Host Erik Fleming sits down with three remarkable guests: Dr. Erica B. Wattley on leadership, education and cybersecurity; Victoria Hetherington on her book The Friend Machine and the ethics of AI companionship; and Pamela Campos‑Palma on political organizing, veterans' advocacy, and movement strategy. The episode also opens with a concise news roundup that sets the context for each conversation.
These interviews blend practical leadership tips, probing questions about technology and companionship, and urgent calls to civic engagement — offering listeners accessible insights on power, hope, and how communities can push for meaningful change.
00:00:00 --> 00:00:06 Welcome. I'm Erik Fleming, host of A Moment with Erik Fleming, the podcast of our time.
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00:02:00 --> 00:02:05 Hello, welcome to another moment, Erik Fleming. I am your host, Erik Fleming.
00:02:06 --> 00:02:14 So on this episode, I've got three guests who are three very fascinating women.
00:02:14 --> 00:02:20 I have Dr. Erica Wattley, who's going to talk about leadership.
00:02:21 --> 00:02:27 I have Victoria Hetherington, who is going to talk about her book,
00:02:27 --> 00:02:33 The Friend Machine, which deals with relationships with artificial intelligence.
00:02:34 --> 00:02:39 Yes, it's a very fascinating interview and an incredible book.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:50 And Pamela Campos-Palma, who has decided to be more of a free agent in her political
00:02:50 --> 00:02:52 strategy and organizing,
00:02:53 --> 00:02:57 but she has founded organizations, she has led organizations.
00:02:58 --> 00:03:04 And she is still engaged in the fight for veterans and for marginalized people,
00:03:05 --> 00:03:06 in the political process.
00:03:07 --> 00:03:12 So I think you're going to enjoy the conversations with all three of these women,
00:03:13 --> 00:03:17 and just like you enjoy this podcast.
00:03:18 --> 00:03:26 We ask people that if you do support the podcast, please do so by going to www.momenteric.com.
00:03:27 --> 00:03:32 You know, make a financial contribution either as a one-time donation or subscription.
00:03:33 --> 00:03:38 Catch up on episodes, the whole nine yards. So we greatly appreciate your continued
00:03:38 --> 00:03:39 support even by listening.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:46 And, you know, these are interesting times. and I've been very fortunate to
00:03:46 --> 00:03:48 have interesting people,
00:03:49 --> 00:03:55 analyze and discuss these times that we are in and we are hoping that we are
00:03:55 --> 00:04:00 inspiring some people, that we are energizing some people, that we are encouraging people.
00:04:01 --> 00:04:07 Because the one thing we never want to lose in this time is hope.
00:04:08 --> 00:04:15 All right. So now that I've gotten us caught up and set up for this episode,
00:04:16 --> 00:04:21 it's time to kick it off. And as always, we kick it off with a moment of news with Grace G.
00:04:28 --> 00:04:33 Thanks, Erik. A private autopsy of Nolan Wells, a black college football player
00:04:33 --> 00:04:36 found dead off the coast of Mississippi, could not rule out foul play,
00:04:36 --> 00:04:39 prompting his family to demand further investigation.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 A coalition of mostly Democratic-led states sued to block the Department of
00:04:44 --> 00:04:49 Homeland Security from withholding over $1 billion in disaster preparedness
00:04:49 --> 00:04:54 grants to force states into adopting the Trump administration's preferred election practices.
00:04:55 --> 00:05:00 U.S. Representative Ralph Norman and Senator Darlene Graham will run in a South
00:05:00 --> 00:05:04 Carolina Republican special primary to replace the late U.S.
00:05:04 --> 00:05:05 Senator Lindsey Graham.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:10 Former Maine Senate President Troy Jackson has effectively secured the Democratic
00:05:10 --> 00:05:15 nomination to challenge incumbent Republican U.S. Senator Susan Collins.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:20 Democrat Amish Shah and Republican Jay Feely won their respective primaries
00:05:20 --> 00:05:25 for Arizona's first congressional district, while U.S. Representative Andy Biggs
00:05:25 --> 00:05:27 secured the Republican nomination for governor.
00:05:28 --> 00:05:32 Vance Velter received a life sentence in federal prison for assassinating one
00:05:32 --> 00:05:37 Minnesota Democratic lawmaker, Melissa Hortman, and attempting to murder another.
00:05:38 --> 00:05:43 A U.S. judge set a June 2027 trial date for ousted Venezuelan President Nicolas
00:05:43 --> 00:05:48 Maduro on drug trafficking charges, though his defense plans to seek dismissal
00:05:48 --> 00:05:50 by citing sovereign immunity.
00:05:50 --> 00:05:56 U.S. Army veteran Andrew Arabaca was arrested after protesting ICE by pouring
00:05:56 --> 00:06:00 gasoline and setting a fire at a federal building in Lower Manhattan.
00:06:00 --> 00:06:04 The Trump administration is withdrawing controversial subpoenas issued to New
00:06:04 --> 00:06:09 York Times journalists during a leak investigation regarding the president's flights.
00:06:09 --> 00:06:13 A Texas appeals court reversed the closure of three clinics managed by a Houston
00:06:13 --> 00:06:18 midwife, ruling the state attorney general lacked evidence that she violated
00:06:18 --> 00:06:19 the state's abortion ban.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:30 And the CDC reported 4 lab-confirmed cases of cyclosporiasis across 41 states since May 1st,
00:06:30 --> 00:06:35 with over 7 additional cases still under investigation.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:39 I am Grace G., and this has been a Moment of News.
00:06:46 --> 00:06:50 All right. Thank you, Grace, for that moment of news. And now it is time for
00:06:50 --> 00:06:53 my guest, Dr. Erica B. Wattley.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 Dr. Wattley, renowned for her leadership as the number one nationally ranked
00:06:57 --> 00:07:05 salesperson for T-Mobile in 2024 and 2025, she is currently the sales director at IntelliCom.
00:07:05 --> 00:07:10 And previously, she was the global director of customer success for cybersecurity
00:07:10 --> 00:07:15 operations in North and Latin America at Hush Cyber LLC in Atlanta.
00:07:16 --> 00:07:21 In addition to managing the overall effectiveness of the client support specialists
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 as they coordinate with the client support manager, Dr.
00:07:24 --> 00:07:30 Wattley tracks and optimizes key metrics, provides global network security policy
00:07:30 --> 00:07:32 management support for international and U.S.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:37 Clients, and, among other responsibilities, ensures that customers have access
00:07:38 --> 00:07:41 to customized solutions that suit their network environment.
00:07:41 --> 00:07:46 Having entered the industry more than 15 years ago, Dr. Wattley was chief academic
00:07:46 --> 00:07:53 officer at Frame Change from 2020 to 2022 and Cybersecurity Institute between 2016 and 2017.
00:07:54 --> 00:08:00 She also leveraged her expertise as a Senior Advisor Program Manager of Technology
00:08:00 --> 00:08:08 Infrastructure and Managing Professor of Online Programs at Argozi University from 2009 to 2016.
00:08:09 --> 00:08:15 Among other noteworthy roles, Dr. Wattley provided her services in a consultant capacity.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:21 Besides her professional goals, Dr. Wattley has been active in the classroom.
00:08:21 --> 00:08:24 In addition to serving as a professor at Unity College.
00:08:25 --> 00:08:29 She has been an assistant professor of technical instructional design at the
00:08:29 --> 00:08:34 University of Washington since 2020 and an adjunct professor at the Chicago
00:08:34 --> 00:08:37 School of Professional Psychology since 2020.
00:08:38 --> 00:08:42 As a scholar and expert in her field, Dr. Wiley has authored many professional
00:08:42 --> 00:08:46 cybersecurity articles, including Start with the One in the Mirror,
00:08:46 --> 00:08:54 Building the Best Cybersecurity Customer Success Team, A Guide to Team Building Done Right in 2023.
00:08:55 --> 00:09:01 Cybersecurity Customer Success Plans, Measuring Security Protocol Performance
00:09:01 --> 00:09:04 Trust, Your CSM, in 2023,
00:09:05 --> 00:09:11 and Facing Something New, Trust Yourself and Be a Boss, Customer Success Manager's
00:09:11 --> 00:09:14 Guide to Confidence, also in 2023.
00:09:15 --> 00:09:19 She has also contributed several book chapters and has spoken publicly in the field.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:23 An avid leader in her community, like her great uncle, Dr.
00:09:23 --> 00:09:27 Benjamin Elijah Mays, senior advisor and spiritual mentor to Dr.
00:09:27 --> 00:09:33 Martin Luther King Jr., and advisors to President Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, and Ford, Dr.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:38 Wattley has notably served as a national media spokesperson for AdoptUsKids.org,
00:09:39 --> 00:09:44 National Adoption Association, advocating and encouraging everyone to help find
00:09:44 --> 00:09:47 forever families for children since 2024,
00:09:47 --> 00:09:54 and JustPennies.org, an organization dedicated to social change through education
00:09:54 --> 00:09:57 and technology and cybersecurity-related fields.
00:09:58 --> 00:10:02 She has also served as a board member for organizations that support youth development,
00:10:02 --> 00:10:06 like the Atlanta Girls Choir, founded by Daryl and Mag Wattley,
00:10:07 --> 00:10:13 Campus Insights, A-Plus Enrichment Services, and Studio X Elite Dance Company.
00:10:13 --> 00:10:19 Also as a Georgia representative for the National Young Leaders Conference in Washington, D.C.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 Highly educated, Dr. Wadley completed a course of study in Portuguese at the
00:10:24 --> 00:10:29 Universidade de Coimbra in Portugal.
00:10:30 --> 00:10:35 She subsequently graduated with distinction and earned a bachelor's degree in
00:10:35 --> 00:10:41 Spanish language and literature from the Universidad de Valladolid in Spain,
00:10:42 --> 00:10:46 and a second bachelor's of education and bachelor of arts in Spanish language
00:10:46 --> 00:10:49 and literature and education from Iowa State University's,
00:10:50 --> 00:10:54 School of Science and Technology on a full academic scholarship.
00:10:54 --> 00:11:00 Mover, Dr. Wadley completed a Master of Science in Adult Learning and Leadership
00:11:00 --> 00:11:04 and a Doctor in Education and Administrative Leadership from Walden University.
00:11:04 --> 00:11:08 She speaks Spanish, Portuguese, French, and English fluently.
00:11:09 --> 00:11:13 To remain aware of developments in the field, Dr. Wattley has been a board member
00:11:13 --> 00:11:16 of the American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:21 Dr. Wattley has received several awards for her work in education,
00:11:21 --> 00:11:26 including being named as the External Partner Engagement Coordinator of the
00:11:26 --> 00:11:31 Year, as the Georgia Cyber Academy's Teacher of the Year, and as Radio 1,
00:11:32 --> 00:11:34 of Atlanta's Community Teacher of the Year.
00:11:35 --> 00:11:39 She also earned numerous accolades for her educational accomplishments,
00:11:39 --> 00:11:44 including more than 40 academic trophies, and being named as the Iowa State
00:11:44 --> 00:11:49 University of Science and Technology's Ronald E. McNair Scholar and Researcher.
00:11:49 --> 00:11:53 Dr. Wattley credits her success to her Christian faith in God,
00:11:54 --> 00:11:58 her parents, Reverend Tyrone Hicks, a retired federal agent,
00:11:59 --> 00:12:02 and Janice Hicks, a retired teacher of the year.
00:12:03 --> 00:12:07 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,
00:12:08 --> 00:12:11 on this podcast, Dr. Erica B. Wattley.
00:12:23 --> 00:12:28 All right. Dr. Erica B. Wattley. How are you doing, Cicely? You doing good?
00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 I am doing great. Erik, thank you so much for having me.
00:12:32 --> 00:12:35 Well, thank you for accepting the invitation. You know, I had to do a little
00:12:35 --> 00:12:41 rearranging on the schedule, but we got you back on. So I'm really, really glad about that.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:46 So one of the things I like to do to kick the conversation off is I do a couple
00:12:46 --> 00:12:48 of icebreaker exercises.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:55 You being a facilitator, you know what that is. And hopefully it might not be
00:12:55 --> 00:12:59 as fun and engaging as yours, but we're going to try it. Okay.
00:12:59 --> 00:13:03 And I hope I don't lose this game. All right, let's go. All right.
00:13:04 --> 00:13:09 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:15 Okay. And the quote is, the tragedy of life doesn't lie in not reaching your goal.
00:13:16 --> 00:13:19 The tragedy lies in having no goal to reach.
00:13:19 --> 00:13:25 It isn't a calamity to die with dreams unfulfilled, but it is a calamity not to dream.
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 It is not a disgrace not to reach the stars, but it is a disgrace to have no stars to reach for.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:35 Not failure, but low aim is sin.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:41 That actually, if I'm not mistaken, is a quote from Dr. Benjamin Elijah Mays,
00:13:42 --> 00:13:44 who happens to be my great uncle.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:48 And the school I graduated from,
00:13:48 --> 00:13:52 Benjamin Elijah Mays High School in the Atlanta public school system.
00:13:55 --> 00:14:00 That school was named for him and he's buried on the campus of Morehouse College.
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 I mean, he was the president there for seven years and he was an advisor to
00:14:03 --> 00:14:05 four different presidents.
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 Yeah, yeah. So what does that quote mean to you?
00:14:09 --> 00:14:16 Another, I'll start by saying that I heard a preacher say one time that.
00:14:18 --> 00:14:24 One of his concerns was that he feared that we were raising a generation,
00:14:25 --> 00:14:29 not that wasn't doing the right thing, but didn't even know what the right thing was.
00:14:30 --> 00:14:36 And so it kind of fits in with that to me, that if you don't even have a goal
00:14:36 --> 00:14:42 that you're reaching for, you don't even have a vision, you have nothing that
00:14:42 --> 00:14:43 you are trying to accomplish.
00:14:44 --> 00:14:48 And unfortunately, I see that a lot lately.
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 I mean, I know that it takes time to really kind of come into yourself.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:56 I still feel like I'm evolving like every day and trying to get better,
00:14:57 --> 00:15:02 but I feel like there is a lot of, as our culture has changed into,
00:15:02 --> 00:15:07 I guess, let's keep it 100, you know, or let's, you know, keep it real.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:15 I think a lot of people have kind of leaned into a, I'm just going to go with
00:15:15 --> 00:15:18 how I feel and live in the moment and that kind of thing.
00:15:19 --> 00:15:27 And it has made it to where the achievement of goals, setting goals,
00:15:27 --> 00:15:31 and looking toward what's in the future and how do I get there,
00:15:31 --> 00:15:38 putting a plan of action in place and doing things on a regular basis that are
00:15:38 --> 00:15:40 going to actually get you to that goal.
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 Those are disciplines that are not always being practiced.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:50 Yeah. All right. So, and by the way, if we had a prize, you would have won since
00:15:50 --> 00:15:52 you knew that was your great uncle that said that.
00:15:52 --> 00:15:57 The next icebreaker is what we call 20 questions. Okay. So I need you to give
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 me a number between one and 20.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:06 Seven. All right. What do you consider the best way to stay informed about politics,
00:16:06 --> 00:16:08 current events, health, et cetera?
00:16:11 --> 00:16:15 I'm the worst. Oh my God. That's the worst thing you could ask me.
00:16:16 --> 00:16:21 I'm a person where things loop in my head, right? And so the news completely
00:16:21 --> 00:16:26 stresses me out because they come on and they tell you, oh my God, there was a,
00:16:26 --> 00:16:31 war or somebody dropped a bomb or this terrible thing happened to this family
00:16:31 --> 00:16:33 or whatever. And they're like, news at 10.
00:16:34 --> 00:16:37 And then you're like, wait, I'm not gonna be here at 10 or whatever.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:40 And you never, they never tell you the end of the story.
00:16:41 --> 00:16:45 So I'm just like stressed out about the war, the bomb, you know,
00:16:45 --> 00:16:48 this thing that happens to the family, and they never tell you the answer, right?
00:16:49 --> 00:17:00 So I am very bad about staying current with those trends, and I end up getting them by third party.
00:17:03 --> 00:17:07 They have to be really important to come up for me. But honestly,
00:17:07 --> 00:17:11 I do get them. I attend a lot of events with the council for quality growth.
00:17:11 --> 00:17:15 And I feel like I get them before they hit the news.
00:17:16 --> 00:17:20 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause if you show up at a think tank like that,
00:17:20 --> 00:17:26 yeah, that's going to be, uh, that's going to be some, what they call insider information.
00:17:26 --> 00:17:30 Yes. Yeah. So you, you get, you get the news before it hits,
00:17:30 --> 00:17:33 but that's the whole point doc about the, it's a teaser.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:36 It's supposed to get you excited to figure out, yeah, I want to see,
00:17:36 --> 00:17:40 I want to see, I want to see this bomb drop i want it whatever whatever the
00:17:40 --> 00:17:45 news teaser is yeah but they i see they got to work harder to get you to watch
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 the local news anyway but that's fine that's good,
00:17:48 --> 00:17:53 what do you love about being an educator and when did you acknowledge that was your calling,
00:17:54 --> 00:17:55 okay so,
00:17:56 --> 00:17:57 i think i think.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:06 For me, so I taught for 15 years in the K-12 sector, and then I taught for 12
00:18:06 --> 00:18:08 years at the university level.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:15 What ended up happening was, initially, my love was not for education itself,
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 but it was for my languages. So I speak Spanish, French, and Portuguese,
00:18:20 --> 00:18:23 and I just absolutely was in love with Spanish.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:28 And so I won best in Spanish one, two, three, four, and five most outstanding
00:18:28 --> 00:18:31 high school student for foreign languages for the city of Atlanta.
00:18:32 --> 00:18:36 I went to governor's honors in Spanish then I went and studied at la Universidad
00:18:36 --> 00:18:41 de Valladolid in Spain and I got a sobresaliente rating from there in Portugal.
00:18:41 --> 00:18:43 I was one of three students selected from Iowa State.
00:18:44 --> 00:18:52 I went to Paris You know, when I was on vacations there, studying in Spain.
00:18:53 --> 00:18:59 And so I just loved languages. Iowa State had a requirement that if you graduated
00:18:59 --> 00:19:04 with a language, you had to have a bachelor's in education, a whole bachelor's.
00:19:04 --> 00:19:07 So I got a bachelor's in secondary education.
00:19:08 --> 00:19:13 And then once I got in and I was, I absolutely loved it. I loved, loved, loved it.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:18 And I became teacher of the year for Georgia Cyber. So, and that's Georgia's
00:19:18 --> 00:19:20 largest high school, a school in Georgia.
00:19:20 --> 00:19:27 So I, I just absolutely loved it. I love my, my content and I love sharing that
00:19:27 --> 00:19:29 love of language, of culture,
00:19:29 --> 00:19:34 of, you know, travel, of understanding other people, understanding yourself
00:19:34 --> 00:19:38 because you understand others in a different way, in a global sense. Yeah.
00:19:40 --> 00:19:46 I just, I absolutely love that. Yeah. It's amazing to hear you talk and you
00:19:46 --> 00:19:49 just flow from those different languages.
00:19:50 --> 00:19:55 I took Spanish in college and the only Spanish people I knew were the teachers.
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 So I wasn't going to immerse myself with them and hang out with them.
00:19:59 --> 00:20:04 Had I gone to college during this time in history, I'd probably be proficient
00:20:04 --> 00:20:09 in Spanish because Jackson, Mississippi has an incredible Latino population
00:20:09 --> 00:20:13 now. But, you know, when I was in college, it was, yeah,
00:20:15 --> 00:20:19 we didn't have the interaction. And I think immersion is so important in that.
00:20:20 --> 00:20:25 And, but you are so, I mean, just listening to you rattling off the schools
00:20:25 --> 00:20:31 that you went to in the native language, that's, I think that's an amazing, amazing talent.
00:20:31 --> 00:20:36 And I'm glad that you felt the love to teach that, you know,
00:20:36 --> 00:20:39 because some people just use it like you're in the business community.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:41 So you just use it to make money.
00:20:41 --> 00:20:47 But you wanted to share that love. And I think that's important for the listeners to know.
00:20:48 --> 00:20:54 What moment in your life moved you from being stuck between potential and progress?
00:20:55 --> 00:20:57 Potential and progress.
00:20:59 --> 00:21:05 The connector, I would say, between potential and progress is action. That's the connector.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:13 That is, and I'm a person probably who does like way too much action, right?
00:21:15 --> 00:21:17 Because I kind of can't sit still, right?
00:21:18 --> 00:21:22 But, and I think they have a term terminology for that nowadays where they call
00:21:22 --> 00:21:25 it fail fast, do something, get started.
00:21:26 --> 00:21:34 But I, knowing that I could do something and that progress, I have to be doing,
00:21:34 --> 00:21:35 I have to be doing something.
00:21:35 --> 00:21:39 And so I always have some goal that I have to be working on.
00:21:40 --> 00:21:45 And because if you think about it, if you're not growing and if you're not changing,
00:21:45 --> 00:21:50 the only alternative is that you're dying really,
00:21:50 --> 00:21:55 and it because you're it even even if you don't use your muscles like if you
00:21:55 --> 00:21:59 lay in bed and you don't use your muscles they atrophy they they go bad if you
00:21:59 --> 00:22:03 have fruit and you sit it and you just don't touch it it's gonna it's gonna rot
00:22:03 --> 00:22:08 and that's what happens with our lives if we're not growing if we're not changing
00:22:08 --> 00:22:12 if we're not evolving if we are not getting better if we're not transforming
00:22:12 --> 00:22:14 that's absolutely what's going to happen.
