Host Erik Fleming speaks with four guests about urgent public issues: Jerren Chang on building civic infrastructure and "democracy renovation," Dr. Bhumika Muchhala on decolonial feminist political economy, climate justice, and sovereign debt, and Mason Donovan & Mark Kaplan on workplace policies and their new book The Parenthood Advantage.
The episode explores practical reforms—from civic education and media to fiscal justice and paid parental leave—highlighting ideas to strengthen democratic participation, global economic equity, and family-friendly workplaces.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:02:00 --> 00:02:06 Hello, and welcome to Another Moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:13 So today, this episode was recorded as we were going into the holiday,
00:02:13 --> 00:02:20 so there's going to be one omission, and that'll be we won't have a news summary with Grace G,
00:02:21 --> 00:02:26 and hope that she enjoyed her holiday weekend.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:34 And, you know, and I tried to substitute a couple of times and yeah, I'm not doing that.
00:02:35 --> 00:02:41 That's not, it's been a long time since I was doing news recaps and all that
00:02:41 --> 00:02:45 in my life. And it was strictly sports when I was doing it then.
00:02:45 --> 00:02:48 So we just going to take that week off.
00:02:49 --> 00:02:53 We just took this week off and Grace will be back with us next episode.
00:02:54 --> 00:02:58 And as far as the changes that I was talking about in-house that we're doing,
00:02:58 --> 00:02:59 things are going smoothly.
00:03:00 --> 00:03:07 So it won't be, well, you won't have the torture of just dealing with me talking,
00:03:08 --> 00:03:12 and not having any guests over the remainder of this year.
00:03:13 --> 00:03:17 We're getting ready to start season 14 anyway. So it just, you know,
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 things work out in the balance of the universe.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:25 And so, you know, it's all good. It's all gravy. You're still going to have
00:03:25 --> 00:03:27 some good guests coming on.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:32 It may not be as many, which for some of y'all that might be good.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:37 Because, you know, you might be able to listen to a whole episode in just one
00:03:37 --> 00:03:42 commute instead of having to break off parts or just find a person that you want to listen to.
00:03:43 --> 00:03:48 But I do hope that y'all are listening to the podcast as a whole because all
00:03:48 --> 00:03:52 of these guests that I've been very privileged to have are very, very special people.
00:03:53 --> 00:03:57 And the guests that we're going to have on this episode are very special.
00:03:57 --> 00:03:59 We're going to start off with Jerren Chang.
00:04:00 --> 00:04:05 He is the president of Partners in Democracy. So he's going to be talking about
00:04:05 --> 00:04:07 his work and how he got involved.
00:04:07 --> 00:04:13 We're going to be talking to Bumika Muchhala, who is probably one of the,
00:04:14 --> 00:04:17 you know, all of everybody, every guest that's on is smarter than me.
00:04:18 --> 00:04:27 But she is so in tune as an economist and really as an activist as well in the
00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 academic arena for sure.
00:04:29 --> 00:04:36 And so she's going to be talking about some of her theories as far as from a
00:04:36 --> 00:04:38 feminist economist perspective.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 And dealing with how we address capitalism, right? Yeah.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:51 You know, how we get out of this negative culture that capitalism has brought.
00:04:51 --> 00:04:58 And then I have two gentlemen who are actually partners, and not just partners
00:04:58 --> 00:05:03 in business, but partners in life, Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:06 And they're going to be talking about probably their most.
00:05:08 --> 00:05:13 Engaging venture, definitely most satisfying venture, and that's parenthood.
00:05:13 --> 00:05:19 So they have used their expertise to write a book to help employers deal with
00:05:19 --> 00:05:24 employees that, you know, are becoming parents. And so their book is called
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 The Parenthood Advantage.
00:05:26 --> 00:05:31 And so we'll be talking to them about that. So instead of my normal,
00:05:32 --> 00:05:36 move, oh, by the way, I still want y'all to go to the website,
00:05:36 --> 00:05:44 www.momenterik.com and donate, subscribe, whatever your heart leads you to do.
00:05:45 --> 00:05:47 Check past episodes, the whole nine yards.
00:05:47 --> 00:05:52 But instead of the normal kickoff to grace, we're going to go right into the
00:05:52 --> 00:06:01 guests, you know, for this episode. So the first guest is Jerren Chang.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:07 Jerren is the inaugural full-time president and CEO of Partners in Democracy.
00:06:07 --> 00:06:11 He comes to PID as a dedicated democracy advocate
00:06:11 --> 00:06:14 and the co-founder and CEO of GenUnity,
00:06:15 --> 00:06:20 an innovative nonprofit supporting the civic learning and leadership development
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 of hundreds of grassroots residents in Massachusetts communities,
00:06:24 --> 00:06:27 and now a core pillar of PID's holistic,
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 democracy renovation strategy.
00:06:30 --> 00:06:35 Under his leadership, GenUnity has grown from a pilot program in 2020,
00:06:35 --> 00:06:40 to a statewide civic infrastructure that brings hundreds together each year
00:06:40 --> 00:06:45 across race, class, and age to learn from each other, build trust,
00:06:45 --> 00:06:47 and make a positive impact in their communities.
00:06:48 --> 00:06:52 Jerren also serves as a board member for Massachusetts Public Health Alliance,
00:06:53 --> 00:06:57 and Democracy House, as well as a contributing columnist for The Fulcrum.
00:06:58 --> 00:07:03 Jerren's journey to the pro-democracy movement was shaped by his time serving
00:07:03 --> 00:07:07 in the Chicago mayor's office as an economic development policy staffer
00:07:08 --> 00:07:13 and working as a consultant at McKinsey & Company advising public and social sector leaders.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:21 He holds an MPP and MBA from Harvard Kennedy School and Harvard Business School
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 and is a graduate of Duke University.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:29 So, ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to kick this off.
00:07:34 --> 00:07:38 With this guest. I'm sorry, I stumbled on that. Jerren Chang.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:55 All right. Jerren Chang, how you doing, sir? You doing good? I'm doing good,
00:07:55 --> 00:07:56 Erik. Thanks for having me on.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:02 Well, I kind of wish I had an audio podcast because you've got a cool T-shirt
00:08:02 --> 00:08:04 that just says democracy.
00:08:05 --> 00:08:09 I think that's a T-shirt we all should be wearing and kind of remind some folks.
00:08:10 --> 00:08:14 But I really appreciate you coming on to the podcast to talk about the work
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 that you're doing towards democracy.
00:08:17 --> 00:08:22 Jaren, what I like to do when I start my interviews, I do a couple of icebreaking
00:08:22 --> 00:08:26 exercises. You call it the moderator facilitator in me.
00:08:27 --> 00:08:31 But the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:08:32 --> 00:08:39 And the quote is, our nation needs a beacon to light the way for our democracy. Hmm.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:45 Well, I love the quote. You know, I think that at the heart of it,
00:08:45 --> 00:08:49 we're in this time right now where so many states are being asked to answer
00:08:49 --> 00:08:51 the question of what does democracy mean to you?
00:08:51 --> 00:08:54 I think a lot of people are being asked individually, what does democracy mean to you?
00:08:55 --> 00:08:58 And frankly, I think we're struggling to answer the question.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:02 I think a lot of states are struggling to answer that question. And.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:08 We need an example of leadership. We need something that can inspire people,
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 to imagine what the next chapter of our democracy can look like.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:19 And my hope is that the work that we're doing, whether in Massachusetts or across the country, can be,
00:09:19 --> 00:09:24 a beacon that lights the way for other states as they think about the different
00:09:24 --> 00:09:27 pieces that make a democracy healthy, whether that's civic education,
00:09:27 --> 00:09:31 whether that's bridge building work, whether that's the policy reform or the,
00:09:32 --> 00:09:37 new digital civic infrastructure that can create new connections between constituents
00:09:37 --> 00:09:39 and their elected leaders.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:46 And I think that at the end of the day, what we all want is a deep level of
00:09:46 --> 00:09:51 trust and responsiveness and effectiveness in how we make decisions together,
00:09:51 --> 00:09:55 and how our democratic government facilitates that. Yeah.
00:09:56 --> 00:09:59 All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:10:00 --> 00:10:07 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20? 18. All right.
00:10:08 --> 00:10:13 What's one thing we might all agree is important, no matter our differences?
00:10:14 --> 00:10:16 I think one of the biggest things is to be heard.
00:10:18 --> 00:10:21 If you've ever been in a conversation where someone wasn't a very good listener,
00:10:22 --> 00:10:25 I think everyone gets universally frustrated by that.
00:10:25 --> 00:10:30 And I think that the root of that is a deeply human need to be heard,
00:10:30 --> 00:10:32 to be seen, and for that to be reciprocated.
00:10:33 --> 00:10:38 And I happen to think that that's foundational to a healthy democracy.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:44 And I worry sometimes that that last piece, the reciprocal piece of that relationship
00:10:44 --> 00:10:47 to want to hear others is eroding.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:51 And I'm sure we'll spend some time talking about that, Eric. Yeah, yeah.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:59 All right. So you said, as an Asian American and a child of immigrants,
00:10:59 --> 00:11:04 I have wrestled with the tension between our country's stated values of equity
00:11:04 --> 00:11:09 and the reality of how our society treats people who are different.
00:11:10 --> 00:11:12 Treats people who are different differently.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:17 While working in Chicago city government, I got to peek behind the curtain of
00:11:17 --> 00:11:21 how decisions are made, but I also saw how we create barriers to people,
00:11:22 --> 00:11:25 especially young people from marginalized communities,
00:11:25 --> 00:11:28 to affect change, further cementing inequity.
00:11:29 --> 00:11:32 Since then, it has been my mission to change this.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:39 So initially i had a couple of questions off of that but the i want to add an
00:11:39 --> 00:11:47 additional one since now that the data we're recording this the supreme court has made a decision,
00:11:47 --> 00:11:53 to affirm birthright citizenship so what is your you know decision just came
00:11:53 --> 00:11:58 down so we haven't really it's like 194 pages so neither one of us had read this.
00:11:59 --> 00:12:06 But just on the initial reaction to the Supreme Court affirming birthright citizenship.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:07 How do you feel about that?
00:12:08 --> 00:12:13 Yeah, I think it's really exciting, really exciting to see that rule of law upheld.
00:12:14 --> 00:12:20 And for the kind of tradition, the cultural tradition of this country, which is really about
00:12:20 --> 00:12:25 a story of immigration and entrepreneurship, of people coming here and finding
00:12:25 --> 00:12:29 ways to build a better life and hopefully find ways to build a better life together.
00:12:31 --> 00:12:36 Such a core part of the American fabric. And I'm glad that we're standing by
00:12:36 --> 00:12:37 that cultural commitment.
00:12:38 --> 00:12:42 As you mentioned, I'm the child of immigrants, and I think a lot of my journey
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 to democracy work has really been shaped by how I understand my parents' immigration
00:12:46 --> 00:12:53 journeys. My father was born in China. He fled to Taiwan during the Civil War there back in 1949.
00:12:53 --> 00:12:58 And he really, his family's journey out of poverty, my family's journey out
00:12:58 --> 00:13:02 of poverty on his side was a story of getting access to,
00:13:02 --> 00:13:07 education and kind of systems of opportunity that created the kind of economic
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 mobility out of poverty, right?
00:13:09 --> 00:13:13 Whereas on my mom's side, she was an orphan, she was adopted by a low-income
00:13:13 --> 00:13:17 single mom, and her story is really one of how a single individual,
00:13:18 --> 00:13:22 single individual's compassion can change the whole trajectory of someone's life.
00:13:22 --> 00:13:26 And those are the two halves of what make a democracy work, right?
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 The structure and the culture, how we show up for one another in the everyday.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:37 Those just cultural moments, whether that's at church or whether that's in the
00:13:37 --> 00:13:43 neighborhood meeting, as well as the formal structural ways in our elections and our politics.
00:13:44 --> 00:13:49 Ultimately at the end of the day democracy to me about how we're building a
00:13:49 --> 00:13:53 country and a community together and how we're sharing power to do that effectively,
00:13:53 --> 00:13:59 and i'm excited that we reaffirm today that that commitment is that everyone
00:13:59 --> 00:14:05 is included in this political project everyone that comes here and is born here is included,
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 and so i think it's an exciting day yeah,
00:14:10 --> 00:14:13 What was your initial mission before working in government?
00:14:16 --> 00:14:20 So before government, you know, I think I was, you know, I was a young person
00:14:20 --> 00:14:23 who really, I was civically engaged in the kind of classical sense,
00:14:23 --> 00:14:28 Eric, like, you know, involved in church, involved in my community and community
00:14:28 --> 00:14:29 service and things like that.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:34 Kind of the ways in which you're told in high school to get involved in your community.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:39 But I didn't feel like I had a good sense yet for why the world works the way that it did.
00:14:40 --> 00:14:45 And for me, my goal was really just to learn. I think a lot of my early career
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 decisions were shaped by trying to answer questions about, you know,
00:14:50 --> 00:14:54 how do we make decisions in philanthropy or in business or in government?
00:14:54 --> 00:14:59 And the more and more that I asked those questions and sought out the answers,
00:14:59 --> 00:15:05 the more that I shaped my own theory on how we need to change our politics of,
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 how we work together. So that's, that's led me to where I am now.
00:15:10 --> 00:15:15 Yeah. So was there a specific, since you, you, you got your,
00:15:16 --> 00:15:21 I guess, baptism in Chicago politics, I grew up in Chicago, so that,
00:15:21 --> 00:15:23 that, that means a lot to me.
00:15:24 --> 00:15:28 Was there a specific incident or issue that came about that really activated
00:15:28 --> 00:15:32 you to, to go on this path and, and, and do this work?
00:15:33 --> 00:15:39 Oh, man. I mean, Chicago is such an amazing city for its civic energy.
00:15:39 --> 00:15:45 I think it's one of those cities where you touch, as soon as you kind of like
00:15:45 --> 00:15:49 butt touches the ground, you know that in this city, people have a deep,
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 deep care for the place that they live. And that was really inspiring to me.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:58 You know, I grew up in a small town and had good, you know, small town energy.
00:15:58 --> 00:16:03 But to see a city at that scale, right? Three million people with every single
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 person having a deep thrive to make the city a better place is really,
00:16:07 --> 00:16:10 really unique. And I think Boston has a lot of that too.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:17 And at the same time, I felt like there's also a deep frustration with the level
00:16:17 --> 00:16:20 of voice that the everyday person had in shaping decisions. You know,
00:16:20 --> 00:16:23 Chicago is obviously famous for its machine politics.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:25 And it's obviously not as bad as it was back in the day.
00:16:26 --> 00:16:30 But it was clear that we had both a structural and a cultural problem there,
00:16:31 --> 00:16:35 where people felt like their voice wasn't being heard in a meaningful way,
00:16:36 --> 00:16:41 that government wasn't as responsive or as effective as it could be in listening
00:16:41 --> 00:16:43 to the issues that residents really had.
00:16:44 --> 00:16:49 And I became obsessed with that problem, right? I think that at the end of the
00:16:49 --> 00:16:54 day, you know, government, city government, particularly, you have to make a lot of hard choices.
00:16:54 --> 00:16:57 And Chicago in particular had to make a lot of hard choices without a ton of,
00:16:58 --> 00:16:59 resources, a lot of constraints.
00:17:00 --> 00:17:06 But I always come back to like in a family setting, whatever community setting
00:17:06 --> 00:17:10 you're imagining, you can make hard decisions together where people don't get
00:17:10 --> 00:17:13 everything they want, but there's a sense of being held.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:17 There's a sense of, I understand why this decision was made and I still felt heard.
00:17:17 --> 00:17:24 And I have a sense of where my voice gets placed in all of this.
00:17:24 --> 00:17:28 And I feel like we are missing that. And there's a huge opportunity,
00:17:28 --> 00:17:35 I think, to reimagine, to renovate democracy and government so that it delivers
00:17:35 --> 00:17:38 this experience of deep sense of belonging,
00:17:38 --> 00:17:43 where people feel empowered with the knowledge, skills, and relationships for
00:17:43 --> 00:17:47 civic life, and that the institutions are actually responsive and inclusive
00:17:47 --> 00:17:50 and effective in collaborating with residents.
00:17:51 --> 00:17:57 And so, left Chicago on that mission and have been on it since. Yeah.
00:17:58 --> 00:18:02 What is the significance of the phrase, fall in love with the problem?
00:18:04 --> 00:18:09 I think that there's a lot of, this is a kind of a classic entrepreneurship
00:18:09 --> 00:18:13 mantra, fall in love with the problem. And it's really stuck with me because
00:18:13 --> 00:18:19 I think a lot of democracy work in particular is a lot of falling in love with the solution.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:25 It's, oh, I think that this particular policy is going to make everything better.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:29 And the reality of it is is that uh,
00:18:30 --> 00:18:35 democracy is just about sharing power right and you tweak that a little bit one way,
00:18:36 --> 00:18:40 people are going to find a way to navigate the new power dynamic right and so
00:18:41 --> 00:18:42 nothing's a silver bullet,
00:18:42 --> 00:18:49 it's all it's it's like this dynamic organism right and people are going to
00:18:49 --> 00:18:54 find ways to evolve and kind of push the limits and the rules of the game are
00:18:54 --> 00:18:56 going to I have to evolve alongside it, right?
00:18:56 --> 00:19:00 I'm a big basketball guy, so I kind of think about how in the NBA.
00:19:01 --> 00:19:04 We've changed the rules about how you can play defense. I don't know how you
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 feel about this, Erik, but the game evolves along with it.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:12 We've evolved how we call travels, and the game has evolved with it.
00:19:12 --> 00:19:15 And you see players kind of finding ways to push those boundaries,
00:19:15 --> 00:19:19 and then the rules change again. And the same is true in our democracy.
00:19:19 --> 00:19:24 We try to set up rules to make sure that it's kind of fair and accessible and inclusive.
00:19:25 --> 00:19:29 And sometimes people abuse those rules, and we need to find ways of updating
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 and renovating those rules for the current context, right? I'll just give you
00:19:33 --> 00:19:35 one kind of quick example, right?
00:19:36 --> 00:19:41 In the kind of electoral context, you know, we initially kind of set up parties
00:19:41 --> 00:19:45 as ways of helping to organize voters and educate, et cetera.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:50 But now we kind of, over the last 30 years, really seen this arc of parties
00:19:50 --> 00:19:53 trying to, in some ways, like narrow the base of voters that actually get a
00:19:53 --> 00:19:56 meaningful vote through party, closed party primaries in particular,
00:19:56 --> 00:19:59 seeing a lot of that in the deep South, right?
00:19:59 --> 00:20:04 But we also see remnants of that in other places. I mean, Louisiana is a classic
00:20:04 --> 00:20:09 example of this, where they used to have these all-party or nonpartisan primaries.
00:20:10 --> 00:20:17 And then in order to kind of concentrate more power in the hands of kind of, in that case, like a.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:24 Republican insider class, they decided to close the primary and try to basically
00:20:24 --> 00:20:28 decide who the nominee was going to be before voters could get to about most
00:20:28 --> 00:20:30 voters who get to a ballot box.
00:20:30 --> 00:20:36 Right and that's that's the dynamic that's the dynamism of people trying to
00:20:36 --> 00:20:40 like you know capture power and and and and take advantage of the rules and
00:20:40 --> 00:20:44 we need to update the rules to adjust to that and i think that
00:20:44 --> 00:20:49 falling in love with the problem and i think the problem is ultimately again how do we share power,
00:20:50 --> 00:20:53 responsibly that's what has to guide us,
00:20:54 --> 00:20:58 And when we fall in love with the solution, sometimes we get a little bit too
00:20:58 --> 00:21:03 bogged down in our thing, and we fail to see and remember the bigger picture.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:07 And I think that the democracy movement is so ready for this,
00:21:08 --> 00:21:11 falling in love with the problem, falling in love with what does a healthy democracy
00:21:11 --> 00:21:14 really look like in our community, in our state.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:20 And I think once we shift to that mindset, we'll see a sea change in how we
00:21:20 --> 00:21:27 collaborate across different policy areas, whether that's like campaign finance or election reform or,
00:21:28 --> 00:21:30 civic education and bridge building and organizing,
00:21:31 --> 00:21:36 and will help states come to a really honest answer about what democracy means to them.
00:21:36 --> 00:21:43 Yeah. Yeah. In politics, a lot of people fall in love with a solution that is
00:21:43 --> 00:21:44 not even attached to a problem.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:51 And so you know that's one thing so that's why I really like that phrase,
00:21:52 --> 00:21:57 And I love a good sports analogy, which, by the way, before we started recording,
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 LeBron made an announcement he's not playing for the Lakers next year.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:05 I missed that. Yeah, he is going to play. Wow. He's not going to play for L.A.
00:22:05 --> 00:22:09 So just let you ruminate on that as we go through.
00:22:10 --> 00:22:15 All right. How did you work with the nonprofit GenUnity?
00:22:15 --> 00:22:18 Am I saying that right? Or is this supposed to be GenUnity? All right,
00:22:18 --> 00:22:23 GenUnity, lead to you becoming the president and CEO of Partners in Democracy.
00:22:24 --> 00:22:28 Yeah, so GenUnity, you know, I co-founded GenUnity back in 2020,
00:22:29 --> 00:22:33 largely to focus on the cultural side of the problem, right?
00:22:33 --> 00:22:37 To bring people together across difference, across race, class,
00:22:37 --> 00:22:43 age, ideology, around the local problems to find that sense of common purpose, right?
00:22:43 --> 00:22:47 Coming out of my time in Chicago, I felt like if we could have these kind of
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 direct lanes of communication between people, for example, working on housing
00:22:52 --> 00:22:56 problems, as well alongside the people experiencing those issues,
00:22:56 --> 00:23:02 we could really develop a type of trust and connective tissue that allows us to iterate, right?
00:23:02 --> 00:23:05 Because same thing here, one policy is not going to fix everything.
00:23:05 --> 00:23:10 It's going to require kind of this constant back and forth and really having a deep partnership.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:18 I started genuinely to do that work. And, you know, we saw a lot of that incredible impact of.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:25 Whether that was helping, you know, folks at healthcare institutions realize
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 gaps in culturally competent care,
00:23:27 --> 00:23:33 or that was kind of uplifting and connecting research being done on,
00:23:33 --> 00:23:39 you know, discrimination against black renters and folks with Section 8 vouchers
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 into the legislative process, we saw,
00:23:43 --> 00:23:44 some incredible, incredible,
00:23:45 --> 00:23:52 examples of that type of connective tissue leading to better problem solving in community.
00:23:52 --> 00:23:57 And at the same time, a lot of the, particularly the legislative work,
00:23:58 --> 00:24:02 didn't actually fully materialize into new law, into new policy,
00:24:02 --> 00:24:03 into new systems change.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:08 And what we started to realize is that the responsiveness in Massachusetts,
00:24:08 --> 00:24:12 in particular, of our state legislature, was an issue, right?
00:24:12 --> 00:24:17 I mean, we have the least competitive elections in Massachusetts of any state
00:24:17 --> 00:24:21 in the country. We have the least transparent state legislature of any state in the country.
