Rethinking Sharia & Keeping It Real Featuring Intisar Rabb and Maya Rupert

[00:00:00] Welcome, I'm Erik Fleming host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time. I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast. If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things. First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash a moment with Erik Fleming. Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak truth to power and to expand and improve the show.

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[00:02:02] Hello, welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming. So today, I have two incredible guests, Intisar Robb and Maya Rupert.

[00:02:20] Intisar was one of the contributors of America Unfinished, the series of essays that I have had the privilege of bringing some of the authors on the podcast. That was produced by a lot of professors at Harvard Law School. Miss Robb is an expert on Islamic law.

[00:02:47] And so we're going to talk about the impact Sharia law has had in American history and why we should not be afraid of it. Right. And then Miss Maya is coming on. She has written a book called The Real Ones. And she is definitely a real one herself.

[00:03:10] But the book is about how African Americans view authenticity. The nuances and the challenges that we deal with, with that term authenticity. Authenticity. Anyway, authenticity. Yeah, it's going to be one of them days. No, but I hope y'all enjoy the interviews.

[00:03:39] They were they were great. So I have some mixed news from the Black Podcaster Awards. I believe I mentioned it. But if I hadn't, I believe I did, though, that the podcast had a chance to be nominated twice.

[00:04:06] One for best cover art and one for best news and political podcast. This year. And so. The cover art. We were put on a ballot. Between there were two ballots, actually, it was a VIP category. So those folks who have been nominated kind of like the academies. Right.

[00:04:35] Those who have been nominated won awards and all that stuff got to vote on best cover art. And then. The general public got to vote on best cover art. And so. So. I'm on with Eric Fleming. Our cover art made the ballot. We did not get enough votes to. Become a nominee. But. That was an honor.

[00:05:01] And that was something very personal to me because I designed the cover. And. You know, I was a work in progress for a number of years. Those of you who have followed the podcast all the way through. Have seen variations and different iterations of of the cover art. Until I got this product that we have now that I really, really like. And.

[00:05:29] You know, and just the concept, all that stuff. So it was really cool that. That was recognized enough, at least to get on the ballot. So six of us that. We're on a ballot and. I think only two or three. I think three were picked. Right. Three had the highest votes.

[00:05:55] So, you know, but that's OK about that, you know, because it's like. Since I don't have like that Joe Rogan type following. You know, it was it was going to be hit or miss on the votes anyway. You know, I told all my friends and all that stuff. So. You know, it's just a matter who voted. You only had a week to vote. So. I'm just honored that it was even considered.

[00:06:23] And that was very, very validating to me. The other thing. The other nomination. We got. So for the third time, ladies and gentlemen. I'm on with Eric Fleming has been nominated as. Best black news and political podcast. So this is. Awesome.

[00:06:50] And, you know, I have reconciled the fact that. Just to be nominated for a third time. By the same people. Basically is is a is an incredible feat. Um. And it just shows that. The work that's being put in and the guests. That I've been privileged to have. You know. Are resonating.

[00:07:22] And I haven't reached out to the. Because we can only send like a snippet. Of what we did. And I haven't reached out to the person yet who. Uh. Who snippet I used. But I'll let them know. And thank them. Because that snippet was good enough. To get me nominated. Um. But yeah. This is an incredible honor. And. You know. I want to thank. You know.

[00:07:51] All the people who have helped me. Get guests. Uh. Grace for doing the news. Um. And then all of you all. Who have been listening. And supporting the podcast. Offering me feedback. Uh. Encouraging. Me to keep going. Even when. Things. Have been adjusted. Or crazy. Uh. Whether it's personal. Or. You know. Job related. Or whatever.

[00:08:21] Uh. We've been still going since 2019. And. Uh. I'm just really. Really blessed. That we're at this point. Uh. Hopefully we'll win. We'll know by the end of the month. Uh. But if we don't. Again. It's an honor and privilege. And I. And I encourage you all. To support the Black Podcasting Awards. And those shows. Who have been nominated.

[00:08:51] Uh. Because there are so many categories. And that's really. Awesome. That there are so many different topics out there. That people can listen. To folks. Who are experts. Listen to folks. That'll make you laugh. You know. People that teach history. And all that. I mean. It's an incredible array of talent. That's out there. And the scary thing. Of all that. Is that we only make up.

[00:09:20] Two percent. Of all the podcasters. That exist. Just Black podcasters. Only make up two percent. So. Um. Yeah. It's just. It's just an incredible. Incredible. Incredible. Feet. To be nominated again. And I just encourage. All of you all listening. To support those folks. That are. That are out there doing. The same thing I'm doing. Even if it's not. Political. Right.

[00:09:51] Uh. We gotta stay with each other. We gotta hang with each other. Um. So. All right. That's all the housekeeping. I have for now. Um. Um. Well. You know. If you want to. Continue to show support. Other than listening. Go to www.momenteric.com. And. Donate. One time. Um.

[00:10:21] You know. Sign up for. Monthly subscription. It's only a dollar. The minimum. If you want to. Give more. We have levels. To do that. And. You might get a little gift. Or something. If you do that. But. If you. If you. If you just do a dollar a month. Uh. That will help. The podcast. Tremendously. As I like to say. All right. Having done all that. Let's go ahead and get the show started.

[00:10:51] And as always. We kick it off with a moment of news. With Grace G. Thanks Eric. A news helicopter covering a fatal bus collision crashed in Los Angeles. Killing the pilot. An NBC photo journalist. And a bystander on the ground. President Trump banned CNN. MS Now. And Politico from the White House. Over alleged biased reporting.

[00:11:21] Prompting concerns over First Amendment violations. And potential legal challenges. The Federal Reserve raised interest rates. To combat persistent inflation. Fueled by global tariffs. Energy shocks. And artificial intelligent investments. The U.S. Senate rejected a Trump-backed cryptocurrency bill. After it did not reach the 60-vote threshold needed to advance. President Trump signed legislation. Imposing sweeping new sanctions on Russia's energy. Defense. And maritime sectors.

[00:11:51] To cut off funding for its war in Ukraine. A federal appeals court struck down a Trump administration policy. That allowed the rapid deportation of migrants. To third-party countries. Without assessing safety risks. A federal judge overturned a policy. Cutting diversity, equity and inclusion grants. Ruling that the Department of Education. Failed to provide clear evaluation criteria. Or assess the impact of the cuts. A suspended U.S. immigration agent. Pleaded not guilty to federal charges.

[00:12:21] Of lying to the FBI. About being attacked. Before shooting a man. During a deportation operation. In Minneapolis. A Minnesota man was sentenced. To 14 months in federal prison. For assaulting U.S. Representative. Ilhan Omar. With vinegar over political differences. A federal judge ordered. The Trump administration. To give 30 days notice. Before attempting to demolish. The Kennedy Center. Which recently closed. For a multi-million dollar renovation. The family of late conservative activist.

[00:12:51] Charlie Kirk. Notified Utah Valley University. Of their intent to sue. Over his fatal shooting. Citing inadequate campus security. And. Pennsylvania reported. 731 measles cases. As health officials. Intensified vaccination efforts. I am Grace Gee. And this has been. A Moment of News. All right. Thank you Grace.

[00:13:21] For that moment of news. Now it's time for my guest. Intisar Rob. Intisar Robb Is a professor of law. A professor of history. And the faculty director. Of the program. In Islamic law. At Harvard Law School. She has held appointments. As a Susan S. And Kenneth L. Wallach professor. At the Radcliffe Institute. For advanced study. As an associate professor. At NYU Department of Middle Eastern.

[00:13:52] And Islamic studies. And at NYU Law School. And as an associate. Assistant professor. At Boston College Law School. She previously served. As a law clerk. For Judge Thomas L. Ambro. Of the United States. Courts of Appeals. For the Third Circuit. As a Temple Bar fellow. In London. With the American Inns. Of Court. And as a Carnegie scholar. For her work. On contemporary Islamic law.

[00:14:21] In 2015. In partnership. With the Berkman Klein Center. For Internet. And Society. Support from the Luce. And MacArthur Foundations. In collaborations. With myriad scholars. And institutions. She launched. Sharia Source. An online portal. Designed to provide. Universal access. To the world's information. On Islamic law. And history. And to facilitate. New research. With the use of data. And AI tools. She is a contributor.

[00:14:51] To the book. America Unfinished. 250 Years of Law and Governance. An essay collection. From Harvard Law School faculty. Ladies and gentlemen. It is my distinct honor. And privilege. To have as a guest. On this podcast. Intisar Robb. All right.

[00:15:20] Professor Intisar Robb. How you doing sister? You doing good? I'm doing well. How are you? I'm doing great. Especially now that I've got somebody. As notable as you. Well. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. I'm doing good. I done moved up in the world. I'm getting all these Harvard Law professors now. I feel like I'm like. One of them real talk shows. You know what I'm saying? Just getting all these smart people. But I always tell people. Most. All the guests that I have on are smarter than me.

[00:15:49] So I'm really humbled that you accepted the invitation. Happy to join you in the constellation. Yes ma'am. All right. So what I normally do. To kind of kick everything off. Is I do a couple of icebreakers. So the first icebreaker. Is a quote I want you to respond to. And the quote is. The end of law. Is not to abolish. Or restrain. But to preserve. And enlarge freedom.

[00:16:19] That's a powerful quote. And I think. I think ultimately. I would agree with it. I would add freedom. And justice. I think justice is a part of freedom. We always say. In teaching law. That laws. It's nothing static. It's an argument. About. How do we get to more justice. More freedom. More. Fairness. And. If we had all of those things. We wouldn't need law. So yes. The end of law.

[00:16:49] Would be achieving those ideals. Yes ma'am. All right. So now the next. Icebreaker. Is what I call 20 questions. Okay. So I need you to give me a number. Between one and 20. How about seven. Okay. What do you consider. The best way. To stay informed. About politics. Current events. Health. Etc. I think. That we live in a.

[00:17:19] Social media world. But that may not be the best way. To stay actually informed. I think it's more. Relationally. I read a lot. And I take suggestions from. Kind of. I might call it. Lateral. Or longitudinal. And vertical. Colleagues. That might be. You know. Professors along with me. Friends. That are. My age. Working in the profession. Professional world. As well as young people. I think young people.

[00:17:49] Often have their fingers. On the pulse. Of what's going on. So I consult a lot. With my. Students. My nieces and nephews. And the like. So. I think it's. It has to do with. A lot of reading. And a lot of. Relational consulting. Yeah. What fascinated you. About law. That led. To your journey. Into practicing. And teaching it. I grew up. In Washington. D.C. At a time. When it was. The murder. Capital of the world. In the.

[00:18:18] 80s. Early. 90s. And. I saw. In this. You know. Washington. D.C. Is tiny. It's. You know. Less than 10 square miles. It was. It was a perfect. 10 square miles. And then. Virginia took back. A portion. Of. Of its land. So less than 10 square miles. You have. The White House. The seat of government. The majestic. Supreme Court. The Capitol building. And this pristine. Northwest. D.C. And then. On the other side of town. In southeast. Where I was.

[00:18:48] Dilapidated roads. It was. There was. You know. Drug culture. Was. Rampant. Drugs. Flooded into the city. How do you have such a small. Environment. In the nation's capital. And even that. You can't. You know. You don't see that laws. Or policies. I didn't know. Exactly what it was. As a young person. Growing up. But something about. Institutions. Of law. And. And of policy. Said to me. That something was broken. That. That you can't even.

[00:19:19] Have a guarantee. Of. Of a good life. For everyone. In. Even so small a place. That is the nation's capital. And so that really. Stuck with me. And made me want to. You know. Pursue doggedly. And I still am. You know. What the solutions are. To those. Inequities. Fundamental inequities. Yeah. In 2021. You said. When I went to law school. Two decades ago. We had to go to the basement. And shepherd eyes.

[00:19:48] To go into every book. And see if a particular case. Is still current. No law student knows. How to do that anymore. Because the computers. Do it for them. To get a whole history. Of the case. And every subsequent. Court. That cited it. That only happened. In two decades. And I think the same. Is coming for Islamic law. So my question. Out of that is. Was that your mindset. When you launched. Sierra. Sierra source. Five years ago. Uh.

[00:20:18] Yes. It very much was. I. Uh. And. Now the world. Has changed again. In five years. Right. With the rise of. AI. Uh. Uh. And. I don't even know. That people know. What. You know. What it is. To log on to Westlaw. And do a shepherdizing search. Itself anymore. Now I think they just ask a chat bot. And. It. Constructs the search for them. So we've moved even. Further from that. Um. So I studied both.

[00:20:47] American law. And. Islamic law. I was. Um. You know. Animated by these issues of. Inequity in American law. Criminal justice. Especially. Um. And. I. You know. Studying. And then I wondered. You know. What do things look like. From a comparative. Tradition. One that I did not know. Much about. But. It. You know. Happened to have resonance. For me as a Muslim. So I was curious about. You know. What does some other. How.

