Host Erik Fleming guides conversations on current events and politics: Kaivan Shroff on Democratic strategy and the Iran conflict, Louise Story and Ebony Reed on the Black–white wealth gap (15 Cents on the Dollar), and Elizabeth "Libby" Jamison on veterans and military family advocacy.
The episode combines news highlights, deep reporting, and personal stories about elections, economic inequality, and the challenges facing military families, offering context and perspectives for engaged listeners.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
00:00:06 --> 00:00:08 I want to personally thank you for listening to the podcast.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:12 If you like what you're hearing, then I need you to do a few things.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:19 First, I need subscribers. I'm on Patreon at patreon.com slash amomentwitherikfleming.
00:00:19 --> 00:00:24 Your subscription allows an independent podcaster like me the freedom to speak
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 truth to power, and to expand and improve the show.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:32 Second, leave a five-star review for the podcast on the streaming service you
00:00:32 --> 00:00:35 listen to it. That will help the podcast tremendously.
00:00:36 --> 00:00:41 Third, go to the website, momenterik.com. There you can subscribe to the podcast,
00:00:42 --> 00:00:47 leave reviews and comments, listen to past episodes, and even learn a little bit about your host.
00:00:47 --> 00:00:51 Lastly, don't keep this a secret like it's your own personal guilty pleasure.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:57 Tell someone else about the podcast. Encourage others to listen to the podcast
00:00:57 --> 00:01:02 and share the podcast on your social media platforms, because it is time to
00:01:02 --> 00:01:04 make this moment a movement.
00:01:04 --> 00:01:10 Thanks in advance for supporting the podcast of our time. I hope you enjoy this episode as well.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:20 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello, and welcome to In the Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:10 And so this episode is a jam-packed episode.
00:02:10 --> 00:02:18 I am very, very honored to have an incredible combination of a returning guest,
00:02:18 --> 00:02:27 a young man who I respect and admire for his political knowledge and savvy and
00:02:27 --> 00:02:31 his frankness as far as how elections go.
00:02:33 --> 00:02:42 Then I have two ladies who I had been pursuing for a couple of years to finally come on the show,
00:02:42 --> 00:02:50 and it was worth every minute talking to them about a theme that seems to have
00:02:50 --> 00:02:54 been going on for the last couple of episodes dealing with black wealth.
00:02:55 --> 00:03:01 And then I have a first-time guest, another young lady, who's going to talk
00:03:01 --> 00:03:07 about the perspective of veterans and their families.
00:03:08 --> 00:03:15 So I hope that you will be enriched by the conversations that you hear today
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 and that you always get something out of this podcast.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 And if you do get something out of this podcast, please support it.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:34 Subscribe, tell your friends, whatever. You can go to www.momenterik.com and
00:03:34 --> 00:03:37 do all those cool things, right?
00:03:37 --> 00:03:41 If you want to get caught up in some past episodes, learn a little bit about
00:03:41 --> 00:03:43 me, feel free to go to the website.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:52 So, yeah, I think I got everybody caught up It was a heck of a week And we'll
00:03:52 --> 00:03:56 talk about that once we get through the interviews But right now,
00:03:56 --> 00:03:59 let's go ahead and kick this program off And as always,
00:04:00 --> 00:04:03 we kick it off with a moment of news With Grace G.
00:04:09 --> 00:04:15 Thanks, Erik. President Trump dismissed Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem
00:04:15 --> 00:04:21 following multiple controversies and nominated Senator Mark Wayne Mullen as her successor.
00:04:22 --> 00:04:26 Following a massive joint U.S.-Israeli operation that killed Supreme Leader
00:04:26 --> 00:04:32 Ali Khamenei and several top military officials, Iran launched retaliatory missile
00:04:32 --> 00:04:34 strikes across the region, while the U.S.
00:04:34 --> 00:04:39 Confirmed it has struck over 1 targets and sustained six troop fatalities.
00:04:39 --> 00:04:44 Congressional Republicans voted to block bipartisan resolutions that aimed to
00:04:44 --> 00:04:47 halt President Trump's military operations against Iran.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:53 John Cornyn and Ken Paxton advanced to a Texas Republican Senate runoff,
00:04:53 --> 00:04:58 while James Tallarico secured the Democratic Senate nomination over Jasmine Crockett.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:03 Democrat Roy Cooper and Republican Michael Whatley won North Carolina's Senate
00:05:03 --> 00:05:10 primaries, while Congresswoman Valerie Fouchy survived a tight primary challenge from Nita Alam.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:15 A mass shooting at a bar in Austin, Texas left three people dead and 14 others
00:05:15 --> 00:05:20 injured before the unidentified suspect was killed in a shootout with police.
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 The U.S. Justice Department has expanded its criminal case to 39 defendants,
00:05:25 --> 00:05:30 charging them with conspiracy and obstructing religious worship during a takeover-style
00:05:30 --> 00:05:33 anti-ice protest at a St. Paul church.
00:05:33 --> 00:05:38 Hennepin County Attorney Mary Moriarty has launched an investigation into potential
00:05:38 --> 00:05:43 criminal acts by federal agents during a recent immigration crackdown that resulted
00:05:43 --> 00:05:46 in the deaths of Renee Good and Alex Pretti.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:51 A federal judge issued a preliminary injunction to block a Trump administration
00:05:51 --> 00:05:57 initiative aimed at arresting and detaining 5 refugees in Minnesota who
00:05:57 --> 00:05:59 had not yet obtained their green cards.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:03 The U.S. Supreme Court reinstated the boundaries of a Staten Island congressional
00:06:03 --> 00:06:08 district, overruling a lower court's decision that the map racially discriminated
00:06:08 --> 00:06:10 against Black and Latino voters.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:16 And South Carolina's measles outbreak has reached 990 cases.
00:06:16 --> 00:06:20 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:32 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for
00:06:32 --> 00:06:34 my guest, Kaivan Shroff.
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 Kaivan Shroff is an American political activist, commentator,
00:06:38 --> 00:06:41 and social media influencer based in Manhattan, New York.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:49 He is a senior advisor at the Institute for Education and an NY-based public interest attorney.
00:06:49 --> 00:06:55 Shroff appears frequently on CNN, Scripps News, and a range of other news programs.
00:06:56 --> 00:07:00 He is a contributor for HuffPost, the Boston Globe, The Hill, and more.
00:07:01 --> 00:07:05 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 on this podcast, Kaivan Shroff.
00:07:19 --> 00:07:23 All right, Kaivan Shroff, how you doing?
00:07:23 --> 00:07:28 Good, great to join. It's been too long. Yeah, it's been a moment,
00:07:28 --> 00:07:32 but I wanted to make sure I applied my rule that once you've been on,
00:07:33 --> 00:07:35 you've got an invitation to come back.
00:07:36 --> 00:07:41 Thank you. And like I said earlier, when we were getting set up,
00:07:41 --> 00:07:45 you've gone big time since the last time I talked to you, man. So I'm really proud.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:52 It's like I'm seeing you on everything, everywhere, and spreading the good news about Democrats.
00:07:52 --> 00:07:56 And sometimes I'm the bad news, but at least you're out there.
00:07:56 --> 00:07:59 No shortage of news, that we can say.
00:08:01 --> 00:08:05 Yeah, and I'm also honored that you took the time out to come on here.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:08 So let's go ahead and get this thing started.
00:08:08 --> 00:08:11 First thing I want you to do is respond to a quote.
00:08:12 --> 00:08:17 And here's the quote. Right now, Democrats are struggling with a question that
00:08:17 --> 00:08:25 they rarely confront directly, how to balance moral clarity with electoral reality.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:30 Yeah, I think, you know, is that what I wrote?
00:08:30 --> 00:08:35 I just wrote. Yeah, OK. It sounds like a couple days ago I had that piece on
00:08:35 --> 00:08:41 Hillary Clinton and how she came back really into the scene because of some of this Epstein stuff.
00:08:41 --> 00:08:45 But also we've been seeing her raise her profile generally around this,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:48 you know, talking about foreign affairs, talking about migration,
00:08:49 --> 00:08:53 saying certain things that you wouldn't hear, you know, an ambitious Democrat
00:08:53 --> 00:08:57 say today because they're worried about alienating parts of the base.
00:08:57 --> 00:09:03 But the reality is, we know that voters don't trust Democrats on issues like immigration.
00:09:03 --> 00:09:07 So we do need somebody that's able to, like I said,
00:09:07 --> 00:09:14 you know, balance the vision of the most pure moral outcomes that we can come
00:09:14 --> 00:09:18 up with, which I think we a lot of people really are motivated by with what
00:09:18 --> 00:09:21 can actually get done in the moment without, of course,
00:09:21 --> 00:09:25 sacrificing our democracy, which I think is really on the table in these recent
00:09:25 --> 00:09:28 elections and the upcoming ones. So I think that's really key.
00:09:29 --> 00:09:33 And what makes me scared, honestly, talking about the state of the Democratic
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 Party is it does seem that there is no leadership, you know.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:41 Among the figures with the largest voices, right?
00:09:41 --> 00:09:46 Like Gavin Newsom or, you know, pick a different 2028 contender not to pick
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 on him. people are not telling hard truths. They are not saying things that
00:09:51 --> 00:09:53 they don't think will resonate online.
00:09:53 --> 00:09:58 And I think if basically the job of the president or the voice of the party
00:09:58 --> 00:10:03 is to just crowdsource whatever's going viral, like that doesn't really mean much.
00:10:04 --> 00:10:08 Whereas you look at a figure like a Hillary Clinton, they don't really exist
00:10:08 --> 00:10:11 anymore. I mean, in America, those types of leaders.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:15 So I think it's a loss. And I guess I just worry that without that sort of,
00:10:15 --> 00:10:22 you know, thoughtful, offline leadership, I'm not sure how we will rebuild what
00:10:22 --> 00:10:23 needs to be rebuilt here.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:31 Okay. And I'm going to put a pin on that because I want to get back to that later on.
00:10:32 --> 00:10:37 But something I've added since the last time you've been on is this feature called 20 Questions.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:44 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. Okay, 7.
00:10:45 --> 00:10:49 All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,
00:10:50 --> 00:10:52 current events, health, etc.?
00:10:52 --> 00:10:56 For me, I will say, I know Twitter's been broken for a lot of people,
00:10:56 --> 00:11:01 But I, for the last decade, have really curated a list of about,
00:11:01 --> 00:11:03 you know, a thousand plus journalists,
00:11:04 --> 00:11:08 politicos, those types of people that I really trust in, you know,
00:11:08 --> 00:11:11 each state in across different outlets.
00:11:11 --> 00:11:16 And so I'm able to kind of rely on those voices that I've followed for years
00:11:16 --> 00:11:20 and know now. And I know who I can rely on to make sure they're putting out,
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 you know, honest, accurate information. So for me, that's the best way to get
00:11:23 --> 00:11:25 urgent information. Yeah.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:30 But I do think that for my friends and stuff, I know most of it is also on social
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 media, but on different platforms like Instagram, like TikTok.
00:11:34 --> 00:11:40 And there I will say I often get information, but it's information that I then
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 make sure that I'm double checking and fact checking myself.
00:11:43 --> 00:11:47 So I might see it first on Instagram or somewhere like TikTok,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 but then I'm immediately Googling it myself. So there's a little difference there.
00:11:51 --> 00:11:59 Yeah. All right. So I guess the most immediate thing that's going on right now is the war on Iran.
00:12:00 --> 00:12:05 And I guess all this is going to tie into messaging in some way.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:12 But, you know, me being a former elected official, right, you know,
00:12:12 --> 00:12:17 when people say, well, what's your position on something like that?
00:12:17 --> 00:12:24 It's like, all right, so the bad guy, Khomeini, is gone.
00:12:25 --> 00:12:30 And that's something that people that love democracy or people that,
00:12:30 --> 00:12:37 you know, are not secure about some things are happy that he's not in the picture anymore.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:43 But then the flip side is there's a process to go about doing certain things,
00:12:43 --> 00:12:45 especially if you're going to say, I'm going to war.
00:12:45 --> 00:12:52 And then it's like we went about it all wrong but most of the time when we do
00:12:52 --> 00:12:56 these things right you know we do it wrong.
00:12:57 --> 00:13:03 At least you know when you get a president it does seem so yeah so I'm absolutely and I think,
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 Sorry, I was just going to say beyond, right, just that Khamenei's a bad guy,
00:13:07 --> 00:13:12 it is a little bit of a dynamic of, you know, the devil you know versus the
00:13:12 --> 00:13:18 devil you don't, because there's nothing to say that whoever replaced him won't be worse, right?
00:13:18 --> 00:13:20 We don't know that. And because it's been done, to your point,
00:13:20 --> 00:13:25 in such a scattered, poorly planned way where even the Trump administration
00:13:25 --> 00:13:29 isn't even pretending they have a plan or idea of what's going on,
00:13:29 --> 00:13:31 we don't know how this is going to turn out.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 What we do know is it does make Americans more of a target and less safe.
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43 And, of course, all it seems on behalf of Israel, which has been this issue
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 that's been dogging, I think, the Trump administration.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:49 It obviously hurt Kamala Harris and Joe Biden as well.
00:13:49 --> 00:13:54 But Americans aren't super supportive of getting dragged into these foreign
00:13:54 --> 00:14:02 conflicts. Yeah, the Machiavellian approach, the ends justifying the means is not really popular.
00:14:02 --> 00:14:08 I think the last poll I saw was around a quarter of Americans said, yeah, no.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:13 Well, 75% of Americans basically said, no, this is not the right idea.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:22 We shouldn't have done that. So as Democrats, but it's a struggle.
00:14:22 --> 00:14:32 How do you envision us being able to articulate the double thing that it's like, okay,
00:14:33 --> 00:14:40 we're dealing with terrorism, but we've got to respect the process and we got to make a commitment.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:46 Either we're going to be involved in regime building or nation building or whatever,
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 or we're not going to do that.
00:14:48 --> 00:14:51 So how did how do Democrats get around that?
00:14:52 --> 00:14:56 Yeah, I think, you know, one of the unfortunate things that Trump is successful
00:14:56 --> 00:15:03 at is getting Democrats to focus on these process arguments that voters don't
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04 pay that much attention to.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:09 At the end of the day, voters are not saying, well, did this go up the right channels?
00:15:09 --> 00:15:13 And they're not following and focusing on the nitty gritty of that.
00:15:13 --> 00:15:18 I do still think that on the overall message, it's a winning message.
00:15:18 --> 00:15:21 Unfortunately, it's a terrible situation, but it's a winning message for Democrats
00:15:21 --> 00:15:24 in that it's yet another foreign conflict Trump is starting.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:30 He's really campaigned in 2024 on being, you know, the anti-war candidate.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:34 All of those on the further end of the left of the spectrum were saying Kamala
00:15:34 --> 00:15:39 would be the war hawk, just like, you know, obviously, we're seeing that viral
00:15:39 --> 00:15:42 Maureen Dowd piece make the rounds as Hillary comes back.
00:15:42 --> 00:15:46 And as Donald Trump attacks Iran, Hillary the hawk, Donald the dove,
00:15:46 --> 00:15:50 it's a famous headline at this point from 2016, because it's just so absurd
00:15:50 --> 00:15:57 how voters and the media were able to do that sort of flip and make it sound
00:15:57 --> 00:16:00 like it was the Democrats that were the pro-war party.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 I mean, that's never been true. It's pretty delusional. And yet the messaging
00:16:04 --> 00:16:07 has landed. But now Trump's going to own this. And I will say,
00:16:07 --> 00:16:13 even in 2025, when Democrats had success in the off-cycle elections.
00:16:14 --> 00:16:17 One of the data points that I think should have been a major red flag for the
00:16:17 --> 00:16:21 Trump administration is they were underwater 10 points with young men.
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 And that was a key group that they were going on and on about how they had won in 2024.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:30 And now they're already 10 points underwater with them for the reason,
00:16:30 --> 00:16:34 the very specific reason cited, is because of the increase in all these foreign
00:16:34 --> 00:16:36 conflicts that he said he wouldn't be doing.
00:16:36 --> 00:16:41 So it's a major issue and obviously going to be something that gets worse and
00:16:41 --> 00:16:45 worse, I think, for the administration. the more cavalier they are about it.
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 And as service members continue to die, you know, we're learning,
00:16:49 --> 00:16:52 you know, it seems every day and it hasn't been that many days yet that more
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 and more service members were harmed in this.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 So it's going to be, you know, Benghazi level and maybe bigger.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:06 Yeah. All right. So speaking about bigger, the president had his State of the Union address.
00:17:06 --> 00:17:12 It was the longest State of the Union address in American history. What.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:16 Was your so i'm gonna i i
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 didn't watch it i did not watch it congratulations yeah
00:17:20 --> 00:17:23 i uh you know but i i you know
00:17:23 --> 00:17:26 when i when i was in the legislature there were you know we had
00:17:26 --> 00:17:29 i had a republican governor out of
00:17:29 --> 00:17:32 the nine years maybe five and and
00:17:32 --> 00:17:36 i know that there's a couple of state in the state addresses that
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 i didn't attend because they were
00:17:39 --> 00:17:43 doing something crazy at the time so one should
00:17:43 --> 00:17:47 the democrats have all left that's
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 that's the biggest issue it's like in money born because i
00:17:50 --> 00:17:55 remember the the previous one they had the little paddles and that didn't go
00:17:55 --> 00:18:02 over well with the paddles so then the thing was keem jeffrey said well either
00:18:02 --> 00:18:08 you should come or you You shouldn't and be quiet or you you should not attend.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:15 And so a number of members did not and they had their own state of the union rallies or whatever.
00:18:15 --> 00:18:22 But then the ones that were there, like Al Green and Ilhan Omar, had something to say.
00:18:22 --> 00:18:26 So how would you have advised the Democrats to handle that?
00:18:27 --> 00:18:30 Well, you know, it's sort of a classic prisoner's dilemma dynamic,
00:18:30 --> 00:18:34 I think, where basically, and I think this is what Hakeem Jeffries had in mind,
00:18:34 --> 00:18:39 if all the members that showed up were just quiet, the story would have continued
00:18:39 --> 00:18:41 to be about Trump's failed economy,
00:18:41 --> 00:18:45 about his failed immigration policy, and also there's a lot of ways to speak
00:18:45 --> 00:18:48 through the guests you're bringing, right, Epstein guests, those types of folks.
00:18:48 --> 00:18:50 That would have driven the news.
00:18:51 --> 00:18:55 And especially with a really long, rambling, boring State of the Union.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:58 Trump didn't do anything to change things in his speech.
00:18:58 --> 00:19:03 And so it would have been the default position. I think people are tired of Trump.
00:19:03 --> 00:19:08 They're not popular, the policies that he's put forward. So to let people focus
00:19:08 --> 00:19:11 on that, by the way, for one 24-hour news cycle, because nobody really cares
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 about the State of the Union anymore, and it's very,
00:19:13 --> 00:19:16 you know, it's a boring thing, and then we were going right into the Clinton
00:19:16 --> 00:19:20 testimony anyways, which we knew would change the story.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:25 So I think, you know, everyone, it's kind of a benefit if Democrats can look
00:19:25 --> 00:19:27 like the quote unquote adults in the room.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:31 But that prisoner's dilemma is that everyone also has the individual incentive
00:19:31 --> 00:19:35 to cheat and get more press for themselves and get more attention.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 And, you know, with respect to Al Green, right, he's facing to,
00:19:38 --> 00:19:42 you know, a couple of days ago, he was facing a major primary challenge,
00:19:42 --> 00:19:45 which, you know, it's close.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:50 So when you have those opportunities, you take them when you need that sort
00:19:50 --> 00:19:52 of political moment to happen for you.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:57 But I do think, obviously, that's much more of an individual strategy than what's
00:19:57 --> 00:19:59 best for the Democratic caucus.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:03 Yeah. Yeah, because because then you can give all this fodder to these right
00:20:03 --> 00:20:08 wing, you know, media outlets of running with that little story instead of having
00:20:08 --> 00:20:11 to contend with the fact that Trump rambled on for the longest period ever.
00:20:12 --> 00:20:15 And, you know, didn't really offer a vision for the economy,
00:20:15 --> 00:20:18 all of that. So that's, you know, unfortunate, I think.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:23 I was thinking about I remember it was one year we were playing our rival.
