Looking in the Mirror: Self-Reflection, Accountability, and the Systems That Shape Us

speaker-1: Mm. ⁓ Welcome back to Rooted in Rising, everyone, the podcast where we talk about real things, have real conversations with real people, and really are rooted in growth and healing. Today I am super excited to have my wonderful guest, Dr. Jeremy Hollander, with me today, an Antioch University graduate like myself, and who is just absolutely amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Hollander, for being here. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. speaker-1: Absolutely. So a little bit about Dr. Hollander. He is an educator, a scholar, an advocate, ⁓ works in ⁓ trying to dismantle systemic inequalities, is a veteran, folks, and is committed to self-reflection and accountability. Dr. Hollander, welcome, welcome, welcome. ⁓ and I always like to start by ⁓ letting our audience know. who you are and who you are behind the credentials. So tell us a little bit about yourself, kind of what you do, and and ⁓ things like that. speaker-0: Is it okay if I start with is when I'm meeting with clients, I do like the consult and I always have like a thirty second is okay if I start with I always start with ⁓ I was a high school dad and and so then I joined the military afterwards, ⁓ became a Navy hospital corpsman and ⁓ served twelve years. I usually start with that because it highlights that I you know, I was in EMT, s ⁓ worked in Oakland for a little a little bit, ⁓ and then ⁓ worked speaker-1: Do it. Do your thing. speaker-0: clinical ⁓ medicine and also field medicine. I did serve mostly with Marine Corps units. ⁓ and then after ⁓ a tour in Iraq in two thousand three, part of that invasion, ⁓ I was medically retired. and I spent a year sort of self destructively figuring things out and spent a period of time ⁓ as a practicing Buddhist, ⁓ lived homeless for a little bit and ⁓ then started to kind of redefine my life after getting connected to habitat restoration, which is a a form of ecotherapy that I that I really just deeply connected to. And that led to becoming a therapist and that led to me be being here. ⁓ and so that's me in an in a nutshell. speaker-1: I love that. I love that. If could you explain a little bit about what what did you say? Hab habitat restoration. There we go. Yeah, tell us a little bit about that. speaker-0: Restorations, yeah. Yeah, so it's it's interesting. ⁓ habitat restoration is focused on like y we live in Snowmish County and there's a lot of d ⁓ urban development, ⁓ especially in King County around Seattle and so on. ⁓ a lot of disruptive soil. and so what happens is a lot of times invasive like we we would call them weeds, invasive species would take root. They'll o over overgrow out compete native plants and then just push everything out creating monocultures and habitat restoration is a an act of of r restoration ⁓ in kind of some ways restorative justice because we're hoping to kind of restore the land to what it was before ⁓ human development. so removing invasive species, installing native plants ⁓ and and helping to re reintroduce ⁓ biodiversity to to ecosystems. speaker-1: That's beautiful. And and I I say this in jest, but I I will not even talk to you about my front yard right now and how just look at it. I mean, it's just a sad little thing. It's so sad. The sun beams on it and it I nothing is growing there, but you know, ⁓ I may talk to you about just restoring the grass. Right. Restoring the grass for a second. ⁓ geez. Well, you know, thank you for being here. Thank you for what you do and who you are. That's totally okay. You know what? ⁓ like I I I tell folks, my cat will make an appearance at some point. She wherever she I don't know where she is. Have no idea. But ⁓ you talked a little bit about, you know, your your background and sort of what led you here. and the the title of today's episode is Looking in the Mirror, Self Reflection, Accountability and the Systems That Shape Us. And I think this is just gonna be a really, really powerful discussion. And ⁓ I can't wait for for folks to hear ⁓ what you have to say and and your own journey in self-reflection because I think this is something we might be lacking just as a as an overall country right now, right? ⁓ that self-reflection and and that looking inward and and trying to figure out who we are and how we can restore and repair just you know with one another, repair the earth and what have you. ⁓ was there a defining moment for you that changed how you viewed systems of power and and inequality and and got you to a place of self reflection? speaker-0: I would yes. And so it's it's it's kind kind of like a s stepping stone moment, I guess. w in the military for twelve years. What's really interesting is ⁓ you know it's coming up ⁓ in in the nineties, and you can see ⁓ police brutality, especially with Rodney King, and the aftermath of of that, how those those police officers ⁓ How it happened. ⁓ and you can see the the just the gross inequality there and how people are treated. being in the military, please forgive me for ⁓ the dog in the background. speaker-1: That's all right. That's all right. Dog's got something to say. ⁓ speaker-0: Good great timing. ⁓ Everyone's voice should be heard, right? Yeah. speaker-1: Everyone's voice. Yes. Can't understand, but should be heard. Should be heard. speaker-0: Sure. thank you. And but it was r what was really interesting for me is ⁓ being in the military, ⁓ Bremerton at the naval hospital there working getting off work one night and there's two ⁓ military police ⁓ vehicles who pulled over a friend of mine, ⁓ colleague, who just happened to be black. And so they they had to have two cars there with them. If it were me, it would have been just one person if I had gotten pulled over. And so I can see the ⁓ well, I can see the inequality with that as well. ⁓ I served on a ship. I didn't serve on a ship. I was there for like ten days as we floated from San Diego to ⁓ San Francisco. and on that vessel I I I could see the segregation, the self segregation that com you know, different communities, ⁓ the Filipino community and so on. speaker-1: With each other. speaker-0: Yes. And so always conscious of the ⁓ increasingly becoming conscious of ⁓ the role of racism in in the United States. But I was just scratching the surface. ⁓ fast forward a little bit and then ⁓ coming to the invasion in Iraq, ⁓ that was the moment for me. ⁓ because there you can see imperialism ⁓ in force, colonialism in force and just the the ⁓ the human wreckage that ⁓ that stays with me today. And it's ⁓ it reformed my moral bearing and it it drastically changed the course of my life. and ⁓ so i I guess that defining moment is a obligation to honor the memory of those who who no longer have a voice and who would otherwise be forgotten. ⁓ and that's why I do what I do. speaker-1: And thank you for what you do. And I you know and I will say as a person who, you know, identifies as as black and and I made the stroke before blackish because I I'm black and Filipino, ⁓ it you know, allies matter and and ⁓ breaking I think that color line and having these really I I wanna say they're difficult. They are difficult conversations, ⁓ that that all of the sides have to come at and and approach and really work through. And so ⁓ While these are very just, you know, like heinous acts and individuals have definitely suffered and are still suffering, you know, I I I extend my thanks to you for for doing this work and for being compassionate and, you know, taking the time to learn about all these different communities and and sort of how these inequalities come to the surface. And ⁓ you know, we we we often hear words like systemic oppression and privilege and colonialism and imperialism, like you said, and institutional inequal ⁓ inequality. I'll learn to speak today. ⁓ for many people those terms feel really overwhelming or threatening. But my question is like if we were to deconstruct that for a second, what do we actually mean by systems? What are what are what are these systems? What is