southern border that we're refusing to allow.
[00:40:10] All right sir so we've come to that part of the program where it's time to make that pitch.
[00:40:15] So how can people get involved with the campaign how can people reach out to you go ahead and do your thing.
[00:40:21] Well my name is Nasser Bayduna i'm running for Michigan's U. Open U. Sennetcy you can reach out to us at my website at nasser4mi.com which is n-a-s-e-r-f-o-r-m-i.com.
[00:40:36] And we'd love to have anybody that wants to join the campaign and be part of this historic effort to truly try and take our government back and give it to the people.
[00:40:49] What may do?
[00:40:52] Well Nasser first of all let me commend you for jumping out there and running as somebody that is done it.
[00:41:02] I know it's not an easy decision to do.
[00:41:07] You know but I'm glad that you've made that decision to do it and I wish you much success in that.
[00:41:14] But I also want to thank you for what you've done.
[00:41:18] I think the people in the trade area are really really honored to have you
[00:41:26] standing up for issues that are important for the people in the trade area.
[00:41:33] Because as a business person you could be like your contemporaries and just kind of silently go along or disagree but just kind of stay out of it and just make your money.
[00:41:44] But you've kind of put your neck out there in the past so I want to thank you for your activism.
[00:41:51] And finally I want to thank you for coming on this podcast.
[00:41:54] This has been enjoyable and I appreciate your candor and I wish you much success.
[00:42:02] Appreciate it. Thank you Eric.
[00:42:04] Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak to your listeners and I hope that you know there's a good conversation and people will get engaged.
[00:42:14] And I'm not with me, with somebody else. You got to get engaged.
[00:42:18] And you know regardless of the outcome you're welcome to come back anytime.
[00:42:23] Thank you. Thank you Eric.
[00:42:25] All right guys we're going to catch all on the other side.
[00:42:44] All right and we are back. And so now my final guest.
[00:42:56] And his name is John Echohawk. Echo Hawk.
[00:43:03] And he's a very humble guy for what he has done in the history of this nation.
[00:43:13] His his intro will basically highlight that point about his humbleness.
[00:43:20] John Echohawk is a citizen of the Pawnee Nation of Oklahoma and attorney and has been employed with the Native American rights fund since 1970.
[00:43:32] When he graduated from the University of New Mexico School of Law.
[00:43:37] And I will add that in 2023 he was awarded the American Bar Association's Thurgood Marshall Award for his service and his advocacy.
[00:43:50] So ladies and gentlemen it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast John Echohawk.
[00:44:01] John Echohawk. The man to myth the legend. How you doing sir?
[00:44:21] You're just fine Eric. Glad to be with you today.
[00:44:25] Well I'm honored to have you and you know you're you're a very historical figure in this nation.
[00:44:36] And so when you accepted my invitation I was really really humbled by that.
[00:44:41] So thank you for coming on.
[00:44:45] What I normally like to do with guests is that at the beginning of the interview I throw out a quote and it may be something that they said something that they might have written or something relating to the topic of the work that they do.
[00:45:01] So your quote is all tribal leaders know part of their job is constantly having to educate people about who we are.
[00:45:12] And we are not mascots. We are sovereign nations. What does that quote mean to you?
[00:45:19] Well it means that we've always got to be busy educating the public about Native Americans because that's one of the biggest problems we face.
[00:45:33] Most people don't know anything about us are legal and political status. Some of them don't even realize that we're still here.
[00:45:42] So it's a continual process of educating people about us. It's one of the priorities set by our board of directors here at the Native American Rights Fund because they know this is one of the biggest problems we face.
[00:45:58] So I take advantage of every opportunity to educate people about the Native American law and policy.
[00:46:05] And that's why I'm pleased to join you here today, Eric.
[00:46:09] Well so you said some people don't know you're here.
[00:46:14] Native Americans are about 3.7 million strong, right?
[00:46:20] And they represent 574 nations?
[00:46:29] Okay.
[00:46:31] So you're of the Pawnee Nation. So are you based in Oklahoma or from Oklahoma?
[00:46:40] No, that's my tribe but I was born and raised in New Mexico.
[00:46:49] And I'm currently living in Boulder, Colorado. I've been here 53 years as executive director of the Native American Rights Fund.
[00:47:00] The National Indian Legal Defense Fund providing the rights and representation to our tribes of individuals and organizations across the country are an important Indian law issues.
[00:47:14] What motivated you to become a lawyer and start the Native American Rights Fund?