00:20:24 --> 00:20:27 Alcorn stayed in a in a basketball game and
00:20:27 --> 00:20:30 something had happened prior to the
00:20:30 --> 00:20:34 game as far as talks and all the you know trash talk
00:20:34 --> 00:20:40 all that stuff and so when when Alcorn when I think when they were being introduced
00:20:40 --> 00:20:45 or whatever I think all of us had like copies of the student newspaper and we
00:20:45 --> 00:20:50 were all just open a newspaper and just looked like we were reading the newspaper instead of, you know,
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 paying attention to who Alcorn was putting out there on the court,
00:20:54 --> 00:20:58 I just said, I wonder if the Democrats all had like copies of the Wall Street
00:20:58 --> 00:21:02 Journal or something like that and were just sitting there while he was talking,
00:21:02 --> 00:21:06 they would all look like they was reading a paper, how much image-wise that
00:21:06 --> 00:21:08 would come across. I don't know.
00:21:08 --> 00:21:14 I just think there's some more creative ways to demonstrate what we're doing.
00:21:14 --> 00:21:18 And it just seemed kind of scattershot that some people were there and some
00:21:18 --> 00:21:20 people weren't, you know.
00:21:21 --> 00:21:25 And I think like the other thing too, right? Like so much was made and I did
00:21:25 --> 00:21:29 some of it. I joined one of the counter programming, you know, streams.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:32 But the reality is.
00:21:33 --> 00:21:35 Like, yeah, of course, it's cool for somebody like me to get to be chatting
00:21:35 --> 00:21:40 with like XYZ congressperson and like whoever watches. It's nice that they support
00:21:40 --> 00:21:43 what we're saying and that they're excited by our ideas.
00:21:43 --> 00:21:46 But it doesn't move the needle anywhere. It doesn't change anything.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:50 Right. Like most people, you don't have to watch the State of the Union.
00:21:51 --> 00:21:55 It's not like you have to either watch the main one or you have to watch some alternate one.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 If you are watching, you know, the Midas touch counterprogramming State of the
00:21:59 --> 00:22:01 Union, you hate Donald Trump.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:04 You're obsessed with politics. you're probably chronically online.
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 Like, that's an activity you chose to do.
00:22:06 --> 00:22:10 And if you chose to do that activity, we know you're voting for Democrats.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:14 Like, it's just, it's not going to change anything. It's not going to change
00:22:14 --> 00:22:17 the messaging. It's not going to help us reach the types of people we need.
00:22:17 --> 00:22:23 It really only benefits the creators and influencers who are involved, and the politicians.
00:22:23 --> 00:22:28 And I think, like, that's not nothing, but it does seem like so many times, time and time again,
00:22:29 --> 00:22:33 that has been the strategy that Democrats are going with, is to build these
00:22:33 --> 00:22:40 kind of online response to what they see as the right-wing media ecosystem.
00:22:40 --> 00:22:45 But it's actually a fundamentally different project than what the right-wing
00:22:45 --> 00:22:50 has been able to do, which is to have voices like a Joe Rogan who talk about
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 all sorts of topics, right?
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 Or those pod bros, right, that people talk about those guys talk about for three
00:22:56 --> 00:23:01 hours every topic under the sun and then they have a little political bent and
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 they go in on trump or they you know plug something that's very different and
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 much more effective persuasion than what democrats do which is basically have
00:23:08 --> 00:23:12 you know that guy brian tyler cohen or whatever read viral tweets.
00:23:13 --> 00:23:16 And only discuss politics and only bash Donald Trump, right?
00:23:16 --> 00:23:19 Like, you've already captured whatever that audience is.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:23 And yes, like, more people may agree with that, that you find on YouTube and
00:23:23 --> 00:23:25 they're going to follow you.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:28 But you're never going to be winning over a Trump voter. You're never going
00:23:28 --> 00:23:30 to be turning out an independent who didn't show up and vote.
00:23:31 --> 00:23:33 And that's what we need to do. Yeah.
00:23:33 --> 00:23:41 So you're saying I'm not hitting a mag of folks at all. No, we're relying on you.
00:23:43 --> 00:23:51 All right. So today, as we're recording, is, I guess, the first major primary day in the country.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:56 And we've got three states. We've got Arkansas, which nobody seems to be talking about.
00:23:57 --> 00:24:01 Shout out to my former guest, Chris Jones, who's running for Congress up there.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:06 North Carolina and Texas. I wanted to focus a little bit on Texas,
00:24:06 --> 00:24:11 of course, because we got two rising stars in the Democratic Party battling
00:24:11 --> 00:24:14 each other for this coveted U.S. Senate seat.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:21 And the Republicans have the incumbent, a black candidate running,
00:24:21 --> 00:24:28 which is, I think, historic that Texas has two black candidates running for the U.S.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:30 Senate at the same time. And then you have the.
00:24:32 --> 00:24:35 The the the unimpeachable one.
00:24:38 --> 00:24:44 Yeah. So wild. What's your what's your take on Texas and what's going on?
00:24:44 --> 00:24:50 You know, I think I do think that people are overly optimistic in general about
00:24:50 --> 00:24:51 Democrats chances there.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:55 I think we're seeing some positive turnout patterns and people will have to
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 keep diving into what those are and were and what they say about the state as
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00 we head into the general.
00:25:00 --> 00:25:07 But, you know, moreover, this has really become, I think, a really unproductive
00:25:07 --> 00:25:11 proxy battle in the Democratic Party about a lot of issues.
00:25:11 --> 00:25:14 And to me, the main issue is, quote unquote, identity politics,
00:25:14 --> 00:25:19 which I think after 2024, a lot of people,
00:25:19 --> 00:25:25 liberal people, progressive people, either quietly to themselves or even publicly
00:25:25 --> 00:25:28 sort of came away with, I think, a wrong takeaway.
00:25:28 --> 00:25:32 That running diverse candidates is what costs Democrats elections.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:36 They look at, you know, Hillary Clinton lost, Joe Biden won, Kamala Harris lost...
00:25:37 --> 00:25:41 But there's so many other factors going on at the same time that I think it's
00:25:41 --> 00:25:46 actually, it almost reveals a bias that they want that to be the reason because
00:25:46 --> 00:25:52 they don't like that the party's gotten more diverse and that we've had to have more nuanced,
00:25:52 --> 00:25:56 impressive conversations around certain issues. And they want to throw all that away.
00:25:57 --> 00:26:01 You know, one sort of line I've seen come up all the time in this election is
00:26:01 --> 00:26:02 we're not going back to 2018.
00:26:03 --> 00:26:07 As if like, what does that mean? Like, we're not going to listen to diverse
00:26:07 --> 00:26:09 communities and take them seriously.
00:26:10 --> 00:26:14 Of course, nobody's saying that Jasmine Crockett should just win because she's a black woman.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 But it does seem like there's a default on the other side that it's smarter
00:26:18 --> 00:26:23 and better and wiser to run James Tallarico because he's a straight white guy.
00:26:23 --> 00:26:27 And that's less objectionable. And he may be able to win certain types of voters over.
00:26:27 --> 00:26:32 Then the other part of it is if you believe that the same people who believe
00:26:32 --> 00:26:37 that type of thing seem very hypocritical to me because when we're talking about
00:26:37 --> 00:26:39 a candidate like Graham Plattner in Maine, right?
00:26:39 --> 00:26:44 Still love that guy. He is so volatile and has so much drama surrounding him.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:47 He's absolutely not the safe bet candidate, right?
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 So if that's your argument, it really does seem like, okay, in every case,
00:26:52 --> 00:26:54 you find a way to have, you know, the straight board, like white guy,
00:26:55 --> 00:26:58 be the person that you think needs to be the primary winner.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 And whatever the circumstances, you happen to map it on to whoever that candidate
00:27:03 --> 00:27:05 is with no ideological consistency.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:09 And then the other piece of it is that we're seeing a lot of these figures,
00:27:09 --> 00:27:13 whether it's Tim Miller or Josh Barrow, people new to the Democratic Party,
00:27:13 --> 00:27:17 frankly, in the last decade, these media figures, these never Trump voices, you know,
00:27:18 --> 00:27:22 double down and say like anyone that calls out what they see as racism or sexism
00:27:22 --> 00:27:25 against Crockett is weaponizing those things.
00:27:25 --> 00:27:29 And that is just such a reductive, unsophisticated conversation.
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 Absolutely. Jasmine Crockett has been treated, I think,
00:27:33 --> 00:27:36 unfairly by certain people, Well, not by everyone, but yeah,
00:27:36 --> 00:27:39 they were writing about her acrylic nails and her fake eyelashes,
00:27:39 --> 00:27:45 right, as she jumped into the race as a highly successful national figure,
00:27:45 --> 00:27:47 congresswoman, attorney.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:50 That's not what they were focusing on. They were focusing on her appearance,
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52 and they weren't doing that to James Tallarico.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 By the way, that's nothing new. That happens to these diverse candidates all
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 the time, and I absolutely think we need to keep calling it out,
00:27:59 --> 00:28:02 and it's not weaponizing anything. It's having a real conversation.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:11 Yeah. You know, James is a good regional candidate to me.
00:28:11 --> 00:28:16 When I first heard him talk, the first thing I thought about was white Southern
00:28:16 --> 00:28:18 Baptist preacher, right?
00:28:18 --> 00:28:20 And he just happens to be running as a Democrat.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:24 And that plays well in Texas.
00:28:24 --> 00:28:27 That'll play well in Mississippi. That'll play well in Georgia,
00:28:28 --> 00:28:31 Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas. But,
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 You know, when you run in for the U.S. Senate, even though you're running a
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 particular state, that's a national position.
00:28:38 --> 00:28:46 And, you know, I think the more people we get like Jasmine who can reach a base
00:28:46 --> 00:28:51 of people outside of their particular region or state,
00:28:51 --> 00:28:56 that can generate the national attention to the issues that we need to be addressing.
00:28:56 --> 00:29:01 Right. I think that's more plausible and you can win.
00:29:01 --> 00:29:06 You know, and I just remember, I'm trying not to make this about me,
00:29:06 --> 00:29:13 but I remember when we had a black guy, he was, he was Johnny Dupree, a good friend of mine.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 He was the mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi, which is like the fourth largest
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 city in Mississippi at the time.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:23 And he was running against a guy named Bill Luckett, whose best friend was Morgan Freeman.
00:29:23 --> 00:29:26 And they owned a blues club up in Clarksdale, Mississippi.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:32 So Clarksdale is in the second congressional district. Democrats always win
00:29:32 --> 00:29:34 that. I won it big when I ran for the U.S. Senate.
00:29:34 --> 00:29:37 Anybody Democrat is going to win the Southern Congressional District.
00:29:37 --> 00:29:45 But Johnny Dupree in Hattiesburg, he was in the third, which was a swing, right?
00:29:45 --> 00:29:48 The first district and the third district, a strong Democrat can swing it.
00:29:49 --> 00:29:50 Doesn't matter if they're white or black.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 And, you know, I was pushing Johnny as opposed to,
00:29:56 --> 00:30:00 bill. And everybody kept saying, well, you're just pushing Johnny because he's black.
00:30:00 --> 00:30:06 And I said, no, I'm pushing Johnny because Johnny comes from a part of the state that we need to win.
00:30:07 --> 00:30:12 He's been an elected official in that third congressional district for almost 20 years.
00:30:13 --> 00:30:17 It's like he was a county commissioner or supervisor, as we call him,
00:30:18 --> 00:30:20 and then he became the mayor and now he's a
00:30:20 --> 00:30:24 state legislator by the way but it's like
00:30:24 --> 00:30:29 he's he he has he has a history of getting votes in a place where we need to
00:30:29 --> 00:30:36 get votes and so and and you know able to get some money so and then johnny
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 ended up winning the primary right and then you know he got beat in the but
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 it's mississippi still but nonetheless list.
00:30:43 --> 00:30:48 We, you know, the argument that has to be made for candidates like Jasmine Crockett
00:30:48 --> 00:30:53 is don't get hung up on the race, get hung up on the strategy.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:57 Do we need those votes in Harris County and Dallas County?
00:30:57 --> 00:31:03 Where is she the strongest at? And if historically we haven't been getting the
00:31:03 --> 00:31:08 votes or she can tap in the votes that we haven't been able to get in other parts of the state,
00:31:09 --> 00:31:13 why not support her as opposed to the Tallarico or vice versa?
00:31:13 --> 00:31:15 Right. I don't have anything against. Yeah.
00:31:15 --> 00:31:19 I'm saying. Yeah, no, I think that does make sense.
00:31:19 --> 00:31:24 At the same time, I think both candidates were running on this idea that they
00:31:24 --> 00:31:25 could turn out a different type of voter.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:30 And it does look like turnout has exploded. So maybe either or both of them
00:31:30 --> 00:31:32 were correct about that.
00:31:32 --> 00:31:35 And if we see that pattern continue, maybe they can be successful.
00:31:35 --> 00:31:40 I think the bigger issue to me about James, for example, I actually don't have
00:31:40 --> 00:31:43 an issue with him. I think he is like overhyped.
00:31:43 --> 00:31:47 So it does sort of give you that urge to kind of be like, well,
00:31:47 --> 00:31:51 okay, like he just showed up on the scene on the national scene, at least.
00:31:51 --> 00:31:56 Yes, he's gone viral for this like very one note TikTok format of like leaning
00:31:56 --> 00:32:00 into religion and sort of flipping the Republican talking points on its head.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:05 That doesn't, to me, merit a Senate seat, and it doesn't demonstrate that you
00:32:05 --> 00:32:10 have the experience or leadership to do anything of value.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 It doesn't mean you don't either. What I don't like about his campaign is I
00:32:14 --> 00:32:18 do think that they have been a little dirty, honestly, the way that they have
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20 been engaging with creators.
00:32:21 --> 00:32:28 There's been a lot of infighting, a lot of really nastiness and bullying online, and.
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 Especially over issues of race and gender and
00:32:32 --> 00:32:36 attacking jasmine crockett and while
00:32:36 --> 00:32:38 his team you know continues to say oh james is only
00:32:38 --> 00:32:41 going to run a positive campaign they have their super packs and
00:32:41 --> 00:32:45 their attack dogs people like excuse me keith edwards
00:32:45 --> 00:32:48 these other big youtubers that
00:32:48 --> 00:32:52 clearly have a relationship with the campaign that the campaign even privately
00:32:52 --> 00:32:56 texted folks saying they were going to reach out to to try to get them to stop
00:32:56 --> 00:33:00 being so aggressive and they never did that outreach so it's sort of like throwing
00:33:00 --> 00:33:04 the rock and hiding the hand and I don't you know as because I don't know that
00:33:04 --> 00:33:06 much about him and we don't know his record,
00:33:07 --> 00:33:12 to me that's a major red flag like just come out and be a big boy and have a
00:33:12 --> 00:33:19 real you know rough primary it is a rough primary be honest about it so I didn't
00:33:19 --> 00:33:23 like that so who do you think is going to pull it up do you think it's going
00:33:23 --> 00:33:26 to be Jasmine or do you think it's going to be Tallarico.
00:33:26 --> 00:33:30 It's so hard to know. I think like going off the traditional assessments,
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33 I'd say Crockett has a slight edge.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 She was up in the polls before voting started. She has the much higher name ID.
00:33:39 --> 00:33:43 Then, of course, though, you know, that Cole Bear thing was a boost to Tallarico,
00:33:44 --> 00:33:49 a national headline, which he raised tons of money on. And it's very hard to get a sense.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:54 You know, I think this is the other thing, too, with Democrats failing to build
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 a diverse and agile new media ecosystem. It really does lean.
00:33:59 --> 00:34:03 You know, young white YouTubers is who they put all their stock in.
00:34:04 --> 00:34:07 If Crockett pulls it off I think they'll need
00:34:07 --> 00:34:11 to reflect because the conversation online is so pro-Talerico
00:34:11 --> 00:34:14 that most of those people I think that are following those
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 guys and supporting them would be shocked if Crockett wins despite again her
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 being up in the polls her having the higher name ID her coming in right when
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 she jumped in they were saying she shouldn't jump in because she'll win and
00:34:26 --> 00:34:30 then she'll lose the general now they claim like she has no chance to win so
00:34:30 --> 00:34:31 who knows it can't really be both.
00:34:32 --> 00:34:35 No, I do think she has a slight edge. And either way, either way,
00:34:35 --> 00:34:39 I think what's going to be really important is this is a little bit of a test
00:34:39 --> 00:34:44 case of how quickly can the left come back together,
00:34:44 --> 00:34:48 regardless of who wins, to try to marshal and beat, you know,
00:34:48 --> 00:34:51 the Republican, because we're seeing this in other races, right?
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 Like that main race is also pretty divisive and controversial.
00:34:55 --> 00:34:59 And this won't be the only primary where people have a lot of feelings about it.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:03 So I do think we need to have more open and honest conversations about these things,
00:35:03 --> 00:35:06 not in a way that's like canceling everyone who disagrees or,
00:35:06 --> 00:35:11 you know, all the vitriol, but real acknowledgement that there are these disagreements
00:35:11 --> 00:35:15 with voters and certain groups do feel ignored and do feel like,
00:35:15 --> 00:35:18 you know, I mean, because what is it to say if at the end of the day,
00:35:18 --> 00:35:23 it is really true that only white men can win in a certain region?
00:35:23 --> 00:35:29 I'm not saying that I don't see the argument to run those people But you are
00:35:29 --> 00:35:35 basically then asking the minorities in that area to accept second-class citizen status, right?
00:35:35 --> 00:35:39 And I could totally understand why a lot of folks are super not down with that
00:35:39 --> 00:35:43 Why that's a non-starter and why to them it's like,
00:35:43 --> 00:35:46 all right Well, like you have to realize a lot of the people doing that I'm
00:35:46 --> 00:35:50 sure you do realize but your listeners the people doing this grassroots work
00:35:50 --> 00:35:52 every day when it's not a splashy,
00:35:52 --> 00:35:54 sexy election season or cycle,
00:35:54 --> 00:35:59 a lot of them are those women of color that have a strong opinion in this race
00:35:59 --> 00:36:02 that do the organizing work, that have the community connections,
00:36:02 --> 00:36:06 that do that type of powerful sort of, you know.
00:36:07 --> 00:36:11 Communication, educating their communities, all these things year round.
00:36:12 --> 00:36:16 And we need those voices to win a general election. And if you ignore them and
00:36:16 --> 00:36:20 if you say, well, you're not good enough to actually be elevated to a position
00:36:20 --> 00:36:24 of power because we don't think it's convenient right now, then you're going
00:36:24 --> 00:36:26 to lose that support. And I think that's critical.
00:36:26 --> 00:36:30 That's been the backbone of the Democratic Party across the country for a long time.
00:36:31 --> 00:36:34 So last question about Texas. Do you think
00:36:34 --> 00:36:37 that the winner of the primary today will have
00:36:37 --> 00:36:41 an advantage considering that congressman
00:36:41 --> 00:36:43 hunt is going to pull enough votes to force a
00:36:43 --> 00:36:47 runoff between paxton and cronin
00:36:47 --> 00:36:52 yeah i mean i think it'll be a slight advantage the reality is these two have
00:36:52 --> 00:36:57 like gone in the gutter beyond and anyone following it closely like knows that
00:36:57 --> 00:37:04 people in the midterms tend to i think actually really make their opinions before elections start.
00:37:04 --> 00:37:08 It's not really like a presidential election year where like every news cycle
00:37:08 --> 00:37:10 is kind of driving opinion.
00:37:11 --> 00:37:16 And actually, I know one person, a researcher suggests that even it's the end of the last year, right,
00:37:16 --> 00:37:20 during the holiday season, when prices are high, when you're traveling home,
00:37:20 --> 00:37:25 when you're talking to families, that people do kind of sort of figure out who
00:37:25 --> 00:37:28 they support and who they don't support in terms of the direction of the country.
00:37:28 --> 00:37:30 So I'm not sure it'll cause too much change.
00:37:30 --> 00:37:33 I'm sure it'll provide a lot of fodder for, you know, the pundit class.
00:37:33 --> 00:37:38 But beyond that, I don't know that it's going to be, again, the sort of gift
00:37:38 --> 00:37:39 that Democrats are hoping for.
00:37:40 --> 00:37:44 Yeah, I got you. I got you. I, you know, I...
00:37:45 --> 00:37:49 I don't know. You know, it's like it's my sports experience has always been
00:37:49 --> 00:37:54 like, I want to know who I'm going up against. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
00:37:55 --> 00:38:00 And, you know, and have more time to study the film and realize,
00:38:00 --> 00:38:03 you know, what their tendencies are and all that.
00:38:03 --> 00:38:06 And the runoff kind of delays that a little bit.
00:38:07 --> 00:38:11 But, you know, from a fundraising vantage point, you know, to get the money
00:38:11 --> 00:38:14 that you need unencumbered, you know, I don't know.
00:38:14 --> 00:38:18 No, I think that's a brilliant point you just made, right, that I don't see a lot of people making.
00:38:18 --> 00:38:22 It cuts both ways because then whoever wins the primary doesn't know who they're
00:38:22 --> 00:38:25 running against, doesn't really have an opponent to focus on,
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27 probably has two people attacking them.