00:24:22 --> 00:24:27 And what I realized was this cultural work has to be accompanied by the structural work.
00:24:28 --> 00:24:31 And Partners in Democracy, you know, founded by Danielle Allen,
00:24:31 --> 00:24:36 was doing that, was doing the structural work to figure out how do we change
00:24:36 --> 00:24:42 the rules of the game, tweak them, update them, so that we are sharing power more responsibly.
00:24:42 --> 00:24:46 And that, again, this was kind of me falling in love with the problem,
00:24:47 --> 00:24:51 trying to let go of any sort of like ego associated with, hey,
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 I started this thing and I want to continue to grow it.
00:24:54 --> 00:24:59 To now this has to be one piece of a broader puzzle right in order to build
00:24:59 --> 00:25:04 a state-based model for this is what healthy democracy can look like and there's
00:25:04 --> 00:25:05 no place better than to do that at home,
00:25:06 --> 00:25:12 in massachusetts where honestly we're we are blessed with a whole host of incredible
00:25:12 --> 00:25:18 kind of resources the best civic educators and technologists and organizers
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 that you could find almost anywhere in the country are here.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 So it is an absolute privilege. Yeah.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:33 On PID's homepage, it says American constitutional democracy is in a vicious cycle.
00:25:34 --> 00:25:40 Ineffective, unresponsive institutions fuel disengagement and distrust and vice versa.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:42 We need to flip the switch.
00:25:43 --> 00:25:47 What is the holistic approach to flipping the switch? Yeah.
00:25:48 --> 00:25:52 Two things, structure and culture, again, coming back to that.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:59 That is the virtuous cycle. How do you have empowered everyday people that are
00:25:59 --> 00:26:06 ready and informed and engaged to engage in civic life and the democratic process?
00:26:07 --> 00:26:11 And how do you make sure that the institutions and the leaders within them are
00:26:11 --> 00:26:18 ready to digest and respond and be effective in making decisions off of that constituent input?
00:26:19 --> 00:26:23 And I'd say right now, the situation that we often find ourselves is,
00:26:24 --> 00:26:29 you know, you go to any town meeting or town hall and, you know,
00:26:29 --> 00:26:32 typically you see the loudest voice is kind of the one that wins,
00:26:32 --> 00:26:34 typically by shutting things down.
00:26:35 --> 00:26:39 Not the best idea, right? You go to social media and you see kind of like a
00:26:39 --> 00:26:46 similar story, right? You see often the algorithms are amplifying the loudest, angriest voices.
00:26:46 --> 00:26:50 And, you know, our legislators, our elected leaders see that too.
00:26:50 --> 00:26:57 And in many ways, we've kind of had this breakdown in how constituents engage
00:26:57 --> 00:27:00 productively with electeds. And...
00:27:02 --> 00:27:08 What we can do is create new ties, right? We can give folks better civic information, education.
00:27:09 --> 00:27:14 We can create kind of digital civic threads, digital civic infrastructure that
00:27:14 --> 00:27:19 connects constituents to their elected representatives in ways that allow them to,
00:27:20 --> 00:27:25 kind of synthesize, use AI to synthesize the themes that we're hearing across
00:27:25 --> 00:27:27 thousands or hundreds of thousands of constituents.
00:27:27 --> 00:27:32 This is technology that's not untested. It's already being used in different
00:27:32 --> 00:27:33 parts of Asia and Europe.
00:27:33 --> 00:27:38 It just really hasn't really kind of found a home here in the U.S.
00:27:38 --> 00:27:43 And we're hoping that we can really be some of the leaders in driving that practice.
00:27:45 --> 00:27:50 And, you know, I think that our elected leaders also need slight tweaks to the
00:27:50 --> 00:27:53 incentives of how they engage with constituents, right?
00:27:53 --> 00:27:57 I mean, in Massachusetts, for example, we still have a party primary system
00:27:57 --> 00:28:01 where you're an elected official, you know, and you're running an election,
00:28:01 --> 00:28:04 you're really only targeting the 15% of people that vote in,
00:28:05 --> 00:28:08 the party primary, typically the Democratic primary, because we're such a deep blue state.
00:28:09 --> 00:28:14 If we want to really engage people broadly in the democratic process,
00:28:14 --> 00:28:20 we need to be meeting those 70%, 80% of the general electorate where they are
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 in the general election.
00:28:22 --> 00:28:27 And so reforms that we're advocating for, including all party primaries,
00:28:27 --> 00:28:31 ballot initiative in Massachusetts, will help to facilitate that.
00:28:31 --> 00:28:35 Getting everybody involved in the process at a decisive point in time where
00:28:35 --> 00:28:37 they're already showing up in November. Right.
00:28:38 --> 00:28:41 And that's how we start to flip the switch, right?
00:28:41 --> 00:28:45 It doesn't happen all at once, but it happens by doing the work to prepare people
00:28:45 --> 00:28:50 to engage and meeting them where they are and giving them a meaningful say, right?
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 And slowly but surely, as we start to incorporate those different tweaks,
00:28:55 --> 00:28:57 we trust people with more voice.
00:28:57 --> 00:29:01 We allow them to verify how that voice guides decision making.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:07 And then ultimately, we give them a meaningful say in whether the electeds did a good job in...
00:29:08 --> 00:29:10 Being responsive to that voice.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:17 It sounds simple in some ways, and I think it is.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:24 It just requires a lot of grit and determination to actually do that work on the ground.
00:29:24 --> 00:29:28 But I think it's a North Star vision that almost anyone can get behind.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:34 I think we want to see that level of deep engagement and trust from everyday
00:29:34 --> 00:29:35 people in our democratic process.
00:29:36 --> 00:29:42 And elected leaders want to be responsive and effective in delivering for their constituents.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:46 It's just that we've got all of this kind of gunk in the way, whether it's our,
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 information ecosystem, whether it's kind of the different political centers
00:29:50 --> 00:29:55 we have right now, we can clear a lot of that out and really build a democracy
00:29:55 --> 00:29:58 that delivers for the people. Yeah.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 And that kind of sounds like that really leads into my next question,
00:30:02 --> 00:30:09 because it sounds like one of the terms y'all use is democracy Democracy Renovation, right?
00:30:09 --> 00:30:14 So can democracy renovation work beyond the boundaries of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts?
00:30:15 --> 00:30:21 Absolutely. I mean, I'll give you a great example because our founder and board
00:30:21 --> 00:30:24 chair, Danielle Allen, just put out a new book called The Radical Duke.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:33 And it kind of traces the journey of this English duke who was connected both
00:30:33 --> 00:30:37 to the American Revolution through being kind of the patron of Thomas Paine,
00:30:38 --> 00:30:40 author of Common Sense, while also,
00:30:41 --> 00:30:43 kind of doing the work to renovate.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 The government in Britain to rein in executive overreach, right,
00:30:50 --> 00:30:51 of the monarch at the time.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:57 And i think that's clear evidence historically that uh you know if you look
00:30:57 --> 00:31:00 at king charles right now and you look at the president we have and you ask
00:31:00 --> 00:31:03 which exactly which executive got reined in better,
00:31:04 --> 00:31:10 you can see that democracy renovation even without a revolution can work right and,
00:31:11 --> 00:31:16 we're seeing that every day on the ground and i work in massachusetts in terms
00:31:16 --> 00:31:21 of When you give folks the information to understand how our democracy works
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 today, why it isn't as responsive,
00:31:25 --> 00:31:26 they don't get frustrated and acquit.
00:31:26 --> 00:31:30 They ask, well, okay, what can we do to make this better? And I think.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:37 We've done a lot of almost like victim blaming of voters. we've done a lot of
00:31:37 --> 00:31:42 oh you didn't show up to vote in the primary so you must not have cared if you
00:31:42 --> 00:31:46 were more educated or you cared more you would show up there right and I think,
00:31:47 --> 00:31:50 This is kind of like how we were treating folks in the healthcare space like
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 30 years ago, right? We were saying, oh, patients aren't showing up for their
00:31:54 --> 00:31:56 appointments, so they must not care about their health.
00:31:57 --> 00:32:00 If they were only more educated, they would show up. And then we started to
00:32:00 --> 00:32:02 unpack that more and realize, oh, there's some structural barriers,
00:32:02 --> 00:32:06 like can people actually leave work and take the time off and all these things.
00:32:07 --> 00:32:10 And we haven't gotten there with democracy. We haven't gotten to that mindset
00:32:10 --> 00:32:14 shift of, oh, we need to meet people where they are. We got to stop blaming
00:32:14 --> 00:32:15 people for not being engaged.
00:32:16 --> 00:32:25 And we got to start inviting them in, inviting them to the table in a meaningful and inclusive way. And.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:30 That opportunity is just there for us. You know, as we...
00:32:32 --> 00:32:36 To this inflection point, the 250th anniversary, right, this Saturday,
00:32:37 --> 00:32:43 the dual, the kind of like twin forces of the democracy movement really are
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 about how do we expand suffrage?
00:32:46 --> 00:32:51 How do we give people a more meaningful voice and vote in the democratic process?
00:32:51 --> 00:32:56 And how do we fight corruption? How do we fight back against the maybe darker
00:32:56 --> 00:33:00 parts of our human nature that seek to consolidate power and to kind of impose
00:33:00 --> 00:33:01 our will on other people.
00:33:03 --> 00:33:11 And we have an opportunity, I think, to write that next chapter of how we update the rules,
00:33:12 --> 00:33:18 check the corruption, expand meaningful participation, and get to a place where,
00:33:18 --> 00:33:23 this is my dream, Erik, like when you touch, when your foot touches the ground in Massachusetts,
00:33:24 --> 00:33:28 someday in the future, in the near future, I want you to be able to feel not
00:33:28 --> 00:33:31 just that civic energy that I felt in Chicago, right, of, oh,
00:33:31 --> 00:33:33 people really care about this place.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:38 But people actually feel like when there's a problem, they can raise it.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:43 They know that it'll get responded to. And if a decision gets made that they
00:33:43 --> 00:33:48 don't agree with, they'll at least have the ability to see that and to understand
00:33:49 --> 00:33:50 the kind of perspectives that went into it.
00:33:51 --> 00:33:56 And they'll know, you know, next time around, how they can shift the hearts
00:33:56 --> 00:34:00 and minds of people so that we make a different decision the next time.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:06 And I think that if we can do that, call it in the next five years in Massachusetts,
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 we're going to set a model that really inspires the rest of the country for what's possible.
00:34:11 --> 00:34:15 Again, so many states, especially the southern states, with so many states are
00:34:15 --> 00:34:17 being asked, what does democracy mean to you?
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 And they're looking for an answer, one that's not just the kind of same as the
00:34:22 --> 00:34:26 whole polarized national political conversation.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:30 I think that this is a moment for every state to look inside,
00:34:30 --> 00:34:35 to look within, and to ask, yeah, how do we share power here?
00:34:36 --> 00:34:41 How do we think about representation here? How do we think about honoring our neighbor's voice?
00:34:42 --> 00:34:48 And I think if we can do that, honestly, we will see this kind of grassroots
00:34:48 --> 00:34:52 democracy renewal and renovation in the next 10 years.
00:34:52 --> 00:34:55 Yeah, I think you're on the right track.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:00 The South is going to be vital.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:05 When you just look at the history of the United States, most of the challenges
00:35:05 --> 00:35:09 to democracy have come from the South, from the very beginning.
00:35:10 --> 00:35:14 And I've really been putting a focus on that on the podcast,
00:35:14 --> 00:35:18 but I'm glad that you touched on that a little bit because like I said,
00:35:19 --> 00:35:23 we can go on a different tangent, but I just appreciate what you said.
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 And can I add one other thing there, Erik, which is like we need to address,
00:35:29 --> 00:35:33 definitely those areas like in the South where democracy is most under threat
00:35:33 --> 00:35:35 and in some cases most broken.
00:35:35 --> 00:35:39 And also we need that bright spot. We need that beacon.
00:35:40 --> 00:35:43 We can't sit on our laurels up here where people aren't that enthused about
00:35:43 --> 00:35:47 democracy here in Massachusetts or in a lot of the, you know,
00:35:47 --> 00:35:51 even in other states and kind of the liberal north, so to speak.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:55 We need we need to show people this is what it can look like at its best.
00:35:56 --> 00:36:01 Yeah. All right. So my next couple of questions is based off of what I read
00:36:01 --> 00:36:05 with your 360 degree democracy standard.
00:36:06 --> 00:36:11 And it centers around the word robust. I noticed it was used frequently in that thing.
00:36:12 --> 00:36:16 So what does robust media coverage of politics look like?
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 So I'm going to go back to falling in love with the problem, right?
00:36:21 --> 00:36:25 And ultimately the problem here is we want voters to have the information that
00:36:25 --> 00:36:30 they need. We need more people to have the information they need to trust but
00:36:30 --> 00:36:33 verify what the government is doing in their name.
00:36:34 --> 00:36:41 And the media environment should facilitate that, right? So we want people to
00:36:41 --> 00:36:47 have access to the diversity of perspectives and analysis on what's going on.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:54 We want that to be as accessible as possible. And we want it to not only be,
00:36:54 --> 00:36:56 I think, the collection of.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:02 Writers and voices in the media, But people also, I think, increasingly want
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05 to hear what are my neighbors and friends thinking about this too.
00:37:06 --> 00:37:10 And when I think about the kind of like media environment of the future that
00:37:10 --> 00:37:14 will help enable that, I think about these like digital civic platforms that
00:37:14 --> 00:37:17 are being built. We're building one in Massachusetts called Maple,
00:37:18 --> 00:37:20 the Massachusetts platform for legislative engagement.
00:37:20 --> 00:37:27 But what people do is essentially be a platform or a home for if you care about a particular issue.
00:37:27 --> 00:37:32 I'm just going to pick Massachusetts. We have a record number of ballot initiatives
00:37:32 --> 00:37:36 this cycle. So say that you really cared about a particular ballot initiative
00:37:36 --> 00:37:39 in Massachusetts, maybe something on housing.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:45 You could go to this page where you see, oh, for this particular ballot initiative,
00:37:45 --> 00:37:46 here's all the different media coverage.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:52 Here's all the peer-reviewed research that's being done by academics and connecting
00:37:52 --> 00:37:56 the ivory tower work into practical decisions that people need to make.
00:37:57 --> 00:38:02 Here's what all my neighbors are saying right and and how their perspectives
00:38:02 --> 00:38:05 are differing whether by demographic or geography or whatever.
00:38:06 --> 00:38:10 So that i can start to create a more informed perspective,
00:38:11 --> 00:38:15 and maybe even it's accompanied by places where we can digest all that information
00:38:15 --> 00:38:21 together these kind of deliberative third spaces that i think are so essential to civic life where
00:38:21 --> 00:38:25 you can sit virtually or in person with people and and really unpack like oh
00:38:25 --> 00:38:27 i saw this What do you think is happening there?
00:38:29 --> 00:38:32 That is really still how we learn in dialogue with each other.
00:38:32 --> 00:38:37 And so the media environment is one piece of that ecosystem of making sure that
00:38:38 --> 00:38:44 coverage is diverse and strong and with integrity, that it's accessible to people all across,
00:38:45 --> 00:38:49 a particular state or community, but that it's accompanied by these other things
00:38:49 --> 00:38:53 around listening to your peers and understanding what those different voices
00:38:53 --> 00:38:56 are saying beyond your personal echo chamber.
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 And then also having the space to really digest and process,
00:39:00 --> 00:39:01 well, how do I make sense of this?
00:39:02 --> 00:39:08 Yeah. All right. So what does a robust civics education curriculum look like?
00:39:09 --> 00:39:14 Robust civic education. So it's a gold standard in terms of kind of framework
00:39:14 --> 00:39:18 for civic education, in my mind, is the Educating for American Democracy framework.
00:39:18 --> 00:39:23 And that's one that, you know, our founder, Danielle, helped to spearhead alongside
00:39:23 --> 00:39:27 a number of the leading civics educational organizations across the country.
00:39:27 --> 00:39:30 And, you know, I think especially in a day and age where,
00:39:31 --> 00:39:36 there's so much politicization and polarization on facts,
00:39:37 --> 00:39:42 that you know even what even what fact base we're looking at that the educating
00:39:42 --> 00:39:46 for american democracy framework offers kind of a brilliant solution to that
00:39:46 --> 00:39:49 which is it's inquiry led so,
00:39:49 --> 00:39:54 we might not agree on the answer to a question might not even agree kind of
00:39:54 --> 00:39:58 what evidence is most trustworthy to answer a particular question but what we can agree on,
00:39:59 --> 00:40:03 is what are the really important questions to ask and then give students and
00:40:03 --> 00:40:07 learners the opportunity and the skills and the support,
00:40:08 --> 00:40:10 to start to answer those questions for themselves,
00:40:11 --> 00:40:16 and i think that that is just such a good principle for us again in a day and
00:40:16 --> 00:40:21 age where even here in massachusetts i can tell you for even some of the like simplest,
00:40:22 --> 00:40:27 problems that we're trying to kind of have a clear and honest story around it's
00:40:27 --> 00:40:30 hard for a bipartisan group of folks to agree on a set of facts.
00:40:31 --> 00:40:34 But we should be able to agree, what are the questions we're trying to answer?
00:40:34 --> 00:40:36 Let's put all of our different facts on the table.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:40 And ultimately, let's talk through what we find to be the most persuasive.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:45 And I think preparing learners with that skill as early as possible is really
00:40:45 --> 00:40:52 going to be essential to building the citizenry that can engage effectively,
00:40:53 --> 00:40:55 in deciding how we live together, right?
00:40:55 --> 00:41:00 Deciding who represents us and what they should be prioritizing. Yeah.
00:41:02 --> 00:41:08 When your term at Partners in Democracy is over, what would be your milestone?
00:41:08 --> 00:41:13 And let me explain how I came about the question.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:19 So in Atlanta, where I'm based, the most sacred artifact in the city of Atlanta
00:41:19 --> 00:41:25 is the milestone for the Western and Atlantic Railroad.
00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 That's the terminus post.
00:41:28 --> 00:41:36 And from that post, Atlanta's history expands, you know, through,
00:41:37 --> 00:41:43 race riots and segregation to hosting the Olympics and being one of the 10 richest
00:41:43 --> 00:41:45 cities in the United States.
00:41:46 --> 00:41:50 You know, everything goes back to that milepost, right?
00:41:50 --> 00:41:55 When you look back at the history of Atlanta, it's like it all started with that.
00:41:56 --> 00:42:02 So Genesis, the question is, so when you leave, what is the milestone when you
00:42:02 --> 00:42:07 look back and say, I did that, or I helped make that happen?
00:42:08 --> 00:42:14 What do you envision that being? Yeah. Yeah, for me, again, it all starts at home.
00:42:15 --> 00:42:19 Here in Massachusetts, it starts with lighting that beacon. That would be the milestone, right?
00:42:20 --> 00:42:23 That it's not about...
00:42:24 --> 00:42:30 That again, you could set foot here in a state and you would just feel something
00:42:30 --> 00:42:36 is different here about how people work together to solve shared problems.
00:42:36 --> 00:42:44 That there is a, you know, you sit in on a town meeting and it's not just kind
00:42:44 --> 00:42:49 of angry, loud voices getting up to yell at the elected officials who say,
00:42:49 --> 00:42:51 okay, your two minutes are up.
00:42:51 --> 00:42:56 But it looks like people actually seeking out each other's perspectives,
00:42:56 --> 00:43:00 like asking questions to seek out deeper mutual understanding.
00:43:01 --> 00:43:07 It looks like spaces where even the kind of careful, quiet voices get heard.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:10 Just as equally as anyone else's.
00:43:11 --> 00:43:16 It looks like when we make decisions, people have kind of clear transparency
00:43:16 --> 00:43:19 into why those decisions were made the way that they were.
00:43:20 --> 00:43:25 Whose interests were taken into account and what was prioritized.
00:43:26 --> 00:43:31 I think that so much of our politics right now is that we're afraid to hold
00:43:31 --> 00:43:32 these tensions together.
00:43:33 --> 00:43:38 We're afraid that if we make this choice and if this seems to favor,
00:43:38 --> 00:43:44 corporate interests or moneyed interests or one particular marginalized group
00:43:44 --> 00:43:48 or another, that people won't be able to stand for that.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:52 That people won't be able to understand why we chose what we chose.
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 And so we try to hide that and we try to control the narrative.
00:43:57 --> 00:44:00 And I think we got to move beyond that.
00:44:00 --> 00:44:05 We got to get to a place where we're willing to be transparent and give the
00:44:06 --> 00:44:08 community the tools to understand,
00:44:09 --> 00:44:17 and verify that what government is doing in their name is something that they can get behind.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:24 I would love to see a world where, Erik, I just had my first kid a baby girl,
00:44:25 --> 00:44:29 she's four months old now, I would love to see a world that, you know,
00:44:30 --> 00:44:35 My milestone would be that she grows up in this world where democracy works
00:44:35 --> 00:44:36 like what we're talking about.
00:44:38 --> 00:44:42 She feels heard equally in any civic space that she enters.
00:44:43 --> 00:44:48 She sees a level of responsiveness from her elected leaders who actually reach
00:44:48 --> 00:44:52 out to her when they're campaigning to understand her perspective and her neighbor's perspectives.
00:44:53 --> 00:44:57 And most importantly, she doesn't even think that any of that's remarkable because
00:44:57 --> 00:45:01 that's just the water that she grew up in. That would be my milestone.
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04 Yeah, that's cool. Well, congratulations, Dad.
00:45:05 --> 00:45:08 Thank you. Welcome to the fraternity. Appreciate it.
00:45:09 --> 00:45:14 All right, so I want to end the interview with a challenge I've been issuing to all of my guests.
00:45:15 --> 00:45:18 Finish this sentence, I have hope because.
00:45:19 --> 00:45:24 I have hope. I have hope because I started this work with a deep,
00:45:24 --> 00:45:29 deep belief in the equality of humanity, human dignity.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:38 And, you know, for me, personally, that comes from this place of deep spirituality.
00:45:38 --> 00:45:47 And I think that whether you're spiritual or not, there's this deep connectedness, human to human.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:51 And there's a part of our soul that yearns for that recognition,
00:45:51 --> 00:45:54 that connection, you know, it goes back to that first question you,
00:45:54 --> 00:45:56 one of the first questions you asked me in the icebreaker, right?
00:45:56 --> 00:45:58 Like, what does everyone want? We
00:45:58 --> 00:46:04 all want to be heard. We all want to be recognized as equal human beings.
00:46:04 --> 00:46:11 And I think that that is a profoundly universal feeling.
00:46:11 --> 00:46:13 And that's what gives me hope. Because if we can tap into that,
00:46:14 --> 00:46:15 if we can stop ignoring that.
00:46:17 --> 00:46:20 Else is possible. Yeah.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:25 Well, Jerren Chang, I really appreciate this conversation. If people want to
00:46:25 --> 00:46:31 find out more about Partners in Democracy and, you know, pick your brain a little
00:46:31 --> 00:46:32 more, how can they do that?