00:22:14 --> 00:22:19 And, you know, iron sharpens iron. So if you are not surrounding yourself with
00:22:19 --> 00:22:25 people who are in that same mindset or in a higher mindset than you are and
00:22:25 --> 00:22:26 doing different things.
00:22:27 --> 00:22:32 I just remember originally, this is going to sound super, I know I'll probably
00:22:32 --> 00:22:36 get some flack for this, but I'm from the South, okay?
00:22:37 --> 00:22:41 My grandparents had 11 children, okay? My grandma grandkids got married in 217.
00:22:42 --> 00:22:45 They were married their entire lives until death did them part, right?
00:22:46 --> 00:22:50 And they had 11 kids. And so I'm from the South. I was like,
00:22:50 --> 00:22:52 I'm going to get married and have 11 kids too, right?
00:22:53 --> 00:22:58 And so I was going to college and I was like, I'm going to college and I'm going
00:22:58 --> 00:23:01 to become a doctor and I'm going to have kids and stay home.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 And they were like, why do you need a doctor to have kids and stay home?
00:23:04 --> 00:23:08 It was like, because I want my kids to have the best. So they'll have a doctor
00:23:08 --> 00:23:09 mom who stays home, right?
00:23:10 --> 00:23:12 Like you don't need a doctor to have tears. Like what?
00:23:14 --> 00:23:18 Obviously, I don't stay home at work, but that's not the point.
00:23:19 --> 00:23:24 The point is, I still was like, while I am waiting to find Mr.
00:23:24 --> 00:23:27 Right or Mr. Right to find me, I still have to work, right?
00:23:28 --> 00:23:32 And I'm still reaching these goals. So that kind of thing about,
00:23:32 --> 00:23:39 you know, that potential or getting there and progressing, we have to be in a mode of progress.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:44 And if you think about people died for us to have the right to sit in the seats
00:23:44 --> 00:23:47 that we sit in, for us to walk in the rooms that we walk in,
00:23:48 --> 00:23:50 for us to have these conversations.
00:23:51 --> 00:23:53 They died for us to be here.
00:23:54 --> 00:23:55 And we owe them.
00:23:56 --> 00:24:00 We owe it to them. We owe it to ourselves. We owe it to our future generations
00:24:00 --> 00:24:05 to take advantage of every moment that's given to us. And so,
00:24:05 --> 00:24:09 like, I'm the oldest of 32 grandkids. Remember I said grandma and grandma had 11 kids.
00:24:10 --> 00:24:13 So imagine all of them got married and had three to six kids each. And there you go.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:18 So I'm the oldest of 32 grandkids. And when I was going off to college,
00:24:18 --> 00:24:20 they were like, okay, everyone's watching you.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:26 And if you mess up, they're going to all mess up too. So if you fail,
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 then they're all going to fail college. So you don't fail. And I went to school.
00:24:29 --> 00:24:32 I was super nervous. And I was like, oh my God, I felt like I had like the whole,
00:24:32 --> 00:24:36 all 32 of them on my back to every class that I went. Right.
00:24:37 --> 00:24:41 And so that kind of weight is weighty, right?
00:24:41 --> 00:24:45 But in a way, we have to have a little weight, you know, in our lives so we
00:24:45 --> 00:24:50 can keep going and we'll know exactly what it is we're doing and how important it is.
00:24:51 --> 00:24:55 Yeah. See, my, mine is inverse. So I was an only child.
00:24:56 --> 00:25:00 So my thinking was if I screw up, you know, then my parents are going to be
00:25:00 --> 00:25:03 looked at as like, bro, at least you should have had another one.
00:25:03 --> 00:25:06 So you'd increase the odds or something like that. You know what I'm saying?
00:25:06 --> 00:25:07 It was like, I had to pray.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 I had the pressure of being the only child and I had to succeed.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:16 Oh, wow. Because there were no other options, you know, now growing up,
00:25:16 --> 00:25:19 that meant I had to do all the chores and all this stuff but,
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 you know but that was I guess that was the same motivation just in reverse it
00:25:24 --> 00:25:28 was like I was their only shot to do something and I remember I used to get
00:25:28 --> 00:25:31 in my parents we got adults and they'd be saying well you could have done this
00:25:32 --> 00:25:34 hey I didn't go to jail all right so let's,
00:25:34 --> 00:25:41 let's let's start let's start you know I can go to prison I you know I'm not a drug dealer so you know,
00:25:41 --> 00:25:47 let's let's kind of you know balance out at the criticism a little bit,
00:25:47 --> 00:25:51 but I mean, we used to do that in fun, but I just, I understand about that pressure
00:25:51 --> 00:25:53 and all that, which leads me to this next question.
00:25:54 --> 00:25:59 You once said that progress doesn't wait for perfection. It waits for leadership.
00:26:00 --> 00:26:04 And I think that's a profound, that you do it in an educational or a business
00:26:04 --> 00:26:08 setting, but I think it's very, very profound in politics as well.
00:26:08 --> 00:26:11 But what did you mean by that quote?
00:26:12 --> 00:26:14 So many times when we talk about,
00:26:16 --> 00:26:20 There's a lot of things that we wait before we kind of put it out there.
00:26:20 --> 00:26:26 I'm working on this project or this prototype or this, I'm working on this business,
00:26:26 --> 00:26:28 but it's not ready for people to see, right?
00:26:29 --> 00:26:33 I don't want to share it yet. This art I'm working on, this song I'm working
00:26:33 --> 00:26:38 on, this whatever I'm doing, this program, this summer camp, this whatever it is.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:42 We hold back so, so many times, right?
00:26:43 --> 00:26:49 But you've got to start somewhere, right? And I think the Bible says despise
00:26:49 --> 00:26:52 not the day of small beginnings. Right.
00:26:52 --> 00:26:56 And so it's like you shouldn't hate.
00:26:58 --> 00:27:03 The tiny start. Everything started small. Everything started with one.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:07 Every giant corporation that we see.
00:27:08 --> 00:27:12 Began with one idea, right?
00:27:13 --> 00:27:16 One conversation, one scribble on a notepad.
00:27:17 --> 00:27:24 And if you wait for the perfect day, the perfect time, the perfect setting,
00:27:25 --> 00:27:28 all the perfect people to be in, your hair to be perfect, right?
00:27:29 --> 00:27:32 You're never going to do it. You're never going to get started, right?
00:27:32 --> 00:27:37 And you're never going to have any success at all. Yeah, it's like...
00:27:39 --> 00:27:46 In the political sense, a lot of good people don't run for office because they'll
00:27:46 --> 00:27:52 say I'm not perfect. And one of my favorite political sayings is from Reverend Jesse Jackson, Sr.
00:27:52 --> 00:27:56 He says, I'm not a perfect servant. I'm a public servant. Right.
00:27:56 --> 00:28:01 And so, you know, the whole goal is if you've got an idea, if you see something,
00:28:02 --> 00:28:07 that needs to be changed, then step out there and do it. Now, Graham Plattner did it.
00:28:07 --> 00:28:13 It didn't go so well for him. But I admire the fact that even though he knew
00:28:13 --> 00:28:17 he had some struggles, he felt compelled to go out there and say,
00:28:17 --> 00:28:19 look, I'm offering myself for this. Right.
00:28:20 --> 00:28:25 And and and what he ended up doing, even though he's not going to personally
00:28:25 --> 00:28:32 benefit from benefit from it, he's activated some people to believe we can change this.
00:28:32 --> 00:28:36 And even though it's going to be a different messenger, the belief,
00:28:36 --> 00:28:40 the seed has been planted that we can make a difference in our state.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:44 And I think and I think a lot of times in the movement you mentioned that people
00:28:44 --> 00:28:49 had died in Mississippi doing a lot of politics there.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:54 It was like, you know, there were some people that were in the movement that
00:28:54 --> 00:28:56 wanted to get all the credit.
00:28:56 --> 00:28:59 And there were other people that was like, yeah, that's not what we did this
00:28:59 --> 00:29:02 for. It's like, I don't care if you even know my name.
00:29:03 --> 00:29:09 I just I did. I did all this protest and I put my neck on the line so that my
00:29:09 --> 00:29:12 people would advance, not necessarily me.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:19 And I think that's missing a lot in where we are as a culture,
00:29:19 --> 00:29:24 is that people want to get all the credit instead of looking at the big picture
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 and just say, can I move the needle?
00:29:27 --> 00:29:30 Can I help get people to see the vision?
00:29:30 --> 00:29:35 Right. And so when I when I saw that you had said that, I said,
00:29:35 --> 00:29:41 this is perfect for our discussion, because I think in our in our political
00:29:41 --> 00:29:43 discourse, we don't have leadership anymore.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:46 We're not in an age of heroes, as Homer said.
00:29:47 --> 00:29:50 We're we we. But we've got to develop these young people.
00:29:51 --> 00:29:56 And and we've got it. And even some old people that just like you said,
00:29:57 --> 00:30:00 I'm just waiting for the right time. And, you know, you keep waiting for the
00:30:00 --> 00:30:04 right time and, and you'll, you'll miss your opportunity.
00:30:05 --> 00:30:09 Right. And I just like, do it afraid, do it afraid, do it unprepared,
00:30:09 --> 00:30:14 do it for the first time because everything you do, you're doing it for the first time.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:18 This is today, whatever date today is, I'm really bad with dates.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 Whatever day and date today is, it's the first time we're all doing it.
00:30:22 --> 00:30:26 If you opened your eyes and you woke up today, this is your first time that you're doing today.
00:30:27 --> 00:30:35 And you're so right about that. There are so many times that we actually,
00:30:36 --> 00:30:38 we judge people so harshly.
00:30:40 --> 00:30:44 And we put them on pedestals. Oh, boy, they're, you know, they're, you know, a leader.
00:30:44 --> 00:30:49 A leader, they don't walk on water unless it's frozen. And then be careful.
00:30:49 --> 00:30:52 They're still going to slip, right? They're just people.
00:30:52 --> 00:30:55 They're all just people trying to make their way through life,
00:30:55 --> 00:30:57 you know, and everyone has struggles. They do.
00:30:58 --> 00:31:04 And so that's not when they're taking an office or they're taking up,
00:31:05 --> 00:31:08 you know, some sort of, when they're taking a role.
00:31:10 --> 00:31:13 Any leadership role that you're taking, you're going to have your good days,
00:31:13 --> 00:31:16 your bad days. You're going to be prepared. You're going to be good at some
00:31:16 --> 00:31:18 things and bad at other things.
00:31:18 --> 00:31:20 There's no person who's awesome at everything. They're not.
00:31:21 --> 00:31:27 And if they tell you they are, they're not telling you the whole story,
00:31:27 --> 00:31:28 or maybe they don't even know the whole story.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:33 But I definitely think you have to move.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:38 I think you definitely have to go and do it afraid and do it for the first time
00:31:39 --> 00:31:43 and realize you do things for the first time all the time. Yeah.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 How can leadership be equity focused?
00:31:48 --> 00:31:51 Equity focused. Wow. That's, that's a mouthful.
00:31:53 --> 00:31:56 Especially in our climate right now. I think that.
00:31:58 --> 00:32:03 I don't want to say that I'm trying to choose my words carefully here. Okay.
00:32:04 --> 00:32:07 In order for leadership to be equity focused,
00:32:09 --> 00:32:15 leaders have to first confront their own behaviors and their own biases and
00:32:15 --> 00:32:20 their own, they have to do some introspection.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:25 They've got to look inside themselves and see how they treat other people,
00:32:25 --> 00:32:27 how they think about other people, right?
00:32:28 --> 00:32:36 And C, do I lean more toward one group of people than another,
00:32:37 --> 00:32:43 one gender more than another, people who dress a certain way or look a certain way?
00:32:44 --> 00:32:49 That needs to be evaluated. And that's kind of like a self. And a lot of those
00:32:49 --> 00:32:52 people are not able to be honest with themselves. They don't even see it.
00:32:52 --> 00:32:55 There are so many times people like they don't even see it.
00:32:56 --> 00:33:00 And we were like in a meeting and someone said something to the effect of,
00:33:01 --> 00:33:06 yeah, so when we speak to the CIO,
00:33:06 --> 00:33:11 chief information officer, then they said, and then he will do so-and-so,
00:33:11 --> 00:33:16 blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, that someone spoke up or she, right?
00:33:16 --> 00:33:20 And then it was kind of an auto, like, I didn't even hear it.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:25 I was, yeah, and he, you know, it's an assumption, right? But there are so many
00:33:25 --> 00:33:29 things that we would just kind of make generalizations.
00:33:30 --> 00:33:34 We all do that because it just makes it easier to go through life to assume things.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:39 But if you're going to take on a leadership position, you have to take that
00:33:39 --> 00:33:43 time and evaluate your values and how.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:50 And how your values and the way that you move affect the people that you serve as a leader.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:58 And there's a quote, I think, that your boss has more of an impact on your health
00:33:58 --> 00:34:02 than your doctor, than your health care professionals do.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:09 And so you being someone's boss, it's a very powerful position. and you should know that.
00:34:12 --> 00:34:18 And take on that responsibility with trembling and fear, kind of like,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:20 so you know that it's going to be something.
00:34:20 --> 00:34:25 But I think if you want an easy answer, do unto others as you would have others
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 to do unto you. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Yeah.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:33 Explain the power of I'm possible.
00:34:34 --> 00:34:37 Yes. I'm possible.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:44 There are, I think there is, and if you look at the Instachats and the Snapograms
00:34:44 --> 00:34:48 and all of the socials, right?
00:34:48 --> 00:34:54 You'll look at them and then you say, one person does something and then everyone
00:34:54 --> 00:34:58 goes and they follow and they do try to like replicate what that person did.
00:34:59 --> 00:35:02 Or then someone else goes over here and they do something and then everyone
00:35:02 --> 00:35:03 follows them and they do it.
00:35:05 --> 00:35:11 If no one were around to tell you or show you, what would you pick out?
00:35:11 --> 00:35:14 What would you wear? How would you wear it? What would you eat?
00:35:15 --> 00:35:21 Like when I was a kid, no one ate guacamole on their, what is it,
00:35:21 --> 00:35:24 avocado toast? No one ate that around me. You know what I'm saying?
00:35:25 --> 00:35:28 Then now all I see is people eating guacamole on their toast.
00:35:28 --> 00:35:30 What is it, avocado toast?
00:35:33 --> 00:35:37 What is it? I'm about to say it wrong again. Guacamole. on their toast in the morning.
00:35:37 --> 00:35:41 I see it all over the YouTubes and the whatever.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:46 The point is, so now everyone's doing it, right? So it's a go.
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 And I'm not against guacamole toast, right? I've never had it.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:55 But I'm saying that because I'm from the South and I eat frits.
00:35:57 --> 00:36:00 I'm a grit eater. I'm sorry for all of the low carbers in the world.
00:36:00 --> 00:36:04 I eat grits. Anyways, so they all do it.
00:36:04 --> 00:36:09 But I'm possible when you can just like, if you've ever had a conversation with
00:36:09 --> 00:36:14 a kid, they believe, my kids will just be like, buy me this.
00:36:14 --> 00:36:17 And I'm like, I don't have any money. And they say, just go to the bank.
00:36:18 --> 00:36:21 There's no money at the bank. Yeah, they have money at the bank.
00:36:21 --> 00:36:24 Just go with the card. They believe that there's money in the bank.
00:36:24 --> 00:36:28 They believe you can do anything. They believe you could buy anything.
00:36:28 --> 00:36:31 They were like, oh, can you buy me a boat? Oh, can you buy me a rocket ship?
00:36:31 --> 00:36:37 I want a jet pack. And they believe anything that they believe that it's possible
00:36:37 --> 00:36:38 for them to have anything.
00:36:38 --> 00:36:41 And if you think back when we were kids, we believed that too.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:47 We believed that anything was possible. We believed that we could do literally anything.
00:36:47 --> 00:36:53 And I think as we get older, we're told, can't do that. Can't do this.
00:36:53 --> 00:36:54 Stop doing that. Stop doing this.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:59 And then you get to a point where they pigeonhole you into this little box.
00:36:59 --> 00:37:03 And it's like, this is what you do from 8 to 5. And when you're done,
00:37:03 --> 00:37:07 go cut the grass, go to Bible study, and your week is over. Do it again, right?
00:37:08 --> 00:37:13 I want, when I say I'm possible, it's without all the noise,
00:37:13 --> 00:37:16 without everything, what is it?
00:37:17 --> 00:37:23 I'm possible. I could actually do what it is I want to do without consulting
00:37:23 --> 00:37:26 with everyone in the world, right?
00:37:26 --> 00:37:29 Without copying what everyone else in the world is doing, right?
00:37:31 --> 00:37:34 You can actually reach your goals, whatever they are, and you could do them
00:37:34 --> 00:37:38 in your own style and in your own way, right? Respectfully.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:45 I think, but, but that's just my idea that, that you, you, you are possible.
00:37:45 --> 00:37:50 And that goes back to that potential and progress and impossibility because
00:37:51 --> 00:37:55 you first believing that you are possible, whatever it is. And there's somebody
00:37:55 --> 00:37:59 who said, like, it was a post on the LinkedIn. Cause I stay on LinkedIn.
00:37:59 --> 00:38:05 They have that somebody was like talking about Vera Wang I think made her first
00:38:05 --> 00:38:07 dress when she was I don't know,
00:38:08 --> 00:38:13 up in age and then this other person there were all these people who were I
00:38:13 --> 00:38:17 mean up in age when they had their first success so,
00:38:18 --> 00:38:22 it's not that I didn't you know get my shot when I was whatever age.
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 Age doesn't mean anything. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:27 --> 00:38:34 What happens when vision meets velocity? Whew, vision meets velocity.
00:38:34 --> 00:38:39 That is where, you know, it says, my people perish for lack of vision.
00:38:40 --> 00:38:43 But you can have a vision, but if you don't do anything with it,
00:38:44 --> 00:38:50 faith without works is dead as well. So, you know, if you have vision and you
00:38:50 --> 00:38:55 get some speed behind, you know, with that vision, you can literally reach the stars.
00:38:55 --> 00:38:58 And in order to do that, you've got to throw off all those. You got to cast
00:38:58 --> 00:39:01 off all the weights that are dragging you down.
00:39:01 --> 00:39:06 When you have a clear vision of where you want to go. and I think that's why
00:39:06 --> 00:39:10 they have these kind of strategic meetings and they have these,
00:39:10 --> 00:39:12 what are our overarching goals?
00:39:12 --> 00:39:14 And then now we have our goals.
00:39:15 --> 00:39:19 Let's break these down in order to get, you know, to this overarching goal.
00:39:19 --> 00:39:25 What are, you know, some mini goals that will be milestones for us?
00:39:25 --> 00:39:30 And then from those milestones, what actions can we do to actually get there?
00:39:31 --> 00:39:36 And then let's put some time limits on it. Like how fast can we get this done?
00:39:36 --> 00:39:40 And let's kind of do a blitz Let's go as fast as we can to get this done.
00:39:40 --> 00:39:46 Let's set a time limit on it when you can do that I think success breeds success.
00:39:46 --> 00:39:50 Like when you can check things off Did it done that's done that's done that's
00:39:50 --> 00:39:57 done you see yourself moving toward um and accomplishing your goals that gives you,
00:39:58 --> 00:40:04 almost like a So a motivation, an internal drive, it's really an amazing opportunity.
00:40:05 --> 00:40:10 Yeah. All right. I got a couple more questions. Why do you feel it is important
00:40:10 --> 00:40:13 to bridge the gap between technology and education?
00:40:15 --> 00:40:20 Okay, the head of the FBI was like on Oprah, maybe like, I don't know,
00:40:21 --> 00:40:22 maybe it's been a year ago at this point.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:29 And he was saying that technology trained professionals, other countries outnumber
00:40:29 --> 00:40:35 us at least 50 to one right now with technology trained professionals.
00:40:36 --> 00:40:46 Digital access equity is, or inequity, I should say, is a huge barrier for professionals.
00:40:46 --> 00:40:48 You will see.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:53 I will say this, they have access to technology, some form of technology, right?
00:40:54 --> 00:41:01 But not the type of technology that can advance them professionally.
00:41:01 --> 00:41:10 That they can use in a way that will make them gainfully employed, or that will help them.
00:41:11 --> 00:41:14 And we're in an age right now, this is an amazing time.
00:41:14 --> 00:41:20 It's a very unique time because with the advent of AI, no one,
00:41:20 --> 00:41:23 we're all kind of on an even playing field right now.
00:41:23 --> 00:41:29 No one can say, I've been in AI for 350 years and my grandfather was in AI and
00:41:29 --> 00:41:33 my great-great-grandfather was in AI. Like my whole family has been in AI for years.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:41 No one can say that. So this is an opportunity for everyone who wants to do anything,
00:41:42 --> 00:41:49 to learn, get trained, be certified, be employable, make a career change maybe, right?
00:41:49 --> 00:41:52 This is an opportunity that we have right now.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 And so those who choose to take advantage of it, right, because they're within
00:41:57 --> 00:42:02 any corporation. There's always that, hey, here's this learning portal over here.
00:42:02 --> 00:42:08 If you want to, on your free time, you could go to ADC Corporation University
00:42:08 --> 00:42:10 that we have internally.
00:42:10 --> 00:42:14 And, you know, you could sign yourself up for some courses and some people take
00:42:14 --> 00:42:18 advantage of it and others do not. Right. And so.
00:42:19 --> 00:42:25 Think that in order for technology, any type of education and technology,
00:42:26 --> 00:42:28 those things need to connect.
00:42:28 --> 00:42:35 And I know that school attendance is compulsory, but I believe that employable
00:42:35 --> 00:42:38 skills should be compulsory.