systemic oppression? What is what does this mean? speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ and i I guess there's a lot of answers to this. ⁓ I always because it came up in in in medicine, ⁓ the first system I became conscious of was the human the body systems. ⁓ all the systems that make us who we are, ⁓ the circulatory system, nervous system, and so on and so forth. But we have an internal system and we have external systems as well. Our families are systems, ⁓ our our schools are systems, our classrooms are ⁓ and so on and so forth. And so really when we're talking about systems, to my understanding, it's just this the quality of interactions, the patterns that repeat within society. and as we're talking about colonialism or imperialism, capitalism and and so on, racism, ⁓ these are the patterns of pain that have been repeated generation after generation after generation by people in power. And so when we're talking about that, it's it's it is big. And it is overwhelming and it is scary. And so then I guess it's important just to like you're like you're talking about, really just breaking it down so that we can start to you know this is where we begin to see our part in the big picture. And it it does start with us. And so it it ⁓ I'm rambling. I feel like I'm rambling. speaker-1: ⁓ no, no, no. This is great. No, no, no. speaker-0: It's just it just feels like i we do have to start with ourselves first and then we can really start to pay attention to the bigger stuff. But if we don't understand the fact that we're participating in systems of repression, especially as a member of the white delegation, ⁓ then how in the h hell can I have conversations? And earlier we were talking about having the same conversations over and over again. ⁓ and that's something I've experienced in in being in a liberal arts education ⁓ from that institution. And it's like We're having the same conversations over members of the white delegation. My apologies for repeating that. But we're patting ourselves on the back because we're so liberally minded. And to me that's a danger. ⁓ because because we're not we're too busy speaker-1: Same damn conversation. ⁓ Talking about it. Yeah, I feel yeah. Yeah. And not doing anything about it. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. To use a South Park reference we're s we're too busy smelling our own our our own farts with our smugness. ⁓ thinking we're we're all these great people, but we're really just part of the problem. speaker-1: ⁓ Yeah. And you know, I couldn't agree more. And I think it it goes with all sides, right? We we are all both actively and I think inactively reinforcing this this systemic oppression. And I I don't think it necessarily comes from one one side alone. I but I I I also do think that there is there are different levels of accountability. Yes. ⁓ you know, so I I don't give any of us an out when it comes to this. And and it is a really hard conversation to broach, ⁓ especially when ⁓ you know, like a me as a a a woman and a person of color, ⁓ my experiences are are very different from like yourself, as you say, like of the of the white delegation, right? And at the same time, th there are shared themes, whether they're connected by ⁓ you know, oppression or prejudice and what have you that we do share just as humans and we need to talk about those. Yeah. ⁓ but you said something that ⁓ was really interesting, you know, w talking about ⁓ that accountability and it starts with us reflecting and knowing that we are part of the problem. And I think One of the issues that I have run into is trying to explain systemic inequality to folks, ⁓ without them feeling as if I'm blaming them or as if they're being blamed for all the issues. How how can we help people understand systemic equality without them victimizing themselves and saying, Well, yeah, I didn't it wasn't me, I didn't contribute the problem. speaker-0: As you asked the question, there's like a thousand different voices. Part of me is like angry. And one, we need to call people out, and you know, that sort of thing, but that's a problem, right? Because that only reinforces the barriers that already exist. And so so then how do we break that break that down? And I always come back to this is one of the great things about our our our field ⁓ in counseling psychology. speaker-1: All right. speaker-0: Or psychology, the idea of unconditional positive regard is so massively important. ⁓ because what's really interesting about that is a lot of times therapists look at it as like that's their professional veneer. You know, they put that mask on and here's my client, and I'm thinking the best of my client. And then we, you know, and then we, you know, are outside of the office and then we take the veneer off, and then we're just normal people again. But The the practice of unconditional positive regard has to start with us first before it starts with anybody else. ⁓ we have to care enough about ourselves to push ourselves to learn about who we are and the lessons that we've learned in our life. And then once we're able to do that, then it's like nothing can touch us, right? And all the stuff, all the, you know, the insults, the da da da, whatever they might be, or the accusations ⁓ or the connections to our our parts in the in the big systems. they're they're no longer a threat because we're grounded with who we are. ⁓ I mean i I I don't know. Does that make any sense? Because it it feels like it starts there and then once we're cool with ourselves then we can be cool with everything else and start to really build and grow from from that point. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I I also think too, you know, ⁓ that like the concept of being cool with yourself. ⁓ I think that that sometimes that there are people that are too cool with themselves. Sure. For sure. Which is like, I think the lesson here is also always remain teachable. Yes. But I think with that, I think perhaps that there are people that have a false sense of being cool with themselves, right? There's this sort of speaker-0: For sh. speaker-1: inherent unrest. And I think those are the folks that I ⁓ I I think I I really want to speak to where You know, I think it's being called out is very hard. I've been called out on several things and I'm like, ugh, okay. And and I think it's what you do with that information and how you choose to move forward, right? And this is a very, very sensitive, sometimes even taboo subject, talking about inequality, because there are some people that just don't believe that this exists. And ⁓ that's really hard, right? It's really hard for for us as people of of color. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ for us as marginalized groups, for allies, it's hard for us to penetrate that that sort of thought box and have those real educational groundbreaking conversations because I think the precursor to that is the buy-in. And I think that's ⁓ you know that's been a struggle of mine ⁓ outside of the constant feeling of having to just or need to educate people and and the pure exhaustion, you know, from all of it. But understanding in that self-reflection, in that being cool with yourself, ⁓ this sort of leads to my my next sort of thought here. The recognition that there are certain groups that benefit from these systemic inequalities. ⁓ but Are also experiencing hardships. Like I I we have to sort of balance those two things, right? I I've I can't even tell you this is a real life example. I've had someone that says, you know, had said to me, you know, Dr. Max, ⁓ I I totally understand what you're going through because, you know, as a black person, because I grew up poor. And I'm like, whoa, hold up, whoa, ⁓ cool it there. ⁓ they're not inherently the same and they are both hardships. Okay. They're both and and being black is not a hardship. However, what can come with being black can be. Those experiences can be. So how how do we help someone recognize? And maybe how have you helped? How did you see this yourself? Your own self-reflection? What is what what