Host Erik Fleming discusses revival and purpose with Michael Bedenbaugh on constitutional reform and civic renewal, and Representative Pamelya Herndon on New Mexico’s universal childcare, gun safety, mental health in schools, and community justice initiatives.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:07 And today, we're going to talk about revival and purpose.
00:02:08 --> 00:02:13 That's going to be the theme because I have one guest who has written a book
00:02:13 --> 00:02:16 about reviving our republic.
00:02:17 --> 00:02:23 And so he's got some ideas about how we can fix some of the things that are
00:02:23 --> 00:02:30 going on in our government and kind of safeguard them from being taken over
00:02:30 --> 00:02:32 by an authoritarian, right?
00:02:33 --> 00:02:44 And then for the purpose part, I have a young lady who is a state representative in New Mexico, a sister.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:53 Who is doing good work out there and wanted to highlight her and let her come
00:02:53 --> 00:02:57 on and talk about some of the stuff that she's working on, including something
00:02:57 --> 00:03:00 that's really, really amazing that they've just instituted.
00:03:01 --> 00:03:06 And the timing couldn't be perfect to have her come on to explain that a little bit.
00:03:06 --> 00:03:11 So again, the theme of this podcast is revival and purpose.
00:03:12 --> 00:03:18 And I hope that you enjoy our guests as they talk about those particular topics in their own way.
00:03:19 --> 00:03:27 We still are asking people, if you want to donate, support.jamaica.gov.jm.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:33 Well, supportjamaica.gov.jm. I think that's right.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:38 Go to that website and donate what you can.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:42 You know, they're still in the recovery mode there. As you heard,
00:03:43 --> 00:03:47 you know, we've still, it's going to take a minute.
00:03:47 --> 00:03:51 So whatever you can do to help them greatly appreciate that.
00:03:52 --> 00:04:01 And, you know, it's just one of those things where we have to reach out and help somebody if we can.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:07 All of us that have been through a hurricane in our life, we're pretty sensitive to that.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:12 And whatever anybody can do to help out would be greatly appreciated.
00:04:13 --> 00:04:17 Also, too, we are still soliciting supporters for the podcast.
00:04:17 --> 00:04:21 So you can go to patreon.com slash a moment Erik Fleming and do that.
00:04:21 --> 00:04:28 Or you can go to momenterik.com and do the same thing and also kind of learn
00:04:28 --> 00:04:33 a little bit more about the podcast if this is your first time stopping by and listening.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:37 Whatever you can do, we greatly appreciate it.
00:04:37 --> 00:04:43 Most important thing is I appreciate y'all listening and tuning in to the podcast.
00:04:43 --> 00:04:48 We just celebrated Veterans Day. Shout out to all the veterans.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 You know, I had my brief moment with the U.S.
00:04:54 --> 00:04:59 Marine Corps, you know, but I don't, you know, that's, I didn't,
00:04:59 --> 00:05:04 as I used to tell people, I didn't get to go to war, I didn't get to shoot at
00:05:04 --> 00:05:08 somebody or nobody could shot at me, right?
00:05:08 --> 00:05:11 But I did do like six months in a special program.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:20 And that short time made me appreciate what these young men and women have signed up for.
00:05:21 --> 00:05:27 And, you know, it's just we need to do more for our veterans than just say,
00:05:27 --> 00:05:30 you know, thank you for our service. There's a lot of issues that we need to
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 address, you know, primarily housing and employment once they've served our country.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:40 But, you know, I'm glad that we take the time out to thank them for their service.
00:05:41 --> 00:05:45 So on that note, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to go ahead and get this program started.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G. Music.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:04 Thanks, Erik. The U.S. Congress approved a compromise to end the longest government shutdown in U.S.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:08 History, restoring funding for federal agencies through January 30th.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:14 Democratic Representative Adelita Grijalva was sworn in by House of Representatives
00:06:14 --> 00:06:19 Speaker Mike Johnson seven weeks after she won a special election in Arizona.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:23 The death toll from Hurricane Melissa across Jamaica, Haiti,
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 and the Dominican Republic has risen to 96.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:32 President Trump pardoned Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and dozens of other allies
00:06:32 --> 00:06:37 accused of trying to overturn his 2020 election loss. The U.S.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:43 Has escalated military tensions with Venezuela by deploying the USS Gerald Ford
00:06:43 --> 00:06:46 Aircraft Carrier Strike Group to the Latin American region.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:51 The U.S. Supreme Court rejected an appeal by a former Kentucky County official
00:06:51 --> 00:06:58 seeking to overturn its landmark 2015 ruling that legalized same-sex marriage nationwide.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:03 A federal judge ruled that President Trump unlawfully ordered National Guard
00:07:03 --> 00:07:05 troops to Portland, Oregon.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:10 A Utah judge threw out a new Republican-drawn congressional map and adopted
00:07:10 --> 00:07:14 an alternate likely to create a Democratic-leaning district.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:20 The head of the BBC and its new boss resigned following accusations of bias,
00:07:20 --> 00:07:23 including the editing of a speech by President Trump.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:28 President Trump ordered the Justice Department to investigate meatpacking companies
00:07:28 --> 00:07:34 for alleged manipulation and collusion driving up record-high U.S. beef prices.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:40 A Kansas newspaper, the Marion County record, received a $3 million settlement
00:07:40 --> 00:07:47 and an apology from the county for a 2023 police raid that violated its constitutional rights.
00:07:47 --> 00:07:52 Representative Bonnie Watson Coleman of New Jersey, the state's first black
00:07:52 --> 00:07:56 woman in Congress, announced she will not seek re-election in 2026.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:01 And, after 232 years, the U.S.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:08 Mint has made the last penny. I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:15 --> 00:08:20 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for
00:08:20 --> 00:08:22 my guest, Michael Bedenbaugh.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:26 Michael Bedenbaugh is an American political commentator, author,
00:08:26 --> 00:08:31 and former congressional candidate whose work explores the intersection of history,
00:08:31 --> 00:08:34 governance, and civic renewal in the United States.
00:08:34 --> 00:08:40 A former president of Preservation South Carolina, he has led high-profile nonprofit
00:08:40 --> 00:08:45 initiatives focused on heritage, community revitalization, and public accountability.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:52 He received the Order of Palmetto by Governor Henry McMaster in 2021.
00:08:52 --> 00:08:57 A veteran of the U.S. Navy and a frequent speaker on constitutional values and
00:08:57 --> 00:09:02 political reform, Michael brings a uniquely grounded perspective shaped by service,
00:09:02 --> 00:09:03 scholarship, and public leadership.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:10 He is the host of Perspective with Mike Bedenbaugh and the author of Reviving
00:09:10 --> 00:09:13 Our Republic, 95 Theses for the Future of America.
00:09:14 --> 00:09:18 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 on this podcast, Michael Bedenbaugh.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:37 All right. Michael Edwin Bedenbaugh. How you doing, sir? You doing good?
00:09:38 --> 00:09:41 I'm doing great, Erik. How about yourself? I'm doing fine.
00:09:41 --> 00:09:48 I'm really glad that your folks reached out to me to get you on and having a
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 chance to kind of go through the book. I got some questions.
00:09:53 --> 00:09:58 I got some questions. But the main thing I wanted to do since we've just had
00:09:58 --> 00:10:01 Veterans Day, I want to commend you for your service.
00:10:02 --> 00:10:05 You were a Navy veteran from what I understand? Yes.
00:10:06 --> 00:10:12 Yeah. Yes, I was. So I just wanted to make sure I made that acknowledgement to you. Well, thank you.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:18 So how I normally go about this thing is that I start off with a couple of icebreakers.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:22 The first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:10:23 --> 00:10:30 Okay. All right. The quote is, the strength of America has never been in grand gestures or applause.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:34 It is in the steady courage of citizens who uphold the principles of liberty,
00:10:35 --> 00:10:38 accountability, and responsible governance.
00:10:39 --> 00:10:44 Well, that's the goal, isn't it? That sounds like a nice, you know,
00:10:44 --> 00:10:50 America is an aspirational nation and thoughtful people who say quotes like
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 that have the aspiration that that's what we should be.
00:10:53 --> 00:11:00 But, you know, we have a lot of people who like to speak loudly and and carry a sledgehammer.
00:11:00 --> 00:11:06 So, you know, that's why a citizen involved nation is why it's so important,
00:11:06 --> 00:11:13 because what makes this nation work is when people stand up against the winds
00:11:13 --> 00:11:21 and ensure that mission of aspirational liberty always is in the forefront. Yeah.
00:11:22 --> 00:11:26 All right. So now the next one is what I call 20 questions.
00:11:26 --> 00:11:32 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 18.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:39 What's one thing we might all agree is important, no matter our differences?
00:11:39 --> 00:11:42 That we love our children. Okay.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:44 That's a good one.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:51 That's a good one. no matter where I travel in the world, that is always a unifying
00:11:51 --> 00:11:55 humanity. I always say, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 Being a parent is a, is a magical moment. There's no doubt about that.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 Especially when you've seen them become adults.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:09 That's really kind of like, there's a comedian, I forget his name,
00:12:09 --> 00:12:12 but he says, I made a person.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:17 A new human. That's right.
00:12:17 --> 00:12:21 Well, and that's really important to me now because I just found out I'm going
00:12:21 --> 00:12:25 to be a grandpa. Well, congratulations on that. Congratulations.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:29 Yep. So that's good. Yeah. I think I got a little time on that one.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:34 How did a historic preservationist decide to shift his focus to preserving the nation?
00:12:35 --> 00:12:44 Because it's the same thing. It's I've always grown up with a sense of place,
00:12:44 --> 00:12:50 meaningful sense of why place matters, whether it's a historic house,
00:12:50 --> 00:12:53 whether it's from a mansion in Greenville,
00:12:54 --> 00:12:59 South Carolina, we saved to a little 800-square-foot Gullah house on the Fusky
00:12:59 --> 00:13:03 Island that we saved that was built by, you know,
00:13:03 --> 00:13:10 Friedman in 1870 to the place called the United States and what that means and
00:13:10 --> 00:13:14 what happens while you're standing here and what intention you put into it.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:20 It's all the same to me. And once I retired from dealing with localism regarding historic buildings,
00:13:20 --> 00:13:25 you know, at 65 and looking at legacy of children and grandchildren,
00:13:25 --> 00:13:32 I realized this to me is the most important thing that I can contribute to preserve.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:37 And here's my little piece of it, my perspective of it. And to me, it's the same thing.
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 Yeah, I got you. In describing Trumpism.
00:13:42 --> 00:13:48 You said that the irony is striking. A faction that claims to defend the tradition
00:13:48 --> 00:13:53 of liberty now proposes to save it through concentration of executive power.
00:13:54 --> 00:13:57 How does that conflict with your vision for America?
00:13:58 --> 00:14:04 Well, what I'm referring to is Project 2025. And when I first put my book into
00:14:04 --> 00:14:07 an official form, I've been working on it for 10 years, but my book,
00:14:07 --> 00:14:11 Reviving Our Republic, 95 Theses for the Future of America,
00:14:12 --> 00:14:16 My focus has always been in the American tradition of divided power,
00:14:17 --> 00:14:24 of localism, of power coming up from the people, from the states who are the
00:14:24 --> 00:14:25 members of the federal government.
00:14:26 --> 00:14:31 And the Project 2025 mistrusts that.
00:14:31 --> 00:14:40 But they communicate clearly that people need to be regulated on what they think, how they worship,
00:14:40 --> 00:14:47 and only one way of worship and one way of entertainment is better.
00:14:47 --> 00:14:54 And that needs to be engineered and governed and best to be governed through a strong executive.
00:14:55 --> 00:15:01 And it is the most un-American thing I've ever heard. But it's also not surprising
00:15:01 --> 00:15:05 considering the past 50 years we've forgotten how to teach civic education.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 Yeah, yeah. And that's a key thing.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:17 And I've been very fortunate to have people who have been stressing the education part.
00:15:17 --> 00:15:20 And, you know, I think a lot of
00:15:20 --> 00:15:24 people, excuse me, especially when they're younger, take it for granted.
00:15:25 --> 00:15:29 And now in this in this day and age, I think it's really, really vital that
00:15:29 --> 00:15:34 people have some kind of political efficacy, whether it's, you know,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:38 just a basic understanding or they're political junkies like us. Right.
00:15:38 --> 00:15:42 Yeah. They kind of need to understand how this thing works to know. That's right.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:49 That's right. Why did you decide to mimic Martin Luther's 95 thesis in putting
00:15:49 --> 00:15:51 together your book, Reviving Our Republic?
00:15:51 --> 00:15:55 And that question means a lot to me. I grew up Lutheran.
00:15:55 --> 00:15:58 Oh, there you go. You're my audience.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 Well, you know, I was warned when I was telling people what I wanted to do.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:09 I grew up in a Lutheran area. My German ancestors came here as Lutherans.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:12 They shifted over during the second great awakening to become Methodist.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:20 But they, so I'm just a history nerd, and I like the symbolism of it.
00:16:20 --> 00:16:26 I like the notion of Martin Luther by himself standing up against a corrupted
00:16:26 --> 00:16:28 16th century Catholic church.
00:16:29 --> 00:16:35 And I kind of related to that and the power of one person to make a difference.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:40 And so I used it. You know, I had to think of things to fill out the 95 thesis
00:16:40 --> 00:16:46 and make it work. But I stayed, you know, honoring that. Yeah, yeah.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:52 What was it about Washington's farewell address that inspired you to write the
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 book and make it the foundation for your reform?
00:16:55 --> 00:17:01 Well, first of all, I think Washington was our most important founding father, without a doubt.
00:17:01 --> 00:17:06 America as it exists today would not exist without George Washington at the
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 helm of decision-making in the late 18th century.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:16 And without going all into the stories of it, But basically,
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 when you look at all revolutions around the world where people overthrew a governing structure,
00:17:21 --> 00:17:28 it usually ended up turning immediately into a bloody civil war and chaos after they took power.
00:17:28 --> 00:17:31 People who know how to tear down things don't know how to build things.
00:17:31 --> 00:17:36 We were fortunate that we were led by people who understood how to build things.
00:17:36 --> 00:17:41 But because of Washington's influence, our what I think inevitable Civil War,
00:17:41 --> 00:17:44 because of the conflicting issues of liberty and enslavement,
00:17:45 --> 00:17:51 was forestalled four score and seven years to where constitutional order and
00:17:51 --> 00:17:58 rule of law could be set into a way that would continue after the Civil War.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:06 And so when he left, he realized the things that the Constitutional Convention
00:18:06 --> 00:18:09 had missed, the power of parties, these sort of things.