00:46:33 --> 00:46:38 Yeah, I would encourage folks to sign up on our website, partnersindemocracy.us,
00:46:39 --> 00:46:44 sign up for our listserv, you know, reach out to me and my team.
00:46:45 --> 00:46:51 You know, my email is very simple, jaron at partners in democracy.us and this
00:46:51 --> 00:46:57 work you know only happens with kind of broad-based engagement of everyday people,
00:46:57 --> 00:47:03 and so i would encourage folks you know whether you think that democracy work
00:47:03 --> 00:47:08 is for you or you're honestly just interested in following along or dipping
00:47:08 --> 00:47:11 your toe and you're not sure just sign up and,
00:47:12 --> 00:47:16 start to engage in the conversation and start to read to start to learn because we need to.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:24 Well, Jerren, again, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your time.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:29 Really appreciate that. One of the rules I have is that once you've been a guest,
00:47:29 --> 00:47:31 you have an open invitation to come back.
00:47:31 --> 00:47:35 So you don't have to wait for me and you'll say, look, I need a platform.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:37 I need to talk about something and we'll make that happen. So,
00:47:38 --> 00:47:43 but I really, really am honored to have had this conversation with you. So thank you again.
00:47:44 --> 00:47:48 Thanks, Erik. Likewise, so, so honored for the invitation and the open invite.
00:47:49 --> 00:47:52 I'm sure we'll be in conversation again soon. So thank you. Yes,
00:47:52 --> 00:47:55 sir. All right, guys, and we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
00:48:15 --> 00:48:20 All right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Bhumika Muchhala.
00:48:21 --> 00:48:28 Dr. Bhumika Muchhala is a critical feminist political economist and theorist whose
00:48:28 --> 00:48:34 work spans advocacy, research, and movement building in the fields of international
00:48:34 --> 00:48:35 financial architecture,
00:48:36 --> 00:48:39 feminist economics, and the colonial futures.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 She serves as a senior advisor with the Third World Network and as a lecturer
00:48:44 --> 00:48:49 in the Environmental Policy and Sustainability Management Program at the New School.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:56 Her teaching portfolio includes research as accompaniment, scholar-advocate
00:48:56 --> 00:49:01 methodologies, critical political economy and ecology, from extraction,
00:49:01 --> 00:49:04 accumulation to regeneration, reparation,
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 and global environmental policy and politics.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:13 The Transdisciplinary scholarship integrates international political economy,
00:49:13 --> 00:49:19 feminist theory, political ecology, and critical traditions within dependency theory,
00:49:19 --> 00:49:25 world systems analysis, anti-colonial thought, and decoloniality.
00:49:25 --> 00:49:31 Dr. Muchhala's research examines economic and financial subordination through
00:49:31 --> 00:49:36 the political economy of sovereign debt, austerity, and financialization in the global South.
00:49:37 --> 00:49:42 She interrogates the complex dynamics of neoliberal capitalism in the current
00:49:42 --> 00:49:47 era through intersectional analyses of dependency, decolonial,
00:49:47 --> 00:49:49 and social reproduction theories.
00:49:49 --> 00:49:55 Her work seeks to reveal prevailing logics and trace the historical genealogy
00:49:55 --> 00:49:57 of structural, gendered, and
00:49:57 --> 00:50:02 epistemic power in order to unsettle the foundations of global inequality.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:08 Her research methodology, she engages with communities across the global South
00:50:08 --> 00:50:12 experiencing and resisting economic austerity and financialization
00:50:13 --> 00:50:19 by formulating social democratic alternatives across policy and politics.
00:50:19 --> 00:50:26 Her recent publications from 2022 to 2025 further examined the interrelation
00:50:26 --> 00:50:32 between climate reparations and sovereign debt through the colonial origins
00:50:32 --> 00:50:34 and epistemic roots of sovereign debt,
00:50:35 --> 00:50:39 international financial subordination through currency hierarchies,
00:50:39 --> 00:50:46 and financial discipline, the gendered dimensions of debt crises in Sri Lanka and Pakistan,
00:50:47 --> 00:50:52 The epistemic foundations of neoliberalism and global governance, the counter.
00:50:54 --> 00:51:00 Hegemonic origins of sustainability in the global South, and possible pathways
00:51:00 --> 00:51:05 epistemic delinking to decolonized economic assumptions.
00:51:05 --> 00:51:11 Has also articulated propositional principles and analysis for a decolonial
00:51:11 --> 00:51:18 and feminist global Green New Deal as a cross-border world-making and collective initiative.
00:51:18 --> 00:51:24 With over two decades of experience in global economic and climate justice movements,
00:51:24 --> 00:51:28 Dr. Muchhala has led leadership roles in strategic advocacy,
00:51:28 --> 00:51:31 research, and political education initiatives.
00:51:31 --> 00:51:35 Through her role as senior advisor and strategist for the Third World Network,
00:51:36 --> 00:51:40 She has been actively involved in transnational social movements and global
00:51:40 --> 00:51:44 coalitions such as the End Austerity Network, Debt for Climate,
00:51:45 --> 00:51:50 and various initiatives focused on systemic reform of the international economic architecture.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:55 She also advises policymakers and negotiators from the Global South within the
00:51:55 --> 00:51:59 United Nations Conference and Negotiations, including the General Assembly.
00:52:00 --> 00:52:04 The Sustainable Development goals process,
00:52:04 --> 00:52:09 the Financing for Development Conferences, the World Conference on the Global
00:52:09 --> 00:52:14 Financial Crisis, and numerous resolutions on reforming the international financial
00:52:14 --> 00:52:17 architecture and addressing sovereign debt.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:23 Her consultancy and advisory engagements include work with the UN Special Rapporteur,
00:52:24 --> 00:52:30 on the Right to Development, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights and UN Women.
00:52:30 --> 00:52:35 She has also reviewed flagship reports for international research and advocacy
00:52:35 --> 00:52:40 organizations such as Oxfam and the International Panel of Experts on Sustainable Food Systems.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:46 Currently, she serves as a member of the Independent Expert Group on Just Transition
00:52:46 --> 00:52:51 for the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty and the Advisory Group on Sovereign
00:52:51 --> 00:52:55 Debt and Colonial Reparations at Debt Justice.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:03 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest on this podcast, Dr.
00:53:03 --> 00:53:05 Bhumika Muchhala.
00:53:16 --> 00:53:22 All right. Dr. Bhumika Muchhala. How you doing, ma'am?
00:53:22 --> 00:53:27 I'm doing great. How about you? I'm doing okay. I appreciate that smile you
00:53:27 --> 00:53:31 gave me when I said your name. That gives me some reassurance.
00:53:32 --> 00:53:38 So, you know, one of the distinctions I have on this show is that I usually
00:53:38 --> 00:53:41 get, well, most all of my guests are smarter than I am.
00:53:42 --> 00:53:48 And I think that truly applies to you and once we get to talking I think the
00:53:48 --> 00:53:50 audience will understand where I'm coming from with that.
00:53:51 --> 00:53:55 Well, what I do is I start off the interviews with a couple of icebreakers,
00:53:56 --> 00:53:57 kind of get the conversation going.
00:53:58 --> 00:54:02 And the first icebreaker is a quote that I want you to respond to.
00:54:03 --> 00:54:10 And the quote is, healing can only begin when deeply entrenched hierarchies
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 rooted in injustice and dehumanization are dismantled.
00:54:15 --> 00:54:20 Yeah, the quote you said is central to my work, to my value system,
00:54:20 --> 00:54:26 to my vision of the world and what I share with communities,
00:54:26 --> 00:54:31 that are resisting and recreating the world in many ways.
00:54:31 --> 00:54:39 So it's really about understanding what decolonial theorists or decoloniality
00:54:39 --> 00:54:42 calls the colonial matrix of power.
00:54:42 --> 00:54:50 It's a way in which to understand the scaffolding of inequalities and justices
00:54:50 --> 00:54:55 and power politics that we live in from a past to present continuum.
00:54:56 --> 00:55:02 That everything is historically situated and has been created by human societies,
00:55:03 --> 00:55:08 you know, in ways that carry through past the present.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:16 So that's really talking about how, as a global community of the human family,
00:55:16 --> 00:55:22 to go forward to heal, we need to address the sorts of hierarchies that we've created.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:28 All human societies are built on explicit hierarchies, and the hierarchy that
00:55:28 --> 00:55:36 most concerns me in my work that I see play out on every level is the unequal hierarchy of humanity.
00:55:37 --> 00:55:42 This is undergirded by an unequal hierarchy of knowledge systems.
00:55:44 --> 00:55:48 Of legal systems, of the financial system.
00:55:49 --> 00:55:53 So everywhere we look, we see an unequal hierarchy, but I think the scaffolding,
00:55:53 --> 00:55:57 in my view, is the unequal hierarchy of humanity.
00:55:58 --> 00:56:02 What humans are more valuable, what humans are less valuable,
00:56:02 --> 00:56:08 and how our society is really built with this scaffolding,
00:56:09 --> 00:56:14 whether consciously or unconsciously, whether embedded or explicit.
00:56:14 --> 00:56:20 This is one of the key hierarchies I feel must be confronted in a more explicit,
00:56:20 --> 00:56:27 honest, painful, collective manner to go forward in new ways.
00:56:27 --> 00:56:33 So the transformation really begins from the embeddedness of how things are.
00:56:34 --> 00:56:40 Yeah. All right. So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:56:40 --> 00:56:44 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:56:50 --> 00:56:55 What is one thing you'd like to learn from someone with a different perspective than yours?
00:56:56 --> 00:57:00 Yeah, something I'd like to learn from a different perspective.
00:57:01 --> 00:57:09 I think a perspective that's always fascinated me is indigenous cultures and communities.
00:57:09 --> 00:57:14 Because if I think of in the world today, who are the people?
00:57:14 --> 00:57:21 What group of people really think, feel, do, see, be in a completely different
00:57:21 --> 00:57:26 ontology from those of us who are situated in,
00:57:27 --> 00:57:33 the crevices and organizations of modern industrial capitalism?
00:57:34 --> 00:57:39 How do they see the world? I know so little. It's a very superficial knowledge
00:57:39 --> 00:57:44 that most of us have of cosmo-visions and cyclical views of time.
00:57:45 --> 00:57:51 I'm particularly fascinated by how they understand time, the teleology of time,
00:57:51 --> 00:57:55 how things do not repeat but are cyclical.
00:57:55 --> 00:57:57 What does the cyclicality mean?
00:57:58 --> 00:58:03 You know, at this point in my life, well into my fourth decade of life,
00:58:03 --> 00:58:05 I really see how things are cyclical.
00:58:06 --> 00:58:10 I see the same sorts of boom-bust economic policies.
00:58:10 --> 00:58:15 I see the same sorts of, you know, the pendulum swing, as Polanyi put it,
00:58:15 --> 00:58:20 you know, the double movement from the left to the right, to the right, to the left, from,
00:58:20 --> 00:58:25 one party to another party, from, you know, action and reaction.
00:58:25 --> 00:58:31 I think indigenous ways of life could teach us a lot about how to navigate the
00:58:31 --> 00:58:33 cyclicalities of society.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:35 All right, let's start from the beginning.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:42 What is a critical feminist political economist and theorist and how did your
00:58:42 --> 00:58:44 life journey lead you to that pursuit.
00:58:45 --> 00:58:53 Sure. Great. So I'll start with my life journey because it is specific.
00:58:54 --> 00:59:04 My parents are from India and I grew up, my entire first 18 years of my life were in Indonesia.
00:59:05 --> 00:59:10 Indonesia is an archipelago nation that most people do not know much about.
00:59:10 --> 00:59:12 It's the fourth largest country in the world.
00:59:13 --> 00:59:20 It was at the center of colonial history, one of the largest colonies of Europe.
00:59:20 --> 00:59:23 The Dutch ruled it for over 350 years,
00:59:24 --> 00:59:29 and it has a really incredible history of the melding of different cultures
00:59:29 --> 00:59:35 from Hindu civilizations to Arabic civilizations overlaid onto an indigenous,
00:59:36 --> 00:59:39 pastoral agriculture civilization.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:46 So I grew up in Indonesia in the 80s and 90s during one of the world's most
00:59:46 --> 00:59:49 notorious military dictatorships.
00:59:49 --> 00:59:53 It was a dictatorship of Suharto, President Suharto.
00:59:54 --> 01:00:00 And after the Dutch left, Indonesia has a deeply entwined relationship with
01:00:00 --> 01:00:03 the United States of America. In fact...
01:00:04 --> 01:00:11 We look back at, you know, the full accounts, Indonesia was one of the central
01:00:11 --> 01:00:14 playgrounds of U.S. imperialism.
01:00:15 --> 01:00:23 The CIA was deeply involved in the coup d'etat that overthrew the populist Sukarno, President Sukarno,
01:00:23 --> 01:00:28 who was instrumental in the freedom fight against the Dutch and was leading
01:00:28 --> 01:00:32 a populist nation with a decolonial vision.
01:00:33 --> 01:00:38 And that populist ethos, which was swinging to the progressive left,
01:00:38 --> 01:00:44 was completely dismantled with the technical assistance, the military arms,
01:00:44 --> 01:00:46 and the financing from the CIA.
01:00:46 --> 01:00:50 This is well documented in a book that has been quite successful.
01:00:50 --> 01:00:52 It's called the Jakarta Method.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:57 And it really shows how the U.S. government then used this Jakarta method in
01:00:57 --> 01:01:04 other places also well-known, such as Chile with the overthrow of Salvador Allende
01:01:04 --> 01:01:09 and the Pinochet dictatorship, and so on and so forth in many other parts of the world.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:18 So growing up in a military dictatorship, the main sort of vision of the key purpose of the U.S.
01:01:18 --> 01:01:25 Intervention, was to really open up the trade liberalization and investment
01:01:25 --> 01:01:33 for U.S. multinationals, as they did across the Global South in the 1970s and 80s.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:39 So I grew up in an American school that was run by the U.S. embassy that was
01:01:39 --> 01:01:45 filled with Texans. Most of my classmates were from Dallas, Fort Worth, and Houston, Texas.
01:01:45 --> 01:01:50 Why? Because they were the children of Texaco, and Exxon, and Mobile,
01:01:50 --> 01:01:54 and BP, and Shell, and Chevron, and Caltex.
01:01:55 --> 01:02:01 Are the folks I grew up with in Indonesia. As per the arrangement between the
01:02:01 --> 01:02:05 U.S. government and the Indonesian government, Indonesian citizens were not allowed into my school.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:12 So I have a childhood understanding. I have a front view. I have a deeply embedded
01:02:12 --> 01:02:15 experience in imperialism.
01:02:15 --> 01:02:21 I understand imperialism from the body and muscle memory of a five-year-old.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:26 And that has helped me to understand the world. That has helped me to understand
01:02:27 --> 01:02:33 how injustice and inequity functions, you know, how the hierarchy of humanity is upheld.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:38 Because this is what I have seen from childhood, right?
01:02:38 --> 01:02:40 With the domination of
01:02:41 --> 01:02:47 Americans over Indonesians, the way they would be treated, the kinds of explicit
01:02:47 --> 01:02:53 racism, not implicit, explicit racism that I saw growing up, right?
01:02:53 --> 01:02:58 Where the local people were essentially dehumanized into native subjects.
01:02:59 --> 01:03:04 They were demoted into native subjects. And really, the rulers of the land were
01:03:04 --> 01:03:07 the oil companies and the expatriates.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:11 And expatriates are very, it's the opposite of immigrants. It's folks who come,
01:03:11 --> 01:03:17 you know, for an explicit purpose of capital accumulation and a political economic,
01:03:17 --> 01:03:22 you know, purpose of a temporary stay with the intention to go back.
01:03:22 --> 01:03:28 So there were kids and communities from all over the world, but it was dominated
01:03:29 --> 01:03:33 by the Americans who created a replica
01:03:33 --> 01:03:39 of American suburbs, American grocery stores, American pool clubs,
01:03:39 --> 01:03:41 American roller skating rinks.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:47 So you really saw how this divide and rule and this exclusive difference-making
01:03:47 --> 01:03:53 worked as an underpinning logic, that we are here for a certain amount of time.
01:03:53 --> 01:04:00 We feel completely entitled to ecologically plunder and accumulate from a foreign
01:04:00 --> 01:04:07 land, but we are superior to the people, so we are entitled to do what we are doing.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:12 So this was an era in which there was profound human rights and.
01:04:13 --> 01:04:19 Of the Suharto dictatorship. Many are familiar with East Timor and many other,
01:04:20 --> 01:04:23 political and civil violations.
01:04:23 --> 01:04:27 And all of this was not talked about. We never learned about it in school.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:29 We learned U.S. history.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:36 We learned European history. We learned ancient world history of Egypt and Mesopotamia.
01:04:36 --> 01:04:40 But we learned nothing about Southeast Asia, nothing about Indonesia.
01:04:41 --> 01:04:46 Everything was silenced. So I also understand epistemic erasure and epistemic
01:04:46 --> 01:04:50 hierarchy, what knowledges are taught, how we understand the world,
01:04:50 --> 01:04:55 how we know the world, you know, what we consider knowledge, right?
01:04:55 --> 01:04:59 And in a dictatorship, you don't have media, you don't have TV stations.
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 There's one newspaper, a lot of it is censored with black ink that rubs off on your fingers.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:12 So it was an incredible life experience growing up in Suharto's Indonesia with
01:05:12 --> 01:05:16 the Texans, and that has informed my entire path going forward.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:22 I have no choice but to work on social and economic justice through an anti-colonial,
01:05:22 --> 01:05:30 decolonial, anti-capitalist, anti-neoliberal discourse lens and structural analysis, Because,
01:05:31 --> 01:05:36 that is precisely what I know from a childhood.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:41 Basis point as the imperative of my life,
01:05:42 --> 01:05:46 as my life duty, as what makes sense for me in my life journey.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:55 It's not simply about my own experience, but about what I saw firsthand happen all around me.
01:05:55 --> 01:05:59 The expressions on the faces of the Indonesians I grew up with,
01:05:59 --> 01:06:07 those expressions, those reactions of indignity, of insult, of dehumanization will never leave me.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:13 And that's really what guides me forward because I know what I saw growing up is a global phenomenon.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:17 Okay. That's powerful. That's awesome.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:23 Which leads me to my next question, which you sound like that you would be the right person to ask.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:27 Why does America do capitalism wrong? Aha.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:37 So I think we need to situate American capitalism in a very separate kind of understanding.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:44 It is not only hyper-capitalist, but it is the essential creator,
01:06:44 --> 01:06:48 formation, holder of neoliberalism.
01:06:48 --> 01:06:51 And neoliberalism is different from capitalism, so I want to make that distinction
01:06:51 --> 01:06:54 right away, that neoliberalism is distinct.
01:06:54 --> 01:07:02 Neoliberalism is really a paradigm of monopoly capitalism, right?
01:07:03 --> 01:07:07 Understand it as liberalization, privatization, and deregulation,
01:07:08 --> 01:07:13 Reagan-Thatcher since the late 1970s, the rollback of the state.
01:07:13 --> 01:07:21 But we need to understand the U.S. neoliberal paradigm actually was a case study
01:07:21 --> 01:07:24 in positioning the state, the government,
01:07:24 --> 01:07:30 to explicitly serve the interests of corporations and private investors,
01:07:30 --> 01:07:33 the private sector, the financial market.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:38 And this redeployment of the role of the state was not that the role of the state shrunk.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:44 The role of the state was as enduring and flourishing and massive as ever.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:52 But for the legal protections, the trade agreements, the regulatory infrastructure,
01:07:52 --> 01:07:56 that would serve the private sector, that would serve private interests.
01:07:57 --> 01:08:02 So it was really this positioning of the corporate and private domain over and
01:08:02 --> 01:08:06 above the social contract, over and above economic, social and human rights,
01:08:06 --> 01:08:09 social equity, distributive justice.
01:08:10 --> 01:08:14 And this is a particular feature of the U.S.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:20 Capitalism that is distinct, and that has led to the birth and the creation
01:08:20 --> 01:08:27 of this untenable monstrosity that we know as financialization.
01:08:28 --> 01:08:34 The birth of finance capital, Wall Street, the globalization of money,
01:08:34 --> 01:08:36 where financial markets are today,
01:08:37 --> 01:08:44 you know, just exponentially larger than the real market or the real economy
01:08:44 --> 01:08:50 of jobs, production, factories, income, consumption, trade, exchange.
01:08:50 --> 01:08:56 You have essentially what the U.S. gave birth to through the Wall Street and
01:08:56 --> 01:08:58 through the alliances with the City of London.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:07 Is a world in which the investment banks, asset managers, rule the world.
01:09:07 --> 01:09:11 They have come to dominate everything from production, consumption,
01:09:11 --> 01:09:13 regulation, health, education.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:17 And this is in line with intellectual monopoly capitalism, which the U.S.
01:09:17 --> 01:09:21 Has really created in perfection.
01:09:22 --> 01:09:26 This is the world of patents, copyrights, trademarks that act as a monopoly
01:09:26 --> 01:09:31 force that reduce competitive supply, exclude others from using patented knowledges,
01:09:31 --> 01:09:34 and mark up prices, right?
01:09:34 --> 01:09:39 And then what the United States did is it created these Bretton Woods institutions,
01:09:39 --> 01:09:43 which we'll come to later, but the Bretton Woods institutions and international
01:09:43 --> 01:09:46 financial institutions maintained,
01:09:46 --> 01:09:52 a particular kind of economic model oriented around exports and cash crops and
01:09:52 --> 01:09:57 plantations and extraction for the global South to ensure that,
01:09:57 --> 01:10:03 the United States would always have very cheap access to fruits and coffee and
01:10:03 --> 01:10:07 cocoa and sugar, you know, in alignment with past history.
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 But one of the things that U.S. and that American capitalism really.
01:10:14 --> 01:10:18 Especially in the last 20 years that we've seen the rise of the far right in
01:10:18 --> 01:10:23 the United States, Is it abandon the social contract, the abandonment of the
01:10:23 --> 01:10:28 social contract to provide health and education,
01:10:28 --> 01:10:34 and, you know, decent work and some sense of security and meaningful stability,
01:10:35 --> 01:10:37 in life, the rise of the precariat.
01:10:40 --> 01:10:44 The lack of any certainty that people have, the inability to afford housing,
01:10:45 --> 01:10:49 you know, all public goods and services plummeting in quality.
01:10:51 --> 01:10:52 And delivery.
01:10:53 --> 01:10:58 This abandonment of the social contract is also specific to U.S.
01:10:58 --> 01:11:04 Neoliberalism, as opposed to its descendants in Europe.
01:11:05 --> 01:11:10 The United States abandoned the social contract in a very particular way that
01:11:10 --> 01:11:14 is inextricably entwined with racial capitalism.
01:11:14 --> 01:11:19 European colonialism practiced racial capitalism, but the United States,
01:11:19 --> 01:11:24 well, European colonialism practiced racial capitalism with their colonies across the seas.