[00:47:21] Well I did good in high school and I got interested in being a lawyer because I had several of my teachers suggest that that's what I want to think about doing.
[00:47:39] When I went to college, I did it to get ready to go to law school.
[00:47:46] I majored in government and economics and then applied to law school at the University of New Mexico over there where I graduated.
[00:47:57] The law school took my application and they gave me a scholarship.
[00:48:04] They said they had just been notified by the Office of Economic Opportunity, the Ward, Aubrey in Washington D.C.
[00:48:13] That they were going to be administering a scholarship program for Native Americans to go to law school because the powers that being Washington D.C.
[00:48:22] had decided one of the best things they could do to help Indians get out of poverty is to get some professionals as we had just a handful of lawyers and doctors who were Native Americans across the country.
[00:48:35] So they started providing scholarships for some of us to go to law school so I got one of those scholarships.
[00:48:41] And to the credit of that law faculty there at the University of New Mexico Law School, they put together one of the first courses I ever taught on federal Indian law.
[00:48:51] And I didn't know much about that at all. The other Native American students didn't either but basically we realized that our tribes had substantial rights under the Constitution and laws of this country.
[00:49:05] They were going unaddressed in this country and it was primarily because we didn't have any lawyers because we were the force to the poor and lawyers got money.
[00:49:16] So we took notice of what was happening at that time, the late 60s, that civil rights movement and black people were asserting their rights to be free of discrimination equal rights under the Constitution and laws of this country.
[00:49:33] They were poor too but they had lawyers through the end double ACP legal defense fund, a national nonprofit organization raising money, hiring lawyers and making them available to black people to assert their civil rights.
[00:49:48] So we decided that's what we needed to do when we graduated was to start a national Indian legal defense fund for Native Americans. And that's exactly what we did and that's what this Native American rights fund is.
[00:50:01] And we've been at it now 54 years, that's really changed everything for our people as we've been able to assert our rights.
[00:50:09] We recently received the American Bar Association's third-grad Marshall Award for your 54 years of legal advocacy on behalf of Native Americans.
[00:50:20] Why does that award have significance to you?
[00:50:26] Well again, it's the recognition that Native American law and policy receives through an award-like test of the ceremony that it was given at because again we're educating people about tribes and the American Bar Association.
[00:50:54] The largest organization of lawyers in the country to be recognized by them and to be able to have them understand what's happened to our Native American people through the work of the Native American rights fund was really quite amazing.
[00:51:14] Of course, third-grad Marshall, he was the founder of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. And as I said, that's exactly who we marled ourselves after at the Native American rights fund.
[00:51:29] So it was really very well received by our Native American community and again an opportunity to educate people about all the progress that we've made in these 54 years of existence at the Native American rights fund.
[00:51:49] The privilege of interviewing a gentleman named Keith Stroke and Keith started normal, which is the oldest organization dealing with the legalization of marijuana.
[00:52:01] About the same time that you started the Native American rights fund.
[00:52:06] So I asked him this question and I ask you the same one.
[00:52:10] What is your motivation every day? You've been doing this for over a half a century. What keeps you personally going to continue this work?
[00:52:24] Well, it's helping our Native American people in over the years that we've been successful in different cases and issues and projects.
[00:52:37] For Native Americans, I draw great satisfaction from those accomplishments and see what a difference it makes out on the ground.
[00:52:48] I've been out on the ground in Indian country a lot. I've been many, many places with many, many of our people, our leaders.
[00:52:56] It's just really amazing to me that we're able to do that and to help them achieve better social and economic conditions and better lives.
[00:53:12] I said, that's what motivates me. I know that we just keep working away and we keep wedding cases and issues and projects and that's what keeps me going. I know it makes a difference.
[00:53:27] Let me ask you a personal question. This is more for my edification than anything else.
[00:53:34] I use the term Native American once I became more politically active.
[00:53:43] I noticed and I tried to steal away from the term Indian. I notice you and other leaders will use the term Indian in tribal and all those other things.
[00:53:59] People were chastising me if I used those terms.
[00:54:06] They were right in chastising me and using those terms based on what I know.
[00:54:15] Is there a preference? Does it really matter one way or the other?
[00:54:21] I don't really think it matters one way or another the way we address it. It's basically up to the individual and everything else.
[00:54:33] They decide to call us that's fine whether it's American Indian Native American indigenous whatever it is. That's fine. Everybody knows what it means.
[00:54:46] There's really no preference for any of that. We call ourselves the Native American rights fund because we wanted to start using that term and to know you why everyone with that term contrasted with the American Indian.