[00:21:16] How do we think about these things. And so that launched this effort. In studying Islamic law. But then I thought. You know. It was much harder. To. Grasp. Some of the answers. In Islamic law. I spent 10 years. Going to. You know. Different libraries around the world. Did a PhD. At Princeton University. In Islamic legal history. Didn't have the tools. To kind of. Dial up. West law. Like service. For Islamic law.

[00:21:46] And so. I. Thought. The next logical thing. To do. Would be. To build one. And so. Yes. That was behind the launch. Of Sharia Source. Which is the. Platform at Harvard. That is designed to do a part of that. And now. Usul.ai. Which is. A company outside of Harvard. That I'm involved with. Trying to. Bring it. Bring the technology. For. Sophisticated Islamic research. Up. Even further. To meet our moment. With the use of AI.

[00:22:17] Yeah. And I apologize. Sharia Source. Of course I. I had a. A fog moment there. As far as pronouncing the name. But I'm. I'm old enough to remember. Shepardizing. Okay. Did you also go. Go down to the basement. And look at all the findings of the book. Yeah. Well. It was like. So. I didn't go to law school. But we had introduction to law. At Jackson State. And. And. And. And. And.

[00:22:45] Dr. Charles Holmes was a professor. And Dr. Holmes was like. You know. He treated us like it was a. If. Year one law school class. Oh wow. And so we had to go to. They may have had some. I don't think they had any Shepard. Citations at our library. We had to go to the state law library. Fortunately. Jackson was the state capital. Right. So we could go down to the state law library. And. And then there was another. Uh. The Mississippi College School for law.

[00:23:15] So we could. We could utilize. Those. But most of us went to the state law library. Because it was less hassle. You know. To get in. That's even more laborious. You're not even in the same building. No. Not even on campus. But. You know. It was. I mean. It was just part of the experience. You know what I'm saying. So. Yeah. So I definitely know the pain. So now. Yeah. It's real easy with Westlaw. Because I. Westlaw actually kind of started right around the time. I graduated. And so it was like.

[00:23:45] Because some of the lawyers were playing with this. Like. Oh. Look at this. I can pull this up on the computer. They were really fascinated. By. Yeah. You have been an academic. Most of your legal career. But in 2020. You joined the legal team. That successfully advocated for. Carryall horn. To receive back pay. From the Buffalo Police Department. What was your interest in that case? Yeah. It was the same as the animating interest. That got me interested in law.

[00:24:15] The inequities that we see all around us. And how can we use law as a vehicle. To. To correct. Those wrongs achieve justice. This was in the wake of George Floyd's murder. And. As you know. That was a case where. If. A police officer had intervened. We wouldn't have the. The murder of George Floyd. And. You know. My co-counsel. In that case. Ron Sullivan. I think he put it well.

[00:24:44] When he said. You know. A lot of people are saying. This is. Carryall horn's case. Is one. Where if George Floyd. Had a carryall horn. He'd still be alive today. So she did the same thing. Intervene with an officer. That was choking out. A black man. That he was arresting. She was on the scene. She tries to stop him. But instead of being commended for that. I think. Laudable act. She was. Fired from her job. Blacklisted from. Getting any other job.

[00:25:14] Lost her pension. As a result. You have to work a certain amount of years. For your pension invest. You know. Just sort of. Down and out. And then I got a. Call from. A friend that runs a civil rights. In Chicago. Ramina Shashidi. Who runs Iman. Who said. Listen. You know. There's this case. And 15 years have passed. I don't know what you can do. I know there's such a thing. The statute of limitations. But. If you think it's. You know. If you think it's a good cause.

[00:25:43] And something you can do something about. It would be really great. If you could think about it. I. Look. You know. Took a look at the case. Consulted with. Ron Sullivan. And we. We said. Look. It is a long shot. But it's a no brainer. To take this on. We don't like. Impossible. As an answer. You know. Don't take it as an answer. And said. We'll. We'll find a way. And. Thank God. We were able to. Pursuing. Different strategies. In.

[00:26:13] In New York. In the interest of justice. Asking the court. To reopen this case. And. And. You know. Consider the case. If we knew now. Or if we knew then. What we know now. This formula. Called. Nunk pro tank. Now for then. How would we decide this case. And what can we do about it. Now that we know better. And. Uh. Carriol's law. A law that. Provides for the duty. To intervene.

[00:26:43] And remedies for those who do. And suffer as a result. Passed. In the local. Buffalo. New York. Council. Council. So that added. To the case. And so we were able to. Successfully. Argue on her behalf. And they restored her. Employment. Retroactively. Which had the effect. For some period of years. Which had the effect. Of giving her. Back pay and pension. So we thought that was. You know. A win. A win for justice. And hopefully a model. For other states. To do the same.

[00:27:12] Both on the laws of policing. And correcting wrongs. Even if they happen. A long time ago. Yeah. Because. There was even another nuance. Where she got sued. By the officer. Yeah. And actually lost that case. So she was supposed to. I think he was supposed to. Pay him. Pay the aggressor. Yeah. Pay him like 60 some thousand dollars. And fortunately. That got overturned as well. Right. She didn't. She didn't owe that money. But. The reason why. I was really excited.

[00:27:42] To have you on. Was because of your work. On that case. And the fact that. That's not. A case that's being. Lifted up. Right. It's. You expressed your hope. That other people. Would take on that mantle. That's been. Five years. At the minimum. And it. And really. That there's. You know. Outside of Buffalo. You don't really hear. A lot about folks. Moving the needle like that. And if they are. It's been very low key. But.

[00:28:11] You know. I wanted to. To bring that out. Because. Having been in law enforcement. Myself. You know. That. That would be my natural instinct. It's like. Hey. You. You going a little bit too far. And I wouldn't. I wouldn't care about the consequences. Within the. Quote unquote. Locker room. Or. At the office. My job. Is to protect. And serve. So if I see. One of my folks. Acting out of line. Then. Then I got to intervene too. And so.

[00:28:40] It just seems natural. But you know. Y'all had to deal with that. Them blue line. And. All that other. Mess. You know. And. And Miss Horn. Especially had to deal with it. So. I just. I just really wanted. You know. When I had this opportunity. I really wanted to uplift that case. Because that's something. That really needs to be a standard. And even though it's kind of implied in. The academy. If.

[00:29:09] If every officer training knew. That was a law in the state. That they were training in. Then. I think we would get. Better law enforcement. And that's. Maybe that's. Pollyannish in my thought. But. I just believe that if you knew. When you went through the academy. You are expected to stop an officer. From crossing the line. Then. That things would be better. Agreed. Much agreed. And I. I mean. It's not. It hasn't gone as far as I would like to see. In this. Time. But I'm still optimistic.

[00:29:39] I know that there are several states. I look at the. You know. There's that site. Eight can't wait. One of them is. Which tracks policing reforms. Duty to intervene. Laws have been taken up in. Quite a few states. I know that. Attorney General Keith Ellison. Uh. You know. Spoke to. Retired officer. Horn. And. You know. There was some work in Minnesota. Obviously.

[00:30:08] Where George Floyd. Was murdered. Um. So I'm. I'm still. Encouraged. That. It's still worth. Talking about. Still worth. Looking at that case. And still worth. Taking it up. In various jurisdictions. To. You know. To like you say. Inform the police officers. What the. Rules are. And hopefully. Bring about some. Change. When. The rubber. Rubber really hits. The road. In those dangerous moments. Yeah. I. I'm not surprised. That Keith Ellison. Was the name. That you mentioned. Uh. That brother is. He's about as true.

[00:30:38] As you can get. When it comes to. You know. Legal reform. And all that. I. He and I. Were contemporaries. He was in the state legislature. In Minnesota. When I was in the state legislature. Mississippi. And we met. Uh. And then we both ended up. That next year. Running for federal office. He was a little more successful. Than I was. But. That's. That's the way it goes. In politics. But. He's always been that. That progressive. Minded person.

[00:31:08] And we need more people like that. Especially in a prosecutor's role. Speaking about prosecutors. Are you still involved. With the international criminal court? I am. I am. So I serve. As a special advisor. To the office. Of the prosecutor. And that. I mean. It really involves. Advice. On some of these. Some of these cases. Of injustice. That you see. Abroad. Like. The Taliban. In Afghanistan. What.

[00:31:38] Are the. There's clearly. A problem. With. Due process. And justice. The women. And others. In that country. What is it. That crosses. You know. That violates. International law. And how do we bring. Folks that. Violate the law. To justice. To make. Life. Better. For those. Subject. To. To the. To the law. And to the violations. Of the law. So explain to the listeners.

[00:32:07] What exactly is the international. Criminal court. Court. Because. Some people. Were aware of it. When South Africa. Made its charge. Against Israel. During. The. After October. The 7th. And their response. To that. And South Africa. Accused them. Of genocide. And I believe. The court. Agreed with them. Um. So. What. What is the. What is the. International criminal court. And. And. What.

[00:32:37] What power. Do they really have? So the. International criminal court. It's a. It's a. Criminal. International criminal tribunal. It's based in. The Hague. In the Netherlands. And. It is a. Body. That. By agreement. Of some states. That have come together. To form the court. Called the Rome Statute. Uh. Prosecutes. Individuals. For. The most. Serious crimes. Uh. That.

[00:33:07] Are of concern. To the international. Community. There are four. Major crimes. That are the. Designated as the most. Serious crimes. Under the Rome. Statute. And that's. Genocide. Crimes against humanity. War crimes. And crimes of. Aggression. Um. Which unfortunately. We look around the world. And we see. Uh. That these are very live. Issues. That. That need some. Attention. Or some collective. Uh. Action to.

[00:33:36] To arrest. And to. And to stop. Where it's not going to. Stop within. The confines. Of a single country. That might be. Uh. Taken over by rebels. Or it might be taken over by. A government that is. Uh. Oppressing its community. Or. Um. Or a community. That it might be colonizing. And so. The. Uh. Uh. The good thing is that there is this. This sort of tribunal. And agreement for. Raising the issue.

[00:34:06] Collective action. It only is by agreement though. Uh. Uh. Uh. Signatories. To the Rome statute. That agree to the jurisdiction. Of the international criminal court. The United States is not one. Uh. And so. Uh. There's a limitation on. Uh. What it can actually do to enforce. Uh. Judgments. Or. Or to even prosecute. Certain countries. Well that was going to be my next question. Should the United States recognize. International criminal court?

[00:34:36] Uh. I think so. I mean. I. I think that. Uh. You know. The court is there to. To address. Issues of major injustice. Coming out of the. Two world wars. That told us. That there's. Without this sort of coordinating body. And this is inter. Modern international law in general. We risk. Just that. That sort of manifests. Injustice. And. These.

[00:35:06] The worst crimes. That it was. Set up to. Address. And prevent. So. Why wouldn't. A country. Like the United States. Or any other country. That sees itself as a leader. In. In ideals of freedom. And justice. And. You know. Democracy. Why wouldn't it sign on to something that stands for. Uh. Stands for. Abolishing.

[00:35:35] Addressing. The worst. Kind of crimes. Major. Groups of people. Yeah. I. I think it's odd. Because. After World War II. The United States agreed. That they were going to do two things. They were going to set the monetary policy. Basically. The dollar is the standard. For international monetary policy. And then they agreed to be the policemen. Of the world. And. I can't imagine.

[00:36:04] In a society that has police. That they don't have a relationship with the court. And so it's like. How can you. How can you say you're going to. Police. And you know. There's debate whether we should do that. But since. We basically gave our word. That we were going to do that. And. And. How can you say that you're going to police. But then you're not a member of the court. So. A war criminal. That you're going after. And say.

[00:36:33] I'll just name an African country. Not to target anybody. But just say Sierra Leone. There's a war criminal there. Everybody's gone after him. And then he. That war criminal. Flees the United States. Because. Because the United States. Is not a member of that criminal court. They can't do anything about him. Not unless he has committed a crime. That impacts the United States. Like if they were U.S. You know. Killed during one of the attacks. Then the United States would.

[00:37:02] Probably hit him with a terrorism charge. Or her with a terrorism charge. But. They wouldn't have. They wouldn't be. That international community. A criminal court warrant. That they could just say. All right. You showed up here. We're taking you straight to the Hague. Right. That's. That's powerful. The way that you can. You connect. This conversation. With the other. On policing. Because I'm seeing. As you're speaking. You know. A very clear. Through line. We have.

[00:37:32] If we have policing. What are we going to do. To both train. And discipline the police. And make sure. That we're all participating. In a. You know. End-to-end system. That will bring about. That justice. You can't just. Adopt one part. Forget about the other. And expect for. Justice to come out. At the other end. So I think. You know. You're absolutely right. Whether we're talking about. Policing domestically. And in each. Community. And municipality.