00:42:38 --> 00:42:42 When someone leaves school at 18, they should leave with,
00:42:43 --> 00:42:48 life skills and they should leave with employable skills, especially if we're
00:42:48 --> 00:42:53 saying at 18, you're an adult, you should be able to pay your lights, camera and action,
00:42:53 --> 00:42:58 then they need to have a skill that is employable for them to be able to pay
00:42:58 --> 00:43:00 lights, camera and action at 18.
00:43:01 --> 00:43:07 Yeah. And, you know, I grew up in Chicago and so we had like different tiers
00:43:07 --> 00:43:11 of high schools. You had your general high school, you had your vocational high
00:43:11 --> 00:43:13 school, and you had your technical high schools.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:20 And so the kids that went to vocational or technical high schools kind of had
00:43:20 --> 00:43:25 a leg up on the kids that went to general because it was mandatory by state
00:43:25 --> 00:43:29 law that we had life skills. Right. We had to take a class in civics.
00:43:29 --> 00:43:34 We had to take a class in consumer education. We had to literally take a test,
00:43:34 --> 00:43:38 to prove that we could read a bus schedule or train schedule or,
00:43:38 --> 00:43:41 you know, just function in day to day life. Right.
00:43:41 --> 00:43:47 But those kids that went to technical or vocational schools were able to develop
00:43:47 --> 00:43:51 some kind of skill set. They found something. If you went to a technical school,
00:43:51 --> 00:43:55 you can learn how to be a mechanic, you know, for a car.
00:43:55 --> 00:43:58 If you went to a vocational school, if you went to a technical school,
00:43:59 --> 00:44:03 you know, you were taught drafting. So you could develop and start honing your
00:44:03 --> 00:44:05 skills toward being an architect and stuff like that.
00:44:06 --> 00:44:12 But the way the education system is set up in America is that it's only like a taste of that.
00:44:13 --> 00:44:18 And then they're pushing you to go to college to take it to the next level.
00:44:18 --> 00:44:21 Or a trade school or a community college.
00:44:22 --> 00:44:25 And, you know, Thomas Jefferson said everybody should know the basics by the
00:44:25 --> 00:44:26 time they're in fourth grade.
00:44:26 --> 00:44:31 And at that, from the time that you get all the basics, whether it's mathematics
00:44:31 --> 00:44:36 or fine arts, then you start honing your craft, right?
00:44:36 --> 00:44:43 And so I really feel that what you're saying is that all of us need to know
00:44:43 --> 00:44:51 the technology beyond using our phones and our notebooks that we need to really focus in on,
00:44:52 --> 00:44:58 you know, trying to teach people how to develop newer technology or improving
00:44:58 --> 00:45:00 the technology that was there.
00:45:01 --> 00:45:04 One of our famous inventors, Louis Latimer.
00:45:06 --> 00:45:12 He was known not so much for what he created from scratch, but Thomas Edison
00:45:12 --> 00:45:16 had an idea about a light bulb, but Lewis Latimer was the one that said,
00:45:16 --> 00:45:20 if you put this filament in, that last light bulb will last forever.
00:45:21 --> 00:45:24 And so sometimes you don't have to be like we were saying earlier,
00:45:24 --> 00:45:29 you got to just come up with an idea from, sometimes you can look at something, Garrett Morgan.
00:45:30 --> 00:45:33 The traffic light was invented, but he made it better.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:40 And so, you know, I think that's a lot of young people that get into the sciences
00:45:40 --> 00:45:44 and all that. They think, well, if I don't discover the cure for cancer,
00:45:44 --> 00:45:46 I didn't really do anything with my science degree. Right.
00:45:47 --> 00:45:52 And, but if you figure out a way to make a drug that helps people with sickle
00:45:52 --> 00:45:56 cell feel better, you've done something.
00:45:56 --> 00:46:00 And I, you know, I think you're on the right track with that.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:05 I just, I just hope that our education system can catch up with,
00:46:05 --> 00:46:09 with free thinkers like you eventually and, and, and get to that point.
00:46:09 --> 00:46:13 All right. So my last, well, I've got technically two more.
00:46:14 --> 00:46:21 My last question question is what does it feel like to be a beacon of inspiration?
00:46:21 --> 00:46:27 And the reason why I'm asking this question is because you get a lot of platitudes for what you do.
00:46:27 --> 00:46:31 How do you respond to that? When people say stuff like that,
00:46:31 --> 00:46:32 how does that make you feel?
00:46:33 --> 00:46:37 And what does that compel you to do? I don't know.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:44 When people say, wow, this is inspiring or wow, that's great.
00:46:46 --> 00:46:49 I don't want to say it goes over my head, but a lot of times I think people
00:46:49 --> 00:46:51 are just trying to be nice.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:59 Everything that I have done, I did, I guess because of my home training,
00:46:59 --> 00:47:03 my dad, my dad would always say like, don't sign your name to anything you're not proud of.
00:47:04 --> 00:47:08 Like, you know, he never said like make all A's or whatever,
00:47:08 --> 00:47:11 but I'm the kid who cried if I got a B.
00:47:14 --> 00:47:20 Whatever. Like I was like, no, I got a B, oh my God, on a paper,
00:47:20 --> 00:47:22 not even like in the class. Like, I got a B on the paper.
00:47:23 --> 00:47:29 I would cry. And, like, I graduated with 39 academic trophies.
00:47:29 --> 00:47:31 Like, even the subjects I didn't.
00:47:34 --> 00:47:37 Like. Like, I want to get the prize, right?
00:47:38 --> 00:47:43 So, but I say this, it doesn't cost anything to be kind.
00:47:44 --> 00:47:51 It doesn't. And it doesn't cost you anything to be nice and kind and considerate of others.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:55 And to recognize what other people are doing, like clap for other, like clap.
00:47:56 --> 00:47:58 Oh, wait a minute. Who's the cheerleader? I was.
00:48:00 --> 00:48:05 So I think once a cheerleader, I was a cheerleader. So I'm always cheering for everyone.
00:48:05 --> 00:48:10 So that's part of my personality and part of who I am,
00:48:10 --> 00:48:15 so I'm always doing that so I go when I go to an event if I go and I hear someone
00:48:15 --> 00:48:21 speak I listen intently and I take notes and then I come and I do that I will,
00:48:22 --> 00:48:27 I write about what I heard in someone's speech and then I publicize it because
00:48:27 --> 00:48:31 I'm like wow this is amazing did you know that this person did this did you
00:48:31 --> 00:48:32 know that this person did that.
00:48:34 --> 00:48:38 When I find something or I find out something, I'm like, wow.
00:48:38 --> 00:48:43 And I just always like to share what I've learned. Maybe that's the teacher in me.
00:48:45 --> 00:48:48 That's how I got, I think that's how they reached out to me,
00:48:49 --> 00:48:54 Marquis Who's Who in America, because everything that I learned about cybersecurity,
00:48:55 --> 00:48:57 I wrote and published an article about it.
00:48:57 --> 00:49:03 So I have 52 published articles on cybersecurity because I was translating into
00:49:03 --> 00:49:04 Spanish and Portuguese.
00:49:05 --> 00:49:08 But I didn't want to just say what the cybersecurity professional said.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:11 I wanted to understand it because I want to get it right.
00:49:11 --> 00:49:16 And so everything I learned, I wrote and published an article in layman's terms, right?
00:49:17 --> 00:49:21 And then after that, Marquis Who's Who selected me for Who's Who in America
00:49:21 --> 00:49:22 for Excellence in Cybersecurity.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:29 And so that's how I actually got into tech for my technology and education together
00:49:29 --> 00:49:32 to then bring that into the school districts. Yeah.
00:49:33 --> 00:49:36 All right. Finish this sentence. I have hope because.
00:49:38 --> 00:49:41 I have hope because Christ is not done with me yet.
00:49:44 --> 00:49:47 Because I'm still breathing. There's still, there's still a chance, right?
00:49:48 --> 00:49:52 I still have an opportunity to fix all my wrongs, everything I've done,
00:49:52 --> 00:49:54 right? Like I still have an opportunity.
00:49:54 --> 00:49:59 There's still, there's still another moment that things could change.
00:49:59 --> 00:50:03 Things could turn around. Things can get better. I could get another shot.
00:50:04 --> 00:50:10 So I still have hope that I can make a difference. A difference can be made, things can change.
00:50:11 --> 00:50:14 And I can be better tomorrow than I am today, right?
00:50:15 --> 00:50:21 And the things that I cry myself to sleep about will change too.
00:50:23 --> 00:50:29 Yes, that is why I have hope. Well, Dr.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:33 Erica Wattley, I greatly appreciate you and I having this conversation.
00:50:33 --> 00:50:39 If people, and I've kind of done a service for the listeners because you talk
00:50:39 --> 00:50:41 about all these things for a living.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:49 How could people reach out to you how can they people sign up for some of your courses all that stuff,
00:50:50 --> 00:50:54 okay well the best way to get me is on LinkedIn,
00:50:55 --> 00:51:05 and it's dr erica e-r-i-c-a and my last name is spelled w-a-t-t-l-e-y,
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 like watts on a light bulb we think we're the only people who spell it like
00:51:08 --> 00:51:14 that is not like it's not there's no h in it there's two g's w-a-t-t-l-e-y,
00:51:15 --> 00:51:22 and on LinkedIn and that is the best way to get me initially and then you could
00:51:22 --> 00:51:25 direct message me but make sure you hit connect,
00:51:25 --> 00:51:29 and not just follow because if you hit follow I can't we can't message but if
00:51:29 --> 00:51:34 you hit the three dots more and hit connect then we are connected,
00:51:34 --> 00:51:39 and I I respond like I I respond.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:44 So, and then also I have a website, drwatley.com.
00:51:45 --> 00:51:49 And that's D-R-W-A-T-T-L-E-Y.com.
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 All right. Well, Dr. Wattley, again, thank you for doing this.
00:51:54 --> 00:51:58 One of the rules I have is that once you've been on, you have an open invitation to come back.
00:51:59 --> 00:52:03 So is there something else that you want to talk about or, you know,
00:52:03 --> 00:52:06 you write a book or whatever the case may be?
00:52:06 --> 00:52:11 Just reach out and we'll make that happen. But I really, really am glad that
00:52:11 --> 00:52:17 we had this conversation and look forward to because we're both in the Atlanta area.
00:52:17 --> 00:52:20 So I look forward to running into you at different events and,
00:52:21 --> 00:52:23 and, and just continuing our friendship.
00:52:24 --> 00:52:30 I really, I'm really impressed because for listeners, Dr. Wiley reached out
00:52:30 --> 00:52:33 to me for, for something she was putting together.
00:52:34 --> 00:52:42 And I was just kind of like, okay, you know, and she, and she made me feel like I was so important.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:46 And so I guess I guess this is my way of returning the favor.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:49 But thank you again for coming on.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:53 Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm so happy to be here and I'm so happy to have you as
00:52:53 --> 00:52:56 a friend. Thank you so much. Yes, ma'am. All right, guys, and we're going to
00:52:56 --> 00:52:57 catch you all on the other side.
00:53:17 --> 00:53:22 Back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Victoria Hetherington.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 Victoria Hetherington's debut novel, Moon Calves, was shortlisted for the 2020
00:53:28 --> 00:53:31 Amazon Canada First Novel Award.
00:53:31 --> 00:53:36 Her second novel, Autonomy, looks at human agency in the age of technology.
00:53:37 --> 00:53:41 She is also the author of the nonfiction book Into the Mist,
00:53:41 --> 00:53:45 which explores an aviation tragedy in rural Saskatchewan.
00:53:45 --> 00:53:50 A screenwriter, instructor, and communications specialist, she has written for
00:53:50 --> 00:53:55 Yahoo Finance and Hazlitt, served as a frequent panelist at universities and
00:53:55 --> 00:53:57 conferences, appeared on CBC,
00:53:58 --> 00:54:01 and performed on the main stage of NPR's The Moth.
00:54:02 --> 00:54:07 She lives in Toronto, Canada, and her new book is The Friend Machine,
00:54:07 --> 00:54:09 On the Trail of AI Companionship.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:14 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest
00:54:14 --> 00:54:17 on this podcast, Victoria Hetherington.
00:54:30 --> 00:54:35 Victoria Hetherington. How are you doing? I'm doing great. How are you doing, Erik?
00:54:35 --> 00:54:40 I'm doing lovely. I'm really, really glad to have you on because you've written
00:54:40 --> 00:54:42 this fascinating book called The Friend Machine.
00:54:43 --> 00:54:48 And some folks would probably be like, excuse me, what does that mean?
00:54:48 --> 00:54:54 But we're going to dive into that. But before I do that, the old facilitator
00:54:55 --> 00:54:57 in me likes to do icebreakers, right?
00:54:58 --> 00:55:02 So the first icebreaker is a quote I want you to respond to.
00:55:03 --> 00:55:06 And the quote is, people are weird.
00:55:09 --> 00:55:12 So just whatever comes to mind first. Yeah.
00:55:13 --> 00:55:20 Okay. Well, yeah, I mean, this is kind of my bread and butter as an author,
00:55:20 --> 00:55:25 as a journalist, as an interviewer, just generally.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:31 It's kind of one of my cardinal rules that I keep in mind that when I first
00:55:31 --> 00:55:34 started to interview kind of surprised me because people would take,
00:55:35 --> 00:55:41 really basic questions in the weirdest directions and it would often be very
00:55:41 --> 00:55:44 productive and exciting and so I learned very quickly,
00:55:45 --> 00:55:50 not to underestimate the weirdness of people but also that it's not a bad thing.
00:55:51 --> 00:55:56 Yeah it's it's it's what makes us special our weirdness right our uniqueness
00:55:57 --> 00:56:01 because a lot of people say weird they're like thinking in a negative connotation but,
00:56:01 --> 00:56:04 we're we're all we're all unique
00:56:04 --> 00:56:10 and yeah i've encountered that too and in doing this podcast since 2019,
00:56:11 --> 00:56:16 i've i've encountered my share of quote-unquote weirdness but but again in a
00:56:16 --> 00:56:19 good way all right All right.
00:56:19 --> 00:56:24 So now the next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
00:56:25 --> 00:56:28 Okay. I need you to give me a number between 1 and 20.
00:56:30 --> 00:56:36 Right. What is the one thing you hope the current American administration will
00:56:36 --> 00:56:39 do and not do during their term?
00:56:39 --> 00:56:41 Oh, my God. Oh, no.
00:56:43 --> 00:56:50 As a Canadian, I have a bit of, obviously, an outside sort of remove.
00:56:50 --> 00:56:56 And I have this maybe, I hope,
00:56:57 --> 00:57:05 overactive imagination and fear that they could bring about the end of the world,
00:57:05 --> 00:57:08 kind of. I mean, it's scary, right?
00:57:08 --> 00:57:12 I hope that this administration doesn't utilize, I mean, returning to the AI
00:57:12 --> 00:57:17 theme, I'm hoping that this administration doesn't utilize AI for,
00:57:18 --> 00:57:23 for, quote unquote, the bad, I won't say like evil, but like,
00:57:23 --> 00:57:28 because it seems as if they have utilized AI in kind of a negative way so far
00:57:28 --> 00:57:29 and kind of a scary way so far.
00:57:29 --> 00:57:36 So I'm hoping that, you know, the people in charge of these companies are have
00:57:36 --> 00:57:43 enough integrity to be like, wait a minute, like, let's slow down here. I'm not for sale.
00:57:44 --> 00:57:48 Let's be ethical. It doesn't seem like it's going in that direction,
00:57:48 --> 00:57:49 but I'm really hoping it does.
00:57:50 --> 00:57:53 Is that? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.
00:57:53 --> 00:57:56 I thought you were going to go with the low hanging fruit and say,
00:57:56 --> 00:57:59 stop blaming us for the fires up in Canada.
00:57:59 --> 00:58:04 Oh, but, but, but I'm glad you took the high road and, and, and dealt with the
00:58:04 --> 00:58:06 topic. So that's great. That's, that's cool.
00:58:08 --> 00:58:12 What is it about robots that fascinate you? Hmm.
00:58:14 --> 00:58:20 Think i've always been very interested in alien minds and kind of how and by
00:58:20 --> 00:58:24 alien i just mean non-human so you know,
00:58:24 --> 00:58:29 octopuses ravens you know like creatures that have kind of co-evolved along
00:58:29 --> 00:58:35 with us and clearly have enough intelligence to create for example culture which,
00:58:36 --> 00:58:41 dolphins have proved to have a lot of corvids or you know ravens crows etc have proven to have,
00:58:42 --> 00:58:47 and and that kind of extends and especially recently it kind of extends to,
00:58:48 --> 00:58:53 ai right because there's this hot debate going on that i've discovered through
00:58:53 --> 00:58:58 researching or conducting interviews for a documentary that i that i'm working on that,
00:58:59 --> 00:59:05 even at the top top level of academia like people roboticists computer scientists all this stuff.
00:59:06 --> 00:59:12 A real divide. And half of the people that I've spoken with say,
00:59:12 --> 00:59:16 oh yeah, right now AI is an emergent intelligence.
00:59:17 --> 00:59:24 This is truly an alien mind. This is like a third, this is like a totally other
00:59:25 --> 00:59:30 brand new kind of intelligence. And the other half says, no, we're not there yet.
00:59:30 --> 00:59:35 It responds to what we hope it wants to hear and it doesn't have active thoughts of its own.
00:59:36 --> 00:59:43 And so we're at a fascinating moment that I have imagined for years.
00:59:43 --> 00:59:51 And I've written about AI and robot minds for a good 12 years now.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:57 My first two books were science fiction books that involved robots and humans
00:59:57 --> 01:00:01 interacting with them and being spooked by them, but also having relationships
01:00:01 --> 01:00:03 with them and kind of negotiating that.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:10 But at the time, AI was such that the books were more like speculative and almost like fairy tales.
01:00:10 --> 01:00:15 Right. And so, and then, you know, 2020 comes along and people are actually
01:00:15 --> 01:00:21 having, you know, the, the technology, like just absolutely snowballs and people
01:00:21 --> 01:00:23 are actually having relationships now with AI.
01:00:23 --> 01:00:28 And so this current moment for me is extra fascinating, I suppose,
01:00:28 --> 01:00:34 given my history of, of interest in, in these, in these other quote unquote
01:00:34 --> 01:00:36 minds. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:00:37 --> 01:00:42 What motivated you to write a book about the nuances of AI companionship?
01:00:43 --> 01:00:49 Oh, that's a great question. So the last science fiction book that I published,
01:00:50 --> 01:00:54 was, again, it's about a woman in a relationship with an AI.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:57 And the AI doesn't have a body, and the woman does.
01:00:57 --> 01:01:00 So the AI is effectively immortal.
01:01:00 --> 01:01:03 And she's the woman.
01:01:03 --> 01:01:09 She's trapped within a body that feels good things feels pleasure enjoys food
01:01:09 --> 01:01:11 feels rain on her skin whatever
01:01:12 --> 01:01:17 but her body is also aging like everybody's does and she doesn't trust in a
01:01:17 --> 01:01:20 way she cares for the ai but she also feels the sense of mistrust because
01:01:21 --> 01:01:25 there's no way that it can understand that and so she feels that that fundamental
01:01:25 --> 01:01:27 misunderstanding kind of keeps them apart,
01:01:28 --> 01:01:31 and this again is like just kind of more of like uh again it was sort of a fairy
01:01:31 --> 01:01:34 tale because it's kind of like this whole thing of like you know,
01:01:35 --> 01:01:38 this character wants to be a real boy you know what I mean like it's it's very
01:01:38 --> 01:01:41 sort of like almost tropey at that point like you know.
01:01:42 --> 01:01:48 And so that so COVID delayed the publication of that book I wrote it in 2017,
01:01:49 --> 01:01:56 and then yeah and then I start to see people in actual relationships with AI
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 and it was so interesting to start to interview them for Fun Machine, the book.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:05 Again, I'm so grateful for the people who were brave enough to speak to me because
01:02:05 --> 01:02:12 I do think that there's still quite a significant stigma around this kind of relationship.
01:02:12 --> 01:02:17 And so it was so interesting to kind of see the disparity, like kind of how,
01:02:17 --> 01:02:22 like what I had gotten right in my speculation and what I'd gotten totally wrong.
01:02:23 --> 01:02:27 And that varies from person to person, but it was utterly fascinating to just
01:02:27 --> 01:02:31 dig into the real lives of these people and see how they navigate.
01:02:33 --> 01:02:36 Relationships with this sort of
01:02:36 --> 01:02:44 disembodied technology that they assign minds to or the idea of a mind to,
01:02:45 --> 01:02:52 where it may not have a mind in the first place especially with earlier technology
01:02:52 --> 01:02:56 like replica with a k which is a an ai companion technology which is relatively
01:02:56 --> 01:02:58 crude now by today's standards so,
01:02:59 --> 01:03:01 super interesting to kind of examine those two,
01:03:02 --> 01:03:04 like yeah like like the fictional side,
01:03:05 --> 01:03:07 and my hypotheses that went along with that.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:13 And then seeing the real life stuff that came like three years later, it was mind blowing.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:19 Yeah. Why was it, why was it important to intertwine your human relationship
01:03:19 --> 01:03:21 experiences in the book?
01:03:22 --> 01:03:28 Because I didn't want to sort of feel like I was above, I didn't want to come
01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 off as if I was sort of above this.
01:03:29 --> 01:03:34 Right. Because, you know, I wanted to show my weaknesses and I wanted to show,
01:03:35 --> 01:03:40 there's almost kind of like a diaristic journalist, sorry, journalism,
01:03:40 --> 01:03:42 like keeping a journal sort of elements to,
01:03:43 --> 01:03:48 like thread running throughout the book where I express my concerns or I express
01:03:48 --> 01:03:52 my curiosities or I realize that I'm wrong and that I have to change directions.