00:18:09 --> 00:18:16 So he gave his farewell address to say, all right, Franklin said it's a republic if you can keep it.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:19 Here's how I think you can keep it. Watch out for these things.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:28 And I really became aware of that during the 2015 when I saw the first Republican primary debate.
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 When Donald Trump was first time on the stage. And I lived in New York in the
00:18:33 --> 00:18:36 80s. I knew Donald Trump. I knew how he acted.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:38 Didn't know him personally, but I understood him.
00:18:39 --> 00:18:44 And I also understood my people here in the rural South. And I realized we're
00:18:44 --> 00:18:46 getting ready to go on a really rough ride.
00:18:47 --> 00:18:51 And that inspired me to put all these things together and start working on putting
00:18:51 --> 00:18:54 the book together, which I finally was able to do by 2024.
00:18:55 --> 00:19:00 Yeah, yeah. So you kind of touched on it when you were answering the quote,
00:19:00 --> 00:19:06 but why is it important to view American citizens as architects in this system of government?
00:19:06 --> 00:19:13 Well, in my book, I talk about the founders. People talk about the founders of the nation.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:16 And in reality, they didn't found anything.
00:19:16 --> 00:19:22 What they did have was a entity,
00:19:22 --> 00:19:28 an ex-colonial entity made up of all sorts of people from all over Europe and
00:19:28 --> 00:19:33 England that really normally would never get along, plus the issue of enslavement,
00:19:34 --> 00:19:35 how all of those systems work.
00:19:36 --> 00:19:45 And what they did, they constructed an edifice that they felt that house this body of people.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:51 And, you know, they were restricted by their own 18th century perspectives,
00:19:51 --> 00:19:55 but they did give a way to add on to the house.
00:19:55 --> 00:20:00 They did give a way to revitalize the property and take care of it.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:05 And I consider Washington's farewell address as a maintenance manual on that
00:20:05 --> 00:20:12 structure and one that we have ignored to a fault into our detriment.
00:20:13 --> 00:20:19 Yeah, I get you. And, you know, so you're using the term architect more in...
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 Using your historical preservationist background, like an architect is kind
00:20:25 --> 00:20:30 of like the maintenance person, the person to make sure that the blueprints are followed.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 If you want to add something, okay, you've got to get our permission to add
00:20:34 --> 00:20:37 something or take away something from the building.
00:20:37 --> 00:20:41 Well, no, not necessarily. I'm just using it as a metaphor that these people,
00:20:41 --> 00:20:46 the way an architect constructs and designs a home or a building,
00:20:46 --> 00:20:48 they constructed and designed the Constitution.
00:20:49 --> 00:20:55 That's what they did. And so take the metaphor to today and also using my preservation.
00:20:56 --> 00:21:00 You know, I am used to seeing demolition by neglect, you know,
00:21:01 --> 00:21:04 when you have a grand, wonderful building and the guy who owns it doesn't take
00:21:04 --> 00:21:08 care of it and it becomes demolished because they just neglect it.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 And that's where I fear where we are right now, right?
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17 But I do believe the foundation that they put in place is the best and only
00:21:17 --> 00:21:22 hope for us to find our way back to creating a civil society that they had hoped
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 would come out of their constitutional convention.
00:21:25 --> 00:21:30 We've had a hard time trying to create that. We've had a lot of regression and fighting with it.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:36 But I still believe it is the best way to start to remake who we are.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:40 Yeah. All right. Going back to Washington's farewell address,
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 this is what he said about political parties.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:47 However, political parties may now and then answer popular ends.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:53 They are likely in the course of time and things to become potent engines by
00:21:53 --> 00:21:58 which cunning, ambitious and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the
00:21:58 --> 00:22:02 power of the people and to usurp themselves for the reins of government.
00:22:02 --> 00:22:07 Destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:12 So, you do agree with that statement. So, tell me why you do that.
00:22:12 --> 00:22:19 I just, it's just to be self-evident. I cannot imagine a better American prophet.
00:22:20 --> 00:22:26 Than someone who utters those words 250 years ago.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:32 And they resonate so realistically to us today and what we're facing today.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:37 These people were some of the best political observers that ever existed as
00:22:37 --> 00:22:40 a condition of the enlightenment and the reading that they were able to do.
00:22:41 --> 00:22:42 He understood what would happen.
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 And we are living in that outcome right now. Yeah.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 You make the argument that candidates for public office should only receive
00:22:52 --> 00:22:55 contributions from individuals eligible to vote.
00:22:55 --> 00:22:59 Explain why that is important in reviving the republic.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:05 Well, in the book, I have 95 theses, but most of those theses are to give arguments
00:23:05 --> 00:23:09 of why the 40 policy points I propose are important.
00:23:09 --> 00:23:12 And that is one of the policy points I have.
00:23:12 --> 00:23:18 And to me, it's the most important because as you were in political office,
00:23:18 --> 00:23:24 I ran for Congress in my district, the reddest district in the nation, one of the reddest.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:28 And I ran as an independent and I
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31 saw a kind of
00:23:31 --> 00:23:34 a colonial attitude of outside forces who
00:23:34 --> 00:23:42 would come in and inject into localism their agenda and they did that through
00:23:42 --> 00:23:48 money my my opponents who got nine hundred thousand dollars just for a house
00:23:48 --> 00:23:51 seat and half of that came from out of state,
00:23:52 --> 00:23:55 so you know we have the issue of citizens united
00:23:55 --> 00:23:58 where the supreme court
00:23:58 --> 00:24:01 recognized the fact that the constitution does not
00:24:01 --> 00:24:06 differentiate between natural persons and artificial personas which i think
00:24:06 --> 00:24:12 can be fixed but one of those things that i think we need if if if contributing
00:24:12 --> 00:24:17 money and contributing resources is a form of speech which i don't necessarily
00:24:17 --> 00:24:20 disagree with i don't i don't know.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:27 Hear and haw that. But if that is the case, then let's make sure that speech
00:24:27 --> 00:24:32 comes from the folks that can vote for that person that has the effect and not outside forces.
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 So that's just one of the elements, I think. And every time I tell people this
00:24:36 --> 00:24:41 little thing, you can only give money to who you can vote for, individuals, period.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:45 You know, people go, oh, wow. I'm like, okay,
00:24:45 --> 00:24:50 well, there's one let's go through 40 more well you
00:24:50 --> 00:24:54 know ladies and gentlemen if you had any doubts that that the good gentleman
00:24:54 --> 00:25:00 was from south carolina when he used the phrase here in hall that's it the fact
00:25:00 --> 00:25:07 that he's from the deep south yeah i couldn't i couldn't let you get away with
00:25:07 --> 00:25:09 that way. That's awesome.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:17 You advocate for term limits. Yeah. Now, here's my concern to somebody that's been elected.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:22 One, capital staff would have more influence because they are not term limited
00:25:22 --> 00:25:26 and would have more institutional knowledge than the people who are elected.
00:25:27 --> 00:25:32 Two, lack of institutional knowledge may impact the effectiveness of legislators,
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 making them more susceptible to passing legislation that violates the Constitution
00:25:36 --> 00:25:41 and is more influenced by popular opinion rather than prudence.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 And then three, corporate interests could create candidate mills where they
00:25:46 --> 00:25:51 produce candidates that are electable to the masses and yet serve their corporate masters.
00:25:51 --> 00:25:58 Now, the third one, the reason why I say that is because being in Mississippi,
00:25:58 --> 00:26:02 when I was in the legislature during that time, there were a couple of instances
00:26:02 --> 00:26:05 where we had to deal with municipalities.
00:26:06 --> 00:26:11 You know, they have limited home rule in Mississippi. And so some issues,
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 municipal issues, would have to come to the legislature.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:20 And one of them was how long a person had to be in a particular municipality
00:26:20 --> 00:26:22 to qualify to run for offer.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:29 And what we noticed was that in the debate, we noticed that the casinos were.
00:26:29 --> 00:26:35 You know, were pushing for as limited time as possible.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:40 Because what they were doing was getting people moving in from Vegas,
00:26:41 --> 00:26:44 moving in from Atlantic City, wherever they had operations,
00:26:44 --> 00:26:49 and getting them to show, you know, to come to Mississippi and then run for
00:26:49 --> 00:26:54 the municipal offices where the cities, where the casinos were, right?
00:26:54 --> 00:26:57 Oh, my. Do you mean carpetbaggers? Yeah.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:04 And so, you know, so it was like they were plugging and playing.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:07 So it was like if they needed somebody, say, in Biloxi, right,
00:27:08 --> 00:27:12 then they would get somebody in and get them set up, you know,
00:27:12 --> 00:27:16 put them on a casino payroll and then, or just transfer them from another casino
00:27:16 --> 00:27:18 and then run them for the office.
00:27:18 --> 00:27:24 And so they wanted the least amount of time to be a resident in order to qualify
00:27:24 --> 00:27:26 them to run for those offices.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:31 That's one example. Then the other example I use is Ferguson, Missouri.
00:27:31 --> 00:27:38 As tragic as the Michael Brown situation was, it enlightened the world to see
00:27:38 --> 00:27:42 how they were operating their local government. Because here was a city that
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 was majority African-American.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:49 But every elected official in the city was white. And people were trying to
00:27:49 --> 00:27:50 figure out how that worked.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:55 Well, all those folks that were elected to the city council worked for the biggest company.
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 In Ferguson, which was some kind of electrical company or whatever.
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 And so because of the tragedy of Michael Brown that exposed that,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:06 and now they have a black mayor and a couple of black city council people and
00:28:06 --> 00:28:08 black police chief, all that stuff.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:16 So that's why that third example kind of, you know, the term limits might make it more,
00:28:17 --> 00:28:24 I'd say easy for a big financial interest, a corporate interest to control an election.
00:28:24 --> 00:28:26 But go ahead and rebut those concerns.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 Well, that's what's happening now. I mean, corporations control the House of
00:28:32 --> 00:28:37 Representatives and these people spend all their time raising money.
00:28:37 --> 00:28:43 The issue with term limits, well, several things. We have a permanent bureaucratic
00:28:43 --> 00:28:47 state now that is out of control in the sense of they are perpetual.
00:28:48 --> 00:28:53 And we need to be able to be engaged constantly to make sure that there's perpetual
00:28:53 --> 00:28:58 bureaucracy is there for merit and not politicized.
00:28:58 --> 00:29:03 There's one thing that we have to do. The other thing is on the big picture,
00:29:03 --> 00:29:10 when you look at who we are as America today, I see the conflict between being
00:29:10 --> 00:29:17 a world hegemonic power of having the world currency as a standard currency for world currency.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:26 Discourse and economics, and also being a nation that is a federal republic
00:29:26 --> 00:29:30 where individual liberty is the most important.
00:29:31 --> 00:29:33 Those two entities cannot exist at the same time.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:40 And so when I talk about term limits, I'm also, you know, there's 40 policy points in my book.
00:29:41 --> 00:29:48 Not one policy point is going to work unless at least 10 or 11 other ones go along with it,
00:29:48 --> 00:29:53 which is the decorporatization of our society that is politically active and
00:29:53 --> 00:29:57 take away political power from corporations. We have to do that.
00:29:57 --> 00:30:02 No elected leader is ever going to work for the people as long as that's in
00:30:02 --> 00:30:04 place, as long as Citizens United is there.
00:30:05 --> 00:30:13 So I think the bigger picture is it is vitally important that people who run
00:30:13 --> 00:30:19 to represent their people know that they have to have a livelihood,
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 they have to have a job and investment in their community, and they're only
00:30:23 --> 00:30:27 taking a period of time out to represent them and then come back.
00:30:28 --> 00:30:33 All those other things can be fixed, but the way it is now has so corrupted
00:30:33 --> 00:30:39 the political class that I see it as self-evident. We need to cut that off. But you're right.
00:30:39 --> 00:30:42 Other things have to happen, too, for it to be effective.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:45 Yeah, yeah. And, you know, and there's,
00:30:45 --> 00:30:50 There's a certain nobility in the citizen legislator, right?
00:30:51 --> 00:30:53 Yeah, the Cincinnatus, right? Yeah.
00:30:54 --> 00:30:59 It's just, you know, that, you know, serving in that body, it was like there
00:30:59 --> 00:31:01 were people who were farmers, people that were insurance agents.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 Of course, you had your lawyers and doctors and all that, but it was just to
00:31:06 --> 00:31:14 have that mix of people, you would see fundamentally that the example is working
00:31:14 --> 00:31:16 or the experiment is working.
00:31:16 --> 00:31:21 And, you know, to kind of make it a career thing, because like in Mississippi,
00:31:21 --> 00:31:26 we were part-time and most states are part-time, but there are some states that
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 are full-time legislators, Illinois and Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania,
00:31:29 --> 00:31:30 I used to get tickled all the time.
00:31:31 --> 00:31:34 One of them would say, well, hey, man, have one of your staff people send me
00:31:34 --> 00:31:36 something. I said, you're talking to the staff. What are you talking?
00:31:36 --> 00:31:41 Yeah. Yeah. South Carolina is part time, too. And I want to reiterate,
00:31:41 --> 00:31:44 my book is focused on the federal government.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:49 You know, I was in city council in my hometown of prosperity of only 800 people,
00:31:50 --> 00:31:52 you know, in small towns like that.
00:31:52 --> 00:31:56 And, you know, this in Mississippi, there's really not a line of people ready
00:31:56 --> 00:31:58 to be mayor of these little towns.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:03 And usually it's the guy that everybody likes and has had some sort of been
00:32:03 --> 00:32:07 able to elevate himself in town, whatever, whatever reasons,
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 you know, every community needs to have their own systems.
00:32:11 --> 00:32:14 And, and, you know, there's only so many people in a small town that wants to
00:32:14 --> 00:32:16 serve on the planning commission.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:22 So, but this, what I'm talking about is really focused on the federal government,
00:32:22 --> 00:32:28 which I see as a unique, different thing than what state governments are supposed to do. Gotcha.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:34 Can we ever muster the political will to get rid of the electoral college?
00:32:35 --> 00:32:41 I don't know, but I'm not necessarily sure if I buy into that we have to. And here's why.