did that look like? Because I'm sure that was that's that's hard. speaker-0: And it was years in in in the kind of wrestling with that ⁓ that dichotomy, right? And ⁓ a family member once said, is when it was it was w as the the the social vernacular started to change ⁓ to the idea of privilege, ⁓ white privilege. And ⁓ family member ⁓ said to me, It's like, Well, you know, we grew up poor and ⁓ and we don't have any privileges and all this other stuff. ⁓ and there's this lack of Because of those lived realities or those lived experiences, we we have a blind spot. And because all we're focusing on in that regard is our own suffering and we're not conscious of other people's suffering. And if for some folks it feels like they just don't have the capacity for that understanding of other people's suffering. So they see themselves as on an equal playing field because they live in one quality of oppression. and it and it's tr it's true. It's there. That's oppression. And and so it and So there it is. but it's so much bigger than that. And ⁓ so as I was sitting with that person's ⁓ statement, and as we're having smug conversations in in school and just interacting with folks and paying attention, when it came time for me to earn this doctorate, ⁓ my my dissertation was a critical autoethnography, which was an evaluation of myself and the systems, all the lessons that I've learned, how I've privileged from ⁓ From systemic oppression, how I've been harmed by it, and just how I've come to be who I am today. So it really it it it it tasked me to dissect all the qualities that make me who I am, all the qualities that I see as favorable and all the ones that I don't, and everything in between. And it it formed it helped me form a new relationship with myself. And really when I talk about being cool with oneself. That's what it you know, it's like having this complete understanding of who we are from a critical perspective. We can't we can't be all like inflating our egos and like no, it's it's like writing that ⁓ aut ⁓ autobiography, you know, it's like they just write the the narrative as they see fit. And yeah, it's it's never really authentic, you know. And yeah, and so I wanted to be brudally honest with myself through through that process. And I think that's what it boils down to is we have to be able to one acknowledge our pain, but also we have to look at how our pain contributes to the pain of others. ⁓ yeah. And it's it's interesting because there's this di dichotomy. I think ⁓ Paolo ⁓ I always I always murder his last name. ⁓ Paolo Ferreri. I had this ⁓ did discuss this dichotomy between the oppressor and the oppressed and as he's having this this dialogue There's something that really stood out to me, and it was one that the oppressor can never be seen as human because they're evil in in effect. ⁓ and the oppressed are never seen as human because they're seen as lesser than by the oppressor. And it it that led to this idea that, well, there's a pathology here, ⁓ the perpetrator. The pathology of the perpetrator, there's an illness that the the that the oppressor is is ⁓ I'm sorry. As I start to say this, I recognize that this we're kind of like teetering on ⁓ a sensitive ⁓ topic in this regard. speaker-1: That's okay. speaker-0: And this is where accountability comes in because in our systems of oppression, I've been harmed by that. But it's not about victimizing myself or saying, ⁓ poor poor me. ⁓ I once I'm conscious of and this this is true for psychology, right? Once we're conscious of the the the behavioral pattern, then we need to take steps to fix it. So we go to the root cause of it and then we work on the interventions that that make a difference. And ⁓ I feel like I'm I'm veering off topic, but from my perspective, ⁓ in our pain, we're hurting others and we're not conscious of the root cause of the issue. And that is the systemic oppression. Those are the patterns of behavior that are hurting people generation after generation after generation. And if we look at ⁓ politics today, and please forgive me for for going off on a tangent, ⁓ we can see our elected officials speaker-1: No no no. speaker-0: Who are grossly pathologized, who are grossly sick, and they don't see it that way. But the problem is, is that their pathologies are hurting everybody else. And so it it's not so much of looking at people as good or bad or even and I I feel like this is important coming back to unconditional positive regard because if once we see things for as it really is, we look at the the systemic pathologies, ⁓ then we can come up with community based interventions speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: That really help solve the problem and stop having the same conversations over and over again. Exactly. Fixed the ish. speaker-1: Exactly. Exactly. You know what? I don't think you were tangential at all. I think it really but but I I really think just your your your working experience in just this conversation shows the complexity of the work that is being done, needs to be done, should have been done. Should have been. ⁓ definitely should have been done, right? Because you're absolutely right. Like you also can be harmed by this, right? Especially if ⁓ you have you have not deliberately, right? And and I I d I don't even know that I'm convinced by deliberately, not deliberately, whatever, but you know, you're not you haven't come from a deliberate model of like racism or oppression and and putting that out there in a in a in an overt way. But some of the messaging, some of the things that you see, I mean, we are all affected by everything that goes around. around us. We're affected by education. We're affected by the interactions that we have with people. We're affected by, you know, financial institutions. We're affected by ⁓ different psychological schools of thought and their inclusion and exclusion. And so I think you're you're spot on in self-reflection actually requires pre-work. And what requires pre-work speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It requires work work, it requires postwork. Like this is a whole longitudinal study that needs to happen, I think, at the individual level, in a in a like a dyadic way. And then also, you know, we expand that to like the masses. And to your point, I think I'm trying to wrap my mind around my my thoughts with this one. We keep having educational conversations and we're not having w we we are lacking action steps even at at the micro level. Right. So that's I think that is where harm continues, right? It's it's not that we are making zero effort or that those of us who even even having those same conversations doesn't necessarily mean it's inherently bad, but it's also not necessarily going anywhere if we're all preaching to each other. And the one thing I know and that I've experienced about the the the our community in in like education and as clinicians is sometimes we talk to each other as opposed to putting that information out there and leading with an action item a a call to action and it's super frustrating. speaker-0: It's super frustrating and it feels like what you're touching base on is that the the one of the core problems, one of the core challenges that we're facing, it's how embedded we are in in within the system of oppression. It's like you know, in the academic space, ⁓ we're we're educators and so then we're teaching students and then we hold them to these academic rigors, ⁓ the idea of academic rigor, while we may or may not be following up on our own, yeah, anyway. So there's there might be some hypocrisies there. But yeah, the idea is the academic rigor, where the shit, excuse my language, is that coming from? It's coming from systemic oppression. And we're defining ourselves based off of the oppressor's definition of who we're supposed to be. And even though we get and my apologies for going off on a tangent again, but even though we have letters behind our names, that's effectively showing up for the oppressor. And in in my mind, that's Part of the problem and it's like we gotta start we gotta start