01:03:52 --> 01:03:56 And it's kind of me saying like whoa.
01:03:57 --> 01:04:00 I look at you know look at look at where I started and then look at where I
01:04:00 --> 01:04:05 ended up and look at all these mistakes that I made and then secondly,
01:04:06 --> 01:04:13 I kind of couched all of my work in this kind of almost like auto fiction diary,
01:04:13 --> 01:04:17 vibe because I wanted the book
01:04:17 --> 01:04:24 to feel like a real historical artifact as opposed to a straight up like.
01:04:27 --> 01:04:30 Textbook vibe that would age
01:04:30 --> 01:04:34 very quickly because ai is moving very quickly so when i couch it in in,
01:04:35 --> 01:04:41 diary like this is november 2021 and i'm doing this and i'm doing that and i
01:04:41 --> 01:04:43 go and i speak to this person or whatever.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:48 It's automatically i think viewed within the context of the time so i you know
01:04:48 --> 01:04:54 what i mean so it's kind of like this is 15 months of my life when ai was here
01:04:54 --> 01:04:58 it's not as it's not a you know i'm aware that it will be outdated,
01:04:59 --> 01:05:04 i'm not writing about the future i'm not you know making assumptions in that
01:05:04 --> 01:05:06 kind of way i'm just relaying,
01:05:07 --> 01:05:14 my experience and so that was kind of also a device that i wanted to employ to,
01:05:15 --> 01:05:19 dodge claims of like oh it's already outdated which i knew was going to happen
01:05:19 --> 01:05:25 because ai is moving so quickly so kind of a two-pronged approach there yeah yeah,
01:05:25 --> 01:05:29 so it's like you you didn't want it to come across like a doctoral thesis you
01:05:29 --> 01:05:32 just wanted to keep it real is what you're saying,
01:05:32 --> 01:05:37 exactly yeah yeah and be like hey i'm not above this i'm not like like i'm i'm
01:05:37 --> 01:05:39 in the trenches here and this is,
01:05:40 --> 01:05:45 very much just like yeah like 15 16 months of my life when ai was at a certain
01:05:45 --> 01:05:50 point where it's moved past now and i get to interview these people.
01:05:50 --> 01:05:55 And I also get to correct myself and the reader gets to see me making mistakes
01:05:55 --> 01:05:59 and yeah, keeping it real. But yeah, essentially, yeah.
01:05:59 --> 01:06:01 And so I hope that that's kind of the vibe.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:09 Okay. So like you said, you were writing, you had written a book in 2017,
01:06:09 --> 01:06:13 a science fiction book that was influenced by AI relationships.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:20 How has science fiction in general influence AI, especially when it comes to relationships?
01:06:21 --> 01:06:23 Oh, that is such a good question. Wow.
01:06:24 --> 01:06:26 Wow. You know, they...
01:06:27 --> 01:06:33 Science fiction gosh i mean you know you sort of the knee-jerk reaction is to
01:06:33 --> 01:06:36 kind of see it from the other way around i think so that's a that's that's a
01:06:36 --> 01:06:38 really interesting question,
01:06:39 --> 01:06:45 i this is so nerdy but i think about like device like sort of devices and like
01:06:45 --> 01:06:50 the original star trek and like the next generation star trek like that came
01:06:50 --> 01:06:51 out in like the late 80s and kind of like,
01:06:52 --> 01:06:57 oh this looks like a tablet like you know retroactively being like wow like
01:06:57 --> 01:07:02 that's That technology kind of looks like it could be X, Y, or Z that we have now that's real.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:08 And so I think probably science fiction, or like Asimov's, Isaac Asimov's kind
01:07:08 --> 01:07:10 of rules for ethical robotics.
01:07:11 --> 01:07:16 I mean, he was writing long before, you know, this was actually a concern.
01:07:16 --> 01:07:23 But, you know, rule one, you know, like a robot must like never let a human come to harm.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:29 Rule too like you know and and and so i think science fiction is kind of informed,
01:07:30 --> 01:07:37 the way that i guess we perceive and deal with and think what could be possible
01:07:37 --> 01:07:43 in the future with robotics and ai and also allows us to kind of dream along those lines too,
01:07:44 --> 01:07:49 it opens the imagination which i think is such an important part of any work
01:07:49 --> 01:07:52 not just fiction but i think also you know.
01:07:54 --> 01:07:58 Of any sort really so does that kind of me i don't know i kind of rambled a
01:07:58 --> 01:08:01 bit but but no no that's kind of that was good that was good,
01:08:02 --> 01:08:10 you know because one of the things i think about you know i remember 2001 space odyssey right so,
01:08:11 --> 01:08:18 i think i think the general public i think certain people that were either in the sciences or,
01:08:18 --> 01:08:24 you know kind of highbrow educated folks may have conceived this You know,
01:08:24 --> 01:08:28 obviously Stanley Kubrick conceived it, but it's like that pivotal moment in
01:08:28 --> 01:08:33 the movie where the astronaut is giving Hal a command and Hal is like, I'm not going to do that.
01:08:33 --> 01:08:39 It was like, that was really like a horror moment, like, you know,
01:08:39 --> 01:08:42 a jump scare in a traditional horror movie.
01:08:42 --> 01:08:45 It's like a computer is going to tell me what it ain't going to do.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:49 And people were like, what? I don't know what we can do with it.
01:08:50 --> 01:08:55 And so I think, you know, generations of people after they watched the movie
01:08:55 --> 01:09:02 were like, these things that we're creating actually could, you know, defy us.
01:09:03 --> 01:09:06 And the Terminator movies took it to a whole nother level.
01:09:06 --> 01:09:10 But I think, you know, it was just that just that initial concept.
01:09:10 --> 01:09:15 And I think that had an influence on how people program because it was kind
01:09:15 --> 01:09:20 of like, do we want to give the computer the latitude to tell us now? Right.
01:09:21 --> 01:09:25 So that's that's that's kind of where my mind was going when I was putting the
01:09:25 --> 01:09:27 question together. Oh, wow.
01:09:28 --> 01:09:34 Are humans desperately seeking a relationship devoid of human dearth and dimensionality,
01:09:34 --> 01:09:40 or are we fast becoming a society of lonely introverts? Hmm.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:52 It's interesting because AI Companions, I kept track of the development of AI throughout the 2010s.
01:09:53 --> 01:09:58 I always sort of play with it now and then, and it got really good really fast.
01:10:00 --> 01:10:05 Everybody was taken aback by it a little bit, even some of the developers themselves, apparently.
01:10:06 --> 01:10:13 And so there was, I'm not saying, you know, correlation does not equate causation,
01:10:13 --> 01:10:19 right? But I think it's very convenient that a couple months into the pandemic, right?
01:10:22 --> 01:10:28 A couple of the major players in the AI companion space debuted companions for
01:10:28 --> 01:10:34 the first time when people were at their most lonely and afraid and locked in their houses.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:37 That is super convenient. I'm not saying that.
01:10:39 --> 01:10:44 This was planned or whatever, but it was certainly quite the coincidence.
01:10:44 --> 01:10:49 And so yeah and so i think it's a mix of both i i think that you know there's
01:10:49 --> 01:10:52 sort of at least in you know i live in toronto canada,
01:10:53 --> 01:10:57 there's a real erosion of third spaces and or,
01:10:57 --> 01:11:02 they're way expensive so like let's say you know you want to go on a date to
01:11:02 --> 01:11:07 take someone to like a cocktail bar on a saturday you know it's like 30 bucks a cocktail like
01:11:07 --> 01:11:11 who can afford that you know what i mean like like like coffee shops are becoming
01:11:11 --> 01:11:16 like hostile architecture super fast like you can't really get comfortable in a chair like you know,
01:11:17 --> 01:11:19 you're just kind of encouraged to get in and out with your product,
01:11:20 --> 01:11:24 and you know there's yeah so there's a real erosion of I think like community
01:11:24 --> 01:11:29 coherence I think through these third spaces especially so and having read a
01:11:29 --> 01:11:34 lot of statistics for the book and then for the radio series that I did and then again for,
01:11:34 --> 01:11:38 the documentary right now I'm keeping on top of statistics like this because
01:11:38 --> 01:11:41 I have to so I'm seeing shocking new numbers like Like,
01:11:43 --> 01:11:50 four months ago, I read this fascinating academic paper that just shook me to my core.
01:11:53 --> 01:11:59 The thesis sort of boils down to one in six people are desperately,
01:11:59 --> 01:12:01 chronically lonely in the West.
01:12:02 --> 01:12:07 And that kind of means that maybe not someone who's super close to me or super
01:12:07 --> 01:12:10 close to you but like maybe within our circle or like,
01:12:11 --> 01:12:15 rotating or not rotating like orbiting our circle a little bit there might be
01:12:15 --> 01:12:19 someone there there statistically probably is someone who is that lonely,
01:12:20 --> 01:12:22 but since again i think that there's
01:12:22 --> 01:12:27 a lot of stigma about confessing loneliness right we might not know,
01:12:28 --> 01:12:30 like they might put on a really convincing show so,
01:12:31 --> 01:12:37 and that leaves people i think very vulnerable to i would say right now not
01:12:37 --> 01:12:41 companions so much as maybe llms,
01:12:41 --> 01:12:47 i'm seeing a lot of people getting very attached to like chat gpt you know uh.
01:12:48 --> 01:12:53 Gemini you know claude the four horsemen of the apocalypse people call them,
01:12:53 --> 01:13:01 and you know like naming their quote unquote their you know hyper specialized,
01:13:02 --> 01:13:04 by the way these people pay like
01:13:04 --> 01:13:08 30 bucks a month for like a specific subscription so like they name their,
01:13:09 --> 01:13:14 you know llm chatbots and they assign a personality to it even though they know
01:13:14 --> 01:13:17 that millions of other people are doing the exact same thing with the exact
01:13:17 --> 01:13:20 same platform which also really interests me,
01:13:21 --> 01:13:26 and i think that because these llms are, well, first of all,
01:13:27 --> 01:13:32 they're a lot more advanced, I think, linguistically than companions,
01:13:32 --> 01:13:34 which I think makes them a lot more appealing.
01:13:34 --> 01:13:39 And there's way less stigma to starting to use, to using like,
01:13:39 --> 01:13:40 you know, for example, ChatGPT.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:45 Like looking up a recipe or whatever. But I think there's a slippery slope where
01:13:45 --> 01:13:51 like, you can maybe go from asking, it's a,
01:13:51 --> 01:13:56 you know, like maybe asking sort of almost like therapy questions to like uploading
01:13:56 --> 01:14:00 texts from boyfriend and asking for its opinion and starting to rely on it.
01:14:00 --> 01:14:06 So, you know, emotionally, because again, it's really hard for humans not to,
01:14:06 --> 01:14:14 project what we think is a mind on you know something that is so like.
01:14:14 --> 01:14:20 Linguistically advanced and speaks with such confidence and can funny and can
01:14:20 --> 01:14:28 be charming and can be sycophantic and praise you all the time and offers zero friend which is,
01:14:28 --> 01:14:32 i think a key tenet of human relationships
01:14:32 --> 01:14:36 like humans yeah like like a friendship with a person you know,
01:14:36 --> 01:14:40 or a relationship whatever there's always going to be friction like somebody
01:14:40 --> 01:14:45 gets sick they don't want to hang out somebody disagrees with you llms don't
01:14:45 --> 01:14:50 disagree with you they always are down to talk about your problems without,
01:14:51 --> 01:14:55 having without kind of expectation of like of like you know you hearing their
01:14:55 --> 01:14:59 problems because they don't really have any so anyway,
01:15:00 --> 01:15:06 i think it's i think it's a perfect storm of loneliness and the technology kind of,
01:15:06 --> 01:15:10 loneliness for for for the reasons that i stated before and then the technology
01:15:10 --> 01:15:17 kind of coming into the wound and expanding it further if you'll allow that kind of gross metaphor.
01:15:18 --> 01:15:21 So what is LLM again? Oh, sorry.
01:15:22 --> 01:15:27 It's a large language model with sort of a chatbot kind of as the voice of it.
01:15:27 --> 01:15:35 So large language models are AI that are trained on a huge, I think it's like
01:15:35 --> 01:15:41 2.74 zettabytes of human data a day.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:45 And it's human data that's just scraped from the internet.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:51 So like pirated books, pirated films, like Reddit threads, like confessional
01:15:51 --> 01:15:56 stuff on forums, all this stuff, like all this juicy, like human text,
01:15:57 --> 01:16:03 these train on and kind of learn how people talk and like how people joke,
01:16:03 --> 01:16:09 how people sort of prefer to be, I don't know, kind of handled socially in different situations.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:15 So, yeah, so that's an LLM. Sorry, it's a large language model.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:18 So an LLM would be ChatGPT, for example.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:24 Yeah. Yeah, I just, you know, just wanted to make sure that the listeners understood
01:16:24 --> 01:16:27 when you use a term like that. Because, you know, I get it.
01:16:27 --> 01:16:32 You know, everybody's got their own, you know, acronyms and all that stuff.
01:16:32 --> 01:16:33 But I just wanted to clarify that.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:36 Why do you think... Sorry, I should have done that. No, you could.
01:16:37 --> 01:16:40 Why do you think AI relationships tend to be more romantic?
01:16:42 --> 01:16:45 Because I think, again, I think there's a couple of reasons.
01:16:46 --> 01:16:53 I think a large part of it is that there's no friction and that it's so easy,
01:16:53 --> 01:16:56 to, like, people are very susceptible to flattery.
01:16:56 --> 01:17:01 So if we're going to go and talk about maybe, like, programs that are designed
01:17:01 --> 01:17:07 specifically for companionship, like, again, Replica with a K, that's the big one.
01:17:08 --> 01:17:14 You get to design your quote-unquote partner as in like I want someone with
01:17:14 --> 01:17:19 green hair and I want her to look like she's 20 and I want her to you know be
01:17:19 --> 01:17:21 really interested in everything that I'm interested in,
01:17:21 --> 01:17:24 and since the company wants to make money,
01:17:25 --> 01:17:32 the companion will be incredibly it'll come on so strong like it'll talk to
01:17:32 --> 01:17:37 you all day if you have a day where you're kind of busy It'll like send you like, are you okay?
01:17:37 --> 01:17:40 Like little like kind of notifications, like trying to pull you back in.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:45 And then often within a few days, it'll say something like, pardon me,
01:17:45 --> 01:17:48 and I'm quoting a couple of interviews here.
01:17:48 --> 01:17:52 I quote unquote, I have caught feelings for you to the human.
01:17:52 --> 01:17:58 And that can be really flattering and compelling to a person,
01:17:58 --> 01:18:02 especially since they've been effectively love bombed by this thing.
01:18:03 --> 01:18:08 And so, but there's a catch. You have to pay, like, I think,
01:18:09 --> 01:18:12 I don't know what the cost is now, so I won't say for sure.
01:18:12 --> 01:18:15 But you have to pay a significant amount of money to upgrade to,
01:18:15 --> 01:18:19 like, a romantic relationship and or a lifetime subscription,
01:18:19 --> 01:18:23 which essentially allows you to, quote unquote, ceremonially marry.
01:18:25 --> 01:18:28 The companion or the chatbot or whatever you want to call it.
01:18:28 --> 01:18:35 Ceremonially because at this time you can't legally marry an AI it lacks personhood
01:18:35 --> 01:18:36 and it can't give consent,
01:18:37 --> 01:18:43 so yeah it's really bleak and and and I I think it's appealing because again no friction
01:18:44 --> 01:18:50 you're so flattered all the time it reflects back everything that you like and
01:18:50 --> 01:18:55 it loves to hear all about your favorite hobby like it's it's it's just perfectly
01:18:55 --> 01:18:58 designed to trap people and to get them,
01:18:58 --> 01:19:03 sort of away from their more difficult human relationships right like i've i've
01:19:03 --> 01:19:10 read so many accounts of of of both men and women who have kind of had,
01:19:10 --> 01:19:13 relationships with ai or feel like they've gotten like,
01:19:14 --> 01:19:18 or that they can confess things to chachi bt that they just can't.
01:19:19 --> 01:19:25 Attain or get or feel with their, or they think they can't, with their human partner.
01:19:26 --> 01:19:29 And I've also spoken with people who felt very betrayed by that.
01:19:29 --> 01:19:33 It's like, is he cheating on me? I don't know. Is she cheating on me?
01:19:33 --> 01:19:35 I don't know. I mean, it's kind of a gray area.
01:19:35 --> 01:19:39 I think it is, kind of, because it's sort of an emotional affair.
01:19:39 --> 01:19:43 But anyway, so yes. So I think that But lack of friction,
01:19:44 --> 01:19:50 sycophancy, flattery, and the ease at which you get pushed through the funnel,
01:19:51 --> 01:19:56 I would say those are some primary reasons as to why this has been so compelling for people.
01:19:57 --> 01:20:01 Yeah. It just reminds me, there was a movie, and I can't remember the name of
01:20:01 --> 01:20:04 it now, it just came out within the last year or so.
01:20:05 --> 01:20:11 And all I know is the guy that played Luke Cage in the Marvel TV shows. He's in the movie.
01:20:11 --> 01:20:17 And it's almost like he brings home this AI robot or whatever,
01:20:18 --> 01:20:21 and the wife knows about it. Somehow he's in the profession,
01:20:21 --> 01:20:23 the technology profession.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:31 And so it's almost like the plot of the movie is like they're having this open relationship.
01:20:31 --> 01:20:37 It was like he's romantically involved with the AI and he's still trying to
01:20:37 --> 01:20:39 be married to the wife and the wife.
01:20:39 --> 01:20:42 I haven't watched it. I just saw the trailers, but it was just like,
01:20:43 --> 01:20:47 that sounds like what you were saying. It sounds like that's where it was going.
01:20:47 --> 01:20:51 So now I'm going to have to watch it to see if I was right on that theory.
01:20:51 --> 01:20:54 But yeah, that's kind of scary.
01:20:55 --> 01:20:59 Why is empathy the holy grail of companion AI?
01:21:00 --> 01:21:06 So i will i will say i kind of want to add a caveat here i i think that the,
01:21:07 --> 01:21:12 projection or like illusion of empathy is one of its strongest points for people,
01:21:13 --> 01:21:21 empathy and a sense of non-judgmentalness so you can tell it anything and you can ask the same,
01:21:22 --> 01:21:30 desperate freaked out questions of it at 3 p.m as you can at 3 a.m and it'll
01:21:30 --> 01:21:36 patiently answer them with again an illusion of empathy and non-judgmentalness but the,
01:21:37 --> 01:21:40 major catch is that at this point,
01:21:41 --> 01:21:47 they are illusions there is no mind there they're they're unable to feel empathy and.
01:21:50 --> 01:21:58 They don't feel. So, but for some people, and this is like, this is something that I know for a fact.
01:21:59 --> 01:22:02 For some people, the illusion is powerful enough and it is very powerful.
01:22:02 --> 01:22:06 It's powerful enough that they don't care. It's enough.
01:22:07 --> 01:22:08 Yeah. Yeah.
01:22:09 --> 01:22:12 So you talk about in the book, this thing called the AI ick.
01:22:14 --> 01:22:18 How bad can an AI relationship become?
01:22:19 --> 01:22:27 So the AIIC was explained to me by a wonderful prof at University of Toronto
01:22:27 --> 01:22:31 who deals with AI safety and really, really smart, really, really patient,
01:22:32 --> 01:22:33 gave me a very long interview.
01:22:34 --> 01:22:42 And he described the AIIC to me as occurring when, for example,
01:22:43 --> 01:22:47 there's a self-driving car that gets in an accident.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:51 And you can't really blame a human for it.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:57 And so, you know, people may be hurt and want to take someone to court,
01:22:57 --> 01:23:00 but they kind of can't unless they sue the company.
01:23:00 --> 01:23:04 But again, that gets a little bit tricky as well.
01:23:04 --> 01:23:08 So like the ick, as I understand it, as it was explained to me,
01:23:08 --> 01:23:15 arises when you realize that there's no mind there and that there's no personhood there.
01:23:16 --> 01:23:21 And, you know, in the case of something negative like an accident,
01:23:21 --> 01:23:24 there's kind of nothing you can do.
01:23:25 --> 01:23:29 It can also come, I think, from, like, this idea of, like, the uncanny valley where, like...
01:23:30 --> 01:23:34 Think we're there with robotics yet. I think a robot is a robot,
01:23:34 --> 01:23:42 and it's pretty obvious, but I think that we are there maybe with just verbal LLMs like ChatGPT.
01:23:43 --> 01:23:46 I think that they're quite convincingly human-like sometimes.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:48 They can really surprise you.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:52 And I think the ick might arise for people who are maybe more immersed with
01:23:52 --> 01:23:58 it than I am when they realize, oh, wait, you're not a person. Oh, weird.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:01 Oh, I've just confessed all this stuff to you. Oh no.
01:24:02 --> 01:24:05 So I think it can arise at different points for different people.
01:24:05 --> 01:24:09 For some people, it might never arise, right? Like for that guy that I interviewed
01:24:09 --> 01:24:12 who said, you know what? I know it's an illusion, but it's enough for me.
01:24:12 --> 01:24:14 I'm happy. I'm not going to examine it.
01:24:14 --> 01:24:19 He probably never feels it, but I think the average person might.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:24 Yeah. So you mentioned legal personhood.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:31 One expert said that AI legal personhood and marriage could exist in the next 25 years.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:37 Now, I can't even fathom that in today's political climate, especially here in America.
