Host Erik Fleming sits down with Dr. C. Nicole Mason, Maura Gillespie, and author Will Cooper to unpack women’s political power, the recent No Kings rallies, the state of American civic life, and Cooper’s new fictionalized take on Donald Rumsfeld. The episode blends policy analysis, grassroots strategy, and cultural commentary aimed at helping listeners connect the dots and take action.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:01:11 --> 00:01:16 The following program is hosted by the NBG Podcast Network.
00:01:57 --> 00:02:02 And welcome to another moment with Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:02 --> 00:02:06 And so today is a special kind of day.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:12 Well, episode, I should say, because I have a number of guests on.
00:02:12 --> 00:02:17 So it's a jam-packed show. But a couple of the guests have been on before.
00:02:18 --> 00:02:23 One is a very frequent guest on the show, and he has written a new book.
00:02:23 --> 00:02:29 So we're going to talk about that. And then the other repeat guest is a young
00:02:29 --> 00:02:32 lady who is very, very dynamic.
00:02:32 --> 00:02:39 And I believe one of the most, well, one of the, I want to emphasize,
00:02:39 --> 00:02:43 is one of the most important people in the discussion, especially when it comes
00:02:43 --> 00:02:45 to issues dealing with women in America.
00:02:46 --> 00:02:54 She's devoted a lot of her time and her career in researching issues that impact
00:02:54 --> 00:03:02 women and trying to come up with action plans to make a difference in their lives.
00:03:02 --> 00:03:08 And so I'm glad to have both of those repeat guests. And again,
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 I stress following the rule.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:15 So once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.
00:03:15 --> 00:03:21 I don't even, you don't even have to wait for me to ask you. You can just say, hey.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 And so you hear me say that a lot, but I really mean that. And these two guests
00:03:25 --> 00:03:28 are proof that that is the case.
00:03:28 --> 00:03:33 And then I have one particular, the other guest is somebody that I've been pursuing
00:03:33 --> 00:03:39 to be on the podcast for a while. And we finally were able to make that happen.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:45 And so I was so glad to get this young lady on because she is she is very,
00:03:45 --> 00:03:49 very insightful about the political process.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:57 And, you know, with all of my guests, the time that I've allotted to have these
00:03:57 --> 00:03:58 conversations is not enough.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:06 You know, I'm already pushing the limits and having these multiple guests and how long the podcast go.
00:04:06 --> 00:04:10 But I think you all are getting something out of it.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:14 That's why you keep listening and the word is spreading.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:19 I'm finding out even more so. So that's good.
00:04:19 --> 00:04:23 But yeah, but this young lady, she's very, very impressive.
00:04:23 --> 00:04:29 And hopefully you can pick that up in our discussion. Still looking for folks.
00:04:30 --> 00:04:35 To subscribe, as always. So you can go to patreon.com slash amomenterikfleming, do that.
00:04:35 --> 00:04:40 Or you can go to momenterik.com and go to the website and not only subscribe,
00:04:40 --> 00:04:45 but learn a little bit more about the podcast, especially if this is your first time listening to it.
00:04:46 --> 00:04:49 Yeah, so this is going to be a great show.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 Matter of fact, I think that's why I'm just going to title it.
00:04:52 --> 00:04:57 You know, instead of trying to, because all of them are coming at different
00:04:57 --> 00:05:01 angles in the discussion, I'm just going to call this a great show.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:10 Again, I'm not an expert at titles, and you've done as many episodes as I've
00:05:10 --> 00:05:16 had. You know that it gets challenging to try to do something that's not repetitive.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:20 So this will be the last time I'll be able to use this bailout title,
00:05:20 --> 00:05:23 but that's what we're going to call this episode a great show.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:29 And I hope that you agree that it lives up to it with the guests that we have on.
00:05:30 --> 00:05:35 And another reason why the show is great is because of Grace G.
00:05:36 --> 00:05:44 She has been, what's the term I want to use, invaluable as far as her dependency
00:05:44 --> 00:05:46 and her professionalism.
00:05:46 --> 00:05:54 And I hope that y'all are getting something every time that she's doing these news spots.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:59 You know, it has really been a good addition to the podcast.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:05 And I pray that we can continue to keep this thing going.
00:06:06 --> 00:06:10 So without any further ado, it's time for a moment of news. With Grace G.
00:06:18 --> 00:06:23 Thanks, Erik. Millions of people of all ages took part in peaceful No Kings
00:06:23 --> 00:06:29 rallies across the United States on October 18th to protest President Trump's authoritarian agenda.
00:06:29 --> 00:06:34 NBA Hall of Famer Chauncey Billups and Miami Heat guard Terry Rozier were among
00:06:34 --> 00:06:38 more than 30 people charged in two related federal gambling investigations.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:44 North Carolina's legislature passed a new congressional map designed to gain
00:06:44 --> 00:06:46 an additional Republican seat in the U.S.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 House, furthering a national mid-decade redistricting push by Republicans.
00:06:51 --> 00:06:55 President Trump commuted the prison sentence of former U.S.
00:06:55 --> 00:07:00 Representative George Santos. President Trump's lawyers are seeking $230 million
00:07:00 --> 00:07:05 from the Justice Department for legal costs in his federal investigations.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:07 A U.S. appeals court ruled that
00:07:07 --> 00:07:11 President Trump can deploy National Guard troops into Portland, Oregon.
00:07:11 --> 00:07:17 A federal judge in Chicago mandated that federal law enforcement officers involved
00:07:17 --> 00:07:22 in immigration enforcement must wear and activate body cameras during interactions with the public.
00:07:23 --> 00:07:27 The state of Arizona sued the U.S. House of Representatives over the delayed
00:07:27 --> 00:07:31 swearing-in of Representative-elect Adelita Grijalva.
00:07:31 --> 00:07:36 Former FBI Director James Comey, citing constitutional violations,
00:07:36 --> 00:07:40 asked a federal judge to dismiss criminal charges against him.
00:07:40 --> 00:07:45 The Trump administration announced it will freeze an additional $11 billion
00:07:45 --> 00:07:48 worth of infrastructure projects in Democratic-led states.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:54 A New York jury convicted one former correctional officer of murder in the fatal
00:07:54 --> 00:07:58 beating of inmate Robert Brooks, but acquitted two others.
00:07:58 --> 00:08:03 A Georgia man with an assault rifle and ammunition was arrested at Atlanta's
00:08:03 --> 00:08:09 main airport after his family tipped off police that he was planning to shoot up the terminal.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:15 And OpenAI has blocked users from generating videos of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:22 With its new Sora app after disrespectful depictions of the civil rights leaders surfaced online.
00:08:22 --> 00:08:26 I am Grace Gee, and this has been a Moment of News.
00:08:33 --> 00:08:38 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it's time for
00:08:38 --> 00:08:41 my guest, Dr. C. Nicole Mason.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:46 As one of the nation's foremost intersectional researchers and scholars, Dr.
00:08:46 --> 00:08:51 C. Nicole Mason brings a fresh perspective and a wealth of experience to the
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 creation of Future Forward Women, a bold new initiative to build women's power
00:08:55 --> 00:08:59 and influence in the United States. For the past two decades, Dr.
00:08:59 --> 00:09:05 Mason has spearheaded research on issues relating to economic security, pay equity, poverty,
00:09:06 --> 00:09:11 women's issues and entitlement reforms, policy formation and political participation
00:09:11 --> 00:09:16 among women and communities of color and racial equity. Dr.
00:09:16 --> 00:09:20 Mason was the Executive Director of the Women of Color Policy Network at New
00:09:20 --> 00:09:22 York University's Robert F.
00:09:22 --> 00:09:27 Wagner Graduate School of Public Service The nation's only research and policy
00:09:27 --> 00:09:33 center focused on women of color at a nationally ranked school of public administration
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 She is also an inaugural ASCEND fellow at the Aspen Institute in Washington, D.C.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:43 At the start of the pandemic, she coined the term she-cession to describe the
00:09:43 --> 00:09:47 disproportionate impact of employment and income losses on women.
00:09:48 --> 00:09:52 Dr. Mason is the author of Born Bright, a young girl's journey from nothing
00:09:52 --> 00:09:56 to something in America, and has written hundreds of articles on women,
00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 poverty, and economic security.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:07 Her writing and commentary have been featured in the New York Times, MSNBC, CNN, NBC, CBS,
00:10:07 --> 00:10:13 The Washington Post, Marie Claire, The Progressive, Essence, Bustle, Big Think.
00:10:14 --> 00:10:20 The Miami Herald, Democracy Now!, and numerous NPR affiliates, among others.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:25 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:10:25 --> 00:10:29 again on this podcast, Dr.
00:10:29 --> 00:10:31 C. Nicole Mason.
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 All right. Dr. C. Nicole Mason. How are you doing, sister? It's good to see you again.
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 It's good to see you too. It's been a while. It's been a minute.
00:10:50 --> 00:10:53 Yeah, it's been a minute, but you know, we've been doing our thing,
00:10:54 --> 00:10:58 especially you and the organization's going well, I take it?
00:10:59 --> 00:11:03 Yeah, it's going well. We're really doing good work. And I think it's really
00:11:03 --> 00:11:08 timely because it's in this moment when we think about, you know,
00:11:08 --> 00:11:14 all that's happening and new strategies and new tactics, I think it's a breath of fresh air.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:16 So I'm thinking about like, well,
00:11:16 --> 00:11:20 how do we win? How do we come up with a strategy? Where's the vision?
00:11:20 --> 00:11:24 And bringing people together. So really excited about how it's going.
00:11:24 --> 00:11:31 Okay. All right. So first icebreaker you're familiar with is that we throw a quote at you.
00:11:31 --> 00:11:37 So this is your quote Women's health, economic well-being, safety and political
00:11:37 --> 00:11:39 power hinges on the state they
00:11:39 --> 00:11:44 reside in This shouldn't be the case What does that quote mean to you?
00:11:44 --> 00:11:49 That's a good quote. You know, that person sounds brilliant. No, I'm kidding.
00:11:52 --> 00:11:57 When I think about that quote, so, you know, we did a power and influence index
00:11:57 --> 00:12:01 where we looked at where women stood across the 50 states and where they had
00:12:01 --> 00:12:05 the most power, least power, their health, economic well-being.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:09 And, you know, it wasn't, the findings weren't that shocking.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:15 We know where women are thriving and where they're not. But what was shocking
00:12:15 --> 00:12:21 to me is that when we mapped it, was that you could be living in the state of Maryland,
00:12:21 --> 00:12:26 cross over to Virginia, go down to Mississippi, and you'd have another bundle
00:12:26 --> 00:12:29 of rights, a different set of rights.
00:12:29 --> 00:12:34 You could be worse off economically than if you lived in Maryland or D.C.,
00:12:34 --> 00:12:37 especially for women of color, Black women.
00:12:37 --> 00:12:41 And to be honest, Erik, and, you know.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 I sometimes I like I hate when I make this comparison,
00:12:46 --> 00:12:52 but we haven't seen something like this in about 400 years where your rights
00:12:52 --> 00:12:57 were are determined by the state that you live in, you know,
00:12:57 --> 00:12:58 and that's problematic.
00:12:58 --> 00:13:01 Yeah, well, I don't know why you would hedge on that.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:07 I mean, it's basically true, you know, and we've always had that dynamic because
00:13:07 --> 00:13:09 of the way that the United States are constructed.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:15 But, you know, I guess more in recent time, when you look at what was happening
00:13:15 --> 00:13:19 in the Jim Crow states and what was happening everywhere else.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:23 I mean, that's why I've been telling people, if you want to deal with authoritarianism,
00:13:23 --> 00:13:27 you might need to talk to black folks because a lot of folks lived through that
00:13:27 --> 00:13:29 just like 50, 60 years ago.
00:13:30 --> 00:13:34 Right. And there's so, like you said, it wasn't that long ago.
00:13:35 --> 00:13:40 You know, they're still alive. You know, there are stories to be told. And there's also...
00:13:41 --> 00:13:47 Ways to respond. Like we have, you know, people are always talking about,
00:13:47 --> 00:13:52 oh, what are the signs of authoritarianism? Like one, two, three, four, five, six.
00:13:52 --> 00:13:56 And I'm like, but yeah, you can spend our time doing that, but we could also
00:13:56 --> 00:14:01 spend our time thinking about how to fight back against authoritarianism.
00:14:01 --> 00:14:04 And we do know how to, but you got to talk to the right people,
00:14:05 --> 00:14:06 like you said. That's exactly right.
00:14:07 --> 00:14:12 All right. So I added a new icebreaker since the last time we talked and it's called 20 questions.
00:14:13 --> 00:14:17 So I'm here for it. All right. So I need you to give me a number between one
00:14:17 --> 00:14:20 and 20. I'm going to do eight. Okay.
00:14:20 --> 00:14:26 What is one thing you hope the current administration will do or not do during this term?
00:14:27 --> 00:14:30 Well, they're doing everything I don't want them to do.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:35 Like there's not literally not one thing that they're doing that I don't want them to do.
00:14:35 --> 00:14:44 So I, you know, so if I wanted them to do something, it would be to stop what they are doing.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:48 So stop it. Stop being ridiculous.
00:14:49 --> 00:14:53 Stop being racist. Stop being xenophobic. Stop being classes.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:57 Stop, stop all your behaviors.
00:14:57 --> 00:15:03 So I would want them to stop. Yeah. So you're saying you want them to stop.
00:15:03 --> 00:15:04 Is that what you're saying?
00:15:04 --> 00:15:09 Yeah. But if there's something I wanted them to do, it would also be to stop like that.
00:15:11 --> 00:15:16 Stop and stop. So, look, since since we brought that up, about seven million
00:15:16 --> 00:15:21 people got out on a Saturday and said, yeah, we want them to stop, too.
00:15:21 --> 00:15:28 So what were your thoughts about the No Kings protest that happened just recently?
00:15:28 --> 00:15:31 And then earlier this year, there were about five million people that came out.
00:15:31 --> 00:15:36 What are your thoughts about that? Because I've heard some interesting perspectives.
00:15:37 --> 00:15:42 I was there both times. I was there both times. You know...
00:15:43 --> 00:15:49 I think we need sustained action, you know, and, you know, 7 million people,
00:15:50 --> 00:15:53 8 million people showing up one time, one day is powerful.
00:15:54 --> 00:15:57 We need to do that every day. You know, this needs to be our job.
00:15:58 --> 00:16:03 Like, you know, you don't fight authoritarianism on a Saturday because that's
00:16:03 --> 00:16:07 when people are not at work, you know, and they have the free time and it's
00:16:07 --> 00:16:09 a couple hours out of the day.
00:16:09 --> 00:16:15 And what we know from the civil rights movement and fighting back against these
00:16:15 --> 00:16:20 kinds of regimes, I'm going to call it, is that it takes sustained efforts,
00:16:21 --> 00:16:22 sustained resistance. Right.
00:16:23 --> 00:16:26 I'm going to even say, and this is around Black Lives Matter.
00:16:27 --> 00:16:32 I told my kids, went to the rallies in D.C., and I said, we're going to show
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 up here every weekend until something changes.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:42 And about after the third weekend, it was just people just selling T-shirts.
00:16:42 --> 00:16:45 You know, I said, well, where is the reason?
00:16:45 --> 00:16:49 I thought we were going to be out here, you know, every weekend or doing this
00:16:49 --> 00:16:56 every day, you know. And so I think that in this moment, that's what we sustained resistance.
00:16:57 --> 00:16:58 I don't know.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:03 I think I've heard some of the critiques about the No Kings March,
00:17:03 --> 00:17:06 but, you know, what else are we doing, people?
00:17:07 --> 00:17:10 You know, what else? What are we going to do? You know?
00:17:11 --> 00:17:15 Yeah, I think the biggest thing I heard was what you addressed that it's like
00:17:15 --> 00:17:21 it's one thing because I heard somebody say, well, that's not a protest. that's a rally.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:26 It's like a protest is something sustainable, something that you're constantly doing.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:31 And so I agree with you on that. And I've been there, done that when you're
00:17:31 --> 00:17:36 talking about, okay, yeah, so we're going to meet every Friday.
00:17:36 --> 00:17:39 We're going to have this prayer in front of the government's mansion and all this stuff.
00:17:39 --> 00:17:41 And it started off with like 150 people.
00:17:42 --> 00:17:46 And about two months in, it was down to the voted seven. You know what I'm saying?
00:17:47 --> 00:17:54 And so that's part of the strategy is that they're hoping for attrition and
00:17:54 --> 00:17:57 lack of interest as opposed to something sustainable.
00:17:57 --> 00:18:01 So we're in agreement with that. And I think most people feel that way.
00:18:01 --> 00:18:06 And hopefully the protests will lead to some kind of sustainable action.
00:18:07 --> 00:18:11 Have you had a chance to read Vice President Harris's book, 107 Days?
00:18:12 --> 00:18:16 I have not, but I do have it. And I have, I do have it.
00:18:16 --> 00:18:20 I have like a stack of books here. So I do have it. I haven't read it.
00:18:20 --> 00:18:24 I will read it because I want to review it. But I have enjoyed,
00:18:24 --> 00:18:28 can I just say, watching the clips from the tour.
00:18:28 --> 00:18:33 They have been amazing because she feels unleashed.
00:18:33 --> 00:18:37 She feels empowered and she
00:18:37 --> 00:18:40 has something to say like she's telling her story but i think
00:18:40 --> 00:18:43 in her story are some instructive lessons
00:18:43 --> 00:18:46 about what not to do and how
00:18:46 --> 00:18:51 to treat people and it's like in the book i mean from the very jump when the
00:18:51 --> 00:18:57 word unleashed is the perfect word for it because from the opening introduction
00:18:57 --> 00:19:03 she used like oh yeah yeah i'm gonna read this this It sounds like she didn't put the earrings down.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:08 She put the Vaseline on the face. She ready to go. You know what I'm saying? And she does it.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:14 And she's very, very open and retrospective about the campaign.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:20 And, you know, it's very hard for us that have run for office when we get when
00:19:20 --> 00:19:23 we suffer defeat, especially for a position that we really want it.
00:19:24 --> 00:19:28 To kind of peel back and say, okay, what did I do wrong?
00:19:29 --> 00:19:33 Where did, where did I not make the right connection, whatever, you know?
00:19:34 --> 00:19:39 So it's, it's very, very revealing. I was, I was, I got the audio version cause
00:19:39 --> 00:19:40 I wanted to hear her talk.
00:19:40 --> 00:19:43 Cause in this day and age, I'm tired of hearing the current president.
00:19:43 --> 00:19:45 So I wanted to hear the president I voted for.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:49 So I got that. I think, I think I'm going to do that too. I have a couple of
00:19:49 --> 00:19:53 audible credits out of, you know, I have the hard copy, but I think I'm going
00:19:53 --> 00:19:58 to go ahead and do what you did so I can take a listen and hear it in her own voice, you know.
00:20:00 --> 00:20:03 So I'm going to do that too. Okay. All right.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:09 So there's been a steady decline of women in the workplace since the beginning of the year.