finding a way to break that down and define things for ourselves because we're just trying we're just still playing the game. And ⁓ anyway, my apologies for for for going off on that tangent, but it still s like speaker-1: Please don't apologize because I think you're speaking to so many points because I I I think I you know, I one hundred percent agree with this, especially when there is a mass underrepresentation of people of color in our field doing our work. You know, it's at the top of their chair. I can tell you I I definitely and I'm I I will call myself out on this, I know that ⁓ while I am affected and I have ⁓ experienced being affected by systems of oppression. On the opposite side, I also know that being situated where I am, I am very privileged. And and I want to acknowledge that too, right? So ⁓ white people can be hurt by systems of oppression, and people of color can also experience privilege. And and so it's a complicated ⁓ arcane ball of fun, as Leslie Nope would say in in Parks and Wreck. ⁓ and and It's I think it's it's nasty to untangle. speaker-0: It's nasty to entangle and and it really does come back to again the unconditional positive regard piece because this is, you know, one of the one of the what what I find fascinating about this, ⁓ as I'm working with clients, one of the pervasive lessons I've learned from each of my clients is how much pain has been caused by how they've been treated by other people. And a lot of the messaging that we inherit ⁓ generation after generation is This criticism, the critique, the anger, the frustration, the voicelessness. ⁓ you know, we're we don't we talk about love, but we're a culture that's defined by violence. Yes. And human suffering. And and we're enacting that in almost every quality. If someone if someone isn't wearing the right clothes on a day, it's like there's a critique, you know. We were talking about the military experience and how critical that. that community can be and dehumanizing in so many realms. And so then all of a sudden the clients that we're working with there they have this internalized, you know, they've internalized it all. And that's how they view themselves. Yeah. So then okay. So how do we break that down? How we break down that big ball of fun. And we really do have to start with love and empathy. And in in untangling the messaging and rewriting the the the narratives so that we can empower oursel our ourselves to do things differently. And that's one of the frustrating qualities about this work because I mean, I wanna see I want to see systemic oppression burn like period, point blank. And I'm not afraid to say that in any way, shape or form. But I also recognize that it's probably not going to happen in my lifetime. And that's heartbreaking, but it does have to start somewhere. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, even even being a person who ⁓ you know, represents, you know, the the BIPOC, you know, community, ⁓ and the work that I do and and trying to be ⁓ representation, you know, or or one person, you know, representation of the field. There's I don't think I'll see it in my lifetime, you know, either. And and we're we're working on parallels, just trying to do work maybe from from different angles of the boat and and we need that, right? But talk to ⁓ to talk to me, talk to us about some of the experiences in your own self-reflection about how ⁓ these systems harm these marginalized groups. So harm communities of color, harm disabled communities, ⁓ you know, individuals in the LGBTQ plus community, immigrants, anyone that's been othered. What have you seen? What have you experienced? How has that impacted you? And how has that contributed to your your own self-reflection and and and growth? speaker-0: It's a complicated question. but it's i I mean it's an important question and speaker-1: Sorry, I do that. speaker-0: I at the moment I'm reflecting on hundreds of years of systemic racism and the industry of enslavement of the black community and ⁓ colonialism and how many scores of people who have been murdered and displaced and ⁓ I'll I'll call it deculturalized. and Through the eras, ⁓ as the United States has grown, ⁓ it's interesting because post civil rights movement, right? ⁓ we feel like, ⁓ we went through a period where we were like, I don't see color. Everything's fine and dandy, everything's good to go. And ⁓ speaker-1: That colour blindness is a trip. speaker-0: It's a trip. And but at the core of all of that, through the legacies of pain that ⁓ that systems of power have have my ancestors have caused, ⁓ and even I have in to some extent, has ⁓ has persisted because we've not held ourselves accountable to the pains that have been caused. And we're afraid to hold ourselves accountable now. And we see that today as they roll back ⁓ all the contributions from the black community just as one example. And they're they're removing names from lists. They're removing contributions. They're removing notable figures from our our parks. You you they're just trying to erase black history and and all the contributions the black community has made in building this country and what it is today and all the things that we see great. We have stolen speaker-1: History. speaker-0: cultural identity ⁓ from the black community. We've embodied, we've taken from the black community in so many different ways and made it our own. and so as we talk about like how have we harmed ⁓ communities of color, we've harmed them by invalidating, by stealing, by ⁓ ignoring, ⁓ minimizing, actually physically hurting folks. ⁓ and we've never once held ourselves accountable. And that's That's a lasting legacy of pain that continues because we're hiding from our our truth. speaker-1: Yeah. And you know, even historically and I can, you know, I can speak just a little bit, you know, to to the the the black experience and and black people in this country, you know, ⁓ coming over on on slave ships and ⁓ having our our our names changed, our religion changed, you know, we were not we we we were not ⁓ originally you know, ⁓ part of Christianity, right? and having our our culture stripped, like I said, our language stripped, the things that that made Africans proper Africans. So there's this, you know, ⁓ I've I've heard many a time, you know, if you don't like it here, go back to Africa. I'm like, I I've never been to Africa. And honestly it's come to the point where I think I have my my elevator speech for how to respond to that because it's like had you not dragged me and my ancestors out in the first place and displaced us and placed us in a place where where we also were unable to thrive, ⁓ maybe there'd be somewhere to go back to. But many blacks in this country are so displaced. And so we've had to create communities. I think that's one of the beautiful things about many marginalized groups. We We form community. So, you know, go going back to like conversation that we had about, you know, you saw like the Filipinos here and then like the blacks here. We we find each other collectively and and try and create safe spaces in in in in perceived and real dangerous times. And I think that's that is a beautiful aspect of of our communities and at the same time. Right. ⁓ So much of our history has already been taken and we're seeing it now, where history is being undone, it is being rewritten, unwritten, wiped away. And I don't even know how to begin to describe that level of pain. ⁓ you know, we we were just getting caught up with with all the history that we thought we could find. And now we're right back into the same cycle of of just having it taken away again. And ⁓ I guess I'm I'm curious to as to your thoughts and and maybe from an educator standpoint, right? Because we're both educators, we're both professors, we we we both teach and we teach social justice. ⁓ what are some of the challenges in A, having to keep up a curriculum and and teaching materials that are up to date knowing that it's being simultaneously wiped away. ⁓ speaker-0: There's a a an active, you know, as we speak, there's an active measure of fear that's within the academic community because ⁓ especially within ⁓ the academic community ⁓ people of color. And it's like so as academics, I don't know, we might be on a list somewhere, you know, of dissenters or people who are unpatriotic or what you know, you know all that stuff. But again, it's like this is where white privilege ⁓ and also patriarchal ⁓ privilege ⁓ plays a role. ⁓ I don't have the same fears. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? And ⁓ where we start with that. And we start by well, and this is really interesting too, ⁓ because ⁓ I'm reminded of something Malcolm Malcolm X discussed, ⁓ the idea of the being afraid of the white liberal. ⁓ because we could talk a big game and we could say that we're in it for the right reasons. But then when it push comes to shove, we recede into the background. You know, we go back into our homes and we kind of like turn on the T V and increase our comfort level and we can forget about all this stuff. speaker-1: It's like a different level of the bystander effect, I think. speaker-0: I think so. Because it's like well, and I get it too, it's hard. But that's the point. That's the fucking point. Because people live with that difficulty every single day of their life. And so it's incumbent upon us. Did I use that word rightly? It feels like it's appropriate for us to to to ⁓ well remove our privileges and engage in the discomfort of the work and to make ourselves as vulnerable as every member of our community. So that we're sharing the load. And from my perspective, that's missing. We see that. And we actually saw that with ⁓ post ⁓ George Floyd and the uproar that happened and all that the activity that took place. But as as the the the pandemic w waged w waged on and and you know, as those th that fight waged on, we saw less and less members of the white community engage in in that dialogue in in creating change. And things went back to normal. And And we became complacent and that's again speaker-1: And complicit. And yes. Yes. And complicit. And and and I will also say I think in in the complicity complicity. It's a it's a word now, if it's not. I'm down, you know, I'm down. Okay, you know, ⁓ it's I I've only had one cup of coffee today. Yeah. It's it's rough. But i in that I think even marginalized groups, we became very tired. We we became fed up. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. speaker-1: ⁓ with with having to fight the fight. We're like, okay, everyone's giving up at this point. And you know, this is not to pl to to to point a finger at any one individual or any one group, but to say, I mean, this is an exhausting process. And I will tell you, as a person of color and an educated person, and a person who, you know, has friends in the, as you call it, the white delegation and and people across, you know, the the these these cultural realms. ⁓ You said something that I think is is going to sound or is sounding really scary to to white people, which is we've got to remove our privileges. speaker-0: Yeah. I mean it's terrifying. But I mean, ⁓ there's a book do I have it near me? ⁓ speaker-1: Your bookshelf looks like mine. I'm like, I don't even know. I've got it ⁓ all of mine tabbed out and it just is in it's insane. speaker-0: It's it's it's ⁓ it's it's it's titled Black Fatigue and it's talking about this very topic and the idea of the frustrations of living with d these pressures every single day and having the same conversations over and over again with members of the white delegation, and it becomes like this sort of like tell me your story so I can learn from you and it's ⁓ and it's damaging. speaker-1: I think also it's, you know, in my experience and and and and by no means am I speaking for everyone's experience, right? But tell me your story so that I can hear it and learn from you so I can also go back and not listen to it and do anything about it. speaker-0: Yeah. And that's why we have those same conversations over and over and over again. And as I'm learning, ⁓ how in the shit can I can I see that a problem exists and not work towards making a change in that regard. And that's where the accountability pe yeah, again, the accountability piece comes in because once we become conscious of something, it's our responsibility to work on it. speaker-1: Yeah. You know, I can tell you, so I I I teach CPR and ⁓ you know, I remember just before I had my first class, I was like, ⁓ man, like this you you try to memorize the stuff, right? Like you think back to your first day as a professor and you're just like, Okay, I got all my little lectures together, got my little powerpoints together, right? And all right, I'm just gonna remember day one, we're gonna talk about the syllabus. We're gonna talk about these things. I'm gonna hit these bullet points. Now I just run off script. I'm like, you can read, do your thing, it's uploaded. But when it comes to education, I I it's not lost on me ⁓ just the profound importance of what we do as clinicians, as what we do as educators. But I go back to my first real day, which was not so long ago being a CPR instructor. And once I got past ⁓ like my own ass about it. Right. When I was like, ⁓ God, it's so scary. I realized just how important and just how scary it was to make sure that I was teaching things correctly. Yeah. Right. and this idea of once we know about something, it is our responsibility, it is our duty to step in and actually show compassion, show grace, ⁓ intercede on the behalf of someone who may not be able to f fend for themselves. And you know, ironically enough, we we you know, we talk about ⁓ we we talk about how individuals can't be sued if they if they give CPR. But there's also the idea of like you don't you don't have to. I don't know why I would ever get credentialed to not give CPR unless, you know, they tell you to assess the situation, they tell you to make sure that the environment is safe. ⁓ because you also can't be the person, right? You have to put your mask on first. You have to make sure the environment is safe so that you can intervene, right? ⁓ and so we we and this idea that like we we're not held accountable if we if we intervene. But why would you ever want to, knowing that you have these skills, knowing that you have a platform, knowing that you have the ability to save someone's life, why would you not? speaker-0: It's an obligation. speaker-1: Yeah. But why would you not? Why would you not fulfill it? speaker-0: Yeah. and I have to say, I used to teach CPR too. speaker-1: So cool. ⁓ speaker-0: The more I learn from you, the more I appreciate that just that's so awesome. Wow. ⁓ but you're absolutely right though. Why wouldn't anyone? And it it comes to like fear, discomfort. Maybe we're sitting with our own biases that we're not owning up to, you know, because I actually I mean d these conversations come up. It's like I don't want to give C PR to that person because they're a homeless guy. You know, they're They're drunk and they're just gonna, you know, X, Y, or Z. And and it's just like that's a human being. speaker-1: Yes, that was someone's I I like to frame it this way. ⁓ that was and is someone's child. That was someone's child. I am someone's child. And to overlook that, right? To to to qualify individuals based on this very obscure uninformed mindset is is horribly frustrating. It's horribly frustrating. And I think it contributes to to pain. Also, just from a clinical standpoint, I think it contributes to things like PTSD and depression and anxiety and and the perpetuation of transgenerational trauma and and unhealed wounds. Because where do we go? What band-aid do we use? Because you know, ⁓ what what ointment do we put on an invisible wound? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And it's ⁓ speaker-0: That's a great metaphor, and please forgive me for cutting you off because that the idea of it being an invisible wound, you know, a wound itself would require a bandage, would require you know restorative care. And that's exactly what's missing. We're not healing the wound. speaker-1: Yeah. No. So two questions that are are are big, but I I think we need to at least start the conversation so we don't keep having the same old, same old conversations. I believe I'm I'm of the school of thought. If no one else is gonna do it, see there's someone's car alarm, so you're not gonna yeah, it's it's lovely. ⁓ if if if other people are not going to be the band aid and not gonna be the oint man, then we have to step in. We've gotta we we've gotta perform mental CPR. Yeah. And resuscitation. How can we? How can white people do it? How can marginalized groups do it? How how can we s support one another? And I mean really support one another without the onus being placed on any one group or several groups of individuals to to be the ones to teach, for it to fall on deaf ears, for it to ⁓ to go nowhere, for us to write these bills and these laws that no one has read. And no one will adhere to how do we, in effect, become the ointment? speaker-0: Yeah. And from from my perspective, at least how I've approached that question ⁓ with with my life is i it's interesting because ⁓ Some of the most important lessons I've learned, the most damaging, the most constructive and valuable, have been the lessons learned in the space between spaces. You know, we have the academic setting of class, you know, we're the lesson plan and everything that we're supposed to learn in that space. Great, we're learning that. But the how do we interact with each other? That's those are the memories that stay with me. You know, like especially the emotional realities of those interactions. The teacher that that talked down to me because I wasn't connecting with Dotson Two Plus Two, whatever that might have been. Someone who made me feel othered in some way, shape, or form, those lessons I carry with me today. ⁓ and so coming back to the question is how do we do this on a personal level, it's like we we model a different way of doing business. Like as I teach, I care more about ⁓ I care more about the lessons that someone's gonna to take with them that helps augment their personal professional practice, not necessarily I I don't care about when they turn their assignment in, you know. speaker-1: The same way, my students will tell you, I'm like, I don't care about deadlines. Just get it in by the end of the quarter. So I just get it done. speaker-0: I want to know how this improves the quality of your life. What lessons are you taking from this? And so we've we're as educators, we're changing the narrative in s in in even in small ways. And I think that modeling behavior of like we really can do things differently and how we interact with each other, the love and empathy, the unconditional positive regard in as part of our personal practice. I think those are the lessons that people are carried with them because those lessons being learned in the space between spaces. speaker-1: Yeah, the space between spaces. I think that is so beautiful. You know, I I ⁓ I had a ⁓ a podcast episode that talked about creativity. So my dooms ⁓ you know, doom scrolling your dreams and and talked about how the you know with with continued scrolling our brains just never come to that point of rest, right? And our our brains need a a sense of conclusion and in order to create, some of the best creative ideas come out of boredom. out of those space space spaces between spaces. And and I think that is where some of our best work too. I I one hundred percent wholeheartedly agree that some of our best work and some of the best community building can happen in those spaces, in those uncomfortable spaces, in those quiet spaces. ⁓ you know, not in the spaces that are necessarily the most ostensible or the most well known. ⁓ And and I think it's important that we bring that to the table, right? Because I neither you nor I can can solve for X and we definitely can't do it overnight, but we can make a small contribution, right? Like I can I can show, you know, based on my my education and all that, I I don't have to be whitewashed by by the patriarchy, and I don't have to teach. in in ways that are insensitive to my students, right? So I can be a profound woman of color educator and all of that and still and not lose the cultural sense of who I am and and I can still be taken seriously. You know? And then I think, you know, with you, you don't have to speaker-0: L to the yes. speaker-1: come in and be, you know, like the white man, that's just like, well, you know what? I just I just bow down. You can you can also speak with authority, right? And say, hey, but also, you know, accountability works on all sides. And and I know this is probably gonna piss a lot of people off, but I I'm saying this with my whole chest here. ⁓ we are all contributing to the problem when we when we especially when we speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: effectively choose to do nothing. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I mean, ⁓ and and I just want to clear up fighting with someone on social media about their political views, also not helping folks. Cut it out. You know, that's ⁓ and we we we're talking about, you know, online bullying. And I think we have reduced that to what happens with like school aged children and teenagers and stuff. Online bullying can happen across the board, and I think I've I've definitely seen some bullies on all sides. speaker-0: That's not speaker-1: And that is also not helping. We can't yell from the mountaintops, This is a problem and someone needs to fix it and also continue to contribute to the problem. speaker-0: There's s ⁓ yes, one hundred percent. And it it's interesting because it sounds like as we say something like we're all contributing to the problem, which is absolutely true, because we're all playing the game. But again, it comes back to how pervasive all this this systemic oppression really is because we're so it's part of our DNA now. It's it's ingrained in how we think and feel about ourselves and the world around us. And so like, how the shit do we do this? And You know, like yeah, I I don't know. speaker-1: I can think of ways we we don't do it. And and and I think as an educator, I'd I'd love for us to dialogue about this for about 20 seconds. ⁓ reading one book about a thing does not make you proficient. It does not make you competent in one particular area. I say this because I think between you and I, we've collectively read the entire New York library. ⁓ you know, with our education. ⁓ but but we also have to understand that that ⁓ we are poor historians, right? As as individuals, and that is just fact. What ⁓ what we understand about memory and working memory and memory over time and and perception, all that we're poor historians. But outside of that, ⁓ books are left up to art and people's opinions, people's perceptions of things that occurred, which is why there is not one book about like one particular subject, right? So you could read 700 history books about you know, the Cold War and all have different perspectives about that war because it's all different, ⁓ you know, all different snapshots and and different pieces of time. So one book doesn't do it, folks. Having conversations with, you know, people of the opposite, ⁓ and I don't even like opposite, right? 