00:32:42 --> 00:32:48 The Electoral College was the element that, you know, when they did the Constitution,
00:32:49 --> 00:32:55 they hadn't, the concept of a parliamentarian system and all of that hadn't
00:32:55 --> 00:33:00 really come into maturity like it is, like it did in the 19th century.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:03 So they didn't have that example as well. And what
00:33:03 --> 00:33:06 they were trying to do was to create kind of a parliamentarian system where
00:33:06 --> 00:33:14 other people would represent a state because they saw the states as members
00:33:14 --> 00:33:19 of the federal government and they saw the states as being responsible for putting
00:33:19 --> 00:33:22 the president in office. And so.
00:33:23 --> 00:33:29 I don't necessarily mind the Electoral College because I like the fact of us
00:33:29 --> 00:33:31 having states elect presidents.
00:33:31 --> 00:33:38 But what needs to happen to be more realistic is to have it represent the votes
00:33:38 --> 00:33:41 broken down and not winner take all.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:46 Because we have so many times where we have, you know, the Electoral College
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 wins and the popular, the Electoral College wins, but the popular vote lost.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:58 And that's for several reasons. One, the Electoral College represents the delegation
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 from the state, the number of representatives and the number of senators.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:08 Well, when you have representatives of 750 people in each district,
00:34:08 --> 00:34:11 when the nation was formed, it was only 35.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:14 So one of my theses is to make them smaller.
00:34:15 --> 00:34:21 But when you have that, it makes it very, very easy for those numbers to round
00:34:21 --> 00:34:24 up or round down in a way that skews the system.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:31 So I'm concerned with a purely popular election of our president because I think
00:34:31 --> 00:34:40 what we have, system we have now, is the outcome of the myth that we should be popularly electing.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 Because when you have popular elections, you tend to have short-term trauma
00:34:44 --> 00:34:47 reactions that people tend,
00:34:47 --> 00:34:52 you know, get into a trend, short-term trend, short-term reaction that could
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55 not be good for the whole body politic.
00:34:56 --> 00:35:01 So I like it, but I don't like it the way it is.
00:35:02 --> 00:35:05 It needs to go back to be truly representation and broken up.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:07 You know, with 30% of the people voted Democrat.
00:35:09 --> 00:35:14 40% voted Republican and 20% voted for, I think those numbers add up,
00:35:15 --> 00:35:20 voted for an independent, then the Electoral College should represent that in the numbers.
00:35:21 --> 00:35:26 Got you. So, you know, the states that, even the states that break it up by
00:35:26 --> 00:35:29 congressional district, I think it's Maine and Nebraska.
00:35:30 --> 00:35:36 You said even that needs to be tweaked, where it's like, you know,
00:35:36 --> 00:35:44 so in Nebraska, if President Trump got 51% of the vote and Kamala Harris got 49,
00:35:45 --> 00:35:48 then the Electoral College should be divided 51-49.
00:35:49 --> 00:35:51 Yes, not winner take all.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 Because this whole thing of taking the state and red state is a myth.
00:35:55 --> 00:36:01 We are not, I mean, if you look at the real colorization of it,
00:36:01 --> 00:36:06 of a state between red and purple and really show the numbers,
00:36:06 --> 00:36:09 There is no solid color anywhere.
00:36:09 --> 00:36:16 You know, it's just not. And it creates empowerment to the political parties to manipulate that.
00:36:16 --> 00:36:20 And I think we need to remember, you know, just because someone wins an election
00:36:20 --> 00:36:22 doesn't mean they control everybody.
00:36:22 --> 00:36:27 Right. And we've forgotten that. Plus, another little element I want to insert
00:36:27 --> 00:36:28 here is the issue of constituency.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:36 We have now corrupted the concept of constituency to be only those people who voted for us.
00:36:36 --> 00:36:39 And not the people we represent.
00:36:40 --> 00:36:46 And that is probably the most dangerous trend in the way we define ourselves
00:36:46 --> 00:36:49 since the nation's founding.
00:36:50 --> 00:36:55 Because if you assume your constituency are only those who voted for you,
00:36:55 --> 00:37:00 we are doomed to eternal conflict.
00:37:01 --> 00:37:05 Yeah, you mentioned something about parliamentary system.
00:37:06 --> 00:37:11 And I threw this out to another guest, excuse me, who, you know,
00:37:11 --> 00:37:15 has issued out some reforms or whatever ideas for reform.
00:37:16 --> 00:37:22 And so with a parliamentary system, as far as our legislative branch,
00:37:23 --> 00:37:25 would be more inclusive?
00:37:25 --> 00:37:28 Because if you look at the countries that have parliamentary systems,
00:37:28 --> 00:37:33 they don't have a binary political party set up.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:39 There's multiple parties out there. Do you think that would be better for us or not?
00:37:40 --> 00:37:51 I think after 250 years, we can't change things too much because I don't trust people.
00:37:52 --> 00:37:57 The ability of us now to be able to, with all the negative influences of corporate
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00 money and everything, to try to overturn the whole system.
00:38:01 --> 00:38:05 So that's why my book goes back to the foundational systems and just revises
00:38:05 --> 00:38:10 it to where, you know, the best way for us to not have binary voting, just,
00:38:11 --> 00:38:16 you know, which automatically, you know, first past the post or winner take all.
00:38:17 --> 00:38:22 Leads to a nation that is just two parties that are constantly fighting.
00:38:22 --> 00:38:25 And that constantly shows that that divides up a nation over time.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:32 And so that's why we have to have voting reform, like ranked choice voting,
00:38:32 --> 00:38:35 like popular vote, you know, that sort of thing.
00:38:36 --> 00:38:39 And we need to, states need to do more of that.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:44 And it would help empower other parties to come along. But again,
00:38:44 --> 00:38:49 all these other elements have to happen, too, to help make all that work together.
00:38:49 --> 00:38:57 But it would be we need to have more. I love the idea of the Congress should
00:38:57 --> 00:39:02 have coalitions of parties to get legislation passed instead of dictates from
00:39:02 --> 00:39:06 the cloakroom of the caucus of one major party.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 That's part of our dysfunction. Yeah.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:15 So this last question I'm going to ask you in the spirit of what I've always
00:39:15 --> 00:39:18 noticed in science fiction.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:29 So science fiction to me is basically societal reform encapsulized in an entertaining story. Right.
00:39:29 --> 00:39:34 And one of the things that we used to, you know, those of us in the black community
00:39:34 --> 00:39:39 used to always notice is that y'all are creating this future,
00:39:39 --> 00:39:41 but where are the black folks in this future, right?
00:39:42 --> 00:39:45 And so a lot of times people, when they do...
00:39:46 --> 00:39:51 Particular things, I don't know if they're race conscious or,
00:39:51 --> 00:39:57 you know, by design or by, you know, just inadvertently doing it.
00:39:57 --> 00:40:03 So the question I want to ask you is, how can Blacks or African Americans benefit
00:40:03 --> 00:40:07 from this revived republic that you're proposing?
00:40:08 --> 00:40:16 Well, it takes engagement. I live in a place where in the Black population,
00:40:17 --> 00:40:23 has a lot in the rural areas have checked out of the system.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:24 They don't participate.
00:40:25 --> 00:40:26 They don't vote.
00:40:28 --> 00:40:32 And they feel there's nothing they can do about whatever's going on.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:38 So I have absolutely no way I can speak for them at all or my friends here who
00:40:38 --> 00:40:39 decide not to vote because,
00:40:40 --> 00:40:47 But I do believe that better representation, smaller districts,
00:40:47 --> 00:40:53 less corporate money, the needs of these folks in small communities will be
00:40:53 --> 00:40:58 better represented, which will then engage these folks to be involved now.
00:40:58 --> 00:41:05 And if I could divert a little bit, because, you know, we have our black representative
00:41:05 --> 00:41:07 here in South Carolina, James Clyburn.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:13 And it's interesting what's going on now, because when people are talking about
00:41:13 --> 00:41:16 gerrymandering, that's one of the things I have is no gerrymandering.
00:41:17 --> 00:41:18 Well, because our districts are
00:41:18 --> 00:41:24 so huge, 750 people, we have seven representatives in South Carolina.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:31 But Clyburn, in order to have a one black representative from South Carolina,
00:41:32 --> 00:41:36 they actually created a gerrymander for James Clyburn.
00:41:36 --> 00:41:44 Because his district deals with the African-American section of Columbia all
00:41:44 --> 00:41:49 the way down connecting to that section of Charleston and in the whole Lowcountry.
00:41:50 --> 00:41:54 And I see now people saying, oh, well, if you don't like gerrymandering,
00:41:55 --> 00:42:00 I mean, I see folks actually wanting to fix the gerrymander,
00:42:00 --> 00:42:03 and they're also quietly going, they'll take care of Clyburn.
00:42:04 --> 00:42:11 So, you know, we have to having smaller districts and and having representatives
00:42:11 --> 00:42:15 closer to the people than just their big donors, because there's no way you
00:42:15 --> 00:42:18 can you can really represent seven or fifty thousand people.
00:42:19 --> 00:42:24 You just represent the ones that are floating at the top and in the south,
00:42:24 --> 00:42:27 especially we know who is floating at the top.
00:42:28 --> 00:42:30 And so these folks are the ones pulling the levers.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:36 So we need to make those smaller. And I think that will, I hope,
00:42:37 --> 00:42:43 will give more opportunity for folks in rural southern areas that has been disenfranchised
00:42:43 --> 00:42:47 before and been felt like they couldn't participate in the system to then participate
00:42:47 --> 00:42:49 more. That's my hope and dream.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:54 Yeah, because, you know, the whole deal of that was...
00:42:56 --> 00:43:01 To make sure that the black population had some representation in Congress,
00:43:01 --> 00:43:04 but they didn't want it to be perverse, you know, like in Mississippi.
00:43:05 --> 00:43:08 Yeah. How did y'all do it there? What happened? So in Mississippi,
00:43:08 --> 00:43:16 it's more natural because the majority of the black population in the state lives west of I-55.
00:43:17 --> 00:43:21 In the Delta area. Right. In the Delta area coming down to Jackson,
00:43:21 --> 00:43:27 Mississippi. So the district is pretty much the northwestern part of the state.
00:43:27 --> 00:43:29 We're really the western part of the state along the river.
00:43:31 --> 00:43:37 And so, you know, it looks easy. And so now there's a guy, I think he's a state
00:43:37 --> 00:43:38 auditor. He wants to be governor or whatever.
00:43:39 --> 00:43:42 He's talking about, well, we need to get rid of Benning Thompson.
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 So, you know, but Mississippi had that. We had this.
00:43:46 --> 00:43:50 If you draw the districts, like we got four in Mississippi.
00:43:50 --> 00:43:56 So if you draw them straight across, right, then you'll basically water down
00:43:56 --> 00:44:01 the black vote there because, you know, everybody's to the West, right?
00:44:01 --> 00:44:06 Yes. Now, in Louisiana, when Cleo Fields was the congressman,
00:44:07 --> 00:44:12 we called it the Zorro District because it was a Z that tried to catch part
00:44:12 --> 00:44:20 of Shreveport and go along I-20, then came down to Boot Park to get Baton Rouge and New Orleans.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:22 And that's how he got in because he was from Baton Rouge.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:27 And I think the worst one I remember was Melvin Watt in North Carolina because
00:44:27 --> 00:44:31 it was just— Oh, North Carolina was a mess. We couldn't, we couldn't even,
00:44:32 --> 00:44:34 it was like, bro, how do you even campaign in that district?
00:44:34 --> 00:44:35 You know what I'm saying?
00:44:36 --> 00:44:38 And then Georgia, Georgia's.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:45 I think pretty simple because most of the population is, is based in Atlanta,
00:44:45 --> 00:44:49 but you know, you have a strong pocket in Macon and Savannah.
00:44:50 --> 00:44:56 So I think that the, you know, that where they play the games at in the Georgia
00:44:56 --> 00:45:04 legislature is the suburbs of Atlanta and they try to, you know, manipulate those.
00:45:04 --> 00:45:11 This Lucy McBath has run in four different districts in the short time that she's been in Congress.
00:45:11 --> 00:45:16 Now they've been either labeled six or seven, but they've been four different configurations.
00:45:17 --> 00:45:22 She even had to knock out a fellow colleague so she could stay in.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:28 And, and, and, you know, and, and then she was going to try to get out and run
00:45:28 --> 00:45:30 for governor, but she decided not to do that.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:36 But, you know, it was just, but I can just imagine her frustration And David
00:45:36 --> 00:45:37 Scott, his district went from...
00:45:39 --> 00:45:45 Basically east of it, I mean, west of Atlanta and looping around to now he's
00:45:45 --> 00:45:48 going east of Atlanta, looping around, but he still had, you know,
00:45:48 --> 00:45:52 because he's from Clayton County originally.
00:45:52 --> 00:45:54 So Clayton County will always be
00:45:54 --> 00:45:58 in the district and he's never tried to physically live in the district.
00:45:58 --> 00:46:02 He just lives in a nice house in Atlanta, but he represents basically his hometown.
00:46:04 --> 00:46:08 Gotcha. Yeah, that's right. A lot of people don't realize you can be a representative
00:46:08 --> 00:46:09 of district you don't live in.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:13 As long as you live in the state. As long as you live in the state.
00:46:13 --> 00:46:18 And, you know, what's interesting also is, you know, the whole district thing,
00:46:18 --> 00:46:19 it originally wasn't that.
00:46:19 --> 00:46:23 It was originally at large and people will vote for their top whatever.
00:46:23 --> 00:46:27 If your state can produce three representatives, then if you had four people
00:46:27 --> 00:46:30 running, the top three voters got to do it.
00:46:31 --> 00:46:35 So I don't know what that would help fix it. But in the southern states where
00:46:35 --> 00:46:38 we live and where we are affected by,
00:46:38 --> 00:46:41 you know, we have that conundrum of the past
00:46:41 --> 00:46:48 where the black population is still socially isolated to some degree socially
00:46:48 --> 00:46:55 within the state and desire representation to represent their interests that
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 a lot of folks don't relate to that look like me.
00:46:59 --> 00:47:04 So we have to figure that out. I think it would I think gerrymandering is a
00:47:04 --> 00:47:10 is a terrible thing, but I think it would be less impactful if we if we make
00:47:10 --> 00:47:13 smaller districts, because I know if we had smaller districts in the state,
00:47:13 --> 00:47:19 we would have several black representatives to represent the low country without
00:47:19 --> 00:47:21 having to gerrymander into areas. Yeah.
00:47:22 --> 00:47:25 But, you know, being in a place like ours with a history like ours,
00:47:26 --> 00:47:29 it isn't easy, man. It takes work. It takes challenges.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:33 And the problem is people have forgotten that it takes a lot of work.