[00:55:02] That's really kind of cut on over the years and that's why a lot of people use that term but not everybody uses it. That's fine.
[00:55:17] Explain the concept of Native American self-determination and what has been the biggest hurdle in maintaining it.
[00:55:26] In doing so, kind of explain because one of the big triumphs was the Native American Grace Protection and Repatriation Act.
[00:55:38] That's considered a big step toward self-determination. Kind of talk about the concept, how that particular law helps that and what has been your biggest challenge in trying to maintain self-determination.
[00:55:57] Well, it's really all about tribal existence. Our Native American tribes are recognized in the United States Constitution. Congress has authority to negotiate treaties with all of the various governments, the foreign governments, the states and the Indian tribes.
[00:56:19] Congress proceeded to start negotiating treaties with tribes and that practice found it's one of the Constitution because ever since 1492, the first contact in European nations started dealing with Native American nations.
[00:56:36] They realized that we were sovereign nations and many of these conflicts were dealt with by treaties. So when the Constitution was put together, that practice of treaties with tribes and without putting them in the Constitution had been carried out by Congress with some changes from time to time.
[00:56:59] Congress from time to time has decided, well, that's enough for Indians. Let's assimilate them, force a simulation or let's terminate the tribe. So over the years we've had some of those congressional policies come in and impact these treaties but the latest time that happened was during the 50s and 60s.
[00:57:25] But as you know, the Native American movement started in the 60s, it changed everything. President Nixon in 1970 pronounced this termination, assimilation policy over and started a new self-determination policy recognizing the sovereignty of the tribes under the treaties.
[00:57:48] And that's been federal Indian policy ever since then, you know, 54 years and we've been able to exercise our rights in our culture and one of those things that we've done in terms of exercising our cultures, realizing what happened in past history where a lot of our graves on our reservations were basically done up.
[00:58:18] By different people and the remains of our people in their burial goods were taken to museums. And that's one of the issues we started addressing once we got this self-determination policy in place in the Native American rights fund became available to represent our tribes and these kinds of issues and educate museums about us.
[00:58:42] We were able to do that successfully, case by case and it finally became so prevalent to have that recognition of our rights to get our ancestors in their burial goods return to our tribes that Congress asked a national law the Native American graves protection and Rebeige Reation Act.
[00:59:08] And we were lucky enough to be working on that for a number of tribes when Congress passed that and it was just a tremendous accomplishment that's still in the process of being implemented across the country and really now across the world.
[00:59:25] That's caught on around the world which is the overseas as well getting our ancestors returned to us.
[00:59:36] So on this podcast, on my blog and stuff I've been outspoken about the Bureau of Indian Affairs being in a department of interior.
[00:59:49] One, I believe it should be called the Bureau of Affairs for Native American Nations and two. It should be in the Department of State.
[00:59:59] And here's my rationale behind it. The Department of Interior basically is our real estate department in the federal government and I just think that to me,
[01:00:21] that doesn't bold well that the Bureau of Indian Affairs that 3.7 million people are in an agency that is basically over federal property. I think that sends a terrible message, right?
[01:00:38] And since you are nations, 574 nations within the boundaries of the United States and you've correctly pointed out that we have in the Constitution the authority to negotiate with those nations.
[01:00:59] We negotiate whatever other country in the world through the Department of State.
[01:01:06] That's my argument. Am I off of it as somebody has been doing it for 54 years? Am I off base in expressing that opinion and pushing that idea?
[01:01:20] Well, I haven't heard any tribal leaders advocating for anything like that. I think it may well be because of the status of our land ownership, our over 50 million acres of land that the tribes still own across the country.
[01:01:40] Under the treaties and the Constitution, everything our lands are held in trust for us by the federal government.
[01:01:50] They hold the legal title and we hold the beneficial title. They are trustee and they're supposed to help us protect our land.
[01:02:00] And so in that sense, it's probably good that we're there with the Interior Department that administers all kinds of lands for the federal government and helps us administer our land as a trustee.
[01:02:14] And we count on that trust relationship of the federal government to help protect our lands and it's a process that's very similar with these days.
[01:02:32] It's one of my concerns. I think you want to keep the dire enemy tribal leaders advocating for any change along this life.
[01:02:40] That's a polite way of saying yes, but okay. I'll do with that. Is your organization involved in getting Congress to honor the treaty with the Cherokee Nation by having a delegate for that nation seated in the House of Representatives?
[01:03:01] No, we don't represent everybody on everything. We just represent those tribes who need legal representation with a film have other lawyers and the Cherokee Nation had other lawyers helping them with that issue. So we're not involved in it.