'Cause that that's still w we are we're already a bifurcated society in many ways and trifurcated, quadfurcated. I don't Like, you know, up all the little avenues. ⁓ but speaking to someone and having conversations with people that are not of your same cultural background, also not enough, right? Especially if you're not willing to learn. ⁓ and with and I I wanna challenge people and and get your opinion on this. Learning isn't just taking the information in, learning is also application. speaker-0: Yeah, it's the integration of it. Like probably Yeah, it's yeah, you're absolutely right. Yes. Yeah. Short answer I I speaker-1: Yup, yup, and ding, right? Just we're done. But and I I say this and I'm I'm so strong in this this this thought that I think there are people that take, take, take, take, take in information and they're like, ⁓ I learned about that, right? Like I can tell you many things about axolotls. It's one of my favorite animals. And if you don't know what an axolotl is, look it up. ⁓ it is the cutest little ugly creature, and I love it with all my heart, right? But I can tell you everything that I have learned, but I've I've also never spoken to an axolotl, probably won't, because that, you know, ⁓ that doesn't make me an expert on it. And I don't think we're necessarily aiming to be experts in someone else's life. You know, we think about Smith's book, Decol you know, Decolonizing Methodologies and how our mere presence disrupts the very way that people live their lives. And that we can change just by being present, we disrupt the very fabric and fiber of people's existence. ⁓ so doing research isn't really research. And I think we also have to be very mindful that in educational systems, what I like to teach my students is that you're gonna you're gonna get a lot of information thrown at you. Real learning is deciphering from all of that information. How to truly, compassionately, holistically, spiritually, positively impact the lives of everyone. speaker-0: A lot of thoughts are coming to the forefront. Yeah. speaker-1: Do it. speaker-0: I I think I lost my train of thought all of a sudden. But it it's it's like may I share a story really quick. So early it was like late eighties, early nineties. I'm listening to a broad range of of music and I'm introduced to groups like Living Color, ⁓ Public Enemy, ⁓ W A I speaker-1: Please, please do. speaker-0: ⁓ You know, it and at first what's really interesting going back to like the idea of how we steal culture through yeah, through media and that sort of thing. And we just you know start to pretend, you know, use the language and all this other stuff and it's just just but we're not listening to the stuff, right? ⁓ speaker-1: Everything. speaker-0: Important things to say. ⁓ I come back to, you know, what a lot of folks from my community were talking about, ⁓ as that music gained popularity or those artists gained some momentum, is this fear, and it's perfectly titled Fear of a Black Planet, ⁓ from Public Enemy. ⁓ but it's this fear that ⁓ black people hate white people and they They just wanna cause violence and da da da da da da all these things that are being said, ⁓ these fears from the white community, but we're not really listening to the music. We're not really listening to what's being said. And as I think about artists like Living Color my favorite artists of all time, Living Color is one of the most influential music groups of my life, period. And ⁓ in their second album, Time's Up, there's two two tracks. One is called history lesson. And it's really not a a song, but it's a collection of voices and ⁓ with statements like we are wearing the names of our masters. ⁓ music is not an art form so much as it is a means of communication. ⁓ talking about what it means to be black in the United States. ⁓ and what's interesting about that is okay, that's not my community. So what do I do? Hit next on the on the track or do I listen to what's being said? And that gives me an opportunity to learn from others' lived experience. And I didn't I wasn't connecting the dots back in 19 ⁓ 91 when that was released. But the next track after that is a track called Pride. And they're they're saying things like relate to me as me, not what you see on TV. ⁓ talking about how we ⁓ we love their hair, we love their music, we love the culture of it all, but we're dehumanizing at the same time. That track when I first listened to it, I had a pit of anxiety in my stomach. Like like ⁓ what I don't know how I feel about this song. And sometimes I hit next on the on the track. But the more I listened to it, the more I realize that it's a message to me. Not just me as an individual, but to me as part of the white community ⁓ that has been a part of causing so much pain. And so I guess coming back to the question is we have to be willing to learn about others lived experience. ⁓ without by removing the fear that we have inside with our own discomfort. And if we're able to do that, we can actually sit and engage, sit with our own stuff, and then engage in the in the dialogue that's being shared. So that way we can how do I say this? There's a ⁓ in Washington State, there's a ⁓ it ⁓ it's a program called ⁓ Camp Chaparral. It's a it's a program hosted by the Yakima Nation. And what's really interesting is for veterans and ⁓ for those who work with veterans. And it's like a week-long retreat. And so folks go out and they they engage in this and every single night they ⁓ they sit in a circle and they share stories. And one of the most important qualities about that is not so much just to share our story to be heard, but it's so that the community can take ownership of the story and carry the weight of that story as well. So it becomes a shared speaker-1: Yeah. Storytelling and and acceptance. I think what I keep hearing and that just keeps just like is acceptance, acceptance, acceptance, acceptance. So with learning right about other people's stories and experiences, it is accepting that those are their experiences. And and that is key, right? I mean, there is nothing that will shut me down faster than that's that's not what you experienced. That's not what you and and I just mean this like as a woman. Right. ⁓ if you're part of any marginalized group, ⁓ or any group that is not, you know, like a white thriving male in this country, ⁓ you know, your experience is is often casted, you know, cast aside and and that that that can't be your experience because racism is dead and look, you have more opportunity to more opportunity. I mean, okay. Thanks. Thanks for that affirmative action stuff. Yeah. ⁓ but but I think about it and I think maybe that's the piece, right? Not and and I wanna clear this up. Acceptance does not mean you agree. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. Yes. That's so powerful. It's it's it's true because we feel like we have to ⁓ I think Spock said it best from Star Trek, I I I I I disagree with it, but I understand. And and it's just we don't have to accept ⁓ no, ⁓ blah blah blah blah blah. We don't have to agree, but we have to accept the truth of others lived realities. You're so right. speaker-1: Yes. It's so it's difficult. I think it's super difficult because, you know, ⁓ I I think this is part of why we have seen just like a ⁓ I don't want to say uptick, this is probably incorrect, but ⁓ for for women and men and trans individuals, you know, trans persons and ⁓ other marginalized groups who've who've experienced ⁓ you know, interpersonal violence, sexual assault, things like that. When when they're dismissed. And it's just like, well, where were you? And what time? And yeah, that doesn't, that's not classified as rape and blah, blah, blah. A, we what we're doing is we're enforcing and then reinforcing people to not come forward. We do the same things when it comes to marginalized groups and people of color and you know, individuals with with disabilities, both visibly and invisibly. ⁓ well, we discount their experiences. And we say, Yeah, there's no way that that that could happen or you know, or they tell you to try to do something that is futile. speaker-0: Right. They or they're they're start their problem solve for you. It's like, yeah. No. speaker-1: Yeah, like I tell people all the time, I'm like, Okay, you telling me that might be your experience of how you do it. If I tried that, I could be met with a very different consequence. ⁓ which could be fatal. speaker-0: It that's and that's true. And that speaks to the privilege of it all. It's like there. That's the that's part of it, right? So you I mean yes, I agree. speaker-1: I wasn't trying to shut you down. It's just it's my my brain does that. It just goes kind of goes in in these directions of like for me, you know, where I'm a problem solver and I want to solve the problem and I know I can't do it by myself. And half the time I'm like, I I don't even know if I am I doing it? Am I am I helping? Am