00:20:09 --> 00:20:14 Experts cite three factors demanding employees to return to the workplace,
00:20:14 --> 00:20:18 the rising cost of childcare, and mass deportation.
00:20:18 --> 00:20:26 One, and so since you coined the phrase secession, is this an example of the
00:20:26 --> 00:20:31 secession continuing or has it accelerated?
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 This is something completely different. You know, the she session was explaining
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 an economic downturn, like a recession,
00:20:39 --> 00:20:44 you know, and, you know, understanding that the job losses that were happening
00:20:44 --> 00:20:48 were disproportionately impacting women. So that is that.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:53 What we're seeing now is something completely man-made.
00:20:54 --> 00:21:00 It's man-made. By that, I mean, it's the administration's doing.
00:21:00 --> 00:21:06 And some of it has been really exacting The 300 women, black women Pushed
00:21:06 --> 00:21:10 out of the workforce That's not, you know, oh,
00:21:10 --> 00:21:17 unintentional When you understand that majority of black women A lot of black
00:21:17 --> 00:21:19 women A good size of black women,
00:21:20 --> 00:21:24 Are employed in the federal government They work in the federal government And
00:21:24 --> 00:21:27 then when you say, I'm just going to go by And cut all federal,
00:21:27 --> 00:21:32 you know, fire federal employees and, you know, reduction in force,
00:21:32 --> 00:21:37 you have to understand that's going to have a disproportionate impact on Black women,
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 and destabilize communities, destabilize families.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 And so it's not unintentional.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:55 And then, you know, the fear, the backlash around people, I'm not even going
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 to say DEI because I don't think we should call it that.
00:21:57 --> 00:22:00 I said we should say what it is. It's the backlash against,
00:22:02 --> 00:22:06 Black and brown progress. That's what it is.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:13 It's anti-DI. It's anti-progress. It's anti-Blackness.
00:22:13 --> 00:22:16 It is racism.
00:22:18 --> 00:22:27 And there are no protections. When we talk about the venture fund that was committed
00:22:27 --> 00:22:31 to funding Black women businesses, taking that to court,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:39 making it so that they can't give grants and support to Black women businesses,
00:22:39 --> 00:22:44 this is not anti, this is not leveling the field. This is racism.
00:22:44 --> 00:22:47 This is trying to thwart progress.
00:22:47 --> 00:22:52 And so I think we should call it that as opposed to getting into some debate
00:22:52 --> 00:22:59 around DEI, you know, whether we need it or not. That's because that's not what this is about.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 So the job losses, I think, are
00:23:01 --> 00:23:06 very intentional. I don't want to be conspiratorial here around, you know.
00:23:07 --> 00:23:10 Trump's targeting of Black women, but we've seen it.
00:23:11 --> 00:23:14 And this is just another iteration of that. And it weakens the Democratic base,
00:23:15 --> 00:23:18 which, you know, so that's what I think.
00:23:18 --> 00:23:21 I think we need to be connecting the dots and more intentionally.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:27 Yeah, it's definitely has not only economic, but political ramifications.
00:23:28 --> 00:23:31 And that was one of the things I was trying to tell people is like,
00:23:31 --> 00:23:35 Look, if if Project 2025 is enacted,
00:23:36 --> 00:23:42 then black folks are going to suffer the most because the biggest employer of
00:23:42 --> 00:23:44 black people in the United States is the federal government.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 Right. And then next is state and local government.
00:23:48 --> 00:23:53 So when you're talking about cutting government jobs, you're impacting our community.
00:23:53 --> 00:23:59 And some folks, like you said, didn't connect the dots, but they're coloring
00:23:59 --> 00:24:01 in the lines now. They've been figuring it out.
00:24:02 --> 00:24:08 And so hopefully we can get in there and do something over the next three and
00:24:08 --> 00:24:09 a half years. But we'll see.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:12 Yeah, I'm not, you know, we'll see.
00:24:14 --> 00:24:19 You stated earlier this year that women hold significant political power,
00:24:19 --> 00:24:24 Yet policy choices and deepening disparities prevent them from fully realizing it.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:26 So my question out of that is,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:31 do you expect more women to emerge as candidates in the 2026 elections?
00:24:32 --> 00:24:37 Yeah, I think so. And I worked with, we're very closely with a couple organizations
00:24:37 --> 00:24:40 focused on getting women elected to office.
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 I work closely with Vote Run Lead.
00:24:43 --> 00:24:48 And yeah, I think more women are raising their hand to run more now than ever.
00:24:48 --> 00:24:51 I mean, I think everybody, if you want to run for office, you know,
00:24:52 --> 00:24:56 Eric, you did it. I mean, I couldn't do it. It's just too much.
00:24:56 --> 00:24:59 But if you feel like you want to do it, I think you should do it.
00:24:59 --> 00:25:05 I do think that there's some other structural issues that we need to deal with
00:25:05 --> 00:25:08 to make running and winning possible.
00:25:09 --> 00:25:14 So the gerrymandering issue, you know, some other structural reforms,
00:25:14 --> 00:25:19 campaign finance reform, some new things like rank choice voting makes it easier
00:25:19 --> 00:25:21 in terms of representation.
00:25:22 --> 00:25:27 You know, there are a few things that, yeah, run, but, you know,
00:25:27 --> 00:25:29 it's still very hard to run and win.
00:25:29 --> 00:25:33 And then when you get there, Or you don't have any power because,
00:25:33 --> 00:25:36 you know, you just got there.
00:25:36 --> 00:25:41 And so how do we fix that so that if we elect them, we actually do get the right
00:25:41 --> 00:25:44 people in office, they can actually do something or change.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:49 I mean, you know, at the national level, we see it. It's just a high level of
00:25:49 --> 00:25:50 dysfunction all around.
00:25:52 --> 00:25:54 On both sides. I'm not going to say it's just the Republicans.
00:25:54 --> 00:25:59 I think Democrats are also lost their way too.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:05 But when it all comes down to it, Democrats don't have any power.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:11 You know, I mean, I don't know if you just, you know, I was reading the news.
00:26:11 --> 00:26:14 I only read the headlines now. And, you know, if I want to go deep, I will.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:20 But Trump is about to ask the Department of Justice, and he's going to get it
00:26:20 --> 00:26:26 for $230 million to cover his legal fees for his impeachment trials or,
00:26:26 --> 00:26:29 you know, and he's going to get it.
00:26:29 --> 00:26:33 I said, this man is robbing us blind, but he wrote, he did it the first time
00:26:33 --> 00:26:36 and he's back with more power and more authority.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:39 And he is lining his pockets and so are his friends.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:43 And who do we go see about that? That's the cold part about it.
00:26:43 --> 00:26:46 As my father would say, who do we go see about that?
00:26:47 --> 00:26:51 And we don't even, there are no levers right now, as far as I can see.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:58 You know, to address this. And our leaders cannot, you know, or at least they're not.
00:27:00 --> 00:27:06 So run for office, but, you know, it feels hard.
00:27:06 --> 00:27:12 One of the things, Doc, that I'd say, I think I've only told one person that
00:27:12 --> 00:27:14 told me they wanted to run for office not to run.
00:27:14 --> 00:27:20 And that was because they had run several times before and they had some family
00:27:20 --> 00:27:23 issues. And I said, you need to focus on that because you're not going to be
00:27:23 --> 00:27:26 able to do that and run effectively if you do that.
00:27:26 --> 00:27:32 Other than that, I tell people to run. Now, the trick is getting people to understand
00:27:32 --> 00:27:37 that once you get elected, that's when the hard part, running for all things.
00:27:39 --> 00:27:43 And then the other thing I remind people is that in the land of the blind,
00:27:44 --> 00:27:49 the one-eyed man is, or the one-eyed woman in this case is king or queen, right? Right.
00:27:49 --> 00:27:55 So you need to not only learn how to run for the position, but you need to learn
00:27:55 --> 00:27:58 the position before you take that oath.
00:27:58 --> 00:28:02 You need to understand what powers you have, understand the rules,
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 especially if you get into a legislative body.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:12 Right. Because my personal experience, because I had that knowledge once I was
00:28:12 --> 00:28:15 voting on stuff and speaking against bills, my machine wasn't even working.
00:28:15 --> 00:28:19 Right. I had to physically tell them yes or no. On the bill.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:27 So the more prepared you are going in, I think kind of negates some of the,
00:28:27 --> 00:28:33 for lack of a better word, impotence that you might feel getting in that position. Right.
00:28:33 --> 00:28:40 I think that that's the key. So training, you know, education is the is the ultimate thing.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 But we can do a whole show about that. I'm gonna keep going because I know you got other things to do.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 What are your thoughts concerning the Trump administration's threat to go after
00:28:49 --> 00:28:52 nonprofits that don't jive with his agenda?
00:28:53 --> 00:28:58 Well, you know, I'm also of the mind, like, so some, you know,
00:28:58 --> 00:29:03 you know, I work in this sector, I get funding from foundations,
00:29:03 --> 00:29:04 and there's a lot of fear.
00:29:05 --> 00:29:12 And so there's some organizations and some foundations that are preemptively
00:29:12 --> 00:29:16 complying or changing, you know, the language on their websites.
00:29:16 --> 00:29:24 They are not funding organizations that they funded because they don't want to raise scrutiny.
00:29:25 --> 00:29:29 And I think that that's not the way we should be thinking about this.
00:29:29 --> 00:29:33 I think we need to say, okay, do it.
00:29:33 --> 00:29:36 Because you're not doing anything wrong.
00:29:37 --> 00:29:43 So let us engage. Let us come after me.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:50 And let's go. Let's engage because I think by backing down,
00:29:50 --> 00:29:56 by preemptively complying, we send the message that there is something wrong
00:29:56 --> 00:29:58 about the work that we're doing.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:02 There is something wrong about what foundations fund.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:10 There is something not right about wanting justice, equity, and fighting back
00:30:10 --> 00:30:13 against a repressive administration.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:20 And by not complying, we send the message that I think the right message that,
00:30:21 --> 00:30:22 well, what are you going to do?
00:30:22 --> 00:30:25 Like, what's the end game?
00:30:26 --> 00:30:29 I think people haven't thought, like, what is the end game? So the end game
00:30:29 --> 00:30:31 is you're going to lose your status.
00:30:31 --> 00:30:36 Well, then maybe we also need to be thinking about new ways of running organizations
00:30:36 --> 00:30:40 and foundations that are not dependent on this one code in our tax code.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:47 You know, so it's scary. It's a real scary time, I think, for organizations.
00:30:47 --> 00:30:51 By scary, I mean fearful. Like they're running, people are running scared or
00:30:51 --> 00:30:52 preparing and lowering up.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:56 You know, even when I get grants now, I mean, you just spend so much time in
00:30:56 --> 00:30:59 legal making sure that every, you know.
00:31:01 --> 00:31:06 And I just wrote about this yesterday. Funders are freeze frozen.
00:31:07 --> 00:31:14 They're not giving. So they're essentially, he is essentially indirectly killing whole sectors,
00:31:14 --> 00:31:21 whole sectors of work because funders have frozen and have stopped giving money
00:31:21 --> 00:31:23 or they're giving money to other things.
00:31:24 --> 00:31:30 Like they've taken it from racial equity work or women's issues or health and
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 put it into stuff like art and AI and technology.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:39 Whole foundations have pivoted to AI technology. I'm like, what?
00:31:40 --> 00:31:45 So, or, you know, you have really big Democratic funders or liberal funders
00:31:45 --> 00:31:47 who I personally feel are turncoats,
00:31:48 --> 00:31:55 like the one Mark Benioff, who was a huge funder of liberal causes, progressive causes,
00:31:56 --> 00:32:02 Salesforce, who has now offered to help ICE figure out how to hire people.
00:32:02 --> 00:32:07 More effectively So he has Again It's where the political winds are turning
00:32:07 --> 00:32:13 And for me That also sends a message about To me About my work About Just how
00:32:13 --> 00:32:18 disposable And vulnerable It could You know It is,
00:32:19 --> 00:32:23 Well, you might be right on the Salesforce guy, but he might be working.
00:32:23 --> 00:32:29 He might be trying to be the enemy behind the lines because what the latest
00:32:29 --> 00:32:33 report I just heard is that the ICE agents can't do pushups.
00:32:34 --> 00:32:39 They can't pass a physical test. So maybe he's like, yeah, I'll help you find
00:32:39 --> 00:32:42 these people. Let me get the fattest, slowest.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:47 He might be gumming up the system. He might be gumming up the system.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:49 So, you know, we don't know.
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 But, you know, I always try to think positive of some people.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:59 But I do agree with your assessment about giving in before, because, you know, that's it.
00:33:01 --> 00:33:04 We've been told, those of us that pay attention to those things,
00:33:04 --> 00:33:11 that the easiest way for a dictator to take power is to acquiesce in advance.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:18 And it's like, okay, that makes sense. It's like, don't give in to the person.
00:33:19 --> 00:33:25 Fight them all the way to the end. I mean, legends and historic figures have
00:33:25 --> 00:33:27 emerged because they fought to the end.
00:33:28 --> 00:33:33 Those of you who profess to be Christian, I mean, Jesus was flipping tables at the temple.
00:33:33 --> 00:33:38 I mean, anyway, again, don't let me get carried away on your soapbox.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:40 Let's talk about your work.
00:33:41 --> 00:33:46 And what kind of hope that you're finding in doing this kind of work?
00:33:46 --> 00:33:52 Because even though the times are challenging, what is it that you see that
00:33:52 --> 00:33:59 keeps you going and give you the hope that things are going to change?
00:33:59 --> 00:34:02 Well, because they always change, you know, they have to change.
00:34:04 --> 00:34:08 Sometimes when I look at the news or I read a headline or I see what's going
00:34:08 --> 00:34:10 on, I'm like, oh, my God, this is bad.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:17 But what gives me hope, what gives me inspiration is that we,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:24 the collective we, have come out on the other side of other things.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:27 You know, we have been through a civil war, let us not forget.
00:34:27 --> 00:34:32 We have been through Jim Crow. We have been, you know, I mean,
00:34:32 --> 00:34:38 these times are bad, but I do think we do understand what the arc is here.
00:34:39 --> 00:34:42 I think what's different is that.
00:34:43 --> 00:34:52 If I were being really honest here, there are some people who benefit from the
00:34:52 --> 00:34:54 stratification and benefit from proximity.
00:34:55 --> 00:34:59 You know, everything is very self-interest, like what's in it for me?
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 And you saw that in the 2024 election.
00:35:03 --> 00:35:08 And so there's the idea of a collective, like I'm going to, my fate is tied
00:35:08 --> 00:35:11 to your fate. What happens to you happens to me.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:18 We don't in our in the public imagination or the way we think about things that's
00:35:18 --> 00:35:23 not that's not our leading frame right now It's what are you going to do for me?
00:35:23 --> 00:35:27 What do I get out of this? Well, if it's not impacting my family or what's going
00:35:27 --> 00:35:32 on, I don't I don't really care about it and it's very self-interested politics
00:35:32 --> 00:35:37 or a way of Thinking about what's happening.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:42 So if we were in danger of anything, I would say that, you know,
00:35:43 --> 00:35:44 are not getting to the other side.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:50 It's because we're fragmented or, you know, people are thinking about themselves.
00:35:51 --> 00:35:59 So what gives me hope is trying to figure out how to bring people together and
00:35:59 --> 00:36:00 coalition and connection.
00:36:00 --> 00:36:03 And I do believe our fates are tied.
00:36:03 --> 00:36:08 You know, I've always believed that. I mean, I, when in my early 20s or,
00:36:08 --> 00:36:11 you know, I would show up for anybody's march, you know, immigration march,
00:36:11 --> 00:36:15 I'm there, IMF, I'm there, you know, you know, when we on there, you know.
00:36:16 --> 00:36:21 So because I really believe that we, you know, we might, it might be this issue,
00:36:22 --> 00:36:23 but the underlying values,
00:36:24 --> 00:36:28 the underlying belief system, we all share, you know, and I'm not,
00:36:29 --> 00:36:32 I'm having a hard time sort of trying to pull that thread together.
00:36:32 --> 00:36:37 But I'm optimistic that I wake up every day thinking about like.
00:36:38 --> 00:36:42 What's your part today? Like, what are you going to say? What,
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 you know, so it's my writing, it's my organizing, it's my research.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:52 I think all that, you know, gives the people a different way to think about
00:36:52 --> 00:36:55 a topic or a subject or, you know, increases understanding.
00:36:55 --> 00:37:00 So, you know, so I'm over here doing my part. So I think, and showing up even
00:37:00 --> 00:37:03 for the rest, you know, no Kings, I don't care if it's, you know,
00:37:03 --> 00:37:05 you tell me another march is next week, I'll be there, you know,
00:37:06 --> 00:37:08 because that's what we have to do. Yeah, I think.
00:37:09 --> 00:37:14 And that's that's something I'm probably going to address in an editorial or something like that.
00:37:14 --> 00:37:19 But when I was sitting there listening to you, I was thinking about we kind
00:37:19 --> 00:37:23 of line up more on coincidence than we do on consciousness.
00:37:24 --> 00:37:30 Right. It just so happens that if my health care is impacted and your health
00:37:30 --> 00:37:36 care is impacted, then we both get together and protest about our health care being impacted.
00:37:36 --> 00:37:43 It's not that it's like from Jump Street, the whole concept coming down should
00:37:43 --> 00:37:47 have been stopped before it got to the point where it impacted me or you. Right.
00:37:47 --> 00:37:55 That we should have had that moral clarity to fight for something first before it got to me.
00:37:55 --> 00:37:57 And now I got to make emergency decisions.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 Right. So anyway.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:04 Well, people think it's not going to. And that's again, I don't I don't want
00:38:04 --> 00:38:07 to, you know, people think it's like I mean, you've heard people.
00:38:08 --> 00:38:11 Well, you know, some people you heard people say like, well,
00:38:11 --> 00:38:16 I didn't think, you know, it was going to happen to me. or I was going to lose
00:38:16 --> 00:38:20 my job or, you know, I thought he was going to take those immigrants away,
00:38:21 --> 00:38:22 not my, you know, and it's like.
00:38:23 --> 00:38:29 Okay, you know, you know, so, you know, it's just, that's what's problematic
00:38:29 --> 00:38:33 that people, even in 2024, when they were going in the voting booth,
00:38:34 --> 00:38:37 couldn't see the connections. They were like, that has nothing to do with me.
00:38:37 --> 00:38:43 And here we are, like, it's, everybody's hurting. The economy's hurting.
00:38:43 --> 00:38:51 You know, I'm a, I get my, my health insurance through an exchange because it's, It's easier that way.
00:38:53 --> 00:38:56 That's about to go away for everybody. If you're self-employed,
00:38:57 --> 00:39:06 if you're elderly, farmers, truckers, I mean, everybody without employer-related insurance.
00:39:06 --> 00:39:09 Five million people will be impacted right off the cuff.