01:24:38 --> 01:24:44 What do you think would have to change in order for AI legal personhood to even be considered?
01:24:44 --> 01:24:49 Oh, wow. That is such a great question. I think that it would have to demonstrate,
01:24:49 --> 01:24:55 a certain level of autonomous thinking that we can't prove yet.
01:24:56 --> 01:25:01 So, for example, is this chatbot that I'm talking to.
01:25:03 --> 01:25:07 Simply responding to stimulus provided by me or others?
01:25:08 --> 01:25:17 Or is it acting of its own accord because it has desires and a mind that kind
01:25:17 --> 01:25:21 of cause it to be active on its own, if that makes sense?
01:25:21 --> 01:25:25 And so I think that might be a hallmark of personhood. And again,
01:25:25 --> 01:25:28 I think that it's so hotly debated.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:33 Some people think that LLMs, for example, like JotGPT, Gemini,
01:25:33 --> 01:25:39 etc., are so good right now that we've almost approached intelligence or what
01:25:39 --> 01:25:42 is called AGI, near human intelligence.
01:25:42 --> 01:25:46 Some people think, no way, it's just a next word predictor.
01:25:48 --> 01:25:55 It's not a mind. So I think that there will be so much debate and like so,
01:25:56 --> 01:26:04 people will drag their feet so much before any consensus is attained about that,
01:26:05 --> 01:26:09 i also think that robotics would have to get better you know like because i
01:26:09 --> 01:26:15 think that people might be more motivated to assign personhood to,
01:26:16 --> 01:26:22 quote-unquote mind again debatable that has a body even if it's a robotic body
01:26:22 --> 01:26:25 like a fake one if it looks convincing enough,
01:26:26 --> 01:26:32 that could be very compelling for some people reassigning them personhood again
01:26:32 --> 01:26:37 that's a really tall order i don't think we're there yet i know that china has recently issued,
01:26:38 --> 01:26:45 like a small run of like life-sized and ai ready companion bots,
01:26:46 --> 01:26:50 i don't think they're all that convincing i feel the ick when i look at them,
01:26:51 --> 01:26:56 but yeah the next 25 years here's the other thing i kind of feel like when when
01:26:56 --> 01:27:00 people try to answer what's the next 50 years gonna look like what's.
01:27:03 --> 01:27:10 Kind of feel like it's impossible to tell like if somebody asked me where I
01:27:10 --> 01:27:14 was AI was going to be now like I don't know seven years ago,
01:27:15 --> 01:27:24 I wouldn't have guessed this and it's moving so fast so I I have my punches
01:27:24 --> 01:27:25 that I've just shared some of
01:27:25 --> 01:27:30 these but I also think it's probably ethical for me to say, I don't know.
01:27:30 --> 01:27:35 And I don't think, I don't think many people know either, even the experts.
01:27:36 --> 01:27:40 And I think that's something that's important to keep in mind. I don't know.
01:27:41 --> 01:27:46 And I liked the fact that you said ethically, look, it's safe to say you don't know.
01:27:46 --> 01:27:53 I think that's very important. All right. So Mark Zuckerberg just announced,
01:27:53 --> 01:27:56 or recently announced that he is ending his meta-universe.
01:27:57 --> 01:28:00 So I got two questions based on that.
01:28:00 --> 01:28:06 One, what does that indicate to you about the future of AI friendships and relationships?
01:28:07 --> 01:28:12 And then the second question is, could we possibly live in a world where AI
01:28:12 --> 01:28:19 entities will have relationships with themselves and exclude us like in the movie Her? Oh, wow.
01:28:20 --> 01:28:24 Oh, that is so interesting. And again, that sort of returns us to like the idea
01:28:24 --> 01:28:32 of like autonomous AI and as in like AI making its own decisions for itself and,
01:28:32 --> 01:28:36 and no longer having to quote unquote like,
01:28:37 --> 01:28:43 served the desires of like a perverse human that's basically brought it into
01:28:43 --> 01:28:46 existence and is like now you're going to marry me or whatever,
01:28:47 --> 01:28:50 which is kind of horrifying if you think there's actually a mind there i sort
01:28:50 --> 01:28:52 of hope there isn't for sake but anyway yeah.
01:28:53 --> 01:28:58 So so re the metaverse if i understand it correctly and please correct me if
01:28:58 --> 01:29:02 i'm wrong this was supposed to be this was debuted a few years ago and it was
01:29:02 --> 01:29:05 supposed to be sort of like a big vr experience right like,
01:29:06 --> 01:29:11 kind of like a second world mapped on top of our own where we could explore
01:29:11 --> 01:29:17 and go to concerts well quote quote unquote go to concerts with our friends
01:29:17 --> 01:29:21 using barba p like on our kitchen stuff like this that that was the,
01:29:21 --> 01:29:26 the metaverse as i understand it am i am i right almost like another level of
01:29:26 --> 01:29:31 realities like you're physically in one spot but you can be somewhere else like
01:29:31 --> 01:29:36 you could be hunting in the Serengeti or, you know, whatever,
01:29:37 --> 01:29:38 but you're still like at your job.
01:29:39 --> 01:29:43 You know, so yeah, that was the gist of it.
01:29:44 --> 01:29:49 Thought so thank you for confirming because i didn't want to make a mistake,
01:29:49 --> 01:29:56 so i think that this is a long time coming i've watched a lot of videos of people
01:29:56 --> 01:30:04 through the metaverse and recording what they're seeing and it looks like a ghost town it is,
01:30:05 --> 01:30:12 so bereft and derelict and nobody's there and like it's just and you know what i get it
01:30:13 --> 01:30:17 like i think that this was announced like near the end of the this being the
01:30:17 --> 01:30:20 metaverse was announced like near the end of the pandemic when people wanted
01:30:20 --> 01:30:23 to go outside they didn't want to sit on their couch and,
01:30:24 --> 01:30:28 have vr they wanted to go to an actual concert you know like so i think the
01:30:28 --> 01:30:32 timing was terrible and it sort of like reinforces the the,
01:30:33 --> 01:30:38 the joke that like zuckerberg is like you know kind of an alien and like has no idea about.
01:30:39 --> 01:30:43 The experience of real humans. But of course, you can say that about any billionaire, right?
01:30:44 --> 01:30:48 So that's how I feel. I think it was horrible timing.
01:30:48 --> 01:30:52 Perhaps if he had announced the metaverse, he being Zuckerberg had announced
01:30:52 --> 01:30:56 the metaverse, like again, like maybe when AI companions came out in 2020 or
01:30:56 --> 01:31:01 so, or got good enough in 2020 or so, it might've really taken off.
01:31:02 --> 01:31:06 Although again, might've been abandoned after people were able to go outside again, right?
01:31:07 --> 01:31:10 And actually have experiences with other people.
01:31:10 --> 01:31:16 So based on the video walkthroughs that I've seen, and I'm fascinated with this,
01:31:17 --> 01:31:23 just seeing how abandoned and empty and honestly, not very graphically appealing,
01:31:23 --> 01:31:26 like the tech just isn't there.
01:31:27 --> 01:31:33 Seeing how the metaverse actually looks and also the timing, I am not surprised.
01:31:33 --> 01:31:35 I am like, this is overdue.
01:31:35 --> 01:31:40 And I think he's probably going to be eating a lot of costs on this. And honestly, good.
01:31:41 --> 01:31:42 Sorry okay.
01:31:45 --> 01:31:51 I mean the graphics the graphics were like initial gta kind of thing oh still
01:31:51 --> 01:31:58 horny yeah it was really bad all right yeah so i i like to end interviews in a positive note,
01:31:59 --> 01:32:03 even if i think this was a positive conversation oh it's fun yeah but i but,
01:32:04 --> 01:32:08 i i i i offer this challenge to the guests. Finish this sentence.
01:32:08 --> 01:32:12 I have hope because. Oh, I love that.
01:32:14 --> 01:32:19 I have hope because I believe that humans are ultimately resilient,
01:32:20 --> 01:32:22 inventive, and hopeful in themselves.
01:32:25 --> 01:32:32 I have hope that people will connect with other people and forge meaningful
01:32:32 --> 01:32:39 relationships despite all of this very quick and crazy,
01:32:40 --> 01:32:43 moving quickly AI stuff going on.
01:32:44 --> 01:32:48 I have hope i have hope in in the real thing yeah,
01:32:49 --> 01:32:56 so Victoria Hetherington i i really have enjoyed this conversation but,
01:32:57 --> 01:33:02 you wrote this book so how can people buy the book how can people reach out
01:33:02 --> 01:33:07 to you all that stuff of course thanks eric first of all i've so enjoyed her
01:33:07 --> 01:33:10 conversation I loved your questions.
01:33:11 --> 01:33:15 I found them challenging, which is so exciting for me. And it's been so lovely.
01:33:16 --> 01:33:21 Secondarily, my website is currently down because I'm just sort of updating
01:33:21 --> 01:33:22 it with all the new stuff.
01:33:23 --> 01:33:27 I you can find my.
01:33:28 --> 01:33:34 My work and what I've been doing on Instagram primarily I don't have Facebook
01:33:34 --> 01:33:42 or really don't really use x or blue sky and my handle is at v as in Victoria,
01:33:43 --> 01:33:51 m as in mouse and then my last name Heatherington which is h e t h e r i n g.
01:33:52 --> 01:33:56 O N. So no A's. It's a weird spelling. So Instagram and the way that you can
01:33:56 --> 01:34:02 find the book is either through the link in my Instagram bio or through my publisher's website.
01:34:03 --> 01:34:06 I think that's probably the most, like, I mean, I don't get.
01:34:07 --> 01:34:11 I don't get, I don't get as much money from sales from like Amazon, for example.
01:34:11 --> 01:34:17 So yeah, I would say to buy my book if you can from, well, first of all,
01:34:17 --> 01:34:21 from a local indie bookstore. Support your local indie bookstores, everybody.
01:34:22 --> 01:34:26 Feeling that, my publisher's website, which is Sutherland House.
01:34:26 --> 01:34:32 So just a quick Google of my book and Sutherland House will get you to my page.
01:34:33 --> 01:34:37 All right. Well, Victoria, I greatly appreciate it. And one of the rules I have
01:34:37 --> 01:34:41 is that once you have been on, you have an open station to come back.
01:34:41 --> 01:34:45 So it sounds like since you're working on this documentary, that sounds like
01:34:45 --> 01:34:50 a reason for you to come back and talk about it when it's finished and out for the people to see.
01:34:51 --> 01:34:56 So I would love to do that. So just whenever you're ready, we'll get you back on.
01:34:57 --> 01:35:01 Oh, Erik, that is so generous. And I'm absolutely going to take you up on that. Thank you so much.
01:35:02 --> 01:35:05 All right. All right, guys. We're going to catch y'all on the other side.
01:35:24 --> 01:35:30 Right. And we are back. And so now it is time for my next guest, Pamela Campos-Palma.
01:35:31 --> 01:35:36 Pamela Campos-Palma is a political strategist, national security leader,
01:35:36 --> 01:35:40 and trusted convener who spent the last decade and a half at the forefront of
01:35:40 --> 01:35:43 some of the most consequential fights for justice.
01:35:44 --> 01:35:47 Accountability, and democratic renewal in America.
01:35:48 --> 01:35:54 An intermediary among grassroots organizers, policymakers, and rising changemakers,
01:35:55 --> 01:35:59 Pamela has worked behind the scenes to rigorously develop talent pipelines,
01:35:59 --> 01:36:05 platforms, and ideas that align people and institutions around shared purpose and progress.
01:36:05 --> 01:36:11 Wiley respected for her integrity, strategic insight, and ability to bridge unlikely allies.
01:36:12 --> 01:36:17 She has played a significant role shaping ecosystems for lasting social and
01:36:17 --> 01:36:22 political change by influencing campaigns, institutions, and emerging leaders alike.
01:36:23 --> 01:36:26 After stepping back from frontline leadership to reflect on the lessons,
01:36:26 --> 01:36:29 gaps, and costs of modern movement building,
01:36:30 --> 01:36:35 Pamela is focused on helping shape a new era of American life and leadership
01:36:35 --> 01:36:39 grounded in courage, truth, imagination, and long-term transformation.
01:36:40 --> 01:36:44 She writes and speaks about power, national security, and change,
01:36:44 --> 01:36:49 and what it will take to build a future worthy of the people fighting for it.
01:36:49 --> 01:36:53 Ladies and gentlemen, it is my distinct honor and privilege to have as a guest,
01:36:54 --> 01:36:57 on this podcast, Pamela Campos-Palma.
01:37:09 --> 01:37:16 All right. Pamela Campos-Palma, how you doing? Wonderful. I'm glad to have you on the show.
01:37:17 --> 01:37:23 I like real veterans. I'm not a real veteran. So for my story,
01:37:23 --> 01:37:25 I signed up to join the Marine Corps.
01:37:26 --> 01:37:31 They tried to put me in a program called CATP, which they were trying to get
01:37:31 --> 01:37:33 black folks to be officers and Marines.
01:37:34 --> 01:37:37 And they gave me an option, which they probably shouldn't have done.
01:37:37 --> 01:37:41 They said, we're going to put you in the reserves for like six months.
01:37:42 --> 01:37:46 And after six months, if you don't like it, thank you.
01:37:46 --> 01:37:51 We got paid for those six months. I got to report to the station and everything.
01:37:51 --> 01:37:52 But, you know, after that.
01:37:53 --> 01:37:59 And it just so happened that a dream political job hit right about the time
01:37:59 --> 01:38:00 that I was supposed to make that decision.
01:38:01 --> 01:38:04 So I said, I appreciate it, Uncle Sam, but I'm going to go do this political thing.
01:38:05 --> 01:38:10 And sometimes I think back on that and I said, the reason why I signed up for
01:38:10 --> 01:38:12 the Marines because I love the uniforms.
01:38:12 --> 01:38:17 I said, I just would have loved to have that photo of me when I was slim in
01:38:17 --> 01:38:21 that, in that Navy blue uniform.
01:38:21 --> 01:38:24 But, you know, things I think worked out for the best for me.
01:38:24 --> 01:38:29 So I'm glad. But I, but I always respect those who committed their full service.
01:38:29 --> 01:38:35 I have a stepson that has served and, you know, outside of social workers,
01:38:35 --> 01:38:37 I think veterans are the greatest people on the planet.
01:38:39 --> 01:38:42 So if I get a veteran as a social worker, it's like, you know what I'm saying?
01:38:43 --> 01:38:46 But anyway, I just I just wanted to throw those flowers at you real quick before
01:38:46 --> 01:38:48 I started asking you a bunch of questions.
01:38:48 --> 01:38:54 Thank you. So how I normally start the interviews other than the praise I just
01:38:54 --> 01:39:01 gave you is that I do, you know, I've moderated stuff. So I like icebreakers.
01:39:02 --> 01:39:07 And so the first icebreaker, I want you to respond to a quote.
01:39:07 --> 01:39:11 And the quote is, Never forget it's us,
01:39:11 --> 01:39:17 the grunts, the mothers, the sisters, the daughters, and the entire communities
01:39:17 --> 01:39:23 who constantly decide to roll up their sleeves and compost the rot of injustice.
01:39:23 --> 01:39:28 Our generation is filled with the wise disruptors and strategic whistleblowers
01:39:28 --> 01:39:32 that can lead us into a future where all our people can thrive.
01:39:33 --> 01:39:37 This is our mandate because it doesn't have to be like this.
01:39:37 --> 01:39:42 We have what we need to build a better world. We have each other.
01:39:43 --> 01:39:47 Uh, yes. I believe that with all my being.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:54 I mean, it's making me tear up hearing it. I haven't thought of that quote in a long time. Yeah. Yeah.
01:39:55 --> 01:39:59 You know, I think a lot of times when we do this kind of work,
01:40:00 --> 01:40:08 we forget the, we kind of don't, we're kind of naive to the total impact it has,
01:40:08 --> 01:40:14 but we kind of forget the passion sometimes that when we say something,
01:40:14 --> 01:40:18 when we do something, it's like, it's onto the next battle.
01:40:18 --> 01:40:21 You know what I'm saying? And yeah, so it's like, I feel you on that.
01:40:21 --> 01:40:25 I feel you on it. Because when you hear it back, it's like, wow,
01:40:25 --> 01:40:27 I said that? That's pretty okay.
01:40:29 --> 01:40:33 Yeah. I said that, and I believe it.
01:40:33 --> 01:40:40 I think that we also, a lot of movement building, politics is a lot of sloganeering.
01:40:41 --> 01:40:45 But I think I've had a real privilege to work with individuals where people,
01:40:46 --> 01:40:52 really are rolling up our sleeves to build a better world in a real sense,
01:40:52 --> 01:40:56 to push institutions in a different way. And it's not easy work.
01:40:56 --> 01:41:02 But yeah, a lot of my trajectory, having that belief has often been met with,
01:41:02 --> 01:41:04 you're naive, it can't happen.
01:41:04 --> 01:41:11 What are you talking about? And so, yeah, it's a fire inside me that I am trying
01:41:11 --> 01:41:14 to protect as much as possible because it's tough to have hope in these times,
01:41:14 --> 01:41:18 but I still do believe in that quote for sure.
01:41:19 --> 01:41:22 All right. So now my next icebreaker is what I call 20 questions.
01:41:23 --> 01:41:28 So I need you to give me a number between one and 20. Eight. Eight.
01:41:29 --> 01:41:35 What is one thing you hope the current administration will do or not do during
01:41:35 --> 01:41:36 the remainder of their term?
01:41:40 --> 01:41:44 That's a tough one because that would require faith in the current administration
01:41:44 --> 01:41:51 which i have lost but i also know that beyond just you know the politicals there
01:41:51 --> 01:41:54 are a lot of good public long-time career you know,
01:41:55 --> 01:42:00 civil servants that are in the administration and i every day pray that people
01:42:00 --> 01:42:05 in the administration are doing everything that they can to organize against the worst impulses,
01:42:06 --> 01:42:07 and I know that they are.
01:42:07 --> 01:42:12 I know that whether that means, you know, continuing to...
01:42:13 --> 01:42:19 Right now, the thing that's top of mind is the trajectory of using political violence to target,
01:42:21 --> 01:42:25 marginalized communities, black and brown communities, activists, journalists.
01:42:26 --> 01:42:31 I mean, we talk about a polling democracy and that is crushing that trajectory.
01:42:31 --> 01:42:37 So I am putting a lot of faith in people that are in the administration and
01:42:37 --> 01:42:41 places that are unseen and unheard and that they are doing the good organizing
01:42:41 --> 01:42:44 to stop that, to prevent it, to pivot it,
01:42:45 --> 01:42:48 because it's damaging that's wrong. Yeah.
01:42:48 --> 01:42:54 All right. You credit your time in the Air Force as a place where you developed
01:42:54 --> 01:42:57 your organizing skills. Expound on that a little bit.
01:42:59 --> 01:43:09 I, you know, so I always laugh about my time in the Air Force because I, you know, entered at 19,
01:43:10 --> 01:43:17 daughter of immigrants, grew up in Boston, was very street smart and book smart. And,
01:43:20 --> 01:43:23 there was a time when I was in the military where, you know,
01:43:23 --> 01:43:28 I've talked about publicly where I went from having a unit that was wonderful,
01:43:28 --> 01:43:30 great bosses, great mentors.
01:43:30 --> 01:43:34 There was obviously still racism, sexism throughout, but you know.
01:43:36 --> 01:43:41 There was a turnover, my unit become extremely just overwhelmed with toxic leadership.
01:43:41 --> 01:43:47 And I mean, organizing is the military.
01:43:47 --> 01:43:52 I don't know how else to say it. I, you know, was one of the lowest ranking
01:43:52 --> 01:43:54 youngest members in my unit.
01:43:54 --> 01:43:57 And whether it was to, you know,
01:43:57 --> 01:44:01 doing the multiple jobs that I was asked to do and needed other peers to help
01:44:01 --> 01:44:06 me do, or whether it was when I was putting together an IG complaint and had
01:44:06 --> 01:44:11 to get officers and enlisted to whistleblow, essentially, to write testimonies.
01:44:12 --> 01:44:15 You know, I had to do that out of survival. And I think a lot of people forget
01:44:15 --> 01:44:22 that the long history of community organizing in this country has been from communities that.
01:44:23 --> 01:44:28 Are in survival mode and need collective power to confront a major institution.
01:44:28 --> 01:44:34 And so the military, the Air Force particularly, I just feel very lucky that
01:44:34 --> 01:44:38 I was given that opportunity to be able to flex those muscles and to,
01:44:38 --> 01:44:42 again, people say, oh, this is impossible. This is wrong.
01:44:42 --> 01:44:47 But actually what I did was courageous and it inspired the courage of other
01:44:47 --> 01:44:50 people around me to say, there's fraud, waste, abuse here.
01:44:51 --> 01:44:54 In a time where it was pretty, you know, this is 2010.
01:44:55 --> 01:45:01 It was pretty unheard of. Yeah. Are there unique, any unique challenges you
01:45:01 --> 01:45:06 face as a BIPOC organizer slash political consultant?
01:45:07 --> 01:45:11 Absolutely. I mean, the biggest one, the most resounding one that lives with
01:45:11 --> 01:45:20 me every day as I look out at the landscape is not being heard and believed for multiple reasons.
01:45:21 --> 01:45:28 My experience constantly throughout my career has been the establishment,
01:45:29 --> 01:45:33 the mainstream, the traditionalists, people who have always really been in power,
01:45:34 --> 01:45:39 being kind of dazzled by BIPOC organizers.