00:38:27 --> 00:38:30 So absolutely, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
00:38:30 --> 00:38:34 All right. So midterm elections.
00:38:35 --> 00:38:41 Let me ask, I asked somebody else this question. So is this is this going to
00:38:41 --> 00:38:48 be a blue wave, a blue tsunami, or is it going to be like business as usual?
00:38:49 --> 00:38:53 What do we what does it look like? But I think we could see some major wins
00:38:53 --> 00:38:57 for Democrats. I do think we could see that in the short term,
00:38:57 --> 00:38:59 right? We could win midterms by a lot.
00:38:59 --> 00:39:06 But I think the reality is, that is just like, step one in stopping what's happening in this country.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:13 What really matters is 2028, I will say. And I think that is our chance to really
00:39:13 --> 00:39:16 turn back the clock a little bit the way we saw Joe Biden do.
00:39:16 --> 00:39:20 But if we pick the right person, hopefully a lot, because I think one thing,
00:39:21 --> 00:39:24 you know, and I actually think Joe Biden was a great president, but he didn't.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:29 He did try to sort of be that norm restoring president. We need to pick somebody
00:39:29 --> 00:39:34 who understands the norms are gone and that we need to do what it takes to course correct,
00:39:35 --> 00:39:40 to stomp out this corruption, to get justice and all of that stuff.
00:39:40 --> 00:39:42 And so I do think that's important.
00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 What I'm not seeing from Democrats yet, you know, if we have a blue wave,
00:39:46 --> 00:39:50 it will not be because Democrats, you know, came up with the most brilliant messaging.
00:39:50 --> 00:39:55 It'll be because Trump is very unpopular and people really don't like the direction
00:39:55 --> 00:39:58 of the country right now, and specifically on economic issues.
00:39:58 --> 00:40:01 And so that's not enough to carry us for the next, you know,
00:40:01 --> 00:40:03 the next presidential election cycle.
00:40:03 --> 00:40:07 So I think people really need to think about that, too. But I'm optimistic that
00:40:07 --> 00:40:13 we have big wins in this November. So is the end result.
00:40:13 --> 00:40:17 The the house and the senate both flip
00:40:17 --> 00:40:20 or is it just i mean i think the senate would be amazing
00:40:20 --> 00:40:23 i'm not sure i see that clearly yet
00:40:23 --> 00:40:27 we'll have to i think have a little bit more information on how things are shaping
00:40:27 --> 00:40:33 up you know for example maine right there's a lot of polling all over the place
00:40:33 --> 00:40:38 some shows that guy graham plattner way ahead of susan collins some show him
00:40:38 --> 00:40:41 losing to susan collins whereas you have the current governor running as a candidate
00:40:41 --> 00:40:43 you know she's already won this state,
00:40:43 --> 00:40:46 but, you know, the polling hasn't necessarily been in her favor, Janet Mills.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:51 So we need a little more information. And I do think that one of the things
00:40:51 --> 00:40:55 people don't understand is when you elevate a Graham Plattner,
00:40:55 --> 00:40:56 when you elevate a James Tallarico,
00:40:56 --> 00:41:02 when you pick somebody who just went viral and suddenly won over a major amount
00:41:02 --> 00:41:05 of support, you really don't know anything about them.
00:41:05 --> 00:41:07 So it can blow up in your face.
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 And by the way, right, I mean, a lot of these people haven't even faced the
00:41:13 --> 00:41:18 GOP opposition, you know, research and all of that stuff.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:22 So they haven't even really been properly campaigned against,
00:41:22 --> 00:41:24 as divisive as these Democratic primaries are.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:30 Imagine, right, when Republicans are running ads about all the Nazi stuff that
00:41:30 --> 00:41:33 this guy has engaged with or did know about or didn't know about, right?
00:41:33 --> 00:41:37 You could see immediately just a couple million dollars in ads.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:38 Maybe he drops 10 points. We don't know.
00:41:39 --> 00:41:42 So I think we have to kind of go in with that mindset
00:41:42 --> 00:41:45 and certainly nobody should take anything for granted yeah i
00:41:45 --> 00:41:48 i noticed you you and and and
00:41:48 --> 00:41:52 this this platinum fellow i don't think you've engaged him directly but you've
00:41:52 --> 00:41:57 you've had some major concerns about that and then you know because there's
00:41:57 --> 00:42:04 some races where i've seen some people on ms now ms now and and and other channels
00:42:04 --> 00:42:07 that are running but then it's like okay i see them on TV,
00:42:07 --> 00:42:12 but they're not polling, you know, they're like in third or fourth place in polling.
00:42:13 --> 00:42:16 And so, you know, I'm just trying to figure out how...
00:42:17 --> 00:42:21 All that is going to vet out. But I think you bring up a good point about the
00:42:21 --> 00:42:25 opposition research, because one of the things I learned early in politics,
00:42:25 --> 00:42:31 that the first thing you need to do in opposition research is hire somebody to study you.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:35 Yeah, exactly. And then you have a file on you. So that way,
00:42:35 --> 00:42:39 you know, what's going to be coming at you, you know, in the election,
00:42:39 --> 00:42:40 especially in the general.
00:42:40 --> 00:42:46 So, you know, this guy is unconventional and he seemed to be like the darling
00:42:46 --> 00:42:49 of the media when he first got out.
00:42:50 --> 00:42:55 But now it's like all this stuff is coming out and and then you're running.
00:42:55 --> 00:43:00 At that time, the governor wasn't running and she had her one viral moment when
00:43:00 --> 00:43:02 she told the president, I'll see you in court.
00:43:02 --> 00:43:05 And then the next couple of weeks, she was running for the U.S.
00:43:05 --> 00:43:09 Senate. So I think we're in this reality, though, kind of where.
00:43:12 --> 00:43:18 Being viral gives you the political availability to run for stuff.
00:43:18 --> 00:43:23 Do you, and you're of the generation is more influenced by that.
00:43:23 --> 00:43:27 I do. I agree with you. I actually, I've written about this for the bulwark
00:43:27 --> 00:43:32 a couple months ago when we had a few different influencers running for office,
00:43:32 --> 00:43:35 Isaiah Martin in Texas, you know.
00:43:36 --> 00:43:39 Millions of impressions raised, I think, you know,
00:43:39 --> 00:43:42 record amounts in that race got like three or four percent
00:43:42 --> 00:43:45 of the vote but when you have that national attention and
00:43:45 --> 00:43:48 media support it seems like you're winning and then
00:43:48 --> 00:43:51 same right deja fox ran in arizona she
00:43:51 --> 00:43:58 lost by 40 points and yet she was getting those like ny mag cover spreads and
00:43:58 --> 00:44:02 all that glossy magazine coverage making again millions of impressions on tiktok
00:44:02 --> 00:44:06 that would make you think she was a real contender and even here in new york
00:44:06 --> 00:44:09 right we have jack Schlossberg, the grandson of JFK,
00:44:09 --> 00:44:13 who is frankly running, I think, an embarrassingly bad campaign and getting
00:44:13 --> 00:44:15 a bit roasted for it. But you have people, right?
00:44:16 --> 00:44:19 Like he's an influencer. You have people like Pelosi endorsing him.
00:44:19 --> 00:44:22 You just had his parents come out and endorse him. I think it's like ridiculous.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:25 Like people are making fun of his campaign. He doesn't have a campaign manager.
00:44:25 --> 00:44:29 They were asking, is he applying to go to NYU or to be in Congress?
00:44:29 --> 00:44:34 Because you go to the website, it's like, I promise to be creative and optimistic.
00:44:34 --> 00:44:38 And it's like, okay, nobody cares. Like, It's very strange.
00:44:38 --> 00:44:43 And I think, again, what it reveals is a desperation that Democrats have.
00:44:43 --> 00:44:44 They feel they lost online.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:49 They feel that the right-wing media ecosystem and the figures in the right-wing
00:44:49 --> 00:44:52 are more compelling, more interesting, you know, whatever it is.
00:44:52 --> 00:44:57 And so they want to hand over the keys to these random 20-year-olds that go
00:44:57 --> 00:45:00 viral and say, okay, well, hopefully this can get us the attention.
00:45:00 --> 00:45:01 Hopefully they can get our message out there.
00:45:02 --> 00:45:07 So wrong-headed because the reality is, yes, do we need everyone to be an 80-year-old,
00:45:07 --> 00:45:10 you know, tweeting out lame Taylor Swift lyrics? No.
00:45:11 --> 00:45:14 But there are people, right? It's funny. I was talking to my friend Shannon
00:45:14 --> 00:45:18 Watts, who started a major movement, gun violence movement called Moms Demand
00:45:18 --> 00:45:19 Action, you may have heard of.
00:45:20 --> 00:45:23 And she's, I think, in her early 50s, right?
00:45:23 --> 00:45:26 I was like, you, I would love to see somebody like Shannon Watts,
00:45:26 --> 00:45:30 right, run for office, who has built a national movement, who's written books,
00:45:30 --> 00:45:34 who's been a leader, who understands, right? She has hundreds of thousands of
00:45:34 --> 00:45:35 social media followers.
00:45:35 --> 00:45:40 She's not a quote unquote influencer. She's done something that has earned her
00:45:40 --> 00:45:42 influence. And I think that is the key.
00:45:42 --> 00:45:46 Doing something that earns you influence is very different than being an influencer
00:45:46 --> 00:45:51 and thinking that earns you the right to a political position or something.
00:45:51 --> 00:45:53 And I think that's where people are really missing the mark.
00:45:53 --> 00:46:01 Yeah well you know she lucy mcbath was her main lieutenant and absolutely and the same.
00:46:03 --> 00:46:05 Jasmine crockett and james tallarico those are
00:46:05 --> 00:46:10 two examples right they are they have been elected before they have some experience
00:46:10 --> 00:46:14 and they are absolutely digital first candidates they understand how to go viral
00:46:14 --> 00:46:18 they each have millions of followers right so like why do we need to go find
00:46:18 --> 00:46:23 you know a 20 year old with no experience when we have a 40 year old former
00:46:23 --> 00:46:24 criminal defensive attorney,
00:46:24 --> 00:46:26 former congresswoman, right?
00:46:26 --> 00:46:29 Who's who has that background, we just don't need to do it anymore.
00:46:29 --> 00:46:35 So I think there's been this like, almost just misalignment of timing where,
00:46:35 --> 00:46:40 yes, a couple years ago, we were really missing that mark and relying too heavily
00:46:40 --> 00:46:42 on creators and influencers.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:49 But actually, in the ideal scenario, we don't need that middleman to translate
00:46:49 --> 00:46:54 things digitally, we just have people that are good communicators online and also have real resumes.
00:46:55 --> 00:47:00 And I was going to say Maxwell Frost, he was lieutenant basically for David Hogg.
00:47:00 --> 00:47:04 And, you know, he got elected to Congress and he didn't really go viral or anything.
00:47:04 --> 00:47:08 He just ran a good campaign and won that district, you know.
00:47:08 --> 00:47:13 So, yeah, I feel you. So let's get into the messaging thing as we get ready to close this out.
00:47:14 --> 00:47:21 Because we, excuse me, we've dabbled into the conversation a little bit as we were going into it.
00:47:21 --> 00:47:29 But what what do you think the Democrats need to do messaging wise to ensure
00:47:29 --> 00:47:32 that they get those majorities?
00:47:33 --> 00:47:36 Well, I do think it was great that they picked Abigail Spanberger to do the
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 response to the State of the Union. I think she's a strong communicator.
00:47:40 --> 00:47:45 I think she's not somebody that comes across extreme and she doesn't need to
00:47:45 --> 00:47:49 kind of rely on stunts to capture your attention and make sense.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:53 And she's very good on her feet on the campaign trail. There were so many moments
00:47:53 --> 00:47:57 where she was either being heckled or, you know, she was engaging with a MAGA
00:47:57 --> 00:47:59 supporter and she just handles it so well.
00:48:00 --> 00:48:04 But I so I think, you know, continuing to hyper focus on affordability like she was.
00:48:05 --> 00:48:10 And then, you know, for midterms, I do think the focus on Trump and everything going wrong is fine.
00:48:10 --> 00:48:15 I think, again, for that bigger picture, we need a positive agenda, a positive vision.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:17 And, you know, I'll give you AI as an example.
00:48:18 --> 00:48:21 All finally, Democrats are rolling out some AI ideas.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:26 And all of them almost are about how we slow down, regulate,
00:48:26 --> 00:48:29 and make sure things are being done right.
00:48:29 --> 00:48:32 I believe in that. I absolutely believe we cannot trust these companies.
00:48:32 --> 00:48:34 We do need to regulate them. We can't trust them.
00:48:35 --> 00:48:39 But that does not inspire anyone. That does not excite anyone.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:43 That doesn't get young men, for example, that want to be part of the future,
00:48:43 --> 00:48:46 want to have their shot, want to make a ton of money, whatever it is.
00:48:46 --> 00:48:51 That doesn't interest them. You need to also explain to people how they're going
00:48:51 --> 00:48:56 to benefit and be part of the AI revolution, right? I mean, it's coming.
00:48:56 --> 00:48:57 We're not going to stop it at this point.
00:48:57 --> 00:49:02 So how can we make sure that all Americans benefit from that system,
00:49:02 --> 00:49:04 right? We've already been through this several times.
00:49:04 --> 00:49:10 There's been so many sort of, you know, explosions in the last two centuries
00:49:10 --> 00:49:12 of innovation, right? Just most recently, right?
00:49:13 --> 00:49:18 The internet, period, right? So we know how sort of inequity can come out of that.
00:49:18 --> 00:49:22 And we also know what we could have done to stop it and to make sure that workers
00:49:22 --> 00:49:26 and folks were more built in to be part of this system and benefit from it.
00:49:26 --> 00:49:28 So what are those policies?
00:49:28 --> 00:49:31 And like some, you know, have thrown out things like an AI dividend,
00:49:31 --> 00:49:35 like maybe it's just like, we take some of the glut from these huge companies
00:49:35 --> 00:49:39 that are really, you know, hurting our climate and doing all these things. And.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:44 A starting point, make sure they pay their fair share. But beyond pay their
00:49:44 --> 00:49:48 fair share, maybe, yeah, maybe there is a certain percentage going to the local
00:49:48 --> 00:49:54 community to invest or whatever it is, figure it out. But what are those exciting ideas?
00:49:54 --> 00:49:58 I haven't seen them. So I think we need to come up with actual policies like that.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:04 And they don't need to be so specific and that they bore people,
00:50:05 --> 00:50:06 frankly, and they get picked apart by the wonks.
00:50:06 --> 00:50:09 It just needs to be a vision, a direction.
00:50:09 --> 00:50:14 And I think that is still missing. I think part of that is because a lot of
00:50:14 --> 00:50:17 the people that are immersed in that space don't have the charisma that they
00:50:17 --> 00:50:19 need to compete politically.
00:50:19 --> 00:50:23 Like, there's a candidate in New York called Alex Boras. He's been talking about
00:50:23 --> 00:50:24 AI, but he's very monotone.
00:50:25 --> 00:50:27 Like, he was an engineer at Palantir and that's how he comes across.
00:50:28 --> 00:50:33 Like, he's not going to inspire people, I think, to take on, you know, AI in that way.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:37 Same with, you know, Ro Khanna. I'm a big fan of Ro Khanna, but on this issue,
00:50:37 --> 00:50:40 again, is he going to be the one to like
00:50:40 --> 00:50:44 excite so many people and sell it maybe you
00:50:44 --> 00:50:46 know but i think we you need somebody that kind of has both right
00:50:46 --> 00:50:53 the policy chops and the ability to be an entertainer yeah see i'm i'm i'm big
00:50:53 --> 00:50:58 into storytelling right and i think that you know when you when you when you
00:50:58 --> 00:51:03 can get somebody they don't have to have like this over-the-top charisma but
00:51:03 --> 00:51:05 if you can relate If you can tell a story,
00:51:05 --> 00:51:13 if you can say something that will bring people in to pay attention to you and
00:51:13 --> 00:51:19 to feel what you're trying to convey, I think that that that wins.
00:51:19 --> 00:51:21 And I've and I've made this case over and over again.
00:51:22 --> 00:51:29 People don't tell stories. They just spout facts and say against or say what they for.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:35 And like you said, they get into the wonky stuff. but just tell a story that people can relate to.
00:51:35 --> 00:51:38 Donald Trump is not a great storyteller, but.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:44 He knows how to market. And so he's been able to tap into stuff.
00:51:44 --> 00:51:48 But to counter somebody like him, like a P.T. Barnum kind of candidate that
00:51:48 --> 00:51:51 he is, you have to have somebody that's folksy.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:56 I just I won't get into it, but I just remember there was a lieutenant governor
00:51:56 --> 00:52:01 race in Mississippi. He had this guy who was an Air Force jet pilot and he was
00:52:01 --> 00:52:03 a Harvard educated lawyer.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:08 I worked with him in the legislature. Smart guy. You know, this is a Republican
00:52:08 --> 00:52:10 primary. But a smart guy, all this stuff.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:16 And then he ran against this guy who was like, you know, this folksy whatever.
00:52:16 --> 00:52:22 You know what I'm saying? He was just like, now y'all know that this is not
00:52:22 --> 00:52:23 the way government should work.
00:52:23 --> 00:52:28 And he beat the brakes off of this intelligent man. You know what I'm saying?
00:52:28 --> 00:52:33 Yeah. And it was just like, because he was able to tell a story, you know?
00:52:33 --> 00:52:41 And I mean, my friend, he literally had a chalkboard and he was trying to spell
00:52:41 --> 00:52:44 out stuff on the chalkboard and people like, what?
00:52:44 --> 00:52:48 You know what I'm saying? So it's like, that to me is the key.
00:52:48 --> 00:52:52 It's like all those points you mentioned, but you got to be able to tell the
00:52:52 --> 00:52:55 story. That's just me. All right. Last question.
00:52:56 --> 00:52:59 Finish this sentence. I have hope because...
00:53:01 --> 00:53:08 I have hope because I do think that we are now seeing that generation of the
00:53:08 --> 00:53:13 deep bench that for decades Democrats have been talking about come to fruition.
00:53:13 --> 00:53:17 And, you know, as much as that Texas primary has been divisive,
00:53:17 --> 00:53:20 I think it highlights the range of candidates that we do have, right?
00:53:21 --> 00:53:26 These quality, digital, good communicator candidates. And we're seeing that
00:53:26 --> 00:53:29 with interesting folks across the country. And I do think that,
00:53:29 --> 00:53:35 you know, headed into 2028, we actually have some really interesting, strong people.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:39 And I'll caveat it, I'm hopeful that we can have, you know.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:45 An actually interesting primary for 2028 with an exchange of ideas that touches
00:53:45 --> 00:53:50 on some of the things that we talked about, and not sort of have the,
00:53:50 --> 00:53:55 what we had in 2020, which was really just like, you know, all these kind of
00:53:55 --> 00:54:00 random people running for attention, not punching through 20 plus folks,
00:54:00 --> 00:54:03 I don't think we'll necessarily see that repeat.
00:54:03 --> 00:54:07 And so I'm excited to see people come with their energy and incitement.
00:54:07 --> 00:54:12 Well, Kaivan Shroff. I have hope because of people like you.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:19 I think it's good that, you know, to see younger people be engaged and be articulate
00:54:19 --> 00:54:25 and willing to go out there and not only be a cheerleader,
00:54:25 --> 00:54:29 but to be critical and to make us think about what we need to be doing,
00:54:30 --> 00:54:32 what we should be doing. It's very grateful to you.
00:54:32 --> 00:54:36 If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?
00:54:36 --> 00:54:41 Yes, so I'm Kaivon Shroff on all social media platforms, just spelt like my
00:54:41 --> 00:54:43 name, and would love to see you there.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:47 All right, sir. Well, again, thank you for coming on.
00:54:47 --> 00:54:52 I greatly appreciate your opinions on things, and I look forward to seeing your
00:54:52 --> 00:54:57 battles on X and all these other platforms.
00:54:58 --> 00:55:02 Thank you so much, man. Have a good one. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:55:21 --> 00:55:26 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest.
00:55:27 --> 00:55:32 And that is Louise Story and Ebony Reed.
00:55:33 --> 00:55:36 I'm going to take a little time before I go into their bios to pat myself on
00:55:36 --> 00:55:42 the back because this was an interview I've been pursuing for almost two years.
00:55:42 --> 00:55:48 I had the privilege of meeting these women at a seminar they held in Atlanta.
00:55:49 --> 00:55:54 And a lot of the book that we're going to talk about in the interview was based
00:55:54 --> 00:56:00 on interviews they did in Atlanta. So it was really, really cool to watch their
00:56:00 --> 00:56:04 presentation and to get a copy of the book and be able to read it.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:08 And I am really, really happy that they came on the podcast.