00:39:09 --> 00:39:13 And it has a trickling effect. Like, everybody's premiums are going to go up,
00:39:13 --> 00:39:15 even if you have employer-covered insurance.
00:39:17 --> 00:39:22 So I really wish that people would have connected the dots sooner.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:27 I'm hoping that in the coming months, in the coming years, that they will.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:34 So one of the things that you're doing, because this is at the point where I
00:39:34 --> 00:39:36 asked my guests to promote stuff.
00:39:36 --> 00:39:40 One of the things you're doing to try to help people connect the dots is this
00:39:40 --> 00:39:42 new sub stack that you got going on, the Perfect 10.
00:39:43 --> 00:39:50 So talk about that. And then, you know, how people can subscribe to it and all that.
00:39:50 --> 00:39:53 And then if people want to reach out to you and your organization,
00:39:54 --> 00:39:58 Future Forward Women, just just go ahead and make your appeal appeal.
00:39:59 --> 00:40:04 So Future for Women is about building women's power and influence across all
00:40:04 --> 00:40:09 50 states. We work on a range of issues, economic justice, health equity,
00:40:10 --> 00:40:11 reproductive rights and justice.
00:40:12 --> 00:40:15 And we need your voice. We need you engaged.
00:40:16 --> 00:40:20 We need you reading our reports. We need you sharing our reports and our actions.
00:40:20 --> 00:40:22 So that's the first thing.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:28 And again, this is a, it seems to be a very dark time. But one of the things
00:40:28 --> 00:40:33 I'm very clear about is that to get where we want to go, we need to be inspired,
00:40:33 --> 00:40:37 we need to be leading with vision, and it needs to be rooted in the lives of everyday people.
00:40:37 --> 00:40:41 And so that's our philosophy and our work.
00:40:41 --> 00:40:47 The Perfect Ten, the newsletter, it's commentary. It's my writing.
00:40:47 --> 00:40:51 It's my take on some of these issues and what's happening and helping to connect
00:40:51 --> 00:40:53 the dots and asking the questions.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:58 So one of the things that's true, and you know this, Erik, because,
00:40:58 --> 00:41:05 you know, you have your podcast, is that I've been really shocked by the media.
00:41:06 --> 00:41:10 People say it's mainstream media, but we're going to call them the media corporations
00:41:10 --> 00:41:14 because that's what you have to know because you know that they're driven by the bottom line.
00:41:14 --> 00:41:20 And so if you look across these big corporations, these media corporations,
00:41:21 --> 00:41:25 you know, all the voices, all the black and brown voices, black women,
00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 black male voices have disappeared.
00:41:27 --> 00:41:32 So you're not getting the take on what's happening. You're not getting the analysis
00:41:32 --> 00:41:36 that you need to be able to inform an opinion.
00:41:37 --> 00:41:43 And NBC, for example, just cut all of their diversity, I'm putting diversity
00:41:43 --> 00:41:46 in quotes, you can't see that, writers in sections.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:54 And so what you're left with are people like you, Erik, me, Joyann Reed,
00:41:55 --> 00:41:59 Karen, who got fired from the Washington Post for calling Charlie Kirk.
00:41:59 --> 00:42:03 She didn't say anything She just reposted his tweet All on Substack,
00:42:04 --> 00:42:09 giving that analysis that you would see on any news station or you used to be
00:42:09 --> 00:42:11 able to see when you turn on the TV.
00:42:12 --> 00:42:16 So it's the perfect 10, 10 issues impacting women's lives.
00:42:17 --> 00:42:23 And, you know, follow me, read me, share it. It's fun. I think I'm funny and
00:42:23 --> 00:42:25 insightful and, you know, it's great.
00:42:25 --> 00:42:29 But most importantly, I don't care what you do. I just want you to do something.
00:42:30 --> 00:42:34 I want you to get out there, you know, go to the No Kings March or don't.
00:42:34 --> 00:42:37 Talk to your neighbor, you know, volunteer.
00:42:37 --> 00:42:40 We need everybody doing everything in their own way.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:47 Yeah. Well, Dr. C. Nicole Mason, it's always an honor to talk to you.
00:42:47 --> 00:42:56 And I really am pleased that you follow the rule that once you've been invited,
00:42:56 --> 00:42:57 you're welcome to come back.
00:42:58 --> 00:43:01 And you know I just obviously as
00:43:01 --> 00:43:04 long as I've got this podcast I don't intend this
00:43:04 --> 00:43:07 to be the last time we talk even now I just
00:43:07 --> 00:43:10 I just feel good that there are sisters out
00:43:10 --> 00:43:15 there like you that are fighting and you're fighting intelligently and you're
00:43:15 --> 00:43:21 fighting ferociously at the same time and uh you know we're we're here to keep
00:43:21 --> 00:43:27 each other encouraged and I hope that you know what you've said today gives
00:43:27 --> 00:43:30 people encouragement and gives them some food for thought.
00:43:30 --> 00:43:33 So again, thank you for coming on the podcast again. I appreciate it.
00:43:34 --> 00:43:39 Thank you so much, Erik. And yeah, I can't wait to come back. Have me back.
00:43:40 --> 00:43:42 All right, guys, we're going to catch y'all on.
00:44:02 --> 00:44:09 All right, and we are back. And so now it's time for my next guest, Maura Gillespie.
00:44:09 --> 00:44:14 Maura Gillespie has over 12 years of government service as a Capitol Hill veteran.
00:44:14 --> 00:44:18 She most recently served as the deputy chief of staff for now former Congressman
00:44:18 --> 00:44:24 Adam Kinzinger, where she led his office as the head of communications for nearly seven years.
00:44:25 --> 00:44:30 Prior to joining the Kinzinger team, Mara worked for former Speaker of the House John A.
00:44:30 --> 00:44:35 Boehner in his administrative and press operations over a five-year span.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:40 As a founding partner of the Country First movement, led by Adam Kinzinger,
00:44:41 --> 00:44:45 Maura served as the chief spokesperson and chief strategist for the organization,
00:44:45 --> 00:44:50 engaging with people from across the political spectrum who felt lost and frustrated
00:44:50 --> 00:44:55 by the hyper-partisan political landscape we find ourselves in today.
00:44:55 --> 00:44:58 An expert on communication, strategy, and messaging,
00:44:59 --> 00:45:04 Maura oversaw a significant portfolio for an active and often outspoken member
00:45:04 --> 00:45:08 of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, the House Energy and Commerce Committee,
00:45:09 --> 00:45:14 and the Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol.
00:45:14 --> 00:45:19 Originally from the Garden State, Maura continues to engage with the political
00:45:19 --> 00:45:24 process through her consulting company, BlueStack Strategies LLC,
00:45:24 --> 00:45:29 and interviews by sharing insight from her unique congressional experience.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:34 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:45:34 --> 00:45:37 on this podcast, Maura Gillespie.
00:45:48 --> 00:45:51 All right. Maura Gillespie, how are you doing?
00:45:52 --> 00:45:57 I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, Erik. Well, as stated before,
00:45:57 --> 00:46:00 I am really, really glad to get you.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:06 I've been kind of following you. There's a number of people I watch on TV and
00:46:06 --> 00:46:07 pay attention to when they come on.
00:46:08 --> 00:46:13 And you have been one of them. I think that you have a very,
00:46:13 --> 00:46:19 very unique experience in dissecting what is going on in politics and what has
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21 been going on over the last few years.
00:46:22 --> 00:46:28 And so when I was finally able to get you on, I was like, yay, I got it.
00:46:28 --> 00:46:32 So I'm really, really happy to talk to you today.
00:46:32 --> 00:46:38 Well, thank you. So how I normally do this thing, I do a couple of icebreakers.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:44 So the first icebreaker I throw on the guest is a quote And your quote is With
00:46:44 --> 00:46:50 the highs, the lows, and all the in-betweens Everything happens for a reason
00:46:50 --> 00:46:52 What does that quote mean to you?
00:46:53 --> 00:46:57 You know, throughout my either life and also through my political career,
00:46:57 --> 00:47:01 there were times where I really wanted one thing to turn out how I wanted it.
00:47:01 --> 00:47:06 But I am a person of faith. And so I know that as much as I want something to
00:47:06 --> 00:47:11 happen or as much as I think it should happen, a lot of times it's just not up to me.
00:47:11 --> 00:47:17 And it always does happen for the right reasons. And we may not be able to see it in the moment.
00:47:17 --> 00:47:21 But the big picture, I believe that even in our lowest of lows,
00:47:22 --> 00:47:24 there's a reason why. we're going through that at that particular time,
00:47:24 --> 00:47:28 because what we're going to see on the other end is going to make it all clear.
00:47:28 --> 00:47:36 And then so much more poignant almost in that it was worth it because of what we ended up with.
00:47:36 --> 00:47:40 So I think when I think about my time with Boehner, I didn't want that to end.
00:47:41 --> 00:47:42 I didn't want it to end the way it did.
00:47:42 --> 00:47:47 And I worry about what was next. And a person likes to plan and likes to know what's going to happen.
00:47:48 --> 00:47:50 And a lot of times you just can't, Especially in politics, which is funny that
00:47:50 --> 00:47:53 I'm, you know, in politics, you can't always plan for it.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:59 But I do believe that the highs, the lows, they all teach us that it happens
00:47:59 --> 00:48:01 for a reason and we're better because of it. Yeah.
00:48:02 --> 00:48:06 Yeah. You know, I think we're on the same faith journey and,
00:48:07 --> 00:48:12 you know, the way that it was always colloquialized is it's going to be better
00:48:12 --> 00:48:13 on the other side of the mountain.
00:48:14 --> 00:48:17 Right. Yeah. And so I definitely relate to that.
00:48:17 --> 00:48:22 So the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:29 So I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20. 11. Okay.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:37 That was just an easy one for me. Where do you go to check a fact that you see,
00:48:37 --> 00:48:40 hear, or read? See, hear, or read.
00:48:42 --> 00:48:47 I will Google it first, right? If I have a question or type it in.
00:48:48 --> 00:48:52 And then I usually will read at least three different things to make sure.
00:48:52 --> 00:48:56 So three different sources, whether that is an article that pops up first,
00:48:56 --> 00:49:00 scroll down a little further. But I usually try and read at least three different
00:49:00 --> 00:49:04 things on one topic to get a better picture of what's going on. Yeah.
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 How did you decide that you wanted to make a career out of politics?
00:49:09 --> 00:49:13 When I was really little, I want to say first grade, I wanted to be a lawyer.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:18 And largely because my great uncle Mike and my father are both lawyers.
00:49:19 --> 00:49:23 And I thought I was really good at arguing. And so I figured this is great for me.
00:49:24 --> 00:49:27 I'm going to be a lawyer just like them. I'm really good at arguing and making
00:49:27 --> 00:49:30 my case and asking questions and things like that.
00:49:30 --> 00:49:37 And as I got older and then through school, I sort of navigated towards history
00:49:37 --> 00:49:40 and really enjoyed learning and writing.
00:49:41 --> 00:49:44 I was one of those weird kids that really liked writing papers as I got,
00:49:44 --> 00:49:49 you know, into high school and things. I did presidential classroom in high
00:49:49 --> 00:49:52 school where you do almost like a mock Congress down in Washington, D.C.
00:49:53 --> 00:49:59 And I knew I wanted to be in D.C. then. And my uncle had been in politics and he's my godfather.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:03 And so I was also really inspired by him and his journey and his role.
00:50:03 --> 00:50:08 And just I think those tying those two things of having wanted to be a lawyer,
00:50:08 --> 00:50:13 but then also really enjoyed the writing and being part of something bigger than myself.
00:50:13 --> 00:50:16 Politics was just that natural fit for me. And so in high school,
00:50:16 --> 00:50:21 I knew I wanted to pursue political science and history in college.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:25 And my sisters both went to school in D.C., so I chose to go to school in Baltimore,
00:50:26 --> 00:50:30 or Baltimore, if you're from the area, and make my way down there.
00:50:30 --> 00:50:33 But I wanted to have my own experience in my own little city.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:39 So I'm happy with how I did it, but was able to do internships and be part of the political scene.
00:50:39 --> 00:50:42 But it started at a young age. I also wanted to be the first female president
00:50:42 --> 00:50:46 when I was in first grade. So I had real, you know, aspirations as a young kid.
00:50:47 --> 00:50:53 Yeah, I definitely can relate to that. I think and I tell this story a lot and
00:50:53 --> 00:50:55 some people don't believe me because of the age.
00:50:55 --> 00:51:00 But ever since I was three years old, I wanted to be president of the United
00:51:00 --> 00:51:03 States and to date myself. It was like.
00:51:04 --> 00:51:07 I had a set of world book encyclopedias. Yes.
00:51:08 --> 00:51:12 And it was like the coolest section was the president section because the first
00:51:12 --> 00:51:15 two pages are just the portraits of the presidents. And I said,
00:51:15 --> 00:51:17 I want my picture right there.
00:51:17 --> 00:51:22 And it was like, you know, I knew all presidential trivia, all that kind of stuff.
00:51:22 --> 00:51:28 I mean, I just really, outside of baseball, that was my passion as a young kid.
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 Isn't it funny that, yeah. No, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just saying,
00:51:33 --> 00:51:37 you know, and I didn't have the background like you where I didn't have anybody
00:51:37 --> 00:51:41 in my immediate family engaged in politics, but they always voted.
00:51:42 --> 00:51:46 And so I would go down to the polling place and my great aunt would sit me down
00:51:46 --> 00:51:49 and while she was babysitting me and we watched the news.
00:51:50 --> 00:51:53 So I was learning all the people through the news and stuff as a child.
00:51:53 --> 00:51:58 So, yeah, I just, I just, that's how I got indoctrinated.
00:51:58 --> 00:52:03 And like I tell people, my precinct captain was also my Little League baseball coach up in Chicago.
00:52:03 --> 00:52:09 So it was just always in my environment. But, you know, it's still kind of amazed
00:52:09 --> 00:52:14 people that I pursued politics the way I did. Absolutely.
00:52:15 --> 00:52:19 Yeah, especially just having the surroundings and you just gravitating towards it.
00:52:19 --> 00:52:22 But I also think what you said about having an encyclopedia,
00:52:22 --> 00:52:25 it does make me laugh because I have, you know, my little cousins,
00:52:25 --> 00:52:29 nieces, nephews, they're never going to know what it was like to go through
00:52:29 --> 00:52:32 the encyclopedia and have these ginormous books that at some point in time over
00:52:32 --> 00:52:36 the last 10, 15 years, I think my parents used it to like, I think their like
00:52:36 --> 00:52:37 baseboard broke or something.
00:52:37 --> 00:52:41 They're like using it to hold up the baseboard of a bed, like these massive
00:52:41 --> 00:52:43 Britannica encyclopedia books.
00:52:44 --> 00:52:47 Yeah, yeah. They don't. It's like what? All this.
00:52:47 --> 00:52:51 These were like books. How many books did you have? I know. It's pretty.
00:52:51 --> 00:52:53 It was in alphabetical order. It was pretty, pretty.
00:52:55 --> 00:53:00 All right. So let's what what what have you retained from being on Team Boehner
00:53:00 --> 00:53:05 and Team Kinzinger that has influenced you the most in your political career?
00:53:06 --> 00:53:12 There's so many Boehnerisms that come to mind, but I just think the way that he also has Boehner.
00:53:12 --> 00:53:16 So Boehner, when from when I first started as an intern during my college years,
00:53:16 --> 00:53:19 I interned on the House floor.
00:53:20 --> 00:53:22 So through the Republican cloakroom, which is a really unique
00:53:22 --> 00:53:25 internship to have but because you're just you're
00:53:25 --> 00:53:28 you're there when members are taking phone calls in these phone
00:53:28 --> 00:53:32 booths because they're not supposed to have their phones out on the floor you're helping
00:53:32 --> 00:53:34 them figure out which votes they're on and different things like
00:53:34 --> 00:53:38 speaking arrangements and speaking order for house
00:53:38 --> 00:53:41 floor speeches but I think that what I saw
00:53:41 --> 00:53:44 from that point through Boehner's time as speaker and
00:53:44 --> 00:53:48 till the very end and even till now you know he really does
00:53:48 --> 00:53:51 treat everyone the same way so whether
00:53:51 --> 00:53:53 I was an intern or if I were the cheapest staff he really
00:53:53 --> 00:53:57 was just himself and I respected
00:53:57 --> 00:54:00 that immensely I also love that he had his door open he
00:54:00 --> 00:54:03 had a really good friendship with several members but Democrats would
00:54:03 --> 00:54:07 come at the time I remember when he was speaker Harry Reid's office was the
00:54:07 --> 00:54:12 senate majority leaders and there was a way to go from Harry Reid's office around
00:54:12 --> 00:54:16 to the back and then go into Boehner's office if he wanted to not go in the
00:54:16 --> 00:54:18 hallway where the press was and there were plenty of members who would come
00:54:18 --> 00:54:22 back there and want to chat with him and the door was always open.
00:54:22 --> 00:54:29 And I think I take away from that is the ability to disagree without being disagreeable,
00:54:29 --> 00:54:33 but open to conversation, open to having that conversation, even if you're not
00:54:33 --> 00:54:34 going to end up in agreement.
00:54:35 --> 00:54:39 You'll know where the other person stands by allowing a conversation to happen.
00:54:39 --> 00:54:43 And so I think that's just the way that he operated and wanted to take a small
00:54:43 --> 00:54:46 step forward, even if it was a small step forward, just to get the ball moving,
00:54:47 --> 00:54:50 recognizing that you can't do everything on your own and that you need to be
00:54:50 --> 00:54:52 able to be willing to work with others to get there.
00:54:53 --> 00:54:56 Boehner taught me a lot of things and being part of his team taught me a lot of things. I
00:54:56 --> 00:55:00 think with Kinzinger you know it was such a interesting time
00:55:00 --> 00:55:02 to go from where I started with him you know beginning of
00:55:02 --> 00:55:06 2016 through to when he
00:55:06 --> 00:55:10 was on the January 6th committee and doing those hearings and just you know
00:55:10 --> 00:55:15 remembering that you know something that I told him was you know when he was
00:55:15 --> 00:55:19 asked to be on the January 6th committee it was something about it's a tough
00:55:19 --> 00:55:23 decision to make but when you look back on it will you be able to sit look at
00:55:23 --> 00:55:25 yourself in the mirror and be proud of what you did.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:30 And I think of that a lot. I think about when I go on TV interviews,
00:55:30 --> 00:55:33 I'm going to say what I believe because I'm not beholden to anything else but myself.
00:55:34 --> 00:55:40 And I think for a lot of us who work for Team Kinzinger, recognizing the importance
00:55:40 --> 00:55:43 of that moment, but also the importance of standing up for what you believe
00:55:43 --> 00:55:46 in and not being afraid of what the political fallout may be,
00:55:46 --> 00:55:49 but because you know that it's the right thing to do.
00:55:50 --> 00:55:55 And again, in the grand of things. You'd rather be true to who you are than be something else.