01:11:25 --> 01:11:29 The United States practices racial capitalism within its borders.
01:11:29 --> 01:11:36 So the United States is such a particular example of practicing external neocolonialism,
01:11:36 --> 01:11:39 but also internal racial capitalism.
01:11:40 --> 01:11:45 And it does this in a really deft way by abandoning the social contract and
01:11:45 --> 01:11:50 by positioning the financial market in such a powerful position over.
01:11:51 --> 01:11:58 The real economy and the intellectual monopoly capitalism, where it controls
01:11:58 --> 01:12:03 the technologies and the value chain across the world.
01:12:03 --> 01:12:08 So these are some of the features that are so specific to American capitalism.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:16 Yeah, because in my limited capacity, I think I focus more on the abandonment
01:12:16 --> 01:12:19 of the social contract. As somebody that's been in politics,
01:12:19 --> 01:12:23 that's where my focus has been.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:30 But to tie it in with what's going on with these big tech corporations,
01:12:30 --> 01:12:34 historically, the oil corporations and all that stuff,
01:12:36 --> 01:12:39 Yeah, I really, really appreciate the way that you explain that.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:48 So since we've mentioned the term several times, define what the Global South is.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:55 So this will be my definition, and I'm sure it can and will be contested.
01:12:55 --> 01:13:00 In my view, the Global South are regions.
01:13:00 --> 01:13:07 It is not simply geographical, but they are regions that have experienced a
01:13:07 --> 01:13:13 history of domination, of territorial conquest,
01:13:14 --> 01:13:21 of the intervention into their economic and social structures.
01:13:22 --> 01:13:29 They are regions that have experienced a history in which their social and economic
01:13:29 --> 01:13:34 practices were altered, were disrupted, were compromised,
01:13:34 --> 01:13:37 where their traditional ways of living existed.
01:13:38 --> 01:13:47 Were interfered with, where their natural resources were exploited or decimated, and where,
01:13:48 --> 01:13:57 the people, the human bodies in these geographies experienced exploitation,
01:13:57 --> 01:14:02 migration, servitude, violation,
01:14:03 --> 01:14:04 and control.
01:14:04 --> 01:14:13 So these are, it's a term that is used for really delineating regions that experienced
01:14:13 --> 01:14:19 certain events on a historical basis.
01:14:19 --> 01:14:22 It's a historically derived experience.
01:14:23 --> 01:14:29 And this is the Global South, right? Because if it's simply geography,
01:14:29 --> 01:14:33 well, Australia and New Zealand are in the global south, technically speaking,
01:14:33 --> 01:14:38 and so is South Africa and perhaps other places I can think of right now,
01:14:39 --> 01:14:42 where it's not exactly the same.
01:14:42 --> 01:14:46 Well, I make an exception for South Africa as it's a settler colony.
01:14:47 --> 01:14:51 So it is distinct. But say, for example, Australia and New Zealand as examples.
01:14:53 --> 01:14:56 There is no essentialism here. That's what's most important,
01:14:56 --> 01:15:01 most critical. I have to emphasize and highlight and stress there's no essentialism.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:07 Not all of the global South is, you know, on the same continuum, right?
01:15:07 --> 01:15:14 China is an incredibly different history than Kenya, and Kenya is a very different history than Brazil.
01:15:15 --> 01:15:19 And again, very different from India to Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia.
01:15:20 --> 01:15:26 There are so many differences. But I think the one thread is that the Global South.
01:15:27 --> 01:15:36 Is regions of the world who bear the brunt of economic and ecological asymmetry, structural asymmetry,
01:15:37 --> 01:15:41 in that their economies tend to be more dominated by extraction,
01:15:42 --> 01:15:47 mining, plantations, low value added and labor intensive manufacturing,
01:15:48 --> 01:15:51 where the informal sector tends to be large.
01:15:51 --> 01:15:58 Where corporate and firm activity is much weaker than that in Europe and the United States.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:04 But perhaps even with all of these characteristics, the one characteristic or the one feature,
01:16:04 --> 01:16:10 I would want to highlight is that the global South is entwined in a dependent
01:16:10 --> 01:16:18 relationality with rich countries that were former colonizers or that benefited from,
01:16:18 --> 01:16:22 the colonial history of the last 500 years.
01:16:23 --> 01:16:27 So again, we're really, it's a short frame of history, right?
01:16:27 --> 01:16:30 Human beings have been around for tens of thousands of years.
01:16:30 --> 01:16:36 So we're only talking about a speck, a speck of history, you know,
01:16:36 --> 01:16:40 half a millennia, half a millennia that has shaped the.
01:16:41 --> 01:16:48 The current geography and topography of power and access and resources.
01:16:49 --> 01:16:54 I mean, if we go back even a thousand years, I mean, the world was run by China
01:16:54 --> 01:16:57 and India, 2 years India.
01:16:57 --> 01:17:04 So you have, I mean, this is why, again, going back to indigenous ways of understanding
01:17:04 --> 01:17:06 cyclicality and change and.
01:17:09 --> 01:17:16 Impermanence is really, really, really critical, you know, that things are constantly
01:17:16 --> 01:17:21 changing, but the structural realities have to be taken seriously.
01:17:22 --> 01:17:25 And one example of how it needs to be taken seriously, I mean,
01:17:25 --> 01:17:32 today we have an enormous imperative for critical minerals, Because the new sort of tech boom,
01:17:32 --> 01:17:38 from AI to other kinds of developments across the,
01:17:39 --> 01:17:44 industrial and tech sector require critical minerals for the new green economy.
01:17:45 --> 01:17:52 And we're seeing perhaps a reproduction of old forms of resource grabs because
01:17:52 --> 01:17:55 most of the critical minerals are on the continent of Africa or other,
01:17:56 --> 01:17:59 you know, developing nations in the global south.
01:17:59 --> 01:18:06 So, why is there such vulnerability with this critical minerals resource rush, right?
01:18:07 --> 01:18:10 Where is the dependency? Where is the vulnerability? You know,
01:18:11 --> 01:18:12 who has the technologies?
01:18:13 --> 01:18:17 Who has the resources? You know, who has the financial power?
01:18:17 --> 01:18:24 You know, what is the calculus of negotiations and agency?
01:18:24 --> 01:18:28 And that is really what the Global South is about, agency and power.
01:18:29 --> 01:18:31 So based on your definition.
01:18:33 --> 01:18:38 There's European nations that fall under the Global South.
01:18:39 --> 01:18:43 Moniker. Because in my mind, I'm old enough to remember there was a country
01:18:43 --> 01:18:46 called Yugoslavia, and now it's been divided up.
01:18:47 --> 01:18:52 And it seems like that, you know, my limited knowledge of world history,
01:18:52 --> 01:18:56 it seems like they would fall under the category of being global south.
01:18:56 --> 01:18:59 Would you agree with that? Or am I being too simplistic?
01:19:00 --> 01:19:06 No, that's a great point, because, say, Eastern European nations do demonstrate
01:19:06 --> 01:19:12 some of the same tenets of dependency and vulnerability in the power calculus.
01:19:13 --> 01:19:21 However, what distinguishes Eastern European nations is their connectivity to
01:19:21 --> 01:19:24 mainland Europe is distinct,
01:19:25 --> 01:19:32 is undeniably distinct from that of African nations or Southeast Asian nations.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:40 They're they're embroiled in a power asymmetry or resource asymmetry within europe but.
01:19:44 --> 01:19:48 I would place Eastern European nations as sort of, you know,
01:19:49 --> 01:19:54 a hybridity, a hybridity between Global South and Europe. Okay.
01:19:55 --> 01:20:02 So you kind of explained in your definition of why America does capitalism wrong,
01:20:02 --> 01:20:09 how that has impacted the Global South, especially when it deals to austerity and financialization.
01:20:09 --> 01:20:14 How much has climate change economically impacted the global South?
01:20:15 --> 01:20:20 Yeah, this is a very critical question. Thank you for asking it.
01:20:21 --> 01:20:29 You know, first, I think it's very important to situate climate change within
01:20:29 --> 01:20:30 the history of colonialism.
01:20:33 --> 01:20:38 The rise of industrialization, right? I mean, when we look at those charts,
01:20:38 --> 01:20:40 right, They talk about how...
01:20:42 --> 01:20:46 Carbon emissions really peaked from the advent of industrialization,
01:20:46 --> 01:20:51 you know, early 1900s, early 20th century.
01:20:52 --> 01:20:59 But industrialization, you know, in terms of our typical understanding of smokestacks
01:20:59 --> 01:21:03 and factory chimneys and the production of,
01:21:04 --> 01:21:10 technology and manufactured goods and high-speed world trade,
01:21:11 --> 01:21:16 and private firms leading to the modern corporation.
01:21:17 --> 01:21:20 This industrialization is firmly situated
01:21:21 --> 01:21:28 in the financial and the resource extraction that the former colonizers and
01:21:28 --> 01:21:32 current imperial nations were able to enact,
01:21:33 --> 01:21:37 in this period of half a millennia of historical processes.
01:21:37 --> 01:21:42 So it is this accumulation of the resources, both,
01:21:43 --> 01:21:50 commodity, labor, land, because the commodity also used land, right?
01:21:50 --> 01:21:55 And labor in terms of, you know, transatlantic slavery, indentured labor,
01:21:56 --> 01:21:58 and the financial accumulation, right?
01:21:59 --> 01:22:07 The unspeakably voluminous financial accumulation, this massive critical supply,
01:22:08 --> 01:22:13 of money resources really led to the advent of industrialization.
01:22:13 --> 01:22:20 Now, industrialization affected climate in undeniable, empirically illustrated
01:22:20 --> 01:22:24 ways, thanks to the work of the IPCC,
01:22:25 --> 01:22:31 and international scientists and associations around the world over the last many decades.
01:22:31 --> 01:22:35 We know that industrialization has a direct link to carbon emissions.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:40 Carbon emissions do not know borders. They do not need passports.
01:22:40 --> 01:22:44 They do not travel in, you know, certain routes.
01:22:45 --> 01:22:48 Carbon emissions are diffused globally.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:54 Due to the history of unequal infrastructures, where you don't have as much
01:22:54 --> 01:22:57 technological and infrastructure resources in the global south,
01:22:57 --> 01:23:01 climate change will hit the global south far harder,
01:23:01 --> 01:23:07 far deeper, in much more damaging and devastating ways than in the north.
01:23:07 --> 01:23:11 Every typhoon that happens in the Philippines, the floods in India,
01:23:13 --> 01:23:19 the droughts across African nations, earthquakes, Venezuela a couple days ago.
01:23:21 --> 01:23:24 It's devastating these communities far harder than it would.
01:23:24 --> 01:23:29 It also devastates communities in the United States. Let's not get that wrong.
01:23:29 --> 01:23:34 It also devastates communities all over the North or the rich,
01:23:34 --> 01:23:36 advanced, industrialized countries.
01:23:36 --> 01:23:42 It is universal. But I'm talking about the degrees, the degrees in Jamaica,
01:23:42 --> 01:23:47 entire villages wiped out, families sliding into the floods.
01:23:51 --> 01:23:55 The ways in which roads are structured, the ways in which homes are structured,
01:23:55 --> 01:24:01 the absence of the resources, financial, technological, infrastructure,
01:24:02 --> 01:24:03 you know, transportation,
01:24:04 --> 01:24:08 staff, equipment, institutions.
01:24:08 --> 01:24:14 You know, we really need to go into this sort of layers of provisioning,
01:24:14 --> 01:24:16 of what is the provisioning?
01:24:16 --> 01:24:21 What is the provisioning in that society to address climate, right?
01:24:21 --> 01:24:26 If forest fires happen outside of California or Australia, you simply don't
01:24:26 --> 01:24:32 have as much capacity of helicopters shooting at water as you did in California a couple of years ago
01:24:33 --> 01:24:38 or in Australia where the forest fires led to such devastation of the animal communities.
01:24:39 --> 01:24:42 You don't have that kind of quick response systems.
01:24:42 --> 01:24:51 So you have this asymmetry that is economically and resource situated in colonialism,
01:24:51 --> 01:24:54 and it gets compounded by climate change.
01:24:54 --> 01:24:59 The key thing I want to highlight, though, about the economics of climate change
01:24:59 --> 01:25:05 or the economic injustice sort of embedded into climate disaster or climate urgency.
01:25:06 --> 01:25:12 In the climate emergency we have today, most global South nations...
01:25:13 --> 01:25:21 The world have to take out financial loans when they're hit by climate disasters.
01:25:22 --> 01:25:27 When they're hit by climate disasters, first of all, the financial markets downgrade their economies.
01:25:27 --> 01:25:31 They face all kinds of capital outflows and economic distress.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:36 On top of it, they don't have the necessary financial resources to address the
01:25:36 --> 01:25:39 loss and damage, the adaptation, the response measures.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:44 So they take out financial loans. The financial loans create more debt,
01:25:44 --> 01:25:49 which adds on to the sovereign debt distress or the sovereign debt burdens they already have.
01:25:49 --> 01:25:59 So climate, the climate emergency, the way it fuels the economic emergency.
01:25:59 --> 01:26:05 And then compounds the lack of resources for the climate emergency.
01:26:05 --> 01:26:12 So this is called the vicious cycle between sovereign debt and climate debt.
01:26:12 --> 01:26:18 And I say climate debt because climate change is, you know, situated within
01:26:18 --> 01:26:20 an ecological and climate debt.
01:26:20 --> 01:26:25 What I explained about the colonial history that underpins climate inequality,
01:26:26 --> 01:26:32 is oftentimes known called ecological debt, ecological imperialism that leads to ecological debt.
01:26:33 --> 01:26:41 So climate debt is what the industrializing nations owe to the global south
01:26:41 --> 01:26:44 for the damage created by industrialization.
01:26:44 --> 01:26:50 And let's also point out that most of the manufacturing or the carbon emissions
01:26:50 --> 01:26:54 of the global south, for example, through palm oil plantations,
01:26:54 --> 01:26:58 or through mining that takes place in the global south today because,
01:26:59 --> 01:27:04 the global south, the majority of carbon emissions is in their economic structures.
01:27:04 --> 01:27:07 It's in their production structures. It's not in consumption.
01:27:07 --> 01:27:11 It's not in transportation. It's in the mining, in the plantations.
01:27:11 --> 01:27:17 Those mines and those plantations are producing things for the rich countries,
01:27:17 --> 01:27:20 the palm oil that goes into your peanut butter jars or the cobalt or the copper
01:27:20 --> 01:27:22 that goes into your iPhones.
01:27:22 --> 01:27:28 So let's really trace what is essentially called climate colonialism.
01:27:28 --> 01:27:34 Yeah. So that leads me to this, because, you know, from a political standpoint,
01:27:34 --> 01:27:39 we've always talked about, especially in the United States, this Green New Deal. Right.
01:27:40 --> 01:27:48 And so but you you basically you wrote an article that talks about it from a
01:27:48 --> 01:27:52 different perspective as a feminist global Green New Deal.
01:27:53 --> 01:27:58 And you were saying that that has to be foundational in any kind of changes
01:27:58 --> 01:28:05 to address climate change economically and in other facets. So explain what
01:28:05 --> 01:28:07 is what is a feminist global Green New Deal?
01:28:09 --> 01:28:14 Absolutely. So let's contextualize. This is when Bernie Sanders and Alexandria
01:28:14 --> 01:28:19 Ocasio-Cortez and perhaps several others during the pandemic,
01:28:19 --> 01:28:24 well, no, before the pandemic, 2019, they came out with the Green New Deal sort of,
01:28:25 --> 01:28:29 platform or proposal or project, right? The Green New Deal. We all remember.
01:28:30 --> 01:28:33 I think it sort of faded in relevance because now we have.
01:28:34 --> 01:28:40 Endless wars and other kinds of commodity and oil price shocks that are far
01:28:40 --> 01:28:48 overshadowing the kind of more world-making propositional vision of the Green New Deal.
01:28:48 --> 01:28:52 So I just want to situate, we're talking about this proposal for a Green New Deal.
01:28:52 --> 01:28:58 I mean, I was intrigued. Many of us were intrigued. A lot of us were saying,
01:28:58 --> 01:29:00 okay, this is interesting.
01:29:01 --> 01:29:03 What are the components? What does this mean?
01:29:04 --> 01:29:08 And I think, you know, in terms of where I'm coming from with my understanding
01:29:08 --> 01:29:13 of global inequalities, of colonial histories, of, you know,
01:29:14 --> 01:29:20 the social construction of hierarchies, of financialization, and, you know,
01:29:21 --> 01:29:28 how global governance really works to, you know, keep a few countries rich and
01:29:28 --> 01:29:32 maintain, you know, subservience of most other countries. around the world.
01:29:33 --> 01:29:36 So I'm really looking at it through that lens. And I'm saying,
01:29:36 --> 01:29:39 okay, well, this is not international.
01:29:39 --> 01:29:47 It is not addressing the colonial realities of our world systems.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:57 It's not even intersectional. So, you know, let's take their framework and let's expand it.
01:29:57 --> 01:30:02 Let's take their framework and instead of saying, well, this is not a good framework,
01:30:02 --> 01:30:05 let's say, okay, we'll roll with this.
01:30:06 --> 01:30:09 Let's expand and layer it.
01:30:11 --> 01:30:16 Let's, you know, infuse more complexity and vision into it.
01:30:17 --> 01:30:27 So I, you know, at that time, I was also during the pandemic deep in my dissertation for my PhD.
01:30:27 --> 01:30:33 So I was in the mix with all the reading of what I call my midlife crisis PhD.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:40 And, you know, all of that literature and all of that reading really helped
01:30:40 --> 01:30:44 me to understand what was happening around me, especially during the pandemic.
01:30:45 --> 01:30:54 I mean, we had, you know, explosive moments of societal emergencies on many levels, right?
01:30:55 --> 01:31:00 On race justice, on climate justice, economic justice. We really saw how all
01:31:01 --> 01:31:06 the layers of race, class justice come together in moments of a global crisis.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:12 So I'm thinking a feminist and decolonial Green New Deal has to be international,
01:31:12 --> 01:31:18 truly international, internationalist, meaning that it has to address the inequalities
01:31:18 --> 01:31:21 and the asymmetries and the relationships between
01:31:22 --> 01:31:25 different communities, between borders.
01:31:26 --> 01:31:30 It has to resist the socially constructed hierarchies of race,
01:31:30 --> 01:31:35 of gender, of class, of caste, of sexuality, of ability.
01:31:36 --> 01:31:40 And this is really at a time in the pandemic where we were really talking about intersectionality.
01:31:42 --> 01:31:48 Have to understand these intersectional inequalities as underpinning colonial,
01:31:48 --> 01:31:51 neoliberal, and capitalist structures, systems, and discourses.
01:31:52 --> 01:31:56 So a global Green New Deal would recognize that the ecological collapse we are
01:31:56 --> 01:32:03 experiencing in climate change is the direct result of unequal social and economic,
01:32:03 --> 01:32:06 arrangements, unequal social contracts, unequal economic structures,
01:32:07 --> 01:32:13 in which these hierarchies shape our social and economic relations, right?
01:32:13 --> 01:32:18 Going back to the sort of structural understanding of unequal relations.
01:32:18 --> 01:32:24 So a decolonial position, as I wrote about it, means that we cannot deny that
01:32:24 --> 01:32:28 we live in a world where black, brown, feminine, queer, and working class bodies
01:32:28 --> 01:32:30 endure acts of injustice.
01:32:31 --> 01:32:38 And a feminist and decolonial global Green New Deal would actively create new paradigms that forge.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:48 Distributive and structural justice between climate change, racialized and gendered exploitations,
01:32:49 --> 01:32:56 and economic structures such as trade and financial rules that reproduce inequalities,
01:32:56 --> 01:33:00 right, within the borders and between the borders.
01:33:01 --> 01:33:06 So it was proposition, right? It was a world-making endeavor,
01:33:06 --> 01:33:11 to be internationalist, to be intersectional, to address global historical justice,
01:33:11 --> 01:33:14 and to address a shift in consciousness,
01:33:14 --> 01:33:18 to recognize that no country or region exists in isolation in a world that is
01:33:18 --> 01:33:24 inextricably interdependent through trade, human, capital, and climate flows, right?
01:33:24 --> 01:33:27 So this was sort of a world-making attempt.
01:33:28 --> 01:33:34 I wrote a paper of just 21 pages on it, and then I wrote a few op-eds and articles.
01:33:34 --> 01:33:38 Interestingly, it went a little bit viral. People picked it up,
01:33:38 --> 01:33:43 especially people in my community of advocates and campaigners and social and
01:33:43 --> 01:33:45 political movements, progressive academics.
01:33:46 --> 01:33:51 So there was a period during the pandemic where I was speaking about my proposal
01:33:51 --> 01:33:53 about, you know, a couple of times a week.
01:33:54 --> 01:34:01 So case in point, as the pandemic wound down in 2022 to 23, it disappeared.
01:34:02 --> 01:34:11 Disappeared. That's it. Nobody was interested in this paper or in this more
01:34:11 --> 01:34:16 sort of propositional and bold way of addressing inequalities.
01:34:17 --> 01:34:22 Reverted back. It was devastating to see. And I think the reversion back was
01:34:22 --> 01:34:28 also in the context of the rising global authoritarianism and neofascism and the far right.
01:34:29 --> 01:34:33 And the attention shifted to one of damage control, to one of emergency and panic.
01:34:34 --> 01:34:38 And so when I look back at this paper, I feel nostalgic that we were in a really
01:34:38 --> 01:34:43 propositional mode during the pandemic, where we were talking about the pandemic
01:34:43 --> 01:34:46 is a portal, right? All those phrases that we heard inventory.
01:34:47 --> 01:34:52 So it's in that context. And, you know, we're only in 2026, but I feel like,
01:34:53 --> 01:34:56 that was a moment that is not the case now.
01:34:56 --> 01:35:00 We're in a different reality now. But I hope some of the tenets,
01:35:02 --> 01:35:10 are still resonating, perhaps not as immediate to the issues we have on hand
01:35:10 --> 01:35:15 right now with war and commodity shocks and AI. So,
01:35:18 --> 01:35:24 with every sort of turn of the moment, you have different issues come on the
01:35:24 --> 01:35:29 table. And I think our challenge as theorists, as thinkers, as,
01:35:31 --> 01:35:38 social movement leaders, as political thinkers and critics, we cannot be defined
01:35:38 --> 01:35:41 merely by the topics du jour.
01:35:47 --> 01:35:50 We have to be the vanguards of continuity.
01:35:51 --> 01:35:58 So I am actually honestly struggling with that, how to keep some of that world-making
01:35:58 --> 01:36:04 boldness and vision that we saw during the pandemic, how do we keep some of that alive?
01:36:04 --> 01:36:11 How do we act in ways that are not limited by damage control and reactionism?
01:36:12 --> 01:36:19 Yeah, but, you know, once that spark has been lit, once those ideas have been
01:36:19 --> 01:36:23 germinated and put out there, there are people that are paying attention.