00:56:08 --> 00:56:14 Now, Louise Story is a prize-winning investigative journalist who spent more
00:56:14 --> 00:56:18 than 15 years at the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal,
00:56:18 --> 00:56:22 where she was the top masthead editor running coverage strategy.
00:56:22 --> 00:56:28 Her work investigating corruption led to the largest kleptocracy forfeiture in U.S.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:33 History, a scandal known as the 1MDB case.
00:56:33 --> 00:56:39 Her work during the 2008 financial crisis led to a multi-billion dollar settlement
00:56:39 --> 00:56:45 in the derivative market and to Goldman Sachs SEC settlement.
00:56:46 --> 00:56:50 Projects she led have received honors, including Emmy Awards,
00:56:51 --> 00:56:56 Pulitzer Prize finalist citations, and Online News Association Awards.
00:56:57 --> 00:57:02 Louisa's film, The Kleptocrats, aired on the BBC, Apple, and Amazon.
00:57:02 --> 00:57:07 She teaches about racial wealth gaps at the Yale School of Management.
00:57:08 --> 00:57:14 Ebony Reed is a seasoned journalism leader who has led coverage and operations
00:57:14 --> 00:57:16 with a focus on Community News.
00:57:16 --> 00:57:21 She began her career as a reporter at The Plain Dealer, covering Cleveland Public
00:57:21 --> 00:57:27 Schools, documenting public education's inequities, and with her work being
00:57:27 --> 00:57:31 recognized by the investigative reporters and editors organization.
00:57:31 --> 00:57:37 At The Detroit News, she managed the local coverage during the 2008 economic crisis.
00:57:37 --> 00:57:43 Now the Chief Strategy Officer at the Marshall Project, she has held other senior
00:57:43 --> 00:57:48 roles at the Associated Press, Boston Business Journal, and the Wall Street Journal.
00:57:48 --> 00:57:54 She's taught at a half-dozen institutions, including co-teaching with Louise
00:57:54 --> 00:57:56 at the Yale School of Management.
00:57:56 --> 00:58:01 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests
00:58:01 --> 00:58:06 on this podcast, Louise Story and Ebony Reed.
00:58:17 --> 00:58:23 All right. Louise Story and Ebony Reed. How y'all ladies doing? Y'all doing good?
00:58:24 --> 00:58:28 We're doing great. Yep. Doing well. Well, I am so glad. I have been trying to
00:58:28 --> 00:58:35 get you on my show for the longest, and I'm finally glad we had a window where we could all do it.
00:58:35 --> 00:58:38 I'm trying to follow what y'all told me in the book.
00:58:39 --> 00:58:44 I think when y'all autographed my copy, it says, For Eric, spread this data.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:54 So hopefully being on a podcast will be my contribution to spreading that.
00:58:54 --> 00:58:57 But seriously, thank you all for taking the time to do this.
00:58:57 --> 00:59:00 I know you all have been in demand and very busy, so I appreciate that.
00:59:01 --> 00:59:06 Thank you. All right, guys. Thank you. So normally how I do this is that I start
00:59:06 --> 00:59:10 off with a couple of icebreakers before we get into the meat of the interview.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 So my first icebreaker is I want you to respond to a quote.
00:59:16 --> 00:59:21 Politics is really about who divides the money And whether or not you get your
00:59:21 --> 00:59:25 share What does that quote mean to you? That's a famous quote.
00:59:26 --> 00:59:29 Is that Andrew Young? That is Andrew Young. That is correct.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:31 Yeah. There you go. I got the trivia.
00:59:32 --> 00:59:38 That's great, Louise. Andrew Young, as you know, he and his family are a main
00:59:38 --> 00:59:39 through line in our book.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:43 We shadow seven families in the book. It really helps you follow a narrative
00:59:43 --> 00:59:47 while you're reading this kind of whole re-look at American history through
00:59:47 --> 00:59:49 the lens of the black-white wealth gap.
00:59:50 --> 00:59:57 And it is true that at the end of the day, laws, rules, customs,
00:59:57 --> 01:00:04 practices determine whether people get a cut of the pie and what size that they get.
01:00:04 --> 01:00:08 And historically in this country, and still to this day, a lot of those practices
01:00:08 --> 01:00:13 and laws and rulings have been set, you know, more predominantly by white people.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:19 And, you know, with, you know, a narrow and maybe even sometimes bigoted perspective
01:00:19 --> 01:00:22 on it, and it hasn't divided things up fairly.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 So I think it's a very wise quote. I'll turn to Ebony for her take on it.
01:00:26 --> 01:00:29 Yeah, I mean, to me, it speaks really directly right to the black,
01:00:29 --> 01:00:38 white, well, okay, you know, getting your figure to share and what that means
01:00:38 --> 01:00:40 and what it means to face that.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:44 Think about generational, what pass along, you know, anything to other people
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 and their family. That's what it means to me.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:53 Yeah. All right. So now my next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
01:00:54 --> 01:01:00 So I need y'all to collaborate and give me a number between 1 and 20. 13.
01:01:01 --> 01:01:04 We can average it, Ebony. What do you want to go for? Okay. I was going to go
01:01:04 --> 01:01:07 for 10, but that's good. 13 is good. No, no, no. So we'll go for 11.
01:01:07 --> 01:01:10 That's kind of, it would be 11 and a half, but we'll round out to 11. 11.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:19 All right. Number 11, it is, where do you go to check a fact that you see, hear, or read?
01:01:20 --> 01:01:24 The original source of that fact, if possible. So, you know,
01:01:24 --> 01:01:28 if it's a data point, go to the full data set.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:33 A lot of data points are actually calculations. So go to the numbers that,
01:01:33 --> 01:01:33 you know, they originate.
01:01:34 --> 01:01:39 The title of our book, 15 cents on the dollar, which is what the typical black
01:01:39 --> 01:01:43 family has in wealth compared to $1 in wealth held by the typical white family,
01:01:43 --> 01:01:45 you know, it's a calculation, right?
01:01:45 --> 01:01:48 It's dividing those relative wealth numbers together.
01:01:48 --> 01:01:50 So to check that fact, I'd go back to the source of the data,
01:01:50 --> 01:01:53 which is the government, and look at the numerator and the denominator,
01:01:53 --> 01:01:55 look at them over time, and check it out.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 I also think about other primary documents and historical documents and going back to those.
01:02:02 --> 01:02:05 And in the reporting of this book, Louise, you know, and I both,
01:02:05 --> 01:02:09 we looked at primary documents. We looked at historical documents.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:14 We looked at family trees and ancestry. We went back to original speeches that
01:02:14 --> 01:02:16 Dr. King and other leaders had given.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:20 And so I think about that when I'm tracing back to double check a fact.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:28 Okay. All right, guys. So what compelled y'all to write this book and why did
01:02:28 --> 01:02:30 you focus on Atlanta for your research?
01:02:31 --> 01:02:34 Well, I can start with the first part. I'll talk about what compelled us to,
01:02:34 --> 01:02:37 you know, write this book and report it together.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:42 Louise and I, we are both longtime journalists. Louise, early in her career,
01:02:42 --> 01:02:45 spent a significant amount of time, you know, at the New York Times.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:49 She covered the 2009 financial crisis on Wall Street.
01:02:49 --> 01:02:52 At that time, I was an editor at the.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:58 Time, it felt like it didn't matter what the story was. There was an intersection
01:02:58 --> 01:03:04 with wealth and the foreclosure crisis that was impacting so many families at that time.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:10 And I had always wondered, you know, what happened to the wealth of Black families at that time?
01:03:10 --> 01:03:15 And so then we fast forward, you know, 10, 11 years later, it's the summer of 2020.
01:03:16 --> 01:03:19 Louise and I are working together at the Wall Street Journal.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:21 She had recruited me to join her team.
01:03:21 --> 01:03:26 And, you know, back to that first pandemic summer of 2020, we couldn't go anywhere.
01:03:26 --> 01:03:32 So we were in our homes, and we were having conversations at night and on the weekend on Zoom.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:36 And we started talking about books we'd read, others that we wanted to read.
01:03:37 --> 01:03:41 And we realized that there was no book that had the complete history of the
01:03:41 --> 01:03:46 black-white wealth gap from the beginning of time to the current day.
01:03:46 --> 01:03:50 And, you know, there are many excellent books out there that speak to that 2009
01:03:50 --> 01:03:53 financial crisis and redlining or the history of slavery.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:58 But we felt that with our backgrounds, we were the perfect journalists to come
01:03:58 --> 01:04:03 together and tackle this topic and not just with the data, but also with the
01:04:03 --> 01:04:06 rich reporting of looking at the lives of people.
01:04:06 --> 01:04:11 And with that, I'll take a breath and I'll pass to Louise about like why we focused on Atlanta.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:17 So Atlanta has been called the Black Mecca, right? It's been called the place
01:04:17 --> 01:04:19 that Black Americans, you know, could break through.
01:04:19 --> 01:04:23 There've been Black mayors and many leaders in society there.
01:04:23 --> 01:04:29 But in fact, when you look at the data, the economic well-being and kind of
01:04:29 --> 01:04:34 equality coming to Black families there hasn't really happened fully.
01:04:34 --> 01:04:37 And so we thought it was an interesting place. It's got the history,
01:04:37 --> 01:04:43 it's got interesting people, but it also speaks to the failed promise to bring
01:04:43 --> 01:04:47 more equality financially in our country over the past many decades.
01:04:49 --> 01:04:54 Yeah, that was a very stark reality I came into when I moved here to Atlanta that,
01:04:55 --> 01:04:59 You know, Atlanta is one of the 10 richest cities in the United States,
01:04:59 --> 01:05:03 but it has the biggest wealth gap of any city in the United States.
01:05:03 --> 01:05:09 And that blew my mind, especially like you said, Louise, it's considered the black mecca.
01:05:09 --> 01:05:14 It's like, surely the black mecca doesn't have this wealth gap, but in reality it does.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:20 And y'all explain that a lot in the book. Heather McGee said,
01:05:21 --> 01:05:23 wealth is where history shows up in your wallet.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:26 Y'all give y'all definition of what wealth is.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:32 Well, you know, Louise and I have traveled around and spoken in many different
01:05:32 --> 01:05:36 communities, virtually and in person, helping people understand the difference
01:05:36 --> 01:05:41 between wealth and income and about the black-white wealth gap.
01:05:41 --> 01:05:46 And so wealth is everything that you own minus what you owe.
01:05:47 --> 01:05:53 And it is also defined as, you know, your net worth by the Federal Reserve Bank
01:05:53 --> 01:05:57 and other financial institutions, but it's everything that you own minus what you owe.
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 We've asked our students, we taught at the Yale School of Management for several
01:06:02 --> 01:06:04 years about racial wealth gaps.
01:06:04 --> 01:06:08 And we asked the students, MBA students, what is wealth at the beginning of every class?
01:06:09 --> 01:06:11 And it's interesting, you know, people have all different ideas of it.
01:06:11 --> 01:06:15 There's the technical definition that Ebony gave, you know, it's your assets, my liabilities.
01:06:16 --> 01:06:20 But people also think about wealth in, you know, a philosophical way.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:22 They think about wealth as opportunities.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:27 You know, it's the having the resources, the safety net around you to go out
01:06:27 --> 01:06:29 and become an entrepreneur. like having the startup capital,
01:06:29 --> 01:06:32 the wealth you have, not just in money, but for example, in your network,
01:06:33 --> 01:06:35 knowing people who make resources, you and so on.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:43 So in an even bigger picture way, wealth is truly where, you know,
01:06:43 --> 01:06:47 equality and opportunity plays out for so many people.
01:06:47 --> 01:06:50 And that's why Ebony and I, you know, we're just so tied to this.
01:06:51 --> 01:06:54 You know, a lot of Sometimes you talk about civil rights in the very important
01:06:54 --> 01:07:01 areas of justice and in laws and in legal things. And those matter and those contribute.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:06 But money and what the opportunities you have tied to money also affects a lot
01:07:06 --> 01:07:09 about the lives and the equality that we can have.
01:07:09 --> 01:07:14 Yeah. And that was that was the one cool thing about. Well, one of several cool
01:07:14 --> 01:07:18 things about your book is that not only did y'all give a definition,
01:07:18 --> 01:07:20 but you also dealt with people's perceptions.
01:07:20 --> 01:07:25 Because a lot of times, it seems like for the last couple of episodes,
01:07:25 --> 01:07:29 I've had somebody on talking about wealth, Black wealth specifically,
01:07:29 --> 01:07:32 and we didn't get into the definition.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:36 It's almost like it's supposed to be kind of understood. But I was really glad
01:07:36 --> 01:07:41 that y'all highlighted the fact that people perceive wealth different ways.
01:07:42 --> 01:07:45 Why is the black dollar a mere marketing term?
01:07:46 --> 01:07:52 Yeah. Well, we have an entire, you know, chapter on, you know, the black dollar.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:56 And it has certainly been something that marketers have targeted,
01:07:57 --> 01:08:02 right, in trying to get black Americans to buy, you know, goods and services.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:08 But I think, you know, really core to that question is, does money stay in the black community?
01:08:09 --> 01:08:15 And if it does for how long and where does that stat come from or information about that stat.
01:08:15 --> 01:08:19 And so we really tried to track that down, you know, in our reporting,
01:08:19 --> 01:08:23 going to primary sources, you know, about, you know, this issue.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:27 And, you know, the bottom line, you know, Eric, is that we have a global economy
01:08:27 --> 01:08:34 now and it's very hard for a dollar to stay in, you know, one community and
01:08:34 --> 01:08:36 not, you know, leave that community.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:43 And so it is a marketing term and sort of, you know, a myth in today's society
01:08:43 --> 01:08:47 that a dollar can just simply stay in a community.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:55 I'll just add to that, Eric, the black dollar, you mean like the black 15 cents, right?
01:08:55 --> 01:09:01 So the whole premise of calling it the black dollar, right, where the dollar
01:09:01 --> 01:09:07 is the 100% is like obliviating the problem here, right?
01:09:07 --> 01:09:12 And all of the language you'll see about going after the buying power of black
01:09:12 --> 01:09:14 Americans, what power are you talking about?
01:09:14 --> 01:09:22 15 cents. And so I actually think that businesses that have framed it this way,
01:09:22 --> 01:09:26 you know, we have a very business-oriented society.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:30 People use financial terms. We have someone who was kind of a businessman,
01:09:30 --> 01:09:33 I guess you could call Donald Trump, as our president, right?
01:09:33 --> 01:09:38 And when you talk in business terms, and it's all about how much money can this business make,
01:09:38 --> 01:09:43 They're basically talking about unequal groups of people where people do not
01:09:43 --> 01:09:47 have the same level of spending power as if they have this power by saying the
01:09:47 --> 01:09:49 black dollar is the black 15 cents on the white dollar.
01:09:49 --> 01:09:56 So the whole term is just misconstrued in terms of what's really going on in our society.
01:09:56 --> 01:10:01 Yeah. And, you know, that's something that a lot of us, especially,
01:10:02 --> 01:10:08 you know, people like me that have been in elected office when we were trying to,
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 I guess, you know, get people to galvanize and all that.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:18 We would say, well, you know, our gross domestic product is, you know, rivals.
01:10:18 --> 01:10:23 It would be like one of the top 10 nations in the world and and all that kind
01:10:23 --> 01:10:33 of stuff. But again, that's money, as Ebony said, that we get and then give it right back.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:38 And it's not accumulating in our communities and so forth.
01:10:38 --> 01:10:42 So I'm glad, Louise, you made it plain. It's not a dollar even, it's 15 cents.
01:10:46 --> 01:10:52 All right. If bankruptcy is an example of mercy in the American capitalist system,
01:10:52 --> 01:10:55 why does it equal turmoil for Black Americans?
01:10:56 --> 01:11:01 Well, because, you know, Black Americans don't even get the same mercy as white Americans.
01:11:02 --> 01:11:05 So bankruptcy, let's be clear, is turmoil for all people.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:09 For a Hispanic family in bankruptcy, it's turmoil. For a white family,
01:11:09 --> 01:11:10 it's turmoil. Bankruptcy is turmoil.
01:11:11 --> 01:11:16 The problem with our system today is that statistically speaking,
01:11:17 --> 01:11:22 white Americans are more likely to get the mercy during this turmoil than black Americans.
01:11:22 --> 01:11:25 And so we wrote at length and explained in the book how the system is set up
01:11:25 --> 01:11:30 through the different types of bankruptcy people file and in other ways so that they don't.
01:11:30 --> 01:11:33 And one of them has to do with, for example, which type of bankruptcy you file.
01:11:33 --> 01:11:38 And some filings require more cash up front to pay lawyers, for example.
01:11:39 --> 01:11:43 And so there again, you might think two people filing for bankruptcy are equal.
01:11:44 --> 01:11:44 They're both going bankrupt.
01:11:45 --> 01:11:49 But different people have different strings they can pull on their family for
01:11:49 --> 01:11:52 support and front the cash and make different decisions.
01:11:52 --> 01:11:56 And so the problem with bankruptcy is a problem for anyone experiencing it,
01:11:56 --> 01:11:58 but the mercy is not given out equally.
01:11:59 --> 01:12:03 Ebony, did you want to add something to that or is that good? No, I'm good.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:07 I think that's a very thorough explanation that Louise has given.
01:12:07 --> 01:12:13 Well, I can tell you from my experience that bankruptcy is turmoil and I didn't
01:12:13 --> 01:12:14 even file a bankruptcy, right?
01:12:15 --> 01:12:23 When I got my first divorce, that's a whole other podcast for another day, my ex filed bankruptcy.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:32 And so it was like, she had a car, for example, and then I had a car,
01:12:32 --> 01:12:37 but she co-signed the car because I got my car earlier in the marriage.
01:12:37 --> 01:12:42 And so she co-signed on it. So when she filed bankruptcy, I didn't have a car
01:12:42 --> 01:12:45 anymore because you could only have one car, right?
01:12:46 --> 01:12:53 So So I can definitely speak to the turmoil because it was a whole lot of other
01:12:53 --> 01:12:56 stuff I had to manage to deal with that.
01:12:56 --> 01:12:59 And I said, whatever I do, no matter how much I'm struggling,
01:13:00 --> 01:13:03 I am not going to file bankruptcy. I'm not going to go through that.
01:13:03 --> 01:13:05 And I sure wouldn't want to put that on anybody else.
01:13:06 --> 01:13:11 But I'm glad succinctly that you were able to explain what that means, Louise.
01:13:11 --> 01:13:15 And then, like you said, you've got a whole chapter in the book that really goes into that.
01:13:16 --> 01:13:20 But Eric, I will say, it surprised me a little bit as we were researching the
01:13:20 --> 01:13:21 book and learning about it.
01:13:21 --> 01:13:25 And this captures the approach Ebony and I took to the book,
01:13:25 --> 01:13:26 too, which I think readers will.
01:13:28 --> 01:13:32 It was very organic to the stories we heard from the regular people and the
01:13:32 --> 01:13:33 different families we interviewed.
01:13:33 --> 01:13:36 We didn't set out and outline the book and say, oh, we're going to write on bankruptcy.
01:13:37 --> 01:13:41 But it came up in so many interviews and the actual narratives that we realized
01:13:41 --> 01:13:43 we had to understand it and what was happening.
01:13:44 --> 01:13:46 So then we looked at the data. We looked at the academic research.
01:13:46 --> 01:13:47 We looked at the laws around it.
01:13:47 --> 01:13:54 And we were able to put some answers on the question of why for these families,
01:13:54 --> 01:13:58 these black families we were speaking with, why was it happening differently
01:13:58 --> 01:14:01 from white families in terms of the mercy I got, they got.
01:14:01 --> 01:14:07 But what really surprised me is I had, you know, maybe for the most part heard
01:14:07 --> 01:14:13 from people that part of the way you have unequal systems is whether people,
01:14:13 --> 01:14:17 you know, you talk about things like transfers, giving money to people,
01:14:18 --> 01:14:19 lifting people up through those things.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:25 But I had never thought before about ways if people get relief from something
01:14:25 --> 01:14:26 as wealth creating, right?
01:14:26 --> 01:14:29 So you hear about families like, you know, get handouts.
01:14:29 --> 01:14:33 So like white families, for example, benefited a lot more after World War II
01:14:33 --> 01:14:36 in financing the GI Bill for houses.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:38 Okay, so I get it. They're getting money, they're getting loans,
01:14:38 --> 01:14:43 bill houses, but I hadn't occurred to before that also our systems for relief.
01:14:44 --> 01:14:48 If applied unequally, then again, give this advantage.
01:14:48 --> 01:14:53 So I think it really opens up your eyes to the amount of things we have to reform,
01:14:54 --> 01:14:58 not just the benefits that are given out and so on, but also the relief.