[01:03:17] How do you how do you feel about that as the Native American leader in this country? Do you feel that even though you're not specifically involved, do you feel that Congress should honor that treaty?
[01:03:35] Yes, we're very much supportive of treaties being recognized and enforced across the country whatever they may say. And the Cherokee have that in their treaty then it should be recognized by the Congress yet.
[01:03:56] What is the current legal challenge that your organization or Native Americans as a whole are facing? What's the biggest case that you're looking at right now?
[01:04:11] Well, generally speaking, we tend to focus on what's happening in the United States Supreme Court because that's ultimately the court that is the final word on each federal Indian law issues.
[01:04:31] Since we began in the 1970s, we did pretty well the tribes did in terms of the cases before the US Supreme Court during the 70s and 80s.
[01:04:46] One, most of those cases and there was an inordinate number of those cases before the court since those issues had not gone addressed for so many years.
[01:04:56] But beginning of the 90s is the makeup of the Supreme Court change than the tribes were having a more difficult time winning cases there because the more conservative justices were not really supportive and understanding the federal Indian law.
[01:05:13] As we thought they should be and got so bad that in 2001 there was forward Indian law cases that the tribal leaders felt we should have won based on the federal Indian law.
[01:05:26] We knew what the Supreme Court ruled against us and all four of those cases.
[01:05:30] So the tribal leaders called a national meeting to address a national crisis in Indian country called the United States Supreme Court.
[01:05:40] And they made and talked about what they should do about this bad Supreme Court in terms of their record on these federal Indian law issues.
[01:05:49] And we had just depended for so long, like I said about 30 years on litigation and winning in the Supreme Court and all of a sudden we realized we couldn't really take any cases up there anymore because they were going to rule against this no matter what.
[01:06:09] So they put together what they call the tribal Supreme Court project and ask us to participate with them in organizing all of the tribes and the tribal attorneys to work with the Indian law professors and Supreme Court experts on doing legal briefs and arguments in any cases that might get the court.
[01:06:32] I could say they didn't want any cases to go with them. We don't always control that when the cases did go, they wanted to try to make arguments in the briefs about these issues in a way where these more conservative justices would understand federal Indian law.
[01:06:50] So we've been working on that case or in that project now since 2001 and over the years, we've had mixed results depending on the makeup of the court.
[01:07:00] And right now with the current makeup of the court, we have done fairly well, fairly well as we've got some justices who understand federal Indian law and policy better than previous justices did.
[01:07:16] So that continues to be our main focus at the Native American right, right? And really the main focus of tribal leaders.
[01:07:24] Yeah and that kind of led into my next question because there is somebody on the court that y'all endorsed to be appointed.
[01:07:38] And I say he's been an ally.
[01:07:44] I don't know if that's an accurate term or not, but kind of talk about who that justice is and why the Native American community supported his nomination.
[01:08:00] Okay. Well, one of the things the tribal leaders did when they put together this tribal Supreme Court project in 2001 was also to put together what they call the traditional selection project.
[01:08:12] They really probed into this process about how these judges end up as justice on the US Supreme Court and of course it's a legal process where the president nominates someone.
[01:08:26] And then the Senate considers that nomination and decides whether to confirm them as a justice or reject him.
[01:08:34] And the tribal leaders decided what they should do is recommend judges to the president of the United States who knew something about federal Indian law and hope that he could nominate someone there.
[01:08:47] So every time the president nominated someone, the tribal leaders always had us research their record on federal Indian law and let the tribal leaders know about that.
[01:08:58] And then the tribal leaders would let the president know whether they supported that nomination or not.
[01:09:04] And for most of the time they don't support the nomination because the justice has nominated doesn't really know anything about federal Indian law.
[01:09:13] But then there was this one nominee, Neil horseage who was nominated by the president and not the tribal leaders had us research his record.
[01:09:23] He had a real good record on his federal Indian law issues. So the tribal leaders supported him and the US Senate confirmed him and he's now justice nail corsage.
[01:09:35] And he's with us just about every time on our cases because he knows about tribes, he knows about federal Indian law and that's just really very helpful to him.
[01:09:45] Yeah, I don't I can't remember which particular case but it was one case where he wrote the dissent that you know that represented the opinion or the well you know that took the position of the nation.
[01:10:04] And that's the position of the Native American community.
[01:10:08] Yes, that's what he does. He doesn't always end up with the majority and when he doesn't see always writes a dissenting opinion saying what federal Indian law is ought to be.