00:47:33 --> 00:47:36 And now we're starting to realize it because we're seeing the outcome of a lot
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 of lazy planning on what we're dealing with now.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:44 Well, as somebody that was accomplished through the crime of gerrymandering,
00:47:45 --> 00:47:49 because virtually my position in the legislature, you know, I had to participate
00:47:49 --> 00:47:53 in a redistricting. And yeah, it's not pretty.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:58 It was like the biggest thing we had to do when I was in Mississippi was try
00:47:58 --> 00:48:00 to pare our districts down.
00:48:01 --> 00:48:06 When they created a lot of the districts, they were like super black districts.
00:48:06 --> 00:48:10 When I first got elected, my district was like 85% black.
00:48:11 --> 00:48:17 And so in the redistricting, you know, I submitted my proposal and they kind
00:48:17 --> 00:48:20 of took a variation of what I requested.
00:48:20 --> 00:48:23 And so it pared it down to 65 percent black.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:28 Because what you do with that gerrymandering, it was like, OK,
00:48:28 --> 00:48:29 well, the emphasis was we got
00:48:29 --> 00:48:33 to get more black legislators because the state's like 40 percent black.
00:48:33 --> 00:48:38 OK, that's a noble thing. But what you did, if you were a Democrat,
00:48:38 --> 00:48:40 was you created all these Republican districts.
00:48:41 --> 00:48:45 Right. And eventually the Republicans, Mississippi was the last state to flip.
00:48:46 --> 00:48:50 To be all Republican and, and, you know, as far as the state house goes,
00:48:50 --> 00:48:57 but that because of what happened that led to that possibility.
00:48:58 --> 00:49:00 So, you know, like you said, it's messy.
00:49:01 --> 00:49:09 And, and like you said, it's going to take people dedicated to make it work.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:17 And for people like you, Michael Bedenbaugh to, to, to offer ideas for us to discuss.
00:49:17 --> 00:49:23 So on that note, how can people, cause we only scratched the surface of what you talked about.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:27 How can people get your book? How can people reach out to you?
00:49:28 --> 00:49:30 Just go ahead and tell the listeners what they can do.
00:49:31 --> 00:49:35 Well, the book is on Amazon and you can go on Amazon,
00:49:35 --> 00:49:39 but you also have my webpage reviving our republic.com
00:49:39 --> 00:49:41 and you can go there you can get access to my
00:49:41 --> 00:49:44 podcast access to all my articles i'm writing
00:49:44 --> 00:49:51 for the european magazine and also to purchase the book there as well so i welcome
00:49:51 --> 00:49:56 anybody to do that i appreciate it the more books i sell the more i could focus
00:49:56 --> 00:50:02 on doing this engaging in people around the country and not having to sell lake
00:50:02 --> 00:50:04 houses here in south carolina to make a living,
00:50:04 --> 00:50:11 which I would much rather do this, because this is where my mission is,
00:50:11 --> 00:50:15 is to make this place something my future grandchildren will recognize.
00:50:15 --> 00:50:23 And there is a serious concern that we could go the trajectory where we will be irreparable.
00:50:24 --> 00:50:26 We will not be able to repair the damages being done.
00:50:27 --> 00:50:31 And we have to start taking this seriously. And this is my little contribution to that.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:37 And I welcome anybody who wants to take it, read it. And I appreciate that very much.
00:50:37 --> 00:50:43 Well, Mike, I greatly appreciate you doing that and contributing to the discourse.
00:50:44 --> 00:50:49 And I'm really grateful and honored that you took the time out to come on the podcast. Thank you.
00:50:50 --> 00:50:53 Well, thanks for asking me, Erik. I really appreciate it. All right,
00:50:53 --> 00:50:55 guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:51:14 --> 00:51:17 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest,
00:51:18 --> 00:51:20 Representative Pamelya Herndon.
00:51:21 --> 00:51:25 Pamelya Herndon serves as a member of the New Mexico House of Representatives
00:51:25 --> 00:51:29 for House District 28 in Albuquerque's Northeast Heights.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:35 She sits as vice chair of the Health and Human Services Committee and as a member
00:51:35 --> 00:51:38 of the House Appropriations Committee.
00:51:38 --> 00:51:44 Pamelya also serves as President and CEO of the KWH Law Center for Social Justice
00:51:44 --> 00:51:49 and Change, a nonprofit law center focused on providing access to justice for
00:51:49 --> 00:51:51 low- and medium-income individuals.
00:51:52 --> 00:51:57 Pamelya previously served as a senior trial attorney with the Department of Treasury
00:51:57 --> 00:52:02 Internal Revenue Service, as an assistant attorney general for New Mexico,
00:52:02 --> 00:52:06 and as a deputy cabinet secretary under Governor Bill Richardson.
00:52:06 --> 00:52:10 In addition to graduating from the Howard University School of Business,
00:52:10 --> 00:52:13 Pamelya is also a graduate of the University of Texas School of Law.
00:52:14 --> 00:52:18 She is admitted to practice law in the states of Colorado and New Mexico and
00:52:18 --> 00:52:20 before the United States Supreme Court.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:25 Pamelya is also licensed as a certified public accountant.
00:52:25 --> 00:52:28 Pamelya is a former W.K. Kellogg Fellow.
00:52:29 --> 00:52:34 She serves as a member of the Board of Directors of U.S. Eagle Federal Credit Union.
00:52:34 --> 00:52:38 She also serves as an elected member of the Council of the Civil Rights and
00:52:38 --> 00:52:41 Social Justice Section, the American Bar Association.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:48 Pamelya was awarded the Purple Ribbon Award in 2022 for her innovative work in
00:52:48 --> 00:52:52 helping to provide financial resources for survivors of domestic violence.
00:52:53 --> 00:52:59 In 2023, Pamelya received a Freshman Legislator of the Year Award from the University
00:52:59 --> 00:53:00 of New Mexico Alumni Association.
00:53:01 --> 00:53:05 Pamelya has been recognized as the Public Lawyer of the Year by the Public Law
00:53:05 --> 00:53:11 Section of the New York of the New Mexico State Bar, and as the Lawyer of the
00:53:11 --> 00:53:13 Year by the Albuquerque Bar Association.
00:53:14 --> 00:53:19 Pamelya occasionally hosts community-focused programs on KUNM Public Radio,
00:53:20 --> 00:53:22 an NPR affiliate station in New Mexico.
00:53:23 --> 00:53:27 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:53:27 --> 00:53:32 on this podcast, Representative Pamelya Herndon.
00:53:43 --> 00:53:47 All right. Representative Pamelya Herndon, the Honorable Pamelya Herndon.
00:53:47 --> 00:53:49 How are you doing, ma'am? You doing good?
00:53:49 --> 00:53:54 I am doing great, and it's absolutely great to be here with you today, Erik Fleming.
00:53:54 --> 00:53:57 Well, it's an honor to have you on.
00:53:57 --> 00:54:02 You know, even though I'm not a member of the legislature now,
00:54:02 --> 00:54:07 it's still always look at people that are serving or have served as fellow colleagues.
00:54:07 --> 00:54:12 And it's really, really an honor to have you to come on.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:18 We're going to talk a little shop, but I want people to know who you are because
00:54:18 --> 00:54:21 you're a very, very incredible person.
00:54:22 --> 00:54:27 And I think that, you know, you're probably one of our best kept secrets as
00:54:27 --> 00:54:30 far as black legislators go in the country.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:38 So I wanted to highlight you and all that. So thank you for agreeing to come on.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:42 It's my pleasure and my honor to be here with you. Yes, ma'am.
00:54:42 --> 00:54:47 All right. So how I normally start off the interviews is that I do a couple of icebreakers.
00:54:48 --> 00:54:52 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:54:52 --> 00:54:59 And the quote is, the strength of women I think is really important no matter
00:54:59 --> 00:55:02 where you are. What does that quote mean to you?
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 One of the things that I have done in my life is I have led a nonprofit law
00:55:08 --> 00:55:09 center focused on women.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:13 And I look at what's happening in the state of New Mexico where we are.
00:55:13 --> 00:55:17 Well, we are the majority of the population in the state.
00:55:17 --> 00:55:21 And so you're absolutely right in terms of looking at the way things are going
00:55:21 --> 00:55:26 to go and develop will absolutely turn in the way in which women are leading
00:55:26 --> 00:55:30 them because they really are the leaders in lots of places and particularly
00:55:30 --> 00:55:31 in the state where I reside.
00:55:31 --> 00:55:36 Now, and the name of the law firm is the KWH Law Firm, is that correct?
00:55:36 --> 00:55:40 It's the KWH Law Center for Social Justice and Change.
00:55:40 --> 00:55:44 And the KWH is the name of my, or the initials of my mother,
00:55:44 --> 00:55:46 Catherine Wade Herndon.
00:55:46 --> 00:55:50 And she was a fighter, an advocate for women in Texas. And I can tell you that
00:55:50 --> 00:55:52 took a lot of fighting and advocacy.
00:55:52 --> 00:55:58 So when I had the opportunity to do so, I opened up my own law firm and I named it after her.
00:56:00 --> 00:56:08 All right. And then she took a secret with her to heaven because your name is
00:56:08 --> 00:56:11 spelled P-A-M-E-L-Y-A.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:15 It's pronounced Pamela, but she put the Y in there. And you said that she put
00:56:15 --> 00:56:17 the Y in all the children's names?
00:56:18 --> 00:56:23 She did. She put a Y in all of her children's names. So there were five of us.
00:56:23 --> 00:56:25 So there was Catherine with a Y.
00:56:25 --> 00:56:31 There was Lucille with a Y. There was Renoir with a Y and Jacqueline with a
00:56:31 --> 00:56:33 Y and then Pamela with a Y.
00:56:33 --> 00:56:36 I think they couldn't figure out where to put that Y.
00:56:36 --> 00:56:40 They wanted Pamela, but so they have to stick it somewhere. So it worked out okay.
00:56:40 --> 00:56:44 Well, I'm trying to figure out how she was... Well, I could see Catherine replaced
00:56:44 --> 00:56:47 the Y with an I, I guess, but she was...
00:56:48 --> 00:56:53 But she never told y'all why she put a Y in the name. She never told us why.
00:56:53 --> 00:56:57 And the only other one that's actually kind of strange, other than Pamela with
00:56:57 --> 00:57:00 a Y, is Lucille, because it looks like Lucycle.
00:57:01 --> 00:57:04 So it's L-U-C-Y-C-L-E, but it's Lucille.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:09 You know, Black people, we can spell anything anyway, but it has its own pronunciation.
00:57:09 --> 00:57:13 Well, I'm sure she had a reason, because I know in Mississippi,
00:57:13 --> 00:57:17 when I was living there, I ran to some people, you know, some black men named
00:57:17 --> 00:57:21 Sir and some black women named Mrs.
00:57:23 --> 00:57:28 What black people used to do is they would name their children after somebody
00:57:28 --> 00:57:30 or something that they had a hard time doing.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:33 Like, for example, I went to school with a guy named Major.
00:57:34 --> 00:57:40 And so his parents named him that because of where he might be in the military, but he never was.
00:57:40 --> 00:57:44 And like my grandfather, his first name was Doc, because they never thought,
00:57:44 --> 00:57:48 they didn't know if he would be a doctor as a black man growing up in the century
00:57:48 --> 00:57:50 before slaves were free.
00:57:50 --> 00:57:54 And so I found out that people were doing that for a reason.
00:57:54 --> 00:57:55 They had to give them some kind of respect.
00:57:56 --> 00:57:58 And if the way they could do it, they'd do it with their names.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:05 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Instead of calling them by title, if you call them, what's your name?
00:58:05 --> 00:58:08 Sir. Okay, sir. I need you to do X, Y. Exactly.
00:58:09 --> 00:58:14 All right. So now the next icebreaker is called 20 questions.
00:58:15 --> 00:58:18 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:58:19 --> 00:58:21 Okay, 16. All right.
00:58:22 --> 00:58:28 What is a misconception people often have about your beliefs or values?
00:58:28 --> 00:58:36 So because I grew up in Texas and because I am a member of a Baptist church,
00:58:37 --> 00:58:41 there may be a misconception, I think, that I didn't support women's rights
00:58:41 --> 00:58:48 in terms of the right to access to abortion care and any other type of assistance
00:58:48 --> 00:58:49 that they may have needed.
00:58:49 --> 00:58:55 And so, but that is not true. I want people to know that even though I grew
00:58:55 --> 00:59:01 up in that era, I do believe that women have a right to have control and autonomy over their bodies.
00:59:01 --> 00:59:03 And I make that known quite often.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:09 Okay. All right. So how did a girl from Texas who studied to be an accountant
00:59:09 --> 00:59:12 initially end up being in New Mexico politics?
00:59:13 --> 00:59:17 Well, you know what, Erik? That is an interesting story, and I'll try to condense
00:59:17 --> 00:59:21 it for you. So I did grow up in Texas, and I always knew that I was going to
00:59:21 --> 00:59:24 be a lawyer. I didn't always know I was going to be an accountant.
00:59:24 --> 00:59:28 So when I was growing up, one of the things I liked a lot was I like math.
00:59:28 --> 00:59:30 That was always very fascinating to me.
00:59:31 --> 00:59:36 But also growing up, there used to be a man by the name of Peter Jennings with the news.
00:59:36 --> 00:59:41 So he would be on television, and he did a story one day on these groups of
00:59:41 --> 00:59:46 people who are in Louisiana. And they still were living with places that had
00:59:46 --> 00:59:51 outdoor toilets at a time when that was not a thing, for example.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:55 And so at the end of his show, I remember, and I still remember to this day,
00:59:55 --> 00:59:58 he said, who will help these people? Who will come to their aid?
00:59:58 --> 01:00:01 I was sitting in front of that television watching that news story,
01:00:01 --> 01:00:03 and I said, I will. I'm going to help them.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 Well, I always knew I was going to go to law school, and I did.
01:00:07 --> 01:00:12 And when I graduated from high school and I went to college at Howard University
01:00:12 --> 01:00:16 in Washington, D.C., well, they had pre-law courses that you could major in,
01:00:17 --> 01:00:18 and I found them to be incredibly boring.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:22 So I decided to major in something that I found to be fascinating,
01:00:22 --> 01:00:23 and that was accounting.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:28 So I graduated in accounting, and I subsequently went to law school because
01:00:28 --> 01:00:32 when you go to law school, you can major in anything at all because everything
01:00:32 --> 01:00:33 is relevant when you go to law school.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:39 And I went to law school, and after graduating from law school,
01:00:39 --> 01:00:42 I also decided to get my certificate as a certified public accountant.