01:14:58 --> 01:15:01 And does everybody have access to the same relief?
01:15:01 --> 01:15:04 And all kinds of programs that come up, especially in downturns,
01:15:04 --> 01:15:08 you have to say, do people know about it? Do they have equal access?
01:15:08 --> 01:15:12 Are they getting access to it? And a lot of times we have new equality come
01:15:12 --> 01:15:15 out of essentially mercy programs because it doesn't get spread equally. Yeah.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:22 Louise is making a really good point about the mercy programs,
01:15:22 --> 01:15:25 Eric, and how they can lead to inequality.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:28 I mean, like, for example, Social Security, you know, when it was initially
01:15:28 --> 01:15:33 set up, you know, Black Americans weren't eligible because they weren't in jobs
01:15:33 --> 01:15:40 that were eligible for Social Security because many of them were in either domestic or farming jobs.
01:15:40 --> 01:15:44 And when we think about, you know, World War II, and we think about the GI Bill,
01:15:44 --> 01:15:49 which Louise just mentioned, I mean, there was a very, very small percentage
01:15:49 --> 01:15:54 of Black Americans that could use the benefit, you know, to buy a home,
01:15:54 --> 01:15:55 which is wealth creation.
01:15:55 --> 01:16:00 And the GI Bill was set up for all GIs that had fought when they came back home
01:16:00 --> 01:16:03 to be able to buy homes, go to school, start businesses.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:07 And, you know, I'll tell you as an aside in the reporting for this book,
01:16:07 --> 01:16:12 you know, I found out that, you know, I have an unusual connection with the
01:16:12 --> 01:16:14 GI Bill. You know, my grandfather was a veteran.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:20 He had a purple heart and he was one of the few, like less than 3% of Black
01:16:20 --> 01:16:23 Americans that were able to use the GI Bill to even buy a home.
01:16:23 --> 01:16:28 And so, you know, sometimes when we see people in society that are,
01:16:28 --> 01:16:32 you know, successful, we may not realize, you know, like what their background
01:16:32 --> 01:16:35 is or how they may be unusual from other people.
01:16:35 --> 01:16:40 It really gave me a moment to reflect on how I didn't realize I had this unusual
01:16:40 --> 01:16:46 experience in my family tree compared to other Black Americans that were not
01:16:46 --> 01:16:51 able and where the majority of Black veterans were not able to use the bill
01:16:51 --> 01:16:52 for them and their families.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:58 Yeah. And then the other nuance about bankruptcy that, you know,
01:16:58 --> 01:17:01 people need to know is that it varies from state to state.
01:17:01 --> 01:17:07 There's federal bankruptcy laws, but then, you know, each state can modify it
01:17:07 --> 01:17:12 as far as, you know, just my experience in Mississippi, it was like,
01:17:13 --> 01:17:18 seemed like every year we had a bill saying, okay, well, we want to exempt this and exempt that.
01:17:18 --> 01:17:22 And it got to a point where, you know, we were joking with the chairman of the committee.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:26 It's like, are your rich friends talking to you every year about something they
01:17:26 --> 01:17:28 want to protect in these bankruptcy things?
01:17:28 --> 01:17:31 Because you keep bringing a bill every year. Can't you just come up with one
01:17:31 --> 01:17:34 bill that we just deal with that and keep it moving for a decade?
01:17:34 --> 01:17:39 But that's another nuance that catches people in that trap that it's like it
01:17:39 --> 01:17:46 depends on what state you're in, how much mercy or lack thereof that you will have.
01:17:46 --> 01:17:52 Talk about how the challenges y'all discuss in Chapter 10, which is black banking
01:17:52 --> 01:17:57 and civil rights, impact reducing the racial wealth gap.
01:17:58 --> 01:18:02 The challenges and what, Eric, I couldn't quite understand. The challenges that,
01:18:02 --> 01:18:06 you know, it was, you know, like there was conflicts like within the civil rights
01:18:06 --> 01:18:10 movement about dealing with, you know,
01:18:11 --> 01:18:14 economics or, you know, it was even a debate.
01:18:14 --> 01:18:20 It was just like one exchange where y'all talked about Andy Young and Dr.
01:18:20 --> 01:18:27 King were having dinner with Harry Belafonte and Andy Young was making a point and Dr.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:31 King said, well, you're a capitalist, I'm not, you know. And so that just kind
01:18:31 --> 01:18:36 of showed, you know, the conflict even within the civil rights movement about
01:18:36 --> 01:18:42 how to address poverty and the wealth gap issue.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:46 So just kind of talk about, because like I said, in chapter 10,
01:18:46 --> 01:18:47 y'all went deep into that.
01:18:48 --> 01:18:51 So just kind of give a summary of how that impacts.
01:18:51 --> 01:18:56 Well, you know, the civil rights movement, there are many different points of
01:18:56 --> 01:18:59 view within it, but there has been a lot of dissent about capitalism.
01:18:59 --> 01:19:04 Within the civil rights movement. And indeed, beyond civil rights in our society
01:19:04 --> 01:19:07 today, people of all racial groups, including white Americans,
01:19:07 --> 01:19:09 there's debate about capitalism, right?
01:19:09 --> 01:19:14 Like the whole Occupy Wall Street movement, which was not one racial group,
01:19:14 --> 01:19:17 and there were plenty of white, black, Latino, all different races of people
01:19:17 --> 01:19:20 out protesting the banks and Occupy Wall Street.
01:19:20 --> 01:19:25 So we have debate in our country on capitalism and had for a long time.
01:19:25 --> 01:19:28 And when Ebony and I were looking at the black-white wealth gap and looking
01:19:28 --> 01:19:30 at the civil rights leaders debating it.
01:19:30 --> 01:19:34 One of the big aha moments I had that left me.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:39 Not sure where all this was going to go was I realized over time and every day I got talking,
01:19:40 --> 01:19:44 and it was interesting when we discussed it, that some of the people who are
01:19:44 --> 01:19:49 very strong advocates for Black wealth creation and have done some things that
01:19:49 --> 01:19:50 have helped many Black Americans,
01:19:51 --> 01:19:56 Really, the way that they viewed the world was it would be a success for black
01:19:56 --> 01:20:01 Americans if there could be a distribution of wealth for black Americans that
01:20:01 --> 01:20:04 mirrors the distribution of wealth for white Americans.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:07 Remember, among white Americans, it's actually really unequal, too.
01:20:07 --> 01:20:14 So you could actually close a black-white wealth gap with the averages,
01:20:14 --> 01:20:17 if you compare the averages, not the medians, by making several more,
01:20:18 --> 01:20:20 a bunch more black billionaires.
01:20:22 --> 01:20:24 And most black families wouldn't have much more money because,
01:20:24 --> 01:20:25 you know, with an average, you're just going to pull it up.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:29 So at the end, as Ebony and I, as we really got deep in this,
01:20:29 --> 01:20:33 we're talking, we really ended up debating and trying to understand different
01:20:33 --> 01:20:37 leaders who are pushing for closing the black-white wealth gap. what did they mean?
01:20:38 --> 01:20:42 Do they mean a broader distribution of families having more wealth?
01:20:42 --> 01:20:49 Or did they mean a breakthrough in wealth for a small subset of Black professionals?
01:20:49 --> 01:20:52 And that's a nuance. A lot of times when you hear people say,
01:20:52 --> 01:20:57 we've got to close that gap, unless you really push them, you won't know where they are on that.
01:20:57 --> 01:21:01 Are they trying to close it for an elite group of Black Americans in one neighborhood?
01:21:02 --> 01:21:05 And by the way, maybe that's a legit point of view. And again,
01:21:05 --> 01:21:06 And that's how a lot of white Americans view it.
01:21:07 --> 01:21:11 But other black civil rights leaders like a Dr. Keem were much more focused
01:21:11 --> 01:21:14 on the like kind of the masses of black Americans.
01:21:16 --> 01:21:24 All right. And, you know, I just think about I was working for the ACLU right
01:21:24 --> 01:21:27 during the Black Lives Matter when it first started.
01:21:28 --> 01:21:34 And, you know, I was talking to a lot of the younger people because I kind of
01:21:34 --> 01:21:37 thought that they were going to go along the same lines.
01:21:37 --> 01:21:43 It's like we need to get rid of capitalism and and all this stuff and start
01:21:43 --> 01:21:45 anew and give everybody a chance.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:49 But most of the young people I talked to that were really into the movement,
01:21:49 --> 01:21:52 they were like, oh, no, we like making money. We like capitalism.
01:21:52 --> 01:21:59 We just want a fair opportunity to do it. And we want to, if we got a job,
01:21:59 --> 01:22:02 we want to make the same amount as somebody else and all that.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:08 So it's very nuanced. And I've had people on the show that have said we got
01:22:08 --> 01:22:12 to get rid of capitalism. And I've had people, you know, saying,
01:22:12 --> 01:22:15 you know, the more money they make, the better the country will be.
01:22:16 --> 01:22:19 So, you know, and then just some people say, well, we just need to have our
01:22:19 --> 01:22:23 own country and do things.
01:22:23 --> 01:22:31 So, you know, it's a very, I won't say touchy, but I don't think there's a consensus
01:22:31 --> 01:22:32 at this particular point.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:37 I think there's a majority view, but I don't think there's a consensus and strategy,
01:22:37 --> 01:22:41 which kind of leads me to the next question.
01:22:41 --> 01:22:49 In Chapter 11, you write about the impacts, stock ownership and tax policy exacerbate the gap.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:54 You further admonish the readers and the afterward to support more transparency
01:22:54 --> 01:23:00 into wealth distribution and ask who benefits from new government policies.
01:23:00 --> 01:23:07 So my question to you all is, in your opinion, is there any specific policies
01:23:07 --> 01:23:13 or actions that government can undertake to reduce the racial wealth gap in America?
01:23:14 --> 01:23:21 Well, I'll start us off on that. I mean, Eric, we didn't take a policy perspective on purpose and,
01:23:22 --> 01:23:28 journalists. You know, we don't, but just a couple talking about and what's happening.
01:23:28 --> 01:23:32 And that's how we approach this book. So we made personal recommendations at the end.
01:23:33 --> 01:23:39 I've been watching some of the discussion at the federal level about whether or not companies,
01:23:39 --> 01:23:45 LLCs, should be limited in how many homes they can purchase and what the impact
01:23:45 --> 01:23:50 could be on that for people trying to buy homes and available home stock.
01:23:50 --> 01:23:56 And, you know, we do cover, you know, the difference in home ownership rates in the book.
01:23:56 --> 01:24:02 And, you know, for certain generations that has led to wealth creation.
01:24:02 --> 01:24:08 There is a debate among younger Black Americans whether or not that is the way
01:24:08 --> 01:24:11 to go and whether they should do other things with their money,
01:24:11 --> 01:24:15 such as, you know, invest in the stock market or start businesses.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:20 The other thing from a policy perspective, you know, that I've been watching,
01:24:20 --> 01:24:23 because I still have, you know, a little bit, not that much,
01:24:23 --> 01:24:27 but I still have a little bit of graduate student loans, is,
01:24:27 --> 01:24:30 you know, what will happen with, you know, loan forgiveness in our country.
01:24:31 --> 01:24:35 And at one point, we were moving in that direction, and then it's been, you know, reversed.
01:24:35 --> 01:24:39 And that wasn't a policy that was targeting one group of people,
01:24:39 --> 01:24:44 but certainly, you know, Black Americans that, you know, attend college tend
01:24:44 --> 01:24:48 to have higher amounts of debt, you know, and stood to benefit,
01:24:48 --> 01:24:50 you know, from that policy.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:53 I think, Eric, by the way, what policy could change it? Like,
01:24:54 --> 01:24:58 before we can even answer that, I think you'd have to have a country where people
01:24:58 --> 01:25:02 want wealth gaps to be decreased.
01:25:03 --> 01:25:09 And I don't think that's the state of our country or I don't know about the whole world.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:11 But, you know, people don't want to talk about them.
01:25:12 --> 01:25:15 People, you know, even a few years ago when we first started working on the
01:25:15 --> 01:25:20 book after 2020, people were very enthusiastic to learn more about racial wealth gaps.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:23 Now, if you bring the topic up, people say, well, those are gaps.
01:25:24 --> 01:25:27 Let's not talk about what divides us. Let's talk about what unites us.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:30 Well, we're not really united in our wealth levels, and people don't want to
01:25:30 --> 01:25:32 talk about that, and that's because people don't want to address it.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:37 So I don't think you even can really deeply go into these policies if basically
01:25:37 --> 01:25:43 we're in a society where so many people are focused on preserving what they
01:25:43 --> 01:25:45 have rather than pushing for wider progress.
01:25:46 --> 01:25:52 Yeah, you know, I agree. First of all, I, you know, I agree with y'all's strategy,
01:25:52 --> 01:25:56 not that you needed my approval, but I agree with y'all's strategy of not getting
01:25:56 --> 01:25:59 into the meat of the policy stuff.
01:26:00 --> 01:26:05 Just present the facts and let people that I used to be and,
01:26:05 --> 01:26:10 you know, other elected officials take the data and do what they need to do with it.
01:26:10 --> 01:26:16 I think that's a great observation, Louise, that, you know, we don't really
01:26:16 --> 01:26:22 have a collective will to to push for equality because everybody thinks,
01:26:22 --> 01:26:25 well, if if they get something,
01:26:25 --> 01:26:27 then I'm going to lose something. Right.
01:26:28 --> 01:26:33 And, you know, when you try to explain to people, there's literally one percent
01:26:33 --> 01:26:38 of the nation that controls 50 percent of the wealth in this country.
01:26:38 --> 01:26:41 It's like, if anybody's going to be losing it, it's those folks.
01:26:41 --> 01:26:43 The rest of us will benefit from that.
01:26:44 --> 01:26:49 But, you know, and I always remember that Lending Tree commercial.
01:26:49 --> 01:26:52 I don't know if y'all remember the one where the guy is like.
01:26:52 --> 01:26:56 You know, mowing his lawn and he's out playing golf and then,
01:26:56 --> 01:26:58 you know, he's, you know, explaining his life.
01:26:58 --> 01:27:02 And then he turns to the camera and he says, and I'm in debt to my eyeballs.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:03 You know what I'm saying?
01:27:04 --> 01:27:07 These are the, this is the reality we live in.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:11 Right. And you even address it that most Americans have a quote unquote negative
01:27:11 --> 01:27:18 net worth because they're paying a mortgage. They're paying a car note.
01:27:18 --> 01:27:20 They don't own it outright.
01:27:20 --> 01:27:23 You know what I'm saying? And they're financing these things.
01:27:24 --> 01:27:32 So we count it as an asset. But is it really because you don't totally own it
01:27:32 --> 01:27:34 just yet? You're still paying on those bills.
01:27:35 --> 01:27:39 So I really like the way that y'all went about it.
01:27:39 --> 01:27:45 And then I had a privilege of attending a workshop. That's how we met.
01:27:46 --> 01:27:53 And, you know, just to have the panel and have experts come in and kind of expound on it and all that,
01:27:53 --> 01:27:59 I think y'all really did a great job in laying out the case that we have this
01:27:59 --> 01:28:01 problem and it needs to be solved.
01:28:01 --> 01:28:11 And we need to have, in my Star Trek language, a collective mind to solve this problem.
01:28:11 --> 01:28:19 So before I get into, you know, asking y'all about how people can get involved,
01:28:19 --> 01:28:21 I want y'all to finish this sentence for me.
01:28:21 --> 01:28:23 I have hope because...
01:28:25 --> 01:28:31 Well, I have hope because more and more people, you know, through many aspects
01:28:31 --> 01:28:35 of our society are closer with each other in the U.S. and also globally.
01:28:36 --> 01:28:42 And the approach of our book was to let you get to know some people in the book.
01:28:42 --> 01:28:46 And, you know, you really get to know the people in the book,
01:28:46 --> 01:28:48 and they really seem like people
01:28:48 --> 01:28:53 you could just go on a trip with or sit next to at lunch or, you know—,
01:28:54 --> 01:28:58 And some people, I think anyone reading our book, no matter your politics,
01:28:58 --> 01:29:04 no matter your age, no matter your wealth or income level, you will relate to
01:29:04 --> 01:29:09 the people on our book who may or may not be similar to you in those dimensions.
01:29:09 --> 01:29:13 And so the thing that gives me the most hope is when I see people connecting
01:29:13 --> 01:29:18 with other people on a very human level, and as we see that,
01:29:18 --> 01:29:22 we can all understand the commonality on a human level,
01:29:22 --> 01:29:27 fear of differences can be removed, and then differences that are meaningless,
01:29:27 --> 01:29:31 and then we can address the differences that are meaningful,
01:29:31 --> 01:29:33 like why is it that wealth is different?
01:29:33 --> 01:29:36 So I just get hope when I see, you know, those kind of connections.
01:29:36 --> 01:29:40 And I'm so fortunate to have been able to work in partnership with Ebony on the book.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:44 You know, she and I have so much in common. We're both kind of middle-aged,
01:29:44 --> 01:29:48 sorry, Ebony, but we're middle-aged professionals, been in journalism a few decades.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:51 Both of us went to good colleges, worked at great institutions.
01:29:52 --> 01:29:53 But we have some differences.
01:29:53 --> 01:29:56 We're both, you know, we're black and white. We're different races.
01:29:56 --> 01:30:01 But also we understand more deeply that our skin color,
01:30:01 --> 01:30:05 though I didn't come from a super long lineage of wealthy families,
01:30:05 --> 01:30:09 the white privilege that some of my family has had, you know,
01:30:09 --> 01:30:12 my father is the first in his family to go to college, but had he been black,
01:30:12 --> 01:30:16 he couldn't have done what he did for various reasons, which I put in the afterward of the book.
01:30:17 --> 01:30:20 So understanding that, working together, we learned a lot.
01:30:20 --> 01:30:24 So one recommendation we give in the book is that we hope more people will find
01:30:24 --> 01:30:28 a meaningful way in their life to partner with someone who's very different,
01:30:28 --> 01:30:31 maybe a different racial group, maybe a very different economic level.
01:30:31 --> 01:30:35 And not just like a little project, but like where you've got your reputation
01:30:35 --> 01:30:36 on the line and your money on the line.
01:30:36 --> 01:30:41 It's a lot of time because Ebony and I, I don't know, tell me you disagree, Ebony.
01:30:41 --> 01:30:45 Like I learned through reporting, but I also learned by working so hard to just
01:30:45 --> 01:30:48 have a fair partnership with you when the reality is lives are different and
01:30:48 --> 01:30:50 you have to work at Fairness.
01:30:50 --> 01:30:54 I agree. I agree. Definitely. It has been a privilege to work with you too,
01:30:54 --> 01:30:58 Louise, and on this book and in the work around it.
01:30:58 --> 01:31:03 I mean, I would add to that, that, you know, Eric, I have hope because through
01:31:03 --> 01:31:09 this work, I better understand the history of wealth and money in our country
01:31:09 --> 01:31:11 and my own family history.
01:31:12 --> 01:31:16 And when you start to peel back the layers and you start to like trace your
01:31:16 --> 01:31:22 family tree, and then you see, oh, this person in my family line experienced
01:31:22 --> 01:31:25 these challenges, and this is how they overcame it,
01:31:25 --> 01:31:30 then it does give you a little bit of hope and a little bit of a boost where
01:31:30 --> 01:31:33 you think like, well, I can, you know, overcome things too.
01:31:34 --> 01:31:38 And so, you know, I hope through the stories of the people that,
01:31:38 --> 01:31:41 you know, people will read about in the book, as they encounter them and they
01:31:41 --> 01:31:45 see that they face challenges too, you see that they never gave up hope.
01:31:45 --> 01:31:49 And then you see who they're related to and you see like, well,
01:31:49 --> 01:31:50 those people didn't give up hope.
01:31:50 --> 01:31:55 You know, that I hope it will, you know, encourage other people to be hopeful,
01:31:55 --> 01:31:58 but then to also think about who are they related to and maybe they want to
01:31:58 --> 01:32:04 trace their family tree and go on their own family journey as well. Yeah, yeah.
01:32:05 --> 01:32:07 Just talking to somebody else.
01:32:08 --> 01:32:15 About history is just like the biggest treasure trove you have is your own family.
01:32:16 --> 01:32:19 And it's, you know, just going through this American experience,
01:32:19 --> 01:32:21 doesn't matter if you're black, white, whatever.
01:32:22 --> 01:32:26 And one of my regrets is just not sitting down with a recorder with some of
01:32:26 --> 01:32:31 my older relatives and just saying, so what was that really, really like?
01:32:31 --> 01:32:40 You know what I'm saying? So I'm always appreciate people who take the time to do that.