[01:10:22] All right, so talk about the recent case concerning the Indian child welfare act. That was one of the few cases that really kind of hit the national news.
[01:10:37] Talk about the significance of that case.
[01:10:42] Well, yeah, this is the case of Brackene against Paul and last year involved the challenges to the constitutionality of the Indian child welfare act in Congress passed in 1978 to address major problem that we were having across Indian country.
[01:11:03] And that is the state and welfare agencies coming into the reservations and taking our Indian kids away from us as abused and neglected and placing them in foster care and putting them up for adoption of things.
[01:11:20] And we were losing a lot of our kids through that process and Congress recognized that that in that past this Indian child welfare act in 1978 that basically required a preference for placement of any kids in the adoption system to be placed with Indian families.
[01:11:44] So that preference was challenged in this case and it was argued that Congress did not have that authority to pass this Indian child welfare act law and, you know, fortunately for us the US Supreme Court rules 72 that Congress since it has authority to deal with tribes at the authority to pass the Indian child welfare act to help the tribes protect their Indian children.
[01:12:14] So it was a great big before.
[01:12:17] Yeah, I'm a big sports fan so one that I remember when I was young there was a poster and I don't know which organization put it out there.
[01:12:32] There was a poster and it had baseball penance on it.
[01:12:37] And it had like particular cities of Pittsburgh, a few others and it had names that were considered derogatory to certain groups.
[01:12:51] And that pitch was to get professional sports teams to stop using Native American imagery or names to be mascots for their teams.
[01:13:09] And we've seen a couple of major teams Cleveland for example and the Washington Cleveland baseball team, Washington football team finally remove those mascot or change their names.
[01:13:29] How how well is that going? Have you have you reached the point where you're at an impasse again or are you still seeing progress in professional even college teams because even St. John's changed their name I think to the red storm or something like that.
[01:13:50] How is that going and why is that really, really important?
[01:13:59] I think it's still going pretty well Eric everyone's continuing to work on those issues across the country and it's really important because again it's part of this issue we started talking about.
[01:14:15] That's just basically educating Americans about the Native Americans and tribes and that we're still here.
[01:14:22] And so many people still don't know that we're still here and we should be able to control our own images and you know we're not mascots.
[01:14:34] We're people were sovereign nations were here and we have control over things like like mascots and names of things and you know people need to understand that.
[01:14:49] It's something too that impacts our children, our kids when they see these these mascots and have people calling mascots and all that stuff.
[01:15:01] It really impacts you know their image of themselves and everything and it's not any good for our kids and all this has been certified by doctors and psychologists.
[01:15:15] This is really bad for kids and so for that reason we all keep working on that.
[01:15:21] Alright so John if people want to learn more about your organization and the work that you're doing and the issues that you're dealing with what's the best way for people to get in touch with you?
[01:15:38] Well we've got a website for the Native Americans rights fund that you can go to NARF, the abbreviation for Native American rights fund in ARF.ORG and all kinds of information on there about Native Americans and the work that we're doing on their behalf
[01:15:59] and also an opportunity to donate because again we're a nonprofit organization.
[01:16:06] We can't continue to do the legal representation that we do for our people without that support so please everyone go through the website NARF.ORG.
[01:16:19] John Ekkahawk first of all again I want to thank you for coming on.
[01:16:24] I am glad and I know you're not doing the work for it but I'm glad that you're getting your flowers now that people are recognizing the work that you have done all these years to make sure that Native Americans rights are respected and protected.
[01:16:47] So I commend you for that and I'm glad that other people are commending you for that work.
[01:16:54] And again I just want to thank you for coming on the podcast and I wish you continue to success and long health as long as you want to do this work.
[01:17:05] I want you to be as healthy as you can to keep doing it.
[01:17:09] Okay thank you very much Eric and I really appreciate being with you today.
[01:17:14] All right guys and we're going to catch all on the other side.
[01:17:19] All right and we are back so in closing I just want to thank NASA and John for coming on the program.
[01:17:48] It was a distinct honor and privilege to have both of them come on.
[01:17:53] And I hope that again you know whichever side of the political aisle you claim to be on.
[01:18:05] I hope that when you listen to this show that you are getting a perspective that maybe in the bubble that you get most of your political news that you appreciate that you can get these perspectives.
[01:18:26] So again just want to thank them for coming on and thank you all for listening.
[01:18:32] Stay plugged in through Patreon, stay plugged in through whichever platform you listen to this podcast.
[01:18:41] And until next time.
[01:18:55] Bye.