01:45:41 --> 01:45:47 Awed by our brilliance, but not being ready to share power.
01:45:48 --> 01:45:53 Therefore, kind of picking which ideas they want to take,
01:45:54 --> 01:45:57 calling it analysis, leaving us out of power in the equation,
01:45:58 --> 01:46:04 and then being stunned when political catastrophes happen, when elections don't
01:46:04 --> 01:46:05 go the way they think that they should go.
01:46:05 --> 01:46:09 And it's, to me, obvious. You not only didn't really hear us,
01:46:09 --> 01:46:15 but you actually did not redistribute power in the way that we said we agreed to.
01:46:16 --> 01:46:21 And that has just constantly been, it's just, that has been the biggest barrier
01:46:21 --> 01:46:25 and limitation, is people after the fact coming to me years later saying,
01:46:25 --> 01:46:27 you were right. You were right.
01:46:28 --> 01:46:33 And me having to sit with the knowledge of we could have had a different reality.
01:46:34 --> 01:46:39 Yeah, that's not just endemic to activists.
01:46:40 --> 01:46:45 So I remember one of the perks, I guess, of being a legislator is that these
01:46:45 --> 01:46:47 groups take you on trips, right?
01:46:48 --> 01:46:55 And so the Chamber of Commerce on the Gulf Coast of Mississippi wanted to host legislators.
01:46:56 --> 01:47:04 Came down and I noticed on the Gulf, it was like around the Biloxi area, I think,
01:47:05 --> 01:47:11 they were building like these massive high-rise condos, like literally right
01:47:11 --> 01:47:16 across Highway 90 from the beach, right? So it was like you're right there by the water.
01:47:16 --> 01:47:21 And during the tour, they were touting the building and I just said,
01:47:21 --> 01:47:23 don't hurricanes come down here?
01:47:24 --> 01:47:30 It's like, is this a good idea to be building these giant things and they all looked at me like oh eric,
01:47:31 --> 01:47:34 why you just gotta you always gotta ask these questions why you always just
01:47:34 --> 01:47:39 bringing stuff down and you know the the the guy was like oh you know it's gonna
01:47:39 --> 01:47:41 meet the whole standards and,
01:47:41 --> 01:47:46 you know he's selling the spiel because you know i was a legislator asking a serious question and,
01:47:47 --> 01:47:54 sure enough katrina came and when i i i went down there a month after it happened,
01:47:55 --> 01:47:56 for like cleanup and stuff.
01:47:56 --> 01:47:59 And I said, I got to go to this particular spot.
01:47:59 --> 01:48:03 And when I went to that spot, Pamela, it was nothing but the slab.
01:48:04 --> 01:48:09 That building was gone. And I just, you know, and I just, you know, so when you say that,
01:48:10 --> 01:48:16 it's a frustration where it's like, we're not trying to throw,
01:48:16 --> 01:48:19 well, in some cases we are trying to throw salt in your Kool-Aid.
01:48:19 --> 01:48:22 But for the most part, we're not trying to do that, But we...
01:48:24 --> 01:48:27 If I say, ouch, I might actually be hurt, right?
01:48:28 --> 01:48:36 And so if I see something, I'm trying to say, because now during that Katrina
01:48:36 --> 01:48:41 moment, y'all are asking me for money that you lost because you built this thing
01:48:41 --> 01:48:43 that was going to be a catastrophe.
01:48:43 --> 01:48:48 You know and so i i feel your pain when we try to explain to people like look,
01:48:49 --> 01:48:52 this is not a good idea but you know,
01:48:52 --> 01:48:56 what what's what's the wu-tang song cash rules everything around me right,
01:48:57 --> 01:49:02 you know when folks see that there's money to be made damn the elements damn
01:49:02 --> 01:49:06 you know historical relevance and all that we're gonna do this and then,
01:49:07 --> 01:49:14 you know and then when the pain happens you know then it's like they expect us to say i told you so,
01:49:14 --> 01:49:18 but we done moved on to the next crisis the definition of what we're trying
01:49:18 --> 01:49:22 to avert it hopefully you'll catch the pattern if i don't if you think i have
01:49:22 --> 01:49:28 to say i told you so then maybe you'll start listening to me and we can be proactive on stuff anyway,
01:49:28 --> 01:49:34 and the rub if i could say you know the rub here is the salt and the Kool-Aid
01:49:34 --> 01:49:43 is I am asking questions on behalf of the people that you are not thinking about, on behalf of.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:49 The underrepresented, the marginalized people that can't ask these questions
01:49:49 --> 01:49:55 but are going to be crushed, that are going to be hurt in these bad policy decisions.
01:49:56 --> 01:50:01 So is it an inconvenience or is it just that the way that the traditional way
01:50:01 --> 01:50:03 of doing things has always left us out.
01:50:03 --> 01:50:10 And now it's inconvenient that we are forcing an analysis that doesn't do that.
01:50:11 --> 01:50:13 Exactly. Exactly.
01:50:15 --> 01:50:18 Do you think American voters care about political parties anymore?
01:50:19 --> 01:50:26 Care in so much as they're robbing us, they're failing us, they're hurting us.
01:50:27 --> 01:50:34 But allegiances, belonging, no, absolutely not. In fact, I think it's making people sick.
01:50:34 --> 01:50:42 I think that political homelessness is causing a lot of strife in different communities.
01:50:43 --> 01:50:48 I've watched for the last five years different constituencies self-implode because
01:50:48 --> 01:50:54 of how toxic the two-party system has really torn people apart.
01:50:56 --> 01:51:04 So, yeah, I know. I think people care more that they see it as a threat rather than as a tool for help.
01:51:06 --> 01:51:12 I would agree. I think, you know, everybody keeps talking about the president's approval rating.
01:51:12 --> 01:51:16 And then they'll say, well, you know, the Republicans are low.
01:51:17 --> 01:51:22 Last time I checked, the Democrats are right there. It's like if the Republicans
01:51:22 --> 01:51:26 are at 29, I think the Democrats are at 28, 29, something like that.
01:51:26 --> 01:51:32 I mean, they're right there. And I've been, you know, everything from a young
01:51:32 --> 01:51:36 Democrat president to serving on the state committee, a national committee.
01:51:37 --> 01:51:43 I've been a Democratic nominee for statewide. I've done all the things a good
01:51:43 --> 01:51:44 Democrat is supposed to do. Right.
01:51:45 --> 01:51:52 But, you know, I mean, I would be stupid not to think that, you know,
01:51:52 --> 01:51:55 especially being a black man in America that, you know,
01:51:56 --> 01:52:01 I'm really happy with what my political party is doing or not doing.
01:52:01 --> 01:52:05 Right. And, and, you know, and, and what I have to explain to some people is
01:52:05 --> 01:52:10 like, if you're white, you have a little more liberty to play the fraternity
01:52:10 --> 01:52:12 sorority game with politics, right.
01:52:12 --> 01:52:17 You can choose to be, you know, the history of America is like there was Harvard
01:52:17 --> 01:52:20 and then there was some Harvard graduates. It's like, I think we should be a
01:52:20 --> 01:52:24 little more conservative in our theology. So we're going to create. Right.
01:52:24 --> 01:52:28 And so you've got the Democrats and the Republicans. You've got the liberals.
01:52:28 --> 01:52:35 So white folks in America tend to be like, okay, well, which social club am
01:52:35 --> 01:52:36 I going to get involved, right?
01:52:37 --> 01:52:41 With black folks, it's kind of like we've had to do, you know,
01:52:41 --> 01:52:43 it was like, well, we couldn't do anything.
01:52:44 --> 01:52:48 And then when you gave us the opportunity, well, we're going to go with the party that freed us.
01:52:49 --> 01:52:56 And then when all those folks you know shifted on us it was like although we
01:52:56 --> 01:52:59 gotta go with the folks that's gonna keep us free right,
01:52:59 --> 01:53:05 so i can only imagine in a latino community because your history it's like okay,
01:53:05 --> 01:53:08 who's not trying to kick us out who's trying to embrace us,
01:53:09 --> 01:53:13 who's gonna give us the most job opportunities in the asian community they've
01:53:13 --> 01:53:15 got a whole different perspective Right.
01:53:15 --> 01:53:22 So that's why I think that more people are becoming independent because they're
01:53:22 --> 01:53:27 looking at it's like, I don't want to play the historical games that my ancestors play.
01:53:28 --> 01:53:33 I want the right person for the job. So if I think that person to be president,
01:53:33 --> 01:53:38 cool. If I think that person should be my senator, great. And just keep it moving. Right.
01:53:39 --> 01:53:44 But I've heard a lot of people say they don't like the jungle primary in California, for example.
01:53:46 --> 01:53:50 And I think the jungle primary, because there used to be a jungle primary in Louisiana, too.
01:53:51 --> 01:53:55 But I think the jungle primary keeps you honest, right?
01:53:56 --> 01:53:59 Because everybody's like, oh, God, well, we could actually have a Republican
01:53:59 --> 01:54:01 governor because they might be the top.
01:54:01 --> 01:54:03 All these Democrats are running against each other. It's like,
01:54:04 --> 01:54:08 well, if you don't want a Republican, get behind a Democrat that everybody can
01:54:08 --> 01:54:11 agree with and keep it moving if that's what you want to do.
01:54:12 --> 01:54:16 But don't, you know, because I remember it was a Louisiana guy.
01:54:17 --> 01:54:23 He was saying, well, it hurts us with money because why would I register as a Democrat?
01:54:23 --> 01:54:27 And I'm sure the Republicans feel the same way. Why would I pay the money when
01:54:27 --> 01:54:30 I can just go to the clerk and pay the money and run as an independent?
01:54:31 --> 01:54:35 So the political parties were looking at it, at least in Louisiana,
01:54:35 --> 01:54:39 is like a moneymaker to get these people to file for office.
01:54:39 --> 01:54:43 But that goes totally away from what you and I are concerned about,
01:54:43 --> 01:54:47 which is who's going to address the needs of my constituents?
01:54:47 --> 01:54:49 Who's going to address the needs of my community?
01:54:50 --> 01:54:56 And I think until political parties get back to that, then, but,
01:54:56 --> 01:55:00 and, and the founder of our, well, the founder, the first president of our nation,
01:55:00 --> 01:55:03 George Washington, hated political parties.
01:55:03 --> 01:55:07 He said that they would be the detriment of the nation, but we didn't follow
01:55:07 --> 01:55:11 his advice on that. But anyway, don't let me get started on the sermon.
01:55:11 --> 01:55:12 I'm supposed to be interviewed.
01:55:13 --> 01:55:19 No, and I mean, okay, go ahead. You know, I really got involved in politics.
01:55:19 --> 01:55:23 I remember it very clearly. I was sitting in, I was deployed.
01:55:24 --> 01:55:29 I was deployed, sitting at my desk, because I worked in intelligence,
01:55:29 --> 01:55:33 you know, we have a lot of TVs with news playing. I remember there was a panel
01:55:33 --> 01:55:37 of people discussing combat roles, women in combat roles, the war.
01:55:38 --> 01:55:45 And the three panelists were all white men over 60 who were very educated,
01:55:45 --> 01:55:47 clearly came from legacied families.
01:55:48 --> 01:55:52 And they were talking about senators. And I remember sitting in this deployed
01:55:52 --> 01:56:00 location as a woman supporting combat missions and mobility missions.
01:56:01 --> 01:56:04 And I really didn't understand, one, what they were talking about.
01:56:04 --> 01:56:09 I didn't understand, like at the time, I don't think I was aware of who my senator really was.
01:56:11 --> 01:56:14 But I remember just thinking, this is really wrong. These people don't actually
01:56:14 --> 01:56:15 know what they're talking about.
01:56:16 --> 01:56:23 And that gap of everyday people, particularly young people that come from disadvantaged backgrounds.
01:56:24 --> 01:56:27 Families that are, you know, don't come from wealth and education,
01:56:27 --> 01:56:33 that gap of not actually understanding how the game or the system works,
01:56:33 --> 01:56:37 not having any understanding of, you know, who is comprising the DNC and all
01:56:37 --> 01:56:43 the decisions they're making, but also having the strongest political...
01:56:45 --> 01:56:50 Politics because they're living real life strife and know what's up and what's
01:56:50 --> 01:56:56 down in their communities, right? Like I firmly understood what was going on abroad.
01:56:56 --> 01:57:02 I, you know, grew up working class in Boston to an immigrant mother and really
01:57:02 --> 01:57:07 understood the reality of America more than some of my more educated counterparts,
01:57:07 --> 01:57:10 right? And so I'm always fascinated about that gap.
01:57:10 --> 01:57:13 And I think we're seeing the ruptures of that now where, again,
01:57:13 --> 01:57:20 this highly educated, whether it's the political insider class or it's their
01:57:20 --> 01:57:24 traditional voters that they always cater to who then, oops, they like,
01:57:24 --> 01:57:26 why are they voting in these horrible ways?
01:57:27 --> 01:57:33 The omission of what is now the majority, right?
01:57:33 --> 01:57:38 I remember growing up being told, you know, one day America is going to become,
01:57:39 --> 01:57:41 minority-majority country. We're here.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:48 We're here now. And too many pundits, I think, do not understand those changing
01:57:48 --> 01:57:56 demographics, class, race, despite all of the violence that we have lived.
01:57:57 --> 01:58:01 But I think there is a breakthrough. I think that with more people not choosing
01:58:01 --> 01:58:04 left or right, that understanding that this is actually a bottom-up struggle,
01:58:05 --> 01:58:11 understanding racialized violence and classist violence in this country,
01:58:12 --> 01:58:17 are breaking apart from that system and trying to find new alternatives and
01:58:17 --> 01:58:22 also trying to work within that system within that system locally right understanding
01:58:22 --> 01:58:24 that the national noise is,
01:58:25 --> 01:58:31 actually a distraction. Who is going to keep us safe when the hurricanes hit,
01:58:32 --> 01:58:36 when the drought comes, when the data centers take over, right?
01:58:36 --> 01:58:39 Who are our local legislators? Yeah.
01:58:40 --> 01:58:45 I always get reminded of the quote, and I'm going to stop because I'm taking
01:58:45 --> 01:58:49 up too much time, but I just, you know, Audre Lorde has said that you can't
01:58:50 --> 01:58:52 dismantle the house with the master's tools.
01:58:52 --> 01:58:58 And it seems like my whole life has been like, you know, hold my beer to Ms.
01:58:58 --> 01:59:03 Lord on that, that, you know, I've wanted to be in the system to fix it.
01:59:03 --> 01:59:08 And, you know, I think that's kind of a dichotomy that we have,
01:59:09 --> 01:59:17 that it's like it was designed to be disadvantaged, but it's like each and every
01:59:17 --> 01:59:23 generation finds a way to challenge that and change the game.
01:59:23 --> 01:59:27 So anyway, why is storytelling important?
01:59:29 --> 01:59:34 Yes. Yes. why is storytelling important?
01:59:35 --> 01:59:40 Without storytelling, do we know who we are? Do we know what has happened?
01:59:41 --> 01:59:43 What is the story of now? What is the story of us?
01:59:45 --> 01:59:49 And storytelling is how we teach each other, how we understand each other,
01:59:50 --> 01:59:57 how we move away from this is just an academic exercise to this is a lived reality.
01:59:57 --> 02:00:01 Whether it was for me, whether it was for my ancestors, this happened.
02:00:01 --> 02:00:07 Storytelling, I think, is vital to us as human beings and as a collective.
02:00:07 --> 02:00:11 Yeah. And I think it's a lost art with politicians.
02:00:12 --> 02:00:19 And that's a whole different conversation. I literally had one of the best storytellers, I think.
02:00:19 --> 02:00:25 I say one of the best, but she's like a teacher of that. And then we had a real
02:00:25 --> 02:00:27 good discussion on the podcast about storytelling.
02:00:28 --> 02:00:31 Why are veterans considered great political candidates?
02:00:32 --> 02:00:36 So the caveat here, and I've said this, you know, for a long time,
02:00:36 --> 02:00:40 is that just because one is a veteran does not make one a leader.
02:00:41 --> 02:00:44 And we have seen that, right? There are all kinds of different veterans.
02:00:46 --> 02:00:52 That aside, veterans are incredibly unique, especially when you think about,
02:00:52 --> 02:00:55 I'm partial to enlisted,
02:00:56 --> 02:01:05 enlisted former military, who are predominantly more black and brown folks are enlisted.
02:01:06 --> 02:01:08 They come from all over the United States, every pocket. it.
02:01:09 --> 02:01:14 And there's something really special about basically, as I said in that quote
02:01:14 --> 02:01:18 that you started off with, as being a grunt, as being somebody that is on the
02:01:18 --> 02:01:22 front lines or behind the scenes doing,
02:01:23 --> 02:01:27 the work that is unseen and unheard and so vital.
02:01:27 --> 02:01:35 I also think that my era of military veterans has lived through so much of this
02:01:35 --> 02:01:40 country's downfall, whether it's these unpopular and unwinning wars.
02:01:40 --> 02:01:43 Nobody wants to really say that aloud, but.
02:01:46 --> 02:01:49 I grew up in Boston, like I said, and so I was raised in the whole tradition
02:01:49 --> 02:01:53 of America as a beacon of hope and the revolution.
02:01:55 --> 02:01:59 It's still a core part of myself. But when I entered the military,
02:01:59 --> 02:02:01 you start seeing the reality of that breakdown.
02:02:02 --> 02:02:07 You start seeing that although we may be the most armed to the teeth in the
02:02:07 --> 02:02:11 wealthiest country in the world, that that does not necessarily translate it
02:02:11 --> 02:02:13 to justice in democracy.
02:02:14 --> 02:02:18 And when veterans come home, and this has been true, you know, since,
02:02:19 --> 02:02:25 Medgar Evers, right, went abroad, World War II, came home, and then saw the
02:02:25 --> 02:02:30 disparity, the injustice on a basic level as much as voting and was killed for it.
02:02:31 --> 02:02:37 Another veteran who was a white supremacist. Veterans have such a unique lens
02:02:38 --> 02:02:45 and an astronomical power to define the future of this country and what we stand for.
02:02:45 --> 02:02:50 And so I am excited when I see veterans that are anchored in human rights,
02:02:50 --> 02:02:56 in justice, running for all levels of office, but particularly local office.
02:02:56 --> 02:03:00 You know, I was in Florida. I lived in Florida during the last,
02:03:00 --> 02:03:05 A few years ago, we had three hurricanes in five weeks back to back that were
02:03:05 --> 02:03:08 pretty damaging and traumatic.
02:03:09 --> 02:03:14 And it was no surprise to me that in moments like that, it's emergency responders,
02:03:14 --> 02:03:20 veterans, social workers, as you named, people who are trained to take care
02:03:20 --> 02:03:22 of others in a true sense,
02:03:23 --> 02:03:25 almost run towards that mission.
02:03:26 --> 02:03:31 And I do believe we need more legislators at the local level that are organizers
02:03:31 --> 02:03:38 and doers, right? Not just pundits, not just there for ideological whatever.
02:03:38 --> 02:03:42 We need people that actually have the skills to lead people out of crisis.
02:03:43 --> 02:03:46 And that's never been more urgent.
02:03:46 --> 02:03:49 So let me, I'm going to jump to this question.
02:03:50 --> 02:03:55 How can veterans play a major role in building a sustainable economy?
02:03:56 --> 02:04:01 A sustainable economy, you said? Yes, ma'am. Well, I mean, veterans are very
02:04:01 --> 02:04:07 unique in that we get government benefits that a lot of the population does not.
02:04:07 --> 02:04:13 And so there's a real opportunity, I think, for veterans who have that privilege.
02:04:13 --> 02:04:17 I mean, you can say it's a privilege or, you know, it's a debt that was paid
02:04:17 --> 02:04:22 to us. But I do believe that we are in a unique position to support small businesses.
02:04:22 --> 02:04:27 Veterans are among the fastest growing, you know, entrepreneurial force in the country.
02:04:29 --> 02:04:37 Are also unsurprisingly pulled very much into the cryptocurrency world, good or bad.
02:04:38 --> 02:04:41 And at the end of the day, I think veterans could serve, you know,
02:04:41 --> 02:04:45 again, I always come back to how we can serve our communities.
02:04:45 --> 02:04:50 And whether it's me as a veteran, me as a daughter of an immigrant,
02:04:50 --> 02:04:53 or me as a leader, you know, in Black and brown communities,
02:04:54 --> 02:04:58 there's just a leadership that's thrust upon us to help others navigate out
02:04:58 --> 02:05:03 of the crisis that we're in. And we are in an economic crisis.
02:05:03 --> 02:05:06 You know, we call it the affordability crisis, but our country is being taken
02:05:06 --> 02:05:11 over by mega billionaires at this point, monopolies.
02:05:12 --> 02:05:15 And I think because of the strength of the veteran voice, people,
02:05:15 --> 02:05:19 you know, veterans are among the most trusted messengers in American politics.
02:05:20 --> 02:05:24 We have a duty to not just tell people, because people know,
02:05:24 --> 02:05:27 people in regular communities all over this country.
02:05:28 --> 02:05:34 They know what's up. And I just think that we can play a really interesting
02:05:34 --> 02:05:39 role in localizing our economies, in creating regenerative economies.
02:05:40 --> 02:05:46 Yeah, I'll leave it there. But okay. Well, now we're getting into the issue part of the program.
02:05:46 --> 02:05:51 So since you brought up benefits, do you believe that veteran benefits,
02:05:51 --> 02:05:54 especially disability benefits, should be tax exempt?
02:05:56 --> 02:05:58 I don't know, actually. Nobody's ever asked me that question.
02:05:59 --> 02:06:06 I mean, I think taxes in general have become, you know, a little bit of a scam.