01:00:42 --> 01:00:45 After all, I'd gone through that school and that work and I should do it.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:51 So there were two women who went to law school who also had,
01:00:51 --> 01:00:54 who also went to, who also got their accounting degree, I'm sorry.
01:00:55 --> 01:01:00 And so one woman was in Alabama and her name was Audrey Anderson. She is no longer with us.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:04 She went to work for the Justice Department and me, I went to work for a big
01:01:04 --> 01:01:08 eight accounting firm because at the time, even though I graduated from law
01:01:08 --> 01:01:12 school, you had to spend time doing some audit work in order to get your certificate. it.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:15 So I had to do that and I was in the tax department.
01:01:15 --> 01:01:22 So that's kind of the story of how that all happened. But then my husband graduated from law school.
01:01:22 --> 01:01:26 He always wanted to work in, or teach rather, in a law school.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:31 And when he graduated, he went to work at a large law firm in Denver, Colorado.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:37 We both decided on Denver as a place away from his family and my family,
01:01:37 --> 01:01:38 because we thought if this...
01:01:38 --> 01:01:42 Marriage was going to work. We need to find out how to make sure that we were talking to each other.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:48 So after a while, he went to what I call a gathering of people who want to go to law school.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:53 So you all go to this one place and you're going to be with a ton of law schools.
01:01:53 --> 01:01:56 So he interviewed with the University of New Mexico. He said,
01:01:56 --> 01:01:58 you know, I don't know if I'm going there.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:02 And I said, I never heard of Albuquerque, so I know I'm not going there.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:06 And he liked it. The people were incredibly nice to us.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:12 So we ended up here in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and we've been here ever since, and I love being here.
01:02:13 --> 01:02:15 Yeah, and you got there, what, in 1983?
01:02:15 --> 01:02:19 Is that right? We got here in 1983 after our first child was born.
01:02:19 --> 01:02:21 That's absolutely correct. Okay.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:26 Because I was the reverse. I went to Jackson State, and I was a business major,
01:02:26 --> 01:02:33 but it was accounting that made me say, eh, maybe I need to stick with my first
01:02:33 --> 01:02:35 love, which was politics.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:40 I stayed a summer for summer school to switch majors and ended up being a political
01:02:40 --> 01:02:42 science major when I when I came out.
01:02:43 --> 01:02:47 So and then it was something else you said. Well, I'll go ahead and just go
01:02:47 --> 01:02:52 ahead, because one of the other fascinating things about how you ended up in
01:02:52 --> 01:02:56 this position was that it was it was a succession.
01:02:56 --> 01:02:58 So Deb Haaland, is that her name?
01:02:59 --> 01:03:03 Right. Deb Haaland. Yeah. And so. Right. So she was.
01:03:03 --> 01:03:08 No, I was. So she she got appointed by Biden to be the secretary of interior
01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 because she was in Congress.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:13 And then Melanie Sandsbury.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:17 Is that her name? Stansbury. Right. It is Stansbury. Stansbury.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:23 So she was the state representative and then she ran for the congressional seat and won.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:30 Right. And so then the county commissioners said, we're going to call Pamela
01:03:30 --> 01:03:33 Herndon and appoint her to be the representative.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:37 So when they reached out to you and offered you the position,
01:03:37 --> 01:03:39 what were you thinking? How did that come about?
01:03:40 --> 01:03:45 Well, what you should know is I had been involved in the Democratic Party for
01:03:45 --> 01:03:47 a while after getting here.
01:03:47 --> 01:03:53 And I had known Dale Collin when she was actually the chair of the Democratic Party.
01:03:53 --> 01:03:57 So that was an interesting position before she went to Congress.
01:03:57 --> 01:04:00 So she went to Congress and then, of course, she was appointed by Biden,
01:04:00 --> 01:04:05 as you indicated. And I knew Melanie Stansbury's sister because her sister
01:04:05 --> 01:04:08 was the judge of the probate court.
01:04:09 --> 01:04:13 So I'd known the family for a while before I ever met Melanie.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:17 Then she came back because she always wanted to go back to Washington,
01:04:17 --> 01:04:20 which is where she had worked. But she wanted to go back as a representative.
01:04:20 --> 01:04:25 And so what's interesting about her story is that in the district where she
01:04:25 --> 01:04:30 won, she was the first Democrat to ever win that position. So she won it,
01:04:30 --> 01:04:35 and then when she won, it was, I don't know, it was sort of like a natural...
01:04:36 --> 01:04:39 Secession. Pamela, you should be next. This is what you should be doing.
01:04:39 --> 01:04:43 And I absolutely agreed with them because I've been doing advocacy work for
01:04:43 --> 01:04:48 a long time, running after legislators who would go in the secret elevator when they'd see me coming.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:51 So now they can't do that anymore because I can follow them.
01:04:52 --> 01:04:54 Well, now you got people chasing you right down the elevator.
01:04:56 --> 01:04:58 Thank goodness for that elevator. Right.
01:04:59 --> 01:05:05 Look, because I, you know, I remember being a college student and we were lobbying
01:05:05 --> 01:05:10 up there at the state capitol and me talking to senators and representatives
01:05:10 --> 01:05:12 going down the steps. It was like he was ahead.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, sir. I need you to understand.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:23 And then, you know, and then having the roles reversed. It was I tried to be nicer to lobbyists.
01:05:23 --> 01:05:26 It was there was maybe like one or two that I was like, oh, no,
01:05:26 --> 01:05:27 let me get away from this person.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:35 And then when I was a sergeant at arms, it was like we had we had a secret stairwell,
01:05:35 --> 01:05:37 a quick way to the stairwell from the Senate.
01:05:38 --> 01:05:42 So it's like if a senator was like, hey, Sarge, I need to get away.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:47 I need to get down. And so I would kind of like stand in the way and let the
01:05:47 --> 01:05:50 senators slide past that door so nobody would get to him and stuff.
01:05:51 --> 01:05:58 Yeah, so I can relate a lot to that. And I was the county, when I was asked
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 to run, it was a similar situation. It was a special election.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:07 And I was the county chair. And it was a couple of people in the business community
01:06:07 --> 01:06:11 came to me and said, Erik, it's your time. Because I had run for office before
01:06:11 --> 01:06:14 I lost city council positions.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:18 And yeah. And so, you know, it was just, it wasn't the county commission.
01:06:19 --> 01:06:23 It wasn't the supervisors. It was just some people in the community.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:27 And the lady who was the representative got elected judge.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:33 And so I went to her and she said, hold on for a minute. I went to her house
01:06:33 --> 01:06:35 and she came back with a list of 20 people.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:41 And she said, I need you to call these 20 folks. And if those 20 folks get behind
01:06:41 --> 01:06:44 you, you'll be the representative.
01:06:44 --> 01:06:47 And I got 19 out of 20. So that's how I got in.
01:06:48 --> 01:06:54 What has been more of a challenge for you, running for the position or serving in the position?
01:06:54 --> 01:07:00 So I think both of them are really quite challenging because of all the door
01:07:00 --> 01:07:04 knocking you have to do and the time you have to spend raising funds to make
01:07:04 --> 01:07:05 sure that you have a viable campaign.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:11 But I think that once you get inside the legislature to understand exactly the
01:07:11 --> 01:07:18 process for getting legislation completed and enacted is a very different process
01:07:18 --> 01:07:20 than what I could see from the outside.
01:07:21 --> 01:07:27 So there's lots of inside conversations, internal conversations that go on that
01:07:27 --> 01:07:32 are necessary in order for people to understand why you're trying to bring certain legislation.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:37 So it's almost like advocating again, but it's with a smaller group of people
01:07:37 --> 01:07:41 that you have to convince because their vote really matters,
01:07:42 --> 01:07:44 even though a vote matters from people in the community,
01:07:44 --> 01:07:49 but you have a smaller group that a vote really matters to get a piece of legislation in.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:52 And even after you pass it, you still have to convince the governor,
01:07:52 --> 01:07:55 you've got to sign this piece of legislation.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:00 Don't just let it sit there. So there's a lot of work. I think it's really,
01:08:00 --> 01:08:03 really challenging to get legislation through.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:08 But boy, when it happens, is that a joyous moment. It's a magical moment.
01:08:08 --> 01:08:13 I always say that campaigning is easier than governing.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:21 You know, I think that, you know, to me, it's, you know, you're going out there
01:08:21 --> 01:08:25 and you're talking to people and you, you know, like you said,
01:08:25 --> 01:08:26 door knocking and all that stuff.
01:08:27 --> 01:08:31 It's still a lot easier to talk to constituents than it is to convince them
01:08:31 --> 01:08:34 to vote for you than it is to try to convince a colleague.
01:08:34 --> 01:08:38 Hey, I need you to vote for this. I need you to get this out of committee, all this kind of stuff.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:42 And that's why I keep telling people about Mamdani. Everybody's like,
01:08:42 --> 01:08:45 oh, well, I don't know. he's talking about all these crazy things.
01:08:45 --> 01:08:51 I said he was campaigning once he gets sworn in and he's been elected before.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:54 It's not like there's anything new to him, but it's a different position.
01:08:55 --> 01:08:59 But it's like, once he starts governing, then, you know, we'll see,
01:08:59 --> 01:09:01 we'll see how it goes. I said, don't worry about him.
01:09:01 --> 01:09:08 Cause if he's a normal human being, he'll be humbled once he gets in there.
01:09:08 --> 01:09:12 But I hope he achieves a lot what he wants to achieve. I know.
01:09:12 --> 01:09:17 What is it like being a black legislator in New Mexico. Now,
01:09:17 --> 01:09:20 before you answer that, I've only been to New Mexico once.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:25 And I flew into Albuquerque. This was, I guess it was like in February.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:31 It was February of that year. So it was raining when I got to Albuquerque.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:36 But we were having a meeting in Santa Fe. So we had to go up the mountain and
01:09:36 --> 01:09:38 go up to Santa Fe. And it was snowing.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:41 And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, well, this is different.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:45 But it was kind of like, it was like San Francisco. It was like people wearing
01:09:45 --> 01:09:47 sweatshirts and shorts.
01:09:47 --> 01:09:50 You know what I'm saying? It was snowing outside. So I said,
01:09:50 --> 01:09:52 wow, this is pretty unique.
01:09:52 --> 01:09:58 Now, I didn't see too many people to look like me when I was there, when I was in Santa Fe.
01:09:58 --> 01:10:05 But I assumed there were some folks there because we went to a club and the DJ played MC Hammer.
01:10:06 --> 01:10:09 I guess maybe he saw me out there. I don't know. He played an MC Hammer song.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:13 So at least somebody was out there.
01:10:14 --> 01:10:18 But what's it like? Because like I was telling you before we started recording,
01:10:18 --> 01:10:23 my group was basically the second largest black caucus in the nation.
01:10:24 --> 01:10:28 So there were I had colleagues and, you know, even though we were from different
01:10:28 --> 01:10:31 parts of the state, we all had that commonality.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:36 And we were like a really big block, you know, as far as determining who the
01:10:36 --> 01:10:40 speaker was going to be and trying to get certain things passed. Yes.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:46 But in New Mexico, it's you and it's only four of y'all, from what I understand.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:49 That is correct. Two in the House, two in the Senate.
01:10:50 --> 01:10:54 That is correct. So, and there's 70 representatives.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:58 That's right. That's absolutely correct. Only two out of 70.
01:10:59 --> 01:11:04 How does that work for you? You know, it really works well.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:09 And I think because if you look at New Mexico as a whole, it's probably one
01:11:09 --> 01:11:12 of the most diverse states in the entire United States.
01:11:12 --> 01:11:17 So whatever nationality or culture you can think of, it's here.
01:11:17 --> 01:11:21 And so even though there are only four of us in the legislature.
01:11:21 --> 01:11:27 I can tell you that we have been successful in passing some legislation that
01:11:27 --> 01:11:30 was truly unique to Black people.
01:11:30 --> 01:11:35 So, for example, if you look at a piece of legislation that the other legislator
01:11:35 --> 01:11:41 named Janelle Anyanornu worked on with me, it was trying to make sure that people
01:11:41 --> 01:11:45 who braid hair do not have to have a license to do that.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:50 Because you can't go to school to learn it, and it's not taught in any beauty school.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:54 So why make sure that these people have a license?
01:11:54 --> 01:11:58 All sorts of misconceptions came out during the hearings.
01:11:58 --> 01:12:03 But one thing about it is we got the legislation passed and signed by the governor.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:08 The other thing that passed was a Black Education Act that was here.
01:12:08 --> 01:12:13 And we were looking at what was happening with respect to Black students.
01:12:13 --> 01:12:18 We thought that the disciplinary actions were far higher based upon the percentage
01:12:18 --> 01:12:21 of Black people who were in school that should have been there.
01:12:21 --> 01:12:26 And so we need to have people to be more cognizant of conversations that you
01:12:26 --> 01:12:30 need to have with your students to understand what's happening and not always
01:12:30 --> 01:12:34 determine that disciplinary action is the way that it needs to go.
01:12:34 --> 01:12:40 So those are two big things that I look at that it was it took work,
01:12:40 --> 01:12:44 but we got people to understand that there was a cultural differences happening.
01:12:44 --> 01:12:49 That needed to be addressed. And it was. So it has been, it is a challenge,
01:12:49 --> 01:12:54 but I like the fact that this is a very diverse state because lots of these
01:12:54 --> 01:12:58 diverse pieces of legislation will come before the body.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:03 Yeah. When you talked about the African hair braiding, I remember when we were dealing with that.
01:13:04 --> 01:13:11 God. And so, you know, I served like 20 years ago. I served from 99 to 2008.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:14 And so when we were dealing with that you know
01:13:14 --> 01:13:18 it was the the bureau the board of cosmetology was
01:13:18 --> 01:13:21 the one saying oh they got to get a license and blah blah is the other it was
01:13:21 --> 01:13:25 like don't nobody y'all don't even know how to teach it how you gonna license
01:13:25 --> 01:13:29 somebody it took about three years for us to get that through but we we got
01:13:29 --> 01:13:33 it through so you know when i saw that you y'all were doing i said they still
01:13:33 --> 01:13:35 dealing with that in 2025 okay all right,
01:13:36 --> 01:13:39 It is what it is. But that's cool that y'all did that.
01:13:40 --> 01:13:47 All right. So let's talk about some of the work that you've been doing.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:52 So New Mexico just became the first U.S. state to offer free child care to all
01:13:52 --> 01:13:55 residents, regardless of income, through state vouchers.