01:36:24 --> 01:36:29 And so I would say, don't despair too much.
01:36:29 --> 01:36:33 It's going to manifest itself in some way, I believe.
01:36:33 --> 01:36:38 And I think with the dynamics of politics now,
01:36:38 --> 01:36:42 I think the politics that you're seeing, the knee-jerk reaction is one thing,
01:36:43 --> 01:36:47 but these people that are running for office now, these younger folks,
01:36:47 --> 01:36:51 people that have been exposed to your teachings and others, they're starting
01:36:51 --> 01:36:53 to be brave enough to run.
01:36:53 --> 01:36:56 And so, and I'm just looking at it from a U.S.
01:36:56 --> 01:37:02 Lens, but I think it's global as well. I mean, Orban got kicked out,
01:37:02 --> 01:37:06 you know, and a lot of people didn't see that coming after he had been there
01:37:06 --> 01:37:10 for 16 years. So don't despair too much, Professor.
01:37:12 --> 01:37:15 I think we're going to be okay. It's going to take a little more time than we wanted.
01:37:16 --> 01:37:20 A lot of the work that you do, and I'm going to try to close it out because
01:37:20 --> 01:37:23 I've really appreciated the time that you've given.
01:37:24 --> 01:37:29 Of work that you do is based on this concept of fiscal justice.
01:37:30 --> 01:37:35 And so I have a particular interest in Africa.
01:37:36 --> 01:37:44 And I know that in 1885, the Berlin conference happened and they wanted to divide
01:37:44 --> 01:37:47 the continent of African to European colonies.
01:37:47 --> 01:37:54 Ironically, the United States was a participant And they ended up getting nothing out of that deal.
01:37:54 --> 01:37:57 But a lot of the European nations did.
01:37:58 --> 01:38:03 And then after World War II, Africa began the process of decolonizing politically.
01:38:04 --> 01:38:08 But it's very apparent that the continent has never decolonized economically.
01:38:09 --> 01:38:17 And then you wrote this paper that was entitled Bandung Woods,
01:38:17 --> 01:38:23 and you had mentioned Bretton Woods, which basically said the United States, the U.S.
01:38:23 --> 01:38:28 Dollar is the standard that the economy, that's the agreement they came to near
01:38:28 --> 01:38:32 the end of World War II, that the U.S. dollar would be the standard that all
01:38:32 --> 01:38:35 other currencies or economies would be based on.
01:38:36 --> 01:38:43 So I guess I'm trying to combine a couple of questions in because I think that they can be done.
01:38:43 --> 01:38:49 Specifically, what can be done to move Africa from an extraction accumulation
01:38:49 --> 01:38:52 existence into a regeneration reparation one?
01:38:53 --> 01:39:01 And, you know, so what kind of public policy would be needed to end that and
01:39:01 --> 01:39:05 just to end global economic inequality as a whole?
01:39:06 --> 01:39:12 Thank you. Yes, indeed. I wrote a piece called Bonding Woods on essentially
01:39:13 --> 01:39:19 mapping out the contours of economic colonialism today, past the present.
01:39:19 --> 01:39:25 I was taking that historical view. But I also wrote a paper called Feminist Fiscal Justice.
01:39:26 --> 01:39:30 Well, the title is A Feminist Social Contract Rooted in Fiscal Justice,
01:39:30 --> 01:39:36 where I outlined eight feminist economics alternatives for intersectional justice that come from.
01:39:37 --> 01:39:43 Feminist political economy literature, where I think the way to understand it
01:39:43 --> 01:39:49 is I was really looking at the phenomenon of the naturalization of austerity
01:39:49 --> 01:39:51 regimes across the global South.
01:39:51 --> 01:39:57 I mean, across the world, around the world. But what distinguishes economic
01:39:57 --> 01:40:00 and fiscal austerity in the global South is that,
01:40:01 --> 01:40:07 most global South nations do not have welfare systems in place.
01:40:07 --> 01:40:10 They do not have welfare systems that are already in place.
01:40:10 --> 01:40:14 So when budget cuts hit the,
01:40:14 --> 01:40:20 health budget, the education budget, social protection, these budget cuts have,
01:40:20 --> 01:40:27 you know, particularly pernicious and devastating effects in the global South in essentially,
01:40:28 --> 01:40:35 eroding or eliminating public goods and public services that women and girls
01:40:35 --> 01:40:39 then de facto provide for free.
01:40:39 --> 01:40:43 So the idea of gendered austerity is one in which all.
01:40:44 --> 01:40:49 And girls become the shock absorbers of economic austerity.
01:40:49 --> 01:40:58 And as such, being shock absorbers, they take on the added burden of unpaid care work.
01:40:59 --> 01:41:07 Of low paid or exploitative informal sector work, of the health and education
01:41:07 --> 01:41:09 services that are not being provided by the state.
01:41:10 --> 01:41:15 So we really look at gendered austerity as the key channel through which austerity,
01:41:16 --> 01:41:19 is practiced in the global south in particular.
01:41:20 --> 01:41:25 But, you know, just as a caveat, austerity is a global phenomenon.
01:41:25 --> 01:41:31 Austerity is a naturalized regime of neoliberal late stage capitalism.
01:41:34 --> 01:41:42 It affects all parts of society and the way in which it is rationalized through the kind of,
01:41:43 --> 01:41:50 mythology construction of balanced budgets, balanced budgets being the imperative
01:41:50 --> 01:41:55 over and above the kinds of goods and services that create,
01:41:56 --> 01:42:04 economic dynamism, growth, jobs, trade, exchange, resilience,
01:42:04 --> 01:42:07 long-term viability, right?
01:42:08 --> 01:42:14 So this erosion of the understanding that investing in the social contract,
01:42:14 --> 01:42:21 investing in public goods, public services, the essential building blocks of human life,
01:42:21 --> 01:42:25 health, education, social protection, meaningful work.
01:42:28 --> 01:42:38 The erosion or the intentional obfuscation that the social contract is what generates long-term,
01:42:39 --> 01:42:47 resilience, strength, and growth, and that all the success stories we have today
01:42:47 --> 01:42:51 are built on the backs of the social contract, right?
01:42:51 --> 01:43:00 The United States, with all of its injustices and flaws is built on a social contract that produced,
01:43:00 --> 01:43:05 some viability of human life here, that it would generate, you know,
01:43:05 --> 01:43:09 the kind of innovation and technologies, the educational institutions.
01:43:10 --> 01:43:17 So fiscal justice is a consensus, right? It's a consensus that resists the austerity consensus.
01:43:17 --> 01:43:23 We position fiscal justice in direct confrontation, not as simple as opposition,
01:43:23 --> 01:43:28 but in confrontation to the austerity consensus, to redirect.
01:43:29 --> 01:43:37 Public investment, right? Public investment into public goods and public services
01:43:38 --> 01:43:42 that uphold intersectional equity.
01:43:42 --> 01:43:47 So gender, but also race and caste and class.
01:43:47 --> 01:43:54 Such a reorientation in the political governance frameworks is really about
01:43:54 --> 01:43:59 activating that importance of public, patient, and sustained financing.
01:43:59 --> 01:44:06 That is oriented towards regenerative returns over the long term, intergenerationally.
01:44:06 --> 01:44:09 And this requires a real sea change.
01:44:10 --> 01:44:15 It requires really confronting the short-termism of the financial sector.
01:44:15 --> 01:44:21 You know, capital is short-term. Capital flows move very short-term.
01:44:22 --> 01:44:24 They pretend that they are agnostic,
01:44:24 --> 01:44:28 that, you know, it is just the risk aversion and the profit motive.
01:44:28 --> 01:44:35 You know, it's not any kind of ideological agenda. It's really about the calculus of risk and profit.
01:44:36 --> 01:44:41 And there is some kind of a claim that goes on with sort of capital markets
01:44:41 --> 01:44:45 that this is not a belief system, that it's not ideological,
01:44:45 --> 01:44:49 that is simply, you know, agnostic calculus, right?
01:44:50 --> 01:44:54 So we have to confront that. We have to confront that. No, it is not agnostic.
01:44:55 --> 01:45:00 It is not void of ideology. It has real human implications.
01:45:02 --> 01:45:08 The way capital moves is, you know, just this assumption that supporting the
01:45:08 --> 01:45:15 social and care structures and economies of life, supporting a caring life that
01:45:15 --> 01:45:17 is rooted in well-being,
01:45:17 --> 01:45:20 you know, that can be outsourced,
01:45:21 --> 01:45:28 be, that is trickle down, or that will just come about naturally through capital
01:45:28 --> 01:45:32 accumulation and financial and economic accumulation.
01:45:32 --> 01:45:35 And accumulation is not growth. What we're seeing today with financial markets
01:45:35 --> 01:45:41 and big tech and oligarchy, that's not growth. That is not economic dynamism.
01:45:41 --> 01:45:47 That is monopoly accumulation. And let us remember that the kinds of public
01:45:47 --> 01:45:55 financing, that all of Silicon Valley and in fact, the incipient multinational corporations, the kind
01:45:55 --> 01:46:00 of financial assistance they receive from the public sector,
01:46:00 --> 01:46:06 the kind of infrastructure assistance from higher education institutions in
01:46:06 --> 01:46:07 science and research, the kind of infrastructure.
01:46:09 --> 01:46:15 That also part of the, you know, wasn't that part of how they came about,
01:46:15 --> 01:46:17 like part of their success story?
01:46:17 --> 01:46:24 They relied on public financial resources. They relied on a public contract, right?
01:46:24 --> 01:46:31 They explicitly relied on the provisioning, right? The provisioning.
01:46:34 --> 01:46:37 Of science and research, the provisioning of money resources,
01:46:38 --> 01:46:42 the provision of access to technologies, the provision of, you know,
01:46:42 --> 01:46:44 economic and firm leadership.
01:46:45 --> 01:46:50 So we are talking about provisioning for life, provisioning for care, right?
01:46:51 --> 01:46:56 So the fiscal justice is essentially an anti-austerity agenda,
01:46:57 --> 01:47:02 right, that connects to the social reproduction economies and to understand
01:47:02 --> 01:47:08 social reproduction as the processes that produce human beings.
01:47:09 --> 01:47:13 It's the infrastructure of life that produces human beings, the human beings
01:47:13 --> 01:47:16 that produce wealth, the human beings that produce capital, the human beings
01:47:16 --> 01:47:18 that produce economic value.
01:47:18 --> 01:47:21 Well, who produces those human beings?
01:47:21 --> 01:47:27 You know, what, what, from the time people come home from work to the time they
01:47:27 --> 01:47:28 go to work, what sustains them?
01:47:29 --> 01:47:37 The nourishment, the housing, the upbringing, and in fact, birthing is the social reproduction economy.
01:47:37 --> 01:47:43 So some of the ways forward, some of what we're calling for in the anti-austerity
01:47:43 --> 01:47:49 movement and economic justice movement is a real revamping of how fiscal policy
01:47:49 --> 01:47:51 works. Fiscal policy today can't.
01:47:52 --> 01:47:57 Be understood as a private-first policy. You know, let the private sector take
01:47:57 --> 01:48:02 care of everything, and only when they can't will we do public financing.
01:48:02 --> 01:48:07 So kind of reformulation of fiscal policy from private-first to public-first.
01:48:07 --> 01:48:13 And that means really shifting the understanding of balanced budgets and budget deficits.
01:48:14 --> 01:48:18 Historically speaking, there was an acceptance of fiscal activism.
01:48:19 --> 01:48:24 We saw fiscal activism during World War II. It was for war. It was for the production of arms.
01:48:25 --> 01:48:30 We saw fiscal activism during the Fordism era for creating manufactured goods
01:48:30 --> 01:48:32 and for building the companies.
01:48:32 --> 01:48:40 We see fiscal activism today in green technologies and in critical minerals for the tech boom.
01:48:41 --> 01:48:43 We see fiscal activism today for AI.
01:48:44 --> 01:48:47 In fact, fiscal activism is what made Musk.
01:48:47 --> 01:48:53 So we really want to revive this fiscal activism for intersectional equity, right?
01:48:54 --> 01:49:00 It's case in point that all sorts of progressive reformulations are made possible,
01:49:00 --> 01:49:05 you know, under the radar usually, for capital, you know.
01:49:06 --> 01:49:12 For powerful conglomerations, for intellectual monopolies, for monopoly capitalism,
01:49:12 --> 01:49:15 and for the concentrations of power. But
01:49:15 --> 01:49:20 not for the people, right? So again, also, we're talking about progressive taxation.
01:49:20 --> 01:49:24 We know in today's discourses, tax the billionaires, you know,
01:49:24 --> 01:49:26 it's become mainstream, thankfully.
01:49:27 --> 01:49:32 So progressive taxation, tax the billionaires, but also redistribute that tax
01:49:32 --> 01:49:38 revenue for intersectional equity and for public services and public goods for public resilience.
01:49:39 --> 01:49:43 And then we're talking about debt justice, from student debt to global South
01:49:43 --> 01:49:45 sovereign debt, particularly in Africa.
01:49:46 --> 01:49:51 Most African nations today are spending 48% of their budget revenue of their
01:49:51 --> 01:49:57 public money on average in repaying their debt because they have to bear the
01:49:57 --> 01:49:59 burden of such high interest rates.
01:49:59 --> 01:50:04 African nations have interest rates that are multiple times higher than interest
01:50:04 --> 01:50:08 rates in the rich countries and even interest rates in Asia.
01:50:08 --> 01:50:14 Why? Why? Is this not systemic racism built into the interest rate structure
01:50:14 --> 01:50:19 because we know how the calculus of risk works. The poorest countries are the
01:50:19 --> 01:50:21 riskiest countries, so they have the highest interest rates.
01:50:22 --> 01:50:26 Well, this results in a legacy of debt injustice.
01:50:27 --> 01:50:32 Where the poorest nations are spending the largest amount of their public money
01:50:33 --> 01:50:37 on repaying their richest creditors on the planet, right?
01:50:37 --> 01:50:42 Because private creditors have multiplied by an exponent of five times.
01:50:42 --> 01:50:48 There are five times more private creditors in the creditor mix today in sovereign debt contracts.
01:50:48 --> 01:50:54 It used to be a national creditor, state creditors, or multilateral creditors,
01:50:54 --> 01:50:55 institutional creditors.
01:50:55 --> 01:51:00 Today, it's private creditors. The Wall Street creditors have enormous power
01:51:00 --> 01:51:05 over the national economic policies of the So progressive taxation,
01:51:06 --> 01:51:09 debt justice, what are the ways forward for debt justice?
01:51:09 --> 01:51:14 A sovereign debt restructuring mechanism, a statutory mechanism akin to Chapter
01:51:14 --> 01:51:18 11 bankruptcy filing for the private sector.
01:51:19 --> 01:51:23 Like Chapter 11 exists for sovereigns. Why? The global South nations have been
01:51:23 --> 01:51:27 calling for a statutory sovereign debt restructuring mechanism,
01:51:28 --> 01:51:35 that includes all creditors, official, bilateral, private, and multilateral, that,
01:51:35 --> 01:51:38 does fair burden sharing, that is statutory,
01:51:39 --> 01:51:43 that abides by responsible lending and borrowing principles,
01:51:43 --> 01:51:49 that actively reduces the interest rate burden, that actively reduces the debt stock.
01:51:49 --> 01:51:56 This sort of mechanism does not exist. Global South countries have been calling for it since 1955.
01:51:56 --> 01:52:02 1955 calling for this one mechanism and the fact that there is no political
01:52:02 --> 01:52:09 will to yield really illustrates how central debt injustice is to.
01:52:10 --> 01:52:16 Late-stage capitalism to neoliberalism, it really, debt is the fulcrum.
01:52:16 --> 01:52:18 Sovereign debt is the fulcrum.
01:52:18 --> 01:52:24 And the resistance to really create institutions and processes that address sovereign debt,
01:52:24 --> 01:52:28 really shows the might, the sheer might of the financial sector,
01:52:28 --> 01:52:34 which is, I think, what I began with is that largesse of the financial sector.
01:52:34 --> 01:52:40 So fiscal justice is really about a kind of global, historical,
01:52:41 --> 01:52:44 systemic, economic justice, right?
01:52:44 --> 01:52:48 One that really nurtures life over capital,
01:52:49 --> 01:52:55 one that really creates infrastructures for care and nourishment and human thriving
01:52:55 --> 01:53:00 over and above monopolies and accumulation and power.
01:53:01 --> 01:53:08 Okay. So my challenge to all my guests this year has been to finish this sentence.
01:53:08 --> 01:53:10 I have hope because.
01:53:11 --> 01:53:13 Oh, great sentence.
01:53:15 --> 01:53:24 I would say that one of my primary sources of hope and resilience,
01:53:24 --> 01:53:26 what makes me get up in the morning.
01:53:26 --> 01:53:33 Is that there are young people leading social movements for,
01:53:34 --> 01:53:40 all variations of justice, from climate to economic to racial to feminist to
01:53:40 --> 01:53:43 indigenous to land back to ecological.
01:53:44 --> 01:53:46 And these movements are persisting.
01:53:47 --> 01:53:53 Despite all the odds, despite all the threats, the movements persist.
01:53:53 --> 01:53:58 And in fact, in the United States, the movements are also creating critical
01:53:58 --> 01:54:04 shifts in political representation and who gets into office, who's voted in.
01:54:05 --> 01:54:13 And I think there is a great possibility for progressive leaders in Congress,
01:54:13 --> 01:54:15 and that could really pave the way forward.
01:54:16 --> 01:54:21 So it's the social movements that are really keeping the flames alive.
01:54:22 --> 01:54:31 But I also have hope that as a global community, we are really unpacking and removing the veils.
01:54:32 --> 01:54:36 What we have always understood implicitly, we are now making clear.
01:54:37 --> 01:54:39 We're spelling out the structures.
01:54:39 --> 01:54:46 We're looking at the ways forward, the reformulations, the proposals, the alternatives.
01:54:48 --> 01:54:51 I mean, I refrain from saying solutions that makes it sound too easy,
01:54:51 --> 01:55:00 but the kinds of, you know, the kinds of change-making and transformations that can be possible.
01:55:00 --> 01:55:07 We're learning from history, right? We're learning from each other. And I think there is an,
01:55:08 --> 01:55:15 incredible wave that has been taking place on decolonizing, decolonizing ourselves,
01:55:15 --> 01:55:21 our diets, our economic systems, our relations, our worldviews, our conditioning.
01:55:22 --> 01:55:28 We talk about unlearning and relearning. You know, we talk about intersectionality,
01:55:28 --> 01:55:29 the power of disruption.
01:55:30 --> 01:55:37 I think the way forward is what is happening on the individual and the communal level.
01:55:38 --> 01:55:43 And I really have hope in social movements persisting because history shows
01:55:43 --> 01:55:48 us that these movements have been the main force of change-making.
01:55:49 --> 01:55:55 Well, Dr. Bhumika Muchhala, thank you for coming on.
01:55:55 --> 01:55:59 Outside of enrolling at the new school?
01:55:59 --> 01:56:05 How can people reach out to you? How can people tap into that magnificent brain of you?
01:56:06 --> 01:56:09 Reach me by email. I'm on LinkedIn.
01:56:10 --> 01:56:14 I apologize. I don't do social media. Might be a generational thing,
01:56:14 --> 01:56:17 but also I don't have the capacity for a lot of social media.
01:56:17 --> 01:56:23 So I'm not on Instagram, but I am on other, I am on X and well,
01:56:23 --> 01:56:25 that's problematic too. So I need to shift to blue sky speaking.
01:56:27 --> 01:56:30 But I think the best way to reach me is email. Honestly, the old school email,
01:56:30 --> 01:56:32 which I will share with you.
01:56:32 --> 01:56:39 But if I can spell it out here, it's my first name, period, my last name at gmail.com.
01:56:39 --> 01:56:49 So it's b-h-u-m-i-k-a, period, m-u-c-h-h-a-l-a at gmail.com.
01:56:49 --> 01:56:55 I am always happy to talk, to discourse, to exchange, to debate.
01:56:55 --> 01:56:58 I welcome critiques.
01:56:58 --> 01:57:02 I welcome contestations. It makes us stronger to consider other points of view
01:57:02 --> 01:57:05 and to rethink our own points of view.
01:57:06 --> 01:57:10 And thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.
01:57:11 --> 01:57:15 Thank you as well to the power and clarity of the questions you asked.
01:57:17 --> 01:57:21 I particularly appreciated that. Well, thank you again for coming on.
01:57:22 --> 01:57:26 I felt like I had re-enrolled in college myself listening to you talk.
01:57:26 --> 01:57:33 I think, you know, when I came across your profile and saw the work that you
01:57:33 --> 01:57:38 were doing, I felt that I wanted to put you on this platform.
01:57:40 --> 01:57:42 And allow you to reach my audience.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:49 And I hope that, like you said, a lot of the ideas are getting out there.
01:57:49 --> 01:57:57 And I really encourage you to continue to do what you do, as well as the listeners,
01:57:58 --> 01:57:59 to pay attention to what you're saying.
01:58:00 --> 01:58:05 One of the rules I have is that once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.
01:58:05 --> 01:58:10 So if there's something that you need to discuss, please, please,
01:58:10 --> 01:58:13 please reach out to me and we'll get you on to talk about it.
01:58:13 --> 01:58:16 So, Doc, thank you again for doing it.
01:58:17 --> 01:58:23 Thank you. Thank you, Eric, for providing space for these issues,
01:58:23 --> 01:58:27 for uplifting such critical points of view.
01:58:28 --> 01:58:33 These spaces are rare and I treasure them and I salute you and thank you for,
01:58:33 --> 01:58:39 making this happen, for having your podcast and for embracing more critical
01:58:40 --> 01:58:41 ways of seeing the world.
01:58:41 --> 01:58:45 Yes, ma'am. All right, guys, and we're going to catch you all on the other side.
01:59:06 --> 01:59:12 And so now it is time for my next guest, Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan.
01:59:13 --> 01:59:17 Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan are managing partners of the Dagoba Group,
01:59:18 --> 01:59:23 a global consulting firm advancing inclusive leadership, employee well-being,
01:59:23 --> 01:59:25 and organizational culture.
01:59:25 --> 01:59:31 They are also the authors of The Inclusion Dividend, perennial bestseller leveraged
01:59:31 --> 01:59:39 in corporate and academic classrooms worldwide, as well as Set for Inclusion and The Golden Apple.
01:59:40 --> 01:59:45 Their work has been featured by Harvard Business Review, Forbes,
01:59:45 --> 01:59:48 and Fast Company, and they live in New England.
01:59:48 --> 01:59:51 But we're going to be talking about another book that they have written called
01:59:51 --> 01:59:53 The Parenthood Advantage.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:58 So ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as guests
01:59:58 --> 02:00:02 on this podcast, Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan.
02:00:15 --> 02:00:20 And Mark Kaplan. How y'all doing? Doing well. Thank you for having us here.
02:00:20 --> 02:00:22 Absolutely great. Thanks, Eric.