00:55:56 --> 00:55:59 I'll take that with me every day. Yeah, yeah.
00:55:59 --> 00:56:04 And that's, you know, when I think about those guys,
00:56:05 --> 00:56:08 even though we're on the opposite side of the aisle, you know,
00:56:09 --> 00:56:13 it just reminds me of when I was in the legislature and just the fact,
00:56:13 --> 00:56:15 you know, I didn't have the secret passageway.
00:56:15 --> 00:56:19 Because in Georgia, I found out there is a secret passageway between,
00:56:20 --> 00:56:24 well, it was like the chair of the Black Caucus had a secret passageway to the governor's office.
00:56:25 --> 00:56:28 I found that out. He picked that office because it had the passageway.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:35 But, you know, we had like the back couch. And I'll tell the story real quick.
00:56:35 --> 00:56:41 So when I moved to the back of the chamber, when I had enough seniority to pick my own seat,
00:56:42 --> 00:56:48 me and my Republican counterpart, Philip Gunn, who ended up being Speaker of
00:56:48 --> 00:56:52 the House after I was out, we were talking and then another guy came.
00:56:52 --> 00:56:55 I forgot, was it Steve Holland or somebody else? But anyway,
00:56:56 --> 00:56:59 it was about four of us eventually were talking in the back and we were standing.
00:57:01 --> 00:57:04 And one of us said, I can't remember which one. I don't think it was me.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:08 But one of us said, you know, it'd be nice to have a couch back here to just
00:57:08 --> 00:57:10 kind of sit back and talk instead of just standing.
00:57:10 --> 00:57:15 And the next day, I think there was a porter nearby that heard that because
00:57:15 --> 00:57:17 the next day there was a couch back there.
00:57:17 --> 00:57:20 And oh man, the meetings that we used to have back in the back,
00:57:21 --> 00:57:26 it was like voter ID or something about the budget or anything like that.
00:57:26 --> 00:57:29 We were solving the problem. Whatever was going on up in the front,
00:57:29 --> 00:57:32 we were working it out back in the back.
00:57:32 --> 00:57:34 So I definitely relate to that.
00:57:34 --> 00:57:40 And I miss that politics is not like that now, especially at the federal level. Me too.
00:57:41 --> 00:57:46 What are your thoughts on the No Kings protests that have happened this year?
00:57:47 --> 00:57:51 You know, I think it's really telling that so many people turned out.
00:57:52 --> 00:57:56 I've seen so many different takes on it. And speaking as a Republican,
00:57:56 --> 00:58:00 you know, I was disappointed with Speaker Johnson saying that it was a hate America.
00:58:01 --> 00:58:04 I think as we say it, it was a hate America rally is what he called it or something.
00:58:05 --> 00:58:07 I don't see how you could say that. And I'm saying this as a Republican.
00:58:07 --> 00:58:12 I don't see how you could see people who are frustrated with their government
00:58:12 --> 00:58:16 peacefully protesting and say they're unhappy with it.
00:58:16 --> 00:58:20 There's nothing more American than using your voice and expressing it's what
00:58:20 --> 00:58:24 I mean, if you think about America's foundation, how we came to be here,
00:58:24 --> 00:58:29 we're about to celebrate 250 years of this grand experiment of our democracy and this republic.
00:58:29 --> 00:58:32 And it all started with saying enough is enough.
00:58:32 --> 00:58:36 We're not OK with what this is. And we're we're we're advocating for a change.
00:58:37 --> 00:58:40 We're advocating for something different. And so you don't have to agree,
00:58:41 --> 00:58:44 and I'm speaking this to all people, you don't have to agree with them,
00:58:44 --> 00:58:46 with people who are protesting.
00:58:46 --> 00:58:50 You don't have to agree with them. But you cannot say that they don't have the right to do so.
00:58:50 --> 00:58:53 And I made this equation, because I don't think it's the same thing,
00:58:53 --> 00:58:58 obviously, what happened on January 6th turned horrifically violent and just...
00:58:59 --> 00:59:03 You know, it was an insurrection. And I know there's people who say that it wasn't, but it was.
00:59:03 --> 00:59:08 But what started out as a rally to say that they were feeling as though their
00:59:08 --> 00:59:10 voices weren't heard, they didn't agree with the government,
00:59:10 --> 00:59:11 they're upset with the government.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 And so initially, what started out as a rally, which is, you know,
00:59:16 --> 00:59:20 people who supported that, how can you then say that the people who are rallying
00:59:20 --> 00:59:23 against what they don't like, they feel like their voices aren't being heard,
00:59:23 --> 00:59:26 they're frustrated with the government, and they want to speak up about it.
00:59:26 --> 00:59:29 So I just think it's hypocritical to sit there and try and call it something else.
00:59:29 --> 00:59:32 But so I think that it's a good thing for Democrats to have this rallying cry
00:59:32 --> 00:59:35 because for a little while I feel as though Democrats have felt a little bit
00:59:35 --> 00:59:37 lost and kind of directionless.
00:59:37 --> 00:59:40 And this has given them something to really galvanize around.
00:59:40 --> 00:59:44 And it's it's bringing out, I mean, millions of people.
00:59:44 --> 00:59:46 It's just it's really impressive.
00:59:47 --> 00:59:51 Well, you know, if I was part of the press corps, I would have asked the speaker
00:59:51 --> 00:59:58 this question. What is the difference between a No Kings rally and a Tea Party rally?
00:59:59 --> 01:00:04 Mm hmm. Because, you know, the Democrats were not happy about the Tea Party
01:00:04 --> 01:00:09 rallies, but none of I don't remember any of them saying all these people are
01:00:09 --> 01:00:11 unpatriotic and all that stuff.
01:00:11 --> 01:00:15 It was like, hey, guys, we got a bunch of people out here in the streets that
01:00:15 --> 01:00:17 don't like what we're doing.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:21 And, you know, we got to figure out how we're going to navigate that. Right.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:27 And, you know, I don't even remember the Democrats really even saying anything
01:00:27 --> 01:00:32 about the Tea Party other than, you know, they were just, you know,
01:00:32 --> 01:00:35 dealing with particular policies about the protesters themselves.
01:00:35 --> 01:00:38 I don't remember that. Now, they may have. I don't know.
01:00:38 --> 01:00:42 But I don't remember that. I think we were we were at a different time where
01:00:42 --> 01:00:47 it was like, OK, well, these people out in the streets, that means that we got
01:00:47 --> 01:00:51 to mobilize our folks so, you know, we can get reelected, you know.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:55 And that was kind of the mood around the midterm, I guess, in 2010.
01:00:55 --> 01:01:04 So I don't know. I just, and it kind of leads to my next question about Charlie Kirk's assassination.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:10 And my question was, what was your hope or what is your hope about American
01:01:10 --> 01:01:13 politics in the aftermath of that?
01:01:13 --> 01:01:20 And I asked that because I saw something and I don't think I heard all of your
01:01:20 --> 01:01:25 interview, but it seemed like it was it kind of, you know, it touched you in a certain way.
01:01:26 --> 01:01:32 And you weren't crying emotional, but you you could I could tell that that bothered you a great deal.
01:01:32 --> 01:01:37 So just kind of talk about what was your thoughts like when you heard it happened
01:01:37 --> 01:01:40 and what would you like to see going forward?
01:01:42 --> 01:01:46 So I know the interview you're talking about, and it was, I was slated to do
01:01:46 --> 01:01:52 Bloomberg and prior, you know, to that incident happening, that tragedy happening.
01:01:52 --> 01:01:56 And so I went on air maybe less than an hour after I was confirmed that he was
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 killed. And I had seen the videos that were posted on X or Twitter.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:03 Not that I wanted to see them, but they were being, you know,
01:02:04 --> 01:02:09 posted in real time. And just the idea of that happening and then watching it
01:02:09 --> 01:02:14 happening just truly struck me for anyone in that situation.
01:02:14 --> 01:02:18 I mean, you or I were sitting out there talking at a group and that would happen.
01:02:18 --> 01:02:20 That's disgusting and horrific.
01:02:20 --> 01:02:24 And why is this political violence in this country and just violence in general?
01:02:24 --> 01:02:26 We have become so numb to it.
01:02:26 --> 01:02:29 And I, in that moment...
01:02:29 --> 01:02:35 Couldn't fathom that we've come this low, that we've come so low that we would
01:02:35 --> 01:02:38 go out to kill someone because of their political stances.
01:02:39 --> 01:02:43 I'm not defending anything that he has said at all, nor would I,
01:02:44 --> 01:02:51 because I don't largely agree with what he had said and what he espoused on his podcast.
01:02:51 --> 01:02:53 But it doesn't mean that I don't think he has the right to do so.
01:02:54 --> 01:02:58 I think he has that same right that any one of us has as far as using a platform
01:02:58 --> 01:03:02 to speak to people because of the fact that we live here in America.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:08 And my concern and my sadness came from the state of politics in general.
01:03:09 --> 01:03:10 You know, we talked about why
01:03:10 --> 01:03:12 I wanted to be in this in the first place is something bigger than myself.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:16 And then to see it devolve the way that it has, even from the time that I worked
01:03:16 --> 01:03:18 for John Boehner, it is devolved.
01:03:18 --> 01:03:21 You know, again, I talked about how much I enjoyed watching members of Congress
01:03:21 --> 01:03:25 from all walks of life and all political leanings come and talk to him or
01:03:26 --> 01:03:29 have a glass of wine or maybe, you know, have a cigarette because Boehner,
01:03:29 --> 01:03:31 you know, just whatever he, in
01:03:31 --> 01:03:34 that office, they were just able and comfortable to come and talk to him.
01:03:34 --> 01:03:36 In fact, they felt comfortable enough to knock on the door and say,
01:03:37 --> 01:03:39 hey, can I have a few minutes with them? Absolutely.
01:03:39 --> 01:03:43 I don't think that happens anymore. And that makes me sad for politics that
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 we, and you hear it from members who use this language where they talk about
01:03:48 --> 01:03:49 each other as if one of their enemies.
01:03:50 --> 01:03:53 And that shouldn't be the case. I don't think that we have.
01:03:54 --> 01:03:58 Gotten a handle on it yet. Obviously, what happened with Charlie Kirk shows
01:03:58 --> 01:04:00 me we certainly haven't.
01:04:00 --> 01:04:04 And I just don't know how much lower we can go till we hit the bottom,
01:04:04 --> 01:04:07 because I would have thought after January 6th, that was bottom, and then it wasn't.
01:04:07 --> 01:04:09 And so we've continued to hit further and further.
01:04:10 --> 01:04:15 And I mourn for what used to be normal political discourse.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:21 I hope for it again. And I think part of what this is and what I'm trying to
01:04:21 --> 01:04:24 do is to bring that back and to have normal conversations with people who,
01:04:25 --> 01:04:29 even when, and especially when we don't agree, how to be able to have a conversation.
01:04:29 --> 01:04:35 Because you can leave it there, right? We can say, I don't agree with you here, but I hear you.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:37 So thanks for sharing your viewpoint. Here's mine.
01:04:38 --> 01:04:40 That's okay to leave a conversation there. It doesn't need to have a resolution
01:04:40 --> 01:04:43 in terms of, let's now find a way for us to agree.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:46 We don't have to, but we can have conversations and continue on and then talk
01:04:46 --> 01:04:51 about, you know, the game tonight or what's going on this weekend.
01:04:51 --> 01:04:56 You know, it just, We've lost that ability and I I hope we can bring it back
01:04:56 --> 01:05:02 and I think that's my hope is that having broader civic engagement and reminding people that.
01:05:03 --> 01:05:09 Conversation and honest conversation without getting too emotional and too partisan
01:05:09 --> 01:05:10 will help us in the long run.
01:05:11 --> 01:05:17 Yeah. And, you know, that's exactly what I'm trying to do with this podcast.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:24 And I think there's others that are trying to do the same thing, but I don't know.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:31 I just, it's a harder road than I thought it would be.
01:05:32 --> 01:05:35 And when people say, well, Eric, are you going to get back in?
01:05:35 --> 01:05:36 You're going to run for something else?
01:05:37 --> 01:05:42 I said, I'm a dinosaur. I'm from that age where it's like, I could sit and have
01:05:42 --> 01:05:43 drinks with a Republican.
01:05:43 --> 01:05:48 I could, you know, play golf. We could talk about anything.
01:05:48 --> 01:05:51 And then we can sit there and debate about a particular issue,
01:05:51 --> 01:05:54 you know, and try to convince each other which way, because that's the only
01:05:54 --> 01:06:01 way you get stuff done in that kind of arena is that you've got to find out
01:06:01 --> 01:06:02 what people are thinking.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:08 You know, I was a crazy dude and when I ran for statewide office,
01:06:08 --> 01:06:12 it gave me a different perspective the next legislative session I showed up
01:06:12 --> 01:06:16 in because I was in everybody's district at one point campaigning.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:22 And so it's like, so that's why so-and-so votes the way he does or that's why
01:06:22 --> 01:06:26 she takes this position as opposed to, you know, some other stuff.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:31 So I just think We got to get back to a level of understanding.
01:06:32 --> 01:06:37 And, you know, I don't think bullets are designed for negotiation.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:45 That's kind of my thought process. Do you think Mamdani's populism is the future
01:06:45 --> 01:06:46 of the Democratic Party?
01:06:47 --> 01:06:52 On a broad scale, no, but I do think that his tactics, and I know it's been
01:06:52 --> 01:06:56 talked about by Democrats at large, but they realize that the grassroots efforts
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 and the meeting people where they are,
01:06:59 --> 01:07:03 which is really getting into, which I think is a tactic that most people should use.
01:07:03 --> 01:07:04 And it's kind of what you were just saying right then, right?
01:07:04 --> 01:07:05 You were meeting people where they were.
01:07:05 --> 01:07:09 You were going into their communities and you were understanding where they're
01:07:09 --> 01:07:13 coming from because you saw and you talked to people and you heard from them
01:07:13 --> 01:07:16 and heard what they were going through or what they were focused on or worried about.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:22 And I think what Mamdani did was he went to where people were and understood
01:07:22 --> 01:07:24 that they're hurting here.
01:07:24 --> 01:07:29 They're worried about this. And yes, he has his own aspirations.
01:07:29 --> 01:07:32 He has his own political feelings and things of that nature.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:37 And Democrats at large aren't going to agree with that. but him meeting people
01:07:37 --> 01:07:41 where they were and people where they are in New York City that's resonated
01:07:41 --> 01:07:45 and Democrats should absolutely adopt a more.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:50 Everyman approach to politics, which they haven't done in the last few cycles,
01:07:50 --> 01:07:55 and really focusing on people at the grassroots level, because it's something
01:07:55 --> 01:08:02 that can be clearly tapped into and also better represented if they listen to their constituents.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:09 Yeah, because, you know, first of all, that's the reason why I've admired you so,
01:08:09 --> 01:08:18 because that's very brilliant that it's not about the specific policies that he's espousing,
01:08:18 --> 01:08:24 but the fact that he's kind of talking to people, doing this retail politics,
01:08:24 --> 01:08:27 going door to door, listening to people.
01:08:27 --> 01:08:33 And so some of his ideas have shaped from what he's heard, whether they're realistic
01:08:33 --> 01:08:36 or not, whether they're attainable or not.
01:08:36 --> 01:08:41 The fact is, is that people, when they're going to that voting booth,
01:08:41 --> 01:08:46 say, I'm voting for that guy because he at least addressed something that has
01:08:46 --> 01:08:48 been bothering me for a long time.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:57 And, you know, he's different than Obama or Harold Washington to date myself.
01:08:57 --> 01:09:06 In Chicago, is that his campaign is not about a hope for an eloquent speaker
01:09:06 --> 01:09:12 or a dynamic representative of whether it's the United States or a particular city.
01:09:13 --> 01:09:18 He is being a true public servant.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:22 At least that's how he's carrying himself out. It's like, look, I want to be the mayor.
01:09:23 --> 01:09:27 If you were coming to the mayor's office, what would you complain about, right?
01:09:27 --> 01:09:32 And he's and he's and he's and he's trying his best to incorporate that in his thing.
01:09:32 --> 01:09:37 And it's and it's working for him. And I think other other Democrats need to
01:09:37 --> 01:09:39 do that. I heard somebody saying.
01:09:40 --> 01:09:48 That he was the embodiment of what people have been trying to tell Democrats that, you know,
01:09:48 --> 01:09:54 don't come across as a college professor giving a lecture about policy and this
01:09:54 --> 01:09:56 is why the universe works the way it does.
01:09:57 --> 01:10:00 That people don't want that. They don't want to feel like you're talking down to them.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:03 They want to feel like they're investing because their people are investing
01:10:03 --> 01:10:08 in you. People are giving their trust to you to handle that business because
01:10:08 --> 01:10:12 they don't have time to go to the Capitol building or City Hall and do that.
01:10:12 --> 01:10:19 But you asked for the job, so we want to trust that you can do it and have some integrity about it.
01:10:19 --> 01:10:23 Because even if you don't agree with his policies or his beliefs,
01:10:24 --> 01:10:28 a lot of times people gravitate to the fact that, well, you know,
01:10:28 --> 01:10:31 people have been jumping on him about that and he stood firm on that.
01:10:31 --> 01:10:33 Hey, I got to respect that.
01:10:33 --> 01:10:36 That sounds like to me that he's got integrity, you know?
01:10:36 --> 01:10:43 And so it's really, really simple, but it just seems so complicated to get political
01:10:43 --> 01:10:47 people in this day and age to figure that out. I don't know.
01:10:47 --> 01:10:50 No, and you're right. I mean, you can disagree with him, which I,
01:10:50 --> 01:10:54 you know, I don't live in New York City, but you can disagree with him on a whole host of things.
01:10:55 --> 01:10:57 But when you're in that voting booth and you've already had a conversation with
01:10:57 --> 01:11:02 him or you feel as though He heard you and he's willing to do the job and he's
01:11:02 --> 01:11:03 gonna at least really try.
01:11:04 --> 01:11:08 For you That can make you vote for him simply on that alone because again,
01:11:08 --> 01:11:11 you also look at your other options It's not great, right? Let's just be serious.
01:11:11 --> 01:11:15 It's not great So you're like, okay This guy really seems like he wants to try
01:11:15 --> 01:11:18 and he seems like he's gonna try and do a good job Like it may not I don't agree
01:11:18 --> 01:11:22 with everything But he seems like he heard me and he heard my community.
01:11:23 --> 01:11:25 Let's give it a go. You know, I think that there's more likely than not people
01:11:25 --> 01:11:31 who are in that boat, right? Who are saying, he seems like he wants to try, you know?
01:11:31 --> 01:11:35 I don't know that I agree with him on a lot of things, but I care about cost here.
01:11:35 --> 01:11:39 I care about, you know, my kids getting to school and having the bus system to go to.
01:11:39 --> 01:11:42 All right, let's give this a go. So I think that's part of it, too.