01:13:55 --> 01:13:58 Now, this seems like it's got your fingerprints all over it,
01:13:58 --> 01:14:03 but explain how this will work. And do you think this would be a model for other states?
01:14:03 --> 01:14:08 It is going to be a model for other states. We are in, I guess,
01:14:08 --> 01:14:10 a formation stage right now.
01:14:10 --> 01:14:15 The way the provisions are set up, anybody, regardless of their income,
01:14:16 --> 01:14:22 can apply for this assistance so that you don't have to pay for any child care at all.
01:14:22 --> 01:14:27 And this is really important in a state that is about 45% of the population
01:14:27 --> 01:14:32 is comprised of people who are on Medicaid, which is low-income health insurance.
01:14:33 --> 01:14:39 So I think the biggest concern right now is why are we putting people or allowing
01:14:39 --> 01:14:43 people who can actually pay for child care also be a beneficiary of this?
01:14:43 --> 01:14:47 Maybe there was something else that could be done with that part of the money.
01:14:47 --> 01:14:50 But we'll see because it's something brand new, something that we're trying.
01:14:51 --> 01:14:56 And I think it will be a step in the right direction for other states to follow.
01:14:56 --> 01:15:01 But we are sort of like the pilot program, to put it in another way,
01:15:01 --> 01:15:03 to see how this will work out.
01:15:03 --> 01:15:07 I'm excited that we're the first ones to take this step because New Mexico is
01:15:07 --> 01:15:10 often last in everything in terms of statistics and data.
01:15:10 --> 01:15:13 But on this instance, we are coming out first.
01:15:14 --> 01:15:19 So I know that Mexico, like you said, is, you know, one of the states,
01:15:19 --> 01:15:24 it has a unique distinction is that it actually gets more money than the federal
01:15:24 --> 01:15:27 government than they actually pay in to taxes.
01:15:27 --> 01:15:32 So that would indicate that the state is kind of struggling economically.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:38 But a good percentage of the people in that state work for a living.
01:15:38 --> 01:15:45 And so was it was it kind of an outcry from the community to do that?
01:15:45 --> 01:15:50 Or did you and some other legislators just look at it and say, this makes sense?
01:15:51 --> 01:15:56 How did how did how did y'all decide we're going to do it first here in New Mexico?
01:15:57 --> 01:16:01 So one of the things that was happening, we have an organization,
01:16:01 --> 01:16:07 a governmental entity called CYFD, which is the Child Youth Family Division
01:16:07 --> 01:16:09 of our governmental entity here.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:15 And so there have been a lot of instances where people, where children had maybe
01:16:15 --> 01:16:19 died or been in a situation where they should not have been.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:26 And so this was a step to make sure that all children, no matter where or what
01:16:26 --> 01:16:31 their home situation was, would have access to universal child care.
01:16:31 --> 01:16:36 And in that universal child care, these are also supposed to be the first steps
01:16:36 --> 01:16:41 to help make sure that we're raising a reading level, for example, of our children.
01:16:41 --> 01:16:45 So by the third grade, they would all be reading at 100 percent of grade level.
01:16:45 --> 01:16:51 So this is a bigger, broader step of making sure that our children are ready
01:16:51 --> 01:16:54 to move forward and taking their communities to another level.
01:16:54 --> 01:16:56 So we're starting early.
01:16:56 --> 01:17:00 And it didn't, like I said, it didn't matter what your cultural background or
01:17:00 --> 01:17:03 what your zip code was or how much money your family had.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:08 We were bringing these, giving all these children the same opportunity to step
01:17:08 --> 01:17:11 at the same time to improve their lives.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:15 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's cool. I hope that it works out. And I do hope that
01:17:15 --> 01:17:20 the other 49 states, including the District of Columbia, jump in on that.
01:17:21 --> 01:17:25 You have been described as an advocate for justice, equality and improving access
01:17:25 --> 01:17:28 to behavioral health and maternal health care.
01:17:28 --> 01:17:33 Why did you zero in on those particular issues to make an impact in your state?
01:17:34 --> 01:17:40 So a couple of things that I'd like to share with you, and I think that my internet
01:17:40 --> 01:17:44 connection may be a little stable and I'm unstable. I hope I'm not freezing.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:49 One of the things that when I first came into the House of Representatives,
01:17:50 --> 01:17:54 there was a young boy by the name of Benny Hargrove who was killed on the grounds
01:17:54 --> 01:17:59 of his elementary school during a recess.
01:17:59 --> 01:18:03 And that school happened to be not very far from my law center.
01:18:03 --> 01:18:08 And what I learned later is that this little boy named Benny Hargrove wanted
01:18:08 --> 01:18:12 to try to be a Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
01:18:12 --> 01:18:17 Between two other boys who were having a difficult time getting along at school.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:24 Little did he know that one of the boys who was supposed to meet together at
01:18:24 --> 01:18:30 lunchtime brought his father's gun to school. And he shot and killed Benny Right
01:18:30 --> 01:18:32 there on the playground In front of lots of kids.
01:18:33 --> 01:18:37 So in terms of justice for our children, one of the things I wanted to make
01:18:37 --> 01:18:41 sure that happened is that people who can purchase a firearm,
01:18:42 --> 01:18:47 that you keep it stored away, away from a child or somebody who should not have access to it.
01:18:47 --> 01:18:52 So I wasn't saying that you couldn't have a gun or nor was I trying to keep
01:18:52 --> 01:18:53 people from having them.
01:18:53 --> 01:18:56 But I said, if you do, you store it safely.
01:18:56 --> 01:19:01 So we got that piece of gun storage safety legislation passed.
01:19:01 --> 01:19:07 And that was a huge issue because we live in a state, we're very rural around
01:19:07 --> 01:19:09 here. There are lots of guns.
01:19:09 --> 01:19:15 But one of the things that the law says right now is that anyone under 18 cannot purchase a firearm.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:20 And this little boy had access to it. So we've been working and pushing and
01:19:20 --> 01:19:23 trying to make sure that that is in place.
01:19:23 --> 01:19:27 But more importantly, we were also concerned about the children who saw this
01:19:27 --> 01:19:31 little boy die on the grounds of his elementary school.
01:19:31 --> 01:19:34 And so we looked at mental health rooms and.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:38 What would happen to our children who see incidents like that?
01:19:38 --> 01:19:42 Or what happened to in COVID when they're confined to only themselves and they
01:19:42 --> 01:19:46 don't really have their friends around them all the time to play with?
01:19:46 --> 01:19:49 And we found that this was a big issue across the board.
01:19:49 --> 01:19:56 And so I began to advocate for wellness rooms in every single school in New Mexico.
01:19:56 --> 01:20:05 Thus far been able to get about two and three quarters million dollars for these mental wellness rooms.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:09 That's not enough to supply every single school in New Mexico,
01:20:09 --> 01:20:11 but it's a start. And I continue to look at that.
01:20:11 --> 01:20:18 And so in terms of justice and safety, that is something that I have absolutely been fighting for.
01:20:18 --> 01:20:22 I was the one helping to take the lead on fair pay for women.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:26 And in New Mexico, that's a huge issue. We got that law passed also.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:33 And this is one of the few states where abortion care is absolutely available
01:20:33 --> 01:20:36 for women when they need it and when they want it.
01:20:36 --> 01:20:40 And lots of women from other states often come to New Mexico because you can
01:20:40 --> 01:20:45 get that care here. And then there's one other thing that I really like about
01:20:45 --> 01:20:50 what we are doing here is that we also take care and I fight for those individuals
01:20:50 --> 01:20:51 in our state that are aging.
01:20:51 --> 01:20:54 And we have an aging and long-term services division.
01:20:55 --> 01:21:00 And it's important that people know that if you take care of a relative who
01:21:00 --> 01:21:04 has Alzheimer's, for example, or dementia, and they can't really take care of themselves anymore.
01:21:04 --> 01:21:08 You can get paid for taking care of them, up to $1 a month.
01:21:08 --> 01:21:16 But also we want to let people know that if you are in a family where Alzheimer's could be prevalent.
01:21:16 --> 01:21:21 That there are tests that can be taken, and a lot of people don't know that,
01:21:21 --> 01:21:24 to determine if you have the amyloids in your body that are going to give you
01:21:24 --> 01:21:27 the propensity to have that later in life, so that you can prepare yourself.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:31 Sometimes you can change the food that you're going to eat, the way you're exercising,
01:21:31 --> 01:21:36 that could absolutely prolong your life in a good way.
01:21:36 --> 01:21:41 So those are just some of the things that I have been absolutely advocating
01:21:41 --> 01:21:46 for and for families, along with everything else that we've talked about today.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:52 So which legislation gave you the most satisfaction that you sponsored?
01:21:52 --> 01:21:58 The legislation with the most satisfaction was getting that Gun Safety Act passed.
01:21:58 --> 01:22:03 So Benny Hartgrove had younger kids, younger siblings, and it was really hard
01:22:03 --> 01:22:05 on that family when Benny died.
01:22:06 --> 01:22:09 And so Benny ended up, he had been living with his grandmother.
01:22:10 --> 01:22:13 So that family was in such, I
01:22:13 --> 01:22:18 guess, a state after he was killed that we needed to do something for him.
01:22:18 --> 01:22:23 And so the other thing that we did is to name a park after Benny Hargrove,
01:22:23 --> 01:22:26 which is located very close to the school where he was killed.
01:22:26 --> 01:22:30 And so, I've been making sure that I give money to Parks and Recreation Department
01:22:30 --> 01:22:33 to make that a very viable playground.
01:22:33 --> 01:22:37 And not only that, it was important to me to have something called a venture
01:22:37 --> 01:22:39 reflection in that park.
01:22:39 --> 01:22:43 So that if people are going to go do something, that you sit on that bench before
01:22:43 --> 01:22:48 you do it, particularly if it is going to cause the harm to yourself or to others,
01:22:48 --> 01:22:51 that you think carefully about what you're doing before you go in that direction.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:55 So I'm really happy that we got that park renamed after him.
01:22:55 --> 01:22:58 And that was not easy, Erik, I want you to know.
01:22:58 --> 01:23:03 And that was the most rewarding thing because it was good for the family.
01:23:03 --> 01:23:07 And that was most important. And for his grandmother, she said,
01:23:07 --> 01:23:10 please don't put the word memorial on that park anywhere.
01:23:10 --> 01:23:15 Benny was a young, viable elementary school student, and I want him to be remembered that way.
01:23:15 --> 01:23:21 So it's called the Benny Hargrove Park, and there is no word memorial in it anywhere. That's awesome.
01:23:21 --> 01:23:27 All right. So my last question, because I look at you and others that are serving
01:23:27 --> 01:23:33 now as role models for me, Because when I served.
01:23:34 --> 01:23:38 You know, there was political tension, but it wasn't anything like this.
01:23:39 --> 01:23:44 And, you know, so I think it's commendable that you and others are trying to
01:23:44 --> 01:23:47 do the right thing in this climate.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:54 What motivates you to keep pressing forward, even though this climate is very volatile?
01:23:55 --> 01:24:00 One of the things that I recognize in the work that I'm doing is that it doesn't
01:24:00 --> 01:24:02 matter whether you are a Democrat or a Republican.
01:24:03 --> 01:24:08 We all have to eat. We all need a place to live. We all need to have transportation.
01:24:08 --> 01:24:12 And so I think of it in that way. And that's what motivates me.
01:24:13 --> 01:24:15 I'm not doing something just because I'm a member of one party.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:19 I'm doing it because we, as people need to grow together.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:23 And I say, if we work together, we can accomplish many things together.
01:24:23 --> 01:24:25 And let me just give you one incident.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:28 So right now, there's an organization called Women in Government,
01:24:29 --> 01:24:30 and there are supposed to be
01:24:30 --> 01:24:35 two Republicans and two Democrats from every state to be a part of this.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:39 Well, one of the things that I worked for when I was tapped to be a part of
01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 Women in Government is to make sure that New Mexico had that, and we do.
01:24:42 --> 01:24:47 We now have two representatives from the Republican Party, two from the Democratic Party.
01:24:47 --> 01:24:53 And no matter how crazy things seem to appear, we tend to work together.
01:24:53 --> 01:24:57 And I think that we try to get the people around us to work together also,
01:24:57 --> 01:25:03 because like I said, when we lift up one person, we really lift up a whole community.
01:25:04 --> 01:25:10 Yeah. Well, that's cool that you insisted on that for, you know, representation.
01:25:10 --> 01:25:12 And like I said, you know.
01:25:13 --> 01:25:17 One of the things I used to tell people, you know, they say,
01:25:17 --> 01:25:18 yeah, look like I'll be fighting all the time.
01:25:19 --> 01:25:21 I said, no, the fights are what makes the news.
01:25:22 --> 01:25:25 Not 8% of the time we actually get along and agree on stuff.
01:25:26 --> 01:25:30 You don't you don't hear about that until, you know, the law goes into effect.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:35 But the only time you'll see us fighting is like, you know, that's that's what
01:25:35 --> 01:25:38 gets on the news. And that's that's a very small percentage.
01:25:38 --> 01:25:45 So, you know, I'm glad that you're involved with a group that's pushing for
01:25:45 --> 01:25:47 more cooperation and all that.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:52 So, Representative Pamelya Herndon, I just want to thank you for doing this.
01:25:52 --> 01:25:58 If people want to find out more about New Mexico, find out more about you and
01:25:58 --> 01:26:00 all that, how can they reach out to you?
01:26:01 --> 01:26:04 So there are a couple of things they can do. They can look on the New Mexico
01:26:04 --> 01:26:10 legislative website, and you can find me and telephone number and email on how to reach me.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:18 The legislative website is www.nmlegis.gov.
01:26:19 --> 01:26:26 You can also go to my nonprofit law center and find me, which is kwhlawcenter.org.
01:26:27 --> 01:26:31 That nonprofit work really goes a long way in trying to help individuals,
01:26:31 --> 01:26:37 particularly when they don't have access to an attorney. We work to make sure that they do have one.
01:26:37 --> 01:26:42 So those are two ways to find me. And I guarantee there's a telephone number there.
01:26:42 --> 01:26:47 My staff will always give me a message and I will always return a phone call or answer an email.
01:26:48 --> 01:26:53 Well, Representative Herndon, again, it's been an honor to talk to you and a pleasure.
01:26:54 --> 01:26:58 And one of the rules I have is that once you've been a guest,
01:26:58 --> 01:27:00 you have an open invitation to come back.