[00:38:02] Or the global community. It all works as part of the system. If we're not doing our part. Then how can we expect. Good results. Thank you. That's probably the nicest thing. Somebody's going to say to me today. I appreciate that. All right. So what is. Sharia law. And why should Americans. Not be afraid of it. So Islamic law. Or Sharia. Is.

[00:38:32] It's a system of law. That was. That first came about. In. 1400 years ago. With the message of Muhammad. The prophet. Brought. The message of what we now know of. As Islam. About. You know. A fifth of the world's population now. And like I said. 1400. Years old. And it. It really is an Arabic term. Just to refer to. That. That.

[00:39:01] Islamic. Religious. Ethical. Legal. System. That helped. Organize society. With respect. This. Islamic. And so with reference to. Muhammad. The prophet. The Quran. Which is scripture. In the Islamic world. But then also. As we have with. Anglo-American. And some civil. Law societies. Tons of.

[00:39:32] Treatises. And court decisions. And. Fatwas. Laws. Or advisory opinions. And. You know. Individual legal opinions. So there's this whole body. Almost common law. Of. Decisions. And opinions. That all. You might say. Constitute. Islamic. Law. So I think it's neither. A monolith. Nor is it. Strange. To think that. Society. Including.

[00:40:02] Societies. Of. Yesteryear. All of which. Were organized. On religious bases. Including. The Holy Roman Empire. As a counterpart. The Islamic world. At the time. So now we're talking about. The seventh century. Onward. I don't think it's strange. To think that. You know. There would be. A legal system. And. The question for us. Now. I think. Is to. Try to understand. Sharia. What was it about. In my own work.

[00:40:32] And my own understanding. Of it. Having. You know. Study this. For the better part of. What would I say now. A quarter century. It's. It's a. It's a system. That aims. Toward. The same. Ultimate goals. As we say. We are interested in. In America. Which is. Freedom. Justice. Fairness. And the ability. Of each. Individual. To cultivate. Their. Full selves.

[00:41:01] So individually. And collectively. In. In groups. That they may. Form. Um. There's nothing. About that. If I'm. Sitting with my. American hat. Or scarf. So to speak. On. That sounds strange. Or foreign. That's not what we hear. Based on. Or what we come to understand. Based on. Political. You know. What's live. In politics.

[00:41:31] You have. Taglines. In Texas. Right now. That say. You know. Let's get rid of. Sharia. What. You know. What is it. That they're actually. Dog whistling. About. It's really. You know. You know. We're. You know. Texas. The lone state. Make America great again. And that includes. No. No. People. That don't look like. The time.

[00:42:01] Presumably. When America was great. For some people. Especially. White property. Owning. Men. During the time of slavery. And after. Property. Including. Human property. Sharia is against that. If. If we want to be. You know. Reductionist. About. What. Entire legal systems. Are getting to. So I would. I would say. And maybe this is. Well.

[00:42:31] I'll give it back to you. But I think maybe this is. A way of understanding. To. Something that I wrote about. In the America. Unfinished. Volume. Which is that. Sharia. Has always been. A part of America. Something. I call. Antebellum. Sharia. There is. Civil rights. Sharia. And then there's. Modern contestations. Over. The meaning. And definition. Of. Sharia. That I think. We all need to understand. More. But when I say.

[00:43:01] Antebellum. And civil rights. Sharia. We can look at these. Two distinct. Periods. Of American history. And understand the ways. In which. And see figures. Like Omar ibn Saeed. During the Antebellum period. Who was an enslaved person. Well trained in Islamic law. Who petitioned for his freedom. To figures that range from the North Carolina. Governor. To a congressman. Some of. His fellow Muslim.

[00:43:30] Enslaved people. Had petitions that went to. Tom. Thomas Jefferson. All based on. They're making arguments for freedom. Based on. Sharia. In ways that coincided with. Our ideals. They weren't enforced at the time. This was. Still antebellum. Slavery. Period. Of American history. But they're making. Arguments that coincide with. Our ideals of freedom. If we were able to understand. Sharia.

[00:44:00] Back then. In that way. Would it have helped accelerate. The. You know. Eventual. Dismantling. Of slavery. And. The. Continued. In my view. And the continued need. To redress. Its. Its ill. Effects. Yeah. Well you said way right into my next question. Because that's where I was going. Because you make the distinction. Further. Antebellum. As opposed to civil rights. Sharia. That.

[00:44:31] Basically. It was the level of effectiveness. It was like. Antebellum. Sharia. Was. Out there. And. The young man. That you had mentioned. He. He passed away. Literally. Like. Months after the emancipation. Proclamation. Was written. Right. And was never freed. Never knew of his freedom. Yeah. And. But then. When you say. Civil rights. Sharia. You're talking about. You. You made the comparisons. With Malcolm X. And. And. And Muhammad Ali. And. How they incorporated. Their beliefs.

[00:45:02] And. Even though. They weren't considered. Traditional. Right. They. That showed that. Sharia law. Had an impact. In the decision. Or the. The arguments. Were based off. Of Sharia law. And that was effective. Yeah. And I guess. You kind of concluded. I still want people. To read the essay. But I guess. Kind of concluded. That.

[00:45:33] We need to see. How the modern iteration. Of Sharia. Develops. Especially now. You talking about. You're going to have. An AI platform. You know. In this digital world. That we in. How that. How it's going to manifest itself. And what lessons. You're going to learn. From the past. In order to be more. Impactful. Or. I guess. Less fear. Is. I guess. The term I want to use.

[00:46:03] And people don't have aversions. Once they understand. The context. Of what Sharia law. Actually means. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. I think that fear comes from. Lack of understanding. And some feeling of discomfort. Maybe. You know. If we want to put the. Most positive spin on it. It's some recognition. That. That. All is not. Well. In the state of Denmark. Or the state of Texas. So to speak. And with that discomfort.

[00:46:31] You want to play a blame game. And blame others. Blame something that looks foreign. Sharia. As a foreign boogeyman concept. A convenient. Attack. Place. You know. This. Discomfort. On to. With the fear of the unknown. But I think if we. If indeed. If we look at. The civil rights movement. These towering figures. Of Muhammad Ali. Malcolm X.

[00:47:00] Some of the best. Known. Black Americans. You know. Period. In history. We see. That. And. And regardless. Of whether we look at their. You know. The details. Of their theology. They were a part of the nation of Islam. And then they. Transitioned to. Mainstream Islam. But throughout. They were animated. Or motivated. Explicitly so. By. The same global.

[00:47:30] Message. That. Islam. Or. Sharia. Has always maintained. Going back. To. At least. To Quranic verses. That say. Oppression is worse. Than slaughter. And that. Motivated them. You know. For example. Muhammad Ali. To not. Go fight people. In Vietnam. That he said. Had never oppressed him. So why should he go. Slaughter them. Why not. Fight for. Freedom and justice. In America. And. Malcolm X.

[00:48:00] You know. All the work. That he did. Especially. Him. And he's a standard. For a larger movement. Of Muslims. That were. Motivated by. What I'm calling. The civil rights. Sharia. How do we protect. Our communities? How do we have. Better policing. Better. Prison. Accommodations. How do we reform. Men. Who were once. Hopeless. And on the streets. And strung out on drugs. To being. You know. Having a sense. Of.

[00:48:31] Dignity. And self-worth. And discipline. That manifests. Or is trained. Things like. Praying. Five times a day. Or reading. Scripture. Gathering. To study. On Fridays. And that sort of thing. To. Create better economic. Contributions. To society. And their communities. To have better policing. Better prisons. And the like. And all of this is. Enshrined now. In our. In many of our. Laws.

[00:49:00] I talk about some of the cases. In the essay. So it's really a tale. Of two. Sharias. The one. Antebellum. Foreign. Scary. Boogeyman. Should be. Either subordinate. Or excluded. From American society. That's that. Antebellum. Sharia. Or even. Or for that matter. The modern. Foreign terrorist. Notion of it. And then there's. The civil rights. Sharia. Which I think. Really. Made America.

[00:49:30] A better version. Of herself. When. When America. Was in dialogue. With. The people. Holding. Her feet. To the fire. Saying. Hey. You say you're about. You know. Freedom. Justice. Equality. These are the ways. We're experiencing. Inequality. And here would be a way. Of including us. In this. This universal. Tent of. Ideals and principles. That the constitution. Represents.

[00:50:00] And when we listen. And have that exchange. And dialogue. With understanding. Then I think we. Come up. On top. With a better. With better. Rights regimes. With better policing. Better prisons. Better employment. Laws. Better. Educational. Systems. And so. The essay. Really. It really is a call. For choosing. The second version. Of that. The civil rights. Sharia. And the understanding. That I think this. West law.

[00:50:29] For Islamic law. Or maybe AI. Chat. For Islamic law. Will help. Bring about. If you have. Communities. Of people. Engaging. For understanding. And furthering. Our path. Toward justice. Rather than. Scaring people. From justice. And freedom. Yeah. And obviously. You were picking up. On my notes. As we go along. You got with the flow. Because that was going to be. My next question. About why is oppression. Worse than slaughter. But. I want to say.

[00:50:58] That I think it's ironic. That. We're trying to say. Well some politicians. Are trying to say. That Sharia law. Is this bad thing. And. We don't want. A religion. In telling us. What to do. And how to dress. And all that stuff. And yet. The same people. Embrace this thing. Called white Christian nationalism. Which is nothing more than. You know. Basically. A theocracy. I.

[00:51:28] You know. I don't like to equivocate. But I want people. To understand. That. That. That. Because sometimes. There's some negative connotations. Even if you try to equivocate. But. You know. When people. Rebelled against the nation. To Islam. You know. They're saying. He's a black nationalist. They. They don't want to be. Integrated with society. Yada yada yada. Right. And they're preaching this thing. But there's no difference. To me. Than white Christian nationalism. It's. It's like. They're saying. That they.

[00:51:59] Want this world. That. You know. Everybody looks the same. Everybody looks like Charlie Kirk. You know. And we just. We just sing. Everybody. Everybody just be so. Subordinate to them. And that's my challenge to them. If you don't like the nation. The Islam. Then why do you embrace. The clan. And I'm not saying that. They're equivalent. But in. In their mind. It is. And so. I said. Why do you.

[00:52:29] Why do you think. One is acceptable. As the other. Why do you think. That theocracy. Is bad. In one sense. Because that's. The main argument. Against Sharia law. But you think. That theocracy. Is good. Because you keep saying. That the founding fathers. Were all Christians. When they weren't. And so. That's. That's kind of the dichotomy. And I. And I. And like I said. I wish we had more time. But. I. I really. And you know. Now that you've been on the show. That's. That's. You know. You have open invitation. To come back.

[00:52:59] So maybe we can come back. And revisit. You know. As. As things go along. But. I just want people to understand. That. You know. When people talk about. Sharia law. You know. Because in the Jewish community. I forget what they call it. I love that. Yeah. I mean. You know. It's like. Every. Every community. I mean. You know. In the black community. We call it. To come to Jesus meetings. That's what we call it. Right. And so. You know. But it's like.

[00:53:29] It's a. It's an accountability system. Within a community. Or a faith. And so. You know. I don't know why people. Get so hung up. About that. Other than. They're just. Like you said. Trying to create a boogeyman. To justify. You know. Them getting elected. Or keeping certain people. From being elected. And all that stuff. So anyway. It's ignorant. Yes. If I can say one thing here. It's just that. We can. We can. I think at the end of the day. We can either.

[00:53:59] Level down. And think. You know. Tit for Ted. If you can do this. I can do this. And you know. What's the worst. You know. Kind of thing. That we should build. Our society on. Or you know. What's. What's the. Worst. But most acceptable thing. To the majority. That's not where. That's not where. We need to go. If we want to. Address the problem. That we have in this country. I think. Right now. Everyone acknowledges. That there's a lot. That is. Broken. In.

[00:54:28] Our institutions. Our. You know. Culture. Some of the inequities. I. You know. Mentioned in the. Essay as well. Where there's. Official data. From the. CDC. The Federal Reserve. The National Center for Education. Statistics. There is a. Problem. Even aside from the headlines. That we're seeing. Every day. About. Tensions. Culturally. Politically. So. So. I think that calls us. To this moment.

[00:54:58] Maybe it's not a come to Jesus moment. It's a come to constitution moment. That. It's like. We say. We want a. We want a. Fair. Equal. Democracy. Where everyone is entitled to equal protection of the law. Where we have separation of powers. That work. Where we have good governance and fairness. Theocracy is nowhere there. There is a separation of church and state. And so.

[00:55:27] If there is anything that. You know. Is promoting. Erasure of that separation of church and state. We don't want it. I don't think that's what Sharia is fundamentally about. If Muslims choose to govern themselves. In a certain way. With certain religious precepts. Just like Christians might in their communities. Just like Jews might in their communities. Fine. But what are the common grounds. Agreed upon constitutional principles. That we can come to together.