I contributing? Because my very existence, I want I I just want to help people. I just want to help people at the end of the day. All all backgrounds, all cultures, all you know, sexes and genders and creeds and walks of I just want to help people. But I realize in helping people, A, there it needs to be an acknowledgement of different experiences. And I think we're definitely lacking there. We're definitely lacking. Before we can even get to acceptance, we've got to acknowledge that there is an an existence, an experience that is different from our own. And I think that's where I see is falling short and and it sounds like that that's what you're seeing too. speaker-0: I think so. And I think it's embodied too. It's interesting the response to the Trump administration this time around. And there's a lot of talk of fascism. ⁓ and w you know, a lot of white voices are coming up and are speaking out against fascism. But the truth is fascism ex has existed in the United States since day one, since before day one. And it's it's just just it's what's convenient for us to talk about. and ⁓ I think I lost track of my point in why I was going through here, but it's the acknowledgement. And and so as we're doing this, we're not acknowledging the truth that fascism has existed before and we're only speaking up now because it's inconvenienced for it. We're being inconvenienced. It's a problem for us, and so now it's important. But for fuck's sake, it's been important always. Ignored always. speaker-1: Always. Always. Always. Always. Yeah. And I think, you know, we we owe several debts of gratitude. I know even as a person from the non white delegation, ⁓ we owe a debts of gratitude to the people before us, ⁓ the indigenous peoples, the individual ⁓ peoples, you know, whose whose lands that we now in inhabit to are peoples of color, to our to our mothers. ⁓ for their their blood for the the cost, the heavy debt that they paid. Yep. ⁓ on our behalf, both willingly, unwillingly, and and in between. And ⁓ this is a subject that I think we we need to continue to talk about. We're we're not gonna hash it out in one day. No one form is gonna do it. No ⁓ I don't even think ⁓ just a series It's gonna do this, right? And and I think we're you and I in this conversation, I think we're just getting started. I think we're just getting started. And it's it's beautiful to watch. ⁓ and at the same time, you know, I think as educators, as as two highly ed ⁓ educated individuals working towards the same mission and greater good, you know, ⁓ vastly different experiences, different approaches. approaches but but attacking you know the this the same issues there is I think there's still a lot of fear, right? ⁓ maybe on on both sides, there's a lot of fear that I have speaking out about, you know, about this, ⁓ in my own reflection about ⁓ my experience and and my you know ⁓ my testimony about being and feeling invalidated ⁓ even by people in my own community. ⁓ and I can only imagine too when you are an ally, if you if you call yourself an an ally, you represent that ⁓ within your community as well. Experiencing that othering that can happen within our own communities. And it's it makes I think our our jobs and our missions that much harder to fulfill. speaker-0: I agree with you one 100%. I ⁓ it it feels like we're getting close to the end of the conversation, but ⁓ I I feel like b and I'm not saying that to rush ⁓ because I'm enjoying this, ⁓ mindful of your time, but it feels important to say and this is something many members of the white delegation might not want to hear. speaker-1: Okay. speaker-0: But the truth of the of the fact is the greatest patriots of the United States have always been people of color. And the greatest patriots of the United States have been the black community always. And without the contributions of the black community in particular, this country wouldn't exist. It wouldn't be what it is today. It wouldn't be as influential or as powerful. ⁓ and I think I think that's important to to pay attention to here because it's It's Kind of goes back to the acceptance. You know, and ⁓ and it's something that we're we don't want to acknowledge. And I I think that that's I I don't know why it feels important to say that at this moment, but it it it feels necessary because it's the truth. speaker-1: I think the feeling that I get and what I've always thought is, you know, ⁓ blacks have definitely ⁓ contributed so much and have helped, you know, to to build this nation. And I would also say, you know, immigrants ⁓ as well. And I think the importance and the timeliness of of what you just said is because we're living in a time now where the rights and the freedoms and the privileges of ⁓ particular groups. Yeah, they're being walked back. And and we're I think we've stopped asking why. And that is i such an interesting place to be, right? At this point we we know why. But the question is speaker-0: It would be a lot of. speaker-1: What happens next? And we go right back to that beginning question of, you know, what what do we do now? What what happens next? And I don't know that there's a clean answer. speaker-0: think there was a clean answer because it could you know is I'm reminded of ⁓ listening to a speech from Martin Luther King. I remember s ⁓ him talking about the the difference the the idea of passivity with a nonviolent approach. And he's really highlighting the complexities of of that approach because it's not taking up arms against the oppressor. But what's fascinating about that is the mere The fact of that nonviolent approach is an assault on the conscious of the psyche of the oppressor. They don't even know what to do with that. And so as a result, they're resorting to violence to do what we you know we know how to do. ⁓ but he's also talking about just because I'm using a nonviolent approach doesn't mean I'm okay with everything. I'm angry. To be angry about this. And and I think we have to acknowledge the fact that, yeah, we're fucking pissed off. speaker-1: Like we have a right speaker-0: And it's okay to be pissed off and it's okay to be angry and it's okay to move forward with love and empathy. speaker-1: Yes. Yes. ⁓ you know what, Doctor Hollander, we could talk about this forever and I am I am just so ⁓ gravely, gravely, deeply grateful ⁓ for people like you, for the work that you do, for the the knowledge that you continue to invest in, for the work that you do with your students, for your social justice, you know, reform, for your mindset, for your love, for your compassion. And I I I I can't say this enough because ⁓ We we all need support. We all need love. We all need grace. And we all just want to be heard. And I think today a lot of people were heard because of you and because of this conversation. And so I I can't thank you enough. I can't thank you enough for being here. I can't thank you enough for your time. And we have to do this again. We gotta get a panel going and just like ⁓ we gotta talk this one out and we gotta just solve We we gotta solve for world peace. You know, we gotta go back to our childhood dreams of world peace and and and all those wonderful things. ⁓ speaker-0: For series, so I would love that. That would be awesome. speaker-1: Yes. Well, you know, this is the wonderful thing about I think this time. There's so much to say. There's so much that that we need to talk about. And we're going to continue these conversations. Like I said in the beginning, these are real conversations with real people about real things, you know, rooted in growth and healing and purpose. ⁓ so you know, on that note, I wanna thank everybody and I wanna thank my amazing guest, Dr. Jeremy Hollander, for being with us today. ⁓ If this resonated with you, please share this with somebody who, you know, you think would benefit from it, might need to hear it. ⁓ please like, follow, share this podcast. And, you know, until next time, please, please, please stay rooted in who you are and keep rising into who you're becoming. Take care. speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: ⁓