01:11:43 --> 01:11:48 Yeah, and see, I'm of an age where I remember when Kura Sliwa was cool,
01:11:48 --> 01:11:48 right? With the Guardian.
01:11:49 --> 01:11:55 I'm of an age. That beret. Yeah. And Mario Cuomo was, you know,
01:11:55 --> 01:11:59 it's like, oh, his son, you know, I'm thinking Cuomo's are going to be like
01:11:59 --> 01:12:00 the Kennedys. You know what I'm saying?
01:12:01 --> 01:12:08 Yeah. So, yeah, it's it's kind of disappointing. But politics is also about timing.
01:12:09 --> 01:12:14 And Mamdani is in the right place at the right time to be in the position that
01:12:14 --> 01:12:17 he's in. Who's winning the shutdown right now?
01:12:18 --> 01:12:21 Well, I can tell you, we're the ones who are losing, right? The American people
01:12:21 --> 01:12:23 are the ones that are losing. That's for sure.
01:12:23 --> 01:12:26 The scary part is that both sides think that they are winning.
01:12:27 --> 01:12:31 So you ask Democrats, they feel pretty confident that they are in a good place,
01:12:31 --> 01:12:36 that they are doing what's needed to galvanize their voters and their base to
01:12:36 --> 01:12:39 show that they're putting up this fight and fighting for them.
01:12:40 --> 01:12:44 Republicans stand firm in that Democrats are causing the shutdown and that they're
01:12:44 --> 01:12:46 the ones that started it.
01:12:46 --> 01:12:51 And that, you know, and I've even said this a couple times on TV, but, you know.
01:12:52 --> 01:12:55 When everyone gets so upset about not having a conversation and the president
01:12:55 --> 01:12:59 not being willing to talk, you know, with Democratic leaders,
01:12:59 --> 01:13:01 it is what happened, you know, in 2013.
01:13:02 --> 01:13:06 President Obama didn't want to talk to us as Republicans in Congress until the
01:13:06 --> 01:13:09 threat of the shutdown was over because having that hanging over him and having
01:13:09 --> 01:13:12 it hang over the government, he felt was not even a non-starter.
01:13:12 --> 01:13:19 And so it eventually was resolved through very little wins for Republicans, as I recall.
01:13:19 --> 01:13:25 But the Senate side was able to do a very small thing to get the shutdown to
01:13:25 --> 01:13:29 end and then conversations resumed after that. And so I do think in that context,
01:13:29 --> 01:13:31 it's what's going to have to happen.
01:13:32 --> 01:13:36 Senator Thune is going to have to show good faith effort to his Democratic colleagues
01:13:36 --> 01:13:40 in the Senate that a vote and or not even just a vote on the subsidies,
01:13:40 --> 01:13:43 but an actual package, I think, needs to be put in place.
01:13:43 --> 01:13:49 Because what's confusing to viewers and to people who aren't necessarily in
01:13:49 --> 01:13:53 the weeds on this is that you have one side saying that healthcare costs are
01:13:53 --> 01:13:54 going to go up, which is fact.
01:13:54 --> 01:13:58 They are going to go up, but they also may go up regardless of this thing getting
01:13:58 --> 01:14:02 extended because the subsidies are really, it's for the insurance companies.
01:14:02 --> 01:14:07 And it's a band-aid that was put in place during the pandemic.
01:14:07 --> 01:14:09 So it was from 21 to 25. And...
01:14:11 --> 01:14:14 It was because, quite frankly, Obamacare hasn't worked out the way that they
01:14:14 --> 01:14:16 had hoped. So they have to do some restructuring.
01:14:16 --> 01:14:19 There has to be something done. They need to do some reforms.
01:14:20 --> 01:14:26 And Republicans, anything that even says ACA but Obamacare, they turn their
01:14:26 --> 01:14:28 nose up at and refuse to even want to touch it with the 10-foot pole.
01:14:28 --> 01:14:30 Well, that's not helpful at all because they have to.
01:14:30 --> 01:14:34 This is the law of the land. So you need to be able to work within the framework
01:14:34 --> 01:14:35 that is the law of the land.
01:14:36 --> 01:14:38 And I think that's just frustrating to people on the outside.
01:14:38 --> 01:14:41 It's like, well, listen, you're both sitting in your corners.
01:14:41 --> 01:14:42 You've got to come to the middle.
01:14:43 --> 01:14:48 And I think that has to start with ending the shutdown and then soon taking
01:14:48 --> 01:14:52 the reins and putting together, whether it's, you know, Senate Finance Committee chairs,
01:14:53 --> 01:14:56 whether it's the Senate Health Committee chairs, bringing them into a room and
01:14:56 --> 01:14:59 having them flesh out, OK, what do we need to do to make the system better?
01:14:59 --> 01:15:02 Because it's not working the way it's supposed to.
01:15:02 --> 01:15:04 We can't keep putting a Band-Aid on it to help out the insurance company so
01:15:04 --> 01:15:09 that they won't jack up prices on consumers, which is what's happening or what's going to happen.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:15 And how do we do that? And I just think that it's not as simple as one vote
01:15:15 --> 01:15:17 here is going to save you from having higher prices.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:21 And, you know, it's just not as simple as both sides are making it seem,
01:15:22 --> 01:15:25 but it has to start at the end of a shutdown because we hurt as Americans.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:29 We're the ones who are going to hurt with this continue to go on any longer.
01:15:29 --> 01:15:31 Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that.
01:15:31 --> 01:15:36 You know, I just think that, you know, and I've, you know, in my legislative
01:15:36 --> 01:15:42 career, I've shut down the chamber individually and all that.
01:15:42 --> 01:15:44 But, you know, there was an end game. Right.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:54 And yeah. And so, you know, what I'm I get the fact that the Democrats are saying that.
01:15:55 --> 01:15:59 Yeah. Well, this is what we want. Right. And now and then Thune has said,
01:16:00 --> 01:16:05 well, let's let's let's keep the government open and then we can talk about it.
01:16:05 --> 01:16:12 Now, Thune has it can't be tone deaf to not understand that there's no trust in the room.
01:16:13 --> 01:16:18 Right. And more than just saying, oh, well, we're going to talk about it.
01:16:18 --> 01:16:23 You know, it's like even when it was friendlier times in politics when I served,
01:16:23 --> 01:16:29 yeah, it's like, are you saying that or somebody pushing a button to say that?
01:16:29 --> 01:16:33 Because if that's the case, let's let's have that conversation.
01:16:33 --> 01:16:41 If, you know, if the guy at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue is not agreeing to that,
01:16:41 --> 01:16:43 we don't trust what you're saying.
01:16:43 --> 01:16:48 Because the minute we say, okay, we're voting for it and the shutdown's over
01:16:48 --> 01:16:53 with, then it's like, you know, and we don't get anything before December.
01:16:53 --> 01:16:55 It's like, bruh, uh-uh, no.
01:16:55 --> 01:16:58 And then that's going to make it harder and harder. Same with,
01:16:58 --> 01:17:03 like, Representative Grijalva. And I, yeah, you know, I'm trying to say her name,
01:17:03 --> 01:17:04 right. I'm going to learn it. I know, Same.
01:17:04 --> 01:17:07 That's okay. We'll get there. But it's like,
01:17:08 --> 01:17:12 If I'm Speaker Johnson and I need one vote, I know I'll never get her because
01:17:12 --> 01:17:15 of the way that he's treated her. You see what I'm saying?
01:17:15 --> 01:17:19 You'll never get her vote. It's like, well, I got to wait a month.
01:17:19 --> 01:17:23 And it's like somebody in your party can get in like the next day before the
01:17:23 --> 01:17:25 secretary of state even has the ballot. Right.
01:17:26 --> 01:17:29 I mean, those are just little things like that.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:34 That's the only commodity you have in that building is trust.
01:17:34 --> 01:17:40 That's it. If your word is not worth anything, you're not going to get anything done.
01:17:40 --> 01:17:44 It doesn't matter what party you're in, what district you come from,
01:17:44 --> 01:17:46 what part of the state you're in or part of the country.
01:17:47 --> 01:17:51 If you don't develop a cachet of trust, you cannot be effective.
01:17:51 --> 01:17:57 And that's why we're at the impasse we're in. But again, this is the interview to you.
01:17:57 --> 01:18:01 I'm not getting on myself. And just, you know, one more thing on that.
01:18:01 --> 01:18:05 I think not only just with Grijalva, but optically, the fact that the House
01:18:05 --> 01:18:09 has not been in since September 19th or hasn't had votes since September 19th,
01:18:09 --> 01:18:12 and they're going to get paid this week, you know, members will get paid,
01:18:12 --> 01:18:15 but their staffers who have been there day in, day out will not.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:18 And I'm not just speaking because I'm a former staffer, but talking about the
01:18:18 --> 01:18:21 whole federal workforce, they will miss out on a paycheck.
01:18:22 --> 01:18:26 And in Washington, D.C., where rent is very high, I remember in the 2019,
01:18:26 --> 01:18:30 we had a check-in with our staff. It was 36 days that they shut down.
01:18:30 --> 01:18:32 So right now, the one that we're currently in is the second longest because
01:18:32 --> 01:18:35 the one in 2018-2019 was the longest.
01:18:35 --> 01:18:38 And we had to check in with our staff assistants, our junior staff,
01:18:38 --> 01:18:42 and just say, hey, are you all okay to pay rent this month? Because that was a genuine concern.
01:18:42 --> 01:18:46 Not getting a paycheck for a month in D.C. is a concern about can you pay,
01:18:46 --> 01:18:47 can you afford your rent?
01:18:48 --> 01:18:51 And yet you have members who have been home since September 19th,
01:18:51 --> 01:18:54 not working in their office, not showing us that they're trying to resolve this
01:18:54 --> 01:18:56 issue, which I think is the biggest problem.
01:18:56 --> 01:18:59 John Boehner, I used, you know, obviously when he was speaker...
01:19:00 --> 01:19:04 Importance was to show up every day and have conversations. Whether or not you
01:19:04 --> 01:19:07 walk by those conversations feeling as though you made any progress or not,
01:19:07 --> 01:19:09 having the conversations matters
01:19:09 --> 01:19:11 because the American people need to know that you're willing to talk,
01:19:12 --> 01:19:13 willing to at least argue with
01:19:13 --> 01:19:16 each other, but they're not even talking because they're not even there.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:19 I do think optically this is going to come back and at some point it's going
01:19:19 --> 01:19:22 to bite Republicans in the butt for not having been president.
01:19:22 --> 01:19:26 The Senate is there, yes, but I just think it's a bad optics. Yeah.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:35 All right. Speaking about the president, who, not what, but who is the future
01:19:35 --> 01:19:38 of the Republican Party after Trump?
01:19:39 --> 01:19:44 That is a great question. And I don't have a solid answer to it because I think
01:19:44 --> 01:19:49 that it's hard to gauge because nobody can replicate what Trump has done.
01:19:50 --> 01:19:52 Nobody can replicate the loyalty
01:19:52 --> 01:19:57 he has amassed and in some ways the blind loyalty that he has amassed.
01:19:57 --> 01:20:03 So much so that even though, and I talk to folks who are loyalists and MAGA
01:20:03 --> 01:20:10 and And even when they are frustrated by something, one, you see Marge Taylor Greene do it, right?
01:20:10 --> 01:20:14 She finds a way to pivot to blame Thune and Johnson, but that the president's doing great.
01:20:14 --> 01:20:20 He's fantastic. Because they're so apprehensive to admit that maybe they were
01:20:20 --> 01:20:23 wrong about someone, especially someone that they put so much of their faith
01:20:23 --> 01:20:26 and stock into as Donald Trump.
01:20:26 --> 01:20:29 And so I don't think that we'll, as a Republican Party at least,
01:20:29 --> 01:20:36 we'll be able to replicate ever what Trump has done in terms of this unyielding loyalty.
01:20:36 --> 01:20:41 So people have mentioned, you know, J.D. Vance could be the next whatever.
01:20:41 --> 01:20:46 I don't see that personally. I just don't think that he has even remotely the
01:20:46 --> 01:20:52 same charisma and ability to carry Republican voters, but not even just Republican voters,
01:20:52 --> 01:20:58 people on the fringe or somewhere out there in the middle somewhere.
01:20:58 --> 01:21:00 I don't think he has enough of a pull to do so.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:06 So that being said, I'm sure Trump is hoping that it's one of his sons.
01:21:06 --> 01:21:09 And I am terrified of that being the case.
01:21:09 --> 01:21:13 But again, I just don't think that there is a way to say who would be the next
01:21:13 --> 01:21:17 leader of the Republican Party when you still have Trump so looming large.
01:21:18 --> 01:21:25 And, you know, he makes these jokes about 2028. And I don't know how much of a joke he thinks that is.
01:21:26 --> 01:21:32 Yeah, it's going to be hard. I mean, we had that same dynamic, you know, with Obama.
01:21:33 --> 01:21:36 I mean, and the Democrats don't like to admit that. They said,
01:21:36 --> 01:21:39 oh, we have a deep bench and all that stuff. And I said, yeah, but...
01:21:40 --> 01:21:43 It's hard to replace a once in a generation type figure.
01:21:43 --> 01:21:47 And regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum,
01:21:47 --> 01:21:55 you have to, you know, these people get into these positions because they have a certain dynamic.
01:21:56 --> 01:22:00 Right. Whether it's Trump, whether it's Obama, whether it's Reagan, whether it's Clinton.
01:22:00 --> 01:22:04 You know, now there's some guys that fill in in between that,
01:22:04 --> 01:22:07 you know, well, just so happened. These are our choices.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:13 Right. But, you know, those names, when you throw out those names, they invoke memories.
01:22:14 --> 01:22:18 And so, you know, it's just, I don't know.
01:22:19 --> 01:22:24 And my concern from a Democratic side, and this is a selfish thing,
01:22:24 --> 01:22:27 is that nobody from my generation is going to be president.
01:22:28 --> 01:22:31 I'm a Gen Xer. So Kamala Harris and I are the same age.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:36 She's the only Gen Xer I know that's run and had a serious chance to win.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:40 And so now with the trend with the Democrats, it's like, well,
01:22:40 --> 01:22:42 we got to pick somebody young.
01:22:42 --> 01:22:47 And the vice president of the United States is under the age of 45 on the Republican side.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:54 I don't see anybody from my generation even getting another shot at. We had one shot.
01:22:55 --> 01:22:59 Which is really crazy when you think about it but the baby boomers it's such
01:22:59 --> 01:23:04 a large I mean swath of the population and the fact that the last you know we've
01:23:04 --> 01:23:09 had two octogenarians running you know it just it is really crazy when you think
01:23:09 --> 01:23:10 about it I hadn't thought about the Gen X.
01:23:11 --> 01:23:14 Representation there in the presidency. That's interesting. I hadn't thought about that.
01:23:15 --> 01:23:17 I don't know who we would have on our side too, right? I mean,
01:23:17 --> 01:23:23 I think we had a couple, Nikki Haley, you know, and I know she's laying a bit
01:23:23 --> 01:23:26 low at the moment and trying to figure out her next steps, I'm sure.
01:23:26 --> 01:23:31 But it's interesting because the Trump factor has been such a,
01:23:31 --> 01:23:36 hard one for so many people in Republican politics to navigate because either
01:23:36 --> 01:23:40 they're terrified of of saying anything wrong and then getting in his wrath
01:23:40 --> 01:23:45 or isolating voters who voted for him and i i just think that's there's a way
01:23:45 --> 01:23:47 of going about it you don't have to necessarily like someone to vote for them
01:23:47 --> 01:23:49 but at the same time you don't have to vote for someone you don't like
01:23:49 --> 01:23:55 and i just i think that people get so hung up on you know what trump thinks of them versus,
01:23:56 --> 01:23:58 what are the people who voted for you think of you and what you're doing what
01:23:58 --> 01:24:02 you stand for i don't have to agree with trump i don't have to like trump but
01:24:02 --> 01:24:04 on some policies i'll say that i think it's fine.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:08 You know, are some issues that I don't necessarily think that are so bad.
01:24:08 --> 01:24:10 You know, I think we can call balls and strikes as they are.
01:24:11 --> 01:24:14 It doesn't mean that I support him as a person. It doesn't mean I like him as
01:24:14 --> 01:24:17 a person, but I can also say that there are some things that are fine that are
01:24:17 --> 01:24:18 going on or that I support.
01:24:19 --> 01:24:24 I don't know. I just think that so many politicians have struggled so incredibly to navigate it.
01:24:24 --> 01:24:28 And I don't know until he's, you know, out of the political scene,
01:24:28 --> 01:24:32 I don't know how they get past it. Yeah. All right. Last question.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:37 If you were assigned to do Black voter outreach in a 2026 campaign.
01:24:37 --> 01:24:39 How would you go about that, Tata?
01:24:40 --> 01:24:45 I'd probably study what happened in Alabama in 2017, 2018.
01:24:45 --> 01:24:49 I would look through and see broader, you know.
01:24:50 --> 01:24:53 Broader civic engagement. And I think kind of what we talked about with Mom and Donnie, right?
01:24:54 --> 01:24:59 Grassroots efforts, getting a better canvassing, talking to the nonprofit organizations
01:24:59 --> 01:25:04 and see how they canvass and how they communicate in terms of not only,
01:25:04 --> 01:25:08 you know, encouraging people to vote, getting them signed up to vote, but engaging on,
01:25:08 --> 01:25:12 like in canvassing when you campaign just for any viewers who aren't familiar,
01:25:13 --> 01:25:14 it's not just saying, hi,
01:25:14 --> 01:25:17 you know, I'm so-and-so from this group, who are you voting for in this upcoming election?
01:25:17 --> 01:25:19 It's also saying what issues matter most to you?
01:25:20 --> 01:25:24 And what are you most concerned about heading into this next election?
01:25:25 --> 01:25:28 But also, what are you worried about right now? And so you can take polls in
01:25:28 --> 01:25:31 real time, whether that's through phone calls, texts, or door-to-door knocking.
01:25:32 --> 01:25:35 Canvassing can be also a really effective tool in terms of just getting to a
01:25:35 --> 01:25:36 sense of where people are.
01:25:36 --> 01:25:41 But having those communications directly, as opposed to email blasts,
01:25:41 --> 01:25:46 ads on TV, and, you know, making sure they're popping up every other commercial.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:51 That's not necessarily always the, yes, they're helpful, but are they really
01:25:51 --> 01:25:53 getting to the heart of the issues? Probably not.
01:25:54 --> 01:25:57 So I think if I was advising a campaign, I would put more of a focus on what
01:25:57 --> 01:25:59 local organizations are doing,
01:26:00 --> 01:26:05 talking to church leaders and community leaders, maybe having different mayoral
01:26:05 --> 01:26:09 retreats or dinner or something where you're discussing it on a more local level.
01:26:09 --> 01:26:14 Hey, how can we outreach to your community? Where do you see the biggest roadblocks?
01:26:14 --> 01:26:17 Is it polling places that aren't available for early voting?