[00:55:56] To speak about. I don't think that happens. Without further knowledge. Engagement and interactions. With the actual substance of the people. And the arguments. In this diverse America of ours. I think Martin Luther King. Exhibited that. With. From the. From the. You know. Once he left. The pulpit. You know. He's talking to his parishioners. And then. You go out to. You know. The larger movement streets.

[00:56:26] And then you have an argument. About the constitution. I think he exhibited it. As well as did. Malcolm X. Different context. But they ultimately. If we. Understand both of them. In the same civil rights. Vain. Made America. Better. Through that engagement. And I think that's where. We are today. Where we need to make America. Better. Through. This understanding. And engagement. Identifying the problem. And addressing it. Well. If. If. If. If. If that catches on. I'm going to say that you started it. I mean. It said.

[00:56:56] Come to constitution meeting. I think that's. I think that's. Probably the catchphrase. We need to have. For the next. At least two or three years. For sure. I'll take it. So let's finish. My challenge. For all my guests this year. Is to finish this sentence. I have hope. Because. I have hope. Because. The past. Suggests that. Justice will prevail. All right.

[00:57:25] And that's. That's awesome. And I can tell by your enthusiasm. And. And your. Your. Your. Your dialogue. That you are a hopeful person. I think to be an educator. And especially in this day and time. You definitely have to be a hopeful person. And I. And I. You know. Just being an educator alone. Holds you in a higher standard. As far as I'm concerned. Now. If you were a social worker. It'd be almost like perfect. But. But.

[00:57:56] You know. We sometimes play that role through. Representation in the law. That's exactly right. So. Professor. In a stars. In a stars. Rob. I just want to thank you for doing this. And thank you for coming on. If people want to reach out to you. Get in touch with you. How can they do that? My. I have a website. It's. You could just look at. You know. Google. Harvard Law School. Rob. R. A. B. B.

[00:58:25] I think I might be the only Rob on faculty. Certainly at the law school. And so you'll come right to me. Okay. Well. Professor. Again. Thank you so much for doing this. It was an honor to talk to you. And. And. And like I said. I look forward to further conversation with you. Likewise. On both scores. Thank you for having me. All right. Guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.

[00:59:07] And we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest. Maya Rupert. Maya Rupert. Is an author. A podcast host. A political strategist. And a social justice leader. She has been recognized by national outlets. Including Ebony Magazine. And The Root. For her leadership in the black community. Maya received her B.A. From University of California Santa Barbara. And her Juris Doctorate. From the University of California Berkeley.

[00:59:35] She clerked for the Honorable Eric L. Clay. Of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. In 2020. She served as campaign manager. For Julian Castro's presidential campaign. And is only the third black woman. To have managed a major presidential campaign. When Secretary Castro exited the race. She joined Elizabeth Warren's campaign. As a senior advisor. In 2021. She managed Maya Wiley's. New York City mayoral campaign.

[01:00:04] Maya contributed a piece. To the anthology of. How I Resist. Activism and Hope for a New Generation. Released in 2018. Maya has previously been awarded. The NABJ. Salute to Excellence Award. For her writing. Maya has also been a contributing writer. To a number of outlets. Where she frequently addresses. The intersection of race. Gender. Culture. And politics. Her work has appeared in publications.

[01:00:34] Including the New York Times. The Atlantic. Teen Vogue. And Slate. Her book. The Real Ones. Was published by Denton Books. In 2026. She is the host of. When we win. By. With Maya Rupert. A limited series podcast. With Lemonada Media. The show was nominated. For an NAACP. Image Award. For outstanding podcast. Limited series. Maya is a nationally respected voice. On progressive politics. And the future of the Democratic Party.

[01:01:03] She has appeared as a guest. On national television and radio. Including for MSNOW. CNN. NPR. And SiriusXM. Maya has spent much of her career. As a leader in non-profit organizations. And as a leading voice. In social justice movement politics. She has led on issues. Including racial justice. Reproductive rights. Injustice. Economic justice. LGBTQ rights.

[01:01:32] And environmental justice. In the aftermath of the Dobbs decision. She was a senior advisor. To the president. At the center. For reproductive rights. Where she led the external relations. And governmental work. In the spring of 2022. She was a Harvard Institute. Of politics resident fellow. Where she led a study group. On dismantling the myths. That keep many people. Out of careers. In politics. Ladies and gentlemen. It is my distinct honor.

[01:02:01] And privilege to have as a guest. On this podcast. Maya Rupert. Maya Rupert. How you doing sister? You doing good? I'm doing well. Thanks. Thank you so much for having me. Well thank you so much. For accepting the invitation. I feel honored. I did get the name right. Right?

[01:02:31] Absolutely. Okay. All right. I usually check before. I turn the button on. But I took a chance. My phonics training paid off. Well done. Well done sir. So. So. Ms. Rupert. I wanted to talk to you. Because you wrote this book. Called The Real Ones. And so. When anybody black. Writes a book called The Real Ones. I'm going to pay attention to that. Because I want to see where they're going.

[01:02:59] And the subject that you deal with. In the book. The overall theme in the book. I think it's something that all of us. Can relate to. So we're going to get into that. But before we do that. I do a couple of icebreakers. So the first icebreaker. Is a quote. That I want you to respond to. And the quote is. The measure of authenticity. Is how much we believe. A performance. I mean.

[01:03:29] I think that's. Unfortunately. A very. A very good description. Of how. Our public conversation. On authenticity. Tends to go. I mean. A lot of times. What we're asking for. When we say. I want someone who's authentic. We know that in some. To some extent. There is a performance. That's being engaged. In. Through that. That. But we want someone. Who can. Convince us. That. Even though I'm performing. For an audience.

[01:03:58] This is what I genuinely. Would be doing. It's a little circular. And so. I think it's part of. Why. So much of the premise. Of the book. Is based on this. Idea that. Authenticity. The way we tend to talk about it. Doesn't really exist. Yeah. All right. And then. The next icebreaker. Is what I call. 20 questions. Okay. So I need you to give me a number. Between one and 20. Eight. All right. What is one thing.

[01:04:27] You hope the current administration. Will do or not do. During the remainder of their term. Leave at the end of it. All right. I mean. If you want a more serious question. I'm trying to think. I am. I'm very hopeful. That we don't. See any more rollbacks. On accessing. Medication abortion. I think it is one of. The things that has been. Consistently under attack. It is one of the.

[01:04:57] Most critical forms of health care. That women. And a number of people. Access who. Want to be able to control. When they give birth. And it is critical. That it stays there. But I know. The FDA has been threatening. For a while. To rescind. Protections from it. So I'm very hopeful. That that does not. Come to pass. Yeah. Well I know you cut your political teeth. On that particular issue. So. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not surprised. That would be the answer you give. Although the first answer. Was very acceptable.

[01:05:28] Unfortunately. It is something we have to. You know. Does not. Come to pass. Yes ma'am. All right. So what. Oh. I do want to ask you one question. Before we get into this. Why don't you have a driver's license? You know. I never. I just never learned. I grew up in a small town. Which would. You tend to think. Okay. Well then you would learn to drive. I grew up in a small town. In Southern California. But. It was one of those things. You know. It's not like. Growing up.

[01:05:57] We didn't have like an extra car. So it's not like it would have. Significantly changed. A level of freedom. I or my sister had. You know. Like it was like. We didn't. It's not like. It was like. Okay. If one of us can drive. Then we are off on our own. So. It just. There was never. A huge occasion for it. But after 16 and 17. That's really the only window in your life. Where people are trying to teach you how to drive. After that. You have to be a lot more self-directed about it. And so. It just kind of never happened.

[01:06:27] And. You know. I've lived places with good public transit. And now they're coming out. With self-driving cars. And so I feel like. I guess. I guess. I guess. I got around. Well. I'll tell you a funny story. So. My. My mom. Did not get a driver's license. Until very late. In her adulthood. Okay. And the only reason. Why she got a driver's license. Because see. I'm of the generation. Where women. Couldn't get credit cards.

[01:06:57] Right. Right. And so. When she finally was able to get a credit card on her own. They required that she had to have a driver's license. So that's the only reason. Why she. She literally taught physical education. You. You've heard the movie. Cooley High. Yeah. Okay. She taught it the real one. She taught. Right. And she was. She was the cheerleading coach. So she was a phys ed teacher. Which meant that she had to teach driver's ed. And so she of course just taught the classroom part. But I. Sure. You know. And I was like.

[01:07:27] How did you teach driver's ed. And you didn't even have a life. How did you pull that off? She said. Look. I just dealt with the class part. I didn't have to go out there driving. Yes. Yeah. So. But it was like her cousin. She got her cousin. The teacher how to drive. And she. She learned how to drive. And the car that was supposed to be designated for me in college. This old Chevy Vega. And she went and got her license. I guess she was like in her 40s. When she finally got her license. Yeah. That's great. All right. Well.

[01:07:56] I'm in my 40s now. So maybe I still have time. Well. If you need it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. We gotta. We gotta watch these laws. Cause it's like. You know. I don't want you being denied the right to vote. Cause you don't have a driver's license. Now that's the part. I mean. You know. I thought that was interesting. When you said that. In order to get a credit card. You had to get a license. Because. That was undoubtedly intentional. In a moment where. Women couldn't have credit cards. Couldn't have credit cards. Finally got to the point where they could. Putting a requirement. Like you also have to have a driver's license.

[01:08:25] A lot of women. And I would imagine. Once your mother's generation. Didn't have driver's licenses. So it was one more way. They said. Okay. Technically. You can have. A credit card. But you just also have this. Have to have this other thing. You are less likely to have. And it's. I mean. It's. It's sad. That we now have serious conversations. About whether. You know. I mean. Repealing the 19th amendment. Has become. An actual part of.

[01:08:56] Mainstream debate. I mean. I don't think. I wouldn't say it's popular. But the fact that it's even something. That people say out loud now. We do have to be a little vigilant. About some of these things. That might start. Popping up as requirements. To make it harder. For some of us. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. So I just. When I read that. I was like. Wow. But she put it in a book. So I said. I put it in the book. She's not a thing to talk about. So I said. Well let me ask her about it. But I thought that would be fun. All right.

[01:09:26] So what made it. Motivated you to write the real ones? You know. I wrote it. I started. Thinking about it. While I was on. And right after the 2020. Election cycle. Because I just. Kept seeing this issue come up. I would see the candidates of color. I would see the women of any race. Get questioned about their authenticity. And. Obviously. Authenticity is a huge issue in politics. It's like the first thing.

[01:09:55] If you go and you say. I'm interested in running for office. The first conversation you're going to have. With anyone who's advising you. Any consultant. Is going to be. Okay. Well voters want authentic. Candidates. That's like. That is what we all say. But what that means. Is a real. Open question. You know. I mean. Once you ask people. Well. What do they really want. You'll usually get. A number of different answers. And because of that. There's so much room for bias.

[01:10:24] So what I kept noticing. In 2020. Was that. You know. The candidates of color. Would get. Get told. You know. You just. You don't come across as authentic. You seem. Too cautious. Too careful. That's what we got. I managed Julian Castro's. Campaign. And we would constantly. Get people saying. He seemed too careful. Too buttoned up. Too polished. But what was frustrating. Was that. We also know. That when candidates of color. Don't come across that way. They get. Penalized.

[01:10:54] More harshly. So. His thing was always like. Yeah. I don't have like. Scandals in my past. I didn't have a. You know. I. I knew. I wanted to do this. And. Where I come from. People don't get second chances. So I knew. I needed to make the most. With my first. And to me. That's an incredibly. Authentic answer. That. Resonates. With a lot of other people. Of color. Who grew up getting told. What. That we have to be twice as good. Right. Like. We all.

[01:11:23] We all got this. Refrain. Drilled into our heads. You have to be twice as good. In order to get. Half as much. That's what we got told. So we got conditioned. To. Be more careful. Be more cautious. Think about what we say. And how it's going to come across. But then. In the political realm. That caution. Gets read as being calculated. And then we get told. We're not being authentic. So. There is a frustration. That is. Basically. Being a person of color.

[01:11:54] In this country. Involves. A bit of this performance. It involves. Some. How am I being. Perceived. By a dominant gaze. Am I making white people. Uncomfortable. How can I. Figure out. How to be. So. I can be successful. And then. That same thing. Gets read later. As. Well then you're inauthentic. And so what I wanted. Was to problematize. That idea. That like. Being conscious. Of how you're coming across.

[01:12:23] Automatically makes it. Inauthentic. Because. Likewise. I would see. For the white men. Like. And I say this. Without any. This isn't. About critiquing. Joe Biden. In any bigger way. But. Joe Biden. Became. A senator. When he was 30 years old. And then he. Ran for president. Three times. He was vice president. Then he was president. Joe Biden. Does not have anything. In common. At this point. With most. Working class.

