Aging With Dignity: Mental Health, Autonomy & the People Our Systems Overlook

Dr. Carmela Maxell: All right. Welcome back to Rooted in Rising with Dr. Carmela Maxwell. We Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: spend a lot of time talking about mental health across different stages of life, but there is one population whose mental health needs are still remarkably easy to overlook: older adults. Aging can bring enormous wisdom, freedom, and perspective, but it can also bring grief, changes in identity, declining health, isolation. Financial insecurity, loss of independence, and the experience of navigating systems that don't always understand what aging actually looks like. And when aging intersects with things like homelessness, incarceration, behavioral health concerns, disability or poverty, those systems can become even more difficult to navigate. So today we're talking about what it really means to support people as they age. not simply keeping them safe, but protecting their autonomy, dignity, identity, and right to continue directing their own lives. And today I have an amazing guest, Miss Alison Laird Craig, program manager of the Elder Education Institute at Sound Generations. Alison, welcome to Rooted in Rising. Alison Laird Craig: Thank you, Carmella. It's such a pleasure Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: to be here and and have this conversation with you. It's such an important one. Dr. Carmela Maxell: It is, and this is something that is very near and dear to me as someone who dealt with, you know, an ailing parent before he passed, and there were so many questions I had and so many things that I wish I knew and I hope that this enlightens you know, things for for many people. before we get into aging and mental health, tell me a little bit about you. How did you become involved in this work? Alison Laird Craig: Well, I have I come from a v extremely varied background. I have a background in the arts, in healthcare. I used to be a manual therapist and a Chinese medicine practitioner. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Wow. Alison Laird Craig: I have a background in higher education administration and small business development. And so I came to this work that I'm doing now, you know, just kind of accidentally. I left my last position. several years ago and when I came upon this position opening I thought well that sounds interesting you know curating an educational series about older adults mental health I had I have no background in aging services until I c started doing this work. So you know it was just meant to be it was in the cards. And I'm so glad I did come to this work because it's not It's not these issues are not something I thought anything about, to you know, not with any depth prior to doing this work. And I feel very blessed and honored to be able to hopefully open people's, you know, worldview about older adults and and the need for continued care t through the lifespan. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. I think that's really important, right? Because I think many of us forget that we we age. We are gonna become the elderly and and there is so much that I think people don't know or we don't think about until we get to that point or we have interactions with people who are experiencing that. So I think this is wonderful work. And I wanna get into the Elder Education Institute. What is that? And what gap was that created to fill? Alison Laird Craig: The Elder Education Institute is one of 13 programs from an organization called Sound Generations in Seattle, Washington. Sound Generations Dr. Carmela Maxell: Woo. Alison Laird Craig: is a multi-service social services nonprofit organization that has programs that help older adults age with dignity, grace. and autonomy hopefully and and and some of the programs do serve older adults who are in crisis or to try and prevent them from going into crisis mode. It's a very good organization doing many good things for older adults in many different realms. And you know this program the Elder Education Institute evolved from Some programming that was at the University of Washington and then was taken on by when that was let go there, two very passionate geriatric mental health specialists who felt that it was incredibly important to continue offering continuing education courses for people who specialize in working with older adults because there's just not enough of them out there. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: No. Alison Laird Craig: so the Elder Education Institute. while there are some other, there's obviously other trainings out there within graduate programs, but there there are gerontology programs, obviously, but not nearly enough of them at this point. And in terms of continuing education, there's not many at all. And ours is one of the only programs that I'm aware of that has that isn't just one instructor, but multiple instructors with different different areas of expertise in the gerontology mental health world. Dr. Carmela Maxell: This is amazing work. And you know, as a clinician myself, I remember you know, I was matriculating through my my master's, my first master's program, and then, you know, with my doctorate, and geriatric studies was was being sort of like washed away. and I think that there you know, we can get into this in a little bit, but I you know, I want the audience to know this is an area that was I think once a specialty and now is almost becoming it's it's reach reached sort of endangered species territory, right? Where there's there's so few programs and and so little information in a formal setting where people can can gravitate towards that. and I think it's it's a shame because aging is something that occurs for for most of us. it's something that that we see. It's you know in the in the lifespan. and it is really important w if for individuals that are interested in working with older populations that they are adequately trained and that, you know, that there there is care that is that is really placed on on this particular population. And then even with that population, they're families and we'll we'll, you know, Alison Laird Craig: Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: explore that a little more. But you talked about, you know, professionals that are working with the aging population. What what do you think clinicians and service pro providers are traditionally what are they not taught that you think they might need to know when it comes to the the geriatric or or older adults? Alison Laird Craig: Well, can can I c comment first on what you what you're we're just speaking to? I Dr. Carmela Maxell: Absolutely. Alison Laird Craig: you know, I don't know that most people are aware that we have a huge older adult population in the United States now. Every day eleven thousand people turn 65 in the United States. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Whew. Wow. Alison Laird Craig: you know, the numbers of older adults are in the millions, and the number of clinicians Who are trained with specialty in working with older adults or in the thousands in the United States. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: We need something like 24 more thousand people trained in these special unique needs in the next four years. We are already in a public health crisis with this. just the working, you know, older adults living situations, there's not enough assistive living. And other, you know, many other areas where there are huge issues in this. So I I really like to point that out because public health Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: crisis is where we are. And because people live so much longer now, f future generations are going to also have huge populations of older adults. And if we don't Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: start this now. we are already in trouble. We're you we're gonna be in really big trouble. So Right. Well Dr. Carmela Maxell: We won't know what to do. Wow. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: that's I don't know. It's it's I can't even imagine what what will happen if we don't turn this around at this point in time. sorry, I just had to I wanted to to say all Dr. Carmela Maxell: No, I think this is great. I I love the numbers. I think it really it adds color and detail to this this crisis Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: because I you know, I think you're right. I I I have noticed this in in my own practice in the the populations of individuals who are older in in one specific realm who who are having to go back to work because we have a series of other crises and there are unique needs and accommodations that have to be put in place because of this the the serious crises that we're in. So I'm I'm it's sort of percolating a lot of those those thoughts that I've already Alison Laird Craig: It can't be. Dr. Carmela Maxell: had, but I think the audience needs to know, I mean, that is that is huge. You know, that that's not a static number either, when you say, you know, a little over eleven thousand individuals turning 65 Alison Laird Craig: Ha ha ha. Dr. Carmela Maxell: on a daily basis. It's it's steadily increasing. And and Alison Laird Craig: Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: and like you said, and I want to reiterate What's not increasing is the number of professionals or the amount of education that people are soaking in about this population. And and we've gotta do something. We've got to do something about it. Alison Laird Craig: So back to your question, what do I think that service providers who work or would like to work with older adults need to know? Well, I think the urgency that I just expressed around this is is really, really important. I think people need, Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: you know, there is such an attrition in gerontologists, as you mentioned. And I have asked many people why they think that is. One one person said they think it's because people don't want to deal with Medicare. I I also just think that in our culture, older people are highly marginalized. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: They are invisible, they become invisible. And I think that professionals need to check their own bodies. And their own ageism in a really big way. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: I think that whether older adults are considered sexy or not, we are here and we are here. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: and and I think professionals, there's so much they need to know, but I think looking into their own hearts and saying, why am I, why do I not want to deal with these people? And and and how can Dr. Carmela Maxell: Right. Alison Laird Craig: I change my heart around this? Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. You know, I think thinking about this from everything that I have taught, my own experiences. I think we put the elderly in one of two camps, and I'm sure there's all these other subcamps, right? But the the wise sage ones that we learn from, which is in many ways very archaic, right? I think we've shifted so much in our society, but we we have historically seen those who who have Gone up in age and who are elderly as like the they're the ones they're they're the the the historical gatherers, they're the ones that pass the narratives down to younger generations. On the other hand, it's and I it makes me so uncomfortable to think this, but in in in terms of usefulness, there's a lot of thought Alison Laird Craig: Uh-huh. Dr. Carmela Maxell: in society be like how useful is an aging. individual. And that I think is r in relation to a few things, right? The workforce, driving. And and I think that there are there are some merits, right? Some modicums of truth when it comes to risk, right? For we know in terms of lifespan development and what happens to an aging body over time. Even in ideal conditions, there there are risks that we want to be careful about. when it when it comes to and and I think though for for those who are who you know have both visible and invisible handicaps or wounds things like that we there I think we we sort of it's bifurcated right when it comes to the elderly Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: population and I think Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: you're spot on. I don't think that a lot of people would would think about this information or older adults as sexy and at the same point They were us once upon a time. We will be them at another point Alison Laird Craig: Right. Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: in time. And so it's it's mind boggling, I think. It's just really mind boggling to think that yeah. Alison Laird Craig: It is mind boggling. And you know, w when I was young, I didn't think about being an older person ever. and I don't know that a lot of younger people do. I mean I I assume some do, but Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: but you know, the thing about ageism that's so bizarre and it operates exactly like every other form of prejudice, is that it's a it's a bias towards your future self. And that sets in I you know We can talk about that, but there's like that sets all sorts of things going in your own self that actually decreases your longevity. So Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: yeah, it's a very weird phenomenon. And and you know what you were speaking to about some elders or in some cultures I think elders are revered as wisdom keepers, as the people you go to to get sage advice from. But we live in a culture that values productivity, youth, and I guess wisdom and a crude experience aren't valued. You know, it's it's very strange. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Not in the same ways. And and I have spoken about this in in previous episodes. It's something that I'm still talking about, even though you know, a lot of this is these are products and byproducts of my generation, social media and the information we we live in a very information heavy, information flooded society. And so when we have access to information, whether it's accurate or not. when we have access to information, it does move certain pieces, certain individuals, certain narratives, certain stories into a a different placeholder in terms of that value system, right? So it's in essence, I'll be I'll be frank, it's like, well, why am I gonna talk to an an elderly person when I can get my information off of the internet? And I think that is, you know, Because we we live in a period of relevancy and relevancy shifts and changes. And I'm frankly, I don't know what to do with it. And I have to be a part of it, you know, even doing a podcast, I have to I have to I have to be a part of it. You have to be a part of it. We have to utilize Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: these tools and at the same time they're the same tools that make it really hard to keep that reverence in the same ways for our our elderly. Folks. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, well social media, wow, it's it's breaking down soci Dr. Carmela Maxell: So beast, Alison Laird Craig: societies all over the world. Really, I Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: mean it's it's destroying people's capacity to communicate, really communicate, to feel each other's nervous systems, to yeah, it's and so yes, for older people I it you know, and just The way that the stereotype, like the whole okay boomer thing, so toxic, so toxic, and talk Dr. Carmela Maxell: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alison Laird Craig: about spread like wildfire. And it sets up just like all prejudice does, horrible generalizations, feeling of righteousness in hating a group of people. That that whole okay boomer thing was really and and st continues to be. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: You know, I I still know younger people who have all these rigid stereotypes about that about the boomer generation and they're they're meant mostly very, very incorrect. So Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you know, I wish I could say, well, you know, I the the old saying Rome wasn't built in a day. I I feel like conversations like this though are important to have to help rebuild Rome and and Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: to really because I think across generations, you know, not even just with boomers and you know Gen X millennials, Gen Z. There are so many different ageist stereotypes across generations Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: that perhaps if we just sat down and had conversations, we would see that there are so many commonalities more and and and stop this divisiveness. but I think particularly for our older generations, we are losing so much rich historical information that I think could be keys to our survival. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. I think so too. I I Dr. Carmela Maxell: And that scares me. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, well, it should. I mean, it it's it should. I mean, I think about this because you know, I come f my background is, you know, is in embodiment practice and and helping people become more embodied and and social media and just the way that we relate now is so disembodied. And I often think, gee, I am so glad that I was born in the time I was born because I have those relational skills. And not everybody in my generation has those relations, but you know, we we came up analog and and you know I I just see many younger people, especially young young people, who are losing the capacity to look in another person's eyes, to feel comfortable being touched, which Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: are Those two things are imperative to our mental health. Those are part of how we grow our brains as babies. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: without them, we do not survive. We we become crippled. And I think a lot of the violence that happens in our culture is is you know from that the impact of of these these skills disappearing. But that's a whole other that's a whole other topic. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, the lack of but but I you know what but but it really does dive into the the mental health pieces that we're we're talking about today. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: I've said this before, one of my one of the individuals I revere is Gene Baker Miller. and this the the concept of humans are hardwired to connect. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: and I think I believe in boundary setting, right? That's like that's that is a lot with my generation, boundary setting, but also touch connection. you know, one of the first things that they do at hospitals. I know I've had children, one of the first things that they do in hospitals after you have given birth is they place the baby on your chest for skin to skin contact. And we Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: have lost you know, a lot of that. I also know that there's profuse trauma and there's a lot of things that explain for many people why touch is is something that's really hard. But I think in general, you know, to your point, people don't know how to be and relate in ways that that foster those connections because it really does help rewire our brain. It really does help Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: rewire our brain and and and and our are the older generations. They know that. They know that. I know my father, he knew that. And we would oftentimes have these discussions and I I wish if I could speak with him today, right? There's so much I can still pick his brain about in relation to this. And this the ageism piece is I think that's really hard because on the one hand there's the avoidance, but I think the biggest piece And where I think you come in and why we're having this conversation is people truly do not know what to do with our aging population. They just don't know Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: what to do. And I so I want to give that grace because people are like, I don't know, like, yeah, I'm gonna age. I think about aging all the time, but then I also think, Am I ever gonna retire at this rate? Yeah. So so I can't think about aging because I have to think about keeping a roof over my head. But to your point, I mean, there's so many, there's so Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: much. misinformation, there's such a lack of information. and then there's there are the stereotypes. There are the stereotypes here. So there's this tendency to normalize suffering in older adults, which is not necessarily true. My dad was 90 years old, and that man, we could never slow him down, right? So he would he would be up on roofs, he'd be fixing stuff. It was impressive to see. It was also terrifying because we didn't know what he was doing. And what project he was getting into. And so, you know, we think, okay, someone's lonely, well, they're old. Someone's grieving, well, that's part of aging. Someone's, you know, has withdrawn, well, they're slowing down. And we don't realize that those are ageist statements and those can be painful. And the aging population, as we are all human, that still can contribute to to pain and depression and anxiety that can contribute to suffering and we normalize that. We normalize slowing Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: down when we can there are examples of people who are well into like their 70s, 80s, 90s that are not slowing down. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: the number one for me is is you know that Ruth Bader Ginsberg Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: And was doing push-ups until she was not doing push-ups anymore. And so we've got to squash some of that. Right? And and so my question to you about this is how do we distinguish the realities of aging from from mental health concerns that deserve attention and intervention? Because I think we've got some misconceptions about what aging is and what it's supposed to look like. Right, right. Alison Laird Craig: looks like. Right. Well, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. I mean, I think the stereotype about aging is that we become all become decrepit, we all become dependent. and you know, in thinking about that, and you know, that we revere older people who act young. Right. And that's great. If somebody's got energy until the my dad lived to be 93, he worked till the very end. He loved his work. And I think it's wonderful that you know the truth is that most older adults, or many of them, do not become decrepit. There is biological decay that happens. There's no way around that. Some people you know, age more rapidly in in that they decline more rapidly, but they they have health issues or they haven't taken care of themselves or whatever it is. Dr. Carmela Maxell: wanted to like hop in on something that you said when you were like that we we revere elderly individuals that act young, which is still unfortunately, and I say unfortunately, Alison Laird Craig: Yes. Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: a nod to youth, which means that we it's inadvertently sort of disclosing that we don't value. aging as its own separate category. Like, right, so if you a Alison Laird Craig: Exactly, exactly. As a natural process. Dr. Carmela Maxell: right, like if we say aging with grace, actually that term actually makes me cringe because I'm like, Alison Laird Craig: Right. Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: so if I don't age with grace, like if I don't continue with the skincare regimen, or if I if I wrinkle, if I get if my hair is my my my head is full of grays, which is already full of grays and I'm not near the the elderly, you know, cohort, If if if I don't age with grace, then I will be devalued. Alison Laird Craig: Right. Well, so that's you know, I I so w what I was getting at was that you know, many older adults there are stereotypes about aging that are just incorrect. And many of those stereotypes have to do with becoming a burden, Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: being a burden, becoming decrepit. And so we look at the older adults who are still very active, they're still very cognitively bright. And we say, isn't that great? And it is, it is. And fortunately, that's really the majority of pe of older adults. But aging Just like any living thing, a plant is gonna age if you don't, you know, it it's a little bit different, but things, flowers come and they go, and it's a natural process. And we so feel separated from nature as humans, like we're above it, that why can't we value older people who are decrepit and who do need care and do need to be taken care of? and instead of treating them as though they're a pain in our butt Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: or something to be shut away, you know, and distorted. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: why can't we find them beautiful too? And and say, yay, you're still here. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: you're you're you're aging as you, you know, as you are, and we still value and and care about you. And we're gonna take care of you. Dr. Carmela Maxell: You know, I think my my immediate response is when we don't have enough information as as on certain groups of people, as we've done in the United States and perhaps even around the world. When there are groups of people that we don't understand, we tend to write our own conclusions about those stories. And so it's hard to value things that we don't want to take the time to invest in. And we see we've seen this historically, right, with marginalized groups, we've seen this with women, we've seen this with with individuals with mental health concerns, people in recovery, incarcerated individuals, groups that we don't understand and want to invest our time in, we we just draw conclusions. And it's I think it's it's painful because we miss out on some great opportunities to connect with some amazing people who, mind Alison Laird Craig: Yes. Dr. Carmela Maxell: you, we owe them a lot of gratitude for You know, it and I don't know that they got it all right. I d I know my generation's not gonna get it all right, but we are still Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: parts of the foundation. and it just it is it is utterly strange and heartbreaking. but also very enlightening to have this conversation 'cause I I'm checking my own biases here. I really am. I'm checking what what Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: have I said or maybe what have I done that has been irreverent. 'cause I think I've I have just nothing but but but respect and and grace for for those who are older than there. I I yeah it's it's it's hard to fathom. Very hard to fathom. Alison Laird Craig: You know, we it's so deeply ingrained into our culture. Ageism is that, you know, let's think about all the comedians who make, you know, they won't make jokes about black people anymore. They don't make jokes about Jews anymore. They don't make jokes about gay people. Some people do, but you know, it's Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: like that's been tamped down. And and yet the old people jokes just get flung around and they They create the same kind they create a stereotype as old people as daughtering and and useless. And so I I have ageist beliefs too. I mean we all do. Everybody in this culture has them. And that I think it's you know, if I I think the single most important thing that we need to turn around is ageism, is making Dr. Carmela Maxell: yes. Alison Laird Craig: sure that People start to understand it as as toxic as any other form of prejudice and how Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes. Alison Laird Craig: how it's going to affect impact their own lives if they and and other people's Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: lives if they don't if we don't turn this around. So don't beat yourself up. Dr. Carmela Maxell: I'll I'll be honest with you, my experience. Yeah, you know, and and I my thing is I just want to work at it. I think it's it's it's really just working through it and just becoming more educated and then outside of education implementation, right? Because we I can't say this enough that we can get all this information, but what do we do with it? And just sort of like a an asterisk. When I think about ageism and like your sort of I juxtapose that to what you said about. comedy because I love a good comedy. I love, you know, I love a good laugh. And at the same time, you're right, as I as I think back through the roster of what I've listened to, there there are a lot of jokes that are aimed towards elderly Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: populations. What is super interesting though is one, we it it sort of denotes to me that we have not truly established or implemented that elderly populations are a protected group. The second piece there is I can see HR documents in my head right now, right? Where when it comes to like the EEOC, equal opportunity and and and hiring practices, that anyone over, I believe, the age of 40 is considered part of a protected class. But those are two avenues, but we somehow we somehow don't see or talk about. Age things unless they are almost contrived, contrived situations, right? So Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: That that's bothersome. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean if you start Dr. Carmela Maxell: Ooh, that is so bothersome. Alison Laird Craig: digging into this, so much of it is bothersome. you know. Dr. Carmela Maxell: my gosh, like I'm already, I need a second cup at this point. Like what, what? Wow. Wow. You know, and and you talked about ageism and and and like the concept itself. So how do you believe ageism affects mental health? And not just this like overt discrimination, right? Sometimes it's covert. I think some of it is pretty covert. by some of the things that we say, yeah, no, we don't we don't want that person to do that because we don't want to get hurt. We know what you're saying, right? but those sub subtle almost like micro insults, that people may be less capable or less relevant or that their value is diminished because they're older. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Well that one right, you know, the last thing you said is is what first comes to my mind is just a degradation of i if you let these things get to you, which it's a little hard not to sometimes, your own feeling of self-worth, you know, having meaning in life. Let's say you're a retired person and you're older and your meaning in life came from your profession or your, you know, your work. you know, you're already struggling with to recreate meaning in your life. And so these kinds of comments, they just erode your self-worth. I mean, you're already struggling with all sorts of other issues like loss, loss of your friends as they all start to die. Your Dr. Carmela Maxell: yeah. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: s your s your grief about your own physical. you know, abilities, and we Dr. Carmela Maxell: Abilities. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: do you know, as we get older, there are things that we may have to stop doing because of a variety of reasons, participate in. So You know, the other thing that this there's a famous study that just came out recently that shows that ageism impacts younger people as well. It actually negative beliefs about a natural process that you're already engaged in. We're all aging at every second of every day, actually takes seven years off your life because it creates stress. Think about all the stress just around Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: women in particular, men too. about how we look as we age and the changes Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: in our bodies and the condemnation or the you know the kind of like advertising that's always anti-aging is that what's going on with you is somehow to be attacked you know right Dr. Carmela Maxell: I mean they're called anti-aging creams. I can't. I'm like, but then I feel compelled, right? Because you know, I I think to myself, okay, well, anti-aging, I'm I'm old enough, maybe, I think, right, in my brain to start using anti aging products. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so you start that because we we've already ingrained this preventative measure of something that is inevitable. So it's it's it's it doesn't even make sense. It does not even make sense. Anti wrinkle and when did wrinkles become not a thing? I mean it's the same with I think with with women and you know as a as a woman who's had three children, stretch marks, right? When did stretch marks not w why why are they not beautiful? Why is that not a sign that life was there? Alison Laird Craig: Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: and it's the same with wrinkles. Why is that not A sign that the body gave and is continuing to give. Alison Laird Craig: Exactly. Dr. Carmela Maxell: I know, there's it's it's it is it's extremely painful and I think that there are more people that they just I think they just want and need to know what to do, right? So but one area and this was an area and I'll I'll say on a personal note that was really rough for me as as you know, my father's daughter and and and working with individuals who have had ailing Parents who are elderly or family members, friends, you know. one area that I absolutely love about EEI is that it addresses decision-making capacity. And I think Alison Laird Craig: Mm, yeah, yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: that this is a hot button topic. I think people sometimes assume that cognitive decline, like a psychiatric diagnos diagnosis or simply advanced age automatically means that someone can no longer make decisions for themselves. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: What do you think professionals, and then maybe just people in general need to understand about the difference between protecting an older adult and unnecessarily taking away their autonomy? Alison Laird Craig: Well, you know, we have a strong tendency in this culture, and it's one of the things I really dislike the most when people do this to me is being infantilized. Dr. Carmela Maxell: yes. Alison Laird Craig: like, haven't I had an entire I was an adult? With you know, and I still am, I have not reverted to being an infant. Even if I'm in diapers and you're having to take care of me, I am still an adult, right? and I've Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes, yes. Alison Laird Craig: had a whole life you know, behind me. so decision-making capacity assessment is extremely important, and I have to brag a little bit, but our program. it's a 24 CEU granting program for mental health professionals and any other service provider, any other health professional or service provider who is in a position where they have to perhaps go to a court or sign some sort of, you know, legal papers saying this person is incapable of making d sound decisions about their life or not. And That goes into so many, so many different areas and in particular when older adults are being exploited and abused by people around them. so it's really important to to Dr. Carmela Maxell: And is this I because I want our audience to know for these CEUs, is this just for the state of Washington? Is their intent to bring it across? Please let us know where, in terms of accessibility, because I think this is definitely where we want to catch people who are interested in this, professionals that need and would like these CEUs, and for all of you in the audience, this information will be available in the show notes so that you can access information about the the EEI and and get involved Alison Laird Craig: great. Thanks so much for that. Yeah, so back to your question. you know, we want our older adults, our elders to be safe when they are heading into that arena or that area or that time of life when they have diminished physical capacity, when they have diminished cognitive capacity, which as we have said, not all older adults you know have those issues. But safe is one thing and taking away someone's civil rights is a whole other thing. And this is this can this happens frequently. I have sat through a number of elder abuse workshops in my program, and one of my teachers, the teacher who Is the instructor for the decision-making capacity assessment program, sits in lots of court cases, lots and lots and lots of them, where you know, family members or non-family members are trying to take advantage of an older adult Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm-hmm. Alison Laird Craig: and to get their money, to get their house, to put them away because they just don't want to deal with them anymore. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And so someone's capacity to skill level at make to evaluate somebody is extremely important. And in most graduate schools, I would say from what I hear and know, 99% of them, you learn a couple of capacity assessment tests, the slums and the mocha, and maybe one other. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, all the mocha. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And and that's it. But there's many, many, many more tests. And just understanding the nuance of what goes into evaluating and discerning someone else's capacity to make sound decisions about their lives. It it needs to be a much more in-depth training. and you know that Karin Tifour, who teaches that that training, always says Capacity for what? You know. So one thing that's really important to discern too is that a person may an older adult may make be making bad decisions. That's not the same as no capacity for making decisions, sound decisions. We all make bad decisions. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: I do. Alison Laird Craig: because that person may be sending money to a fake lover across the world, that's not necessarily a lack of decision-making capacity. That's just a bad decision. So those kinds of you know things happen and or you know, those kinds of evaluations need to be made. And I, you know, it's really a civil rights issue. And we all want to have our civil rights protected till the day we Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, Alison Laird Craig: die. Dr. Carmela Maxell: yes, yes, yes. And you know, I I have definitely experienced what you just said about and I I'm so grateful that you made that that you know you were able to distinguish those pieces that there you know it might have been a a a bad decision but that is not the same thing as being incapable of making decisions. Alison Laird Craig: Right. Dr. Carmela Maxell: And so we've got to be really careful. And I think this is also why we need more experts. We need more individuals that are invested in this in this work. And, you know, I I do want to give families some grace for what they don't know, but what they can know now, you know, through through the Elder Institute and and and through just information, I think a lot of this is fear, right? Some of it is because you're dealing with multiple pieces of Alison Laird Craig: Okay. Dr. Carmela Maxell: this person is aging, perhaps on top of that, there's some other vulnerabilities that they're dealing with. There's several appointments. I think it's it can be really overwhelming for families and at the same time operating out of a place of fear. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: is is not always the most helpful. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my father, I I mentioned earlier he died when he was ninety-three, and I was his primary caretaker at the end of his life. And I had no idea how to do that. We don't get you know, we don't get taught that we should. Somehow, Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, no. Alison Laird Craig: somewhere along the line, they should say this, you know, and I it's a crash course and you are stressed out. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yep. Alison Laird Craig: There's a ton of decisions to make, often very quickly. Dr. Carmela Maxell: huh. Alison Laird Craig: And no one has taught us, and it's a lot of bureaucracy you're dealing with, right? There's Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: a lot of bureaucracy, and and then there's the emotional component. This is my dad, you know, Dr. Carmela Maxell: yeah. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: or your mother or your aunt or whoever it may be. So yeah, it's a it's a thick. hot mess sometimes when you're when you're in this. So yes, fear is definitely confusion, fear, ignorance, meaning you don't know Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: what to do, is definitely part of it. And so that's why you bring in a professional evaluator. Because you Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes. Alison Laird Craig: you are not really capable of making those if you have the best interest of the older adult you know in your heart, then to bring in a professional evaluator is what you want to do. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, and I think, you know, back to the the idea of the social media era and and being such an information high society, Dr. Google could only help you so much. Having that connection, speaking to a professional. I know for me it's part of my ethics code, you know. I I have worked with elderly individuals, but that is also not my specialty as a mental health professional. And so I usually will try and track down someone who is. And sometimes there are unconventional means, right? Maybe it's not a clinician, perhaps it's somebody, there are attorneys that actually specialize. And I did not know that. Yeah, I actually did not Alison Laird Craig: Elder Logan. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: know that when it until it came time to to deal with this situation with my father who, you know, had dementia. And so I have a lot of compassion and I for for the families that are going through this and trying to figure things out. I have a lot of compassion for the elderly folks that are just also trying to figure things out. And then for us that are stuck in between trying to figure out, okay, how do we also bridge these gaps? So and the and then it's complicated further. so we can Alison Laird Craig: Yes. Dr. Carmela Maxell: talk about older adults as if they're this homogeneous group, but they're obviously not. And I'm you know, you have seen worked with individuals from you know, All different walks of life in in the elderly population. I've worked for folks across the lifespan, and there's all these intersecting variables, right? So what happens when aging intersects with other vulnerabilities or forms of marginalization? So some of the examples I'm gonna give for the audience: older adults experiencing homelessness, people re-entering society after incarceration, people living with serious mental illness. Substance use disorders, cognitive or developmental disabilities, being a part of the LGBTQ plus community as an older adult, veterans, racially Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: and culturally marginalized communities, people without family or traditional support systems, people living in poverty. Because I think w I'd be remiss if I was to say, yeah, we're just talking about aging, but no, it's it's aging and Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: it's it's aging plus. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, that list you just read off, we have had courses and trainings on every one of those topics because you know, older adults are highly marginalized and whenever there's intersectionality with any other highly marginalized aspect, you know, when there is intersectionality, well you're you're in double trouble, often. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Higher risk. Alison Laird Craig: yeah, higher risk and So I'm really glad you mentioned the older adults who are unsheltered and older adults who are in re-entry after incarceration. Because as Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: you know, Elder Education Institute is offering two workshop series this September called Older Adults on the Margins. I've been working on this these workshops for the last four years since I've been in this position. These are topics that are dear to my heart, in in particular re-entry and incarcerated Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: people. And do you want a little background on why I've the c why I'm interested in that? So when I Dr. Carmela Maxell: Please do it. Please do it. This will also be in the show notes, folks, because we want your attendance. We want you there. Alison Laird Craig: yeah, I and so when and after this I would like to go back to your questions about people how people participate and and register and all that. when I was in my 20s, I was living here in Seattle, Washington, and I heard about a workshop or a training series called Prison of You from the Inside that was put on by the UW's University of Washington's experimental college. And that piqued my interest. We would go into the Monroe Reformatory, which is was is a men's prison, and once a week, and we would be taught different about different aspects of prison life by a different person each week. And then after that six or eight-week series, we could continue. Going into the prison once a week with a group called the Prison Awareness Project. And the idea was to just have these men socialize with people from various walks of life. And I continued to do that for three years. And it was, you know, it was so heart opening and illuminating because we're I think most people in our culture think that people who are in prison are demons, monsters. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm, yeah, no. Alison Laird Craig: and some of the things they that some people do are very, very bad things. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm-hmm. Alison Laird Craig: But at the core of that person is a is a heart and a human and a a life Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: that created that person's behavior. And I Dr. Carmela Maxell: And unlikely trauma. Alison Laird Craig: learned that at a very early age. And so I became very interested in just incarcerated. populations. And so when I started doing this work at the Elder Education Institute, I thought, I wonder, you know, like I wonder what it is like for older adults, met you know, some of whom may have been incarcerated most of their life since they were children. What is it like to get out of prison after 50 years in prison or 30 years in prison? And I began contacting various people and having conversations. And it's just kind of taken me this while, due to various circumstances, to be able to offer this particular these this particular training along with the older adults who are unhoused and how to best support both of these groups of people. And Carmella, you were teaching or you were a guest teacher in the older adults in re-entry workshop, which I'm extremely happy about. those workshops, yeah, and I'm so happy to be able to Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Lovely to work with you. Alison Laird Craig: to be able to have these conversations because I don't think a lot of people think about these things. I contacted a group, a re-entry group here, who actually helps people in re-entry Find therapists who will work them and they give them these sort of basic trainings on what people might be experiencing post incarceration. And the woman I met with was like, I never thought about older adults in reentry. And Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah, yeah. Alison Laird Craig: I'm not blaming her, it's just like not in our consciousness because to get Dr. Carmela Maxell: Right. Alison Laird Craig: back to your question, it's an older adult and they've been in prison, so they don't exist. We shouldn't care about them. They're they're invisible. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: They don't matter to, you know, in general, to most Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes. Alison Laird Craig: people. So the workshops are the unsheltered, working with unsheltered older adults. training is going to be September 16th. And Carmella will put out that information and and link you to the website. Taught by Jam Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Yes. Alison Laird Craig: Staufinga, who is the clinical supervisor of sound generations. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Champs. Alison Laird Craig: geriatric regional assessment team and the older adults in re-entry and how to support them. Workshop is taught by Dr. Lena Compagna and Dr. Angela Morello, both who teach at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York City. And Dr. Carmela Maxell. And we will also have a gentleman with lived experience, an older adult who has been was incarcerated for a long time and has experienced re-entry. And that's on September 23rd. And so I I really hope that people will take the course if they engage with these two groups in any capacity, because Because they've been so marginalized and Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: maybe not thought about, we need to think about this. So we don't just continue this cycle of you know, people. I mean, those two groups often intersect, right? The people get released from prison, Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: they have nowhere to go, possibly, they end up on the street, and There are organizations like yours, Pioneer Human Services, who work with those people, but there's we need more people to work with these groups of people. We need more people who have training. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes. Alison Laird Craig: So the workshops are all on Zoom. All of our workshops are on Zoom. And we have Dr. Carmela Maxell: Accessible folks. Alison Laird Craig: accessible. We have trained people from all over the United States. the decision making capacity assessment program. We've trained people from sixteen different states in from all different professions. And so You know, and we're we don't offer webinars because we really like the interactive nature of our workshops so that there's conversation and questions, and you're not just sitting and listening to somebody speak. so yeah, I just am super passionate about these two workshops, and I hope I hope many people will will show up. And we are offering, we do charge a fee. That's how the our program is sustained, but There's scholarships, there's discounts, there's organizational discounts, and I just want as many people to to participate as possible. Dr. Carmela Maxell: And this is absolutely A, it's I am so blessed and honored to to be a part of this and to be speaking about it. For those of you who are unaware, I have a background where I've worked in corrections before in in a few capacities. And it was so enlightening being on that side of law enforcement and learning about the mental health needs just across the board of those who are incarcerated and more particularly for those who are of you know the elder cohort. It will be extremely informative. I want to see you guys there. Please support this cause because I think above that, I think for me one of the the the richest pieces is is the individual who was you know formerly incarcerated and hearing that story and how that individual is impacted. We need to hear these stories and And we need to hear about what could potentially work and what interventions we, not just as professionals, but also just as a community and as society, what we can actually do and contribute. Because we're all on the ship together, folks. We're own the ship together. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, I mean, every person that isn't cared for in our society, no matter what their situation is, impacts every single one of us. And we're either part of the Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: solution or we're part of the problem. You know, we can either say, instead Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: of pointing to the unsheltered people and saying, get rid of them, we can say, How can I help? Or the people Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: in re-entry, how can I help? Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. And I think we have to also stop waiting for waiting for the eleventh hour, right? Because w in the very beginning of this conversation we said that we don't think about aging. I think personally for me, as I've gotten older, I now think about aging differently because of my life experience. But for younger generations, it is important to start thinking about that. Who's gonna take care of you when you get older? w outside of of the natural aging process there are other circumstances that can have it that can deplete your support system and not that I would ever want that for anyone but do you have a plan in place? Do you have information that's not just like your 401k or your retirement, right? That's that's that's procedural. Do you do you know who's gonna support you? Do you know what resources are available to you? do you know what resources are available to your loved ones who may be aging alongside you? Those things are extremely important to think about now. We don't think about running a fire drill when there is a fire. Alison Laird Craig: Right. And we are at the eleventh hour now. So yeah. Or maybe Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: maybe even at the 12th at the top of the top of the clock, you know. Mm-hmm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: That's scary. That is really scary. So I want to ask two more questions before we wrap wrap this thing up. This has been extremely enlightening, and and I really do hope that people understand the seriousness of where we are at. and in essence, we are looking at just masses of people that for us, I'm gonna speak to my generation, the millennials. Look, y'all. We are not getting any younger. It's time that we start thinking about ourselves, our our legacies, that we, you know, that that we don't remain stagnant, that we think about a what we're leaving behind, that Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: we are engaged in in having conversations with our youth. We are responsible. We are absolutely responsible for the generations that that are, you know, under us. And that we're also informing as as clinicians, that this is an extremely important topic because we will be there. We will be there. We will be the the elder folks. And I know that none of you want to hear it, but we will be there. We will be situated on that throne and what happens when we get there. We cannot expect, we can't do the bystander effect thing. We actually have to get up and and we have to contribute. So you know we we talk about these these systemic barriers already for for elder adults and Some of the same things that we do for those who are not in the elder cohort when people are going through mental health struggles. We say, okay, find a therapist, ask for help, get services, advocate for yourself. But we know across the board, accessing care requires navigating a slew of systems. And so the audience is aware what are some of the systemic barriers older adults encounter when they're actually trying to get help? Alison Laird Craig: Well, I think one that's not necessarily systemic. I mean it you know kind of is, but is you know, I think the generation, especially the older boomers, are mm, some of them maybe More than some of them are reticent about asking for help. I sat in on a listening session, I actually facilitated it a few months ago about these issues, about what are the barriers for older adults in accessing mental health. And that was something that came up with some of the older adults who participated is I I don't know how to ask for help. I'm ashamed to ask for help. So there's there can be that kind of thing. I think younger adults you know are very much more aware of and and and want to engage in that sort of thing. So there's that. you know just that so much of mental health is is telehealth now. And you know, I I think that's a you know, I think I always get a little bit irritated when people talk about tech issues with older 'cause I'm an older adult and I'm pretty darn tech savvy. But I'm in my sixties. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And I think for people who are 85, you know, they may not be. And and that is a generalization, but I think it can it's definitely leaning into being true. and so that is a huge making appointments online. Email, everything, you know, having an appointment on online like this is can feel very awkward and even just setting it up. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: I think that to having health professionals, particularly physicians, there's so much ageism in in the healthcare world. And I think having people take you seriously. talking to you instead of the younger person who's with you. I mean just the ageism thing is is a huge barrier. And that Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: to me is the is the umbrella under under which all of this falls under. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. And you know, I I would probably also assume and and you know, in in when I was in private practice, one of the biggest reasons I I came into the mental health field outside of just wanting to help people in general and and because I'm a behaviorist, is was representation. Okay. So Alison Laird Craig: Mm, mm. Dr. Carmela Maxell: so as a woman of color, as a biracial woman, as a as a mother. I wanted to ensure that people who wanted that level of relatability had someone. and not that I can change the world all in one night, but I would I would also imagine that elder individuals also would like someone that they can relate to as well, whether it is someone of their age group or it's just something someone that actually understands or takes the time to understand their unique sense. sets of circumstances. that's really important and once again drives home the point of we need more professionals in this sect of the field to help and not just mental health professionals. You know, we we yeah, yeah. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. No, all people in all you know, we we get people from other industries in our workshops, we get people from the fire department and corrections, Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: more the fire department, but you know, anybody who's engaging with with an older scenarios where there's older adults possibly having a mental health crisis or It's not just health professionals, but yeah, physicians, nurses, occupational therapists, anybody who comes into contact and even CNAs, you know, people who are sort of are working solely with older adults perhaps, but don't have hardly any training, have very little training in the nuances of working with people. I am presenting at the Washington State Mental Health Summit in October, and my proposal is to, you know, we need more specialists, but we also Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm-hmm. Alison Laird Craig: need anybody who works in healthcare or in any scenario where they're working in with older adults to have what's what we're calling age-friendly fundamentals. And that is, you know, how do you discern a bladder infection created delirium from dementia? It often gets misdiagnosed. It's stuff like that. Basic Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: information that would be incredibly helpful in so many ways. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes, yes. I think too, one of the biggest pieces, you know, as I I witnessed this with my own father who, you know, who had dementia is how do you tease out real fear from from maybe some dementia based illusion or you know paranoia? And the truth of the matter is, you know, if if it's someone that you don't know and with dementia, with your cognitive ability declining, If it's somebody you don't know, whether it's due to dementia or you don't know this person, there's gonna be fear. And so I I've had to have the conversation of just you don't yell at the individual, you meet them where they're at. You you know, and and I think the the bottom line here for me and everything that you have said is we have got to bring the humanizing factor back into being human. And that is that's the moral of the story. You know what? I can't tell you how many t-shirts I need Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. That needs to be a t shirt. Dr. Carmela Maxell: to make for several things. but yes, bring bring bring the humanizing back. I mean, elder individuals are humans, they're human beings, they've lived lives, they've raised children, they have fought the good fight, they have helped to pave the way for the generations that are here now. And It is our responsibility as a society to help them to you know, to retain that that sense of dignity. Yes. Alison Laird Craig: Mm-hmm. And to celebrate that they that we have made it. It's like if you make Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Alison Laird Craig: it through life, life is rough, full of danger, full of, you know, all s unpredictability and strife. And to make it to live whatever state you're in, to have made it to whatever age you are is a feat. And I think that should be celebrated instead of treated as a burden and a problem. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Yes. Well my last question to you before we close, because I feel like this could be like a ninety part series. I feel this about most topics because there's there's always just so much, right, that that we could talk about because this is so important. So this is why folks the continuation to this conversation is will be in the show notes. So come to these workshops. c come come participate, learn. implement. My c my last question to you Allison is as we've talked about so many different things, right? About what what is not going well, areas of growth, professional needs, needs for the elderly. This can this can sort of bum you out. And I know in in in working in recovery, working in mental health, there are so many pieces that are like, wow, this this can be really exhausting. But What gives you hope about the future of aging and elder care in general? Alison Laird Craig: Well, th I thank you for pointing out that, you know, this can be these topics can be very, very heavy. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And and that's sad that talking about older adults is actually, you know, is it can be heavy and a lot of the workshops I sit and facilitate sit through and facilitate are they really heavy. But Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: I am heartened By these kinds of conversations. And so I really appreciate your thoughtfulness in wanting to bring this conversation to more people. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And you know, it despite the fact that there are there's attrition in gerontology and that there are not enough people to work with them, there are really great people doing really great work and research. and I I'm just hoping that that that spreads, you know, we just have to figure out a way to make people excited about this. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. Alison Laird Craig: And I hear great stories too, you know, and I w doing this work has really changed my whole feeling about getting older. It's enabled me to really just feel comfortable in my my skin at at my age. And that makes me hopeful. That's you know what I'd like to help everybody achieve is I want you to feel comfortable in your skin as you you are what you're what nature intended for you to be at this, you know, whatever stage of life. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yeah. I just appreciate the work that you do and I say this as a as a millennial. I say this as an individual who cares, who is in the mental health field, who will work tirelessly to bring light and attention to important topics and situations like this. Thank you for everything that you do. Thank you for everything that you have contributed and will continue to contribute. And it is on my generation and the generations after mine to continue the legacy of this work. So thank you for paving the way for us. Alison Laird Craig: Yeah, well thank you very much for saying that. I appreciate it very much. And I feel the same way about the work you do. You Dr. Carmela Maxell: Thank you. Alison Laird Craig: you do such important work in so many realms and you know you're somebody who gives me hope. Good people give me hope. Dr. Carmela Maxell: And you know what? yes, and and that's how I that's how I feel, and I and and it's it's like a silly as this sounds, I say it's it's like a a nice bowl of soup, right? I love soup. So it's a nice bowl of just hearty Alison Laird Craig: Yeah. Dr. Carmela Maxell: soup. And we need more soup. We need more soup in the world. We need more soup in the world. Yes. Alison Laird Craig: Indeed, more soup. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Yes. Well, once again. Thank you for having this conversation with me and for the work you're doing through the Elder Education Institute. I think one of the biggest takeaways from today's conversation is that aging doesn't erase someone's identity. Yeah. Older adults are not Alison Laird Craig: Right. Thank you. Dr. Carmela Maxell: one population with one set of needs. They are people carrying entire lifetimes, relationships, losses, cultures, trauma, resilience, mistakes, accomplishments, identities, and stories, and good care. Can't simply ask, how do we keep this person safe? It also has to ask, how do we help this person continue to live with dignity, autonomy, connection, and meaning? And to learn more about Allison, Sound Generations, and the Elder Education Institute, please check the episode description in the show notes for the links and resources. And until next time, my friends, please remember, stay rooted in who you are and keep rising into who you're becoming. Take care. Alison Laird Craig: Thank you. Dr. Carmela Maxell: Mm-hmm.