01:27:00 --> 01:27:02 So you don't even have to wait for me to ask you to come.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:06 You can just say, Erik, I need to talk to you about something and we'll get you on.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:09 So, again, I greatly appreciate this opportunity.
01:27:10 --> 01:27:14 Thank you. It's been my honor and my pleasure also. So keep up the good work
01:27:14 --> 01:27:18 that you're doing. And I am so happy to see that you're doing this podcast. Thank you, ma'am.
01:27:19 --> 01:27:23 All right, guys, and we're going to catch you all on the other side. Thank you.
01:27:33 --> 01:27:41 All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Michael Bedenbaugh and Representative
01:27:41 --> 01:27:43 Pamelya Herndon for coming on the show.
01:27:44 --> 01:27:47 As you can tell, my conversation with Representative Herndon,
01:27:47 --> 01:27:54 I was having a lot of flashbacks, a lot of good memories about serving the people.
01:27:55 --> 01:28:01 And I could relate to her, you know, just so much about, you know,
01:28:01 --> 01:28:05 motivation to serve and all that kind of stuff.
01:28:05 --> 01:28:12 And it sounds very similar backgrounds, as you could tell, as far as experience
01:28:12 --> 01:28:18 and how we ended up in our respective positions.
01:28:18 --> 01:28:21 And then Michael, very smart gentleman.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:30 And, you know, since I've spent now the overwhelming majority of my life in the South,
01:28:30 --> 01:28:38 to hear a white guy from the South talking about politics in an intelligent way is always cool.
01:28:38 --> 01:28:41 So it doesn't necessarily mean that we're going to agree on everything,
01:28:41 --> 01:28:44 but it's just all about the conversation.
01:28:45 --> 01:28:50 And as he stated, this is something that he's been working on for a decade.
01:28:51 --> 01:28:55 And he's one of those people to try to put his money where his mouth is because
01:28:55 --> 01:28:59 he actually ran for Congress with those ideas.
01:29:00 --> 01:29:06 I mean, he ran as independent, but he ran. And so I have to commend him for
01:29:06 --> 01:29:11 standing up for his principles enough where he was willing to put his name on a ballot. Right?
01:29:12 --> 01:29:16 But these are the kind of discussions that Reviving Our Republic, please get in.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:24 I'm a sucker for audible. I like listening, especially when the author is the
01:29:24 --> 01:29:26 one doing the narration.
01:29:27 --> 01:29:32 And so Michael's book, Reviving Our Republic, he's doing the narration for it.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:38 So, you know, if you wrote the book, you know where to put the emphasis on what
01:29:38 --> 01:29:42 sentence, what paragraph, what word to convey the message.
01:29:42 --> 01:29:45 So please go out and get that book.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:51 And, you know, he's got some pretty cool ideas, just like a lot of other people
01:29:51 --> 01:29:52 that I've had on that have.
01:29:53 --> 01:29:58 Like more recently, John Bonifaz with Free Speech for People,
01:29:58 --> 01:30:04 he's kind of like like along those lines as far as thinking about things and
01:30:04 --> 01:30:09 putting pen to paper and putting out there for people to look at and hopefully
01:30:09 --> 01:30:10 have discussions about.
01:30:10 --> 01:30:15 And who knows, you know, any one of those folks that I've had on,
01:30:15 --> 01:30:17 their ideas come to fruition.
01:30:17 --> 01:30:19 It is what it is, you know.
01:30:20 --> 01:30:26 That's what this democracy, this democratic republic, this constitutional republic,
01:30:27 --> 01:30:32 however you want to label it, that's what this experiment is supposed to be about, right?
01:30:32 --> 01:30:38 That we discuss things, that we try to make things better and more attainable for everybody,
01:30:38 --> 01:30:45 and to elect people like Representative Herndon, who actually gives a damn about
01:30:45 --> 01:30:49 the people that she represents and tries to do what needs to be done, right?
01:30:50 --> 01:30:52 It's very fascinating to be...
01:30:53 --> 01:30:58 You know, that district that she represents went from being a solid Republican
01:30:58 --> 01:31:00 district to now having a black representative.
01:31:01 --> 01:31:03 I just want y'all to think about that for a moment.
01:31:05 --> 01:31:14 You know, in a span of a decade, it went from a red district to being now one
01:31:14 --> 01:31:16 representative by an African-American.
01:31:17 --> 01:31:22 That's the epitome of what this nation is supposed to be about.
01:31:22 --> 01:31:27 Right. it because it obviously was not the black vote they got her over,
01:31:27 --> 01:31:35 you know, and she has been effective and is well-respected in the New Mexico
01:31:35 --> 01:31:37 legislature, very much so.
01:31:37 --> 01:31:42 So I'm just really honored that those two individuals decided to come on.
01:31:43 --> 01:31:47 I wanted to kind of talk a little bit about, as we close out,
01:31:48 --> 01:31:53 you know, now that the smoke is cleared and the government is back functioning.
01:31:54 --> 01:32:00 And I use the air quotes when I say functioning, right? But the shutdown is over.
01:32:01 --> 01:32:05 And so a lot of people, excuse me, on the Democratic side were very,
01:32:06 --> 01:32:10 very upset about the eight senators who voted to.
01:32:12 --> 01:32:16 Basically end the shutdown. And, you know, and,
01:32:16 --> 01:32:23 you know, now they're asking for Chuck Schumer's head because either he gave
01:32:23 --> 01:32:28 permission or he, you know, had a crack, whatever they're saying it is.
01:32:29 --> 01:32:34 You know, they're blaming him for those eight senators voting with the Republicans.
01:32:35 --> 01:32:40 And so I'm not, the only one I'm really, really harsh about is Fetterman,
01:32:41 --> 01:32:48 the senator from Pennsylvania, because he was voting against the shutdown from day one.
01:32:48 --> 01:32:53 Now, from a principal standpoint, he was consistent. He didn't want the government
01:32:53 --> 01:32:57 to shut down, and he voted accordingly. So he was one of the Democrats that
01:32:57 --> 01:33:01 was always voting with the Republicans on that deal from the jump.
01:33:01 --> 01:33:06 Three of the senators, because Angus King is not the Democratic,
01:33:06 --> 01:33:11 he's independent, just like Bernie Sanders, but Sanders and King vote with the Democrats.
01:33:11 --> 01:33:15 When they say caucus with, that's what they mean. They vote with the Democratic agenda.
01:33:17 --> 01:33:19 And, you know, but King and.
01:33:21 --> 01:33:27 The two, Shan and I think Cain, I think they were actually the three senators
01:33:27 --> 01:33:34 that were negotiating with the Republicans to try to work out something where the subsidies,
01:33:35 --> 01:33:39 the Obamacare subsidies would not run out at the end of the year.
01:33:39 --> 01:33:48 And I just think about when I was in public office, we had a big deal in Mississippi
01:33:48 --> 01:33:49 when we were dealing with the Ayers case.
01:33:50 --> 01:33:58 The heirs case was a lawsuit that was brought by a citizen on behalf of his
01:33:58 --> 01:34:03 son at the time, because his son was attending a school in Mississippi.
01:34:04 --> 01:34:11 And he was making the case that Mississippi higher education was not living
01:34:11 --> 01:34:14 up to the standard that was set in Brown versus the Board of Education.
01:34:16 --> 01:34:23 And that the historically black colleges were being underfunded and kind of
01:34:23 --> 01:34:28 being treated like stepchildren compared to Ole Miss, Mississippi State, or even USM, right?
01:34:28 --> 01:34:36 And so that case went for almost three decades before the settlement happened.
01:34:36 --> 01:34:40 So one of the plaintiffs that had joined on with Mr.
01:34:40 --> 01:34:47 Ayers was Benny Thompson, who is, many of you know him as the chair of the January
01:34:47 --> 01:34:52 6th committee, and he's been a political figure for a long time.
01:34:53 --> 01:34:58 He was a student at the time he joined on the case. I think he was doing his
01:34:58 --> 01:35:01 grad studies at Jackson State.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:07 And so he basically was the last man standing after 30 years.
01:35:08 --> 01:35:11 As far as a plaintiff in that case.
01:35:11 --> 01:35:15 And so with his position, being a U.S.
01:35:15 --> 01:35:22 Congressman, he got with the attorney general and the head of IHL in Mississippi
01:35:22 --> 01:35:28 at that time and worked out a settlement. And it was like a billion-dollar settlement.
01:35:30 --> 01:35:33 And the one thing that kind of disturbed us as members,
01:35:33 --> 01:35:36 especially the black members of the legislature, the black caucus,
01:35:36 --> 01:35:42 was there was a picture after they announced that a settlement had been reached
01:35:42 --> 01:35:50 with the attorney general and the IHL guy literally high-fiving in the Capitol building.
01:35:50 --> 01:35:54 And that was the picture right above the headline.
01:35:55 --> 01:36:01 And so in our mindset, it's like if they're high-fiving and they just gave up
01:36:01 --> 01:36:04 a billion dollars, we probably could have got some more.
01:36:04 --> 01:36:08 That was kind of our mindset, right? It's like, why would we just settle for
01:36:08 --> 01:36:11 a billion? They're happy with a billion. You know what I'm saying?
01:36:12 --> 01:36:18 So the congressman agreed to meet with us. And, you know, we kind of had this
01:36:18 --> 01:36:20 mindset, man, you shouldn't have done this and da-da-da-da.
01:36:20 --> 01:36:25 So he basically explained what he was, you know, where his mindset was and,
01:36:25 --> 01:36:29 you know, what we were getting out of the deal and this, that and the other.
01:36:29 --> 01:36:32 And we were kind of like, well, you know, we don't trust these white folks.
01:36:32 --> 01:36:34 And, you know, we were just having a conversation.
01:36:34 --> 01:36:42 And so this whole thing with the shutdown reminded me of that moment where those
01:36:42 --> 01:36:44 of us who attended black colleges,
01:36:44 --> 01:36:48 especially black colleges in Mississippi, we were kind of like the activists
01:36:48 --> 01:36:52 in the Democratic Party are now. We were not happy.
01:36:52 --> 01:36:57 We didn't think that the settlement went far enough. We felt like we could have
01:36:57 --> 01:36:59 held out or demanded more.
01:36:59 --> 01:37:05 I mean, our attitude was we waited 27 years, could have kept fighting.
01:37:06 --> 01:37:11 But, you know, at some point, we had to get to an agreement.
01:37:11 --> 01:37:16 27 years of litigation and negotiation had to come to an end at some point.
01:37:17 --> 01:37:21 And, you know, the congressman just basically said this was the best deal we could get.
01:37:22 --> 01:37:28 And so I'm sure that the senators that were assigned to negotiate with the Republicans
01:37:28 --> 01:37:33 probably reported to Chuck Schumer and said, this is the best we can do.
01:37:34 --> 01:37:39 We have to take their word for it. I know their word isn't worth much in this
01:37:39 --> 01:37:41 building. That's where we are.
01:37:42 --> 01:37:48 And so, you know, the nickname for the eight senators now is called the safe
01:37:48 --> 01:37:51 eight because two of them are not running for reelection.
01:37:52 --> 01:37:57 And the other six, well, let's take Fetterman out of the equation.
01:37:58 --> 01:38:04 The other five are not up for election either until 28 or 30.
01:38:04 --> 01:38:13 So they won't get hit with this next year in 2026 and that midterm election cycle.
01:38:14 --> 01:38:17 So that's how now they've got the nickname the Safe Eight. Now,
01:38:18 --> 01:38:20 Fetterman is not going to be safe regardless of when he runs.
01:38:20 --> 01:38:26 I think this is it for him. I think the Democratic Party in Pennsylvania are
01:38:26 --> 01:38:29 trying to narrow down who they're going to run against them.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:37 And it's probably best for him as well as the people in Pennsylvania for him not to be in anymore.
01:38:38 --> 01:38:42 He just had, as I'm recording this, he just had another health episode.
01:38:42 --> 01:38:45 He had a stroke when he was running for the office.
01:38:46 --> 01:38:52 So, you know, it might be best for him just to let that go.
01:38:54 --> 01:38:59 From a personal standpoint, from a political standpoint, I mean,
01:39:00 --> 01:39:07 He can either, he's more valuable as an independent or as a Republican based
01:39:07 --> 01:39:09 on the way he's been voting on certain things.
01:39:10 --> 01:39:17 Now, he's been better than Sinema, I guess, as far as voting along with the Democrats.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:22 But, you know, it's like these key moments.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:29 He tends to not be on the Democrat side. So, so I'm not counting him in that,
01:39:29 --> 01:39:34 but he is part of the nickname, the safe eight, since he was one of the eight
01:39:34 --> 01:39:36 that voted to end the shutdown.
01:39:37 --> 01:39:43 So I'm not really as hard on them as everybody else.
01:39:43 --> 01:39:47 I would have been one of the senators holding out.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:51 And I probably wouldn't have been one of the senators sent to negotiate.
01:39:52 --> 01:39:56 You know, I think there were some other senators that wanted to do it,
01:39:57 --> 01:40:02 that wanted because, you know, all of them were getting calls from their constituents.
01:40:03 --> 01:40:10 The president of the of one of the unions, I think AFGE, was really saying,
01:40:10 --> 01:40:13 hey, my people need to get some checks.
01:40:13 --> 01:40:19 We need to end the shutdown. You know, and at least that's what Senator Durbin
01:40:19 --> 01:40:24 said was his main influence was the president AFGE, who's a brother, by the way.
01:40:24 --> 01:40:28 And he got on national TV and said, yeah, they needed to end the shutdown yesterday.
01:40:28 --> 01:40:35 So, you know, he said, that's the position of my people. And he's got to represent his union. Right.
01:40:36 --> 01:40:39 So, you know, I get where he's coming from.
01:40:40 --> 01:40:47 But, yeah, it was, you know, a lot of the senators were feeling the pain of
01:40:47 --> 01:40:51 their constituents, especially once the president decided, yeah,
01:40:51 --> 01:40:52 we're going to cut off the SNAP money.
01:40:53 --> 01:40:56 You know, he's willing to go to the Supreme Court. And that's the other thing, too.
01:40:56 --> 01:41:04 So now there's some people that are jumping on Justice Jackson for putting a
01:41:04 --> 01:41:10 stay on on distributing the benefits.
01:41:11 --> 01:41:16 So, you know, Justice Jackson was looking at it strictly from a judicial review
01:41:16 --> 01:41:22 standpoint, said the Court of Appeals is about to make a decision on this.
01:41:22 --> 01:41:25 Don't need to jump the shark with them.
01:41:27 --> 01:41:30 And probably knowing that she was going to vote to say give him the money.