[01:12:52] White voters. In Scranton. Like. That idea. Just doesn't. Hold water. And he hasn't. For a long time. He didn't have. The 20s. And the 30s. Experience. That. These. Voters. Are calling upon. When they think about. When they were younger. Right. But somehow. His. Performance. Of. Uncle Joe. Of Scranton Joe. Doesn't get him. Labeled. Inauthentic. In fact. It. It. Like. Strengthens. His argument. Of authenticity.

[01:13:22] And so. That was what. Kept sticking with me. That it's not. That we aren't. Willing to recognize. That. To the quote. You started this with. To some extent. What we're asking for. When we say. Authenticity. Is. I want you to. Let me believe. Your performance. It's that. With some people. We find that. Troubling enough. That we call it. Inauthentic. And that seems to break down. Along the lines of race. And I also see it. Break down along the lines of gender. So that's what I wanted to explore. Yeah. All right.

[01:13:52] So I'm going to read a passage. From the book. Okay. To be clear. Our parents didn't warn us. About any specific. White person. Which was almost worse. Because there was always. A vague specter of fear. Around us. If we fail to be vigilant. To always be the best version of ourselves. Any white person. Even ones we trusted. Could become white people. So. When I read that.

[01:14:22] It was like. Oh my God. You know. It was like. You know. Every black person can relate to this. So. I've always. I've always. Had. Like a gauge. Right. Where it's like. I. I'd meet somebody white. I hang with them for a little bit. And whatever. And then there'd be always this moment. Where it's like. I always said their true nature came out. And it was like. Okay. Yeah. You are white. You know what I'm saying.

[01:14:50] And so I've been very fortunate. I got one person. Now. His wife had a moment. But he's been true. You know. He's been a true friend. And you know. And I just. And you know. And that. That. That meant something to me. And I'll never forget. I used to work. I worked for the last white sheriff. In Hines County, Mississippi. And.

[01:15:19] When the election that he lost. I was pulled from duty. And put into the campaign part of it. And so. After he lost. I got a job right across the street. To the tax collectors. Office. And the tax collector. And I. You know. Knew each other from Jackson State. Even though he's older. We had that connection. And so. He said something to me. About. Supporting that sheriff. And saying. You know. You should have went with the black guy.

[01:15:48] You knew the black guy. From back. And I. It was true. I told the black guy. Hey look. The sheriff didn't call me. Because he was in law enforcement also. But he wasn't with the sheriff. He was with the city police. I said. The sheriff's called me. I'm going to be working on a campaign. I just thought I'd let you know. Out of courtesy. You know. Of course. They try to make a story out of that. Anyway. When he said that. I turned to him. And I said. When I was down and out. When I needed some help. Were you the one that helped me.

[01:16:18] Were you the one that helped me. Or was it that white man. That you criticized. And me supporting. See. Because if you know by history. You know that you didn't do nothing. Until this job came about. But it was like. You know. When things were kind of tough. When I was working for him. In the sheriff's office. He always made sure that. I was whole. No matter what. Yeah. And I said. That's what. Friendship and loyalty is to me. It's not about a skin color.

[01:16:47] It's about. Helping people when they need help. And I said. Now. I don't know what he really thinks. About black people. I know he used to call me in the office. When he wanted to fuss about black people. That got on his nerves. And would vent to me. You know. And I sit there. I understood my role. Then I said. Are you calm? He said. Yeah. Okay. Good. All right. I'm going about my business. But. The reality was that. You know. We've always had to have that.

[01:17:16] What the question. At all that. The question I have for you is. Since you have written the book. Have you let your guard down? A little. Oh. You know. I think I've let my guard down. A lot of what I was describing. With that passage. Was. The feelings. I. I. Sort of built up around this. As a younger person. That it was like. That it was my responsibility. That I needed to catch the white people. And stop them from.

[01:17:47] Turning into the capital W. Capital P. White people. That I needed to. Be. So. Such a. Paradigm. Of. A black woman. Or black girl. And. Defy every stereotype. That they could not. Fall into racism. I've definitely let that go. But I think what I've even let go of. Is the idea that. That. That. When white people turn into.

[01:18:16] Capital W. White people. That that. That can't. Sort of. Get turned back. I've. Realized. That. I've met people. And. And because it's baked into every institution. We all have internalized racism. And we all have internalized anti-black racism. And because of that. It means. I'm going to have a conversation with every single person that I love. Including white people. Who. Where. So. At some point.

[01:18:46] They say something that I go. Ooh. Ouch. That doesn't make sense. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't sound like. That doesn't. Work. And. Instead of then going. Shoot. That's who they were all along. If we have enough of a relationship. I think we can. Have a conversation. Build and recover. Now for some people. We don't have that relationship. And I'm not willing. To. Go through that kind of labor. For people I don't know. Or don't.

[01:19:15] Are not already invested in. For some reason. Like. If some. A casual acquaintance says something. I have no problem just being like. I don't know about this one. But. For the people that I love. For the people that are in my world. And in my life. I think. That is. It's. What I've let go of. Is maybe not my guard. But just my. It's the vigilance. It's the fact that it's like. One time. Will transform everything. I've. I've. Gotten used to the idea that. You know. People will say something. People will have.

[01:19:45] An impulse. And we can also get past it. Yeah. Do you still play the only game in the world of politics? Yeah. I do. There are times when. I know. Everybody is looking at me. To gauge my reaction. In a moment. And I will. I will still. Find something else to fixate on. To try to. Send my mind somewhere else. And then. You know. Maybe won't be the first person to answer. You know. Like.

[01:20:14] If something comes up. And it's very clearly like. It's. You know. A racially charged issue. And. You would get called in. To kind of. You know. He needs to vent about. Black people. I'm curious. If you're. If you're feeling in those moments. Is similar. Where you just. Are kind of like. You know that your role. On some level. Is to be. The black voice.

[01:20:45] That is making. That is advising. Or that's making something okay. And. Yeah. In those moments. I do still have that. Kind of. I want to. Center myself. And not. Be overly conscious. Of the fact that everyone's looking at me for it. And try to approach it with the same spirit. I would. With anything else. That I have an expertise in. Maybe. But isn't my entire identity. And I can't. Fix forever. Everyone. I'm curious. Did you have. What was your feeling. When you would get called in. For those moments.

[01:21:15] Did it feel like. Good. I'm glad. I can be this. Release valve. Did you feel almost like. Why do you think. You can talk to me about this. You know. What was your reaction. So the first time. I had the latter. Why are you. Why are you saying this to me. What. Right. What. What made you think. That you can say that to me. As opposed. And what have I said. That makes you. Right. Yeah. I did. Totally felt that one. Yeah. And so. But. But it was like. It was like. One.

[01:21:43] I noticed that he called me into the office. It wasn't like he was out in public. Anything like that. He said. Eric. I need to talk to you about something. It was like. I'm thinking it's something that I've done on the job. Or. In a lot of cases. I was a state rep at the time. So he just say. Are you. Are you. Downtown. Can you come by the office. You know. And. You know. The first time. I had that kind of like. Why do you think you can say that to me. But then when I thought about the way that he handled it. I said. Oh.

[01:22:13] So he wanted to vent. So that way he wouldn't say anything stupid on a microphone. That would cost him votes. And. So I said. Okay. So when he did it the second time. I said. I got it. And then I thought about it. Even before I got elected. Even before I worked for him. I was the county chair. And I remember the first meeting we had. He was trying to lay down. You know. This is what I expect. And blah, blah. This, that, and the other. And I. And I told him. I said. Well.

[01:22:42] With all due respect. You're the sheriff. And you'll be a candidate. I'm the chair. So how I run the primary. And how I run the organization. Is my business. At that point. He and him. Me and him. Had an understanding. He knew of me. But. We had a clear understanding. And so at that point. He felt that I was somebody. That he could trust. And he could say something. And so I kind of valued that. You know what I'm saying? As. Yeah. As opposed to like. Who does. You know.

[01:23:12] But I. The first time he did it. I did have that kind of moment. All right. So what is the difference between. The authentic black queen. And the cool black girl. Well. I will say. I can start with what they have in common. And that is that they are both performances. And that one of the chapters. I talk about this. That they are both sort of. These are the names. I gave kind of the avatars that.

[01:23:41] Throughout my life and career. I sort of embodied. In order to. Perform a version of blackness. That at the time. And with the group of people. I was around. Worked. Best. For the white. Gays. That was around me. Right. So the cool black girl. The reference. For folks that know the book. Or the movie. There's a passage in Gone Girl. Where. The protagonist talks about. How. You know.

[01:24:11] Every girl. Learns that we're supposed to want to be the cool girl. You know. And that's the girl who. Talks sports. And plays video games. And she hates everything. That's stereotypically. Feminine. And she like. Will stay out late. And drink beer. And do shots. With guys. Loves casual sex. Doesn't want commitment. Eats. Absolutely. Whatever. Like. Always down for junk food. Let's order pizza. But. She always has to remain.

[01:24:41] Hot. She has to be conventionally attractive. She has to be very thin. She has to. Fit within. All of the confines of femininity. But she has to like. Abhor them. Right. So she still needs to be done up. And like. Super hot. But she can't be. The girl that likes makeup. Or the girl that takes two hours to get ready. That is this like. That's what we're supposed to be. Above all. We're supposed to strive to be the cool girl. That's the compliment you want a guy to pay you. And so the. What I sort of said is. Black girls have our own version of that. Right.

[01:25:11] That. In that same. Way. That those. Those are inconsistent. To any woman who listens to that. We're like. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. There's a similar thing that black girls are asked to do. Right. To be the cool black girl. Is to be. Urban. But not hood. You're supposed to know the slang. That your white friends will want to be like. Oh my god. What does that mean? Okay. I'm going to use it. But. You also are never going to embarrass them. By being too black. In a way that they wouldn't find fun. You will.

[01:25:41] Go out with them constantly. You're comfortable being the only black person. In any setting. You are. Constantly ready to make them feel better. About any internalized racism that they might have. But you are. Completely unbothered. By. All of the racism that you experience. In the all white spaces. That they constantly have you in. You. Of course. Would never say. I don't want to date a white guy. You would be open to dating anyone. But you're. Perfectly comfortable. That white men don't want to date you. Right.

[01:26:11] It's like. All of these things. And like. But above all. You're always. Always. Always. Supposed to make race. A non-issue for them. So they do not ever have chicken front. And that. Was. I feel like. An avatar that I. Got really good at embracing. Early in my career. And life. That I was just. I was the coolest black girl. Later. In my career. When. I think. I started. I worked more in progressive circles. And I was in different.

[01:26:40] Crowds. There was a different version. Of blackness. That really seemed to resonate. With. White audiences. And that was. What I call the authentic black queen. And she is. Her racial politics are beyond reproach. She. Has. A 2032. Lens. On race. Back in 2012. You'll never catch her slipping. She's got. She is. She is so. Racially. And consciously. Racially conscious.

[01:27:10] And socially aware. That. She is able to. Like. Penetrate situations. Where. Nobody else would be able to articulate. What's going on. She comes with the answers. She is. Like. She is. Always willing. To call out. What everybody else is feeling. In the moment. That call out culture. Was at its peak. And people actually. Wanted that. People. Craved. The. Black woman. Come and testify. And tell us what to do.

[01:27:39] And tell us we've been wrong. You know. There's this sort of weird. Self-flagellation. That would happen. That. That. The. Authentic black queen. Was great at doing. She could come. And she was. Black realness. And she didn't buy into. Any. Any white. Beauty standards. And she was. Just a font. Of confidence. No matter how much. She didn't fit into. Conventional. Beauty norms. She knew she was beautiful. And that emanated from her. She was the mother queen. And they were both fake. Right.

[01:28:09] That neither of them are. Real or possible. They don't exist in one human. They can't exist in one person. They would require a rejection. Of every single. Systemic issue. That we have in a way. That no one can do. But. But. They helped me. In very different ways. Be successful. Be accepted. Be. Lauded. And. A lot of what I. Struggled with in this book. Was reconciling. Those.

[01:28:40] Avatars. With who. I am. Because on some level. It was like. I'm performing them. They're not. Completely. Not me. But. They're obviously. Not me. And so. Trying to get to a point of like. Is the idea that I need to reject them. And. Be the real me. But. It's like. But then what is the real me? I think in the book. I make the joke. That's like. If you peel back. The cool black girl. And the authentic black queen. There's not a. Mildly self-aware. Chocolate princess. Like. I'm not like. Right. Like.

[01:29:10] I'm not just. Waiting at the core. Waiting to be exposed. I am. An amalgamation. Of a lot of these things. And I let. One of them. Drive. In any given moment. But. But the truth. Of me. Trying to work through. All of this. Is recognizing. Not that there's not really. A real me. But that there is. A lot of them. That realness. Is multifaceted. Yeah. Yeah. You know. This. This book kind of. Stirred up some memories. I remember. Yeah.