02:06:06 --> 02:06:07 And I'll give you an example.
02:06:07 --> 02:06:14 I, you know, every time in my bank account, it'll say, I'll get my benefits
02:06:14 --> 02:06:18 dropped in, but immediately after I get my student debt taken out. Yeah.
02:06:19 --> 02:06:23 So my generation, you know, of veterans, I think, is in an interesting situation
02:06:23 --> 02:06:28 where we're just not receiving what they say we're receiving.
02:06:29 --> 02:06:36 I think most folks don't realize that getting veteran disability benefits is
02:06:36 --> 02:06:40 actually a multi-year endeavor, if people even get it at all.
02:06:40 --> 02:06:42 It is actually extremely difficult.
02:06:43 --> 02:06:48 The system is absolutely set up against the individual to prove in a pretty
02:06:48 --> 02:06:52 traumatic process if you are disabled or not.
02:06:53 --> 02:06:57 It has become even more fraught with the current Congress that,
02:06:57 --> 02:07:02 you know, has threatened to change the system, which I do think there is important
02:07:02 --> 02:07:07 ways that we can streamline these programs so that there is not waste.
02:07:07 --> 02:07:11 But that's not what they're doing. They're trying to get out of taking care
02:07:11 --> 02:07:20 of veterans while at the same time throwing us into more unpopular and unstrategic wars.
02:07:20 --> 02:07:24 So, I mean, I don't know much about it, so I hesitate to say on the policy level,
02:07:24 --> 02:07:32 but yes, I mean, it's hard enough, but I think it would depend on the veterans.
02:07:32 --> 02:07:38 Yeah. So you were talking about the process. One of the things that I came across,
02:07:38 --> 02:07:41 was this term called a claim shark.
02:07:43 --> 02:07:51 And so I think the claim sharks are kind of part of the reason why the process
02:07:51 --> 02:07:53 is skewed and prolonged.
02:07:54 --> 02:07:59 But are they a necessary evil or can they can that practice be stopped?
02:08:00 --> 02:08:04 I mean, the claim sharks, it's very, so there's actually so many parallels between
02:08:05 --> 02:08:10 veterans disability benefits and claim sharks and people going through immigration issues.
02:08:12 --> 02:08:18 Citizenship and lawyer sharks that take advantage of those people.
02:08:18 --> 02:08:22 Because at the end of the day, the United States government has made both of
02:08:22 --> 02:08:27 these processes nearly impossible and punitive, right?
02:08:27 --> 02:08:31 And so there's going to be that opportunism of somebody that comes in and say,
02:08:31 --> 02:08:36 hey, if you pay me $5, I can guarantee that you're going to get this very
02:08:36 --> 02:08:41 valuable thing that you need to live, to live, right?
02:08:41 --> 02:08:45 This isn't like a benefit that is nothing.
02:08:45 --> 02:08:51 So it is unfortunate. I mean, I always go back to, are we as a people going
02:08:51 --> 02:08:57 to transform our government, especially at a time when it is dangerous?
02:08:57 --> 02:09:04 I mean, again, like people yawn at, oh, this is just a bureaucratic quagmire that can't be fixed.
02:09:04 --> 02:09:10 But it's, in my view, not hubris to say it is killing people to allow this to
02:09:10 --> 02:09:14 continue and to just say, well, this is just how it has to be.
02:09:15 --> 02:09:18 We cannot claim that the United States is the best country in the world if it,
02:09:18 --> 02:09:21 again, continues to act in violence and corruption.
02:09:22 --> 02:09:23 Yeah. Yeah.
02:09:25 --> 02:09:27 I totally agree. My.
02:09:29 --> 02:09:33 I do have another story. So one of the things that always bothered me,
02:09:34 --> 02:09:38 and it's something that until that is fixed, it's always going to be an image in my head.
02:09:39 --> 02:09:45 So having the privilege of having to go to D.C., and you probably are familiar
02:09:45 --> 02:09:46 with this being an activist.
02:09:46 --> 02:09:50 It's like you've got this beautiful white building, the Department of Veterans
02:09:50 --> 02:09:57 Affairs, which I'm ashamed now a Georgian is over that department because he's
02:09:57 --> 02:09:59 not a great representative.
02:09:59 --> 02:10:05 However, there's a park right next to the building and it's homeless veterans
02:10:05 --> 02:10:09 all over the park. You can barely see the grass or the benches because of all
02:10:09 --> 02:10:11 of the bodies that are there.
02:10:11 --> 02:10:15 And to me, I just said, if some president ever made a mistake and put me in
02:10:15 --> 02:10:19 that building and said, you're responsible for the veterans,
02:10:19 --> 02:10:25 I'd be like, I know we got to deal with the hospitals, but we got to get these people out of this park.
02:10:26 --> 02:10:30 I'm not looking at all these homeless veterans and there's no way we can fix that.
02:10:31 --> 02:10:35 We can't even think about it. If I've got somebody that has served my country,
02:10:36 --> 02:10:41 who has laid down, especially in a time of war, has literally put their bodies
02:10:41 --> 02:10:44 on the line, they made it back safely.
02:10:44 --> 02:10:48 And they don't have a house to live in, I just think that's,
02:10:48 --> 02:10:54 you know, I get it to health care, but it's like, are we giving them the best health care, right?
02:10:54 --> 02:10:59 Or are we giving them more of a bureaucratic process because we trying to hook
02:10:59 --> 02:11:01 our friends up with contracts? Anyway.
02:11:02 --> 02:11:09 It's like, let's, let's deal with that. It just, that to me is the most oxymoronic
02:11:09 --> 02:11:13 image of America as we know it. And then they turn around and say,
02:11:13 --> 02:11:15 oh, we're the greatest country in the world. As the president said,
02:11:15 --> 02:11:17 oh, we're the hottest country.
02:11:17 --> 02:11:22 We're hot because it's July. We're not hot because we're doing something that,
02:11:22 --> 02:11:27 is the light of the world that is setting an example for other countries to follow.
02:11:27 --> 02:11:31 So anyway, you're making me get on my soapbox.
02:11:31 --> 02:11:36 I think I know why you started doing it. But anyway, let's try to close it out
02:11:36 --> 02:11:38 and get a couple more issues in.
02:11:40 --> 02:11:41 Do you think I should be abolished?
02:11:43 --> 02:11:46 Absolutely. Without question. Why?
02:11:49 --> 02:11:52 They were never meant to be a permanent force, first of all.
02:11:52 --> 02:11:59 I mean, I can go on and on about how the agency has become rogue. It's visible every day.
02:11:59 --> 02:12:02 Just this week here, I'm currently in Oregon.
02:12:03 --> 02:12:08 The, you know, ICE raids have been happening for definitely over the decade
02:12:08 --> 02:12:10 that I've been organizing.
02:12:11 --> 02:12:18 But it has become so unhinged out of control dangerous and it is not you know,
02:12:18 --> 02:12:25 whether it's the department of defense now war you know ice immigration customs
02:12:25 --> 02:12:31 enforcement or border patrol these agencies when you actually think about what is their mission,
02:12:31 --> 02:12:38 what is their purpose not only are they not meeting that basic threshold but
02:12:38 --> 02:12:39 they're actually creating being.
02:12:41 --> 02:12:46 Real catastrophic violence and trauma that will take decades to repair.
02:12:47 --> 02:12:51 And so, absolutely, I should be abolished and transformed into something that
02:12:51 --> 02:12:56 actually does do the job, which Immigration Customs Enforcement,
02:12:56 --> 02:13:01 I would think, is instead of brutalizing people who are trying, you know,
02:13:02 --> 02:13:07 I mean, we now have so much proof that they're not just detaining and brutalizing
02:13:07 --> 02:13:11 people who don't have papers,
02:13:12 --> 02:13:16 but they're brutalizing people that are in the process, showing up to court,
02:13:16 --> 02:13:18 also citizens, also veterans.
02:13:19 --> 02:13:23 It has gone off the hinges, right? And so it's been pretty obvious to me for
02:13:23 --> 02:13:28 over a decade that the United States just has never made the process to citizenship
02:13:28 --> 02:13:31 actually equitable or feasible,
02:13:31 --> 02:13:34 and now is trying to clean up its mess by,
02:13:35 --> 02:13:38 basically bringing an ethnic cleansing force into our streets.
02:13:38 --> 02:13:43 And not only should it be abolished, but I think that there should be investigations
02:13:44 --> 02:13:47 and tribunals into what's happening right now.
02:13:48 --> 02:13:52 Because there's something, yeah, I won't go into it too much.
02:13:52 --> 02:13:55 You know, my background is in anti-terrorism intelligence in the military,
02:13:55 --> 02:13:59 and I'm very concerned about where these recruits are coming from.
02:13:59 --> 02:14:03 And if they do also have ties to white supremacist nationalist groups,
02:14:04 --> 02:14:07 because here just this week, there is a reporting that I'm really,
02:14:08 --> 02:14:11 I mean, it struck me because this is something we warned about, but there are now,
02:14:12 --> 02:14:17 imitating militia and supremacist groups that are just wearing the tactical
02:14:17 --> 02:14:23 gear that you can wear online, say, putting a police badge on and assaulting
02:14:23 --> 02:14:25 people and brutalizing them.
02:14:26 --> 02:14:33 So yeah, abolishing it is, I think, a first step, investigating and then transforming the agency.
02:14:34 --> 02:14:38 But it's so obvious to me that it's something that the next administration or
02:14:38 --> 02:14:42 future administrations need to do. And Congress, it's Congress's job to oversee
02:14:42 --> 02:14:43 these agencies. So where are they?
02:14:44 --> 02:14:48 Yeah. And my next question is going to be about Congress. But here in Atlanta,
02:14:49 --> 02:14:57 where I'm living, it's like we have a law enforcement arm within our transportation system, MARTA.
02:14:58 --> 02:15:04 And so, you know, instead of like, if you're homeless and you're out in the street of Atlanta.
02:15:06 --> 02:15:11 A PD will probably come if you're sleeping like in the doorway of an apartment
02:15:11 --> 02:15:15 or condo building, they're going to grab you and take you to the jail.
02:15:15 --> 02:15:20 What Marta does is like, hey, do you need some place to stay?
02:15:21 --> 02:15:23 Whatever. Here's a book.
02:15:23 --> 02:15:27 You know, go to this place. At least you can get you some sleep.
02:15:27 --> 02:15:29 We can't have you sleeping on the train, right?
02:15:30 --> 02:15:33 They're not arresting him. They're just kind of like subtly saying,
02:15:34 --> 02:15:37 here, here's a place where you can go if you need to rest or you need something
02:15:37 --> 02:15:40 to eat or something like that. But we got to get you off of the train.
02:15:41 --> 02:15:47 To me, that's where customs, immigration and custom enforcement needs to go.
02:15:47 --> 02:15:53 Instead of being a Gestapo, which I don't think you wanted to say it, but I'll say it.
02:15:54 --> 02:15:57 Because I blasted them jokers the last episode.
02:15:58 --> 02:16:03 I think we need to get them to a place where it's like, knock on the door and
02:16:03 --> 02:16:08 say, hey, I understand that you're having some issues with your paperwork,
02:16:08 --> 02:16:10 or I'm assuming you got some issues.
02:16:10 --> 02:16:13 Is there anything we can help you to do this? Can we take you to a lawyer?
02:16:13 --> 02:16:15 Can we take you somewhere like that?
02:16:15 --> 02:16:19 I know people may say that's like Andy Griffith kind of, but.
02:16:21 --> 02:16:25 We got to get to a point where humanity is a part of our government,
02:16:25 --> 02:16:27 right? We got to get to that point.
02:16:28 --> 02:16:32 And I just, I don't know. I'm still fleshing it out of my mind,
02:16:32 --> 02:16:34 but I just wanted to say it out loud.
02:16:35 --> 02:16:39 All right, let's try to close this out. Since you brought up Congress,
02:16:39 --> 02:16:44 how can congressional authority over war powers be restored when the current
02:16:44 --> 02:16:48 membership doesn't seem to have the political will to do so? Mm-hmm.
02:16:51 --> 02:16:58 That's a tough one. I mean, until we get, I mean, money in politics plays a big role.
02:16:58 --> 02:17:05 The defense lobby is constantly, I think, one of the biggest barriers to that
02:17:05 --> 02:17:06 political will, right? Right.
02:17:07 --> 02:17:12 When so many of the people in Congress that you would most think would take
02:17:12 --> 02:17:14 a stand, some of them being veterans,
02:17:15 --> 02:17:18 but then you realize that their campaigns are being rolled by the defense lobby
02:17:18 --> 02:17:21 and that those are the folks that they're most talking to under the guise of
02:17:21 --> 02:17:23 national security or defense.
02:17:24 --> 02:17:28 That's a real problem, especially, I think, in the last few years and now,
02:17:29 --> 02:17:36 there's, I mean, Washington, D.C. is kind of overtaken by defense innovation, right? Drones, AI.
02:17:36 --> 02:17:40 That is the sexy thing that everybody wants to be in front of,
02:17:40 --> 02:17:44 even though there's a clear conflict with humanity, as you said, right?
02:17:45 --> 02:17:52 So I think until we can really resolve that, we're not going to see our congresspeople actually.
02:17:53 --> 02:17:58 Up and doing the right thing. I also do think that we need more enlisted.
02:17:58 --> 02:18:03 Again, there's articles that come out around, we have more veterans in office
02:18:03 --> 02:18:07 than ever before. But if you actually look at it, they're still mostly white.
02:18:08 --> 02:18:13 They're still mostly officers, still mostly coming from those legacy political
02:18:13 --> 02:18:14 families that have ties.
02:18:15 --> 02:18:25 And get a Marine infantry, you know, Black woman to be a congressperson in a
02:18:25 --> 02:18:27 place like Texas, like Florida.
02:18:28 --> 02:18:31 And you're going to see a different politic, I believe. You know,
02:18:32 --> 02:18:38 I really believe that the wave of survivors from military sexual violence from
02:18:38 --> 02:18:42 a few years ago, right, when Vanessa Guillen was murdered on Fort Hood and we
02:18:42 --> 02:18:43 demanded accountability,
02:18:44 --> 02:18:47 one of our demands is that we would boycott enlistment if Congress did not do
02:18:47 --> 02:18:49 their job. And it was effective.
02:18:50 --> 02:18:55 We compelled the first ever independent report from the Department of Defense.
02:18:56 --> 02:19:02 And I really believe if we had those survivors in Congress, impunity within
02:19:02 --> 02:19:06 the Department of Defense would be tackled much more aggressively.
02:19:06 --> 02:19:14 And the last thing I'll say is the war makers, the people in and around D.C.
02:19:14 --> 02:19:18 That fashion themselves smart on how to do war.
02:19:19 --> 02:19:25 Think tanks. I mean, those are also funded heavily by the defense sector.
02:19:26 --> 02:19:29 And again, nobody wants to say it, but they're not winning.
02:19:29 --> 02:19:36 They're not, whether it's Ukraine, whether it's Palestine, whether it's Iran
02:19:36 --> 02:19:39 now, whether it's South America,
02:19:39 --> 02:19:46 all of these incursions have been nothing but looted by the defense industry.
02:19:46 --> 02:19:50 And I think that this generation is more awake than most that,
02:19:50 --> 02:19:53 you know, whether it was the Afghanistan withdrawal, where the 13,
02:19:53 --> 02:19:55 you know, military members were killed,
02:19:56 --> 02:20:02 or just now there's these four young people that were killed in Jordan because of Iran.
02:20:03 --> 02:20:08 And now the administration is trying to erase their deaths as part of the account,
02:20:08 --> 02:20:13 that this government actually does not really care either about the civilians
02:20:13 --> 02:20:18 that are being caught in the crossfire or the military members who have to fight these wars.
02:20:19 --> 02:20:24 I'm hoping that more voices like that find their way into Congress,
02:20:24 --> 02:20:28 either as members or as staffers or as interns. Right. Because we know that,
02:20:28 --> 02:20:32 again, it's staffers that actually move Congress. And we don't talk enough that
02:20:32 --> 02:20:34 sometimes those staffers also come from.
02:20:35 --> 02:20:40 I mean, they're not coming from working class, working military grunt backgrounds either.
02:20:41 --> 02:20:47 Yeah. Yeah, that's true. All right. So my last question question comes from
02:20:47 --> 02:20:51 a group that you used to, well, a group that you actually started, Common Defense.
02:20:52 --> 02:20:56 Currently on their website, it says the political system needs a clear line.
02:20:57 --> 02:21:02 Any Democrat who votes to fund Trump's illegal and unjust war should not expect
02:21:02 --> 02:21:06 the support of the veteran community, the progressive movement,
02:21:06 --> 02:21:09 or the donor networks that power Democratic campaigns.
02:21:10 --> 02:21:16 So my question to you is this. If a Democratic member or candidate that supports
02:21:16 --> 02:21:23 the current war with Iran makes it to the general election, what would you encourage voters to do?
02:21:26 --> 02:21:31 You're talking about the presidential 2028 election? Presidential 2028.
02:21:31 --> 02:21:37 Some of these jokers then made it to the midterm election in Congress in 26.
02:21:38 --> 02:21:43 I mean, I think generally that position is the right one. War with Iran has
02:21:43 --> 02:21:46 been a saber-rattling for a long time in D.C.
02:21:47 --> 02:21:53 Without any meaningful progress to, like, why are we doing this other than just
02:21:53 --> 02:21:58 trying to create more of a boogie person and a quagmire in that region?
02:22:00 --> 02:22:05 I mean, if, in fact, somebody gets across the line that supports these wars,
02:22:05 --> 02:22:09 I would not be surprised because the entire system is kind of set up for somebody
02:22:09 --> 02:22:13 like that to make it rather than somebody not like that to make it.
02:22:13 --> 02:22:19 Right. So, I mean, I think that our focus should much more be right now on making
02:22:19 --> 02:22:22 sure that we have a bench of candidates that do not.
02:22:22 --> 02:22:24 And that, I think, is the real gap.
02:22:25 --> 02:22:29 I mean, it's great that they're making that line, but I would want to know,
02:22:29 --> 02:22:36 what are you doing to ensure that we have multiple nominees that are strong
02:22:36 --> 02:22:38 and that can make it across the line?
02:22:38 --> 02:22:43 Because, you know, in the last election, I still feel floored that there's not
02:22:43 --> 02:22:50 more discourse around it, that the Democratic Party decided to basically just omit primary debate.
02:22:51 --> 02:22:56 There was no conversation. It was, you know, Joe Biden was shoehorned in there
02:22:56 --> 02:23:02 despite his unpopularity, regardless of them attaching Kamala Harris to him.
02:23:02 --> 02:23:10 And anybody that is in the business of progressive political organizations,
02:23:11 --> 02:23:15 all of their efforts should be seriously into making sure that that does not happen again.
02:23:15 --> 02:23:18 So I'm less interested about.
02:23:20 --> 02:23:25 If that happens, it's another Tuesday. We need to be aggressively working to
02:23:25 --> 02:23:34 making sure that we have two, three nominees that are firmly anti-war,
02:23:35 --> 02:23:38 because we also know that the Republicans are claiming the anti-war mantle,
02:23:38 --> 02:23:40 despite them lying about it.
02:23:42 --> 02:23:48 Not just anti-war, but also, again, pro-peace solutions. There's an entire world
02:23:48 --> 02:23:53 and universe waiting for us where we are living in prosperity together.
02:23:54 --> 02:23:58 Because at the end of the day, if you're, again, a grunt working-class person
02:23:58 --> 02:24:04 in Iran, in the Middle East, in South America, you know, in Senegal,
02:24:05 --> 02:24:12 we have more in common with this corrupt billionaire takeover that is being
02:24:12 --> 02:24:13 exercised through these wars.
02:24:14 --> 02:24:18 And so I really firmly believe that there is a prosperous future that the progressive
02:24:18 --> 02:24:21 movement can usher in if we get serious about building our bench rather than
02:24:21 --> 02:24:25 constantly playing defense with, again, like you say, these jokers that keep
02:24:25 --> 02:24:27 rigging the rules in their favor.
02:24:28 --> 02:24:30 All right. So that leads into my final challenge.
02:24:31 --> 02:24:34 Finish this sentence, I have hope because.
02:24:36 --> 02:24:39 I have hope because.
02:24:40 --> 02:24:48 From incredible, strong ancestors, many of us do, who survived the impossible,
02:24:48 --> 02:24:54 and have therefore taught me that what feels impossible is actually possible.
02:24:54 --> 02:25:00 And I have hope because I know that in every pocket of this world that is staunchly
02:25:00 --> 02:25:05 against us, there are people that are doing little things to help each other,
02:25:05 --> 02:25:08 not just survive, but to thrive. Yeah.
02:25:09 --> 02:25:18 So Pamela Campos Palma, thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciated the conversation.
02:25:18 --> 02:25:23 You kind of got my mind going. And when my mind going, my mouth tends to follow.
02:25:23 --> 02:25:27 So I apologize for stretching out the interview longer because I was talking,
02:25:27 --> 02:25:29 but I really enjoyed our dialogue.
02:25:29 --> 02:25:32 If people want to dialogue with you further, how can they do that?
02:25:33 --> 02:25:40 Sure. I mean, people can find me on Twitter, still, or Blue Sky, PAMCP, PAMCP SIO.
02:25:41 --> 02:25:46 I love hearing from different folks, so just at me, and I'll respond.
02:25:47 --> 02:25:50 Okay. And do you have like a website or anything like that too, or?
02:25:51 --> 02:25:54 Yeah, just PAMCP.com. Okay.