01:41:31 --> 01:41:37 She wanted to be fair, and she just accepted, you know, and just said let's
01:41:37 --> 01:41:40 put a stay on it until the Court of Appeals makes the decision.
01:41:42 --> 01:41:46 So I definitely don't blame her for that at all.
01:41:46 --> 01:41:49 She was doing the judicially prudent thing to do,
01:41:49 --> 01:41:58 Because if she had gone ahead and made the ruling without the Court of Appeals
01:41:58 --> 01:42:02 even making the decision, and then the Court of Appeals came back and said, well,
01:42:03 --> 01:42:07 yeah, that's not the way we were going with that.
01:42:08 --> 01:42:11 That would have been more chaotic than normal.
01:42:11 --> 01:42:18 So, you know, I know it's frustrating at times, but that's why I always say
01:42:18 --> 01:42:22 that there's a difference between those of us who are activists and those of us who are elected.
01:42:23 --> 01:42:30 Because elected officials have rules and have certain boundaries.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:35 And one of those boundaries is we have to look out for the welfare of our constituents.
01:42:36 --> 01:42:42 And no matter how strident a position we have, we don't want to be responsible
01:42:42 --> 01:42:48 for any injury to happen to our folks while we're trying to make a point or
01:42:48 --> 01:42:50 we're trying to take a stand, right?
01:42:52 --> 01:42:55 Because, you know, we're not commanders in a war.
01:42:56 --> 01:43:02 We're, you know, we're elected officials. So we have to, even if we don't agree
01:43:02 --> 01:43:07 with some of our colleagues doing what they do, we have a forum to interact with them.
01:43:08 --> 01:43:14 But we have to look at not only short term, but long term.
01:43:14 --> 01:43:19 And if we're at a point where the person we're negotiating with doesn't care
01:43:19 --> 01:43:22 if people eat, doesn't care if people get paid,
01:43:23 --> 01:43:30 doesn't care if air travel is not 100% safe or close to, you know,
01:43:30 --> 01:43:31 you've got to weigh that in.
01:43:32 --> 01:43:36 If you've got somebody that you want to negotiate with and they're not coming to the table.
01:43:37 --> 01:43:46 You know, it is what it is. And, you know, it just, but it better prepares you for the next showdown.
01:43:46 --> 01:43:50 Because if you know that the person you're dealing with has no empathy,
01:43:51 --> 01:43:56 you go into that negotiation understanding that and knowing that a strategy
01:43:56 --> 01:43:59 that deals with empathy would not work. Right?
01:44:00 --> 01:44:10 So the only thing that would really impact our president or his people is you've
01:44:10 --> 01:44:11 got to cut off something he values.
01:44:12 --> 01:44:17 So the next time we get into a situation, you know, when I say we,
01:44:17 --> 01:44:20 I'm talking about the senators and stuff, the Democrats.
01:44:21 --> 01:44:24 You just got to hit him where it would hurt him. You got to cut off his money.
01:44:25 --> 01:44:30 Cut off his money, you know, then. he'll come to the table.
01:44:31 --> 01:44:35 If you talk about, well, you know, folks in my district are going to starve, he doesn't care.
01:44:36 --> 01:44:40 Folks in my district are going to be out of a job or they're going to be working
01:44:40 --> 01:44:41 without money, doesn't care.
01:44:42 --> 01:44:46 But if you cut his money off, I don't know if it's dealing with legislation,
01:44:46 --> 01:44:52 dealing with crypto or whatever you can do, you know, cut them off.
01:44:52 --> 01:44:54 Now, the Republicans kind of.
01:44:55 --> 01:45:00 Showed a little rebellion to him when he started going on the rant about,
01:45:01 --> 01:45:04 well, you got to use the nuclear option. You got to end the filibuster.
01:45:04 --> 01:45:09 And they basically said no, because they're looking at 2026.
01:45:09 --> 01:45:14 And they're like, if the trend is going the way it's going, we're going to be in the minority.
01:45:15 --> 01:45:19 And if we don't have this tool to try to slow the Democrats down,
01:45:19 --> 01:45:22 you're going to have a problem, right?
01:45:22 --> 01:45:30 So I'm sure they convey that to him some kind of way, whether it's verbally or by text or whatever.
01:45:31 --> 01:45:35 But they sent a message like, okay, Mr. President, we get you.
01:45:36 --> 01:45:40 So they have the capacity to say no to him.
01:45:41 --> 01:45:45 They showed that during this shutdown, at least some Republicans.
01:45:45 --> 01:45:47 They have the capacity to tell him, no, Mr.
01:45:47 --> 01:45:53 President, it's not a good idea, which, you know, kind of, you had more people
01:45:53 --> 01:45:54 doing that his first go around.
01:45:55 --> 01:45:59 And that's why he didn't do as much damage as he is currently doing now,
01:45:59 --> 01:46:03 because he had people all around him telling him, no, you can't do that.
01:46:04 --> 01:46:08 So now it's just a select few people. Up until the shutdown,
01:46:08 --> 01:46:09 we didn't think it was anybody.
01:46:10 --> 01:46:15 But now we're seeing, you know, this whole about the releasing of the Epstein files.
01:46:16 --> 01:46:19 We're seeing some Republicans saying, yeah, you probably need to release them.
01:46:20 --> 01:46:24 If you're telling me, you're telling the whole nation, you ain't got nothing
01:46:24 --> 01:46:29 to hide, then why are you telling all of us on your side of the aisle not to
01:46:29 --> 01:46:31 vote to release him? You know?
01:46:33 --> 01:46:37 So, you know, they tried to, they grabbed one congresswoman,
01:46:37 --> 01:46:41 I think it was Bober, they took her down to the situation room to talk to her. Really?
01:46:42 --> 01:46:44 You going to negotiate with her in the situation room?
01:46:46 --> 01:46:50 You couldn't find another skiff to have the discussion? I mean,
01:46:50 --> 01:46:52 the White House is basically a skiff if you want it to be.
01:46:54 --> 01:46:58 Just the old office used to be where they used to have the high-powered discussions.
01:46:58 --> 01:47:00 The president is talking to you directly.
01:47:01 --> 01:47:05 He took her to the situation room. Man, that's going to take you down to the
01:47:05 --> 01:47:06 basement. You know what I'm saying?
01:47:08 --> 01:47:14 I'm just, you know, that's why we call him the Don, for real. The mob stuff.
01:47:15 --> 01:47:19 That's mob stuff. I'm going to put you in this room so we can convince you to
01:47:19 --> 01:47:21 change your ways. You know what I'm saying?
01:47:22 --> 01:47:26 It's a mess. It's really a mess.
01:47:26 --> 01:47:30 And like I told Representative Herndon, I commend her and everybody else that's
01:47:30 --> 01:47:37 elected during this time for serving in this craziness, right? Right.
01:47:38 --> 01:47:45 Yeah, I'm not as critical of the senators because been there,
01:47:45 --> 01:47:53 done that, you know, you're not happy, but it's like on to the next fight, right?
01:47:53 --> 01:48:00 You know, I mean, if the president, if the Republicans renege on their commitment
01:48:00 --> 01:48:07 to voting on the Obamacare subsidies, they'll pay for it in 26th.
01:48:08 --> 01:48:12 Because everybody's going to be paying that higher health care premium, right?
01:48:13 --> 01:48:18 You know, but it would have been worse for the Democrats if we had gone two,
01:48:19 --> 01:48:21 three months with people not getting food stamps.
01:48:22 --> 01:48:30 So, you know, I mean, you saw what an incredible burden it was for churches
01:48:30 --> 01:48:32 and food banks to try to make up the difference.
01:48:33 --> 01:48:37 And we did see some incredible acts of benevolence.
01:48:39 --> 01:48:44 And McKenzie Scott may have been called in to rescue folks along with a couple
01:48:44 --> 01:48:48 of other billionaires if it had protracted longer than it did.
01:48:48 --> 01:48:56 But the reality is that, you know, if you're in a position where you got a way out,
01:48:57 --> 01:49:02 do I want my people that I'm fighting for to suffer in the meantime,
01:49:03 --> 01:49:04 you got to make that call.
01:49:04 --> 01:49:09 It's no different than the Montgomery bus boycott no different than any other
01:49:09 --> 01:49:11 protest that's out there.
01:49:11 --> 01:49:16 You know, if you're going to be committed to a fight, you know,
01:49:16 --> 01:49:19 the determination is how long can you hold out?
01:49:20 --> 01:49:25 You know, when the unions go on strike, how much money do they have in the strike
01:49:25 --> 01:49:31 fund to make sure that the union members are able to take care of their families
01:49:31 --> 01:49:34 while they're trying to fight for better wages or better health care?
01:49:35 --> 01:49:43 It's all calculated risk. And, you know, for those who are activists,
01:49:43 --> 01:49:44 you're not wrong for protesting.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:49 You're not wrong for expressing your thoughts. You're not wrong for being vocal
01:49:49 --> 01:49:52 about your disappointment when the fight's over.
01:49:53 --> 01:49:56 Because you always want more. You know what I'm saying?
01:49:57 --> 01:50:06 Again, as a sports fan, the Bears or the Bulls score last-minute points.
01:50:07 --> 01:50:10 Cubs or the White Sox win a game in the ninth inning at the last at-bat.
01:50:11 --> 01:50:14 Okay, we won. You know what I'm saying?
01:50:15 --> 01:50:18 Would I have liked to have a comfortable margin every game? Yes.
01:50:19 --> 01:50:22 But there are some games where you're going to have to fight to the end.
01:50:23 --> 01:50:26 It's not going to be an ideal situation every time.
01:50:26 --> 01:50:39 So, you know, I think that the American people have been exposed to the truth about the Republicans,
01:50:39 --> 01:50:45 and I think they've kind of made up their mind how they feel about it,
01:50:45 --> 01:50:49 because you saw those elections that just recently happened and the results.
01:50:49 --> 01:50:55 And I think that's going to carry over in 26, barring something crazy that the
01:50:55 --> 01:50:58 Democrats do between now and then. Right.
01:50:59 --> 01:51:04 But as long as the Democrats keep fighting for issues and keep addressing issues
01:51:04 --> 01:51:08 that people care about, that they can relate to, like Tesla and Ford.
01:51:09 --> 01:51:14 I don't want to butcher her name, but Tesla, you know, was on CNN and she was
01:51:14 --> 01:51:20 saying, you know, it's like the Epstein files are fine.
01:51:20 --> 01:51:25 If you want to expose pedophiles, it's fine. But people in our community are trying to work.
01:51:25 --> 01:51:29 People in our community are trying to eat. People in our community want safe
01:51:29 --> 01:51:36 streets, better education, ability to get the house of their dreams. Right.
01:51:38 --> 01:51:44 So how are you going to handle that? You know, and that's where the Democrats
01:51:44 --> 01:51:50 need to focus their energy on, to be just as passionate about those issues.
01:51:51 --> 01:51:53 And as long as the king, that's why Mom Donnie won.
01:51:53 --> 01:51:57 That's why Spanberger won. That's why Cheryl won.
01:51:57 --> 01:52:00 Because in their respective elections, in their respective communities,
01:52:00 --> 01:52:04 they addressed the issues that the people in those communities cared about.
01:52:04 --> 01:52:09 And they believe, the citizens believe that they were the candidates that were
01:52:09 --> 01:52:13 going to carry that out if they were elected. And so they voted for them. Right.
01:52:14 --> 01:52:16 And that's really how this works.
01:52:16 --> 01:52:21 You've got to vote for the people that you believe are going to make our lives,
01:52:22 --> 01:52:26 our lives, not just my individual life, our collective lives,
01:52:26 --> 01:52:30 our community, our state, our nation better. Right.
01:52:31 --> 01:52:37 So, you know, and at times the people that we elect will disappoint us.
01:52:37 --> 01:52:43 You know, I've been on both sides of that coin. Right? But.
01:52:44 --> 01:52:52 If the overall record, if the overall effort is made to do the right thing,
01:52:52 --> 01:52:55 then those people should get support.
01:52:55 --> 01:52:58 And when the people are tired of that particular individual,
01:52:59 --> 01:53:03 they move on to somebody else. That's how the process works.
01:53:03 --> 01:53:08 You don't try to create a war. You try to create an emergency situation to stay in office.
01:53:09 --> 01:53:11 You accept the will of the people.
01:53:11 --> 01:53:17 And you keep it moving because that's how we've been rolling for the last 249 years.
01:53:18 --> 01:53:25 So I know a lot of y'all that are listening are not happy with the way that
01:53:25 --> 01:53:33 the shutdown ended, but I just want you to understand that in the long term, in my opinion,
01:53:34 --> 01:53:35 we're going to be okay.
01:53:36 --> 01:53:40 I just need y'all to stay engaged. I just need y'all to continue voting.
01:53:40 --> 01:53:44 In several places. There's still runoff elections going on.
01:53:44 --> 01:53:50 The same energy you had for election day, first Tuesday of November.
01:53:50 --> 01:53:55 And whenever those runoffs happen, I need y'all to go back and pick the candidate.
01:53:55 --> 01:54:00 If the candidate you want made it to the runoff, but they weren't ahead,
01:54:01 --> 01:54:05 y'all got to show back up if that's who you want to be in those positions.
01:54:05 --> 01:54:07 Right? You got to do that.
01:54:09 --> 01:54:15 I have a vested interest in the mayor of Sandy Springs. I want Mr. Carter to be the mayor.
01:54:15 --> 01:54:21 I understand talking to Representative Herndon. There's a runoff election in Albuquerque.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:26 Y'all folks need to go out and vote for the candidates you want.
01:54:26 --> 01:54:29 If you want to keep the current mayor, y'all got to show back up. Right?
01:54:30 --> 01:54:34 I mean, that's how it works. So if there's a runoff election,
01:54:34 --> 01:54:37 there's a runoff election in District 26.
01:54:40 --> 01:54:44 In Jackson to replace Senator Horn, who's now the mayor there.
01:54:45 --> 01:54:49 Y'all need to get out and support the candidate you believe is going to be the
01:54:49 --> 01:54:51 best one to do that, right?
01:54:52 --> 01:54:55 I just think that we're going to be okay.
01:54:56 --> 01:55:02 We're going to be okay. We just need, well, I'm asking you to stay engaged.
01:55:02 --> 01:55:08 Changed no matter how crazy it is no matter what you see on social media all
01:55:08 --> 01:55:14 that i just need y'all to be focused and we'll get through this you know together
01:55:14 --> 01:55:19 we'll get through this all right guys that's all i got until next time.