01:26:17 --> 01:26:21 I mean, I know that's an issue across the country that there are less polling
01:26:21 --> 01:26:24 places for early voting. And so people can't get there.
01:26:24 --> 01:26:28 I know in New Jersey, we have an election coming up. And so I'm traveling during
01:26:28 --> 01:26:31 the actual election. So I'm going to go do early voting.
01:26:32 --> 01:26:35 Yes, I have to travel for it. But, you know, I think about communities where
01:26:35 --> 01:26:38 it's an hour drive to get to your local, you know, that's not feasible if you're
01:26:38 --> 01:26:40 going after work or before work or on the weekend.
01:26:40 --> 01:26:44 So I think about some of those things, too, and talking to local organizers
01:26:44 --> 01:26:47 and seeing, okay, what hurdles do we have and how can we address them ahead
01:26:47 --> 01:26:51 of, I mean, just 2026, but I think of 28, you know, I think of...
01:26:52 --> 01:26:56 Trying to get ahead of some of these issues now so that you're not scrambling and
01:26:56 --> 01:26:59 then running out of time and feeling as though because I think that was also
01:26:59 --> 01:27:02 part of it too I it's hard to compare it with Kamala Winther because she has
01:27:02 --> 01:27:07 such a short window of time to even make some of those outreach but I also think
01:27:07 --> 01:27:11 like people really like t-shirts and signs and so I would put a lot of money
01:27:11 --> 01:27:16 into doing a ton of t-shirts and a ton of signs and really making like people
01:27:16 --> 01:27:18 feel included in part of a campaign.
01:27:18 --> 01:27:22 I think that that's something, too, as is human nature. We want to be included.
01:27:23 --> 01:27:24 We want to feel part of something.
01:27:24 --> 01:27:27 And it seems small. It seems maybe a little silly, but it's not.
01:27:27 --> 01:27:31 It's an easy lift. And for how much money people put into campaigns.
01:27:32 --> 01:27:35 Make some extra shirts and some signs. It shouldn't be that hard, people.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:39 Like, it really shouldn't be that hard. But I do. I think that people want to
01:27:39 --> 01:27:42 feel heard, but they also would be included. So those are the things I would focus on.
01:27:43 --> 01:27:48 1983, when Harold Washington ran to become the first Black mayor of Chicago,
01:27:48 --> 01:27:53 the Harold Washington for Chicago campaign button was a fashion accessory.
01:27:53 --> 01:27:58 You had to have one. If you didn't have one, it's like, didn't matter.
01:27:58 --> 01:28:01 And you know, that generation, we had buttons everywhere.
01:28:02 --> 01:28:05 We had the blue jackets with buttons. But if you didn't have a Harold Washington
01:28:05 --> 01:28:10 for Chicago button, that blue and white button with the city skyline, you didn't have that.
01:28:10 --> 01:28:13 Oh yeah. What are you doing? How come you ain't got a Washington button?
01:28:13 --> 01:28:20 You know you know and that was like the first person i ever voted for so i mean that was i mean,
01:28:21 --> 01:28:25 that connection that just that little simple button that was the connection
01:28:25 --> 01:28:30 so you you're on to something look i gotta let you go how can people reach out
01:28:30 --> 01:28:36 to you how can people follow you just just give give give the audience a way
01:28:36 --> 01:28:38 that they can connect with you,
01:28:39 --> 01:28:43 Sure. So I post a lot of things on Instagram. And I still have the same account
01:28:43 --> 01:28:47 that I had when I first got my account in college. So I haven't changed my name,
01:28:47 --> 01:28:48 which is probably something I should have done.
01:28:49 --> 01:28:52 But it's at M-M-G-I-L-L on Instagram
01:28:52 --> 01:28:56 and then Maura underscore Gillespie on Twitter. So follow me there.
01:28:56 --> 01:29:03 And yeah, I think that I do a fair amount on TV, but I usually post it on my stories on Instagram.
01:29:04 --> 01:29:08 And Blue Tech Strategies is the business that I consult. And And so if you're
01:29:08 --> 01:29:10 looking for media or PR, feel free to reach out.
01:29:10 --> 01:29:13 I'd love to work with you all. And thank you for having me on, Erik.
01:29:13 --> 01:29:16 This is a really fruitful conversation. And again, I think what you're doing
01:29:16 --> 01:29:21 just shows that the importance of having conversation and we don't necessarily
01:29:21 --> 01:29:23 always have to agree on everything, but just being able to talk through some
01:29:23 --> 01:29:26 of these issues and on a broader scale, I think is really helpful.
01:29:27 --> 01:29:30 So thank you for inviting me on and for what you're doing. Well,
01:29:30 --> 01:29:31 thank you for accepting.
01:29:33 --> 01:29:39 I've been pursuing you for a minute and I'm finally glad that my due diligence
01:29:39 --> 01:29:41 paid off because this was worth it.
01:29:41 --> 01:29:46 And the rule is, is that now that you've been on and you accept the invitation
01:29:46 --> 01:29:49 and all that, that you have an open invitation to come back.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:51 You don't even have to wait for me to ask you.
01:29:51 --> 01:29:53 Just if you say, Erik, I need to talk.
01:29:54 --> 01:29:57 We can make that happen. So Maura, let's be. I love it. Thank you so much.
01:29:58 --> 01:30:01 Thank you. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side. .
01:30:21 --> 01:30:26 Right. And we are back. And so now it's time for an old friend of the podcast to come on.
01:30:26 --> 01:30:31 He has written a new book called The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.
01:30:32 --> 01:30:34 And it's a very compelling book.
01:30:35 --> 01:30:41 And I encourage y'all to get it. And the author's name is Will Cooper.
01:30:41 --> 01:30:44 Will Cooper is an attorney who's done work for major companies,
01:30:44 --> 01:30:46 including Google and Samsung.
01:30:47 --> 01:30:51 He's also an award-winning journalist whose articles have appeared in hundreds
01:30:51 --> 01:30:54 of publications around the world, including the New York Times,
01:30:54 --> 01:30:58 San Francisco Chronicle, Chicago Sun-Times, and Jerusalem Post.
01:30:59 --> 01:31:04 Publishers Weekly called his writings about Donald Trump a compelling rallying
01:31:04 --> 01:31:07 cry for democratic institutions under threat in America.
01:31:07 --> 01:31:12 And he is a frequent guest on national television and radio programs and on
01:31:12 --> 01:31:16 numerous podcasts. and he lives in sunny California.
01:31:17 --> 01:31:23 Ladies and gentlemen, it is always an honor and a privilege to have as a guest
01:31:23 --> 01:31:27 on this podcast, Will Cooper. Music.
01:31:38 --> 01:31:43 My good friend, Will Cooper. How you doing? Doing great, Erik. Happy to be here.
01:31:43 --> 01:31:47 Well, I'm happy to have you on. I understand that you sent me this book,
01:31:48 --> 01:31:51 The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.
01:31:52 --> 01:31:58 So I see that you wrote this, and I want to get into that while I have you.
01:31:59 --> 01:32:04 But I do want to do my icebreaker things. And one of those quotes,
01:32:04 --> 01:32:08 The quote I'm going to use is from Mr. Rumsfeld himself.
01:32:08 --> 01:32:14 He said, those who make the decisions with imperfect knowledge will be judged
01:32:14 --> 01:32:20 in hindsight by those with considerably more information at their disposal and time for reflection.
01:32:21 --> 01:32:23 What does that quote mean to you?
01:32:24 --> 01:32:31 Like lots of things Rumsfeld said, I think it's very insightful and accurate.
01:32:31 --> 01:32:37 I think Rumsfeld was really complicated and a mix of positives and negatives, which we can get into.
01:32:38 --> 01:32:42 But he was often, not always, but often insightful and accurate.
01:32:42 --> 01:32:48 And I think that quote, which a lot of other people have said the same thing, is exactly right.
01:32:49 --> 01:32:55 That's exactly right. The things that people are in positions of authority in big,
01:32:55 --> 01:33:03 complicated areas are dealing with are much harder in real time than the folks
01:33:03 --> 01:33:08 in the peanut gallery who criticize them after the fact are dealing with.
01:33:08 --> 01:33:16 I often want in the peanut gallery being unfair myself, but I think that quote is exactly right.
01:33:16 --> 01:33:19 Well, I've, I've, I've been in the arena and in the gallery,
01:33:19 --> 01:33:23 so, you know, it's, it's just part of the existence that we go through.
01:33:24 --> 01:33:30 Yes, you're very well suited for that because unlike me, I've only been in the
01:33:30 --> 01:33:31 gallery when it comes to politics.
01:33:32 --> 01:33:34 You're actually, you know, both sides.
01:33:35 --> 01:33:39 I'm curious, if you don't mind, what do you think? Because you've got the right
01:33:39 --> 01:33:41 perspective to answer that.
01:33:41 --> 01:33:44 Do you agree or what do you think? Well, yeah, I agree with that.
01:33:44 --> 01:33:47 You know, when you're sitting there trying to make a decision,
01:33:47 --> 01:33:53 the one thing that most people don't realize is that the toughest critic of
01:33:53 --> 01:33:57 anybody will be, you know, in my case, it'd be myself.
01:33:57 --> 01:34:02 You know, when you look back and some of the votes I've taken on certain things,
01:34:03 --> 01:34:06 I'm like, yeah, I probably should have went another way with that.
01:34:06 --> 01:34:10 But fortunately for me, it wasn't that many, but I know there was at least a
01:34:10 --> 01:34:15 couple that I could really think back and say, yeah, I should have either,
01:34:15 --> 01:34:20 either I should have stuck to my guns or I should have not voted that way.
01:34:20 --> 01:34:25 And, you know, so I remember it was, I think, after my first year,
01:34:25 --> 01:34:31 I got a letter from a lobbyist and the lobbyist was saying that I had voted
01:34:31 --> 01:34:34 against a particular bill they were pushing for. And I was like, no.
01:34:35 --> 01:34:42 And I had a I had a habit of marking down yes or no on the calendar that the day I voted on it.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:46 So I went back and found the calendar for that day and I said,
01:34:47 --> 01:34:50 oh, I guess I did vote against this. Oh, well, I'm sorry.
01:34:50 --> 01:34:55 You know, but, uh, but I understood the reason why I voted against it at the time.
01:34:55 --> 01:34:59 But, you know, it was, it just one of those things where, like you said,
01:34:59 --> 01:35:01 you're always going to be observed and all that stuff.
01:35:02 --> 01:35:09 So the other thing is 20 questions now you've been on before so there's two
01:35:09 --> 01:35:14 numbers you can't pick and that's 11 and 17 so i need you to give me a number
01:35:14 --> 01:35:17 other than those two between one and 20.
01:35:18 --> 01:35:24 19 what are some values you think most people share even if they express them differently,
01:35:26 --> 01:35:31 I think I love the question, and I love talking about what people share this
01:35:31 --> 01:35:34 day and age because there's so much focus on what people don't share.
01:35:35 --> 01:35:42 I think loyalty to those close to you is something that most people share.
01:35:44 --> 01:35:48 And no matter where you are on the political continuum or differences,
01:35:48 --> 01:35:56 I think being kind to those in your daily life, even if people don't live up to it all the time,
01:35:56 --> 01:35:59 is another example of something that people share.
01:35:59 --> 01:36:05 And it's a value and an aspiration that I think most people do share.
01:36:06 --> 01:36:12 Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. So I'm going to read something from the book. Thank you.
01:36:13 --> 01:36:18 So the listening audience can kind of get an idea of this book.
01:36:19 --> 01:36:23 When Rummy's head hit the pillow that night, he thought about the same thing
01:36:23 --> 01:36:25 he now thought about every night.
01:36:26 --> 01:36:30 September the 11th. The same pain he felt in his stomach when the Pentagon started
01:36:30 --> 01:36:32 shaking would come back every night.
01:36:32 --> 01:36:36 He saw images of the people being carried on stretchers to ambulances.
01:36:36 --> 01:36:43 Their screams echoed in his head. He smelled the dense smoke oozing from the smoldering wreckage.
01:36:43 --> 01:36:45 He felt his throat clench as he tried to breathe.
01:36:46 --> 01:36:53 In retrospect, everyone now knew the scope of the attacks of that day.
01:36:53 --> 01:36:57 But at the time the planes were hitting the buildings, no one knew how vast
01:36:57 --> 01:36:58 the destruction would be.
01:36:58 --> 01:37:02 No one knew what would happen next. It was horrifying.
01:37:02 --> 01:37:08 The next time could be so much worse, he worried. The potential for destruction was so vast.
01:37:08 --> 01:37:13 Americans' way of life depended on 300 million people waking up every day and
01:37:13 --> 01:37:17 having the freedom and confidence to participate fully in society.
01:37:17 --> 01:37:23 This is what allowed schools to open, markets to function, businesses to create
01:37:23 --> 01:37:27 products, services, and jobs, artists and athletes to entertain,
01:37:27 --> 01:37:31 researchers to discover new truths, the public square to flourish.
01:37:31 --> 01:37:37 People needed to get out of bed each day without fear and order for America to work.
01:37:37 --> 01:37:41 The violent dysfunction of the Middle East jeopardized all that,
01:37:41 --> 01:37:46 and the asymmetric threats, where just a few people could do so much damage,
01:37:46 --> 01:37:47 made the challenge immense.
01:37:48 --> 01:37:52 It was his job as Secretary of Defense to defend his country.
01:37:52 --> 01:37:57 Never again, he said softly, already asleep, Joyce moved just a little,
01:37:57 --> 01:38:00 not on my watch, never again.
01:38:01 --> 01:38:06 What made you come up with the concept for this book? Why did you decide to?
01:38:07 --> 01:38:12 Because it's very interesting. And I'm really just curious what was in your
01:38:12 --> 01:38:14 mindset to say, yeah, I'm going to write this book.
01:38:16 --> 01:38:20 I think every single person that's seen the book or heard about that has thought that.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:24 Why would you write that book? This guy? Who is he?
01:38:25 --> 01:38:30 Why that book? There's two reasons that I think are the main ones.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:36 The first is that when I, September 11th happened, I was a young adult and that
01:38:36 --> 01:38:38 was very transformative for me.
01:38:38 --> 01:38:44 And it's what I went from being pretty ignorant and uninterested in politics
01:38:44 --> 01:38:48 to, to immediately very interested.
01:38:48 --> 01:38:52 Just wondering how, how could something like this happen? What's behind this?
01:38:52 --> 01:38:58 You know, what's, what's going on here? So it was a very formative period for
01:38:58 --> 01:39:02 me in terms of my mental model and how it was, you know,
01:39:02 --> 01:39:07 initially started to be formed and when it came to issues of politics and foreign relations.
01:39:08 --> 01:39:13 And Rumsfeld was front and center. He was the secretary of defense focused on this.
01:39:14 --> 01:39:19 And I used to watch his press conferences on C-SPAN, which were at the time
01:39:19 --> 01:39:23 very widely watched and talked about.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:29 And I just found him extremely interesting, extremely fascinating as a person,
01:39:30 --> 01:39:34 really, really smart, really energetic, not afraid to speak his mind.
01:39:34 --> 01:39:38 But then he also made, you know, over time, I realized he made some very big
01:39:38 --> 01:39:41 mistakes. You know, his signature...
01:39:42 --> 01:39:47 Action in government was the Iraq war, which, which was a disaster.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:53 And so I always wondered how, how could somebody so smart make such a terrible decision?
01:39:54 --> 01:40:00 So, so the first part of your question, Erik, is just, I found him really fascinating in that context.
01:40:01 --> 01:40:04 Wasn't just affection, wasn't just hostility.
01:40:04 --> 01:40:10 It was, I just found him fascinating. And then the second part was I really
01:40:10 --> 01:40:17 wanted to write a book that made the point that people in positions of vast
01:40:17 --> 01:40:21 authority are human, just like everyone else.
01:40:21 --> 01:40:29 I think it's a very widespread mistake to think of politicians as something
01:40:29 --> 01:40:30 other than a normal person.
01:40:32 --> 01:40:37 When somebody who really hates Dick Cheney thinks about it, they think of him as some dark monster.
01:40:37 --> 01:40:42 When somebody who really hates Barack Obama, they think of him as some radical monster,
01:40:42 --> 01:40:46 And the way they think about politicians and talk about politicians,
01:40:46 --> 01:40:48 it's like they're cartoons and not people.
01:40:49 --> 01:40:53 But they're all people just like us. And you know this because you were an elected official.
01:40:54 --> 01:41:00 Even the biggest, most famous, notorious people in the public square are humans.
01:41:01 --> 01:41:05 And I wanted to write a book that showed that this person who was so controversial,
01:41:06 --> 01:41:12 such a lightning rod, was a human being. and had a human dimension to him that
01:41:12 --> 01:41:15 I think a lot of people didn't appreciate. Yeah.
01:41:16 --> 01:41:26 So why did you go through a fictional act as opposed to just doing a straight biography on them?
01:41:26 --> 01:41:33 When you're writing nonfiction, everything you say has to be right.
01:41:34 --> 01:41:39 The goal for me is everything I say needs to be right, It needs to be what I believe.
01:41:39 --> 01:41:44 I want to just be completely open and put my views out there and see what happens to them.
01:41:45 --> 01:41:54 You want to support everything you say with facts and substance and citations and all of that.
01:41:54 --> 01:41:58 I love that process, but it can be challenging.
01:41:59 --> 01:42:07 It's a heavy lift sometimes. In fiction, you get to just pick up the pen and go.
01:42:08 --> 01:42:12 Wherever your creative juices take you, that's where you go.
01:42:13 --> 01:42:19 And so that process at times for me can be easier and more fun.
01:42:19 --> 01:42:22 Not always. So I was just kind of in the mood for that.
01:42:22 --> 01:42:29 And so I thought that blending the two would be a fun way to write a book and
01:42:29 --> 01:42:35 also be a way to make points that to me are important,
01:42:36 --> 01:42:40 not having to have, you know, huge footnotes to support everything I said. Yeah.
01:42:41 --> 01:42:46 Who is more fascinating of the two people that you have written about,
01:42:46 --> 01:42:48 Donald Rumsfeld or Donald Trump?
01:42:51 --> 01:42:56 Wow. Well, on the question, there's a lot of other adjectives we could use to describe both of them.
01:42:57 --> 01:43:00 On the question of fascinating, I would
01:43:00 --> 01:43:09 say Trump's overall impact on the country and the world and all of the things
01:43:09 --> 01:43:15 that he's done and all of the ripples in the pond from his two presidencies
01:43:15 --> 01:43:19 is from a position of just fascination,
01:43:19 --> 01:43:23 probably as fascinating as anything I can think of in politics.
01:43:24 --> 01:43:29 It just would never stop with fascination there.
01:43:29 --> 01:43:33 But Trump's a much simpler man than Rumsfeld.
01:43:34 --> 01:43:39 Rumsfeld was a lot smarter than Trump. He was a lot more nuanced than Trump.
01:43:40 --> 01:43:43 And so I'm going to say Rumsfeld, the man, was more fascinating.