01:32:40 --> 01:32:46 And one of the reasons why this book, I think, is so successful is because you told a story.
01:32:47 --> 01:32:52 And, you know, in politics, if we had more people to tell stories,
01:32:52 --> 01:32:57 then I think we would have more responsive leaders.
01:32:57 --> 01:33:04 We would elect people, the storytellers, the people that can combine and be
01:33:04 --> 01:33:08 able to express things where people can relate to it.
01:33:08 --> 01:33:12 You would start seeing consensus being built.
01:33:12 --> 01:33:18 Anyway, I'm not going to go on my political speech. I want y'all to tell the
01:33:18 --> 01:33:23 listeners how they can do like I did and show up at a workshop that y'all are
01:33:23 --> 01:33:27 conducting or buy the book or get in touch with y'all. How can people do that?
01:33:29 --> 01:33:32 They should read the book. I think they'll get a lot out of reading the book.
01:33:32 --> 01:33:37 And then at this juncture, if they want to do a workshop with us, they should email us.
01:33:37 --> 01:33:41 You can contact us through our website, which is 15cents.info.
01:33:41 --> 01:33:44 So it's just one five cents.info.
01:33:44 --> 01:33:47 And there's a contact button at the bottom, which will email us.
01:33:47 --> 01:33:52 They should get together a large group of people, ideally, probably given how
01:33:52 --> 01:33:54 life is busy, to come on to a Zoom with us.
01:33:54 --> 01:33:58 And we would be glad to answer their questions, hear their stories and share insights.
01:33:59 --> 01:34:01 That they get a big group of people together who are going to read this book
01:34:01 --> 01:34:03 and think about these important topics.
01:34:04 --> 01:34:07 And that's kind of what we're able to do right now. But we're so honored when
01:34:07 --> 01:34:10 people are reading the book and discussing this and spreading this data.
01:34:11 --> 01:34:15 Yes, and we're also both, you know, active on the social. We're on LinkedIn.
01:34:15 --> 01:34:18 People can also reach out there too and DM us as well.
01:34:18 --> 01:34:24 All right. Well, Louise Story and Ebony Reed, this was worth it.
01:34:25 --> 01:34:28 This was worth my pursuit to get y'all to come on.
01:34:29 --> 01:34:34 I greatly admire you, ladies. I greatly admire the passion that you've put into
01:34:34 --> 01:34:38 it and to utilize your talents to tell the story.
01:34:38 --> 01:34:43 And I also encourage people to get the book. It's called 15 Cents on the Dollar,
01:34:44 --> 01:34:46 How Americans Made the Black-White Wealth Gap.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:50 So thank you all for taking the time out and being on the podcast.
01:34:51 --> 01:34:54 Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch you all on the other side.
01:35:14 --> 01:35:20 All right, and we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Elizabeth Jamison.
01:35:21 --> 01:35:27 Elizabeth Jamison, also known as Libby, was born into a Navy family and moved
01:35:27 --> 01:35:29 four times before she turned 10 years old.
01:35:30 --> 01:35:33 Following her father's retirement from the submarine service,
01:35:33 --> 01:35:37 the family moved to a remote village in the Cascade Mountains in Washington
01:35:37 --> 01:35:39 State, unreachable by car.
01:35:40 --> 01:35:43 Libby attended a one-room schoolhouse until eighth grade.
01:35:43 --> 01:35:47 After graduating from high school, she attended the University of Washington,
01:35:47 --> 01:35:51 Seattle, where she majored in law, societies, and justice.
01:35:51 --> 01:35:56 After marrying a naval aviator and undergoing her first permanent change of
01:35:56 --> 01:35:59 station move, Libby found herself in San Diego.
01:35:59 --> 01:36:04 She immediately enrolled in the Thomas Jefferson School of Law and graduated
01:36:04 --> 01:36:10 cum laude after serving as a law review member and fellow for the Thomas Jefferson
01:36:10 --> 01:36:13 School of Law Center for Law and Social Justice.
01:36:14 --> 01:36:19 Since beginning her legal career almost two decades ago, Libby has dedicated
01:36:19 --> 01:36:21 herself to meaningful advocacy.
01:36:22 --> 01:36:27 She found ways to contribute to her community no matter where the military sent her family.
01:36:27 --> 01:36:32 After several years in private practice as a family law attorney,
01:36:32 --> 01:36:37 during which she volunteered with guardianship and domestic violence legal workshops,
01:36:37 --> 01:36:40 she started with the Military Spouse J.D.
01:36:40 --> 01:36:43 Network, ultimately serving as president of the organization,
01:36:43 --> 01:36:47 supporting career-minded military spouses in the legal profession.
01:36:48 --> 01:36:54 MSJDN successfully advocated for licensing accommodations in over 40 jurisdictions
01:36:54 --> 01:36:57 to reduce employment barriers for military spouses,
01:36:57 --> 01:37:03 laying the foundation for the January 2023 Congressional Amendment to the Service
01:37:03 --> 01:37:07 Members Civil Relief Act, allowing service members and their spouses to use
01:37:07 --> 01:37:11 their professional licenses when they relocate due to military orders.
01:37:12 --> 01:37:17 Libby has served in a variety of ways, including leading the San Diego Military
01:37:17 --> 01:37:20 Spouse Economic Empowerment Zone for the U.S.
01:37:20 --> 01:37:25 Chamber of Commerce and organizing the Homefront Rising Initiative to encourage
01:37:25 --> 01:37:28 military family voices and civic leadership.
01:37:28 --> 01:37:32 While earning a master's degree in public leadership from the University of
01:37:32 --> 01:37:37 San Francisco, she authored the Military Spouse's Guide to Running for Office.
01:37:38 --> 01:37:43 Libby's advocacy took her to D.C., where she spent seven years as an attorney
01:37:43 --> 01:37:45 advisor at the Department of Veterans Affairs.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:51 She also spent a year on Capitol Hill advising Senator Tom Tillis on issues
01:37:51 --> 01:37:54 relating to veterans and military-connected families.
01:37:55 --> 01:38:00 Libby then moved to the White House, serving as senior advisor to Joining Forces, Dr.
01:38:01 --> 01:38:06 Biden's initiative supporting veteran and military families' caregivers and survivors.
01:38:07 --> 01:38:12 There, she coordinated the interagency process, obtaining over 80 commitments
01:38:12 --> 01:38:18 to veterans and military families as outlined in the September 2021 White House
01:38:18 --> 01:38:21 Strengthening America's Military Families report.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:27 She also spearheaded the June 2023 Executive Order on Advancing Economic Security
01:38:27 --> 01:38:29 for Military and Veteran Spouses,
01:38:29 --> 01:38:35 Military Caregivers, and Survivors, a comprehensive set of executive actions
01:38:35 --> 01:38:39 to increase the economic security of military-connected families,
01:38:39 --> 01:38:45 including nearly 20 actions aimed at enhancing career stability and expanding
01:38:45 --> 01:38:48 employment resources and support for this community.
01:38:48 --> 01:38:54 During the 2024 presidential cycle, Libby worked on the legal team at the Democratic
01:38:54 --> 01:38:58 National Committee and then served as National Director of Veteran and Military
01:38:58 --> 01:39:01 Family Engagement for the Harris-Walls campaign.
01:39:01 --> 01:39:07 Post-campaign, she founded State of Grace Counseling to help organizations tackle
01:39:07 --> 01:39:11 the issues most important to our communities and our country through strategic
01:39:11 --> 01:39:14 partnerships, policy development, research, and more.
01:39:14 --> 01:39:17 She also serves as principal attorney at E.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:23 Grace Law Firm, with a focus on supporting veterans, families, and small businesses.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:31 For her efforts, Libby has been recognized as Military.com's 2019 Spouse Changemaker
01:39:31 --> 01:39:34 of the Year, a 2019 scholar with the George W.
01:39:35 --> 01:39:42 Bush Institute's Stand to Veteran Leadership Program, and a member of the 2023 Mighty 25.
01:39:42 --> 01:39:47 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
01:39:47 --> 01:39:51 on this podcast, Elizabeth Jamison.
01:40:01 --> 01:40:05 All right. Elizabeth Jamison, how are you doing?
01:40:06 --> 01:40:11 Good. How are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. Glad to have you on.
01:40:12 --> 01:40:16 I don't know where I saw. I saw you on television somewhere.
01:40:17 --> 01:40:23 And I said, I probably need to talk to her because there's a lot of issues I
01:40:23 --> 01:40:26 pay attention to and commit to.
01:40:26 --> 01:40:34 One of the things that I've always had a fascination with is how America treats its veterans.
01:40:35 --> 01:40:41 And I just, you know, the history of this nation and how they used to do stuff.
01:40:42 --> 01:40:50 And I guess the most jarring thing that bothered me was, I can't remember when
01:40:50 --> 01:40:55 it was I went to Washington, D.C., but I had to go by the Veterans Administration office.
01:40:55 --> 01:40:58 And since you've worked there, you know what I'm talking about.
01:40:58 --> 01:41:00 There's a park like right across the street.
01:41:00 --> 01:41:05 Yeah. And it was just a bunch. I mean, it was almost like the park was full.
01:41:05 --> 01:41:10 I thought it was a demonstration at first, but it was just a bunch of homeless veterans.
01:41:11 --> 01:41:15 And they were camped out, I guess, to try to get attention or wherever the case
01:41:15 --> 01:41:17 may be, but they were all camped out there.
01:41:17 --> 01:41:23 And I just said, that doesn't make any sense. How is it that we ask people to
01:41:23 --> 01:41:29 serve and we can provide them housing when they're serving, but we can't guarantee
01:41:29 --> 01:41:31 that they have housing when they're out?
01:41:31 --> 01:41:34 And I understand there's some other issues, but even at that,
01:41:35 --> 01:41:41 we, you know, we got the VA homes and all that stuff. So the way that America
01:41:41 --> 01:41:43 has treated veterans has always been an issue with me.
01:41:44 --> 01:41:47 And the fact that you have set up an organization to deal with a whole other
01:41:47 --> 01:41:53 subject relating to veterans, it was kind of like, okay, let me get her on and
01:41:53 --> 01:41:54 let's talk about some of those things.
01:41:55 --> 01:41:57 But I also want to talk about some perspectives that's going on.
01:41:58 --> 01:42:00 So, again, thank you for doing that.
01:42:00 --> 01:42:05 Normally how I start off the show, I do a couple of icebreaking exercises.
01:42:05 --> 01:42:10 And the first one is, I want you to respond to a quote.
01:42:10 --> 01:42:17 And the quote is, my advice to others is to find a way to have a positive impact.
01:42:18 --> 01:42:22 Speak up and act, whether it's through volunteer or paid work.
01:42:23 --> 01:42:27 Finding a way to help others facing the same challenges as you are is a great
01:42:27 --> 01:42:32 way to give back and overcome your situation. Give me your thoughts on that quote.
01:42:32 --> 01:42:39 I think that's so true. I'd love to know who said that, because I think that
01:42:39 --> 01:42:43 aligns with so much of the work that I've done,
01:42:43 --> 01:42:47 you know, a lot of it in a volunteer capacity, sometimes for my own,
01:42:47 --> 01:42:50 you know, my own mental health.
01:42:50 --> 01:42:54 A lot of the stuff I do now, working with military families,
01:42:54 --> 01:42:59 trying to rally them to speak up about so many of these issues that really matter,
01:42:59 --> 01:43:02 is just because I feel like their voices are not being heard.
01:43:03 --> 01:43:07 And, you know, I want to be able to lay my head on the pillow at night and know
01:43:07 --> 01:43:14 that I've done everything that I can to push back and to help elevate those voices.
01:43:14 --> 01:43:23 To answer your question, the person who said that quote was a woman named Elizabeth Jameson. Yeah.
01:43:25 --> 01:43:28 So, you know, I know it sounds so good.
01:43:29 --> 01:43:34 All right. So now the next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions.
01:43:35 --> 01:43:39 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Oh, okay.
01:43:40 --> 01:43:43 Oh, a number now. Okay. 16. All right.
01:43:44 --> 01:43:51 What some misconception people often have about your beliefs or values? Hmm.
01:43:52 --> 01:44:01 Well, I think as a white woman who grew up in a military family and in the military
01:44:01 --> 01:44:07 community, a lot of people ascribe, you know, conservative values to me,
01:44:07 --> 01:44:11 or I would say Republican values to me right off the bat.
01:44:11 --> 01:44:16 That because they've heard, you know, the myth that everyone in the military
01:44:16 --> 01:44:23 community always votes Republican or so it's really interesting sometimes to
01:44:23 --> 01:44:25 see that that automatic assumption.
01:44:25 --> 01:44:30 And as somebody who spent, you know, I was fortunate enough to serve on the
01:44:30 --> 01:44:34 Harris campaign as the director of engagement for veterans and military families.
01:44:34 --> 01:44:38 So I know how many of us there are out there that fought veterans.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:43 For her and for what they believed in and, and to protect democracy.
01:44:44 --> 01:44:49 So that assumption always, you know, I guess I understand it given there,
01:44:49 --> 01:44:51 there is a large, you know,
01:44:51 --> 01:44:55 portion of the, the military population that, that certainly is conservative,
01:44:55 --> 01:45:00 but in this day and age, I just find that a really interesting assumption that happens,
01:45:01 --> 01:45:03 happens all the time. Okay.
01:45:03 --> 01:45:10 All right. What is your initial concern about our current military involvement in Iran?
01:45:11 --> 01:45:14 Well, where to begin?
01:45:15 --> 01:45:21 I am concerned as a lawyer and someone who is supposed to care about the rule
01:45:21 --> 01:45:26 of law in this country, which I hope we all do, but especially as someone in
01:45:26 --> 01:45:28 the legal profession, The way,
01:45:29 --> 01:45:36 just the mechanics of how we have entered into this are clearly in violation of the Constitution.
01:45:36 --> 01:45:41 I was actually just watching CNN, and a Republican congressman was on there
01:45:41 --> 01:45:46 saying this, so I don't think this is, you know, a partisan take.
01:45:46 --> 01:45:52 This is about the Constitution and the principles that guide our country and
01:45:52 --> 01:45:58 that clearly give Congress the power to decide whether we go to war with another country.
01:45:58 --> 01:46:03 And I think that's the way it should be. It's a really serious issue.
01:46:03 --> 01:46:09 We saw from 20-plus years of when we already did this in the Middle East—.
01:46:10 --> 01:46:15 You know, billions of dollars, trillions of dollars, thousands of hundreds of
01:46:15 --> 01:46:20 thousands of lives lost, you know, great personal and human costs.
01:46:20 --> 01:46:25 And we should have a debate about this as a country. It shouldn't be one person
01:46:25 --> 01:46:29 or one person in his posse who decides this.
01:46:29 --> 01:46:31 And so I think that is really troubling.
01:46:32 --> 01:46:36 Whereas even if this was debated and the ultimate outcome was,
01:46:36 --> 01:46:40 yes, we're still going to go to war, I would still have qualms with that.
01:46:41 --> 01:46:46 But at least we would have followed the process that exists for a reason.
01:46:46 --> 01:46:50 And so that's certainly a really troubling piece of it.
01:46:50 --> 01:46:56 And then as someone who still has, you know, friends and family around the globe
01:46:56 --> 01:47:00 who are being impacted by this, just really personally,
01:47:00 --> 01:47:06 it's been a really tough week or so for the military-connected community.
01:47:07 --> 01:47:13 I know a lot of veterans who are having old feelings come back up watching another
01:47:13 --> 01:47:20 generation go through exactly what they went through, and it's like banging your head on the wall,
01:47:20 --> 01:47:24 and you want to be able to protect them and stop them from...
01:47:25 --> 01:47:28 What every veteran knows they're about to go and experience.
01:47:29 --> 01:47:35 And military families, I was just reading, they closed the labor and delivery
01:47:35 --> 01:47:38 unit at the biggest military hospital in Germany.
01:47:38 --> 01:47:44 So military families no longer have anywhere to deliver their children.
01:47:44 --> 01:47:48 They have to go out in town and find somebody to help them because I assume
01:47:48 --> 01:47:54 the DOD is preparing for, they're expecting casualties and worse.
01:47:55 --> 01:47:59 At that hospital. So I just think there's really wide ranging,
01:47:59 --> 01:48:04 you know, there's the big policy impacts that we're talking about in D.C.
01:48:04 --> 01:48:12 Down to these daily, you know, real world impacts that these families are experiencing as we speak.
01:48:12 --> 01:48:15 So it's really, really troubling.
01:48:16 --> 01:48:20 Yeah. And I know we had scheduled this like months in advance,
01:48:20 --> 01:48:26 but, you know, the timing has, you know, my history, my timing has always been
01:48:26 --> 01:48:29 really, really good when the guest comes on.
01:48:29 --> 01:48:34 And I couldn't think of a better person to have on dealing with it because it's
01:48:34 --> 01:48:40 not just about everybody is just focused in on either the tactics that we're
01:48:40 --> 01:48:42 using or the process and how we got there.
01:48:43 --> 01:48:49 But the thing I really appreciate you is that you are bringing the humanity
01:48:49 --> 01:48:55 into it. And I think a lot of times when we talk about wars or military actions,
01:48:55 --> 01:48:57 we forget that they are human beings.
01:48:58 --> 01:49:04 And so I'm really, really glad that you said what you said about the impact
01:49:04 --> 01:49:12 and how the veterans feel about other young men and women following in their footsteps in that way.
01:49:13 --> 01:49:17 You brought up about the labor and delivery unit in Germany.
01:49:18 --> 01:49:25 Overall, how much damage has been done to veterans due to budget cuts and layoffs from the VA?
01:49:26 --> 01:49:33 Oh, I don't think we're going to have a whole answer to that for years to come.
01:49:33 --> 01:49:39 Because, you know, with everything that happened with Doge coming in right off
01:49:39 --> 01:49:43 of the bat, And there was reporting about, you know,
01:49:44 --> 01:49:49 veterans information being entered into these AI platforms.
01:49:49 --> 01:49:56 So there could be everything from privacy, you know, issues and exposures that
01:49:56 --> 01:50:02 we don't even know about to, again, these, you know, trickle down effects of cutting the budget.
01:50:02 --> 01:50:06 But one of the first things this administration came in and did,
01:50:06 --> 01:50:10 I think a lot of folks know now, is just decimated the federal workforce.
01:50:11 --> 01:50:16 And that federal workforce is about a third veterans because so many veterans,
01:50:16 --> 01:50:19 you know, we've kind of touched on this, but, you know, after service.
01:50:20 --> 01:50:24 You maybe you're finished with your time in uniform, but you still want to find
01:50:24 --> 01:50:27 a meaningful mission and to serve your country.
01:50:27 --> 01:50:30 And the federal government, it was a great way to do that.
01:50:31 --> 01:50:36 Whether it was still at DOD in a civilian position, a lot of folks went to VA
01:50:36 --> 01:50:43 to help support their fellow veterans and their families or in other agencies doing great work.
01:50:43 --> 01:50:51 And so there was a huge immediate impact, you know, to lose an income potentially right out of the gate.
01:50:51 --> 01:50:54 And there was not a lot of, you know, they didn't come in with a scalpel.
01:50:55 --> 01:50:58 They came in and just smashed and fired.
01:50:58 --> 01:51:00 And that was really important.
01:51:01 --> 01:51:06 And then add on top of that, you know, putting salt in the wound.
01:51:07 --> 01:51:13 The administration wanted to cut 80 positions at VA itself, which.
01:51:14 --> 01:51:18 You know, we talk about, you opened talking about some of the issues with VA
01:51:18 --> 01:51:22 not living up to its promise when it was fully staffed.
01:51:22 --> 01:51:27 And so to cut 80 is, I just really struggled with the math to understand
01:51:27 --> 01:51:33 how we're going to deliver better services to veterans by cutting 80 people
01:51:33 --> 01:51:35 who are there to help them.
01:51:35 --> 01:51:37 And they ended up rolling that number down.
01:51:38 --> 01:51:42 They've said it's now about 30, which I still think is an incredibly huge
01:51:42 --> 01:51:49 number and is going to cause a lot of this damage that's hard to capture now.
01:51:49 --> 01:51:54 But when you think about veterans going in to try and find housing and that
01:51:54 --> 01:51:58 person isn't answering the phone who's supposed to be there to help them,
01:51:58 --> 01:52:05 or a caregiver reaching out because they need respite services and that program is no longer staffed.
01:52:05 --> 01:52:13 I mean, again, there are these very real world harms that are hard to capture.
01:52:13 --> 01:52:20 And the other thing I would say on this that is incredibly problematic is President
01:52:20 --> 01:52:22 Biden signed the PACT Act into law.
01:52:22 --> 01:52:28 And for folks who may not be familiar, that was similar to what we did for veterans
01:52:28 --> 01:52:31 in Vietnam who were exposed to Agent Orange.