[01:29:40] When we were talking about. The cool black girl. I guess. I was just a cool black guy. Yeah. When I was 18. They had a convention. In St. Louis. For my church. And I was one of two black youth delegates. There. And. So. The other. Black guy. He was from California. And. You know. Now that I'm aware. I think he was. A member of the LGBTQ community. Uh-huh. At that time.

[01:30:10] He definitely couldn't say that to the church. Right. Sure. So. But. But. You know. But he. He was very articulate. Clean cut. All this kind of stuff. You know. I'm coming in with my afro. And. You know. All that stuff. So the white kids. Gravitated toward me. Because. They wanted to be a real black person. Right. And I'm saying. Well. He's black. Right. And it was like. Yeah. But he's different. You know what I'm saying. Yeah. They couldn't quite put a finger on it. But it was like. Yeah. And he was darker than I was. But.

[01:30:40] You know. The only thing that messed him up. Was he got on the piano. And started playing Oklahoma. The musical Oklahoma. Yeah. And. And I started singing with him. Because they didn't know. They knew I'd sang in the church choir. They didn't know I was in. Like the high school chorus. And all that stuff. Okay. All right. So when he started playing. Playing Oklahoma. I started singing with him. And the white kids were like. Should we know this song? What? How they know this song. You know what I'm saying. That was the only thing that messed him up. That whole week. Right. But anyway. Right. Yeah. But I.

[01:31:10] But I. I think all of us. Yeah. All of us have that moment. Because then. When you're around. You know. I. You know. Our paths kind of track a little bit. Because when you're around the progressive people. And you know. Now. I'm the state leader. And I got to take these positions. To help black folks. And all this stuff. And so if I say something that. Sounds kind of moderate. They're like. Are you selling out on us? What? It's like. Right. It's called. You know.

[01:31:40] Gradualism. It's called being realistic. And what goals we can attain. You know what I'm saying? Right. So yeah. It was just. Yeah. All of us. I think that. Understand. The journey of being black in America. Have really. Gone through that. I don't think. A lot of us articulated. The way we should. And that's why a lot of us go through a lot of stress. And. And. And. And.

[01:32:09] And stress does damage to us. But. I think. You know. All of us. If we really. Kind of step back and look. We. We've all. Played that role. And I'll get into that some more. Um. But. I don't want to abuse your time. But I do want some more questions. Um. Why is authenticity your guilty aversion? So. It was. For the longest time. Because. It didn't feel.

[01:32:38] It didn't feel like an accessible conversation. Whenever people would say. You know. Okay. We have to get to authenticity. And like. Let's talk about like. You know. Like. It was like. Nails on a chalkboard for me. And I would just kind of like. Be like. All right. Let me see how I can get out of this conversation. Because it didn't feel like something. Like. It. I constantly was afraid. That I was faking it. That there was. Some version. Of. This conversation. That other people had. That was like.

[01:33:08] You know. As simple as like. I remember when I used to. Like. Love. This TV show. And then. People said that it wasn't. You know. People made fun of me about it. So I let it go. And now I'm. I'm embracing it. And like. Living my true self. And it's like. There was such an. Unproblematic. Narrative arc. To what they were describing. As reaching their authenticity. And I always felt like. It was so much more complicated. And it was. It was.

[01:33:37] Tied up with more things. And you know. It wasn't just not liking a TV show. Because it wasn't popular. It was like. Not watching it. Like liking a TV show. Because no one else watched it. Because it was a black show. And if I went to school. And talked about. Living single. Nobody knew what I was talking about. But if I talked about friends. People did. And so then. And then. And then years later. It's like. That's why I started liking friends. But I love friends. So is it. That I never really. Like. Authenticity felt to me like. In order to have this conversation.

[01:34:07] I would have to pretend. That. Okay. Well then. Liking friends. Was just this camouflage. And that was never true. And I was like. But. But that is true for me too. And. Loving. Living single. Was a piece that I was hiding. But that doesn't. That doesn't make it more. Less true than the decisions I made. In order to get along. The conversation for me. That's more interesting. Is why I had to make those choices. But that wasn't the. Conversation that authentic. Authenticity.

[01:34:38] Wasn't. That wasn't what we were. Being invited to have. So I just. Would sooner stay. Out of the discussion. Rather than. Want to try to. Like. Get into some of this. Until I felt like. As soon as I started writing it. And talking to people about it. Like this. Like what we're saying. You're saying like. You want to get into another thing. But you're like. Okay. We won't. You know. Take the time. We only have. A limited amount of time today. But the whole point here is. We all have 50 of these stories. Just off the top of our head. As soon as we start thinking about it.

[01:35:08] Everyone who's experienced this. Has felt this. And as soon as I realized. How common it was. It stopped being a guilty aversion. And became. Like a puzzle. I wanted to solve. How do we make. The conversation around authenticity. One that. Resonates for us too. So that we can have. Some of these discussions. So that was kind of. I feel like. That was the process for me. Yeah. So what is your response. When some people say. Code switching is unhealthy. Yeah.

[01:35:38] I think that's just silly. I mean. I think. Code switching is something. We have always done. And just. You know. What's. What's understood. Doesn't need to be explained. So. You just. We just did it. It's so interesting. Now that it became. Like a part of the public vernacular. Because it used to just be something. We did. And just. You know. Only talked about. Among. Community. Code switching to me is. It is. You know.

[01:36:08] It is so common. And so. Just a part of how we learned. To survive in professional settings. Or settings where. You can't assume. Everybody. Operates with the same code. That you do. That it's almost like. It's like. Unremarkable. I think that what. What has gotten interesting about it is. We see people. Now more. In. In various. Contexts. So we see. Someone act differently.

[01:36:38] In two different settings. And there's. A dissonance that we have around it. And so I think. You know. When I talked about. Code switching the book. I talked about. Kamala Harris a lot. Because. I think she got. Critiqued. Really harshly for that. In a very bizarre way. Because. In politics. We basically. Let people pander. We know. That not everybody. Has. The same. Like. Aunt. Who. Made potato salad.

[01:37:08] That's just like. The potato salad. You get at this state fair. Like. We know. You don't have the. You know what I mean. Like. It's fine. We all. We. We play along. Because that's what happens. Politicians go to the south. They roll up their. Shirt sleeves. And they drop. Drop their G's. And they. Speak differently. And they. Interact differently. And we just let it go. But when. Someone like Kamala Harris. Speaks differently. In a black audience. Than she does in a white audience.

[01:37:37] I feel like part of what was so. Jarring for people. Is them feeling like. Wait a minute. Have I been getting the code switch version of her? Because. In the other scenarios. We assume you're pandering. But we normally see the real version of you. We know you went to Harvard. And you don't actually have. A southern twang that you adopt. When you go to certain states. We know that. You know. You're gonna. Like. Eat whatever local delicacy. You do in Iowa.

[01:38:07] But then. The rest of the time. Like. That's not really like. The culture you're inhabiting. With Kamala Harris. We don't know. And I think there were a lot of white audiences. That were like. Wait. Have I been tricked? Is she actually more culturally black. Than I understood her to be? And I think for a lot of black people. We were like. Who. Who do y'all think. Like. Yeah. You think that the like. Black HBCU. Like. You think she. Is exactly. Who you see.

[01:38:37] Speaking on behalf of the administration. All the time. I mean. I was always kind of like. Yeah. And there's probably another audience. I don't know anything about. Because I imagine. When she's with. Indian audiences. Or Disney community. More broadly. She is going to have. An even other. Set of code switching. That she engages in. That we wouldn't be a part of. But the idea. That it was like. We need. I need proof. That. What I see is real. And all of this. Is just for pandering. That to me. Is the.

[01:39:07] Is the. Challenge for. Candidates of color. Because if we allow you to pander. What we're basically saying is. We're. Act however you want. But. Your main audience. Needs to be a white one. And if your main audience. Isn't a white one. And they can't assume. I get the real version. Everything else is fake. That's when I feel like. There's a problem. Yeah. And. You know. In hindsight. I've read her book. And all this stuff. And that.

[01:39:36] In hindsight. I wish. That her social media team. Was actually the campaign team. Because. They. The way that they. They handled her. As far as like. She could. She could get HBCU. On you. In a moment. You know. She was an AK. I told my cousin. He was there. When she was there. I said. Yeah. I probably saw a comma. When I was visiting you. Saw her hanging out. With her mother AKs. You know what I'm saying. Right. And then. So it's like. So. Whatever.

[01:40:07] She's talking at. I'm sure she was talking. On the yard. Up there. Howard that way. And then. You know. But then. The community. Allowed her. You know. Social media. Allowed her to. Dig into her Indian roots. Because she would talk about. You know. Certain dishes. And. And you know. And tell stories. And all that stuff. And then. You know. And then of course. You know. When she was dealing with issues. Right. And you're dealing with somebody competent. Because that was the other thing. Black folks coming. Is she going to be strong enough.

[01:40:36] To deal with Putin. And all this other stuff. I said. Who do you think. Is the one that told Solisky. He was going to bomb her. I mean. She was the one. What. So. You know. I had to break all that down to folks. I said. She can handle it. She. She put people in jail. Brother. You. You understand. What kind of person that is. So she can put people in jail. She could go to somebody. And say. We're about to drop a bomb on you. I mean. If the conversation needs to go there. So. You know. I wasn't bothered by that. I was bothered by. What you were saying. To people trying to judge her.

[01:41:06] Because it's like. I heard the same conversations. I was on the ballot with Obama. And that was all they kept talking about. Was like. Well. Is he really back. Black brother. I said. He. He identifies as black. I mean. You know. He's about the same complexion. I am. You think I'm black. He said. Well. We know you Fleming. I said. Well. Get to know him. Because we both from Chicago. We. He's. He's a brother. You know what I'm saying. But I mean. That's always a challenge. When we get some people. So. Let me ask you this question.

[01:41:36] Since we're talking about it. Do you. Based on the observations. What we're talking about now. Do you think that there will be another black person in the White House. I absolutely do. But I think that we would make a mistake. If we said. Well. We've already had Obama. And we've already had Harris as VP. So. It's. It's. Understood. Like it's not even an issue. I think that we would be miss. Calculating.

[01:42:05] What it's going to take. Like. Because. I think that like. I think it's very easy to. Take exceptions. And then go. See. So there's. Of course. And if a black person can't win again. Then it's because. They didn't deserve to win. Or they did. Right. That's always my fear. Is that people will take the fact that it's happened. And then say it will be easy to do it again. There are things about both of them. That are not. Replicable. You know. I think. Look. What you were just describing.

[01:42:35] For Obama. Let's be real. We might have had some of those conversations. In private. Among friends. But the black community. Came together. And without saying it said. We're not going to be the reason. That this man does not get elected. So. Whatever problems you have. Everybody is going to keep him quiet. And yes. We wish he would do more stuff. With the black community. And campaigning. But we get it. We understand that. He needs to win over white voters. We understand that the race speech. In Philadelphia. Wasn't for us.

[01:43:05] It was for white people. Right. There were so many things. That everybody just was like. Keep it cute. Keep your mouth shut. And let's get this man elected. No one will ever. Get that level. Of grace. Again. And in fact. I think that. Communities of color. In general. Have become much more. That they are requiring. That candidates. From their communities. Be very vocally.

[01:43:36] And visibly supportive. Of them. And of their issues. This idea that. I'm going to be a person of color. But I'm going to run for the white people. Because they're the. They're the ones that. Are going to hold us back. And you guys. Have to take my word for it. I don't think that is a. I'm sorry. We are audio only. So I will say that my cat. Is getting very. She wants to be a part of this conversation. Right now. And I'm sorry. She's disrupting me. You have to give the cat's name now. Because.

[01:44:06] Her name is Cuomo. Which. You have to understand. She's 18 years old. When I named her. No one was thinking about the Cuomos often. So it was not a weird name. And then. Now. People are like. Did you. Who did you name your cat after? So it got weird. Retro. Retroactively. She. Has done nothing. But bring honor to the name. I got you. Um.

[01:44:35] Anyway. Sorry. So. Um. But. But. But. I. I. I think that what we see actually now is. Communities of color are like. No. We're not giving you the pass. So you can get them. We're going to demand. You be a candidate for us. And. But with that. White voters are like. Okay. But then it becomes very easy to cordon you off as like. You're just the whatever candidate. So. Candidates of color. I think actually have an even harder burden in front of them right now.

[01:45:05] That is. How do you. Win over your community. Because no one. Because. Because not only will you lose votes within your community. People will say. Well if he can't even carry his community. Right. Like that's the argument. And how do you make sure that the broader. And therefore whiter audience. Doesn't think. Okay. Well then. That person's not going to be for us. So I think. A new black president. Would need to contend with that dynamic.

[01:45:34] That I just don't think was present for Obama in the same way. And I think that. There will be an expectation of. You know. I think. Again. There's this. You know. There's just the challenge. That is. How do. We. Look at. A black candidate. Particularly one. Both Obama. And. Harris. Were biracial. Which means. That there.