01:43:44 --> 01:43:49 Trump, the politician, and his time in office has been more fascinating.
01:43:49 --> 01:43:54 Well, let's dive into that a little more because you characterize Rumsfeld in
01:43:54 --> 01:43:58 the book as a confident through the narrator of the book.
01:43:58 --> 01:44:05 You said you characterize him as a confident but open-minded thinker,
01:44:05 --> 01:44:08 unburdened by hubris or ideology.
01:44:08 --> 01:44:15 Yeah, just kind of dive into that a little more. So that description in the
01:44:15 --> 01:44:21 book is Rumsfeld's self-image of being a confident, open-minded thinker.
01:44:21 --> 01:44:26 And one of the main themes of the book is.
01:44:27 --> 01:44:33 That I believe is very true, is people who are very bright, very smart,
01:44:33 --> 01:44:37 very capable people in the world, right, with their jobs, interacting with other
01:44:37 --> 01:44:39 people, accomplishing big things.
01:44:41 --> 01:44:46 When the lens is shifted to themselves and they're thinking about themselves.
01:44:46 --> 01:44:50 All of a sudden their judgment collapses.
01:44:50 --> 01:44:56 The powerful force of ego and concerns about legacy and how they're viewed and
01:44:56 --> 01:45:00 wanting to be the hero who finally did what no one else could do,
01:45:01 --> 01:45:03 it can cripple your judgment.
01:45:03 --> 01:45:08 So you can do great things in life. And then when questions that you're intertwined
01:45:08 --> 01:45:12 with, you can be radically overconfident.
01:45:12 --> 01:45:15 You can have a self-assessment that's really inaccurate.
01:45:15 --> 01:45:20 I think Elon Musk is a really good example of that in recent history where he's
01:45:20 --> 01:45:23 a brilliant business person. And when he's focused on building a company like
01:45:23 --> 01:45:28 Tesla or SpaceX, he's obviously very smart, very capable.
01:45:29 --> 01:45:34 When he jumped into politics and was trying to be this hero saving the world
01:45:34 --> 01:45:39 from America's overspending and fraud and waste, his IQ dropped in half.
01:45:40 --> 01:45:46 I mean, he was constantly saying things that to people like you and I were essentially
01:45:46 --> 01:45:50 illiterate about our system of government because it's not his domain.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:57 So he was wildly overconfident and made lots of mistakes thinking he knew more than he did.
01:45:57 --> 01:46:03 And then the book, Rumsfeld, the same thing. He has this incredibly accomplished life.
01:46:03 --> 01:46:07 But then when he tries to be the hero who saves the Middle East and finally
01:46:07 --> 01:46:10 solves that problem, he makes big blunders.
01:46:12 --> 01:46:17 How much did Rumsfeld's rules shape how you wrote the book?
01:46:18 --> 01:46:24 Well, Rumsfeld's rules is a collection of axioms. It's a mix of Rumsfeld's own
01:46:24 --> 01:46:26 statements and quotes from others.
01:46:26 --> 01:46:31 There's a lot of really smart and intelligent insights in there.
01:46:31 --> 01:46:35 A lot of them are, you know, he's quoting Ben Franklin and Mark Twain and George
01:46:35 --> 01:46:40 Washington and people, you know, really smart people, many others too.
01:46:40 --> 01:46:42 And then he mixes his own thoughts in there.
01:46:43 --> 01:46:48 It's a really fascinating window into who rumsfeld was and what he thought so in that,
01:46:48 --> 01:46:53 sense it was very helpful i include rumsfeld's rules throughout the book the
01:46:53 --> 01:46:58 actual rules themselves one of the things i wanted to do with the book was actually
01:46:58 --> 01:47:04 capture rumsfeld so there's a lot of a lot of facts and and not only about him
01:47:04 --> 01:47:08 but historical facts that are that are accurate and that actually took place.
01:47:08 --> 01:47:14 And so it didn't shape the narrative of the novel, but it informed my understanding
01:47:14 --> 01:47:17 of Rumsfeld in a pretty significant way.
01:47:18 --> 01:47:21 Yeah, so let me see how I can answer.
01:47:22 --> 01:47:28 So kind of tell the listeners the plot of the book without giving too much away.
01:47:28 --> 01:47:34 And then what do you want readers to take away from the book?
01:47:34 --> 01:47:38 You kind of answered it earlier, But I dive into a little more.
01:47:39 --> 01:47:43 So talk about the plot. And then what, as somebody that reads this book,
01:47:43 --> 01:47:46 what do you want them to get from it?
01:47:48 --> 01:47:54 First part of the book charts Rumsfeld's rise as a politician.
01:47:54 --> 01:47:59 He started in Congress in his 20s and became the youngest and oldest Secretary of Defense.
01:48:00 --> 01:48:03 And in the private sector, he was a very successful CEO.
01:48:03 --> 01:48:10 So the first third or so of the book introduces us to Rumsfeld and his background.
01:48:10 --> 01:48:15 Then the middle part of the book is the Bush administration,
01:48:15 --> 01:48:17 September 11th, the Iraq war.
01:48:17 --> 01:48:23 And then a big, huge counter-history emerges where Rumsfeld becomes president.
01:48:24 --> 01:48:28 Starts a war with Iran, and there's lots of drama around that.
01:48:28 --> 01:48:30 And that gets resolved.
01:48:30 --> 01:48:34 There's a constitutional crisis and the Supreme Court's involved.
01:48:34 --> 01:48:39 And so there's a lot of parallels to some of the things we're seeing today.
01:48:39 --> 01:48:45 And then the last third of the book is really the trial, which borrows from
01:48:45 --> 01:48:47 the first part of the book.
01:48:47 --> 01:48:52 So the trial itself, the underlying facts of the trial relate to the Iraq war.
01:48:53 --> 01:48:58 And so that last third is the trial, the courtroom scenes and the resolution
01:48:58 --> 01:49:03 of both the trial, what happens to Rumsfeld and the accusations.
01:49:03 --> 01:49:08 And then also everything in the book is told through a narrator who was somebody
01:49:08 --> 01:49:12 who knew and knew Rumsfeld well and was a part of these historical events.
01:49:13 --> 01:49:18 And so that's revealed and resolved as well. So that's the overall flow of the book.
01:49:19 --> 01:49:22 Think from what would I want readers to get out of the book,
01:49:22 --> 01:49:26 I mean, there are a couple big themes, but one of them was, like I mentioned,
01:49:26 --> 01:49:28 that these politicians are humans.
01:49:28 --> 01:49:32 And I believe, and you and I have talked about this before, Erik,
01:49:32 --> 01:49:38 that as members of society and citizens and participants in the public square,
01:49:38 --> 01:49:42 I think it's really good to try to have accurate views.
01:49:42 --> 01:49:48 Like you can vote one way every single time and you can want policies to change in a certain direction.
01:49:48 --> 01:49:52 That's great. But your actual inputs into your thinking should be accurate.
01:49:53 --> 01:49:59 And if you think Donald Trump is 5'6", when he's really 6'3", that's not helping you.
01:50:01 --> 01:50:06 You're distorting things. And so one of the ways to be accurate about politics
01:50:06 --> 01:50:10 is just to remember how human it is, how human. Donald Trump is a human.
01:50:10 --> 01:50:16 Donald Rumsfeld was a human. Barack Obama. These are human people with all sorts
01:50:16 --> 01:50:20 of fallibilities strengths and weaknesses just like everyone else they just
01:50:20 --> 01:50:25 happen to have immense power so that was the main point and then i also think
01:50:25 --> 01:50:28 the the probably the second main point was.
01:50:30 --> 01:50:34 We should all be, and we see this every day in very obvious ways right now,
01:50:34 --> 01:50:38 but we should all be on notice of
01:50:38 --> 01:50:41 how the ego of these people
01:50:41 --> 01:50:49 with power can distort their thinking and cause the policies to be deeply flawed
01:50:49 --> 01:50:52 because they're rooted in one's
01:50:52 --> 01:50:58 own self-image and ego and desire to be a hero as opposed to rational.
01:50:58 --> 01:51:04 I think the best leaders we have separate themselves from the questions of how
01:51:04 --> 01:51:07 to solve problems, but that's rare.
01:51:08 --> 01:51:13 The norm is to make it all about yourself, and that's why you see things can
01:51:13 --> 01:51:17 go really, really wrong, like we saw with the Iraq War. Yeah.
01:51:17 --> 01:51:23 So this is really a good book, and you're getting me into the habit of reading
01:51:23 --> 01:51:28 fiction. I think we had had this conversation before that I wasn't a big fiction
01:51:28 --> 01:51:31 reader outside of the sci-fi genre.
01:51:32 --> 01:51:37 But, you know, you're getting me in a good habit of reading good fiction,
01:51:37 --> 01:51:39 especially if you write it.
01:51:39 --> 01:51:45 So I'm really, really proud of the book. I was a little stunned that I got acknowledged
01:51:45 --> 01:51:48 in the book because I don't know what I did to inspire that.
01:51:49 --> 01:51:54 But I encourage everybody to go get it. And we'll talk about that at the end.
01:51:54 --> 01:51:58 But every time I get you on, I want to kind of pick your brain a little bit
01:51:58 --> 01:51:59 about what's happening.
01:52:00 --> 01:52:05 So just on a couple of things, what are your thoughts about the No Kings protests
01:52:05 --> 01:52:08 that have happened this year?
01:52:08 --> 01:52:13 We saw 5 million folks show up earlier this year.
01:52:13 --> 01:52:18 And then just this past weekend, we saw like 7 million people show up.
01:52:18 --> 01:52:20 So what are your thoughts on that?
01:52:21 --> 01:52:24 Yeah. Real quick, I'll note the acknowledgement. I've said this before.
01:52:24 --> 01:52:28 I think you have the best podcast in the world and I love coming on and being
01:52:28 --> 01:52:34 able to talk these things through with you, given the depth of your background
01:52:34 --> 01:52:39 and your insights and that you're unlike so many other people today,
01:52:39 --> 01:52:43 you're just trying to get to the root of these problems in a good way.
01:52:44 --> 01:52:50 So it really it really is a part of my creative process, knowing that we're
01:52:50 --> 01:52:53 going to be talking about these issues, something that I really value.
01:52:54 --> 01:52:58 So thank you for having me on. And that was what was behind that.
01:52:59 --> 01:53:04 In terms of the no kings, I think two things.
01:53:04 --> 01:53:07 Number one, Trump's not a king. He's not even close to the king.
01:53:07 --> 01:53:12 I think there's a lot of truth to a lot of the criticism of Trump.
01:53:12 --> 01:53:17 The notion that he's a dictator, I think, is a blunder.
01:53:19 --> 01:53:22 We can get into the detail, but I don't think it's true at all.
01:53:24 --> 01:53:32 So that's point one. Point two, the depth of the size of the crowd,
01:53:32 --> 01:53:35 the momentum of the protests,
01:53:36 --> 01:53:43 the emotion behind them is yet another example of how highly charged our polity
01:53:43 --> 01:53:53 is and how emotion in so many ways on all sides tends to be dominating reason.
01:53:53 --> 01:53:58 And I think that that's an unfortunate, it's always there to some extent.
01:53:58 --> 01:54:02 It's a very elevated part of our politics today. And I think that's a real problem.
01:54:03 --> 01:54:08 Yeah. I think when you talk about that, he's not a king or a dictator.
01:54:08 --> 01:54:14 I think what we're seeing now is probably the most preemptive thing I've ever
01:54:14 --> 01:54:16 seen in American politics.
01:54:16 --> 01:54:20 I think I agree with you. He has not attained power.
01:54:21 --> 01:54:24 Dictator status, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation.
01:54:25 --> 01:54:29 It wouldn't be in a printer, right? But at the same time,
01:54:30 --> 01:54:36 you know, but because there are enough people that have paid attention to history
01:54:36 --> 01:54:43 and paid attention to politics and have been able to convince people and show people,
01:54:43 --> 01:54:48 hey, this is the trend that we're going, I think people have decided,
01:54:48 --> 01:54:50 Well, no, we don't want that.
01:54:50 --> 01:54:53 And I think that that is what has happened.
01:54:53 --> 01:54:59 Now, the biggest arguments have been, well, it's just a rally and it's not a
01:54:59 --> 01:55:00 sustained protest and all that.
01:55:01 --> 01:55:06 So I think that's the thing we need to watch is what comes of these massive
01:55:06 --> 01:55:12 demonstrations, right? But what kind of sustained protest, what kind of sustained
01:55:12 --> 01:55:15 opposition emerges from that?
01:55:15 --> 01:55:22 And can we actually stop him from actually becoming a true authoritative dictator?
01:55:22 --> 01:55:26 So, you know, I think that's where we are with that.
01:55:27 --> 01:55:30 I think it's a great. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to. No, go ahead. Go ahead.
01:55:31 --> 01:55:35 I think it's a great point. And I love the use of the preemptive,
01:55:35 --> 01:55:36 biggest preemptive movement.
01:55:36 --> 01:55:40 I completely agree. That's a great way to think about that.
01:55:40 --> 01:55:42 I hadn't thought about that. See, that's what I'm talking about.
01:55:42 --> 01:55:46 I hadn't thought about that before. That's perfect because that's what it is.
01:55:47 --> 01:55:53 One of the reasons why he's never going to be anywhere near a dictator is because
01:55:53 --> 01:56:00 of half the country is so against him and the leadership of that opposition.
01:56:00 --> 01:56:08 They're just fiery, preemptive, good, rock-solid opponents.
01:56:08 --> 01:56:11 And they're just not...
01:56:13 --> 01:56:20 Going to go down easy or at all and so i think that's one reason why it's not going to happen,
01:56:21 --> 01:56:25 i would also add i i don't
01:56:25 --> 01:56:29 think he's anywhere near so if you think about the literal meaning of a dictatorship
01:56:29 --> 01:56:34 right it's to dictate government that's just to distill it down to the essence
01:56:34 --> 01:56:40 of what it is if you think about government in america today most of it of the
01:56:40 --> 01:56:45 government that impacts Most of the government that gets our attention is the White House.
01:56:45 --> 01:56:49 Most of the government that impacts our daily lives, as you know, Eric, state and local.
01:56:50 --> 01:56:56 That's where the legal system, you know, for every one Jim Comey federal case
01:56:56 --> 01:56:57 that gets all the headlines,
01:56:58 --> 01:57:05 there's a million state law cases with the local law enforcement and our schools are run locally.
01:57:05 --> 01:57:10 They are, it's all, Trump has nothing to do with the over 90,
01:57:11 --> 01:57:13 overwhelming majority of that.
01:57:14 --> 01:57:19 Even at the federal level, the judiciary is exerting its independence every day.
01:57:19 --> 01:57:24 If the Democrats are very close to winning the house, if they do, they're not.
01:57:25 --> 01:57:29 Ability to do anything there is going to plummet to virtually nothing.
01:57:30 --> 01:57:36 So I think we've got a megalomaniac in the White House with lots of things to
01:57:36 --> 01:57:40 worry about. But the idea that he's going to take over all of these instruments
01:57:40 --> 01:57:44 of government, it's good that we're being preemptive. It's part of why it'll never happen.
01:57:45 --> 01:57:48 But we're not on the five yard line trying to get him, keep him out of the end
01:57:48 --> 01:57:53 zone. We're on the other half of the field playing really good defense.
01:57:54 --> 01:57:58 That's a great analogy. We'll leave it at that. Last question real quick.
01:57:58 --> 01:58:02 Who do you think is winning the shutdown right now? Ooh.
01:58:03 --> 01:58:10 A Martian looking down on America from outer space would immediately say, wait,
01:58:11 --> 01:58:21 Republicans have the presidency, the Congress, both houses, and people are debating who's causing this?
01:58:21 --> 01:58:28 That doesn't even make sense you know when you actually control all three elements
01:58:28 --> 01:58:33 that are required to open and you have the majorities and you've been doing
01:58:33 --> 01:58:38 things with that majority for months on end i don't think this should be a debate
01:58:38 --> 01:58:40 and in some ways it's a it's a,
01:58:41 --> 01:58:47 signal of how dysfunctional our politics are that this is a debate it's it's
01:58:47 --> 01:58:53 kind of this is one of the easiest questions I think that have been posed in politics recently.
01:58:53 --> 01:58:59 If you, if you have majorities in all three, you own it, period.
01:58:59 --> 01:59:04 So another guest is going to be on this particular episode. She stated that
01:59:04 --> 01:59:09 there's no clear winners, but there's a definite loser. And that's the American people.
01:59:11 --> 01:59:15 By virtue of this dysfunction that you're talking about. You agree with that
01:59:15 --> 01:59:19 assessment? I do. And that's such a common thing.
01:59:20 --> 01:59:26 So this dysfunction, it's almost like our politics has transcended the notion
01:59:26 --> 01:59:32 of winners and losers because you can quote unquote lose over and over and over
01:59:32 --> 01:59:34 again, and then your party sweeps the next election.
01:59:35 --> 01:59:40 So the things that matter, the ballot box is ultimately the measure of a win
01:59:40 --> 01:59:42 or a loss. And all these interim.
01:59:44 --> 01:59:48 Announcements are really phantom victories or phantom defeats.
01:59:48 --> 01:59:50 What matters is the ballot box.
01:59:51 --> 01:59:55 In terms of the actual consequence of all of this, yeah, the American people
01:59:55 --> 01:59:59 once again, it's the American people, both sides.
02:00:00 --> 02:00:05 Think about how many Trump voters have had their lives made worse off by his own policies.
02:00:06 --> 02:00:09 But yeah, it's the people, it's the country, it's the people,
02:00:10 --> 02:00:11 it's the polity that lose.
02:00:11 --> 02:00:15 And it's a shame that the guardians of that are
02:00:15 --> 02:00:17 causing it yeah total agreement with
02:00:17 --> 02:00:20 that so look i know you got to go tell people how
02:00:20 --> 02:00:26 they can get this book and how people can reach out to you in the interim thanks
02:00:26 --> 02:00:31 eric so the book's easy to find amazon's the biggest bookstore in the world
02:00:31 --> 02:00:35 by a huge margin but if you if you google the book you'll find it wherever books
02:00:35 --> 02:00:40 are sold barnes and noble etc the trial of donald h rumsfeld,
02:00:41 --> 02:00:46 and if you want to learn more about me, my website is will-cooper.com.
02:00:46 --> 02:00:50 It's W-I-L-L-C-O-O-P-E-R.com.
02:00:51 --> 02:00:56 Well, Will, as always, brother, it's good to see you. It's good to talk to you.
02:00:56 --> 02:01:02 Keep doing what you're doing, man, and we're going to be doing this for a while,
02:01:02 --> 02:01:06 it looks like, so I'm glad that you're on my side. Let me put it that way.
02:01:07 --> 02:01:08 I appreciate it. Absolutely.