02:00:22 --> 02:00:25 Well, it's good to have y'all here. As we're recording this,
02:00:25 --> 02:00:31 we're getting ready to celebrate 250 years of American independence.
02:00:31 --> 02:00:37 And what y'all are embarking in, what we're going to be talking about is total opposite of that.
02:00:37 --> 02:00:41 Because we're going to be talking about parenthood.
02:00:41 --> 02:00:44 Y'all have written this book called The Parenthood Advantage.
02:00:44 --> 02:00:48 And so I want to get into that a little bit. But before I do that,
02:00:48 --> 02:00:54 I want to do a couple of icebreakers. I usually start off the interviews that
02:00:54 --> 02:00:57 way. And so the first icebreaker is a quote.
02:00:57 --> 02:01:00 And either one of you can answer this one.
02:01:01 --> 02:01:06 Work is a rubber ball. If you drop it, it will bounce back.
02:01:06 --> 02:01:11 The other four balls, family, health, friends, integrity are made of glass.
02:01:13 --> 02:01:17 Well, you know, my first reaction to that is I get the I get the part about
02:01:17 --> 02:01:25 about work bouncing back and I understand how fragile those other aspects of my life are.
02:01:25 --> 02:01:30 On the other hand, when I think about how I all the little mistakes I make day
02:01:30 --> 02:01:34 to day, I'm glad that there is an aspect of my family life that does bounce
02:01:34 --> 02:01:39 back because, you know what I mean? It's like no one's a boy.
02:01:39 --> 02:01:44 Have I learned this in the last two years? You know, no one is perfect at being
02:01:44 --> 02:01:47 a parent and no one is perfect at balancing all these things.
02:01:47 --> 02:01:51 And so it's tough if they're glass, because, you know, we're all going to make
02:01:51 --> 02:01:54 a little mistake, even if they're just little mistakes. We're all going to make
02:01:54 --> 02:01:55 mistakes. You know what I mean?
02:01:55 --> 02:02:00 Yeah. Yeah, Mark. I definitely understand that. All right. So Mason,
02:02:00 --> 02:02:06 since Mark asked, answered the quote, I want you to play a game called 20 questions.
02:02:07 --> 02:02:11 All right. So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. 13.
02:02:12 --> 02:02:18 All right. Do you think there is such a thing as unbiased news or media and why?
02:02:19 --> 02:02:25 No, I think we're all humans are biased. It's just natural for us to be biased.
02:02:25 --> 02:02:29 And that's what we work on to become aware of those biases.
02:02:29 --> 02:02:33 And they're not always bad. Sometimes they can be positive biases.
02:02:33 --> 02:02:36 Sometimes we automatically give a positive bias to somebody because they walk
02:02:36 --> 02:02:41 into a room, or maybe it's a tall male, we just assume they have leadership
02:02:41 --> 02:02:43 skills or they play really well at basketball.
02:02:44 --> 02:02:46 Is that our biases connect in there? Yeah.
02:02:47 --> 02:02:53 Yeah, it's we're all biased. So, no, there's news or humans and there is always
02:02:53 --> 02:02:57 a little bit of bias and all sometimes there's conscious bias in that because
02:02:57 --> 02:03:01 they're trying to really influence a particular group of individuals.
02:03:01 --> 02:03:04 And so the news is slanted for them. Okay.
02:03:05 --> 02:03:09 All right. So, Mark, I guess I'll start with you on this question, because,
02:03:10 --> 02:03:15 you know, we ever since we just, you know, set this interview up,
02:03:15 --> 02:03:20 something happened with Pete Buttigieg, the former secretary of transportation.
02:03:20 --> 02:03:25 He was swatted and he had to go through child protective services,
02:03:25 --> 02:03:27 interviews and all that with his child.
02:03:28 --> 02:03:38 And what did how did you all feel about that? How did that hit you all being parents?
02:03:39 --> 02:03:42 Well, I like the way you asked the question, because my first reaction to that
02:03:42 --> 02:03:47 was it felt like I kind of felt it in my gut. I mean, obviously,
02:03:47 --> 02:03:48 I don't know Pete Buttigieg.
02:03:49 --> 02:03:52 And I think I reacted differently than I would have before we had kids.
02:03:53 --> 02:03:57 The first thought, just the first emotion was just, oh, my God,
02:03:57 --> 02:04:00 if someone did that to me, how would I feel?
02:04:00 --> 02:04:07 And it was, gosh, it's kind of paralyzing in a certain sense to think about it, right?
02:04:07 --> 02:04:09 That someone suddenly steps in and takes control.
02:04:10 --> 02:04:13 And then when you read so that was my first reaction and then when you read
02:04:13 --> 02:04:19 about the context of that and the obvious political targeting you know i think
02:04:19 --> 02:04:23 it's probably political and probably his sexual orientation as well frankly,
02:04:24 --> 02:04:31 that someone would invade you know his his family space like that it's just
02:04:31 --> 02:04:35 it was so offensive to me and then so after i went shocked i got really angry
02:04:35 --> 02:04:37 about it honestly and i felt,
02:04:38 --> 02:04:41 just horrible i i That to me is just...
02:04:42 --> 02:04:48 You when you when you're a parent like there's really i know this sounds cliche
02:04:48 --> 02:04:52 but i mean there's just nothing more precious than your relationship with your kids,
02:04:52 --> 02:04:57 and so to violate that with somebody even if you really strongly disagree with
02:04:57 --> 02:04:59 them that's just horrible and.
02:04:59 --> 02:05:05 And the i guess the the child protective services were kind of doing what they
02:05:05 --> 02:05:08 had to do under their policy but on the other hand it's sort of like,
02:05:08 --> 02:05:12 this was pretty shady right from the start wasn't there a different way to handle
02:05:12 --> 02:05:17 that but you know that stuff i'm not an expert in you know i i don't know but
02:05:17 --> 02:05:20 so i had all those reactions in a fairly short period of time actually,
02:05:21 --> 02:05:26 yeah mason did you want to chime in on that or you're good yeah it's first that
02:05:26 --> 02:05:30 yeah the child's protective services is this if this is the path they take we
02:05:30 --> 02:05:34 want them to protect children first and foremost that mean regardless of who the parent is,
02:05:35 --> 02:05:39 if this is the path they would have taken with any other individual,
02:05:39 --> 02:05:41 okay, fine, we'll go through this.
02:05:41 --> 02:05:46 It's from what I hear, it was an anonymous person talking about a third party
02:05:46 --> 02:05:49 of something happened years ago. That was my understanding.
02:05:49 --> 02:05:54 So it felt very watered down, but it sounded like it was handled well by Pete
02:05:54 --> 02:05:57 Buttigieg's family. He waited for his partner to show up.
02:05:58 --> 02:06:01 He then left, went through the process, allowed everything to take place.
02:06:01 --> 02:06:07 But yeah, it's scary to think as a parent that anybody can call in and separate you from your children.
02:06:08 --> 02:06:13 That, to me, that point of something that's just anonymous and for any grievance
02:06:13 --> 02:06:17 they have for you and allow themselves to be anonymous to do that.
02:06:17 --> 02:06:19 So that's a part that I had a lot of contention with.
02:06:20 --> 02:06:22 Yeah, I just know.
02:06:23 --> 02:06:27 Be, I think, I think that the secretary handled it pretty well,
02:06:27 --> 02:06:30 considering the fact that he even had the composure to write about it.
02:06:30 --> 02:06:37 I don't, I, I would be so angry if somebody did that to me, but I just,
02:06:37 --> 02:06:41 I just wanted to get y'all's take on it because y'all, y'all have a unique perspective,
02:06:42 --> 02:06:45 on that as compared to a lot of other folks.
02:06:45 --> 02:06:49 All right. So let's talk about this book, The Parenthood Advantage.
02:06:49 --> 02:06:52 What motivated y'all to write this book? Mason, I'll start with you.
02:06:53 --> 02:06:57 Yeah, a number of factors. So we've been in the field of behavioral management
02:06:57 --> 02:07:02 for a long time, speaking to inclusive management and work-life balance.
02:07:02 --> 02:07:08 And we would hear during our work, we would hear parents bring up issues.
02:07:08 --> 02:07:13 So our work was never fully focused on working parents, but they'll bring up
02:07:13 --> 02:07:19 issues because obviously we know work-life balance is a huge issue for working parents.
02:07:19 --> 02:07:24 Inclusion, things that we talk about, how do we make sure working parents are included?
02:07:24 --> 02:07:28 And all the issues, especially with women, that was happening to their career
02:07:28 --> 02:07:30 when they became a mother.
02:07:30 --> 02:07:34 Very unconsciously, we bring it back, that bias that we talked about earlier
02:07:34 --> 02:07:35 in the conversation today. Yeah.
02:07:36 --> 02:07:40 But it was one of those things, until you do it, you don't fully understand
02:07:40 --> 02:07:44 it. So we can understand it conceptually. But when we became parents and we
02:07:44 --> 02:07:48 became working parents and understanding the stress and what was going on,
02:07:48 --> 02:07:49 we started sharing these stories.
02:07:50 --> 02:07:55 So our kids are born prematurely, going through the IC, the neonatal unit,
02:07:55 --> 02:08:00 the NICU, and spending six weeks there and doing the shifts there.
02:08:00 --> 02:08:03 And then also trying to struggle to maintain work.
02:08:03 --> 02:08:06 At the same time, we started talking to other parents there.
02:08:06 --> 02:08:09 And that grew to stories and we started sharing our stories with
02:08:09 --> 02:08:14 with our clients and then stories just started coming everywhere when we sat
02:08:14 --> 02:08:18 down at the restaurants or we're in line and we started talking everybody had
02:08:18 --> 02:08:20 a story like there's something here to share,
02:08:20 --> 02:08:25 and that's what really started this book was everybody else's stories ours was
02:08:25 --> 02:08:30 our own story to you know open our eyes up wider but it was everybody else's
02:08:30 --> 02:08:34 story that came on and we just applied what we were already working on,
02:08:35 --> 02:08:40 with this lens and leveraging other stories to write this book to help those
02:08:40 --> 02:08:44 working parents and also help the corporate manager to create,
02:08:45 --> 02:08:48 a better culture for working parents. Yeah.
02:08:48 --> 02:08:55 Mark, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 27 percent of private
02:08:55 --> 02:08:58 sector employees have access to pay parental leave.
02:08:58 --> 02:09:02 How has this created issues in the American workforce?
02:09:02 --> 02:09:07 Oh, I think it creates all kinds of issues for all kinds of people. There's...
02:09:09 --> 02:09:15 When you when you have to make decisions about how to manage your time and what
02:09:15 --> 02:09:20 you're weighing is what's best for your children and what you have to do to pay your mortgage,
02:09:21 --> 02:09:24 that's or or your rent or get food.
02:09:24 --> 02:09:28 Right. Like, do we really want to have people making those decisions all the
02:09:28 --> 02:09:31 time when we just look around the world and see that there's a way to do this
02:09:31 --> 02:09:35 differently that works for families and actually everybody benefits from?
02:09:35 --> 02:09:39 So you look at something like that and you say, well, that's going to hit most people pretty hard.
02:09:39 --> 02:09:43 But then if you do a cut around socioeconomic class on that,
02:09:43 --> 02:09:48 you see where it lands even hardest, which is among people who who usually get
02:09:48 --> 02:09:52 less of the benefits of of policy, you know, policies that are in place.
02:09:52 --> 02:09:57 There are some good policies in place, right? It's not awful all the time,
02:09:57 --> 02:10:02 but you look at who really has the bigger burden, and that's the folks.
02:10:03 --> 02:10:08 Who may not have the resources to work out something in between where they can
02:10:08 --> 02:10:13 maybe take some unpaid time and kind of manage to give their kids what they
02:10:13 --> 02:10:16 really want to give them, which to me would be,
02:10:16 --> 02:10:21 at least three months, but preferably six months or more, right? So I think it just...
02:10:22 --> 02:10:26 It's bad for families. It's bad for parents and it's bad for kids.
02:10:26 --> 02:10:29 And and what we found in our research, and I'm sure we'll talk more about this.
02:10:29 --> 02:10:31 It's not good for companies either.
02:10:32 --> 02:10:39 Right. It's really not. You know, this book is we're trying to flip on its head a little bit.
02:10:40 --> 02:10:44 The basic assumption that companies, I think, have made most of the time,
02:10:44 --> 02:10:46 which is that when people, when their employees
02:10:47 --> 02:10:50 get pregnant and usually they're thinking consciously or unconsciously about
02:10:50 --> 02:10:53 their women employees, that it's a problem for the company and they have to
02:10:53 --> 02:10:56 figure out how to manage this problem and minimize its impact.
02:10:56 --> 02:10:59 What we found is that the opposite is true.
02:11:00 --> 02:11:04 If you think about this fully, then it's an opportunity for everybody.
02:11:04 --> 02:11:10 It's because how a company handles this, what a parent brings into the workplace,
02:11:11 --> 02:11:16 once they become a parent, the skills they learn, the commitment that they increase,
02:11:17 --> 02:11:19 the way they engage at work is different.
02:11:19 --> 02:11:22 And that's the company benefits from that. So we really we're trying to flip
02:11:22 --> 02:11:27 that sort of first reaction of like, oh, you know, parenthood is a problem that
02:11:27 --> 02:11:30 the company has to solve because we don't think that's the case at all.
02:11:30 --> 02:11:32 And we and our research shows that.
02:11:33 --> 02:11:39 Mason, what is it about American culture that has us lagging behind our European
02:11:39 --> 02:11:40 counterparts on this issue?
02:11:41 --> 02:11:46 Yeah, it's interesting because nationally there is no legislation that requires paid leave.
02:11:47 --> 02:11:50 And in all the other developed countries, there is.
02:11:51 --> 02:11:57 So America is fractured. It's state by state. Even at the state level, it's very weak.
02:11:58 --> 02:12:02 And there seems to be all the talk from both parties about being pro-parent.
02:12:02 --> 02:12:04 We want to take care of these working parents.
02:12:05 --> 02:12:11 There is lack of any action to do that. Now, some states are starting to put
02:12:11 --> 02:12:15 some policies in place and sort of patchwork policies.
02:12:16 --> 02:12:21 And it's, you know, it's a paradox because we talk about how important it is.
02:12:21 --> 02:12:27 Companies talk how important it is, but there's no action a lot of times to,
02:12:27 --> 02:12:29 require a systemic approach.
02:12:30 --> 02:12:34 Now, this is a place where corporations are ahead of U.S. legislation.
02:12:35 --> 02:12:39 So a lot of corporations who are giving paid leave, they're not required to do that.
02:12:39 --> 02:12:43 And as you talk about the percent of those that get paid leave,
02:12:43 --> 02:12:47 realize that this is really, ones that are getting paid leave are almost solely
02:12:47 --> 02:12:49 in the white-collar jobs.
02:12:49 --> 02:12:54 Hourly jobs, there's very few companies out there that hourly jobs provide paid leave.
02:12:54 --> 02:12:59 Now, FMLA, which is the Family Medical Leave Act, is the only national act,
02:12:59 --> 02:13:05 national legislation that says you need to give leave to mothers who have given birth.
02:13:06 --> 02:13:10 It's unpaid. I think it's six to 12 weeks. It requires you, the company,
02:13:10 --> 02:13:13 to be a certain size, means they have to be over a certain number of employees.
02:13:13 --> 02:13:17 And the employee had to be working there for a certain period of time before
02:13:17 --> 02:13:19 that company is required to do that. Yeah.
02:13:20 --> 02:13:24 There's such a lack. There's such a lack of where we are in a cohesive approach,
02:13:24 --> 02:13:30 which is interesting because both parties say and talk how it's so important.
02:13:30 --> 02:13:35 And so this should be an easy win to go and have required pay leave or some
02:13:35 --> 02:13:38 kind of program that's systemic that pays for that.
02:13:38 --> 02:13:42 So we're waiting. But right now, that's why we wrote this book,
02:13:42 --> 02:13:47 is to help companies to get here and create that. It's beyond just paid leave.
02:13:47 --> 02:13:51 There's all those support services that we talk about in the book that you can
02:13:51 --> 02:13:53 do to support the working parent.
02:13:53 --> 02:14:01 Yeah, because I worked for Fulton County Sheriff's Office here in Atlanta for a time.
02:14:01 --> 02:14:06 And we did a variation of FMLA where it was paid.
02:14:06 --> 02:14:12 So, you know, it was like and if we got hurt, we would qualify under FMLA, too.
02:14:12 --> 02:14:17 Too, but it all depends. If we got hurt on the job, we had to get workers comp.
02:14:17 --> 02:14:21 But if we got hurt outside of the job and could not do our job,
02:14:21 --> 02:14:26 then we qualify for FMLA, which was better because we got our full check.
02:14:27 --> 02:14:31 Oh, nice. Yeah. It was like with workers comp, you only get like two thirds
02:14:31 --> 02:14:34 or whatever, but that- You're working in the local grocery store?
02:14:34 --> 02:14:37 That's not going to happen. The local restaurant, cleaners, you name it,
02:14:37 --> 02:14:41 that's not going to happen. Yeah. Not in my current job. It's like the officers,
02:14:41 --> 02:14:46 they don't get paid leave. So Mark...
02:14:47 --> 02:14:52 Yes. Your question is, studies have shown that employees tend to be more productive,
02:14:53 --> 02:14:55 during their early parenting years.
02:14:55 --> 02:15:00 What skills do they develop that make them better employees slash leaders?
02:15:03 --> 02:15:06 I love that question because I'm going to need Mason's help,
02:15:06 --> 02:15:10 I think, because there's so many things that change and there's so many things you get better at.
02:15:10 --> 02:15:14 And when you become a parent, and this is stuff that I sort of thought about
02:15:15 --> 02:15:17 kind of theoretically before I had kids.
02:15:18 --> 02:15:21 Because I have a certain style, you know, I'm not really structured,
02:15:21 --> 02:15:24 you know, I don't like, I don't like a lot of order. I don't always get things
02:15:24 --> 02:15:28 done in time. Mason could spend the rest of the podcast telling you all about that.
02:15:28 --> 02:15:35 But you know, when you have these kids who have to be fed and you know,
02:15:35 --> 02:15:40 we're, we're, we're believers in like, like structured sleep and,
02:15:40 --> 02:15:44 like, we think they do, our kids do much better when we do everything at the same time.
02:15:44 --> 02:15:48 So you, you have to like you got to really get,
02:15:48 --> 02:15:53 organized the other thing is that you know you have to multitask you got to
02:15:53 --> 02:15:59 get really good at doing multiple things at once you you learn how to be a better prioritizer
02:15:59 --> 02:16:04 because there's the things that must be done right now you know when when there's a diaper emergency,
02:16:05 --> 02:16:08 you know like that has to be you don't have any time you got to deal with that
02:16:08 --> 02:16:12 right now so it's it's like i mean i'm joking a little bit but i think you know
02:16:12 --> 02:16:14 i'm not also You develop all these skills.
02:16:14 --> 02:16:18 And even if, you know, I thought about this more afterwards –.
02:16:19 --> 02:16:24 Myself, I have become more present in general, right?
02:16:24 --> 02:16:28 Because with your kids, you kind of, not only do you sort of have to be present,
02:16:28 --> 02:16:32 I think, to pay attention to what's going on, but you really want to be present,
02:16:33 --> 02:16:37 because you see quickly how fast they grow and you don't want to be sitting
02:16:37 --> 02:16:40 there scrolling on your phone while your kids are learning, you know,
02:16:40 --> 02:16:43 how to climb up a little thing in the playroom or something.
02:16:43 --> 02:16:50 You know what I mean? So presence, I would also say assess risk differently now.
02:16:50 --> 02:16:54 Like I walk into a situation and I look for what might be dangerous.
02:16:54 --> 02:16:59 So that's a short list, Eric. I'm sure Mason would add, but I think it's a lot of stuff.
02:16:59 --> 02:17:05 Yeah. When we started beyond the interviews of individuals, we did over 200
02:17:05 --> 02:17:08 interviews for the book. We did a deep data dive and we found there's so much
02:17:08 --> 02:17:13 research out there that's coming out that have shown that parents are after they become parents.
02:17:14 --> 02:17:18 They specifically looked a lot at women. And women are better at multitaskers,
02:17:18 --> 02:17:20 better at prioritizing, better, more efficient.
02:17:21 --> 02:17:25 But then we get stories from everybody we answered, we interviewed.
02:17:25 --> 02:17:30 And one of the questions we always asked is, did parents becoming a parent make
02:17:30 --> 02:17:33 you a better employee or worse or the same?
02:17:34 --> 02:17:38 And resoundingly, 100%, everybody said it made them a better employee.
02:17:38 --> 02:17:40 And then we asked, how, why? How did it make it?
02:17:41 --> 02:17:43 And we got these stories that came out. You know what?
02:17:44 --> 02:17:47 Like Mark says, I'm a type A personality. It's sort of like we have things,
02:17:47 --> 02:17:52 we put them in boxes. We have this is a structure and this is how we go forward.
02:17:53 --> 02:18:00 That I had far less empathy and sort of the people management skills or more
02:18:00 --> 02:18:03 sort of a type A, you know, A to B C.
02:18:03 --> 02:18:08 But with children, it can't happen the way you have to manage the tangents.
02:18:08 --> 02:18:13 You have to manage, you know, things that they just are not understanding what's going on.
02:18:14 --> 02:18:18 So you have to breathe and stop and do the things we teach about and work-life
02:18:18 --> 02:18:19 balance. But in the moment.
02:18:20 --> 02:18:23 It allows you to transfer those skills to employees as well.
02:18:23 --> 02:18:26 So we don't, in the book, we don't say, hey, changing baby's diapers is really
02:18:26 --> 02:18:31 going to give you those skills in the workplace.
02:18:31 --> 02:18:36 But what we're saying is that that tract is going in your mind over and over
02:18:36 --> 02:18:40 again. For example, ask anybody that's brought a child, especially infant child,
02:18:40 --> 02:18:42 to a doctor's what they need to do.
02:18:42 --> 02:18:45 So when you're bringing a child to a doctor, normally you're packing the baby
02:18:45 --> 02:18:49 bag, make sure everything's extra oh and they might be late so we better we better have a snack
02:18:50 --> 02:18:53 and oh here's all the things i need a question ask them when i go to the doctors
02:18:53 --> 02:18:56 and when we're there it's a whole long list and when we come back i have to
02:18:56 --> 02:18:59 make sure that the nap time's ready or the bottle's ready whatever it is.
02:18:59 --> 02:19:03 And what happens you're constantly doing that for everything you're doing you're
02:19:03 --> 02:19:07 you're building this track so one of the people we we interviewed was the ceo
02:19:07 --> 02:19:12 and she said well you know i had five employees i'm a few years back she
02:19:12 --> 02:19:15 wasn't a mother at the time and three and they're all happened to be all women
02:19:16 --> 02:19:20 and the the three they're all managers and three managers when i would give
02:19:20 --> 02:19:25 them tasks they already started planning them out and she goes wow they're just really good employees.