[01:46:04] Were different. Stereotypes. And. Challenges. That were put in front of them. But. There are. Some. That would be. If a. You know. Black American. Who was not biracial. Ran. There would be. Different things. That they would have to contend with. And we haven't seen those. In the same way. Right. So I think. There's a set of things. That we just. We have not. As. A collective. Grappled with.

[01:46:34] And we maybe. Have tricked ourselves. Into thinking. That we have. Because we have had. We've been able to elect. Black people. And then. I would say. The final thing. Is something. I think about a lot. Because. I think we're seeing. A moment right now. And I'll speak to the Democratic Party. Because that's. Obviously who I work with. But I. Can imagine. There's similar themes. Outside of it. That. We're watching. A moment. Where there are. There's a. There's sort of a. Progressive. Versus centrist. Debate. That I think. It's oversimplified.

[01:47:04] Sometimes. But. I do think that. There is. A way in which. Black candidates. For a very long time. Have been told. You to the establishment. That is how you were going. To be successful. You're going to get elected. You're going to get access. To any of the kind of network. That you need. In order to do this. And. People already think. You're a radical. Because you're. Just by virtue of being black. You're contending. With the assumption. That you're more radical. Than everybody else.

[01:47:34] So you actually. Your biggest thing. Is you need to prove. That you. Can. Like. That you're not going to come in. And scare everybody. And now we're in a political moment. Where. That. Is seen as. You're wildly out of step. And the fact that you ever have those views. Means I don't trust your views now. And so. One of the things I often will challenge voters to. When I say this as. Someone who is. Very far left. Within the party. I. I.

[01:48:04] Vote for and support. Progressive candidates. But one of the things I always want to do. Is have grace for. The candidates of color. And especially the black candidates. Who took positions. That are now. To the right. Within the party. But. At. At the times they were doing a lot of these things. Were probably political realities. For them. Like I think that it's very. It's great. But it's not everyone's experience. That they could have gotten elected. As a democratic socialist.

[01:48:34] 20 years ago. And kept a job. Right. So I just. I always want people to be conscious. Of the different things. That are. Asked for. Of different leaders. Because. Without doing that. You will wind up. With a very biased outlook. Even though you think you're being very neutral. All right. So Cuomo's getting a little impatient. So let me. I'm going to cut down. I do want to ask this question. Before I ask you a political one. What do you want readers of the book. To take away from it?

[01:49:04] So I would say. For the people who. Felt the way I did. That felt. Uncomfortable with the conversation. Around authenticity. And maybe felt like. They alone. Were having that reaction. I want them to feel. Less alone. I want them to know that other people. Are having that same experience. And it's not them. You know. And that there. There is a different way to talk about authenticity. That might feel more accessible for them. So the first thing I want. Is for people who have had this experience. To feel less alone.

[01:49:34] And then for everybody else. I want us to think. Critically. About. What we are asking for. When we ask people to. Be authentic. What are we are saying. When we say. That person doesn't seem authentic. And to think. Like to really think. About. Well. How much of our bias. Is playing a role in that. And what that should mean. Yeah. All right. So I'm going to ask you this political question. And I got a challenge for you at the end. Okay. Democrats in 2026.

[01:50:03] Believe they will make significant gains in Congress. So on a scale. Will it be a blue tsunami. A blue wave. Or a blue high tide. Hmm. You know what? Honestly. I feel like. Hope. And radical hope. Is like a. It's. Just. It's something I have to have. In this. Work. So. I do feel like I come by it. Honestly.

[01:50:32] I am feeling. Like a blue tsunami. I genuinely think right now. That the Democrats are going to take. The House. And I think they're going to take the Senate. And I think that we are going to see. A final two years of a Trump presidency. Where there are true mechanisms of accountability. Now. I say. I think there's going to be a blue tsunami. It will be blue. How effective it is. Is entirely about.

[01:51:01] Who is going to come to that table. And what kind of energy they are going to bring. And if. An outpouring of support. Frustration. Anger. A genuine demand. For. Things going better. Is what. Ushers them into power. Then they owe a debt. To every one of those voters. And the way that people govern. Has to be bigger. Than. I'm sorry. We'll go back to 2023. 2023. The idea. That right now.

[01:51:32] Sort of. Plan on the table is. We'll roll back tariffs. And we'll. Undo. You know. The. We'll. You know. We'll redo the. Obama. Tax credits. For the ACA. This is not a. Let's go back to 2023 moment. And if. If this victory is ushered in. By people who are saying. I. Can't afford my life. And I deserve better. We. Should not be. Having people go bankrupt. Over.

[01:52:02] Curable illnesses. We. I. I cannot deal with the rollbacks of DEI. And what it means for me at work. And what's been going on. Then. We owe more. To voters. Than that. So I will say. I feel very optimistic about the win. I feel. A lot of. Like. Righteous. Demand. For how. They wield that power. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's. I think that's a sentiment for a lot of us.

[01:52:32] I think we're going to get a Fetterman proof. Senate. And I think we're going to. We're going to. It's going to be an amazing turnover in the house. Yes. Yes. That's just me. Oh. Fetterman proofs that it would be. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's finish this sentence. I have hope because. I have hope. Because. We have been. In. Bad. Situations before.

[01:53:02] And we're here now. And I feel like we have. It's hard right now. Because I feel like we have for a very long time. I'll speak to my generation. Have been in a period of. We're reaping the rewards. Of what other people fought for. And we're going to have to do some of the fighting. And some of the planting. For the next generation of people. We're going to reap. And so I think it feels right now. Like. How do we ever get out of this? And everything is being rolled back.

[01:53:31] But what I always try to remind people. When I'm working with them. Is that. There was a moment. During. Like. Brown v. Board of Education. That. People were like. We're going to lose this case. We're going to lose this case. And we're going to lose it because. You know. That guy shouldn't be arguing it. Because people didn't know. Thurgood Marshall wasn't Thurgood Marshall yet. Or. We're going to lose this case. People aren't ready for segregation. For segregation. Right. All of these things that we would now go. That's ridiculous.

[01:54:01] He's Thurgood Marshall. That's ridiculous. Look at how the country. Thrived since then. The things that we now look back on. And would laugh at. Were the things that scared them. In the moment. And if that can be true then. What scares us right now. Will one day be laughable to someone. The idea that this would be. What takes us down. The idea that. There wouldn't be. A next period. Of. Fighting for justice. And rights. And victory.

[01:54:32] They would look at that. And go. Obviously. How could they have ever thought that. Because of where we are. And so I think we just have to remember. That that. This is the speed. But also. The direction of progress. Well Maya Rupert. You have lived up to your title. Of your book. You are a real one. And I. I am honored. Again. To tell you that. To. To tell you that. I'm honored to. Have you on the podcast.

[01:55:01] If people want to get the copy. Of the book. The real ones. If people want to reach out to you. How can they do that? The real ones. Is out in the world. Right now. So you can. Go to your local bookstores. Libraries. And all. You can also order it online. Wherever you tend to buy books. You're welcome to come to my website. Which is. MayaRupert.com. You can order it there. And also reach out to me. I am active on social media. I am. MayaRupert. One word. On Twitter. And Blue Sky. And Maya.Rupert.

[01:55:30] On Instagram. So yeah. I'm around. And. I'm always happy to talk about this stuff. So seriously. Eric. Thank you for having me on. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Maya. Again. I thank you. And I thank Cuomo. For allowing us to have this conversation. She's very generous. So my rule is. Is that once you've been on. You have an open invitation to come back. So I look forward to having that opportunity. Pick your brain a little more.

[01:56:00] Especially about the politics that's going on. There were some questions I cut out. But I said. Based on the vibe we were going. I can save that for another day. Absolutely. But again. Just thank you for. For taking the time out. And doing this. Thank you so much. Seriously. This was so much fun. And I would love to come back. All right guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side. Right.

[01:56:36] And we are back. And so. I want to thank. Intasar Rob. And. Maya.Rupert. For coming on the podcast. Those two sisters. Are. One of. Are the. The reasons why. I really should have a video podcast. Because. You could. I hope you can hear it in their voices. But. You know. To see. The.

[01:57:05] The. The joy. And. The peace that. Those sisters have. And talking about their respective subjects. And. You know. Just. Their overall demeanor. It was. It would. You know. I'm. I'm. The dinosaur. In the room. I like. The audio format. And. Like. I tell them. I have a face. A radio. A radio. And so. I don't really want to. Terrify folks.

[01:57:35] With the videos. Every now and then. I try to drop a few videos. On YouTube. Yeah. So. But it was. There's. There's some technical challenges with that. And so. Once I work that out. I might start doing some. Videos. Like doing. This part of the show. Strictly on video. But until then. We're going to keep it going. Do this audio only podcast. And.

[01:58:06] You know. Just keep bringing good guests. Like those ladies. To you. I hope you learned a lot from them. Either one of them. I mean. I stretched it out. As far as I could. As far as time. For both of them. But I really. Greatly. Appreciate their graciousness. In allowing that conversation to flow. And. And to get as much as I could. Out of them.

[01:58:38] Real quick. You know. I talked about in the intro. About supporting. Black podcasters. And all that. And. I have made my appeal. For you all to listen. And pay attention to. Independent podcasters. That are out there. Because. How perilous the times are. And how. The administration. Is cracking down.

[01:59:09] So this week. We saw that come to light. The president. Of the United States. Has banned. Certain news outlets. Three in particular. CNN. MSNOW. And Politico. From. Coming to the White House. It was so. It wasn't sad.

[01:59:38] But it was kind of like. Wow. You know. The young lady. She went to work. On Saturday. Now he had said it. But. I think he said it. Like on Thursday. Or Friday. I guess. And he said it. And. But they didn't kick anybody out. Right. At that point. He let everybody stay. So he could do his thing. And then. And then. Saturday morning.

[02:00:07] Young lady from MSNOW. Showed up. Doing her job. Tried to go through the checkpoint. The badge didn't go through. And that's when they told her. That she had no longer had access. And took her badge. So it's official. The president of the United States. Has banned. Certain news outlets. From coming into the White House. Now.

[02:00:37] That experiment had already. Happened at the Pentagon. With Mr. Hegseth. And. The press corps. At the Pentagon. Just. Left. They. You know. They tried to tell them. What they could cover. What they couldn't cover. Where they could sit. What they could. You know. It was just. You know. Cram up with all these. Crazy rules. And then they wanted to change. Where they were sitting. All that stuff. So the press corps.

[02:01:05] That was assigned to the Pentagon. Just said. Yeah. No. We're not coming back. Now. They're still reporting. On stuff. But. They're not going. To the Pentagon. To. To cover press conferences. And all that. Which is probably why. Hexf. Has not really had a press conference. Because. The pool is not there. There. So. Yeah. So they. You know. That. That.

[02:01:34] That press corps. Has already. Gone through that. But. Nobody was banned. They just. Were trying to make it inconvenient. For them. And that was enough. For that group. To say no. We're not. Going to do that. So. Now that. The president. Has actually. Banned. News outlets. From. And he. He's done this before. And he. Did the dance. With CNN.

[02:02:04] If you remember. Jim Acosta. It was right around. The same time. During his term. During the midterm year. Jim Acosta. Asked him a question. About Russia. He got mad. And he basically. Kicked him out. And said. He can't cover. He can't come to the White House. And so. I guess CNN. Said. Well if we send somebody else. And he said. I don't want y'all coming. So they. You know. Filed a lawsuit.

[02:02:34] And Mr. Acosta. Was allowed to come back. Because that's a violation. Of the very first amendment. To the Constitution. Right. Freedom of the press. And. You know. But now. He didn't get mad. About something. You know. Because everybody's trying to figure out. Which story. Triggered that. You know. Politico. Saying. Was it our coverage on this. And MS Now. Was it our coverage on that. And CNN. Was it our coverage on this.

[02:03:05] I just think. That the man. Realizes. That. The wagons. Are circling around him. And he's. Doing what. Dictators do. When. Their time's running out. Or. Wannabe dictators. And. You know. He's trying to control the press. He's trying to. Create all these monuments. To his legacy. And yada yada yada. Right.

[02:03:36] You know. He's. He's. He's having midterm. Election conventions. Yeah. I mean. Just. You know. He's just going through the thing. And then. We had. Tom Massey. The. Republican from Congress. I mean. From Kentucky. In Congress. You know. Had. Started. A. Draft resolution. To. Impeach. Hexf.

[02:04:06] And the speaker of the house. Shut the house down. So now. The house won't convene. Until after the midterms. Uh. Which. You know. For the incumbents. That's an advantage for them. More days to campaign. But. You know. They're not working. The Senate is still in session.

[02:04:36] Not for long. But they're still in session. Until. You know. The election cycle kicks in. For them. When they. When they leave. Which will probably be. Next week or so. But. Yeah. But. You know. And then. I heard the speaker. Talking about. Well. You know. We've done all these bills. And. You know. Now. They haven't passed in the Senate. But we've done all this stuff. You haven't done anything of substance.