01:52:31 --> 01:52:34 Well, we had the same thing with folks who went to the Middle East and were
01:52:34 --> 01:52:40 exposed to burn pits, toxins, all kinds of bad stuff that was causing a host
01:52:40 --> 01:52:44 of medical issues, respiratory issues, cancer, all kinds of stuff.
01:52:45 --> 01:52:46 I actually was thinking about the
01:52:46 --> 01:52:49 PACT Act when you were talking about the veterans camping out in the park.
01:52:50 --> 01:52:54 Because veterans had to camp out on the stairs of Congress to force them to
01:52:54 --> 01:52:58 pass the PACT Act, which, you know, talk about not taking care of our people
01:52:58 --> 01:53:02 after we send them to war. It was pretty egregious.
01:53:02 --> 01:53:07 But the PACT Act opened the doors so that we could serve even more veterans
01:53:07 --> 01:53:11 who were experiencing these medical issues and make sure that they weren't waiting
01:53:11 --> 01:53:17 30 years like we did to the Agent Orange folks and make sure that we got them in to take care of them.
01:53:17 --> 01:53:22 And so they staffed up, they hired a lot of people because the PACT Act widened
01:53:22 --> 01:53:26 the aperture for folks to get treatment and support.
01:53:26 --> 01:53:30 So to now roll that back, again, the math just doesn't add up.
01:53:31 --> 01:53:36 And I think it's really sad to think about the damage that is happening.
01:53:36 --> 01:53:42 Some of it, like I said, we may not even know the full impact of yet because it's still playing out.
01:53:43 --> 01:53:49 Yeah, and obviously you also have an incredible ability to foresee the future
01:53:49 --> 01:53:54 because that was literally the next question I was going to ask you about the PACT Act.
01:53:55 --> 01:54:02 And its impacts, because I think it was a great thing for it to pass.
01:54:02 --> 01:54:07 But like you said, if, you know, if you're going to cut personnel,
01:54:07 --> 01:54:12 that's going to have a negative impact on implementing that,
01:54:12 --> 01:54:14 especially at the VA hospital.
01:54:14 --> 01:54:17 So I'm glad you touched on that and that answer.
01:54:18 --> 01:54:24 So let's get into some of some of your work that you've been doing outside of the VA.
01:54:25 --> 01:54:29 Tell the story of how you got involved with the Military Spouses J.D.
01:54:29 --> 01:54:32 Network and explain the primary purpose of the organization.
01:54:33 --> 01:54:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I'll say I'm no longer at VA. I have my own solo practice
01:54:37 --> 01:54:39 now, which is why I can say a lot of what I want.
01:54:42 --> 01:54:44 But Military Spouse J.D. Network
01:54:44 --> 01:54:50 is a fantastic organization that I became a part of in, gosh, 2013.
01:54:51 --> 01:54:55 And I was a young Navy spouse at the time, a young lawyer.
01:54:55 --> 01:54:59 I had gone to law school. I was the first one in my family to go to law school.
01:54:59 --> 01:55:03 I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't talk to a lot of lawyers beforehand.
01:55:03 --> 01:55:09 I should have done a little more homework because I thought there's lawyers everywhere, right?
01:55:09 --> 01:55:13 Like it's not gonna be that hard to find a job. Everybody needs a lawyer.
01:55:14 --> 01:55:18 They're all over the US. There's probably too many of us, but not a problem.
01:55:18 --> 01:55:23 And I didn't think through the licensing piece of it, which for your listeners
01:55:23 --> 01:55:28 who may be in a licensed field, which there's so many, and I could do a whole
01:55:28 --> 01:55:29 podcast about the, like,
01:55:30 --> 01:55:34 occupational licensing overreach in this country, but they'll know,
01:55:34 --> 01:55:39 you know, a lot of times a license in one state won't transfer to another state.
01:55:39 --> 01:55:42 And it's a really big problem for a lot of folks.
01:55:43 --> 01:55:48 You know, in today's society, we don't just stay in one place a lot of the times anymore.
01:55:48 --> 01:55:52 But especially for military families who move around every two or three years,
01:55:52 --> 01:55:54 usually not by choice. The military
01:55:54 --> 01:55:57 says you're going to do it or you're going to be in a lot of trouble.
01:55:58 --> 01:56:03 And so after we'd moved a couple of times and I had taken two bar exams,
01:56:03 --> 01:56:04 I said, you know what? I think I'm good.
01:56:04 --> 01:56:09 I never want to take another bar exam, especially just to go somewhere for two
01:56:09 --> 01:56:16 years and you pay all of this money. it was like $5 to take the bar exam in, I think, Florida.
01:56:16 --> 01:56:20 I was like, we're moving again in two years. It just doesn't make sense.
01:56:20 --> 01:56:25 And so I was trying to figure out what to do and came across MSJDN,
01:56:25 --> 01:56:29 which was, you know, finding my people who were in the same situation.
01:56:29 --> 01:56:36 And we really came together, advocated for reduced licensing barriers and some
01:56:36 --> 01:56:43 reciprocity, essentially in the states if we were moving because of the military to say,
01:56:43 --> 01:56:48 you know, here's a way that you can make life easier and less stressful for
01:56:48 --> 01:56:51 military families and reduce some of the economic impact.
01:56:51 --> 01:56:56 I think a lot of folks don't understand. You kind of mentioned how we can give
01:56:56 --> 01:57:00 military families housing when they're serving, but not when they get out.
01:57:01 --> 01:57:05 I think a lot of folks don't know, like food insecurity has actually been measured
01:57:05 --> 01:57:09 at 25%. among the active duty force.
01:57:10 --> 01:57:14 I mean, think about that. A quarter, I think it's almost a quarter of the force
01:57:14 --> 01:57:17 is food insecure at some level.
01:57:18 --> 01:57:23 And, you know, how do we let that happen in the richest country in the world?
01:57:24 --> 01:57:30 And so there is a lot of, you know, lower ranking folks are not making a lot of money.
01:57:30 --> 01:57:34 And sometimes we send them to really high cost of area or high cost of living
01:57:34 --> 01:57:38 areas like San Diego, Washington, D.C.
01:57:38 --> 01:57:41 And they get, you know, they get they get some support.
01:57:41 --> 01:57:46 But if you have a bunch of kids, if you have a spouse who isn't working because
01:57:46 --> 01:57:50 maybe they're waiting on that license to transfer from the last jurisdiction,
01:57:50 --> 01:57:55 it can be a really challenging economic existence.
01:57:55 --> 01:57:58 You don't have a network in the new place that you just landed.
01:57:59 --> 01:58:01 You don't know anybody to ask for a job.
01:58:01 --> 01:58:06 And so little things, things that seem little, like this advocacy that we did
01:58:06 --> 01:58:12 through MSJDN, I think actually have a really big impact on military families.
01:58:12 --> 01:58:16 And now a lot of states have done it for many professions beyond lawyers,
01:58:17 --> 01:58:20 which is a really exciting thing to see. Yeah.
01:58:21 --> 01:58:27 So your work with the Biden administration led to some benefits for military spouses.
01:58:27 --> 01:58:32 Do you have any inroads into the current administration? And if you do,
01:58:32 --> 01:58:34 what are you working with them on?
01:58:35 --> 01:58:39 Yeah, the current administration and I don't really talk.
01:58:40 --> 01:58:46 So I think I'm probably on a list, but not the list of folks that they want to talk to.
01:58:47 --> 01:58:52 But I continue to advocate, like I mentioned a little bit earlier,
01:58:53 --> 01:58:58 really helping military families understand how to use their voices.
01:58:58 --> 01:59:02 I do feel fortunate that I was able to, you know, we're talking about all these
01:59:02 --> 01:59:04 challenges with building a career.
01:59:05 --> 01:59:08 I was super lucky. I was able to land at the VA.
01:59:08 --> 01:59:12 I spent a year on the Hill in a Senate office.
01:59:12 --> 01:59:18 I spent time at the White House on Dr. Biden's team, worked a lot with the agencies.
01:59:18 --> 01:59:22 And so I want to put that knowledge and experience to use to help,
01:59:22 --> 01:59:26 you know, military families understand when policies come up like this,
01:59:26 --> 01:59:28 like the occupational licensing,
01:59:29 --> 01:59:35 you know, those things that are an administrative barrier, how can you change those?
01:59:36 --> 01:59:39 And as we're seeing now, I think it even goes beyond that.
01:59:39 --> 01:59:44 A lot of it is speaking out on things like the immigration enforcement and where
01:59:44 --> 01:59:48 there used to be protections in place for veterans and military families.
01:59:48 --> 01:59:53 We're no longer seeing those protections extended to this community.
01:59:53 --> 01:59:57 I mean, they're coming onto base and taking military family members.
01:59:57 --> 02:00:00 They're deporting veterans who served honorably.
02:00:01 --> 02:00:06 And so it's really troubling. And I think veteran and military family voices
02:00:06 --> 02:00:11 are incredibly powerful in this moment to say we love our country.
02:00:12 --> 02:00:13 We care about democracy.
02:00:14 --> 02:00:19 We were willing to make these sacrifices and move every two or three years and
02:00:19 --> 02:00:23 be away from our families and all of this because we care about building the
02:00:23 --> 02:00:25 best version of America possible.
02:00:25 --> 02:00:30 And so, yeah, I'm really proud of the work that that we do to help folks speak
02:00:30 --> 02:00:33 up on that. And that's interesting.
02:00:33 --> 02:00:42 So I know if you stay off base, you could be vulnerable for ICE or Border Patrol to show up at your house.
02:00:43 --> 02:00:49 You know, try to serve or detain you for immigration violations.
02:00:50 --> 02:00:53 But they can come on a military base and do that?
02:00:54 --> 02:00:57 Oh, I mean, it's all federal and they're working together.
02:00:58 --> 02:01:02 We saw a story, I think it was last year, where a spouse,
02:01:02 --> 02:01:08 they were moving to a new base and it got flagged in the process of getting
02:01:08 --> 02:01:12 the spouse access to that base where their housing was,
02:01:12 --> 02:01:15 that she wasn't here legally and
02:01:15 --> 02:01:18 so you know whoever it was at the base
02:01:18 --> 02:01:21 I guess flagged that to DHS and they detained her
02:01:21 --> 02:01:24 and there was a another story
02:01:24 --> 02:01:30 where a family I think it was Arizona had a mom one of the moms came to help
02:01:30 --> 02:01:36 because the spouse had just had surgery and it turned out again the mom you
02:01:36 --> 02:01:42 know didn't have all the right paperwork and and they came and detained her from the base.
02:01:42 --> 02:01:46 So, yeah, it's really troubling. I mean, we saw stories, again, beyond this community.
02:01:46 --> 02:01:53 They're looking at IRS data to try to track folks down, which I think is kind
02:01:53 --> 02:01:58 of ironic when, if you're looking at the IRS, their folks are clearly reporting their income.
02:01:59 --> 02:02:06 You know, and that's not how it was framed that they would be enforcing things.
02:02:06 --> 02:02:09 So, yeah, I think it's incredibly troubling there is no
02:02:09 --> 02:02:12 uh essentially there's no safe
02:02:12 --> 02:02:19 haven on a on a military base now yeah and this is just my brain going there
02:02:19 --> 02:02:24 but it just seemed like to me that would be a national security issue because
02:02:24 --> 02:02:29 it's like all right so i'm enlisted and i'm supposed to be fighting for a nation
02:02:29 --> 02:02:31 and that very nation takes away my spouse.
02:02:32 --> 02:02:37 Yeah, it's like if I'm a terrorist organization, I'm like, flag that guy, right? Flag that girl.
02:02:38 --> 02:02:41 You know what I'm saying? We can recruit them. You understand what I'm saying?
02:02:41 --> 02:02:47 I mean, it's just practical stuff, but that's going to lead us down to a whole
02:02:47 --> 02:02:50 different rabbit hole. So I don't want to do that.
02:02:50 --> 02:02:56 Well, if I can say quickly, too, I think it's a recruiting and retention issue, too.
02:02:57 --> 02:03:00 Right. So it's a national security risk in the way that you're saying it.
02:03:00 --> 02:03:03 But also, how do we continue recruiting?
02:03:04 --> 02:03:07 Recruiters have often used that saying, hey, come serve in the military.
02:03:07 --> 02:03:11 It can be a pathway to citizenship for you. But when folks see like,
02:03:11 --> 02:03:12 well, actually, no, it's not.
02:03:13 --> 02:03:17 They're snapping people up, you know, and maybe we can have a conversation about
02:03:17 --> 02:03:20 that's not what we should be using to recruit people anyway.
02:03:20 --> 02:03:26 It's kind of messed up that that's how we're, you know, luring people in.
02:03:26 --> 02:03:34 But yeah, I think there's huge ramifications for national security all around this. Yeah.
02:03:34 --> 02:03:40 Talk about the work with mission license. I assume that's a variation of what
02:03:40 --> 02:03:45 you do with the JD network and incorporates other professions.
02:03:45 --> 02:03:52 So I guess kind of list the different professions that may be impacted.
02:03:52 --> 02:03:58 I know medical would be one, but just kind of go over where people have a license.
02:03:59 --> 02:04:05 And, you know, that they may run into problems getting certified somewhere.
02:04:06 --> 02:04:09 Sure. Yeah, I'll say mission license is defunct now.
02:04:09 --> 02:04:14 My partner in crime went back into the government. But I do have a consulting,
02:04:14 --> 02:04:18 solo consulting biz where I do all the same work.
02:04:19 --> 02:04:20 But yeah, it's very widespread.
02:04:20 --> 02:04:23 It's so many things. folks who do hair
02:04:23 --> 02:04:27 in a lot of states even someone who blow just blow
02:04:27 --> 02:04:30 dries hair doesn't even cut or color they have
02:04:30 --> 02:04:34 to have a license as some jurisdictions florists
02:04:34 --> 02:04:37 if you're selling flowers you have to be you have
02:04:37 --> 02:04:44 to have a license um obviously you know like medical legal tree cutting you
02:04:44 --> 02:04:50 know manicurists and pedicurists it gets a wide wide range we see a lot of commercial
02:04:50 --> 02:04:54 licensing around truck drivers and that kind of thing.
02:04:54 --> 02:05:03 So I really didn't know much about it before I got involved with MSJDN and really
02:05:03 --> 02:05:06 felt the impact on, you know, personally.
02:05:07 --> 02:05:15 But then to dive in and see how broad this is and how much it impacts folks, it's such a wide range.
02:05:15 --> 02:05:20 And when you think about maybe you are successfully set up, you know,
02:05:20 --> 02:05:24 as a CPA or whatever it might be that requires that license.
02:05:24 --> 02:05:26 And it really is state specific.
02:05:27 --> 02:05:31 It depends state to state because they have the jurisdiction to do that.
02:05:31 --> 02:05:35 But then your parents get sick or you have to go back home for some reason.
02:05:35 --> 02:05:40 Well, how do you take your career with you? Sometimes it can be thousands of
02:05:40 --> 02:05:44 dollars and a year long process to navigate that. And so that's where the.
02:05:45 --> 02:05:49 You know, Mission License originally came in to say, hey, let us take our expertise.
02:05:49 --> 02:05:54 We've been there, done that ourselves so many times as military families.
02:05:54 --> 02:05:56 Let us help you navigate that as well.
02:05:57 --> 02:06:03 Is there anybody in Congress that's trying to address that issue to,
02:06:04 --> 02:06:08 you know, instead of an executive order, just make that the law of the land
02:06:08 --> 02:06:12 to kind of have some reciprocity for people, professional folks?
02:06:12 --> 02:06:17 Right. They did, actually. President Biden signed, I think it was 2023.
02:06:19 --> 02:06:25 Signed a law amending an existing law that dealt with service members,
02:06:25 --> 02:06:29 saying that for service members and their families,
02:06:29 --> 02:06:36 all of the states now have to offer some kind of recognition to be able to transfer
02:06:36 --> 02:06:39 a license, which I think is great.
02:06:39 --> 02:06:45 It is challenging because, again, it's a state issue, so it's hard for the federal government.
02:06:45 --> 02:06:49 Again, if we want to stick within the rule of law, you know,
02:06:50 --> 02:06:55 the federal government has limited ability to come in and tell the states what to do like that.
02:06:55 --> 02:06:59 But they could for service members and their families saying,
02:07:00 --> 02:07:05 you know, this is related to the national defense and those interests.
02:07:05 --> 02:07:10 I think some of the problem is, even though it says, yes, the state should be
02:07:10 --> 02:07:13 doing it, how they implement it is still another problem.
02:07:13 --> 02:07:17 And kind of what we were, you know, what I was just talking about is maybe the
02:07:17 --> 02:07:23 state offers reciprocity, but it's still really expensive and it takes a really long time.
02:07:23 --> 02:07:27 And again, especially for families who might be moving again in two or three
02:07:27 --> 02:07:29 years, if it takes a year to get that license.
02:07:31 --> 02:07:36 Not really that helpful. So the implementation is really important.
02:07:36 --> 02:07:40 And I would say that for anyone trying to pick up their life and move,
02:07:40 --> 02:07:44 you know, a year is a long time to wait to get something like that processed.
02:07:45 --> 02:07:51 Yeah. What do you want the average listener to understand about being a military spouse?
02:07:52 --> 02:08:02 I think so much of what folks don't understand is that daily the daily stressors
02:08:02 --> 02:08:03 that we're talking about.
02:08:03 --> 02:08:07 You know, military families are American working families.
02:08:08 --> 02:08:12 They're dealing with so much of the same thing that everyone else is.
02:08:12 --> 02:08:18 You know, high cost of living, obviously, you know, all the stress and scariness
02:08:18 --> 02:08:24 about what's happening in Iran, in Venezuela, you know, there's so much uncertainty.
02:08:25 --> 02:08:29 And I think, you know, understanding,
02:08:30 --> 02:08:35 that families don't always have a say in it, as much as we try to get folks
02:08:35 --> 02:08:42 to speak up, you know, and really push back on some of these harmful policies and practices.
02:08:42 --> 02:08:46 You know, for minority families who are told,
02:08:46 --> 02:08:52 hey, you need to go live in this state that maybe doesn't have the best history
02:08:52 --> 02:09:01 or, you know, doesn't have the best education system or is now openly hostile to LGBTQ kids, I mean,
02:09:01 --> 02:09:06 you know, and you don't have a choice, but to go and live there or to live separately
02:09:06 --> 02:09:08 from your service member while they finish their service,
02:09:09 --> 02:09:14 you know, just understanding the realities of this life when you're interacting
02:09:14 --> 02:09:18 with a military family, I think is really helpful.
02:09:19 --> 02:09:23 Okay. Finish this sentence. I have hope because...
02:09:25 --> 02:09:28 Oh, it's a tough, tough, tough sentence this week.
02:09:29 --> 02:09:37 But I do have hope. I think a lot about when we get the opportunity to rebuild the federal workforce.
02:09:38 --> 02:09:43 I am a believer in the ability of the government to do good when we have good
02:09:43 --> 02:09:47 people, good leaders, and the right funding.
02:09:47 --> 02:09:53 And so I, you know, in these unprecedented times,
02:09:53 --> 02:09:59 I think a lot about how we push forward and, you know, stay sharp and ready
02:09:59 --> 02:10:06 to rebuild and rebuild an America that works for us, for everybody.
02:10:07 --> 02:10:13 Yeah. Well, Elizabeth Jamison, I greatly, again, I greatly appreciate you coming on.
02:10:14 --> 02:10:21 Is there a way where people can get involved with MSJDN or reach out to you
02:10:21 --> 02:10:24 to get you to talk about some of these issues we kind of touched on?
02:10:25 --> 02:10:31 Absolutely. So folks can find wealth of information at the MSJDN website.
02:10:32 --> 02:10:39 It's msjdn.org. And there's a ton of information on licensing.
02:10:39 --> 02:10:43 There's a really great map where you can see all the progress that has been
02:10:43 --> 02:10:45 made over the past decade or so.
02:10:45 --> 02:10:50 And then I'm on LinkedIn. Folks can find me there, shoot me a message.
02:10:50 --> 02:10:52 I'm always happy to connect.
02:10:53 --> 02:10:59 Well, I know your friends call you Libby, and I've been trying to be more formal about that.
02:10:59 --> 02:11:03 But I thank you for coming on.
02:11:04 --> 02:11:09 And just as a rule, once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.
02:11:09 --> 02:11:12 So you don't even have to wait for me to ask you if there's something pressing,
02:11:13 --> 02:11:15 which just scratching the surface with you.
02:11:15 --> 02:11:22 There's a lot of issues that, you know, like we didn't get into the detail about
02:11:22 --> 02:11:24 the LGBTQ community and all that stuff.