02:19:26 --> 02:19:29 She goes a few years later i became a mother and i thought about it and went
02:19:29 --> 02:19:33 back and realized those three people those three women were mothers and other
02:19:33 --> 02:19:36 two were not it doesn't mean the other two were not mothers weren't good employees
02:19:36 --> 02:19:39 but their mothers were forced to build this track everything was,
02:19:40 --> 02:19:43 put in front of them they had to start creating that process.
02:19:43 --> 02:19:46 Okay, what's A, what's B, what's more, what's more important than the other one?
02:19:46 --> 02:19:52 So it creates this skillset that is very easily transferable,
02:19:52 --> 02:19:58 the empathy, the organization, the prioritization, all that is transferable to the workplace.
02:19:58 --> 02:20:01 And that's what's happening. That's what the data shows. And there's more and
02:20:01 --> 02:20:05 more data comes out like that. And that's what we heard in every single interview.
02:20:05 --> 02:20:09 Yeah. All right. Now I got to flip a coin who I'm going to ask this question
02:20:09 --> 02:20:12 too. All right, Mason, we'll go with you.
02:20:12 --> 02:20:19 Almost 70% of LGBTQ plus parents are concerned that taking parental leave would
02:20:19 --> 02:20:22 negatively impact their job or career.
02:20:23 --> 02:20:28 How would you advise a couple from that community to navigate that fear of discrimination and judgment?
02:20:30 --> 02:20:35 I would add on to that, what we found too is regardless of your sexual orientation.
02:20:37 --> 02:20:42 Both parents have a fear of that, that it's going to negatively impact their career.
02:20:42 --> 02:20:45 It's less so with the father. Often with the father, there's what we call a
02:20:45 --> 02:20:50 fatherhood bonus that plays out, except when the father actually takes the full leap.
02:20:51 --> 02:20:54 When the father, even a heterosexual father takes the full leap,
02:20:54 --> 02:20:58 there is a career impact, and we've seen it in studies that have shown that.
02:20:58 --> 02:21:02 So what we we say in the book we talk about this like how when you know you're
02:21:02 --> 02:21:05 expecting what are some things you should do so we get we get very granular
02:21:05 --> 02:21:08 and and logistics based the first thing is
02:21:08 --> 02:21:12 talk to your manager when you feel compounded but that that's not just hey i'm
02:21:12 --> 02:21:17 expecting a child because what often will happen they'll say oh congratulations go to hr,
02:21:17 --> 02:21:22 and that's where it stops it ends what it should be is hey i'm expecting child
02:21:22 --> 02:21:26 i really like this is a good time for us to talk about my career path.
02:21:27 --> 02:21:29 Let's set aside a time. I'm going to go to, I know I have to go to HR,
02:21:29 --> 02:21:34 Phyllis and Forum, but let's set aside a time for us to talk about that transition,
02:21:34 --> 02:21:38 how I can transition my job's responsibility during the time I will be on leave.
02:21:38 --> 02:21:40 This is the time I expect to take leave.
02:21:40 --> 02:21:44 And then what it looks like when I come back. So we want you to start talking
02:21:44 --> 02:21:47 about your returnship before you even leave.
02:21:47 --> 02:21:49 We want you to start talking about that because that's important.
02:21:50 --> 02:21:53 And it lets the manager know that you're committed, that you're committed to
02:21:53 --> 02:21:56 stay, you committed to go, and also you create that career path.
02:21:56 --> 02:22:00 That is your responsibility. Not every manager is going to be helpful.
02:22:01 --> 02:22:04 It's a good chance you're not going to have a great manager out there.
02:22:04 --> 02:22:08 The stats are shown to help effectively manage your leave.
02:22:08 --> 02:22:11 So everybody says, as an employee, you have to manage your own career.
02:22:11 --> 02:22:16 Well, guess what? You also have to manage your own leave and make sure it's structured well.
02:22:16 --> 02:22:21 Talk about it, what it means, How effective and what are things that you can put in place,
02:22:22 --> 02:22:28 to make sure it's a strong return and this makes you a better employee and a
02:22:28 --> 02:22:32 stronger relationship with that employee, regardless of your sexual orientation.
02:22:33 --> 02:22:39 Let me can I add on to that, Erik? The statistic you quoted is a pretty powerful
02:22:39 --> 02:22:41 statistic, and I can certainly relate to it.
02:22:42 --> 02:22:46 But it's funny when you asked it, I thought of a conversation I had about this
02:22:46 --> 02:22:52 has been a good 20 years with a woman who was in an inclusive leadership workshop that I was conducting.
02:22:53 --> 02:23:00 And we got into the topic of sexual orientation and she said that she she she
02:23:00 --> 02:23:04 and her partner wanted to have children and she was going to be the one who
02:23:04 --> 02:23:08 would physically would become pregnant and give birth physically to the child,
02:23:08 --> 02:23:11 and she said that,
02:23:11 --> 02:23:16 she felt that in her organization people would not accept that very well it
02:23:16 --> 02:23:18 could be it could be a career problem for her,
02:23:19 --> 02:23:22 And I remember in that moment Because you sort of want to, you know.
02:23:24 --> 02:23:28 Well, I like to think the best of people. I know that's a little naive at times,
02:23:28 --> 02:23:31 but I just felt like what a horrible dilemma, right?
02:23:32 --> 02:23:36 That this woman was in. She was sort of choosing between her job,
02:23:36 --> 02:23:39 which was an important job for her to have.
02:23:39 --> 02:23:44 She's a woman in a company 20, 25 years ago, you know, and it was a good job.
02:23:44 --> 02:23:47 And so she's got to choose between that and whether she wants to have kids or
02:23:47 --> 02:23:50 not. Because if she has kids, then she's going, she wasn't, I should have added,
02:23:50 --> 02:23:52 she was not out to her colleagues, right?
02:23:52 --> 02:23:56 But if she was going to get pregnant, then, you know, you're going to be out
02:23:56 --> 02:23:58 of the closet at some point. You can't really keep that hidden.
02:23:58 --> 02:24:03 So when I think about that and where we are now, I think we've made a lot of
02:24:03 --> 02:24:06 progress on the one hand, right? Like.
02:24:08 --> 02:24:11 On the other hand, I think people may make different assumptions if you're a
02:24:11 --> 02:24:12 same-sex couple, right?
02:24:12 --> 02:24:18 They may make different assumptions about, well, and they might even be well-intended
02:24:18 --> 02:24:21 questions or assumptions, sort of like they want to know, well, how are you doing this?
02:24:21 --> 02:24:27 And, you know, are you using a surrogate? So people may be curious and they
02:24:27 --> 02:24:29 may not see you in the same way.
02:24:29 --> 02:24:35 I think these days, some of what this woman 20 or 25 years ago would have described
02:24:35 --> 02:24:42 as not just unconscious bias, but conscious bias has probably shifted to mostly unconscious bias.
02:24:42 --> 02:24:46 So you still I think you still have stuff to manage and you still don't know
02:24:46 --> 02:24:48 how your employer might react.
02:24:48 --> 02:24:53 And you still don't have control over what people really think who make decisions that affect your life.
02:24:53 --> 02:25:00 But I would also say we're making progress over time. And these are times in
02:25:00 --> 02:25:05 which sometimes we're not always clear that we've made any progress, right?
02:25:05 --> 02:25:09 But I think if you step back, Mason said earlier, companies often lead on this
02:25:09 --> 02:25:12 stuff, right? They lead society, not always, right?
02:25:13 --> 02:25:19 I mean, I think the army Was really, really led on Racial diversity in this country Right? But.
02:25:20 --> 02:25:23 Of other aspects of diversity, it was really companies who led.
02:25:23 --> 02:25:27 And I think when it comes to sexual orientation, it's companies who lead.
02:25:27 --> 02:25:32 So, you know, I look at the glass as half full, but that doesn't mean there's no challenges.
02:25:33 --> 02:25:35 You know, I mean, that's how I think about it.
02:25:36 --> 02:25:38 Well, Mark, I'm going to stay with you on this question.
02:25:39 --> 02:25:44 Excuse me. Black women face significant disparities in access to pay parental
02:25:44 --> 02:25:48 leave, with 55% of their parental leaves being unpaid.
02:25:49 --> 02:25:53 They are less likely to have access to employer-provided pay leave,
02:25:53 --> 02:25:56 often working in lower wage or part-time positions.
02:25:57 --> 02:26:01 This lack of coverage creates economic instability, as Black women often serve
02:26:01 --> 02:26:06 as primary breadwinners, resulting in shorter leave times and increased risks
02:26:06 --> 02:26:08 to maternal and infant health.
02:26:09 --> 02:26:13 So my question to you is, what do you think should be done to improve this?
02:26:14 --> 02:26:18 Well, I mean, I'm going to speak not as a policy expert, per se.
02:26:18 --> 02:26:22 You know, I'm not a public policy expert. But I think what you're describing
02:26:22 --> 02:26:28 is the way inequitability gets built into a structure. Right.
02:26:28 --> 02:26:34 And so even if no one intended for black women to have a worst experience because
02:26:34 --> 02:26:37 of all these other factors, that's just the way it plays out structurally.
02:26:37 --> 02:26:44 So I think sometimes, I mean, you can address it as a company by having policies
02:26:44 --> 02:26:48 that you don't tilt towards people who are in more senior roles potentially.
02:26:50 --> 02:26:55 Or in different roles. And I think also this is where the government can have
02:26:55 --> 02:27:03 a big impact by by by having policies that apply equitably across all groups and and,
02:27:03 --> 02:27:08 and remove some of these sort of structural barriers that get in place for people.
02:27:08 --> 02:27:12 I mean, I think you can't, if you're going to try to deal with inequity,
02:27:12 --> 02:27:18 you can't do it on a sort of case by case or ad hoc basis.
02:27:18 --> 02:27:23 There has to be something bigger that sort of sets at least a basic standard for people.
02:27:23 --> 02:27:31 I mean, I think in my opinion, this is why having more inclusive federal policies
02:27:31 --> 02:27:34 would really be helpful when it comes to parental leave because it would cover everybody.
02:27:34 --> 02:27:38 It doesn't make every barrier go away, but it certainly helps.
02:27:38 --> 02:27:43 I'd like to add on a societal concern there, too, because studies have shown
02:27:43 --> 02:27:47 that when a parent's not able, at least one parent's not able to stay with a
02:27:47 --> 02:27:52 child for the first three months, there is developmental challenges for that child.
02:27:52 --> 02:27:57 So you're now, not only are you creating economic situation for that family,
02:27:57 --> 02:28:02 but now you are creating children with more developmental challenges because
02:28:02 --> 02:28:06 they're missing. And as regardless of who it is, that first three months is so important.
02:28:07 --> 02:28:13 So this is, again, speaks to that systemic need and we could make it a income-based
02:28:13 --> 02:28:18 need if we want it nationally, but there's a systemic need for paid leave.
02:28:18 --> 02:28:22 And for what research has shown is that first three months is critical.
02:28:23 --> 02:28:28 Yeah. So Mason, since you brought up the term fatherhood bonus,
02:28:28 --> 02:28:34 talk about that and the motherhood penalty and how would you advise companies
02:28:34 --> 02:28:35 to avoid that bias? Yeah.
02:28:36 --> 02:28:41 Interesting. And the more we talked about it with individuals,
02:28:41 --> 02:28:47 we've heard stories of both of a fatherhood penalty when they take the full leave.
02:28:48 --> 02:28:55 But the fatherhood bonus basically is the companies are bestowing this bias
02:28:55 --> 02:28:59 upon fathers, which I think rightly so, that they're going to become better
02:28:59 --> 02:29:01 employees. They're going to be more loyal to the company because now they have
02:29:01 --> 02:29:03 children to provide for.
02:29:03 --> 02:29:06 So they're going to be more diligent. There's a lot of treats we talked about
02:29:06 --> 02:29:11 before, skill set that will transfer over to work. Fantastic.
02:29:11 --> 02:29:15 Why women don't get that exact same positive bias? Remember we talked at the
02:29:15 --> 02:29:19 beginning of this podcast, there's positive and negative biases.
02:29:19 --> 02:29:23 Well, that's a positive bias that is bestowed upon this man to become a father,
02:29:23 --> 02:29:25 whether he earns it or not.
02:29:25 --> 02:29:30 But then when women become mothers, it's the opposite.
02:29:30 --> 02:29:33 They take that away, even though she's going through the exact same things and
02:29:33 --> 02:29:38 the exact same experience sometimes and a lot of times women are the primary caregiver.
02:29:38 --> 02:29:42 Still, the majority of primary caregivers are women going through more.
02:29:42 --> 02:29:45 She's going through more of this sort of training and skill sets.
02:29:45 --> 02:29:51 But mothers show there is a motherhood penalty for every child that they have.
02:29:51 --> 02:29:53 Their career earnings go down.
02:29:54 --> 02:30:02 And it is so much the way companies are inadvertently and unconsciously pushing mothers to the side.
02:30:02 --> 02:30:07 For what we hear often is that the moment the mother gives the,
02:30:07 --> 02:30:11 and it's a funny anecdote, that mothers will tell their employees much later
02:30:11 --> 02:30:16 that they're expecting a child than their spouses, than their male spouses.
02:30:16 --> 02:30:20 Male spouses tell, even when they have a commitment with their wife not to tell
02:30:20 --> 02:30:22 work at a certain time, they still tell work.
02:30:22 --> 02:30:26 Because they're so excited about it. Whereas the mother is very hesitant and
02:30:26 --> 02:30:29 knowing how this has seen an impact on your career.
02:30:29 --> 02:30:33 So the mother waits a lot longer before they tell the employer.
02:30:33 --> 02:30:37 And then some of that, what we talked about the book of how this,
02:30:37 --> 02:30:41 we should be looking at this as an opportunity, advantage of skillset training.
02:30:42 --> 02:30:48 But the mother's also bringing it on herself as because it's been so influenced
02:30:48 --> 02:30:50 in our culture that this is going to set back a career.
02:30:51 --> 02:30:54 And that sort of translates in the conversation as well.
02:30:54 --> 02:30:57 And so what happens, the manager's just thinking, oh, this is so nice,
02:30:57 --> 02:30:59 go to HR, oh, we take care of you.
02:30:59 --> 02:31:02 And the moment she's gone, they're talking to one of the colleagues and say,
02:31:02 --> 02:31:03 oh, I wonder if she's going to come back.
02:31:04 --> 02:31:07 You know, let's kind of sideline her. When she comes back, let's not give her
02:31:07 --> 02:31:11 some, she's taking care of her child, let's not give her any challenging assignments.
02:31:12 --> 02:31:15 And that starts taking away and the mother's like, oh, wait,
02:31:15 --> 02:31:17 I'm not really that valid here anymore.
02:31:17 --> 02:31:21 And the conversation is not taking there. What we say is you need to talk to
02:31:21 --> 02:31:24 that mother like, hey, we have these assignments. Would you like to take them when you come back?
02:31:24 --> 02:31:30 Instead of just, you know, out of good intent, pulling them away.
02:31:30 --> 02:31:33 So what we're saying is, as I said before, you have to own your leave.
02:31:34 --> 02:31:38 So if this is happening to you, whether you're a father and you took the full
02:31:38 --> 02:31:41 amount of leave and there's a negative consequence to that...
02:31:42 --> 02:31:46 I was at a dermatologist talking to him about this book. He said,
02:31:46 --> 02:31:48 oh, my wife works for a private equity firm.
02:31:49 --> 02:31:52 She was on a call. She was six months pregnant.
02:31:52 --> 02:31:55 And the senior partner was on this call. And he says, well, where's Peter?
02:31:56 --> 02:32:00 And she said, well, my wife said, well, his wife just had, they just had a child
02:32:00 --> 02:32:04 two days ago. And the senior associate's partner said, well,
02:32:04 --> 02:32:07 his wife had a child, not him. So why is he on this call?
02:32:08 --> 02:32:10 And she came back to us and said, I don't want to work at this.
02:32:11 --> 02:32:16 It's that mentality that's going on that, hey, women set aside,
02:32:16 --> 02:32:17 they're not expected to work.
02:32:17 --> 02:32:23 Men are. And but when men actually take that leave, it's dinged against them.
02:32:23 --> 02:32:27 So it's a lot of work. It's something that if you're going to own your leave,
02:32:28 --> 02:32:29 you have to have a conversation up front.
02:32:30 --> 02:32:33 If your woman say, hey, I understand, put it on the table. I understand sometimes
02:32:33 --> 02:32:36 this is seen as a negative for women and we get sidelined.
02:32:36 --> 02:32:40 I don't want that to happen here. I want to have a productive career here.
02:32:40 --> 02:32:46 So what can we do to make sure that, you know, I don't get sidelined inadvertently?
02:32:46 --> 02:32:52 I want those high profile assignments, or at least I want you to talk to me about them.
02:32:52 --> 02:32:55 And the same thing for men are taking full leave. Hey, I understand sometimes
02:32:56 --> 02:32:58 there's this negative bias when we take full leave.
02:32:58 --> 02:33:02 What can we do to make sure we mitigate that? You have to be open and you as
02:33:02 --> 02:33:05 an employee, as a worker, you have to take the leave.
02:33:05 --> 02:33:08 Do not expect your manager to take that lead.
02:33:09 --> 02:33:13 Yeah, I understand. So, Mark, I asked you this question this way.
02:33:14 --> 02:33:21 To make the lead process go smooth, Mason has pretty much enumerated that the
02:33:21 --> 02:33:25 employee has to own their lead, right?
02:33:26 --> 02:33:30 What would it take for an employer to make the lead process go smooth?
02:33:31 --> 02:33:34 Yeah, well, I think the employer needs to own the lead process,
02:33:34 --> 02:33:35 right? I mean, I think...
02:33:36 --> 02:33:41 There needs to be an expectation of a certain process that happens every time
02:33:41 --> 02:33:43 someone is going to become a parent. Right.
02:33:44 --> 02:33:47 And managers should be held accountable that it accountable for that.
02:33:47 --> 02:33:51 It shouldn't be optional. Right. We we think and we advocate for and describe
02:33:51 --> 02:33:56 in the book a process for what happens when someone is going to have a kid. Right.
02:33:56 --> 02:34:01 There should be a manager should be held responsible and accountable for having
02:34:02 --> 02:34:06 not just communicating policies, but setting expectations with the employees,
02:34:06 --> 02:34:10 having a process, talking through all the elements of that process.
02:34:10 --> 02:34:14 Because what we found in our interviews is, and Mason may have hit on this,
02:34:14 --> 02:34:17 is it was kind of, you know, catch as catch can.
02:34:17 --> 02:34:22 Some managers had the empathy and the experience and they did it really well.
02:34:22 --> 02:34:26 And others might've been well-intended, but just didn't have the experience.
02:34:27 --> 02:34:32 So the company needs to own this, like it owns other expectations it has of
02:34:32 --> 02:34:36 leaders, right? Which means- Things are an option. Yeah, which means developing
02:34:36 --> 02:34:38 the leaders. Like we develop leaders.
02:34:38 --> 02:34:42 It means creating coaching programs, mentoring programs. Also,
02:34:43 --> 02:34:47 a lot of companies create parent research, employee resource groups so parents.
02:34:48 --> 02:34:50 Can get together and talk about their concerns.
02:34:50 --> 02:34:54 It creates all that beyond just the sort of the paid leave.
02:34:54 --> 02:35:00 And it talks about a systemic approach of, hey, when somebody mentions that
02:35:00 --> 02:35:03 they're going to leave, here's we work with companies to create,
02:35:03 --> 02:35:06 okay, what does this process look like? How does the transition go?
02:35:06 --> 02:35:07 What are the checklists that we need to go on?
02:35:08 --> 02:35:11 What is the communication policy while they're off leave? And what does the
02:35:11 --> 02:35:13 returnship look like and how is that structured?
02:35:13 --> 02:35:18 So there's a lot of effort that goes into it for companies who want to get this right.
02:35:18 --> 02:35:21 And companies that want to get this, that do get this right,
02:35:21 --> 02:35:27 they see 100% return, retention of employees within their full year afterwards.
02:35:27 --> 02:35:33 Whereas a great percentage of companies, because they're just bondage.
02:35:33 --> 02:35:38 It. There's no process in place. The employees just leave because it's so critical.
02:35:38 --> 02:35:44 When you think back of the critical points in your life, having a child is one
02:35:44 --> 02:35:45 of the biggest ones, right?
02:35:46 --> 02:35:50 And how the people around you and your managers, your friends and family,
02:35:51 --> 02:35:56 how they support you during that first initial few months, you will remember
02:35:56 --> 02:35:57 for the rest of your life.
02:35:58 --> 02:36:02 You will form of opinion of that manager, of that company, and that will either
02:36:02 --> 02:36:05 make you more loyal or the opposite of what's going on.
02:36:05 --> 02:36:09 And this is the company that has a chance to create amazing employees that will
02:36:09 --> 02:36:14 stick through them, that will not take a counteroffer from a competitor years down the road.
02:36:15 --> 02:36:22 So Mason, you mentioned about maybe a federal law that mandates,
02:36:22 --> 02:36:27 or I guess, for lack of a better term, paid leave, how else should the government
02:36:27 --> 02:36:29 be more involved in insuring parental leave?
02:36:31 --> 02:36:35 There's a number of states. New York put in a piece of legislation a few years
02:36:35 --> 02:36:41 ago, I think it was last year, in which it is requiring employers to give so
02:36:41 --> 02:36:45 many hours of pre-birth leave to the mothers to do checkups.
02:36:46 --> 02:36:49 What we need to do is look at those, look, go through the states,
02:36:49 --> 02:36:53 find the policies in which the states have put in. You know,
02:36:53 --> 02:36:55 states are typically our testing ground for legislation.
02:36:56 --> 02:37:01 Actually, I agree with that model. You have a bunch of sort of these test cases
02:37:01 --> 02:37:04 everywhere. Find ones that work.
02:37:04 --> 02:37:09 Use those and look at creating a national legislation package that looks at
02:37:09 --> 02:37:14 supporting working parents and go beyond just talking about how we support working parents.
02:37:15 --> 02:37:19 Put it in there and look at not just paid leave, but also what we can do to
02:37:19 --> 02:37:23 support companies. Maybe it's tax breaks for companies.
02:37:23 --> 02:37:30 Maybe if you can't make a national sort of if there's not enough of a a majority
02:37:30 --> 02:37:36 to put in a national paid lead program in the US, maybe we can create tax breaks
02:37:36 --> 02:37:38 for companies who do have paid lead.
02:37:38 --> 02:37:44 And so we encourage, at least at the corporate level, there's a financial incentive for them to do that.
02:37:45 --> 02:37:51 And also focus on, we need to focus on the hourly workers because they're the
02:37:51 --> 02:37:53 ones that basically have nothing.
02:37:54 --> 02:37:59 What can we do there? So state by state, find out what policies and procedures
02:37:59 --> 02:38:04 legislation is working and use that to create a legislative approach nationally.
02:38:05 --> 02:38:11 All right. So, Mark, how do you all want this book to be utilized? Yeah.