[02:05:06] Let's be clear. No matter how you spin it. No matter how you. Rationalize it in your mind. Mike Johnson. You are the worst speaker of the house. In the history of America. Full stop. Because. And my reason has always been. Because. You capitulated to the president. You're basically. Doing whatever he wants.

[02:05:36] Instead of doing what's in the best interest of the house. Which is supposed to be. The body of the people. So you're not looking out for the best interest of the nation. You know. In your mind. If you think. Sucking up to Trump. Is in the best interest of the nation. Well. That's your warped mindset. But that's not the role of the speaker of the house. Of all the people in that building.

[02:06:05] In that white dome building. You're the one that can tell the president no. Without any repercussions. Right. Or. There could be attempts. Jobs. You know. There have been speakers that have been beaten in elections. But. If the president and the vice president. Are no longer. Capable of doing the job. Then guess who is next.

[02:06:35] Do we really want a guy. That has no backbone. To be in line. In succession for the presidency. We're in a bad way. Right. You know. All of us are out here. Hustling and struggling. And. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. To take care of our expenses. Our bills. To try to live a normal life. You know. We're still trying to do the basic stuff.

[02:07:05] You know. Make sure our family is fed. Make sure we got gas in the car. To get to work. Make sure that we still have a job. Right. So you know. And we. We're struggling just to. To deal with escapism. Right. Whether it's watching a football game. Going to a movie. Or whatever. That's. Been a struggle. So. You know. We've been playing all these games.

[02:07:36] Just so we can. Get away from the pain. Of the everyday struggle. Right. It's a. It's rough out here. It's rough. I'm speaking. I'm not. On some high perch. Somewhere. I'm struggling. Just like everybody else. So. You know.

[02:08:05] Until we get. Leadership. Real American leadership. In Congress. And in the White House. But we got away two more years from that. It's going to be a problem. And. Until we get some men and women. An overwhelming majority of them. In those positions. To tell the president. No. To hold him accountable.

[02:08:35] Maybe even to get him out. You know. I was just sitting there thinking about. What the scenario would be. If they managed to get enough votes. To impeach him. Then that means. J.D. Vance would be the president. Then who would be the vice president. Would it be Rubio. You know. You know. I was just playing with those thoughts in my mind. Because. If.

[02:09:05] Mike Johnson thought there were enough votes. To impeach Hexer. If. Hakeem Jeffries. Is going to say. Well. I'm definitely going to have enough votes. To impeach Trump. Right. Because a lot of those folks. That are in the building right now. Will not be back in January. So. You know. And everybody's playing all these scenarios out. Are the elections going to be fair. Right.

[02:09:34] Are they going to have FBI agents. ICE agents. Out there trying to intimidate voters. Right. Are the postal workers going to do. I mean. The postal service. The postmaster general. For the nation. Wants to quit his job. Because. Between. You know. The president. Putting pressure on. About mail-in ballots. Except for his. Of course. And. And the courts. Basically telling them. What they can or cannot do.

[02:10:05] You know. He's basically saying. I didn't sign up for all that. Plus. The post office is losing money. So. You know. He said. I didn't sign up for all that. So. He's trying to get out. And. Obviously. President told him. Dog. You don't go nowhere. So. You know. There's that. And.

[02:10:38] Yeah. The wagons are circling. Oh. I didn't mention about the young lady. I don't know her name. And she's been on the news. The Republican congresswoman from Florida. Who. Did a commercial in front of the White House. That basically said. Donald Trump. You're wrong on your immigration policy. That was the first shot. Over the battle. And now. You're going to start seeing other congressional people.

[02:11:08] As it starts getting closer. To start. Peeling away. From the president. Because they want to get reelected. Yeah. It's just. Political game. It's like. You know. You know. You support your guy to be president. And then in the midterm. If that president is not very popular. Then you campaign against that president. Right. You start touting your independence.

[02:11:40] That's just how it goes. For Donald Trump. That's driving him nuts. Because it's all about loyalty to him. Fealty to him. So. You know. When you have somebody like this sister in Florida. Breaking away. You know. Which. Should be a reminder to everybody. That Angie Nixon. Is probably going to win. He's probably going to be. The U.S.

[02:12:09] Senator out of Florida. It's. This. This thing is going to be amazing. In my mind. Now. You know. There's no telling what tricks will happen. We still haven't got to October yet. So. The dreaded October surprise is yet to come. But. The way things are going right now. It's going to happen. You know.

[02:12:39] For those of you who know me. You know. I'm a big sports fan. And one of the big stories. This. This past weekend. Was. The former coach of Ole Miss. Who basically built a team that Ole Miss has now. Was coming back. With his new team. LSU. To play at Ole Miss. Those of us who like. The underdog.

[02:13:08] Because Ole Miss was the underdog. Even though they were playing at home. And they were playing with a chip on his shoulder. Because their coach. And some of those players. Left. With him. To LSU. Uh. Yeah. We were rooting for. A lot of people in the nation. Was rooting for Ole Miss. They were rooting for Mississippi. Which is always. A great thing. If we could ever get the nation.

[02:13:38] To get by in Mississippi. For. Any reason. It's. It's. It's a beautiful thing. But. You know. It looked like it was going to be. A statement game. And then. LSU came back. And tied it up. But then Ole Miss won. And. Because the two people. That he couldn't get. Well. Three people. That. The coach from LSU.

[02:14:08] Did not get to come with him. Was. The guy who's now the coach at Ole Miss. The quarterback at Ole Miss. And the kicker at Ole Miss. Couldn't get them guys to transfer with him. And that cost them. Right. Those. Those three individuals alone. Let alone the rest of the players on the team. But. Uh. They won. They won. And. To me. That was the indication.

[02:14:37] Of what's going to happen. No matter how much noise. No matter how much money. The Republicans are going to put in there. The Democrats are going to win. The people are going to win. The underdogs are going to win. And. You know. Their. Their ignorant arrogance. Is going to be their weakness. Young sister who is a state senator. In Georgia.

[02:15:06] I can't ever remember her name. But she was. Uh. She's Palestinian. And she was. Asked to. She was. She was supposed to speak at the National Convention. She. She didn't. But she's. She's in the state legislature. In. In Georgia. And. Oh. Rick Jackson showed up at a festival. Of.

[02:15:36] Islamic people. In her district. Now he's been talking about kicking everybody out. Now he. He can't do that because he's a governor of a state. He has no immigration power whatsoever. And. But. You know. He's. Spouting the same thing. Because he wants Trump to like him. And.

[02:16:06] She posted a video of her. Coming up to him. First of all. He didn't acknowledge who she was. And before. He was even cognizant. Maybe to acknowledge who she was. One of his staffers. Came in between. And then said something. Really really crazy. Uh. Mr. Jackson came here to talk to voters.

[02:16:36] So you told. The state senator. Of the district that you are in. That you don't want to talk to her. Or don't even want to acknowledge her presence. But you want to talk to her constituents. Right. Yeah. So maybe in another time. Where people were more gullible. And more tolerant. You get away with that.

[02:17:07] But it's 2026. And folks ain't going for that. She posted that online. And to be honest. Brother Jackson looked like he didn't know where he was. What he was doing. And. You know. It was just like. He had this detail of. Security officers and all that. You know. And. And they were trying to. Kind of manhandle. The senator. Until the senator said. Hey. I'm the senator from this district.

[02:17:37] Before she even going to say. Get your hands off me. They understood what that meant. So it was like. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I want to keep my job. Right. But you know. The little arrogant white woman. That was the staffer. Was like saying. Well he's here to talk to voters. Now. She could have flexed. And shut it down. Said. You're not going to talk to voters here.

[02:18:09] Sue me. That's what y'all do. You know. You want to ban people. In the press. I could deny you access to a festival. That's going on in my district. With my people. My literal people. Right. But you know. She got the video. And she posted it. And people have been commenting. And of course. You know.

[02:18:41] The acolytes. Of. The president. And. Those of his ilk. Were like saying. Oh. Well why you got this towel on your head. And you know. All sorts of crazy stuff. And people were just dragging them. On the internet. And. That's what you're going to have to do. With them on election day. You're going to have to drag them. Going to have to. Some elections. Are going to be closer than others. Because where people are congregated. Where these folks. Live.

[02:19:12] But. You know. Foghorn Leghorn. The senator from. Senator Kennedy. From Louisiana. Said it best. He said. You know. The states that we're campaigning in now. Should be fat boy layups. The states that he has to go speak in. Kansas. And Iowa. Nebraska. Those are supposed to be locks. For the Republicans.

[02:19:41] That was the reason why people said. Yeah. The Democrats are not going to take over the Senate. Based on. The lay of the land. Going into this election. But now. Every state is in play. Which is the way. It really should be. If people really pay attention. To what's going on. Every state should be in play. So. Kansas. Nebraska. Iowa. There's a good chance. The Democrats could win all three of those. And then.

[02:20:10] If Angie wins in Florida. And then. Roy wins in New York Carolina. Ossoff holds. Serve in Georgia. Scott wins in Mississippi. You know. It's a new day. Hey. People are tired. They are tired. Of struggling. Will everything be fixed. Within the next two years. Probably not. But people need to have some hope.

[02:20:38] People need to see some movement. People need to see their government. Working for them. Instead of against them. You know. I'm more pragmatic. About things. Because. I've. Actually had to take the oath. And actually had to serve. Right. So. I don't want to diminish people. Who are more optimistic. Than me. But I will say this.

[02:21:09] We've got to change. The board. I don't think. It's an extreme statement. To say that all 435 members. Should be Democrats. Of the house. I don't. Because that's how dire. The situation is. At this point. If you were one of those people. That raised your hand. And pledged allegiance. To Donald Trump. At that midterm convention.

[02:21:39] Whether you were physically there. Or watching on the TV. Your. Your time. In government service. Was over. When you did that. If you politically. Are afraid. To stand up to the president. United States. When you know. That he is wrong. Your time for service. And the federal government. Is over with. It's done. And the people. Should. Send you home.

[02:22:10] And there. Should be no equivocation. About that. It's time. The president knows it. The wagons are circling. He can see it. And that's why he's doing. X, Y, and Z. You want to tear down a building. And I am so glad. Oh my God. I am so glad. That a Kennedy. Got on national television. And said something about. Him trying to tear down a building. That's. Honoring. John F. Kennedy.

[02:22:40] It's a memorial. To John F. Kennedy. It's more than. It's not just a theater. With his name on it. It is a memorial. Just like the Lincoln Memorial. Just like the Jefferson Memorial. Just like the King Memorial. It's a memorial. To him. And the way that they wanted to do. They wanted to be a living memorial. So they made it an art center.

[02:23:12] And Donald Trump just wants to tear down. Because he can't put his name on it. That's where we are. And we got to get these people out. But I am so glad that a Kennedy spoke. Because he said that crazy stuff. And Robert Kennedy Jr. Was standing behind him.

[02:23:43] And even Trump kind of. Acknowledged. He was being. A little audacious to say it in front of him. But when you control somebody. You can play that game. When you know that person is not going to do anything to you. You can be audacious. When he's sitting there. I love the robe you're wearing emperor. Even though you're butt ass naked.

[02:24:15] You have the delusion. That you can do whatever you want. So. On the first Tuesday in November. 2026 ladies and gentlemen. We can bring that person back to reality. We can change. This nation. We can change the trajectory. Of where we're going. The real no Kings Day. It's going to be the first Tuesday in November.

[02:24:44] 2026. And I need you to get out there. And I need you to vote accordingly. It's time for these people to go. It's time for all these folks. To get put back in check. That have been emboldened in their ignorance and stupidity. You know I was talking to. Miss Rupert. And we were talking about code switching.

[02:25:14] Well it's time for those folks. To understand what code switching is. All that crazy. Them being themselves. And being Karens and Kins out here. And harassing black folks. And brown folks. And all that stuff. Yeah it's time for them to code switch. And get back to being. Decent and normal. Right.

[02:25:42] They want to meet at their local tavern. Or bike club. Or wherever they hang out. Gun club. Whatever they hang out. Country club. Whatever. Have conversations. Knock yourself out. But in public. And in public service. You're all about to code switch. You're all about to get your language right. You're about to. Understand. Law and order really means.

[02:26:14] Because if you. Had that concept. You'd have forgot it. Or thought you were above it. But it's time for you all to code switch now. And the only way that can happen. Ladies and gentlemen. Is that you get out there. And vote accordingly. And vote these people out. Send them home. They used to say at the club. You ain't got to go home. But you got to get the hell up out of here.

[02:26:44] That's the mindset we need to have going into the polls. We got to get them the hell up out of there. Don't care where they go. Don't care where they land. But we got to get them out of office. All right. That's all I got. Thank you all for listening. Until next time.

[02:27:43] NBG Podcast Network.