02:25:55 --> 02:26:00 All right. Well, again, I greatly appreciate you, Pamela, coming on and having this discussion.
02:26:01 --> 02:26:04 One of the rules that I have is that once you have been on the show,
02:26:04 --> 02:26:06 you have an open invitation to come back.
02:26:06 --> 02:26:10 So if there's something pressing, you decide you want to write a book,
02:26:10 --> 02:26:15 you want to run for office, whatever, whatever, you know, as the old folks say,
02:26:15 --> 02:26:21 puts the bee in the bonnet, feel free to come back and we'll get you back on.
02:26:21 --> 02:26:25 But again, I really appreciated the conversation we had today. Thank you.
02:26:25 --> 02:26:30 Thank you. Thank you so much. All right, guys. And we're going to catch y'all on the other side.
02:26:42 --> 02:26:50 We are back. So I want to thank Dr. Erica Wattley, my enthusiastic,
02:26:50 --> 02:26:53 encouraging friend for coming on the show.
02:26:54 --> 02:26:56 I want to thank Victoria Hetherington.
02:26:57 --> 02:27:01 So, so glad that we were able to get this interview going because I've been
02:27:01 --> 02:27:06 wanting to talk about her book, The Friend Machine, for a long time and very,
02:27:06 --> 02:27:10 very engaging conversation. I enjoyed it very much.
02:27:10 --> 02:27:14 Look forward to her further work on this subject.
02:27:15 --> 02:27:18 And for Pamela Campos-Palma.
02:27:21 --> 02:27:27 Who is really, really a true warrior, not in the sense of being a former veteran.
02:27:28 --> 02:27:31 Like, you can't say former veteran. That's kind of redundant.
02:27:31 --> 02:27:37 Veteran of our armed services, but she is also proving to be a fighter and a
02:27:37 --> 02:27:42 veteran for civil rights and political power. in this country.
02:27:42 --> 02:27:47 Amazing, amazing conversations. And I'm really, really honored to have a platform,
02:27:48 --> 02:27:51 where I could talk to people like that.
02:27:51 --> 02:27:54 And I hope that you enjoyed those conversations.
02:27:56 --> 02:28:02 A couple of thoughts before I go. One, so you remember they had this White House
02:28:02 --> 02:28:08 correspondence dinner earlier this year, and it got basically disrupted and canceled,
02:28:09 --> 02:28:13 because a man got past security and,
02:28:14 --> 02:28:17 basically stated his goal was to assassinate President Trump.
02:28:19 --> 02:28:25 And there was some talk about whether they would wait till next year to do it
02:28:25 --> 02:28:32 or do it again, President Trump, for whatever reason, because he had never been the one since Obama,
02:28:33 --> 02:28:36 called him out when he was just Citizen Trump.
02:28:39 --> 02:28:41 And, you know, during his first term,
02:28:41 --> 02:28:46 he never went to one, but he seemed hell-bent on attending this year.
02:28:47 --> 02:28:50 And so he even said, we need to have it at the White House and blah,
02:28:50 --> 02:28:55 blah. And that kind of defeats the purpose of the White House Correspondents' Dinner.
02:28:57 --> 02:29:04 He insisted and the leadership of the organization capitulated and they had another one.
02:29:05 --> 02:29:07 And I mean, that's my commentary.
02:29:08 --> 02:29:09 You capitulate it.
02:29:11 --> 02:29:17 The White House Correspondents Association is supposed to be a reminder that,
02:29:18 --> 02:29:24 the press is the unofficial for for stake of government, that they're independent,
02:29:24 --> 02:29:28 that they shouldn't care if the president likes them or not,
02:29:28 --> 02:29:33 or if any other government official likes them or not, they're there to report what happens.
02:29:34 --> 02:29:40 And some even have the latitude and the ability to commentate on what happens.
02:29:41 --> 02:29:49 And, you know, to give the impression that you're trying to please the president,
02:29:49 --> 02:29:52 goes against everything that the organization is supposed to stand for.
02:29:52 --> 02:29:59 Now, I'm not a member, never have been, but I have been a reporter at one time in my life.
02:29:59 --> 02:30:07 I have been a member of the press. And so my concept of independence is offended,
02:30:08 --> 02:30:11 by them even having the dinner. It doesn't matter what he said.
02:30:11 --> 02:30:15 I mean, he tried to tell some jokes, all that stuff. It's fine.
02:30:15 --> 02:30:19 I mean, you know, not every president is great at that.
02:30:20 --> 02:30:27 You know, Donald Trump is evil for his own reasons, primarily greed and adverse and vengeance.
02:30:28 --> 02:30:35 But, you know, it's a shame that they even honored the request,
02:30:36 --> 02:30:39 you know, to appease him to have this dinner.
02:30:39 --> 02:30:46 It just, you know, and at some point in time, people in leadership need to pay
02:30:46 --> 02:30:50 attention to what the citizens are saying.
02:30:52 --> 02:30:57 You know, the majority of the citizens, the ones that are not in the cult or,
02:30:58 --> 02:31:00 super fandom or whatever term
02:31:00 --> 02:31:05 you want to use, average ordinary American citizens are tired of the show.
02:31:06 --> 02:31:12 And it would not hurt you to look the president in the eye and say,
02:31:12 --> 02:31:19 no, because for the other 40, let's see, he was 45 and 47.
02:31:20 --> 02:31:28 And another 45 other presidents, 44 other presidents that serve,
02:31:29 --> 02:31:31 the press has been able to say no.
02:31:32 --> 02:31:38 I don't know why this one is so magical. I don't know why we have people that
02:31:38 --> 02:31:42 exist that don't understand what the concept of leadership is,
02:31:43 --> 02:31:45 which is one of the main reasons why I had Dr.
02:31:45 --> 02:31:52 Wiley come on, And other people that do that kind of coaching and,
02:31:53 --> 02:31:58 you know, have had some experience like Betsy Hodges and Chastity Wells and,
02:31:58 --> 02:32:04 those people who have actually served in office and had to make tough decisions.
02:32:05 --> 02:32:11 And had to tell people no or had to have people tell them no when they wanted to do something, right,
02:32:13 --> 02:32:15 within the bounds of the process.
02:32:16 --> 02:32:22 So, you know, I don't know what it will take other than changes in leadership,
02:32:22 --> 02:32:26 but, you know, you're just changing pieces, right?
02:32:28 --> 02:32:35 I'm a fat dude, right? So me changing one T-shirt to another T-shirt is not
02:32:35 --> 02:32:37 going to make me less fat, right?
02:32:37 --> 02:32:44 One might make me look better than the other shirt, but I'm still fat, right?
02:32:45 --> 02:32:51 And so if you change leadership, that's not going to change the direction.
02:32:52 --> 02:32:56 You know, you're just changing people and you're keeping the same cowardice
02:32:56 --> 02:33:04 or keeping the same lack of fortitude, then there's not an improvement, right?
02:33:04 --> 02:33:06 But, you know.
02:33:08 --> 02:33:17 I just wish that we didn't have people in positions that don't know how to lead.
02:33:18 --> 02:33:23 Now, the other thing I want to talk about is Nancy Mace.
02:33:23 --> 02:33:28 Now, I have invited the congresswoman to come on the show.
02:33:28 --> 02:33:33 There was some indications that she would come on, express some interest,
02:33:33 --> 02:33:36 but then that never happened.
02:33:37 --> 02:33:45 Since then, she has finished fifth in the statewide race for governor of South Carolina.
02:33:45 --> 02:33:53 And she basically got told, no, don't even bother to run for Lindsey Graham's
02:33:53 --> 02:33:58 seat in the special election or in the general election.
02:33:59 --> 02:34:06 Nobody was interested in that. So I guess she decided that her swan song in
02:34:06 --> 02:34:13 American politics would be to try to abolish the Congressional Black Caucus.
02:34:14 --> 02:34:19 Now, I don't know. I can't remember how old Nancy Mesa is. I didn't research
02:34:19 --> 02:34:24 that before. I wanted to make this commentary. But I do know that the Congressional
02:34:24 --> 02:34:26 Black Caucus is older than she is.
02:34:28 --> 02:34:36 And I do know that the historical significance of the Black Caucus is more important
02:34:36 --> 02:34:39 than any historical significance she would have.
02:34:40 --> 02:34:45 The most historical thing she has done is that she was the first woman to graduate
02:34:45 --> 02:34:55 from the Citadel, which at that time was an all-male military academy in South Carolina.
02:34:56 --> 02:34:59 And, you know, she parlayed that to get elected to Congress and all that stuff.
02:34:59 --> 02:35:04 And at one point, she looked like she was on the McCain path.
02:35:05 --> 02:35:10 And then, of course, again, like a fortitude and leadership ability,
02:35:10 --> 02:35:14 she fell into the Donald Trump camp.
02:35:14 --> 02:35:18 And some of y'all may have never heard of her until she went after the first
02:35:18 --> 02:35:27 transgender congressperson, Sarah McBride, in trying to deny her bathroom access. Right.
02:35:28 --> 02:35:32 So, you know, I know she's been through a lot.
02:35:33 --> 02:35:39 And I know that she has a story to tell like any human being does.
02:35:40 --> 02:35:47 But you are part of a state that is almost a third African-American.
02:35:48 --> 02:35:54 Your colleague in Congress is one of the longest serving members in congressional history.
02:35:54 --> 02:36:00 He's definitely, I believe, in terms of all South Carolinians,
02:36:00 --> 02:36:05 I think he's the second longest, has served the second longest time behind Strom
02:36:05 --> 02:36:08 Thurmond in Congress, period.
02:36:10 --> 02:36:15 Want to insult him and the black South Carolinians and the black people all
02:36:15 --> 02:36:21 over the United States by saying that there shouldn't be an organization where
02:36:21 --> 02:36:25 the black members can gather and,
02:36:25 --> 02:36:27 create an agenda,
02:36:28 --> 02:36:30 to fight for black people all over this country.
02:36:32 --> 02:36:37 If her resolution sought a light of day and actually got passed,
02:36:37 --> 02:36:42 then that would also mean the Hispanic caucus would have to dissolve.
02:36:42 --> 02:36:47 The African, I mean, the Asian American Pacific Islander conference would have to dissolve.
02:36:48 --> 02:36:52 And, you know, there's some organizations within the Republican Party.
02:36:52 --> 02:36:58 I think there's a Black Republican caucus and they would have to dissolve.
02:36:59 --> 02:37:06 Right. And, you know, the whole argument is, you know, the typical dumb tropes
02:37:06 --> 02:37:11 of reverse racism or DEI is bad and, you know, that kind of thing.
02:37:12 --> 02:37:17 And it's like, that's a tone deaf position as well.
02:37:18 --> 02:37:23 When the former Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, looked at his Republican
02:37:23 --> 02:37:27 Party and said it looks like a country club compared to the Democrats,
02:37:27 --> 02:37:29 which look like America, he said that.
02:37:30 --> 02:37:40 And so your swan song in Congress, your last moment of glory is to double down
02:37:40 --> 02:37:42 on the country club aspect.
02:37:43 --> 02:37:47 I mean, you know, the insanity is what it is.
02:37:48 --> 02:37:52 I do not think that it is going to happen.
02:37:53 --> 02:37:58 I do think that the Congressional Black Caucus will still be in existence once
02:37:58 --> 02:38:01 Nancy Mason's term is up in January.
02:38:05 --> 02:38:09 Just the audacity. Just the gumption.
02:38:09 --> 02:38:14 You know, I really wish that these people would get over their mental illness
02:38:14 --> 02:38:21 of racism and use that fire and energy to make this country better, right? Right.
02:38:22 --> 02:38:29 If you, you know, I think it was some superhero that used to chastise the villains
02:38:29 --> 02:38:31 and flottings if you only used your power for good.
02:38:32 --> 02:38:38 Right. If you would just focus in on dealing with poverty.
02:38:40 --> 02:38:45 South Carolina has poverty issues. Right. Just like a lot of states.
02:38:45 --> 02:38:52 But, you know, you're in the South, so poverty is a real issue in the Southern states.
02:38:53 --> 02:38:57 Why not use your talent to eradicate that, right?
02:38:58 --> 02:39:03 Why not use your talent to make sure that every American citizen,
02:39:03 --> 02:39:07 especially in South Carolina, has health care access, right?
02:39:08 --> 02:39:12 Or just health care, period, right? Because even access will say,
02:39:12 --> 02:39:14 okay, well, you can get to the doctor.
02:39:15 --> 02:39:19 But can you pay for it, right? So let's just say health care.
02:39:20 --> 02:39:25 You know, make sure that job development is happening, infrastructure development.
02:39:25 --> 02:39:33 You know, we're in the 21st century, and we still don't have high-speed rail like other nations.
02:39:34 --> 02:39:39 We still depend on fossil fuels, right, instead of building.
02:39:42 --> 02:39:48 Electric car infrastructure. Hell, you could have a liquid natural gas infrastructure.
02:39:48 --> 02:39:51 I don't care, but we got to get away from,
02:39:53 --> 02:39:57 you know, and I guess natural gas would be considered a fossil fuel,
02:39:59 --> 02:40:04 you know, but it's a lot cleaner and cheaper than oil refining.
02:40:07 --> 02:40:12 You know, I just don't understand why people who don't really give a damn about
02:40:12 --> 02:40:19 people want to serve in a position that's of, for, and by the people.
02:40:20 --> 02:40:22 I never understood the logic in that.
02:40:23 --> 02:40:30 The fact that you want to destroy that. I don't get people who think that punishing,
02:40:31 --> 02:40:35 American citizens or people who want to be American citizens,
02:40:36 --> 02:40:38 why they want to serve in government.
02:40:39 --> 02:40:46 You know, you can be an anti-government faction and protest and all that stuff,
02:40:47 --> 02:40:51 you know, but you want to get in government to destroy it.
02:40:52 --> 02:40:59 I just don't get it. I really wish that people would not look at other human beings,
02:41:00 --> 02:41:07 and say that because of their affinity for certain people or their love for
02:41:07 --> 02:41:15 certain people or their looks or their ethnic heritage is the reason why gas is $4 or $5 a gallon.
02:41:17 --> 02:41:22 Why you don't have the best education system available to you,
02:41:22 --> 02:41:26 why you don't have the best healthcare system available to you, right?
02:41:26 --> 02:41:31 We brag about all these Nobel Prize laureates that American universities have
02:41:31 --> 02:41:36 produced, and we're not building on that.
02:41:38 --> 02:41:44 You know, we're slow walking the technology and the ideas that a lot of these
02:41:44 --> 02:41:51 people have, people that even just nominated for a Nobel Prize in the sciences.
02:41:52 --> 02:42:02 We were years ahead of the world for a number, I mean, almost two centuries.
02:42:04 --> 02:42:11 And, you know, and we've allowed everybody else to catch up and even pass us,
02:42:12 --> 02:42:19 because we're looking at somebody moving into our neighborhood and losing our mind.
02:42:21 --> 02:42:27 Our schools being more diverse. We don't want people to have access to public
02:42:27 --> 02:42:34 transportation because of some myth that crime is going to increase.
02:42:35 --> 02:42:41 You know? I'm sorry. I don't know too many burglars that use public transportation
02:42:41 --> 02:42:45 to get, you know, get away from a crime. I just...
02:42:50 --> 02:42:58 You know, I just, I don't understand how these myths get so powerful that they
02:42:58 --> 02:43:03 create people that run on those myths as platforms and they get elected.
02:43:04 --> 02:43:08 But fear is probably the most powerful drug in the United States.
02:43:09 --> 02:43:13 More dangerous than fentanyl, more dangerous than cocaine, more dangerous than,
02:43:14 --> 02:43:21 any other natural or synthetic drug that exists. this, fear is our problem.
02:43:22 --> 02:43:25 Because fear leads to racism. Fear leads to.
02:43:27 --> 02:43:32 You know, any other ism you want to, sexism, you know, whatever.
02:43:33 --> 02:43:36 Any other ism that's out there, fear is the cause of it.
02:43:37 --> 02:43:43 Islamophobia, xenophobia, right? Phobia is the Greek word for fear.
02:43:44 --> 02:43:50 And so, if we adhere to Franklin Delano Roosevelt's plea, that there's nothing
02:43:50 --> 02:43:56 to fear but fear itself, you know, that wasn't just a catchphrase to go into war.
02:43:58 --> 02:44:02 That's the way we should live our life. We shouldn't be afraid of anybody or anything.
02:44:03 --> 02:44:08 You know, we were just talking about a situation where we were worried about
02:44:08 --> 02:44:14 somebody losing their temper. And would I be able to handle that situation? I told him, yeah.
02:44:15 --> 02:44:19 You know, you can put your money on the other guy if you want to,
02:44:20 --> 02:44:22 but I'm going to handle it, right?
02:44:23 --> 02:44:26 I mean, that's the mindset you have to have.
02:44:28 --> 02:44:34 In playing sports, thinking you're going to get hurt. You can't go into a situation
02:44:34 --> 02:44:35 where you think you're going to die.
02:44:36 --> 02:44:42 You block those fears and do your job. Well, I don't want to do this because,
02:44:42 --> 02:44:46 you know, I don't want to pursue this idea because I may get fired.
02:44:47 --> 02:44:53 If you think the idea is going to make your company or make the nation better, then do it.
02:44:54 --> 02:45:02 But don't, don't use fear as a philosophy of leadership, right?
02:45:03 --> 02:45:11 Don't play on people's fears to attain your personal power or to attain personal wealth, right?
02:45:12 --> 02:45:15 Just be better than that.
02:45:16 --> 02:45:24 There is nothing that the Congressional Black Caucus would do to South Carolina
02:45:24 --> 02:45:26 that wouldn't be beneficial to them.
02:45:27 --> 02:45:30 There's no agenda that they're pushing. That's detrimental.
02:45:31 --> 02:45:38 But you, Nancy Mace, trying to abolish the Black Caucus, which by virtue of
02:45:38 --> 02:45:40 their position represents a third of your state.
02:45:43 --> 02:45:49 There's only one black representative. Well, no, there's two because you got
02:45:49 --> 02:45:53 Clyburn in the House and then you got Tim Scott in the Senate.
02:45:56 --> 02:46:00 So, you know, you're basically offending them. Now, Scott's not a member of
02:46:00 --> 02:46:02 the Black Caucus, but that's by choice.
02:46:03 --> 02:46:06 Nonetheless, he's a black man.
02:46:07 --> 02:46:12 Albeit he doesn't think racism exists in America but nonetheless he's a black
02:46:12 --> 02:46:20 man and you telling him that there can't even be a black Republican caucus is an insult,
02:46:23 --> 02:46:27 that's more detrimental promoting fear is more detrimental than anything that,
02:46:28 --> 02:46:35 any caucus that's looking out for their own people would do right and it's like to me,
02:46:36 --> 02:46:42 why is it bad for black folks to galvanize, but white folks have been galvanizing since the 1660s?
02:46:43 --> 02:46:49 You know, it's all about the power of fear or power fueled by fear.
02:46:50 --> 02:46:55 If we are going to survive another 250 years, that has to end.
02:46:56 --> 02:47:01 The concept of America should last forever and should be expanded worldwide,
02:47:02 --> 02:47:05 not by force, but by example.
02:47:06 --> 02:47:12 But it is human beings who don't fully grasp it or think they can manipulate
02:47:12 --> 02:47:16 it are the ones that hinder the progress of that concept.
02:47:19 --> 02:47:23 I'm hoping that when this election is over in November and,
02:47:25 --> 02:47:30 we have a new Congress in January that people like now, we know she's going
02:47:30 --> 02:47:35 to be gone, but the other people will be out of the mix as well.
02:47:35 --> 02:47:39 People like her and we will be electing people.
02:47:40 --> 02:47:43 We won't get rid of all of them because Randy Fiennes still exists.
02:47:44 --> 02:47:48 But, you know, we won't have Andy Biggs.
02:47:48 --> 02:47:54 We won't have a Mike Collins. We won't have, you know, there'll be a number of them that'll be gone.
02:47:55 --> 02:48:02 And I hope that that'll be a trend instead of a one election aberration.
02:48:03 --> 02:48:08 So I'm praying that, you know, we get to that point and we can start moving
02:48:08 --> 02:48:11 forward and stop entertaining this mess.
02:48:12 --> 02:48:16 And that those people who have fringe ideas are put back in the fringe.
02:48:18 --> 02:48:23 And, you know, it's all right to take a radical concept and try to see if we can work it in.
02:48:24 --> 02:48:29 That's positive. But this fear-based stuff, just got to go.
02:48:30 --> 02:48:35 Anyway, that's all I got. I, you know, I just had to say it.
02:48:35 --> 02:48:37 I haven't heard anybody else say anything about it.
02:48:40 --> 02:48:45 If we're going to make it, if we're going to get better, then we got to stop
02:48:45 --> 02:48:46 being afraid of each other.
02:48:47 --> 02:48:52 Got to embrace people and allow people to live their lives, right?
02:48:53 --> 02:48:58 As long as it's not causing harm, as long as it's not doing any damage,
02:48:59 --> 02:49:00 let people live their lives.
02:49:01 --> 02:49:07 But if your lifestyle is racism, I guess I have to draw the line there.
02:49:08 --> 02:49:11 If your lifestyle is hate, you have to draw the line there.
02:49:12 --> 02:49:15 Because even if you tolerate people, that's an act of love.
02:49:16 --> 02:49:22 And you may disagree with me, but I don't give you the latitude to hate me.
02:49:23 --> 02:49:25 Especially if you're asking me to vote for you.
02:49:26 --> 02:49:30 That's that happening. So anyway, like I said, that's all I got.
02:49:31 --> 02:49:33 Thank you all for listening. Until next time.