02:11:24 --> 02:11:31 So I would love for you to come back and talk about some more things that,
02:11:31 --> 02:11:39 you know, deal with the experience that you advocate for as far as military families and so forth.
02:11:40 --> 02:11:45 But I do want to not only thank you for coming on, but I want to thank you for what you're doing.
02:11:46 --> 02:11:51 I think your advocacy is as important, if not more important,
02:11:52 --> 02:11:59 than the actual military service, because in order for that man or that woman
02:11:59 --> 02:12:04 to fully focus on that job, they've got to have some kind of reassurance.
02:12:04 --> 02:12:06 They've got to have some kind of support.
02:12:06 --> 02:12:08 And for a lot of them, that's their family.
02:12:09 --> 02:12:14 And to have somebody that's out there fighting for the military families,
02:12:14 --> 02:12:18 I think that's an incredible, incredible service to this nation.
02:12:18 --> 02:12:24 So I just thank you for doing that and taking the time out today to talk to
02:12:24 --> 02:12:26 us. Well, I appreciate that.
02:12:27 --> 02:12:32 And I appreciate the opportunity to really, you know, to elevate these issues
02:12:32 --> 02:12:38 and appreciate that you asked about, you know, what can folks know about this community?
02:12:38 --> 02:12:42 Because I do think there are so many myths and misconceptions.
02:12:42 --> 02:12:47 So, like I said, it's been a tough week for this community, but I appreciate
02:12:47 --> 02:12:50 the opportunity to come on and lift it up.
02:12:51 --> 02:12:53 Okay. All right, guys, we're going to catch all.
02:13:05 --> 02:13:13 All right, we're back, and I want to thank Kaivan Shroff, Louise Story,
02:13:13 --> 02:13:18 Ebony Reed, and Elizabeth Jamison for coming on the program.
02:13:19 --> 02:13:23 Kaivan, sharp as ever, honest as ever.
02:13:24 --> 02:13:33 You know, in between the time we've interviewed, he has risen as a voice that people want to hear.
02:13:33 --> 02:13:38 From the Democratic side about, you know, campaigns and strategies,
02:13:38 --> 02:13:43 party platforms, whatever, and just really the pulse of people of his generation.
02:13:43 --> 02:13:51 And look forward to continuing to hear good things about him and the work that
02:13:51 --> 02:13:53 he's doing to help Democrats get elected.
02:13:54 --> 02:14:00 For Louise Story and Ebony Reed, it was an honor to actually meet them.
02:14:02 --> 02:14:07 In person before interviewing them. Of course, we didn't have a whole lot of
02:14:07 --> 02:14:11 time because they were signing books and getting ready to have this big presentation,
02:14:12 --> 02:14:15 based off of their book, 15 cents on a dollar.
02:14:16 --> 02:14:21 And ever since I first heard about the book, I've been a big fan.
02:14:21 --> 02:14:27 And to actually be able to carve out some time from their busy schedules to
02:14:27 --> 02:14:31 sit down and talk to them was really, really an honor and a treat for me.
02:14:32 --> 02:14:37 And I thank them for doing that. And I thank them for putting in the work and
02:14:37 --> 02:14:39 continuing to put in the work.
02:14:41 --> 02:14:50 To raise awareness about the disparities in wealth, especially the racial wealth gap.
02:14:51 --> 02:14:58 If America's going to succeed, we got to stop the divisions.
02:14:59 --> 02:15:09 And, you know, the wealth gap is a division that really shouldn't exist in a country such as this.
02:15:09 --> 02:15:15 So I thank them for that. And then Elizabeth Jamison, her work dealing with
02:15:15 --> 02:15:20 military spouses and families and veterans themselves.
02:15:20 --> 02:15:27 I always try to get somebody on the podcast that addresses those issues.
02:15:28 --> 02:15:32 I think she's the first one that's really focused in on the family.
02:15:33 --> 02:15:38 You know, we've talked about veterans as a whole, but not the family,
02:15:38 --> 02:15:39 especially the spouses.
02:15:41 --> 02:15:46 People need to understand that when folks make that commitment to serve,
02:15:47 --> 02:15:52 right, But they're bringing other people into that service, whether it's their
02:15:52 --> 02:15:55 parents, their spouses, their children.
02:15:56 --> 02:16:02 Everybody's tied in. Everybody's connected. And I'm really, really honored to
02:16:02 --> 02:16:10 have somebody like her come on the podcast and talk about that side, the support side.
02:16:10 --> 02:16:16 Because no matter what we do in life, we've got to have a support system.
02:16:17 --> 02:16:23 Somebody has to be in your corner, right? It's hard being out here alone.
02:16:24 --> 02:16:29 And, you know, but, you know, you just can't have anybody, right?
02:16:31 --> 02:16:36 We've learned that lesson. You know, sometimes eagles got to fly.
02:16:36 --> 02:16:38 Well, eagles always fly solo.
02:16:38 --> 02:16:42 But, you know, sometimes you got to do things on your own, but...
02:16:44 --> 02:16:49 It's a luxury and a benefit to have a support system.
02:16:49 --> 02:16:53 And so I'm glad that Elizabeth was able to come on and talk about that.
02:16:55 --> 02:16:58 All right. So real quick, I just want to talk about the week that was,
02:16:58 --> 02:17:01 and I want to highlight two people to,
02:17:02 --> 02:17:06 you know, kind of symbolized, I mean, they were the stars of the week.
02:17:07 --> 02:17:09 Well, some of the stars anyway.
02:17:10 --> 02:17:13 But, you know, the week started off pretty hopeful.
02:17:15 --> 02:17:17 And then election day came in Texas.
02:17:19 --> 02:17:26 And U.S. Congresswoman Jasmine Clark, I mean, Crockett, Jasmine Crockett did
02:17:26 --> 02:17:29 not win the Democratic nomination.
02:17:30 --> 02:17:36 And as a black elected official who ran for the United States Senate,
02:17:36 --> 02:17:38 I know what it feels like.
02:17:38 --> 02:17:44 You know, you do everything you possibly can do.
02:17:44 --> 02:17:48 You do the interviews, you do the speeches, you do the rallies,
02:17:49 --> 02:17:54 you shake the hands, you crank out the literature, you attend the meetings.
02:17:56 --> 02:18:00 You do all the politics you can't do, the TV commercial, all that stuff.
02:18:00 --> 02:18:05 You do everything you can afford to do, everything physically you can do.
02:18:07 --> 02:18:10 And to not achieve that goal, that hurts.
02:18:11 --> 02:18:17 And I know that she, you know, put everything she had into it.
02:18:17 --> 02:18:25 And you could tell as the hours were getting late and then all the shenanigans
02:18:25 --> 02:18:29 that was happening in her home county, right?
02:18:31 --> 02:18:34 They were, the Republicans were afraid of her.
02:18:35 --> 02:18:40 They think they can handle Tallarico. Now, they might be wrong,
02:18:40 --> 02:18:43 but they were afraid of her.
02:18:43 --> 02:18:49 And to go as far as say, well, everywhere else in the state,
02:18:50 --> 02:18:58 people could go to, like, the early voting. They could go to a designated spot.
02:18:59 --> 02:19:03 And vote. They didn't have to go to their precinct, right?
02:19:04 --> 02:19:10 They could just go to any designated spot in their county and vote.
02:19:11 --> 02:19:16 Only two counties out of 200 and something counties in Texas decided,
02:19:16 --> 02:19:19 well, we're not going to do what we've been doing for the last 10 years.
02:19:21 --> 02:19:27 One was Williamson County, and one was Dallas County.
02:19:28 --> 02:19:34 And Dallas County was a big county. That's where the city of Dallas is.
02:19:35 --> 02:19:37 But more importantly, that's where Jasmine Crockett represents.
02:19:39 --> 02:19:45 And to basically freeze out voters, you know, and then, of course,
02:19:45 --> 02:19:49 Ken Paxson, he's running for the U.S.
02:19:49 --> 02:19:54 Senate on the Republican side, but then he's meddling in the Democratic primary
02:19:54 --> 02:20:00 because once the courts had extended the voting hours in Dallas County because of the confusion,
02:20:01 --> 02:20:06 Paxson used his position as attorney general to go to the Supreme Court in Texas
02:20:06 --> 02:20:12 and get that judge's ruling overturned and those ballots frozen.
02:20:12 --> 02:20:21 Now, of the people that voted, you know, obviously it couldn't make up the difference
02:20:21 --> 02:20:23 what Tallarico had gathered statewide.
02:20:23 --> 02:20:29 But how many people didn't vote at all because of the confusion?
02:20:30 --> 02:20:34 And would that have made the difference for Jasmine?
02:20:36 --> 02:20:44 So that's a tough way to lose. And knowing, and there was nothing you could do about it.
02:20:45 --> 02:20:49 You filed a lawsuit, you did what you could do, you got the ruling you wanted,
02:20:49 --> 02:20:51 and then you get it overturned.
02:20:52 --> 02:20:59 And this was all within one day, election day, in the midst of all of the voting,
02:20:59 --> 02:21:02 last-minute cheerleading, and all that stuff.
02:21:03 --> 02:21:11 So I know it hurt, but it's politics. It's a 50-50 proposition when you walk in.
02:21:12 --> 02:21:16 Jasmine was professional enough to understand that,
02:21:16 --> 02:21:23 and like the next morning, she was calling James Tallarico and congratulating
02:21:23 --> 02:21:28 him and on a plane to D.C. to go to work.
02:21:30 --> 02:21:37 And then she gets to work and she's got to attend a hearing and she's got to
02:21:37 --> 02:21:42 interrogate Kristi Noem, who had a very interesting week herself.
02:21:43 --> 02:21:47 And it was because of her and her colleagues,
02:21:48 --> 02:21:52 Democrat and Republican, the way that they grilled Kristi Noem,
02:21:53 --> 02:21:58 Donald Trump finally had to get a scalp.
02:21:58 --> 02:22:04 So in the first administration, President Trump was firing people left and right
02:22:04 --> 02:22:10 once he got started, because there were a lot of people that were there telling him no first time.
02:22:11 --> 02:22:14 So he was getting rid of those people.
02:22:16 --> 02:22:21 But this time around, a lot of people felt he wouldn't do that because he was
02:22:21 --> 02:22:22 getting all his yes people in.
02:22:25 --> 02:22:33 But when you start finding out about extramarital affairs and spending money
02:22:33 --> 02:22:38 on commercials that look like you're running for president instead of,
02:22:38 --> 02:22:41 you know, you just being the secretary of Homeland Security,
02:22:42 --> 02:22:44 you know, hooking up your.
02:22:45 --> 02:22:52 Here's the crazy thing, right? You hook up your brother-in-law with 140 some million dollars.
02:22:52 --> 02:22:55 And then you cheat on your husband.
02:22:56 --> 02:22:57 How crazy is that?
02:23:00 --> 02:23:08 I haven't heard anybody on any of the news stations or wherever just make that correlation.
02:23:09 --> 02:23:13 You cheat on your husband, but then you give your brother-in-law $140 million.
02:23:19 --> 02:23:25 You know, in a normal world, she would have to go, right? It should have been a surprise.
02:23:26 --> 02:23:28 It's been like, oh, yeah, you got to go.
02:23:29 --> 02:23:34 And, you know, President Trump agreed. Now, he gave her some gig,
02:23:34 --> 02:23:41 Special Envoy to the Shield of the Americas, which I think is only happening this week.
02:23:42 --> 02:23:46 So, you know, it is what it is.
02:23:46 --> 02:23:51 But she's not the Homeland Security director anymore. And we haven't even got
02:23:51 --> 02:23:56 into the FEMA mismanagement. We haven't even gotten to the deaths of Renee Good
02:23:56 --> 02:24:00 and Alex Preddy through ICE and Border Patrol.
02:24:02 --> 02:24:08 But those seem to be the two things that took it over the edge to say, yeah, we got to cut that.
02:24:09 --> 02:24:15 And then, you know, now we're going to have another Pam Bondi hearing.
02:24:16 --> 02:24:19 This time is with the Oversight Committee instead of the Judiciary.
02:24:19 --> 02:24:21 So we'll see how that goes.
02:24:22 --> 02:24:27 And Jasmine Crockett will be I think at that hearing as well.
02:24:29 --> 02:24:36 We'll see if Pam survives her hearing now that it's known that people are going
02:24:36 --> 02:24:40 to lose jobs in this midterm election year.
02:24:40 --> 02:24:44 So I was kind of happy about that.
02:24:45 --> 02:24:52 That, you know, whatever his motivation was, the public perception is there's accountability.
02:24:53 --> 02:24:59 And there's hope that it's like, okay, you know, now the guy that's supposed
02:24:59 --> 02:25:06 to be replacing Christie Dome, I mean, his name is Mark Wayne Mullet, is what it is, man.
02:25:07 --> 02:25:10 I mean, you know, this is the guy that wanted to fight the president of the
02:25:10 --> 02:25:14 Teamsters in the Capitol building at a hearing.
02:25:15 --> 02:25:22 Gets in front of the secretary of education, and I don't know if his staff person did that deliberately,
02:25:23 --> 02:25:27 or that's just the way he talked, but it sounded like he didn't have a command
02:25:27 --> 02:25:30 of the English language talking to the Secretary of Education.
02:25:34 --> 02:25:38 He's fought in the ring, but I don't know if he's, I don't know.
02:25:38 --> 02:25:43 I've never really tried to understand his background because to me he's just
02:25:43 --> 02:25:50 another one of these guys that drank the Kool-Aid and convinced people to send
02:25:50 --> 02:25:51 him to the United States Senate.
02:25:51 --> 02:25:56 And I guess that's the other pain I have with Jasmine Crockett.
02:25:57 --> 02:26:04 It's like, you know, this guy can get in the United States Senate, but she can't, right?
02:26:05 --> 02:26:08 Mullen's from Oklahoma, and she's from Texas. And it's like,
02:26:08 --> 02:26:11 well, those are two different states, Eric. Yeah, same mindset,
02:26:11 --> 02:26:13 same region of the country.
02:26:14 --> 02:26:19 You can argue that Texas is, somebody said they were four states in one as far
02:26:19 --> 02:26:22 as like, you know, makeup and all that kind of stuff.
02:26:24 --> 02:26:29 But, again, it just kind of hurts, again, for that.
02:26:29 --> 02:26:35 But you just look at those people. I know I do.
02:26:37 --> 02:26:42 And the way that things turned out, I probably would have been gone by the time
02:26:42 --> 02:26:49 all these people got in, either on my own volition or on the voters if I had won.
02:26:49 --> 02:26:54 But, you know, because I figured if I had got one term in the Senate in Mississippi,
02:26:55 --> 02:26:58 then I'd be playing with fire to run for re-election.
02:26:58 --> 02:27:02 But, you know, we've done it till, let's see, 2008.
02:27:04 --> 02:27:10 Yeah, I've been gone. 12 years from that, I've been 2020, I've been through with that.
02:27:13 --> 02:27:19 I would have been there during Biden's, well, no, during Trump's first administration.
02:27:20 --> 02:27:25 So anyway, I mean, it's just, you know, if I had pulled that off.
02:27:27 --> 02:27:32 But this is not about my pain. It's about, well, it kind of is.
02:27:33 --> 02:27:37 But, you know, I just understand, right?
02:27:37 --> 02:27:43 And even with Chrissy Noem being fired, still doesn't bring back Renee Goods,
02:27:43 --> 02:27:50 still doesn't bring back Alex Pretty, but at least it's like that was some form of justice.
02:27:51 --> 02:27:58 And now we're going to see how smooth Mullen's confirmation will be, right?
02:28:00 --> 02:28:04 And I guess it's better if he's going to make the changes, it's better for the
02:28:04 --> 02:28:08 president to do it now than try to see how these midterms are going to go.
02:28:08 --> 02:28:11 Because right now it's looking like it's a wrap.
02:28:11 --> 02:28:18 Even here in Georgia, it looks like Sean Harris, the lone credible Democrat
02:28:18 --> 02:28:23 running in Marjorie Taylor Greene's district 14, I believe, Georgia 14.
02:28:25 --> 02:28:31 I think he's going to serve in Congress. And, you know, even if it's just a
02:28:31 --> 02:28:34 special election, I think he's going to get his chance.
02:28:35 --> 02:28:40 And, you know, it just seems like it's just going to be a huge deal.
02:28:41 --> 02:28:46 And I respect Kaivon and what he's saying, and he's being cautiously optimistic.
02:28:47 --> 02:28:53 I'm not. I think this is going to be a big deal.
02:28:53 --> 02:28:58 Well, now the two things that's going to happen that we have to watch out for
02:28:58 --> 02:29:05 is when the Democrats take over the House, will Akeem Jeffries be the speaker?
02:29:05 --> 02:29:11 When he first got elected minority leader, it looked like that was a lock.
02:29:12 --> 02:29:20 Now, I'm not so sure about that. And it's really going to depend on the Democrats that get elected.
02:29:20 --> 02:29:30 Because, you know, I don't think the new crop of Democrats are feeling Mr. Jeffries.
02:29:30 --> 02:29:33 Which would be a shame, because we could have had a black speaker.
02:29:34 --> 02:29:37 But sometimes we mess our own things up.
02:29:38 --> 02:29:41 And again from my experience of being an elected official,
02:29:42 --> 02:29:49 and not being as mature as I should have you know I think you know you want
02:29:49 --> 02:29:53 to take some things back or you wish you could have done something else better
02:29:53 --> 02:29:54 or whatever the case may be but.
02:29:56 --> 02:30:02 Yeah, the way he's handled that leadership position and, you know,
02:30:03 --> 02:30:07 the dynamics should have been a coordination.
02:30:07 --> 02:30:11 Now it's going to be a fight. So that's the first thing we're going to watch.
02:30:11 --> 02:30:20 And then the other thing is how they handle the oversight of Trump's remaining two years in office.
02:30:21 --> 02:30:25 They're going to pass a lot of bills that he vetoes.
02:30:26 --> 02:30:30 Are they going to try to impeach everybody? Are they just going to try to impeach him?
02:30:31 --> 02:30:35 You know, they're going for blood once they get in there.
02:30:36 --> 02:30:42 But how they handle it, right? And especially, it's going to be based on how the Senate goes.
02:30:42 --> 02:30:46 Because if they get control of the Senate, yeah, they're going for blood.
02:30:46 --> 02:30:51 But if they don't get control of the Senate, then it's going to be interesting
02:30:51 --> 02:30:55 to see how they act as an opposition party.
02:30:56 --> 02:31:03 So I'm just going to watch all this stuff. But, you know, this week is indicative
02:31:03 --> 02:31:06 of the highs and lows of politics.
02:31:07 --> 02:31:10 And it depends on what side of the aisle you're on.
02:31:11 --> 02:31:14 This was either a pretty good week for you or a pretty bad week for you or kind
02:31:14 --> 02:31:17 of a little bit of both. Right.
02:31:17 --> 02:31:21 But that's just the nature of of politics.
02:31:22 --> 02:31:26 So another thing I always you know, I want to hear y'all's thoughts.
02:31:26 --> 02:31:33 I don't do like call in because this is recorded, but we do have the website
02:31:33 --> 02:31:37 and you can leave comments there, reviews, whatever.
02:31:37 --> 02:31:41 But you can respond to what I'm saying. OK.
02:31:42 --> 02:31:45 If you agree with it, cool. If you don't agree with it, cool.
02:31:47 --> 02:31:51 But if you want to respond, you can. I welcome it.
02:31:52 --> 02:31:57 But in the meantime, I'm just going to keep plodding along and doing what I
02:31:57 --> 02:32:01 need to do and just give you my thoughts about what's happening and hopefully
02:32:01 --> 02:32:08 educate you on some things and expose you to some people that are really doing the work.
02:32:09 --> 02:32:16 But I pray that And based off of what I saw this week,
02:32:16 --> 02:32:23 that I pray that you understand that this thing can work, no matter how crazy
02:32:23 --> 02:32:26 it sounds, no matter how dire it may feel.
02:32:27 --> 02:32:32 This can work. We just got to get the right people in.
02:32:32 --> 02:32:42 And I pray that because James Tallarico is a man of faith and he's very, very open with that.
02:32:42 --> 02:32:46 That that might be a sign. No matter how I felt about Jasmine losing,
02:32:47 --> 02:32:52 maybe that's a sign that things are going to be all right. We'll see.
02:32:54 --> 02:32:59 But I just want y'all to understand this thing is going to work.
02:33:00 --> 02:33:04 And the cool thing is we can make it work.
02:33:04 --> 02:33:08 You, the average voter, can make this work.
02:33:10 --> 02:33:15 So let's continue to do what we need to do stay focused on what the mission
02:33:15 --> 02:33:24 is and we'll make it we'll make it alright that's all I got thank y'all for listening until next.