02:01:09 --> 02:01:14 Everything you just said right back at you thank you love coming on and yes
02:01:14 --> 02:01:19 10 years from now we'll be sitting just like this on your show talking about
02:01:19 --> 02:01:24 whatever the whatever the big things are of the day and i appreciate that very
02:01:24 --> 02:01:26 much all right guys and we're going to catch out on the.
02:01:39 --> 02:01:43 All right, and we are back. And so I want to thank Dr.
02:01:43 --> 02:01:50 C. Nicole Mason, Maura Gillespie, and Will Cooper for coming on the podcast.
02:01:50 --> 02:01:56 And I hope you agree with me that they have made this truly a great show.
02:01:57 --> 02:02:05 You know, in talking to people that, and I always, some people call it self-deprecation.
02:02:05 --> 02:02:08 And I just, you know, I'm being honest.
02:02:08 --> 02:02:14 It's just really good to talk to people who are really, really smart, even smarter than me.
02:02:14 --> 02:02:21 And to pick their brain for the short time that I can get them to talk about
02:02:21 --> 02:02:30 what's going on and just kind of give perspective so that you all can hear that, you know.
02:02:31 --> 02:02:41 Dr. Mason is a fierce warrior for women's rights, and she uses her talents of
02:02:41 --> 02:02:44 research and analysis to fight that fight.
02:02:45 --> 02:02:51 And like she said in the interview, you know, she's never shy of attending a good protest.
02:02:52 --> 02:02:56 And she said she was at both of the No Kings rallies this year.
02:02:56 --> 02:03:03 So, you know, I mean, not only is she doing the analytical part,
02:03:03 --> 02:03:06 but she's boots on the ground as well.
02:03:07 --> 02:03:12 And then to have Maura Gillespie on, Maura is a Republican.
02:03:13 --> 02:03:20 And but she is of the tradition of the Republicans that I was used to serving with.
02:03:20 --> 02:03:25 Somebody you could actually talk to, even if you disagree on something.
02:03:25 --> 02:03:30 But her insight, and she's young compared to me.
02:03:31 --> 02:03:37 She's very young. But her political maturity is amazing.
02:03:37 --> 02:03:47 And her ability to stay focused and calm, whether she's on Fox News or anywhere else,
02:03:47 --> 02:03:52 in addressing issues and just being matter of fact about it.
02:03:52 --> 02:03:58 It's something I've admired, and I'm just finally glad that I was able to get
02:03:58 --> 02:04:01 her into the fold and to be a guest on this podcast.
02:04:02 --> 02:04:03 And then, of course, Will Cooper.
02:04:04 --> 02:04:10 Will is truly not only a good guy, but he's very, very smart.
02:04:10 --> 02:04:13 And the way that he can...
02:04:14 --> 02:04:20 Sift through all of the craziness and develop rational thoughts,
02:04:20 --> 02:04:25 whether he's writing a book or writing a column, you know, to make people that,
02:04:25 --> 02:04:31 you know, think about what actually is happening to really be able to get it
02:04:31 --> 02:04:34 where people can understand it. It's an incredible talent.
02:04:34 --> 02:04:38 And I am glad that he thinks highly of me.
02:04:38 --> 02:04:41 I am humbled that he thinks highly of me.
02:04:42 --> 02:04:47 And as long as I'm doing this podcast, Will is going to be a guest.
02:04:47 --> 02:04:52 He's pretty much made that clear, but I'm really, really proud of him for this
02:04:52 --> 02:04:55 book, The Trial of Donald H. Rumsfeld.
02:04:56 --> 02:05:00 Didn't see that coming, but when he sent me a copy of it, I was like,
02:05:00 --> 02:05:02 oh yeah, we got to talk about this.
02:05:02 --> 02:05:06 So I'm glad we were able to make the time to do that. So, you know,
02:05:06 --> 02:05:13 I love all of my I guests they come on, but to have these three particular guests
02:05:13 --> 02:05:15 at this time, it's really, really special.
02:05:15 --> 02:05:17 And I'm glad we were able to make that happen.
02:05:18 --> 02:05:21 So I want to talk about a couple of things before we leave.
02:05:22 --> 02:05:28 One is something I had, I had mentioned in one of the interviews, I think it was with Dr.
02:05:28 --> 02:05:35 Mason, when we were talking about the protests and how the election went down or.
02:05:36 --> 02:05:42 I said something to the effect that people voted, people are politically active
02:05:42 --> 02:05:49 in the United States more on coincidence than they are on consciousness, right?
02:05:49 --> 02:05:56 And the goal of this podcast and others like me are trying to get that reversed, right?
02:05:57 --> 02:06:04 Because it's one thing for me to say, hey, the price of my eggs have gone up,
02:06:04 --> 02:06:09 right? And then you talk to somebody in another part of the country,
02:06:09 --> 02:06:11 and they say, yeah, they have gone up.
02:06:12 --> 02:06:16 And then United, we say, we need to vote for somebody that's going to do something
02:06:16 --> 02:06:19 about it. That's coincidence, right?
02:06:19 --> 02:06:26 But where consciousness plays in is that we can decide which person is sincere
02:06:26 --> 02:06:30 about doing that and which one is just bullshitting about it, right?
02:06:31 --> 02:06:33 And that's where we didn't have any consciousness.
02:06:34 --> 02:06:41 We voted on the coincidence that all of us are suffering from the high prices of food.
02:06:41 --> 02:06:48 And we didn't put any real thought into who really is going to try to do something
02:06:48 --> 02:06:51 about it or who's just giving us lip service. Right.
02:06:52 --> 02:06:55 And so that's why we had the result we had in 2024.
02:06:56 --> 02:06:57 And that's being...
02:06:59 --> 02:07:03 Case scenario about it. Because a lot of us know there was a lot of other factors
02:07:03 --> 02:07:11 that kicked in as to why that man got reelected and that woman did not get elected, right?
02:07:12 --> 02:07:22 So we know that there's a lot of historical sociological stuff that played into what happened.
02:07:22 --> 02:07:27 But in best case scenario, let's just say people voted more with coincidence
02:07:27 --> 02:07:29 than they did with consciousness.
02:07:30 --> 02:07:36 And we've got to get to a point where we want people to vote consciously.
02:07:36 --> 02:07:40 Yes, we want people to be woke. We don't want people to be asleep.
02:07:41 --> 02:07:47 When they go to the polls, we want them to be woke. We want them to be paying attention, right?
02:07:48 --> 02:07:59 And so I guess now it's time for another great awakening, this time in American politics, right?
02:07:59 --> 02:08:04 Because the first great awakening in American society was based on religion.
02:08:05 --> 02:08:13 Now we have to have an awakening in American politics because we see when we
02:08:13 --> 02:08:17 don't use our consciousness, we see the results.
02:08:17 --> 02:08:23 Now, and that brings me to another point. There are people that are upset because
02:08:23 --> 02:08:30 President Trump has decided to renovate the White House and add this giant 92.
02:08:32 --> 02:08:35 Thousand-foot, square-foot ballroom, right?
02:08:36 --> 02:08:41 So in history, different presidents have done things to the house.
02:08:42 --> 02:08:47 That house is not the same as it was when it was first built for John Adams, right?
02:08:47 --> 02:08:51 It actually has burnt up since then, right?
02:08:51 --> 02:08:56 War 1812, the British burned the White House, So they had to redo it then,
02:08:57 --> 02:09:03 you know, and people were upset when Thomas Jefferson added like portico, you know,
02:09:03 --> 02:09:09 not porticos, but he added like extensions, you know, where you could walk from
02:09:09 --> 02:09:13 your horse to the, to the White House, not in the rain.
02:09:13 --> 02:09:14 People got upset about that because
02:09:14 --> 02:09:19 he added that to it. When Harry Truman gutted the White House, right?
02:09:19 --> 02:09:22 And he lived in the Blair House across the street.
02:09:23 --> 02:09:27 Republicans were upset about him destroying the White House then.
02:09:27 --> 02:09:30 And it's kind of like, bro, we got to modernize the building.
02:09:31 --> 02:09:33 The building is literally about to fall upon itself.
02:09:34 --> 02:09:36 We got to do some structural work on it.
02:09:37 --> 02:09:41 So, you know, people are upset about this image.
02:09:41 --> 02:09:47 Seeing the East Wing being torn off, you probably will freak out when you see
02:09:47 --> 02:09:53 the pictures of the White House in 1948 when it's nothing but a shell of a building.
02:09:53 --> 02:09:57 There's steel beams holding up the original walls, right?
02:09:57 --> 02:10:03 I mean, those things happen. I mean, Jackie Kennedy created the Rose Garden.
02:10:03 --> 02:10:05 That was an alteration to the White House.
02:10:06 --> 02:10:10 Now, Donald Trump has paved over that. That's, you know, he said people were
02:10:10 --> 02:10:13 getting stuck in when the grass was wet and all that.
02:10:14 --> 02:10:17 And he just didn't want people to have that.
02:10:17 --> 02:10:21 I guess folks were complaining about mud on their high-priced shoes or whatever.
02:10:22 --> 02:10:31 So be it. You know, to me, it's about timing and about the allegory more so
02:10:31 --> 02:10:36 than the actual him wanting to build his ballroom.
02:10:36 --> 02:10:42 Right. I mean, you know, it's all about his pretension anyway.
02:10:42 --> 02:10:52 We get that. But just the visual of the White House being damaged is more allegorical.
02:10:53 --> 02:10:58 As far as his style of governing. Right.
02:10:59 --> 02:11:02 It's like that's the picture.
02:11:03 --> 02:11:09 You know, if I was consulting a campaign, I would probably say,
02:11:10 --> 02:11:13 you know, just like he's tearing up the White House, he's tearing up America.
02:11:14 --> 02:11:22 Right. So it's all about allegory and timing rather than because if he was a
02:11:22 --> 02:11:25 popular president, he said, I want to have a ballroom. Nobody would be upset.
02:11:26 --> 02:11:31 Right. But because he's a terrible president, he's tearing up the White House.
02:11:31 --> 02:11:33 Folks are losing their mind. Right.
02:11:34 --> 02:11:36 I mean, Truman was not a popular president.
02:11:37 --> 02:11:41 So even though the White House needed to be refurbished, you know,
02:11:42 --> 02:11:45 his political opponents, the Republicans, laid into him. I mean,
02:11:45 --> 02:11:47 he wasn't even supposed to beat Dewey.
02:11:48 --> 02:11:51 You know what I'm saying? There we are.
02:11:51 --> 02:11:57 So I think, you know, people want to be upset about that, so be it.
02:11:57 --> 02:12:01 But I'm more upset about the damage he's doing to the actual U.S.
02:12:01 --> 02:12:04 Government, the damage he's doing to the United States Constitution,
02:12:04 --> 02:12:11 the damage that he's doing to institutions, whether they're in Washington or not,
02:12:12 --> 02:12:17 such as like wanting to blackball the Southern Poverty Law Center or,
02:12:17 --> 02:12:22 you know, go after nonprofits that are trying to feed people.
02:12:22 --> 02:12:27 I'm more concerned about that than I am about historical architecture,
02:12:27 --> 02:12:34 to be honest, because history has shown that we've gotten a little over emotional about that.
02:12:35 --> 02:12:39 But again, it's about timing and allegory. So...
02:12:41 --> 02:12:48 Let's not get tied up and focus on our energy and outrage on that when there's
02:12:48 --> 02:12:51 so much more that we can be upset about, right?
02:12:53 --> 02:13:05 And I just really think that at some point in time, we are going to have to mature about politics.
02:13:05 --> 02:13:09 And I guess that's where this commentary is going.
02:13:10 --> 02:13:17 You know, we have to be conscious about who we vote for. We have to be mad about the right things.
02:13:18 --> 02:13:26 And we have to do constructive actions to make those changes.
02:13:27 --> 02:13:32 I think 7 million people showing up to protest is a constructive thing.
02:13:33 --> 02:13:39 I wouldn't have been in the position to be elected if it wasn't for thousands
02:13:39 --> 02:13:44 of people in the South that look like me protesting.
02:13:45 --> 02:13:51 Right? Whether it was a sit-in, a bus boycott, a march, across a bridge,
02:13:52 --> 02:13:56 praying in front of a city hall. Right? Thank you.
02:13:57 --> 02:14:04 Things led to positive actions that gave people like me civil and voting rights.
02:14:04 --> 02:14:10 And I know what it's going to take for economic rights, but we're going to figure
02:14:10 --> 02:14:12 it out because that's what we do.
02:14:13 --> 02:14:23 You know, and for those of you all who think that America should be an all-white nation or, Or,
02:14:23 --> 02:14:29 you know, the military should be all white or the NFL should be all white or
02:14:29 --> 02:14:32 the Super Bowl halftime entertainment should be all white.
02:14:33 --> 02:14:38 You got to get off of that bus because that's not the reality of the world that we live in now.
02:14:39 --> 02:14:43 So I stated in my last podcast, this is a global economy.
02:14:43 --> 02:14:46 So there's people that's not going to be white making money.
02:14:47 --> 02:14:53 There's people that's not even American making billions of American dollars. Right.
02:14:53 --> 02:14:56 Because that's the way the economy is set up.
02:14:57 --> 02:15:03 Countries that technically are not even capitalistic countries trade with us
02:15:03 --> 02:15:07 because we're the biggest consumers on the planet, right?
02:15:08 --> 02:15:15 So if the economy is global, then your mindset needs to be global.
02:15:15 --> 02:15:23 And there is no other country in the world that has a representative from any
02:15:23 --> 02:15:25 country of every country in the world.
02:15:26 --> 02:15:30 United States. There's no other country like us. There are literally people
02:15:30 --> 02:15:36 from every country represented in the United States of America, every one.
02:15:37 --> 02:15:40 And so you got to think like that.
02:15:41 --> 02:15:47 If you're uncomfortable with people that don't look like you being in leadership, get over it.
02:15:48 --> 02:15:52 I mean, there's no other way to say it.
02:15:52 --> 02:16:02 You just have to get over it. and find your niche to make a living or a profit
02:16:02 --> 02:16:07 even in this global economy, in this new world that we're in.
02:16:08 --> 02:16:14 Your politics is not going to save you because the politics is getting as diverse
02:16:14 --> 02:16:18 as the actual population itself, right?
02:16:19 --> 02:16:26 We've got to get out of that mindset. And then I just want you to imagine if you got what you wanted.
02:16:26 --> 02:16:29 Can you imagine a U.S. military with nothing but white men?
02:16:30 --> 02:16:35 We would get blown away. We might hold our own against Canada.
02:16:36 --> 02:16:39 I don't even know if we can hold our own against Mexico, right?
02:16:40 --> 02:16:45 Let alone Russia or Ukraine decide to turn on.
02:16:45 --> 02:16:49 Heck, I don't even know if we could. We're trying to start a war with Venezuela
02:16:49 --> 02:16:52 and Argentina. Tina, I don't know if we would do that well against them.
02:16:53 --> 02:16:56 It was just all white men, right?
02:16:57 --> 02:17:03 So if we can't defend a nation with just all white men, why are we advocating for that?
02:17:04 --> 02:17:12 I think, if anything, we should have learned that every American contributes.
02:17:13 --> 02:17:20 And if every American is not contributing, then we need to make sure that they are.
02:17:20 --> 02:17:25 Right? Now, people have their own free will, and if they choose to, say,
02:17:26 --> 02:17:32 go into crime or, you know, decide that they want to isolate themselves and
02:17:32 --> 02:17:35 become homeless or whatever, can't really do anything about that.
02:17:35 --> 02:17:38 But those people that want to do something, that want to do better,
02:17:38 --> 02:17:46 which is the overwhelming vast majority of Americans, they want to live in a
02:17:46 --> 02:17:48 crime-free neighborhood. They want to be able to make a decent living.
02:17:49 --> 02:17:52 They want to be able to go to the school of their choice.
02:17:53 --> 02:17:56 Then let's make that happen. Let's stop playing games and say,
02:17:56 --> 02:17:57 well, they can't go to this one,
02:17:57 --> 02:18:03 or we can't find a way to get people into this job or into this school,
02:18:03 --> 02:18:10 that we can't make folks leaders in our military. Just stop.
02:18:11 --> 02:18:19 And if you really want to be a meritocracy, then step up your game instead of
02:18:19 --> 02:18:22 living off shame, right?
02:18:22 --> 02:18:28 Step up your game. Be the best that you can be instead of trying to deny the
02:18:28 --> 02:18:31 opportunity for others to be the best they can be.
02:18:32 --> 02:18:39 The only way we're going to make it another 250 years is that we stop with.
02:18:40 --> 02:18:43 Talk, that we stop with the racism,
02:18:43 --> 02:18:52 that we just pick people to lead that understand what America is about,
02:18:52 --> 02:18:55 that we seek to elevate every person.
02:18:56 --> 02:19:00 The wealthiest nation in the world should not have homeless people.
02:19:00 --> 02:19:05 The wealthiest nation in the world should be the healthiest nation in the world,
02:19:05 --> 02:19:07 and nobody should have to pay for health care.
02:19:07 --> 02:19:12 The wealthiest nation in the world shouldn't have unemployment.
02:19:13 --> 02:19:17 The fact that we are, in spite of all that, is amazing.
02:19:18 --> 02:19:25 But just imagine how much better we would be if our public policy was dictated
02:19:25 --> 02:19:29 toward making sure that those things happened, right?
02:19:30 --> 02:19:32 Prioritizing for that.
02:19:34 --> 02:19:37 I mean, Elon Musk can make as much money as he wants.
02:19:38 --> 02:19:44 If everybody's buying a Tesla, cool. So therefore, we got to have jobs and we
02:19:44 --> 02:19:47 got to have incomes where people can afford to pay for a Tesla.
02:19:47 --> 02:19:51 And they need to be healthy to drive it, right? They need to have good vision,
02:19:51 --> 02:19:53 good reflexes, all that stuff.
02:19:54 --> 02:19:58 And you want them to have it for a long time. Again, a health issue.
02:19:58 --> 02:20:03 You want them to be smart enough to figure out how to use the car. That's education.
02:20:04 --> 02:20:08 You want them to be smart enough to build a car. That's education, right?
02:20:09 --> 02:20:14 It's not an incredible ask. It's an incredible commitment.
02:20:15 --> 02:20:18 And the United States of America can do it.
02:20:19 --> 02:20:25 People like to always use the phrase, I can because I'm an American, right?
02:20:25 --> 02:20:28 It, then live up to that and stop
02:20:28 --> 02:20:37 worrying about who's not the right shade of skin complexion or if English is
02:20:37 --> 02:20:42 their second language or who they decide that they want to live the rest of
02:20:42 --> 02:20:46 their life with or live the rest of their life being.
02:20:47 --> 02:20:52 Get off of that. None of those things are a factor in the person that you look
02:20:52 --> 02:20:54 in the mirror every day. Nothing.
02:20:54 --> 02:21:00 God made you who you are. It's up to you to make the most of it.
02:21:01 --> 02:21:04 And in America, that should be the case.
02:21:05 --> 02:21:07 That's all I got. Thank y'all for listening.