02:38:14 --> 02:38:20 I want it to be utilized by companies who rethink how they think about parental
02:38:20 --> 02:38:22 leave and their relationship with parents.
02:38:23 --> 02:38:27 The thing I said earlier about our intent is to flip the assumption on the head
02:38:27 --> 02:38:30 from this is a problem to this is an opportunity.
02:38:30 --> 02:38:39 And what to me, what that means is that this starts to get embedded into the way decisions get made.
02:38:39 --> 02:38:44 One of the things that we saw in our three decades of work with inclusion and
02:38:44 --> 02:38:50 diversity is that the mark of change is when inclusion and diversity,
02:38:50 --> 02:38:52 of which this issue I think is one...
02:38:54 --> 02:38:58 Being a separate thing that people have to remember to think about or be reminded
02:38:58 --> 02:39:02 about and become something that just becomes a part of the decision-making process.
02:39:02 --> 02:39:07 So to the extent that our book is able to give enough of a rationale,
02:39:07 --> 02:39:12 but then also a lot of practical ways to just embed this into the processes,
02:39:12 --> 02:39:17 then you don't have to remember to think about it anymore. I mean, I think that's true.
02:39:17 --> 02:39:24 I'm hoping, at least, that's where we're going to get to in a difficult time that we're in now with,
02:39:25 --> 02:39:28 all of these issues of inclusion that we realize that what we have to do is
02:39:28 --> 02:39:33 embed this stuff so that we it's not something that's sitting out there that
02:39:33 --> 02:39:36 people can argue about all the time it's just a part of the way business gets
02:39:36 --> 02:39:39 done so i think there's enough in our book,
02:39:40 --> 02:39:43 to support that process for companies,
02:39:44 --> 02:39:49 but i would be negligent if i didn't also say that we do want new parents.
02:39:50 --> 02:39:53 We think this is a really good book for someone who is thinking of becoming
02:39:53 --> 02:39:58 a parent or maybe has recently become one, or actually even someone who not
02:39:58 --> 02:40:01 so recently became one, as a way to just think through this process.
02:40:02 --> 02:40:03 This changes your identity.
02:40:04 --> 02:40:09 It changes your relationship to the world. And it's a real opportunity to reassess
02:40:09 --> 02:40:13 your goals from a personal, but also from a career perspective.
02:40:13 --> 02:40:17 So to the extent that we can help people through that process individually,
02:40:17 --> 02:40:20 then that's also a goal of ours.
02:40:21 --> 02:40:26 All right. So my last question is really a challenge, and I would like both
02:40:26 --> 02:40:28 of y'all to answer it if you want to.
02:40:29 --> 02:40:32 Finish this sentence. I have hope because...
02:40:34 --> 02:40:40 Hope because i have seen advancement and on this issue in corporations i have
02:40:40 --> 02:40:42 seen companies who get it right,
02:40:43 --> 02:40:48 and have then have the data show what it means to them on their bottom line,
02:40:48 --> 02:40:55 and i have seen so many people lean in and say you know we need to focus on this issue now,
02:40:56 --> 02:41:01 and i have seen from our search in general a couple years ago saying this is
02:41:01 --> 02:41:04 a national crisis that we need to fix.
02:41:04 --> 02:41:06 I have hope because this is the time.
02:41:07 --> 02:41:10 This is the time where there's enough energy, there's enough focus,
02:41:10 --> 02:41:14 and there's enough goodwill there to push this issue ahead.
02:41:16 --> 02:41:19 I'm just, I'm a little bit too optimistic at sometimes maybe,
02:41:19 --> 02:41:24 right? Like I, I just, I just think we're going to do a lot of the right things
02:41:24 --> 02:41:28 because we have to, I think in the end it all comes down to that.
02:41:29 --> 02:41:33 So I'm a sort of, I'm a believer in the notion that we eventually get there,
02:41:33 --> 02:41:37 even if the road is a little more uneven than we'd like it to be.
02:41:37 --> 02:41:42 So I just think this is the, this is where we, we, this is where we're heading.
02:41:43 --> 02:41:47 And so we're, we're going to get there one way or another. And I think the one
02:41:47 --> 02:41:49 simple answer for both of us, we have hope because we're parents.
02:41:50 --> 02:41:54 Right. That's what parents have. We have hope that things will be better for our children. Yeah.
02:41:54 --> 02:41:59 Well, Mark had already admitted he was a half-full guy, so I didn't expect that answer.
02:42:00 --> 02:42:04 So look, guys, thank you all for doing this. If people want to get the book,
02:42:04 --> 02:42:07 if people want to reach out to you all, how can they do that?
02:42:07 --> 02:42:11 Amazon.com, you can find it there. You can find it on Barnes & Noble,
02:42:11 --> 02:42:13 your indie bookstore. They have access to it.
02:42:13 --> 02:42:16 If they don't have it on the shelves, just ask them. They can pull it through there.
02:42:17 --> 02:42:20 You can reach out to us at the parenthoodadvantage.com.
02:42:20 --> 02:42:25 We're more than happy to talk to you about it just to see where your company is.
02:42:25 --> 02:42:29 So yeah, feel free to reach out to us or at the very least, just buy the book,
02:42:30 --> 02:42:33 and share it with your HR and say, you know what, this is something that we need to talk about.
02:42:34 --> 02:42:39 All right. Well, Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan, I thank y'all so much for doing this.
02:42:40 --> 02:42:44 This is a very, very important topic and very timely.
02:42:44 --> 02:42:50 And so I'm really, really honored that, one, that y'all have developed,
02:42:50 --> 02:42:56 y'all have allowed your expertise to delve into that and that you took the time
02:42:56 --> 02:42:59 to come on my little old podcast to talk about it.
02:42:59 --> 02:43:01 So I appreciate that. Thank y'all so much.
02:43:02 --> 02:43:05 Thank you for the time, Erik. We appreciate it. Really enjoyed it.
02:43:05 --> 02:43:07 All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
02:43:20 --> 02:43:26 All right. And we are back. So I want to thank Jerren Chang, Dr.
02:43:26 --> 02:43:34 Bhumika Muchhala, and Mason Donovan and Mark Kaplan for coming on the podcast.
02:43:35 --> 02:43:41 It is, you know, always tough to, you know, try to secure people,
02:43:41 --> 02:43:46 you know, especially if, you know, it's holidays approaching.
02:43:46 --> 02:43:51 And I just really, really am thankful that all of them took the time this week
02:43:51 --> 02:43:56 to come on and do their interviews, and I hope that they enjoyed their holiday.
02:43:58 --> 02:44:02 Like I said, when you hear this episode, the holiday will have passed.
02:44:03 --> 02:44:11 But, you know, again, what I want to stress is, you know, with the people that
02:44:11 --> 02:44:17 come on here are people that are really trying to do good work.
02:44:18 --> 02:44:23 You know, whether it's in getting more people engaged, getting more people educated
02:44:23 --> 02:44:28 or creating environments for people to live their lives, right?
02:44:29 --> 02:44:34 It's really, really important to have people that are smart,
02:44:34 --> 02:44:40 that are articulate, and are committed to do those things, right?
02:44:40 --> 02:44:44 And so I just thank Jerren, Dr.
02:44:44 --> 02:44:53 Muchhala, and Mason and Mark for their contributions and following that tradition
02:44:53 --> 02:44:57 and that trend. And I'm not going to hold y'all along because y'all know what's going on.
02:44:58 --> 02:45:03 I guess, you know, biggest thing is we know that Donald Trump,
02:45:04 --> 02:45:10 our president, has been making money as president while everybody else is,
02:45:11 --> 02:45:13 you know, trying to do it honestly.
02:45:15 --> 02:45:24 And just working their butts off to make ends meet in these challenging economic times.
02:45:24 --> 02:45:29 I can't say tough because we're not in a depression like maybe our grandparents
02:45:29 --> 02:45:31 or some people, great-grandparents, we're in.
02:45:32 --> 02:45:34 But I do...
02:45:36 --> 02:45:43 To keep that in mind when we're going to vote, because we've got people who think that it's okay.
02:45:44 --> 02:45:49 We got this congressman who's not running for re-election, but his brother is.
02:45:49 --> 02:45:52 And I don't know if it's his twin brother, because they look exactly alike,
02:45:52 --> 02:45:55 or it's just his brother. But you know they're brothers.
02:45:56 --> 02:46:01 They can't deny it if they try it. This guy named Troy Nels, I think his name is.
02:46:01 --> 02:46:04 He used to be a sheriff in Texas.
02:46:05 --> 02:46:11 And a reporter asked him, he had said something about over the holiday weekend,
02:46:11 --> 02:46:12 he was going to have lobster and steak.
02:46:13 --> 02:46:20 And somebody, the reporter asked him, well, what about the majority of the population
02:46:20 --> 02:46:22 that can't afford lobster and steak?
02:46:23 --> 02:46:29 And he said that they need to work as hard as he does. you.
02:46:31 --> 02:46:37 So just to break that down, he makes $174 a year to work 88 days out of the year.
02:46:38 --> 02:46:44 So most of us work more than 88 days in a year, and we're not making that kind of money.
02:46:44 --> 02:46:48 For those of you all who are making that kind of money, keep pushing.
02:46:49 --> 02:46:54 Keep doing what you're doing and continue to strive to do better because you're going to need it.
02:46:54 --> 02:46:58 Because those of us that ain't making that kind of money, we trying to find
02:46:58 --> 02:47:03 ways to get as much money as we can just to take care of what we need. Right.
02:47:03 --> 02:47:06 But when we got elected officials that don't care about that,
02:47:07 --> 02:47:14 you know, that that are so brazen now, then we need to use the power that we have to send them home.
02:47:15 --> 02:47:19 And let's see how many lobster dinners and all that stuff he's going to eat.
02:47:20 --> 02:47:24 You know, we ain't making $174 a year. I'm sure he's probably set.
02:47:25 --> 02:47:28 You know, because those people take care of their own.
02:47:29 --> 02:47:33 But for the rest of us, we'll see. The only other thing that was kind of big
02:47:33 --> 02:47:41 was the sister Malak Keros beat a 16-year incumbent in Colorado in the Democratic primary.
02:47:42 --> 02:47:47 So there's going to be some changes in there because that district's pretty
02:47:47 --> 02:47:49 much a Democratic district.
02:47:50 --> 02:47:55 And barring anything crazy that she might say or do, she's going to be in there.
02:47:55 --> 02:48:01 But she is a classic story of a person who went to law school.
02:48:02 --> 02:48:07 At a good firm, took a political stance on something, lost her job,
02:48:08 --> 02:48:15 was a coffee barista, and then she decided, I'm going to run for Congress. And she won.
02:48:15 --> 02:48:20 You know, just because you see people at some of these jobs don't mean that
02:48:20 --> 02:48:22 they're not intelligent people.
02:48:23 --> 02:48:28 You don't know what their story is. And Ms. Keros is a classic example of that.
02:48:28 --> 02:48:32 AOC is a classic example that she was working as a waitress as a restaurant
02:48:32 --> 02:48:35 when she got elected, you know?
02:48:36 --> 02:48:40 So I was, I was a deputy sheriff when I got elected, you know?
02:48:40 --> 02:48:45 So it's like you, you can't judge a book by its cover, especially when it comes
02:48:45 --> 02:48:51 to public service, because no matter what you think of the four founders,
02:48:52 --> 02:48:54 the founding fathers or whatever you want to call them,
02:48:55 --> 02:49:01 You know, that vision that they had about America was divinely inspired.
02:49:02 --> 02:49:09 And when they came years later after the declaration was signed and they fought
02:49:09 --> 02:49:13 the Revolutionary War, when they were forming a country and drafting a constitution.
02:49:14 --> 02:49:19 The most important thing they wanted to have was representation from the people.
02:49:19 --> 02:49:25 And that's why Article 1 is about Congress and setting that up first.
02:49:25 --> 02:49:29 That's why Congress gets sworn in before the president does,
02:49:30 --> 02:49:34 because this is government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
02:49:35 --> 02:49:42 And our most representative body is the House of Representatives in Washington. Okay.
02:49:43 --> 02:49:49 So that's why when we have a congressman saying, well, you know,
02:49:50 --> 02:49:54 I can eat lobster and steak, I don't know why ain't nobody else able to do it.
02:49:55 --> 02:49:59 Those are people that are not in tune with their constituents.
02:50:00 --> 02:50:04 Because I promise you, Fort Bend, Texas, and I've never been there,
02:50:05 --> 02:50:09 but I promise you Fort Bend, Texas does not have everybody in that population,
02:50:10 --> 02:50:14 eating lobster and steak whenever they want to. Right.
02:50:15 --> 02:50:20 So that's why it's important for us to have people and have a diverse group of people,
02:50:21 --> 02:50:26 in the House of Representatives, because that is the body that represents America
02:50:26 --> 02:50:31 more than the president, more than the Senate, more than the Supreme Court.
02:50:32 --> 02:50:36 And even though the Supreme Court has this unique qualification where all you
02:50:36 --> 02:50:41 have to be is a citizen to serve, most of the people that get picked for that
02:50:41 --> 02:50:43 are not average citizens.
02:50:43 --> 02:50:48 They've gone to Ivy League colleges and law schools and all that kind of stuff, you know.
02:50:49 --> 02:50:54 And it's not to say that Ivy League people are any different than any other
02:50:54 --> 02:50:57 human beings, but because of the tradition of those schools,
02:50:58 --> 02:50:59 especially Harvard and Yale,
02:51:00 --> 02:51:03 because those are kind of like the founding institutions, and we've talked about
02:51:03 --> 02:51:09 this in a podcast, of the United States, you know.
02:51:10 --> 02:51:11 It's a little different.
02:51:12 --> 02:51:18 But that's okay because we need some of them in Congress and we need some coffee
02:51:18 --> 02:51:21 baristas and waitresses in Congress.
02:51:21 --> 02:51:25 We need people that sell feed in Congress.
02:51:25 --> 02:51:30 We need people that sell insurance in Congress. We need people that own construction
02:51:30 --> 02:51:37 companies or people that are actually construction workers, farmers, doctors.
02:51:38 --> 02:51:44 We need everybody, right? So if you have the compunction, if you have the commitment,
02:51:44 --> 02:51:46 to get out there and run, do it.
02:51:47 --> 02:51:51 If you're not successful, okay, the world's not going to end.
02:51:53 --> 02:51:56 Commitment to service shouldn't end, right?
02:51:57 --> 02:52:02 It's a humbling experience when you don't win an election, but it shouldn't
02:52:02 --> 02:52:05 take your fire away if you don't win.
02:52:05 --> 02:52:13 And if you do win, remember who you are and don't let the system taint you in
02:52:13 --> 02:52:20 any way where you forget who you are, where you came from, and who your people are, right?
02:52:20 --> 02:52:24 Because once you get in positions where people are patting you on the back and
02:52:24 --> 02:52:27 giving you special privilege, you can get caught in a trap.
02:52:29 --> 02:52:35 Can get stroked. And so you have to have a strong enough core belief in what
02:52:35 --> 02:52:41 you were going up there to do and maintain that. And that applies to any elected
02:52:41 --> 02:52:44 position. Doesn't matter. It doesn't have to be Congress.
02:52:44 --> 02:52:47 It could be your state legislature. It could be your county commission.
02:52:49 --> 02:52:53 County board, your school board, you know, city council. Doesn't matter.
02:52:54 --> 02:53:00 You know, we have all these positions in place to make sure that the people
02:53:01 --> 02:53:03 are heard at every level, right?
02:53:04 --> 02:53:12 So, you know, I just want you to take the lesson of Malakiros and a lot of these
02:53:12 --> 02:53:17 other folks that are out here running, some of the people that have been on the podcast.
02:53:18 --> 02:53:22 You know, and just like Kaylee Peterson, for example, or Dr.
02:53:22 --> 02:53:27 Jasmine Clark, you know, Walla Begay, Amanda Janu, you know,
02:53:27 --> 02:53:31 George Hernando, all these people that jumped out here.
02:53:31 --> 02:53:34 And there were some people I was like, really, they're going to run for office?
02:53:34 --> 02:53:38 And then other people was like, the fire is in them.
02:53:38 --> 02:53:43 And they're even if they don't win, they're still going to be out here pushing.
02:53:44 --> 02:53:47 Right. And that's what I like people to be.
02:53:47 --> 02:53:53 And if you, I always say, I don't want you to be a political junkie like I am.
02:53:54 --> 02:53:55 You don't have to be that.
02:53:56 --> 02:54:01 Want you to be engaged. I do want you to pay attention to what's happening because
02:54:01 --> 02:54:07 the decisions that are being made in all these state capitals and at the U.S. Capitol impact you.
02:54:07 --> 02:54:15 And you need to know what is going on and why it's happening and understand
02:54:15 --> 02:54:18 that you have the power to say, I'm not feeling it.
02:54:19 --> 02:54:24 And you can change the leadership, right? If you're not happy with a president
02:54:24 --> 02:54:32 that's made $2 billion in one year being president, then don't support that president, right?
02:54:32 --> 02:54:37 Now, this president can't run for an election, so once his term is out,
02:54:37 --> 02:54:42 he's done, but there's others of his ilk that say, well, if he got away with
02:54:42 --> 02:54:47 it, maybe I can too, and we have the power to say, no, that's one and done.
02:54:47 --> 02:54:50 That's not happening anymore. We can stop that, right?
02:54:51 --> 02:54:56 The other thing is that I want to give a report.
02:54:56 --> 02:55:04 So as I'm recording this now, the event has not happened, but I'll give a summary
02:55:04 --> 02:55:08 next episode about Martyrs Day.
02:55:08 --> 02:55:13 So as you remember, Gloria Brown Marshall, who wrote this incredible book called
02:55:13 --> 02:55:17 A Protest History of the United States, while she was doing a book tour,
02:55:17 --> 02:55:25 she kind of got inspired to say, we need to have a day to recognize the civilians,
02:55:26 --> 02:55:28 who gave their lives for our freedom.
02:55:29 --> 02:55:34 And, you know, the obvious names like Dr. King or Malcolm X or Edgar Evers,
02:55:34 --> 02:55:38 you know, but there's other people like Renee Good and Alex Preddy. Right.
02:55:39 --> 02:55:43 And all the way back to Crispus Attucks. Right.
02:55:44 --> 02:55:48 Six years before the Declaration of Independence, he gave his life,
02:55:48 --> 02:55:50 you know, protesting the British.
02:55:52 --> 02:55:57 So, you know, there needs to be some kind of recognition that other countries
02:55:57 --> 02:56:01 do that. Other countries have a tradition of honoring their martyrs,
02:56:01 --> 02:56:05 the civilians that they gave their life to advance the nation.
02:56:06 --> 02:56:11 And so she thought that it would be a good idea for us in America to do the same thing.
02:56:11 --> 02:56:19 And so the plan is every July 5th from this day forward will be designated as
02:56:19 --> 02:56:21 Martyrs Day in the United States.
02:56:21 --> 02:56:25 Now, we're not advocating it to be a national holiday and all that,
02:56:25 --> 02:56:30 but that may happen if we keep this thing going. Right.
02:56:31 --> 02:56:35 And, you know, it's one thing to celebrate the independence of a nation.
02:56:35 --> 02:56:41 It's another thing to acknowledge the people who are not soldiers at war.
02:56:42 --> 02:56:47 Who gave their lives to make sure that that independence continues.
02:56:47 --> 02:56:51 Regimes, right? That tyranny doesn't set in, whether it's in a region of the
02:56:51 --> 02:56:56 country, a city in the country, or in a nation as a whole, right?
02:56:57 --> 02:57:04 And so, you know, based on the conversation and the interviews that I had with Ms.
02:57:04 --> 02:57:08 Brown Marshall, it was coming to realize that we weren't having,
02:57:09 --> 02:57:12 nobody had stepped up to do one here in the Atlanta area.
02:57:13 --> 02:57:17 And so I reached out to a couple of people. And like I said,
02:57:17 --> 02:57:22 by the time that you hear this podcast, we would have done it that Sunday,
02:57:22 --> 02:57:24 the July 5th falls on a Sunday this year.
02:57:24 --> 02:57:28 So I will give a report about how that went.
02:57:29 --> 02:57:34 From the local perspective, but from the national perspective as well,
02:57:34 --> 02:57:35 because we're going to do ours.
02:57:36 --> 02:57:41 We would have done ours that morning and the national would have happened that afternoon. Right.
02:57:42 --> 02:57:48 So I'll give, I'll, you know, kind of give a brief wrap up about how that went and all that stuff.
02:57:48 --> 02:57:54 And hopefully some of y'all that normally listen to the podcast would have been
02:57:54 --> 02:57:55 in attendance at that day.
02:57:55 --> 02:58:00 We're not expecting a big crowd because, you know, it was kind of like last
02:58:00 --> 02:58:05 minute trying to put something together, but we just wanted to do something to acknowledge today,
02:58:06 --> 02:58:11 and set the groundwork and the foundation so that next year,
02:58:11 --> 02:58:13 July 5th, will be a bigger deal.
02:58:14 --> 02:58:20 And we want to keep this going. And, you know, as long as Sister Brown Marshall,
02:58:21 --> 02:58:27 and I and others are on this side of reality, we're going to do our part to kind of keep it going.
02:58:27 --> 02:58:32 So I just wanted to kind of give you a preview of that, and then I'll give you
02:58:32 --> 02:58:35 the update next week. So that's really all I got.
02:58:35 --> 02:58:39 I appreciate y'all sitting through another long episode.
02:58:40 --> 02:58:45 Excuse me, as you do all these other episodes, because, again,
02:58:45 --> 02:58:50 I want you to get to know these people and know what they are doing.
02:58:51 --> 02:58:57 You know, I don't want to give you like a two-minute, five-minute hit on something as major as...
02:58:59 --> 02:59:07 Ending the accumulation culture of capitalism, right? Or how employers can be,
02:59:07 --> 02:59:11 more responsive to employees that are having children, right?
02:59:12 --> 02:59:14 You know, you can't just do that in five minutes.
02:59:16 --> 02:59:20 You need to flesh some things out, right?
02:59:21 --> 02:59:25 And pick people's brains, especially these brilliant people that are coming on the show.
02:59:26 --> 02:59:30 So I appreciate y'all sticking with me. I appreciate y'all support.
02:59:31 --> 02:59:33 And we're just going to keep it going.
02:59:34 --> 02:59:37 We're just going to keep it going because we got to. We got to.
02:59:39 --> 02:59:43 So, all right. That is all I have. Like I said, next week, Grace will be back.
02:59:43 --> 02:59:49 And we'll have a full show. And I may not have any guests next week.
02:59:50 --> 02:59:55 That's still kind of up in the air. But if I don't, then it'll just be a hot mic episode.
02:59:55 --> 02:59:59 And you'll just get to hear me talk and run and rave. And I'll probably have
02:59:59 --> 03:00:09 a lot to talk about based on how everything's going after we celebrate 250 years of existence.
03:00:11 --> 03:00:16 All right, guys. On that note, like I said, that's all I got. Until next time.